User talk:Moloch/Build:N/A Endless Bile PvE Spiker

Fetid Ground deals 20 less damage than IV. And only once. Thus, it must be completely utter trash in any high end content, mrite? Lol. Besides, half of the PvE populus can't be KDed, or KDs you for fun and profit. Don't talk trash about a skill that deals more damage, whilst still advocating a much lower-damage alternative. -- › Srs Beans R Srs  06:39, 6 August 2008 (EDT)
 * You're comparing Fetid Ground to Icy Veins. Fetid Ground was simply added to inflict Poison, which can be exploited by other skills as well. The real comparison is Icy vs Assassin's Promise, that is, insta-recharge of PB/RB, YMLAD, FH! and EVAS compared to the effect of IV. Moloch 06:42, 6 August 2008 (EDT)


 * I was comparing your damage output with my damage output. If you think everything has a fuckton of armor against everything, don't run a 55-raw-fucking-cold-damage skill. You'll need some dedicated damage from your team in order to even begin thinking about using "Finish Him!", only to hope they're targetting the same target as you do. Besides, if they but once interrupt your AP, you're screwed. And it will happen in HM, where they have 1/8 DShots and 1/16th Cry of Frustrations (less, even, since they'll have 18-20 FC).
 * Btw, you have no skills that "exploit" a poisoned target. Relying on your team and the team relying on you is bad in HM. You should actually function solo. Which this build doesn't in a long shot. If you target a different target than the dedicated damage in your team, you've wasted your whole bar. If you miscast AP once, you're worthless. -- ›[[Image:Many srs beans.png|Srs Bean Mafia.]] Srs Beans R Srs  06:48, 6 August 2008 (EDT)
 * No, you weren't comparing "my damage output" with "your damage output". As I said, Fetid Ground was added for the poison. Not for the cold damage. It isn't even essential. You can slot Deathly Chill instead. Rotting Flesh. There are some other options.
 * "My damage output" with this build is a lot higher than the IV variant in a challenging area. This is because every attacked target means one Putrid Bile (it will be CALLED for people to attack. This is how AP callers work.) Every attacked target also means one of each other skills.
 * The line about "relying on your team and the team relying on you is bad in HM" is the worst comment I've heard in a while. Everything in HM, indeed everything in challenging GW play, is about creating synergy between your party members. Otherwise you would, for example, never run a character without selfheal or selfprot.
 * If you'd actually run AP-based builds to any real extent, you'd known how rare it is for AP to actually get interrupted. Note, I'm not claiming it NEVER happens, but disqualifying the elite for such a niche occasion is simply dishonest.
 * See this baseline build for an example of an effective AP based build (indeed much more effective than this one) which I created some months ago: http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:N/A_Mark_of_Pain_Nuker
 * If you want some other examples of real working attempts at synergy, http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/User:Moloch/Build:Team_-_Extended_Discord_PvE_Spike and http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/User:Moloch/Build:Team_-_The_Changing_Face_Of_Pain
 * These configurations use one hero character epidemicing the called target, for _one_ example of how the poison effect can be exploited. Moloch 07:52, 6 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Heroes suck at Epidemic. They spam it on anything with conditions. If you're saying IV is a bad elite, then you're not playing a Necro correctly. In PvE, shit dies fast, and with IV, things blow up fast. You run that with Putrid/Rising Bile and Putrid Explosion and that's a hell of a lot of armor ignoring AoE damage. --[[Image:GoD Wario Sig.PNG]] * Wah Wah  Wah! * 08:26, 6 August 2008 (EDT)
 * PLEASE. This discussion again? I'll spell it out to you. Simply. IV does NOT DO ARMOR IGNORING DAMAGE. The damage output is very mediocre compared to its non-elite cousin. Rising Bile has a TWENTY SECOND RECHARGE and only provides good damage if the hex runs its course! And you say things "blow up fast in PvE", which indeed it does with good builds. Putrid Explosion wastes corpses, but it's not necessarily bad. Putrid Bile is actually a very decent spell, however the recharge is a little too high. 10 seconds would make it much better.
 * Also, you tell me I "am not playing a necro correctly"... who do you think has the most experience playing a PvE necro, you or me? Be honest. Moloch 08:41, 6 August 2008 (EDT)
 * I would say ME. I would say I have more experience playing a Necro in general, just from this standpoint. Trying to gradify yourself as the best damn Necro ever is just narcasistic. IV deals nice damage regardless. It does have a "non-elite cousin", but you use that WITH IV and you got TONS of damage and thus you have an IV NUKER. IV nukers are for when you don't have many corpses and a MM isn't needed. All good nukes have high recharges, like Meteor Shower. --[[Image:GoD Wario Sig.PNG]] * Wah Wah  Wah! * 09:03, 6 August 2008 (EDT)
 * You were the one telling me I wasn't "playing correctly". Considering your statepoints regarding various skills, I do not think you're qualified to make that assumption. And the point, which I will state once again, is this: Putrid Explosion deals damage. Putrid Bile deals damage. Rising Bile deals damage, BUT ONLY AFTER 20 SECOND UNLESS TARGET DIES BEFORE, IN WHICH CASE IT DEALS LESS DAMAGE. Icy Veins does NOT deal nice damage if you have any meaningful PvE target in front of you.
 * Oh, and that comment about MS was simply asinine. If what you consider a good nuke (MS isn't really a good example of this) has an atrocious recharge or an atrocious casting time, you try to cut it down (for MS: GoS, MS, AP.) THAT is what these kinds of builds DO, which is why this is the BETTER option. Moloch 09:13, 6 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Meteor Shower is a staple of PvE nukers. High damage, knockdowns, and a long duration win. My statepoints regarding various skills are completely correct. You're saying IV is bad, which it's not. Anyway, saying "I'm a master PvE Necromancer" is crap. PvE is easy, if you say you're a "master of it" you need to do something better, like PvP. Rising Bile is a little junky, I have to admit, but if you throw it on a seperate foe and focus Putrid/IV on another, soon it will be a big boom. IV is a good skill, how you don't get that is simply above me. I'm done with this pointless arguement, as it seems we each deny each others points, simply because we think we are right. I personally think I'm right (which I very well may be), but whatever. --[[Image:GoD Wario Sig.PNG]] * Wah Wah  Wah! * 09:30, 6 August 2008 (EDT)
 * when RB/PB/IV are all put on a single target and it dies it easily will do 200-300 damage which is comparable to MS if it hits every single time. IV does damage upon casting and when it ends and recharges every 5 seconds making it a spammable hex. if your in a low lvl area this will often kill the entire mob, in higher lvl areas u will have spread IV around on other targets so when the intial one blows up the rest will be within killing range and consquently blow up,starting a chain reaction(i can pull it off on a regular basis). on a side note i added a nice detailed usage on my discussion page for my build on how it is used since reading the discussion page of the build is to much work. i assume u play a necromancer as your primary character and therefore would also assume u would be able to actually test out the build.--Jarad the Devarkin 21:04, 6 August 2008 (EDT)

Jarad
Jarad, of course I'm able to test out the build. I have tested out the build you wrote. I know how Icy Veins works. One reason I've tested out this and various other elites is that I'm looking for an offensive hex build to complement the AP/MoP build I always have on the team.

I am not judging a build from its performance in low-level areas. Everyone knows how good IV is for farming Ornate Grawl Necklaces. Please read above, I'm tired of repeating myself. And this isn't exactly the first time I've discussed Icy Veins with anyone...

Funny though that you keep bringing up Meteor Shower... a spell with a 5 second activation time, that takes effect after 8 seconds, and has a 60 seconds recharge. It's a perfect overexaggeration of everything that's wrong with Rising Bile. Moloch 04:39, 7 August 2008 (EDT)


 * 20 recharge is not a lot in PvE, unless you're an inane rusher with ADHD. You don't need it more than once per mob >.< Or twice if you take AEcho. And you don't put it on the primary target. -- ›[[Image:Many srs beans.png|Srs Bean Mafia.]] Srs Beans R Srs  05:37, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * I thought I'd made it clear that I am aware that Rising Bile is off-targetted. Guess not.
 * General advice for everyone I've been talking to on this page:
 * Purge your archaic thinking. Ditch the Arcane Echoes and the hard-casted Meteor Showers. Stop assuming that elemental damage really matters when it counts. Stop thinking that Liquid Flame does 100+ damage. Realize that the main value of Searing Flames, if you bring it, isn't the damage, but the burning. Concentrate on reliable damage sources and reliable amplification of said damage sources. If you really want to bring elementalist nukes, cast them in an honor ward. At least they won't suck as badly then. Bring damage skills that can be spammed. If they cannot be spammed, find a way to do it anyway, or don't bring them. Don't try to be a bad elementalist when you're a necromancer, a PvE god class.
 * The end result of this thinking is builds that kill fast, and kill anywhere. Builds that do this have no use for sleep-mode 20 second recharges. Moloch 05:47, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * The end result of this thinking is builds that kill fast, and kill anywhere. Builds that do this have no use for sleep-mode 20 second recharges. Moloch 05:47, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * The end result of this thinking is builds that kill fast, and kill anywhere. Builds that do this have no use for sleep-mode 20 second recharges. Moloch 05:47, 7 August 2008 (EDT)


 * Evidently you're as I thought above. You honestly don't need to spam RB. IV is spammable, good damage, but you seem blinded by your own semi-logics, and mainly stubbornness. I've stated multiple times that it's not like everything has a fuckton of armor. But did you listen? Nope. You just kept stating "OMG WTF IDS COLD DOMAGES OLOLOLOLO LU SUXX OLOLOLOLOL. 20 RECH IS LOTS LOLOLOLOLOL". 30 recharge isn't even that much for PvE. Don't be stupid. -- ›[[Image:Many srs beans.png|Srs Bean Mafia.]] Srs Beans R Srs  05:51, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * You're right. Everything doesn't have a fuckton of armor. Everything that is any real problem killing has, though. And yes. 20 seconds recharge on a skill is bad. 30 seconds is worse. 60 seconds is an eternity. All you seem to tell us is, "bring worse builds". Moloch 05:55, 7 August 2008 (EDT)


 * A 30 second recharge is granted to a skill cause it's strong (and brave). Also, I only just noticed SH has 25. Ok, whatever, 25 is not an long rech. I'm not saying "Take piles of shit" cause I'd advocate no recharge.
 * It comes down to: You're bad for thinking strong skills are bad cause they have a few secs more recharge than your average skill.
 * Anything that's a problem to kill, takes strategy. I.e., if it's a Monk, hex stack. Don't go nuke him to fuck since it'll heal unless kncoklocked. Hey, that's another good strategy, a knocklock!
 * Don't. Be. A. Moron. -- ›[[Image:Many srs beans.png|Srs Bean Mafia.]] Srs Beans R Srs  06:01, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * I know that Savannah Heat has a 25 second recharge. That's why it sucks in PvE, unless you can find a way to bring it down. If I'd run a bar with that type of skills, Air of Superiority would be glued to my bar.
 * "Strategy?" You think I don't know how to kill PvE monks? This is the way: Mindbender->Barbs->Technobabble->Rend Enchantments->Assassin's Promise->"Finish Him!". Dead. 5 seconds. It's a boss? Offtarget Techno, or BHA, or Spear Swipe. Why would I put skills on my bar dealing trash damage or skills dealing good damage being content with them laying around unused most of the time? The real question is why you people are so bloody insistant on bringing Icy Veins. You're already stating that you get a "shitload of damage" from Putrid, Rising and Putrid Explosion. Why do you feel the pressing need to waste your elite on a hex that does just the same, only a lot worse? Moloch 06:10, 7 August 2008 (EDT)


 * I had this rather good argument, but I won't place it since you won't listen anyways. Have fun gimping your bar to kill one Monk. -- ›[[Image:Many srs beans.png|Srs Bean Mafia.]] Srs Beans R Srs  06:20, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Meh, removed my own insult. Anyway the skill chain I presented are straight cut-out from the best general PvE hex build I know of. Moloch 07:20, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Stop. Seriously, you think that since you vetted that MoP Nuker that you're instantly godmode. I've some   but you don't see me bragging about it. Anyway, SS is the best Curses bar for PvE. Period. MoP Nuker just causes an insane amount of scatter. --[[Image:GoD Wario Sig.PNG]] * Wah  Wah  Wah! * 08:41, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * I would take this statement seriously if you actually knew the first thing about playing a good physical PvE configuration or the difference between reactive and proactive hexing. Alas, as evidenced by all you write, you do not.
 * I'm no "god". However, I understand PvE. You're stuck in an outmoded thinking.
 * Also, scatter isn't bad. Scatter can be good. Scattering foes don't fight. Scattering snared foes is even better. Moloch 09:08, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * I just lol'd quite a bit. Any idiot can be a "master of PvE". It takes no skill. You just bring as much AoE as you can get and slash and burn and crush as many mobs as you want while running along a storyline. Scattering is bad for PvE. Monsters are stupid AI that can't kill you if you bring even a decent build. You want them to clump up so you can slice and dice them. Seriously, no one is a "master at PvE" and any person who has a sense of Guild Wars can "master PvE". --[[Image:GoD Wario Sig.PNG]] * Wah Wah  Wah! * 09:17, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * You write, and you write, yet you say nothing. I'm leaving this dead end of the discussion to get back to the original contention for the build. The original contention of the for the build is this:
 * When you fight monster of high armor level, that is, high-level PvE monsters, Icy Veins loses value and is surpassed in efficiency by Putrid Bile (and to a lesser extent Rising Bile). Thus, if you manage to churn out more Putrid Biles and Rising Biles at the expense of Icy Veins, you've made a stronger build. This was what I tried to achieve with this build. It isn't as strong as a similar build spec'ed in Curses, but you do only need one Mark nuker on your team. Moloch 10:19, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * IV has a 5 sec recharge, spam it about the monsters, then shit blows up, AoE wins pve. And Im better then all of you so shut up.  Frosty  No U!  10:27, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Better at getting b&, Niga. - [[Image:Panic_sig5.png]] 10:30, 7 August 2008 (EDT)