User talk:Hatch/Glint's Challenge

Second draft
those bars are terrible... at least take meta bars...Illoyon 20:18, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Sin: NO PvE-Skills; wasting two slots for useless and unnecessary defense aka Shadow Refuge and Critical Defenses.
 * Communing rit: Brutal Weapon...this is PvE; Displacement and Union without ST is pointless; Boon of Creation is a much more reliable e-management then Signet of Creation (also SoC in addition to BoC can be quite useful).
 * Resto rit: Weapon of Remedy is a really underpowered elite and highly inferior to Signet of Spirits in terms of damage, support and e-management (via Spirit Siphon); NO Protective Was Kaolai...seriously wtf?; wasting two slots for additional unnecessary spirits (Rejuvenation, Recovery)
 * UA Monk: Healing Whisper...terrible skill (especially on heroes, because of their poor usage); Watchful Healing...health regen in PvE (atleast take Healing Breeze...this is one of the worst f*** skills in the game); Extinguish also this is highly unnecessary, it is a god damned 15e skill...monk heroes are already bad with energy, but this skill just drain them to uselessness.
 * Discord 1: You have better options than Discord; Animate Bone Horror is just bad and Animate Bone Minions is more than enough to keep up minions; Well of Suffering...heath degen in PvE...; no support skills...
 * Discord 2: If you want a minion bomber take Animate Bone Minions, also two bombers are overkill.
 * Icy: Deathly Chill and Vile Miasma are terrible single target skills...again this is PvE...degen and single target skills are pointless.
 * WE Axe: melee heroes are still bad, with the exception of dagger spammers (since they now abuse an op dagger chain); unnessesary defense skill (aka Smoke Powder Defense).


 * Illoyon seems a bit of a noob for three comments there:
 * Weapon of remedy provides much needed relief from burning and daze.
 * Extinguish is useful when Incendiary Bonds hits your balled group + also functions to remove daze during the ranger/dervish wave.
 * Degen is moderately useful when foes are just on edge of aggro circle - they have their decent monster regen skill and like to activate it as they run off to hide, the little fuckers.
 * The rest I agree with. Cɥıǝɟʇɐıu Alǝx  22:43, 26 June 2012 (UTC)


 * if you need WoR, take a SoLS healer, don't waste rit heroes for a job necros can do better. SoS is to good to miss; Extinguish may be useful but it is just unnecessary (you can do glint's challenge afk without any mass condition removal...right?) and monk heroes just can't manage their energy with 15e skills. If you really need it, put it on one of those necros. Illoyon 22:58, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your input! --Hatch 16:20, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
 * You got it right, both Ritualists are underperforming as I don’t have the right skills available at this time. I will take your suggestions into account. I have updated skill bars (performing MUCH better, i. e. no more trouble during the second wave) for these pending publish. I still don’t like Boon of Creation, because it is too easily removed. The same goes for most other Enchantments. There are just too many Destroyers of Thoughts, so I will try without those for the time being. By the way, SoS is linked to Channeling Magic; that would entirely overthrow either skill bar. Communing, Restoration Magic or Spawning Power elites are required (unless I want to replace those heroes entirely with something else). I cannot utilize a SoLS healer with three Necros already in the team, unless I use Mercenary Heroes, which I don’t really want to, unless absolutely necessary (and it is not).
 * On the Monk, Extinguish is indeed needed primarily to remove Burning; I have yet to test a bar with another Condition removal skill—putting it on a Necro might also help, as you pointed out. I think Watchful Healing should stay, as it is pretty much the only Enchantment around and thus will most likely be removed and end prematurely; of course there might be better solutions (I will test Healing Breeze). I have also considered removing Unyielding Aura completely, because the latest tests ended with no deaths at all.
 * I agree with some ideas regarding the Necros, Bone Minions will do for the minion masters. The wells, however, will stay, they are just the perfect skills for this mission. Almost all foes will at some point stand in one (or two) and there are SO MANY corpses … Two minion masters are required for a true Splitway, so I cannot change that. During the downtimes, the minions get Death Nova upon them and when the next spawn is engaged they almost die instantly, spreading Poison all over the place. It just fits perfectly. Also, I noticed that, for Discord to be used effectively, Necro 1 was missing a Hex. I fixed that with Putrid Bile, but maybe I can find a better one (preferably some AoE). Vile Miasma has been removed. I intend to make the Accursed variant the main build for the third Necro anyway; it just performs way better and with Rigor Mortis, the Destroyers of Deed now die much faster.
 * A melee hero is required in my opinion. They simply can’t hold one side with only backline support and a few minions or spirits—but I am willing to test something else. Ideas for a replacement? A second player (another DPS) would, of course, be the best solution (but that’s not what this build is for). I tested a Sin before that; just dies too unpredictably. With the pending updates, however, I will try that again; the new Ritualists really help a lot.
 * Regarding the player skill bar … This build can solo four Compassions, just because of the protective skills, therefore allowing you to hold the left side during the second and fourth waves with minimal hero support, if not alone, leaving the rest to hold the right side. Of course, any DPS will do, as pointed out in the description. Use what works for you. Personally I like Death’s Charge, especially during the third and fifth waves. In any case, I tested many PvE skills and, believe it or not, they die quickly enough without one. In the final version, however, Shadow Refuge and Death’s Charge will be made optional anyway, along with some PvE skills that could be useful, such as a Norn shout or some Deldrimor skills, specifically useful against destroyers. Generally, though, a build that is not utilizing PvE skills is more versatile and available to a broader player base, making this the prefered choice. Also, Critical Defenses is one of the best defenses around for a Critical Sin, so why remove it?
 * Also, I’d like you to understand that this build is in no way meant to complete the mission AFK—it is meant to achieve a reasonable score, meaning the build is intended to kill foes quickly and protect the Dwarven allies as well. It is also not meant for farming Destroyer Cores or any such crap.
 * Update pending.

You're all bad
I can solo the entire mission. 19:23, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, if you say so. How? --Hatch 20:41, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Depends, do you want to risk getting banned? [[Image:They.jpg|36px|link=User:They]] 22:18, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Also, splitway isn't all that great, you run more risk for barely saving any time. [[Image:They.jpg|36px|link=User:They]] 04:35, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, unless you have anything to contribute in order to strengthen this build in regard to its intended purpose… This sort of contribution does not help. --Hatch 15:58, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
 * It's constructive criticism (mostly), you can't improve a build if there are already better build available.-- Relyk 22:30, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Well then point me to it, please give me something I can reproduce. --Hatch 23:31, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Check these out. [[Image:They.jpg|36px|link=User:They]] 23:50, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
 * At last. Thanks, will do. Did you try those yourself? If so, what was your score? --Hatch 23:55, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't do glint's challenge. Those builds are nearly unstoppable in general though (even in high end pve), so I doubt you'll have major issues. Camp the dragon for the first wave then the rest is easy. [[Image:They.jpg|36px|link=User:They]] 00:39, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
 * What? I was referring to Build:Team - 7 Hero AFK Glint's Challenge Farm. Builds designed to afk glints will work the most effective there.-- Relyk 01:36, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Those IV nukers blow cocks. [[Image:They.jpg|36px|link=User:They]] 03:48, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

(reset indent) I made a few tests with the Glint’s Heroway build. It works as intended, really impressive. In several runs, however, I was unable to even once reach 2,000 points. Of course, if you just flag your heroes on the ledge and leave it be, the dwarves won’t survive. In other words, if all you want is farm cores/cloths, go with that build. But, let me say this again (you seem to have missed it): I want to achieve the best possible score with heroes only, not just complete the mission. I wouldn’t bother posting a build for just completing the mission, as it is way too easy (and the Heroway—and many, many other builds, even Henchmen—work for that purpose). Now, I am running a few more tests (some great inspiration in those builds, thank you for pointing them out!) and will post an update sometime next week. The current best is 2,254 points (that is with the build I posted plus some minor changes according to the above comments—still losing too many Dwarves during waves four and five, though, and there are some issues with the first wave taking way too long on some occasions). I have seen solo players achieve scores above 2,300, so I know there is room for improvement. --Hatch 15:24, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

July 1st snapshot notes (third draft)
In this latest version of the build, I used a different approach and completely replaced many heroes. Here are some considerations.
 * No more minions and wells. Even though there are so many corpses, the minions were in fact slowing things down on the right side, as they were engaging the Destroyers just outside aggro range of the flagged heroes on some occasions. On the left side, they were not required. Their place on either side is taken by a Mesmer. The anti-melee hero on the right will help dispatching the large waves of melee Destroyers and also the dangerous ranger attacks (now effectively countering Dazed and skill shutdown), while the anti-caster on the left is really helpful during the wave five (and basically always, as there are many casters).
 * Using an anti-caster (instead of an anti-melee Mesmer) on the left leaves the player pretty much alone to deal with the melee Destroyers, therefore I added the protective skills back in (after I tested some PvE skills—to no useful effect btw; Finish Him was nice, but cost too much energy). Shadow stepping is also still very helpful as it will relieve the backline and allows quick killing on the catwalks.
 * Shroud of Distress is a viable option as well; use together with Blinding Powder and waves two and four should pose no problem. An dagger of enchanting let’s you maintain the shroud. --Hatch 14:03, 2 July 2012 (UTC)


 * No monk. The SoLS healer is much sturdier; and the spirits on the right just work fine. Even with a full Survivor/Vigor set the Monk died far too often during waves two and four. One targeted condition removal is also enough, given enough defense on the player’s skill bar. Preservation surely is an unusual choice, but it heals the dwarves, making it a very helpful skill.
 * The Curses Nuker is experimental at best. I used it to allow other heroes to use Discord, but since there is no Discord on any skill bar any more, it could certainly use an update. Especially Shivers of Dread is somewhat hurting energy management.
 * New flagging in wave five. I couldn’t move any hero off the right side without endangering them, and none of the two on the right were able to handle the Lives alone, so the left side must be defended from within the lair. Maybe a new Curses Nuker will allow me to remove one hero from the right side. Alternatively, a true Splitway approach might work as well, but I haven’t tested that yet.
 * Just tested the splitway rotation in wave five. Taking hero 3 with you while engaging the first two left spawns and then the first two right spawns will make this a viable possibility. The other heroes will defend the dragon. There are issues with some Destroyers of Lives through, as some will occasionally spawn out of aggro range. Further testing required. --Hatch 13:59, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

--Hatch 13:59, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Melee hero. The Dagger Spammer will indeed deal much more damage (and could potentially carry a second stance removal—but it doesn’t seem to be necessary). It will effectively draw aggro on the right side and now has a strong backline to support it. I am happy to report no deaths on the Sin (except when I tried to use it for the Destroyers of Live) ;-)
 * New Ritualists. I finally managed to grab some nice working elites and, as expected, they work extremely well, just as they would in many of the other builds suggested above. Because the casters will rarely get past the Sin, the Rt works with Boon of Creation. Spirit Siphon works well for the SoS Rt as the only energy management.