PvXwiki talk:Evaluating Administrators

In all likelihood, this "policy" will be made official very shortly (perhaps even by the end of the day). Because it isn't going to go through the normal channels (i.e. Proposal, discussion, etc.), I feel like I should explain why that is the case. This policy is geared exclusively to the Bureaucratic staff. The general community isn't being given a say because demotions and evaluations aren't their responsibility, nor will they be affected by it, and, as such, have no standing by which to contest it. In fact, even the Sysop staff isn't going to get a real say on this because, while they may be affected by it, they're also the subject of the evaluations and, just like with the general populace, the Sysops are not the ones doing the evaluations nor the demotions. Finally, this policy is simply a statement of a power which has long been held by the Bureaucratic staff regardless of the policy itself. This policy is merely meant to more clearly delineate such evaluations. *Defiant Elements*  +talk  01:07, 15 August 2007 (CEST)
 * It never says what happens. All the article says is that you're evaluating them, theres no punishment stated =P &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Skakid9090. 05:07, 16 August 2007 (CEST)
 * I think it makes pretty clear that if we do decide there is a serious problem we demote... [[Image:Defiant Elements Sig Test 2.JPG|50x19px]] *Defiant Elements*   +talk  05:18, 16 August 2007 (CEST)
 * i dont like to beat around the bush hehe &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Skakid9090. 05:21, 16 August 2007 (CEST)

To Whom It May Concern
In discussing this policy with a number of Bureaucrats and Sysops, most notably Krowman, one of the things that I have noticed is that the problems people have with this policy tend to be primarily semantic in nature. What I mean is that people dislike the idea that it's an "evaluation" rather than a "discussion," or they feel that the policy comes off as to "Big Brother-ish," or they feel that the wording as is will create divisions amongst the Admins. So, let me start by saying that I honestly did not intend the policy to do any of these things, and, indeed, I struggled for quite a while over the wording doing my best to alleviate such problems. However, I know that that doesn't always work as well as I would like. As a result, I've been doing my best to sound out the whole Administrative team before even considering making this policy official in it's current state. Accordingly, I urge anyone who sees such a problem or would just like to discuss the policy to contact me on MSN or through some other venue. *Defiant Elements*  +talk  23:08, 15 August 2007 (CEST)

More time
I think this policy needs some more time in draft. Other users may be interested in checking it out and maybe want to discuss it a bit more. From nothing to official in 1 days seems a bit quick for me. gcardinal 23:05, 15 August 2007 (CEST)


 * I agree with it though whenever it is ready. We kinda need some policy on reviewing admins. [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] frvwfr2  (T/C/RFA) 23:36, 15 August 2007 (CEST)

Disscussion Before Evaluation
I feel that at first the disscussion of a sysop should be more generic. Saying things like "I generally like this person and what they do, though they can be promblomatic from time to time." If it comes down to a second evaluation, I think that's when specific instances should be brought up. ‽ -(єяøהħ) no u 04:06, 16 August 2007 (CEST)
 * This is one of those "semantic" points I discussed in the "To Whom It May Concern" note. While I use the terms "review" and "evaluation," and, while I also add a couple of notes about "what we look for," discussion might be an accurate term as well depending on the circumstances.  [[Image:Defiant Elements Sig Test 2.JPG|50x19px]]  *Defiant Elements*   +talk  05:18, 16 August 2007 (CEST)

Review of User:Frvwfr2
Proposing a review of Frv since he doesn't really contribute positively to the wiki and does mostly janitorial work that most people could do. At least needs to be told to stop trying to be a Build Master when he clearly has limitid Knowledge of the game itself. --F rosty 13:10, 15 December 2008 (EST)

Review & Reconfirmation of Current Admins
We need to review the status of many of the admins. Several of the "active" admins are inactive and should either be retired or something similar. Also, I feel that there's a need to re-evaluate and reconfirm the current administrators. Many of them do a wonderful job; however, some are not currently contributing to the wiki in any constructive way.

Inactivity and negatively contributing to the wiki are both against the policy and in my mind these factors should warrant a review of the entire administrative team. However, it seems that our review process can only be done by a bureaucrat, unlike on GuildWiki where a consensus among users warrants starting a new RfA page that reconfirms the admin's position.

I think we need to either add a policy that allows the PvXWiki community to start a review of an admin or something similar that allows the users of PvXWiki to reconfirm our admins. Otherwise our admins have no accountability to the users of the wiki; they only have accountability to the bureaucrats which in turn is not fair to the users of this wiki.

Here is a link to the GuildWiki policy for reconfirmation of current sysops. I think we should have something similar that allows users to judge whether or not we feel our admins are doing their jobs. Karate Jesus (Talk | contribs) (→12:20, 4 February 2009 - )
 * Which sysops do you feel are being destructive? They could be worth reviewing, but I don't really see lack of contribution or inactivity as valid reasons for reconfirmation. - [[Image:Miserysig.PNG|117px]] (talk)  12:29, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * I don't think it matters who I feel needs to be reviewed. What matters is that inactivity is against the policy of being an admin as well as not contributing positively. I think most users on wiki would agree with me that it's time for a reconfirmation of all current admins. Some may be reconfirmed, some may not, but the users of wiki have the right to be a part of the process of deciding that. Oh, and btw, I wouldn't have expected any current admins to be behind this idea because it puts your ass on the line and makes you guys responsible for the manner in which you've been contributing. But, I could be wrong. Karate Jesus (Talk | contribs) (→12:34, 4 February 2009 - )
 * you also have to remember that admins have a RL =). While we try to leave notes on our userpage if we're going to be inactive (or reduced activity) for a given period of time, it might not always be possiable...That point aside, i have no objection to the idea, but then again the main person you have to convince it's worthwhile is Auron, he'd be the main person making any decisions (obviously the rest of the admins would have a say, but ultimately it's Auron's decision).  ~ PheNaxKian Sysop   12:38, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * And then it all goes to Auron and yea, back to square one. [[Image:Frostrage.jpg|19px]]Frosty  po!  12:39, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * What Frosty said is exactly why we need a policy that allows the users of pvx to review the work of an admin w/o the oversight of a bureaucrat. We shouldn't have to beg the "higher ups" in order to review the people who supposedly work for our best interest. Karate Jesus (Talk | contribs) (→12:42, 4 February 2009 - )
 * By the by, GCardinal is also the wrong person to contact. He is a server side Bcrat, the people you want to get in contact with are Auron and Defiant Elements. - [[Image:Miserysig.PNG|117px]] (talk)  12:44, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * I copied it on Auron's page and I'll copy it on DE's page too in a sec. And Phen, if some of you guys are too busy to help out the wiki, then retire and let someone else do your job. Otherwise, the wiki will continue to become more and more inactive and die even before GW does. Karate Jesus (Talk | contribs) (→12:45, 4 February 2009 - )
 * Yeah... but the problem with that is that DE and GCardinal aren't very active on the wiki. You'd be better off emailing them or contacting DE on GWW. Also, I will point out again, retiring an admin doesn't make "more room" for new people to come in, it just takes away people who could potentially fix problems in a time of need. If there is someone you think who is worthy of being an admin, RfA them. There is no limit on the number of admins and "we don't need more admins" is not a valid reason to oppose. Votes using that reason will be ignored as will votes saying "we need more admins" in the opposite case. - [[Image:Miserysig.PNG|117px]] (talk)  12:49, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * Misery, your "job" as an admin is to help clean up the wiki, help it run smoothly, and make sure the policies are followed. Well, one of the policies is that inactivity as an admin is not to be tolerated. In other words, you have a responsibility to the users of PvX to clean up the inactive admins. BUT, you keep missing the main point that I'm making. Admins need to be held accountable to the people they represent. To me, that means there needs to be a full admin team review AND we need a policy that allows a consensus of users to start one. Karate Jesus (Talk | contribs) (→12:57, 4 February 2009 - )
 * Oh, and I'm not saying that we need more admins. I'm saying that there needs to be a way that the community can decide when an admin is not doing their job and throw their ass out. Overall, the point is to improve the quality of the wiki through accountability. I want admins to do their jobs well, that's all. Karate Jesus (Talk | contribs) (→12:59, 4 February 2009 - )
 * Any chance you could drop the accusatory tone? A full administrative review seems to be a bit of a waste of time to me. Being a good sysop will sometimes require making unpopular decisions, that is one reason why bcrat discretion is required at the moment for a review to take place. I find it questionable that no comment was even made when a review of Frv was requested, but I can't think of another case where a review was even called for. One thing you are perhaps forgetting, you don't get to vote on administrators, it's not a election, it's Bcrat discretion again. Even if we had a "reconfirmation", the Bcrats could completely ignore the results. If you want to me to be re-evaluated, request it. I don't fear for my position. If you want any other administrator to be re-evaluated, request it. I can tell you now Auron isn't going to want to review every sysop right now. - [[Image:Miserysig.PNG|117px]] (talk)  13:05, 4 February 2009 (EST)

There's no benefit to remove sysop status from inactive admins; they have proven to be responsible and helpful to the wiki, inactive or not doesn't change that. However, a problem with removing sysop status from inactive admins is if said admins do come back and sees a vandal which needs immediate attention, then find out he/she cannot ban said vandals. In fact, this whole thing is merely an excuse to start some drama. Our sysops are fine, if we need a review, just contact auron. Either way, we still have to go through a bureaucrat, so just leave the system be.Pika Fan  13:03, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * No, the system is not fine. And I don't want the inactive admins to be retired. R e a d. I want the active admins who are inactive to be placed on the inactive list like they should be. And that's not the main point anyway.
 * I'm sorry, Misery. I'm not trying to be accusatory. I just really believe this needs to happen. And I don't care if the bcrats completely ignore the votes. I just think we need some system of review that allows the community to hold our admins accountable, much like GuildWiki has (although, they get to vote on their admins as well). And please stop thinking that I'm gunning for any specific admins, Misery. I'm not. I'm not gunning for you or anyone else. I just think it would improve the quality of the wiki if the users were given the right to evaluate our administrators. I am very surprised to find out that this site is run the way it is, considering that GuildWiki is run in such a different way. Karate Jesus (Talk | contribs) (→13:13, 4 February 2009 - )
 * too lazy to change anything, i "replied" after pika. Like Pika said, there's no need to remove inactive sysops or BCrats from their respective user group, the only time that would be necessary is if they're leaving the wiki, or they're going to be gone for a really long period of time, without checking on the wiki occasionally (I believe DE still checks in every so often, even if it's not to contribute). As for the current active admins, that's why this policy exists. If you feel an admin is doing a shit job, bring it up on here first and allow some discussion to be had, if it reaches the point where the community agrees that something needs to be done, Auron can step in, he can talk it over with the admin in question, and decide what to do from there.  ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#9400D3">Sysop   13:10, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * Again, you're missing the main point. I don't care as much about inactive admins as I do accountability. I think the inactive "active" members should be placed on the inactive list, that's all for that. And, Phen, I'm doing exactly what you said the second time except rather than bringing it up for just one admin, I'm suggesting that all the admins should be reviewed. Karate Jesus (Talk | contribs) (→<font face="Arial" color="gray">13:16, 4 February 2009 - ) 13:16, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * Would it surprise you also to know that our bcrats can't really change? There is no election process, GCardinal just does it on a whim. I believe Auron and DE are contracted as Bcrats atm. Also, I think you SHOULD be gunning for specific admins, otherwise the whole thing seems pointless. - [[Image:Miserysig.PNG|117px]] (talk)  13:18, 4 February 2009 (EST)

While we're on the topic, Dont is an awful admin. Carry on. Tab 13:19, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * So is auron [[Image:Frostrage.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> po!  13:21, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * No, I knew that and I'm ok with it. And I don't see a need to gun for a current admin, because apparently it gets no response as Frosty found out earlier on this page. Our system of review is flawed. That's what I'm saying. The users SHOULD have the ability to "elect" our admins as the policy says, but according to you guys we don't even vote for our own admins.....which doesn't even make sense. There needs to be a change. Karate Jesus (Talk | contribs) (→<font face="Arial" color="gray">13:22, 4 February 2009 - )
 * I can't quote GWiki policy, because I don't know it, but it's the same on GWW, the votes are just advisory, at the end sysops being elected is left up to Bcrat discretion. That being said, they hold real elections for Bcrats. - [[Image:Miserysig.PNG|117px]] (talk)  13:24, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * I was actually using GWWiki's policy as a reference. I only accidentally said GWiki. According to GWW policy, an RfA page can be created to reconfirm or not reconfirm a sysop if there is a consensus among users. And according to our policy, there can be a full team review....done by a bureaucrat....fuck square one again. Karate Jesus (Talk | contribs) (→<font face="Arial" color="gray">13:28, 4 February 2009 - )

izzy is an aweful skill balancer, please hit him with his nerf bat and then find another skill balancer<font color="#009933">CloseImpact<font color="#003300"> Pet Whale  13:27, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * Backing up through this Tl;Dr, Karate you think that admins should be held accountable to the people they represent? With a population of 95% trolls I hardly call that a fair assessment of the job they are doing. ﮎHædõ๘ یíɳ [[image:Shadowsin_sig.PNG|19px]] 13:31, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * That's a good point, but there are ways around that. The bcrats aren't going anywhere apparently, so let them have the final say in what happens, but let the community vote at least. But there should be some type of repercussions for admins that aren't doing their jobs and we have should have the right to evaluate whether or not that's true. Karate Jesus (Talk | contribs) (→<font face="Arial" color="gray">13:34, 4 February 2009 - )

PvX is an online popularity contest, so until it stops being so, admins should not have to be held accountable to the community.<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Pika <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Fan  13:35, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * @KJesus:On GWW the outcome of the vote is still decided by Bcrats. Remember, this is not a democracy. - [[Image:Miserysig.PNG|117px]] (talk)  13:37, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * Are you replying to me :o?<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Pika <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Fan  13:38, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * Pika, they represent us. They should be accountable. That's just a fucktarded comment. And read what I said right before you, "so let them [bcrats] ave the final say in what happens". It's not like they wont be allowed to be admins anymore, I'm sure Auron wouldn't let that happen, but they need to be accountable to us. And Mis, it still wouldn't be a democracy. Our votes are at least considered in a democracy. Karate Jesus (Talk | contribs) (→<font face="Arial" color="gray">13:40, 4 February 2009 - )
 * No, but this page is a mess. I'll also point out I find it funny how he seems to be fighting for "a right to choose" which nobody else seems to want, so far at least he is the only person who seems to be in favour of this. - [[Image:Miserysig.PNG|117px]] (talk)  13:41, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * Ah, I see what your saying now. There's nothing to stop you from editing the list on the PvX:ADMIN page yourself and changing those you feel are inactive, to inactive, there's no need for an evaluation for that part. The list can be edited by anyone, and as long as your right (putting them inactive when they've not been on for say a month would be all right, and if it turns out they are active, the edit can just be reverted =p). As for the review of the whole team...I'd have to point you to what Misery said, I doubt Auron's gonna do a full administrative review without any great need...KJ, what Misery said is partially true...while it's true that a user who gets overwhelming support can be declined (or the other way around), the BCrats will at least look at the reasons put down and see if they hold any merit. As for the reconfirmation process, like they hold on GWW, i'd suggest making a little section under this one with suggestions about changing the policy to reflect a similar process (or even a new policy altogether if you feel it's significantly different). <font color="#4F94CD"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#9400D3">Sysop   13:43, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * @KJ Umm...no? Case in point please look at the two newest BM applications. You must be blind if you can't see 3/4 or more of us aren't capable of objectivity. <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Pika <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Fan  13:43, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * Mis, I'm just trying to make a point and I think this will improve the wiki, so quit being a dick. And at least on GWW the users get to vote for their bureaucrats, . And might I remind you that the only person here agreeing with you who isn't an admin is Pika.....pika for god's sakes. Karate Jesus (Talk | contribs) (→<font face="Arial" color="gray">13:46, 4 February 2009 - )
 * I don't see how weakening the position of admins helps the wiki. If admins have to be concerned that someone will request reconfirmation every time they ban someone, it may stop them from taking necessary actions. I'm not "being a dick" (which breaches NPA btw ;o), this is actually the way I feel about it. Also, I don't actually represent the user base at all, that's not my job. As a final aside, yes GWW has a formal reconfirmation process, I've seen it "used" twice, both times it was ignored and no reconfirmation took place. - [[Image:Miserysig.PNG|117px]] (talk)  13:48, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * So? I daresay I am more objective and my logic is way clearer than your's when it's time to be serious. Kindly refrain from personal attacks while discussing something serious.<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Pika <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Fan  13:49, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * Thanks, Phen. That's a good idea. I'll look at the policy on GWW and put something similar to it. I'm guessing that I should probably just completely ignore that GWW users vote for their bureaucrats, huh? I have my answer, so now I'm done here. Oh, and Mis, I'm sure you'll ignore that NPA because you have ignored many, many like it. Also, I didn't personally attack you. I suggested that you stop a certain type of behavior. Karate Jesus (Talk | contribs) (→<font face="Arial" color="gray">13:50, 4 February 2009 - )
 * If I was going to ban you for it, you'd already be banned tbh. - [[Image:Miserysig.PNG|117px]] (talk)  13:53, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * Threaten me if you want, but we're done here. Phen is apparently the only person capable of answering the question in an appropriate manner. Karate Jesus (Talk | contribs) (→<font face="Arial" color="gray">13:55, 4 February 2009 - )
 * That's not a threat. You seem to discuss things in an odd manner. That's what all that wall of text above you is, discussion. There will be more of it when you make your suggestions. - [[Image:Miserysig.PNG|117px]] (talk)  13:58, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * Naturally, your idea of "appropriate" is to have things go your way.<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Pika <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Fan  14:00, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * sigh. KJ, i'm glad you thought it's a good idea, and i look forward to seeing what you put together. But we generally don't vote on our BCrats because...well i don't exactly know why >.>;. In any case, there's normally very little need for a BCrat anyway, the only time we actually need a BCrat is when a user needs Promoting/demoting (which doesn't happen too often). Over on GWW, from what i understand, a BCrat is limited to BCrat only "powers", they're only to use their sysop privileges when there's no sysop on to deal with a situation, which is one reason we don't have similar policies to them (we allow BCrats to have sysop privileges and use them at their discretion). Just because we don't have any means for requesting BCratship, doesn't mean you can't =p. There's nothing to stop you talking to auron (or probably GCard in this case...) and saying "user X would probably make a good BCrat because..." (Truthfully with Auron the only active Wiki side BCrat there may be a need for another one). Finally for the little NPAs. i think Misery was poking fun at how strict GWW is, they would consider "stop being a dick" NPA. Generally we like tpo belive our users can handle something like that =p. As for the countless other NPA's you see, if you feel they're really NPA, bring it up on the AN, or an admins talk page ;) (or via e-mail/MSN if you'd prefer to remain discreet). <font color="#4F94CD"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#9400D3">Sysop   14:04, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * I just want to see the wiki work better and I would like the users to feel that they are actually represented appropriately. Pika, trust me when I say that I did not expect this to go over well. Hell, I thought I'd get banned for just suggesting it. That's how bad I feel this is and also why it is necessary. Karate Jesus (Talk | contribs) (→<font face="Arial" color="gray">14:05, 4 February 2009 - )
 * Thanks, Phen. And about the NPA's I was actually referring to other places where Misery has ignore NPAs, not necessarily on this page. And I don't care if people NPA me, so I don't see any reason to put it on the AN or report it. I'll think about email Auron (although that might be a dead end). I will probably email GCardinal. Karate Jesus (Talk | contribs) (→<font face="Arial" color="gray">14:09, 4 February 2009 - )

As you all know, I'm inactive, for all intents and purposes (though I do log on occasionally to check my watchlist and I can still be readily contacted via email, if necessary), so I probably wouldn't be hugely involved in any reconfirmations if they were to take place. However, Karate brought this thread to my attention, so I'll add my two cents. I have no qualms with a formal, on-wiki reconfirmation process initiated by the users-at-large, so long as the Bureaucrats retain the final say. I realize that there probably aren't very many users left who remember the discussions we had back when PvX was in its infancy regarding RfAs, but this post is a fairly accurate assessment of my feeling on reconfirmations (though it was obviously written with regard to RFAs). Two things I will say, however; first off, I think having reconfirmations for the entire administrative team is a waste time. Unless people have concrete complaints about each and every one of the sysops, when/if reconfirmations become part of policy, the reconfirmations that take place should be targeted. Second off, and I just wanna make this real clear, reconfirmations shouldn't be started for admins on the sole basis of inactivity. *Defiant Elements*  +talk  15:33, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * I absolutely agree with you DE and thanks for responding. Below I have suggested a way to do this while still allowing the bureaucrats to have the final say (ignore the first suggestion, look at the second). After being involved in this discussion, I also agree with you that admins should not lose their status solely based on inactivity. Since there is no hard cap on the limit of sysops, there is no reason not to just add inactive admins to the inactive list (hopefully we'll have more active than not). Thank you for addressing this and I would appreciate it if you would look over my last suggestion. Karate Jesus (Talk | contribs) (→<font face="Arial" color="gray">15:39, 4 February 2009 - )

Reconfirmation
Reconfirmation is a process by which a sysop is reconfirmed in his role as sysop. If the reconfirmation fails, the person in question loses sysop status. The reconfirmation process itself is simply another RFA for the sysop. It can brought about by one of the following conditions:


 * enough user support:
 * While a user is a sysop, anyone may add their support to the "Request for reconfirmation" section of that sysop's latest successful RFA. Short explanations are encouraged, but avoid personal attacks; consider simply giving links to evidence if necessary. This generally has no immediate effect and does not trigger the reconfirmation process until there is enough accumulated support for reconfirmation. The level of required support starts at the amount of support given for sysophood during the latest RFA (direct opposition to either is not counted), and this requirement gradually descends over time to a minimum of one user supporting after one year. Whenever this threshold is reached (as judged by a bureaucrat, not simple tallies), a bureaucrat will give notice to the sysop that they must be successfully reconfirmed within two weeks or lose their sysop status.


 * the sysop in question voluntarily choosing so
 * community consensus (such as a reconfirmation timeline for grandfathered sysops)


 * Word for word from GWW. I don't see any reason it should be changed. Karate Jesus (Talk | contribs) (→<font face="Arial" color="gray">14:02, 4 February 2009 - )
 * Ok, how is that different to what we have now? "Whenever this threshold is reached (as judged by a bureaucrat, not simple tallies)". - [[Image:Miserysig.PNG|117px]] (talk)  14:06, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * Because with this policy we at least have the right to bring it up. Our current policy doesn't allow us to do that. Because of the power void around bcrats here, there is very little else I could expect to get by with. Karate Jesus (Talk | contribs) (→<font face="Arial" color="gray">14:10, 4 February 2009 - )
 * I think it's different because it actually gives a way for users to easily show their support, for evaluating an admin (where as now we just bring it up on this talk page and very little discussion goes on). I believe what they do on GWW, is they create a new section on the Sysops RfA (called reconfirmation) where any user who wishes to reconfirm a user can sign, and if there's "overwhelming support" then a reconfirmation takes place (another RfA basically). Though personally I see very little difference between point 1 and 3... <font color="#4F94CD"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#9400D3">Sysop   14:12, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * I think the difference between 1 and 3 is to allow sysops who've lost their status as a sysop to re-gain it, but I could be wrong. Also, I think the reconfirmation RfA works just how a new one would. For, against, and neutral. Karate Jesus (Talk | contribs) (→<font face="Arial" color="gray">14:15, 4 February 2009 - )
 * The third point is for existing sysops to decide when one person is sufficient to request a reconfirmation for sysops that existed before the policy existed. An example of a reconfirmation can be found here and here. I'll point you to the fact that no action has been taken and there has been no further discussion. Exactly the same as when it was requested that Frv go through a reconfirmation. What you are asking for is EXACTLY the same as we have now, except it occurs on this talk page or on a bcrat's talk page. - [[Image:Miserysig.PNG|117px]] (talk)  14:21, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * Then I'll change it up. No reason in adding more policies that we wont follow lol. Karate Jesus (Talk | contribs) (→<font face="Arial" color="gray">14:23, 4 February 2009 - )

2nd suggestion for Reconfirmation policy
Reconfirmation is a process by which a sysop is reconfirmed in his or her role as sysop. If the reconfirmation fails, the person in question loses sysop status. The reconfirmation process itself is simply another RFA for the sysop.

While a user is a sysop, any PvX user may add a "Request for reconfirmation" section to that sysop's latest successful RfA, which can be found here. Short explanations are encouraged, but avoid personal attacks; consider simply giving links to evidence if necessary.

Reconfirmation can brought about by one of the following conditions:
 * PvX user support. Any PvX user may add a reconfirmation section to a current sysop's RfA.
 * A request for reconfirmation should be similar to a normal RfA with 3 sections: (1) Support, (2) Oppose, and (3) Neutral. Any vote considered to be a personal attack or any vote presented without evidence will be thrown out (deciding which votes will be cast out is left up to the bureaucrats). At any time during the process, the sysop whom is under scrutiny may ask for a vote to be reviewed on the project's discussion page. A bureaucrat must review all votes in question before this process can end.


 * After a period of two weeks if the sysop has received over a 50% majority of users who have voted against reconfirmation, a review process will begin. This review process will be handled by a council of at least 2 current sysops, 2 current bureaucrats, and 2 voting members (1 who opposed and 1 who confirmed). This council will decide as quickly and fairly as possible what actions should be taken against the sysop and whether or not the user should lose their sysop status.


 * A sysop voluntarily choosing to go through the process.
 * At least 2 of a sysop's peers (other sysops or bureaucrats) suggest that a sysop go through the process.
 * If a sysop volunteers to go through the review process or it is suggested that a sysop do so by at least 2 of his or her peers, then there is no need for the first stage of voting. Should this occur, a council will be formed of the 2 sysops who suggested the review and 2 bureaucrats to decide what actions should be taken.

Any sysop in question should be actively involved in the process, but should also avoid personal attacks. This process is meant to encourage accountability and improve the quality of the wiki. It is not intended to be aggressive towards the sysop personally.


 * What do you guys think? It might be too much. Karate Jesus (Talk | contribs) (→<font face="Arial" color="gray">15:04, 4 February 2009 - )


 * Looks good.The main issue is, We don't really have 2 BCrats >.>;. We have Auron and that's it (Hippo and GCard are server side and shouldn't be contacted over something like this, and DE's fairly inactive, so contacting him solely for this seems...can't think of the word). As such it might be worth saying 3 other Sysops and a(the?) Bcrat. <font color="#4F94CD"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#9400D3">Sysop   15:20, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * I think the idea of just using 1 bcrat gives Auron too much power. Imo, we need to nominate some new bcrats anyway. This would be a good way to kill two birds with 1 stone. Karate Jesus (Talk | contribs) (→<font face="Arial" color="gray">15:22, 4 February 2009 - )
 * The parts I disagree with are the council of six and the vote to have a discussion. Bureaucrats should retain the right of promotion/demotion. It's basically their only job. You may think that the whole system makes it "fairer", but truth be told a bcrat could RfA someone demoted by this the next day and just repromote them. The vote seems a little ridiculous. Perhaps a threshold of people who request a confirmation is more appropriate, but this could easily result in "Hey guys, I don't like X, help me force a reconfirmation". I still oppose the idea in general for reasons outlined in the wall of text above. As for new bureaucrats, I honestly cannot think of any active member of this site who would be appropriate. - [[Image:Miserysig.PNG|117px]] (talk)  15:45, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * Any suggestions on how to improve it then? And I feel that this policy idea does leave bcrats the responsibility to promote/demote admins. If it doesn't do that clearly, it should be written in more clearly. And I don't think anyone could just get a group together to put an admin through this process considering that the admin in question has the right to ask for any vote to be reviewed and each vote has to have evidence or it is disqualified (at the discretion of a bcrat). I honestly don't see how this policy could get a sysop demoted w/o a just cause considering all the fail-safes in it. Oh, and we need to find someone worth being a bcrat. We need more than 1. Karate Jesus (Talk | contribs) (→<font face="Arial" color="gray">15:51, 4 February 2009 - )
 * Simpler system (simple is good): Reconfirmation requested, bcrats say yay or nay. Vote begins. Bcrats decide outcome. All we really need to do is add a clear place where reconfirmation can be requested. You don't want a vote starting EVERY time ANYONE requests reconfirmation or every time some new guy comes along and gets banned they will be asking for a reconfirmation and everyone will have to vote within two weeks. - [[Image:Miserysig.PNG|117px]] (talk)  15:56, 4 February 2009 (EST)


 * Sorry, I don't think I addressed what you were actually saying. A threshold could cause people to just try to get admins thrown out, that's why I thought the 2 week period was a good idea and it has some built in fail-safes to keep people from trying to screw over any sysop. You're right about the fact that a bcrat could just demote a sysop, make a new RfA, and then promote them again. We need to put something in the policy that prevents that from happening. Karate Jesus (Talk | contribs) (→<font face="Arial" color="gray">16:00, 4 February 2009 - )
 * You're also right about the fact that every new guy could just start a new reconfirmation page. Maybe we should have a requirement of who can start reconfirmations. Maybe a length of time that they have been a member or something like that. Karate Jesus (Talk | contribs) (→<font face="Arial" color="gray">16:02, 4 February 2009 - )

(edit conflict) The process as outlined seems needlessly complicated. First off, you outline a rudimentary procedure by which Bureaucrats specifically decide to either retain or cast away each individual vote on the basis of two loosely defined criteria. What that essentially amounts to is what Bureaucrats already do on RfAs without the needless bureaucratic rigmarole. If the Bureaucrats so choose, they can cast away enough votes to create/destroy a majority, so there's no good reason as far as I can tell to "go through the motions," so to speak, rather than saying simply that the request for reconfirmation is handled in the same manner as an RfA. In regard to the "council," my first issue is that you say that it should include two regular editors, one who voted opposed, one who voted support, but you neglect to outline any process by which these two users are actually selected. Frankly, for essentially the same reasons that Misery lists above, I don't know why this "council" exists at all. Demotion/promotion is the specific reason for which Bureaucrats are created, and EVAL already states that they should act on the advice (and consent) of the sysops. By the time you realize that the Bureaucrats can exert de facto control over the council irregardless of any provisions made in the policy short of cutting them out altogether (and the initial vote for the aforementioned reasons)... well... the whole thing becomes a bureaucratic sham even worse than a simple RfA. I think Misery has the right idea; if support (don't bother with neutral or oppose) for an RfR reaches a certain absolute threshold, a second RfA takes place. Simple, clean cut. Sure, you can stack the RfR w/ friends, but you can't stack the RfA, so it's a moot point. *Defiant Elements*  +talk  16:05, 4 February 2009 (EST)


 * Truthfully the idea of having the 2 normal users on the council struck me as odd. While i agree with Misery on the point that BCrats get the final say, I obviously think current Sysops should get a chance to talk it through with the deciding Bcrat(s), as it's a decision that will largely affect them (of course normal users are affected as well, but not as much... I wish I was more articulate...It's always difficult putting thoughts into words without it sounding weird... ). The thought had crossed my mind that perhaps instead of an "RfA" as reconfirmation, that we just have a list of users signing (with links/reasons) saying they wish this Sysop to be reconfirmed instead. For instance, we could say after the first user propose reconfirmation, there's a set period of time, for users to support it. If a certain number of users support it (again, ideally with links and/or reasoning), then it goes to this council, where a decision is made. But like Misery said, such a system would be open to abuse...(But i guess if at the end of the day it's the BCrats decision anyway, it shouldn't matter too much...). Like i said before we only have 1 Bcrat (wiki side), which would make this system extremely difficult, for the reasons KJ said. If such a system were implemented, i'd want at least 1 more Bcrat (2 more would be better as there'd be a tie breaking vote or something like that...) <font color="#4F94CD"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#9400D3">Sysop   16:06, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * Ok, I get what you guys are saying now, but what are you suggesting should occur instead? An RfR with support only? Karate Jesus (Talk | contribs) (→<font face="Arial" color="gray">16:08, 4 February 2009 - )
 * Followed by a traditional RfA -- assuming you want a more in-depth vote before the decision goes to the Bureaucrats -- yes. [[Image:Defiant Elements Sig Test 2.JPG|50x19px]]  *Defiant Elements*   +talk  16:12, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * ^. So some user thinks that a sysop needs to be reconfirmed. He goes and request reconfirmation. It then needs a predetermined amount of users to support it, over a given time period (in your suggestion 2 weeks i believe). If after 2 weeks of the user requesting reconfirmation, there's enough support, then another RfA is created for the sysop, and then the rest continues as a normal RfA (with the exception being if it fails the Sysop loses their privileges, and if it succeeds they keep it). If after the 2 week period there's not enough support, the RfR just dies, and the sysop retains their powers. <font color="#4F94CD"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#9400D3">Sysop   16:16, 4 February 2009 (EST)

3rd suggestion for Reconfirmation policy
Reconfirmation is a process by which a sysop is reconfirmed in his or her role as sysop. If the reconfirmation fails, the person in question loses sysop status. The reconfirmation process itself is simply another RFA for the sysop.

Reconfirmation can brought about by one of the following conditions:
 * PvX user support. Any PvX user who is currently active and has been a member of PvXWiki for at least 3 months may start a Request for Reconfirmation (RfR). Short explanations are encouraged, but avoid personal attacks; consider simply giving links to evidence if necessary..
 * A request for reconfirmation should be similar to a normal RfA except with only 1 section: Support. Members who support the need for the reconfirmation of the sysop should sign the request. If after 2 weeks of the user requesting reconfirmation there's enough support, then another RfA is created for the sysop. If the RfR does not have adequate support after 2 weeks, the issue is considered over and the sysop keeps their privileges.


 * The new RfA will function exactly as a normal RfA. If it succeeds, the sysop keeps their privileges. If it fails, the sysop loses their privileges.


 * Bureaucrats hold the overall say in whether or not a RfR has received enough support to warrant a new RfA and whether or not a sysop should be demoted.


 * A sysop voluntarily choosing to go through the process.
 * At least 2 of a sysop's peers (other sysops or bureaucrats) suggest that a sysop go through the process.
 * If a sysop volunteers to go through the review process or it is suggested that a sysop do so by at least 2 of his or her peers, then there is no need for the first stage of getting signatures. In this case, a new RfA should be started with the same ramifications as mentioned earlier.

Any sysop in question should be actively involved in the process, but should also avoid personal attacks. This process is meant to encourage accountability and improve the quality of the wiki. It is not intended to be aggressive towards the sysop personally.


 * Ok, how about that? I think it incorporates all you guys have just said. The only problem I see with it is deciding what limit should be placed on the RfR to qualify a new RfA. We could just leave it to the bcrats to decide. What do you guys think? Karate Jesus (Talk | contribs) (→<font face="Arial" color="gray">16:29, 4 February 2009 - )
 * Just leaving it to the bcrats to decide sounds excellent to me. - [[Image:Miserysig.PNG|117px]] (talk)  16:33, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * Ok, I'm fine with that. Added it to the policy. Now the problem is that we need more bcrats. I agree with Phen that we need at least 1 more, if not 2. Karate Jesus (Talk | contribs) (→<font face="Arial" color="gray">16:36, 4 February 2009 - )
 * That is not a good idea tbh. Name me someone who would be a good bureaucrat out of the current sysop pool.  16:44, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * Lol, I can't. And that's a problem. But we can't just have 1 bcrat doing everything all the time. That's a little ridiculous. Karate Jesus (Talk | contribs) (→<font face="Arial" color="gray">16:45, 4 February 2009 - )
 * Well we don't really have any choices then do we.  16:47, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * Let's promote bad bcrats so that retarded decisions are made! :D - [[Image:Miserysig.PNG|117px]] (talk)  16:48, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * Exactly! But seriously, there has to be someone. Karate Jesus (Talk | contribs) (→<font face="Arial" color="gray">16:54, 4 February 2009 - )
 * Oh, and what's the next step for this to become part of the policy? Karate Jesus (Talk | contribs) (→<font face="Arial" color="gray">16:56, 4 February 2009 - )
 * Well the first thing is to wait a couple of days to see if anyone has any objections or concerns, then an admin will add it to the policy. Personally i'd wait until there's another BCrat first though... <font color="#4F94CD"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#9400D3">Sysop   17:01, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * Good idea. Can you think of anyone qualified though? Karate Jesus (Talk | contribs) (→<font face="Arial" color="gray">17:06, 4 February 2009 - )
 * Me :D (j/k) --217.44.68.161 17:18, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * -.- 17:55, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * I vote for the IP......Anyway, I'll look around and see who I can find, but I sincerely doubt half of the users want the suggestion coming from me. Maybe the admins should get together and talk about it. Karate Jesus (Talk | contribs) (→<font face="Arial" color="gray">18:23, 4 February 2009 - )
 * I talked with Frv about it, our conclusion was that no one was appropriate. - [[Image:Miserysig.PNG|117px]] (talk)  18:36, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * No offense Mis, but you and Frv are not the only admins and I think that someone on this wiki has to be qualified to do this. If I'm wrong and no one wants any more bcrats and just wants the system to stay the same, then I'll stop pursuing it. Karate Jesus (Talk | contribs) (→<font face="Arial" color="gray">18:39, 4 February 2009 - )
 * Let's make Jebus a Bcrat imo. 72.94.128.229 18:49, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * Yes, someone who isn't currently a sysop. >.> 18:51, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * I don't personally think Jebus would do a good job, but again I'm not the guy that should make this call (as half the people here hate my ass). I do agree that it should probably be someone who isn't a sysop only because I don't know of any sysops who could do a good job at it. Karate Jesus (Talk | contribs) (→<font face="Arial" color="gray">18:55, 4 February 2009 - )

What is the process for nominating a bcrat anyway? Do I just contact a current bcrat? Karate Jesus (Talk | contribs) (→<font face="Arial" color="gray">21:34, 4 February 2009 - )
 * Anyone know? [[Image:KJ Sig 3000.png]] (→<font face="Arial" color="gray">21:47, 4 February 2009 - )
 * There is no system, because it doesn't happen. GCardinal has to do it afaik, but I'm sure he would consult current bcrats. - [[Image:Miserysig.PNG|117px]] (talk)  03:14, 5 February 2009 (EST)
 * Like misery said, there's no system. I'd suggest finding someone who you'd think would make a good BCrat, and point them out to Auron, by e-mail, who would probably talk it over with GCard <font color="#4F94CD"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#9400D3">Sysop   03:57, 5 February 2009 (EST)
 * Ideally, it would be someone who didn't care too much, but just enough, has an I.Q. over 100 (although we might have to settle for >70), and doesn't pleasure themselves to their own pictures or ideas (read: no one currently in a position of power). I'd suggest Tycn or Wiz. ··· Danny   Does   Drugs  03:27, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Evaluation March/2010
Hi. I just want to start this off by reminding everyone that me asking for a review of our admins is in no way me undermining their authority. The policy also says that if a review is under way, it will be for the entire administrative team. Our current admins are: AthrunFeya, Bigtymerxg4, Frosty, Karate Jesus, Phenaxkian, Toraen, and technically Auron but he has special circumstances because he will be the reviewer. The policy states that some of the things we look for in admins are: "Are they policing the Wiki? Are they taking their own initiative and helping to develop the Wiki? Are they helping to shape site policy?" I will only speak for myself (although i know other members are also unhappy with our Sysop Team), in saying that many of our Admins seem to be bringing nothing to the wiki or the administrative team. The policy notes that doing nothing for the wiki is not acceptable, and that to me is the biggest problem with our current team. Too many cooks in the kitchen can sometimes create a mediocre meal. We don't need 7 admins to cover the activity that we currently have around here. Having admins strolling around waving banhammers usually (not always) causes more trouble then it does good. This is also the one-month mark for Lau, which is just a coincidence but further makes me want to have this review take place. I would like other users opinions (seriously, we really dont need people flaming me for bringing this up) on which (if any) admins need to be looked at. I'm not sure how this process usually goes (if its ever gone before), but i think this is the best way to do it. Lets get our communities response and then let the Bureaucrats decide what is best. The admins i have the most problem with are Big, KJ, and to an extent Lau. I do not feel as though Lau has done anything wrong, i simply feel as though she isn't bringing anything to the wiki at the moment, mostly due to the lack of activity around here. I have a problem with Big because not only does he not bring anything to the wiki, he subtracts from it. He uses the "admins are allowed to use discretion" bit to do anything he wants, which is absurdity. He was voting in by his circle jerk of friends (the forefront being Danny), and absolutely is the worst admin we've ever had. As for KJ, i feel as though he does not embody the administrative spirit at all. It's hard to explain, and at the moment i do not have examples, but he seems all too influenced by other users, and is hardly un-biased. I've written so much already that i feel i shouldn't have left this for last, but i'll probably be adding onto the KJ bit another time. I hope people will give this a read and give their opinions. I'm not trying to get personal or pick fights, but I honestly believe that things will be a hell of a lot better around here if we cleaned up the people that are here to clean us up. Gringo 02:17, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * We get it, you like drama and you don't like KJ, Lau, or Big. Unfortunately the rest of the community disagrees and recognizes you're a drama whore. On top of that Auron doesn't like you and recognizes you're a whiney bitch. So QQ somewhere else. Inb4 raginat me for pointing out your flaws. Bring the flamewar--TahiriVeila 02:23, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with him asking for a review. It's probably time we had one anyway. And, honestly, I'm not worried about my station at all. My contribs speak for themselves. <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">02:28, 9 March 2010
 * Tbh, you're fucking retarded for saying KJ doesn't do whatever the fuck you said he doesn't do. Second, i agree that big doesn't really do much on PvX, because he doesn't even come on pvx anymore. He's basically a banhammer i hit up when there's a random IP or something because he's always on MSN, so he is v important. Life   Guardian  02:29, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Just to add a few more things. While it is true that Aidan is a bit of a whiny bitch, every once in a while he's right. So, I would recommend emailing Auron and requesting the review. I would like to point out; however, that I think Lau has done a pretty spectacular job in her first month. She has aggressively pushed for the proper care of users and handled the skill update very well. <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">02:32, 9 March 2010
 * I don't see a problem with a review of all of the admins listed above, since they're all positive contributers to the community and (from what I have seen) have the full support of the community and would easily pass another RfA. The only reason they're listed here at all is that saint has an axe to grind and a new angle at drama :)--TahiriVeila 02:34, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * I really don't see the point in a review. Saint is blatantly targeting admins with whom he has had disagreements. Were this brought up by anyone respectable, I wouldn't raise issue, but given the number of issues Saint has blown out of proportion within the community before, I can hardly support the use of a part of a policy that, to the extent of my knowledge, has never been used prior. Seeing as a large portion of Saint's contributions are hardly positive, I see little ground for him to stand on in his request for action. ···  Danny So Cute    02:58, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I thought i made it very clear that i'm not targeting admins, im asking for a review of the entire staff. All i did was state my problems with which admins i currently have problems with, and then i asked the rest of people to give their input. I didn't ask people to debate whether or not my contributions are valuable, and i specifically asked for people to not flame me but instead give their inputs on admins. The first thing you and Jake did were come here and stir up drama by trying to pick a fight with me. All i want is peoples opinions on admins, if you won't give it then don't bother posting. This is evaluating administrators not evaluating saint. Gringo 03:09, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * To be fair, I think you and everyone else who knows you can see that you were specifically targeting certain admins and wouldn't have brought this up unless it provided more drama for you to whore. Now, that said, I'm still not opposed to the idea. Although, Auron has said numerous times that he reviews the admins on his own time and he lurks here quite often. <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">03:13, 9 March 2010
 * Summary of all off Saint's postings on this page. "I'm not attacking anyone. Big, KJ, and Lau suck at admin. I'm not targetting any admin in particular." Life   Guardian  03:13, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * And he complains about me being contradictory :< --TahiriVeila 03:15, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * so i don't have a right to say i have a problem with admins? all i did was state who i had problems with, i did not deny that the other admins might have problems, which is why i asked for other's opinions. Gringo 03:25, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * In all honesty, I wasn't flaming you. If I wanted to flame you, I'd flame you. I was stating my opinion of your usefulness and ability to judge in this context, just as you stated your opinion of certain admins. Your attempts to target certain admins are painfully clear to anyone with any experience on this site, and although my counter-argument might be viewed as ad hominem it's certainly not any less valid. There's a reason the U.S. prohibits convicts from voting, and that same reason is applicable here, in my opinion.
 * To address your claims against me, your very suggestion that admins should be reviewed is the cause for drama here. Attempting to pass the buck to me is a poor attempt at self-vindication at best. Requesting evaluations of administrators hardly means that you yourself are exempt from evaluation. In all honesty, I would rather you not reply to my comments. I'm writing here to address the community, not you or, at least, not you in particular.
 * If you'd like my opinion on the current admin team, I would say it is a bit large. However, each of the admins on the team is there for a reason, and each is a reason that I wholeheartedly support. In fact, two of the admins that you have, ironically, called out are admins whom I personally nominated for reasons not including my friendship with either.
 * I'd say more, but seeing how you responded to my last wall of text on your talk page, I don't feel anything further would benefit anyone, other than perhaps providing humor. ···  Danny So Cute    03:36, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Let me start with....Saint will not become an admin here. Ever. Auron always PMs me on MSN when he sees me doing something fucked up or otherwise detrimental to PvX. If there was a problem with the manner I handle my title as PvXwiki Administrator, I would have been demoted. Furthermore, my great decline in activity began way before you and I have even crossed paths, Aidan. But your childish bickering, name calling, and otherwise being a teenage female(in terms of behavior and actions, ofc), show that you're probably attempting some pathetic way of making PvX the way you want it. Again, this will not happen. Lau is an awesome administrator, as is KJ. I dropped off of contributing the second time my PC died and when I restarted school. When I came back, much to my dismay, contributors with your type of personality had taken over. Most of them have been chased off, but there remains a few. Also, (love you to death Frostels) but you haven't mentioned your butt buddy, have you? I don't think you make very good arguments. You make long, pointless walls of text that everyone will pick apart and dissect until your argument is nothing more than an angry little kid whose toy was taken away crying to mommy. -- <font color="#342EFF">Big <font color="#00008B">McStrongfist  03:17, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * This isn't here for me to be admin, i have zero idea why you are bringing that up, i assume it is you trying to discredit me. the page is here to review admins, not talk about me. I want to make this very, very clear: i am asking a review for the entire admin team, i then stated the admins in which i thought were the least qualified to be admin. I never said anything (afaik) about Lau being a bad admin, i said that she isn't very much needed. I don't care about an admins activity, i care about what they do while they are here. And fyi, saying "your childish namecalling" and then "youre a teenage girl" seems a tiny bit hypocritical. how is me asking for a review (that is LONG overdue) of the admin team crying to my mommy? you seem to be worried about your position, which is exactly why you just wrote a wall of text trying to defend yourself and discredit me. Gringo 03:25, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hardly a wall of text, but yes, you've managed to discredit yourself with all of your past actions. Look at your RfA. Look at 90% of your contributions. There's no need to argue back and forth with you. I'm not really worried. If I get demoted, I get demoted. If I stay an admin, I just will. I find it hilarious that you claim to not target anyone, yet you specifically named 3 of us. Also I said your behavior was that of a little girl. L2differentiate. -- <font color="#342EFF">Big <font color="#00008B">McStrongfist  03:31, March 9, 2010 (UTC)

I wish you could sage on pvx, so we could just ignore all of this and stop feeding saint's ego--TahiriVeila 03:28, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * no one is forcing you to post, please do ignore me, your posts on here aren't helping at all. i just want feeback on our admin staff, and youre attacking me instead. Gringo 03:31, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * If you actually cared about the way we spend our time here, then why did you bring up me? In the last two months, I've tagged more images and builds, moved more pages, deleted more pages, and generally done more of the general responsibilities than almost any other admin. Yet, for some reason, I'm on your "shit-list" and your buddy Frosty isn't (who has used his admin tools to clean up the wiki less than 1/2 of the time that most of us have in that same time period). I'm pretty sure we all know your real motives.
 * Yet, again, I'd like to say that regardless of Gringo's intentions, this isn't a terrible idea. <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">03:32, 9 March 2010
 * Just to point out, 2 out of the 3 things you just named can be done without administrative tools, and toraen, phen, and others do a lot of page deleting, i [personally] don't view things like that as a great use of admin tools (helpful, yes, but i look at interaction with users more then how many pages someone deletes). and as for you going on about Frosty not being on my shitlist, i have never once seen a misuse of power by Frosty, he is a consistent admin who is constantly making valuable and worthwhile contributions on builds and user talks, more in one week then big has ever had around here. Gringo 03:37, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Start moving pages if you care so damned much then, eh? ···  Danny So Cute    03:38, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
 * hardly relevant, i don't pride myself on being a good admin do i? stop attacking me, this is hardly about me its about the review... Gringo 03:39, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * UH OH I'M HIS NEW TARGET. Feel free to nitpick all you want. When I bother coming to PvX lately, I see things that bug me, and I fix them. I've YET to see something good come of you, other than starting huge flamewars. Like what's starting to happen now. -- <font color="#342EFF">Big <font color="#00008B">McStrongfist  03:42, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * So, if KJ is an exemplary user, would you mind expounding on your concerns with his position as admin? ···  Danny So Cute    03:41, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think that using this policy would be a bad idea, per se, but given it's lack of use since it was written, I hardly see any reason for it. Effectively, Saint's request would be tantamount to RfArb'ing every administrator on staff at GWW. ···  Danny So Cute    03:41, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
 * No it wouldnt. It would be tantamount to RFArbing 3 of them and saying you want an evaluation of all of them to give your RFArbing of the 3 credit. Life   Guardian  03:44, March 9, 2010 (UTC)

dramadramadrama let's repeat the same arguments over and over till we're screaming at each other. It makes saint happy. rarararar. I make only the most useful contributions--TahiriVeila 03:40, March 9, 2010 (UTC) Gringo, you are allowed to request a review. I would recommend emailing Auron, as DE rarely has the time or patience to do them anymore. <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate  <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">03:47, 9 March 2010
 * ^ at this point, Jake's right. All we're doing is feeding the drama. As a matter of fact, none of this matters. There are only 2 people who can review admins, and none of them are here. Gringo, if you'd like a review, contact Auron or DE. They are the only 2 guys who can do a review. <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">03:45, 9 March 2010
 * Also, this "While Bureaucrats are constantly monitoring the performance of the Administrative staff in order to ensure that things are running smoothly, periodically, at the discretion of the Bureaucratic staff, a more formal discussion of the Administrative staff may take place after the 1-month mark."
 * Don't forget Wizardboy. There's a very big reason he was given the position, if you don't recall. ···  Danny So Cute    03:48, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Good point. You may want to start with him, Gringo, since Auron hates you. <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">03:51, 9 March 2010
 * that's why i'm here KJ, im here to contact them. I was hoping, however, to get more opinions from others and let them read over it, but it's gone over like a bucket of shit in a fan, because instead of giving opinions on admins, people are just saying "wow fuck saint he just wants drama". jake seems to be only here to troll me, which is cool. and i honeslty dont think auron will take his personal feelings into account when it comes to judging our admins, he would be the very first person i would bring this to, because he knows the admins better then the other BC's. Gringo 03:52, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Uh, then why did you post this here (where you knew a shitstorm would ensue due to your pointing out of admins everyone knows you have personal problems with) instead of just contacting auron directly. Don't try to bullshit us, you're not a saint (i'm so good at puns). You posted this to get attention, not to reform the wiki, or you wouldn't have done this in the public, troll-baiting manner you did--TahiriVeila 03:55, March 9, 2010 (UTC)--TahiriVeila 03:55, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * I posted here to get other people's opinions, i expected more then your cute circle jerk to spend their monday night here trolling me, instead of giving opinions of admins on an evaluating administrator page. Gringo 03:59, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Haven't you ever heard of the phrase "silence implies consent"? Most reviews you'll ever read are negative due to the way people work. The happy majority keeps happily silent. ···  Danny So Cute    04:03, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
 * You're the only one who's ever shown even the slightest discontent with the admin staff(mostly b/c they don't deal with your bullshit), what kind of response did you expect? This is a rhetorical question, in case you didn't get that. Everyone knows you knew you were going to get negative responses. We just can't help but feed you the drama you crave for some reason.--TahiriVeila 04:10, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, users' opinions aren't "supposed" to count in a review. The admin's contributions are "supposed" to be the only thing taken into consideration. So..... <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">04:08, 9 March 2010
 * @jake why do you assume im the only one with a problem with the admin staff? all of what, 5 people have posted here, almost completely about me not about the admins. @kj ok then, i figured the bc's would rather have opinions (mostly because only 1/3 of them know ppl around here), but if not then we should stop posting and wait until auron decides if he will start a review process. Gringo 04:15, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * KJ's already stated that Auron evaluates admins on his own time. I wouldn't be surprised if he commented here, but I wouldn't hold my breath either. ···  Danny So Cute    04:18, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Posting to say I am aware of this discussion and disappointed that no one has accused me of power abuse. Big already knows that I think he is a terrible admin, but I still love him anyway. <font color="#A55858">Misery  08:17, March 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * My attitude to him is about the same. -- Chaos?  -- 08:55, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * You have to be posting to be noticed Miz---<font color="#0000ff"> X <font color="#696969"> TREME 11:16, March 9, 2010 (UTC)

PvXwiki:Evaluating Administrators/March2010 - Auron  09:11, March 9, 2010 (UTC)

Posting to say I am aware of this discussion, and now i'm going to go play Bad Company 2. Have fun with your evaluating stuff. --<font color="Black">Frosty  11:28, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * seems like the polite thing to do, so I'm just posting to say I'm also aware of this. <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  11:33, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * ^ same here and while I'd agree not all of the admin are ideal, I'm not sure following Saint's plea excess drama is really the right way of going about things. - <font color="SteelBlue">Athrun <font color="Black">Feya [[Image:Lau_bfly.gif]] - 11:45, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * At least the opening post was quite civil, I'll read through this wall of text when I get home. People had pretty cool reactions about it, though, and I do think that re-evaluating admins is the right thing to do. -- Chaos?  -- 12:10, March 9, 2010 (UTC)

Phenaxkian and maybe Frosty are the only admins who actually are good at being admins. The rest of you are corrupt, terrible and do shit all to help anything. I haven't read any of the above but admittedly saints post (which i havent read either, just seen theres drama) is probably something to do with the talk we had last night about how the admins are basically... useless. Most of them should be banned. None of them actually enfore policy cept phen, sometimes frost. No offence KJ, but you are especially useless. That pve admin (I don't even know their name shows how much they do) actually does nothing. 86.145.47.11 17:49, March 9, 2010 (UTC) abuses of our sysop tools. <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate  <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">17:54, 9 March 2010
 * To be honest, I don't think you've actually followed things. -- Chaos?  -- 17:53, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi, Rawr. You might want to check out this page. If you have specific concerns with me, or any other admin, feel free to link to examples of our "corrupt [and] terrible"
 * Chaos, i didnt read a single post before this one. I just figured this was the page it had to be said on, and I was talking to Saint just last night about how terrible i thought most the admins are so when he linked me I assumed :P @KJ - Ok, will do. It isn't a personal attack btw, I have no problem with you. Rawrawr Dinosaur 18:57, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's kind of the thing, I don't think you've seen enough to say some of these admins are useless. But, I'll just leave that and entitle you your opinion. If you cba, I'd suggest digging up terrible contributions and putting them on the project page. -- Chaos?  -- 19:01, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Chaos, I've been on this wiki pretty much since the beginning, I've seen enough to say some of these admins are useless. Rawrawr Dinosaur 19:19, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * I wasn't really trying to say you're wrong when I said you're entitled to your opinion. The phrase has a negative clang, though. -- Chaos?  -- 19:32, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * It was more aimed at 'I don't think you've seen enough to say' bit. The wiki has steadily degraded as all the old admins (who actually policy whored... well not whored, but a hell of alot more than now) left and got replaced. Rawrawr Dinosaur 19:36, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes. You did realize that I meant that you haven't been very active lately, and don't know our current admin team quite well enough to bash it, at least not in detail? -- Chaos?  -- 19:39, March 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Just a reminder, this page should be limited to discussing the process of evaluating admins. Obviously, rawr didn't know about the other page yet. That's why I linked it to him. However, if you guys want to continue this conversation, I recommend doing it on your talk pages. <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">19:45, 9 March 2010
 * why dose this feel like a witch hunt---<font color="#0000ff"> X <font color="#696969"> TREME 20:47, March 9, 2010 (UTC)

Review of Misery
Proposing review of Misery due to abrasive nature. <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  13:34, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Just a friendly piece of advice, if you are going to request a review of me as an administrator you will have a much higher chance of success if you directly link some examples of behaviour of mine which you have found inappropriate. The bureaucrats are busy people and don't want to have to troll through all of my contributions to find the ones that you found objectionable. A new misery  13:39, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I think it is not needed though. The ER Domination hero for example isn't something that belongs on the 2 mesmer hero midline. It just doesn't fit <font color="#ff0000">Shadow Shadow02122011.gif <font color="#008000">Christmas Signature 15:32, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Requesting a review will result in the entire administrative team being evaluated, as before. Just so you're aware. This isn't a policy for singling out an admin you have a disagreement with. --  Toraen   talk  16:52, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The only reason we did the whole team last time was because it had been so long since a review. If they only want Misery to be reviewed I'm fine with it just being Misery. That said, some links would be nice. <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  17:00, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Way to throw me under a bus Phenaxkian! A new misery  17:16, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I still disagree with chieftain that there should be any review. Misery is true about the fact the 1RV was not needed <font color="#ff0000">Shadow Shadow02122011.gif <font color="#008000">Christmas Signature 17:28, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Review isn't needed. Alex is taking policy personally (this isn't the first time it's happened). ApplesaucePancakes 17:43, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not outright saying a view is needed, but if a user has cause for concern then I can't ignore it. If Alex fails to provide any significant proof that Misery is abusing his administrative privileges, than I won't bother with a review, however if he finds something that's worrying than a review may be necessary.
 * If it's purely personal Misery shouldn't have anything to worry about. <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian  <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  18:54, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I actually feel abused by Misery. I respect that he had the balls to block me, but I don't like the way it went down. I was blocked for "vote balancing" and he mentioned that somewhere in the inner regions of my talkpage. I feel that he should have made a new item, like Torean always does, so that it would get my proper attention. If he just removed my vote, properly notified me and gave me a chance to defend myself, all of this wouldn't have been necessary. <font color="Black">Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 19:26, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Same deal with phen, he said jai had to cut something, I just added why I thought someone was annoying, and I got inmediately blocked. Fortunately enough, Silven Shadow got a block too <font color="#ff0000">Shadow Shadow02122011.gif <font color="#008000">Christmas Signature 19:30, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Please create a new topic if you want to rise issues relating to myself (especially being as that would have to go to Auron). <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  19:40, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Problem solved Phen <font color="#ff0000">Shadow Shadow02122011.gif <font color="#008000">Christmas Signature 20:01, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * @Vorpal:I'm honestly confused by this comment. Go look at your talk page again. It was a new section. You never acknowledged it and continued to comment in other sections. You are responsible for responding to comments on your talk page and I honestly don't know what I could have done aside from creating another new section as a second warning. That seems excessive considering the first new section was ignored. In the face of no response I have no other option but to use the administrative tools available to me. A new misery  22:06, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah I know I'm responsible for reading it, I saw the section but I didn't got the "I expect Vorpal to revert his vote." part in the wall of text. Give your signature some color bro! But don't overdo it, you don't wanna end up with a sig like Shadow. I still feel you overdid it a bit, I mean, can you really blame me for voting that? <font color="Black">Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 23:06, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * "Because I didn't read everything you said" is not a valid reason. <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  23:28, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Stop the drama. Kthnx. ApplesaucePancakes 19:45, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

I honestly believe that Misery's heart lies in good intentions. Although how this drama was started remains a mystery, what Misery has done is in line within the Admin policy. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]   20:19, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Misery enforced policy, people tried to go with the "pvx is dead, and so is policy" speech. Things got quite messy. In brighter news ER Domination got trashed. ApplesaucePancakes 20:29, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't get your hopes up, it's been thrashed before. It's a build that lives on the edge, manly. <font color="Black">Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 21:38, 5 December 2011 (UTC)