Archive talk:Team - DoA HM Searing Flames/Archive 1

Additional Tanking builds
Feel free to add any other tanking builds that have been proven to work successfully in all 4 areas. --Karlos 09:42, 30 January 2007 (CST)


 * Warrior's atts seem off. Ubermancer 22:23, 30 January 2007 (CST)


 * How so? --Karlos 08:23, 31 January 2007 (CST)


 * Check history. Had more Tactics then Strength, and no tactics linked skills. Ubermancer 16:25, 31 January 2007 (CST)


 * This is the very first version of the article. Even then, the tank had 16 Strength and 4 Tactics. Wary Stance is Tactics based. --Karlos 20:14, 31 January 2007 (CST)


 * Im fairly sure I commented on him having 8 + 1 + 3 Strength and 10 Tactics. Ubermancer 12:35, 1 February 2007 (CST)


 * I'm fairly certain you're wrong. There's a reason why article history is maintained. It's so that claims like these can be verified. Yours cannot. --Karlos 04:22, 2 February 2007 (CST)

Could a Paragon do this? I was thinking of this build:

Maximum leadership (16) earth magic (12) Equipment: Spear of Enchanting with a +energy inscription Shield of Devotion with a +energy inscription--Skullhat 07:53, 14 February 2007 (CST)
 * That looks possible on paper, but you'd probably want some form of health boost or self heal instead of "Go for the Eyes!" since criticals with wands aren't going to do very much.Actellim 15:41, 8 February 2007 (CST)
 * I was thinking that "GftE!" was a quick activating skill for blazing finale, and since it recharges very quickly all of the foes around you would be completely destroyed from blazing finale.--Skullhat 07:53, 14 February 2007 (CST)
 * We could even replace blazing finale for another skill because the foes would be constantly burning through Searing Flames.e.g

NB: Leader's Comfort could be replaced by Angelic Protection. --Skullhat 07:53, 14 February 2007 (CST)


 * What you need there are two things: An Armor buff and something to protect the glyph. I am not 100% familiar with Paragon skills, so I can't really tell you what to bring. --Karlos 12:26, 19 February 2007 (CST)
 * I would suggest "Stand Your Ground!", it provides an armor bonus to you AND party members within earshot. I would use something like Sora267 19:49, 24 February 2007 (CST)

Questions
Isn't essence bond better than GoLE? Shouldn't the HB monk take res chant, since he can cast it in 3 seconds to full effect? Necro could take FoC instead of SS, but it's just a variant. Any Elementalist could take the ranger spirits instead. One or more of the elementalists can be replaced by another competent damage dealing build (like the aforementioned FoC, or a SS if the support character goes BiP instead of SS/br), same goes for tank. I wonder if the healer monk can be replaced, but I doubt it. Ritualists and Paragons can't really rival the raw healing power of Healer's Boon - though not having a BiP means some areas will be a bit tougher and energy renegeration much slower - this problem would be mitigated if elementalists take bond. Oh, also, Liquid Flame could be a welcome addition there somewhere, or not? Well, these are all minor points, this is the standard team build for DoA. Doing all 4 in succession must be very rare, unless you have a great guild with dedicated members. :) Edit: Where is lightbringer's gaze on those builds? Edit2: isn't grasping earth better then ward vs foes, considering all damage is non-physical? NightAngel 14:17, 30 January 2007 (CST)

The guide is gigantic, some of my points are already covered. And it's unfeasible to consider every single different possibility, of course. I do wish the build were more flexible to include the possibility of using different classes. Eles. Monks. Warriors. Necros. That can't be the only way to do elite PvE in guild wars (except for the BP in Urgoz/Tombs). It's a lost battle though. I already caved in, and play with these classes most of the time. Doing anything else is just asking for pain and anguish. NightAngel 14:37, 30 January 2007 (CST)


 * I'll try and answer some of your questions:
 * First and foremost: This is NOT the ONLY build that CAN EVER work in DoA. Never make that assumption about any build. This is just A build that has been proven to work in DoA. Some of th ebars (within the confines of the build) are VERY tight and have no flexibility. Some of the pieces can be changed. I DO state that one of the three eles (or possible two) can be switched to other types of nuking. The WHOLE place can be done using a balanced GvG-style build.
 * Healer's Boon monk DOES have Essence Bond. Check again.
 * No, the HB monk should not be rezzing mid-fight to begin with. Rebirth on the monks is for disaster recovery.
 * Actually, no. FoC is inferior to SS in DPS. An FoC necro can be brought as a variant to one of the nukers. He can generate similar DPS to the eles in a short fight, but he can't create the same constant pressure (for just 15 energy) that an SS necro can.
 * In principle, the HB monk is most useful because of the big heal from heal party. No other way to generay that kind of healing from such a long range. It's useful in keeping the tank alive at a distance as well as countering a Searing Flames nuke from the Dryders.
 * I have not used a BiP in DoA in 1.5 months. BiPs are a waste of fire power and should only be used as a crutch for less experienced groups.
 * Essence Bond on the eles is a bit risky. It harms their energy when aggro breaks for any reason, which is when they should be at their best.
 * Liquid Flame and LB Gaze would be nice, just no room to add them. Convert Hexes is essential in certain points and it's WAY better if the Converts are not on the monks.
 * Grasping Earth is cheaper, faster to cast and has less range than the ward. So, it's a trade off. I added it as a variant. Thanks.
 * Every profession in Guild Wars can play in this build, with a slight drop in performance but not a big deal. For example, I did all of DoA and beat Mallyx on my Rit. He generally replaced the Necro or one of the monks. It was less efficient, but certainly doable. We used to have a ranger spirit spammer instead of a necro early on. The only profession I have problems with is the Paragon as they need to chuck their spears at something to charge up their adrenaline skills, and the nature of this build (tank pulling and holding aggro arouns corners) does not favor that.
 * --Karlos 18:39, 30 January 2007 (CST)

If aggro breaks, and breaks often, the grp is going to face serious dp, or die, or simply run very late. It really shouldnt break on a good group, so essence bond does seem like a good idea to me for Ele energy. If ALL aggro breaks from tank (no energy), the group is in serious trouble and should run for their lives anyhoos.

Casting a 3-sec res mid-combat is not the end of the world. Especially if one of the corpses is another monk. Yes, I actually agree BiPs aren't that necessary. Yes, after playing with my necro for a while, FoC is actually a bit inferior to SS. But... In areas with hex removal (like foundry with Great Dream riders), FoC is sometimes more reliable.

Every profession COULD play, karlos, i don't mean to say your intention was to shut them off. I'm saying that MOST people are very very resistant to any change, and will leave, kick or refuse to accept anything outside of this precise configuration (sometimes they accept a non-Bip necro, but even that is not a given). Still, most truly experienced groups know that they can be flexible. It's the ones that have just learned a little bit but not much that are the most conservative. As for ideas on paragon, motivation support would probably be the way to go. They're on Fire would help, Aria of Zeal would act as a small battery of sorts. Not sure what he could replace. I do love my paragon, but I can't imagine getting any group in Doa with him. Pity. NightAngel 21:59, 30 January 2007 (CST)


 * I do not think Essence Bond on the elementalists is necessary nor desirable. I do think it's possible, I do not endorse it. I'll add it as a variant. I go in as a nuker with 90 energy, With attunement up, Searing Flames costs zero until the third or forth cast, by which time, the bulk of the bad guys are dead. If you've been nuking till you run dry and the bad guys are not dead yet, then you need more experience nuking there, not Essence Bond. An ele with 80-90 energy should have no issues getting the job done. The only exception is the city when the Kayas and Dabis get a hold of you and destroy your energy. Monks don't start off with 90 energy and have to maintain and enchantment up, both of them. This is why they need it.
 * The elementalists cast Glyph-Sac Res Chant in the middle of a battle. And yes, 3 sconds casting Res Chant in the middle of battle (shouldn't it be 4 seconds?) IS too much because the HB monk is the primary healer.
 * Greater Dream Riders do not have hex removal. It's the Guardians of Komalie that do. There are 3 of them in the whole run.
 * You are right about groups in DoA. If you want to do a non-traditional group, you need to form it basically. In the case of my Ritualist, that's what I did. I started the groups, I called the shots, I defined the roles. If yo're joining another group, they will be less likely to experiment. --Karlos 01:28, 31 January 2007 (CST)
 * i personally dont run full energy storage anymore. with a Bip on team, and Lesser energy glyph, i can keep my energy reasonable at around 70. leaving me points to spare for earth (kinetic armor for backup tanking) or prot prayers (better rebirth) or anything else i want to try. -TehBuG-

It was 3 seconds during test weekend, recorded the wrong info. And even if the elementalists don't quite NEED so much energy, isn't it good to keep it up? I'm just saying, if there IS going to be an energy management skill, it should be the best, not that they need all the energy they can get. Yes, sac+res is the best way to do it. THat's odd, I was told there was hex removal in foundries, and didn't think to question it or go look. You're right, there is no hex removal. In fact, in most of DoA I think only Heart Tormentors actually have it (Blessed Light). That's good to know, opens up more strategies. Forming unorthodox groups means mostly getting inexperienced people. THat's the dilemma. You either play exactly what everyone expects, or you get people who are open to new things, but who are very inexperienced. In the latter case, you're still likely to fail, and people might even blame you because you were different. Human nature sucks :)NightAngel 06:31, 31 January 2007 (CST)


 * My last entry on this:
 * I do not like the idea of ele's needing outside assistance to manage their energy. Goodness! They have so many energy management tools. Like I said, Essence bond on the monks helps monks cope with the maintained enchants and allows others to not carry any defensive skills. However, I am GREATLY in favor of never relying on something like that for energy management. The monks have an excuse, the eles don't. Ideally, they should be able to SF nuke with or without Essence Bond. It's just regular SF nuking. This is why you run Glyph of Lesser Energy and Glowing Gaze. I mean if you 're going to rely on E-Bond, might as well toss those out and go all crazy with SF, Liquid Flame, Rodgort's Invocation. I mean, why carry all those e-management skills? E-Bond will save the day. It won't. This is why relyin gon it for eles makes no sense.
 * If "experienced" players are not open to trying out things in DoA then they can't really be that "experienced" can they? Experienced players are anything but cookie-cutter drones, right? --Karlos 08:22, 31 January 2007 (CST)
 * Isnt Essesnce bond glitched? if the damage taken is reduced to 0 you dont gain energy off of it. ive heard this floating around in the gate. -TehBuG-

I sincerely wish with all my heart that your last sentence were true, Karlos, I really do. As I said, the truly experienced can understand flexibility. But most people go through life learning (if that much) only the basic, essential concepts that other people thought of, that function in a minimally sufficient way. For most people, that kind of mediocrity is enough, and they will refuse and fight anything different. Please don't think I include you in that class, just because you put up the standard build for Doa up. People need standards, they are useful. The trouble is convincing people to go beyond it, but don't get me wrong, if nothing else, they should at least use something that is proven to work. Ok, well, I've never actually used essence bond on my Elementalist, so I'm not such a huge fan. I'm usually playing as Necro, and was interested in knowing how the group can do without BiP. Don't get me wrong, I've bipped a lot in my life, and don't mind doing it, but lately I'd much rather actually DO something. You know, kill monsters and such. Tired of wasting my life and blood and see others wasting my precious gift :) NightAngel 08:57, 31 January 2007 (CST)

Is this a noob-friendly build? Like... for people that are new to DoA, and don't know the spawns and whatnot (like me, for example). I've been interested in DoA-ing, and I heard from one long-time DoAer "just go in with a GvG build, you'll win." Yeah... no. You can't eurospike, SBRI, split team, or (generically) Searing Flames your way through DoA, so I never got far in. Is this a build you recommend using for inexperienced DoAers, or is there something you'd recommend changing (like a crutch-heavy variant, i.e. a BiP or something)? -Auron  13:43, 31 January 2007 (CST)


 * I would certainly recommend you do each separatel and not try 4 in a row. I would recommend you start with City. Even though it is the worst on energy, it is actually the easiest in terms of disaster recovery (ample room to break aggro and retry, Margonites don't follow forever like some Stygian creatures do). The Gloom simply has a very tough fight at the start that will make or break your run and the foundry is the "no escape" zone, with very little room to recover from mistakes until you make it to the great hall.
 * The key for this build to work smoothly is for the tank to bunch foes up nicely and hold aggro well. My suggestion would be to either hook up with an experienced tank, or have patience in doing this several times until the tank figures out the angles and patrol paths.
 * If you do each area independently, you have more flexibility. For example, you don't need Convert Hexes in the City, Veil or Foundry, so you can put LB Gaze or Liquid Flame on the eles for more damage. You don't need Dismiss Condition in anything other than Foundry so you can put another heal in its place. You don't really need Deep Freeze outside of Veil, so that ele can carry other things. The tank does not really need Wary Stance outside of Gloom and Veil (mainly Gloom), so you can replace it with something like Sliver Armor for added offense.
 * A BiP would make thing smoother at first in the City, however, the name of the game (and the concept of the skill "Enraged") is that, the longer the enemy hangs around, the harder the fight will be. The Margonite Anur Su will be getting off 300+ damage Invoke Lightning in 1 second near the end of the fight! So, loss of firepower to bipping is not all peachy.
 * A GvG style balanced team that does NOT know what's coming, and when, does not have a very good chance either. I have done this with a LOT of good PvPers, some REALLY good too, and in the end, we have settled on this build rather than GvGing it. The stupidity of the AI in its inability to get around the tank just makes this far easier than dashing and slashing PvP style. --Karlos 20:31, 31 January 2007 (CST)

The AI is stupid alright, but it DOES get past the tank easily if the group isn't careful. What I'd reeeally like is a viable DoA build to do with Heroes. That's most likely a distant dream... NightAngel 06:46, 1 February 2007 (CST)


 * You've just been playing with bad tanks is all I can say. We have maybe one or two agree breaks per area and no more than a few monsters. --Karlos 07:15, 1 February 2007 (CST)


 * I dunno, if the nukers or monks aren't careful, they can pull aggro of the tank pretty easy. I've been with a lot of inexperienced groups that won't let aggro settle on the tank before they start nuking, and than stand in aggro range to let their nukes recharge... I've had monks re-bond the tank (when he doesn't need it) in the middle of a fight after his bonds drop, and than pull aggro, and I've had healers try and keep the tank at full health by heal-spamming him. All of these are no-no's if you don't want to pull aggro back to the casters. Thank god I always play with an ele from my guild, when aggro goes bad he's about all that keeps PUG's alive. Actellim 10:42, 2 February 2007 (CST)

Probably. Or Bad nukers, monks... The necro is usually great. ;) NightAngel 07:34, 1 February 2007 (CST)

I was just wondering if the skill rebalance on 1 February 2007 affected this build dramatically. Virtusdraco 21:55, 3 February 2007 (CST)


 * Not really. 3 SF eles still work great. The one issue is really Essence Bond. However, since it seems to be broken rather than changed, I don't know if I should take it out permanently or wait for it to be fixed. We ran it post skill changes and got done in 6.5 hours with SB monk dropping near the end. Energy was an issue in tough fights for the monks but not a big problem. I do suggest that less experienced group stake a BiP necro instead of the SS. --Karlos 09:21, 4 February 2007 (CST)

''Conquering the DoA in sequence is done in the order: City -> Veil -> Gloom -> Foundry. This has the benefit that the chests at the end of each area would increasingly yield more gems. '' If I leave group and join a different group but still do it in order will I still get the bonus gemstones?--Dr.D 10:31, 5 February 2007 (CST)
 * I think some clarification is neccessary on that paragraph. *glances at Karlos* You only get bonus gemstones if you do the areas consecutively. In other words, if you do Veil with the same group you did City with, without leaving the area, then when you finish Veil you will get two Stygian Gemstones each, instead of one, from the final chest. If you do all four areas without leaving the area then the final area will yield four Torment Gems. Since Titan Gemstones are the most valuable, it makes sense that those groups able to should do Foundry last so they get four Titan Gemstones each. If you leave the group, you get to start over at one gemstone. Skyreal 00:23, 6 February 2007 (CST)

Does it work even if you don't have meteor shower? It's the only Prophecies skill here. --Swift Thief 18:24, 12 February 2007 (CST)

Possible Variant
[build name="Possible Variant" prof=range/necro wilder=12+1+3 beastm=11+1 expert=5+2 bloodm=4][famine][symbiosis][edge of extinction][blood ritual][quickening zephyr][energizing wind][serpents quickness][optional][/build]

Armor: Full Druid's, Major Expertise on Chest, Superior Wilderness on Mask, Best Vigor you can afford, Rune of Attunement x 2 (this armor is also ideal for trapping)

Equipment: The Mindclouder or simliar +20 energy +30 Health Staff. A second weapon set with a Perfect Hale Staff of Enchanting and with a "Sieze the Day" 15/-1 Inscription (+30 Energy, 20% longer Enchantments) is useful for Blood Rit'ing, and in case you bottom out on energy (although in testing in the city I did not). With the The Mindclouder and the armor spec'ed as posted, you have 56 energy and 3 pips of regen.


 * This would replace the SS Necro. The EW + QZ combo helps out the team in many ways. It helps the SB monk lower the recharge on SB, lowers the energy cost of SF and other nukes as well as helps the healers. EW/QZ should probably not be cast until after the bonder has the bonds up though. The 16 in WS deal 37 damage with famine. One of the Ele's would have to go E/Me and use sv/av on the tank. This will help drain the energy out of the enemies, as well as provide cheap cover bonds, that in an area like Veil, offer more HP to the tank through Symbosis. Spellbreaker, as noted, will also serve to drain energy, as enemies continually cast on the target. This can help trigger Famine as well. I have tested the bar and this attribute spread. The ranger can self manage their own energy. QZ is the only spirt that has a longer RC than it will last, and the difference is around 13 seconds. Optional slot includes Rez, LB Gaze or Barbed Trap, useful for some areas. Serp's could be droped and Charm/Comfort could be brought for the foundry. [[Image:Laxin213_sig.jpg]] Lax 11:53, 5 February 2007 (CST)

A Call for Assistance.
I hereby issue the following challenge to those of you who are A) experienced with this build and B) able to see beyond the cookie cutters and know the deliciousness of a hand-formed homemade chocolate chip cookie over a sterile, uniform, store-bought sugar cookie. With that said, I ask on bended knee, help me figure out how to fit my mesmer into this group. Every time I come up with something, something else gets in the way (the most obvious example being the recent nerf of Spiritual Pain). It's fairly easy to see how an additional necro, a ritualist, maybe even an assassin could fit in here, but this is desperately challenging my persistent worldview that mesmers can be whatever they want when they grow up. There has to be a way to fit a mesmer into this group effectively, but I'm getting quite a headache trying to figure out what it is. Some important facts to keep in mind:
 * Area Damage might not be the best idea, thanks to that pesky Enraged. However, the REST of the group seems to be doing just fine with area damage, so I'm torn. Mesmers don't have terribly much in the way of area damage, but... yeah.
 * There's two main possibilities for a mesmer who wants to do damage; you can use mesmer skills, or you can ratchet up Fast Casting and use Mantra of Recovery along with a secondary damage-dealing line. In my experience I find that, for PvE, Mantra of Recovery is the best way overall for a mesmer who wants to heavily invest in their secondary profession to go. Thanks to recharge times and aftercast, Fast Casting will give you a nice initial spike and good field control in PvP, but in prolonged PvE battles, the way for a mesmer to have some reason for being a mesmer primary is Mantra. Being able to cast twice as often is just as important as being able to cast twice as fast, often more so.
 * Unfortunately the nature of this specific build makes a mesmer's "traditional" function in high-level PvE, that is to say, interruption, significantly less important. Shutting down the Anur Kis and other healers might enhance the speed at which your foes fall, but it's not as important to keep the eles or the necros from casting, thanks to the chained Spell Breaker / Ob Flesh.

Bearing those unfortunate facts in mind, here's a few ideas I've come up with. Please, tell me if you think that ANY of them might conceivably work, either as-is or with some tweaking.

Idea #1: The Focused Damage Dealer

This would be used to give some nice, armor-ignoring damage to one target, over and over. Assuming that your target keeps attacking (which they almost surely will. I routinely kill Margonite Clerics with just Inep/Clums. Clerics.), Ineptitude x2 + Clumsiness + Images of Remorse = a good 350-400 damage, repeatable reasonably frequently, in a very short period of time. Epidemic is NOT because Blindness is so incredibly effective, not with the tank as souped-up as he (or she) is, but because spreading conditions will cause the monks to waste time removing those conditions from everyone around your target instead of healing your target. I submit this to your consideration.

Idea #2: The Hex Bomber

I've used a variant of this in some form or another in FoW and most of the Realm of Torment since before Factions came out (prior to Hex Eater, I used Mantra of Recovery). If you're in an area like FoW or many parts of the RoT or, I'm led to believe, this area, you will do PHENOMENAL damage. In such areas, your tank will be hexed pretty damn close to constantly, which means that you can Shatter (or Vortex) him pretty much constantly, for 126 armor-ignoring damage with 'nearby range (which is significantly larger than SF's "adjacent", I don't need to tell you). Since the damage is done in discrete packets, like SF, no "AoE Panic" is triggered. Chaos Storm is for when you WANT AoE Panic to trigger, much the same way that certain elementalists carry Lava Font to cause enemy meleers who break aggro and get too close to flee. It's replaceable, I'm just pretty much C&Ping my "standard" bar. The energy takes some getting used to, but with careful management such as Essence Bond and the occasional emergency Blood Ritual, the damage is insane. The problem, of course, is that I'm uncertain, having not played with this exact build, how reliably the tank will be hexed. I'm not certain if Ob Flesh and/or Spell Breaker are used extensively enough that your primary damage skills will sit, useless, for much of the fighting, or if they're mostly used for the initial pulling and while in the thick of things there will be hexes aplenty to explode. If the latter is true, this strikes me as the most likely build to use, but I submit this to your consideration.

Idea #3: The FC Channeler

Mantra, Spirit Rift, and (as an auxiliary skill) Ancestor's Rage combine for some really, really powerful damage. At 16, Searing Flames does 119 fire damage; at 12, Spirit Rift does 113 Lightning damage, and they can be cast almost as often (Spirit Rift recharges in 2.5 seconds and casts in ~.5-~.75 seconds with Mantra and high FC; Searing Flames recharges in 2 seconds and casts in 1 second. The 3 second delay becomes moot if keeping up a chain of casting, as you should be. Pretty comparable.) Unfortunately, Spirit Rift is a HUGE energy guzzler, so three slots are designated for energy management, possibly even four (aided in no small way by the recharge boost given by mantra). Though the loss of Meteor Shower is unfortunate, the damage output is still PRETTY close to one of the Searers (remember, we're not looking for "optimal damage dealer," we're looking for "optimal mesmer damage dealer"). I submit this to your consideration.

So if you're still with me, what I'm asking overall is for the input of more experienced GoA players to tell me if ANY of these could conceivably help (or, let's be humble, could at least fail to hinder) a team enough to get all the way through any of the GoA quests and let me get my mesmer through GoA. I'm not kidding myself that it'll be hard to get a group at ALL, but since I can't really get a group to test this beforehand, which of these, if any, will make me embarass myself the least if I DO manage to wheedle, whine, or blackmail my way into a group. Which is best? Why? Would some other build work better? If so, what? I repeat that I know that for a group like this, in which a Mesmer's unique specialties are less useful, the damage output will almost certainly not match or exceed that done by a boring but effective SFer, but I'm hoping to find a build that, if it won't let me exceed their damage, will at least let me come CLOSE enough that we can still successfully complete the quests and I won't just be dead weight. I'd be happy if I could even beat just ONE of the quests. Any comments and suggestions are welcome. I hope that someone will take the time to help me out and inject a little creativity into the stultifyingly formulaic GoA group. Zaq 22:18, 9 February 2007 (CST)

What About a Me/E Fast cast Searing flames? the spammability could be fun... a possible skill bar could include SF, Glowing, lesser E, Arcane echo, MS, etc and with a full fast cast the sac glyph may become less of an issue... SF, echo, glowing, glowing, SF, glowing, glowing.. you'd have better E-managment than a standard SF nuke, and be able to fit or, echo the MS or the SF. Me/n bip? if you want non cookie cutter, look up skills and come up with something workable. thats how all cookiecutter builds came to be in the first place. (my new love is my dervish, so i know how you feel, but starting out on the attack basically with "able to see beyond the cookie cutters..." isnt going to help. there cookie cutter for a reason. they WORK. WELL. i hate that its taken a few months and a fight to get a Dervish DoA build vetted (even if it is just a variandt of the Obs flesh tank) so i know how you feel, but starting out the way you did might hinder your request.)-TehBuG-

I was thinking a Me/N using Curses, Dom, Insp and FC. Hexes work in the vast majority of DoA (I think the Blessed Light Margonites in the city are one fo the few classes w/ hex removal). So I would run a bar like

Fast Cast = 9+4, Inspiration = 7+1 , Domination = 4+1, Curses = 12, Blood = 5. The best area to run a bar like this would probably be the Foundry. The Derv's that sprout from the titans will be taking 150+ damage from Descerate and Defile which can be casted in ~1.2secs. The titans have resistance to fire damage, and since most groups don't bring winter, this bar could out damage a SF ele if timed correctly in the first few rooms of the Foundry (I have tried with my N/ using a similair bar, and comparing the damage to my SF ele. Backfire does 70 damage and would help to drop a stubborn monk aggro. Using ae, ss,ss,de,de burns 65e, so it would bottom you out if you didn't get a bip on your last cast (my mesmer has 65e with 3 pips). Hitting ether sig and then using power drain would yield about 27e and allow for another few castings. Optiumal Equip would be a totem axe or simliar +5e 20% longer swd, axe or spear and a +27/-1 20HSR Curses offhand (a 27/-1 +30hp one is a collector item). The Me/N could replace one of the SF/MS ele's. Lax 13:37, 18 February 2007 (CST)

Of the skillbars you listed, the last would be the most effective in the DoA. I personally like the idea of a Me/Rt in a DoA group. The BiP should keep your energy up, although you'd be putting a lot of pressure on him. The first two builds just flat out won't work in the DoA for the following reasons: the first build isn't AoE. Enraged isn't an issue, because your tank won't be taking any damage to begin with... The second build would also be ineffective simply because the tank will be under the affect of SB or OB flesh almost constantly (in which case he won't get hexed). The third build would work well because of it's AoE capability and spamability. The loss of MS hurts, but I think you could maybe find a group with it. I wish you the best of luck! Actellim 12:07, 19 February 2007 (CST)

Prior t it's nerf, we used an Assassin's Promise-Spiritual Pain nuker to nice success. The beauty of having a mesmer is that they cover up some other deficiencies. For example, they will Backfire a Margonite Anur Ki and make nuking margonites easier. Same thing for Dryders. The main issue with Mesmers is energy management. The combo of Echo, SP, AP, SP is very nasty on energy especially with a backfire in the midst.

Now that SP is nerfed, I would suggest an E-Surge nuker with support like Backfire. --Karlos 12:18, 19 February 2007 (CST)

needs update
Due to the Necrotic/rebirth trick (not teh pet one) not working anymore you might want to update. also, the skill Rending sweep has been fixed (again, apparantly) so tanks in gloom are a lil safer :) -TehBuG-
 * Why the trick not working anymore ? --Benoit flageol 01:04, 12 February 2007 (CST)

BiP > SS?
Well, having a BiP is probably better than having an SS. DoA is not a safe place and having a BiP is much safer. Also, BiP is a core skill so it lets Necromancers without Prophecies to go to the DoA. --Swift Thief 20:41, 12 February 2007 (CST)


 * I do mention that in the variants. I personally never liked having a BiP in a party. I think it's waste of an elite. SS is simply sublime in certain area like the Gloom and Foundry. --Karlos 12:20, 19 February 2007 (CST)


 * Have the bip replace the Healer's Boon monk, not the SS. The SB monk can spam Heal Party, the eles get additional energy, and the bip has a couple of free skillslots to help with Prot spirit, convert or the like. This is "the default" in German districts. 134.130.4.46 14:38, 13 March 2007 (CDT)


 * I believe that to be an inferior build. I don't know many people in the German districts and have no way of verifying your claim, however. A healer's boon strongest asset is his/her ability to heal everyone for nearly 150 health with a single spell, not 90. This is not just "cool", this is of great value in catching Dryder SF spikes (when they blast 3-4 people to under 50% health with one SF) as well as handling the constant degen from movement in the Foundry. In addition, the HB monk's healing spikes with Dwayna's Kiss (nearly 1000 health) are an excellent counter to the Hungers in the Veil. Putting all the healing on one monk (who also has to keep the tank SB'ed) is overloading one person I think. --Karlos 05:48, 14 March 2007 (CDT)


 * First of all, the numbers for heal party with and without HB are 84/126 and the HB monk in this build will be able to cast heal party maybe twice and then being out of energy. With a BiP in group you can spam heal party all day long, and that is really cool :). Saying that BiP is a waste of an elite slot makes me belief that you never played anything else down there then the tank. The healer can drain quite a lot of energy with heal party and sf eles can convert almost unlimited amounts of energy into damage. Remember that every second you spend with using energy management is a second you don't do damage. Plus the eles own energy management is hardly enough to keep up the standard sf spamming. If the fight gets longer, if you can't use attunement (dream riders), if you die and get ressed or if you use aechoed sf your own energy management will never be enough. I don't know how much of it you can compensate with essence bond, but since the tank has to get actual damage for it to trigger and that rarely should be the case i don't think much. I played SB monks in this build, it is not overloading one person, actually it helps you stay awake. With a 3 monk backline you risk that they either will fall asleep out of boredom or run out of energy because of the missing BiP, in both cases your party has a problem :). 134.130.183.235 11:43, 14 March 2007 (CDT)


 * I have played everything in this build and even killed Mallyx with my Ritualist. You don't want to start inferring I don't know any part of this build well.
 * First of all, your rationale that the monks might fall asleep is not only silly (it is a fair assumption to make that the player sin your party will not fall asleep during a run) but contradicts your claim that they will need Bipping. If they need bipping, they should be getting all paranoid about their energy, not falling asleep because of a lack of something to do.
 * I never ask for BiP or BR as an ele and my experience is that the people who most often have problems as SF nukers are those who do not use GoLE whenever it's ready. They only start using it when they run low on energy.
 * Finally, we use a BiP in Citadel because we don't use SF eles, so energy management is harder, however, in a regular run, a BiP is a complete waste of a member slot. Every fight is less than a minute, every fight is over once the meteors start dropping and nothing warrants bipping. If the fights are dragging on, then your nukers are not experienced enough, and, as I said in the article, if your party is NOT experienced, a BiP is likely going to be needed. But, once they figure out what they are doing and how to take out a group in one fast hard nuke, there should never be a need for a BiP. --Karlos 17:05, 15 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Agree. --Benoit flageol 18:42, 15 March 2007 (CDT)
 * In a perfect world i might almost agree with you. If you do inferno in way under 2h, every group falls in just a few seconds, there are no break throughs, the kis are allways standing perfect etc, the BiP really might be redundant. But especially in pick up groups things leave the perfect way once in a while. Titans break through (dream riders even do it by default), ki stay in the back line and that is where a BiP really comes in handy. And i rather have a group which can kill fast and if something goes wrong still can hold up than a group which kills just as fast (even a bit slower, see below) but is in serious trouble if something goes wrong.
 * About your claim of my faulty logic, actually read my comment more carefully, its your reading comprehension that lacks a bit. I said either/or, thats an XOR. If everything goes well they will fall asleep because they have massive overhealing with 2 healers and if things go bad they will eventually run out of mana. Both are mutual exclusive.
 * And now to your ongoing claims that eles don't need BiP, as i already said, you do not NEED it for standard sf spamming, but if you have it you can do so much more damage. So if you do not ask for BiP when there is one available as ele you just don't do your job right. Even if you do not carry AEcho with you, you still squeeze out a little bit more damage if you do not have to cast GolE and GG, which are always 2 sec where you do no or pitiful single target damage. If you have AEcho with you (2 eles generally have when we do inferno), things are entirely different. With 2 sf and 36/36 equipment there is no ele energy management that will keep up with your energy drain. And if you still do not belief my practical experience as an ele just look at the hard numbers. AEchoed SF means SF every 2 seconds, and that is only without any HSR/HCT triggers.
 * But of course a BiP is useless if you just don't use him. 134.130.183.235 12:34, 16 March 2007 (CDT)
 * (grmpf, edit conflict) Dryder Spikes and a second dwayna's for the hungers are good points (we bring extinguish against the former and somehow manage against the latter). Degen from movement and "use GoLE whenever it's ready [...] Every fight is less than a minute" are less good points. And of course, if everything runs well, you need neither an HBoon nor a BiP, but could do with 7 players. The interesting question is which one helps you more when things go suboptimal. I don't know (never played in inferno with 3 monks) and actually don't care much (will try to find a 3 monk group sometime tho). The point I wanted to make is that _once you decided to bring a bip_, you should kick the HBoon, not the SS. 3 monks with bip is a lot of overheal, and you're hurting your spike capability by trading BiP vs SS. (I'm assuming whoever wants more energy wants it for the eles.. if the monks need more energy than an occasional blood ritual, then something is definitely wrong and I'd suspect its either bad players or the use of essence bond, which was recently nerfed/bugged.) 134.130.4.46 13:29, 16 March 2007 (CDT)

Wary stance still worth using?
At tactics 4, it lasts a grand total of 2 seconds, while it costs 10 energy. Is it still useful as is?

The point of Wary, as I understand it, is to prevent Glyph of Concentration from being interrupted, nothing more. 2 seconds is iffy but is in fact just barely enough to do to. Zaq 14:14, 14 February 2007 (CST)


 * Yup. Even at 2 seconds.. All you need is 1 second. during those 2 seconds you block ALL attack skills (i.e. Savage Shot, Disrupting Throw, ...) which is the desired effect. Once the glyph is up, you don't need it anymore. --Karlos 12:22, 19 February 2007 (CST)

Angelic Bonder?
Could we have an Angelic Bonder instead of the monk bonder?--Skullhat 14:24, 24 February 2007 (CST)


 * The bonder is supposed to stay out or range as much as possible, which you can't really do if you have to refresh the bond every 30 seconds or so. Also, Angelic Bond alone won't replace Life Barrier + Life Bond. --Shattered Self 00:50, 1 March 2007 (CST)


 * I really don't think that would be in anyones best interests, especially any Paragon out there. I'm sure there's a build out there that'll get the Paragon into PUG's though, just keep searching! Actellim 09:40, 1 March 2007 (CST)


 * Getting a Paragon build to the Anguish is hard, because all the freaking curses that avoid chants, shouts,... But not impossible. I think, that in general, with all the skills nerfed, a monk bonder should work out better. --Crigore 13:30, 1 March 2007 (CST)


 * See the Paragon tank build discussions above. --Shattered Self 20:24, 1 March 2007 (CST)

More on mesmers
How about something like this:

Prehaps Cry of Frustration, Convert Hexes, Energy Burn could be put somewhere? &mdash; Skuld 05:40, 3 March 2007 (CST)


 * My mesmer is on her way there, I was thinking of Arcane Echoing E-Surge. With higher LB rank it's like 100 armor ignoring damage to foes nearby + energy denial. LB gaze does less damage against armored foes like warriors. E-Bond doesn't work any more :( Spamming LB gaze seems like an interesting idea. I'll try that with my ele. --Karlos 06:04, 3 March 2007 (CST)

lb gaze
It says to spam lb gaze on the ele builds. Yet no where in the skill set up is lb gaze included.


 * Removed. They were a left over from the Veil build where Convert hexes is not needed. --Karlos 00:44, 5 March 2007 (CST)

Balthazar's Spirit on the Warrior?
The warrior's writeup mentions that he'll have Balthazar's Spirit up to cast Earth spells, but I don't see it in the skill bar. It looks like that would eat up that "optional" slot. Edit: The writeup says, "The tank will have Balthazar's Spirit on which will allow for constant casting of all Earth Magic spells." But the tank is a Warrior/Elementalist (for the armor and obsidian flesh) and Balthazar's Spirit is a monk skill. Banaticus 21:45, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
 * The bonder monk mantains it on the tank. --Dirigible 21:57, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

Merge
They are 3 other EXACTELY SAME team build out there. Why don't we merge all these build in this one ? It's the same thing... --Benoit flageol 01:48, 23 March 2007 (CDT)


 * This was written later to summarize the first two. I don't care if the first two are removed. This IS a merge of those two plus adding guides for the other two areas. --Karlos 08:04, 24 March 2007 (CDT)
 * So why not just delete or archive (well say on the other build that they are merged here)... ? Like we did with General Barager. --Benoit flageol 11:09, 24 March 2007 (CDT)

BiP
Can anyone please post his BiP build For DoA? Flamer Lamer
 * BiP build is always the same, always the 3 same skills and you can put what you want in the other spot. --Benoit flageol 11:26, 1 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I never played BiP Necro personally but this is what the usual bipper brings when our alliance goes pugging for extras::

Under optional, I often see Troll Unguent for those low-hp BiPPers to counter the environmental effect in the Foundry. I don't remember the attributes (I assume high Blood Magic, Moderate Beast Mastery, and Soul Reaping) but unless your spellcasters are good at managing their energy, I would just stick to the usual SS/BR/Spirits combo build mentioned in this article. I would only recommend the BiP elite if your group has a hard time managing energy ... but ideally, only the monks would be the ones that need the energy regen boost more than your three attacking spellcasters, since their energy pool is much smaller than the nukers. --KirinRiotCrash 20:19, 1 April 2007 (CDT)

A Ritualist Variant?
I've been running this build for quite a while in DoA for the past few days with my Alliance members (since most PUGs are afraid to experiment outside the three usual professions) --

[build name="A Ritualist Variant" prof=ritua/mesme channe=12+3+1 commun=12 restor=3][arcane echo][spirit rift][ancestors rage][renewing surge][essence strike][mighty was vorizun][offering of spirit][flesh of my flesh][/build]

For the most part, it seems to work as a replacement for one of the three Eles; an Alliance member managed to finish City and Veil with it ... but I wonder if there's a way to improve it, perhaps by replacing Arcane Echo with another skill? Or maybe something better out there for a Ritualist to use in DoA?

In regards to usage, the first thing I use is MwV so I get a good boost of energy. Then, I use Arcane Echo in conjunction with Spirit Rift so the skill can be spammable. Ancestors' Rage is used on the Tank, with caution in making sure I don't lure out aggro from the tank. Renewing Surge, while holding ashes, can be used to spike any strays. For energy management, Essence Strike and Offering of Spirit can be used as long I'm near the EoE and/or Symbiosis spirits summoned by the Necro battery. If the party calls for a Sync-Sac-MS, I join in with Echo-SpiritRift to contribute to the spike. Flesh of My Flesh is the general resurrection skill-- it can rez a low-hp BiP N/R at full health (like Resurrection Chant) while having the same casting distance as Resurrect (vs. Resurrection Chant's half-range distance). I posted some screenshots in this thread here on the Guru: [] (scroll down some to view them) ... I can manage to do around 80~85 damage as a Vanquishing Lightbringer (LB Rank 5) while attacking Titans. I also managed to peak ~119 damage on some Anur Margonites. Nifty stuff! --KirinRiotCrash 21:12, 1 April 2007 (CDT)

The Necromancer's Pet
Does the Necromancer's pet HAVE to be lvl 20? --Swift Thief 14:16, 15 April 2007 (CDT)
 * No, its even better if it is min lvl because it will death faster. --213.44.161.100 00:21, 22 June 2007 (EDT)

Different Ranger Variant please
I was thinking of the ranger variant build that was posted here... but there's no fun in sitting and spamming spirits (at least, in my case) so i think i have an offensive variant (I just came up with it, so there is much room for change) that still has some spirits in the mix.

Probably About 7 Earth prayers using Ebon Dust Aura (at longbow range, of course) you wouldnt need any marksmanship to keep them blinded, so you can afford to put points onto Wilderness Survival and Beast Mastery. Blind is also a non-harmful condition to the tank. Note: Staggering Force is only there for those who don't have an Ebon longbow.Stryk Lightning 18:53, 23 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Oops... my bad. Ebon Dust Aura only triggers on attack skills.Stryk Lightning 19:35, 23 April 2007 (CDT)