Archive talk:A/E Shadow Form Runner

See notes to see why this build works. This takes less energy to maintain shadow form and it is LOL easy to keep it up with this build.--The Gates  Assassin  19:52, 22 May 2008 (EDT)

So three of us have this build here now who's stays? Shure 20:03, 22 May 2008 (EDT)


 * Take Radiant > Survivor's. Saying "About 500 health" is rather stupid if you're practically invincible. --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  20:05, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * PBAOE? Shure 20:06, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Nah he's right. It's a runner, you shouldn't get hit by that stuff.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]The Gates  Assassin  20:06, 22 May 2008 (EDT)

Oh and I think technically my build is faster since Dwarven Stability has no after cast. Also my has less casting times for that spell. Also skills that go through shadow form are reduced to half so this build is more survivable and the Dwarven + Dash combo almost makes this build faster. In KDless areas this build also has two shadow steps making this build very fast.--The Gates  Assassin  20:10, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Yea i guess this one is faster than mine so could someone trash it(not good at that stuff) while your doing that ill solo tombs 300 time faster than before. Shure 20:12, 22 May 2008 (EDT)

We need to make only one of these. I think this one is the best, so and  and  should be merged/deleted. ---  Ressmonkey (talk)  20:52, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * <3 Smells like another perfect rating build within an hour xD--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]The Gates  Assassin  20:56, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Hmmm not enough votes. Go vote more.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]The Gates  Assassin  21:22, 22 May 2008 (EDT)

How much Deldrimor rank does this need to work?Stryk the Lightning 21:41, 22 May 2008 (EDT)

Also probably doesnt need 8 air magic, as the breakpoint for glyph of swiftness to 2 spells (which is what 8 gives it) is 4. You could get some more deadly arts probably. If not, maybe something else from the elementalist line.Stryk the Lightning 21:50, 22 May 2008 (EDT) You don't need 12 in deadly either, so mind as well put it into Air.--The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  21:59, 22 May 2008 (EDT)


 * Or.. if you took more out of Deadly (since you won't be in Paradox most of the time), you could put in 12 to air and get 3 spells out of it.. which may be more useful if you brought some more spells.Stryk the Lightning 22:03, 22 May 2008 (EDT)

How does GoS and DP stack, additive or multiplicative? Ned a reminder. Otherwise, GoS+DP+Death's Charge=Super Shadowstep!--<font color="99CCFF">R ELYK   <font color="CCCCFF">(Talk  | <font color="99CCFF"> Edits)  22:17, 22 May 2008 (EDT)

A/E
After the new update, when they change Flame Djinn's Haste and Storm Djinn's Haste back to 33% change Dark Escape to one of those, therefore you move 33% faster, and you can maintain both Dash and that at the same time.-- Fire   Tock  's Button leads to Gwiki. 23:25, 22 May 2008 (EDT)

Just ran to Droks with this build but changed Stability/ IAU for dark prison/siphon speed because I haven't gotten them yet it was extremly easy I had no Deaths and non max armor on Drahgal Meir 00:16, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

Maybe you could also add a credit, cause this build setup is on the gw.gamependium site for a long time. I created it and shared it ingame and on that site, but didn't add it on this site. http://gw.gamependium.com/tools/builds/show/4135 And maybe its also a good idea to add that you need a lot energy for this build. Full energy radiant and rune equiopment is required. And the main thing: SF last 26 seconds and has a 30 sec cooldown so you can't keep it mentaining 100% :s. Robertjanvaneijk1988 (23/05/2008)

Hes right. This build was already created far beore you added it --greetz Axelfoly
 * Why should I credit it? I've never even heard of Gamependium in my life. Also Robert, the new update makes SF last 32 seconds at 16 shadow so it will ast 38 seconds with a +20% enchantmod.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  07:08, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

But it would be great if you could do that, cause im the one who designed this build in the first place and shared it with a lot of people ingame and on the other build site when it wasn't mantainable yet (used it cause you had only 4 sec downtime):)As you could see on http://gw.gamependium.com/tools/builds/show/4135 I already created it 24/02/2008 :P. robertjanvaneijk1988 (23/05/2008)
 * No one really cares tbh. And build articles on PvXwiki aren't supposed to have credit given to the creators even if they were, in fact, the first person to come up with a combination of skills. - PANIC!  [[Image:Panic_sig4.png|50px|18px]] <font color="#D70000"> sexiness!  09:45, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Yeah, no1 cares who made a build.  09:52, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

Well on gw.gamependium is normal to credit persons if the made a almost same version of the build before you did. and it took me around 4 days to blance it :P. This is my main build and I putted a long time in disigning to make it perfect :P. But np thought that was also normal on this site :)

Recharge
Erm, not to put a damper on anyone's party, but isn't the recharge time 60? --Joseph Leito 11:34, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Yup. See Glyph and Paradox. - PANIC!  [[Image:Panic_sig4.png|50px|18px]] <font color="#D70000"> sexiness!  11:35, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Yeah, duh, sorry. Ignore the idiot (ME) --Joseph Leito 11:36, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

Lets hope this build doesnt get nerfed in the near future, because it is THE BEST build for running. Obviously. <font color="Red">kill<font color="Orange">A <font color="Blue">runa  <font color="#D70000"> Leet!

epic
we should archive all the other running builds and just leave this in there  Antiarchangel  <font color=#C0641B>TROLL  00:21, 24 May 2008 (EDT)

E/A
Ok, for the record, this build owns everything =P but, i've tried running this one E/A way (for chest runs this weekend) and it works. You have a 30 seconds SF duration and a 30 sec downtime, wich gives you a 1 second time you'll be vulnerable, so whilst running E/A way, i've got only 1 thing to say, don't run into a popup or a mob when SF is almost ran out, or cast Heart of Shadow immeadiatly, then SF. You need to cast GoS and Deadly Paradox while SF is still up to have the biggest survival chance though. Someone should add it to variants, or just mention it on the page. just telling^^ Bright is Da Name 04:05, 24 May 2008 (EDT)

I put 11 in fire magic and 4 in air magic and i used Fire Djinn's Haste with glyph of swiftness and when it ran out, i cast dark escape and there was no problem with energy or whatever, and the run was succesful (droks) Plohek 10:04, 24 May 2008 (EDT)

Oh what about using windborne speed? Plohek 10:05, 24 May 2008 (EDT)

You should add more speed boosts to the variant section because not everybody has max dwarf rank to have a 100% stance lengthener <font color="Red">kill<font color="Orange">A <font color="Blue">runa  <font color="#D70000"> Leet!
 * Good Point. I'll add a few.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  19:11, 24 May 2008 (EDT)

I had some energy problem with Storm Djinn's haste, since u loose 1energy each sec, so it hardly regenerates... Plohek 06:37, 25 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Probably because it makes you have only +1 energy regen while running lol. I can't think of anything else to put in.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  11:08, 25 May 2008 (EDT)

Fixing Up
I thought that the article looked a bit rough around the edges because there we no links to skills mentioned, splaces, etc. So I added some links to it. I have also done the droknar's forge run and added it to the list of runable places. I also filmed it and made it without dying on my first try. I will add a link to the movie once it has been edited and such. Lyssan55 10:32, 25 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I also added a link to a video of me running the entire forge run. It's on veoh and random ads appear sometimes but other than that it's not bad.  <font color="#0000CC">Ŀ¥ЅЅΔΝ <font color="#0066FF">● <font color="#0099FF">55!  

I added in variants the fact that you could use only dash with Stability if you have max Deldrimor. This will result in a 37.5% speed boost overall ((50%x6sec)/8). Which is faster the 25% from the other run skill and you won't need halves damage cause your 100% in sf. And in those 6 seconds of use the whole energy cost of Dash regens (4pips gives 8 energy in 6 sec) :P
 * Wow thats a really good fact to know. So technically, the most effective version of this build is with dark escape removed and more shadow steps?--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  20:15, 26 May 2008 (EDT)

Yep, take the following: Dash, Dwarven Stability, Glyph of Swiftness, Deadly Paradox, Shadow form, Dark Prison, Death's Charge and 'I am Unstoppable' for the fastest and safest way of running. :P robertjan 02:21, 29 May 2008 (EDT)

Signet of Judgement
I just tried Droks run with The build, and Sig of judge Kills me entirely, can anybody inform me how to bypass KD?
 * This.--Reason.decrystallized 19:56, 25 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Yeah it's listed RIGHT below the build.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  20:21, 25 May 2008 (EDT)

Been using it
16 shadow, no 20% dwarven lasts 21 sec, no energy using whole chain :D. Ran from vlox falls to rata sum with those things removing sf too--<font color="99CCFF">R ELYK   <font color="CCCCFF">(Talk  | <font color="99CCFF"> Edits)  06:38, 26 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Then rata sum to tarnished haven--[[Image:Relyk Purifying Veil Sig.jpg|19px]]<font color="99CCFF">R ELYK   <font color="CCCCFF">(Talk  | <font color="99CCFF"> Edits)  06:47, 26 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Then vlox falls to gad's encampment. this could farm shards of orr maybe?--[[Image:Relyk Purifying Veil Sig.jpg|19px]]<font color="99CCFF">R ELYK   <font color="CCCCFF">(Talk  | <font color="99CCFF"> Edits)  23:33, 26 May 2008 (EDT)
 * iirc, some of the baddies on second lvl have chilblains. also, shock is a bit of a problem unless you blow a slot on "I am unstoppable" that you might otherwise need for dmg, etc.--Reason.decrystallized 06:22, 27 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Haha seen that b4, someone said chilblains requires a target. But shock would be bothersome, have to ditch one of the criticals on the daggers SF build or do some other farm--[[Image:Relyk Purifying Veil Sig.jpg|19px]]<font color="99CCFF">R ELYK   <font color="CCCCFF">(Talk  | <font color="99CCFF"> Edits)  20:59, 27 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Because i'm an idiot, apparently, I didn't realize that chilblains now requires a target. shock  and aftershock, though ... for the damage, take .  for the interrupt, well, DP cuts the cast time, so you'd be okay on SF itself, but the problem would be getting glyph interrupted.  you'd have to precast about ten seconds before SF was charged, so that if it was, you would have enough time to try again.  i might try it at some point.--Reason.decrystallized 06:56, 28 May 2008 (EDT)

Fixed.
On the main page, you spelled Granite Citadel wrong, so the link going there didn't work.

All better now. (Dances With Pets 18:27, 26 May 2008 (EDT))

Siphon Speed
You've got Deadly Paradox and Glyph of Swiftness to reduce its recharge, so I'm sure you could use it. -Mike 21:20, 26 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Why bother? Hex removal kills siphon, it's not usable in areas where there aren't enemies immediately near by. Perma dark-escape is better--Goldenstar 21:32, 26 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Yeah, and everyone has r10 dwarf, so that they can keep it up... oh, now i remember, NO! Bright is Da Name 14:27, 27 May 2008 (EDT)
 * You only need rank 6 and stop being lazy. It isn't that hard.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  14:44, 27 May 2008 (EDT)

Skill+attribute change
I changed the skills and attributes a bit. Its now: Dash, Dwarven Stability, Glyph of Swiftness, Deadly Paradox, Shadow form, Dark Prison, Death's Charge and 'I am Unstoppable', instead of Glyph of Swiftness, Deadly Paradox, Shadow form, Dwarven Stability, Dash, Dark Escape (you don't need this skill). This setup will give you the fastest way of running possible. 37.5% (50x6/8)overall speed increase, lots of shadow stepping and anti knockdown/cripple and more armor. I aslo added in equipment Rune of Attunement that provides energy on full equipment, except head for +3 in shadow arts. for the largest energy pool possible, cause you don't need a lot health. GoS affects 3 spells now instead of 2 for shadow stepping etc, because you don't need more then 3 points in Deadly Arts (7 sec of Deadly Paradox is enough for shadow form, after this you use the stance Dash again). I also placed 'Dark Escape instead of Dash' in variants for people that prefere this type of running. Hopefully its a good add.robertjan 02:27, 30 May 2008 (EDT)
 * It does improve running speed, but can you maintain energy having to use dash every 8 seconds while maintaining shadow form too? <font color="#000">&not; Klump eet  07:10 {GMT} 30-05-<font face="Times">MMVIII

I discribed this in usage :). Use Dash in combination with Dwarven Stability for running. Dash lasts 6 sec and has 8 seconds cooldown. In those 6 seconds the assassin regens 8 energy with their 4 pips. This combination will give you a total run effect of (50%x6)/8=37.5% which is faster then the 25% from Dark Escape (only recommeded with at least r8 Deldrimor rank). And gives you a netto energy gain of 3 energy (8-5) in those 6 seconds. If you look at a longer time, about 24 seconds, you regen (24/3)x4 pips=32 energy and the cost of 3x Dash is 15 energy total in those 24 seconds, so you have a netto gain of 17 energy overall'. So you have enough to maintain shadowform when you cast GoS, Dp and Sf after around 34 seconds,if you have a total pool of 50 energy. But this isn't hard with insignia's and runes for energy and a staff that provides +20 energy and +20% enchant and ofcourse the +3 rune for shadow arts. robertjan 03:17, 30 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I don't really understand your logic. If you gain 5 energy every 8 seconds (4 pips = 4 every 3 seconds), assuming you have to re-cast shadow form every 34 seconds, i work that out to be (34/8 = 4.25) 4.25*5.6=23.52 energy every time you need to renew SF, but that costs 15+5+10=30 energy to do, so energy is not maintainable. This isn't taking the cost of other skills into account either. <font color="#000">&not; Klump  eet  07:33 {GMT} 30-05-<font face="Times">MMVIII

I meaned that you gain a net of 3 energy every time you use Dash. 4 pips regens 8 energy in 6 seconds. If you calculate you have 8-5 (cost of dash)=3 energy net every 6 sec. But if you look at longer time, say 24 sec, you have used dash 3 times. In 24 sec you regen 24/3 (regen time of 1 energy)=8x4 (of 4 pips)=32 energy. This minus the cost of the 3x dash is 32-15=17 energy netto gain in 24 seconds. With +20% sf last 38 seconds. In those 14 sec you have used dash 2x which is 10 energy. In this 14 sec you also regen aprox 20 energy with your 4 pips. 20-10=netto 10 energy gain. 17+10=27 energy total. If you have a pool of 50 energy this will result in -3 energy every 37-38 seconds which isn't much.
 * That's basically the same as what you said before, and it's still wrong. <font color="#000">&not; Klump eet  07:53 {GMT} 30-05-<font face="Times">MMVIII

Oh damn i forgot the shadow steps etc.:S So only Dash isn't an option :(. What about using Armor of Mist with 12 in water magic, 6 in air magic (so GoS affects 2 spells) and 15 in shadow. With +20% enchant armor of mist will last 22 sec and with glyph of swiftness it has 22.5 sec cooldown. This result in a total faster movement of (33x22)/23 (because of the 1 sec cast)=32% overall increased run speed at the cost of 10 energy every 22 seconds. Then you could remove Dwarven stability and dash and still hold an extra shadow step skill. 15 in shadow form is still enough cause with +20% it still last for 36 sec instead of 36.4 sec (with 16 in shadow arts). This is still much faster as Dark Escape and hasn't the energy management problems Dash has.robertjan 04:08, 30 May 2008 (EDT)
 * its not only unmaintainable because of shadowsteps. you need 30 energy every ~30 seconds just to keep up shadowform. lets say you dont recast on recharge and do it every 32 seconds. you'll use dash 4 times, costing you 20 energy. since you only regain slightly over 40 energy in those 32 seconds, you'd be left with slightly over 20.  at this rate with 50 energy you could go through 3 cycles of shadowform before youd either have to stop and regen energy or stop using dash for some time. 76.98.149.51 12:05, 30 May 2008 (EDT)

[build prof=Assassin/Elementalist water=12 Shadow=11+1+3 Airma=4 Deadly=3][Armor of Mist][Dash][Glyph of Swiftness][Deadly Paradox][Shadow Form][Dark Prison][Death's Charge]["I Am Unstoppable!"][/build] Something like that? Using dash to cover AoM's downtime would still probably be ok on energy... <font color="#000">&not; Klump eet  08:15 {GMT} 30-05-<font face="Times">MMVIII

Yep i meaned that :P I changed the build and putted a discription in usage. I also noted that you can't run on the dash/dwarven stability combi, because you haven't enough energy management for that. The combination I used is 12,6,15. Thanks for your comments :)robertjan 04:34, 30 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Is it necessary to have both Dark Prison and Death's Charge? It seems like Dark Prison will kill your energy, and an AoE Shadow Step like Heart of Shadow might be more useful if somehow you get caught in a mob (it even provides a heal for the off chance that something should go wrong). I like Armor of Mist, though, it looks better now. =P -Mike 07:18, 30 May 2008 (EDT)

Hmm good suggestion. changed it :). Its also pretty good if you god stucked and /stuck doesn't work or takes to long to type.robertjan 07:29, 30 May 2008 (EDT)
 * tbh, i like Dark Escape better, mainly because of Signet of Judgment--one of the more annoying things to get through shadow form while running, and completely armor-ignoring. yes it's a bit slower, but more secure, imo.--Reason.decrystallized 07:42, 30 May 2008 (EDT)

okay, the problem with the build as-is is energy. maintaining shadow form costs you 30 energy every 30+ seconds--roughly three pips of regen. maintaining armor of mist costs you 10 energy every 22.5 seconds--almost a pip and a half. you've got a net energy LOSS already, forget shadow stepping.--Reason.decrystallized 13:18, 30 May 2008 (EDT)

Personally I just use this:

[build prof=A/E air=12 deadly=3 sha=12+1+3][Glyph of Swiftness][Deadly Paradox][Shadow Form][Dwarven Stability][Dark Escape][Dash][Heart of Shadow][Death's Charge][/build]

I managed to run Droks easily, even without "I Am Unstoppable!". Selket Shadowdancer 10:10, 3 June 2008 (EDT)

FTR: Non-infused armor + spectral agony = this build pwned, for those trying Marhans. Tai 17:29, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 * ...so get your armor infused.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  22:06, 4 June 2008 (EDT)

More Running Areas
I've had a person Run me, with this build, to all Asuran Cities and all Norn Cities. <font color="Red">Lord <font color="Orange"> of <font color="Red"> Mudkips  09:30, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

I am unstoppable
is pointless, just bring booze.-- Phail   Tock  A guide to this user. 13:59, 7 June 2008 (EDT)
 * So I should make about 1.2k less just because I want an extra skill slot EACH RUN? Did you think about that at all Tock?--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  16:47, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

DE and Dash
how does that work? they cancel eachother out.-- Phail   Tock  A guide to this user. 14:02, 7 June 2008 (EDT)
 * You use one after the other obviously. Selket Shadowdancer 14:12, 7 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Omg...you can't be serious tock.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  14:18, 7 June 2008 (EDT)
 * yeah but if Dark Escape lasts forever then when do you have time for Dash?-- Phail [[Image:Lord Belar Epic Fail.jpg|19px]]  Tock  A guide to this user. 14:28, 7 June 2008 (EDT)
 * After Dark escape ends, any time you need to deaggro, before you start the dark escape chain, after a shadow step.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  14:30, 7 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Also take into account use of Deadly Paradox ends your current stance, and the length of Dark Escape also depends on Deldrimor Rank. Selket Shadowdancer 15:21, 7 June 2008 (EDT)

Droks
is great with this... [build prof=A/E air=12 deadly=3 sha=12+1+3][Glyph of Swiftness][Deadly Paradox][Shadow Form][Dwarven Stability][Drunken Master][Heart of Shadow][Optional][Death's Charge][/build] Just maintain Shadow Form, Use Both Dwarven Stability and Drunken Master, you run like 33% faster and no knockdowns if you bring alchohal. And if you get stuck use Heart of Shadow to get you out of the way.-- Phail   Tock  A guide to this user. 20:06, 7 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Alchohol is costly for running. Id rather not spend 2k a run on alchohol when I could just use the build on teh page and it would cost me 0. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]]  Ressmonkey (talk)  20:15, 7 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Well, it might be worth noting if you're going for the title anyway, but definitely not on the main bar. -Mike 22:04, 7 June 2008 (EDT)

That combi doesn't work at all since Drunken Master is a stance and will be canceled when using Deadly Paradox after 35 seconds...and it has 60 seconds cooldown. It only work with this build: http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:D/A_Dervish_Drunk_Runner You never get out of energy since all 5 energy enchantments gain their energy cost back after they end and Drunken Master last 180 seconds since there isn't a stance that cancels it.The pré is that you only need intoxications rank 1 (from the cheapest beer, this counts as drunk for the full skill benefit) upon activation and then again after 3 minutes. But you can't use other stances in this time, so it won't work with this build :Srobertjan 04:03, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

i like this build
i ran from Gunnar's hold to Rata Sum on my sin with this build i luv it...i'm thinkin about tryin the Droknar's forge run i can do it on my war, but it take a little longer than i would like...aftr watchin that movie by Veoh i think i'll try it...but i always have an open space bcuz i dont kno wat to put there i tried Flame djinns haste but its juss a bit more straying on enrgy than i would like and i cut it close 3 to many times...heart of shadows usually juss moves me about an inch away from where i use it...so idk wat else to use
 * I'd only use this build on runs that aren't possible with other running builds, aka, this build is slow, but can go anywhere. For something like droks, it's better to take a faster running build. Oh, and why would you be using Flame Djinns? It isn't maintainable, doesn't nothing extra for you, is in fire magic, and the dark escape + Dwarven stability combo works out perfectly (at 7 deldrimor and better).--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  12:23, 23 June 2008 (EDT)

7-02 Update
With the recharge of Shadow Form increased to 60 seconds this build is non longer viable for what it was intended for. Seraph781 13:22, 3 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Shadow Form always had a 60 second recharge; that's what Glyph of Swiftness+Deadly Paradox is for. This is one of the few builds that was untouched by the nerf. ــмıкε  нaшк  13:23, 3 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Fucking nerf... --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]] Ressmonkey (talk)  13:29, 3 July 2008 (EDT)
 * It was obvious that they would do something, although reverting the buff would have been more than enough. >.> ــмıкε  нaшк  13:31, 3 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Onoez 50% less domage as a runner, that must truly hurt. God  box    13:48, 3 July 2008 (EDT)
 * You have to wand the mobs so you can aggro them and laugh at them, you know. ~.~ ــмıкε  нaшк  13:53, 3 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Wow I must have been drunk when I wrote that, my bad. Seraph781 15:01, 3 July 2008 (EDT)

S. Shivs
Can this build run through all the S. Shiverpeak areas/outposts?
 * yes--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  05:30, 5 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Easy when infused. Cause you have mursaat there :P if you run to Grotto :)

easy running=more paying ?
I was changing outposts with my monk a bit to look how many players gw has there when I saw people spamming chat with running Beacons -> Drok for 5k :O. Maybe its just me but i remember that for the perma form update people ran for 2k to drok (sometimes 2.5) and now, when a baby could run with his eyes closed, they ask 5k.....:S. What happened, are there almost no runners so they make higher prices because of a high wanted or are people scamming everything :P...?robertjan 10:56, 15 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Runs are still 2k. They're just stupid.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  12:10, 15 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Heh heh... Just to test, I charged 5k for a run to Droks, quickly got a full party and made a lot more money than normal. So no, it's not the runners who are stupid, but the runnees. Either that or they haven't played since the run was +5k. --[[Image:Gah Doomspike 3.jpg]] 14:48, 16 December 2008 (EST)

Good to know
For people starting running with this. Make sure you reactivate the sf chain after 30 seconds if DE (Dark Esacpe) ends. Cause if you renew DE and use the sf chain after 36 sec (so 6 sec after you casted DE again) dDE is removed cause its a stance. robertjan 04:33, 21 July 2008 (EDT)

continuous running!
ok i am a runner myself and tried alot of variants this build is not op imo. to maximize the build with no downtime on running during SF duration: Drop dwarven stability and dash add i am unstoppable and armor of mist and put 11 in armor of mist-33% run speed with armor bonus. so therefore u have dark escape and armor of mist to keep a constant pace of running. just my 2 cents! :) Adacer 12:19, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Use Dwarven Stability and Dark Escape. WIth high enough rank you can maintain Dark Escape until you need to recast Shadow Form. Selket Shadowdancer 05:14, 11 August 2008 (EDT)

im REALLY bad at builds. HELP ME!!!!
I don't have enough attribute points to make air magic 3, fire magic 12, and shadow arts 16 with runes. How do you do it??? (i'm lv20 and using the flame djinn's haste variation)-Rabidwolff55 18:20, 8 August 2008 (EDT)
 * There are two quests that each give you 15 attribute points. --71.229 18:31, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

Really? what would those be?-Rabidwolff55 18:36, 8 August 2008 (EDT)
 * No idea. --71.229 18:46, 8 August 2008 (EDT)
 * lulz 18:52, 8 August 2008 (EDT)
 * They should be before you leave to the main continents in Factions and Nightfall, or sometime in the Crystal Desert in Prophecies. Seeing as you're running an Assassin, however, you should do gw:Lost_Treasure and gw:An_Unwelcome_Guest. ــмıкε  нaшк  18:58, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

better after nerf
Its better for people with low ranks now. R6 DS is already enough to keep DE up for 29.12 sec :P. Before it was R8 :Probertjan 05:06, 11 August 2008 (EDT)

Dash
Is really not needed, drop for optional slot imo. Selket Shadowdancer 05:12, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Dash is 5 seconds of 50% faster and the best deaggroing skill in the game. No.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  14:51, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
 * And u need that when you cant be touched because? Selket Shadowdancer 18:51, 13 August 2008 (EDT)
 * you CAN be touched, just not by much.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized   In real life, pokemons would be used as sex toys.  18:59, 13 August 2008 (EDT)
 * You may not be able to run over traps with just the 25% IMS, and if the mobs you fight against have PBAoE, then you'll want to unaggro them as quickly as possible. ــмıкε  нaшк  19:04, 13 August 2008 (EDT)
 * i was thinking giant stomp and signet of judgment, but yeah, that too.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized   In real life, pokemons would be used as sex toys.  19:17, 13 August 2008 (EDT)

Air Magic?
What's the point in any points in Air Magic? I guess you don't have to put them anywhere else, so may as well... but they aren't needed at all, right (except occasionally helping the recharge of DC/DP)? Tgannon83 00:04, 13 August 2008 (EDT)
 * You don't REALLY need points in deadly arts or in Air magic, but with higher air magic you can reduce the cost of your shadow steps, and with higher deadly arts...that one skill lasts a bit longer. The Air magic one is better so...mind as well.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  00:20, 13 August 2008 (EDT)
 * You could also take a Spear/Axe/Sword of Enchanting+Air Magic offhand, although it doesn't make much of a difference. ــмıкε  нaшк  18:43, 13 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Staff gives more energy tho.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  21:37, 13 August 2008 (EDT)
 * how does air magic reduce the cost of shadow steps?--Vgfanatic2 21:24, 13 September 2008 (EDT)
 * he means recharge b/c GoS. <font color="#0099FF">CABOSE (LVPoW) "Hey chicka bum bum!" 21:33, 13 September 2008 (EDT)

Umbral grotto to rata sum
Can't run this, at least not well, as the incubus use soulrending shriek. Even with a cover enchant they use it multiple times, causing instant death. | Intemet  Internet  |  16:35, 5 October 2008 (EDT)
 * You have to go all the way around, down to the area where the plant is for GW2.-- ツ <font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva" color ="black">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva" color="black">Assassin  16:37, 5 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Yeah, sorry for this stupid comment. Figured the route out about 20 minutes after i posted...i had been trying to go due west through the forest previously. This build really can replace nearly all running builds! I've made it anywhere ive ever needed to go. |  Intemet  Internet  |  19:17, 20 October 2008 (EDT)

What Dwarven Rank do you NEED for Perma?
^^awnser please =)I R oGre 21:28, 11 November 2008 (EST)
 * You don't need any; Dwarven Stability is only there to make Dash and Dark Escape last longer, so you can run faster longer. ــмıкε  нaшк  21:30, 11 November 2008 (EST)
 * Should this build be archived since the change to SF is almost impossible to E-Manage? SuperJ 23:50, 11 December 2008 (EST)
 * 30 energy / ~25 seconds to perma. that's really not hard.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized    I frenzy-healsig.  23:59, 11 December 2008 (EST)
 * It is? U gain 4 ene/3 sec with normal regeneration = 32 ene/24 secs. Well, lets say 33, since it lasts a bit more than 25 secs. Gunnm 03:07, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * Well yea, if your ONLY casting SF, with other skills it takes the energy away more so its harder to keep up casting for SF. If someone could do it I'd love to see it. SuperJ 16:10, 12 December 2008 (EST)

Its not as fast for running because of more casting and actually requires skill to maintain, but the energy is bulletproof if you use arcance echo with auspicious incantation. ---  Ressmonkey (talk)  19:28, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * ooh, sexy.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized   I frenzy-healsig.  20:42, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * Theorycraft or tested? I'm thinking the recharge on echo will be too long.  Life [[Image:Aura of Faith.jpg|19px]] 20:44, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * I know it works to perma shadow form. It takes some practice since you have about 3 seconds (seems shorter) of leeway on recasting the echoed shadow form.  Its not as good as A/E SF runner but it works, which might be more then u can say for A/E now. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]]  Ressmonkey (talk)  21:02, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * i've HAVE tested A/Me ... it's a little hard, but it works.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized   I frenzy-healsig.  21:05, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * Im leaning towards archiving this and making a new build as A/Me. Comments? --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]]  Ressmonkey (talk)  21:57, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * I agree. A/Me is a bit harder to control (needs some practise), but WAY better energy managment. U can afford to use dwarfen + dark escape all the time. Gunnm 15:37, 23 December 2008 (EST)

I'm so sad they nerfed this...It was so much fun and easy so you could run guildies and stuff...it's nice of a-net to kill like half the farming builds and some running builds (like this...). I know SF was kinda overpowered, but it was still tons of fun (and its PvE, who cares if we are overpowered)A-net= :( Hippo God 21:52, 14 December 2008 (EST)

Shadow Form becomes tighter on energy
I don't think this needs deletion, its still doable. --Chieftain Alex 08:31, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * Please explain how, as I'd love to know, I use this build frequently. SuperJ 18:52, 13 December 2008 (EST)


 * In fact, it is not doable at any reasonable speed. SF lasts 26 seconds with an enchanting mod and lets assume you can reapply it .00001 seconds before it ends.  In that 26 seconds, you will gain 34.58 energy (assuming 4 pips = 1.33 energy/sec).  SF = 10 energy, DP = 15 energy, and GoS = 5 energy.  34.58 - 10 - 15 - 5 = 4.58 energy you get to spend every 26 seconds.  That means that if you use Dark Escape on recharge, you will be able to use another 5 energy skill every 526 seconds.  That includes dwarven stability, I am Unstoppable, or any heal.  So please explain how that is doable. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]]  Ressmonkey (talk)  14:52, 14 December 2008 (EST)

It is doable, it is just not as reliable. You cannot go nonstop as before, you must find resting spots to regen energy. There are plenty out there but, it slows down this build a huge amount. It is probably better to find other options for popular runs, like Droks. --<font face="Segoe Print" size=2 color=black>Xilarth The Wise  22:04, 15 December 2008 (EST)
 * This was never good for droks, D/A has that. But see the above mini skill bar for a similar build that can go nonstop. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]]  Ressmonkey (talk)  22:06, 15 December 2008 (EST)
 * ShadowFail is moar like it. Bye bye Easy peasy Drok Runs and HELLO QQing! Commence! Cry me a river! XD --Ulterion 21:11, 22 December 2008 (EST)
 * You're forgetting to incorporate, ressmonkey, that you have more than 30 energy to start. say you start with 50, then you have an extra 20 energy to waste :P nah but really, not worth it anymore [[Image:Tai_sig_Image_78.png]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">15:43, 23 December 2008 


 * I have a maximum of 60 energy under SF. And i find it hard to maintain energy. I basically stop every once in a while a let energy regenerate. This build however, is not viable. Or at least Dash isnt. Remove Dash, add Death's Charge and "I am Unstoppable!" and your good. [[Image:Defy Pain.jpg|19px]]Jonathan 18:47, 24 December 2008 (EST)


 * Lol watched some sins attempt various runs for me with this they all epic failed miserably.

Archive build, since no longer effective
(See arguments above)


 * I think that this should be moved to Good or sth cos: 1.Energy is an issue here 2.you dont run for like ~10s or less cos recasting DP will cancel DE 3.energy issue once again 4.SF runner is now behind the other running builds ;/--Kamis
 * Completely agree, just tested the build, and it's no good. Shadow form cannot be maintained without the greatest hazzle. Best chance is to run through mobs, then get energy back while trying not to loose your last 40-50 hitpoints, and then I wouldn't call this a runner build. It's a waste of platinum right now, and calling it good is just a plain lie. --Staun 15:17, 13 February 2009 (EST)
 * Please, if you agree with us, write it here so we can archive it. Thanks -[[Image:KamisSig.png]]<font face="calibri" color="black" variant="small caps">10:24, 14 February 2009
 * SF runners mostly suck, but I wouldn't vote to archive one of the best options for a sin to run that there is. -- -Ch ao s-   10:33, 14 February 2009 (EST)
 * Lol, you didn't rad that carefuly Oo. We were talking bout slow and energy mang problems build which no one will use cos of those reasons. If not Archive, it should be at least moved to Others Imo. -[[Image:KamisSig.png]]<font face="calibri" color="black" variant="small caps">12:52, 14 February 2009
 * Btw, Chaos, do you read my every single post or are you just watching recently changes? I feel a bit weird, lol xD -[[Image:KamisSig.png]]<font face="calibri" color="black" variant="small caps">12:55, 14 February 2009
 * I stalk you and take photos of you, my wall is covered with them. I'm afraid of taking initiative and starting an intimate discussion about how I need you in my life, so I came to PvX just to reply to each of your posts in the hope of perhaps getting your attention. So.. Ehmm.. Now that I got into talking... Will you.. Will you marry me? Don't say "no", I can't live with getting rejected again! -- -Ch ao s-   13:20, 14 February 2009 (EST)
 * Lol, you're taking things to serious >< and btw. now that sounds weird :S -[[Image:KamisSig.png]]<font face="calibri" color="black" variant="small caps">13:32, 14 February 2009
 * You think I wrote it for sounding normal? ;o -- -Ch ao s-   13:37, 14 February 2009 (EST)
 * L O L xD -[[Image:KamisSig.png]]<font face="calibri" color="black" variant="small caps">14:05, 14 February 2009
 * It still gets you from A to B, so no need for an archive, but definatly not worth 5-5. Andy 16:32, 14 February 2009 (EST)
 * You have two choices with this now one being to mostly run at normal speeds or run out of energy and fail and get called noob by 5-7 noobs you are running. --Anonimous. D: 16:52, 14 February 2009 (EST)
 * ^ --[[Image:Tai_Sig.png]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">16:54, 14 February 2009 
 * Has anyone tried using some cupcakes while running with this build? My friend ran me to droks this way, and he claims it's a little less intensive on the energy. 75.4.128.216 18:35, 14 February 2009 (EST)
 * just means you have more base energy and don't need to use energy on an IMS --[[Image:Tai_Sig.png]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">18:36, 14 February 2009 
 * Reset Indent ftw. And it's epic slow, agreed, and no energy for an IMS (dash every 2 SFs, yay!), but, it's the safest run build out there. And people hate change. [[Image:Ride_the_Lightning.jpg|19px]] Good night L A 

last perma on PvX archived? couldn't we just vote it down to other/good and keep it there? -- &mdash;The preceding trolling attempt was made by Chaos (talk). 15:04, 17 February 2009 (EST)
 * that would be vote manipulation, and this needed an archive. permas had their heyday but now they're just too slow. --[[Image:Tai_Sig.png]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">15:06, 17 February 2009 


 * not if we get the "great" votes removed for a valid reason. Permas still run Icedome.. We should rename this to Icedome Perma or something. -- &mdash;The preceding trolling attempt was made by Chaos (talk) . 15:16, 17 February 2009 (EST)
 * Archive:A/Me Blue Ice Dome Ninja --[[Image:Tai_Sig.png]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">15:17, 17 February 2009 
 * If that one still works we unarchive it imo. -- &mdash;The preceding trolling attempt was made by Chaos (talk) . 15:20, 17 February 2009 (EST)
 * My god just chill. It works but it's slow. same with this one. that's why they're archived. --[[Image:Tai_Sig.png]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">15:23, 17 February 2009 
 * What's to chill with, the way I mixture with the running section all the time? -- &mdash;The preceding trolling attempt was made by Chaos (talk) . 15:24, 17 February 2009 (EST)
 * the way you're trying to "revolutionize" the PvE section by changing running builds --[[Image:Tai_Sig.png]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">15:25, 17 February 2009 
 * the running section is the only section I really know how to improve. -- &mdash;The preceding trolling attempt was made by Chaos (talk) . 15:26, 17 February 2009 (EST)
 * I find it amusing how a build that is still very popular and still widely used is archived for being slow yet the A/Me version that is vetted is actually slower. Selket Shadowdancer 19:35, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The state of the A/Me is crap. It should use auspicious incantation and spam dash with Dwarven Stability.  And it is faster than this because this has no good way of managing energy. --- <font color="Blue"> Ressmonkey  (talk) 19:45, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * If I recall correctly, and I cba checking, the only SF runner we have vetted is for running Ice Dome. -- -Ch  ao  s-   11:06, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Nope, Archive:A/Me Blue Ice Dome Ninja was archived and is the only permaform runner that's vetted, but it was recently changed to become fast instead of shit.  And it is a lot faster than this because with this build, you only have energy to use dark escape every other time you use shadow form.  Thats 16 seconds every 45 seconds of 25% ims, while that build can spam dash such that 6 out of 8 seconds can be at 50% ims.  Even though cast tiems are longer, the a/me is still faster.  And the reason people still use an a/e to run is because they suck ass and cant get a/me SF timing right. --- <font color="Blue"> Ressmonkey  (talk) 13:59, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

tl;dr, just run with a Derv. -- -Ch  ao  s-   19:30, 21 August 2009 (UTC)