Archive talk:Team - Pancakeway

Pancake way?
Why pancake way?--Golden Star 17:29, 10 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Long story. Basically, if you're using this build, before the match you have to say:
 * "Do you know what time it is?"
 * "It's time for..."
 * "PANCAKE ATTACK!!!"
 * "YEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!"
 * The name emanates from this ceremonial war cry. --Vorith 17:34, 10 July 2008 (EDT)
 * And then get rolled...  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 17:41, 10 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Actually, we did 4srs good yesterday. Randompancakeway fails, but this way won halls. Lol? [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]]  ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  17:57, 10 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Only because we hallskipped :p -- Mafaraxas ( talk  &bull;  contribs ) 16:57, 11 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Nah, that didn't have anything to do with it... --Vorith 22:57, 11 July 2008 (EDT)

The name
no. Please change. I thought it would be like pancakes there; and then there was none! Now I'm sad. God box    17:36, 11 July 2008 (EDT)
 * There are pancakes... you just have to harness the power of the pancake before u can has them. --Vorith 22:57, 11 July 2008 (EDT)
 * 4srs, I need to stop RAing and actually edit this up. Lol. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]]  ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  01:06, 12 July 2008 (EDT)

Thanks for getting the bars in, Vorith. I've been swamped with work. Two jobs = very little downtime. T_T I'm gonna try to get some of the equipment and such put out now.  ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  17:49, 14 July 2008 (EDT)


 * Btw. I took Crit Defenses off of the DA Spear because it fails. There are plenty o' skills that are much more useful, like Assassin's Remedy or Remedy Signet for example. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]]  ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  18:03, 14 July 2008 (EDT)
 * K. That takes care of all the Usages and Equips for everything but the monks. 'Course, I doubt the monks really need 'em. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]]  ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  18:44, 14 July 2008 (EDT)


 * who got the bars in? (double check) -- Mafaraxas ( talk ) 21:03, 14 July 2008 (EDT)


 * Me and Vorith both. I edited some things to make it fail a bit less. If you have any ideas, go ahead an edit or discuss first. Whatever pleases ya. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]]  ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  21:07, 14 July 2008 (EDT)


 * yeah... whatev. -- Mafaraxas ( talk ) 21:09, 14 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Oh. Soz. Lol. I hadn't seen you anywhere on the page yet, so I just figured it was Vorith. Tyvm Marmar. Also, do ya think the Me/E is better than what I had when Sousuke was on it? [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]]  ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  21:11, 14 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Well seeing as Icy Shackles only costs 5e, all the other skills cost 10e, and Water Attunement is in the bar, I think that the decision to make the snare an uberspamz0r was a valid one. FC is probably > ES in this particular instance. --Vorith 14:59, 18 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Oh, one more thing... The page says that the snarespammer is supposed to run. That makes sense considering that he/she has Armor of Mist, but in a running match wouldn't the snare be too occupied snaring to run? It would seem to me that the non-Make Haste SH ele sholud run, rather than the snare. --Vorith 15:21, 18 July 2008 (EDT)
 * You must have "Make Haste!" for running and Song of Concentration for hero: Any other speedboost can in some way be removed from the person, thus killing the purpose of it; Song of Concentration is for when hero starts capping, without it it's just to fucking interrupt him and you autofail. God  box    15:35, 18 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Stupid comment above is stupid. You use Make Haste to run, not anything else. God  box    15:36, 18 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Maybe you're misinterpreting something I said. I was saying that the snare ele was labeled as "Snare/Runner" which didn't make much sense. In a running situation, the snare would be on the opponent's side, snaring, and would thus not be able to run. I was trying to justify my moving the "/Runner" to the SH ele with Fireball, not suggest that Armor of Mist was a good running skill. --Vorith 22:17, 18 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Soz 'bout the SnareRunner. That was Meta back when.. Well, back before the Battle Isles were around, if I remember right. Also, added Inspired Hex because i herd hexes r baed. If anyone thinks that's a bad idea, just make it Optional or whatever. Just thought it could help. :P [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]]  ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  15:46, 20 July 2008 (EDT)
 * If you think I'm lying about the SnareRunner thing, go look at the archived builds. T_T [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]]  ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  15:47, 20 July 2008 (EDT)
 * I don't think you're lying about the Snare/Runner. :P Also, good call on the hex removal, i herd runners dun liek heksiz. Would be worth it to put Convert on the runner and use the snare's slots for some anti-caster stuffz? The HB has Spotless and the RC has Veil, but in a situation where the runner's nowhere near the monks something like Convert would be useful. The changes you made seem to be a good compromise. On one-side-to-the-other running maps, the snare would often be closer to the runner than the monks. I'm gonna leave the ultimate verdict to you and the other HA'ers watching this page... I'm only r2 1/2, can't say I have enough experience to say for sure what setup would be best as far as hex removal goes. --Vorith 00:51, 21 July 2008 (EDT)

(Reset Indent) Tbh, I'm not even r1. Haha. As for the Anti-Caster, throwing in Power Return on the Snare (see Optionals) should be sufficient cast-hate, especially if run by a hero. I'll look into more things. Either way, Convert certainly wouldn't be a terrible idea. I'll put off making decisions on that until Marfaxas and Vorith have a chance to chime in.  ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  12:06, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Well, I don't know about all those r14 groups and, stuff, but I'm a bit of a cynic and when I'm running, I like to have hex removal right on my bar, rather than relying on someone else to get me running again. I'd be cool with replacing Fireball with Convert or something, so that the "Make Haste"d ele can get hid of his own hexes (or other people's, if necessary.) That would free up the snare for some painful mesmer sills to make the runner start QQ'ing pancake-style. --Vorith 22:38, 21 July 2008 (EDT)


 * I'm not sure it'd be possible to really get any worthwhile mesmer skills in. Without being a primary ele, we can't spread the water att at all, and fast casting is a very nice luxury. I guess, though, we could get Signet of Humility in there if we split 12 11 6 or 12 9 9 on the atts. Any suggestions? [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]]  ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  09:42, 22 July 2008 (EDT)


 * Gogo Hard Rez. Now we just need to get SoH. Well, don't need it, but it'd be nice. We could throw it on Gwen, or it could work pretty well on the Snare if we change the atts. Need suggestions. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]]  ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  12:01, 22 July 2008 (EDT)


 * I think the snare would be a good choice. If we go 12-9-9, that gives just a 54.54% downtime on humility, and a 33% decrease in cast time, which isn't bad. Coupled with the enchant stripping spearchucker, humility could be a real pain to HB's and stuff. --Vorith 12:07, 22 July 2008 (EDT)


 * /doublepost... Since the snare's spells all have a 1-second CT, I think some of the FC att pts could be spared for dom. 2/3 of a second still isn't bad, and I think that 10 of every 22 seconds of humility is more useful than taking off 1/6 of a second of cast time. --Vorith 12:11, 22 July 2008 (EDT)


 * I changed the stats and replaced IH with SoH. I figure an Optional is much better than a defined slot, depending on player-style and AI v. Human skill use. Let me know what you think. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]]  ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  12:41, 22 July 2008 (EDT)

Large Sections r baed
I'd say it looks pretty good. (I think?) Of course, we should probably get back together and actually run it as it's listed on the page to make sure we haven't screwed up the pancake chi. The point of the build is that it's random, but works... take out the "works" part and it's just... random. >_< --Vorith 22:55, 22 July 2008 (EDT)


 * Haha. Yeah. It's funny to think this started as Randomway. Now it's become a non-traditional Balanced, more or less. And I like it. We really should run this soon. Maybe this week/weekend or something. I'd really love to, personally. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]]  ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  23:02, 22 July 2008 (EDT)


 * I'll be sure to get the skills on Adella so I can wear my uberawesome armor instead of whatever I load onto Mr Splodey Hair. :P --Vorith 03:37, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

Hey guys
We 4srsly need to get back together and actually run this so we can take the trial tag off. :P --Vorith 19:58, 26 July 2008 (EDT)
 * be brave and move it to testing. God  box    16:22, 12 August 2008 (EDT)

Liar
there are no fucking pancakes here. Ravager ofDreams

Running PD mes as a hero is one of the dumber ideas i've ever heard. &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Rawr. 17:49, 12 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Spam is gud. And besides, it's not recommended to be played by a hero, but it can be. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2"> ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  17:50, 12 August 2008 (EDT)
 * The pancake was a lie?-- R <font color="green" size="1"> e l y k 22:28, 13 August 2008 (EDT)


 * needs moar glyph imo + steam on the snare. Edwards 00:13, 14 August 2008 (EDT)
 * I herd that that's pretty bad tbh, at least when you're running it in team that does even close to what it's supposed to do. Lame Offense > Lame Defense. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2"> ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  01:24, 14 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Of course, I'm not saying that it's a bad idea, but being able to clean up hexes easily from multiple points as well as take out Rez Sigs just feels a lot comfier than OH LOOK I'M BLINDIN U SO UR RC CAN USE HIS MAGICKS ON U AND IT DON'T MEAN SHIT K. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2"> ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  01:26, 14 August 2008 (EDT)


 * Blind is meant to be used at key moments (before spikes, before your runner is about to get Bull's-ed, etc. However, given the level of player that PvX caters to, you might be right that it's not the most effective option. Edwards 01:49, 15 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Or you could just have the PD interrupt his Bull's Strike. That works, too. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2"> ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  14:32, 15 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Also, curious as to why you couldn't use the burning from Rodgort's and Searing/Teinai's to trigger Steam. I'll list it as a variant, but I'm not sure what to drop for GoI in the first place. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2"> ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  14:36, 15 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Owait. It's already listed as a variant. Still looking for suggestions as to what should be removed to make room for GoI. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2"> ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  14:37, 15 August 2008 (EDT)


 * Take out Sig of Humility, because it's simply not needed. Glyph Imo + Steam is simply more useful when used correctly than SoH and any of the other alternates. Edwards 18:27, 15 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Could always get rid of icy prism-- R <font color="green" size="1"> e l y k 20:21, 15 August 2008 (EDT)
 * I could see Icy Prism going, but Sig of Humility is pretty good, and losing it would be pretty bad. Although, it would also allow you to 12 into Water. Better to lose the inspiration or the sig interrupt? [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2"> ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  22:03, 15 August 2008 (EDT)
 * I'd personally ditch Prism over SoH. If interrupting rezzes becomes make-or-break in a match, then... hey look, a PD mesmer with Cry of Frustration! gg all. Being able to knock out leets is more important than the sig interrupt imo, and SoH is the entire reason that we put any inspiration on the mez at all. If SoH isn't needed, then a complete overhaul would be more logical than a small tweak. --Vorith 23:12, 15 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Agreed. I'll change that out now then. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2"> ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  02:59, 16 August 2008 (EDT)


 * SoH is still a a bad choice, imo. The only time it breaks games is when you have a specific elite skill you need shut down in order to kill.  Conditionway is powerful, but it becomes a beast when coupled with a SoH on the RC.  Builds with lots of pressure can benefit greatly from shutting down a WoH in GvG.  Because you don't have a lot of condition pressure, shutting down RC for 12 out of 20 seconds *if it doesn't get interrupted* isn't going to be what wins you the game.  Similarily, because HA monks use Healer's Boon, and not WoH, you're not doing very much good by using SoH on the heal monk.  Personally, I think you'd be better off to spec into earth and bring a Ward Against Foes, which is probably the best snare available for HA. Edwards 18:22, 16 August 2008 (EDT)
 * First of all, there are already two snares. I'd drop Freezing Gust before SoH. Second of all, PD camps RC, DA camps HB, and this gets to shutdown the other teams Taint or whatever else happens to be rather annoying. Especially if you happen to say SoH the other teams Earth Shaker, you can just about keep him from using it ever. Be good at SoH. The only reason to replace it would be stronger Hex Removal. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2"> ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  19:42, 16 August 2008 (EDT)
 * The A/P spear should go though, there are just better choices to choose from. Air of Dis looks interesting. A DA scythe is just better than spear-- R <font color="green" size="1"> e l y k 05:59, 17 August 2008 (EDT)

Btw get rid of gole on 2nd ele, you will nvr run out of energy, bring meteor, fireball, or liquid flame, or Rodgorts...-- R <font color="green" size="1"> e l y k 06:01, 17 August 2008 (EDT)
 * That's a good point, I have no idea why the Make Haster has GoLE... I think it used to have Rod's or something, but then it got changed. We probably should fix that, yeah. --Vorith 13:46, 17 August 2008 (EDT)
 * The DA Scythe is terrible. You have to be in melee, meaning you're susceptible to snares, and you have no decent unblockable attacks. Air of Dis might be nice, but the DA Spear was primarily meant to quickly remove enchantments from the opposing team as a whole, then pressure the monks with decent critical hit damage packets constantly. I'll look at possible replacements for it, though. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2"> ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  17:15, 17 August 2008 (EDT)
 * FYI, I ran this with my guild a while ago, and we found that an Assault Enchantments sin worked just as well as the Critical Spearchucker listed here. I think that we could definitely list this as a suitable alternative, for those who don't want to try out the DA build we have listed. I'll try to get a bar together as an example, I don't quite remember what my friend was running at the time skill for skill. --Vorith 20:10, 17 August 2008 (EDT)

You should rename it
To something that isn't dumb. If you're basing the name on a joke, make it a good one. --<font color="Black">Tab  <font color="Black">Moo  06:02, 17 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Nowai I lieks teh pankakz. --Vorith 13:46, 17 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Should reflect what you're going to find in the build. God  box    17:21, 17 August 2008 (EDT)
 * So should we name it Build:Team - Failway or Build:Team - How To Convince Opponents You're Running Randomway? Maybe Build:Team - Lame Legoway? Except Legoway doesn't exactly tell you what that build's supposed to do, either. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2"> ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  17:30, 17 August 2008 (EDT)
 * I don't see why you're making such a big deal about the name. What would you call it? HA Earthshaker SH Pressure with Heavy Interrupts and Enchantment Removal? There really is no way to name this other than to invoke the muse that is Pancake. I mean, look at Strong Like Bearway. The name is ridiculous, the page is formatted horribly and full of random crap, and no one has ever bothered to change it. It's classified as Great and has a stupid name, I don't see why this build that's just in Testing should be any different. So... just get some sliced bananas and eat yer dang flapjacks. :) --Vorith 19:47, 17 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Lumberjackway! [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2"> ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  23:57, 17 August 2008 (EDT)

Air of Disenchantment
Officially has to replace the DA Spear. It's just so much better, tbh. <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2"> ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  16:26, 19 August 2008 (EDT)
 * H'okay. The optionals need condensing, but I'm not big on Illusion Magic. Also, I'm still curious about Power Block versus Psychic Distraction? [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2"> ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  16:50, 19 August 2008 (EDT)
 * So.. Power Block vs. PD? Also, any thoughts on dropping a mesmer for a Conjure WS Derv? [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2"> ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  17:19, 19 August 2008 (EDT)
 * I personally love Power Block. Whether we should use it, though, is really based on the target, though. If you're going after a healer, with ubershortcast spells and stuff, then you need PD. If you try to hit a skill with Power Block and miss, you're out of business for the next 20 seconds. You'll do more damage with PD. However, if you're going after, say, an SH ele, Power Block is the balls. It's nearly impossible to miss their spells, and the eles become so afraid of getting PB'd that they just sit around waiting for you to die before they'll even dream of casting anything. Healer's aren't as scared of a PB Mesmer though, versus PD, because they know they'll be so hard to hit. My impression of this build has always been that it's super HB hate. For that reason, I'd recommend staying with a PD, but PB might be worth listing in Variants. --Vorith 17:27, 19 August 2008 (EDT)
 * As for WS vs. Earthshaker, I'd never dream of taking out the Warrior. WS may be the imbabeans, but knockdowns + DoTAoE is just a classic because it's so awesome. Just look at RaO SH Pressure... it hasn't even got AoE knockdowns and it's in Great. If we needed a second frontliner, I'd be all over the Dervish, but as it is it looks like all our slots are full. --Vorith 17:27, 19 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Gotcha on the PB. I think PD will stay then. A second frontliner would be really nice, but I personally hate relying on damage that can be blinded, weaknessed, blocked, and snared out of business. It was a thought me and Armond have. We'll have to run this with the five-man midline to test. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2"> ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  17:37, 19 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Cool. I don't know how often I'll be available in GW for the next week or two, but I'd love to come along if you guys are running it. --Vorith 19:06, 19 August 2008 (EDT)

Air of disenchantment sucks. It's not that AoD is a bad skill, but the fact that you'd have to run a full illusion magic bar. —ǘŋ Ɛxɩsƫ  06:03, 5 October 2008 (EDT)

Lol
Dom mesmers get run by heroes. —ǘŋ Ɛxɩsƫ  06:02, 5 October 2008 (EDT)
 * ups ur bad. i herd locking a pd on a rc makes said rc wet said rc's pants. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] ツ cedave   (☆contributions☆)  20:05, 5 October 2008 (EDT)

lol
Are we actually going to try to make some sense out of this build or just wait for them to trash it? >_< --<font color="#003399">orith  <font color="#003399">is so <font color="#003399">fail  10:17, 6 October 2008 (EDT)
 * We should try to mod it to what we were running last night. It kinda owned, just we need to work on not having a caller who hasn't called before and doesn't have a mic. <3 u Bernie. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] ツ cedave   (☆contributions☆)  11:52, 6 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Lol yeah, an actual caller would have been epic. I would have done it, but I suck at calling. I can change the bars to what we were using, if I can remember it correctly. It was Erfshake, WS, PD, 2x SH, Unsteady, and standard Mo/Mo, right? --[[Image:User Vorith sig.jpg]]<font color="#003399">orith  <font color="#003399">is so <font color="#003399">fail  11:56, 6 October 2008 (EDT)
 * calling and being strong warrior is like patting the head and rubbing the stomach at the same time for me :( -- Mafaraxas ( talk ) 12:06, 6 October 2008 (EDT)
 * I invented being a strong war. Rawrawr Dinosaur 13:12, 6 October 2008 (EDT)
 * ^ [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] ツ cedave   (☆contributions☆)  13:48, 6 October 2008 (EDT)
 * On a related note, yes, those were the bars. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] ツ cedave   (☆contributions☆)  13:48, 6 October 2008 (EDT)
 * On another related note, it appears Maf's simultaneous calling and knocking abilities are about as good as his abilities to unflag brave monk heroes so i don't asplode in vanquishes. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] ツ cedave   (☆contributions☆)  13:49, 6 October 2008 (EDT)
 * I'll have to practice my calling, then. >_< And I'll put the new bars in to replace the silliness we came up with after asploding the original Pway. btw, like the new sig? :P --[[Image:User Vorith sig.jpg]]<font color="#003399">orith  <font color="#003399">is so <font color="#003399">fail  15:21, 6 October 2008 (EDT)

This look alright? If so, I'll put the bars in and talk to Guild of Deals and Goldenstar for revotes, since their problems will have been addressed. --<font color="#003399">orith  <font color="#003399">is so <font color="#003399">fail  15:50, 6 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Sexy sig. And that looks sexy, too. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]]  ツ cedave   (☆contributions☆)  16:58, 6 October 2008 (EDT)
 * kk gogogo copypaste. --[[Image:User Vorith sig.jpg]]<font color="#003399">orith  <font color="#003399">is so <font color="#003399">fail  17:01, 6 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Lol, wanbe trip ele! Rawrawr Dinosaur 17:02, 6 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Featured, yo... ohbaby. --[[Image:User Vorith sig.jpg]]<font color="#003399">orith  <font color="#003399">is so <font color="#003399">fail  02:48, 12 October 2008 (EDT)
 * I give it 12 hours at the most before some sysop comes in here QQ'ing about the name. xD (12 hours would be 14:53 on the sig, just watch below) --[[Image:User Vorith sig.jpg]]<font color="#003399">orith  <font color="#003399">is so <font color="#003399">fail  02:54, 12 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Ohsnap, 4 votes and it's 4.9, just .05 below SLB-way. :O Should I do the honors and bump it into Great or wait until it's already vetted to author-vote? --[[Image:User Vorith sig.jpg]]<font color="#003399">orith  <font color="#003399">is so <font color="#003399">fail  04:38, 12 October 2008 (EDT)

Mesmer
Physic Distraction sucks. Get a good mes elite, like PBlock, Esurge, PANIC!, VoR, etc. PD is good for interupting Ghost, thats it... And you can use a ranger with Dis SHot for that... 17:19, 6 October 2008 (EDT)
 * gz. you get the "I'm Fucking Retarded" Award. Wanbe disapproves of your MENSA membership. Go here to complain. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] ツ cedave   (☆contributions☆)  17:21, 6 October 2008 (EDT)
 * The preceeding stupid unsigned comment was added by unranked noob IP troll 70.22.239.244 at 21:19, 6 October 2008. --[[Image:User Vorith sig.jpg]]<font color="#003399">orith  <font color="#003399">is so <font color="#003399">fail  17:42, 6 October 2008 (EDT)
 * yea cuz im a troll..... i'd also like to add that i have posted anon so many times that when i start to type in that little box to confirm im not a bot, my comp fills in the rest by remembering field inputs 17:49, 6 October 2008 (EDT)
 * so ur a common pvx troll. that makes you even worse than most trolls. go back to gw or complain somewhere else about something everyone knows is good. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] ツ cedave   (☆contributions☆)  17:52, 6 October 2008 (EDT)
 * lol stop harassing him, Cedave... he has teh haxx teh captcha skillz, that makes him automagically epic win. --[[Image:User Vorith sig.jpg]]<font color="#003399">orith  <font color="#003399">is so <font color="#003399">fail  18:12, 6 October 2008 (EDT)
 * i didnt hax it... i have just been anon so long that i have filled out most of the captchas and my comp remembers them with cookies....20:24, 6 October 2008 (EDT)
 * It's called sarcasm, I wasn't actually trying to suggest you hacked PvX. I in no way intended to give you that much credit. Now gtfo pl0x. :D --[[Image:User Vorith sig.jpg]]<font color="#003399">orith  <font color="#003399">is so <font color="#003399">fail  20:28, 6 October 2008 (EDT)
 * i swear this site is ran by 4chan and their bottomless pit of /b/... http://www.flippeh.de/funPics/toLazyToRename/b's%20sarcasm.jpg 20:33, 6 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Dude...rules 1 and 2. but yes, i must agree. Also, PD can massively maul people. not as potent as say Power Block, but the very short recharge makes missing an interrupt less devastating to your own bar.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">I'm Sober. What's your excuse? [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 20:37, 6 October 2008 (EDT)
 * 4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chan4chanv
 * -- Mafaraxas ( talk ) 21:47, 6 October 2008 (EDT)
 * PB fails unless you wait for a 1 second or greater cast skill so you don't miss and recharge for 20 seconds. ups. also, cookies don't remember captchas, your IE or Firefox's auto-fill does it for you. lrn2interwebs. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] ツ cedave   (☆contributions☆)  23:57, 6 October 2008 (EDT)
 * wtb super fast reaction times-- Shadow [[Image:Relyk Sig.gif]] 02:55, 12 October 2008 (EDT)
 * The bottom line is that PB creams eles because they have lots of long-cast stuff and use few attributes. If you're going for something more like a necro, with shorter cast times and more varied attributes, though, you need something perhaps less devastating to the victim, but usable to interrupt more skills. Also, PB doesn't hit rituals, signets, attacks, or just plain skills like Claim Resource (a kinda important one) and if you use CoF on somebody's rez signet and then don't have it when it comes time to interrupt the Ghostly, ppl get mad. The main reason why, in HA, PD > PB is versatility. In RA, though, PB is king. --[[Image:User Vorith sig.jpg]]<font color="#003399">orith  <font color="#003399">is so <font color="#003399">fail  04:15, 12 October 2008 (EDT)

(reset) I just saw a W/P in HA advertising for a PD and 3 eles r8+ vent required. I lulzed so hard when I realized they probably didn't know a r3 but their build on PvX. :D --<font color="#003399">orith  <font color="#003399">is so <font color="#003399">fail  13:57, 12 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Eh, there's plenty of variants using 3 eles. -- Mafaraxas ( talk ) 14:09, 12 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Well, that makes Earthshaker, ?, PD, E x3, RC, HB... I'd put my money on that last spot being a Derv. :P --[[Image:User Vorith sig.jpg]]<font color="#003399">orith  <font color="#003399">is so <font color="#003399">fail  00:42, 13 October 2008 (EDT)
 * lmao just saw the same guy in HA asking for r8/9+ derv and ele. :P It's uberdefinitely Pway. --[[Image:User Vorith sig.jpg]]<font color="#003399">orith  <font color="#003399">is so <font color="#003399">fail  22:27, 13 October 2008 (EDT)

Name change
Pancakeway violates PvX:NAME. Suggest possible names below. God box    08:35, 12 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Damn, overshot with my estimate by 6 hours. I was too generous... How about Strong Like Bearway? I rlly liek taht 1. --[[Image:User Vorith sig.jpg]]<font color="#003399">orith  <font color="#003399">is so <font color="#003399">fail  12:41, 12 October 2008 (EDT)
 * btw check out sections 1, 2, 5, and 6... you're basically the only person who has expressed any concern at all about the name, and half this page is argueargueargue about whether it's an appropriate name (which it is.) :S --[[Image:User Vorith sig.jpg]]<font color="#003399">orith  <font color="#003399">is so <font color="#003399">fail  12:48, 12 October 2008 (EDT)
 * PW:SIGN states that the name should represent the build. imo trip ele =/ pancakes. Brandnew.  12:49, 12 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Originally, the objective of the build was to be random. I mean it had an A/P Dark Apostasy Spearchucker, wtf is up with that? There was really no practical purpose for it, it was just there 4 lulz. Then we would all goof off during the match, generally just having a good time at the expense of all the ubersrs HA'ers we faced. Thus, the name Pancakeway emerged. The point is to have fun, not necessarily to win. Of course, we eventually revamped it when we realized what a dire condition the former build was in, and the new version does have such crazydamages that I've never seen it get less than a +10 morale boost in Zaishen (record is like 12 seconds >_<) but the authors, that is, Cedave, Mafaraxas, and I, have grown up HA'ing balances similar to this, and our groups that have run this have always called it Pancakeway. Yes, it may be random, and, some might say, as Tab did, "dumb," but tbh I don't think "Build:Team - HA Triple Elementalist Earthshaker Balance" or even something more concise and slightly less descriptive like "Build:Team - HA Strongway" would be the same. --[[Image:User Vorith sig.jpg]]<font color="#003399">orith  <font color="#003399">is so <font color="#003399">fail  13:05, 12 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Meh, I personally don't care;p I like the name as it is :> Brandnew.  13:11, 12 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Name is terrible lol. Please change. Rawrawr Dinosaur 13:15, 12 October 2008 (EDT)
 * ur terrible rawr, may i change you? :> Brandnew.  14:11, 12 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Rawrawr Dinosaur is awesome. owait he has no pancakes nvm... --[[Image:User Vorith sig.jpg]]<font color="#003399">orith  <font color="#003399">is so <font color="#003399">fail  14:45, 12 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Name is a working title. Don't want to turn this into another Conditionway situation, so I figure we'll make the build, then rename it appropriately. Also, I still think Lumberjackway is legit. Strong Like Bearway ring a bell, ffs? [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] ツ cedave   (☆contributions☆)  21:41, 12 October 2008 (EDT)
 * This got vetted osht. Also, Strong Like Bearway is legit, so is this. Or we'll just call it Lumberjackway kthx. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] ツ cedave   (☆contributions☆)  21:43, 12 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Yeah, I put it as featured untested yesterday. :P --[[Image:User Vorith sig.jpg]]<font color="#003399">orith  <font color="#003399">is so <font color="#003399">fail  21:47, 12 October 2008 (EDT)
 * lawl @ tie for 4th place among 8-man HA teams on PvX. Strong Like Bear = Pancakeway + .01 ftw --[[Image:User Vorith sig.jpg]]<font color="#003399">orith  <font color="#003399">is so <font color="#003399">fail  23:15, 12 October 2008 (EDT)
 * lmfao Pancakeway is sooooo meta right now, it's just that no one wants to call it pancakeway. Srsly, though, every group I've gone up against today has had an Earthshaker, a WS, and at least 2, almost always 3 eles (2 fire, 1 earth). The only problem is that all of those grps are higher rank than me, so I'm continually rolled by our own build. lmfao What have we done to deserve this? >_< --[[Image:User Vorith sig.jpg]]<font color="#003399">orith  <font color="#003399">is so <font color="#003399">fail  00:30, 15 October 2008 (EDT)

Really, if you think you invented this, you are wrong. People have been running this for months and months. Rawrawr Dinosaur 11:34, 15 October 2008 (EDT)

Wut
Why doesn't this have either dual warrior(bull's) or a water ele? Letting shit walk out of the AoE isn't really smart. —ǘŋ Ɛxɩsƫ  05:12, 13 October 2008 (EDT)
 * apparently you didn't see earthshaker. or you're fucking terrible. ups. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] ツ cedave   (☆contributions☆)  05:15, 13 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Yeah, um... Earthshaker is an AoE knockdown, in case you didn't notice... it tends to knock lotsa people down, um... in an AoE. --[[Image:User Vorith sig.jpg]]<font color="#003399">orith  <font color="#003399">is so <font color="#003399">fail  12:57, 13 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Yeah needs more kd and snare. Earth Shaker isn't going to do it by itself-- Shadow [[Image:Relyk Sig.gif]] 23:13, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
 * you don't HA much, do you? [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] ツ cedave   (☆contributions☆)  23:30, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
 * This build is what's referred to as "strong" or "brave." In layman's terms, for those who aren't aware of all internets traditions (<- meme, fyi) it sacrifices defense and non-damage dealing support for insanely epic uberdamages. You don't need Icy Shackles or some other form of snare, it just sacrifices a slot that could be used for something that can actually blow the shit out of the enemy. The point isn't to "OMG I SNARED UR MUNK IN MAH SUVANUH HEET LOLOLOLOLOLZ!" but rather to use AoE on balled enemies like all pre-Searing Elementalists know you're supposed to do. If you need target kills, that's what Rodgort's is for. If you don't care who you're killing, then just spam AoE all over the entire team and blow everything up. --[[Image:User Vorith sig.jpg]]<font color="#003399">orith  <font color="#003399">is so <font color="#003399">fail  23:45, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
 * I cba to do the maths, but I'd imagine, given an area of a map, then given the area which players are statistically likely to remain in in order to play their roles effectively, the statistics are rather high that you're hitting 2 or more characters with any single AoE spell at any given time. Also, killing things is always the best defense, since a dead thing can't do shit, eh? [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] ツ cedave   (☆contributions☆)  03:12, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
 * I hope that was a joke. This is a trip ele defenceball. It isnt strong... or brave. Rawrawr Dinosaur 11:36, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Vorith's just bad at PvX slang. for a gwwiki-er, you have to give him credit for trying. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] ツ cedave   (☆contributions☆)  13:39, 15 October 2008 (EDT)

You guys gave shit reason's. I'm putting in a water ele. Erf shakur can't knock them down in SH always to be honest; as your first job is to pressure, not to spam kd around so they dont walk away. —ǘŋ Ɛxɩsƫ  05:48, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Also; blackout sucks. I'm removing it. —ǘŋ  Ɛxɩsƫ  05:57, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Not much of a discussion huh...-- Shadow [[Image:Relyk Sig.gif]] 11:27, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Why should I discuss it if I'm right anyway? Blackout just sucks; done. —ǘŋ  Ɛxɩsƫ  10:27, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

Unexist
You're a nigger. Stop modifying a vetted build. I'm undoing all your shitty edits atm. ツ cedave  (☆contributions☆)  13:33, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
 * UPS! Unexist>you. God  box    13:34, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
 * unexist wanted a fucking ward against harm in this build ups? [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] ツ cedave   (☆contributions☆)  13:36, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Ward against Harm is amazing. I do not see your point? Rawrawr Dinosaur 13:39, 15 October 2008 (EDT)


 * And don't even think about violating 1RV to shit this build up. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] ツ cedave   (☆contributions☆)  13:35, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
 * WaH is an amazing skill, as rawr said, and adding snares really helps this build a lot. God  box    13:44, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Unsteady Ground is a snare against melee, no? Also, I'm pretty sure Ward Against Foes is a snare, too. Mebbe go make a new build that uses snares, seeing as most people think UG/Eruption makes this build great, yeye? [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] ツ cedave   (☆contributions☆)  13:45, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Believe me, I do not doubt the power of UG. Just snaring people in AoE doubles the effectiveness of SHs, and WaH is KoTH godmode (while UG is not). WaF is a snare, yes, but if they stand in WaF all the time (ie when you cast SH on them) then theyre terrible anyway. Rawrawr Dinosaur 13:54, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
 * ups. Grasping Should've been on there. Blame Vorith for that one. As for WaH, no shit it's god-mode, but you have to make it there first. Trip Ele Ward faggotry is gonna be hard to win shit with, especially if you have shit players. Mebbe write up that faggy DA-Chain WaH shit that [Fame] was using yesterday. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] ツ cedave   (☆contributions☆)  14:06, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
 * If you cant get to halls with 2 melee, mes, 2 fire eles, and a snare to keep them in heats and stop gay make haste kiting.... wtf...? Rawrawr Dinosaur 14:09, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
 * The build is kind of made for hall holding too o.O God  box    14:14, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Meh. I say leave this build as it is and just write up a new one tbh. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] ツ cedave   (☆contributions☆)  14:25, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Or variant out the UG/WaH. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] ツ cedave   (☆contributions☆)  14:25, 15 October 2008 (EDT)

Shitty edits? No. It actually makes sence. You have enough defensefag with water ele, maybe even more because anyone half decent will interupt eruption anyway. WaH is still great; just not meta because people think earth ele's own. We'll, they're strong, but not that much. 1 earth 1 fire is pretty hawt, but when you run 2 fire letting shit fuck up your SH doesn't really increase your damage. Please; don't be so foolish and theorycraft less. Ask people who are actually good at this game and they'll agree, you've kited out of the aoe in about 1 or 2 secs. With a f-burst or gust on your ass, you can't. Oh and I know you shitters will say grasping earth / ward against foes, grasping earth might, but ward against foes should be used purely defensive or you'll drop cause your monks are euro. —ǘŋ Ɛxɩsƫ  10:30, 16 October 2008 (EDT)

FFS
stop changing a build that was vetted great, kthx. there's plenty of build namespace left, use it. ツ cedave  (☆contributions☆)  14:29, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Just for the record, I just changed the name of that SH ele cos someone else had changed it to the Song of Concentration version. Spaggage 14:44, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Making quite minor changes that are better is acceptable. God  box    14:46, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
 * replacing a FoMF WoW with Rez Sig/SoC is better? That makes lots of sense. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] ツ cedave   (☆contributions☆)  15:07, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
 * I did that. It actually does. Rawrawr Dinosaur 15:12, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Because the Make Haste can't take SoC? I think you've lost your touch, Rawr. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] ツ cedave   (☆contributions☆)  18:43, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
 * The ES war has SoC, there's no need to be changing any profs to put it on an ele. >_< --[[Image:User Vorith sig.jpg]]<font color="#003399">orith  <font color="#003399">is so <font color="#003399">fail  23:08, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Oh, yeah... Rawrawr, in case you didn't know, Warriors with 33% IAS and a Furious weapon tend to charge adrenaline a lot faster than eles with staves. SoC being put on 1 instead of 5 wasn't an accident. --[[Image:User Vorith sig.jpg]]<font color="#003399">orith  <font color="#003399">is so <font color="#003399">fail  23:11, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Lol, you should take SoC on a ele and take grasping earth on your hammer. Grasping owns on hammers. —ǘŋ  Ɛxɩsƫ  10:32, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
 * And speccing into an attribute you only need for one skill from skills you do need, versus speccing it from energy storage makes sense. :P I like the idea, not gonna lie, but it makes more sense to take out energy storage rather than strength. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] ツ cedave   (☆contributions☆)  20:58, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
 * You don't need spec for grasping earth to become effective. On hammer it works perfect with only 3 earth magic. —ǘŋ  Ɛxɩsƫ  09:27, 19 October 2008 (EDT)

Warrior
You don't need attributes in Command to use SoC. Put them into Strength. Also, having Strength at 14 and Hammer at 13 may be a better choice for Enraging charge?-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">I'm Sober. What's your excuse? 23:24, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
 * The Warrior's using Grasping Earth now, but the team composition doesn't match. >.> ــмıкε  нaшк  21:08, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
 * 1. You don't need our permission, you can change it yourself. 2. Why does the war have Grasping, again? I think there's surely a better place for that than on the war. 3. What the fuck is Unexist's problem? Two vote removals and a 2-1-O?I though build masters were actually supposed to be good at GW. o.O --[[Image:User Vorith sig.jpg]]<font color="#003399">orith  <font color="#003399">is so <font color="#003399">fail  21:39, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
 * btw I've seen high-ranked groups running this compensate for the lack of snaring by putting an Icy Shackles snare in place of the Unsteady ele. If Unexist played HA, he would probably know that, and would suggest we make a change rather than raping the rating with his OMG I'Z BILD MASTUR I SO GUD @ GAIM powerz. Discuss. --[[Image:User Vorith sig.jpg]]<font color="#003399">orith  <font color="#003399">is so <font color="#003399">fail  21:46, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
 * The war has grasping because while an entire group of balling idiots gets knocked over(Which means they will be in range for it) they will also all get snared. ﮎHædõ๘  یíɳ [[image:Shadowsin_sig.PNG|19px]] 23:49, 16 October 2008 (EDT)
 * P.S. "Why doesn't this have either dual warrior(bull's) or a water ele? Letting shit walk out of the AoE isn't really smart. —ǘŋ  Ɛxɩsƫ  05:12, 13 October 2008 (EDT)"Maybe Vorith should read the entire conversation before opening his mouth. Unexist did suggest putting in a water ele, and then was promptly shot down and called bad by Cedave. This is becoming a cluster fuck of drama, Cedave, Imo this comes down to personal preference, some teams will want the water ele while others will use the earth ele. Put in a variant for that ele and stop drama whoring. I know this was vetted "Great" but the only one I would trust in the rating list at that time is you, and at the moment you are taking these suggestions too personally. Vorith, Coming in late and shooting your mouth off is kinda a bad plan, especially if you plan on tl;dr ing. ﮎHædõ๘  یíɳ [[image:Shadowsin_sig.PNG|19px]] 00:09, 17 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Hi. Its pretty clear you haven't realised a couple of things. A) its not your build, its our build. Unexist can edit it as much as you want. B) Whether you like it or not, this is now been transformed, by community comments, into a build that was already meta, and is genuinely not yours. Stop being so possesive. Thx. Rawrawr Dinosaur 12:11, 17 October 2008 (EDT)

Phenaxkian
You're wrong. You use the hammer to spam kd's at the prot, not to spam kd's at SH's. Unsteady ground doesn't count as KD, as you're not going to SH warriors; no? It's all about the hammer from your part of few, but in practice he can't snare shit at all. —ǘŋ Ɛxɩsƫ  18:01, 21 October 2008 (EDT)