User talk:DefinitelyNotHanz/Any/R Augury Rock HM

Augury is one of the most farmed Zaishen Missions, last week it even had 2 american districts, so I guess it's not a bad idea to have a build for it here. --DefinitelyNotHanz (talk) 18:52, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
 * This is probably a topic better covered by a guide with per profession suggestions, since you really don't need to grab a specific secondary and PvE-only skills to beat the doppel quickly enough for the bonus. Speed optimization gets you minor bragging rights and not much else for this mission, since it's once per char per ZM rotation. I suppose we can keep a designated fastest Any/X build for anyone who really doesn't want to read a guide though. Toraen (talk) 10:48, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Problem is other professions' skills will be used by the doppelganger, adding a chance of failure. Instead how about adding a variant without an elite skill? That'd make it even easier to assemble the build. I tested it now only using Feral Aggression, Scavanger Strike, Ebon Support and "Finish Him!", managed to do it in 15 seconds and all of these skills are easy to obtain. Without "Finish Him!" it took ~17 seconds, so only 3 skills were used. As a bonus, lucking out on Sniper Support to deal max damage then following up with "Finish Him!" takes 2 seconds but that is unreliable. --DefinitelyNotHanz (talk) 11:17, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
 * There are several profession skills that the doppel can technically use, but gets no benefit from so there's no chance of failure. They're generally not as quick as using PvE only skills but it seems silly for PvX to say, "this is how you do it and we're offering no other suggestions for this really easy mission+bonus" when there's a lot of ways to safely do it. That's why I was saying there should be a guide too, somewhat like the guildwiki guide but more concise and up to date. Toraen (talk) 18:52, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I get that, but some professions might need entire builds or specific weapons to do them, not just 2-3 skills. For instance I don't think many people would unlock an elite skill just for this mission, so we should go for something that's easy to put together for everyone. I'm thinking Arcane Echo + Ebon Support + either Pain Inverter, "Finish Him!" or Empathy as a general build, and then list the pet one as the fastest method. But we could also just add a general build that works for all and then expand the guide to include profession specific builds later. --DefinitelyNotHanz (talk) 08:12, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Most people would have access to at least a helpful secondary if their primary doesn't offer anything useful (if you have mesmer you auto-win because Empathy is unlocked literally for having mesmer secondary). I was thinking the guide would just point out the most reliable skills/combos each profession could bring, noting that most would work from a secondary. Also, to be clear this build page would stay if we made the guide. PvX:WELL means the buildspace should have the best options and assumes all skills available, but build guides are meant to help players who don't yet have UAX or intimate knowledge of the game (basically guides aren't subject to the WELL policy). We'll just link the guide and build to each other when it's done. Toraen (talk) 10:23, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Sorry that was my bad, I tend to refer to build pages as guides too ^^ Didn't really have an intention to writing both a guide and a build page, the official wiki still has its own guide even if it could use some refinement, I'd like to focus on the builds themselves. I'll add some examples later today, tell me what you think of them. EDIT: or maybe tomorrow, will try to get a couple more characters there --DefinitelyNotHanz (talk) 15:27, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Could you try if the Doppelganger still uses Frenzy? I can't get him to activate it which might limit our options a lot. --DefinitelyNotHanz (talk) 08:40, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I'll have a few goes at the doppel with all my characters to see what I can find (I think Frenzied Defense is always used though, while Frenzy AI might be turned off in HM for the doppel). I mostly want a guide here since it's easy (in my experience) for guides on the other wikis to get bloated wrt skill selection and complicated setups. Toraen (talk) 09:10, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Just putting my two cents here, I find in both NM and HM, just use Empathy -> Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support -> Ebon Vanguard Sniper Support -> Signet of Infection -> Empathy. Dacookiemaster (talk) 22:51, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Convert to a guide page?
This page is about a specific Any/R pet build (although 40% of the usable skills are just general PvE skills) yet there's seven more completely unrelated builds on this page. We should either remove them (own pages) or convert this into a guide instead of a build page. Opinions? --Krschkr (talk) 12:55, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Yeah I was in the middle of searching for more builds and eventually converting it into a guide page but then took a break from GW. I think we should make 2 pages: one easily unlockable build that can be used by everyone (thinking about some form of Echo - EVAS or pet build), and a separate guide page that has a unique bar for each profession. --DefinitelyNotHanz (talk) 14:48, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Ok, but try to keep them simple with no or quick and easy to get PvE skills, like that:
 * Looking forward to see your finalized page. --Krschkr (talk) 14:54, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
 * How much would you focus on speed? Initially I wanted something that can do it in 10 seconds, but if we're doing all professions then I'm leaning towards 10-30 seconds, which would allow us to clear up the bars and remove most PvE-only skills. --DefinitelyNotHanz (talk) 13:57, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I'd say the guide should feature builds that work reliably without requiring much player skill or PvE skills which can't be obtained within few minutes. A skill like "Finish Him!" or sneak attack requires a bit too much preparation for this imo. A build which is just ursan blessing and nothing else is not worth featuring on this site. Probably hard to not get too cheesy in such a cheesy mission. --Krschkr (talk) 14:08, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I meant "speed" as in how long should it take to kill the Doppelganger at most?:P is 30 seconds fine as the upper limit for each bar? --DefinitelyNotHanz (talk) 14:41, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Need help with Monk build testing
I have an idea for a Monk build but I don't have a Monk nor a Necro at this mission atm. Not sure if this would work, but it sounds interesting: only have 2 skills on the bar, Pacifism and Dark Pact. The goal would be to remove the option for the Doppel to use weapons, forcing him to spam the only spammable skill on the bar: Dark Pact, sacrificing himself in the process. Only problem is, taking damage cancels Pacifism, and I'm not sure how this skill interacts with health sacrifice - does it cancel Pacifism or not? --DefinitelyNotHanz (talk) 16:27, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Odd one. While hexed with pacifism the foe did not use dark pact at all. So I dropped pacifism and went in with dark pact only. The doppelganger started attacking me but then started spamming dark pact, so I won with 4 out of 545 health points (@60+10+5+8 armor in my shield set, perhaps another 10 if the doppelganger deals slashing damage). Unreliable. So I added awaken the blood, remained in my shield set and did nothing. Doppelganger used the enchantment, then attacked two to five times and started spamming dark pact, resulting in his death. Still unreliably close if accounting that RNG may cause Doppelganger to use his auto attacks too often. Adding Masochism or replacing Awaken the Blood with Masochism doesn't really improve the results. When adding spirit bond or reversal of fortune or restful breeze to counter the initial attacks Doppelganger uses dark pact way later and more rarely, despite not using the prot skill himself (as you're passive). I don't really get how the AI uses this. I had the impression that Doppelganger's often afraid to use the final dark pact resulting in him killing me with his weapon attacks.


 * Despite all the AI oddities using dark pact and restful breeze only (resulting in many auto attacks and fewer uses of dark pact) seems to always work (at 550 health and 70 armor) despite dropping below 100 health points. I'd say: Let's try to find something else. This approach doesn't seem to work well enough. Perhaps if using the elite version of pacifism which I don't have. It's not inconceivable that the AI will react to it differently. --Krschkr (talk) 17:52, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Added Retribution on skill slot 2, but I don't think it really makes a difference. Usually deals 19 damage, so 16 smiting prayers isn't all too beneficial. When Doppelganger is about to die he'll start auto attacking until you drop below 100 health points, then kill himself with a last dark pact. Apparently the AI is very keen to kill someone below 100 HP and even considers suicide to reach that goal. Tested at 475 health and 70 armor without a shield set. But I also tested it without retribution with those stats and it worked just like before, although slightly more quickly. AS I dropped below 100 health points earlier. Hrmm. --Krschkr (talk) 18:06, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Yeah he doesn't seem too suicidal. Tried a similar concept on Ele now
 * First he wasn't even using skills then I managed to get him to use Burning Speed by going into melee, and below ~75% he started using Obsi Flesh so we just awkwardly stood next to each other for a while, then I think he ran out of energy because he stopped maintaining Burning Speed. I resigned after 2 mins :< I guess we'll have to stick to more conventional things then. --DefinitelyNotHanz (talk) 20:09, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
 * The dark pact thing works for me, I just don't think it works well enough for a guide page. I always use this build on ele (OgNDwJyfOf+wRzQUUO8G6w6B) but I don't know whether it's failsafe. I guess it is. Instruct people to use their enchantments before they go in, keep protective spirit up. Start combat with gale, then lightning surge, then just spam your ele skills on recharge. That way we get rid off the EotN PvE skills. Give it a try if you like the concept to see whether it may be suitable. --Krschkr (talk) 20:22, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Better than the current one that's for sure. Only changed Gale for the glyph, would rather not give it a 2nd CC and he can waste some extra time with casting the glyph. I'll update the derv soon, but it's probably going to be a temporary version as it's more nec than derv and even has EVAS. At least it's not as messy as the current one and I think derv is going to be the hardest to figure out, might leave the final version for last. --DefinitelyNotHanz (talk) 21:33, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
 * With gale's overcast gone you should probably pick chain lightning over lightning orb. I'll try some things for derv later. I recently ran myself to the outposts, so it's high time to play the desert missions. --Krschkr (talk) 22:57, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Perhaps all these builds already are a bit too sophisticated. I just did it on derv; 70 base armor + 10 from blessed + 14 from mysticism (you always get a permanent enchantment after all), 5 from spear and 8 from shield. Dervs are just damn tanks in PvE. Sufficiently so to go in with empathy only and survive with 250/605hp. Even without the shield set it worked out with 50/575hp. Guess that's a more suitable "build" than the current one with the order skills.^^ OgWiIwsMoBAAAAAAAAAA --Krschkr (talk) 23:24, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
 * ... and with insidious parasite I ended up with 100% hp without shield set. Did another test on monk (70 armor, 515hp) and that worked out aswell, although with like 10% health left. So I'd say: Just give every caster profession an Any/N build with insidious parasite? Could at least add an optional slot for the primary profession so one can add retribution, empathy or just a PvE skill to make things 100% safe. :s --Krschkr (talk) 23:33, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Included the general insidious parasite caster build and changed the assassin as suggested below. Feel free to revert, it's just a suggestion. If you like the idea of the general insidious parasite caster build, consider dropping the standalone elementalist, too. Armor of Earth for the optional skill slot should do the trick. So many edits, damn. I shouldn't have done this. :D --Krschkr (talk) 01:10, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Hmmm IP sounds good! How about this though: we post a regular Any/N build page for doing Augury in HM, and put a link to this guide page there in case someone wants a more profession specific thing? So we'd have 1 build for each profession here, primarily using their own skills, and the IP build would be "the main show" posted as a regular Running build? EDIT: here's the Necro page --DefinitelyNotHanz (talk) 06:28, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Hmmm IP sounds good! How about this though: we post a regular Any/N build page for doing Augury in HM, and put a link to this guide page there in case someone wants a more profession specific thing? So we'd have 1 build for each profession here, primarily using their own skills, and the IP build would be "the main show" posted as a regular Running build? EDIT: here's the Necro page --DefinitelyNotHanz (talk) 06:28, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Assassin Build rework
Alright, here's my suggestion:

Worked with dual minor runes (530hp) and dual superior runes (380hp). Equipment was a blessed armor with zealous daggers of defense. Any regular assassin equipment should do. How to: Use strength of honor on yourself when entering the mission. Use critical agility right before the cutscene. Skip the cutscene. Use your first 6 skills from left to right without hesitation. Doppelganger will fail knocking you down with his elite skill and get quarterknocked on caltrops. Then you just treat him with your daggers until he's dead, while he's casting strength of honor on himself. With this build we don't need sneak attack anymore, only critical agility: The easiest to obtain PvE skill. --Krschkr (talk) 23:59, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Found the ultimate cheese version
It's honestly one of the fastest methods for HM:

You cast Scourge Sacrifice on him, he attacks exactly once, then uses all 3 necro skills in a row and dies precisely 10 seconds in. Sadly it does need a Monk secondary, can't be done with Any/N. He can sacrifice himself from 50% Hp but not from ~25%, so Scourge Healing is a must.

No elite skill, no pet, no PvE skills, only 1 skill used and just once, excellent time, AND you don't even need attribute points (although put 1-2 into Smiting just to be sure).--DefinitelyNotHanz (talk) 19:48, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Damn. Good work figuring that combo out. I have to admit that I like that kind of cheese. --Krschkr (talk) 20:16, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Move?
Did you guys want this to be moved to a guide? It isn't really a Any/R build page right now. -Toraen (talk) 06:00, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Not sure what to do with it now. Seems kind of pointless now that we have an Any/N build that's cheap and effective. --DefinitelyNotHanz (talk) 07:46, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Do we even want to keep profession specific builds if a single prophecies spell does the job for any profession for both normal and hard mode? By now I actually feel like archiving this or moving it to someone's user pages. --Krschkr (talk) 14:11, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Keeping this would only make sense if these would be considerably faster, but even then we're basically talking a few seconds, so I don't see the point of keeping this around. May move it to my sandbox if there are no objections. --DefinitelyNotHanz (talk) 14:26, 4 June 2018 (UTC)