Archive talk:Team - SF/Commando

grrr, comment already.--Reason.decrystallized 14:43, 31 May 2008 (EDT)
 * imo, Slivvy tank w/e-management works better. Ace   (LVPoW) 14:47, 31 May 2008 (EDT)
 * you mean the SF slivers? well, just take it along with the bonder ... i'll add to variants.--Reason.decrystallized 14:50, 31 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Well, with Mending you are unbeatable, thats sure. --  Super Igor   *ninja!!*  16:20, 31 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Mending makes you laugh at bleeding, right in its face! --[[Image:SazSigPic.jpg|19px]] Sazzy  ( talk ) 16:24, 31 May 2008 (EDT)
 * MENDING FTW!!! no but seriously, when you combine it with protective bond and three sup runes and only PBAoE can hurt you, mending and watchful really will heal all your damage almost always.--Reason.decrystallized 16:35, 31 May 2008 (EDT)
 * TBH, the areas you can't farm with SF Permaform are few and far, and aren't really worth it. I mean the only things that can really stop it are PB/AoE damage, special enchant removers (like Sig of Disenchant) and etc. I mean I think you could even do the DoA solo (I think). --Guild of Deals * Wah Wah  Wah! * 09:11, 1 June 2008 (EDT)
 * No, you can't solo the DoA--only a very few groups in gloom. way too much PBAoE.  with this, however, you can do most of gloom, all of city, and some of Foundry to farm for gemstones.  you can also kill a lot of mobs in underworld and FoW that you couldn't (or would have trouble with) otherwise.  and, like it says, when you come to mobs that you CAN take without the hero, just flag him off.--Reason.decrystallized 09:17, 1 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I doubt this could do city, too much healing. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]] Ressmonkey (talk)  17:44, 1 June 2008 (EDT)
 * aherm--Reason.decrystallized 17:49, 1 June 2008 (EDT)
 * which is to say, i already did it, with an old version that used inspiration magic and LOWER smiting prayers than this.--Reason.decrystallized 17:51, 1 June 2008 (EDT)

55/105 Sin
I mean if you are bringing Prot Bond and hp regen skills it seems kinda obvious to me.24.67.135.184 19:12, 1 June 2008 (EDT)Wynne
 * Well you're using 3 sup runes anyway, why not?--Goldenstar 19:14, 1 June 2008 (EDT)
 * not strictly needed, but I'll add to variants.--Reason.decrystallized 19:21, 1 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Doesnt fit into that naming convention, 3 sups just lowers health to squishie form, but it still doesnt use the extra rune.--[[Image:Relyk Purifying Veil Sig.jpg|19px]]R ELYK   ʞlɐʇ ʎɯ  23:35, 4 June 2008 (EDT)

why it works on healers
1 question, how does this allow you to take on groups with monks? I see how you wouldn't have to worry about PBAoE, but how can it overcome the healing spells? Killer Hasy 14:18, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * the extra damage from strength and honor adds quite a lot. in the DoA, lightbringer helps, too.  spamming the attack skills as fast as you can will simply overpower the healers in most groups.  why?  because death blossom does AoE damage.  it doesn't just hit the monk, it hits everyone else, too.  the monk tries to heal everyone at once, wasting spell recharges and energy, then runs out and dies.  even against the big group at the end of City of Torc'qua with a monk boss and two or three other monks--they try to heal back death blossom's damage to all thirty people, and with quickening zephyr making your attacks come faster and their energy deplete faster, they run out before you do and they die.--Reason.decrystallized 14:38, 2 June 2008 (EDT)

Merge
Archive:A/E Perma Daggers Farmer and to this.-- Phail    Tock  A guide to this user. 18:55, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Infact, dont even merge, just delete them and have their title redirect to this.-- Phail [[Image:Lord Belar Epic Fail.jpg|19px]]  Tock  A guide to this user. 18:59, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * the bonder maybe, the dagger build by itself, no ... there's still plenty of stuff it can do without messing with a bonder.--Reason.decrystallized 19:08, 2 June 2008 (EDT)

please note
that you only need 23 energy before casting Glyph of Swiftness and deadly Paradox then Shadow Form, not 30. Even with 3 enrgy regen you only need 23 you'll have enough energy by the time Shadow Form Recharges.-- Phail   Tock  A guide to this user. 18:58, 2 June 2008 (EDT)

DoA
So can this solo the entire DoA, including Mallyx? Christhepirate 20:23, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * no ... mostly it's just for farming, though it can do all of city for sure, it might be able to do all of gloom, foundry is too chancy with the hero taking aggro, and stygian veil there's too much touch-based lifesteal. you might be able to throw in a ranger with symbiosis and QZ and then take critical strike and way of perfection ... maybe.  haven't even thought about mallyx, though.  it's a farmer not a mission-doer, it just happens to be able to do at least one of the missions.--Reason.decrystallized 20:33, 2 June 2008 (EDT)

This is kinda stupid but, if this can solo the entire City, how do you kill the healers? ive been having a problem with that.
 * there's a section above called "why it works on healers". also, plz sign comments with ~ .--Reason.decrystallized 03:47, 18 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Sorry about that, that was back when i was a wiki nub. Zzes Tyan 23:55, 10 November 2008 (EST)
 * we were all n00bz once.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized   I frenzy-healsig.  21:57, 21 November 2008 (EST)

Mo/Rt
Shelter and offering of spirit.-- Phail   Tock  A guide to this user. 20:59, 3 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Less E/S than OoB.  21:00, 3 June 2008 (EDT)

Better Elite
Scribes insight instead of offering of blood. If the monk spams his signets then it's a lot easier.-- Phail   Tock  A guide to this user. 21:15, 3 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Then you could take Mantra of Inscriptions+Scribe's Insight. Doesn't sounds like a bad idea, as long as you can find the room. -Mike 21:24, 3 June 2008 (EDT)

[build prof=Mo/Any hea=10+3 smi=9+3 pro=9+1+3 div=8+3][Scribe's Insight][Blessed Signet][Signet of Devotion][Rebirth][Watchful Spirit][Mending][Protective Bond][Strength of Honor][/build] This maybe? 15 energy for every bless sig, 3 for every devotion. Not sure if it's actually better. I'd think offering of blood is better overall management--Goldenstar 21:32, 3 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Needs moar Mantra of Inscriptions in there somewhere. -Mike 21:42, 3 June 2008 (EDT)
 * offering gives you a net 13 energy (14 gained, 1 spent) per 15 seconds, then there's the 20% HSR chance on a staff. that's slightly more than three pips.  in that bar, if you hit both sigs on recharge you gain an extra three every 7 seconds for SoD and three every 12 for Blessed, which is somewhat less than 2.5 pips, minus 5 every ~30 seconds for scribe's ~= .5 pips, so a net gain of under two pips.  also: heroes will use OoB, but they won't use devotion sig unless there's something to heal, so you would have to constantly micro-manage AND switch targets (you have to give the hero a target for Devotion Sig). i'll take the three pips and no micro-management, myself. yes, you could then cut the recharge with MoI, but using MoI takes half a pip (10 energy every 60 seconds), you have to give up another skill, and there's no frigging way that using it will give you another pip and a half + to equal OoB, and there's still the micromanagement problem to consider. OoB is better.--Reason.decrystallized 01:50, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Well of Power?--[[Image:Relyk Purifying Veil Sig.jpg|19px]]R ELYK   ʞlɐʇ ʎɯ  23:33, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I don't think the hero will get close enough to use a Well spell. XD Offering of Blood should be enough, actually. >.> -Mike 07:17, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
 * /agree. if your hero is close enough to use a well spell, then you're doing something wrong.--Reason.decrystallized 09:50, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 * It would be a good variant in certain places.--[[Image:Relyk Purifying Veil Sig.jpg|19px]]R ELYK   ʞlɐʇ ʎɯ  22:46, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

I've been getting quite a few people pming me and suggesting changing OoB for Martyr, even adding a second bonder for it (whats that all about lol), so i'll add a few suggestion here for what i reckon are decent alternatives. Martyr is a skill that uses energy rather than giving it like OoB, it removes conditions that will be almost certainly be instantly reapplied so the only real gain is the moral boost, and you already have enough heal as it is. So if you don't have OoB or just want to try somet else my suggestions would be Mantra of Inscriptions (obvious), LoD if your struggling at certain points and need a heal buff, or Signet of illusions (Divine 16, illusions 12). Personally i stick with OoB, if it ain't broke don't fix it :D Bogusdude 22:49, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Bonder?
How do I use that? I mean, where should I put these bonds? All of them on the 55 bonder, and he uses them himself? Forgive me that noobish question. Dr4goN ( talk /pvxcontribs ) 08:57, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 * you put them on yourself so that PBAoE doesn't kill you. it's in the usage.--Reason.decrystallized 09:51, 10 June 2008 (EDT)

Sliver Form
with succor instead of Strength of Honor. interesting variant for farming City and gloom on hm. possibly Fow as well. i mean, i can rescue the guys in gloom every single time, which is a lot of torment creatures to farm for items, lb points, etc. it iz gud.--Reason.decrystallized 20:28, 10 June 2008 (EDT)

Duncan The Black
Can this team kill Duncan The Black?--LupoOmicida 09:18, 16 June 2008 (EDT)
 * duncan reflects damage you'll have to stop attacking every few seconds and let the hero's energy recover. other than that ... i haven't ever fought him (much less with this), so I really don't know.--Reason.decrystallized 07:51, 16 June 2008 (EDT)

Destruction's Depths
Just testing this and did the whole mission easily. Avatar Kuzon 14:15, 18 June 2008 (EDT)
 * well duh, this does just about anything that doesn't have massive amounts of untargeted AoE or huge healing.--Goldenstar 14:18, 18 June 2008 (EDT)
 * So how long did it take? [[image:ViYadriaanzsig.jpg|19px]]Adr iaa nz 07:57, 19 June 2008 (EDT)
 * ....like an hour and a half maybe. lol Avatar Kuzon 10:24, 19 June 2008 (EDT)

Death Blossom & Ebon Battle Standard of Honor
Before a revert war starts, it should be shown that Death Blossom's AoE effect is not increased by EBSH. --Wyvern 21:46, 18 June 2008 (EDT)

Rotwing
I killed Rot with this a couple times. Takes a bit but it works. Take out clerics first and use deadly when your dazed or they interupt through shadow form somehow.
 * Dazed interrupts spells on application. Give it a try with headbutt. --70.118.65.182 01:30, 20 June 2008 (EDT)

Smites
I don't like the other UW farmers, with this team can i farm smites and other UW parts?--LupoOmicida 06:24, 21 June 2008 (EDT)
 * when i use this in UW i kill everything in labyrinth, the run to plains and clear out plains and bone pits, then just do whatever. but there are faster builds for just doing that.--Reason.decrystallized 07:16, 21 June 2008 (EDT)

U can't do UW with this...,smites Zealots fire will or trigger bonds so often tht they fall out and you die or dont trigger them and causes u to die regardless...
 * the only use for this in UW was killing the aatxes before you ran to the chaos planes with a daggers sin before they nerfed SF and Chaos planes both. (or doing a spider run, though it's ass-hard and requires QZ from the ranger). it just meant that you had a few more shots at an ecto per 1 plat entry fee.  if you want to farm the smites with an assassin, then perma slivers can (could) solo them.  though i've stopped playing and no longer really follow things, tbh.--Reason.decrystallized 04:25, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

nerf
haven't tested anything post-nerf, but it is possible that the same basic idea could still work, especially in Gloom with slivers. or, with a degen build involving radiation field + ether nightmare. unfortunately, i'll be out of town for a while, but i'll get on it as soon as i'm back.--Reason.decrystallized 18:35, 2 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Should still work just as good, strength of honor keeps the damage up--[[Image:Relyk Purifying Veil Sig.jpg|19px]]R ELYK   ʞlɐʇ ʎɯ  21:28, 2 July 2008 (EDT)
 * But much slower... meaning less profitable. Dutchess of Rose  aka  lukejohnson  - talk - Contributions 10:46, 10 July 2008 (EDT)

Degen could work, tested with burning speed :) --Mister Muscolo 07:48, 26 July 2008 (EDT)

buff
Supposedly they are buffing this shit today. I'm going to be so happy when this works again. i really hope it's a good buff. maybe it will be like, "but you cannot cast enchantments". That would be ok, cause you would just apply critical agility before you went in. can't wait. Avatar Kuzon 09:08, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Critical Agility probably wouldn't reapply, but you'd have to test that with something like Shadow Walk or Vow of Silence. ــмıкε  нaшк  12:50, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * damage down to -33%. but with the buff to standard of honor, the sliverform version of this becomes really, really fun again.  going to have to go kill the greater darkness one more time, for old times' sake.--Reason.decrystallized 23:15, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Yeah much better now atleast.-- R  e l y k 21:54, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

Replace
daggers sin with ?-- Phail   Tock  A guide to this user. 23:42, 9 August 2008 (EDT)
 * heres why:

The Math
If you do the math, this does more than twice as much damage as the daggers sin: Daggers attack at 1.33 seconds a hit, with critical agility its .43 seconds between hits, with double strikes its .22 seconds, but that can't happen with attack skills so its .43. While scythe attack every 1.75 seconds, with critical agility it's .57 seconds. then the damage, as the daggers sin uses Golden Fox Strike, Wild Strike, and death blossom, say every attack was a critical hit, that would be 46 + 50 + 43 + 43 to all adjacent foes in 1.24 seconds which comes to 139 damage with 43 damage to adjacent foes in 1.24 seconds, say there's two others. With a scythe saying you get a critical hit every time and are using victorious strike you do 71 damage + 71 to 2 other foes + 71 + 71 to two other foes + 105 + 105 damage to two other foes, plus if you have max kurzick you do an additional 32% more damage which is 247 + 79 from AoHM is 326 damage and 326 to adjacent foes in  in 1.71 seconds. So, you have... So, even with the .3 second difference, the scythe does %230 more damage then daggers. -- Phail   Tock  A guide to this user. 00:10, 10 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Daggers - 139 damage with 43 damage to adjacent foes in 1.24 seconds
 * Scythe - 326 damage and 326 to adjacent foes in in 1.71 seconds
 * The math is probably a lot more complicated than that because you have to factor overall DPS (meaning, auto-attacks). I have no doubt, however, that the scythe version kills faster. ــмıкε  нaшк  00:12, 10 August 2008 (EDT)
 * There's chance of critical hits and all the difference +dmgs, too. ــмıкε  нaшк  00:13, 10 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Also, if you take into consideration the amount of damage done to adjacent foes here's what you get.


 * Daggers - 43 Damage to adjacent foes at the end of 1.9 seconds.
 * Scythe - 326 damage to adjacent foes in the entire time of the attack chain. which is 283 more damage, so 230% faster kills for foes to making you almost wipe out an entire mob in about 2 seconds, so thats 420% more efficency than daggers.
 * also, i said, say you land a critical hit every time (all three times in a row).-- Phail [[Image:Phail Sig Pic.jpg|19px]]  Tock  A guide to this user. 00:17, 10 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Not to mention Strength of Honour will actually work. Drag  nmn   talk cont  17:20, 13 August 2008 (EDT)


 * Also, take note that damage calculation paragraph is wrong on many, many, many points. And doesn't factor in the fact Scythes don't have AoE, but multiple hit, meaning DB will more often hit several, whilst your scythe won't. -- ›[[Image:Many srs beans.png|Srs Bean Mafia.]] <font color="#27408B">Srs Beans R Srs  17:23, 13 August 2008 (EDT)
 * That depends how you look at it; Death Blossom can only be used every ~4 seconds, while the Scythe hits 3 targets on every hit. Death Blossom's AoE also isn't increased by Asuran Scan or Strength of Honor. ــмıкε  нaшк  17:31, 13 August 2008 (EDT)


 * Scythes will rarely hit 3 people. DB can be used every 3 seconds, assuming 33% IAS (not 67%, as is taken in the math paragraph). DB hits shit behind your target. DB can hit >5 with a little luck and tanking skillz. -- ›[[Image:Many srs beans.png|Srs Bean Mafia.]] <font color="#27408B">Srs Beans R Srs  17:40, 13 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Death Blossom may have a 2 second recharge, but both the Lead and Off-hand have 4 second recharges, meaning every 4 seconds. Death Blossom only deals 20 AoE DPS, whereas the Scythe can hit 3 foes EVERY attack. So, unless you're fighting 8+ monsters at a time, the Scythe will kill faster. ــмıкε  нaшк  17:58, 13 August 2008 (EDT)


 * MS/DB? And you presumably either Trinity everything, or don't play PvE at all. You'll rarely find 3 enemies close enough to hit them all with a Scythe, since they always try to bodyblock you in (if they even all attack you >.> ). DB would hit at least 2, if not all 3. Your scythe would with a little overaggro hit 2.
 * Casters neither stand that close to one-another. Honestly. Don't get all hyped up about scythes triple-hitting, cause it mainly occurs in RA. -- ›[[Image:Many srs beans.png|Srs Bean Mafia.]] <font color="#27408B">Srs Beans R Srs  18:02, 13 August 2008 (EDT)

You can't use Moebius Strike, you have Shadow Form, and balling up casters isn't hard in PvE. ــмıкε нaшк  18:33, 13 August 2008 (EDT)


 * Are we all considering the 50% damage nerf on SF here? Because if so, somebody stop me from enterring the UW in 5 minutes :P <font color="Red">FromStokoe 18:10, 15 August 2008 (EDT)
 * It's only 33% now, but UW is better done with Archive:A/E Lava Planes Farmer. ــмıкε  нaшк  18:21, 15 August 2008 (EDT)

gloom hm
doing the first quest ,but when 5 mobs remaining the dmg isnt high to kill them.any help?
 * round up all the guys at the start. then drag them to the next group, aggro the next group, then walk back into the middle of the originals, using the next group's attacks to boost damage.  and so on.  that's if you're using the slivers.  with daggers, don't do HM, and hit the healers first.  actually, always stand next to the healers anyway so that sliver armor has a higher chance of targeting them.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized    I frenzy-healsig.  12:10, 21 September 2008 (EDT)

i used slivers(r4 lb,r3 ebon)i killed all healers and derv mobs and then all the remaining mobs exept the last...(cause not much dmg of slivrs)after some mins it copied itself and the after some mins the other mob copied itself and.....i tried pulling other nonquest group for more dmg but the original group didnt foloowed me enough.62.1.248.71 15:00, 21 September 2008 (EDT)
 * eh, those copies don't drop items or give xp or lb points. so just walk away from them.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized    I frenzy-healsig.  11:07, 22 September 2008 (EDT)

can anyone post a guide for doing all quests at gloom (finishing gloom)?
 * i'll do it at some point. haven't really done it after the nerf (and also stopped playing GW), but it WAS possible (see here, and should still be.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized    I frenzy-healsig.  16:56, 11 October 2008 (EDT)
 * watch the HM video link for instructions Bogusdude 16:18, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Is Shards of Orr possible?
would be pretty nice to know if anyone would test it Zzes Tyan 00:30, 11 November 2008 (EST)
 * i never tried it. off the top of my head, the biggest problem would be shock interrupting shadow form, which they're good at, followed closely by there being lots of healing without having enough mobs (like in city) to drain their energy to nothing as they try to heal back death blossom's damage to a million critters.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized    I frenzy-healsig.  18:33, 11 November 2008 (EST)
 * They'd have to be pretty lucky to interrupt SF because Shock is a 3/4 second cast (unless you're in Hard Mode, and in that case, they probably would interrupt you) and SF is a 0.67 second cast because of Deadly Paradox. They're more likely to interrupt your Glyph, though. ــмıкε  нaшк  21:54, 11 November 2008 (EST)
 * Bring iau then-- Shadow [[Image:Relyk Sig.gif]] 23:21, 21 November 2008 (EST)

archive
SF nerf makes this very inefficient with the daggers version of the sin. discuss. <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">17:06, 15 December 2008 
 * change to the slivers. i'll get on it tomorrow probably.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized    I frenzy-healsig.  20:26, 15 December 2008 (EST)
 * although tbh daggers would still work in city NM because of quickening zephyr.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized   I frenzy-healsig.  20:28, 15 December 2008 (EST)

Re-Evaluation, please
Can someone proove that today (past December 12th, 2008) this build can be used in DoA? I tried with daggers and with sliver and the results have been .... not goot. In the city I couldn't kill a single opponent - the two healers easily outhealed the damage. Also There's not just QZ but also Famine as a spirit making the signet almost a must which also disallows for the dagger build as without the 33% IAS it just sucks. With the much shorter time of SF you just cannot keep up pressure - sliver DOES deal damage but as you cannot target the monks ...

Ravenheart I managed to kill 2 or 3 but after that the monks easily outhealed every damage I dealt. I tried daggers and went fot the monks right from the start. No chance ... you need the signet, else you run out of energy and I never managed to get a monk to even less than half health.

So - either I am doing something fundamentally wrong or this build just no longer works in DoA and the references should be removed. UW has no healing so it shoudl still work down there.79.216.205.234
 * slivers should still work fine.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized   I frenzy-healsig.  10:29, 28 December 2008 (EST)
 * Can someone please confirm that sliver is still working (or any other build) ? And preferably post how to do it. I have a hard time to kill the monks as well since I can't target them. Can't even get past the first group with only 1 monk in it, not to mention that groups with 2 monks will be pretty much impossible. I tried the dagger build in NM as well and it was way worse. Couldn't drop a single target since the monk just outhealed me, even if I hit a whole bunch.
 * Dagger is still working on nm, can clear whole city, (R7 LB, R6 Asura) but very slow. I did it twice. 3 hours and 2 hours respectivity. lol...
 * So I tried Sliver, It is working on hm! (Not sure nm) (R7 LB, R7 Vanguard). Can be completed within 1 hour. I did it 3 times, 1 hours 6 mins, 59 mins and 51 mins respectivity.
 * Sliver is still working in HM city SS--Cruel Atomic Bomber 08:41, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * good to know it hasn't fallen out of use. :)--Reason.decrystallized 11:10, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * This setup still works fine in DoA, i've added links to Gloom NM and HM full run videos which i knocked up this weekend Bogusdude 16:15, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
 * vids are awesome, way to be. (i wrote you on youtube, too)--Reason.decrystallized 00:13, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

PvE meta?
could some pls tell me why this is pve meta? in which way this is profitable? Illoyon 21:29, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * have you read the definition of meta..? Just asking, I don't know crap. -- -Ch  ao  s-   21:35, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * it's commonly used for permasins, one of the most common behind plain permasliver. --[[Image:Tai_Sig.png]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">21:50, 3 March 2009 

Energy concerns
Since the reduction in duration, I've been toying around with this. It uses a Zealous Scythe for lolenergymanagement. It causes pretty ample degen among an entire group (assuming the group is one species) and has no energy concerns. Of course, relying on degen can lead to the problem: What about non-fleshy mobs? In came this:

Brawling Headbutt can obviously be taken over Club of a Thousand Bears, as can "I am the Stongest!".

Just thought I'd share. Keep in mind that a (non-collector) scythe, without any points in Scythe Mastery, deals $$21 * \sqrt{2} \approx 30$$ damage on a crit, which is higher than dagger damage. Of course, daggers attack faster and have a double strike chance, but scythes can hit up to 3 foes. The breakdown becomes rather situational for damage but favors scythes for energy management.

(Calculations were done assuming you were facing groups of 5 of more level 26 mobs which lacked healing, wielding Zealous, 15^50 versions of either weapon.)

Hope someone puts this to use.

··· Danny   Does   Drugs  22:12, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Zzz, just put succor on the hero and bring a zealous scythe and energy is fine. On that second bar you have malicious with no conditions.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 23:15, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
 * YAAW doesn't cause weakness anymore? zz. It also has bigger damage than daggers in some cases. (Namely because you don't have to worry about energy at all.) Why bother with daggers if you're bringing a zealous scythe anyway? =P ··· Danny   Does   Drugs  23:17, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I thought YAAW was I am the strongest lol. Anyways, basically what I'm saying is run sliverform because it's better.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 23:20, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Only if you've got a lot of enemies. Dealing ~30 damage every second for 10 seconds is not a whole lot of damage if you're down to one mob. =/ ··· Danny   Does   Drugs  22:38, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

no one uses the daggers version anymore, it got nerfed to hell. take the slivers with GoLE, take succor on the bonder, if you're doing city HM take lightbringer signet thing (cba to look up name) and you're fine.--Reason.decrystallized 23:22, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * True dagger version isnt so great. My friend told me it doesnt do enough damage to kill groups with healers. Playing Is Srs Bsns 17:28, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
 * idk whether it would still work or not, but once upon a time, it did.--Reason.decrystallized 18:08, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
 * soh buff makes autoattacking powerful on daggersin--Relyk 02:37, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Varriant Attributes?
The attributes for the varriant bonder are not fully used; 10-10-9-4 makes you still have 20 points left Tjubutsi 14:13, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

2 Hero Variant
Back in the day, before seeing this on Wiki, I came up with nearly an identical build. Then I came on here & saw this or something similar, but could never seem to find it again. Anyway, my variant uses 2 Heros & has more dmg, but same if not better survivability. I'm interested in feedback on this... - 420  15:32, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Invulnerable Form w/heroes


 * Old build, for certain farming, mainly for those with few or no PvE-unique skills.
 * Slow killing, but 'sin is effectively invulnerable to everything but non-targetted enchantment removal.

Perma Sin

Orders Bonder

Martyr Bonder


 * Holy exploding talk page, Batman! Next time you want us to tell you how terrible your build is, just make a new build page. Also, that build is terrible. ··· [[File:Danny-sig.png]] 16:16, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yea man, I see your reasoning perfectly /sarcasm. Next time you want to tell someone how bad you think a build is, it helps to  actually explain your reasoning.  Especially considering what I posted is exactly the same concept as the existing build (swap WoP for Asura Scan!), but with more dmg & survivability.... - [[Image:Ins420sig.png]] 420  16:37, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
 * wat. go make a build page for it, then i'll decide whether or not it's worth my time to tell you why its bad. ··· [[File:Danny-sig.png]] 20:52, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
 * LOL damn you're lazy & rude.... - [[Image:Ins420sig.png]] 420 16:42, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
 * and you must be new to pvx. ··· [[File:Danny-sig.png]] 20:52, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Nah, but even if that were the case, it's no reason to be an elitist douche to any1 on here. Or were you just insinuating I should be used to rude ppl who can't take a minute or 2 to justify their smarmy remarks?  Also, during the past 3 yrs I've never seen you  on here (or either of the other GW Wikis) before today, so for all you or I know, I've been around just as long if not longer... but length of membership don't mean shit.  Anyway, here ya go, just for you:  Archive:Team - Invulnerable Sin.  Bout the only thing different/less good is the fact of having an extra bot, & maybe some energy issues if dealing with ridiculous amounts of dmg leaking thru SF.  And to reiterate, it's not necessarily meant for the same places as SF Commando, it's simply something I've used since before SF Commando was on wiki, & I felt like sharing when I saw the striking similarities. - [[Image:Ins420sig.png]] 420  21:53, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
 * tl;dr. I'll look over it tomorrow. I just got off work and i cbf getting on PvX at home. ··· [[File:Danny-sig.png]] 22:39, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
 * insidious used to contribute to wiki awhile ago, so you wouldnt know him danny--Relyk 21:23, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

glints challenge?
can you use this to do glints challeng? i know you can just use perma sf to solo first wave but im wondering if with this you can now do rest of them, i am a bit far off from testing this myself and so is my dad, so i was wondering if anyone could test this, thanks in advance.

by the way i havnt signed in cause i havnt got a abount on here and i cant rea be bothered to make one just to ask 1 question, sorry if that is an inconvienience for you but cest la vie. EDIT: ima just use aroa t the end of my messages to identify it as me
 * vampiric weapon wont let you iirc--Relyk 21:21, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

i dont see any problem with vampiric wepon if you use sliver varient. ARO

Does this really still do City in DoA?
I've been having a hard time using this in both City and the Tombs due to 'Fear Me!' being used to unpredictably. Is there another variant of this that counters the energy loss from 'Fear Me!'?
 * have you watched the video for DoA City and used the builds i provided there? Energy shouldn't really be a problem if your using QZ and LB Sig properly. AoS could help counter energy problems in ToPK, although you wanna be doing that solo imo, you should be able to clear the riders and terrorwebs in 2-3 mins with a sliver build, nothing else there drops ecto. AMe can probably clear the room quicker but sliver works best for drops if your just after the ecto.

Dhuum
Peopel are talking about that the dagger version can solo Dhuum it looks posible but can anybody confirm it?
 * Well it could probably solo dhuum (with prot bond) but to solo dhuum you have to finish UW, and skeles will eat you alive <font color="Black" face="Comic Sans" size="3">Tyrael [[Image:Life Sheath.jpg|19px]] <font color="Red"> PewPew  22:42, February 17, 2010 (UTC)