Guide talk:The Deep

Namespace
I'd like to elevate this page into a content namespace in the near future, but it's a borderline thing between build and guide namespace. It's pretty focused on builds, but it only states 9 necessary skills with the rest being free to pick. That'd make it an odd choice for the build namespace but not 100% fitting for guides either. I have a slight preference for the guide namespace even though that'll drastically reduce the page's visibility/reach. Any opinions? --Krschkr (talk) 01:14, 6 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Since the guide is quite focused on the builds being used, I'd actually say that it's more of a build page with an exhaustive "Usage" section than it's a guide with strong preferences for builds. So, if you ask me: Into the build namespace it goes --Veggie (talk) 19:37, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't it be quite tricky to rate this with 90% variable skills? --Krschkr (talk) 19:46, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I'd call this a guide page, for sure. The build suggestions are a part of the guide, and even though they take up quite a bit of space, there is also a lot of info just on the Deep itself and how to play through it.--Psychobabble (talk) 19:56, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
 * After all the builds are the main part of this page and due to the existance of build: pages like Build:Team - DoA Frostway and other elite area specific pages with variable builds and extensive usage sections the build namespace seems to be the more fitting choice. --Krschkr (talk) 16:56, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

If you want a guide for the Deep, you to the GWW or GuildWiki. From this you know you need Knockdowns (YMLAD), Interrupts (YMLAD), Recall/Dash, and Enchantment removal (Revealed).

If you want to bring random builds, you go to the Great individual build section on PvX, pick any AoE build and add the skills identified above. The "team" is so interchangeable you might as well bring anything, so it might as well be a Great individually vetted build. On the basis of the builds being entirely interchangeable, it gets 5 for Universality.

If you want a SC team you can find the classic historical versions in the archive. [However we don't actually have the A/D - Bonder - VoS build described on the talkpage anywhere on here.]

It's not helpful imo to retain this page in the Build namespace, as its presence will confuse people looking for optimal builds. By all means keep it in your userspace as some useful reference for your guild, but it has no place as a vetted build on PvX.

Allowing this page to be vetted would be like allowing you to circumvent the entire vetting process for individual pve builds. On the basis of that, I'm giving it zero for effectiveness as a team. For trying to vet a build page with 72 individual builds I give you the X for innovation.
 * (Reset indent) On the basis of this being 72 interchangeable individual builds I'm fully intending to give it zero for effectiveness. We shouldn't be vetting this. Submit individual builds for vetting, but don't try and circumnavigate the vetting process for PvE builds. - Chieftain Alex (talk) 23:47, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * If the little community we have doesn't accept this team concept in the build namespace we can simply move the page back into the user namespace. --Krschkr (talk) 14:58, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
 * (A slightly off topic meta thingy) A question that occurred to me is how we want to handle team builds that simply consist of well known individual builds in general. There doesn't really seem to be a consensus here, since if it were the case that these "meta builds" don't deserve a page of their own, this would apply to many of the PvP Teams as well, since they're mostly established builds with small variations and some adjusted tactics. I know this isn't completely comparable to what this page is, but to me it isn't obvious where the line between these two concepts is. Maybe we should agree on some criteria that have to be met? --Veggie (talk) 12:41, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Poll
If we don't want this page to be in PvX's content namespaces it'll be faster to sort it out this way than to go through the lengthy vetting process throwing very positive and very negative votes into a pot and checking whether the result ends up above or below the 3.75. --Krschkr (talk) 01:48, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Question: '''Shall this page stay in the content namespaces (build/guide)?
 * A question to make sure I understand you correctly: Both votes in oppose say that this page is rather a guide than a build page, but the question is whether the page should stay in either build or guide namespace or be moved back to the user namespace. You're voting for a move to the user namespace but your reasoning implies you want to move the page to the guide namespace. Could you clarify your votes? --Krschkr (talk) 16:51, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I mean Guide: namespace. This way we don't fall out with anyone in the world's tiniest wiki community or need to coerce anyone into changing their vote against their will. - Chieftain Alex (talk) 18:11, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
 * We should only move it to the namespace Guide: if it actually fits there, not to appease anyone. If people think it doesn't belong there either the easiest solution is the User: namespace. --Krschkr (talk) 18:17, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Here is my proposed rewrite, converting this "build" into a "guide" article. - Chieftain Alex  (talk) 20:09, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the little discrepancy, my vote was also in favor of a formal conversion to a Guide, in the guide namespace. Feydslynox (talk) 11:07, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

So far we have one vote for the build namespace, four for the guide namespace and two neutral votes (of which one says that either build or guide would be preferred over the user namespace). Considering the usual activity on PvX I'd say that's a strong enough vote to settle down on changing this to the guide namespace. I'll look at Alex's proposed rewrite later and discuss it on its own talk page. --Krschkr (talk) 13:18, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Support (Build)

 * It should stay in the public namespace. Although it may not fit very well in the two meta categories we have (build / guide) it serves its purpose very well. --Veggie (talk) 12:18, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * The guide is very strong and clear explained. Only the builds need adjustment, some builds you can even better leave out. Specially the exemplary team builds need some attention to give it a more professional look. The Deep is a pretty complex elite area, for that reason it seems only fitting to me, that it has a large guide section in it. If this means that this page is going to be showed in the great working build section, you have my vote. But after I see the changes.--Emilesin (talk) 23:28, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

Support (Guide)

 * The incredible flexibility of the build suggests in this page indicate to me that it's a guide. - Chieftain Alex (talk) 20:19, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * The concept is very very interesting. Would have been fire during the PuG days but it should be still relevant today (mainly in a Guild/Zbounty context imo). It's a cool concept that could be extended to the other elite areas like DoA or Slavers ! In a way, the sheer spectrum of this project means it can only be a guide. Maybe it should be coupled with an increased visibility of the "Guides" section because accessible, in depth exploration of what's needed for an elite area complete with "toolbox"-styled builds is a great idea. Feydslynox (talk) 20:51, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
 * After the question has changed I also changed my vote. This page doesn't fit the guide or build namespace perfectly, but since it could be described as "how to build a team for The Deep", which is a sort of guidance, I guess the guide namespace it is --Veggie (talk) 12:49, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
 * If we go by PvX policy as it stands, I'd have to say that this should be in the Guide: namespace rather than Build: (mostly due to PvX:WELL and the lack of any exception to it for a page like this). This could definitely be a valuable addition to PvX and a lot of the testing work has obviously already been completed. The Guide: namespace could also use more prominent placement on the main page so this doesn't get lost though. -Toraen (talk) 06:48, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Neutral

 * I don't mind. --Krschkr (talk) 01:48, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I think the build should definetly stay in the content: namespace and should not be moved back to Krschkrs user:namespace because it can be a great help for people trying to play the deep casually. On the one hand, a case can be made for putting it in the build section because the builds listed are taylored towards using deep specific strategies. On the other hand, the page includes a general guide on running the deep and explains how to use basic wiki information e.g. the part about the rooms. Sgyzen (talk) 23:19, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

To Do
At least the page is already good as-is. --Krschkr (talk) 17:05, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Additional videos
 * Kanaxai
 * Tank tricks
 * Other?
 * Test the builds which are untested.
 * RL Healer works --Krschkr (talk) 18:18, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
 * BiP Elementalist
 * BiP Paragon
 * 4 weapon sets! Done for all but three builds. --Krschkr (talk) 23:23, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Great effort is made here, that is really great.
I find it hard to give this a fair rate tough. The options in taking builds are overwhelming to my opinion, and maybe confusing cause of it. Maybe it should be more clarified what exactly is the back-line roll and what is the damage deal roll, and what roll is the best to pick when you are inexperienced. Some more explanations about skills to bring, the actual reason why you have to bring them. Then the skills to bring: I don't see much point in having a Blood is Power. If you go full heroeway its great, but with a 12 member team the damage output is so great. You only get to cast like 3 skills and what ever popped up is dead. If the team get damage from Chaos Storm in room 12 Depletion it can be handy tough, but if the team over aggro there (without a tank), they are going to wipe anyway. Having Chaos storm in each mesmer build. That skill is more the cause of spikes to fail, than it does damage. Foes almost instantly start to run away from the spot where it is casted, witch means spread out foes and a complete lost of area of effect damage. I am naming BiP and Chaos storm in my commend cause it seems to me it is "to" much apprentice in all builds. The Assassin tank build: I don't see Signet of Mystic Speed in it, Which make it doable to keep up Shadowform. Without that skill, the Assassin tank build you posted looks horrible to me (no offense). Maybe more explain about the importance of bringing knockdowns and how to use it on every Kanaxai. Skills that are not mentioned but are Really handy to bring: Ebon Escape, Meteor Shower, Wastrel's demise, Empathy, Insidious Parasite, Great Dwarven Weapon, Ebon Battle standard of Honor, Destructive was Glaive, Splinter weapon, Barrage. Maybe you could ad The Tank and Bonder tactics to it as well. Since you added a couple tank builds in it, mind as well give the full explanation with it, how that works. Monk seeder that Seeds the Bonder (that have bonds on the tank) for a party wide healing, like in DoA.--Emilesin (talk) 13:13, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

Correction on my side, you did posted Destructive was Glaive.--Emilesin (talk) 13:19, 21 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Roles
 * I think "Backline" and "Damage dealer" speak for themselves. The backline prevents your team from dying, the damage dealers deal damage.
 * Team composition
 * The best team compositions to pick when you're inexperienced is whatever you like and follow the guide. I'm not sure what you mean by "more explanations on what skills to bring" as this is a whole page dedicated to what skills to bring with a lot of different builds you can pick from? The idea behind this page is quite simple: Pick any build from the category according to it's description and you will end up with a working team. Pick 1 build from the suggestions for a position that says "pick 1", pick 1 (or not) from the suggestions for a position that says "pick 0 or 1" and then fill the team with builds from the section that says "Fill the Team". Furthermore, there is a section dedicated to team composition which makes a few suggestions on what would be a good team to begin with.
 * Blood is Power
 * It's quite useful in every team composition. While it certainly is possible to do a variant without BiP, bringing it allows for much faster runs. Yes, enemies drop fast, but BiP allows you to keep up that fast pace. Otherwise you're out of energy very soon. The team shouldn't really be standing in the Chaos Storms storm room as the tactic is either to have someone pull them, or skip the room either with a paragon or an Assassin. Directly engaging in a fight here is not encouraged
 * Chaos Storm
 * Foes will start to kite from a Chaos Storm, but there are a lot of areas with confined space and most of the time it deals enough damage to be an advantage. Keep in mind that all of this has been thoroughly tested.
 * Maintaining Shadow Form
 * There is only one place where the Assassin actually needs to maintain Shadow Form, which is the Chaos Storm room and only if you're doing the tank based skip. Maintaining it is quite possible as this build requires a conset.
 * Knockdowns
 * It is explained in the guide why knockdowns have to be used on Kanaxai and the Aspects. I'm not sure what more explanation you're looking for?
 * Skill options:
 * Meteor shower: Has been tested but it's just not worth it
 * Wastrel's Demise: It is actually mentioned in the Position 6 Energy Surge build as an option
 * Empathy isn't worth it. Foes won't live long enough that you do a considerable amount of damage compared to the high energy cost
 * Insidious Parasite: Same as Empathy
 * Great Dwarf Weapon: It is mentioned as an option in 4 Position 6 Variants
 * Ebon Battle Standard of Honor: Ebon Battle Standard of Wisdom is more effective overall
 * Destructive was Glaive: There's a whole build dedicated to that
 * Splinter Weapon: Included in the Ritualist builds for Position 6
 * Tank and Spank
 * If you read through the guide you should have noticed that it focuses on a quite different approach than a tank and spank team would. Adding this here wouldn't fit the page at all, since it requires completely different tactics. As described in the guide section, the tank here really does only tank a few things at some specific locations. This isn't an SC after all; It's a BYOB.
 * --Veggie (talk) 15:39, 22 March 2020 (UTC)


 * From what i have seen, is that people not have any idea what is expected from them, when they join a Deep run. For instance at the start, the 12 member team will be split up in to 4 teams in 4 different chambers. Each room with only 3 people in it. Each team should be able to clear that room. For that matter, should at least have each team a person who brought a KD in his build to kill this kanaxai (and how does that work?). To kill that Kanaxai Empathy is pretty handy BTW. From what i have seen, most people do not bring the suiting builds for that, and they will get killed in that room as soon they get aggro. When other people see that people are wiping, mostly some are going to leave the run. I have seen this shit happening many times. The Assassin tank most likely will die, as soon he has to recast Shroud of Distress, cause he will get interrupted. The Deep is an area full with foes that are master in interrupting and enchant removing. There are just better builds instead an A/E build. If anything goes wrong or takes too long, he will die. Freezing Nightmare have this skill Expunge Enchantments, which will remove SF as well. So the story that SF tank is a 100% tank is NOT true. If anything with the recall and pressure plate thing goes wrong, and 1 is left behind far in that room, behind the closed gate. After clear room 7 Depletion, the gate is open again and the assassin tank just can't 100% ball the foes (Freezing Nightmare) waiting there. And this shit happens a lot.
 * The only static standing foe, which can't run away from Chaos storm is the Leviathan, all the rest just step away from this area after receive (25?) damage. I really don't see the importance of bringing this skill.
 * Meteor shower: Has been tested but it's just not worth it?? Who tested this. Did you know you can use this glyph of sacrifice, so Meteor Shower instantly? Meteor shower can do some nice damage and handy KD.
 * Insidious Parasite: Same as Empathy. Is pretty handy if you have to kill this kanaxai at the start, when you are with only 3 people in that room. Left over Oni's, The Leviathan, Gollems, other kanaxai's strong skill to use it on.
 * Only 1 room at the start have to open his gate, and clear the aspect of pain room 5, in order to open al gates. But in my opinion you should clearly mention what is expected from people, to get this done. ::If that is one of the tactics for this team overview builds. I find it kinda hard to see how you are planning to do this with that builds and team order. I think it just can be more clarified (not saying it's not possible with the builds).
 * The first impression I get, when I open the page, is that I see builds with al kind of skills I would never ever bring in to Deep, and skills that in my opinion really does Mather are kinda hided away or even left out. Indeed, if scroll on, and open some hide edits, some options are there to find. I just wonder if people will take that effort after seeing the builds overviews.--Emilesin (talk) 17:48, 22 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Imo this build is too generic to rate. It's basically a guide with 45 potential builds.
 * Emilesin makes a good point regarding BiP. It's not like open world or urgoz; with most rooms you've got one or two groups of foes. The energy depletion effect room isn't painful. Sapping Nightmares are annoying but if you stand in Chaos Storm you're probably dead anyway. (edit: I suppose you might want a BiP if you're spamming Heal Party in the final room? Not sure how comfortable the healing is with the ritualist spirit/pwk is without bip) - Chieftain Alex (talk) 19:37, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
 * As I said, it works without a BiP, it's just faster with one. At the average killing speed, most casters (except the Eles) will start to run low after killing 2-3 groups because there simply isn't enough time to regenerate --Veggie (talk) 14:33, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Emilesin, your point is basically "If this build isn't used as intended, it's not good". Which is true, but not really a good argument. Almost every argument you bring only applies if either the team composition isn't according to this page or the tactics in the guide aren't used. But this page is specifically about these builds whith these tactics. This page isn't "A general collection of builds you may find useful when running the deep". Even though it's quite flexible, it is a Team build after all and requires a specific tactic. I think it is made clear in the pages introduction on how to use this page. If this is to much to ask, then I don't know how to possibly convey this. It seems to me that you are somewhat reluctant to actually read the guide or try out this build, as for example you seem to misunderstand the purpose of the A/E tank. It is not intended to do the classic tank stuff, instead there are a few specific locations where the A/E tanks things, but this is only ever really used to skip certain groups of foes. This build doesn't really need a tank at all.
 * As to how this was tested: We started out with numerous builds and tactics and worked our way up from there, trying each and every one out. Over the course of weeks we did a quite substantial amount of deep runs with varying compositions, ranging from 2 players with heroes to 12 players. You can see some examples of them in the video section.
 * On how to rate this: I think the rating should focus on how good this page is at doing what it's supposed to do. That is: Providing a guideline on how to successfully set up and complete a deep run with BYOB team. Build your team according to this page by picking the specified amount of builds from each category and you should be good to go. --Veggie (talk) 14:38, 23 March 2020 (UTC)


 * I guess the builds are all fine (with al the optional skills included) for that mather, and pretty much al they need to know is clearly explained. You guys did a great job on that one. It's just the build is called "Bring Your Own Build". Then I try to think, how a person who is not experienced in Deep thinks, When Kanaxai is the Zaishen Bounty. Looking for a fitting build on PVX Wiki and there is the page "Bring Your Own Build" 48 options to choose from. But yeah, I get you. The build is made to use the strategy on how it's explained. But still in my opinion it does not look clear to me how this train is going to roll, even tough it is clearly explained. I will tell you the first thing that crossed my mind after opening this page. Please don't be offended with it cause Its nothing personal, and I really appreciate the work you did here and what it's for. But I am sure that I won't be the only one, who get the same impression as I did after I opened the page.
 * I was thinking: Wow WTH is this? LMaO BiP in Deep? WTH Chaos storm? No Ebon Escape? What is back-line and damage deal...we in an open battle field or some? How the hell they planning to do the first 4 rooms? Who goes in what room? 1001 options in skills to pick en empty builds in the first team build edit, but must bring BiP and chaos storm?. Then seeing that Assassin tank build with Stoneflesh Aura which take for ever to cast, and 1000% guarantied is going to be interrupted, when for instance Oni's are on you.


 * My experience is, when you form a random PuG team and give them builds. Most of them not have the flawless clue what to do, and what is going to happen. They don't know what skills to bring, and what skills they need for what reason. I was hoping for a page layout which shows in one view, which team goes in what room and how each team looks like. How they kill stuff fast enough, what foes to target. I found it kinda hard to find those answers. But maybe another Deep build/guide is needed for that.--Emilesin (talk) 16:16, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * To be honest, I'm not sure what to say to this anymore without constantly repeating myself. You seem to be focussing on the assassin tank build and how it won't work as a full tank, blatantly ignoring my statements and the guide that say it's not meant for that. "when you form a random PuG team and give them builds. (...) They don't know what skills to bring". This sentence doesn't even make sense. If you give them builds, then they don't need to figure out which skills to bring.
 * "What is back-line and damage deal" if you don't know this, maybe this guide isn't for you. Unfortunately it's not possible to explain the basics of this game on every Team Build page, and it wouldn't make a lot of sense to do so. Regarding your "first thoughts": These would all have been addressed if you had just read the page. It's all explained there. --Veggie (talk) 19:40, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

"I was hoping for a page layout which shows in one view, which team goes in what room and how each team looks like. How they kill stuff fast enough, what foes to target." – I'd like to point out that this is the reason why you're having a bit of trouble using this page. This page is meant to provide a frame of tactics and recommended builds which allow to do the deep without a predetermined team setup. The reason is quite simple: If you play with new players, picked up players or in general people you don't know you can't expect that they will have the required skills or even professions to perform in your team. We've had this in our alliance time and again: Some players only had an elementalist or a ritualist or a ranger or... If you'd give them the builds for a casual deep SC (today I learnt what this is: A/D tank, SS bonder, two monks and an army of dervishes) they won't be able to participate. Even if they happen to have a twink dervish they won't have the skills and equipment for it. What this page is meant to achieve is provide a frame that allows to bring every player with you because the tactics don't overwhelm inexperienced players and the team setup and general approach is not too far off normal PvE so they roughly know what to do. With the builds on this page you can basically have most of your team c-space the deep as long as you lure foes in a few places like the aspect of failure. A part of that concept is that this setup will work without tanking. In an environment of mostly inexperienced and unflexible players the likelihood of getting a tank, let alone one who knows what he's doing, is very low. We had different tanks in our runs, but let me tell you a little anecdote: Today I've done the deep with Mozo and his alliance in a casual SC setup (described before). He tanked much more effectively than all of us did as he knew the spawn points, grabbed and balled foes. But except for skipping the Leviathan we played almost exactly like described on this page. However, even with the ineffective tanking we had in our tests every team made within the parameters of this page worked. And despite today's runs were done with an SC type team we weren't noticeably faster than with a good BYOB run because preparing foes so the dervishes can spike them often consumes as much time as killing them without any tanking. And that's why the tank position is marked as optional on this build/guide page. The builds are not designed to do clean spiking of tanked foes; instead they provide reliable results even without any kind of tank. As a result we strongly recommend to bring blood is power so even if foes are standing spread out neither monks nor damage dealers run out of energy. It's all about reliability and comfort. And because tanking is not required, chaos storm is no issue. Onis will run and shadow step around anyway. But I agree that if the team is using a tank chaos storms should only be used on foes which are not bound by the tank. I've added a note about that.

"Maybe it should be more clarified [...] what roll is the best to pick when you are inexperienced." – This is already stated in the foreword to the build section, including a link that's highlighted in coloured and bold writing. I don't think there's a need for even more emphasis. And if the inexperienced player can't do the energy surge mesmer, no problem, simply check whether he can do any other of the suggested builds or make a build for him on the fly using this page's builds as your model. "Skills that are not mentioned but are Really handy to bring: Ebon Escape [...] Barrage. Maybe you could ad The Tank and Bonder tactics to it as well." – Ebon escape is omitted as it's only really useful for speed clear runs, which explicitly isn't what this page is intended for. Unless you have a tank to shadow step to as a VoS dervish this skill is hardly of use in combat. And outside of combat it's only good for skipping some minor staircases, saving a few seconds. Barrage is not part of this page because we didn't get to test any barrage builds so far. Both an EoE ranger barrage and a primary ritualist barrage which translates its own splinter weapon@17 were intended, but we never had a player in the team to test these. I'd have done it, but my ritualist has 105hp, which is not that reliable for a midline character, and whenever I was playing ranger I was needed as the BiP. If you have tested barrage builds for ranger and ritualist please provide us with templates and equipment and I'll add them to the page. Rangers having no damage build at all right now is something I'd really like to see fixed. And the primary ritualist barrage promises to be really good at spiking. Likewise, I'd love to see the A/D tank build. I asked for it today, but it seems like the tank I asked was afk at that moment and didn't see my request for his build. If you can provide it with equipment and usage instructions I'd be more than happy to incorporate it on this page. I'm just not sure whether the A/D tank is really worth it for casual teams given it requires a bonder to work, creating cross-build dependencies that aren't really necessary.

"Imo this build is too generic to rate. It's basically a guide with 45 potential builds." – Let's discuss this in the appropriate section, please.

"I suppose you might want a BiP if you're spamming Heal Party in the final room? Not sure how comfortable the healing is with the ritualist spirit/pwk is without bip" – The suggested UA build alone is capable of countering the degeneration in the final room. BiP for heal party would only be needed if you were using a tank that invests the long time it takes to grab and place foes for a spike. In that case you'd want to counter the degeneration and some larger damage packages with it.

Maybe you'd like to do a run with us this week, playing a team that's formed using this page? It's comfortable and you'll get useless Oni summoning stones. And if this page stays in the build namespace, you may get a first impression on how you'd potentially rate the page. :-) --Krschkr (talk) 01:12, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

Emilesin's Rating
"No matter what you explain. If I see those builds and optional skills, I think people get the wrong impression on how to do Deep. Important skills are left away, and good explain on how to use them, and specially on what foes. I don't see in what room i go at the start, and with who. Mind as well post a link to the main wiki page to every possible skill in the game, and say go fix your own build." – I find that your rating isn't quite fair. You may want to reconsider your vote. Ideally you'd also give the team an actual try, as rating a build you haven't played and don't seem to understand is unlikely to produce educated, fitting votes. --Krschkr (talk) 12:30, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * You think people get the wrong impression on how to do the deep. What is the right way to do the deep? It's hard for me to believe that there's a "right way" to do anything in the game. The target audience of this page are casual and inexperienced players and the page depicts a way for everyone to do the deep without failing. It may not be the "right way" to do the deep, but that surely shows that it is a way that's suitable for its target audience? Besides, as I said in my latest comment above, I've played in a casual SC yesterday and you could hardly find a difference in how it's played, except that the SC team requires a good tank and this team doesn't need tanking whatsoever.
 * Left-away skills: We've talked about that in the previous section. You're still invited to provide the builds you feel are missing. If you want to contribute to improving the page, this is a good part to be constructive.
 * Explanations how to use the builds: They are there and extensive. There are links to the build main pages with general explanations, too. What more do you want?
 * Starting rooms: Because there are no predetermined builds you have to follow the instructions that already are on the page. Bring two damage dealers and one backline character per portal and make sure to have at least one knock down per partial team. If one of the teams doesn't make it through, the other players can spend 20 seconds to rescue them.
 * This page presents a limited set of good, suitable builds with optional skills that fit to the deep. It's nowhere as arbitrary as you're depicting it.


 * I totally get your point.
 * I just have no idea anymore, how I can explain myself more to this, and the more I try to explain, the more people seem to be offended with my comment. But sure, subvert my comments cause my comments make no sense; Sure, that is optional.
 * This site is full of team builds and heroeway setups. I just don't see why this setup contribute to the Deep compared to any other heroe/team setup, it all comes down on how you do it.
 * On the explain, how to do it and the movies that prove it. On that, you did a great job!. Don't forget that part in my comment.
 * The reason why I voted it down, are the builds and how they are showed. They just don't look professional to me, even tough they seem to work. There are just better builds. Might as well rename Urgoz spikeway to BYOB and ad the text and movies to it, and you have builds that work. Like i told before, you can not see in 1 look who goes in what room. You really have to dive in to the text to figure that out. Even tough, I already knew that stuff 10 years ago. When non of the builds really explain to me how to use it, beside blind smashing buttons and follow the leader. I just don't see how a page with 78 builds on it, contribute on how to do Deep.
 * Then BiP that is posted 16 time, Chaos Storm 12 times, and that in the first look to this page. Not saying that those skills are totally crap to bring. It just looks horrible, and I don't see the importance of it. In a Normal spike team (what ever way I would do it), I would never bring BiP or Chaos Storm. Except when I go with a heroe team, one of my heroes will bring BiP.--Emilesin (talk) 14:04, 30 March 2020 (UTC)


 * This doesn't really help us on. If I may ask (for) a couple of things again: What do you consider the "right way" to do the deep? Could you provide us with the builds you consider missing on the page or better than those currently present? Have you read the guide and tested it at least once? Have you understood by now that this is not an organized spike?  --Krschkr (talk) 17:00, 30 March 2020 (UTC)


 * I am a great stickler of leaving people free in picking builds and tactics, and totally agree on that there is not a "right way" in playing this game. That is the whole reason why I still stick to this game. I have bin doing Deep long before this teleport update came, and have bin doing it in all kind of ways. So yeah i have tested this stuff over and over again in all kind of ways, with heroes or with real teams, with tank or no tank at al. I told before, the builds work fine. It's just, it looks awful. Why 4 different exemplary teams there? Why not just 1 heroe team, and 1 human team and some optional skill, and optional profession builds as you already have. You could already separate them in 4 different teams with a clear explanation what they must do in that room. What environment effect they have to deal with. So that you see in just 1 look at this page, how it's going to roll.
 * Why is BiP and Chaos Storm such a big deal? Swap and or Signet of Binding could be just as useful in my opinion. I don't see any of those skills. You say it yourself, that there is no "right way" in doing it. Why force them to bring BiP and Chaos Storm? Like if the team will fail without it.
 * The movie shows the part where they skip/rush room 14 aspect of Torment with paragon shouts. Ebon Escape is super useful on that part. It not only prevents people from getting stuck, and help them to keep up. It also is a great help in healing other people, and yourself. People seem to forget that part about it, and that has nothing to do with speed clear. And of course the tank build. If you post that, then post at least a build that makes any sense. The A/E build with Stoneflesh Aura in Deep is just super wrong. If you post a build, then at least it has to make some sense. I you want I can ping you some builds and optional skills. But it is your build, and if you are convinced it's perfect the way it is, than you can be proud on it, and keep it as you want. It's really is a great job and a good help to people. For me, there are just to many things in the layout, why I can't give this an honest vote for being great.--Emilesin (talk) 20:43, 30 March 2020 (UTC)


 * I'm unhappy to experience this unwillingness of yours to be constructive. You don't seem to read our explanations or anything we write. Even though you've been asked three times to provide us with the superior builds you're talking about you still prefer to simply call the builds on this page terrible (despite saying they work well) and don't give anyone the chance to benefit from the supposedly better builds. Despite now admitting that there's no "right way" to do the deep you're contradicting yourself by still adamantly badmouthing the page's content because it's not a tank'n'spank team. Your ideology doesn't help anyone. --Krschkr (talk) 15:06, 31 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Well, sorry if I offended you.

I did read your explanations, and if you read my commends well, you can clearly see that I did. Keep in mind that i clearly told your builds are fine (except the A/E tank build). Just way too much presence of BiP and Chaos storm in the total lay out. Nice builds tough, but it make me itching to bring that to Deep. Why does it have to be so right in the face? And not just as optional skill to bring. I Don't know where else than here, to post builds, So here some examples.

I would let have each team Edge of Extinction in one of the builds. Necromancer for instance.
 * I would do Arcane Echo, Spiritual pain, Cry of Frustration, Chaos Storm, Empathy as an optional skill to bring.
 * I would do Arcane Echo, Spiritual pain, Cry of Frustration, Chaos Storm, Empathy as an optional skill to bring.
 * I would do Arcane Echo, Spiritual pain, Cry of Frustration, Chaos Storm, Empathy as an optional skill to bring.

I have this Ritualist or Ranger Splinter Barrage build, but on that one you might need a BiP or at least use P/cons | /
 * This build does not need much in the attribute marksmanship. It is all about the Channeling skills. On a Ritualist this works also pretty good.
 * And yes Meteor Shower. This build can be used very effective.
 * Optional skill would be Dark Escape or shadow sanctuary instead Mental Block.--Emilesin (talk) 16:26, 31 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Just one thing to take note of -- a 2/5 vote would presumably imply that the composition does not work, ( > 3.75 is working, < 3.75 is trash). Maybe the composition doesn't deserve full marks for effectiveness if the bars listed as is aren't optimized (as you point out), but perhaps 2/5 is too harsh?
 * Another thing is the universality mark, which is a consideration of build flexibility rather than effectiveness. Considering the wide array of possible build/profession combinations, the comp seems pretty "universal" at first glance.
 * I will have to give it a whirl before I can offer a rating, but that's some food for thought --Xanshiz (talk) 02:33, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Another thing is the universality mark, which is a consideration of build flexibility rather than effectiveness. Considering the wide array of possible build/profession combinations, the comp seems pretty "universal" at first glance.
 * I will have to give it a whirl before I can offer a rating, but that's some food for thought --Xanshiz (talk) 02:33, 1 April 2020 (UTC)


 * one more note is that 6 of the mesmer builds not have a mesmer hex skill in their bar, but they do have Cry of Pain. Which requires a mesmer hex. Team wide there is enough mesmer hex to back that up, but what if you are in one of the 4 rooms at start in a team with no mesmer hex. Also in the first view 11 time Spiritual Pain. Great skill, but single target. It shows like, it is a must have skill in order to make this work. I would say, mix up the team, and ad those skills as optional.--Emilesin (talk) 09:36, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
 * 6 of the Mesmer builds don't bring a hex? This is simply not true. First of all, there are only 3 Mesmer builds on this page and they all feature at least on hex. 2 of them even have area hexes. The one build that only has a hex listed as an optional even mentions in its description to bring this hex if your team doesn't have and area Mesmer hex.
 * Where do you see 11 times spiritual pain? No team composition according to this page would even allow for 11 Mesmers.
 * Krschkr already explained why Ebon Escape isn't really beneficial for this team. I suggest you read that again or try to explain why you think his statements don't hold up. Simply restating that you think it's good to bring doesn't really contribute to the discussion
 * As I explained to you, Meteor Shower didn't prove to be effective. Same as above, please explain why you think it actually is a viable option. Simply stating "This can be used effective" isn't really a good explanation. Actually it's no explanation at all
 * The A/D tank would be an option. But there are a lot of variants for Assassin based Deep tanks out there, and since this team does neither focuses nor relies on a tank, it wouldn't be helpful to include all of them here. And again: What does this build better than the featured one for this team ?
 * I'm quite sure we tested a barrage ranger as you suggested it but it wasn't worth bringing either. You'd have to ask Krschkr though as to what exactly the reasoning was, as I didn't participate in the testing runs that featured it
 * --Veggie (talk) 13:23, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I am really done with explaining my self. If you really can't count 11 times Spiritual pain in the total team overview and constantly counter all my words and effort I put in this. Clearly you don't understand a word what I am explaining all the time. If anyone asks my opinion about this, and about how they response on some complete fair contradiction on this site: I know what my answer will be.--Emilesin (talk) 13:48, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
 * And yes, go count again. In the total team overview you see 6 mesmer builds who not have a mesmer hex. And that by just the first look at this page.--Emilesin (talk) 13:52, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

You have tested Meteor shower is not effective? Here i nice movie for you. And don't tell me this bullshit that this teamsetup is not ment to be as a speed clear. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8kQScJEZ1k--Emilesin (talk) 17:03, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
 * To clarify -- you are saying that there are 11 copies of Spain and 6 non-hex mesmer builds when you add all three exemplary teams together. I don't see how this, stated as is, constitutes an argument. You should only be considering one composition at a time.
 * Next, I think most would agree that it is unfair to rate a build without actually having tried it. Have you done a full run with this setup to verify the low effectiveness rating? --Xanshiz (talk) 20:58, 1 April 2020 (UTC)


 * You seem to enjoy pissing down on people that give some fair contradiction. But fine, I will go along with it, and chew it out some more for you. Now go and look to exemplary team 1. There you see 3 mesmers, and only 1 mesmer there has 3 hex skills. If those 3 Mesmers are not in the same room at the start, 2 of them won't do any damage with Cry of Pain (they can still interrupt with it tough). Now look at exemplary team 2. Did you really look??. Hey? That is the same story as with exemplary team 1. You see 3 mesmers, and only 1 mesmer there has 2 hex skills. If those 3 Mesmers are not in the same room at the start, 2 of them won't do any damage with Cry of Pain (they can still interrupt with it tough). For exemplary team 3; It would be a weird coincident if those 2 mesmers without hex skills, enter a room without another mesmer who do have a hex tough. But Still the bars just look bad this way. And yes! THAT MAKES A TOTAL OF 6 MESMERS WHO NOT HAVE A HEX SKILL IN THE BAR, BUT THEY DO HAVE CoP.
 * Go closely watch that movies now. You will see Foes run away from Choas Storm. You see heroes cast Energy Surge, Cry of Frustration, and Unnatural Signet X 6? heroes that have that combo? And after that, all foes are almost/Dead. Foes not have that much health (Blessed Manta 720 HP, Ripper Carp 880 HP in HM). To finish it of, you could use any other optional skill, Any but Chaos Storm. So why? Why do you have to show it 11 time over all this exemplary teams? Same story for Ritual pain (tough I found that skill more useful than Chaos Storm) or BiP (On heroes BiP is great tough). Great job on the change that is made in the text layout BTW.


 * Maybe now you understand why vote it down? IT IS ABOUT THE TEAM OVERVIEW. THE EXEMPLARY TEAMS! One other thing. Go read back my comments, and you will figure out that I did tested--Emilesin (talk) 12:20, 2 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Please provide me with the suggested equipment for the A/D. I assume 20/20/20, shield set, high energy set, blessed insignias, +1+3 shadow arts, sup vigor, 3x attunement? --Krschkr (talk) 12:36, 2 April 2020 (UTC)


 * I have Posted Build:Team - The Deep 5 Man Manly Spike. There you find a similar build with all the equipment. Even a movie in it (horreble lag tough).
 * Do you see now why I mention that the team layout from the exemplary build teams look weird? And why it could be useful to already separate the builds ready for each different 4 rooms?--Emilesin (talk) 12:58, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * According to your page the A/D requires a ton of pcons. I won't add that to a team page that's designed to maintain a high accessibility. I'll come back to the rest of what you've written later. --Krschkr (talk) 13:42, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Depending on how you are planning to tank. But on Oni's or Ripper Carp or all those Sapping Nightmares in section 12, you don't need any P/cons to survive. Room 7 aspect of depletion should also not be an issue (depending on how you do it). Room 8 aspect of failure you can't tank without spell casting, also in that room your enchants get stripped due to Outcast Assassin (Dark Apostasy). Freezing Nightmare in general, you can't tank due to enchant stripping. For that matter it makes the A/E tank even more worse to bring in a team that does not need a tank. But at least with Signet of Mystic speed you won't get interrupted by Oni's or Ripper Carp or any other interrupt. In case anything goes slower than intend to, and you are about to recast Shroud of Distress.--Emilesin (talk) 14:11, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

So just to be sure that I understood correctly what you said: The A/D tank does not need pcons despite your page says so. Is that right? --Krschkr (talk) 14:25, 2 April 2020 (UTC)


 * So just to be sure that I understood correctly. You compare a 5 man Speed Clear now, with a normal spikeway run that have tons of damage, heal/protection skills in the team. Is that right??--Emilesin (talk) 15:00, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Following PvX:VETTING this means that your vote is invalid because "[a] vote must constitute an objective judgment of the build's qualities." As you're only judging a layout detail irrelevant to the builds presented on this page an objective judgment of the build's qualities is not given. As Xanshiz pointed out your reasoning for disliking the overview doesn't make total sense either as you're adding up skills from different exemplary teams and arguing based on this that the individual teams are bad. Because you've laid out that your vote violates PvX:VETTING I'm going to remove it. You can submit a new rating any time, but I kindly ask you to vote on the builds' and tactics' quality this time. We can discuss whether to present exemplary teams or not. My own position regarding this topic is neutral. I think that these exemplary teams may be useful to convey the information that this page allows to create teams with various different available player professions and have heard positive feedback about this from my alliance. But I don't consider them necessary and wouldn't strongly miss them. Veggie has a different opinion on this and will probably write a few words about it if asked.
 * I find it increasingly harder to assume good faith in what you're writing. I dismissed the A/D tank build because your page says it requires personal consumables. Your reply did not clearly tell me whether that's actually the case or not, so I asked to be sure, but you're still not giving me an answer. I'll therefore have to assume that the A/D tank requires personal consumables and does not fit into this page.
 * After all you're still missing what this page is about, as you call playing with a tank normal and don't accept that tanking is completely optional in this team build and the requirement of personal consumables is not intended. The target audience of this page doesn't have them. That's also why most of the builds you posted don't fit here either. The two energy surge builds are just variants of what's already present, so they'd be superfluous. The star burst you pinged does not have any energy management and will only work with a tank who balls foes and a team that does a relatively coordinated spike to cut down the individual energy consumption/group of foes. That's why it doesn't fit to a page which consideres tanking completely optional and it's why the suggested star burst build is more fitting. We've found someone to play the barrage ritualist and added it after testing as it does good spikes and still has some value against spread-out foes due to edge of extinction and supporting team members with splinter weapon.
 * You say that your rating is entirely about, basically, the first line of this page which is not even content but a bit of visual extra information that's even hidden in expanders and only there for interested people to show the variety of builds this page supports. "Maybe now you understand why vote it down? IT IS ABOUT THE TEAM OVERVIEW. THE EXEMPLARY TEAMS!"
 * Another thing: I'd also like to ask you to reconsider the way you're interacting with other users on PvX. Using capslock or switching to a rough tone was a thing in PvX a long time ago and I hope that we can avoid going back there. Clarifying positions and eventually, possibly, reaching consensus, can and should be done in a civilized manner. No one's "pissing on you", as you said it. We're just having a hard time understanding what you try to convey. Especially when there seem to be contradictions within what you write. I have no doubt that you have useful things to say that'd help improving this page, but it's not easy to extract these informations from your contributions. Please try to convey information more easily understandable so it doesn't take 3000kb of comments until we get parts of your point. I'd love to think that this is just my fault, but I asked a guild mate to help me with understanding what you're saying and both of us were having a hard time.
 * As a last note, consider looking into the poll on this talk page. As you seem to have strong feelings about this page you may want to participate in it. --Krschkr (talk) 14:10, 8 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Hop on your Assassin and go test it, if you want to know it can be done without p/cons. I already told, it is not needed to us them. I have copied passed below here the line i have written seven days ago. Kinda strange you missed that, even tough you had a guild mate helping you to understand it.

(::::::::::Depending on how you are planning to tank. But on Oni's or Ripper Carp or all those Sapping Nightmares in section 12, you don't need any P/cons to survive.)
 * Clearly you guys not understand a word from what i have written. Do what ever, but my vote you won't get. Because the builds, as how they are displayed in the exemplary teams are just not good. If you really can't see that, i have highly doubt of the experience level from the person who posted it. I just can't back that up, even tough the rest of this page, and the intentions are very good.--Emilesin (talk) 23:50, 8 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Another thing. You all can constantly offend me, by responding on my comments with: You don't understand it, you have not really looked to the page, you have not tested it blablabla on and on. It does not really matter what I write. Clearly you have not read any of it, otherwise I would not have all this backfire. Clearly you are very offended by me, because I criticize your hard work. Just Don't expect me not to breath back some fire to all this meaningless and unfounded comments I got back. So don't blame me for not reaching consensus, which "should be done in a civilized manner".--Emilesin (talk) 10:31, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Non-healer BiP hero
We've discussed the possibility of having a non-healer BiP hero in case there already are three players playing a backline role. A four characters backline is overkill unless the backline players are inexperienced. [build prof=Me/N FastCasting=8+3 IllusionMagic=12+1+3 InspirationMagic=8+1 BloodMagic=7][Blood is Power][Wandering Eye][Signet of Clumsiness][Arcane Conundrum][optional][Power Drain][Drain Enchantment][Ether Feast][/build] Saving it here so we don't forget the build until we have time to test it in a run. Will provide a short report once it's available. Bonus: Attribute runes are identical with standard hero equipment. --Krschkr (talk) 22:52, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Variable skill slot
 * – general.
 * – for teams which apply multiple conditions, i.e. with shockwave + star burst.

Utility Character
We've been discussing the removal of the utility character (aka tank) after our last runs. In a poll 9 party members voted against tanking, 2 favoured it. (see pic)

Featuring an entirely optional tank is a bit confusing anyway and in most cases it only slows down runs in practice, so let's discuss whether we actually want to keep the utility characters. I'd personally want to remove all but the hundred blades warrior and move that one to the damage builds section to keep it. --Krschkr (talk) 12:24, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Exemplary Teams
Do we want to keep them? They are a nice little starter but apparently their primary effect is to cause aggravation. I vote for removing them entirely. --Krschkr (talk) 12:28, 15 April 2020 (UTC)


 * I would say to keep them. Just make 2 or 3 exemplary teams, one of them with heroes (maybe a 2 man heroe team to get the 12 members). I would also adjust the exemplary team (non heroeteam), so it is showed as already 4 different teams (like with a space between them). So you see strait in one view, who go in what room and with whom. And of course mix up that skills, so every mesmer brings something which can be useful--Emilesin (talk) 15:41, 15 April 2020 (UTC)