Archive talk:A/any SoS Spike Assassin

Initial Discussion
Once you get the hang of timing DP with everything, this is fun and effective in RA & TA. I could see it being used in HA and maybe GvG, but since I don't do either much, can't say for sure. - Insidious420 19:36, 28 July 2007 (CEST)

not so effective that ppl should bring counters like for sp sins but ya pretty cool and effective.mizzouman 09:08, 29 July 2007 (CEST)
 * People do bring counters to this. They're called hex removals. :) --Edru viransu //QQ about me 09:09, 29 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Dont work except if the monk uses holy veil cuz they cant use spells || Ressmonkey 01:57, 30 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Yeah Holy Veil is the biggest problem I've encountered with this, and considering how popular Holy Veil is, it's a big problem. That said, even if SoS is stripped, Dark Prison will most likely still be on long enough to start the attack chain and at least deal damage and aid in the spike.  Hex Breaker isn't usually a problem unless the target has perfect timing with re-applying it.  Aside from general melee counters like Blind & hexes, the other biggest counter is another player removing SoS off your target, which I've only seen happen so far in RA when there's more than one monk on the other team. - Insidious420 03:31, 30 July 2007 (CEST)

I think the last two votes should be removed or at least changed. Impale isn't a spell, it works through SoS, so that complaint is rendered null. Hex Breaker doesn't destroy the build. The build has 2 hexes, unless your target has perfect timing with Hex Breaker, which is very hard considering Deadly Paradox cuts cast time of SoS in half, then SoS will always land... - Insidious420 04:40, 7 August 2007 (CEST)
 * You stand next to people before you dark prison them? –Ichigo724[[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 15:24, 7 August 2007 (CEST)


 * What? And this build works great, just a little awkward to begin with. [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] frvwfr2  (talk · contributions) 15:36, 7 August 2007 (CEST)


 * There's no reason you'd ever need to "stand next to people before you dark prison them". Even if Hex Breaker blocks the HEX part of the spell, you will still shadow step to the target, they just won't be hexed... but then you SoS them and start the combo.... - Insidious420 22:31, 7 August 2007 (CEST)

HAnD uses this with another assassin. It works well together since the 2 toxic shocks are a killer, but alone it's not very effective. Railin 05:36, 14 February 2008 (EST)

Ratings
Krowman, I don't know why you're so biased against this build, your rating makes no sense. 0 effectiveness means something doesn't work AT ALL - this works enough to earn something more than 0, and its counters are listed on the page and most are easily overcome. Your logic behind your Hex Breaker/SP comment makes no sense - both builds are just as susceptible to Hex Breaker interrupting the chain, I'd like to hear you explain why you think otherwise. Why's your rating so biased? - Insidious420 22:31, 7 August 2007 (CEST)

Edru Viransu, thanks for modifying your rating comment. However... saying SoS is bad... hmm... think outside the box, not every 'sin has to be SP/BoA. Most SoS builds are weak because they rely on Siphon Speed, and there's a lot of time to get shut down before you reach the target. But if you know what you're doing with this build, you can at least shutdown anyone who could shut you down before they even have a chance. I would actually recommend TRYING the build, at least in RA/TA, and until you get the timing of DP & the chain, until you say it's bad. - Insidious420 22:31, 7 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Most SoS builds are bad because SoS is bad. I'm not opposed to thinking "outside the box". I run shattering assault, warrior's endurance, and other hardly common or strong elites. I'm opposed to running bad skills. hex removal owns this shroud of silence. Also, disabling your spells in a line made up of a number of good spells is a bad idea. --Edru viransu //QQ about me 01:51, 9 August 2007 (CEST)
 * SoS is good in TA :). Ok in HB, but I prefer SP sins more (Utility wise). Readem (talk *pvxcontribs ) 01:54, 9 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Edru, thanks for elaborating on your rating & actually rating it fairly based on your reasons :) Readem, thanks for your input on tags & for taking a look at the ratings page.  Sorry if any of my posts seem a little aggressive, but whenever I see all 0, clearly biased reviews for ANY build that clearly isn't COMPLETE trash as all 0's would imply, it's frustrating.  Speaking of... - Insidious420 22:36, 22 August 2007 (CEST)

Skakid9090, about your rating comments: "uses dark prison", yes, this build uses Dark Prison, you're very observant. Since you didn't elaborate beyond an observation, I can only assume you think DP is a bad skill & you didn't read the build usage section. By itself, it's arguably not a good skill, but with Deadly Paradox & proper timing, it works very well here. "Crap for GvG&HA", GvG & HA tags were removed for that very reason. "Low damage. ect." is very subjective. Maybe it's low damage compared to another build (typical SP/BoA?), but judged on its own, I'd argue otherwise... the full attack chain kills any caster in one shot, and does significant damage to higher armor classes. You have to admit all 0's is pretty biased, for whatever reason, especially considering how highly you rated a comparable SoS build. Please rate fairly or remove the rating. - Insidious420 22:36, 22 August 2007 (CEST)
 * If you're gonna be a glass cannon, you have to guarentee kills.the combo is extremely expensive, 5-15-25-35-40-45 energy total so yeah that kills universatility. it doesnt kill anything with ease, a simple preveil owns you. the other one does armor ignoring degen and can kill warriors, it has a heal and a snare/speedboost &mdash; Skakid9090  22:40, 22 August 2007 (CEST)
 * The combo's expensive, but it works. The -5 energy from Deadly Paradox in your calculation really doesn't matter tho, as you will have regained it by the time you can actually start the chain when the attack skills are recharged.  The combo worked perfectly before the BSS nerf, but you're right it does struggle a bit now.  However, total energy cost is no reason to give a 0 for universality.  Universality has nothing to do with energy.
 * This actually does kill (maybe not with ease at first, but with proper timing it does), and a simple pre-veil owns the other SoS build in question too just as badly as it hurts this one. Holy Veil hurts both builds just as badly.
 * This does -3 less degen than the other build, and it CAN kill warriors, especially if Deadly Paradox & the attack chain are timed right, allowing the chain to be used twice on one target. Don't forget, SoS also knocks out any support spells that could be used for healing or offense.
 * This also has a snare, 2 actually: Dark Prison and Horns of the Ox.
 * You also can use a self-heal with this, as described under Variants. Sig of Toxic Shock can be swapped for Restful Breeze.  Dropping Sig of Toxic Shock of course lowers total damage, but this build is just as much about killing as it is about near constant caster shutdown through DP+SoS.  Besides, even with 1 other halfway competent teammate in RA, and a full competent, coordinated team in TA, there will be enough damage from other sources to finish off the target. - Insidious420 23:10, 22 August 2007 (CEST)

i admit i did 0-0-0 to balance votes, it was necessary. this should be in the other section since it's a glass cannon with \out that much damage &mdash; Skakid9090  23:28, 22 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Hmmm... seems to defeat the purpose of having a community-driven rating system at all.... - Insidious420 03:22, 23 August 2007 (CEST)
 * So according to the vetting guideline(or rule?) your vote is invalid. Quote: "A vote must constitute an objective judgment of the build's qualities...Votes that deliberately overshoot in favoring or unfavoring a build in order to 'compensate' another vote are not acceptable either." Jsummers 4:37, 28 August 2007 (PST)
 * yeah, it's a shame our community is a bunch of idiots. &mdash; Skakid9090  05:46, 24 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Where'd you get one of them tall ass horses from? I sure would like one too! - Insidious420 15:27, 24 August 2007 (CEST)


 * Obviously it's useless to argue, but for the record, here are some damage calculations. These use the stats from the other SoS build to get the damage for the typical sin combo:


 * Note, I assume target has 500 health to get 100 'damage' from Deep Wound, and assume 50 damage from Impale, being very generous with target's armor level.

So, this actually has very comparable damage to other sin builds, if not more (depending on target's armor vs Impale), and it's not a "glass cannon" if played properly. But again, if you're judging this build based on pure damage and killing potential alone, you're not seeing the bigger picture. Based on your comments, you're looking at this with both eyes closed and seeing only what's in your head... and violating wiki policies, not to be a stickler or anything. Thanks for giving me something to do at work though. - Insidious420 23:40, 23 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Um... you know, you're ignoring that the typical combo gets twice as much dagger base damage. --Edru viransu //QQ about me /sysop 00:18, 24 August 2007 (CEST)
 * True, it's less base dagger damage but I thought that was a moot point. You guys are ignoring the fact that the skills themselves, and even the weaker dagger damage, kill most casters with one use + degen, which is the purpose of the build.  You're acting like this is an insignificant spike and the whole thing is a complete failure, it's silly. - Insidious420 02:56, 24 August 2007 (CEST)
 * its an assasin build without a self heal, a fairly generic spike, a poor shadow step, and fairly weak elite skill. almost all dagger chains kill via degen. this is just a sin with a special elite and a very narrow focus range; we already have a large amount of them. its just not that good of a build. Alpha fireborn 04:03, 24 August 2007 (CEST)
 * No self heal? Read.  Sig of Tox Shock can be dropped for anything, Restful Breeze is in Variants.  I'm not arguing the 'goodness' of the build.  I'm arguing the specific points used to try to say it's not good.  There's a difference.  Fyi we actually don't have a large amount of SoS builds, just one other so far.  As an SoS build, this works, arguably better than the other.  Thanks for all the feedback. - Insidious420 04:37, 24 August 2007 (CEST)

(reseting indent) read shroud of silence, your gonna be LONG dead before you can cast restful breeze if you get hit while your spiking someone. theres no self heal that works in this build. Alpha fireborn 04:41, 24 August 2007 (CEST)
 * That's why I usually don't bother with a self heal in RA with this, killing is more important and teammates should have Res Sig. With coordinated players in TA, self heal isn't necessary.  Either way, the option is there.  I agree with you, an efficient self heal is difficult to manage here.  Of course there's no self heal that works as well in here as in any other build without SoS, but that's a natural trade off of using SoS. - Insidious420 05:16, 24 August 2007 (CEST)
 * A/N signet of lost souls for self-heal? Jsummers 4:46, 28 August 2007 (PST)

armchair analysis fails. &mdash; Skakid9090  05:42, 24 August 2007 (CEST)

Random correlation between GvG/HA, a TA Build, and Dark Escape Fails more imo. + My Armchair analysis, is not only more accurate then yours, it is also significantly more comfortable. Readem (talk *pvxcontribs ) 05:48, 24 August 2007 (CEST)

Tags
Would definitely remove GvG and HA m8 :). Readem (talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 01:38, 9 August 2007 (CEST)
 * yup. no gvg or ha with this. - Y0_ich_halt 16:52, 10 August 2007 (CEST)

Aug 9 2007
Update didn't do much to this build. Dark Prison buff helps a tiny amount, since you can use it more often, but energy is much more of a problem. <font color=#6e8b3d>frvwfr2  (talk · contributions) 16:46, 10 August 2007 (CEST)
 * +5 energy daggers help a little bit, but really only make the first and 2nd combo loops easier energy-wise. The BSS nerf really did hurt this with respect to quickly regaining energy and re-using the chain. Dark Prison & SoS are now perfectly sync'd with recharges tho :) - Insidious420 23:27, 22 August 2007 (CEST)

watchlist
sorry for the offtopic, but i don't see a better place to discuss this and maybe others have the same problem... in my watchlist this article shows up as unvisited no matter how many times i clean my cache and i visit the page. it stays bold. is my watchlist or something with this article broken? - Y0_ich_halt 01:34, 11 August 2007 (CEST)
 * ok, now i really hate this. once i post this comment about an issue i've had for some time now it's fixed. ¬.¬ - Y0_ich_halt 01:47, 11 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Dunno, programming error perhaps. Bring it up to GC. <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 01:56, 11 August 2007 (CEST)
 * "Great Carl" :D - Y0_ich_halt 02:09, 11 August 2007 (CEST)
 * I've had that about a dozen times by random pages, just hit "mark all pages visited". –Ichigo724[[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 06:36, 24 August 2007 (CEST)
 * edit: blargh, didn't check date. –Ichigo724[[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 06:36, 24 August 2007 (CEST)

More and more people are reporting this, and I've seen it myself a few times. To help track down the error, please do the following when it shows up: visit both the build page and the talk page. Check if both of them are watched (have an 'unwatch' tag). Check if both pages are shown in bold on your watchlist (if at all). Check if both visits fail to clear the boldness on your watchlist. Check if you did put the page on your watchlist (probably by editing it) before the talk page was created. Finally, if you find something interesting, report it on my talk page. Maybe we can find some systematics and fix the bug. –&thinsp;<font color="darkblue" face="times">H HHIPPO  &thinsp;&lsaquo;<font color="blue" size="-2">sysop &rsaquo; 22:21, 24 September 2007 (CEST)

Energy?
Thought about using Black Lotus Strike? Kastore 21:44, 25 September 2007 (CEST)
 * make an example how exactly you'd do that. kinda hard imo. - <tt>Y0_ ich_halt </tt> 21:54, 25 September 2007 (CEST)

Deadly Paradox nerf
Now fifteen energy. Still viable? --71.229.204.25 03:10, 30 November 2007 (CET)
 * Hardly viable to begin with. - [[Image:Kowal.jpg|15px]] <font face="dauphin" color="maroon">Krowman   03:14, 30 November 2007 (CET)
 * Replaced Deadly Paradox and Dark Prison with Shadow Walk and Dash. With only 2 melee attack skills you don't need a snare. In variants it now says you can add Siphon Speed instead of Resurrection Signet in case you're worried about extra hex removal or a snare. Smooths 18:15, 27 December 2007 (EST)
 * Remove all reference to Deadly Paradox in the article. The Liu Meister 04:00, 4 February 2008 (EST)

Clean up the article
It has references to skills that aren't in the build, especially the first part of the usage. (it mentioned Deadly Paradox, but it's not in the build...?)  Infidel  ( talk ) 10:19, 4 February 2008 (EST)

Snare
This needs one. Swapping Shadow Walk/Dash combo for Siphon Speed or Dark Prison can make this a lot better. -- Guild of  Deals  15:38, 4 February 2008 (EST)

As in more like this?

[build prof=A/Rt name="Deadly Shroud Impaler" dead=12+1+2 dag=10+1 cri=8+1][Siphon Speed][Shroud of Silence][Black Spider Strike][Vampiric Assault][Impale][Signet of Toxic Shock][Optional][Resurrection Signet][/build]

Suggestions for the optional slot? Selket Shadowdancer 16:06, 4 February 2008 (EST)

Build:A/any SoS Spike Assassin/Editcopy
Perhaps? -<font color="Black">Shen 17:00, 4 February 2008 (EST)

Phail
Umm plz read the "overview" section on the page.... There is a whole  BOLD  section devoted to nothing to do with the build himynameisbobbyjoe 21:34, 4 February 2008 (EST)


 * Fixed. ~ <font color="#444">ĐONT <font color="#444">* <font color="#444">TALK  01:08, 5 February 2008 (EST)

Iron Palm
Why? The damage as far as I'm aware isn't bonus damage, and the target can't remove hexes because of SoS or run away because of snares (in reference to them being KD). The chain is still reliant on hexes to start so it seems more feasible to start with BSS to get into the more damaing SotS, Impale finish. Also Dark Prison seems kind of pointless with Siphon Speed already on the bar. Selket Shadowdancer 15:08, 18 February 2008 (EST)
 * It's armor ignoring damage and a KD. Dark Prison is a Shadow step. -<font color="Black">Shen 15:09, 18 February 2008 (EST)
 * The knockdown is pointless as the target cannot use any spells (seems you are targeting casters with this) to remove the snare and SoS covers the snare (though any form of hex removal ie: Veil should alreay have been baited out by Siphon Speed). Dark Prison is pointless to be in the bar alongside Siphon Speed, take one or the other but not both, Siphon Speed imo. Not to mention lack of a Resurrection Signet. Selket Shadowdancer 15:19, 18 February 2008 (EST)
 * Don't judge a build based on the lowest form of PvP. You suggest a rez on a GvG sinsplitter. -<font color="Black">Shen 15:22, 18 February 2008 (EST)
 * This isn't just for GvG though is it? Read the build tags. If you want me to understand the logic of this build as it is then you better explain it because right now I don't see it. Selket Shadowdancer 15:25, 18 February 2008 (EST)
 * This build was stolen from japanese sinsplit guilds who used it in GvG. Why the GvG tag isn't the first one is beyond me. [[Image:Railin-WoH.jpg‎|19px]] <font color="#033361">Railin 15:28, 18 February 2008 (EST)
 * That doesn't really explain much. Selket Shadowdancer 03:07, 20 February 2008 (EST)
 * Iron Palm is needed for Falling Spider. And it's less conditional than the ox skills, and isn't affected by antimelee. ~Which is why this build has 15 deadly arts [[Image:Railin-WoH.jpg‎|19px]] <font color="#033361">Railin 03:11, 20 February 2008 (EST)
 * Seems redundant with so many hexes when you could just take BSS, again the KD isn't nessacary with the covered snare and inability of the target to cast spells to remove before you get your spike off. Anti-Melee makes no difference when they will just block your next attack anyway. Selket Shadowdancer 03:42, 20 February 2008 (EST)

Just Shroud the monk, then use your chain on someone else, the extra KD's always help. Moush 18:08, 21 February 2008 (EST)

woot!
no rez for RA FTW! Then again most people with rez dont use it himynameisbobbyjoe 19:15, 19 February 2008 (EST)

Merge
Archive:A/any Deadly Arts Spike Sin -- <font color="#900020">Lann 19:32, 19 February 2008 (EST)
 * Different elite. Usually I've seen these builds used together in assassin splits. [[Image:Railin-WoH.jpg‎|19px]] <font color="#033361">Railin 02:30, 20 February 2008 (EST)

merge it, it is listed as one of the variants in that build and most of the attributes and the uses are the same, and why is it on the frontpage again?Marytheone 13:03, 20 February 2008 (EST)

Some updates for the build after the changes
"Pick your target and time your use of Shadow Walk and Shroud of Silence with your recharging attack skills." --- Shadow Walk was replaced in the build. "This build is not meant to outright kill everything and function exactly like a SP/BoA sin; it is meant to nearly ensure complete shutdown and death of key casters in quick succession." I wouldn't say it can kill casters in quick succession as Iron Palm has a recharge of 20 seconds. Honestly, I don't think Iron Palm should be in this build at all, because the recharge is just too long. It may ensure a Lead Attack but what's the point if the rest of your chain is blocked/interrupted? If it's there solely for snare, I would just use cripple from Black Mantis Thrust. I would take out Dark Prison, replace Iron Palm and Falling Spider for Black Spider Strike and maybe even add something like Rigor Mortis, Expose Defenses or Guiding Hands so that you can get your whole combo on them. Anti-blocking might not be important in AB, but I'm assuming that it will prove to be very useful in GvG. -Mike 17:21, 20 February 2008 (EST)
 * Fix any mistakes, please. Iron Palm is used for a knockdown. - Rawrawr  17:51, 20 February 2008 (EST)
 * There are more effective and faster recharging knockdowns. In GvG, Horns of the Ox should be viable, assuming your enemies don't stand right beside each other and in low-end PvP, something like Black Mantis Thrust->Jungle Strike->Trampling Ox->Falling... also works pretty well (I've been using that combo in AB). But, I'm sure Iron Palm would work in GvG, as you probably won't be spiking targets every 10 seconds anyhow. As for the usage, I'm assuming you cast Dark Prison->Siphon Speed->Shroud of Silence but I'm not entirely sure. -Mike 18:11, 20 February 2008 (EST)
 * You're doing it wrong. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 18:26, 20 February 2008 (EST)
 * Well, I'm sorry that I don't want to start my combo every 20 seconds when I can easily kill two or three foes in that same amount of time. lol I'm just saying, for most low-end PvP, that first knockdown isn't necessary and an offensive sin should be going through his chains more often than once every 20 seconds. An easier, but more costly way to do so, would be to simply change Falling Spider to Black Spider Strike, that way, while Iron Palm is recharging, you can use your chain again. -Mike 18:45, 20 February 2008 (EST)
 * I'm still trying to figure out exactly why the knockdown is in the chain in the first place, you have a covered snare and the caster is unable to cast spells to remove it. Selket Shadowdancer 19:22, 20 February 2008 (EST)

A knockdown can be useful to interrupt any other skills they might attempt to use or non-spell casters, but with the recharge of Iron Palm, it just isn't worth it. -Mike 19:34, 20 February 2008 (EST)
 * Which is why I'm wondering why it's there, especially as a lead attack when you have Siphon Speed in your bar. Selket Shadowdancer 19:36, 20 February 2008 (EST)
 * Personally, I just like seeing my target fall to the ground when they realize they have nothing to do to stop me from finishing them off. XD -Mike 19:40, 20 February 2008 (EST)

The Shadow Step is imo unnessacary, 20 second recharge on your lead attack is also imo unnessacry, especially as it's your only form of interruption in any way, that takes 20 seconds to recharge because you HAVE to use it to start your chain. Here is my suggestion:

[build prof=A/Rt name="Deadly Shroud Impaler" dead=12+1+2 dag=10+1 cri=8+1][Siphon Speed][Shroud of Silence][Black Spider Strike][Vampiric Assault][Impale][Signet of Toxic Shock][Disrupting Dagger][Resurrection Signet][/build]

Considering the build in it's current state doesn't sport a Resurrection Signet you can easily swap it out for another attack skill (Dancing Daggers?) if you so choose to do so. Selket Shadowdancer 19:51, 20 February 2008 (EST)

Build Page
The page looks freaking professional.--Relyk 19:54, 20 February 2008 (EST)
 * I think you meant "omfg, dis iz so pro". &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 16:41, 21 February 2008 (EST)

Siphon and Dark prison?
Does it really need both? The recharge of Dark prison matches Shroud of Silence. The only reason Siphon is really needed is if you use the variant mentioned above with Black Spider Strike so you can get an extra combo in before SoS recharges. Justing6 22:04, 20 February 2008 (EST)
 * siphon 2 run, dark prison 2 spixe with ur sin buddy. [[Image:Railin-WoH.jpg‎|19px]] <font color="#033361">Railin 03:22, 21 February 2008 (EST)
 * And 20 seconds of downtime between spikes. Selket Shadowdancer 05:30, 21 February 2008 (EST)
 * Yes... lol Simply changing Falling Spider to Black Spider Strike would solve that, but it means an extra 5 energy spent on your combo. -Mike 07:02, 21 February 2008 (EST)
 * crippling ganker has 25 seconds downtime. [[Image:Railin-WoH.jpg‎|19px]] <font color="#033361">Railin 08:45, 21 February 2008 (EST)
 * This isn't Crippling Ganker. 12 seconds downtime or 20 seconds downtime, I know which of the two I would prefer. Selket Shadowdancer 09:15, 21 February 2008 (EST)
 * l2shadowstep. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 18:20, 21 February 2008 (EST)
 * Actually, there is the same amount of energy considering iron palm (5) + Falling spider (5) is the same as BSS (10). The main difference is that with BSS downtime is 15 seconds and 66 damage less, but with the original there is 20 sec downtime, 30 sec with SoS spikes. But if you wanted 20 second downtime with the original, downtime would be 40 sec for SoS spikes. That is because SoS spike, 20 sec later another Iron palm spike, SoS recharges 10 seconds after that, you wait for 10 seconds with SoS recharged before you can spike with Iron Palm. To get SoS spikes every 30 seconds you would have to SoS spike, wait 20 seconds until iron palm recharges, then wait another 10 seconds for SoS, then spike with it, and dark prison would have been recharged. Of course with BSS, the order would be SoS spike with dark prison, 15 seconds later another spike with siphon speed, then SoS spike 15 sec later, etc. Justing6 16:57, 23 February 2008 (EST)

Vote to get it removed from Heroes Ascent use.
The tag should be removed, marking it useful in heroes ascent. I am not sure if i can do this, or an admin must. The spike is too slow, and with second and third monks in heroes ascent a must, there is no way the spike would go off unhealed.
 * If a build is overtagged just feel free to remove &mdash;  Skadiddly [슴Mc슴] Diddles  15:28, 2 March 2008 (EST)
 * Speaking of vote removal... If you're going to remove my vote then do it with a credible reason. Stop doing your pathetic vote removal because someone didn't rate it high crap that you are all so famous for. As far as I can see my vote is pretty much a clear reflection of the build, care to disagree? Then give a proper reason because so far the reasons have been pathetic. Selket Shadowdancer 20:42, 2 March 2008 (EST)
 * Fixed. &mdash;  Skadiddly [슴Mc슴] Diddles  20:45, 2 March 2008 (EST)
 * For every arena? RA and AB I disagree. Cripshot hates you. Selket Shadowdancer 20:48, 2 March 2008 (EST)
 * Hmm, AB I agree. This can really do a number in RA though. &mdash;  Skadiddly [슴Mc슴] Diddles  20:49, 2 March 2008 (EST)
 * Last but not least, no Resurrection Signet for RA & TA (if used in splits I can see why it may not have one for GvG). As for RA, this will only do a number if you are lucky to get placed with a good team. With no form of self heal to counter degen, degen will also hate you. I have used this alot, it is an ok build, but not for all the arenas suggested. I didn't vote it trash so I really don't see the issue with my vote. Selket Shadowdancer 20:54, 2 March 2008 (EST)
 * Cause it's wrong. The variants suggest a good replacement for ressig. &mdash;  Skadiddly [슴Mc슴] Diddles  21:07, 2 March 2008 (EST)
 * Many times before has it been said we don't go by variants. ;) Also taking a Resurrection Signet affects the universatility of the build imo. I've revoted but I'd prefer more discussion about the vote first before vote removal/editing etc. Selket Shadowdancer 21:09, 2 March 2008 (EST)
 * The variant thing is a different story here. &mdash;  Skadiddly [슴Mc슴] Diddles  21:11, 2 March 2008 (EST)
 * Because it's designed and vetted for GvG, where the rezsig wouldn't ever be on the bar, the situation's different. --71.229 21:25, 2 March 2008 (EST)
 * However the design specifically for GvG makes it not so suitable for other arenas. Your either sacrificing damage, or sacrificing universatility in losing either the shadow step or siphon speed. Also its only strength is in tackling casters, it's pretty shit for anything else. Selket Shadowdancer 21:30, 2 March 2008 (EST)
 * You lose neither for arena use, you simply compress your combo (although truthfully, losing the shadowstop wouldnt be a big deal in the small arenas). You can still kill things other than casters, and you can prevent warriors from being a huge threat with good Siphon usage. &mdash;  Skadiddly [슴Mc슴] Diddles  21:36, 2 March 2008 (EST)
 * I disagree, it's too slow against anything thats not a caster to be greatly effective. Using Siphon Speed as a snare is a decent advantage but losing that element of surprise against casters by dropping the shadowstep kind of gives away your intent too. I mean do you really think this could go toe to toe with a Ranger? Sure it's not designed to, buts thats my point, it's too specific to be highly universal. It's good against casters, that much I'll agree but if faced with anything else it pretty much has a bad day. Selket Shadowdancer 21:44, 2 March 2008 (EST)
 * I'd just like to clarify that nothing goes "toe to toe" with a ranger. Rangers aren't supposed to die. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 21:45, 2 March 2008 (EST)
 * This build's primary usage calls for the rez to be subordinated in favor of the bar best suited for it's primary purpose. Any build that should be changed, whose Variants should be implemented when used in areas it isn't primarily designed for, doesn't receive low marks because a Rez doesn't function in it's primary purpose. Fittingly, the secondary purpose calls for secondary skills. You'd have a case if the effectiveness was greatly diminished. -<font color="Black">Shen 21:58, 2 March 2008 (EST)
 * Mind making that understandable? Selket Shadowdancer 22:16, 2 March 2008 (EST)
 * Primary purpose --> No res required.
 * Res --> Can subsitute skill if needed.
 * &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 22:17, 2 March 2008 (EST)
 * Substituting skill for res=less universal=less effective as already pointed out above. Selket Shadowdancer 22:38, 2 March 2008 (EST)
 * That argument made no sense. You could say that having to take a rez sig instead of another skill hinders ALL characters. Duh. This character functions well in RA. Zuranthium 02:08, 4 March 2008 (EST)

QQ – Ichigo 724  22:55, 2 March 2008 (EST)

In short: you're wrong. Universality doesn't have anything to do with Effectiveness. Yes, I can play the "I don't care what you say, you're wrong and I'm right" game too.

Also, you can't vote down a build that says "you can replace res sig" with the reason "I can't replace res sig". &mdash; Rapta   (talk|contribs) 23:01, 2 March 2008 (EST)
 * Universality has everything to do with Effectiveness, unless you are referring to Selket's twisted version of Universality. Right? -<font color="Black">Shen 16:36, 3 March 2008 (EST)
 * Precisely. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 17:09, 3 March 2008 (EST)

March 6th Update
It lasts only 3 seconds now. I have a feeling this will be archived.<font color="goldenrod" face="arial bold">←Crossfire Is Buff 16:32, 6 March 2008 (EST)
 * Siphon Speed also get nerfed. Why do they only nerf assassins... It has been a while since we've seen buffs. - Star Seeker  |  My talk  16:36, 6 March 2008 (EST)