Build talk:Team - 7 Hero Dual Mesmer Discord

Feedback
I put this in trial for now to receive more feedback. I've got a couple of people who said they're going to look into this build and compare it with two more builds that have the same focus, RoJway and this test thing. However, who knows how many of them will actually find the time to go for it and then report back within the next few weeks? --Krschkr (talk) 09:58, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

Exemplary Video
I've made one with a DoA NM fullrun, which isn't particularly exciting, but still a good place to show that a build works well, how it deals with different obstacles, how fast it is over all. I doubt that it's going to be uploaded until in ~30 hours, so if anyone has a better idea where to show the build (i.e. anywhere you can actually see something because there isn't absolute darkness) feel free to point it out! --Krschkr (talk) 11:54, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

Resto on the SoS
Having a single healer seems less reliable, and Lamentation are Smite Hex are both fairly underwhelming. Perhaps it is worth putting Resto on the SoS? --Xanshiz (talk) 18:49, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Perhaps. If you have time to run some tests for comparison it'd be good if you shared your results. Spirit bond would be another interesting thing to try, since it's often more useful than direct healing. However, wouldn't you rather drop smite condition than smite hex? There's just one shatter hex, smite hex has a larger range than smite condition and getting rid of hexes is more useful than of conditions, usually. --Krschkr (talk) 00:03, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, I meant smite condition. --Xanshiz (talk) 01:37, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

Revisiting the Backline
The solo healer can be expanded to a two-healer backline without significant damage loss. This could be done in two ways. First, putting Resto on the SoS:

Or, by putting Prot on the SoS:

--Xanshiz (talk) 02:56, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I'd favour the spirit bond solution. I haven't had that good results with the restoration magic hybrid, its casting of healing spells interfered with the splinter weapon spread that's the crucial feature of the hero. As a result, I couldn't notice any increase in stability and sometimes I had the impression that the lower splinter weapon frequency might even have worsened it. --Krschkr (talk) 03:04, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Revisiting the Midline
Running a safer backline (per above) might allow for more aggressive midline options. For instance, instead of Panic + Ineptitude, it could be Esurge + Ineptitude, Panic + Esurge, or 2x Esurge. Perhaps these different midline options would fall under the "Defensive," "Balanced," and "Aggressive" categories of the Project 7 hero meta for non-mercenary melee compositions?

Lastly, I fear diminishing returns when running two death magic heroes. Fiends on the first death magic hero provide significant DPS, but the second death magic hero seems less impactful. For instance, a possible change could be to replace never surrender with blood of the master, and then replace the Explosion Discord with something different, such as an elementalist:

The exact type of elementalist is up for discussion, but worth considering. --Xanshiz (talk) 02:56, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Since the team is melee-player only (unless we change it) we could suggest multiple dual mesmer variants on the same page without causing desastrous clutter, as long as testing shows they perform about the same and don't require changes of the rest of the team. For the sake of having enough hexes we'd at least need to keep one panic or arcane conundrum, even though I'd rather have both, especially if lamentation gets removed from the Rt/Mo. When not playing a caster/AP caller build hex availability is a bit of a limiting factor for discord builds. So, unless we drop discord entirely we have to keep a couple of area hexes in order to keep the necromancers functioning. We can't expect melee players to spam asuran scan. As a result, the likely combos would be panic/inep or esurge/inep, which could simply be represented by a single variable skill slot. --Krschkr (talk) 03:14, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I'd suggest only running one discord Necro and instead slot a defensive elementalist. This is because the second discord Necro offers far less than the first since it doesn't run minions. This change would also reduce the necessity of slotting an abundance of AoE hexes. Here is a possibility:

Or, another possibility:

Or another:


 * --Xanshiz (talk) 04:56, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
 * If we drop one discord necromancer we can also try discordless variants with one of the now standard dual IMS bone fiend MMs so we have a bit more freedom of choice regarding the new gap filler hero's utility skill slots. By the way, do you know whether there's been any testing of N/Me and E/Me fake mesmers vs. "proper" elementalists in the recent past? I haven't done any and think to remember those were quite disappointing builds. However, as proper elementalists aren't that exciting either the fake mesmers might have some merits. --Krschkr (talk) 12:31, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes the dual IMS could be both on the one necromancer (if running, say, a fake mesmer). If running an elementalist, command slots nicely on it, so the extra damage elite might be worth the attribute split. These proposed changes are basically triple energy surge, but replacing a mesmer with a non-mesmer damage dealer (either an elementalist, a fake mesmer, or a discord Necro). I have not seen direct testing of fake mesmers versus proper elementalists, although I have had poor experiences with fake mesmers in the past. Losing 4 points in domination magic and all points in fast casting hurts a lot. --Xanshiz (talk) 16:52, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Mhm, the main deal breaker is losing fast casting. But testing might show that these builds can compete with elementalists because of all their shortcomings. How should fake-mesmers look like?


 * Can any of these lit a spark of interest? I see the two seconds casting time of wandering eye and arcane conundrum and feel like risking to lose my consciousness from disappointment. --Krschkr (talk) 03:52, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Maybe, it would need to be tested, but as you point out, the loss of fast casting hurts. The Bsurge E/Me with domination secondary seems like it would be hurt the least of the posted bars due to the low cast times. Another option worth considering (which I know you dislike) is turning the Rt/mo into a Mo/rt. 14 protection, 12 channeling, 9 smiting would make for some pretty strong prots (7 second SoA), although splinter is ~38% weaker. I think it's worth testing side by side a fake mesmer + true ritualist versus a true mesmer + fake ritualist. The advantage of the latter is that the loss of spawning power is meaningless. --Xanshiz (talk) 07:20, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Compare this and Dual Ritualist Melee Support
This comp and Build:Team - 7 Hero Dual Ritualist Melee Support are in my eyes the two candidate dual ritualist non-merc compositions (not a fan of RoJway). While the the two comps differ in implementation, they satisfy the same objective, and as such should be tested against one another. This may help improve both comps, and if one of the two were shown to be superior, perhaps the other should be archived. --Xanshiz (talk) 07:22, 4 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, these are competing teams for the same purpose (melee, general use, no Zei Ri). If clear differences in their performance can be found and one of the builds is generally favoured only one should stay. But unless it receives enough votes to get out of testing the one that is less favoured won't get archived. It'll be either a deletion or a move to the user namespace. --Krschkr (talk) 11:56, 4 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I actually ended up doing standardized testing run with this and it performed quite well. Then did a test with dual air eles to compare to 2 necros and it went way worse. Which is a surprise to me since on paper thunderclap/b-surge should provide more defence than the necros but team with ele's was much less stable. I think this was thanks to the player character (Dervish vs. Warrior). -Master Elros (talk) 15:54, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * That's an interesting result, maybe I'll revisit this comparison as well. What were your mesmer setups for each run? And were you able to experiment with one ele + one mm? --Xanshiz (talk) 18:46, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I used the standard bars from build pages for mesmers, so dual e-surge for elementalists and panic/inept for necros. Did more testing with the elementalist bars and ran them with panic/inept, and completed Ragnar's Menagerie HM as a test, wasn't the prettiest run and had plenty of deaths, but managed to finnish it. Then played around with few backline options, like SoS resto + BiP, SoS Prot + BiP and ST with and without smite skills to eliminate any disparities between tests, also did all testing on warrior. Also tried MM + B-surge with for Thommis + Rand HM, but wiped twice before I got Thommis down and called it quits after the first chest. Tried the same with single healer + dual discord and was able kill both. It was quite frustrating and really not the best set-up for doing slaver's HM, but since I really only had problems with summit groups with summoners in them I guess it's even better than I thought at first. I have to say I remain puzzled as to why the eles perform so much worse. --Master Elros (talk) 22:07, 25 June 2020 (UTC)