Archive talk:R/A Dagger Spam

Yeah I basically just copied the Pet Version page and edited it to make it correct, I think most stuff is in order, feel free to make changes. Kracatoan 09:00, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
 * You'll probably want to mainbar ED and make Escape a variant; Asuran Scan and EBSoH are typically listed in optionals for melee builds. GFS should probably go there, too, though I quite like the skill myself. AegisDok 09:02, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Tbh, if you're done making the page, I could do that myself. AegisDok 09:03, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Not too keen on using Drunken Master with escape due to its abysmal recharge time. AegisDok 09:11, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I was scraping the barrel for optionals, I'd never use it :P Kracatoan 09:14, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
 * tbh, Death's Charge, Dash and IAU! should be the optionals - catch kiters, spring into a mob and don't get crippled. Also perhaps make elite optional for escape idk..-- [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] Chieftain  Alex  09:31, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Tidied it up a bit, and put Escape there as an alternative. Kracatoan 13:52, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Why does this have to have its own page? Why not just list it as an invariant in the dagger pet article, or merge the two of them. Vorpal  14:27, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
 * As Torean said on the other page, we had a pet and a non-pet version for scythe rangers, this is pretty much the same thing. Kracatoan 14:30, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Because adding a pet makes a major difference in the playstyle of a build. But if anything, the pet variant should be added to this, since having a pet ranger build with a no-pet variant sound rather stupid. -- Jai . -  14:31, August 27 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd leave them separate mostly because the attribute distribution is different, and people just want to copy paste that + the skills. --  Toraen   talk  14:49, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Vorpal's Vote
"I substract 1 point for a ranger not being a sin" Nothing against the vote itself, but it continues to irk me that comparing builds from one profession to those of others (for general PvE) is becoming more acceptable. Le sigh... AegisDok 20:43, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I do agree it is a bit stupid to say that :3 Le Shadow Form Slayer   [[Image:SFS C-Ribbon.jpg|15px]] 20:43, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
 * STFU Shadow For.. whatever you name is. Anyway, what's wrong with comparing builds from different professions? The only way to say something about the performance of a build is by comparing it to other builds, especially when they are using common skills. Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 20:57, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Hehehehehe, youknow, just say SFS, three letters, saves you time, time to relax and take a drink. Cheers!Le Shadow Form Slayer   [[Image:SFS C-Ribbon.jpg|15px]] 20:58, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Because PvX has long since decided that it's unreasonable to expect people to only use the "better" professions for general PvE. You should be sympathetic; you use an ele. AegisDok 21:23, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't see why it should be any different than comparing monks to restos or an orders necro to an orders ele. But what the heck, you have a valid point. Now what do you want, a cookie? Playing an ele in PvE is a form of sadomasochism. =P Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 21:56, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I find vorpal's vote less of a reason to QQ than all the other votes comparing this to the pet version.-- Relyk 22:06, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
 * No vote from me, win-win :D Le Shadow Form Slayer   [[Image:SFS C-Ribbon.jpg|15px]] 22:07, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Scrap that, I copied toraen's one Le Shadow Form <font color="Green">Slayer   [[Image:SFS C-Ribbon.jpg|15px]] 22:08, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Comparing monks to restos is partially acceptable and partially not. Player monk healers are definitely better than player rit healers, and player restos are mediocre enough that you wouldn't want to bring one unless you didn't have any access to a monk. Also, rits have several very viable builds, from spirit spam to channeling stuff, so they don't absolutely need to heal, and since monks are better than healer rits it just ends up that rits generally don't do healing. Basically, resto rits can only do a mediocre job of healing (except for on heroes, which is a whole other story) which is the reason why they're not vetted well in PvE. However, this build is different because the damage it puts out is in the top 3 builds of the highest damage output possible in a ranger build, which makes it highly desirable even when there are even more OP builds out there. In other words, resto rits are somewhat underpowered so they aren't vetted well, while this build is quite OP, just not quite as OP as other melee builds... if that makes sense. :/ -- Jai . -  03:39, August 29 2011 (UTC)
 * Resto rits aren't vetted because player ritualists can run better things, not because monks heal better; Monks can run better things too; it just "feels wrong" to use monk for anything other than backlining. What kind of player runs a healer with heroways the way they are today is beyond me, though. AegisDok 16:31, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

How about this + Dwarven Stability and lightning reflexes and Moebius Strike? --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.125.106.163 (talk) at 01:24, 3 September 2011 (UTC).
 * I'm guessing perma IAS would add more DPS than Moebius, but I don't have any numbers to back it up. AegisDok 01:39, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
 * There's also the problem that stuff doesn't stay below 50% health for long enough to make Moebius that useful. Kracatoan 08:00, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Moebius would allow other skills in the dagger chain. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.125.106.163 (talk) at 11:31, 3 September 2011 (UTC).
 * You wouldn't want any other dagger attacks in the chain (except, perhaps, GFS); the main 3 work quite well on their own. AegisDok 12:43, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
 * however, i prefer moebius combined with IAU, Lightning reflexes, and DS, i find it better because ofc you get IAS and block, more damage per chain w/ moebius, and in HM, i carry shared burden on my mesmer for a reason.--Bluetapeboy 21:09, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Been running this build with Brawling Headbutt (dmg + KD), "Finish Him!" (more dmg + deep wound + cracked armor), and Lightning Reflexes (for blocking without slowing down your dps) as the optionals. The dps is insane compared to my Barrage build, plus it's a lot more fun--I get to spam "1", "2" AND "3" instead of just "1"--Tbo stephen 00:53, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

I may sound autistic...
But can you sustain this build for more than 30 seconds (with or without AScan)? Did not see zealous daggers.  Anvil God  zzz... 14:25, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
 * If energy ever does manage to be a problem, bringing a Lotus Strike (forget which one would be best) to spam when Fox Fangs is on recharge will more than cover it. Would have to be facing edenial for that to happen though. --  Toraen   talk  16:04, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Adding YMLD
Not sure, how to add skills to variant but YMLD works great here. It kd and cripples foe whenever they are escaping, and the best thing it is a shout skill. Although it is costly, zealous dagger will get you your energy back, if you are still uncomfortable, use lotus strike. The problem with Dash is that it is a stance so you lose your 33% attack speed. The problem with Death Charge, it has a 20sec cd, plus it doesn't really slow down the enemy that is escaping. The problem with BH is that it requires you to be next to the foe. If the foe is already escaping you still need to chase it down, by the time the foe stops, BH is not really worth it. --173.66.187.157 17:54, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 * PvP build, dude... -- Jai . -  11:00, October 31 2011 (UTC)
 * You are kidding I hope Jai. See the name of the build R/A PvE Dagger Ranger. In general it won't matter in PvE if you lose your stance for 10 seconds to catchup with dash and kill the foe - you only need to be chasing down individual foes if you're cleaning up after the big group spike that you probably microed. In truth you can take any PvE skills you like - e.g. I often take EVSS to one-hit-kill foes during the 4 man HM quests.--138.38.60.24 11:20, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Wtf, I'm not sure why I thought... Apparently I must have been looking at another build or something. Sorry about that. Carry on or whatever. -- Jai . -  02:30, November 5 2011 (UTC)
 * Just take a snare or FB on a hero. Regardless, things don't run far in PvE to warrant a poor PvE skill choice for a melee for a rare occasion. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 02:34, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

well
If we're welling stuff based on "Inferior single target damage to Build:R/A Dagger Pet Ranger," this should be first because it's the most comparable (almost a dupe anyway). Fianchetto 09:49, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The point is that this is more usable in situations where pets can be a liability (healer heroes will not prioritize healing pets and let them die if everyone gets hit, they can sometimes be a liability in getting aggro). They'd be on the same page, except the attribute distribution and thus the template code would be pretty different so it's not as simple as 'slot x skill instead'. --  Toraen   talk  09:54, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah, so it's not all about dmg dmg dmg, there are other considerations involved? My point exactly. Fianchetto 10:05, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Trying to find fault with the best ranger bar on PvX for pve is not the way to get your own vetted. [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain  <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  11:40, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Also of all the daggerspammers, ranger has the best non pve skill IAS available. -- [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  11:43, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * is inferior to this as well, so the point is moot. -- Jai . -  12:35, November 21 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for making my point, you'll be receiving your ectos shortly :) Fianchetto 16:30, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Experts Dex
why burn your elite on a 33% ias when your attack skills are 1/2 second? surely there is something more useful than a slightly faster DB 70.22.214.158 18:37, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Other weapons?
This works with daggers, but wouldn't it work with other weapons as well? i.e scythe or a spear? 173.69.63.43 15:22, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes.-- Relyk 22:51, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * (but daggers are better) -- Jai . -  01:35, November 28 2011 (UTC)
 * how on Earth are you going to use dagger attack skills with a scythe or spear? Choosing one of those weapons involves taking a new build entirely, meaning this build does NOT work with a scythe or spear. 76.118.156.169 15:31, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
 * OP clearly means the concept of experts dexterity + r/ whatever with expertise to spam attack skills. not merely changing weapons. dont be retarded -.- 164.11.203.58 15:45, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Cool thanks. :) ShinraGuardian 13:58, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Expert's Dex v2.0
will fix mainbar to DS+LR if it's ok with you folks Fianchetto 01:05, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
 * You barely need block anywhere, and elite is very cheap + almost 100% uptime. <font face="Calibri" color=black>Chieftain Alex  01:10, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
 * the only use i see for ED is some bar compression. or, take 1 more slot and you get block, cover enchant, and anti-kd. seems pretty worth it to me. you barely need anti-kd anywhere, but how can you possibly say the same for block and cover enchant? Fianchetto 16:12, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd hardly describe DS as a cover enchantment, besides 10 seconds of downtime is painful. Kracatoan 16:42, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
 * so basically ED is the default ias for ranger bars that can afford to waste the elite. Fianchetto 16:51, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
 * well seeing as skills 1-4 are all that matter in this build, the elite is quite flexible and there's no better use for it than a constant 33% IAS. Also, I suppose skills 5,6 and 7 are taken up by GFS, Dash and IAU seeing as you'd be mad to take anything else. Kracatoan 18:34, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, now that I think about it, what elite would you use instead? And don't say Möbius. Kracatoan 18:37, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Moebius. &#9823;Fianchetto [[Image:Mending.jpg|19px|link=User_talk:Fianchetto]] 18:53, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
 * ^sorry for uncultured english spelling, it was anet's choice. there aren't (m)any useful elites anyway. Temple Strike, Wastrel's Collapse, Fox's Promise, Assault Enchantments, Siphon Strength. they're all somewhat useless, but so is ED. &#9823;Fianchetto [[Image:Mending.jpg|19px|link=User_talk:Fianchetto]] 19:01, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
 * yes but with ED you get to bring along 2 extra skills which can be of use, outweighing the possible benefits from other elites. Kracatoan 19:07, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Just realised I said dash earlier, I meant DC. Kracatoan 20:13, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Enraged Lunge AegisDok 23:07, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Really, Experts dexteriy is the crappiest choice imagineable for this build. You can already have 22\30 seconds with 75% block + 33% IAS if you want to. Along with a massive speed boost that allows you to travel from group to group quickly, tank, survive, run to next outpost, run to door in dungeon and more. With virtually no loss in DPS. Experts dexterity shouldn't even be an optional in this build, it's crap. 84.48.54.253 09:07, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * ur crap Pew   Pew ♥   16:55, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Reverted Together as one change
There was already a write up for it posted: Build:R/A Together as One Daggers. The end result may be that this page gets merged into it or archived, but it should be retained separately for now while the Tao page is worked on. -Toraen (talk) 20:48, 28 April 2020 (UTC)