User talk:Excluded/Rt/any Passive Spirits

Discuss, children. ~  Ӎiñon  08:10, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * partner in pve crime with a ST rit? [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] Chieftain   Alex  11:48, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Looks like it would work. nice healing with nice regen for those areas with an annoying amount of degen, to name a place, The Dragon's Lair, Domain of Health Draining, finally a solution :D Dacookiemaster 12:19, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Seems like a waste of a party slot to get some health regen. PewPew   QQ   14:25, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * This is awfully meh. It really doesn't do much outside of regen, and it's a player bar that you could be using to put to much better use than this. I would say that it would be a decent hero build, but there's no way I'd trade an SoS, SoGM, or ST rit for this. If you really need the regen, bring "Never Surrender!" on somebody with a few of PwK/Divine Healing/Heaven's Delight. -- Jai . -  14:54, November 18 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm thinking ZM/ZBs where you end up with 5 rits in party chat all wanting to join you. -- [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] Chieftain  Alex  15:07, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * ^ Case in point, both ZQs for the past 3 days I've had 4 rits no monks zzz. You have no resto builds on PvX. Fo' shame. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 17:41, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Nothing current anyway. I did think this looked familiar. [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] Chieftain   Alex  18:03, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * This is decidedly better. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 19:58, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * @PewPew; It's not only "some health regen" it's party-wide +4regen AND more stackable regen on top of that; a strong party-heal and strong condition removal and a spot heal for when the healer you're playing with is bad. The spirits are alot more durable and Rejuvenation lasts a long time. Awfully meh from a 7H viewpoint. We joke about "7h or sc only" but, seriously. Also; not sure if this *could* be used on a hero, although I don't think I'd advise it. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 22:56, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Not to interrupt any important discussions, but rejuvenation is better than life if you're going to use rit lord-- Relyk 22:57, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

WELL
Unarchive it. ~  Ӎiñon  23:27, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Both of the bars are shit. Both are focused too much on party healing. If you want to go resto, bring a bar that actually has more than one spot heal. -- Jai . -  01:34, November 19 2011 (UTC)
 * There are two in the optionals. Why is this any different from UA monks or HB monks with one or two spot heals? ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 03:17, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Because monks have heal and smite and that's it, while rits can do like 15 different things (SoS, SoGM, ST, DwG, AP, Minion Bomber if you have to, Channeling-Resto hybrid, and so on). Monks are also still better healers because with UA you're getting around 130-231 health from Dwayna's and 218 from Patient, while having SoL (which is hella strong) and HP (111 party heal), along with having plenty of room for hex removal, condition removal, and stuff like Vigorous Spirit and Prot Spirit. And of course, there's the insta-res of UA. A resto rit can't match up to the healing power or a monk, it's as simple as that. And again, monks basically have nothing better to do while rits have a myriad of options. -- Jai . -  03:55, November 19 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, give me the exact UA bar to compare numbers against and I'll calc the HPS from both bars (and AoE heals) ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 04:35, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * . Also, HPS of party heals is stupid because the likelyhood that you'll be getting 100% of the healing 100% of the time is completely unrealistic. Spot party heals are better than party regen. Also, I'm going to laugh when you try to compare Life and Recup with Seed. -- Jai . -  05:02, November 19 2011 (UTC)
 * I said exact bar so we could do be balanced. You want the best heals from your build and I want the best from mine. This is also including energy regen and spamming heals on recharge (it is 100% from both, which will be balanced) measuring AoE hps and single target. Spirit Light is the strongest single-target heal. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 05:19, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I raise you an infuse health. Roland 08:58, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Lacks AoE healing. Infuse is overkill. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 09:07, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I was just comparing to your "spirit light is the strongest single-target heal". Roland 19:23, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Again, not that hard. Put UA as the elite, and leave the last part as optional because having a healer that doesn't adapt to the area is retarded. Patient heals for 218, which is exactly 30 more than Spirit Light's 188. That's also with 14 healing instead of 16. It's 236 at 16. And again, rit AoE heals can't compare with monk party heals, specifically SoL, because SoL is just retardedly powerful because it's an on-demand party heal that can easily heal for 200+ over the course of a few seconds. This is also at a disadvantage in energy because it starts off with 25 energy out of its pool going to spirits. And of course, if Recup dies in the middle of the battle, are you going to spend another 20 energy to get it back up? Oh, and no hex removal either. -- Jai . -  16:51, November 19 2011 (UTC)
 * Take Emphatic Removal for hexes, scratch out RL. Recup is 43s @ 14 resto anyway. Deja vu eles that spend half their bar for 20 fire magic overkill. Don't mean to sound too critical, we all love our own builds ya :D Fianchetto 17:58, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Too bad fire magic sucks. Roland 19:23, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Only difference is this is worth it. Extra spawning and Restoration means the spirits last longer, have more health/armour and meet higher breakpoints. +4 constant regen is a gem for lazy monks. The rest is just a bonus. 50% less conditions for physical parties for further easymode and the party heal is on demand and powerful from Life. It lacks hex removal, but it's rarely important in PvE. Just slot some on another character. Now think hard; when was the last time you were in a PUG? How many Ritualists did you have in the party? After SoS and ST, there are no other good builds for humans to run. This offers a good replacement for a party-healing monk. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 20:01, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Suggestions: if your spirits are so strong, and have short recharge, why Summon Spirits (over, say Soothing Memories+PwK for "party heals"). Also Rejuv>Recup if there's not many allies. Also RL+Recup is only +4 instead of +3 regen (elite Mending?) Fianchetto 20:22, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * From what I can gather, summon spirits was there to enhance the healing ability of the now-variant, was-mainbar Rejuvenation. Also because your elite isn't Soul Twisting Recuperation is expensive with a long recharge - you may want to move it about between mobs. [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] Chieftain  Alex  20:29, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Summon Spirits because your spirits are expensive and have a long recharge; it would be very clunky without Summon. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 21:40, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Hexes aren't important in PvE, wut? Just from a melee perdspective, there's tons of areas with stuff like Empathy, Insidious, Faintheartedness, Blurred Vision, Ice Spikes, Deep Freeze, Frozen Burst, SS, Crippling Anguish, Inteptitude, Clumsiness, Wandering Eye, Imagined Burden, Soothing Images, Shared Burden, Spirit Shackles, Spirit of Failure, Price of Failure, Meekness, Reckless Haste, Shadow of Fear, Spoil Victor.... All of those are common on monsters across all campaigns. And "slotting some on another character" is stupid when this is aimed solely at PuG groups, which are either not going to listen to what you tell them to bring, or they won't use it properly. And if you get more than 2-3 of the same profession in a group, just kick the fuckers and run heroes. By the time it would take you to make up a party, I could already finish the ZB. Also, you're forgetting SoGM, DwG, and minion bombing. Oh, and the Rt/N minion bomber got archived even when people were using the exact same argument as you're making right now. -- Jai . -  20:36, November 19 2011 (UTC)
 * Not the same thing, Jai. Rt/N Minion Bombers are terrible and inefficient. The lightning damage they exude using a max of 8 minions for their wall with less health and probably less armour even with Spawning. It was just poor. This offers a niche for party healing and extra targets to take pressure off the team. Also, well done for mentioning all the bad hexes. Now name an area where they all appear together. gg. In reality your team needs no more than one or two hex removals, which a monk (in a PUG you will have two healers) will take. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 21:06, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Rt/N bomber is inferior to N/any bomber, and this is inferior to a monk. This has inferior single-target healing and inferior party healing. And, as I said, it has no room for hex removal, which is a point against it whether or not anyone else is bringing it. Both were/are being argued to be in buildspace because, while they were inferior to other player options, there was an apparent influx of rits in Zquests (maybe try actually picking people instead of inviting the first 7 people you see?) and somehow that justifies the bad that that they're bad builds. Also, considering this is a PuG-only build, how the hell are you assuming that the monks are going to bring anything but Orison and Breeze? -- Jai . -  14:41, November 27 2011 (UTC)
 * Because I make them run something that isn't shit? Giving them a chance to run something that is seemingly helpful from PvX always makes them more happy to switch builds than something I have saved. I actually prefer this to a monk for it's extreme AoE healing when using my ER prot. We may have 0 hex removals in the team, but conditions are the only really annoying thing in PvE; hexes, if you can power heal through them, don't matter so much. Yes, there are a few bad areas but you actually do have room to slot remove hex on the bar, and someone else can bring SY and overpower them completely. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 15:05, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Comparisons
"At level 14 (0 Spawning Power), Rejuvenation does the equivalent of 5 pips of health regeneration for a total of 38 seconds distributed amongst the party members (1 party member under its effect will receive 38 seconds while 4 party members will receive 9.5 seconds, etc.)." Taken from the Wiki for quick analysis. Now, this is stackable regen. With Rt Lord and all the Spawning it will be more like 6 pips for 45 seconds. On top of that you have +4 partywide regen from Recuperation. So the party will always be under maximum regen. And you think this is bad/harder to use than any other Rit build on the wiki currently? The fact that there are no resto bars is appalling. So two skills + Summon Spirits which makes them last infinitely longer and not very clunky, +spot heals and condition removal. Your views are seriously fucked if you're not seeing the bigger picture here and shitting on it just for lack of hex removal. This needs a vote wipe and an open mind. ~  Ӎiñon  15:16, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Well you know thats the same arguement as "why can't I bring ER on my ele to use a max spec Healing Breeze on everyone in compass range".. which sounds like a shit idea right? [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] Chieftain   Alex  15:33, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, ER prots do take Heal Breeze, so I don't get where you're going with that. My point still stands; regen is amazing and autowin. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 16:40, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't say they do plz S h a d o w  16:50, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Also, this is being compared against ritualist bars that do completely different things. Why? Are you simply ignoring the Restoration line completely in PvE? I will get some exact numbers later, but think about this: When you join a human team to do anything, how many monks do you have? Right. Two. Because no human can be fucked to hybrid with support, so you dump it all on two healers. SoL has an edge, but it's not constant and can do fuck all. One bar will have hex removal, but why would you want it here? And what rit bar HAS hex removal? They have no choice. Similar to the ER prot with no hex removal. Shall we trash that for being terrible too? ~  Ӎiñon  17:21, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, I think this should be compared to a Healer's Boon monk. It has as many benefits. Slot for res if you really want it, only thing it lacks is hex removal. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 17:37, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Fuck it man. Its Rt/any, if the downfall of this build was hex removal you could slot Holy Veil/cure hex. [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain  <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  18:02, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Already suggested Remove; you're not going to take points out just for the heals on those. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 18:08, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

This whole section is massive fucking fail. -- Jai . -  05:10, November 29 2011 (UTC)
 * Why? ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 05:17, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

OK, let me lay out my points for you. because relieving pressure is bad? ~  Ӎiñon  05:59, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Provides +10hp regen (20hps, but not limited to) party-wide constant.
 * Strong party wide spike heal on a 12s recharge~
 * Strong condition removal that can eat through a stack of conditions
 * It is obvious the bar is run alongside a prot bar with single target heals.
 * High-armoured/health spirits mean they can tank for your team during tough fights.
 * No energy problems as the only time you cast is to renew spirits, move them and cure conditions occasionally.
 * Lazyway due to not having to do anything to make a contribution to the team. Pugs luv that.
 * ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 05:45, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
 * "Combined with Recovery, allies effectively receive 75% damage reduction due to burning, or reduce overall pressure from other conditional and environmental effects by 50%."

I don't understand how this is more efficient than what we have. If you're using this then you're obviously requiring a dedicated prot character(SY/ST), and at that point you have 2 people doing nothing else but spamming heals/prots. Thats retarded in pve. I'll just bring 4 hybrid characters that autowin pve for me and stop using shitty ass builds cuz people are lazy. Lazy is no excuse for shitty. Roland 23:16, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't be silly; when did you last run an 8 human pug team with hybrid support? Never. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 23:20, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Who runs pugs anymore >.> Roland 02:18, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Stupid argument; I was just in two full human teams for the ZB. ALot of people were. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 03:11, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Should I start running henchies too? Because henchies are still better than most pugs. Hint hint, they're both ridiculously inferior to 7H. -- Jai . -  03:30, November 30 2011 (UTC)
 * Not really; only if they're running hero bars from pvx. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 03:48, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Pugs are generally bad. Also, they're inability to listen to directions is worse than henchies, so henchies beat out pugs. Either way, I'd rather use 7hps or rojway...and this build would be placed in neither of those. Roland 04:18, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Then it isn't for you, so why are you putting it into the wrong context when you know it's purpose? Also, you're wrong about pugs. You get idiots who won't swap builds or listen to you, and that's when you kick them and take someone less retarded who talk and listen. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 04:38, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
 * If you're up for kicking people, then why are you accepting 3 or 4 rits? -- Jai . -  05:08, November 30 2011 (UTC)

My idea
[build prof=Rt/ Spawning=12+1+1 Restoration=12+2][Spirit Channeling][Mend Body and Soul][Spirit Light][Rejuvenation][Life][Protective Was Kaolai][Summon Spirits][Flesh Of My Flesh][/build]

Take Death Pact Sig if youre with a UA and the only reason you will need to use your res is to get him back up fast with alot of energy.
 * Upon further consideration you might want to consider Expel Hexes or Empathic Removal over SC as your energy isn't really that bad and there are no good rit resto choices other than Spirit Light Weapon or Preservation both of which have draw backs. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 92.28.212.24 (talk) at 21:36, 28 November 2011 (UTC).

This is getting retarded
This build is bad, and the sooner it's deleted the better.

First off, we've already established that PvX is not going to vett a PuG group, and yet you (Minion) continue to argue for it ad nauseum.

You're assuming way more things than any build should to get vetted: You're assuming that there aren't already monks (or ER eles) available since those are superior to this build. You're also assuming that you already have at least 3 rits already in the party running SoS, SoGM, and ST. It's also debatable whether you'd want to run this over a DwG or Rit Minion Bomber. Furthermore, you're assuming that whatever given location requires half of your bar to be dedicated to party heals. This means you're assuming that there won't be ready access to damage reduction like Enfeebling Blood, Save Yourselves, Shelter, Union, Prot Spirit, SoA, Aegis, Panic, etc. If there is already damage mitigation in the party, the need for big party heals will be reduced drastically, rendering half of this build redundant. Another thing you're assuming is that your spirits aren't going to die, again rendering half your build useless, which suggests that you'd already be running a crapload of other spirits and/or minions, which really is unrealistic.

From a purely technical standpoint, this is at a big disadvantage to a monk simply because it has to burn a shitload of energy at the start of the battle and Rejuvenation must be cast every ~15 seconds, which is 2 pips of energy just devoted to that skill (and Siphon Spirit is netting you 3 energy per spirit or every 23 seconds, whichever is sooner, which is not going to do much to alleviate energy problems). The spot heals are lower than those on an HB or UA bar. And again, you have less room for optional stuff like hex removal, and one thing that you will not be able to get is Spotless Mind, which is a huge help for keeping a melee or somebody clean. And as I've mentioned before, the party healing is regen, which is inferior in general to a strong spot-party heal like HP or SoL.

I could keep going, but I think I've gotten my point across. -- Jai . -  05:32, November 30 2011 (UTC)
 * tl;dr-- Relyk 05:49, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it's way longer than it needed to be, but I just wanted Minion to shut the fuck up about this crap. -- Jai . -  05:56, November 30 2011 (UTC)
 * Rate it on it's merits, not what a ritualist can do better, or a monk. That is irrelevant. Sorry Jai, you've conjured a straw man. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 06:47, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Are you fucking kidding me dude? You've just made up your own rules for vetting, and are actually advocating against what policy says. Comparisons to other professions and other buidls is completely valid. -- Jai . -  11:29, November 30 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm agreeing with Jai. Minion, give up this build <font color="#ff8c00">S <font color="#ff4700">h <font color="#ff0000">a <font color="#d90000">d <font color="#b20000">o <font color="#8b0000">w  11:37, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

What does "tl.dr" mean? i see dat a lot, still i cant conjure what exactly it means, i just know its often used in this kind of walls... on topic: lazy bar is lazy, play more actively and ull see that that are far better options to perform this kind of role; also, "rate it on its merits, not on what a rit can do better", how can i not compare it with what rits do better?! thats mainly how ratings are achieved here... frenzy/healsignet build has the merit of incorporating in ur warrior both an ias and a heal, should i vote it for its merits?! not really... 83.240.216.138 12:52, 30 November 2011 (UTC) enormous
 * Means "too long; didn't read".
 * Tbh what is the purpose of pvx if not to document effective pve builds? the arguement of not finding enough rits in pve is amusing... any zaishen quest will have dozens of single professions trying to join. Also why the fuck have we dropped BoC for shitter siphon. [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain  <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  13:15, 30 November 2011 (UTC)


 * omg, too long didnt read... sooo obvious, i feel like a young boy who has just found out he pissed on his bed...  Geist tha burdill  Enormous 15:30, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The build sucks minion, and you have a really bad habit of ignoring extremely simple logic and becoming bull-headed whenever something you've worked on comes into question. Bro... we gotta put it down. ApplesaucePancakes 17:05, 30 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Thought i'd mention I was the one who changed BoC to Siphon because you have fairly few spirits and the energy on this bar is SOOOOO bad that you either need to have 50 energy with BoC to be able to cast everything and have a bit of energy for spot heals or you put alot of effort into getting as much energy from siphon as possible and assume you have an SoS to sap from. (Also you net 4 energy per cast, forgot to add the +1 for runes before) The bar with SC above is also me because imo Recup doesn't provide nearly enough healing for its cost and Rit Lord pretty much only provides +1 health regen for Recup which seems like a crap use for an elite. SC seems like the best use for that slot because having enough energy to use all your spirits + PwK and still have near max energy for spot heals is good. HerpDerp 21:22, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I haven't worked on it, I just see it's effectiveness as a party healer for a ritualist, of which there are no other alternatives for a ritualist. Comparing it to a monk role doesn't work because of the rarity of monks in PvE for pugs. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 21:51, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Heroes. PewPew   QQ   22:00, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It has been neglected, in trash, can we stop now please? <font color="#ff8c00">S <font color="#ff4700">h <font color="#ff0000">a <font color="#d90000">d <font color="#b20000">o <font color="#8b0000">w  22:02, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Here is what I suggest. Someone get a real resto bar vetted that you feel is appropriately strong for a rit who wants to go resto line. Then I will concede in dropping this. ~  Ӎiñon  22:03, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Should we vett a warrior tactics tank, assacaster, (general PvE) trapper, or maybe some ranger/sin/mesmer/warrior healing builds while we're at it?
 * You don't seem to be getting that a rit healer is not worth running. -- Jai . -  22:19, November 30 2011 (UTC)
 * 1. Healers are needed. Resto line heals. Tanks aren't needed, nor are trappers or assacasters (barrage>trap damage, daggers>sins casting) so that point was a bit dumb. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 23:00, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Try to keep any further comments constructive to the build or shut up. The build has been discussed to death at this point.-- Relyk 23:23, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

constructive buildstuff
I prefer BoC because there's no splitting to a random attribute line just for energy. 6e for a spirit which means you WILL have spare energy to cast during a battle. Also, you cast Life before entering battle, and because of Rt Lord, it will have recharged before ending, meaning you can end it prematurely. This is your on-demand AoE heal. ~  Ӎiñon  23:42, 30 November 2011 (UTC)


 * If you have 2 spirits on your bar BoC will give you 12 energy but cost you 10, so unless you're stopping for two seconds to re cast constantly while running around you will be casting it as you are about to engage a mob. So you net 2 energy. If you're treating life as mainbar you get 8. Which is the same as two siphon's which are 1/4 sec casting time and if you have an SoS can be used to get alot of energy. Also as youre about to engage a mob you need to spend 7.5 seconds casting all your stuff (Taking into account aftercast delay and assuming Rit Lord has no aftercast and assuming you're taking Life). &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by HerpDerp (talk &bull; contribs) 30.12.11.

Maths
Balanced comparison with maths and probable scenarios- delivered by Chthon. i.e. a guy with too much spare time. ~  Ӎiñon  09:30, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * TL;DR, not that I would have even cared to read it, because this build is still worse. <font color="#ff0000">Shadow Shadow02122011.gif <font color="#008000">Christmas Signature 10:07, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but when there is evidence to show your theorycraft on why this build is bad then you either read it and argue the numbers/scenario or you simply don't vote. 81.141.90.216 10:24, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Minion would've asked him probably to write something about it. <font color="#ff0000">Shadow Shadow02122011.gif <font color="#008000">Christmas Signature 10:25, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Your simple math
Well, what I think about this build, now we are all opening up or sth like that:
 * 1) First of all, this is a player build. Player builds that heal are only needed in ZM, and a simple HB heal can overrun this. You compared this build to the UA, and I wonder why, since UA is mostly used with Prots.
 * 2) Second of all, this build is highly energy-required. Recuperation and Rejuvenation are spirits, and I always sensed monsters will go after them very quickly. Simply saying: move them, increases the chance of them getting hit by AoE together. Replacing them means an extra 35 energy gone.
 * 3) Third of all, energy management. Spirit Siphon, 31% of your spirit's energy. You can use it twice and the netto gain results into no good after that. There goes your chance of getting the 35 energy.
 * 4) A positive point on this build: no other resto builds exist. But this point is of no reason when builds like SoS combine offensive and defensive skills into a perfect build. That perfect build exists in almost every team build. Other builds that combine well with the resto line are the Curses/Death Magic builds. They combine well because Necros have superior e-management.
 * 5) I don't care about the party heal. If you say: well, my team gets 4 pips of health regen and 12 health per second, I would throw a Savannah heat on it and neglect both of them.
 * 6) This build can be easily interrupted and has no hex removal.
 * 7) It's early and I may have several reasons to dislike it even more. <font color="#ff0000">Shadow Shadow02122011.gif <font color="#008000">Christmas Signature 10:37, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, I see why you dislike it so strongly, now. You have made some misunderstandings:
 * Healer's Boon? No one uses it anymore since Heal Party was nerfed and all monk bars run prots (who aren't bad). UA has two AoE heals and SoL is also AoE. This is why I primarily decided to compare it with UA.
 * With over 16 Spawning, the spirits are like tanks. Very durable armour-wise and health. If they were to be targeted, they would be doing your party a favour as spiritshields.
 * The energy management on this bar is far from tight. You cast your spirits and move them around with Summon Spirits to keep them alive. There is the choice of using Boon of Creation or Siphon Spirit. Siphon can be used twice on each spirit. After 4 uses, you will most certainly have refreshed your spirits or have a surplus amount of energy.
 * These SoS hybrids are hero builds. Humans don't tend to run damage and prot/heal on their own bar.
 * The AoE heals are mop-up heals. There are also two strong spot heals and heavy, spammable condition removal which a monk just cannot afford. Basically what these AoE heals do is the effect of casting Healing Burst once a second without aftercast.
 * It is impossible to take hex removal on a ritualist unless you gimp the build with Remove Hex, and it's just not worth it. You can take Empathic or some other /Mo removal on an off-hand character. Last I checked, there was nothing different about UA, Healer's Boon, Healing Burst or Rt Lord party heal to suggest this is more interruptible. The fact this one does not even have to cast is a major advantage on the subject of "interrupts". ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 19:16, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Heal Party is nerfed for PvP only.
 * They can't move, and when you move them, it hurts your energy.
 * Once, it removes all your spirits' energy in one time you know? That means using it over and over again will get you some 5 energy in return, which results in a netto gain of 0.
 * Hero builds can always be run on humans, it is not intended though. And run damage and prot/heal, no, we all run damage. And in pug situations, we have monks that can cast skills quickly and heal you instantly. We use Shelter and Union though for protection.
 * They are slow heals, I agree with you. Spirit Light heals for more, its casting time is 1, but AI is bad sometimes. However, it can be used only once every 4 second, while PS can be used once per 2 seconds. Netto, almost 2x the heal of PS results in more health gain. As energy management, monks are maybe a bit worse. However, they can get in the /E or /Me line and be fine.
 * Well, I agree, gimmicking is not nice. That's why we don't need to gimmick the monk builds.

<font color="#ff0000">Shadow  <font color="#008000">Christmas Signature 19:26, 3 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Sorry to break these WoT, but I had to point out something. Excluded said, all monk bars run prots (who aren't bad). This is (probably) my biggest issue with this build, you don't don't have prots and instead have a stupid amount of party healing.  Just run big prots(ST/SY) and DH/HD and SoL fulfill all the party healing you'll need along with providing utility in the form of prots and hex removal.  This build is simply overkill on healing while providing nothing else. Roland 20:15, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Because it's easier to fit PS/SoA/Aegis on an off-hand character than it is party healing. Of course, SY works too, so you have mop up here. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 20:34, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I already said that <font color="#ff0000">Shadow Shadow02122011.gif <font color="#008000">Christmas Signature 21:01, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * So. Did you read? ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 22:11, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Should I have? <font color="#ff0000">Shadow Shadow02122011.gif <font color="#008000">Christmas Signature 22:48, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * He took his time writing it. I think you should if you're going to argue fallacies to explain why you dislike this. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 22:50, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't need numbers to back up the truth <font color="#ff0000">Shadow Shadow02122011.gif <font color="#008000">Christmas Signature 22:51, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * derp? You're making false assumptions which is blurring your judgement. Better to read the facts before you jump to conclusions. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 23:23, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Wait..I feel as if you completely ignored what I said. On one hand, you seem to be advocating for hybrid by saying PS/SoA/Aegis on off-hand character, while earlier you said pugs never bring hybrids. And when I said this was overkill, I meant it was totally fucking inferior. Not that it still worked well with SY/ST. If you are using this build, you are essentially forcing 3 dedicated healers/protters. You're bringing this, some kind of prot character, and you're going to need some kind of spot-heals for when a massive spike of damage hits between your aoe heals. Stop trying to fight for a dead build(how many builds has this been now in past 30days..). I'm not sure anyone besides yourself thinks this is good. Roland 02:39, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

this build sucks &mdash; <font color="#CC0099">Skakid  Rally- kupo! 23:04, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * nou. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 23:23, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * He actually summarizes the whole thing. Thanks, Ska <font color="#ff0000">Shadow Shadow02122011.gif <font color="#008000">Christmas Signature 23:44, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Now if only you could tell me why. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 23:45, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I know I don't care to read, you know I don't care to read, but did you care to read? <font color="#ff0000">Shadow Shadow02122011.gif <font color="#008000">Christmas Signature 23:52, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I read everything. If I didn't, I could tell you why you are wrong. Science! ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 23:55, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I thought aliens :( <font color="#ff0000">Shadow Shadow02122011.gif <font color="#008000">Christmas Signature 00:01, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Stop spamming RC with these stupid trolling comments-- Relyk 04:02, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * @Roland; just bothering to read your comments, I see you have come to some poor conclusions again. With the evidence, it shows there is no energy left to spam spot heals on the UA bar, whereas on the Rt Lord bar there is plenty. There are two spot heal slots available, though I would be happy running one. You also have this reversed; it's because of this build that you don't need a third healer. Most teams have a UA or WoH hybrid. It's not the same sort of hybrid as you would run with heroes. For example, pugs would not run SoS with resto skills and sometimes not even with Splinter. A necro wouldn't run discord or /Rt resto skills, even if it could drop 10 points from Soul Reaping. A monk role is different, as it's from the same class, an obvious choice and prots have been PUG meta for years. Here's what happens; in a PUG party, the backline consists of two characters. A spot healer and semi-protter (i.e. PS, Aegis and sometimes SoA) with UA+heal or WoH/Burst. The second slot is a party healer, designed to alleviate pressure from the main healer and expand it's energy. This has strong single-target heals to go with the party heals, so you can leave the main healer to deal with spikes and hex removals with it's energy. You do not need any further mitigation than Protective Spirit, albeit, many pugs will be carrying SY!, it's not necessary. Once you have such a strong backline you can focus full damage capabilities and an extended frontline. by the way, inferior and overkill are the same thing; this is neither. ER prot is overkill. Anything with ER in it is overkill, really, for being so non-robust. Love, ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 03:10, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I've stopped caring and as such, am not going to read that WoT. This build's trashed, so I'm not going to continue trying to reason with you. Roland 03:55, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Roland; I have countered your fallacies; please change your rating or remove it. Alternatively you can read what I have said. I'm sure it will change your mind. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 03:57, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I skimmed it, and it had nothing to do with my vote. Even if it did, then about 3 peoples vote would be changed. Maybe you're just wrong and everyone else is right eh? I'll refer you to the | Excluded Effect Good Day sir. Roland 04:02, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * No, it won't, because at the heart of your argument is that terrible "math" that was done which is horribly unrealistic and skewed massively in this build's favor. -- Jai . -  04:04, December 5 2011 (UTC)
 * In fact what really needs to happen is a comparison between healer's boon monk, as that's pure heals. The maths isn't terrible in itself, but the comparison between party heals apparently wasn't the issue. I'll finish this later. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 04:26, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

jai did this
I think he misunderstood, but I will make some points on the talk page instead of offtopicking Relyk's talk page. ~  Ӎiñon  02:52, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * You've had "evidence" for all your shitty builds, but in the end that evidence means nothing because it's based on unrealistic situations and idealized circumstances. But fine, I'll bite, one more time. regen fucking sucks. The vast majority of threatening damage in PvE comes in big packets, and a party-wide Mending isn't going to shit in that case. This means you're essentially required to bring prot as well as another character that can actually provide non-shit single-target heals. That's going to mean 3 dedicated slots to defense because fuck if pugs will actually run hybrid roles. That alone makes the build inferior to monks. And get this straight: we do not need a Ritualist Resto build on PvX. If there's one that is superior to monks, that's a different story, but otherwise, there is no real reason to store one.
 * Oh, and if you really, really want to run resto, just fucking run an SoS with MBaS, SL, PwK, and/or Life. You'll end up doing far more for your party that way than some shitty full-resto rit any day of the week. -- Jai . -  02:56, December 5 2011 (UTC)
 * My question to you is this: do monks run damage/heals? NO. This talk of hybrids is stupid. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 03:17, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Besides, arguing that pugs don't run hybrid and this wastes space is a very,very poor reason, when you consider what PvX currently have to offer. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 03:32, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * You ask if monks run damage and heals? I retort with a hearty helllll yeahh! My RoJ smite monk with smiters boon heals and damages v well! Roland 04:33, 5 December 2011 (UTC)