Archive talk:Team - Racway/Archive 2

Same? Racthoh 16:54, 20 May 2008 (EDT)


 * I would personally take Spear of Lightning > Swift Javelin. Just maybe put Swift in Variants for areas with heavy blocks. --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  07:30, 22 May 2008 (EDT)


 * Orders, though. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 10:30, 22 May 2008 (EDT)

What is the advantage of using D/N over N/D or N/Any? Zealot 11:44, 22 May 2008 (EDT)


 * Well, given that six of the skills, 97 of the attribute points, the headpiece, and the rune are all devoted to healing and energy management... -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 12:13, 22 May 2008 (EDT)


 * Well, I saw the Orders thing, but the damage and recharge is lower. For areas with blockers, I would take Javelin, but otherwise I'd take SoL. --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  16:09, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * You don't really get much from using Spear of Lightning; just 6 extra damage+25% armor penetration (which isn't significant in Hard Mode), which is outclassed even by Swift Javelin (because of OoP, of course). Blazing Spear would be fine in place of Swift Javelin (or Vicious Attack, as noted). Spear of Fury would have been one of the best choices, but it isn't worth the loss of one of your other PvE skills. Also, wurs the critical hit for Vicious Attack? The only reliable Deep Wound you've got is Merciless Spear on your Motigon. -Mike 16:49, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Deep Wound is not needed in PvE, especially when stuff is dying as fast as Vicious Attack can recharge. Merciless Spear is pretty much there in case that extra 100 damage is needed to break a mob; heroes from my experience are quite good with it to boot. If that doesn't work, Stunning Strike will. Pretty much the only reason Swift Javelin and Vicious Attack are on the player's bar is because they are the two fastest recharging non-elemental non-pve 5 energy spear attacks. With all the energy SY returns, mash away.
 * That bar has a strict focus on keeping SY up as much as possible. No other adrenaline skills, no chants, nothing to stop you from attacking and building adrenaline. The exception to this is EBSHonor. Personally I only cast the ward when Dark Fury is up; it allows me to maintain SY without significant downtime. The bar always functions the same way no matter the circumstance provided you are kept clean of hexes/blind/change targets when blocking. As an example if GftE! was on the bar in place of Swift Javelin to get that Deep Wound, and the party was starting to break the last thing I want to do is take a strike of adrenaline away from SY. Energy on the monk(s) in those situations has probably gotten tight; I don't want to make things harder on the healer by dropping SY even for a second if it can be avoided. As such with the two attack skills I can continue to pump out damage in the same manner despite the party's condition, compared to GftE! + Vicious Attack where GftE! only works against your odds of survival. It becomes a burden in a situation that matters.
 * Overall that is the purpose of all the builds, and why there are the variants for every situation. Powering SY and maintaining it as much as humanly possible gives you the greatest chance of survival. Miss hexes, reduce attack speed hexes, degen hexes, AKA damage that SY can't prevent, hex variant keeps you clean. Blind (no SY), degen conditions (SY doesn't help), you have Song of Purification. Multiple healers that you can't break with damage alone, Stunning Strike to the rescue. It is a strong hero combination that gives you fallbacks and preventatives in the situations that will actually pose a threat to the party's survival. Racthoh 18:03, 22 May 2008 (EDT)


 * You forgot to mention that Spear of Fury is bad. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 20:13, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * If you don't need Swift Javelin's unblockable, the +damage is greater. But that only applies if you're not taking EBS. -Shen 20:32, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * D/N's party healing is the main advantage. If you want to take a necro for orders, it'll be using Splinter Weapon and IV or something. -Shen 20:36, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Armond, I understand your point about avoiding downtime, but when Dark Fury is up, you're able to spam Blazing Spear, "GftE!" and "SY!" without downtime (well, I've got 5 seconds of "SY!"). And if things start to look bad, it's as easy as not using the other adrenal skills or skills with activations (except EBSoH). -Mike 21:21, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * If you don't have to worry about downtime, then of course there's no problem. If things start to look bad, being able to hit for more is better than having useless slots. -Shen 21:26, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Downtime? I don't care about downtime. I can maintain it with blazing spear (a better skill than vicious attack imo, but it may just as easily have been that I was too lazy to get it on my gon) spam with a 4 second sy, but then I don't use ward. I just don't like wasting a PvE skill on Spear of Fury because the damage doesn't make up for the PvE skill slot loss and the conditional adrenaline gain is useless when you're charging SY in two hits anyway. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 21:43, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * The thing with Spear of Fury was that it could deal 30+ damage (with high enough ranks), more than most Spear Attacks, has a 1 second activation, and could be used after Anthem of Weariness to make up for the downtime, but you will get more from EBSoH. -Mike 07:02, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Also, Spear of Fury doesn't need to hit to give the adrenaline gain, so even against mobs that block, you're able to fully recharge SY at least every 8 seconds, if all your attacks are blocked, unlike Swift Javelin. ScythXIII 09:23, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
 * If things are blocking, change targets. There's no excuse for not charging SY every two hits. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 10:36, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
 * When fighting raptors in GWEN, they all seem to be blocking ._. ... ScythXIII 11:47, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Ctrl-spacebar. Shit dies when seven spears get chucked at it. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 11:48, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Not saying that things aren't dieing, just that the blocks prevent adrenaline gain = no SY. Killing it would still mean no SY <_< ... ScythXIII 11:51, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
 * ...Because it really matters if you've got SY up if they're dead? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 11:57, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
 * True...ScythXIII 12:07, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Mirror of Disenchantment for Raptors, or necromancers over paragons. Racthoh 15:41, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Possible variant for block heavy areas (stances/enchantments)? ScythXIII 18:21, 24 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Wee.. correct indent ScythXIII 18:22, 24 May 2008 (EDT)

Commandgon vs. Motigon + Imbagon
If Imbagon is Imbalanced and Paragon, shortened, and Motigon, Motivation and Paragon, shortened, why is Commandgon, Command and paragon, with just Paragon being shortened? Yes, the names are irrelevant, but something like "Commagon" or "Commgon" would be nice... just to make thing consistent (Abbreviation + gon). Yes, I was bored enough to think about it... ScythXIII 19:48, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Because those sound just as dumb. IMA KILL YOU WITH MY COMMAS or IMA KILL YOU WITH MY COMMUNICATION --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] Mafaraxas 20:11, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
 * That's dirty. >.> Besides, there are different ways of looking at it; each of them have 3 syllables. -Mike 22:27, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Commagon sounded less awkward (and less laughable) than commandagon did. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 00:05, 24 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Commandogon--[[Image:Relyk Purifying Veil Sig.jpg|19px]]R ELYK   ʞlɐʇ ʎɯ  21:24, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Did someone say Commando? ــмıкε  нaшк  21:31, 21 July 2008 (EDT)

Focussed + "FGJ!"
Just an observation from having used this build myself:

Focussed anger lasts for 45 seconds with a 60 second recharge, FGJ lasts for 20 seconds with a 45 second recharge. Point is this, on entering a battle, use FGJ just before focussed anger, you get extra adrenaline gain at the start for faster SY, and by the time focussed anger has run out, FGJ is recharged, allowing you to carry on with the normal chain.

Just to clarify why I bothered to post what most people have already worked out, a guy in my alliance insisted on waiting for FGJ to expire instead of triggering focussed as soon as it recharged because "pvx said not to let them overlap". Please make the instructions either clearer or non-existant, because there are a lot of idiots playing the game, and some of us get the joy of monking for them...


 * It doesn't matter, but having them overlap does absolutely nothing (because the adrenaline gain is capped at +100%) and using them both at the beginning of a fight does nothing but waste your energy (which is probably already low because you should have just used aggressive refrain). -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 21:34, 27 May 2008 (EDT)


 * Eh, just cast AR when you load the area and maintain with TNTF, a hero's Anthem of Flame, or take "Fall Back!" instead of EBSoH/FGJ and alternate that with TNTF (for more breathing room instead of TNTF alone). --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] Mafaraxas 21:43, 27 May 2008 (EDT)


 * Fall Back is bad, TNTF costs a chunk of energy, anthems take time out of running. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 22:23, 27 May 2008 (EDT)


 * Having to spend 25 energy and 2 seconds at the beginning of every battle is worse, in my opinion. Fall Back isn't good if you need the constant double-adrenaline, but it naturally complements AR in that it refreshes it itself and gets your group between battles quicker, meaning the heroes refreshing your AR for you.  Chaining TNTF and Fall Back isn't as bad as you make it to because of Leadership. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] Mafaraxas  02:06, 28 May 2008 (EDT)


 * Maintaining AR with TNTF is much mor easier and energy efficient than casting AR at the start of every battle, not to mention if you're getting the full +6 energy from leadership, you'll still be gaining energy (-15e + 6e + 10e = 1e) ScythXIII 10:59, 28 May 2008 (EDT)

Having Focused + "FGJ" on the same bar seems wasteful. If FA's 15sec downtime is causing probs, your team must be no good. P A R A S I T I C 18:05, 14 June 2008 (EDT)
 * ur right, it seems much more efficient to run an imbagon in a team designed to handle time without one - i.e. a team with more defense than you really need - than to use a slot on "fgj". now that that's out of the way, the only thing left is to figure out what to put in that slot that we worked so hard to open up. 71.230.145.170 20:55, 20 November 2008 (EST)

Hexbreaker Aria
Is going to be going to be mostly useless due to only 2-3 characters having spells. I suggest that its removed, it basically just lowers that Para's dps. &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 23:50, 27 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Frees up the spell casters that do have hex removal to remove them from others, instead of themselves. ScythXIII

10:55, 28 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Since when does anyone else need their hexes removed? (If hexes are serious enough that the melee characters actually need theirs removed and the monk can't keep up, you should be running the hex-heavy build.) -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 17:16, 1 June 2008 (EDT)

Also with the hex heavy setup Empathic is a spell therefore two hexes and a condition can be removed from that para, the Orders derv is a spell machine, and EBoH is also a spell therefore removes a hex.(Mr Pink57 17:05, 1 June 2008 (EDT))

Imbagon Attributes
The imbagon has 8 command but no command skills. Shouldn't he take those points and raise both leadership and spear mastery? Deezee 00:05, 15 June 2008 (EDT)
 * The imbagon has 8+1 command in order to use a shield. Kabu To 00:33, 15 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Just to elaborate a little, leadership won't improve the build much since the energy is already fine, and a shield is pretty important when you're cruising around with 60 AL. Kabu To 00:43, 15 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Actually, paragons have a base of 80 AL, and you should always have Centurion's insigs for 90. Even without an insane RC bot, you ought to be able to guarantee yourself about 100 AL at any point in time - which is about half as much as the rest of your team, making you the squishiest member of the party. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 01:07, 15 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Ah, I forgot about Centurion's. Kabu To 04:14, 15 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Plus shield, plus shield inscription... Paragons are pretty nuts. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 12:10, 16 June 2008 (EDT)

Derwish
In 8 man areas I had the problem that the Derwish often got aggro and got killed. So I changed my Derwish from wind- to earth prayers and replaced Watchful Invention, Mystic Healing, Dwayna's Touch and Vow of Piety with Aura of Thorns, Mystic Regeneration, Vital Boon and Signet of Pious Light. It works quite well. The advantages are he stays in the backline, Aura of Thorns help him to escape melees and still excellent selfheal. Partyheal is NOT that good anymore. :(
 * Party-wide healing is still very important, and even more so when you haven't any devoted tank (+100 armor=no need for usual tank). Also, make sure they've got a staff, and not some caster weapon, because apparently they won't use it properly without one (see Archive:D/N Arcane Orders Dervish.) ــмıкε  нaшк  17:37, 30 June 2008 (EDT)
 * The AI is incredibly stupid and chooses most of its actions from its weapon, it seems. For example, AI mesmers won't use backfire if you switch to your shield/spear set - it's pretty awesome to sit there as an assassacaster and tank Empathy, Clumsiness, etc, because you're wielding a spear. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 20:20, 1 July 2008 (EDT)

Imbagon
Could the Imbagon be replaced with another Save Yourself spammer? Such as for non para primaries?--Cursed Condemner 22:22, 11 July 2008 (EDT)


 * Conceivably, but then you're missing out on TNTF. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 09:13, 12 July 2008 (EDT)

Other characters
What do you suggest for people without paragons or that have paras, but not as their main? Rangers can use IH + SY, dervishes SY and so on, but what for example Monk build I can run? Bonder, SY dragon slash (p) or something like LoD hybrid? &mdash; Abedeus   10:59, 13 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Roll a para, or group with one. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 12:54, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

"paraway"
This is not paraway, it is not all paragons. Paraway is 8+paragons working together. end of discussion.--71.67.243.230 02:52, 15 July 2008 (EDT)


 * Er, so? It's close enough. Do keep in mind zergway involved only four or five SS warriors (the "zergers"). -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 11:17, 15 July 2008 (EDT)

Mending Refrain?
Makes a lot of sense in the build ofc, but do heroes use it manually and intelligently, or should it be microed? Also, I've used that orders derv, but I have a very hard time believing it completely replaces a monk, can somebody convince me otherwise? Gabe 22:26, 20 July 2008 (EDT)
 * They use it pretty well themselves, but I've microed it upon entering an area so I could have it on my whole party. This was before the 15 second duration, however. ــмıкε  нaшк  00:33, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Yeah, that may be problematic. Also, if mending isn't good why not replace it? Im not sure with what though. And wat about this derv healer? Does it, in fact, heal better/equally as a monk? Gabe 17:14, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Derv healer? I can only see an orders derv, and don't expect it to heal u much tbh as it constantly sacs and needs heals itself.-- Sazzy  18:07, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Oh I'm sorry, I meant the orders dervish. It explicitly says on the build page that it replaces a monk, I'd like to know if that is true, because I'm doubting it. Gabe 18:10, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
 * It and the imbagon that you should be running can replace a monk in most situations, yes. -- Mafaraxas ( talk ) 18:30, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Fair enough, I haven't even tested this build yet. But anything with imbagon is win. So, what about mending? Yes or no? Gabe 18:35, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Well, it's not as good as it was after the many nerfs, but it'll still work fine as long as you have another energy-based shout ("Charge!"/"Fall Back!" or something useless like "We Shall Return!"/"They're on Fire!" that don't need attribute investment) somewhere in the party to alternate with TNTF outside of battle so that it's maintainable. The other option for that slot is Aria of Restoration/Ballad of Restoration, depending on the team and the area. -- Mafaraxas  ( talk ) 18:52, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Ya, just take some extra Shouts/Chants (or one with a shorter recharge) or micro your heroes' Shouts/Chants, but I probably wouldn't bother with that myself. XD ــмıкε  нaшк  18:54, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Mending lost a single pip of regen from the nerfs. That's... not very fail.
 * Honestly, I keep mending on my heroes because I can't find anything better to put on instead. It's not like it'll really make a difference, though - I've vanquished areas with mending disabled. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 09:01, 20 August 2008 (EDT)
 * How about Finale of Restoration instead? With the number of shouts ending, I think it might outheal Mending Refrain easily (and is what I use on my Motigon). Ghostwheel 06:22, 27 November 2008 (EST)

Going off what Gabe was asking about the orders derv, the healing of that derv is, admittedly, lower than that of a healing or prot monk, however unlike a normal team, a team with an imbagon has +100 AL almost all of the time (If the imbagon can do his job worth jack), so the pressure will be greatly reduced, thus there's not really a need for a two monk backline as one monk and the healing the derv packs should be able to cover you, so you're better off bringing a warrior or something to pump out more damage --98.232.76.90 17:44, October 18, 2009 (UTC)

4 man group
Different build.--R ELYK   ʞlɐʇ ʎɯ  19:00, 21 July 2008 (EDT)

Soldier's Fury buff
I found this to work better after the buff with only heroes/henches, since henchmen seem to fail miserably at tanking and SY tends to put all the aggro on you. The Tactics stances let you block a lot more attacks, and SY can still be maintained with Soldier's Fury. You also get a higher IAS and no Cracked Armor. Since you have shouts on you all the time anyway with the other paragons, it's easier to maintain Soldier's Fury than AR. Aequus 10:56, 14 August 2008 (EDT)

Spear Mastery: 10+1+1 Leadership: 11+1 Tactics: 10


 * That build's a little less flexible because you need somewhat higher rank to maintain "SY!" if your Orders Dervish isn't doing his job right (which is common). ــмıкε  нaшк  11:04, 14 August 2008 (EDT)
 * ...What? Since when does Melonni not do her job right? And... do bear in mind that the bottom end duration just got buffed a chunk. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 22:33, 14 August 2008 (EDT)
 * They need to be using a staff, and then they win @ Orders. --71.229 22:59, 14 August 2008 (EDT)
 * No. They sacc like madmens when being pressured, fail to maintain Dark Fury and so on. Overall they perform better than usual with the build, but that's not saying a lot tbh. God  box    06:18, 20 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Huh. I've never noticed a problem, but there's a reason I don't HB. --71.229 06:25, 20 August 2008 (EDT)
 * mine has a casters sword and still wins tbh. And since it's pve, don't flag the orders hero in a mob of foes >.< Then she won't be pressured and do her job well. Not like she needs to stand next to u to cast the order  — şąɀɀƴ  ƿooɧ [[Image:PinkNautical.jpg]] 07:14, 20 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Since when is the orders hero supposed to maintain dark fury? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 08:58, 20 August 2008 (EDT)
 * dark fury is an order too perhaps? (though not having the order name, the way it works is identical to an order) And it would be stupid tbh to have it on the bar if they're not going to maintain it during the fight. Though point being, they do maintain it.  — şąɀɀƴ  ƿooɧ [[Image:PinkNautical.jpg]] 10:16, 20 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Unless they changed the AI since I left, Melonni's horrible at maintaining both Dark Fury and Order of Pain - because she, like a smart hero, cycles through them both, combining the best of both enchantments. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 20:51, 20 August 2008 (EDT)

wow...
I finally mulled over the PvX wiki's version of paraway, and this is flat out terrible. This isn't anywhere near what paraway actually is. This is some random assortment of builds that almost work well together and an Arcane Dervish to give an adrenaline boost and mild healing. There, I've said it, now what?--72.189.85.47 17:52, 15 September 2008 (EDT)


 * If this is PvX wiki's vision of what paraway is, it's no wonder that paragons are so hated and massively underrated in Guild Wars.--72.189.85.47 17:54, 15 September 2008 (EDT)


 * Instead of complaining, give us some suggestions to improve the build. Personally, I would never run more than one Paragon in a team, anyway, especially if I'm playing the Imbagon. ــмıкε  нaшк  18:02, 15 September 2008 (EDT)


 * I wouldn't pay attention to Ikimono if I were anybody reading. The IP above (Ikimono) believes this is bad and that and  are good, which really shows how much he/she knows.


 * Also, just why wouldn't you want more paragons on your team? &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 18:43, 15 September 2008 (EDT)


 * They don't deal that much damage, don't have AoE, and their added support is just mediocre when you've already got an Imbagon. I'd probably take some Incendiary Arrows/Barrage Ranger and a frontliner instead, tbh. ــмıкε  нaшк  18:47, 15 September 2008 (EDT)


 * 1) Paragons deal as much or more damage than warriors in PvE under most circumstances. Ever notice how often melee has to run around to catch their targets? They have to just about every time they switch. You don't have to when you've got a spear.
 * 2) Yeah, no AoE does hurt a little, but things dieing in 2 seconds whenever you ctrl click them makes up for it imo. Makes taking out priority targets much easier.
 * 3) Dealing 19 more damage for everybody's next attack skill is mediocre? Removing 3 conditions from every party member every few seconds is mediocre? Burning multiple targets is mediocre? Imo, the only skills in the build that could possibly be considered mediocre are Mending Refrain, Aria of Zeal and Hexbreaker Aria. Those skills, imo, should be replaced with Ballad of Restoration, Finale of Restoration and "Go for the Eyes!" &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 19:14, 15 September 2008 (EDT)


 * The 1.75 seconds spent activating a Chant could have been used to hit twice as a melee or use Barrage/Volley/Incendiary Arrows, which, because of the faster attack rate and higher +damage for melee or the AoE from the Ranger, you lose a lot more than you think. Tbh, that time spent activating that Chant would be better spent using a Spear Attack + auto-attack because it comes out to pretty much the same amount of damage, anyway. Anthem of Flame is also mediocre if you're all attacking the same target. I also don't run the Orders Dervish anymore, because I'd rather take a N/Rt with Splinter Weapon to go with my Barrager/Incendiary Arrows. ــмıкε  нaшк  19:47, 15 September 2008 (EDT)
 * See comments bellow, And no. Rangers have a much slower attack speed than a spear. Paragons have the highest single target DPS in the game and it's ranged, fyi. Unless you count Wand Spike and that is.-- Ikimono The Ursan Monk [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 21:44, 16 September 2008 (EDT)


 * Furthermore, dispatching 1 target extremely quickly vs getting rid of a few targets slowly and allowing healers to heal, hexes to get cast, and damage to be dealt by that target slows down combat greatly.
 * additionally, the damage given from chants greatly increases party DPS, and you are greatly overstating the damage you think is lost when a paragon is not throwing a spear. How much time is lost when a ranger has to use a preparation, wait for healers to remove conditions, suddenly draw back because of a sudden health loss, and rely on either pets or minions to take the damage for them? How long do they have to sit out and wait for their skills recharge after their pet dies? How often do they have to use healing skills to make sure their pet doesn't die so their skills aren't Ko'ed? Additionally, what happens if suddenly 1 monk is killed? The team has to freak out and normally retreat while they get into a position where they are safe to get the monk back up. That is if the other monk is able to keep up with the healing and the party isn't wiped pre-res. However, with a good paragon team, the team stands sturdy, tanking through the mild damage as 1 party member resurrects the fallen paragon and the rest of the party continues to beat the ever loving crap out of monsters and can function generally, just the same.-- Ikimono The Ursan Monk [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 21:44, 16 September 2008 (EDT)


 * First off, your grossly underestimating the amount a warrior has to move around.
 * Second, in the setup I was describing, the only chants/anthems were Anthem of Envy, Anthem of Flame and Song of Purification. In a team with 6 physicals (which you should be running at minimum), Envy basically adds 114 armor ignoring damage. Hmm, I didn't know warriors or paragons could attack twice and hit that high when mobs have 100+ armor. Incendiary might be able to match it, maybe even go above it a bit. However, its an elite that effectively has a 5 second recharge (activation + recharge). What is your hero going to do while its on recharge? Attack once? Attack twice and raise its effective recharge by another second? Use volley and most likely hit one target thanks to adjacent range being so small? In the same amount of time, a Paragon under AR could attack 3 times. Purification is just awesome, as it removes blind, weakness-- two things that limit physical damage dealers. Anthem of Flame, while not as great, is still pretty good. Between ctrl clicks (and occasionally even while spamming ctrl like crazy-- its annoying when they do that), Heroes tend to switch targets, giving a decent chance to add burning to a few enemies. Not only that, it can be used to keep Aggressive Refrain up between battles and heal allies under Finale of Restoration.


 * Fourth, not running Orders is probably the worst thing you can do, seeing as 6 physicals hitting for +12 almost every attack adds up to a ton of damage. The double adrenalin also adds lots of damage and defense.


 * Lastly, running damage/support on every bar means you only need one hench healer, even in most hard mode areas. This means even more damage. &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 20:47, 15 September 2008 (EDT)
 * ^Wise one is wise.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">The Ursan Monk [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 21:44, 16 September 2008 (EDT)


 * ^ that. I run warriors a lot in PvE (NRA Battle Rage, Dslash/Steelfang/Brawling Headbutt/SY!, Earthshaker), and by the time the fight's halfway done I'm spending more time running than fighting. --71.229 20:52, 15 September 2008 (EDT)


 * (EC)If you're putting together a team of 6 physicals, you probably won't even use Heroes; you'll take imba PvE-only skills like Great Dwarf Weapon. I didn't say I was dropping an Orders altogether, just the Dervish for a N/Rt Orders with a better Elite, Splinter Weapon and Foul Feast, which eliminates the need for Song of Purification. Hexbreaker Aria will also be quite useless if you're taking 6 physicals, anyway, and a better spec into Blood Magic means that you can make up for the loss of those Anthems through OoP. Incendiary Arrows (which is now my favourite Ranger Elite for PvE)+Ignite Arrows+EBSoH+Splinter Weapon kills shit FAST, and the nearby range is quite large. This build sacrifices a lot of damage for defense, but hey, that's what you get with Heroes, and I'm overestimating their AI and treating them like organized groups. >.> ــмıкε  нaшк  21:03, 15 September 2008 (EDT)


 * I run 6 physicals H/H, because its still the best H/H build around.
 * Yeah, Hexbreaker Aria is near useless, thats why I recommend replacing it.
 * I agree that Incendiary is a great elite. Still, just autoattacking at something with orders/EBSoH gets nearly the same without sacrificing what the two paras give (deep wound, daze, condition removal, lots of party healing, removal of stances, etc).
 * I see what you mean on the necro, but aren't you spreading your attributes quite thin with Soul/Blood/Channeling/Resto? And if you don't take resto, you'll need way more healing in your team, cutting damage (keep in mind, this build is mainly for hard mode, attack skills from enemy melee often hits for 70+, even under SY. Boss damage is also quite crazy). If you lower blood, you won't have very strong Orders. If you don't have very high channeling, you'll have a weak splinter (removing the reason you go N/Rt anyways). Don't have high soul reaping and you'll run out of energy super fast. Not to mention, Foul Feast will be spammed on you to remove cracked armor quite often, blowing your necro's energy. Foul Feast also wouldn't be able to nearly keep up with the rate conditions are applied in some areas.
 * Anyways, I don't think your build is that bad. I just don't think its quite as good as this.<font color="Black"> &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 21:49, 15 September 2008 (EDT)

...you know what...i'm just going to submit my guild's version of Paraway. And If you guys say it is bad, then it just an obvious show of statement, "Lol, we rule here, get out." Which frankly disgusts me. This should be a place where if ideas are submitted and they are bad, they should be explained, critiqued and as a last measure, deletion. Not the thumbs down Caesar that has formed over this wiki. I will work on it tomorrow and the next upcoming days. Oh and by the way <font color="Black"> &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer is rediculously right. you should try listening to people before shutting them down; or as Sean Connery put it, "...goose stepping morons should try reading books instead of burning them."-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">The Ursan Monk 00:08, 16 September 2008 (EDT)
 * oh and 1 last note, that para-infuse build still works *wink* and the hammer build was just for lols and never was really finished.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">The Ursan Monk [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 00:08, 16 September 2008 (EDT)


 * You obviously don't understand the point of a wiki that exists to document the best builds. Backbreaker monks work; they get glad points in RA. So does echo mending. Does that make them good? Nope. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 02:09, 16 September 2008 (EDT)
 * I chuckled when I saw echo mending and the words "...work;...So does echo mending."-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">The Ursan Monk [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 21:26, 16 September 2008 (EDT)
 * "HAY GUYS I'M GONNA POST A BUILD AND IF YOU SAY IT'S BAD IT'S CAUSE YOU'RE ALL ELITISTS KK OH AND I'M GONNA COMPARE YOU TO NAZIS TOO"
 * PvX, like all wikis, is the way it is because of its userbase. If you want to improve it, make the bad people stop making idiotic votes or get more intelligent players to drown them out.  Or just stop crying and try to find a better build site.  I'd suggest you start with guild sites since PvX, as bad as it is, is the best of the public build sites.
 * tl;dr: Q___________________________Q --71.229 02:33, 16 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Obvious troll is obvious.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">The Ursan Monk [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 21:26, 16 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Pretty sure 71.299 was being serious.<font color="Black"> &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 21:44, 16 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Why so srys? -_- -- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">The Ursan Monk [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 23:28, 16 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Meh, the fact that Paraway can provide close to Warrior DPS while supporting the whole party constantly is good enough for me. Focusing on one or the other takes away from focus and effectiveness. Racthoh is 2 hawt for u guys tbh.-- Shadow [[Image:Relyk Sig.gif]] 23:48, 16 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Paragons = ranged attacks + highest Single target DPS + best party support in the game + best party healing in the game + same class damage buffs + best same class energy management in the game + Best damage reduction in the game = ...win? Of course that doesn't take into individual ham-handedness in clicking buttons as they light up or being able to follow called targets. Which seems to be the only real argument against why paragons are good and customizing them a little bit to variate the game is bad. -- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">The Ursan Monk [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]]
 * The only thing that warrior's really have over paragons is the ability to use Hammer Knockdowns, but then i keep on having this itching feeling in the back of my head that says that paragons can somehow do that too in PvE.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">The Ursan Monk [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]]
 * er, noone is arguing that paragon's aren't good. the original argument was that you were saying how bad our version of paraway was when it's directly copy-paste from racthoh's original.  If he's tweaked it since the original guru post or included additional variants, feel free to edit the build page. -- Mafaraxas  ( talk ) 12:37, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
 * I'm getting some pretty bad joo-joo. :| True; this build should be tweaked, but because of the extent that it would have to be tweaked, it would be a different build completely. That is why I have started a page on 8 man paraway that will include links to 12 man paraway for areas like Urgoz and Deep (need to talk to my friends about the builds for Deep, so please give me some time for that). I will also include a link to the current PvX paraway to show how it is different, and how it is similar.:::::::The only thing that warrior's really have over paragons is the ability to use Hammer Knockdowns, but then i keep on having this itching feeling in the back of my head that says that paragons can somehow do that too in PvE.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">The Ursan Monk [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]]
 * This is a build that is designed to allow people to easily H/H just about every vanquishing area. It is not a true "Paraway" and should not be compared to one.<font color="Black"> &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 18:12, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
 * warriors can do AoE on their own, but paragon's can't. pros and cons of that have already been discussed, though (in other words, don't discuss it again pls :>). -- Mafaraxas  ( talk ) 19:38, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
 * yeye, Warriors and other melee have to run around a lot, but what about Barrage/Incendiary Arrows Rangers??? ــмıкε  нaшк  19:47, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Barrage is pretty bad. Incendiary on the other hand is pretty great. Btw mike, have a look at this. Its probably what I'd do if I had seven heroes.<font color="Black"> &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 21:04, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
 * lol. Tbh, I'm thinking about making a page for a 2 man, 6 hero vanquish or something. =/ ــмıкε  нaшк  21:35, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Bow attacks = sloooooooow. Spear attacks = fast.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">The Ursan Monk [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 21:42, 17 September 2008 (EDT)

Hexbreaker was used mainly to keep your derv clean and your one monk hench (who is terrible at hex removal anyways or does not have it). The derv will be spamming like crazy so will stay pretty clean with it up.

Anthem of Weariness is useless in the original build, you have a constant +100 al being spammed and +3 health regen, I'd rather get the small degen from burning them mediocore weakness on such a strong team.

Choras of Restoration is also weak as it only effect 3 characters in this whole true setup (unless running another paraway with a second person).

And I think the reason Racthoh chose Aria of Zeal to support the one monk is needed as the extra healing from Ballad's is rather weak when Aria also support's the para's on the hexway setup. And the derv also spams a ton of party healing.

I still think a D/N is stronger then a N/Rt due to armor level alone. If using Windwalker's on the derv it is the highest AL character on the field at +15al +100al, this is great due to the derv usually being the first target attacked from lower health due to sac'ing.(63.164.145.198 22:56, 9 November 2008 (EST))
 * Paragons! Learn how to use them you idiot. Chorus of Restoration. Which this build doesn't even have The best healing skill in the game so I don't know why I'm even bringing it up...but anyways...Chorus of Restoration + Finale of restoration nets 141 health. So NO, it is not useless. And your math is terribly wrong with the number of people it will effect. 6 x Paragon = 6 Paragons. OMG!-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">Gaston was a Paragon... [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 15:31, 15 November 2008 (EST)


 * 6 x paragon = 12 x effects. Also, D/N is sturdier than N/Rt due to Faithful Intervention. I've been trying both, and Livia seems to really like kissing dirt. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 22:51, 15 November 2008 (EST)
 * yea, again, having a D/N in the background is nice for the adrenaline boost and the Orders. It's all on party preference. And yea, I will agree that D/N's will live longer than N/Rt's..I've had that problem in the past of livia randomly charging into the frey even when on passive and flagged. Quite the dumb hench.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">Gaston was a Paragon... [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 22:44, 20 November 2008 (EST)

Imo
Buttload of energy management for the party (Well of Power, Blood Ritual, Zealous Anthem, Aria of Zeal), so when you take a Monk Hench, they'll be able to spam without ever running out of energy. The D/N Arcane Orders build is overrated, as it can't actually heal the party very well (just using Well of Power averages more healing over time), doesn't provide energy support (which in turn means more healing from your Monk), has low Blood so weak OoP and can't take Splinter Weapon. Song of Purification+Hexbreaker Aria will keep hexes off your casters, and Finale of Restoration will trigger every two seconds if you don't overspam "SY!", and Splinter Weapon+Barrage means moar domoge and moar AoE.

The Barrage Ranger could be switched for an Incendiary Arrows Ranger (or something with Volley), although I'm not sure if it's entirely worth it with the 5 second recharge (you could use Serpent's Quickness to compensate, though). The current build lacks AoE, and losing Daze for AoE and Ranger interrupts seems well worth it. "Fall Back!" x2 means quick running, too. ــмıкε нaшк  22:05, 20 November 2008 (EST)
 * That looks gud. Well of power is underrated IMO.  I might try that as a replacement for discordway in tougher areas.  The only complaint I can think of right now is that fall back is useless for fighting.  Oh and also, I usually don't take so many rezzes.  --Thc 22:54, 20 November 2008 (EST)
 * I just like to have IMS to save time, tbh. As for Rezzes, Signet of Return could be dropped for Mending Refrain or Merciless Spear. ــмıкε  нaшк  07:18, 21 November 2008 (EST)
 * Drop the Barrager, it's useless and Stunning Strike is hawt damage (lolDaze, lolStunningStrike) and support (lolAnthem of Envy). And bring Vampiric Spirit on the Necro; a hero with 3 sac skills and no way of regaining it back (except camping in Wells in frontlines) is gonna get splattered by a rogue frontliner or casters. It's happened, a lot, and even with Imbagons. --[[Image:GoD_Hammer_and_Sickle.jpg|19px]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps;font-family:Verdana;border-style:solid;border-width:2px;border-color:red;background-color:gold;padding:0px 5px 1px 6px;"> Guild  of   Deals   07:28, 21 November 2008 (EST)
 * Drop well of power? Yet you voted 5-4-x for it? --Thc 12:03, 21 November 2008 (EST)
 * Vampiric Spirit is actually pretty terrible, because it doesn't provide any support for the rest of your party. That's also why I don't like Orders Dervishes, and because the D/N can't actually keep its Orders up very well if it actually wants to heal. Well of Power, Finale of Restoration and Signet of Lost Souls will cover your sacs. As for damage, no AoE in PvE isn't generally good, so a Barrager/IA Ranger and Splinter Weapon help a lot.

This build is amazingly terrible. -- Armond Warblade 14:10, 21 November 2008 (EST)
 * Tbh, the current one is. Paragons in PvE, aside from the Imbagon, are pretty terrible because they lack AoE attacks, and their offensive support (Anthem of Flame/Envy) are outdone by just having an AoE attack like Barrage. Sure, making the most out of Dark Fury is nice, but you could easily just take a couple random Paragon skills on a Ranger bar, and the Daze from Stunning Strike is overrated, as Splinter Weapon should drop that target before anything more than Savage Shot would have been needed. SoR is usually unnecessary (still useful, though), but a second (and not third) Paragon, usually a Motigon, is good for Finale of Restoration (which this lacks, currently) and the energy support. The above build can provide 5 pips of regen for your Monk (Well of Power+Blood Ritual), and about an additional pip from Aria of Zeal, which means that more energy for your monks=more healing in return, so the little healing the Dervish offered is made up for and then some. ــмıкε  нaшк  08:50, 22 November 2008 (EST)
 * Paragons are good in PvE, don't be bad. Stunning Strike is pretty hawt, and SoP is easy party support (as is most any Paragon build). Also, you're build is bad. If you want to cry over "lack of AoE", drop the Stunning Strike for an ele or anything else. --[[Image:GoD_Hammer_and_Sickle.jpg|19px]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps;font-family:Verdana;border-style:solid;border-width:2px;border-color:red;background-color:gold;padding:0px 5px 1px 6px;"> Guild  of   Deals   10:12, 22 November 2008 (EST)
 * Why would you drop the Stunning Strike for an Ele in a physical build that's supposed to be used for Vanquishing (thus high armor)? If you can hit at least two targets with Barrage (which is more likely than not), the Ranger will be worth taking over the Paragon. ــмıкε  нaшк  10:55, 22 November 2008 (EST)
 * Stunning Strike is hawt, especially in HM. You're underestimating the usefulness of Daze. When spells are casting a lot faster and for a lot more "umph", you'll need Daze, not some stupid Barrager. And heroes aren't exactly golden when it comes to choosing between the only and the lonely caster in the back and the big wall of 6 frontliners standing next to each other in the front. --[[Image:GoD_Hammer_and_Sickle.jpg|19px]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps;font-family:Verdana;border-style:solid;border-width:2px;border-color:red;background-color:gold;padding:0px 5px 1px 6px;"> Guild  of   Deals   10:57, 22 November 2008 (EST)
 * In Hard Mode, everything has halved casting, so chances are, you won't interrupt anything through Daze unless it was a 1+ second cast initially. Heroes also prioritise the same targets as you in PvE, so if you all attack that one Monk you want dead, it'll die, but if you only want one Paragon to Daze and attack him, you won't be getting as much as possible out of your Daze (and he'll probably switch targets, leaving a Monk Dazed with no one attacking him), so in the end, you can't make use of your Daze well enough to be worth taking. Hard interrupts are more reliable, considering they have 1/2 activations and Heroes will interrupt and then switch back to your target over and over. ــмıкε  нaшк  11:05, 22 November 2008 (EST)
 * How the fuck do you savage a half-cast RoF?
 * If you have less than eight guys wailing on a dazed monk, you're doing something wrong. Nothing casts. The only plausible excuse for not doing this is to be H/H. Even then, with four or five guys wailing on the monk, nothing will cast. I can't tell you how many things I've seen interrupted a step or two after they were cast (a la qknocking) thanks to daze. Or do you only have two physicals on your entire bloody team?
 * As for things randomly switching targets... have you never heard of calling targets or locking heroes onto a target? Seriously now, don't troll.
 * -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 11:14, 22 November 2008 (EST)
 * If you have even 5 guys wailing on a Dazed Monk, it should be dead in 2 seconds, and if you've only one guy attacking a Dazed Monk, you aren't interrupting any more than what you would be with Savage and D-Shot. Heroes are better with hard interrupts than they are with Daze.
 * That RoF is still a 1/4 second cast in HM, so Daze won't make much difference there. ــмıкε  нaшк  11:21, 22 November 2008 (EST)
 * Even assuming there's a minimum cast time (which I doubt)... how do you savage a 1/4 RoF?
 * Also, Guardian says lol to your five guys spearchucking. Thus daze. :/
 * Also, have you never heard of shades of gray? Put 2 or 3 guys on the monk if you want, you don't have to have all or nothing.
 * Also, stop trolling. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 11:54, 22 November 2008 (EST)
 * If you need Daze that bad, use BHA+Volley; this cries for AoE, tbh.
 * Also, nothing's going to interrupt a 1/4 cast RoF, so what difference does it make if you use Daze or hard interrupts? My point is to take more damage. ــмıкε  нaшк  11:57, 22 November 2008 (EST)
 * BHA is bad. Stunning Strike is good, why you can't see that is beyond me. Also, I've interrupted RoF with random D-Shot spamming. And it might be interrupted with Daze and a Mesmer in NM. --[[Image:GoD_Hammer_and_Sickle.jpg|19px]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps;font-family:Verdana;border-style:solid;border-width:2px;border-color:red;background-color:gold;padding:0px 5px 1px 6px;"> Guild  of   Deals   12:00, 22 November 2008 (EST)


 * Take an MM, a bunch of fast-attacking physicals, and a stunning strike thing to DD, daze the Disc of Chaos, and watch everything it cast get interrupted the instant it starts casting it. Only then can you try to tell me that 1/4 casts are uninterruptable, at which point I'll laugh at you.
 * I really don't see where your argument for BHA is coming from. It's nowhere near maintainable (compared to a stunning strike every five seconds or so with a 13 second duration - you are using a Silencing spearhead, aren't you?), penalizes you 40ish AL, and restricts your bar to bow attacks (which means low actual damage in exchange for, guess what, interrupts - that the hero can't even use properly because it can't predict through aftercast for 1/4 cast interrupts). You can't bring any of the command line's "I win" buttons because you can't spec high enough for them to be properly awesome thanks to requiring expertise to make your attacks cheaper (as opposed to relying on adrenaline), and you have no deep wound at all.
 * Oh, and you lose a hard res and the game's best IAS. Man, rangers suck.
 * -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 15:15, 22 November 2008 (EST)

Guys, what do you think about the N/Rt over the orders derv? It is rated "Great" build. Which one is better?--Thc 16:25, 22 November 2008 (EST)
 * The Orders Derv is a lot better. --[[Image:GoD_Hammer_and_Sickle.jpg|19px]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps;font-family:Verdana;border-style:solid;border-width:2px;border-color:red;background-color:gold;padding:0px 5px 1px 6px;"> Guild  of   Deals   16:28, 22 November 2008 (EST)
 * The derv has Faithful Intervention, +10 AL, and a bit more health. The necro is squishy and tends towards bad AI ("oh, I'm a necro primary, so I should use my necro elite which I have lots of attribute points and a rune for when I res! Oops, resed at 25% health, sacced 17% for order vamp, gg...) -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 23:30, 22 November 2008 (EST)

retards section

 * OMG! DID YOU HEAR?--72.189.80.72 22:40, 20 November 2008 (EST)
 * rofl! That was full of win.

Vulnerability - Attacks
Noticed that in HM, most of the wipes I get when using this team (especially in 4-man areas) comes from attackers with +damage attacks that ignore armor. Anyone have any idea how to help stop this? Only thing that comes to mind is to stick something like Mirage Cloak on the characters, since it lasts for a good amount of time without having to invest heavily into any attribute. Ghostwheel 06:18, 27 November 2008 (EST)
 * Swap out the Ordersbot for something with more focused healing. I personally use this:

Either that or if you're a Paragon, use "TNtF!" against them. -- <small style="font-variant:small-caps;font-family:Verdana;border-style:solid;border-width:2px;border-color:red;background-color:gold;padding:0px 5px 1px 6px;"> Guild  of   Deals   08:08, 27 November 2008 (EST)


 * As has been said many times before, N/Rt orders healers are bad and squishy. Also, Xinrae's is a bad elite due to the fact that you can only steal as much life as you take damage, which means you never take full advantage of it (unless your build is failing).
 * If you're having problems with physicals, take an actual prot monk - you know, someone with aegis or guardian or something of that nature? - or a blind or weakness spammer (bsurge/splinter hero works well, as does SS with enfeebling blood).
 * -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 23:59, 27 November 2008 (EST)
 * So a prot-monk (Ogden seems to have the best AI) would be best to replace the dervish hero in the original build? I'll give it a try--maybe hybrid, since there isn't a lot of other healing in the build. Only thing that saddens me is the Orders skills going away Ghostwheel 03:14, 28 November 2008 (EST)
 * N/Mo with aegis and prot spirit and all that. Otherwise bring an ss necro with enfeebling blood and it will cut damage big time-- Shadow Relyk [[Image:Relyk srs.gif|19px]] 03:21, 28 November 2008 (EST)
 * Just wondering--why Nec primary instead of Monk? Since he'd be the only healer, wouldn't it be better to go with Monk for Divine Favor? Ghostwheel 04:19, 28 November 2008 (EST)
 * soul reaping. -- Mafaraxas ( talk ) 07:07, 28 November 2008 (EST)
 * I was actually thinking a prot hench. No point wasting your hero slots. Alternatively, bring a friend.
 * Also, monks (for a lot of people) seem to have trouble managing energy. I've never really run into that problem myself, but whatever. The end result is people bring N/Mos for the insane energy management.
 * -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 11:13, 28 November 2008 (EST)
 * Prot henchman are pretty unreliable in hm tbh--[[Image:Relyk chtistmas2.jpg|20px]] Christmas Relyk  22:27, 7 December 2008 (EST)

Post-Update
Now that Angelic Bond got..changed(nerfed)...How should we change the 4-man area builds?--77.125.13.38 05:38, 12 December 2008 (EST)


 * Who gives a shit? Run the imbagon, the stunning strike thing, and a pnh/aof smite backline, or something lame like that. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 12:10, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * I have never used angelic bond in paraway. it's completely useless there. and now, even more so.--72.189.85.14 14:55, 18 December 2008 (EST)

So?....
I hear racway being said around a lot of places. Look and the build and ohh noez! It's only for Paragon humanz, whereas people say it's a hero set-up.....Think we got ourself a problem. --Sam6555 20:33, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The problem is you.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 20:53, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Why are you here, Life? (no pun intended) --Sam6555 22:55, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Im here because I know stuff. This is the optimum build for a paragon(or even a warrior really) using heroes. If you're pissed you can't use it effectively without one of those two professions, bitch somewhere else.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 23:18, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The problem is it's a hero set-up for a paragon.--Relyk 23:36, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Ya Relyk understands. ;) --Sam6555 00:02, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Thats not really a problem tbh.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 00:06, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The problem, therefore, is only a paragon should use it--Relyk 00:17, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Life has gone quiet.. :P --Sam6555 01:50, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Relyk, thats not a problem, thats a fact. I don't see the problem.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 02:31, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The problem is that, I have heard racway being said by a lot of people, but it's only built for primary paragons, whereas not many people play paragons. --Sam6555 13:40, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * How is this a problem? If you don't have a paragon, roll one or don't use this build. You don't go into HA/GvG and say "oh, we need [for example] two warriors, a ranger, a mesmer, three monks, and a rit, but no one we know plays mesmer, so we'll take a dervish instead because people play that!", do you? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] {&#123;Bacon}} 17:14, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Let me take it a step further. You're basically saying "Oh shit, I can't use any of these without using the specified primary profession!" -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] {&#123;Bacon}} 17:18, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * True, but the point were making is, why make a hero build set-up for just 1 proffetion, it should be universal for everything like sab/discordway is. Just pointless to have this build on PvX if it's for the most unused proff in the game. Funny that, I come looking for a 4-man team for 4-man areas, and get into this kerfuffle. :P Sabway just wasn't cutting it in Fort Ranik HM with all the hexes and whatnot. --Sam6555 22:14, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Because, unlike Sabway, this isn't a hero-only build? The most important part of this build is the SY/TNTF spam. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] {&#123;Bacon}} 23:11, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Because this owns face on a paragon or warrior, and doesn't on a caster. If you think this build is pointless, you fail. If you think nobody plays paragons, you fail. If you can't deal with hexes, just spec against them, it's not that hard. Btw, run discordway, it pwns. Not the crap here, but discordway nonetheless.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 23:16, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I see no problem with that, it is hero setup for paragon. --Anonimous. D: 23:23, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I did not say no-one plays paragonas, I said not many people do, therefore it was understood by me that this build wouldn't get used much. I do have a paragon myself, just not a big fan of him like lots of other people, doesn't mean I think they are completely pointless or whatnot. --Sam6555 11:55, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

If you're not a paragon dont run a build designed for a paragon? Problem solved? Rawrawr Dinosaur 23:32, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed... This is a build made for Paragons, plenty people make builds specifically for their primary... This build owns as a paragon player, and since DoA Heroway, I'm seeing alot more paras running around... :D Anwyn 09:00, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Moral of the story: Sam is retarded. Remove the idiot and the "problem" will miraculously right itself.220.255.7.175 23:46, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I am not retarded in any way, it's just the fact that I heard everwhere that racway was really powerful and popular. Decided to find the set of builds for it and found that it was for a primary paragon, now i'm sorry but if theres only 2 of us here that spotted a problem... --Sam6555 12:00, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It's powerful and popular and requires a paragon. Does this surprise you? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] {&#123;Bacon}} 17:24, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Sam, just stfu. It's for a paragon, not other prof. It owns face, but it's for a paragon. Get over it.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 17:39, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * You are just retarded in every way, the only problem is you so gtfo.220.255.7.174 23:41, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm just gonna leave this argument now, no-one gets the point I was trying to make and it just isn't worth the hassle. ;) --Sam6555 17:20, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Sigh. Basically, Sam is saying that since most of the players in GW aren't Paragons, there should be a modified build for non-paragons that may not be as effective but still works...

New Bars
Why the new bars? The previous Motigon was better and a Arcane Orders Hero is better than the hybrid Necro. Chill728
 * They shouldn't have been. Unkatil or w/e needs to gtfo.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 23:23, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Burn, Baby, Burn?
Had an idea that one might be able to add extra damage in the form of burning, as well as reduction of damage taken through various skills.

Paragon Hero 1:

Paragon Hero 2:

I figure that Burning Refrain, Anthem of Flame, Blazing Finale, and Blazing Spear will keep most foes on fire, while "They're on Fire!" will lower damage dealt even more. What do you guys think? 76.169.236.139 10:37, 11 April 2009 (UTC) -Posted by Ghostwheel 00:38, 28 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The extra damage reduction is unnecessary and the extra damage brought is actually not important. It's PvE; just roll something imba and win. :/ -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] {&#123;Bacon}} 00:07, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Meh, that would make HM pretty lulzy though. I think it's viable. ~ Big  [[Image:Big sadface sig.PNG]]  sysop  00:12, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Anything's viable in PvE, pretty much. Echo-mending is a viable healing strategy for lots of areas. Do we keep "viable" stuff or do we keep "good" stuff? There's a reason why Racthoh didn't include ToF; there's practically no areas in the game where your healers need it. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] {&#123;Bacon}} 00:32, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I run something similar to that when I am not playing Imbagon (gets boring after a while). I play a Cruel Spear damage build and run those 2 heroes... I use 2 Finale of Restorations tho... Also, with 2 motigons, you can run any primary...Anwyn 10:46, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Spear damage on, say, an ele primary is pretty lulzy... Especially as agg refrain is under leadership. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] {&#123;Bacon}} 14:25, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * ^^ Someone clearly didn't understand... I meant that with 2 Motigons you an run any primary, eg, Ranger (with Bow), Ele (With fire staff), Assassin (with daggers)... You getting my drift now? :) Anwyn 05:55, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
 * So where does SY/TNTF/EHSoH come from? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] {&#123;Bacon}} 14:14, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
 * ele primary with a spear --Mafaraxas 14:57, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Just to clarify, Anwyn, you meant that by running two motigons the player's build was irrelevant, not that running two motigons means you can change the imbagon's primary profession at will? Your wording wasn't very clear. -- Armond Warblade {&#123;Bacon}} 22:23, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah Armond, sorry, wording wasn't too good... hehehe... That's precisely what I meant... :) On my Rt I run 2 Motigons, their healing and damage mitigation are awesome, as well as support on nrg from anthems... :) Anwyn 07:53, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Probably
a stupid question, but if i run this along henchies, do i need to take any healer hench at all? Or should i ONLY take physicals without healer hench? 62.51.100.134 22:11, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Orders dervish is "supposed" to be the healer.-- Ikimono "a rabid grizzly bear" [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png|24px]] 05:32, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

henschmen
physical allys are the best option for this...right...but should i take warrior (or any melee) henschmen? they are so damned stupid and have a poor skill choice in most campaigns Illoyon 14:12, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * They have Charge!, which means you can zoom-zoom and also will help keep up AR. In other words, yes. ··· Danny   Does   Drugs  15:01, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Charge is an amazing elite for PvE. As far as weak henchmen, you're usually assuming that you/heroes are taking care of the damage for racway/sabway anyways, and just taking henchmen for appropriate support.  In other words, Charge is an amazing elite. --Mafaraxas 01:02, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Hoo-hah! Ikhebl0l 13:41, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Does it matter what role you play?
does it?--76.252.230.34 01:19, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Uhh, unless you can hack GW and let heroes use pve skills, yes.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 01:31, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * In other words, the Imbagon needs to be a player. ــѕт.  мıкε  01:36, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Update
With the recent lolbuff of paragons, does this need to be revised?  Life  02:15, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * God there is so much imba stuff to put in (Bladeturn Refrain for starters!). -- <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Frosty  <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Mc Admin  02:25, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Bladeturn, stand your ground is almost maintainable at this setup, find their weakness, blazing finale...everything lol.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 02:35, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The wording for Find Their Weakness sounds amazing, but it doesn't do what it say. -- <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Frosty  <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Mc Admin  02:43, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It ends after 1 attack im guessing?  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 02:45, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes -- <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Frosty  <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Mc Admin  02:45, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * bladeturn: redundant statement is redundant. --Mafaraxas 02:59, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Guys, you're forgetting fucking we shall return. 24.6.127.61 03:05, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * ^ and lets yay spirit spamming, fuck paragons. --Anonimous. D: 10:51, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * New/old spammable GftE should be there as well. 83.131.58.82 13:41, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * 20% Blocking isn't really worth it if you bring some Heroes with Aegis or DA.
 * Every Hero should have "GftE!", though, and bring something like Archive:P/any Command Hero, with "SYG!" (redundant in this build) dropped for the two optionals. That way, you've got one copy of "We Shall Return!", a high specced "GftE!", "Fall Back!" and "Never Surrender!".
 * This also needs Finale of Restoration, to compliment the extra "GftE!". ــѕт.  мıкε  17:02, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You are suggesting that 20% blocking for free is bad. Therefore, I'm suggesting you're an autistic nigger. I'll stop suggesting what I suggested if you stop suggesting what you suggested. ;o ··· Danny   Does   Drugs  17:23, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Bladeturn is good if you're not bringing any other party-wide or maintainable blocking.
 * Also, I know this is meant to be run with an Imbagon, but I'm sure a W/D with "SY!" (imagine Strength+Crit Strikes because of "GftE!") or any other physical with "SY!" would work quite well (of course an Imbagon is still more reliable, though). Mebbe add some bars into variants? ــѕт.  мıкε  17:31, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * GftE should not be there, DA should not be there, Dragon slash war and possibly a barrage ranger can run this too, bladeturn+mending refrain is lol, finale might be useful.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 19:32, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * "GftE!" is free Energy and with two heroes running it in this build, that's a Critical hit every second attack for every physical. "GftE!" and Finale of Restoration are amazing together. I understand not using DA, since this is a physical team. ــѕт.  мıкε  19:44, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Criticals do next to nothing in HM. Energy on all the paras is fine anyways because of leadership. The problem with finale is that nothing takes enough damage for it to be worth it. If you run GftE on your imba, you can spam it every attack and bring attack skills with moar energy/spam.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 19:47, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The Imbagon's already spamming "SY!".
 * As long as you aren't sacrificing too much damage potential (which you wouldn't be), overkill on Healing isn't a problem. Finale of Restoration can be maintained on 3 allies, as well.
 * If Critical hits do next to nothing (which I agree with), why do we use Aura of Holy Might to increase base damage for the Scythe builds? A Critical Hit averages about double your normal attacks with a scythe, when Aura of Holy Might only increases base damage by about 50%.
 * Either way, the Critical Hits aren't the only benefit to "GftE!". ــѕт.  мıкε  19:56, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Lemme rephrase that. Criticals in HM with a spear do next to nothing. Big sexy criticals with massive buffs and a scythe in HM do big dommage. It comes down to 2 things. 1)Can heroes actually use finale of resto properly? and 2)What would you replace?  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 19:59, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * One of the three attack skills on the Motivation bar. Wild Throw isn't particularly good since Heroes won't likely just switch targets to rebuild adrenaline and then use it on their original target (XD), so you're better off just pinging a new target. ــѕт.  мıкε  20:16, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The only replaceable thing is Anthem of Weariness, cause other than keeping Mending Refrain up it's not helping all that much with all the other defense this has. But ye something has to keep MR up, and it's either AoF, AoW (both of which at least have some use other than MR fuel) or They're on fire (which is nice cause you don't have to stop every now and then, but has no practical use whatsoever). Basically, sad as it is nothing can be replaced for GftE. Well maybe Anthem of Zeal on the Motigon, but why when that one has 0 in Comm... 83.131.58.82 20:21, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Swift Javelin (on the Imbagon and Command Hero) or Bladeturn Refrain (if you've got blocking somewhere else), tbh. ــѕт.  мıкε  20:24, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It just doesn't really need it. Nothing here is worse than GftE. AoW is there to maintain AR and the two echoes btw.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 20:49, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) You could actually alternate between "There's Nothing to Fear!" and "Fall Back!" (which your hero will use automatically) while out of battle. ــѕт. мıкε  20:58, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Apparently people don't understand why "We Shall Return!" is still bad. Here's a protip: Read something other than the description. -- Armond Warblade {&#123;Bacon}} 01:37, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It'll save time during a wipe, if that ever happens. It's also an insta-rez, and with "GftE!" un-nerfed, you can afford it. The specs are pretty much the same as FoMF, too, with decent Command. ــѕт.  мıкε  01:53, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You should never be wiping. If you do and can't wait the 30 seconds it takes to res up, you're bad. If someone dies mid-combat, leave it to the UA monk to get them up. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] {&#123;Bacon}} 23:07, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * But this is for Heroes and Henchmen, so unless you're got another player with you (which I never did, because the only time I brought other players is for missions, and even then, not very often), you won't be bringing a UA Monk. The Paragon can insta-rez allies, and the drawbacks are minimal if you've got "GftE!" to regain Energy, and other back-up rezzes with you (because of the 30 second recharge). Often when just one ally dies, the whole thing spirals out of control. ــѕт.  мıкε  11:12, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Orders Dervish
I tried out this build for the first time since I usually imbagon with various henchmen and I really like the concept, but found this much more difficult to use than my usual hard mode setup. It looks like it could use some serious tweaking. I made a couple personal adjustments (I'll share it all when I've tweaked it more), but I found the Orders Dervish AI to be comically bad. The culprit seems to be Dwayna's touch. Just like giving Hero monk touches, it generally sends your dervish on a suicide mission towards your warrior (or anyone far away like a panicking monk), who will stop at nothing except to die in order to provide a healing touch far too late. I really want the Orders dervish to work because I like Kahmu in my party but have no experience with dervish builds. Does anyone have an alternate, competent orders/heal dervish without Dwayna's touch? --Pomegranate Puncher 05:41, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Are you using a staff/wand set?. Anyways, i've personally never had any problems, but your best bet would probably be something like Rip enchantment. It's really personal preference though. Change the build according to the area.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 05:50, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, I am using a +15 energy, +20% enchant duration staff with windwalker insignias, but I do believe the problem is in the dead time that occurs while the hero is running to whomever needs to be healed. A quick glance at the skill lists is pointing me towards Pious Restoration, which seems like it could work well with Vow of Piety as a substitute, or Well of Blood if there are no henchmen to eat corpses. I'll see how it works. --Pomegranate Puncher 08:17, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I replaced Watchful Intervention with Blood Renewal. I noticed hero never uses it unless someone is low on health, but he uses Blood Renewal frequently during battle, and it helps with energy gained from Arcane Zeal. I also replace Mystic Healing with Well of Blood for areas where enemies exploit corpses. And solution to dervish chasing frontliners it not to take any at all ;) or not taking Dwayna's Touch, but it's the only nice direct heal with low recarge in this build. --  Matek  21:21, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

August Update
Nerf to arcane orders and finale of restoration. What changes are necessary now? Dok 00:06, 7 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't think anything that matters was nerfed. Wasn't it just finale and touch? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] {&#123;Bacon}} 04:37, 7 August 2009 (UTC)


 * And Vow. Life Guardian 04:43, 7 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Meh. Quite honestly, were I to boot up GW and run something, I'd just leave it because I've not run a Melonni/monk backline in forever anyway. I half want to say Melonni should be replaced by a channeling N/Rt, but I don't care enough to make a good build out of it. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] {&#123;Bacon}} 05:37, 7 August 2009 (UTC)


 * IMO it needs quit a bit of changing, probably a candidate for a rewrite due to changes over the year.94.2.129.11 18:08, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Should be archived. --Carnivorous CupcakeCarnCupcake Muffin.jpg 18:15, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * nothing wrong with the build really--Relyk 19:08, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Except it doesn't work for anything but easy areas in NM.-- Ikimono "My beard is thick." [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png|24px]] 19:41, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It works but any necro heavy build is better. That was its main problem all along. 83.131.55.217 17:41, 24 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Ikimono, you're no longer allowed to discuss PvE. IP, lol. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] {&#123;Bacon}} 06:16, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Did Armond misplace his pregnancy pills again? No one runs this in the first place. Period.-- Ikimono "My beard is thick." [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png|24px]] 06:32, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I do--Relyk 07:06, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I run it too, that's why I said it works up there, but bringing Discords or Sabway with your Para works better. Sad but true. 89.172.53.128 18:34, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Whether or not you see it run, Ikimono, doesn't change where it works when good people run it - which is a lot more than Shing Jea and THK and etc. in NM. Do you really not understand what TNTF and SY do for damage prevention? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] {&#123;Bacon}} 15:06, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Racway is shit
Racway is shit the build doesnt work anymore update the rating pls.
 * Explain yourself, please? Brandnew 10:16, October 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * I would like to know also? It works ok for me... T1Cybernetic 11:20, October 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * The only one who is good in this teambuild is the imbagon the other builds are horrible it works so good coz u have perma sy the heroes dont do anything no damage no support and a dervish who doesnt use his elite.this Build need an update Unikatil 08:05, October 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * Only your brain needs an update tbh. [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]]<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">uɐɟ <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">ɐʞıd  <font color="#FF0033">o <font color="#000000">^_^ <font color="#FF0033">o  <font color="#996600">¸ <font color="#FFCC00">« <font color="#FFCC00">` 08:57, October 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * I lol'd at that xD But it's true, this build does work. And your argument is a bit weird. Of course this only works with an imbagon. You need the shouts for mending etc. And your heroes DO deal damage and the orders derv DOES use his elite. at least, mine does Fleshcrawler   Soban  21:20, November 11, 2009 (UTC)
 * I totally agree with Fleshcrawler Soban. Racway maybe does (a bit) less damage (still does überpwnzordmg, or whatever), but this build is HIGHLY DEFENSIVE. Discordway brings higher damage, but the argument of 'racway is shit' and 'Archieved because it was 'overruled by' and 'dealt less damage than' triple necro ways is a bit reckless, isn't it? We're actually looking at the point of 'raw damage' here. The better point in this team build is,that it has high defenses and doesnt rely on minions (minion masters cause a lot of trouble due to long casting, not giving a (...) when the team leader walks away and they want to cast death nova/minion skill and of course the famous preventing of creating minions when fighting foes not leaving corpses) The point is, Racway is not stronger(but still strong due to EBSoH in combination with the stunning para and the leader and the orders dervish), but more resistant, because of the imbagon, immunity to enchantment removal(except for the orders dervish, but that wouldnt mind, because they're fast recharging enchantments) and the non-squishiness(3xnecromancer-teams have 60-60-60 armor, this one has 80-75/70-80). So, pvxwiki, try to reconsider about archieving this build. Thank you.82.73.139.17 17:30, November 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * Why was this archived all of a sudden? Necroway builds have been out forever and tbh the only thing that is all that much faster than this is discordway and that cant really handle the kind of abuse that racway can. The Big Ouchy 20:57, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

inorite? this build=win.--Bluetapeboy 18:21, January 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Personally when I play Imbagon I dont play this because I srsly find it too slow, imbagon makes things almost impossible to die with anyway, sabway > this where there are corpses tbh <font color="Black" face="Comic Sans" size="3">Tyrael [[Image:Life Sheath.jpg|19px]] <font color="Red"> Undead!  13:35, January 10, 2010 (UTC)

meta
Is this really PvE meta?, I've never seen someone use it.<small style="font-variant:small-caps;font-family:Arial Unicode MS;border-style:solid;border-width:2px;border-color:white;background-color:brown;padding:1px 5px 2px 6px;"> Consitini  09:47, January 23, 2010 (UTC)

I've seen em use it, I think it is meta, I don't think paras have enough energy for discordway so this is what they run Jush 11:11, January 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Paras can run Sabway too you know <font color="Black" face="Comic Sans" size="3">Tyrael [[Image:Life Sheath.jpg|19px]] <font color="Red"> Meow  14:18, January 23, 2010 (UTC)

replace orders derv
may replace it with this...http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:E/N_Ether_Renewal_Orders to get barbs in your team, too. Illoyon 18:46, February 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Tbh you lose out on too much healing to make replacing the derv viable--TahiriVeila 19:26, February 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * yep, half the point of putting the derv in the team is that you can then (theoretically) take only one dedicated healer and then get another damage dealer in the party for more pewpew. &mdash; Maf so rational. 03:56, February 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * dont know if anyone noticed, but the derv heals for shit-- Relyk  talk  04:06, February 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * that's why i said theoretically, heh, if i said it didn't work in practice armond (or is it auron?) would be here defending racway to the death. tbh, the few times i've run this hero/hench, i couldn't really do HM without two monks anyways, but i couldn't really make an argument against the build because it's highly likely i'm bad at imbagon/button-mashing. &mdash; Maf so rational. 08:32, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

not meta
stop being autists kthxbai-- Relyk  talk  05:49, February 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Please do not put the meta tag back on. Regardless of how fun and balanced people would like the game to be, it isn't (and if you think continually spamming SY isn't a gimmicky build at all then you have issues). I think, like many of the older builds we have, this is suffering dated syndrome (most people were running two Searing Flames heroes when this was made, so I can see it was liked at the time). It severely lacks some of the thing's we'd now look for in a build and has seen several nerfs to several skills. Namely the painful lack of aoe damage - there's only really loldamage because you're sitting in EBSoH with Orders (and taking a number of physical hench). The imbagon and motigon combined are decent, with a number of synergies arising from SY continually being spammed and effect-on-end skills. The dervs orders is so-so - albeit could be improved now. I honestly don't see what the commandagon has in the way of usefulness, apart from bladeturn. - <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Athrun <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Feya - 13:22, February 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I really don't like the idea that this build is back on great subsection. IMO it is not great anymore and as many said the order's dervish is really just meh... There are also much better options for hero team builds than racway now, especially with the buffed spirits, a mixed sabway-spiritway build blows this totally out of the water in Hard mode even with minimal corpses.  --Lania Elderfire 22:19, February 9, 2010 (UTC)

Adrenaline
2 questions: 1. The author (or another editor) of the build has suggested a furious spear mod on the imbagon's and the commandagon's spears. With Adrenaline gain multipliers capped at +100%, will this actually provide any additional adrenaline? 2. How much adrenaline will I get from each spear chuck? On each spear hit (assuming a successful hit) you get 1 strike of adrenaline, which becomes 2 adrenaline from "FGJ!" or FA. In addition, Dark Fury gives you 1 strike of adrenaline. I'm not sure if this adrenaline also is buffed by "FGJ!" or FA, but I'm guessing yes because of how quickly SY!" charges.  So do I get 3 or 4 strikes of adrenaline each spear throw? --Supernick530 18:18, February 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * 4 --- <font color="Blue"> Ressmonkey  (talk) 06:37, February 10, 2010 (UTC)

Hello, Mr. Zz.
This build requires updating. I'd suggest a votewipe, putting it back in testing and someone to update the bars according to skill changes.

Initiative, anyone? I can't PvE. -- Chaos?  -- 10:11, February 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I'd prefer if someone just posted something superior and this was archived when it gets vetted, because it was extremely popular I think we should save the original set up. - <font color="SteelBlue">Athrun <font color="Black">Feya [[Image:Lau_bfly.gif]] - 11:31, February 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, you can just aswell go and do it. -- Chaos?  -- 12:15, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

Archive
someone get me a note on my talkpage to remind me i should get a story about why here, tomorrow. --Brandnew 00:34, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * No story needed, other than the SY spammer the rest of the build is utterly useless compared to SY + any necro hero setup (sabway, Discord or any combo thereof). Someone just archive this already. 78.0.52.217 19:51, February 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * This is still alright for Para. Especially seeing as they're not the best at Sab/Discing. -- Short 19:54, February 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * to be honest just lift the motigon and the two orders skills out and its decent theorycraft. rest is a bit fail. - <font color="SteelBlue">Athrun <font color="Black">Feya [[Image:Lau_bfly.gif]] - 19:59, February 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * For sabway nothing in particular is required of the player, if you want Discord take Asuran scan for an easy hex, Anthem of Weariness, Ymlad for a cond, etc. So ye, paras are fine with either of those. 78.0.52.217 20:07, February 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Grinch runs this when we pve and it is many manlies. --<font color="Black">Frosty  [[Image:Frostcharge.jpg|19px]] 20:25, February 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's probably made manly by you running some strong hero bars :P 78.0.52.217 22:24, February 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ran this with GDW on the imbagon last night, when I was getting Guardian of Elona on Ruins of Morah. Worked great against Varesh, she didn't get a single spell off, and my party just outtanked the 15 margonites that I agro'd on the second form. I also ditched the orders for a sabway healer necro, as I dislike henchmen healing. Hope this helps! Ikhebl0l 07:26, March 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * I.e. it's still viable imo :> Ikhebl0l 07:26, March 10, 2010 (UTC)