Archive talk:Team - 7 Hero Dual Elementalist

I feel like the prot necromancer a little much.. replace with a Jagged MM with protective spirit? -Gkoogz 22:34, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Mind Blast won't work on a hero in PvE &mdash; Skakid  Rally- kupo! 01:16, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually it really does, they use it surprisingly well. Maybe they didn't before the exhaustion was lowered to 5, but I've been using Mind Burn since they updated it and the hero does use it frequently enough to always have ~20% of their bar gray during a battle. -Gkoogz 05:04, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Mind Blast != Mind Burn. Random Weird Guy 13:30, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Pretty obvious that Skakid meant Mind Burn not Mind Blast, refering to the fact that heros exhaust themselves into oblivion, yes? PewPew   QQ   13:34, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Dual IV on the necros seems pretty strong, Prot bar seems like it should be closer to this: Build:N/any Icy Veins Hero 2 Copies of flesh, plus 2 of Ressurection chant (huehuehue) is overkill, Never Give Up is kind of awful, and as it's a 7H build, open player bar with notes to bring damage + DW seems reasonable? (which you could even take on the Illusion Mes I guess.) PewPew   QQ   13:20, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Just used this build to clear ravens point HM only wiped 2 times although it seems to kill stuff very slowly Blueblob0 17:20, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Mind Burn
Turn it into SF and throw up Paragon with They're on Fire or something like this. Triss 16:25, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Yea, i'm not favoring Mind Burn in this, since hero usually uses it and builds up too much exhaustion. Dacookiemaster 22:18, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
 * It's only 5... You could spam Mind Burn on recharge and be fine. Vincent Evan [Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 22:19, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Mind burn sucks in hm...especially in elite areas (you will never trigger the conditional dmg/burning against casters).Illoyon 22:48, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Srsly?
These builds do not seem optimal. I suggest this:



Not for destroyers and against other fire resistant foes. The first Star Burst elementalist could be any frontliner, although Stone Sheath and the ST rit make a caster frontline possible. Sjan talk  20:50, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Star Burst ele is bad-- Relyk 17:59, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
 * For pugs it is, but maybe it just my playstyle or something. Not waiting to get stuff balled, just to step in when it already balled is faster and more interesting. Also the damage is by far better then EA/SF nukers. So in certain area's if i can tank it is not bad. BTW Star Burster can be any proffesion. Sjan talk  20:28, 21 January 2012 (UTC)



Ok, I've been altering this build setup a little since it was a little fragile, and these 7 heroes are basically invincible. If the player wants to run a melee, then throw Splinter Weapon onto the channeling rit. But otherwise, this is a really good setup. I especially like the stone sheath ele, the hero actually uses it really well. gkoogz
 * Agreed on the Stone Sheath Hero it's a very good option for frontliners if you need a resto, better then the necro imo. Sjan talk  20:35, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Rewrite
After testing over the last few days I decided to re-write this. I'm still not entirely convinced that the SoLS healer is going to good use, hence the million optionals below it, I've taken to running Ravenous Gaze and Blood Ritual myself but I'm still not sure if it'd be better off with a different elite.

I tested the IV nuker with and without the extra resto, the build is much more stable with the extra healing, I found fairly often that the SolS hero just couldn't keep up with damage coming from extra sources, and the extra resto really helps remedy that, at the cost of Splinter/AR. The Mind Burn hero uses it surprisingly well, I've never seen more than 1/3 of the bar exhausted, even with the odd micro.

I took it through HM Slaver's to see how it fared, did the whole thing in one visit, even though I forgot to change a ton of things. (I forgot Panic, Never Surrender, Putrid Explosion. Also fire eles in Forgewright HM, gud joke :<) I did take Diversion to fuck Spirit Rift on Duncan though. hue. Was easy, ate up some DP on Forgewrights because I was lazy with microing ST and managed to over-agro a few times. Other than that it was smooth sailing.

Oh, and I tested the listed Water builds, I wanted to run double Shatterstone, but wasn't sure whether the heros would cast over each other and fuck each other over. (If anyone knows otherwise that'd be cool.) Ice Spikes/Rust seemed to do well though. Not to the same standard as the Fire skills, but that's to be expected I guess; handy that all of the foes so resistant to Fire damage are weak to Cold. It's not like it's many areas where you need to switch it out anyway; Forgewright, Destroyer dungeons, the odd NF mission.

So yeah, thoughts? PewPew  QQ   18:42, 25 January 2012 (UTC)


 * needs more sf and less fireball.Illoyon 20:08, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Mind Burn fuels SF for longer (without wasting a cast just to initiate burning), does more damage and the smaller range is easily compensated for by IV nukes and (semi-)balling (Even just through the use of EVaS or a pet). I used Fireball because the 3s of burning and extra ~10 damage (with CA) from Rodgort's wasn't worth the extra energy cost (and time spent casting, but lol 1/2s). The range is the same argument as for Mind Burn. I'd probably agree replacing it with Liquid Flame on the SF hero though, seeing as the majority of the time it should be spamming SF, so the recharge isn't all that important.  PewPew   QQ   00:49, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Dual Water at the bottom
It would need microing...  Shadow  Talk  16:33, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd have thought the recharge on shatterstone would be enough to warrant it. It was originally 1 Shatterstone, 1 WT. Pretty much the only water alternative unless running melee, then a MoI could work. PewPew   QQ   16:38, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

hhmmm
Surely this team set up is pretty much the same as every other hero build or is just a collection of great vetted builds with a different dmg-line? SoLS healer, Inept mesmer, Dom mesmer, AoTL nuker/ST rit, IV nerco, 2 other bars (either 2 more mesmers, eles, rits or the like) Would probably be worth just setting up a generic 7 hero team build and leaving 2 slots optional for more things. Edeth 13:01, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Would this be better then the IV Resto?
[build prof=E/Rt ear=11+1 ene=7+1+1 res=11][Stone Sheath][Churning Earth][Glyph of Lesser Energy][Mend Body and Soul][Spirit Light][Protective Was Kaolai][Aura of Restoration][Earth Attunement][/build]

I think so, but most people do not like the SS resto. Sjan talk  15:21, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
 * IV's main job is cleanup, SS is extra damage which mostly un-needed, and tries to fufill a role which is already contained in the other builds. Pew   Pew   21:08, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
 * It does the resto job worse than the IV as it has worse energy management (even though it devotes 3 skills to that). It's support damage is also lower. SS is redundant defense (SYG and the prots make an armor-buffing elite pointless). Dropping a minimal spec enfeebling blood onto an existing necro will get the only feature of the elite not already present (and it's not needed). Also, Shared Burden negates Churning Earth's knockdowns. You can't just drop that build in place of the IV unless you're going to change a bunch of other builds and it doesn't seem to be worth it. -- Toraen   confer  21:21, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Caster heroes like to run when they are attack, that moment SYG becomes pointles. Although SS can be stripped it's a decent buff for melee players. Inept for Shared is a minor change, never noticed real energy problems too. Maybe with QZ or enviromental effects. Sjan talk  21:29, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
 * SS is useless when you have an ST ritualist.-- Relyk 22:00, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree - may be nice for melee players, but I run something very similar with my casters and no melee... My lines are usually 2 Rt, 2 Me, 2 Ne, 1 optional damage (Damage Ele, Spiteful Necro, third Rt, etc), 1 additional caster (third Rt, Me, or first/second ele spamming mostly PvE skills). The core builds are very close to what I use - tack on the damage build of your choice. --Falseprophet 17:27, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Archival
I propose archival. This comp borrows backline elements of a great rating team, then substitutes the midline for inferior dps and control. While viable, this shouldn’t be real recommendable. Juniper real (talk) 06:49, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Done. --Krschkr (talk) 00:22, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Obviously late to the discussion, but I think it might be worth reviving this comp. While a full Mesmer midline is preferable, that requires mercenaries. There are a lack of 7 hero comps for melee players without requiring access to Zei Ri/mercenaries simply due to the lack of mesmer heroes. With 2 Me, 2 Rt, 1 Ne, there are two open slots. Perhaps a dual elementalist midline is a viable alternative for players who prefer to play without minions. So I would suggest rebranding this to a composition for a melee player, and updating the bars accordingly:


 * The two optional elementalist bars could either remain as fire elementalists, or run as air elementalists (which I have found to be preferable in my experience). Something like:


 * Or, maybe one Invoke, one Blinding Surge, and two domination Mesmers? --Xanshiz (talk) 01:20, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Invoke with chain lightning? I guess you meant thunderclap over invoke or something other than chain lightning?
 * If it's specifically for a melee player I'd also try gust and stone sheath builds. The advantage of having an earth elementalist would be to have some nice anti-physical (and anti-melee in particular) skills in the team that would allow running two energy surge mesmers in more areas without running into large risks. Bonus advantage of having dual shatter hex! --Krschkr (talk) 01:28, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Chain Lightning was a typo, I was copying the template from Build:E/any_Air_Magic_Hero and forgot to drop it. But yea, the exact bars on the elementalists are very flexible, especially due to BiP. The emphasis is that the dual elementalist midline composition might make sense even in the mesmer meta due to the restrictions on hero professions, particularly for melees. --Xanshiz (talk) 01:39, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, no doubt about that. I'm just not sure that taking defensive mesmers and offensive elementalists means setting the right priorities given that mesmers are so much better at providing offense and much less suspectible to shutdown, energy denial, armour ratings and enchantment removal. If defense provided by elementalists allows to run offensive mesmers (and get that second shatter hex, mind you!) without losing that much elementalist damage we'd fare better with things like gust/stone sheath than invoke lightning. Let's also keep the option of 1x elementalist + 1x smiter in mind. Unless testing shows that this option blows we shouldn't rule it out as a minionless option. --Krschkr (talk) 01:50, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I agree with running offensive domination mesmers instead of Panic + Ineptitude. Perhaps 2x Esurge, 1x BSurge, and one optional elementalist. Perhaps stone sheath as you suggest, although I don't have enough experience running earth elementalists to comment on that yet. I've had poor experiences with dedicated smiters since RoJ is low radius, high CD, and causes scatter. And the rest of the smiting bar is pretty mediocre (except SoH). Maybe a variant could be to replace the optional elementalist with a bone fiend MM? This idea would certainly shift from the original "Dual Elementalist" name, but might be worth trying. --Xanshiz (talk) 02:07, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
 * If allowing corpse usage we have to watch out for conflicts (due to similarity) with or improvements upon Build:Team - 7 Hero Dual Mesmer Discord. I haven't played with earth elementalists much so far, but the results weren't too bad. While a well-placed stone sheath doesn't save displacement charges it makes the target very robust (especially combined with weakened melees) and increases survivability a lot, both of the affected heroes and shelter. Shockwave as a dedicated anti-melee skill requires a bit more testing, it doesn't seem to be used badly beyond repair, although it'll probably not be preferable over a different elite skill with ward against melee for dedicated anti-melee. The magnetic skills can be used for a bit of extra blocks and to actually fill the bar. So much testing to be done... :D
 * My tests with blinding surge were quite disappointing in terms of blinding spread/targetting. I found blinding surge to be very unreliable as a defensive skill. It only works if you already target attacking, balling physicals, in which case they'll be dead in a few seconds anyway. Gust gives a great speed boost and knocks a few targets down, so as we definitely have a melee player it might be a good mix between utility, damage and defense. It's definitely worth testing. --Krschkr (talk) 02:18, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
 * In effort to avoid conflicts, I've moved the corpse discussion to the dual mesmer discord page. I'm not sure I want my elementalist heroes running into the frontline to cast shockwave. Blinding surge spreads blind regardless of whether the target was attacking, it's only the bonus damage that requires the target to be attacking. So compared to, say, an ineptitude, I found the damage to be considerably worse, but the actual spread of blind was comparable. I haven't experimented with gust, but I think two of (gust, thunderclap, blinding surge) along with 2x Esurge might be decent. --Xanshiz (talk) 03:11, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
 * You're right about blinding surge's blind condition, my bad. That raises the question why my results with it were so bad... maybe because of the targetting issues and in case of the "BiP Support" tests restoration magic? Oh, and I haven't seen heroes move up for shockwave so far. They only use it when melees get into their range, making it a defensive anti-melee skill if the hero uses caster weaponry. Against which foes did you observe this? If that happens shockwave is pretty much out of the question as an elite for earth elementalists. --Krschkr (talk) 03:22, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Heroes will run up to cast shockwave. You can try it on the dummies in Isle of the Nameless.

I ran into similar issues with the BSurge from BiP Support. I found that the abundance of low CD spells from running Resto resulted in a significantly reduced cast frequency of blinding surge. Shouts obviously don't interfere with casting, so I found more success with command secondary. In that case, I would propose a midline as follows:

--Xanshiz (talk) 04:35, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Almost looks like the stuff I ran on my ranger before I bought mercenaries and stopped using bad player professions as much. I still don't get why there should be a need for such an abundance of healing. Anyway, few things that catch my attention:


 * Smiting on communing prot vs. support ritualist.
 * Restoration magic vs. protection prayers on support ritualist.
 * "We Shall Return!" never convinced me that much.
 * Both mesmers are down to 7 skills due to flesh. I'd rather try to transfer one flesh to either of the ritualists, in which case of course the support one would be less risky.
 * Are you certain that arc lightning is generally preferable over lightning strike? For it to be worth using it has to hit all possible three targets. The longer casting time and mediocre recharge makes it quite meh in my opinion. Lightning strike should at least be listed as an alternative for prophecies/boss foes.
 * Thunderclap elementalist looks overly energy extensive. Might be better to give it shell shock and gust. (I like gust, if you hadn't noticed before.)
 * We could probably make a trial page for the new dual elementalist setup and shift our discussions and edits to over there. I don't think reviving the old page would give any benefit, given the large-scale change in focus and concrete builds. --Krschkr (talk) 12:42, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I agree with most of your points. The only disagreement is on the Resto versus protection prayers on the support ritualist. I personally have had consistently more success with dual Resto setups compared to one Resto and one Prot. I found that heros' use of protection prayers spells leaves much to be desired, and with the ST already doing most of the protting, the additional prots become less important. This is especially true of Prot skills such as protective spirit and aegis, which are ordinarily quite good but far, far less useful when coupled with an ST. The loss of these spells in turn makes prots in general less desirable.
 * A side note (and contradictory to most of what I said), but in backlines with one BiP healer and one Rt prot, have you experimented with swapping the roles and running a BiP prot and an Rt resto? This would have three advantages. First, the Rt primary could rune restoration. Second, the midline would enjoy the benefits of a longer BiP (due to enchantment duration mod). Third, the SoS would be less energy stressed since spirit bond is expensive and better funded with soul reaping. One downside is that SoS bar would be very crowded since there are four must-take Resto skills and only two must-take prots.
 * Perhaps making a trial page might be a good idea. It also depends on the direction Dual Mesmer Discord takes, as both that and this team are aimed at a "non-mercenary melee comp with 16 channeling splinter" so they might have some functional overlap to the point that only one is worth preserving (probably the one with the mm). This is particularly true if dual mesmer discord ends up running an elementalist, in which case it would only differ from this by one bar. --Xanshiz (talk) 16:41, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Spirit bond and shield of absorption help a great deal against one target being focused by multiple foes, which is one of the weaknesses of a communing prot. We aren't talking about aegis and protective spirit on a splinter weapon hero because we wouldn't pick those skills anyway due to better alternatives for the few skill slots we have available for protection prayers on this hero. In the end, both things are viable and have their respective strengths and weaknesses. Additional healing will fare better against degeneration, health drain and other ways to attack a character's health pool without being stopped by spirit bond/shield of absorption. Those two spells on the other hand will keep targets alive that would die due to damage compression without protection prayers, using healing instead. We could simply put both on the page (it's just a two skills difference in the end, isn't it?), explain the strengths and weaknesses and let people pick what they consider more useful.
 * I have few experience with BiP prots. The results weren't great, but that might've been coincidence. Eric used one in one of his DoA HM runs, but that was in a 4 hero backline. --Krschkr (talk) 01:28, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
 * has been created. --Krschkr (talk) 01:39, 21 December 2019 (UTC)