Build talk:Team - 7 Hero Offensive Mesmerway

Merge Proposal
Everyone would agree that BiP Melee Support, BiP Caster Support, and Triple Energy Surge are all remarkably similar. However, propositions to delete/archive one in favor of the other will almost certainly create more drama than it's worth. So here's an idea -- condense the major elements of all three pages into one neutral page with a neutral name. The differences between the pages are subjective after all -- the N/Mo is good in some areas, the N/Rt is good in other. I hope that the setup as presented here will be agreeable to all sides of the discussion.

I am going to leave this in my user page for now because I don't want to push this merge proposal if others disagree. However, feel free to edit it at will. If there is an important element to any of the three pages that I left out, please add it. Furthermore, there could be expansion on the "Notes" section to explain the advantages/disadvantages between the different setups for the third backline character. Alternatively, this could go in the "Variable Hero" section.--Xanshiz (talk) 07:57, 2 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Sure, I don't mind having 1 page with all the relevant info. Your explanation for prot vs 2nd healer is good (and correct). A few points that I don't agree with
 * Double sup + staff on mesmers, staff on bip, staff on sos. I think all options should be listed as equal under that specific build's equipment explanation, with a good explanation of the difference between the setups.
 * Recommending Midline heroes on fight. I have tested this out myself and I'm really not a fan of doing so. Heroes seem to put themselves in dangerous situations more often, resulting in more deaths. The only improvement Ive seen when using Fight, is when you flag heroes on a spot to defend, or to react to enemies spawning (example: when farming A Chance Encounter).
 * The note on which heroes to replace can use some improvement. This isnt super relevant for the team itself tho.


 * A few things you have missed that I would also like to see added:
 * The Inept mesmer as a variant for one of the ESurge mesmers. We all know that ESurge deals more damage and caster control is preferable (and just faster in general), but areas with dangerous melees are safer with the Inept. I think it provides players with an overal slower, but safer team. Losing the 3rd dom only really matters (in terms of safety) in areas with a lot of dangerous casters.
 * The "use the best vigor you can afford". Perhaps we should make a section on this page like "gearing on a budget". I'm quite active on the general GW discord, and lately I see a lot of people struggling with gearing their heroes. I think new players can benefit heavily from some sort of gear priority chart. A lot of people seem to think that having +3 dom and sup vigors are absolutely necessary for the team to work, while the team still works when you opt for a major dom + minor vigor cause you are poor (just and example). I was already planning on doing this for the bip melee/caster pages.
 * Some more variant skills, for example Panic, HES, Putrid explosion etc
 * Maybe a minionless variant (for areas without minions or for people that dislike it?). Slotting 2 IMS skills will be difficult for the melee setups (it gets difficult to slot an SoH if you don't have Zei Ri), but for casters its pretty easy (Fall back on Rit). I was already planning on doing this for the bip melee/caster pages.
 * Thats all I have to say for now. Good job overall, you put in way more work than Id be willing to do. Hope we can succeed with this ZStepmother (talk) 09:59, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
 * One more thing. Since this is "Offensive mesmerway", which pages would be te "balanced" and the "defensive"? Why don't we just call this page "Mesmerway", because the only real changes I would think of (to create a balanced/defensive setup), would be adding Panic (and perhaps swapping an ESurge for inept/dropping the MM for a BSurge). ZStepmother (talk) 10:06, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
 * If this is going to be a catch-all page, then the preferred general builds need to be mainbarred, aka the resto builds. The protection ones are viable, if not stronger, but only if the player is advanced enough to take advantage of strong prots aka cornerblocking/bodyblocking and tanking. However, this is not the case for most players imo. This new proposed page will be linked to be everyone in the guildwars community, as the bip pages currently are. Players who know what they are doing will know to look at the variant builds. Everyone else will simply copy and paste the mainbar. This is why Resto needs to be mainbar, and the prots as a variant below them:


 * The problem is that the presumption that the resto builds are the "preferred general builds" is not unanimous, so listing them as primary would defeat the purpose of having a neutral page. Furthermore, the budget SoS is not necessarily the be-all and end-all solution due to it's awkward 4-way attribute spread and inability to rune either of it's power attributes. Nonetheless, the budget SoS is the best we can do given the current hero limitations. But until there is a clear consensus, I think the most appropriate solution is to list both setups along with a simple and concise description outlining why one may be preferred over the other.
 * To Stepmother's points -- many of them have been added to the page or a consensus has been reached. Let me know if anything else still lingers, but these are the points I think still warrant further conversation:
 * Skill 8 on the ST. Right now, TES has FoMF on the ST, but I had to replace it with SoH in order to make the two builds compatible (melee). However, I don't think change makes the the TES version any worse, as it means you get more attributes in protection prayers/an additional protection prayers spell. Furthermore, having a 4 second res on the ST has always been controversial in the first place. For the caster variant, remove hex is definitely a filler skill that could be reconsidered. One issue is that it means that the N/Mo setup has 5 hex removals, which is almost certainly overkill.
 * Expand the Notes section -- right now, the description for which heroes to replace for NF missions/quests is somewhat confusing. I would just say drop the N/P, but you lose dual IMS which hurts a lot. Furthermore, a more detailed rundown of resto versus prot could be put in the Notes section.
 * A Guide: "Gearing on a Budget" that could be linked to in all 7 hero comps. This could explain that major/minor vigor/dom runes are acceptable if one cannot afford superiors; radiant/survivors are a fine compromise if prodigy's are too expensive; weapons are more important on the mesmers than the /rt healers with PwK; attribute runes on the ST are more important than miscellaneous runes/insignias; importance of breakpoints when heroes aren't fully runed (i.e. 13 blood, 12 spawning, 13 fast casting, meaning you should adjust attributes if the runes aren't the same as what's on the page). This could be very useful.
 * Name -- I think this is a fine generic name that follows a naming scheme that was proposed earlier. Nonetheless, I am not attached to it at all. A generic "7 Hero Mesmerway" is probably not descriptive enough considering the plethora of other mesmerways that already exist.
 * Should an inept be listed on this page as a variant? It seems silly to submit an entirely different page with a 2x Esurge + inept or Panic + Esurge + Inept midline, everything else the same.
 * --Xanshiz (talk) 00:26, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter if you think its unanimous. Resto is the preferred general build. Maybe not for you personally, or Krschkr, but For the majority of players, in the majority of scenarios, dual resto is pretty much default. Its the one that is shared far and wide. I have never seen anyone link to TES. Every link I see is for 7 hero bip support. On reddit, LGiT ally chat, or Kamadan, its 7 hero BiP support. Now, are those places great sources for the best of the best build? No, but I use them as an example. Dual resto is simple the preferred general meta build. The general community sees prot as a variant. That is because it is a variant. I can see why you don't want prot listed as a variant; as with the correct player skill it can shine as the stronger, superior option. However, that is up to player skill. That is a problem. Player skill is unreliable from one person to the next. If you're a simple c-spacer who doesn't micro heros outside of maybe casting SoH on yourself when you zone in, I highly doubt prot will show itself superior in the majority of situations; and that's because it won't. I use the simple c-spacer example because that is where the general population sits, unfortunately. Most players log in and just do content, and are content to not get "better." Things like pre-casting spirits, flagging & spreading out heroes, microing, and cornerblocking are great techniques, but good player skill can't be a pre-requisite for a general build such as this. This is where a variant comes in for the rest of us.


 * I'll let others make a record for themselves on this thread, but several others here and on discord agree that there should be some degree of preference for the resto builds, even it just means you list them on top of the prot builds. If you give a list of "here are my top 7 ways to do xyz", why wouldn't you name your best option as #1? Of course you would. And people would expect you to. And so we should. I think this works as a compromise:
 * 1) Resto is front and center for majority of population. Most universal general build is the first thing seen, and most commonly used. Adds familiarity.
 * 2) Keeps Prot equal with Resto in terms of presentation. They're both treated as equal options. I actually think now that this serves an important function of bringing prot more to the forefront, and educating people about it as an option. I love the variable hero section you made which neatly shows all options and descriptions. It encourages players to give prot a go and to try and be a better player. If prot as an option is treated equally, its less likely to be disregarded by someone looking to just find the "best" quick team comp (as variant options sometimes are), and encourages them to slow down a second and read.


 * To be clear, I'm spending the time to outline why I feel such a "small" change is this important, and it's because 7 Hero BiP Support (which should be the new name btw. Keep it simple. Why change it? It's not even TES anymore if there's an ineptitude variant) is most likely the most commonly linked build(s, melee and caster pages) in the community as a whole. I mean, that's why we're trying to figure out this merge, right?


 * Other points:
 * Remove hex is overkill with 5 hexes, but thats only if you run N/Mo Prot. I would Weaken Armor on the ST; it helps it gain agro. You could also keep remove hex and put weaken armor on the N/Mo prot over reverse hex...meh. You could also take Shield Guardian over reverse hex for the AoE healing which also affects minions. Downside is that reverse hex is really strong. You could also put a 4th spirit on the ST, like shadowsong or earthbind. Or keep 5 hex removal skills. Again, the "issue" exists only if you take the N/Mo.


 * Lastly, I agree Inept should be listed as a variant. --Willarddog (talk) 15:49, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Alternatively, in the name of compromise, why not just name it BiP Mesmerway? --Willarddog (talk) 19:09, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Some further points:
 * Back to the remove hex, and having 'too many' hex removal skills on the team: I would just keep Remove Hex on the ST, as it requires no attribute investment, has shortest cooldown, and doesn't require having the ST to get close enough to enemies to cast. Then, I would include variant options over Reverse Hex on the N/Mo if the user feels they don't need as much hex removal, primarily Weaken armor for more offensive power or Shield Guardian as another defensive option. This way you're not messing with the ST bar. We already have a different caster bar for 1 skill difference on ST, we don't need "if you take this variable hero bar, change these skills on these other heros."
 * I also propose having split bars for the MM on the team composition summary. Putrid Bile + Putrid Explosion for Melee, and Putrid Bile + Blood of the Master for caster teams.
 * Putrid Explosion is just too good for melee players to not be mainbarred, but the skill is lackluster for casters due to how the hero uses it. Putrid Bile is useful in all situations, in addition to giving an extra hex for unnatural signet. However, I don't think BotM needs to be mainbarred for melee players, but as kept only as a variant. Minions already receive healing from Incoming/FB!, Blood Bond, and Life, as well as receiving protection from ST spirits. Melee players draw a good bit of agro to themselves, and indirectly protect minions in this way, meaning they are less likely need to be topped off mid-fight or after fights with BotM. On the flip side, for full caster teams, bone fiends are more open to being affected by AoE spells enemies target the team with.
 * Lastly, what about adding Weaken Armor as a variant to the budget SoS? I've found AR to be lacking on occasion. Even bloodsong can work better sometimes. -- Willarddog (talk) 16:37, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The problem with "BiP mesmerway" is there are around 10 other team builds on PvX than run BiP along with a mesmer midline. That said, I am not attached at all to the current name. I am only listing it because this naming scheme was suggested a while back.
 * The putrid explosion versus bile change would need to be tested to see if there is any measurable difference.
 * Ancestor's rage is great with a melee, and tt's a short cast time. The hero might cast weaken armor in lieu of healing, creating problems. --Xanshiz (talk) 00:40, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

N/Mo
I switched Aegis for Mend Condition on the Caster N/Mo Prot. I think at least that much is agreed upon. This more or less significantly boosts the hero's ability to respond to degen pressure, which is partly made up of conditions. I think that keeping Reverse Hex is also for the best, as hexes make up the other half of mass degen pressure of which N/Mo is thought to be weak against. Lastly, while the elite could potentially be changed for something else, I don't think its necessary. If a player has the mindset to change out the elite to cater to a specific area, then they likely have the smarts to check out the main page and look at the variants themselves. Regardless, Aura of Faith should stay mainbar as it best fits the purpose laid our for N/Mo on this page:

"Protection prayers is preferred in scenarios in which the player is expected to tank a large share of the damage. This is often the case with aggressive playstyles or when frequently employing tactics such as cornerblocking"

[edit:] That is... if we think that the optimal playstyle for caster classes is front-line corner blocking. If not, then switch it for ZB (or BiP? lol).

Are we done with N/Mo now? -- Willarddog (talk) 01:56, 16 June 2020 (UTC)


 * The problem with mend condition is that it's basically just a crappy version of MB&S. I don't necessarily want the hero to spam mend condition when it could be using spirit bond/SoA instead. The problem with adding more low cooldown spells is it simply means the hero will be casting the good prot spells less often. So while spells like aegis and shield guardian are not that great overall, I think they may outperform mend condition simply because they are higher impact per cast and will be used less frequently and thus cut less into spirit bond cast time. After all, with such high soul reaping, the hero is gated by cast times more than anything else. --Xanshiz (talk) 00:27, 17 June 2020 (UTC)


 * You have a point regarding mend condition, especially as it has low recharge. You could instead replace it with dismiss condition or mend ailment, which have longer cooldowns which timegate how often the hero is able to cast it. Alternatively, you could go with something like extinguish which would actually be most efficient at removing conditions en masse from the party. What it boils down to is that in the situations where N/Mo is described to have problems, there isn't a good reason to take the N/Mo prot over a second N/Rt healer. The only time I ever see aegis being relatively impactful is if it's up when displacement drops. Otherwise, its just a nominal filler with a long cast time. One last option is to include draw conditions. It has a low cast time & removes all conditions off the target; even though it just transfers them to the hero, it still results in less party members being affected by degen pressure. The downside is that it provides no other benefits (i.e. healing) to the target. The flip side to that is that the necro is healed; this might be beneficial for the BiP Prot below. Again, another option (because a 2nd condition removal spell is never really useful except in specific situations to begin with) is to take Reversal of Fortune with its short cast time + small prot capabilities. However, that falls under the same trap of shot cooldown skill potentially being used over Spirit Bond.


 * I think one option maybe worth looking into is Willarddog (talk) 12:57, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

BiP Prot
re: Are we done with N/Mo now?

A: No. (posting this as a summary of what was discussed on discord)

One issue with N/Mo backline hero is that none of the elites truly shine. In the current meta, N/Mo Prot only exists in an 8-man team combined with a BiP Resto to make up the backline, supporting a caster player. It exists only here as a variant. In general, N/Mo sees infrequent use in the meta as a whole. This is due in part to the fact that N/Mo Prot can respond weakly to wide-spread degen pressure when compared to bringing a second N/Rt Resto in general PvE situations, and partly simply due to the fact that it might not be as well known as the N/Rt second resto variant.

I Mention this all to say that one possible change that should be tested is taking Blood is Power off of the N/Rt resto and onto the N/Mo Prot, allowing the N/Rt (or Rt/any) Resto to be full-resto. The logic behind this suggestion is that the N/Mo prot has more variant skills which are less important (only the three mainbar prots + SoLS matter), while the N/Rt (or Rt/any) main healer has more useful skills they can bring. By removing BiP onto the N/Mo Prot, you don't have to waste slots on filler skills, and you also open up better skills which are often left behind on the N/Rt due to bar constraint.

N/Mo BiP Prot works well because it has a favorable attribute split and doesn't need BiP to support its (excluding Spirit Bond) inexpensive bar. You don't need more than 10 points in Protection, as there is very little benefit from going beyond that. This allows you to easily bring Blood Magic up to 10+2+1, while also maintaining 11+2 Soul Reaping. with 13 Soul Reaping + SoLS, assuming SoLS can be cast on cooldown, and Soul Reaping is used to its full benefit (at least three enemies die every 15 seconds), the N/Mo Prot will gain a total of ~75 energy in 15 seconds, or 5 Energy/second, or equivalently 15 pips of energy in a best case scenario. Even if you were to drop Soul from 11+2 down to 8+2 (to bring protection up to 12), you still end up with 67 energy in 15 seconds, or ~4.33 energy second, or equivalently 13 pips of energy. The point is, the N/Mo will never run out of energy despite not having BiP support, and should be able to sufficiently spam the daylights out of Spirit Bond.

This is good, as there are equivalent benefits for the Resto Healer, most importantly is that they can benefit from BiP. For a N/Rt Resto, you are able to run 12+1+1 Soul Reaping. This combined with SoLS + BiP gives you more than enough energy to bring Recuperation and sufficiently spam your resto heals + Xinrae's Weapon, as well as benefiting from higher health due to not needing any major/superior runes. If you have Zei Ri, you are able to run a Rt/any primary resto healer, allowing for 16 Restoration Magic heals which is extremely beneficial to have on a single healer team. BiP will also allow you to reliably bring [[Spirit Transfer@16] without having to worry about energy, healing for an ungodly 265 HP.

I think that the following BiP Prot + Full Resto backline can potentially exist as a solution to second resto vs prot debate for caster players, who do not need [[Splinter weapon@16] . Can it heal as much as a dual resto can? Probably not, but the full-resto definitely heals better than a single N/Rt BiP Resto, and responds to pressure much better with Recup. Combined with a BiP Prot, I think that this backline duo brings stronger healing, protection, and anti-pressure than a BiP Resto + N/Mo Prot, enough as much that a second resto really might not be necessary. I mean, c'mon, Spirit Bond! [build prof=Necromancer/Monk BloodMagic=10+2+1 SoulReaping=11+2 ProtectionPrayers=10] [Blood is Power][Blood Bond][Signet of Lost Souls][Spirit Bond][Shielding Hands][Shield of Absorption][Reverse Hex][Mend Condition][/build] + [build prof=N/Rt SoulReaping=12+1+1 RestorationMagic=12] [Xinrae's weapon][Signet of Lost Souls][Spirit Transfer][Mend Body and Soul][Spirit Light][Protective Was Kaolai][Life][Recuperation][/build] or [build prof=Rt/any RestorationMagic=12+3+1 ChannelingMagic=12+1 SpawningPower=3+1] [Signet of Spirits][Spirit Siphon][Spirit Transfer][Mend Body and Soul][Spirit Light][Protective Was Kaolai][Life][Recuperation][/build] and [build prof=Rt/N Communing=12+1+3 SpawningPower=11+3 Curses=6] [Soul Twisting][Shelter][Union][Displacement][Armor of Unfeeling][Boon of Creation][Signet of Creation][Enfeebling Blood][/build]
 * I'd prefer 12 prot over 10 prot, and I'd also prefer higher soul reaping on the bar with spirit bond. Nonetheless, there are concrete merits to the swap such as +2s on BiP and running Recup. The swap may work fine, although I'm not convinced it would necessarily outperform the current setup. This is where the importance of testing comes into play -- before making any concrete changes to the Mainbar, it is necessary to actually test the changes to see if they actually turn out better in practice. --Xanshiz (talk) 00:35, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Blinding Surge
Why not a Blinding Surge Elementalist as a third option for the variable hero slot? It is mentioned on the 7 Hero Mercernary Mesmerway page as an option for players without mercs. I remember it being quite popular and on the main mesmerway bar ~2/3 years ago. Tested it at the time and found it very effective. Has it fallen out of use?

Also, a new name indicating that this build is the "standard" mesmerway is needed imo. "7 Hero Mesmerway" might be good enough. "5 Hero Mesmerway" already exists, and we had the generic "7 Hero Discordway" as the reference build, even when other Discord-based alternatives were around. Feydslynox (talk) 13:31, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Running a blinding surge elementalist entails dropping a backline hero, since the variable hero slot would perhaps be more accurately labeled "variable backline hero." This would certainly work fine most of the time, but might make the team more prone to wiping than if you "played it safe" with a triple backline. There is definitely an argument for listing an offensive variant whereby you drop the third backline hero for a more offensive midline hero (like a blinding surge elementalist). In fact, Mercenary Mesmerway does this with the "Quadruple Energy Surge Variant." However, given that the variable hero for this page is already quite involved (in terms of number of variant bars), it might not be worth it (unless testing shows otherwise!). One compromise that has been tried is running a BSurge/restoration magic hybrid E/Rt bar. However, that setup tended to perform rather poorly in testing.


 * I think it would be useful to better indicate that this is the standard go-to setup in the name. "7 Hero Mesmerway" could work, but it's pretty undescriptive and as you allude to, many other Mesmer-based alternatives exist (pretty much every other 7 hero setup). Adding "offensive" at least separates from panic/ineptitude midline setups, although I don't love the name either. Maybe "7 Hero Standard Mesmerway"? What about "7 Hero Non-Mercenary Mesmerway"? --Xanshiz (talk) 19:10, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * B-surge would be a replacement over the MM for areas where MM is useless, i.e. no corpses or heavy anti-MM. I like either of those names. Standard implies, correctly, that this is generally the standard, optimal, meta build which should be run by most players in the majority of standard PvE settings Willarddog (talk) 19:02, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Should we add the below as an alternative to the Minion Master in either anti-MM areas (lack of corpses, anti-mm skills, heavy AoE damage, etc. Might be better for some elite areas). Requires bringing "Fall Back!" on the ST. (taken straight from merc mesmerway page) --Willarddog (talk) 22:19, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Merge completed
Ok so this had been languishing with a merge tag for about 4 months, and without any major objections noted on any of the affected pages, I've updated the tags and moved the old pages to the archive (praying for a bot to cleanup the redirects). Obviously we've got the current issue with the rating extension preventing us from applying ratings, however I believe once that's fixed you guys will all be 5-5-X'ing it (hence no provisional tag atm). -- Chieftain Alex (talk) 09:24, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Merging those pages was indeed needed, but IIRC we were leaning toward Standard Mesmerway as the new name for this build before the merge, to imply that this is "the" Mesmerway. It might be useful to rename it right now, if there is a consensus. Feydslynox (talk) 14:38, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Name
I want to make a new section for this. Offensive Mesmerway was going off of a suggestion made a long while back, and can definitely be changed. Here are some options: Please chime in with feedback. --Xanshiz (talk) 16:55, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * 7 Hero Non-Mercenary Mesmerway
 * 7 Hero Standard Mesmerway
 * 7 Hero Mesmerway (I don't like this)
 * Something else
 * I'd keep this one. --Krschkr (talk) 17:09, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Since the initial objective was to have an overarching Mesmerway page, 7 Hero Standard Mesmerway is, for me, the best option. Feydslynox (talk) 17:25, 24 October 2020 (UTC)