Build talk:Team - 7 Hero Petway

excited
This page has no content and I'm already excited. -- DANDY ^_^ -- 07:21, 3 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Theorycraft is go.
 * - Chieftain Alex (talk) 09:14, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I tested your Rampage as One Idea today. It is in ideal situations faster because it does more dmg. It has a few problems. Pets only start attacking the moment you do your first hit. So the dagger hero runs forward attacks and then the pet starts moving. The energy of healers was depleted muuuch faster then with the build i posted because the dagger heroes take the full brunt of the foes and need a lot of healing. If you spear attack the pet wall will move in much faster. The second problem is energy. even with expertise at higher numbers they cant maintain Rampage as One. even with scavenger strike and zealous daggers. :- Beer_Geert (talk) 00:05, 6 May 2020 (UTC+1)
 * - Chieftain Alex (talk) 09:14, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I tested your Rampage as One Idea today. It is in ideal situations faster because it does more dmg. It has a few problems. Pets only start attacking the moment you do your first hit. So the dagger hero runs forward attacks and then the pet starts moving. The energy of healers was depleted muuuch faster then with the build i posted because the dagger heroes take the full brunt of the foes and need a lot of healing. If you spear attack the pet wall will move in much faster. The second problem is energy. even with expertise at higher numbers they cant maintain Rampage as One. even with scavenger strike and zealous daggers. :- Beer_Geert (talk) 00:05, 6 May 2020 (UTC+1)
 * - Chieftain Alex (talk) 09:14, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I tested your Rampage as One Idea today. It is in ideal situations faster because it does more dmg. It has a few problems. Pets only start attacking the moment you do your first hit. So the dagger hero runs forward attacks and then the pet starts moving. The energy of healers was depleted muuuch faster then with the build i posted because the dagger heroes take the full brunt of the foes and need a lot of healing. If you spear attack the pet wall will move in much faster. The second problem is energy. even with expertise at higher numbers they cant maintain Rampage as One. even with scavenger strike and zealous daggers. :- Beer_Geert (talk) 00:05, 6 May 2020 (UTC+1)
 * - Chieftain Alex (talk) 09:14, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I tested your Rampage as One Idea today. It is in ideal situations faster because it does more dmg. It has a few problems. Pets only start attacking the moment you do your first hit. So the dagger hero runs forward attacks and then the pet starts moving. The energy of healers was depleted muuuch faster then with the build i posted because the dagger heroes take the full brunt of the foes and need a lot of healing. If you spear attack the pet wall will move in much faster. The second problem is energy. even with expertise at higher numbers they cant maintain Rampage as One. even with scavenger strike and zealous daggers. :- Beer_Geert (talk) 00:05, 6 May 2020 (UTC+1)
 * - Chieftain Alex (talk) 09:14, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I tested your Rampage as One Idea today. It is in ideal situations faster because it does more dmg. It has a few problems. Pets only start attacking the moment you do your first hit. So the dagger hero runs forward attacks and then the pet starts moving. The energy of healers was depleted muuuch faster then with the build i posted because the dagger heroes take the full brunt of the foes and need a lot of healing. If you spear attack the pet wall will move in much faster. The second problem is energy. even with expertise at higher numbers they cant maintain Rampage as One. even with scavenger strike and zealous daggers. :- Beer_Geert (talk) 00:05, 6 May 2020 (UTC+1)


 * I could not let the idea rest about using Rampage as One and i came up with a new idea to get rid of energy problems. And this actualy works.
 * With this the damage on master of damage is like 20% higher then the enraged heroes. But after testing in VQ HM I still had the same problems as yesterday. Much less durability and a big energy problem for healers/prot. One more difference is that in actual battle spearthrowers dont have to move that much and daggers have to run wich negate part of dmg difference from master of dmg. You can't aggro 2 groups at once with Rampage as one heroes while with Enraged heroes I dont blink when that happens. :- Beer_Geert (talk) 00:55, 7 May 2020 (UTC+1)
 * With this the damage on master of damage is like 20% higher then the enraged heroes. But after testing in VQ HM I still had the same problems as yesterday. Much less durability and a big energy problem for healers/prot. One more difference is that in actual battle spearthrowers dont have to move that much and daggers have to run wich negate part of dmg difference from master of dmg. You can't aggro 2 groups at once with Rampage as one heroes while with Enraged heroes I dont blink when that happens. :- Beer_Geert (talk) 00:55, 7 May 2020 (UTC+1)


 * Haven't tested end game content yet but been having great fun taking 7 melee heroes and no healer. I prot and the blood nec heals with order etc. I've got a keybind for him using well of blood because he uses it so rarely.
 * - RobinRuler  (talk) 15:41, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a fun build. But are you not having serious problems against mesmer and ele AOE bosses in HM? Did you try VQ maps like kurzick area or in EotN? and how are you doing in maps where half the foes have blocking skills? But maybe I am knickpicking maybe i try it out later :) :- Beer_Geert (talk) 09:02, 16 May 2020
 * I tried it out. But i got decimated hard in HM by any serious foe with armor ignoring dmg :( It lacks defense and healing. :- Beer_Geert (talk) 22:54, 6 June 2020
 * Haven't tested end game content yet but been having great fun taking 7 melee heroes and no healer. I prot and the blood nec heals with order etc. I've got a keybind for him using well of blood because he uses it so rarely.
 * - RobinRuler  (talk) 15:41, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a fun build. But are you not having serious problems against mesmer and ele AOE bosses in HM? Did you try VQ maps like kurzick area or in EotN? and how are you doing in maps where half the foes have blocking skills? But maybe I am knickpicking maybe i try it out later :) :- Beer_Geert (talk) 09:02, 16 May 2020
 * I tried it out. But i got decimated hard in HM by any serious foe with armor ignoring dmg :( It lacks defense and healing. :- Beer_Geert (talk) 22:54, 6 June 2020
 * Haven't tested end game content yet but been having great fun taking 7 melee heroes and no healer. I prot and the blood nec heals with order etc. I've got a keybind for him using well of blood because he uses it so rarely.
 * - RobinRuler  (talk) 15:41, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a fun build. But are you not having serious problems against mesmer and ele AOE bosses in HM? Did you try VQ maps like kurzick area or in EotN? and how are you doing in maps where half the foes have blocking skills? But maybe I am knickpicking maybe i try it out later :) :- Beer_Geert (talk) 09:02, 16 May 2020
 * I tried it out. But i got decimated hard in HM by any serious foe with armor ignoring dmg :( It lacks defense and healing. :- Beer_Geert (talk) 22:54, 6 June 2020

SaO
I put in this build what I use ingame. Going daggers is too hard on healers so i go with spears. I expect a lot of comments. You can contact me ingame if you want to see a demo talk
 * - Beer_Geert (talk) 12:30, 3 May 2020 (UTC+1)


 * Too bad it doesn't affect spirits anymore. --Krschkr (talk) 13:09, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * In any case I reckon that a WTF healer would work better with a petway than a TaO ranger. --Krschkr (talk) 13:10, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The uniformity between those bars makes me wetWillarddog (talk) 00:26, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Someone removed my name in the build list. I got contacted quite a few times ingame. You can find me as Master Thersites. :- Beer_Geert (talk) 08:39, 5 May 2020 (UTC+1)


 * Even without Weapon of 3 Forges, shouldn't we have copies of GDW and Splinter somewhere? It gives the pets crazy strong damage. -- Devuu  ((Yuko Asakura [PhD]))  18:28, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Bunch of ideas put together into one
Do please try this at home, but don't expect amazing results.

-- DANDY ^_^ -- 21:12, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
 * GftY makes pets and minions crit.
 * Beast masters have time to cast nature rituals which could have interesting effects, with Winnowing being the natural first choice. Nature's Renewal has some potential with petways, since those are low on hexes/enchantments.
 * Mist Form heals pets and minions quite much, but the water magic damage is lackluster. D/N orders would also heal those, but this team has few physical attackers.
 * Minions synergize with the same things that pets synergize from, which is physical damage buffs that affect allies. If I was a rit, I'd play a WTF minion factory with EVAS + EBSoH, and change AotL to Jagged Bones and remove the necro's own minions.
 * Pets also provide minion fodder, although ideally they don't die since they disable the skills of their owners. Each hero should be able to put 8 points into beast mastery without spreading attributes too thin.
 * SoS rit brings Splinter Weapon.
 * Curses brings physical support to make the pets and minions deal at least a bit of damage. I know Barbs isn't popular anymore, but it's probably worth it here. Blood Ritual should be enough battery to make up for the lack of BiP, since it requires a low attribute investment and all the builds already have some energy management.
 * Smiter keeps the frontline clean, which will probably matter mainly if you're playing TaO and want a source of SoH + cleansing. RoJ is pretty good when you have a thick frontline, but I showcased Martyr here because it cleanses + heals minions and pets too. Judge's Intervention scales really well with smiting prayers and is good with minions.
 * Since everyone else is a secondary ranger, only the rit can comfortably bring a resurrect and the monk has UA to compensate. Monk doesn't bring pet since the pet death would disable healing skills. Dwayna's Sorrow is pretty cool here, and this is also the only character that can easily bring at least a few interrupts. The rest is just random healing skills.
 * Also, Pain Inverter seems like it's really high value when there are so many targets for enemy AoE. That's something I could try tomorrow in some variation of pet/minion teams. --
 * I like the ideas you put in. I hope you try it out. Did you try my build out? So you can compare? I don't mind getting new ideas (I like it) but i also like some constructive criticism about the build I put out from people testing it. :- Beer_Geert (talk) 00:42, 7 May 2020 (UTC+1)
 * Dandy did you do some testing? :- Beer_Geert (talk) 11:00, 15 May 2020

Complete healers Overhaul
The main problem with the old build was that it had monks. Monks dont have a lot of armor and always got singled out by foes and killed quite often. Now with runes the heroes have more armor and hitpoints then the pets so most of the time they ignore the heroes and attack the pets. And even if they attack the heroes they have good armor and dont die fast. I also got rid of the protter it was not needed anymore except for the skill martyr. Contact me ingame if you think you have good ideas or want to see a test. (Master Thersites)
 * - Beer_Geert (talk)  13 juli 2020 (UTC+1)
 * We Shall Return sounds like a great way to kill your energy with only 3 pips of regeneration Willarddog (talk) 20:03, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It is indeed a fast way to lose energy fast. But it is not a problem at all. With Scavanger strike the energy management is actualy quite good on those heroes. Did you test out the build? :- Beer_Geert (talk)  15 juli 2020 (UTC+1)
 * Just tacking onto this section. Looks like a neat team build idea, and I appreciate the idea that caster primary professions have been eliminated. I feel like I have a lot of significant testing before I rate this build. Could always move it back to trial for the time being but your call. My main question right now is how is scavenger strike fueled? Bleeding/spear can be unreliable, deep wound target might die before scavenger can hit, and weakness seems unreliable from dervs. DeletedUser100425457 (talk) 11:53, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Today i have done Slaver's Exile in NM with this team (not tried Duncan yet) For slavers I brought 3 dervish for extra healing power. And it worked like a charm. Havent seen any team member below 50% hp and only saw a pet die 3 seperate times. Its good you put the finger on the one weakness of this build has and that is applying conditions. Most foes die too fast to exploit scavenger's strike. But even then energy on a whole is no isue as the ranger normaly have enough energy to use We shall return(if needed) reliable. With 2 dervish healers I vq several hard maps last week like arbor bay and Drakkar lake without any problems. If you have suggestions please tell after testing. :- Beer_Geert (talk)  16 juli 2020 (UTC+1)
 * Curious why you went with the /P secondary on the Enraged Hero x3? What do you think about replacing two of them with /Rt with splinter weapon and flesh of my flesh, and the other with /N enfeebling blood/weaken armor? They can use caster wand instead of spear (shouldn't be too much of difference in damage I would think). barbed-spear doesn't strike me as being overly useful here, and other res options could replace we-shall-return. I guess I'll test either way, but there may be some value to this theory crafting anyways. DeletedUser100425457 (talk) 15:53, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I ran tests with your suggestion. 1 ranger with enfeebling blood no energy problems. With splinter weapon they ran out of energy fast non stop because they are compulsive users of splinter weapon. I came up with this
 * This actualy works quite well. Against balled up foes its much faster but against single and spread out foes its slower. I have done a VQ in Morostav Trail. And the time was almost indentical with my enraged heroes builds. I think that it will work well in Slaver's Exile though because of all the balled minions. In most situations it makes not much difference. Barbed Spear is a spammable spear attack and i watched the behaviour of the heroes and they use it quite often. Not entirely on reload but pretty much. :- Beer_Geert (talk)  16 juli 2020 (UTC+1)
 * Thanks, makes sense and I hadn't considered Ferocious Strike. Hoping to test this out over the next couple weeks. DeletedUser100425457 (talk) 18:38, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Btw, this may be an obvious question, but what pet evolution do you recommend for this? DeletedUser100425457 (talk) 17:48, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I think Dire pets are the best because they do most damage. It maybe that some people prefer more hitpoints on their pets but that is I think a personal choice. :- Beer_Geert (talk)  22 juli 2020
 * Today i finished Duncan in normal mode without any problems. I tried your idea with 2 splinter rangers and a necro ranger. I dropped the paragon for a 3rd dwayna healer. And it worked like a charm. only 1 death (myself pulling gone wrong) other then no pain at all. It worked better the my enraged heroes. :- Beer_Geert (talk)  23 juli 2020
 * Some impressions so far. Tested several beast master elites including Strike as One, Enraged Lunge, and Heal as One. Problems encountered with pets are 1) heroes don't use Strike as One and Enraged as frequently as I would like 2) pets are somewhat random 3) pets move slowly even with IMS (especially compared to HM foes). So I've found that a snare can help the pets quite a bit (Deep Freeze is nice, and Strike as One was less reliable but somewhat effective). I was able to successfully use Blinding Surge AND Deep Freeze on a R/E beastmaster (with a BiP hero in team). 4) Team survivability can be challenging without high prot. Perhaps put SY! on the player could help. 5) Tested with bow rangers (using flatbow), which provides some distance between the team and the enemies, allowing pets to be a more effective meat shield, although this is still somewhat unreliable. 6) So far I have found a pretty effective team setup which I have added here: User:User_100425457/Sandbox. I still have a lot more testing to do, but wanted to share some initial findings. The team setup in my sandbox uses an ele blind-spammer which is more effective melee shutdown than an illusion mes, and I figure that the extra DPS from the pets and Together as One can fill the damage gap. Ele provides weakness and blind for scavenger strike. This is early in testing and still lacks hex removal (may or may not add it). This team diverges from the original concept a bit by using casters, and by removing some beast master skills. It is heavily optimized for survivability and is still very fast. Still have plenty of testing to do around no-caster setups, but these are some initial findings and some ideas. DeletedUser100425457 (talk) 21:41, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for testing. But all I can say is I am a bit sad. The point of this build is that I wanted something entirely different then the boring mesmer meta. Although I agree that heroes dont use beastmastery skills optimal and pets can indeed be stupid as hell but I have not found a single map i can't vq with this team in a decent time. I see your build idea and I see 7 casters with 3 mesmers again (my eyes are burning). Mesmers are stronger and fine and sure faster but are after 10 years very boring. If I wanted to play with mesmer heroes I go back to my paragon and play this team https://gwpvx.gamepedia.com/Build:Team_-_7_Hero_Non_merc_Heroic_Refrain or if you have mercs you can even make it more mesmer boring. The fun part about the build was the fact that it was pure melee oriented. And its fun, but maybe not optimal as other meta (mesmer) team builds. But it still works quite nice. I haven't seen a teambuild that can do Slaver's Exile in NM without the use of mesmers/ST/SOS. I am not saying I dont like your testing and ideas (I am sure it works with 3 esurge mesmers) but its just not a 7 hero pet team anymore. Maybe meet ingame and have chat? :- Beer_Geert (talk)  25 juli 2020
 * Thanks for testing. But all I can say is I am a bit sad. The point of this build is that I wanted something entirely different then the boring mesmer meta. Although I agree that heroes dont use beastmastery skills optimal and pets can indeed be stupid as hell but I have not found a single map i can't vq with this team in a decent time. I see your build idea and I see 7 casters with 3 mesmers again (my eyes are burning). Mesmers are stronger and fine and sure faster but are after 10 years very boring. If I wanted to play with mesmer heroes I go back to my paragon and play this team https://gwpvx.gamepedia.com/Build:Team_-_7_Hero_Non_merc_Heroic_Refrain or if you have mercs you can even make it more mesmer boring. The fun part about the build was the fact that it was pure melee oriented. And its fun, but maybe not optimal as other meta (mesmer) team builds. But it still works quite nice. I haven't seen a teambuild that can do Slaver's Exile in NM without the use of mesmers/ST/SOS. I am not saying I dont like your testing and ideas (I am sure it works with 3 esurge mesmers) but its just not a 7 hero pet team anymore. Maybe meet ingame and have chat? :- Beer_Geert (talk)  25 juli 2020

Just saying, with enough determination you can run all sorts of whacky non-mesmer stuff in slaver's exile. I'll consider doing the ST free challenge though (and consider ritual lord as equivalent to ST and thus forbidden) to provide you with an interesting non-meta team build. --12:08, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Maybe there are other ways indeed(with some hard work). Never seen them before. But you bypassed the whole point I tried to make. It seems that if you dont bring at least 3 mesmers people wont take you seriously. So why shouldn't there be other options? Its quite rigid group think. I guess I will remove the petway idea all together because it goes against the (rigid) meta thinking. (and yes i have had these discussions ingame as well. Why I would try to make a teambuild when there is mesmerway etc etc.) I will keep the build as a well working novelty and enjoy it with my guildies who are interested. And i know you are trying to make other builds and I applaude you for that. But you still think they are not viable. :- Beer_Geert (talk)  25 juli 2020
 * TBH, I think there could still be some merit to the petway team idea. I still have a lot of testing to do. The build I posted was really designed for max suvivability and was kind of a best-of-both worlds between mesmerway and petway, and was really just meant as a check-in. I was thinking that some of my findings might be useful in tuning petway (for instance, adding a snare, adding "Save Yourself!", and using bows for distance/interrupt/AoE). IGN is Scarlett Johansom. I honestly think Heal as One deserves a lot of attention/focus here. It's bar compression, adds to team healing ability significantly, increases pet DPS (so can content with Enraged), and also helps pets survive. I am currently running a 6 ranger setup in crystal desert with no healers, and works quite well. User100425457 (talk) 14:10, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I also wanted to add, its possible that we just need some tooling to help "fix" pet AI. Pet AI is really not that bad when the beastmaster is spamming attacks instead of spells. But I believe it should be possible to create a macro/key-binding which sets all pets to attack a target. Not sure how easy this would be to add to gwtoolbox, but it could be done through a simple macro program by controlling mouse clicks. User100425457 (talk) 14:19, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Non-mesmerway teams are viable if they're well-made, that's obvious. However, most of them are not competitive with mesmerways. They simply can't combine the same levels of ease of use, effectiveness and reliability. You can be about as effective as mesmers with necromancers and elementalists, but you lack the shutdown to secure that you succeed everywhere. You can go for defensive elementalist builds to compensate the lack of mesmer shutdown, but you won't reach the same speed. Or you go for some tank&spank style team that's both as effective and reliable as a mesmerway, but hard to use. The least amount of mesmers in a team to stay competitive seems to be 2, as seen in Build:Team - 7 Hero Dual Mesmer Discord or Build:Team - 7 Hero RoJway. But that's because the supported melee player provides all the effectiveness you lose by bringing non-mesmers into the team and the mesmers keep the reliability at sufficient levels.
 * On the topic of Slaver's Exile nm: This team did the pre-bosses in <1h and Duncan in an additional 21. Doing Duncan was quite annoying because I had to manually prot both me and the dark aura hero because we'd else both die in one second from Duncan's Defense.


 * I'll admit that both the smiter and midline ritaulist builds are kind of a joke. Just as an example that you don't need mesmers and spirits to do something like slaver's exile NM without abandoning "meta" team concepts altogether.--Krschkr (talk) 15:28, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Variable Backline
(Starting new section). I've done a decent amount of testing so far. I'm kind of playing around with the idea of a standard 6-ranger core team, with a variable 2 hero back-line. My sandbox has the basic 6 ranger team, and a few backline options. The dervs could also be a backline option for this. At any rate, this build can work alright depending on the area, it could make sense to store it in some capacity (if we can't find a good setup to receive a good rating, we could also create a guide, or look at 6 hero teams - but I'm getting ahead of myself). I think I missed your in-game message, so give me another shout if you get the chance. User100425457 (talk) 14:26, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I indeed tried several times but you never reacted. When i play in 6 man area i normaly drop 1 ranger and the paragon when in HM. In nm 1 derv is enough.:- Beer_Geert (talk)  27 september 2020

Can this be played by any other profession than ranger (that cannot reliably use a pet)
I've been dying to actually ever use my ranger heroes for like, anything. Could you use this on other professions, some of which cannot ever reliably take a pet with them? You'd only have 7 pets in that case, which might not be very beneficial, but still... let me know! Jorre22225G (talk) 07:58, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I'd also be interested in knowing about this...! GamingReviewsYT (talk) 06:50, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
 * From my testing, this is mostly a for-fun build. I would probably rate this 3/3 but still waiting for the original author to reply to some of my questions. If you remove ranger primary, you lose Together as One. The focus of this 8-pet build is to maximize damage output from pets and Together as One. From my testing, this is not a very effective tactic - bad pet AI kills the concept. Pets may still be semi-useful as a meat shield, and I think you can get away with less than 8 pets (maybe 4). So, pets as meat shield might be a fun concept for non-ranger primary, I still don't think it will be super effective tho. User100425457 (talk) 20:44, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I used a similar teambuild on my ranger before the introduction of Together as One. I used it as a build for fun most of the time. Most HM missions/VQ were doable but it was quite hard. I also tried it on my monk character(with a pet). Doing everything in NM is not a problem. You can even do some easier VQ maps and missions with it. But dont expect good results in the harder HM maps. I havent tested this out much so maybe there are ways i dont know yet. The problem with caster build characters is that foes often bypass the pets because they prefer attacking lower armor targets and ignore the petwall. Bringing only 4 pets will maybe work if you also bring a minion bomber. As you already guessed you can say this build is much stronger with a ranger using ToA. I havent found a map yet I can't VQ with it. I hope i gave you an answer. :- Beer_Geert (talk)  27 september 2020

Razah & disease
Currently the guide says "Use Pyre Fierceshot or Razah for this build. They can't spread the condition disease." But according to the wiki Razah mechanically counts as human. -- kazerniel (talk) 17:41, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Better yet, it specifically states that it will most definitly transfer Disease, so I assume we need to change that suggestion. GamingReviewsYT (talk) 19:29, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Changed that. Thanks for noticing that. Now its just Pyre for that role :) :- Beer_Geert (talk)  4 december 2020

Had some fun today
I had a lot of fun in Vizunah with a guildie today :)
 * Looks indeed like a fun event for both sides. --Krschkr (talk) 12:03, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

no hex removal omegalawl
Fix this problem and I'll update my vote.

IMO this will always be a meme build. It will never be good, nor deserve a good rating. Its fun, sure, but still a meme. Keep it in testing for eternity if you don't want it deleted for trash ratings. Willarddog (talk) 22:18, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
 * have you tested it out? I guessed this build would die on this site anyway. If you don't bring at least 3 mesmer heroes in a team people will downvote it. Maybe we should change the name of the game to mesmer wars...... - Beer_Geert (talk)  13 februari 2021


 * Do you want the build to be moved to the userspace instead of having me delete it? --Krschkr (talk) 13:20, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Page restored
The page has been restored after a user announced to change his vote, which will move the page back above trash level. --Krschkr (talk) 12:03, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

No Hex Removal re-visited
After watching some gameplay of this team on twitch in Hard Mode VQ's and Tombs, I'm convinced that team-wide hex removal is not really necessary. First off, your pets are the primary targets of enemies, and they shrug off hexes no problem. Pet dies? Cool. EZ res. You also have 16 targets, which waters down how many hexes end up on you or your heros. Also, with no casters on the team, hexes are less of an issue. Anti-caster hexes are pretty moot. The sheer amount of party healing that the dervishes can pump out also negates a lot of damage which would come from hexes. This same concept (16 bodies) also means that ST rit is both not really ncessary OR practical. Player + heros all have pretty good armor and survivability as well. 3x Heal as One hero builds also have greatly enhances survivability. I would say that the main trade off between Enranged Lunge & Heal as One is energy management, as Enraged Lunge x3 helps spread long-lasting deep wound. The build would have to be modified for non-fleshy areas, I could see blazing finale being useful here.

Side note, I think Call of Haste is far and above better than Feral Aggression if you're forced to choose between the two. The largest downside to pets is that they are melee, and have to train their targets. Melee AI is already wonky as it is, and HM foes moving faster makes Call of Haste all the more important. I've gone ahead and made Call of Haste mainbar where Feral Aggression was.

Back to hexes, I have a few ideas if hex removal is deemed necessary:


 * Add Remove Hex to the Martyr Ranger (I'm going to go ahead and make this change so that you don't have ZERO hex removal...)


 * Pious Restoration on the dervishes to keep them clean of hexes. Might be good in heavy caster hate areas because flash enchantments are still spells


 * Pious Restoration + Remove hex on the dervishes (requires dropping the pets). Only for areas with hexes which are dangerous for the whole team.

Here is the list of hex removal skills: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/List_of_hex_removal_skills

Not much to choose from :/

All in all my views on this comp have done a complete 180. Now that I've seen proof of concept, I'm going to be tweaking around with it here and there to see if I can make it more efficient. I'm going to refrain voting on the comp though, and In my opinion it should be moved back into testing. Page could use some cleaning up a good bit as well, which I can work on if I get some more free time. Willarddog (talk) 20:32, 25 March 2021 (UTC)


 * I've gone ahead and moved the page back into testing. I definitely think there is real promise here, but it just needs to be perfected as well as cleaned up in terms of format & fleshed out completely. This will help the page get the best votes as possible when we take it out of testing, as the last vetting process nearly killed this build because it wasn't a finished product yet. Willarddog (talk) 14:47, 26 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Another hex removal possibility I just thought of was Hexbreaker Aura. While not super consistent due to high adrenaline cost + no IAS on the Paragon (that can be changed possibly?) It covers all the characters that matter. Downside is that it only triggers on spells, but honestly that's all you need. Remove hex is good enough for minor hexes here and there, while Hexbreaker removes one hex each from the dervishes, martyr ranger (martyr + remove hex), and the player (EBsoH). I would like to point out that Besides remove hex (should stay mainbar imo), all other hex removal should simply be variants. Any more hex removal has material costs and things you have to give up in order to get, which should be decided by the player situationally. Willarddog (talk) 15:31, 26 March 2021 (UTC)


 * More thoughts: After playing around a bit on GToB with a pvp char (yea i know... not ideal, but all I got...), I starting to think outside the box and see what skills might have good synergy on the Paragon. Bladeturn refrain might be cool, as its a cheap skill with low cooldown, that your paragon could add to all characters and pets over time in an instance. Downside is that it's probably not worth at all as its only 15-20% chance to block. Another cool skill may been Anthem of Envy. It has good synergy with Barbed spear, and it affects all of your pets too. With 4 characters using attacks & 6 pets, that's 10 targets. Its great that it only works on enemies with greater than 50% health, which helps to chunk away at mobs quickly. If all 8 pets decide to train the same target, it's very possible that not all the procs will be wasted on one target, as the proc does not get used up if you attack a foe below 50% health. If needed to for bar compression, you could potentially replace Scavenger's Strike with Anthem of Envy as the extra chant will help with energy management. In addition, with two adrenaline shouts, you could consider nudging aggressive refrain in there. Other potential options could be Anthem of Disruption or Anthem of Weariness. However, I will say that there probably isn't room for these skills on the bar, as pet skills take up so much already.


 * Another thought: "You Are All Weaklings!" is probably not as good as Barbed Spear on the player, but it's still likely a decent variant. Upside to Barbed spear is that you can shot call with it much much better, and control the flow of the fight better, which is important when you have 16 allies total... this also gives you the once in a lifetime opportunity to use a barbed spear mod xD. Other variant skills to consider are Pain Inverter and Technobabble. While the Daze condition would not last as long as "YAAL!" (7s w/ silencing spearhead vs 16s w/ heavy spearhead), Technobabble still helps to fulfill the conditional requirement on Scavenger's Strike, alongside shutting down casters pretty effectively with 16 auto attackers on your team (omegalol). Pain Inverter can be broken AF if used correctly, but is likely much more situational. However, just imagine landing a juicy pain inverter on a mob which hits all 16 of you at once... thats a nice sized 1280 damage packet right there...


 * Now, Brutal Strike: This skill should only be taken on the player, ever, if taken at all. Heros use this skill indiscriminately, regardless if they meet the conditional or not. While the energy cost shouldn't be a big issue with Scavenger's strike, it's more that hitting the bonus damage is a coinflip. Therefore, you're not really getting the full use out of the skill, and potentially wasting energy in the process. Hero's are not best at spamming pet attacks anyways. I would rather them use Enraged Lunge as a big hitter to spread more deep wound.


 * As a replacement for Brutal Strike (and optionally "WSR!"), there are a couple of cool skill ideas:


 * Predator's pounce : reliable, consistent damage + healing
 * Melandru's Assault: great spammable AOE; great synergy with Technobabble
 * Call of Protection: if you absolutely need it; very strong in areas with lots of damage packets
 * Disrupting Throw: interrupt on-demand; synergizes well with all the conditions on the team


 * Other general thoughts: After reading the comment section above more, there are some great ideas that need to be fleshed out, especially some points brought up about forgoing /P on the rangers. Scavenger's strike may not be necessary depending on how you tweak the build, which means that you don't need to concern yourself with silly conditions. This opens the door to multiple possibilities, such as bow interrupts, "SY!" spam on player, better rez skills, better utility, and best of all, more theorycrafting :). A lot of these points were brought up by User:User_100425457 and recorded in his sandbox.


 * One last point I want to make before I finish is that there seem to be two different trains of thought existing here on this talkpage. First is the one presented by OP, using 8 pets alongside ally-wide buffs to amplify pet damage as well as player/hero auto attack damage. This concept uses a massive frontline in the form of 8 pets to soak up enemy fire, while still using the pets to dish out big damage. This comp abuses the -33% damage received & +33 damage dealt very well. The second concept, championed by User:User_100425457, moreso uses the pets as frontline distractions in the same function as a minion wall, albiet much tankier, and relies more on casters for damage. I see merit to both concepts, but with regards to the second one, I don't see the point. You're kinda half committing to the concept of petway. If you want protection / distractions for the team, frontline pets are an inferior way of going about it compared to the meta mesmer comp, which provides much better damage + shutdown. In addition, the attribute split trying to ram pets onto casters is just abysmal. However, your ideas regarding SY spammer, Heal as One, and using Ele snares show some cool promise. I think that Heal as One could be a great option to explore more, as the additional healing allows the team to possibly drop a dervish and take an alternative backline. Heal as One also brings more stability & consistency to pet damage, which could prove to be better in the long run in light of bad Hero AI in using pet attacks. Willarddog (talk) 04:34, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
 * from wiki for Melandru's Assault:

"The pet does not actually attack nearby foes when this skill is used, but instead deals a flat 5...20 damage to target and nearby foes in a separate packet. The damage to nearby foes is not increased by Feral Aggression, "Together as One!" or Ebon Battle Standard of Honor, Heal as One does not cause extra life steal and Predatory Bond does not heal for each affected foe."
 * NVM that skill is hot garbage rofl. Willarddog (talk) 23:13, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Another possible idea is to make the R/Mo a R/Me and add expel hexes + power drain + other mesmer utility (?). IDK how practical that would work, as it would require something like Cautery Signet or "It's just a flesh wound" on the Paragon, or running Spear of Redemption on the spear rangers. The biggest "worry" about hexes this team could face would be something aoe ele snares. These aren't particularly damaging, they just limit your offensive capabilities. I think that for 95%+ of scenarios taking two hex removal spells MAX on your R/Mo should be sufficient for keeping yourself + heros clean of anything dangerous. Willarddog (talk) 02:17, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanx for the serious reactions. I havent played much for 2 weeks and I am amazed by all the work and testing you have done. I will read it when i am not tired and react indept to it. Till now I am the only one building this build. I tried a lot of suggestions but most didnt work. When thinking alone you can also be stuck in a tunnel vision so help like this is appriciated. The last 2 months I only use the heal as one heroes because they are much better at surviving than the enraged heroes. :- Beer_Geert (talk)  2 april 2020

Suggested Mainbar Changes
These are IMO the optimal changes which keep the current spirit of the build (and keep the skills beautifully aligned).

Alternative Heal as One:

Alternative R/P #3 Infuriating Heat:


 * Technobabble vs heavy casters or "YAAW!" vs heavy melee over Barbed Spear on the player.
 * Double hex removal on the R/Mo. Variants: Vigorous Spirit, Aegis, Draw Conditions, Prot Spirit, SoA, Life Bond (on the dervishes?),
 * Brutal Strike can obviously be switched for Predator's Pounce for a healthier frontline.
 * Heal as One alternative for some beefy bois (and nice self-heal for the heros).
 * Infuriating Heat alternative for R/P #3 to increase the whole team's damage.
 * Increased adrenaline gain means more Anthem of Envy & "GftE!" casts for more damage, as well as more Barbed Spears, which helps to trigger both the Scavenger Strike conditional for more reliable energy gain, as well as triggering Anthem of Envy more quickly for even quicker burst.
 * Note the synergy with Brutal Strike. Anthem of Envy helps brings down to less than 50% very quickly, so that the +50 (37*1.33 pet bonus) Brutal Strike conditional damage can trigger more often. Potentially main-bar worthy.

Please let me know your thoughts! Willarddog (talk) 04:49, 1 April 2021 (UTC)


 * I will already react on the use of Anthem of Envy. That skill sadly only works on players. Pets dont have inate attack skills only the black bear has (random with a 3 seconds activation time). So sadly the paragon anthems that only active on attack skill dont work on pets. (GftE works because it activates on attack). I now indeed only use Predator's pounce on my heroes because its better then Brutal strike in several ways. Better for e-management, has a pet heal and heroes use Brutal strike without taking the less then 50% hp in consideration. I have tried hex removal in the past. Heroes are stupid and remove it the second a pet gets it. Thats why i dropped the idea and never looked back. But i will try it again. :- Beer_Geert (talk)  2 april 2020


 * Good to know regarding Anthem of Envy, that sucks. Oh well. I still think that Infuriating Heat may have some Merit. It would have fantastic synergy with the player spamming "SY!", making party defense much much more solid with the lack of monk prots or an ST rit, all with the added bonus of not having to bring "FGJ!" on the player. Additionally, it would benefit the energy management on the paragon ("GtfE!" spam). Even more interesting is that it makes Hexbreaker Aura much more attractive of an option, because it can be spammed much more easily. Combined with the spell-based splinterway variant below as opposeed to the current barbed spear mainbar build, party-wide hex removal becomes much much more feasible and convenient as Hexbreaker Aura can be spammed over and over by the hero, a lot like how Martyr works on this team comp. This allows us to remove both of the hex removal spells off of the Martyr ranger, while also solving the problem of him wasting his spell casts on pets. This opens up two skill slots, which can be filled with either Predator's Pounce + optional (Call of Protection for tankier pet to make up for no Heal as One life steal, or Vigorous Spirit for more team healing), or 1-2 monk prots (Aegis, SoA, shielding Hands, or possibly Life Bond to keep the dervishes healthier?)


 * Also good to hear about Predator's Pounce. That's what I thought (I literally theorized the exact same conclusion in my wall of text theorycraft up above just as you did through playtesting), but I wanted to wait on changing the main page outside from minor fixes until I'd heard back from you or others. The only upside to Brutal Strike is if it does hit the conditional, that is an extra whopping +50 armor ignoring damage. Like you said though, I don't think the extra random conditional damage is worth the trade off: better energy management, more efficient use of skills, healing from predator's pounce, and the opportunity cost of the hero using another pet attack instead (such as Enraged Lunge, which has both better damage and more reliable damage + condition for scavenger's strike conditional; or Scavenger's Strike straight up to maintain good energy)


 * To build off of your reply above to my theorycraft wall of text, Heal as One combined with Predator's Pounce and Scavenger's Strike seems like the way to go. I think that three pet attacks is simply too much at the end of the day, as the hero will not be able to effectively use or cycle between all three. The majority of the pet's damage comes from the super buffed auto attacks anyways. Plus, all the healing! The life steal means that portion of the auto attack is armor ignoring instead of armor-respecting as well, which is better is hard mode. Willarddog (talk) 00:25, 3 April 2021 (UTC)


 * On the other hand life stealing does not benefit from the inherent 33% pet damage boost. --Krschkr (talk) 13:32, 14 April 2021 (UTC)


 * That's a fair point. After playing around with some potential team comps, heal as one isn't all its crapped up to be in terms of overall survivability. I mean, yes, its a great skill, but you'll only have 2-3 rangers rolling it at most. Switching Enraged Lunge for Heal as One will not be incredibly life changing. Another note is that pet survivability isn't the key factor imo, its player survivability. The pet can die with very little consequence as it won't accumulate DP. The more beneficial use I've seen so far actually for Heal as One (besides survivability) has been bar compression. There's still more to figure out here. Willarddog (talk) 18:23, 14 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Would it be possible to add Bestial Pounce or/and Savage Pounce possibly together with Bestial Mauling to the hero bars as a source of interrupt and long lasting daze? You will probably lose some damage per minute, but it can increase survivability as the flurry of attacks from the pets and spears will shut down casters once they are dazed. Pobu2 (talk) 13:37, 2 May 2021 (UTC)]


 * In the most polite way possible, those skills are absolutely terrible (correction: the majority of pet skills are terrible; the only merit they may have is on a bunny thumper PvP build). The reason is that hero AI is not very good at using pet attacks. The hero AI does not consider any of the effects or conditionals involved with the pet attacks, it just uses them whenever it feels like it. So the chance of a pet actually knocking down an enemy is very very low. Because of this, Bestial / Savage Pounce are simply low damage, long recharge skills which are a waste of a slot. Double is true for Bestial Mauling, since it has a 20s cooldown. Pet attacks are also very unreliable in terms of timing. The pet does not use the pet attack as soon as you press the skill. It uses it as soon as it can; there's roughly a 1s delay even if the pet is right on top of the enemy because there are pet attack animations.


 * If you want strong AoE reliable daze just take technobabble on the player like I suggested up top. Willarddog (talk) 14:48, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

Splinter #2 (AoE focused)
As for the second build, player build can be adapted multiple ways. Some ideas:


 * EVAS helps to ball foes, which helps with the MoP + Splinter AoE.


 * Spread conditions better for more reliable Scavenger Strike procs. "YAAW!" can be switched out for Technobabble for more caster hate.


 * Better damage, less reliable "SY!" uptime.


 * No EBSoH, but more reliable "SY!" uptime.

Theorycraft team comps based off of the Splinter + Ferocious Strike bar waaaay up above. Please let me know your thoughts. Willarddog (talk) 21:34, 2 April 2021 (UTC)


 * I actualy tried a variant of this idea on the 16th of july 2020. You can see my reaction there. It works like a charm on balled up enemies. But dpm is much lower against small strong groups or lone foes that run into you. I did several timed runs in Morostav trail. And the times are almost identical. So yes its a good option to maybe develop further. :- Beer_Geert (talk)  2 april 2021


 * Cool! I think by combining Splinter Weapon + Heal as One and dropping brutal strike for predator's pounce, we can have the best of both worlds. This combo maintains strong pet DPS, while also being able to take take Splinter Weapon to increase AoE damage. I think that this combo should also be feasible with respects to energy management. I'm going to take some time and look at reconciling both concepts with respects to the theorycrafting I just laid out in my response up above. I think we can finally figure out something special! Willarddog (talk) 01:02, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
 * what is your ingame name or discord name? My ingame name is Master Thersites. I think its more productive that we talk. Further i have some sh*t to deal with in real life atm (probably a divorce) so i am not very active atm. :- Beer_Geert (talk)  13 april 2021
 * My in game name is Willard Dog, but I'm not always active, I play roughly 0-6 hours a week depending on my schedule, which is pretty busy. Just life priorities you know, and guildwars is not one of them haha. I also rarely ever use Discord (app and the skill xD) for different personal reasons, albiet I used to be very active on the guildwars discord for a few months. I've been working more on this concept here and there, but I've been waiting to post something until I have it all together. Sorry to hear about your (probable) divorce. Wish you the best. Willarddog (talk) 18:44, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

4/6 party size
Probably premature, but any insight on how to size this team down to 4- and 6-person areas? What to keep, what to toss? -- kazerniel (talk) 19:25, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Premature, as this team comp is still being theorycrafted quite a bit. Temporarily, I would suggest:
 * 6-man:
 * Player build
 * 1 R/P Heal as One with "Stand Your Ground!" and "Go For the eyes!" (Drop Call of Protection, "We Shall Return!")
 * 2 R/P Heal as One with "Fallback!" (Drop Call of Protection)
 * 1 R/Mo Martyr Ranger
 * 1 D/any (drop pet skills for another flash enchant + Watchful Intervention / Remove Hex)
 * 4-man
 * Player Build (Drop "YAAW!" for Antidote Signet)
 * 3 R/P Heal as One (Drop Call of Protection for Antidote Signet, and "We Shall Return!" for Rez Sig)


 * Just my 2 cents Willarddog (talk) 19:17, 20 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Thanks for this and the work on the build! I'm a noob so can only watch from the sidelines, but it's exciting to see it shaping up! :) -- kazerniel (talk) 08:59, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Trial Status
The build hasn't seen edits in a while so I have to assume that the current build variant is static for the moment. Is there a planned update for the near future that I'm unaware of? Else the build will go back to testing soon. --Krschkr (talk) 15:23, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I am close to a burn-out irl so i don't have the energy to play much or try stuff out. I am glad others took up the slack. The version now for trail is for 95% the team i put in last winter. :- Beer_Geert (talk)  17 june 2021
 * Take the time you need. Since it doesn't look like a lot is changing anymore, the build will go back to testing for now. --Krschkr (talk) 18:19, 18 June 2021 (UTC)