Archive talk:N/D Heir to the Master

Made by Dark Samus 05:30, 29 July 2007 (CEST) I had my name on this on the original wiki, but didnt put it again because i hadnt bothered making a PvX wiki account.
 * And thanks guys, thank you all for trying out my build and you're input, i really appreciate it, you all seem to like it pretty much. :) Dark Samus 05:30, 1 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Usually for this build, i use my PvE Necro, Dark Samus I V, just posting this to all those people who don't believe I made this. Dark Samus 20:03, 14 October 2007 (CEST)

Checked and Reviewed
For Viability. Readem (talk *pvxcontribs ) 16:26, 14 June 2007 (EDT)
 * works great in CM's especially with well of the profane subbes in to counter bonders. --Midnight08 04:48, 21 June 2007 (EDT)
 * Yeah been using it in CM's too. Plenty of corpses from players and NPCs, and it works great. --NYC Elite 05:40, 23 June 2007 (EDT)

I like it, just think its hard to keep 4 enchantments up doing combat. Gives you less time to animate minions and spam blood of the master.
 * hey just checking to see my build's rating, i made this. looks like ppl like it. btw i think having to maintain enchants is a small price to pay to be able to sacrifice to infinity and for virtually invincibility68.226.80.7 04:15, 15 July 2007 (CEST)

Does anyone know if heroes use this build effectively? (like maintain the enchantments in battle and such) Melvnatic 19:30, 30 June 2007 (CEST)

They won't use Mystic Regen, so it's a moot point. Readem (talk *pvxcontribs ) 19:34, 30 June 2007 (CEST)

This build is easily countered with Gaze of Contempt. --Arthas 21:50, 17 July 2007 (CEST) And so are most dervishs, your point? --Blue.rellik 09:41, 20 July 2007 (CEST)
 * No, because they can still swing their scythe and kill you. Tycn 05:35, 29 July 2007 (CEST)
 * I don't think that's a real counter, because u can easily re-apply these enchantments, so it will give a few seconds of vulnerability. Dark Morphon 11:17, 24 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Usually a few seconds is enough to take you out. And AoTL is easy to interrupt anyway. Tycn 05:35, 29 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Enchantment removal aside, you're still sacc'ing hp, and with halved health you essentially have Frenzy for Life Stealing. You'll likely have ~200hp or so after aura of the lich, and a rogue touch ranger or blood necro could take care of you easily. 65 (or more if they have awaken the blood) on a touch ranger would quickly dispose of you. after all, 10 pips of regen is your only source of healing. that's 20 health a second, whereas you'll have 65 health stolen a second. if you don't cast Blood the master in the time you're attacked, 4 touches will steal 260hp, and in that time you'll have healed for 80, leaving you with 20hp for the next touch to kill you. If you DO cast btm in that time, you'll likely be dead, in 4 seconds. while they'll be left free and clear with their likely 75% chance to block your minion's attacks. Even with 10 minions, you'll likely be dead. Also, +12 regen is the max healing you can attain. immunity to conditions is nice to prevent some degen, however, a curse/blood necro, or a mesmer can top that, killing you (again, twice as fast as your health is halved).
 * Two words, no shit. read the article before you start pointing out the flaws in the build. Danger from life stealing has already been stated and most ppl seem to think its worth the risk of being immune to conditions and sheer amounts of damage, which there is quite alot of in an AB. no build is indetructible, you seem to think that this one should be, every build has its weakenessed. Also being killed by a toucher is nothing special, lots of ppl are vunerable. Touch skills can onyl been blocked by one skill that no1 uses anyway and the life stealing goes str8 thru prot. I dont see why ur complaining so much about it. Dark Samus 05:27, 1 August 2007 (CEST)

Doesn't Blood of the Master only affect your own minions? I know this build would still be good, with semi-invincible fiends and horrors, but it if you can't heal others, the build should say so. EDIT: Nvm, been reading some stuff, apparently it's the skill description that should be updated. - Da Si

Masochism = win
[build prof=n/d deathm=12+1+3 soulre=10+1 earthp=8][aura of the lich][dark bond][infuse condition][masochism][mystic regeneration][blood of the master][animate bone fiend][animate bone horror][/build] An enchant mod makes things run a bit smoother here, but it's not really necessary. Kabu To 21:23, 8 September 2007 (CEST)
 * Better give some more points to earth (to have +3 regen on each enchantment).--Taan [[Image:Taan_signature.png|User:Taan]](T/C) 18:04, 9 September 2007 (CEST)
 * I think 12DM, 10 SR, 8 Earth... changing... [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] frvwfr2  (T/C/Sysop) 18:27, 9 September 2007 (CEST)
 * With five enchants, you end up at +10 regen either way. Lowering Earth Prayers to 3 allows you to hit the 4 energy breakpoint for Masochism, which makes BotM cost only 1 energy. Kabu To 07:53, 10 September 2007 (CEST)
 * But when you will have degen, it would be better have still 10 regen. I havent problems with energy with frvwfr2's attributes. But its only my subjective opinion. --Taan [[Image:Taan_signature.png|User:Taan]](T/C) 15:13, 10 September 2007 (CEST)
 * Why dont you guys just have 2 superiors? Sup SR and Sup Death, that way you have less health which makes you stronger and you get +4 energy from masochism and 3 regen from mystic. Dark Samus 16:31, 8 October 2007 (CEST)
 * You don't have prot spirit - I tried running something like this with all sups before I saw it on the wiki, and one vamp gaze killed me. You don't take less damage because you have less health in this build. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 17:01, 8 October 2007 (CEST)
 * Please become familiar with the terms before posting. Vampiric Gaze does not inflict damage, it is a life-stealing skill which ignores ALL forms of protection, damage reduction, etc. The only way to stop a life steal, it stop the spell itself via preventing spell target or interrupting the skill. Once a life-stealing skill is cast, its GUARANTEED to steal the stated amount of health. The reason this build is vunerable to it is because it has low health and depends heavily on its protection, life-stealing ignores it. Dark Samus 20:02, 14 October 2007 (CEST)
 * Nonetheless... you don't have prot spirit. Lower health means you're quicker to kill. --Mala[[Image:Mala_sig_Mind_Blast.jpg|19px]] 00:56, 15 October 2007 (CEST)
 * I think I know what I'm talking about, Dark Samus. The "damage" and "vamp gaze" comments were unrelated. Less health =\= less damage. If you had actually read what I wrote after the word "damage", you would see that I said You don't take less damage because you have less health in this build.
 * Would you like a mathematical model of the build under attack, comparing having high health and having low health? I can do that. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 06:21, 15 October 2007 (CEST)
 * The reason for having such low health, is not to lower damage, but lower your sacrifice. AotL reduces sacs to 1/4 of normal amount. 1/2 because you have 1/2 your normal health and to 1/4 because of its effect. It doesnt specifically say so, but its true. Also prot spirit wont be very useful in this build. All damage, including armor-ignoring, is being reduced by 87.5%. I usually have around 200 health when using this build. Prot spirit is 10% of max, so approx 20 health. The only way prot spirit would add ANY extra effect is if someone had a way of dealing +160 damage in one piece (100%-87.5%=12.5%, 20/.125= 160) which isnt seen in an AB. So damage isnt a problem. There are 3 ways to kill you (when running at full power, have minions, all enchants up). One, is stupid amounts of degeneration via hexes (conditons are diverted because of infuse cond.), more than -12. Even then, your degen would be minimal. You would only experience severe degeneration if someone put -22 health degen on you solely through hexes, and that generally doesnt happen, so this isnt a problem. The second way is through health loss, it ignores your protection. The only two skills that inflict health loss, are Spoil Victor and Enfeebling Touch. Nobody uses Enfeebling Touch anyway, and in order to be affected by SV, you personally have to attack someone. Since your an MM, u dont attack anyone, and also your low health protects you from that anyway. the last way you can get killed is by Life stealing, also protection ignoring. This is your biggest threat. Not many blood necros are seen in AB but even if there is one, a blood necro cant kill too fast anyway and your armor should take care of him or her, theyre not too durable. But Touch Rangers, are the bane of your existence. They have lots of blocking which counters your minion army, moderate armor, speed buffs, and repetitive high-speed life stealing which can kill you. They are your only real threat. In anycase, touchers are a threat to anyone, the only way to counter them is "cant touch this" which i have NEVER seen anybody use. Those three sources of losing health ignore prot spirit as well so thats not going to help you. Also, for some odd reason, not many people bring enchant stripping into AB's anyway so thats not a huge threat either, just avoid the mes shrine :). Interruption can be a problem too, but only when ur redoing enchants. Just try not to recast your enchants while under fire, do them before a fight. Finally, the last way you can get killed, is if you do not have minions to take damage for you. In that case your useless, but thats really no different from any other MM. Even when u are minionless, your still a little more durable because of your high regen and damage reduction. Summary: Two main ways you can get killed are, Touch Rangers (avoid them like the plague) and being Minionless (try to join a team with an assassin or two, they can kill fast which means corpses for you, and they get killed fast which means even more corpses for you :P) Dark Samus 00:00, 18 October 2007 (CEST)
 * First few lines of wall of text tell me I don't need to keep reading. No one cares how much max health you have when you're dead, which is rather easy to do from a turtle or a mob or a whatever, since your health is so low. Yes, you take half damage, but YOU DON'T HAVE PROT SPIRIT. Less health means you die faster. Less health does not mean you die less fast because you take less damage - you still take the same amount of damage from one attack, regardless of your health. Swords don't magically do less damage because you lowered your health with this build. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 05:59, 18 October 2007 (CEST)
 * Well then, i suggest you back and READ. You know what READING is? I did not say the low health is to prevent damage, maybe you should try READING like the rest of us. I CLEARLY explain why protective spirit will not help you in this build. And by the way, you take half damage, but have half health so the percent amount of health you lose does not change. BUT, you heal at the same rate as you would with high health. It is what makes the 55 effective, Damage reduction, coupled with high health regeneration, the basic concept is the same, but gone about in different ways. A final note, READ. Dark Samus 20:50, 18 October 2007 (CEST)
 * But it's essentially not damage reduction. You need as high health as possible for this build to be at maximum efficiency, just like any other caster. And why would I read a huge wall of text when the first few lines tell me not to waste my time...? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 22:12, 18 October 2007 (CEST)
 * Actually yes, it is damage reduction, for you anyway. And the first few lines do not indicate its a waste of time. It explains there is a reason for having low health. Dark Samus 05:24, 21 October 2007 (CEST)

PVE Variant
Already tried to make a seperate build out of it in case anyone tells me to, and it got deleted because it's too similar to this. So I'm submitting this for use in PVE to add as a variant.

[build prof=necro/derv deathm=12+1+3 soulre=9 bloodm=5 earthp=8][animate flesh golem][optional][optional][infuse condition][dark bond][mystic regeneration][blood of the master][Sunspear Rebirth Signet][/build]

Optional slots being for Minion raising spells of the MMs choice. Unreal Havoc 00:24, 28 October 2007 (CEST)

That is not a variant, it's a completely different concept. That is closer to just a normal MM. Lord Belar 00:27, 28 October 2007 (CEST)


 * Now you know why I was pissed at it being deleted because it's appaerntly the same to this. Unreal Havoc 00:28, 28 October 2007 (CEST)


 * It is too close to an existing build, just not this one. One sec, I'll go find it. Lord Belar 00:29, 28 October 2007 (CEST)
 * I'd appreciate it, maybe if Rapta actually did that in the first place then this could have all been cleared up before and none of this fiasco would have been nessacary. Unreal Havoc 00:31, 28 October 2007 (CEST)
 * This. It's just a variant that uses Myst regen. Lord Belar 00:37, 28 October 2007 (CEST)

Doesn't use Signet of Lost Souls, doesn't use Taste of Death, has a good self heal that doesn't greatly sacrifce Minions health and allows for spamming of Blood of the Master, this is superior to that for General PVE and is why I posted it. Unreal Havoc 00:41, 28 October 2007 (CEST)
 * Precisely. Yours is a variant, it differs by two skills. Also, not using SoLS is not something to advertise. Lord Belar 00:47, 28 October 2007 (CEST)

You have a Soul Reaping of 9! In general PVE you shouldn't need SoLS! Especially with this, I have had no energy problems using this so far, none. Those two skills make a BIG difference! Unreal Havoc 00:57, 28 October 2007 (CEST)


 * You have 1/4 of the bar different from the N/any MM. Look at the variants already there, they also have two skills different. What makes yours so special that it needs its own page? Lord Belar 01:02, 28 October 2007 (CEST)

Better survivability without having to sacrifice the health of minions in quick -health spike bursts, better at countering Health Degeneration. This is all as variants but have not been put together as a solid build for General PVE usage, and as already said, should be. Sure your minions may be taking your damage for you but this is countered by Blood of the Master which is recountered by Mystic Regeneration. This is a build, variant or not, that works and works very well, and needs attention rather than just adding Mystic Regenration as a variant. It's ok saying heres some random skills that necs can use, feel free to throw together what you want out of it, but I'm trying to get a build up thats complete and already works better than the original posted. Unreal Havoc 01:10, 28 October 2007 (CEST)

Overhaul-ish
Edit summary should have been "This is AB and CM, not general PvE" instead of "undo revision...". -- Armond Warblade 03:19, 29 November 2007 (CET)

compared to restful breeze and flesh golem?
flesh golem is way more damage - this one is almost invincible but can't kill anything. i've ran both and prefer the flesh golem and restful breeze, personally. u only need 3 into healing magic to get 10 seconds off it too just to note. Brian 07:41, 8 December 2007 (CET)

plus you don't need all those weird encahntments to get the mystic regen up to max (which is what 14? i forgot), like masochism - deathly swarm is good - it does like 110 dmg if your death is at 14. this build is more than you need in 95% of the cases you face in AB - might as well cut down on defense and put some into offense. it's a good thought - making a MM mystic regen tank was a good try, but now that it's been done, ... it's like, you just got to balance offense and defense just like with the earth ele tanks. Brian 07:44, 8 December 2007 (CET)


 * Erm, no. It's a tank for a reason - because the other guys like killing MMs. Fleshie is ok in PvP, but honestly, your ten minions should be killing things just fine. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 11:04, 8 December 2007 (CET)


 * restful breeze is stupid on a MM. You need to be constantly casting botm or else your shit will die FAST. --Thc 20:01, 25 June 2008 (EDT)

Heros re look
Hi i read this build cannot be used by heros, fair enough but is there some mod that can be made so that it can be used by heros and can you point me in the direction or plainly upload here a good build to go with this build [MM]

Regen Nerf
Does that make this phail? --69.133.105.149 17:32, 18 February 2008 (EST)
 * Not really. You're still vulnerable to hex degen, and condition pressure is still shrugged off. The three regen you lost isn't huge, though - once someone puts -5 or -8 degen on you you're screwed either way. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 20:27, 18 February 2008 (EST)

Regen Nerf...Again
Ow. now only 13 (15 with enchanting) secs of mystic regen and 12 sec recharge. Justing6 07:45, 7 March 2008 (EST)
 * It can still work, but those last couple nerfs do hurt the build; as long as you had all your enchantments up, and at least one minion, damage would barely affect you. But now, one hex will ruin your regen, and then all that little damage will add up into killing you. Maybe we need a damage reduction enchantment now. Also, if you wanna help your own team a little more, you could throw on the newly buffed Foul Feast. -Mike 08:18, 7 March 2008 (EST)
 * Nerf didn't hurt it too much. Been running it in AB for several matches and its doing fine.  Switched to 20% enchant for regen.  Only bumped into one hex degen but wasn't under any pressure otherwise so it was fine.  Just keep an eye on your enchants. Socnicklin 15:46, 14 March 2008 (EDT)

20/20 Wand?
Although a 20/20 off-hand can easily be found at some collectors in Factions and Nightfall, a review of the collector database for death magic wands shows the best wand is a 20/+5e wand, but no 20/20 (in any of the campaigns). That includes the post-campaign and other "green" collector wands. Also, do wand and offhand Skill and Casting time recharge percentages add together during casting events...so does having a 20% half time skill recharge on a wand AND an offhand item result in two 20% chances after a skill use? ...or is it ignored if it is redundant?

I was thinking though it may be possible to upgrade some collector wands, but my experience with collector items has been they can only be upgraded in a limited way, and often can not be upgraded at all. Collector staffs for example I sometimes can add staff wrappings or staff heads to, but they won't accept the later upgrade items like inscriptions and such. Is that how it is done, through an inscription upgrade? If so, how is it added to the base collector wand? Does the wand have to come from nightfall or later collectors in that case? -- April 8, 2008
 * Prophecies collector wands are old school and can only have the one mod they come with. I think there may be some 20/20 collector wands somewhere but generally I just buy them from the guy at Leviathan Pits (or whatever the kurzick one is). If you only have prophecies, I doubt you'll have any luck getting 20/20 wands tbh.
 * Yes, 20/20 weapons and offhands stack... else why would people run with 40/40 sets. The actual percentages are like 32% for half cast and 4% for quarter cast time. I'm not sure how it works with recharge but I know you can't get quarter recharge to trigger. -- Mala [[Image:MalasigMagebane_Shot.jpg]] 17:57, 8 April 2008 (EDT)


 * It works by having a PvP character and/or not sucking badly enough that you can't afford to buy a PvE 40/40 set. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 20:14, 20 October 2008 (EDT)

Searing Flames?
Ok, I know it doesn't make a HUGE difference, but in the notes it says that this build can survive two searing flame elementalists. Seeing as SF requires the foe to be on fire to do damage, and this MM can't catch on fire, shouldn't you be able to cast a million SF's on it without even doing a single damage? Assuming the minions last being burned a million times =p --Rach 18:40, 24 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Well can you heal minions?-- Shadow [[Image:Relyk Sig.gif]] 21:26, 4 October 2008 (EDT)
 * The last line of my comment was a joke, the fact is that Searing Flame's would not be able to kill this necro. --Rach 19:40, 20 October 2008 (EDT)

ARCHIVE
the new update has turned aura of lich into a mass bone horror making machine removing the need for other minion summons unless its in cooldown

Agreed for archive. 70.134.78.105 22:35, 11 December 2008 (EST)

'Tis a shame, I liked this one.--67.70.92.94 22:19, 12 December 2008 (EST)

TEHY RUINED TEH SKILL ANET F U WITH UR SF NERF AND AURA NERF THIS GAME SUCKS NOW U NERFED EVERYTHING U AND UR STUPID FUCKIGN NERFS FUCKING GAME I CNAT EVEN STAND PLAYING IT ANYMORE EVERY DAY NERFES.IM GOING BACK TO AOC thee only game that doesent have nerfs every day