Archive talk:A/any Dwarven Promise Spiker

I know it doesn't have IAS. if you carry IAS, you have to wait for the target to get up (so that the crippled kicks in) before hitting Trampling Ox, and having to wait to activate attack skills defeats the point of carrying IAS.--Reason.decrystallized 16:34, 12 May 2008 (EDT)
 * This is what I've been looking for all this time.  [[Image:Sebsig.jpg|19px]]  seb2lazy2login   (ʞ1ɐʇ)  16:41, 12 May 2008 (EDT)

No Repeating Strike on a "Repeating" Striker? Dr4goN ( talk /pvxcontribs ) 14:09, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
 * no. :(--Reason.decrystallized 14:12, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
 * It's a Reapeting SPIKER, not a reapeting STRIKER. Frosty! 14:39, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I read Striker as well at first. I expected Way of the Empty Palm and a big WELL-tag. Drag  nmn   talk cont  14:54, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
 * You know, i didn't even think of repeating strike when i named it. WTB new name?  Dwarven Promise Spiker, maybe?--Reason.decrystallized 14:56, 13 May 2008 (EDT)

very very nice build imo, change name tho, i was expecting repeating strike :p will comment more when i have time xD Close Impact   talk  14:59, 13 May 2008 (EDT)

The name is changed, because EVERYONE thought that it was another repeating strike build. have also changed the link on the mainpage.--Reason.decrystallized 15:04, 13 May 2008 (EDT)

Critical agility for signet of toxic shock. Ias is more important then signet.
 * you have to wait for crippled before using Trampling, so it doesn't help. see above note.--Reason.decrystallized 16:18, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
 * just so you know I did try it with CA when I was developing it--it's ridiculously hard to maintain at 8 CS (even with enchanting dags) with the constant back-and-forth shadow stepping. besides which, the target is on the ground for the whole spike anyway, so it's not like speed is totally urgent.  SoTS or a norn shout is better.--Reason.decrystallized 17:32, 13 May 2008 (EDT)

Not a bad idea for a build and puts a good use to Promise instead of putting it on a nuker(in PvE) Killaruna 16:08, 13 May 2008 (EDT)

This build could work in PvP with scorpion wire over shadow fang and YMLAD for KD and horns of the ox of trampling ox. Spike builds are usually better in PVP anyway.
 * YMLAD =/= PVP. that aside, i really wouldn't take AP into PvP except for lulz--players tend to be better at living through spikes/removing hexes than the AI.--Reason.decrystallized 15:48, 14 May 2008 (EDT)

This build
Is the only build that I like that has Assassin's Promise in it. Congratulations. ̡͌l̡*̡̡ ̴̡ı̴̴̡ ̡̡ ͡|̲̲̲͡͡͡ ̲▫̲͡ ̲̲̲͡͡ I͡n͡f͡i͡d͡e͡l  ̲̲͡͡ ̲̲͡▫̲̲͡͡ ̲| ̡̡̡ ̡ ̴̡ı__̡͌l̡*  16:53, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Very original idea, but the problem is that with a long chain, your bar is pretty tight and you miss out on some nice utilities (Deep Wound, IAS although it might mess up your chain, rez...). -Mike 17:35, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
 * has deep wound.--Reason.decrystallized 17:36, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Woops, forgot about Shadow Fang, but its Deep Wound doesn't really apply when you need it most. Well, it's better than no DW. -Mike

your spike shouldnt last 10 seconds imo. you should get a kill by then. Ojamo 18:35, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
 * you usually do. it's really more for the in-and-out teleport than the DW as such ... impale or "finish him!" work pretty well instead of SoTS--already in variants, do you think that they would be better main bar?  energy is a little tight, though ...--Reason.decrystallized 18:55, 13 May 2008 (EDT)

I'm wondering if iron palm could replace YMLaD for use on heroes, if anyone could test it for me it'd be great as I don't have all the skills to test it yet 58.111.89.235 04:15, 24 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I'd doubt that they'd use the chain in the right order, and even if they did, they would have to wait before using Horns of the Ox (instead of Trampling Ox because you lost your cripple) to keep the target in 4 seconds of knockdown before asploding. -Mike 08:23, 24 May 2008 (EDT)
 * the AI phails at combos. i've never--ever--seen it use a dagger-chain correctly, much less Assassin's Promise.  sorry.  :(--Reason.decrystallized 09:54, 24 May 2008 (EDT)

ah well I'll keep hoping for the day Anet fixes assassin heroes... Nemaedar 13:26, 24 May 2008 (EDT)
 * The last couple updates might have helped a little, but I haven't tried chains on my sin heroes in a while. They might be able to use a MS/DB build now, but I'd have to test it. -Mike 13:37, 24 May 2008 (EDT)

This build is so fun! :D Mason717 14:53, 16 June 2008 (EDT)

Shadow Fang
Seems pointless, you should kill most stuff in PvE within 10 seconds with that spike. If you want Deep Wound just run Twisting Fangs instead of Blades of Steel. You have no IAS, to pull it off quicker, and no Resurrection Signet. Finally take a look at this: Archive:A/R PvE Promise Assassin Selket Shadowdancer 19:57, 13 May 2008 (EDT)

Shadow Fang is used simply for a quick teleport for closing in when you use YMLaD to immediately spike with Falling Lotus and to continue spike &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ace (contribs).
 * more importantly, it also teleports you back out once you're done with you kill.--Reason.decrystallized 14:36, 14 May 2008 (EDT)


 * Suerly a spike this big isnt need in pve general, for AB i could understand but you wont finish your spike and you dont have any AoE.[[Image: Howe304sig.jpg|20px]]Howe304 02:47, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * That's what Assassin's Promise lets you repeat your spikes in quick succession, so that you can keep up a steady-ish DPS. Also, it shouldn't be too hard to get a kill in PvE, as monsters seem to bring less defense there. Most of your damage comes from your attack skills, anyway, so it ignores armor. -Mike 07:19, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * /agree. the monster dying before you finish your spike is wonderful for you--it means that you don't spend time or energy completing the chain and can start killing another one that much sooner.  but the spike is far from overkill--.--Reason.decrystallized 14:36, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * It does mean that Shadow Fang is pointless in this chain. Change it to Dark Prison to cover Assassins Promise from removal, if you need Deep Wound just change BoS for TF imo. Selket Shadowdancer 21:44, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * The point of shadow fang is that it teleports you back out--if you can't avoid hex removal, then take Dark Prison instead, but constant two-way shadow stepping = bad-ass ninja.--Reason.decrystallized 05:41, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Capping in AB with Assassin's Promise+Shadow Fang is pretty fun, because you could hide behind an obstruction so that the Ranger's attack would miss, jump in and kill one, shadow step away, then back again and kill the next. I think Shadow Fang is still good in this build, but take Dark Prison if for some reason there's a lot hex removal in an area, because Shadow Stepping away in the middle of the chain kind of sucks. XD -Mike 07:20, 15 May 2008 (EDT)

CS
minor rune imo. Going right underneath the Breakpoint iz lulz? --84.24.206.123 14:39, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Breakpoint for energy is 8, dunno what other breakpoint there is here. Only problem would be weakness. Drag  nmn   talk cont  14:47, 14 May 2008 (EDT)


 * Wut? Always thought it was 9... Lemme recheck. Ogod I suck.. /resign --84.24.206.123 14:49, 14 May 2008 (EDT)

votes
experienced: how on earth is a build that lays a monster on its back for 2 successive knockdowns (three if you take Dwarven Headbutt) while unloading hundreds of damage on it and then instantly recharging not useful in PvE? The whole idea of this build is to not only kill but INCAPACITATE the target--a HM monk can't get off his WoH if he's on his arse for 4 seconds. Selket: that build has no cover hex or knockdown. Additionally, the only skill they share outside of optionals is AP--entirely different chain/build. perhaps you would care to elaborate.--Reason.decrystallized 13:43, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * That build kills stuff, effectively, you can also quite easily drop the Resurrection Signet in that build for a cover hex and take Tiger Stance to help keep energy cost down and keep an IAS in the bar which this lacks. Knockdown isn't that important but you could quite easily just run a Trampling Ox chain with AP, get a KD and still kill stuff. This build has a serious flaw that can be manipulated by AI that you still haven't addressed and has no guarantee of inflicting Deep Wound. Hex removal will ensure you're teleported back to where you shadowstepped from. Selket Shadowdancer 06:53, 16 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I don't think this is a 2-2-2 build, all builds that rely on hexes to work are stopped by hex removal. I'll look at the votes again once a consensus has been reached as to what the bar should be. --[[Image:Ibreaktoilets_Signature.jpg|User:Ibreaktoilets|20px]]Tab  Moo  07:07, 16 May 2008 (EDT)
 * If Hex Removal is common, take Dark Prison, or another build. You have to prepare yourself for certain areas of PvE. -Mike 07:09, 16 May 2008 (EDT)
 * What Mike said. I'd probably run Dark Prison in the main bar and take Twisting Fangs over Blades. --[[Image:Ibreaktoilets_Signature.jpg|User:Ibreaktoilets|20px]]Tab  Moo  07:21, 16 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Dark Prison should be in the main bar with Twisting Fangs imo, as I said the build as it stands is flawed because if Shadow Fang is removed you're left with APs long recharge and running back to the target to finish him off. Also there's not really any reason to run this over MS/DB, you can easily run YMLAD and Trampling on a MS/DB bar. Selket Shadowdancer 07:24, 16 May 2008 (EDT)
 * /agree with Mike. Twisting gets heavy on energy, imo--I personally like BoS->Impale for most places.  yes I know that those together cost the same energy, but you don't have to have it all upfront, you gain two energy from zealous dags with the dual that can be used towards impale, and often BoS will kill without having to use Impale at all.  as for ms/db, well, ms/db is awesome, no disputing that.  but just because we have one awesome thing doesn't mean that something else couldn't work/be fun, too.--Reason.decrystallized 11:21, 16 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I'd rather keep Shadow Fang, as that Deep Wound might be able to finish off your target if you can't, and jumping in and out is sexy. Maybe you should just add a Variant Build with Dark Prison and Twisting Fangs for areas with too much hex removal. Just get 13 in Critical Strikes, and you should be okay with that Variant. -Mike 16:36, 16 May 2008 (EDT)
 * The Deep Wound happens right when YMLAD! recharges, too, so you get an extra packet of (ranged) armor-ignoring damage on top of it--which has made the kill for me many, many times.--Reason.decrystallized 17:03, 16 May 2008 (EDT)
 * You'd just have to be careful about using "YMLaD!" again to finish off your target because that 10 energy cost will add up, but it is a good last resort to finish off your target, and regain your energy from AP. -Mike 17:14, 16 May 2008 (EDT)

NM Optional Slot
If you ever use a build like this with heroes and henchmen you will find your enemies have a tendency to die before you even finish your chain (in Normal Mode). As such, I recommend bringing along Air of Superiority instead of a "finisher" in case the unthinkable should happen with your hexes. Air of Superiority offers a chance for instant recharges. Just something to consider.

Spiking in PvE
Useful amirite?
 * In some cases, Mr. Anonymous, it is. Corpse talk  03:19, 26 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Not very useful, but this is constantly ready for another spike and then another and then another, so...78.2.4.47 13:27, 26 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Spiking like this is fine IMO! --  Super Igor   *ninja!!*  18:32, 29 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Nice chain. Really takes everything about YMLaD into account.  But I have one problem: Assassin's Promise.  Is it used for the recharge?  Because you have a lot of energy IMO... [[Image:Offering_of_Spirit.jpg|20px]]  Benjammn 311  11:09, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Recharge, yes. Allows you to constantly switch target. God  box   11:13, 2 June 2008 (EDT)is
 * The term spike is kind of misleading here anyways, calling it a spike implies it does a burst of damage and then has downtime and then does another burst, this build has no downtime if things go well. Necromas 01:50, April 4, 2010 (UTC)

Gotta love the "Hit-and-Run" tactics. Lord  of  Mudkips  07:35, 3 June 2008 (EDT)
 * yeah--reading the article linked to on user:The Gates Assassin's page about playing a sin was a lot of the inspiration for the build.--Reason.decrystallized 08:32, 3 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Hit->Run->Hit->Run->Hit->Run... until everyone's dead. XD -Mike 15:36, 3 June 2008 (EDT)

Res
where is it--Bim (talk|contribs) 15:06, 12 June 2008 (EDT)


 * ups theres an optional slot. Ojamo 15:35, 12 June 2008 (EDT)


 * Oh and lrn2read the notes section. Ojamo 15:36, 12 June 2008 (EDT)


 * Sometimes you have to point out the obvious to those who are blind.--[[Image:Relyk Purifying Veil Sig.jpg|19px]]R ELYK   ʞlɐʇ ʎɯ  22:05, 12 June 2008 (EDT)


 * i meant that res should be ON THE BAR... not optional. In PvE, if you are on a team, res is NOT optional --[[Image:Bim_sig.PNG|19px]]Bim (talk|contribs) 16:25, 22 June 2008 (EDT)
 * then say "on main bar plz" ;)--[[Image:Relyk Purifying Veil Sig.jpg|19px]]<font color="99CCFF">R ELYK   <font color="CCCCFF">ʞlɐʇ ʎɯ  20:34, 25 June 2008 (EDT)
 * or just carry res scrolls rather than blow a skill slot. that's sound advice no matter what you're playing.--Reason.decrystallized 20:52, 25 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Actually, I think a rez in PvE is more optional than in, say, RA. Firstly, sins are going to be the first to die. Secondly, most places (such as dungeons, vanquishes, etc) have rez shrines in case you do wipe, so it's not the end of the world. Thirdly, not having a rez allows you to fit more into your bar that you will ALWAYS use, instead of having a rez that you probably either won't need or won't get a chance to use like 95% of the time. Rezes are only "required" in PUGs, if you know your group well then it's hardly necessary.69.114.27.43 21:06, 13 September 2008 (EDT)
 * That's the point, though, most of us don't take the time to organize a group with people we know, and just PUG or go with Heroes and Henchmen (which I've always done). ــмıкε  нaшк  08:29, 14 September 2008 (EDT)

Assassins in General PvE
Useless amirite?
 * Try MS/DB; it's one of the strongest DPS builds out there, and this should be able to match that, but with a PvP-like chain (that's still dependable). -Mike 07:04, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
 * No, you are not right. And neither is your basic spelling.--71.67.243.230 13:40, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
 * If you want DPS on an assassin's promise build--->Note the build is NOT an assassin build, thus stressing the fact that assassins suck in general pve
 * lrn2sign. also, stop trolling.--Reason.decrystallized 14:47, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Armor is baed in HM, and so are most Elementalists because of it. -Mike 16:03, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Uhhh no? That doesn't even make sense--none of it does. I would elaborate but I'd be "trolling"--68.116.156.71 00:57, 15 June 2008 (EDT)
 * you said that assassins are useless in pve. then you said "none of this makes sense" to the comment "try MS/DB".  that's either a troll or an epic fail.--Reason.decrystallized 01:12, 15 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I say both. [[Image:Sebsig.jpg|19px]]  seb2winrar  (ʞ1ɐʇ)  04:00, 15 June 2008 (EDT)

omg get rez and then write to youtube: Weird Al' Amish Paradise


 * lol wut? Ojamo 10:25, 15 June 2008 (EDT)

saying sins fail in PvE means u dont know how to play a sin in PvE. given the right build they kick ass. oh and to prove it my alliance Leader made this vid
 * Jarad the Devarkin 18:51, 19 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Fixed that link for you. Drag  nmn   talk cont  02:15, 20 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Thank you for the assassin videos!!! I find a lot of people that thinks that assassins are bad in general PvE, than after a mission, they suddenly change idea...^ ^--LupoOmicida 10:19, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

Assassins are not bad for general PvE. Heres why: The only bad thing about sins is that they are (kinda) fleshy frontliners. If theyre smart, theyll bring Critical Agility, boosting their armor to about 90. This is lower than a warrior (with a shield), but only slightly. So, really, there is nothing wrong with sins. ---  Ressmonkey (talk)  17:04, 22 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Fast attack rate.
 * Assassins have the highest rate of attack of any profession with double strikes.
 * Good for gaining adrenalines. Since sins dont really use adrenaline, makes good SY! spammers.
 * Trigger Splinter Weapon, Barbs, and Mark of Pain at a very high rate. Also good for orders or Strength of Honor.
 * Has high damage with a MS/DB spam coupled with good energy management from criticals.
 * Critical Defenses is also very helpful. In all, MS/DB is one of the builds with the best DPS we have. -Mike 17:09, 22 June 2008 (EDT)


 * Sigh* a PvE Assassin build without Moebius Strike, Shadow Form, or Ursan Blesssing. Wtbursanswtsizzy 19:38, 25 June 2008 (EDT)
 * neither generic or n00bway. smells like phail.--Reason.decrystallized 19:39, 25 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Dunno why players who think MS/DB, or even dagger sins in general, have a high DPS. Dagger skills have plenty of +'s, which should be only a minor selling point. Without the +'s, daggers pale in comparison to the allmighty scythe (which works phenomenally well with crit sins). Not to mention that MS/DB is a dull bar that undermines the utilities that a sin can bring to a team (the build that is the topic of this discussion is an example, and a shining example of how sin should be in pve). Running MS/DB is like running a Cleave Axe bar.--74.129.227.63 01:37, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * additional damage ignores armor, unlike the base damage of a scythe. I'd still take the scythe, though, for better AoE (Death Blossom can't compete with a swing with GDW, SoH, and the like). ــѕт.  мıкε  01:41, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Vote Deletion
I for one think that a few votes could use deletion due to them not giving enough feedback or not understanding the point of this build, agree y/n?Sareth 15:06, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Such as...? --[[Image:GoD Wario Sig.PNG]]<font color="Black"> * Wah <font color="DAA520">Wah  Wah! * 15:07, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Votes such as the ones submitted by; Expenrienced, Xiay, The Gates Assassin, Lyssan55 & some of the less than one line high-rating votes, but that's my opinion as I feel these users are criticating this build is a wrong way, comparing it to different builds with a quite different usage. One thing that would be useful is to categorize this build as Hard Mode Recommended, as in Normal Mode you won't finish the chain until the end-game part, where monsters are more resistant to your damage.Sareth 15:14, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
 * I forgot to mention that I don't think your vote is correct, as Shadow Fang is not used as a source of consintent DW but rather a quick in-and-out shadowstep, the DW is provided by one of the variants, making this build very deadly.Sareth 15:19, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
 * the DW comes from Impale or finish him or twisting fangs. i run it with impale myself.--Reason.decrystallized 15:25, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Reliable DW needs to be in the main bar, and sacrificing your Res for it is stupid. An assload of things can't be KD'd in PvE, so that means that this is hardly versatile at all. Not to mention that Hex removal is decently common, which counters your build and gives you a 45 second downtime on a Shadowstep, or a 12 second recharge on your chain (which is bad for PvE). You also have no IAS, making it slow, and lacks good defense. --[[Image:GoD Wario Sig.PNG]]<font color="Black"> * Wah <font color="DAA520">Wah  Wah! * 15:32, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Res Scrolls ftw, no point in wasting one skill slot when you have scrolls, also remember Shadow Fang is a hex, so it acts as a cover for Assassin's, IAS & Defense can be applied by the optional.Sareth 15:34, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Wasting cash on Res Scrolls is awful when you can simply bring one skill. Still, removing Shadow Fang means you Shadowstep back and half to go back in and finish your chain. --[[Image:GoD Wario Sig.PNG]]<font color="Black"> * Wah <font color="DAA520">Wah  Wah! * 15:36, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
 * I prefer scrolls over the Signet, but everyone has preferences, but still, I think you should raise the effectiveness as per PvXwiki:Real Vetting you're rating how much damage this build deals (in this case), not efficiency.Sareth 15:39, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Isn't a build like this suppoed to have good damage to be efficient? It's so incredibly fragile, can't rip through mobs like MS/DB, easily countered, and generally lackluster. --[[Image:GoD Wario Sig.PNG]]<font color="Black"> * Wah <font color="DAA520">Wah  Wah! * 15:40, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
 * I don't see why you say it has bad damage, because it doesn't and this build has been designed for a different use so comparing it do MS/DB is not a good idea.Sareth 15:43, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Assassins in PvE are to kill. That's it. I don't see what "different use" you mean. PvE is made up of mobs. The goal is to kill mobs. MS/DB kills a mob faster, with more efficiency, with more survivability, quicker. --[[Image:GoD Wario Sig.PNG]]<font color="Black"> * Wah <font color="DAA520">Wah  Wah! * 15:44, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
 * I didn't explain myself properly with that, but it doesn't really matter, the point is, effectiveness is not efficiency, while DB/MS might be as much or more effective and effencient in your opinion, this build is also very effective, and does not deserve a 3 in that category in my eyes.Sareth 15:47, 1 August 2008 (EDT)

Asuran Scan
kill shit faster? It only affects attacks, though. ــмıкε нaшк  18:40, 8 August 2008 (EDT)
 * interesting thought ... does it increase bonus damage or just base damage? i've never used it, and wiki doesn't say.--Reason.decrystallized 19:57, 8 August 2008 (EDT)
 * I assume it includes all damage from attacks, but you'd have to test it. ــмıкε  нaшк  20:01, 8 August 2008 (EDT)
 * It increases all damage from all "attacks". Moloch 08:36, 14 September 2008 (EDT)


 * By Ural's Hammer imo, no nasty long aftercast. -- ›[[Image:Many srs beans.png|Srs Bean Mafia.]] <font color="#27408B">Srs Beans R Srs  08:39, 14 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Pretty big difference between the damage dealt tho, even if BUH amplifies YMLAD. Moloch 08:42, 14 September 2008 (EDT)


 * Since the target will die anyways, better to be quicker. You already prep for >2sec. -- ›[[Image:Many srs beans.png|Srs Bean Mafia.]] <font color="#27408B">Srs Beans R Srs  11:44, 16 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Instant activation on Asura Scan now (well, a while back now) Spaggage 14:37, 31 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Why does this have 3 kds?--[[Image:Relyk chtistmas2.jpg|20px]] Christmas Relyk  22:17, 5 January 2009 (EST)
 * Why are you blind?  Life [[Image:Aura of Faith.jpg|19px]] 22:25, 5 January 2009 (EST)

Wtf
is with well tag? thats what rating it is for.-- 23:43, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

ups
a) drunken master. b) BUH. c) run it with discordway for stupid win. ··· Danny   Does   Drugs  21:12, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
 * And you put those skills where exactly?[[Image:Signature-Liger414.png|19px]]<font color="SaddleBrown">The Liger  <font color="Darkgoldenrod">talk  08:50, 2 April 2009 (UTC) 21:14, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
 * fixed it. if you think it's bad, revert it, but it deals some retarded amount of damage, plus it has an IAS. ··· Danny   Does   Drugs  21:19, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
 * well it dealt retarded damage before, and the whole purpose of the shadow fang was to teleport in, spike and kill, auto teleport out of danger, and go back in again. the build nvr needed an increased attack speed.-- Jarad  the   Devarkin  00:51, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * attribute changes are so-so (13 is a DA breakpoint iirc) but drunken master is baed, and because of the way that YMLaD and KD work if you have an IAS up you actually have to wait before you hit trampling to get the second KD. DW is also kinda needed.  and Shadow Fang rawks--poofing around like a golfball in a tile bathroom is just fun.  but more than that, teleporting instantly to the next target and then poofing out again, losing aggro, is a VERY nice perk: it increases kill speed AND survivability, as well as being a cover hex (though in hex removal areas better dark prison).  reverting for now, and in general it's best to talk about multi-skill changes to a great-vetted build and reach consensus before changing.  though you're right that it destroys in discordway.--Reason.decrystallized 02:01, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Drunken Master is bad, but BUH! is good. Probably BUH!>Impale. I like Shadow Fang as well, because it fucks up enemy agro AI.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 02:05, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * IDK, i'd have to work the math ... impale is worth 90 armor-affected dmg + DW (a hundred effective dmg). If that's more than 25% of the chain dmg, then keep impale, otherwise BUH! might be viable, depending on mana (you cast BUH! at the beginning and have to cast on every chain--often mobs die before you use Impale, which is nice on energy).  Or else turn it back to an optional with BUH! and Impale and some other suggestions.--Reason.decrystallized 02:26, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * buh over impale imo--Relyk 02:33, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * BUH is fine on energy usually. Shit id usually dead after BoS anyways, so impale is wasted.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 03:34, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I feel kinda newbish for asking, but since i cant seem to figure it out on my own, What is BUH?-- Jarad  the   Devarkin  12:50, 25 April 2009 (UTC)


 * gw:"By Ural's Hammer!" --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  12:57, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * ah k, thanks.-- Jarad  the   Devarkin  21:20, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Aftercast delay Shadow Fang
Maybe the order on the bar should be altered, so that you cast Shadow Fang before YMLaD. If you do it the other way around, you're probably too late. 85.145.137.155 11:16, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Agree. You can change it yourself by the way. :p Selket Shadowdancer 13:12, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Heh, I know, but there are more bars I shuffle before using them, so I thought I'd get some consensus ;) (forgot to log in before I see) Firrail Caeless 18:42, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Well?
I saw the Well tag and was surprised. The shadow fang nerf didn't really hurt it (just time YMLAD differently), knocklock is really useful against support bosses, it has massive dps, shadowstepping disrupts melee mobs, and it's really fun to run. Why should it be deleted? <font color="Blue">My2Cents <font color="Blue"> Fighting ignorance since 1988. It's taking longer than I thought.  23:06, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * the shadow fang nerf didn't hurt the build in the slightest, the user skill usage just changes so you can get the initial knockdown, as for someone using this build, the author runs it, i have tested it and run it now and again, and anyone looking for a fun build to try would run it. i dont know how many times it has to be said that pve single target spiking does have its place, especially since this build is capable of spiking targets rather reliably, taking out troublesome caster enemies before they have a chance to be troublesome. tank and spank builds are not the only build team set ups out there and are certainly one of the lowest strategy based team setups which is why it is used most often in pugs. also, since this build is vetted as great, it should be archived not deleted if that was the intention of placing a well tag on it.-- Jarad  the   Devarkin  04:30, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Also, does anyone actually run this?
Hell yeah, try 2 sins running this + 6 discordway heroes = blows up shit faster then pretty much anything else. 75.92.46.118 05:44, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure a Wounding Strike sin with splinter on one of the heroes would be faster. Spaggage  talk  08:12, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * If you're running 6 discordway heroes, there's a half dozen ways to kill something faster and be more useful, really. ··· Danny   Does   Drugs  15:47, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * This is sooo baaeeeddd :< [[Image:Frostysig9000.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> the <font color="Blue">Admin 15:51, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

More domoge :> Brandnew 15:58, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * No teleport! -- <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Frosty  <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Mc Admin  01:45, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * get rid of trampling and spider, put in shadow dang and fh :D--Relyk 01:48, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * the build works very well for the majority of enemies you face, those not able to be knocked down are the minority. The point of the build is to be able to start in one spot and be able to "jump" from target to target, dealing a massive amount of damage while knocklocking them. I run this from time to time on my assassin and even if i screw up the AP its not that bad.-- Jarad  the   Devarkin  01:20, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Impale
Seems it's a PvE build wouldn't Finish Him be a better choice as the damage is armour ignoring and instant? Devika 11:38, September 6, 2009 (UTC)
 * Energy, I'd suppose. -- -Ch  ao  s-   11:42, September 6, 2009 (UTC)
 * If you're target calling with hero and hench (especially Discord) I doubt you'll get a full chain off to be honest which is where I think Finish Him would be more benficial. I think this build is ok but should probably be tweaked a little to fit into the current meta a bit more. Devika 14:56, September 6, 2009 (UTC)
 * PvE has a metagame? =P As for finish him it seems it would definitely be a better choice, the downside being the increased energy. The added benefit of using Impale is that you can get an effect out of it even if the opponent is above 50% which is rare but for high level bosses is helpful. Downside to Impale is that it must follow a dual attack. You do point out however that you doubt the full chain will be pulled off because the target will be dead which begs the question, why even use finish him? The biggest reason not to change the build in my opinion would simply be do to the fact that if you are aiming to use finish him on the target, you would be better off running a AP spike build more in line with what other classes use. This build's purpose is to jump around the battlefield spiking down targets using a very powerful attack chain that also knocklock's the target. Impale is used to finish off enemies who somehow survived it. As a side note if you check the variants section you will see that "Finish Him!" is already listed.-- Jarad  the   Devarkin  02:13, September 8, 2009 (UTC)
 * Ofc PvE has a meta. All the above, if the target's dead, you dont need finish him or impale.-- Ikimono "Mutton Chop Man" [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png|24px]] 03:20, September 8, 2009 (UTC)
 * I tend to think of the term metagame in terms of a PvP environment, with PvE being much broader in skill usage and less concerned with what the opposition will be bringing. I guess by the general definition you can use meta to mean the way particular skills and builds see lots of usage in PvE.-- Jarad  the   Devarkin  14:40, September 8, 2009 (UTC)
 * Stuff like UWSC, Droks runs and hero builds have obv metas. Player builds to a lesser extent, because people are too horrible to run good bars. -- -Ch  ao  s-   14:43, September 8, 2009 (UTC)
 * You still get overpowered sets of skills that are overused until they are nerfed. Cryway, permasins, 600smite, discordway and sabway are essentially PvE meta. <font color="Maroon">Athrun [[image:Athrun_Sig.gif]]<font color="Grey">Feya  14:46, September 8, 2009 (UTC)

Variations
And so we begin...

Slightly better bar compression giving an optional slot, while still delivering decent damage along with AoE, and hex cover.

[build prof=assas/any dagger=11+2 critic=8+1 deadly=11+1+1][Assassin's Promise][Asuran Scan][Shadow Fang]["You move like a dwarf!"][Falling Lotus Strike][Death Blossom][Finish Him][Optional][/build]

Trade Finish Him for Impale if you want to use another PvE skill. Devika 08:20, September 22, 2009 (UTC)

IMO one of the best parts of the original build is the double KD. Shit's dead before it has the chance to say "fuck me"! Srsly tho that variant looks legit but I prefer the original. --Franzwald 22:56, September 22, 2009 (UTC)

With SoH, shit should be dead. 23:17, September 22, 2009 (UTC)

Shouldn't this be "Great?"
After vote cleanup, the build has an overall of 4.76 (which advanced mathematics will tell you is >= 4.75 ^_^) Targren 15:41, October 7, 2009 (UTC)
 * It doesn't happen by itself, just change the word "Good" into "Great". -- -Chaos- (talk) -- 15:43, October 7, 2009 (UTC)

PVX:WELL
This is not a specced out discord spiker and just because it shares two skills with the generic discord spike (AP and YmlaD!) does not mean that it has any relation to that build. Heck, it was created before the discordway build was even posted. It was created to simply use AP to fuel a continuous spike all by its lonesome with its damage output. This WELL tag is a pathetic attempt to get rid of this build. If it does end up removing the build it sets a precedent which means that builds like Mark of Pain Nuker should be WELLed as well.-- Jarad  the   Devarkin  02:16, November 28, 2009 (UTC)


 * Assassins Promise Spiker, AP Illusion Mes, and Assassins Promise Nuker all fall into that same category of builds that use AP and therefore synergize well with the discord build because of the fact that it kills quickly.-- Jarad  the   Devarkin  02:25, November 28, 2009 (UTC)

Archive
This really isn't much better than js->ff->db chaining even though shadow fang is sexy. I really doubt more than a couple people used this anyways.-- Relyk  talk  20:21, September 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * Archive it. Super slow attack speed and reliance on AP and knockdowns makes this expodentially inferior to attack spammer and mobeious. Smity Smitington 20:28, September 30, 2010 (UTC)