Archive talk:A/W Backbreaker Sin



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 * Archive 1

Skill Order?
Why not falling spider before falling lotus? You will get minimal energy back if your first energy skill gives you all that back and more, would be better if falling spider was first. Only advantage I see in lotus being first is because you want poison to last for longer after the spike? I don't know, imo spider should be first. J ustin  6   23:00, 29 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Poison is needed to cover DW from Twisting. ~ ĐONT * SYSOP  00:55, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Target should blow up before they can remove DW if ur not a scrub at BB. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] ツ cedave</♦)
 * Falling Lotus is also better first if you're low on energy (e-denial from E-Sure, etc.) and there's a decent chance that someone other than your target may have condition removal. It really isn't a big deal, though. ــмıкε  нaшк  07:10, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Chances are that other person probably has Draw Conditions, RC, or Mending Touch, seeing as those skills are meta. And if I'm remembering right, I'm pretty sure all of those remove 2+ conditions. ups, guess your cover condition ain't doin' shit. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] ツ cedave   (☆contributions☆)  12:29, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Agreed to the above. This build (while pretty original and uncommon) is too fragile. Too much adrenaline requiredt to have draw conditions, FF, IJAFW, etc. rape this spike build.. or even better yet.. 3 seconds of disciplined stance right in the middle of activating attacks. This shit right here will get pwn'd very quickly as assassins are made of glass! --Ulterion 10:13, 25 December 2008 (EST)
 * Stop being one dimensional then! [[Image:Frostrage.jpg|19px]]Frosty po!  10:15, 25 December 2008 (EST)
 * Blow it out'cher ass! Don't make me rip your head off and shit down your neck. --Ulterion 20:47, 25 December 2008 (EST)

Archived
91 kb is a bit big. undo or change the archive template if you like. I just noticed this page was a little oversized. ツ cedave  (☆contributions☆)  12:42, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

Optimal hammer
Req8 vampiric hammer of fortitude, +15/-5 energy. Unfortunately my req8 hammer is +15%>50%, but it does ok. Dionyssios 07:29, 2 October 2008 (EDT)
 * If you have 9 Hammer Mastery, there's not point for a req8 Hammer, and 15^50 would probably be better. --[[Image:GoD_Hammer_and_Sickle.jpg|19px]]  Guild  of   Deals   07:37, 2 October 2008 (EDT)


 * 12-10-8 atts -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 09:37, 2 October 2008 (EDT)
 * How would a 15/-5 be worse than a 15^50? You're guaranteed the extra damage, and it's not like you really need energy while you've got the hammer out. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] ツ cedave   (☆contributions☆)  11:28, 2 October 2008 (EDT)


 * Mind Wrack sez hai. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 00:33, 3 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Uhhhhh, what? When did bad mesmer skills mean anything to anyone? - Auron 00:37, 3 October 2008 (EDT)
 * ^ ﮎHædõ๘ یíɳ [[image:Shadowsin_sig.PNG]] 00:46, 3 October 2008 (EDT)


 * Successful troll is successful. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 00:51, 3 October 2008 (EDT)
 * I really do not understand why 10 hammer mastery is needed for one hit....Life Guardian 01:16, 3 October 2008 (EDT)
 * It's more that you don't gain anything for 10 critical strikes. The breakpoint is 9 then 13, so 8+1 hits it and since you have absolutely no chance of hitting 13, you might as well do more damage for that one hit on the hammer, because the extra points in crit strikes do absolutely nothing. - Auron 01:19, 3 October 2008 (EDT)
 * You do get more damage from TF ;o but the extra damage from BB is better. -- Frosty [[Image:Mini england.jpg|19px]] 02:54, 3 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Plus, if you're like me and 3x knocklock a bastard, your hammer is gettin' a lot of use. Also, if you're like me and forget to put your hammer away after you're done spiking. ups I'm brave. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] ツ cedave   (☆contributions☆)  03:54, 3 October 2008 (EDT)

tl;dr: Why Falling Spider comes before Falling Lotus
For those of you not programming savvy, think up the meta condition removals, and then tell me if it's going to matter whether or not you cover DW. ツ cedave  (☆contributions☆)  14:45, 3 October 2008 (EDT)
 * yes but this is primarily a HB build, and in HB Mend Ailment is meta and thus Falling Spider is better, this is used more in HB then any other area so the version for that area should be stored. -- Frosty [[Image:Mini england.jpg|19px]] 14:47, 3 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Mend Ailment is meta? ups, i seem to notice a lot of mending touch. Also, this is used in TA, HA, and RA regularly, too. Mebbe it needs to be split? [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] ツ cedave   (☆contributions☆)  14:49, 3 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Well for hero monks atleast, maybe human monks not so much. -- Frosty [[Image:Mini england.jpg|19px]] 14:50, 3 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Well, mebbe. I tend to run MTouch on my heroes, too. Either way, Archive:Team - HB Spikeway and Archive:Team - HA Backbreaker both use Spider first. And the first one's the HB BB team. :P [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] ツ cedave   (☆contributions☆)  14:51, 3 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Lotus is better first, in all arenas pretty much. Rawrawr Dinosaur 14:55, 3 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Remind me again, does bleeding cover deep wound on TF? And the only real advantage of running Falling First is the little bit of damage from poison during the spike. -- Frosty [[Image:Mini england.jpg|19px]] 14:56, 3 October 2008 (EDT)
 * DW is over bleeding, so poison covers Rawrawr Dinosaur 14:57, 3 October 2008 (EDT)
 * ups, check ur meta condition removal skills again, yeye? [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] ツ cedave   (☆contributions☆)  19:46, 5 October 2008 (EDT)

Also, if you arent terrible at the bar you can just choose which one you wanna use first instead of mindless mashing of 123456. Rawrawr Dinosaur 15:04, 3 October 2008 (EDT) :P  B y  a  k  k  o   20:39, 3 October 2008 (EDT)

Nerf
Why not just raise hammer mastery to 12 and lower critical to 3?-- ツ The Gates  Assassin  18:53, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Some anon archived it. Fixed. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] ツ cedave   (☆contributions☆)  18:57, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

You can still do it with 3 second KD
so 12-9-9 is still viable. Saint 19:16, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
 * too risky if the monk uses shield bash midway during your spike. ☆Imbagon♥McSteve☆(LVPoW)Cuz Steve said so... ツ 19:19, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Would require more skill, BB SINS MAY REQUIRE SKILL!, also anyone notice the subtle FGJ! nerf :> -- Frosty [[Image:Mini england.jpg|19px]] 19:19, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Is this still viable after the nerf? omgosh, I dont wanna lose it :( Lol Joan Sandbox  19:23, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Tbh, you shouldn't need more than 8 seconds to build adrenaline with "FGJ!" It just means you get one extra BB after your first spike. ــмıкε  нaшк  19:25, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Worst case, run 12 hammer and 10+1+2 dagger. -35 health won't kill you. --71.229 19:25, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Mike, it's extra adren for one spike, it's not worth main bar now. -- Frosty [[Image:Mini england.jpg|19px]] 19:27, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Really, this is now really hard to pull off and not greatworthy anymore. Two key skills were nerfed. It's time to let go. I  is   * Je b us * [[image:IAmJebussig3.jpg|19px]]   Enter my contests! 19:31, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
 * dont archive a build just because its a little harder to do. people that dont suck should still have it here. @steve, that is a pointless comment, you could say that about any sin build..Saint 19:34, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
 * agree with above! it still great and the fact that is hard to pull off is gonna make it greater... not eveyrone would be able to run it now! Joan Sandbox  19:35, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
 * its not even hard to do, people need to go to nameless and try. just cancel after BB its still just like before, just without the breathing room of not canceling. Saint 19:38, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
 * It was already hard to use before. Now theres no breathing room at all. I  is   * Je b us * [[image:IAmJebussig3.jpg|19px]]   Enter my contests! 19:40, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Jebus, it was mindless before. I could do it in my sleep.  Now I actually have to pay attention.  Ohnoes! --71.229 19:42, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
 * jebus if you think it was hard before...ill stop myself from NPA. before you didnt even have to cancel swap, even bad people could do it with ease. now you have to know how to do it to run it, that shouldnt be an issue, still a "Great" build Saint 19:44, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
 * What concerns me the most is the time now it takes to build up 10 adren. It is quite bothersome, and LOONG. FGJ! basically reduced that time in half, the time you are most vulnerable, I must say this is quite an issue Joan <font color="Red">Sandbox  20:00, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Now that the build uses Dash on the main bar, you might as well take Flurry or Frenzy instead of Flail so you can build adrenaline quicker. ــмıкε  нaшк  20:04, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

(ri) user preferance and arena preferance tbh.my point is, just votewipe not archive. Saint 20:06, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
 * (ec) Just about to say that frenzy + dash > FGJ + Flail anyways... 76.64.121.145 20:07, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
 * (people who edit others' comments are ftl) 76.64.121.145 20:10, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
 * i fixed ur indent because i reset it a few lines up and you didnt realize. Saint 20:25, 9 October 2008 (EDT)

For fuck's sake
The build's still the same, you can take Dash now and just deal with the slower adrenaline, and the 16 points off of Twisting Fangs is probably going to be made up for by the additional Hammer Mastery. There's no need for a wipe or anything. ツ cedave  (☆contributions☆)  20:10, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
 * why even run 12 fucking hammer mastery when its doable with 3 second KD. same damage as old BB. if you REALLY want that extra second on the ground go for it, but bb is mostly about dmg and long kd, and ppl can sac 1 second of kd for more damage and trying a little harder to swap. Saint 20:22, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
 * It's definitely worth the negligible loss of damage for an extra second of KD. With that extra second of KD, you can pull off Blades of Steel before they get up. ــмıкε  нaшк  20:25, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
 * ^ I'm not even sure there is a loss of damage. The only loss if e-management, but if you're having e-problems, then you're fucking terrible. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] ツ cedave   (☆contributions☆)  20:32, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Energy has never been a problem for BB Sins, tbh. You'd get an extra 10 damage on average from your Hammer, too. XD
 * Now, should we mainbar Frenzy? You've got Dash as a cancel, so you can use that IAS to gain adrenaline faster before your spike (Flail wasn't great for this, but Flurry is) and you won't lose 25% on the base damage of your attacks (like Flurry). ــмıкε  нaшк  20:41, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
 * sins get damage from attack skills not daggers, so flurry works fine with or without dash. Saint 20:48, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
 * You still lose 30-40 damage on your spike by using Flurry, which is actually quite a bit. ــмıкε  нaшк  20:51, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
 * SOHSOHSOHSOHSOHSOH ﮎHædõ๘ یíɳ [[image:Shadowsin_sig.PNG|19px]] 00:59, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

wow, energy is hardddd now :> Brandnew.  04:16, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

I'm such a fag but Mokele Smash over FGJ yeye, 1 hit and your ready to break a back again.  ≈ Display   talk  06:16, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Heh, you're better off just auto-attacking with your Daggers, tbh. That 2 extra adrenaline won't really make a difference after you've had to attack with your Hammer, and then switch back to your Daggers, anyway. It would definitely have been worth it before the Mokele Smash rebalance/nerf, though. >.> ــмıкε  нaшк  07:07, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * 3 adren. Combo - cancel - hammer - Mokele - hit - spike. But yeah, whatever there are better options.  ≈ Display  [[Image:Godliest Table.png|10px]]  talk  08:53, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

Suggestion
Swap FGJ for Assassin's Remedy to wtfpwn Smoke Powder Defense and Weapon of Shadow. --Luuck 11:51, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Also maybe 11+1+1 Dagger, 12 Hammer, and 6+2 Critical Strikes, so you still hit the breakpoint for crit strikes.-  ḆỠḇỰ₤₳₮ỉờ₦  12:02, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Minus health runes are bad for sins, since you tend to blow up pretty fast anyway. More damage = dead shit = less shit to blow you up. AR wouldn't be terrible, but IMS/IAS is usually more win. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] ツ cedave   (☆contributions☆)  12:06, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * I almost never use major or sup runes, but for hitting the breakpoint and only going from from 620 to 585hp seems like it would be worth it.-  ḆỠḇỰ₤₳₮ỉờ₦  12:12, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * It is. A superior isn't worth it, but a major is fine.-- ツ <font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva" color ="black">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva" color="black">Assassin  12:41, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * You don't gain a whole lot from the crit strikes anyway. ﮎHædõ๘ یíɳ [[image:Shadowsin_sig.PNG|19px]] 13:35, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * 12 12 3 is a much better setup, The current one give you -35 health for e-management you do not need, your energy will have regenerated by the time you spike again... And the +damage from the hammer overwhelmes the loss of 6 damage from TF... -- Frosty [[Image:Mini england.jpg|19px]] 14:06, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * What about crit +dmg? Running 12 12 3 seems more awesome to me tho... Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] (<font color="Black">contributions  * sandbox ) 14:15, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * The plus crit damage is not worth loosing the health rly, and loosing out on the extra dagger mastery -- Frosty [[Image:Mini england.jpg|19px]] 14:18, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * @ Gates, THE EXTRA 4% CRIT BONUS IS HARDLY WORTH THE 35 HEALTH AND DAGGER DAMAGE REDUCTION. DONT BE BAD. CAPSLOCK IS COOL. ﮎHædõ๘ یíɳ [[image:Shadowsin_sig.PNG|19px]] 14:26, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Lol ur bad. The major was to make the break point for critical strikes at 8 so you gain 2 energy instead of 1. Pay attention.-- ツ <font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva" color ="black">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva" color="black">Assassin  15:02, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * But you don't need that energy... -- Frosty [[Image:Mini england.jpg|19px]] 15:03, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * How not...? Rawrawr Dinosaur 15:33, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Go into zealous after spike, I have never had energy problems running 12 12 3 without zealous. -- Frosty [[Image:Mini england.jpg|19px]] 15:35, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Ohai! Why even fag about 12 hammer, the spike works with 6. Only get +2dmg with 12 hammer, crits > +2dmg? Just don't fail at weapon swapping.  ≈ Display  [[Image:Godliest Table.png|10px]]  talk  16:01, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Read updates. --[[Image:GoD_Hammer_and_Sickle.jpg|19px]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps;font-family:Verdana;border-style:solid;border-width:2px;border-color:red;background-color:gold;padding:0px 5px 1px 6px;"> Guild  of   Deals   16:03, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * I've done that, still possible to spike with 3 sec KD.  ≈ Display  [[Image:Godliest Table.png|10px]]  talk  16:04, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * But what made the spike good was that you could finish them off with Blades of Steel as they get up. ــмıкε  нaшк  16:06, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * And you still can..  ≈ Display  [[Image:Godliest Table.png|10px]]  talk  16:06, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * With 4 seconds of KD, not 3. That second of KD you lost is another second for your target to try to heal itself. ــмıкε  нaшк  16:09, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Bb sin is alot better with 4s, as blades finishes before they can cast a spell, while with 3s they can rof/sb your blades. Rawrawr Dinosaur 16:11, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * (ec) Yes sir, I'll stop bitch now, no way I can pull this off and I don't want 20 mad wikifags qqing. Bye!  ≈ Display  [[Image:Godliest Table.png|10px]]  talk  16:13, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * (ecx2)It takes 3.52 seconds to pull off all 4 attacks, add in weapon swap and it will probably be 4 seconds, with 3 sec kd they have like a second to qq and heal up, the best thing about BB was the fact they couldn't heal after. -- Frosty [[Image:Mini england.jpg|19px]] 16:14, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Yess, thanks for taking the time to explain how the BB sin works, I feel beloved now.  ≈ Display  [[Image:Godliest Table.png|10px]]  talk  16:16, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

Let's start on a new line:

with 12 Hammer, 11+1+1 Dagger and 6+1 Crit currently seems like the best setup to me, at least for HB. Not too much with the breakpoints, simply overall a good spread. AR for anti-blind, and Falling Spider to cover DW. --Luuck 17:08, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * A) You're wrong. B) If you ever have energy issues, you're fucking terrible, so 3 Crits should be enough. C) The +1 in daggers does mean a tangible increase in damage, so 12+1+1 wins. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] ツ cedave   (☆contributions☆)  18:42, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Using twisting fangs twice in the same chain is leet but BoS does more dmg. Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] (<font color="Black">contributions  * sandbox ) 19:37, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * You aren't even hitting the 2en breakpoint, it's at eight. --71.229 19:43, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

atts are 11+1+1 dagger 12 hammer 7+2 crit stop being dumb Rawrawr Dinosaur 19:51, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * 6+2 -- Frosty [[Image:Mini england.jpg|19px]] 19:52, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * You guys are pretty terrible tbh. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] ツ cedave   (☆contributions☆)  22:22, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Sry, fixed the double TF. I said i didn't hit the breakpoint, it's just for some decent spread with extra dmg from TF and no health loss. Also, you get 5 removals from AR, which is great to keep your chain safe. --Luuck 07:50, 11 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Sorry cedave but you are wrong. Maybe if you tunnel vision spike then energy is fine. But how is energy fine with 3 crit when you use flurry every 5 seconds, full spike every 15 seconds and spider-> blades every 8 seconds? Its really not. Rawrawr Dinosaur 07:56, 11 October 2008 (EDT)
 * You're recharging Backbreaker quick enough to spike every time Falling Spider is recharged? You must be hacking shit tbh. Also, if you're not using Flurry, you're fine. ups? [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] ツ cedave   (☆contributions☆)  21:30, 12 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Also, before you niggers think I'm not using an IAS, stop being niggers and realize Frenzy and Flail are still options. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] ツ cedave   (☆contributions☆)  21:30, 12 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Another note: If you're using a Backbreaker Sin to pressure shit rather than spike shit, you're a fucking failure. Not to mention I recall an HA BBway team failing the other day because their sins couldn't spike shit dead before the monks stood back up and /healed shit. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] ツ cedave   (☆contributions☆)  21:32, 12 October 2008 (EDT)
 * 12/11+1+1/6+2>12/12+1+1/3+1. And if you think otherwise, what you're saying is that you should sacrifice far more energy and quite possibly a greater DPS for 35 extra health and about 12 more damage from Dagger Mastery. Higher crit strikes is just better. Error converting thumbnail:  Image:JebusSigNew.jpg  [[Image:IAmJebusSig5.jpg|20px]]<font size=0.5> Enter my contests!  21:56, 12 October 2008 (EDT)

attributes
12 hammer > 13 crit, wait.. wut?<font color="#009933">CloseImpact<font color="#003300"> Too Muh Bruh  17:10, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * BB was nerfed so that you need to put 12 into Hammer to get 4 seconds of KD. ــмıкε  нaшк  17:11, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * i'm epic, didn't notice <font color="#009933">Close[[Image:CloseImpactSW.jpg|19px]]Impact<font color="#003300"> Too Muh Bruh  17:13, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

Hmm I'm still convinced that falling lotus should be the first skill. Fastens the recharge of your chain, and an early apply of poison might give away your spike earlier, though that's just a detail. --Luuck 02:12, 13 October 2008 (EDT)
 * You don't have to change the skill order to do that-- Shadow [[Image:Relyk Sig.gif]] 03:38, 13 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Plus TF has a longer recharge than FLS. Error converting thumbnail:  Image:JebusSigNew.jpg  [[Image:IAmJebusSig5.jpg|20px]]<font size=0.5> Enter my contests!  19:06, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

attributes, LOL
Wow, talk about not knowing how to add. 11+1+1/12/6+2 -> 10+2+1/12/8. Yw. noobs. --Thc 20:13, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Actually, a 12/10/8 split nets you one more attribute point in total (12+11+6=29 while 12+10+8=30), so you can actually drop the Critical Strikes Rune for a Vitae. ــмıкε  нaшк  20:23, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Good call. ^^ ــмıкε  нaшк  20:23, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

Time to test W/A version
Out of curiosity, there might be a workaround for energy. With something like 10+1+1 Hammer Mastery, 12 Dagger Mastery and 8+1 Strength for armor penetration and full benefit of a shield when yielding the furious spear... at the risk of those idiots nerfing 4 assassin skills. Dionyssios 06:10, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

Guess what, it works. Way of the lotus not even needed really, but could be useful. Dionyssios 06:52, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Critical strikes provide a more or less equal damage increase over time as strength, perhaps more, since I can't be bothered to calculate. 2 pips of e regen is most definitely worse off than 4. There is no real benefit to use W/A over A/W, except maybe for armor.<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Pika <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Fan [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]] 09:21, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Backbreaker is only 4 seconds when put on 20 attribute now. This build should be trashed.(Callistotyler 23:06, 23 October 2008 (EDT))
 * Source? --71.229 23:09, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
 * 20 attrib is impossible anyway. Unless you had some glyph of elemental power/awaken the blood+superior rune+headpiece+blessing+consumable, but ur not a necro or an ele are u. The purpose of the build is to spike, and the lowered critical strikes impacts that little. It decreases the chance of a critical ever so slightly but its still lethal w/o criticals. Higher hammer mastery also means more damage from BB and the chance to actually have a high hammer critical. -- Jebus  contests  23:12, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Considering the update isn't for another ~15 days, you're probably shitting. Rawrawr Dinosaur 04:44, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
 * While unusable in PvP, 20+ hammer mastery is possible. Egg+Candy corn+Grail of Might+(Warrior of Balthazar and/or Hammer +1/20%). - [[Image:Panic_sig5.png]] 04:57, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
 * With a headpiece and superior, ofc. - [[Image:Panic_sig5.png]] 04:58, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
 * I think by "20 attribute", he actually means level 12, which costs 20 attribute points over level 11. In any case, he is horribly wrong. - Misery  Is  Friendly  [[image:Misery Dog obaby.gif|19px]] 04:59, 24 October 2008 (EDT)

something to consider... warriors look like total douchebags using daggers :P it's like snorlax using agility. <font face="Calibri" size="1"> - STAЯ ØŦ ΣX1LΣ 05:34, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
 * wow, wow, wow! ur compairing gw with pokémon? o_O then whats the ultimate pokemon for an assassin? XD82.72.233.33 17:51, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
 * That would be a piplup. Brandnew.  17:55, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
 * That would be the ultimate pokemon for every profession.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 17:57, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
 * The fact is, pokemon CAN and SHOULD be compared to GW whenever possible. [[Image:Tai_BA.jpg|19px]] <small style="border-style:solid;border-width:2px;border-color:black;padding:0px 5px 1px 6px;">Tai Sayacho  18:50, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Absolutely. The patron of fire eles is charizard, the water ele is articuno, and the earth ele is Ash being a complete idiot.--76.205.25.176 02:11, 30 October 2008 (EDT)
 * And what would grasping earth count as...--72.189.92.16 03:44, 30 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Turtwig. It slows you down wif its earthly wubliness. -- Jebus  contests  20:12, 30 October 2008 (EDT)

remove ra tag
it just takes to long to charge adren for ra battles. Illoyon 16:19, 2 November 2008 (EST)
 * 6 seconds is too long? Looooooooooooooool? 86.145.47.189 16:39, 2 November 2008 (EST)
 * Where do you get 6 seconds? with IAS it's like 10 seconds isn't it? Nvm, use daggers for adren :P [[Image:Tai_Sig_Image.png|19px]]<small style="border-style:solid;font-variant:small-caps;border-width:2px;border-color:black;padding:0px 5px 1px 6px;"><font size ="1" color="black" face="verdana">McTai  16:40, 2 November 2008 (EST)
 * Still, this build is like a snowballe effect thing. Once you get the adren fired up, you can just roll shit cause the chain itself recharges BB, but the beginning is tough and i kept dying in teams with a poor healer. Better suited for TA imo. -- Jebus  contests  17:36, 2 November 2008 (EST)
 * "i kept dying in teams with a poor healer" - that can be said about any build in RA [[Image:Tai_Sig_Image.png|19px]]<small style="border-style:solid;font-variant:small-caps;border-width:2px;border-color:black;padding:0px 5px 1px 6px;"><font size ="1" color="black" face="verdana">McTai  17:42, 2 November 2008 (EST)
 * nah i meant that other builds can spike immediately and start killing, this takes a while to build up adren and in that time is vulnerable; other builds shadowstep in, spike, and kite out. -- Jebus  contests  17:50, 2 November 2008 (EST)
 * (EC)Or you use flurry and bring a furious spear. Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] (<font color="Black">contributions  * sandbox ) 17:51, 2 November 2008 (EST)
 * and then you get assraped by casters. Oh look, an assassin standing there chucking a spear attempting to build adrenaline! I'm just going to completely ignore him until he becomes a threat. Right... -- Jebus  contests
 * Once again, it's RA... people really just aren't that smart. They would think it was perfectly normal. [[Image:Tai_Sig_Image.png|19px]]<small style="border-style:solid;font-variant:small-caps;border-width:2px;border-color:black;padding:0px 5px 1px 6px;"><font size ="1" color="black" face="verdana">McTai  17:58, 2 November 2008 (EST)
 * Meh, not everyone is bad in RA. People are actually getting better, although there is the occasional ride the lightning warrior spiker. -- Jebus  contests  18:06, 2 November 2008 (EST)
 * No, it's you getting worse :D Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] (<font color="Black">contributions  * sandbox ) 18:12, 2 November 2008 (EST)
 * Actually, its me, since i cant get the fking chain off-- Shadow [[Image:Relyk Sig.gif]] 18:29, 2 November 2008 (EST)
 * As soon as I stop seeing paragons using Healing Breeze and Orison of Healing in RA i'll say that RA is getting better.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">Thinks before commenting [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 18:55, 2 November 2008 (EST)
 * For that matter, as soon as I stop seeing Rangers with Flare, Monks using attack skills, ritualists trying to be mesmers, mesmers trying to be warriors, dervishes trying to be assassins, ect.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">Thinks before commenting [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 19:02, 2 November 2008 (EST)
 * And Sins using Hammers... ــмıкε  нaшк  19:04, 2 November 2008 (EST)
 * GRENTHUMPERRRRR -- Jebus  contests  19:55, 2 November 2008 (EST)
 * hahaha jebus i had to laugh when i saw ur comment...not to sound like a complete fuckin noob but i actually tested a grenth thumper build...didnt work out so well User:Vermilion 1:39, 2 December 2008 (EST)
 * When I hear that a whole list of build designs flew through my head...none of them seemed to be any good though...-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">Gaston was a Paragon... [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 05:13, 2 December 2008 (EST)

Fail
This build = fail for RA
 * Sign your comments, and RA is one of the lowest forms of PvP. -- Jebus  contests  15:04, 15 November 2008 (EST)
 * No it's not, u can show off ur skill by 1 v 1 another warrior as ur warrior and whoever tanks better wins, demonstrating ur superiority over others as a warrior tank [[Image:Muffin.jpg|19px]]<font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  16:13, 15 November 2008 (EST)

Please tell me that was sarcasm? BB is just BARELY viable for RA, so long as you have a monk that will keep you alive long enough to build adren, which is extremely rare. Disciple 17:06, 15 November 2008 (EST)
 * Its not that rare, 1/3 times you get 10. -- Frosty [[Image:Mini england.jpg|19px]] 17:09, 15 November 2008 (EST)

Wow, Disciple and Mr. Unsigned are bad. --71.229 17:26, 15 November 2008 (EST)

Disciple is informed. Disciple owns with BB in HB. Disciples gets raped with BB in RA. Disciple 21:27, 15 November 2008 (EST)
 * Disciple is bad at RA then. --71.229 21:58, 15 November 2008 (EST)
 * no, this build just is very hard to use in RA. it has no self survival skills at all, and if you get blinded without a monk, you're done.--72.189.85.14 14:20, 22 November 2008 (EST)
 * I agree. Take Healing Hands over BB. (y)  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 14:24, 22 November 2008 (EST)
 * You mean healing breeze and mending don't you? +10 regen makes you invincible... or! they're just bad Dutchess of Rose aka  lukejohnson  - talk 14:33, 22 November 2008 (EST)
 * OMG Shock Axe has no self-heal 0-0-0.--<font color="Blue">TheHunger <font color="ForestGreen">talk  <font color="ForestGreen">''My contributions  15:31, 22 November 2008 (EST)
 * don't forget shock is a costly interrupt. and has no defence agaisnt anti-melee Dutchess of Rose  aka  lukejohnson  - talk 15:36, 22 November 2008 (EST)

Luke? What? x_x. And the problem with BB in RA is not that it has no self heals, it's the fact that it takes 5-7 seconds to charge BB, and without a monk, at that point you would have very little possibility to do anything. Also, there is not enough coordination to strip enchants. It would take a horrible monk not to use guardian, shield bash, or disciplined stance to block you and make you have to recharge adren. And to those of you who say "wtf u stupid disciple they nocked down how they use guardian" it's called pre-protting, any monk with half a brain will be able to recognize a BB sin and prepare for his shadow step. Disciple 15:41, 22 November 2008 (EST)
 * You say that, and yet I have no trouble using BB sins in RA. --71.229 15:45, 22 November 2008 (EST)
 * You dont jsut attack the monk you know. there are other targets? Dutchess of Rose  aka  lukejohnson  - talk 15:47, 22 November 2008 (EST)

Guardian can be cast on other targets you know? And mister IP #, I'm not doubting that this works with a monk, please be more specific. Are you saying it works when you are with a monk? All the time? When the other time doesn't have a monk? Disciple 15:54, 22 November 2008 (EST)
 * Must be some epicly psychic monk if he knows what target the BB sin will Shadowstep too. Also, if you're good you'll recognize the preprot and pick another target.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 16:09, 22 November 2008 (EST)
 * It works about as regularly as any other melee character, except it gets kills more often. --71.229 16:54, 22 November 2008 (EST)

Take Bonetti's Defense instead of dash if u want to a little bit of defense in RA 75.155.197.157 21:41, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Runes
Does it add something to add a critical strike rune ? That +2 dagger mastery is really needed ?

If I remind right, I am using the build with 12-10-8 but only with +1+1 on daggers and +1 on crit. Stoella 11:27, 26 November 2008 (EST)
 * U ned +2 for 13 dagger mastery, which is breakpoint of blades of steel-- Shadow [[Image:Relyk Sig.gif]] 11:28, 26 November 2008 (EST)

What about a critical strike rune ? Stoella 13:12, 26 November 2008 (EST)
 * 9 crit is really no better than 8 [[Image:Zefirsig.jpg|19px]] God Zefir  13:16, 26 November 2008 (EST)

It's 1% crit chance versus 10 hp then ? Stoella 15:46, 26 November 2008 (EST)
 * You said it. The hp is better. Tbh this would even work at 3 critical strikes and 12 hammer mastery, but overall the slightly higher critical strikes results in little loss of damage and a small loss of health, but contributes to energy and damage more. -- Jebus  contests  18:39, 26 November 2008 (EST)
 * And it means more spikes. --<font color="Black">F rosty 18:47, 26 November 2008 (EST)

Then ... there's the possibility of dropping main attrib for one skill *_* Stoella 13:13, 27 November 2008 (EST)
 * Assassin primary means more energy and better damage, switching to a warrior primary adds only slightly more damage from strength cause of the low damage range of daggers, and the armor bonus is good, but the energy with a sin is better. -- Jebus  contests  13:37, 27 November 2008 (EST)

I meant, maybe try with a support skill using another attrib ? Stoella 16:09, 28 November 2008 (EST)
 * Critical strikes is nice for spiking, not only because of the crit hit capabilities but mostly because of the energy gain. Remember that hitting a foe in the back is always a critical hit. Besides, with the extra energy you can spike every 8 seconds instead of every 15. BB~>FS~>TF~>FLS~>BoS, then backbreaker should be charged or near charged. Then spike with BB~>FS~>BoS for a nice mini spike. -- Jebus  contests  16:20, 28 November 2008 (EST)

disrupting dagger
if it's going to be on main bar, change att spread-- Shadow Relyk  01:59, 30 November 2008 (EST)
 * Meh all you need to do is put whatever leftover atts you have into deadly, no put in spec atts into deadly just for extra damage on disrupting--<font color=#C68E17>Golden [[image:Goldenstar.JPG|19px]]<font color=#C68E17>Star 02:03, 30 November 2008 (EST)
 * Disrupting dagger is like D-Shot. it can work to it's full potential with 0 attributes stuck into it.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">Gaston was a Paragon... [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 02:22, 30 November 2008 (EST)

D dagger
Out of main bar please. There's so many other things to take (FGJ (even after nerf, yes), Dark Prison, Warrior's Cunning, Mokele Smash etc.) that there's no reason to just pick one and put it in main bar. Smurf Ohai 12:09, 9 December 2008 (EST)
 * for HB maybe run something else, but ddagger is win for tombs and even TA--<font color=#C68E17>Golden [[image:Goldenstar.JPG|19px]]<font color=#C68E17>Star 17:17, 25 December 2008 (EST)

Usage, ESC
Is not ESC necessary after the weap swap to speed it up? I've always used it, & could've sworn it was necessary to bypass the swapping delay. Does a queued attack skill do the same thing? - insidious  420  12:45, 9 December 2008 (EST)
 * It is neccassary, but you sentence lacks sense. --<font color="Black">F rosty 12:50, 9 December 2008 (EST)
 * My sentence made perfect sense. Regardless, why was my Usage edit reverted, if you do in fact need ESC after the weap swap? -  insidious  420  12:58, 9 December 2008 (EST)
 * meh, I press 'd' or 's' instead, but I think that costs extra time. Brandnew.  13:04, 9 December 2008 (EST)
 * Oh you ment pressing escape after you have swapped, no doing that gains no extra time, you only use escape to cancel the hammer swing, so you can swap to you daggers quickly once you are on your daggers you just chain away. --<font color="Black">F rosty 13:15, 9 December 2008 (EST)
 * You don't press escape afterwards (well you can, but it actually slows it down) you press escape mid BB swing. Makes no lag. Rawrawr Dinosaur 13:54, 9 December 2008 (EST)
 * Ahh thanks for the clarification. All this time I thought ESC was absolutely necessary after hitting the weap swap key to speed it up. -  insidious  420  14:32, 9 December 2008 (EST)

After the above conversation, I'm still confused about using ESC, as the note in this build page states "The Escape Key is set by default to cancel all actions, including the delay time between weapon swapping, causing there to be almost no delay in swapping weapons." This is exactly how I thought weap swap + ESC worked & matches what I've read elsewhere. So why are all the above comments 100% contrary to this note? Personally IDC, cuz I've always used ESC after BB & after weap swap which works fine, I just think this is a curious contradiction here & haven't been able to play in a few days to test what's quicker. - insidious  420  12:29, 10 December 2008 (EST)
 * Swap to hammer -> Press backbreaker -> in the middle of backbreaker, escape, -> daggers + chain. Rawrawr Dinosaur 12:30, 10 December 2008 (EST)
 * Insidious, if you try to switch weapons while attacking, there will be a delay, that is why you press escape (to cancel your attacking) then switch. Once you have switched to your daggers there is no point in pressing escape as there is no delay to cancel out. --<font color="Black">F rosty 13:38, 10 December 2008 (EST)
 * In other words - When ready/charged up, click on BB, (hit esc to cancel swinging on your hammer and prepare for weapon-swapping), click on dagger set (do not hit esc.), click on your attack skills in the proper order (without hitting escape). Kapeesh? --Ulterion 10:30, 25 December 2008 (EST)
 * It looks cooler if you sidestep instead of pressing esc though. [[Image:Railin-WoH.jpg‎|19px]] <font color="#033361">Railin 16:58, 25 December 2008 (EST)
 * It's also slower than esc meaning your target gets up b4 blades finishes--<font color=#C68E17>Golden [[image:Goldenstar.JPG|19px]]<font color=#C68E17>Star 17:13, 25 December 2008 (EST)
 * If you do it wrong.. lol. It's just as fast. [[Image:Railin-WoH.jpg‎|19px]] <font color="#033361">Railin 17:37, 25 December 2008 (EST)
 * No...it's not, esc mid backbreaker is def faster than sidestep--<font color=#C68E17>Golden [[image:Goldenstar.JPG|19px]]<font color=#C68E17>Star 18:09, 25 December 2008 (EST)
 * How about less fail? Use BB while positioned behind the target? GG? --Ulterion 23:14, 25 December 2008 (EST)
 * what?--<font color=#C68E17>Golden [[image:Goldenstar.JPG|19px]]<font color=#C68E17>Star 23:15, 25 December 2008 (EST)
 * I'm not even going to argue.. lol [[Image:Railin-WoH.jpg‎|19px]] <font color="#033361">Railin 04:44, 26 December 2008 (EST)
 * Weapon Swapping is faster when your behind a target! What are you eager to swap to your Sundering Penis of Faginess to ram that guy! [[Image:Frostrage.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> po!  05:40, 26 December 2008 (EST)
 * Can u hit people in the back when they stand still?--[[Image:Relyk chtistmas2.jpg|20px]] Christmas Relyk  00:01, 6 January 2009 (EST)

This build has seen no more usage in RA. Too much cool down, trouble, predictability (once identified), etc... :/ --BlazingBurdy 23:17, 30 January 2009 (EST)

sorry but BB sin is way better then any other spike builds. i use it all the time. try spiking a 60 al in RA with a monk in their team. they wont realise when you spike and if they do, they'd only cast patient spirit but before PS can end, hes already dead. works all the time--Lusciious 06:45, 9 February 2009 (EST)
 * i agree, imo the BB sin is the best spiking build in the game still.-- Ikimono <font color ="Teal">Needs more Paragon [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png]] 07:12, 9 February 2009 (EST)
 * BB OWNZZZZZZZZZZ. It was better before the Backbreaker nerf but it's still amazing. [[Image:Shino sig.png]] 14:39, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Takes too much energy to counter bb sins on other teammates-I had to quickly cast woh followed by patient+draw [[Image:Muffin.jpg|19px]]<font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  18:39, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Or just pre-prot with SoA, Guardian, or Protective spirit... [[Image:Shino sig.png]] 16:16, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The sin can just autoattack you then spike someone when you prot yourself tbh.
 * Muffin: Bad monk! BAAD! Patient->DRAW(before PS ends)->WoH for spike-heal (or) Draw->PS->WoH. Worst case scenario: Draw->WoH->PS. You heal through dw and that's 20% healing lost! ~.^ --BlazingBurdy 17:02, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Or...just use Dismiss Condition to remove the Deep Wound because it's applied after bleeding with Twisting Fangs. Then use PS or WoH. [[Image:Shino sig.png]] 14:18, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
 * or guardian -> draw -> sig of rejuv and let him regen. Railin 18:30, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
 * whenever i face a bb team, there's always a freaking ele on their team casting rogdorts on my crumbled together teammates, so that woh is necessary [[Image:Muffin.jpg|19px]]<font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  18:31, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

flail got nerfed
looks like it's frenzy and flurry now. :( -- Ikimono <font color ="Teal">Needs more Paragon 17:05, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks like normal sin builds nao. --BlazingBurdy 23:07, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Why not 12+1+1 dagger mastery
5% more to crit and 1 extra en every cirt? 8 crit is a waste. --140.128.67.248 04:46, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Breakpoints are fun, and twisting fangs is crit as well.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 04:53, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * If 1 extra energy isn't anything, let's just not even bother to get the extra 1 at thirteen. --<font color=Orange face="Comic Sans MS">Shazzy diddles 04:55, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * this doesnt need the 2 nrg crits.............get it into ur minds ppl.......use lotus AFTER tf and u dont even need 3 crit.......--<font color="Blue">BLUE <font color="Blue">SMASH  <font color="Blue">ALL  00:35, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * If you're not using crit at all, you might as well be a warrior =/  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 00:42, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * If you spam frenzy, dash, then use blades - falling spider inbetween every full spike, ya you really need the crit strikes. 8 crit also equals more damage cuz you'll crit way more, but like 1 more dagger mastery adds 2 damage or something stupid. Rawrawr Dinosaur 01:46, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

"fgj"
instead of dash for RA. It gives you a chance to get a chain off before everyone tries to kill you.--Simpson man 01:47, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * no. Roland Cyerni 01:49, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * explain.--Simpson man 02:02, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Not really worth it. [[Image:Zyke-Sig.png]] 02:25, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It lasts 8 seconds, and recharges in 45. Use a pair of daggers and auto-attack a monk, or a war. You will build adrenaline fast enough. <font color="Black">Drah <font color="DarkRed">Mc <font color="Black">Ninja  05:03, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * mokele smash or w/e the 2 adren hammer attack would be better.--<FONT COLOR="#347235">|[[Image:Hipowi_sig.jpg]] Hipowi  pew pew pew </FONT> 22:55, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Not so much, Just have furious daggers with you, they do the trick pretty well.-- Ikimono "a rabid grizzly bear" [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png|24px]] 08:54, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

critical strikes rune
+10 HP>+1% crit? 74.244.17.119 05:27, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Duh--Goldenstar 12:11, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Btw hi saint--Goldenstar 12:12, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * What's with the 8 CS vice 14 dags? Is energy > 14 dags? Or...? --BlazingBurdy 00:15, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You need the 2 energy break from crit strikes or energy will be bad. -- <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Frosty  <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Mc Admin  00:35, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * In other words, yes being able to use your skills is better than being able to auto attack for slightly more. Drahgal Meir 00:38, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I run 3+1 CS on my bb sin and do absolutely just fine (even with e-denial). You're all just doin' it wrong. --BlazingBurdy 02:09, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd honestly take Smurf's advice over yours, seeing as he has one a good 2 (at least) mAT's using a BB sin before mAT got completelty retarded. -- <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Frosty  <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Mc Admin  02:11, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I couldn't read your English through all the retardation. *won *two *completely? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] {&#123;Bacon}} 05:08, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It was 3am. -- <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Frosty  <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Mc Admin  10:06, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Smurf winning mAT's isn't a good enough reason to change to a shittier template. I'm sticking with the initial, stronger configuration of max daggers and 3-4 CS. Kthnx. --BlazingBurdy 11:50, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Additionally, doesn't this shittier variant need a +1 cs to counter weakness' -1? One Devastating Hammer or Enfeeble can defeat this fail attempt at 2e hits gains easy as pie. I srsly don't see why ya'll are saccing armore-ignoring dag d0m0gez for a mere 18% (at 8+1 cs) total critical strike rating without even securing this e-gain with a +1 rune. --BlazingBurdy 12:22, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Smurf being one of the best BB sins in the game is though. however +1 Crit Strikes should be used. -- <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Frosty  <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Mc Admin  12:28, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I found that comment amusing. What makes him the best bbsin? The fact that he can weapon swap or what? I can't argue with the fact that he might be one of the best bbsins in HB but BlazingBurdy still got a valid point. There's no need to start a shitstorm now, just saying.  ≈ Display  [[Image:Godliest Table.png|10px]]  talk  13:12, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * When everybody was using lameway he still won mAT's with BB (when nobody else could), it's generally known that Smurf is one of the best BB sins in GW, although I don't even know if he plays anymore. Also, he told me his mother created the BB sin, and handed it to him as she couldn't weapon swap! Also, Display there is a lot more to playing a BB sin then just being able to do the simple chain. -- <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Frosty  <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Mc Admin  14:43, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Frosty, I'm pretty sure it's hard to tell who the best BB sin in the game is since it's a shitter's bar anywhere other than HB, and since it's a really easy bar to play the differences between the "best" and somebody good will be unnoticeable anywhere other than HB. Unless of course you are just referring to HB, in which case yea Smurf is one of the best :> (along with Juju!) --Crow 15:12, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * At Frosty. No it's not. You have to watch the field, but you should be doing that on every class, not just the bbsin. I bet Smurf is a motherfucker at flagging his heroes and [insert stuff HB:ers does]. Saying "xxx is the best xxx in game" is just hillarious.  ≈ Display  [[Image:Godliest Table.png|10px]]  talk  15:51, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Well if none else does it with precise perfection and at the exactly right moment on the exactly right person, reacting immediately if something happens? -- -Ch  ao  s-   16:03, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I never said he was "the" best, I always said "one" of the best. And that is true Crow, but if we are talking about what attributes to take on a backbreaker assassin I would listen to the person who has used/abused it the most with the most success. -- <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Frosty  <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Mc Admin  16:56, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * lololol @ "everyone should use every build the way the best players in the game do". That said, if you're not bad, you should use the crits rune, end of subject. See also: Rawr's comment two sections up. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] {&#123;Bacon}} 17:56, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * or you use 12 dagger mastery and 3 crit and bring a pair of zealous daggers because that whole 6 percent isn't making a game-breaking difference, but that last bit of damage can always help. ··· [[File:Dannycbf.PNG]] 18:03, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Berserker's Stance...
...has been the FGJ of my BB Sin Variant (33% IAS + 50% Adren-dren for 5 seconds and 20 second recharge) for more BB and less running away [with Dash]. What say the rest of the PvX dickheadz? Yei or Nei? --BlazingBurdy 00:51, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * lol that's actually not a bad idea. ~ Big  [[Image:Big sadface sig.PNG]]  sysop  00:53, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Read archives more--Relyk 22:55, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * and I'm sure that was for adrenaline gain. I use it over Dash. And I rape RA. <3 ~ Big  [[Image:Big sadface sig.PNG]]  sysop  07:31, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I know my reply is late, so =P in advance, but the template in your prescribed archives is baed (no flurry!). If you meant to state the obvious about "it's already been suggested"? It's okie cuz I never recalled stating myself as the originator. I merely imply to maybe mainbar or add to variants since it's a very effective suppliment to bb. BlazingBurdy 06:13, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Is there a reason why BS still isn't listed as a variant? Also, would Warrior's Cunning be worth mentioning? I find it rly useful vs Escape fags (RA) & standard monk blocking, even with the 60s recharge. ~ 420  16:08, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

W/A with 3 Stonefist Insignias
Would this work? It could make the KD last 6 or 7 seconds. Or am I missing something?
 * pretty sure stonefists dont stack or make KD last longer than 4 seconds Sir Nothing 04:05, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Ah ok my bad. I missed the non stacking part. But even 1 wouldn't make it a 5 second KD?
 * Stonefist doesn't stack past 3. [[Image:Zyke-Sig.png]] 04:08, 7 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, if you actually read the description on the stonefist insignia, it says "(Maximum:3 Seconds) (non stacking). Drahgal Meir 04:10, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

it would be pretty damn awesome though Funkopotomis 22:37, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * ye, and completely balanced too -- -Ch  ao  s-   23:22, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Wut are u talking about that wouldnt be balanced, that would be underpowered. A single skill that can kd +5 seconds is terrible [[Image:Muffin.jpg|19px]]<font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  00:53, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * 9 second kds are exactly what this game needs. --<font color="Green">Oj <font color="Green">▲ <font color="Green">mo  02:02, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Muffin, it's called sarcasm... -- <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Frosty  <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Mc Admin  09:41, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * knocklock :<--Relyk 09:54, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * wtf are u talking about frosty read my message again it is sarcasm [[Image:Muffin.jpg|19px]]<font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  17:00, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Pretty sure he was talking about what chaos said. Drahgal Meir 17:19, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * "Muffin, it's called sarcasm." [[Image:Muffin.jpg|19px]]<font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  17:20, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You're fucking stupid learn english Reunion 17:37, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * That was terrible grammar. Drahgal Meir 17:39, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Prty sure grammar has alot to do with not understanding english. Reunion 17:41, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Says a person who doesn't understand grammar [[Image:Muffin.jpg|19px]]<font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  17:48, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha this section is epic. It starts on him not understanding sarcasm and he defends himself while still showing he doesnt understand it :P Reunion 17:49, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * "Wut are u talking about that wouldnt be balanced, that would be underpowered. A single skill that can kd +5 seconds is terrible" I SAID A single skill with +5 sec kd = udnerpowereed, hows that NOT sarcasm?!?!?! [[Image:Muffin.jpg|19px]]<font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  17:54, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think ur the one that needs to learn english [[Image:Muffin.jpg|19px]]<font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  17:54, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * .....How have you not yet understood why you're wrong yet? And I'm in my second year in UoSunderland doing English Language and Linguistics, so i somehow doubt that. Reunion 17:58, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Then plz enlighten me [[Image:Muffin.jpg|19px]]<font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  18:01, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * He was talking about you not understanding Chaos' sarcasm, and while you thought he meant you, even when Drah suggested it was Chaos' sarcasm he meant you also didn't understand what Drah meant thinking that the Frosty comment was directed at Chaos. Reunion 18:05, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Long sentence is overly long. Reunion 18:09, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * And i was talking about me understainding chaos' sarcasm and was only replying to frosty, not drah [[Image:Muffin.jpg|19px]]<font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  18:10, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I replied to frosty who didnt understand that i was being sarcastic [[Image:Muffin.jpg|19px]]<font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  18:11, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * That isn't what you said :\ And frosty at no point brings into question you not being sarcastic in your first comment. I still don't think you get it o_0 Reunion 18:13, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Frosted sayd "Muffin, it's sarcasm" assuming i didnt understand chaos' sarcasm, even though after chaos said it i said that an extra +5 sec on a kd isnt great, which is sarcasm. [[Image:Muffin.jpg|19px]]<font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  18:16, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The point is I understood Chaos's sarcasm so I pointed out that an extra 5 sec of kd is bad (which is replying with sarcasm), but Frosty didnt understand i was sarcastic, then right afterwards, You posted a NPA response which led to this long discussion [[Image:Muffin.jpg|19px]]<font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  18:18, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The dumb bit you did was when you quoted me after Drah said I was talking about Chaos, it made it look like you thought I was directly talking to you. -- <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Frosty  <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Mc Admin  18:42, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

I misread underpowered for overpowered, my bad. lol drama. -- <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Frosty  <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Mc Admin  18:29, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * This is just... Retarded... Highfive? Also, lolpvx. -- -Ch  ao  s-   19:04, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * i win the argument yay! *gets a cookie* [[Image:Muffin.jpg|19px]]<font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  19:21, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * reunion you fail at english, quit life. i would suggest you actually attend that class before you use it to back up your fallacies 20:05, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * lol? And you can tell how good at linguistics I am via a game website? Can you actually give a real reason or what? Reunion 20:28, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Because people communicate on the internet through typing! O_O Weird shit, huh? -- -Ch  ao  s-   20:40, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Either Wafflez is trolling or he's a dumb nigger. Also, either Reunion is trolling or he's a dumb nigger. Linguistics isn't anywhere close the topic you guys are on about. Not that it matters because no one gives a fuck and we're all terrible at a dead game that most of us don't even play anymore. ··· [[File:Dannycbf.PNG]] 18:21, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * lol, ur all terrible--Relyk 18:39, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * no u [[Image:Muffin.jpg|19px]]<font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  18:57, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

The more superior and the more flexible KD hammer sin
Att's go where they belong, Soul reaping ofc, nah just kiddin. Any comments? If you switch fast enough you can get both Kd's without your target being able to get away.81.206.79.118 13:37, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * So you waste 2 skill slots where backbreaker does it in one :/ -- <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Frosty  <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Mc Admin  13:45, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * More complicated chain that's less likely to do what backbreaker does while simultaneously losing IMS? No thanks. Without dash any prot with half a brain will shut your spike down sin you won't be able to fake it worth anything--TahiriVeila 13:48, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Also with hammer bash you're spending much more time building adren. With Backbreaker, i'm already halfway built by the time i've finished my chain and can BB one more time and still have it charged again for falling spider + BoS recharge--TahiriVeila 13:53, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Also that bar blows. Use a real chain.
 * Even though I think that ones vetted already. ~ Big  [[Image:Big sadface sig.PNG]]  sysop  13:57, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I've run that in HB. It can work but i still find it's not as effective as BB--TahiriVeila 14:01, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * HB is just WEWK and D/A bullshit now. :< ··· [[File:Dannycbf.PNG]] 16:06, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * HB is just WEWK and D/A bullshit now. :< ··· [[File:Dannycbf.PNG]] 16:06, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

still meta?
after HB got killed? Illoyon 17:12, November 9, 2009 (UTC)
 * Look at what it's tagged for. <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">17:16, 9 November 2009

BB nerf
"Backbreaker: decreased adrenaline cost to 9; changed functionality to: "Elite Hammer Attack. If Backbreaker hits, you strike for +1...16...20 damage and your target is knocked down. This knockdown lasts 4 seconds if you have at least 8 Strength." Source: http://www.guildwars.com/support/gameupdates/default.php
 * Who would have though that a massive gray template on top of the build which says "This build has been archived because game update which everyone heard about" wouldn't have been enough. -- Chaos?  -- 22:48, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

Bye bye BB sin, it was fun! --Barbie of Kryta 00:01, February 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * A/W Brave Coward Spiker :> -- Chaos?  -- 00:03, February 27, 2010 (UTC)

Adios
Mi amigo, we had much fun together but now it's time for you to go.--83.81.47.239 14:22, February 27, 2010 (UTC)

Reapers sweep
ahahaha.-- GWPirate 关 15:45, 18 February 2011 (UTC)