User talk:YuriZahard

Remember to sign please! Welcome to pvxwiki-- Relyk  talk  00:08, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Lookie there, someone fixed their welcome page :D.Anvil God 00:15, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

If you're confident in the quality of the article, feel free to move it into testing (using the Untested-Testing template). I don't want to rush it through if you don't feel it's ready, given how much attention its talk has been given. Aonsephonie 18:37, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm still hoping for somebody to post some concrete and viable changes to it in it's talk page so leaving it for now. And I still need half a week before I can actually see the vetting pages :P YuriZahard 20:59, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

PvX:1RV
Really should read up on policies mate. Anvil God 02:15, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * What's wrong with removing a welcome message? Sorry for this clutter though Yuri. Don't worry, all I have on my Talk page is useless crap too. Dzjudz sig.pngtalk 02:23, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Because it was my welcome message :). Anvil God 02:24, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't worry Anvil, PvX:YAV :D Dzjudz sig.pngtalk 02:25, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I was obviously acting in good faith. PvX:AGF. Anvil God 02:28, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * And you should stop hiding behind them while behaving like an idiot. Try to keep to the point and stuff, you know? Instead of filling up the discussion page with useless welcomes the size of a mountain stroking your big epeen of how cool you are hanging around here acting tough, while pretending to be of importance? For instance stop trolling about using four or five superior runes and explain why you like or don't like them on the 7 hero melee build? You contribute jack shit but to piss people submitting actual builds off. This is why I think wikis are total crap for the most part, because they're like that TV-program on discovery channel where the guy that denies there ever being such a thing as a holocaust is put up as an equal to the professor which has spent the majority of his life researching it. Or someone who has 7 completely useless builds on his page to someone who spends a lot of time discussing, researching and improving builds and which knows pretty much every skill in the game in and out just by name. So in short, i'd like my discussions on the point and clutter free. Preferably troll free too. Sure, keep the welcomes there but remove the big duplicate window YuriZahard 02:36, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Cool story.PvX:NPA Anvil God 02:45, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * http://www.gwpvx.com/News/20080512 Using superior runes on all characters equal a 10-15% damage increase on heroes who are damage dealers and whose skills are heavily invested in one attribute. Otherwise, it'd be a 10-15% heal increase, or duration/effectiveness increase on enchantments. Is it worth that 12.5% less health? HELLZ YES (I usually always run 2-4 sup runes on all characters :D)Anvil God 15:42, 22 April 2011 (UTC) That's the most relevant post you've had on the discussion page since I posted my build. And its not very relevant at all. Other then that you've kept spamming welcome pages and policy warnings acting play police. YuriZahard 02:55, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Ironically, some people like to play police because its funny as hell to piss people off. Anvil God 03:04, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Anvil stop trolling Yuri stop taking the bait. Are we done here? -- Toraen TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png|link=User:Toraen]] 03:06, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

One welcome template is all that could be considered needed (for the various links to helpful things it has). Additional templates are spam, please don't clog up userpages with them. I was going to restore the welcomes and the first template, but effort and I got EC'd anyway. None of it was that important. -- Toraen TheJanitor 02:50, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you, i agree, and i'll restore the first one myself. YuriZahard 02:55, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Just FYI
Coming off as strong as you have so far basically makes everyone dislike you from the start. It'll do a lot for you if you actually listen to criticism without being an ass about it. Also, if you name a build after yourself, you'll get the fucking shit kicked out of you. That pretty much instantly labels you as one of the many noobs who think they're l33t and end up running off crying when their piece-of-crap build gets trashed. Basically, you probably don't want to turn out to be someone like me, unless you enjoy being a fag. -- Jai . -  05:25, April 27 2011 (UTC)
 * With all due respect, a few shitheads disliking me doesn't really matter at all. If someone can't play effectively with superior runes, suggests using orders with a single melee character or wants to stuff a paragon hero in to any kind of team and is incapable of utilizing body-blocks in an effective manner I consider them to be bad players. I consider them to be the kind of players that could never beat me nor even compete, and so I don't give a shit what they think either. When I play the game I pull more mobs, I kill faster, I move faster, I wait less, and I do it better. And if you want me to promote you from shithead-status prove to me that you're on the level. Come up with some viable arguments and act professional, in other words be more like Toraen and less like Anvil God. Troll's deserve no respect and none shall be given YuriZahard 05:45, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Lol. I'm going to have fun watching you implode, tbh. You might be as good of a player as you say you are (though I honestly doubt it), but that really matters little here (and little in general, because GW is loleasy). PvX is about builds, and so far the builds you've posted here have been quite mediocre. For instance, bringing SS nowadays is just stupid because unless you micro it, and even then it's not going to do much. Bringing crap like that when you could be fitting in another copy of Splinter Weapon is just stupid.
 * Have fun getting yourself flamed for everything you do here. -- Jai . -  05:55, April 27 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, GWPVE is loleasy. You could simply put add a prot monk and two healing monks, a SoS and a SOGM ritualist a minion master and a Searing Flames spamming Necromancer to your team and you'd be capable of completing the entire game in HM apart from DoA HM and possibly UW HM though I actually think you'd be able to complete UW given the right tactics. And while SS is as you say not very good, the necromancer in question does a very good job regardless of his elite. This far nobody has been able to present a viable alternative at least, and no "Orders" or "Commandogon" isn't what you'd call viable alternatives no, they suck. It is however possible that a Me\N or Mo\N smite would be. YuriZahard 06:23, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Do note that I said "orders, among other things." An Orders probably would deal more than SS, tbh, whether or not it's the best option overall. For your build specifically, you'd be better off putting the smite on the SoS, making the necro more defensive (just use like PoD and Enfeebling blood, the rest being Resto), and dropping the smite for something like an Illusion mesmer. That's just at a glance, but it's something simple that would improve both the defense and offense of the team. -- Jai . -  06:34, April 27 2011 (UTC)
 * A varuation of this build: http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Team_-_RoJ_Heroway complete Raiasu Palace HM in about 8 minutes thirty seconds (EFGJack did this). My build managed to do so in 8 minutes 47 seconds, which is slower but still highly respectable. Jeydra's Airway did it in 8 minutes 10 seconds which is just crazy. I suggest you try getting below 13 minutes with your racway-approach. Personally I imagine your first try will be around 15-16 minutes and that you possibly will get it down to 13 but no further. That's in short, the limit to how fast your build gets. YuriZahard 06:50, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Yuri-you can't both ask other people to respect you and take the position "Everyone that disagrees with me is an unreasonable idiot." It makes you come across as just another noob with an oversized ego, and guarantees that no one will take you seriously. And about the Necro, I already explained why PoD would be better than SS on the build's talk page, but everyone decided to ignore that and talk about runes.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  06:43, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * PoD has a lower damage potencial in short and less usefulness in general, that said it's a viable option for sure and nothing wrong with adding it as a variation. And I never said everyone was an idiot, some, like yourself, actual submits viable alternatives. Hence why I asked you to submit some viable bars a few days ago once you made your comment, something that probably got lost to you in the rune discussion. YuriZahard 06:51, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The problem with SS is that once the target dies, the damage from it is lost. Heroes prioritize your target, and melee kill so fast that most of the time, SS only does a pulse or 2 of damage before ending. And enchantment removal is very useful in many areas, especially when enemies carry prot.  Even when they don't, it deals it's damage instantly and in a large packet.  At 14 curses, it takes 3 hits from SS to equal PoD's damage.  If SS does manage to get in multiple hits, it causes scatter, especially in HM, which means it's damage potential isn't much better than PoD's, even under ideal situations.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  07:18, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Just add it as a variation man, I'm not saying SS is perfect. Never did. I'm saying I prefer the damage potential of SS and the lower cool-down over PoD. Either is good and that's the two viable options you have for the build. YuriZahard 07:24, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Where is the rune discussion they talk about in this lovely page? i'd love to look into that... and 8 min 47 sec to do RAIASU palace is...great?? i didnt know raiasu(?) palace was such an important mission... a few days ago i got past there on my sin, to finish factions and get shiros knives, i dont know how long i took, but that is some very easy shit, really, why is it so important?

Oh, never mind that last post, i found the rune talk... ill move to that one now07:29, 27 April 2011 (UTC)enormous
 * There was a build comparison thread in the hero sections on guru. Raiasu Palace was picked as a testing ground and for some reason ended up being the only testing ground to receive a decent amount of submitted times. In other words it's the only mission where you know the times of a multitude of different people and builds post 7 heroes which makes for easy comparisons of good vs bad completion times. Simply put, if a build does less then 8 minutes 10 it's the fastest one in the game. If it does below 10.30 it should be considered very fast. Over that and it's nothing special at all, just another average build that cant compete with the meta. YuriZahard 07:36, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Seems like a weird basis for comparison-to complete that mission fast, you just run past half the stuff. I'd think it would make more sense to use a vanquish.  I'm curious what the Airway you mentioned is though-never heard of that one before.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  08:24, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * http://img88.imageshack.us/i/gw065j.jpg/ despite claims of the contrary, I believe this build only to be effective for a primary Elementalist and possibly a ranger because you want a build that naturally moves to the same location as your other elementalists, if you use it with say a SoS ritualist it's hard to calculate the right range and where your heroes will decide to stand. Not impossible mind you, but it takes away the focus from simply just watching the battlefield and pushing some buttons. That said there is no need for said Elementalist to be an air magic one. That's not the final build that was used for the 8.10 time though, that build included a Avatar of Dwayna dervish and some other stuff but apart from the healer it's same thing. YuriZahard 08:34, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * And on the basis of using that mission as a comparison, I think it's a pretty good one actually. The mobs hit hard enough that you cannot easily skip them (you HAVE to kill the majority of the mobs in order to move on, along with the bosses to complete the mission itself) and there's only one obvious path you can take. That said, it's fucking not perfect and that's why I withdrew all of my own results from it. That said a vanquish isn't perfect either, nor is that mission, nor is anything. If you want it scientifically perfect you would have to do the mission with 50 different people and 50 different team builds, and each of those people would have to submit times for each of those team builds. And the times would vary greatly. Jeydra's Airway would do extremely good times for primary Elementalists. EFGJack's Rojway would do extremely good times in the hands of good players which are good at flagging heroes and executing a little micromanagement along with effectively bodyblocking the enemy in place. My 7 heroes for melee players would probably beat EFGJack's build in the hands of inexperienced players and be beat by it while each build was played by experienced players. YuriZahard 08:41, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Funny observation
Stop being baited by anvil god, Jai gets off on yelling at new users cause he's bored, and no one cares how fast you can do raisu palace. If you haven't noticed already, we don't take the game or wiki too seriously. The funny thing about completion times is the lower the completion time, the higher the ratio of player skill to effectiveness of the build. The fall back of the rating system here on the wiki is it's mostly subjective rather than objective unfortunately.-- Relyk  talk  08:51, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Haha, I do like that observation xD Straight to the core of the problem YuriZahard 09:05, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Pretty much. -- Jai . -  12:49, April 27 2011 (UTC)
 * One correction, though. I "get off" on people I think are retarded or noobs. If there is a new user that's actually trying to be agreeable and stuff, I'm just as helpful as the next guy. General rule: If you talk to me like a fag, I'll talk back like a fag. -- Jai . -  18:34, April 27 2011 (UTC)
 * then people must talk to you like fags a lot. -- Brandnew. 19:17, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * It's PvX, what do you expect? -- Jai . -  19:33, April 27 2011 (UTC)

You seem to think
That the average GW player can play the game at a moderately high level. This really isn't the case. Most people in GW either can't or cba to micro their heroes or tank/ball mobs. I just had a long argument with my guild, full of people who do SC's and such (i.e. average or above-average players), that insist that Discordway is still pretty much the best you can play. If you try to tell those people to play a build like RoJway, they're just gonna fail and end up saying that the build's crap. Stuff like this is simpler to play, and while it's not the absolute fastest thing you can run, it's really tough to fail with it and it still finishes stuff in a very reasonable amount of time. That makes it far better suited to the average GW'er than RoJway or Airway, which is generally the kind of person PvX caters to (see Sabway, Discordway, Physway, etc.). -- Jai . -  06:42, May 5 2011 (UTC)
 * Honestly I'd still like to store the higher-tier stuff for those that want to reference it, even if most players can't run it effectively/at all (ex: we do have DoA Trenchway even though no PuG has a prayer of being able to use it). Discord can be meta but we can still vote good on it rather than great (that's why the meta tag lets you specify the rating). -- Toraen TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png|link=User:Toraen]] 06:59, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not saying we shouldn't keep the higher level stuff. I'm just saying that downrating this build because it's not the optimal setup for speed is stupid IMO. That build is pretty damn close to the fastest you'll get while still cspacing. -- Jai . -  07:14, May 5 2011 (UTC)
 * The basis for the build is very standard and it's proven to work. AOTL minion master, Ineptitude + Panic, SoS + SoGM, done. Thats the ACTUAL player support build. And then someone has added two filler character's in it aka Paragon and Curse necro. The paragon adds defense which in short, is a bad kind of defense and is not needed, it also has very bad DPS (40 or so at a max over time). And the curse necromancer does, as many people seem to point out where ever it is used. Have highly questionable performance. The paragon is used to spread splinter weapon but in short, it is very slow at doing so. And the Razah as Mesmer option requires extremely good aggro control, way more then what the average player will display, to work.
 * So in short, I think that build separates it self from the "standard" 7 hero build by only two characters and I think those characters are bad ones. YuriZahard 10:46, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, the curser is the main healer in the build. What would you like to replace it with? Either no healer (bad idea, you will die) or a full healer (full resto necro or UA healer)? In the first case you will suffer unless you have extremely good aggro control, in the second case you have even less offense and support... In short, the curser is not a 'filler', it is the primary healer with actual support (Enfeebling Blood is great). The paragon is what seems to be your main point. A RoJ monk is already in the variants (tbh, it only adds RoJ for real damage, and it's a scatterbeam that fires once every 20 seconds, the para will likely do much more, both offensively and support-wise), I don't know what you want to replace it with otherwise... (likely because there isn't much or anything to replace it with). I'm not seeing suggestions here. Dzjudz sig.pngtalk 11:10, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Better filled out explanation on the talk page of the build added just now. YuriZahard 11:12, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Challenge
Here's a little challenge for you. I'd like to see two hero builds to add to one of these two teams: Team #1:

Team #2:

I'm expecting a combination of two of the following builds: RoJ, Resto Necro, WoH/UA. Maybe you'll surprise me with spectacular 20% faster builds though. Keep in mind there are no more mesmers or rits to work with and stuff like Anthem of Envy triggers on all spirits in the second build. talk 14:24, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Not gonna spend too much time on this but for the first one. Simply put i'd switch the SoS to SoGM and play SoS myself and add in some PVE skills such as Pain Inverter\Summon Spirits\Vampirism. The SoGM i'd switch to \P and add fall back to it and I'd also use Fall Back on player bar most of the time. After that I'd either keep or switch AoTL to discord and add two additional discord heroes for healing, remove the Curse skills on the discordway necro and add another putrid bile.. The discordway bars I'd use would be rather standard apart from that.
 * For the second set of bars, add 2x RoJ, remove smite skills from the SoGM and add fall back to it in most cases (any melee char or a smite monk primary). Or switch the panic to Panic \ Resto similar to the Human Rit Spiritway approach and then add 2x Air Elementalists and play with a ranger or elementalist myself with EBSOH and a discord caller approach. That's on the spot adjustments though, I realize you feel offended that I think the bars in the current build is close to trash. But it's not my job to spend hours to cater every possible scenario in order to satisfy you either. The EBSOH \ Air elementalist approach would probably also work great with a paragon primary. YuriZahard 15:15, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, because every profession is going to play as spirit spammer, great point. Also, Discord is mostly useless with 7 heroes now, why are you arguing for it? And stop fucking talking about two RoJ's or two Air ele's. This build is for the same kind of people that fail ZMissions, so they're not going to be running speed clear-style builds for general PvE. -- Jai . -  15:31, May 5 2011 (UTC)
 * It's not that I feel offended, it's that I don't like bs arguments like "this is trash and could be 20% faster with two other builds" without actually providing those two other builds to back up such a vapid statement. For the SoS build, of course you would add another meta/great bar if you play something from the team-build yourself (e.g. SoS or Panic), that goes without saying. The same can be said for any build (like the RoJway build, it has an SoS). Fall Back on the player severely diminishes build possibilities. You are already tied to 5 slots because of 3 pve skills. Add SoS, Bloodsong, Painful Bond, Spirit Siphon, that leaves you one slot, not to mention you need to spec in Command as well. In essence, you are saying to add 2 Discord restos to the first build, with SoGM to replace the SoS if you play SoS yourself. Keep in mind Discord is single target that needs to really be spammed on recharge to have any DPS at all. In the second build you are fine with 3 prots and 2-3 heals? Good luck with that without severe aggro control. Switching the Panic to resto will give up a lot of (aoe) damage. It seems to me you have not really tested the build and are just making suggestions that you have also never put into practice. Dzjudz sig.pngtalk 15:34, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The dude's just a scrub, it's probably best to ignore him at this point. -- Jai . -  15:37, May 5 2011 (UTC)
 * Jai, I never said every profession should play as a spirit spammer. If anything I only condone of Ritualists doing it in the first place. No other profession should ever spam spirits, period. So if you read my post, you'd see that I don't at all condone of a One Shoe Fits all approach but instead support a Tailored Shoe Is Always Better approach.
 * And Dzjudz, every single one of my adaptions are very well tested and even pitted up against each other. I refer you to the Spirits Discord Minions challenge on the guild wars guru forums. RoJ-way proved to be about 15% faster then SDM, Airway more then 20% faster. And 20% faster means the same as S\D\M beeing 20% slower. The S\D\M with triple mesmers and primary rit approach is however one I myself have managed to get 11-12% faster then any of the pre Razah change S\D\M approaches playing as a primary ritualist. Even if I assume you're build to be faster then S\D\M in it's old form, which I don't really do. It's still not tailored enough to compete at the top. And therefore I cant fucking stand it, because that build getting perfect ratings all over the board when it's in fact very easy to beat is the same as that build being the one that I have to see posted 10 times a week to random nubs in my alliance asking for some fantastic build that works for all classes. No such thing as a fantastic build for all classes, exists! YuriZahard 16:07, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Dude, just stop. Like we've tried to tell you over and over, we're trying to make a general build that will work for the majority of situations, for multiple classes. Obviously it will not be the optimum setup, but it doesn't need to be because it's still fast enough to finish something quickly, and defensive enough to survive almost anywhere. The vast majority of players would be perfectly happy with any build that gets them through the dungeon or gets Master's in the mission, hence why people still use Discord.
 * Please, answer this question and this question only: Why are you against a general PvE build that is setting out to accomplish what Sabway did for years, which is to create a build that simply works? -- Jai . -  16:32, May 5 2011 (UTC)
 * Is it wrong to expect more from a 7 hero build then a 3 hero build? If a 7 hero build could complete a mission in exactly the same time as a 3 hero build + henchmen, would that warrant a great rating? Cause I could do that with a build carrying two open slots while hauling a rubberduck in reverse thru the mailbox. So stop complaining about the fact that I demand more from a 7 hero build then a 3 hero build, it's just silly. Even if you cut the Paragon and the Curse necromancer from the team and leave the two slots open. You'd still be capable of beating sabway + 4 henchmen. YuriZahard 17:40, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, please read this. -- Jai . -  16:45, May 5 2011 (UTC)
 * Both of you stop trolling yuri-- Relyk 17:03, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I stopped trolling in the last comment. It was a genuine question. -- Jai . -  17:20, May 5 2011 (UTC)
 * Sweet story Jai, but any of the options I listed would give that little brother the exact same ability to complete the entire game presuming they were the right adaption based on his class. Probably they would do it faster, even with a ten year old behind the wheels. YuriZahard 17:46, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I was under the impression that PvX favored bars that were more effective in general usage than ones that could work better, but required more specialized tactics. Same reason why all the SC builds are the easy/safe versions, rather than record run bars.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  18:00, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I've kept tactics out of this discussion. But I won't be keeping player profession out of it. An elementalist should simply not be running the same bars as a warrior runs. Safer\Easier bars I can condone of, choosing a set of bars not suited to your class because GWPVX tells you that is the way to go, I can't. YuriZahard 18:02, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * So you're opposed to builds being generalized because they're generalized? Certain builds working better for certain classes is the entire point of the variants.  Add to those if you think generalization is a problem.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  18:09, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm opposed to a generalized build being rated as great when a specialized build is significantly better. It's almost like making a generalized speed clear build capable of completing DoA\UW and FoW because then all players can play the exact same characters in the same way in all areas instead of having to use different builds or different characters to complete different tasks. Doesn't that sound like a great idea? Then we wont have to have both manlyway and mes-spike we can just cut all the crap and use mes-spike only because it's better? You might think what I'm saying now is silly. But I think what you're saying is just as silly YuriZahard 18:15, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Pointless analogy. The build is tagged for PvE General, where the entire point is to clear everything with the same character, the exact opposite of SCs.  And it does that very well.  Though with Manly vs. Mes spike-look at FoW.  Mes is faster, and allows 3 Terras much more efficiently.  However, Manly is Meta, because it's damn near impossible to fuck up.  More relevantly, Sab/Discordway were never the fastest 3 hero builds, but it didn't stop them from being Meta, because they were safe, easy, and effective, and left room for variation in the player build.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  18:33, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The builds you gave are very well tested? What? I guess you are referring to this guru thread, which only tested that 'Airway' build in Raisu Palace with significant micro'ing. And compared to Discordway might I add. Dzjudz sig.pngtalk 18:38, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Nobody has been able to create anything faster. Not me, not you, not anyone else. I'd say that's pretty darn well tested. YuriZahard 18:42, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * You consider running a build with significant micro in only one area in the game sufficient testing for a general HM PvE build? Please. That's like saying a DoA speedclear build is a great general HM PvE build... Dzjudz sig.pngtalk 18:47, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * All the micro it needs is calling the targets. Microing fall back is optional, I don't bother. It's no more then discordway. YuriZahard 19:01, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

My vote on 7 hero player support
It stays, so stop whining. Find another idiot to blindly vote it 5\5 if you're so convinced it's awesome. This is just getting tedious so I wont be making any further comments on the subject. Trolling will be reported YuriZahard 19:01, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, the build has changed and right now it stands as an unfinished version of the build. If the new changes settle in then build will be reviewed and vote possibly changed. YuriZahard 19:08, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Just to note, you don't get to say if your vote stays or not.-- Relyk 19:44, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh but I do, because the vote is made on a solid basis and any questions that anyone had about why I made my vote has been answered. As far as I know, admins only remove votes if I choose not to reply on the questions and solid arguments are made about why the basis of my vote is incorrect. YuriZahard 19:57, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Not really. It doesn't really matter how much you explain your reasoning if it's flawed from the start. There's no longer the paragon in the team, and it's assumed that a generalized build (again, similar to Sab or Discord) will be slower than more specialized and/or offensive builds. -- Jai . -  20:07, May 5 2011 (UTC)
 * And the current revision is if nothing else even worse then the previous one. I'm referring to the completely gimped version of the curse necromancer, the changes made to the SoGM and the splinter weapon on the SoS ritualist without any melee character in the team. If you are really going to replace the Command Paragon with a RoJ hero the obvious choice is to get yet another RoJ hero as you now don't need the healing provided by the N\Rt PoD. YuriZahard 20:14, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * No.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  20:17, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Are you fucking blind? The fucking N/Rt has to stay there to fucking heal. -- Jai . -  20:31, May 5 2011 (UTC)
 * A single smite monk to support the current SoS\resto would be questionable but would work with good aggro management. Dual smite monks leaves a ton of overhead so no, it doesn't. YuriZahard 20:40, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Good aggro management is something that is not assumed to be done in a general PvE build. 60 point heals from the smites is not going to compensate for not having a single dedicated healing role in the team, or at least not when the build is designed to be essentially foolproof. -- Jai . -  21:03, May 5 2011 (UTC)
 * Our two active admins, toraen and phen, don't remove votes unless they're blatantly wrong or there is consensus on the matter. They do this both because they only casually play PvE and to avoid upsetting users. Life and Athrun are considered our PvE admins, they have final say on votes and such; Athrun is inactive and life cbf to police the pve section constantly. I'm not going to go into the other reasons for it or the validity of your vote.-- Relyk 21:26, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * This guy is obviously deluded in how general PvE builds should work for the masses. Though I agree that the build with RoJ is worse than with the commandagon. But apparently other pvx'ers don't agree with that point. Dzjudz sig.pngtalk 21:27, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Just because I don't agree on voting crap up as great? Or because of I know that 2x RoJ leaves enough overhead room to correct nearly any mistake you may make? Last week or so I've been playing RoJ-way primarily and 2x smite + SoS\Resto is plenty for every area in the game apart from the following: Duncan in Slaver's Exile HM, DoA and UW HM. That's it, that's the entire list of areas where you should change the build around and run a ST-rit instead of SoGM along with an additional N\Rt instead of a minion master... That's it that's all. And if you don't believe me, then I guess we know who's spewing untested BS. YuriZahard 21:48, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I've run plenty of stuff with just 2 heals in the entire team, for example Vloxen Excavations HM with 0 deaths with this (old build, but you get the point). Shelter is a major relief of pressure though. General players might not fare as well. Dzjudz sig.pngtalk 21:51, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * People aren't saying RoJway and such are ineffective Yuri, they're saying that most people can't play without additional direct healing. Two smiters is plenty of overhead for players skilled at the game, but most can't cope with just Smiter's Boon bonus to supplement two spot heals. You've voted trash on a build designed for such players, which is taken to mean you think it should not be stored at all, and that's what's causing this all this drama. -- Toraen <font face="Courier New" color="DarkGoldenrod">TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png|link=User:Toraen]] 21:58, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * After testing the build in question, and managing to over-pull as much as 30 mobs at the same time in SoO (undeads so holy damage gives a clear cut advantage) my conclusion is that there is enough overhead even for a complete idiot. Because I really do make some incredibly stupid pull's at times and 2x RoJ is enough. Not always keeping everyone alive but enough to clear up the mess and avoid a wipe. And the reason I'm voting trash is well explained though halfway irrelevant with the current changes to the build. YuriZahard 22:04, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * So what you're saying is that undead explode quickly to holy damage? I had no idea. Life Guardian 22:07, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm saying you wont have any trouble double pulling groups at all, rarely any trouble triple pulling and possibly you would feel the need for a N\Rt healer if you manage to quadruple pull groups. Which BTW is rather hard to do even if you intentionally aim to do so. YuriZahard 22:13, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not entirely sure id run 2 rojs on the same team to begin with. I actually read the discussion now, and all i have to say is that 1 hybrid healer(i usually use SoS/Resto) is enough for almost every area of the game, assuming you're relatively proficient with heroes. If you add more than that, most people should be able to survive fine, but theres still a rather large portion of the gws playerbase that can't do pve without a shitton of extra healing and mitigation. It really depends on which portion of the gw playerbase we want to appeal to, because it is extremely difficult to appeal to everyone. For example, a build with 3 hybrid restos would appeal to the less skilled half of players, but would be completely useless to the other half, while a build with one hybrid healer would appeal to the more skilled half, but would be completely useless to the less skilled half. Even between those builds, the basis would be the same, making it difficult to justify a separate page, and placing both on the same page would make reading more difficult for the casual visitor. Life Guardian 22:24, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Maybe we should have 2 build pages: Build:Team - 7 Heroes Elite and Build:Team - 7 Heroes Casual :D. Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 22:27, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Then you have conflicting opinions from different people on whats the best option for each build, etc etc. Theres no right answer to this dilemma. Life Guardian 22:31, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I was being facetious. But I think the best solution is now in the works. Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 22:33, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * A build for elite areas retroactively covers casual, the best solution is to stick in a bunch of optionals and variant builds. It's ugly but it works.-- Relyk 22:39, 5 May 2011 (UTC)