Archive talk:P/A Spear Swipe Paragon

Concept
Well, here's a new concept of a build, using EotN skills and the mechanics of a Paragon to actually make use of Spear Swipe and Shadow Fang. Forgot to log in when making the build too, haha. Paragon City 20:56, 3 December 2007 (CET)
 * I don't see how this is really a new concept... i used this almost as soon as EoTN was released. But hey.. it works, only problem is energy, thought it can still work well. Lukejohnson 15:44, 10 February 2008 (EST)

Also, I will add links to the page later, but feel free to add the links yourself if you feel like it. Critiques and input is greatly appreciated. I have tried this in the RA and in ABs so far, and it worked fine in both. Worked a lot better in the RA than in ABs, especially since AB doesn't usually have as many casters as RA(AB is overgrown with sins, IMO). Can probably work against other balanced teams in the TA... but those damn gimick builds will always win in the TA. Paragon City 20:58, 3 December 2007 (CET)

This is a smart and decent build by all means, but the following sentence makes no sense to me "Any shield will work, though a Motivation Shield will give enemies a false impression." If you're thinking about skin, know that they can be altered in numerous ways when it comes to skin vs. req. Seb2net 21:02, 3 December 2007 (CET)
 * I should have added the claus, "For PvP characters", since our shields look the same, and most people can determine what builds many people run by their equipment. If I see the typical PvP motivation shield, I'm going to think it's a motivation paragon.  Same for the command shield.  And if it's a PvE shield, I usually don't look twice.  But that's just me.Paragon City 00:17, 4 December 2007 (CET)


 * Also: Shadow fang has an obscene recharge, but I suppose you could work around it with another shadow-step... *ponder* Seb2net 21:04, 3 December 2007 (CET)
 * The work around I found is just to keep throwing spears. I don't need the Shadowstep to still attack.  I use it to suprise a foe mostly, and land a suprise daze on my target with spear swipe, with the addition of a deep wound afterwards(The degen from bleeding and burning will be able to kill after the deep wound procs if their HP is low enough).  I can still just stand still and throw spears, it's just a Shadowstep makes for no loss in DPS by taking the time to run to your target to poke them in the face, and this one gives me an unconditional Deep Wound.  Adding others is available in the variant. Paragon City 00:21, 4 December 2007 (CET)

New Bar
Mostly new bar, have fun. Paragon City 04:12, 13 December 2007 (CET)
 * Drop heart of shadow for a cancel stance. It's a poor skill really. Deepwound is mandatory if you're going to be focusing on dealing damage. --Wyvern 00:59, 18 December 2007 (CET)

tested it, it's a good idea, but it really doesnt prove too effective or do that much damage =/ - Rhys 11:30, 27 December 2007 (EST)


 * There's little need to have two skills that apply Daze, especially when one of them is an adrenaline-based Elite skill. If you can't kill a Dazed target in 9-10 seconds, something's gone horribly wrong. --[[Image:scottie_bow.jpg|19px]]  Scottie_theNerd  (argue / criticise)  05:43, 8 January 2008 (EST)

I agree. Take another elite! Rickyvantof 08:14, 16 January 2008 (EST)
 * I'd say Cruel Spear (not much choice) Rickyvantof 08:17, 16 January 2008 (EST)
 * Maybe take augury of death? Rickyvantof 08:18, 16 January 2008 (EST)

Total Synergy with my build
This build totally would rock with my build Build:Me/R Fevered Hypochondriac. Thumbs up. :) --Eyekwah 11:49, 18 January 2008 (EST)
 * "confusing enemies and pursuers with his multiple shadowsteps" LOL himynameisbobbyjoe 09:43, 27 January 2008 (EST)

Elite Change
I've changed the elite to Cruel Spear for the deep wound, and have changed the strategy and wording of the documentation. Paragon City 13:04, 31 January 2008 (EST)
 * Added Stunning Strike into the variants. Paragon City 11:38, 1 February 2008 (EST)

Testing
From my own testing, I've found the Cruel Spear change to work fantastic. The change to Heart of Shadow no longer being an enchantment also makes the Quality of Life issue of survival much better, since it can no longer fail, AND you don't need to be hit to heal(As well as having range to attack your foe still if you shadow step too far away with Heart of Shadow). I use Shadow of Haste in my option slot due to the fun of the multiple shadow steps and the nuances with it, but dash works just as well(I have tested both) if you want to be straightforward. While an IAS would be nice for the build, I can't find anyplace to add it, since I do not shout. Paragon City 11:38, 1 February 2008 (EST)
 * And to reaffirm, an IAS isn't needed to kill. The 1.5 second attack speed of the spear itself is enough to keep a dazed target locked down from using his spells.  Even the 1/4th second cast spells tend to get interrupted due to the delay in the throw to hit the target, even close up.  An IAS would add some much needed solid physical DPS to the build, but isn't required to actually annoy and kill your target.  You are more of a supporting, lead-off attacker than a soloist; shadowstep in and daze the monk before he can prot himself for blocking, cripple him, and then let your melee characters beat the snot out of the monk freely before daze wears off, for example. Paragon City 11:41, 1 February 2008 (EST)
 * Dash really pisses off melee fighters having to chase after you all over the place while you dual shadow step away from their attacks. Selket Shadowdancer 12:08, 1 February 2008 (EST)

rebuild plx
This build has 11+1+1 in leadership, and leadership dont boost anything of your skills, its absolutly wasted points to the bottom, paragorns don't need speedboast even with spear swipe.... Maimed spear is bad, its conditional and its cripple for a paragorn, barbed is also lacking, the only skills i would consider use in this build is res siggy and cruel spear, also if it should be dps char, spear mastery should always be 12+1+1. To deal DPS you also need a relativly maintainable IAS to pressure. Fishy Moo oo  12:13, 1 February 2008 (EST)
 * This build doesn't have a speed boost so I have no idea where you got that from. :s I agree that it needs an IAS though. Selket Shadowdancer 12:18, 1 February 2008 (EST)
 * Well, thank you for catching the typo(Meant the last +1 for Spear Mastery, not Leadership). 12 Leadership is vital to keep daze at 9 seconds.  With the 33% boost to daze from the silencing spearhead, that equals 12 seconds of daze.  I'd rather have 12 seconds of daze than like, 6 extra health from Heart of Shadow, right?Paragon City 12:46, 1 February 2008 (EST)


 * And believe me when I say I tried to fit in an IAS, but failed to find any that can work with this build while not debilitating the Paragon in a separate way. Anyway, Bleeding + Cripple keeps skills like Mending Touch away from removing the daze if it manages to get off, as well as more cover for the Deep Wound.  But even without an IAS, I have found the build to be successful at its job(Though a bit moreso when Stunning Strike was my elite.  Permanent Daze on a target that cannot escape you or get out of your line of sight was extremely powerful.  What does it matter how hard you strike if your enemy can never heal itself or cast a protection spell to block you?). Paragon City 12:46, 1 February 2008 (EST)


 * The "Speed Boost" stance is a cancel stance for Shadow Walk, AKA, to send yourself back to your position if you don't want to wait out the Shadow Walk duration due to something else(Getting attacked, chasing a foe, etc). Shadow of Haste especially is a fun cancel stance, since you can even use Shadow Walk to cancel that stance, thus sending yourself back and forth in positions of your own determination.  It's quite fun, useful, and throws enemies off quite well if they want to kill you(And trust me, dazing a monk makes you the enemy's prime target very frequently).Paragon City 12:47, 1 February 2008 (EST)


 * Also, look at the choices I have for an IAS. Aggressive Refrain?  Gives me cracked armor(Not so bad), costs a buttload of energy upfront(Not so bad), and forces me to use Anthem of Flame contantly(Bad when you're out of energy from Shadow Walking and Spear Swiping.  Burn is a nice addition to damage(And with 12 leadership it is 3 seconds of burning), but I have to give up two skills to add both of those skills to the bar, thus taking away from my versatility, conditions I can deal, and create a totally new way to play.  The other option is the elite that gives you 33% attack speed(I forget the name off the top of my head... Soldier's something...?), but requires a shout on you to even work.  And while it stays up easily and is much more convenient to apply than Aggressive Refrain, I then need to find a spammable shout that stays on me in the Paragon line of skills, as well as the removal of my elite(Deep Wound or more Daze depending on elite choice), as well as a skill to remove to put that spammable shout in.  There is no other viable choice in the Paragon or Assassin line of skills for an IAS. Paragon City 12:57, 1 February 2008 (EST)
 * So you mean that you invest 11 attribute points and1 rune for 9 seconds daze?, just take the other elite spear attack imo, also use aggresive refrain and anthem of flame, and cracked armor aint that bad, paragorns should still have 86 armor, more then a hammer warrior. [[Image:Fish_Signature.jpg|User:Fish]] Fishy Moo oo  13:01, 1 February 2008 (EST)


 * It's 12 seconds of daze total with the spear head. Still better than 10.67 seconds with only 8 seconds of daze, since each second counts in PvP.  Cracked armor isn't bad, I play stock Para for GvG and HA for teams, and always run aggressive refrain.  The problem is that it takes away from utility and versatility, as well as adding in Quality of Life issues, when I was using it.  It was very annoying to have it run out on me during my attacking of the dazed target because I couldn't use Anthem of Flame in time(Since if I stopped attacking, the monk would get a heal or prot off, thus stopping my goal of daze shutdown of the monk altogether).  Sometimes when I DID need it, I didn't even have the energy from just using Shadow Walk and Spear Swipe.  Also, I have no shield attribute, so I'd have 66 armor with Cracked Armor, but like I said, Cracked Armor isn't the problem with adding the IAS. Paragon City 13:11, 1 February 2008 (EST)


 * Losing Spear Swipe for Stunning Strike will take away from the point of the build. Since Spear Swipe uses energy, I don't need to actually charge adrenaline for it, and can use it as soon as I get in range of the enemy, monk.  Since Shadow Walk is a stance, I can actually prep spear swipe to go off, and when I am running to him, Shadow Walk, and it goes off immediately with no delay or aftercast since it's a stance.  And since I'll be attacking him to interrupt him, it'll build adrenaline for the follow up Stunning Strike or Cruel Strike, while keeping him Dazed, Bleeding, And Crippled.  I try to catch my enemy offguard insteead of giving away that I have a skill that uses a lot of adrenaline.  In short, if I swap Spear Swipe for Stunning Strike, it makes a totally different build with a totally different playstyle.  I suggest trying the variant, with Stunning Strike as the elite(But keeping Shadow Walk as your shadowstep, don't use Shadow Fang).  Try it in the RA, and just focus on keeping permadaze on the monk.  It's quite funny when they can't do anything when you catch them with spear swipe before they can even prot themselves.  Even funnier on Ele's, and strangely amusing on Dervs. Paragon City 13:11, 1 February 2008 (EST)

Guild of Deals Vote
plz fix for calling cruel bad. Basically a ranged evis+a paras versitility.-- AESTHE  T  I  C 
 * If he wants to vote that way, let him. Most people that vote here don't even test the build first and theorycraft it, but they too are allowed their opinion regardless of the fact.  Nothing you can do but accept his vote from his theorycraft(Which I could probably prove wrong, but it'd still change nothing). Paragon City 11:01, 5 February 2008 (EST)
 * Paragon city.. u have wrote wayyyy to much n ths page, go utside and get some air...199.235.123.239 12:36, 5 February 2008 (EST)
 * I have too much free time at my job, and I have a computer. =/ Paragon City 10:10, 6 February 2008 (EST)
 * Erm... Cruel IS bad. Compared to Merciless Spear, it sucks some major dick. If you think it's good over other Paragon elites, you may consider uninstalling. BTW, people are almost ALWAYS moving in PvP, so it almost never gets a full effect. --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  21:21, 6 February 2008 (EST)
 * Wtf, Cruel is gud. ▪  √ēт   [no :D u]  22:34, 6 February 2008 (EST)
 * Tbh, you'd be hard-pressed to find a caster who wouldn't start kiting when dazed, so Cruel Spear usually won't cause DW, just damage. [[Image:Phalmatticus Sig.jpg|19px]]Phalmatticus 22:43, 6 February 2008 (EST)
 * Maybe Cruel doesn't work well in this particular build, but it is normally pretty good. ▪  √ēт   [no :D u]  23:51, 6 February 2008 (EST)
 * Well, even when the initial daze wears off a kiting caster, that caster has to stop to cast sometime... and if he never stops to cast and keeps kiting, then technially you're accomplishing your job by keeping the caster out of the game since... well... he's not casting... I guess. He won't outrun you either with your cancel stance's speed, your shadow step, and cripple, so if your target continuously kites you, I think it's actually a good thing(Since he's not casting and not assisting his team).  Paragon City 01:35, 7 February 2008 (EST)
 * I will say two+ prot monk lineups suck to go up against with this, but then again, too much prot makes everything not kill at the rate it should. I once debated Anthem of Guidance as the elite for the single purpose of landing an unavoidable spear swipe, lol.  Paragon City 01:39, 7 February 2008 (EST)


 * LOL CRUEL IS BAD &mdash;  Skadiddly [슴Mc슴] Diddles  23:53, 6 February 2008 (EST)

Ummm?
Explain the use of this build, for I see no point to it. Paragon = support + attacks. Paragons should focus on support rather than attacks, which is the whole reason of their existence. Most support build consist of at least 2 spear attacks, and many support skills which include an elite. Shadowstepping just to use a simple melee ranged spear attack is useless. Go stunning strike if you are so fond of dazing.<font color="Blue">♪Destiny Of Kiest♪ (<font color="Darkblue">talk / pvxcontribs ) 22:00, 4 February 2008 (EST)
 * It's something "Different" for the RA, as it's not expected from a Paragon. In the TA, the Stunning Strike Variant(With Spear Swipe AND Stunning Strike to shut down a caster with daze permanently) is deadly on one monk teams(Since you can usually daze your target before he gets blocking prot off, since what you're going to do is not expected).  Yes, it's not what a Paragon is known for.  But you could say the same thing with, like, Touch Rangers.  Paragon City 10:56, 5 February 2008 (EST)

Perhaps AB too...
I'm going to try this in the AB later... see if it can work alongside an assassin Ganking people, or even solo. Would be interesting results either way. Paragon City 01:42, 7 February 2008 (EST)

Heart of Shadow???
Are you kidding me? Total crap skill. You need IAS and Shadow Walk (the skill) doesn't really make sense either. This should be the build:

[build prof=Paragon/Assassin Spear=12+1+1 Leadership=11+1 Shadow=6][Death's Charge][Spear Swipe][Barbed Spear][Maiming Spear][Cruel Spear][Anthem of Flame][Aggressive Refrain][Resurrection Signet][/build]

Zuranthium 21:14, 8 February 2008 (EST)


 * Well... oh what the hell, why bother debating, I'll give it a test run. Paragon City 22:09, 8 February 2008 (EST)


 * Zuranthium, i disagree with that build. Since ull be on the front using Spear Swipe, the Cracked Armor from AR will kill u. With no self heal and no retreating skill, this is epic fail. Shadow Walk/Dash is almost always effective in running away. I Am Jebus 11:44, 10 February 2008 (EST)
 * Since Paragons aren't high priority targets, you won't take too much damage. Being close to your opponent could be an advantage too. Your spears won't take as a long to hit and you can interrupt your dazed target more. ▪  √ēт   <font color=#191970>[no :D u]  15:46, 10 February 2008 (EST)
 * Shadow Walk + Dash instead of Death's Charge + Maiming Spearing might be better, at times, for RA. I think you definitely want the bar I stated for TA. Zuranthium 16:59, 10 February 2008 (EST)
 * Well, I tested it pretty extensively last night. It worked quite well, though sometimes I felt more vulnerable with no heal to rely on in the RA... that bar is definitally better for the TA though, i'll say that.  Also, the IAS WAS very useful, though sometimes annoying to keep up while also pelting my target and interrupting him.  Just gotta keep remembering to do Anthem of Flame before I Death's Charge in.  But anyway... overall, that bar works just as well, if not, better in some situations.  It's definitally more TA freindly(Where the bar on the page is RA friendly).  Mabye I should just list both builds on the page. Paragon City 18:20, 10 February 2008 (EST)
 * Use this bar as the main one and have Shadow Walk + Dash in the variants, IMO. Whatever happens, Heart of Shadow needs to go away. A 78 point self heal every 15 seconds is not worth the slot no matter where you're playing. Zuranthium 23:32, 10 February 2008 (EST)
 * I've taken your advice and done that. Paragon City 02:52, 11 February 2008 (EST)

Shadowgon
is mentioned a lot in the build.-- Phail   Tock  A guide to this user. 22:20, 18 June 2008 (EDT)

Motigon
spear swipe was decent when motigons were pop in TA. Shock the monk and coordinate a swipe. Now it fails though :/. --<font color="Black">Readem 00:27, 19 June 2008 (EDT)

wow, votes retarded. it's like they think paragons are not overpowered or something...? like they deal low damage and have to move out of AoE spells :/. what a joke. --<font color="Black">Readem 00:41, 19 June 2008 (EDT)


 * Archiving. Worthy mention since this was run during MATs and was effective to a large extent. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 00:43, 19 June 2008 (EDT)

Archival
Wtf, when was this ever meta. Drahgal Meir 05:24, 10 July 2009 (UTC)