Build talk:P/W Imbagon/Archive 1

Discussion
This wins PvE. With a few changes (attributes (11Le, 11SM, 8Co), rez, no ToF), I use this all the time. - Krowman    21:03, 6 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Yeah my friend runs it in hard mode, we have 3 Savannah Heat eles and an SF to ensure burning, we never need a res because nobody dies =). - Skakid9090 21:06, 6 July 2007 (CEST)
 * You know, I can't think of anyone dieing while I ran this either. Some PUG genius called me a noob for using Focused Anger though, gg. - [[Image:Kowal.jpg|15px]] Krowman    21:11, 6 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Yeah Krow Man, Incoming is SO much better. Readem (talk *pvxcontribs ) 04:08, 7 July 2007 (CEST)

Build could definately use a skill icon variants list. Shireen sysop  21:15, 6 July 2007 (CEST)
 * How do I do that? - Skakid9090 21:23, 6 July 2007 (CEST)

{skill icon|Name Skill} and add at lesat 2 sets of 3 chains or whatever for the option sets. Would make this look a lot less like a stub. Use -{{ on it though (2 instead of one). Its gonna show up with text next to it, so I suggest you bullet them. A list of 5 or six skills would help flesh this out quite a bit. Somewhere else (shadow prison sin) there is an example of how to do mini skill bars as well. Shireen sysop  21:25, 6 July 2007 (CEST)

Those are not needed. Readem (talk *pvxcontribs ) 21:34, 6 July 2007 (CEST)
 * it looks cool anyway =P - Skakid9090 21:38, 6 July 2007 (CEST)
 * I created redirects on GWiki to the proper skill pages. Note that they use double quotation marks while you uploaded the pics with single ones. Not a problem anymore. - [[Image:Kowal.jpg|15px]] Krowman   21:40, 6 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Thanks. I fixed it. - Skakid9090 21:58, 6 July 2007 (CEST)

People need to look through the vetted sections before posting their builds. This build is the same as Archive:P/R Critical Spear, except it uses the new skills. Add those new skills to the variants of P/R crit spear, and this build is completely trashed. --8765 23:12, 6 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Uh, no. There is a 4 skill similarilty and this one is used more defensively than offensively. - Skakid9090 23:22, 6 July 2007 (CEST)
 * focused anger+aggressive refrain+gfte=mass energy for whatever you want to do after. The foundation of both builds are identical. Whether you choose to use a spear attack or another shout, makes the builds just variants of each other. "Save yourselves!" is somewhat unnecessary since "they're on fire" and "there's nothing to fear" together make for crazy damage reduction. --8765 03:53, 7 July 2007 (CEST)
 * it's not enough. that build doesnt do shit it spams GFTE and does nothing with the insane amount of energy it provides. this build provides a party-wide ~60% damage reduction and +100 armor. it was designed for hard mode, where even with 60 redux you can still get hit by a boss spirit rift/shatterstone/ect. for 200 dmg. This one is a lot more defensive and any team would be begging for this para. the foundation for all sword warrior builds on the wiki but they all perform different functions. over-merging is bad. - <font color="#336666">Skakid9090 03:59, 7 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Ok. So it's not enough. Show us something better, don't just give unproductive complaints, but contribute some solutions too. Yamagawa

This build makes vanquishing anywhere a joke. -Punjab 07:20, 9 July 2007 (CEST)

WTB New name lol. <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 08:14, 9 July 2007 (CEST)

me too i couldnt think of anything =P - <font color="#336666">Skakid9090 20:31, 9 July 2007 (CEST)

How about Focused PvE Paragon :)? <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 20:51, 9 July 2007 (CEST)

why bother have "they're on fire!" why anthem of flame is much better? kullwarrior
 * Should be paired with a teammate who can spread burning, such as with Searing Flames or Mark of Rodgort. more reduction the better imo - <font color="#336666">Skakid9090 02:48, 11 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Because it isn't? <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 02:48, 11 July 2007 (CEST)

If you're going P/W, why not just go whole-hog support and bring in "Watch Yourself!" instead of GFTE while replacing tactics for command points? It'll add another ~20 party-wide AL, which only makes things easier in hard mode. If you're in an archer-heavy area (like hard-mode spider cave), "Shields Up!" is another option. -Jayemji 05:38, 12 July 2007

Because they don't stack, and GftE is better the "WY"? <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 20:30, 12 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Watch Yourselves is certainly an option if you are in a caster heavy team (such as all SFs and monks) or if you only have level 1 Save Yourselves, although anything on top of There is Nothing to Fear and They're on Fire is probably overkill already. 129.55.200.20 20:04, 13 July 2007 (CEST)

and deep wound is ftw <font color="#336666">Skakid9090 20:31, 12 July 2007 (CEST)

I'd suggest listing counters for this. Granted, its not something you'll ever go up against, you still need to know your weaknesses, so your party can accomidate for them:
 * Adrenaline denial: Soothing images, blindenss, etc.
 * Anti-shout skills: Vocal Minorty, Well of Silence
 * Life steal: Life stealing, not being damage, will ignores this builds defences entirely. Yamagawa 02:39, 14 July 2007 (CEST)

Another possible variant that I have been having a lot of success with is adding in mending refrain. Since you will be maintaining aggressive refrain with they're on fire all the time outside combat anyways, you can also maintain mending refrain on your entire party. I use 16 Leadership and 13 motivation for a +4 mending refrain. Alternatively, you can get 8 motivation for a +3 mending refrain and have some attributes in spear mastery so you won't do 1 damage (not like it is really significant anyways). Finally, you can also have a teammate or hero use mending refrain and you can maintain it too, in which case you can use the same build. 24.147.149.123 17:47, 21 July 2007 (CEST)
 * I find mending refrain incredibly awkward. This build looks easy to use without it. But if you're willing to cope with it I say why not. Leeroythefeared 01:37, 8 September 2007 (CEST)

But what do you do with the second paragon? :)
I'm currently thinking about a second paragon, to hit the buttons this one doesn't; this one is just (heh!) damage reduction, deep wound, and critical hits. A paragon targeting important allies with Energizing Finale & Finale of Restoration, melee allies with Blazing Finale, and spamming Anthem of Flame could help out the whole team. But maybe I'm just suddently addicted to PvE paragons, and I'm seeing uses for Motivation that don't really exist. Thoughts? <font color="#0AA">Permanganate 06:05, 15 July 2007 (CEST)


 * Why not use Archive:P/W "Watch Yourself!" SoR? --[[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] <font color=#6e8b3d>frvwfr2  (talk · contributions) 06:07, 15 July 2007 (CEST)


 * somethin like this imo

[build prof=P/? mot=12+1+1 lea=12+2][Finale of Restoration][Mending Refrain][Energizing Finale][Energizing Chorus][Song of Restoration][Anthem of Flame][Aria of Restoration][Ballad of Restoration][/build]
 * - <font color="#336666">Skakid9090 06:20, 15 July 2007 (CEST)

lol
I was thinking, man, I have to get really far in Factions to get these skills, but then i was like Duh! I can get em in GH. So just a tip for anyone worried about that. <font color=#6e8b3d>frvwfr2  (talk · contributions) 02:02, 18 July 2007 (CEST)
 * The worst part is, when you do get to Cavalon/HzH, you'll be saving up faction for those Befriending Quests. I may or may not be stuck on them. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 21:44, 20 July 2007 (CEST)

Skills Template broke?
Just tried copy and pasting the template code in game and what's there isn't working, I get an empty skillbar. Just a heads up.

Got that problem to.. Sma 17:04, 30 July 2007 (CEST)

Check if you have the Luxon/Kurzick/Sunspear skills and then check if you took the right template (Kurzick/Luxon). 84.136.203.142 17:11, 30 July 2007 (CEST)

Why Focused Anger/Angressive refrain?
Soldier's Fury and Furious Spear. Certainly builds more than enough adrenaline and opens up a spare skill slot and costs less, attacks faster, recharges quicker than agressive refrain and lasts longer. And spamming WY, you're under the effects of a shout all the time, not to mention There is nothing to fear which maxed out at Sunpear, you can spam as it ends.

Do note tho, this para build owns outside of DOA. In DOA, even in normal mode, you gonna be lucky to get any kind of shout off, lotsa vocal minority and soothing images which they all just seem to spam on the para all the time. So bring hex removal or have someone cast Spellbreaker on you.


 * why would you not want double adren... don't need to waste an elite slot for a little more attack speed when you could pump out twice as many shouts. - <font color="#336666">Skakid9090 12:41, 26 July 2007 (CEST)


 * There is not a big difference between +25% attack speed and +33% attack speed. Aggressive Refrain is essentially "free" after the first cast because the paragon never lets it end, you should keep using They're on Fire to maintain it even outside combat (with high leadership, They're on Fire is very cheap). The biggest reason why you want Focused Anger is so you can maintain Watch Yourselves all the time. It might not be a problem if you have high alliance title, but if it only lasts 3 seconds, there may be small windows where it is not on and your team is slightly more vulnerable to attack. Your spear's base damage is insignificant anyways, especially in endgame or hard mode where this build really shines. 129.55.200.20 21:32, 30 July 2007 (CEST)

Variant (and personal experience)
I been trying this build out for a little while, and don't have the luxon/kurzick skills unlocked yet, but did quite well with this variant: I used Strip Enchantment and Well of Blood, with necro as my secondary instead of warrior, and used wild throw. This allowed me to remove a lot of protections on my enemies as well as preventing corpse exploitation (in most cases) and providing my party with a bit of health regen to counter some of the nasty health degen you run across in some areas. The build works wonderful, and I just thought I'd share. Do be careful to watch out for health degen. If your monk can't handle that, you may be in deep trouble.

Damage Reduction
Does anyone know/can figure out the total damage reduction %? I love this build, I ran it in some of the later Vabbi missions and my healers got bored :) Can't wait to try it in hard mode. --88.105.115.145 21:17, 13 August 2007 (CEST)

With "Save Yourselves!" (Wiki says 82% reduction), "They're On Fire!" (29% @ 12 Leadership), "There's Nothing to Fear!" (31% at the reccomended SS rank 8), that calculates to a 142% damage reduction if you have all 3 at once. Im not sure what the game mechanics allow in terms to exceeding 100% reduction or if they even stack, so someone might have better inputn. Im just getting that from the skill descriptions. AfroThunder396 02:02, 16 August 2007 (CEST)


 * Elemental and physical damage will be reduced by approx. 91.34% (to ~8.66%). Armor-ignoring damage is reduced by approx. 51% (to ~49%). Arilink 02:24, 17 August 2007 (CEST)

91.34% Is the figure I came to, thank you. --88.105.7.235 11:49, 19 August 2007 (CEST)

Yea because its .18x.71x.69... I got 91.18% reduction... but what does it matter?

Focused Anger vs "For Great Justice!"
With the buff to FGJ, could we re-evaluate this build? The FA bug only allows a max +100% gain, the same as FGJ. But FGJ is cheaper and unlinked. The only thing FA has as an advantage is its duration. But still, replacing it could open the doors for another elite like "Incoming!" or Soldiers Fury (for even MORE adrenaline). Just throwing this out there, what are your thoughts? AfroThunder396 01:30, 16 August 2007 (CEST)


 * not bugged anymore... --[[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] <font color=#6e8b3d>frvwfr2  (T/C/RFA) 02:37, 17 August 2007 (CEST)
 * just tested it, still bugged. at 15 leadership, dismember should get charged in 2 hits, it takes 3. Asdfg 02:46, 17 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Well, Adrenaline Gain is capped at 100%/double adrenaline. I think this should be noted, but calling it a "bug" is going too far. --Longasc 12:15, 25 September 2007 (CEST)
 * FGJ's downtime is... too unappealing as it is now. FA>FGJ

What about For Great Justice and Focused anger for a permanent double adrenaline gain? Maybe replace vicious attack. ---  Ressmonkey   (talk)  13:01, 2 October 2007 (CEST)

New Update
Barely survived. &mdash; Rapta   (talk|contribs) 03:47, 24 August 2007 (CEST)

Sorry I checked the new updates and I don't understand how it affects this builds. Please can you tell me which or how the new update affects this build. Thank you.&mdash; ihavtheranger | 15:12, 25 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Limitation to 3 PvE skills. This has exaclty three. Thus "barely". Asdfg 21:47, 25 August 2007 (CEST)

What if...
there isn't anyone to inflict burning? If so, should Anthem of Flame be used? And which skill should be replaced if so? -The Titan 17:19, 27 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Replace ToF with Sig of Return. Asdfg 17:28, 27 August 2007 (CEST)

There's Nothing to Fear Change
With the increased recharge time (20 seconds) to TNtF, you go 10 seconds without it now. That's a bit of a bummer and hampers the build a bit.

Look that way - Seed of Life is 4 seconds, recharge 25. This lasts 10 seconds (12 leadership) and recharges 20 seconds. SoL is on 2/5 of time and TNTF is 1/2. Paragon's got hit by nerfbat a bit weaker than Monk's. &mdash; Abedeus   12:55, 31 August 2007 (CEST)

Yep, TNF is still broken as it is. Tycn 13:04, 31 August 2007 (CEST)

Still broken -_-... Still better than "Incoming!" LavaEdge324 13:05, 31 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Wait, your model for broken is better than incoming..?76.102.172.202 00:42, 9 September 2007 (CEST)
 * Broken? Come on, this is PvE. Isnt the near imbalanceness the point of PvE skills? Asdfg 13:20, 31 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Well, yes. I never said it was a bad thing... Tycn 13:21, 31 August 2007 (CEST)
 * And neither did I. I was just pointing it out lol. LavaEdge324 04:18, 3 September 2007 (CEST)

ohnoes, ~90% damage reduction instead of 95%! /slit &mdash; <font color="#336666">Skakid9090 00:42, 1 September 2007 (CEST)

LOL...nerfed a bit
They just Nerfed it, "There's Nothing To Fear"! is now 20 second recharge time instead of 10, So if thats a major nerf tell me


 * It hurts, but it's still a great skill. [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] <font color=#6e8b3d>frvwfr2  (T/C/Sysop) 04:24, 3 September 2007 (CEST)

Focused Anger does not profit from Furious Spears
You cannot get more than double adrenaline anyways. For the 15 seconds without FA? Um - I would rather take sundering or vampiric or the right elemental spear for the target. Furious is without effect 75% of the time. --84.147.73.98 18:20, 17 September 2007 (CEST)
 * furious spear gives numerical adrenaline increase, Focused doubles adrenaline gain. the should stack (resulting in 6-10 adrenaline gain from one hit), like in dragon slash spam builds. ~ ʑʌɱʌɳəəɺɨɳɳ [[Image:Zealot's Fire.jpg|19px]] (contribs) 23:35, 29 September 2007 (CEST)

why "ToF!"?
Why is "They're on Fire!" in this? it might make a good variant if used with SF, but by itself? ~ ʑʌɱʌɳəəɺɨɳɳ  (contribs) 23:35, 29 September 2007 (CEST)
 * It's a team game, use your team. You should have a Rodgort's Spammer/SF on your team if you're good anyway ;) — Skakid9090 23:38, 29 September 2007 (CEST)
 * And if you have them on your team in end game EotN do yourself a favour and uninstall guild wars. 58.110.139.185 11:45, 15 November 2007 (CET)
 * You know, I'm looking at the build tag right now, but I can't quite find where it says "END-GAME EOTN ONLY FAGETS". Could you point it out for me really fast?  I mean, it's pretty obvious you can see it, maybe you could help the rest of us out. --71.208.133.30 11:54, 15 November 2007 (CET)
 * Beat all campaigns with Dual LoD/1 SF and henchies. Sometimes LoD/MM/SF. SF really sucks. Lionfire 16:32, 21 December 2007 (EST)

Partial nerf
Aggressive Refrain given Cracked Armour....damn Areanet! Leeroythefeared 00:02, 13 October 2007 (CEST)
 * GftE got killed worse. Lord of all tyria 00:08, 13 October 2007 (CEST)
 * I made a PvE para a week ago. Ran this build. Spent like 30k on it. Got to survivor earlier today. So what to do now? Delete it..? 78.156.195.25 00:26, 13 October 2007 (CEST)
 * You're only losing ten armor and some energy management. Use proper insignias or condition removal and you'll be fine. --InternetLOL 00:30, 13 October 2007 (CEST)
 * Or, bring a monk. Or is it unremovable? Tycn 02:23, 13 October 2007 (CEST)
 * Hence, condition removal. :) --71.229.204.25 02:24, 13 October 2007 (CEST)
 * Cracked Armor is applied every time Aggressive Refrain is re-applied, so with all that 'Save yourselves'-spam condition removal is hardly an option. I'm thinking of 'Watch yourself' now instead of GftE for HM also as a more constant armor buff. Still the E-Management got severely hit. Pumped Leadership to 14 to compensate. Overall it still works at cost of damage purposes. Arilink 05:02, 13 October 2007 (CEST)
 * Save Yourselves! Doesn't affect yourself. I've been doing fine with e-management at 12 leadership so far, although I won't scoff at e-denial attempts anymore. And I agree you'd need very hefty condition removal to keep up with the cracked armor applications. Ikuma3000 05:46, 13 October 2007 (CEST)
 * Bring a Restore condition hero monk with some good energy management and you'll be in heal-heaven. Seb2net 21:43, 29 October 2007 (CET)
 * Or the condition removal spotless. Cracked Armour isn't really a "nerf" anyways. 58.110.139.185 11:47, 15 November 2007 (CET)

They're on Fire is bad, two attack skills isn't good (and spear of fury is meh)
^ ToF out for anthem of flame, vicious attack out for Ebon Vanguard thingie of Honor, and spear of fury out for spear of lightning. Then you like... go and beat mallyx hardmode. And stuff. - Auron 10:19, 18 November 2007 (CET)


 * Normally I listen to what you say about builds, but 29% less damage from all foes is quite a bit, and Spear of Fury lets you maintain partywide +100 al. I'll grant you vicious for ebon vanguard thingie, though. Care to explain why we're dropping the defense hugely? (Or are you thinking of using multiple imbagons while I'm thinking of only one?) -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 11:00, 18 November 2007 (CET)
 * You aren't dropping the defense hugely; SY is easy to maintain without spear of fury (which is a bad skill anyway because most teams don't have condi spam and pve offers too many enemies to spam on them all at once; spear of fury and ToF are *only* good in teams of nukers, and since nukers are pretty much the most ineffective damage-dealers in the game, you really are wasting slots). - Auron 08:29, 19 November 2007 (CET)

Why spear mastery at all?
Seriously, with one attack skill in high-end PvE (where this really shines and is meant for, imo) you may as well be attacking with just your spear for all the additional DPS it brings. I'd go 12+1+1/12+1/3 leadership/command/spear mastery and replace spear of lightning with Anthem of Envy. +22 damage to everyone in earshot after every third attack already out-DPSes spear of lightning. --Mafaraxas 12:28, 29 November 2007 (CET)
 * I'd say the req and the breakpoints, but this is really more Auron's territory, so I'll let him answer. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 20:07, 29 November 2007 (CET)
 * Why would you need 13 command? It's just there for the shield. You don't need high spec to have GtfE give back energy.
 * Secondly (and more importantly), the best part about paragons is their ability to do scarily high DPS while making the party invincible. If they could only sit there and spam tntf/sy, they might as well just be a prot monk. - Auron 16:56, 1 December 2007 (CET)
 * They'd still be better than any prot monk, heh. Do you really think the extra damage from one spear attack every seven seconds is "scarily high DPS"? Anyway, like I suggested, I'd replace Spear of Lightning with Anthem of Envy if you did drop spear mastery. --Mafaraxas 21:40, 1 December 2007 (CET)
 * Spear auto-attacks? I'm guessing you only play casters.. &mdash; Skuld 22:05, 1 December 2007 (CET)
 * You called the caster thing, but where (on -any- class) is auto-attacking going to provide any useful DPS in high-end PvE? --Mafaraxas 23:32, 1 December 2007 (CET)
 * Yes &mdash; Skuld 01:07, 2 December 2007 (CET)
 * I'm horrible at debating, so I'll just say that shit dies when I wand it on my para... and I don't even have ebon ward yet... Put it this way, between the invincimode of TNTF and SY and the speed deaths of me spearchucking + GFTE + Spear of Fury (as I lack ebon ward :/), I'd hate to run into one of these in PvP. And, imo, that should be good enough for PvE. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 01:31, 2 December 2007 (CET)
 * A few of these in a balanced team (not a retarded gimmick like 1 tank and a bunch of nukers) provide enough DPS to kill mallyx in hard mode. I don't see what more you'd want.
 * And really, what makes paragons so godly is their ability to do DPS at range while having unlimited energy to fuel skills ranging from any secondary class to any elite; without the DPS, they would be worth a whole lot less. But you are (obviously) vastly underestimating the autoattack damage of paragons. - Auron 11:31, 2 December 2007 (CET)

I Am The Strongest
Could this just be used instead of the standard, recharge is the same but lower cost and get a +1e return. Now I understand the ward would be for party support, but since I am midline I do not have a whole lot of casters in my area (does the +dmg work on casters or only physicals?). If there was a second paragon or more then yes the ward of course. Also I have found getting a higher norn rank a lot easier then Ebon lol. (Mr Pink57 08:10, 17 December 2007 (CET))
 * Run ten feet forward and plant it at your frontline. --71.229.204.25 08:14, 17 December 2007 (CET)
 * And yes, ebon ward affects most spells too; direct damage and AoE alike. As far as I know, it doesn't affect armor-ignoring spells, though. --Mafaraxas 08:33, 17 December 2007 (CET)
 * Get an MM with fiends imo. --Mala[[Image:Mala_sig_Mind_Blast.jpg|19px]] 18:17, 17 December 2007 (CET)
 * Oh damn. Fiends + ward damage? Wow... -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 06:04, 19 December 2007 (CET)

Stacking Armor?
I run this build in a split para build, with one of us always bringing watch yourself, does the armor stack with SY?24.176.98.38 13:22, 19 December 2007 (CET)Gabe
 * Armor level. "There is a cap of +25 armor from skills. Single skills may exceed this cap."  So no, only SY applies in your situation.  And I'm a little afraid to ask, but how are you splitting in PvE? o.O --Mafaraxas 20:55, 19 December 2007 (CET)
 * He is using paragons... it's not like they'll not survive... -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 19:04, 19 December 2007 (EST)
 * Split as in 2 paras lol. [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] <font color=#6e8b3d>frvwfr2  (T/C/Sysop) 16:33, 21 December 2007 (EST)

Archive
This needs an archive I think personally since the original build must not be anything like what it is now. And on a secondary note, would this or Archive:P/W "Watch Yourself!" SoR be a good build to use for survivor (or any other para build)? And one last thing, when u say +10ar shield what do u mean? I know Monks and some other classes have ones for each damage type in High-end PvP but that seems a bit much for PvE so would a fortitude shield do fine?--Cursed Condemner 16:20, 27 December 2007 (EST)
 * You've apparently never used this if you think it needs an archive. (tbh I don't like this current version, there are better ones for general PvE imo) &mdash; Skakid  16:22, 27 December 2007 (EST)
 * I meant the TALK might need to be archived but it might not need it either (idk if ur supposed to archive talks) but w/e. Also, what version do u prefer to use for pve thats suitable for survivor?--Cursed Condemner 16:49, 27 December 2007 (EST)
 * Lol skakid. This is, quite simply, the best PvE imbagon build out there... -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 20:31, 27 December 2007 (EST)
 * No, it's not. For Mallyx, yes. For some dungeons, maybe. For a shitload of PvE? No. &mdash; Skakid  20:37, 27 December 2007 (EST)
 * *blink* It matters for things other than Mallyx? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 03:00, 28 December 2007 (EST)
 * And by that I mean Auron and I make haste-agon our way through EotN and gate of madness. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 03:00, 28 December 2007 (EST)
 * I still don't know why this uses SoL over vicious. I mean, yeah, SoL is powerful and spammable, but you already have GftE and deep wound is ftw. Also SoL doesn't work with orders ;p --Mala[[Image:Mala_sig_Mind_Blast.jpg|19px]] 19:41, 28 December 2007 (EST)


 * I use a different version to breeze through HM dungeons =) &mdash; Skakid  19:45, 28 December 2007 (EST)


 * It's higher DPS and things don't generally last long enough for DW to be worth it. Then you get to Mallyx, who kills you if you use a condition on him. Or something. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 15:17, 29 December 2007 (EST)
 * Vicious instead of spear is fine, nobody cares about the differences. It's just nitpicking. Deep Wound almost never happens (GtfE on recharge to get your energy up after TNTF prevents syncing with vicious, and even then, you're rarely ever going to crit Hard Mode creatures reliably). The token attack skill, frankly, matters least. I've even replaced the attack skill with something else entirely and done quite well.
 * The rest is where it can't be beaten. I have yet to see a non-TNTF/SY bar be any good. If you're changing minor details and claiming its a different build, who cares? - Auron 04:53, 18 January 2008 (EST)

3 PvE Skills  Removed Battle Honor for Optional
I saw it was 3pve if the game has not changed i guess its only 2pve skills aloud :) Massive   05:30, 3 January 2008 (EST)
 * Always been three. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 00:18, 4 January 2008 (EST)
 * Used to be 8.. Kongtorp 15:26, 5 March 2008 (EST)

Ebon Battlon Standard of Honor
How neccessary is this to the build, well I'm saying without this (don't have rank) does it completely suck.75.161.139.163Palin Oni
 * It's the most optional slot on the bar, but there aren't too many better alternatives as far as damage support goes. Look at the variants section for other options. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] <font color="black" face="calibri">Mafaraxas  23:19, 2 February 2008 (EST)
 * It's the least broken of the three PvE skills, but not by much. I'd recommend getting it. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 23:33, 2 February 2008 (EST)
 * I'd recommend playing around. Depending on how you want to spend your PvE skills, you can mess around a bit. Drunken Master is honestly a lot of fun with this; you get to ditch AR for something else, too. - Auron 09:57, 8 February 2008 (EST)
 * EBSHonor is the best PvE skill in the game to increase a party's damage output. Hands down. Racthoh 17:12, 14 February 2008 (EST)

Anthem of Flame?
What's the point of this, unless you're with a group with a Searing Flames ele or something? Wouldn't "Find Their Weakness!" flow better with GFTE? --68.36.10.140 22:36, 12 February 2008 (EST)
 * So you do burning, your warriors do burning, you can maintain AR... &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 22:44, 12 February 2008 (EST)
 * FtW can't maintain AR. The burning stuff is secondary, but a nice bonus. - Auron 02:18, 13 February 2008 (EST)

2nd Paragon as a hero
Obviously, the build would change... but what should I bring if I want to have my 2nd paragon be a hero (or perhaps even a 3rd one also as a hero)? I usually do my vanquishes H&H. Alaris 15:32, 13 February 2008 (EST)
 * Only 2 para heroes so.... But this build is good for that. [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] <font color=#6e8b3d>frvwfr2  (T/C/Sysop) 15:48, 13 February 2008 (EST)
 * The above build is good, but the armor from "Watch Yourself!" and "Shields Up!" is unnecessary which is why I use . Due to the Shouts and Chants constantly ending, this may be a better choice to use along with the Focused PvE Paragon. For another Paragon hero, I was thinking about using Angelic Bond mixed mostly with Command, Spear Mastery and other Leadership skills, but honestly, I think two support Paragons is enough. =P -Mike 22:00, 14 February 2008 (EST)

&mdash;  Skadiddly [슴Mc슴] Diddles  22:02, 14 February 2008 (EST)
 * This is my typical setup when I get to play with my heroes. First goes like this:

[build prof=P/? command=8+1 lea=11+1 spe=11+1+2][Aggressive Refrain][Blazing Spear][Vicious Attack][Stunning Strike][Signet of Return][Anthem of Flame][Hexbreaker Aria][Anthem of Envy][/build] with the second like this [build prof=P/? mot=10+1+1 lea=11+1 spe=10+1][Aggressive Refrain][Mending Refrain][Song of Purification][Aria of Zeal][Spear of Redemption][Wild Throw][Merciless Spear][Signet of Return][/build] and a third like this [build prof=D/N Mysticism=10+1+1 Blood=10 Wind=11+1][Arcane Zeal][Order of Pain][Dark Fury][Mystic Healing][Vow of Piety][Faithful Intervention][Watchful Intervention][Dwayna's Touch][/build] With Dark Fury you basically win PvE in 5 attacks (Stunning Strike), and SY pops up every 2 attacks when FA or FGJ are in effect (read, always) which is pretty amazing to say the least. The second paragon provides a lot of utility; party wide heal, whole lot of condition removal, a free spell for casters every so often, stance ending, and deep wound inflicting. Hex heavy areas I swapped their elites for Empathic Removal, and replace Spear of Redemption with a second Hexbreaker Aria. With SY and that D/N build you can safely play with 0-1 monks for most hard mode content. Racthoh 02:26, 15 February 2008 (EST)
 * Someone say paragons weren't overpowered? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 16:53, 15 February 2008 (EST)

lol
even with a non-5-5-5, the overall is still 5.00 &mdash;  Skadiddly [슴Mc슴] Diddles  23:38, 15 February 2008 (EST)
 * gogo rounding. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] <font color="black" face="calibri">Mafaraxas 00:23, 16 February 2008 (EST)
 * I'm lovin' it. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 04:52, 16 February 2008 (EST)
 * I think the build shown could be better though. One attack skill gives the impression that you're not there to do damage. Two adrenaline shouts with nothing really to spend the energy on. Attributes should be 14/12/7; 15 AL req 7 shields ftw. Racthoh 16:07, 16 February 2008 (EST)
 * If you've got r7 shields to spare, by all means put that in. But for the most part, people are going to use greens. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 16:20, 16 February 2008 (EST)
 * True there isn't much of a difference. 1 spear mastery > 1 AL is all. :p Racthoh 16:21, 16 February 2008 (EST)
 * Ya, but it's been a while since I've seen al 15 r7s lying around... -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 16:24, 16 February 2008 (EST)
 * Think more people hang onto them now as they realize it fetches a fair price (my blue ones were 25k-50k each). For this build it's not really a big deal since it uses GftE! anyway. Racthoh 16:30, 16 February 2008 (EST)

New optional slot
I'm thinking about putting optional instead of the ward. Plenty of stuff can fill it in, most based on personal preference; FGJ, ymlad, iats, finish him, the ward, drunken master, etc. As long as they don't interfere with the build's ability to spread invincibility, they're fine. Some options simply suck (no reason to put something lame like another attack skill, for example), but some work pretty well. Should we keep it as is? Put another skill instead of ward in the main bar? Change to optional and list all the possible fillers (or at least the most effective ones)? - Auron 08:22, 16 February 2008 (EST)
 * I'm definitely for an optional. As minute a detail as it may seem, those without high EV rank might feel this out of their reach. An optional would reinforce the notion that the Ward isn't a skill essential to the build's functionality. -<font color="Black">Shen 09:27, 16 February 2008 (EST)
 * The ward is definately one of those PvE skills that gets significantly better at the max rank. Longer duration and the damage gets higher. I know I hadn't even considered the skill until after I traded in my books and my agent rank got high (this skill does WHAT?!?). The two damage shouts are quite good at any rank for their secondary effects more than the damage (although ranged instant Eviscerate at max norn rank is pretty sweet). Drunken Master works well with Aggressive Refrain to reach the IAS cap and even at rank 1 dwarf you hit that cap. I am the Strongest! I've only used as an optional when there are maybe one or two others that could take advantage of the ward. It's a nice skill but suffers the same as the ward being far less effective at a lower rank compared to its upper bound. I would definately not consider FGJ in the place of a PvE skill. I would use it over GftE! or Anthem of Flame. I'm actually surprised that FGJ is not a main skill on the bar; encounters that last longer than FA's 45 second duration are times when I would hate to lose my double adrenaline rate. Mobs that last less than 45 seconds are the kind you don't even need SY to kill.
 * At max rank EBSHonor has no replacement. That has to be noted. Racthoh 16:00, 16 February 2008 (EST)

pve skills
This build is a prime example of why PvE skills should never have been put into the game. --71.240.80.160
 * Why is that? Rickyvantof 15:00, 16 February 2008 (EST)
 * Uh, this is the most overpowered build in the game, due singularly to the three PvE skills it utilizes. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 15:02, 16 February 2008 (EST)
 * That's why it's PvE-only skills. Why is it bad to have an overpowered build in PvE? Not like it ruins balance or anything... Rickyvantof 15:10, 16 February 2008 (EST)
 * Makes the PvE-only rewards near-worthless. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 15:11, 16 February 2008 (EST)
 * I suppose. But that only goes for Paragons... Rickyvantof 15:17, 16 February 2008 (EST)
 * No, it goes for everyone, because anyone can take one of these guys along with them. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 15:54, 16 February 2008 (EST)
 * People would rather bring an Ursan than a paragon. Gotta love the PvE community and how ignorant they are. Racthoh 16:01, 16 February 2008 (EST)

Ideally, this build should be used with 8 party members, although it can still perform with 4, but it wouldn't be worth it. Take this build, and compare it to a 55 monk, or a touch ranger and tell me if it's still overpowered. Paragons don't generally have the right skills to farm on their own as they are a support profession. It's nice to see people try to come up with offensive Paragon builds (without PvE only skills), but generally, a Ranger or another primary can just do it better. So, we need something to make Paragons useful in PvE compared to another Monk or Ritualist. And I find that Paragons can play Ursans better than most other professions (due to the refrains and energy gain from Ursan Roar).

Now, for the build itself, "For Great Justice!" seems more important to me than damage output. I prefer 16 Leadership (12+3+1) over 12 to get those extra couple seconds out of "There's Nothing to Fear!" and the energy gain. Honestly, with high enough Leadership, you can maintain Aggressive Refrain with just "There's Nothing to Fear!". When it comes to the adrenaline loss from "Go for the Eyes!" or that 1.75 seconds (aftercast included) spent activating an Anthem in a critical situation, it could mean the loss of key party members; especially when you only have 3 in your allegiance rank. You can't afford to waste time and adrenaline. With Leadership at 12+3+1, Command or Motivation at 8+1, and Spear Mastery at 10+1, you could just take Aggressive Refrain, Focused Anger, "For Great Justice!", "There's Nothing to Fear!", "Save Yourselves!" and leave the other three as optional. This way, there's no need for "chaining" with another nearly identical Paragon, because there isn't much benefit to two of these. For another optional skill, Mending Refrain might come in handy thanks to the recent buff (or nerf, if you prefer that one pip of health). If you really want burning, precast Burning Refrain or Blazing Finale. Just my thoughts. -Mike 17:01, 16 February 2008 (EST)
 * 55 and TRs overpowered? Vamp Touch you're dead, cripple the TR and run away. Powerful builds I'm sure. Even *if* this build is not insanely powerful that isn't the way you go about balancing skills and professions. Ancestor's Rage and Splinter Weapon ring a bell? Two skills Izzy refuses to do anything about because without them the profession is weak. Moreso AR as splinter-farming NPCs has been made less effective with recent VoD changes. To say that paragons are not as useful compared to another monk or ritualist is nonsense. It's a common mistake to think more healing can replace passive defense. Not only that but the paragon provides that passive defense with its impressive ranged DPS. Racthoh 17:21, 16 February 2008 (EST)
 * When I mentioned the Touch Ranger, I was referring to the ability to bypass most defensive effects of foes (armor, blocking, and most other protection). And when I compared the Paragon to Monks and Rits, I meant if they hadn't PvE skill like "There's Nothing to Fear!" and "Save Yourselves!". I also wouldn't say that the damage from a Paragon is "impressive" if you just compare it to a ranger or elementalist. If you had one Monk in your group of eight (and few or no other support classes), and you had the choice between another Monk or a Paragon without PvE skills, is it even sane to take the Paragon. That's what I meant when I compared PvE skill-less Paragons to Monks and Rits. But, afterall, this build gives Paragons hope. XD -Mike 18:08, 16 February 2008 (EST)
 * Is it sane? I'd definitely take the paragon over the monk. But it'd be retarded to have your party of eight with the only defense on dedicated support characters - SS necros with enfeebling/reckless, off-monk aegises (aegi?) are handy to have and mean you can run with one monk and some paragons. Maybe you consider paragon damage low because you only run with 11 in spear, it should be at least 13. You do big domoge (well kinda, but it shouldn't be scoffed at). --Mala[[Image:Mala_sig_Mind_Blast.jpg|19px]] 18:46, 16 February 2008 (EST)
 * Ohshi- you said gon without PvE skills. But srsly, why propose that situation? They're there, use them. --Mala[[Image:Mala_sig_Mind_Blast.jpg|19px]] 18:48, 16 February 2008 (EST)

This build has just as much counters as a touch ranger or the like. Blocking, Blind, Anti physical hexes (Visions of Regret, zomg die plox) etc. they all apply as counters to this build, making it totally useless. Rickyvantof 18:43, 16 February 2008 (EST)
 * The build's not useless cause it can be countered, it's useless when it's countered, that's what I meant :) Rickyvantof 18:44, 16 February 2008 (EST)
 * In Gwen, against most monsters, I found myself dealing about 6 damage per attack (except when I used Spear of Fury) The difference from 11-13 Spear Mastery really isn't much (you might get about 3 damage against a target with 60 AL per auto-attack). In PvE where monsters can have Armor Levels beyond that of your shield-wielding warrior, 6 damage per second really won't do much. I would cut out Spear Mastery completely if I found a viable replacement in this particular build. I'm not saying that Paragons are bad, but that this build may be the only from a Paragon that can reliably replace a Monk in a group with little defense. -Mike 19:09, 16 February 2008 (EST)
 * Your DPS increases significantly with SoL spam. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 20:36, 16 February 2008 (EST)
 * By about 5-7 damage per second. lol But, it makes up for it's own damage with Ebon Battle Standard of Honor (with high rank, of course), "Go for the Eyes!" and Anthem of Flame (which should both only be used if you have at least 7 in Allegiance Rank; that's why I suggested they become optionals). Honestly, I think the build should just be Aggressive Refrain, Focused Anger, "For Great Justice!", "There's Nothing to Fear!", "Save Yourselves!" with a bunch of optionals. That way, it'll be much more flexible. -Mike 21:20, 16 February 2008 (EST)
 * Paragon does damage + support. No other profession does that as well as the paragon. The paragon does not deal the best damage in the game, the paragon does not provide the best healing in the game. It just does everything really well at the same time. PvE skills were never needed to make the paragon a viable profession, they have always been imbalanced. 106 AL midliner with a 14-27 ranged weapon. Without PvE skills a curses necro is going to be the only character capable of providing as much defense (Reckless, Enfeebling Blood) and offense (Spiteful Spirit) as the paragon, somewhat. The curses necro however will have SS damaging non-priority targets whereas the paragon can focus his damage on targets that matter. Paragons are only weak in the eyes of the community because they lack AoE, all there is to it. Racthoh 22:00, 16 February 2008 (EST)
 * Paragons are only weak in the eyes of the community because they lack AoE the community is stupid, all there is to it.
 * FTFY. --71.229 22:04, 16 February 2008 (EST)
 * Well, I didn't want to say it like THAT :p Racthoh 22:08, 16 February 2008 (EST)

The Paragon definitely isn't weak, but offensively and without the use of other attacking party-members, they don't provide much damage. Although, the Paragon has found a good balance between offense and defense. Now back to the build, anyone else agree on having "For Great Justice!" to cover the downtime of Focused Anger? And I find that if you have Anthem of Flame, "Go for the Eyes!" and Ebon Battle Standard of Honor it might affect your adrenaline gain and thus leave gaps between "Save Yourselves!", unless you have an allegiance rank of 7 or more. -Mike 22:26, 16 February 2008 (EST)
 * No on the standard. Allies dealing +15 damage with everything (spells, too) > 1 second of downtime every 20 seconds.<font color="Black"> &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 22:33, 16 February 2008 (EST)


 * Splinter Weapon &mdash;  Skadiddly [슴Mc슴] Diddles  22:45, 16 February 2008 (EST)
 * I didn't say to take out Ebon Battle Standard of Honor completely, you'd keep it as optional anyhow. But if it were up to me, that 20 seconds of downtime would probably result in plenty of deaths if not prepared. Either Spear of Lightning "Go for the Eyes!" or Anthem of Flame would be best to take out for FGJ (unless you have both low Allegiance Rank and Ebon Vanguard Rank, you might as well take out EBSH too). As I mentioned, having a bunch of optionals would make the build more flexible. Aggressive Refrain, Focused Anger, "There's Nothing to Fear!" and "Save Yourselves!" is the base of the build as it'll still work with lower ranks. "For Great Justice!" makes "Save Yourselves!" easier to maintain. -Mike 22:46, 16 February 2008 (EST)


 * Eh, you shouldn't be under intense pressure for more than 45 seconds if you're playing PvE correctly. Bonus adrenaline is capped at 200%.  I could go either way as far as keeping only the essentials on the bar, but the current bar is pretty much the best it can get.  I could see us just sticking the core skills in the Variants and say 'have fun' with the optionals. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] <font color="black" face="calibri">Mafaraxas  23:32, 16 February 2008 (EST)


 * Adrenaline is capped at +100%. ~ <font color="#444">ĐONT <font color="#444">* <font color="#444">TALK  03:53, 17 February 2008 (EST)
 * He said that. - Auron 03:57, 17 February 2008 (EST)
 * He said bonus adrenaline is capped at 200, didn't he? ~ <font color="#444">ĐONT <font color="#444">* <font color="#444">TALK  03:59, 17 February 2008 (EST)
 * +100% = 200%. The bonus is, obviously, the 100% you get above the norm, or the 200% modifier to said norm. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 04:09, 17 February 2008 (EST)
 * When you have SY, why would you play 'correctly'? If you're not aggroing multiple mobs you aren't using this build to its full potential. Racthoh 04:22, 17 February 2008 (EST)
 * Don't you love it when we all argue over something we all know is true. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] <font color="black" face="calibri">Mafaraxas 12:40, 17 February 2008 (EST)

I still don't understand why they wouldn't make Focused Anger last through its recharge, that way it'll be clearly better than "For Great Justice!". I'd rather have "For Great Justice!" on my bar, but we could leave that as optional as well. Also, I find this to be a little unnecessary: "Don't suck. You have no res because you are expected to keep everyone alive. If you screw up on your TNTF/SY chains and your party dies, it's all your fault. It's blunt, but true." lol, because you don't have much time in between SYs to use other skills with activations or that use adrenlaine, and I usually take Signet of Return anyhow. When your start to miss with attacks, your team starts to die... lol For counters, you could add blocking, blind (missing in general), Faintheartedness, etc. and the Quetzals' "Tengu's Mimicry", it's a pain when you come across them. Curse you Quetzals and your +100 armor, ~30% damage reduction to burning foes and ~30% damage reduction! >.> -Mike 08:53, 17 February 2008 (EST)
 * Eh, that just means we need to add Spear of Redemption and Wild Throw to the variants. As far as the Tengu, get your necro to bring Vocal Minority/Ulcerous Lungs/Well of Silence. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] <font color="black" face="calibri">Mafaraxas  12:40, 17 February 2008 (EST)
 * I find it pretty funny fighting those Quetzals, they won't beat your party even with "Save Yourselves!" affecting every single one of them, it's just really annoying. Spear of Redemption and Wild Throw would be good optionals, but the fact that they're adrenaline-based makes their use somewhat difficult. You won't be gaining adrenaline if you're missing. >.> We could mention in the notes to bring allies with anti-stance and enchantment removal when necessary or just make it clear enough in the counters that blocking, blind and missing would kill this build (well, SY, at least). There's still a lot of information missing. -Mike 13:11, 17 February 2008 (EST)

@the person saying its all your fault if the party dies, i'm guessing you play with people who are actually good. i have 4 second sy! that according to my heros status is up 90% of the time. FUCKING URSANS ON MY TEAM STILL DIE. and you no why? becuase its not your fault that most pugers suck. although the validity of the comment is largely true, i do agree. --Dark0805 ( Rant /<font color=#ff11aa>Contributions ) 16:57, 1 March 2008 (EST)