Build talk:N/A Soul Taker Dagger Spam

So ending my eight year hiatus with this bar. I think Soul Taker has a lot of opportunity outside of N/D and I wanted to do it here. Got to be careful seeing we have. Similarly we have optional skills that can be added. I dont think we should necessarily have an exhaustive list of skills as obviously many skills have utility but I wanted to pick the more prominent ones. Vincent Evan [Air Henchman]  16:57, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Variant with hero
Hero with dark aura; micro preferredly, else bring a sacrifice skill and the hero will use it on you by himself, even outside of combat. I added some questionable heroes and got really good results nonetheless: Shield of jugdment ritualist, gust mesmer, double dragon mesmer, healer's boon monk. Seems like a solid build concept. Advantage of outsourcing dark aura is not only increased damage and spread-out health loss, but also that you don't have to put up all the damn enchantments before combat. >.> --Krschkr (talk) 01:28, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
 * One huge plus in having Dark Aura on a hero is being able to ditch Death MAgic completely and take Blood Magic for Demonic Flesh, increasing DPS significantly. BLood magic also has a few convenient sac skills so you won't have to micro Dark Aura from your hero that way. Only issue with this I really see is covering Dark Aura is less in your control, but you can bring for example Blood Renewal or something similar to be safe from that for a while. P.S. There's a typo in Usage, it says Dark Bond instead of Dark Aura. --Rainemard (talk) 05:19, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * First off, SoLS seems like a waste of a slot, but I'm open minded. This build has the same problem as that ranger and assassin dagger spam have with the new elites: You can't take three PvE skills. This hurts here, because Drunken Master is arguably mainbar, making you choose between AScan and "IAU!". I also don't think deep wound is worth taking. Things will die too fast for it to be effective. In the time it would take for you to cast Golden Fang Strike, you could have already dealt 100+ AoE damage via dark aura. Same goes for Brawling Headbutt.


 * On its own this build is going to really struggle to not kill itself compared to the N/D. For example, bring this in a pug and you'd die pretty quick (bring death nova). N/A is powerful, maybe moreso than Assassin daggerspam, but precariously vulnerable. A literal glass cannon. I really like the idea of outsourcing Dark aura to a hero, but in order to do that the best route imo is to make a team build around it. I think it deserves one; there are other hero team builds on the wiki which are built around a specific player build. As brought up above, this offloads the Dark Aura health loss off the player, and frees up attributes for max dagger mastery, additional soul reaping for better energy & Soul Taker duration, as well as some more to play around with.


 * The obvious first choice is to throw Dark Aura on a minion master: it already has high death magic. I think that is might work, but only in the sense a band-aid covers a gushing wound. Dark Aura is going to quickly drain the hero's health too, and strain your backline. I think a Necro hero specifically centered around supporting this player bar would work better. You don't need minions necessarily, and not having a MM drag behind will be nice. A bar trying to supplement the N/A player while trying to maintain a minion army seems too much to juggle (imagine Dark Aura health loss + BotM life sac).


 * Here is a bar taken from the trial N/W talk page:


 * Here are my takeaways:
 * 1) AotL is a bad option. Masochism is a given
 * 2) I like [[Withering aura@18] as a cover enchantment.
 * 3) Vigorous Spirit same as #2, and helps recover health. It's really all you need + vamp daggers to cover the majority of Soul Taker's life sac.
 * 4) Live Vicariously would be micro'd onto the Dark Aura Bot in order to help cover [[Dark Aura@18] Dark Aura's health loss. Pretty beneficial. It can be stripped, but will also be covered by masochism, and possibly vigorous spirit on self.


 * here's an idea that melds into part of the backline instead of a second N/Rt healer. You will have to place Splinter weapon somewhere else. I think a Rt/P with Incoming/fallback would work well, in place of a N/P MM.
 * 12+3+1+2 (18) Death, 6+2+2 (10) Soul, 11 Healing
 * Cure Hex is optional.
 * Orders like OotV seems nice at first, but OotV doesn't work with other necro enchantments, and Order of Pain has an annoyingly long cast time and prevents hero from casting heals.
 * Orders like OotV seems nice at first, but OotV doesn't work with other necro enchantments, and Order of Pain has an annoyingly long cast time and prevents hero from casting heals.


 * Due to how Dark Aura works, would it be best to micro it or not? It will be cast on anyone with life sac causing skills. This means BiP, Spirit Light, Enfeebling Blood. Dark Aura on the BiP isn't a big deal, as the hero can maintain it on both of you, but three heros is a stretch. A N/Mo hybrid backline covers where bringing a second copy of spirit light could complicate things. Of course, you can always switch it out for renewing memories or Spirit Transfer. Personally I would combine this N/Mo bar with a BiP healer, ST, Rt/P Splinter+incoming, and obviously triple mesmer.


 * Back to the build itself, Demonic Flesh + Blood Renewal over Dark Aura + Masochism assuming you have the DA Hero. Willarddog (talk) 21:15, 12 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Here is the afformentioned Rt/P hero over N/P MM. Don't forget that just because you're not bringing a MM, doesn't mean you won't utilize corpses. the N/Mo DA support brings Putrid Explosion, which heros use VERY well combined with melee players. --Willarddog (talk) 06:51, 14 June 2020 (UTC)


 * SOLS is just something I like and is general utility. I can remove it as we discuss different optional slots and the issue with Dark Aura being outsourced but generally I think it is good whereas PvX was about what's best. :)


 * As for demonic flesh, I'm on the fence. I'll name my concern in two points. First point: "One huge plus in having Dark Aura on a hero is being able to ditch Death MAgic completely and take Blood Magic for Demonic Flesh" I am fearful of build creep. I don't think it would be good for the wiki to take a generalized build and then try and create a team around this sole bar. I think the idea you offer is good but I'm curious if it is best made after this is vetted and then a generalized Necro Physway of sort is then vetted itself. This is just merely a thought though because your explanation of how to best leverage this build is certainly valid because this can build can struggle to survive due to how much life loss incurs with fast activating dagger skills. If we had to, could we do a recommended build section that links to specific hero bars to help keep the N/A alive and while trying to succinctly the choices made?
 * The bars you offer are pretty good. Let me share what I have thought of:


 * I'm using optional as I think the skills above are the central skills here. I am personally against Live Vicariously as I believe you will not need it in most situations. I think there are corner cases where it would be valuable but beyond that I think it is a middling skill even when we incur life loss. There are other skills that bring larger utility immediately than the incremental gains for HP off LV. Putrid Explosion would be a great example esp. if you spec into Minions.


 * Lastly, I want to talk about Demonic Flesh. The biggest concern here is attribute spread. if you did 7+1 into Blood Magic you would get 13 damage + 46 second enchant time. Is that really worth the loss in soul reaping? I feel like I would take a different approach and perhaps leverage an Rt/P or something with Splinter Weapon, bring SoH, and focus on what utility skills I can bring in here. 13 damage on all other foes (this is operative: Dark Aura does damage to all nearby foes--- this is to every other foe which isn't bad, but more limited in reach than DA).~


 * If you bring a hero with Dark Aura you would need to then need to have a hero specced into what will most likely be an MM which, on its own, is not bad. I think im curious on how we incorporate that because the enchantment maintenance is definitely the aspect of the build where it does not shine. It has insane DPS but being able to outsource + micromanage dark aura is a different form of play that, when it comes time for voting, I want to ensure gets captured. If you cannot outsource Dark Aura for some reason then you would want to at least convey that you should be bringing it yourself. So I guess I'm right now trying to think on the issue of formatting the build to be most efficient. I think if we recommend different hero builds we do them in an Other/See Other section at the end. [[Image:Vincent002.png|24px]] Vincent Evan [Air Henchman]  15:32, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/717373593503268914/721727629681491968/team_build_2020-06-14_140755.480596.jpg?width=494&height=432

^This is the easy way to incorporate DA into the meta hero team. This requires Microing Dark Aura on yourself every 30 seconds. That is fine, but for players like me who won't micro more than casting SoH when I enter the map, this won't fly. One issue in particular is how heros maintain Dark Aura on anyone with life sac spells, which is complicated by 2 copies of Spirit Light, hence the WoH healer bar above. Vigorous Spirit serves as a great cover enchantment as well as helping counter soul taker. Live Vicariously is optional, but I feel it works well to help counter Dark Aura health loss on the hero, and with regard to stripping the hero has 2 cover enchantments. This is my full team comp:

Optionals are Exhausting Assault or IAU. Exhausting will for sure have much higher single-target damage over demonic flesh if you choose to drop it. Blood Renewal is simply the best choice for a sac skill to have on your bar, and it heals to boot. Casting it right before you enter a fight causes heros to focus healing on you as well, and triggers them to automatically cast vigorous spirit too. --Willarddog (talk) 16:54, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
 * EDIT: switched LV for SoLS. Obvious upgrade. Willarddog (talk) 12:46, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Remove Dark Aura from bar
from N/W page description: "This build is designed to be used with Dark Aura on a hero." I think that removing Dark Aura form the bar and adding this notation to the description at the top is the best move. This leaves the "where does dark aura go" open ended and up to player choice. This means that a sacrifice skill for having hero cast it on you is optional as well, if you add a note that its better to micro Dark Aura onto the player. Unlike N/D, I don't think this build can feasibly be run independent of hero support, such as in pug groups. you're just gonna die too fast. Therefore, there just isn't a point in bringing death magic at all. This also leaves the stats open ended to be discussed further for potential optionals

New main bar:
In my opinion the best option is to just go 12 dagger and 12+1+2 soul reaping for energy management. Each kill will give you 15 energy, refunding a single 1-2-3 chain. You also have SoLS giving health + energy, and optional zealous daggers. You also have BiP which is nice. This leaves you two optional slots, which should really be just IAU! + something else. I'll list some decent options anyways to be thorough.

Potential Optionals:
PvE
 * [[Asuran Scan@5] - self explanatory
 * [["I am Unstoppable!"@5] - you're pretty squishy; arguably mainbar.
 * [["Finish Him!"@5] - deep wound; if you go 12+1+2 Soul Reaping, you can easily afford it.
 * [["You Move Like a Dwarf!"@5] - spammable ranged knockdown; if you go 12+1+2 Soul Reaping, you can easily afford it.

Dagger Mastery:
 * [[Golden Fang Strike@12] - deep wound
 * [[Exhausting Assault@12] - interrupt + great dps (fast, double DA proc)

Soul Reaping:
 * [[Signet of Lost Souls@15] - energy management + heal, short cd + cast time; arguably mainbar.

Curses: raise to 3+1 (for breakpoint)
 * [[Plague Sending@4] - for sac skill + utility

Blood Magic: Drop soul to 10+1+2, raise Blood to 8+2
 * [[Blood Bond@10] - effective self heal
 * [[Demonic Flesh@10] - additional AoE damage, cover enchant
 * [[Blood Renewal@10] - sac skill for non-micro DA; self Heal.

Shadow Arts: optional Drop soul to 10+1+2, raise Shadow to 8 (breakpoint for shroud):
 * [[Shroud of Distress@8] - STRONG defensive enchantment.
 * [[Death's Charge@8] - Shadow Step. Not super necessary with Drunken Master.

Bad Optionals:
I also think that some skills currently listed as optionals should be removed, as they are a waste of space and worthless for this build:
 * [[Ebon Battle Standard of Honor@10] - Dagger spam is generally very mobile build. Not worth it IMO. Not listed on other dagger spam builds.
 * [[Brawling Headbutt@5] - not needed, doesn't trigger Dark Aura. YMLAD is better.
 * [[Twisting Fangs@0] - 5 second deepwound, expensive.

Willarddog (talk) 14:56, 19 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Another option is present two options: One bar with Death Magic (mainbar), and one bar without (variant version). This would work similarly to Build:R/A Together as One Daggers, which has a pet mainbar and petless variant. This allows us to keep both options, as they are essentially the same build done different, while also being able to separate their differences and discussions more reliably. Willarddog (talk) 16:07, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * There are now three build variants on the page: Basic, BiPless and Dark Aura. Took the basic one as the main bar and kept dark aura with its optionals as a variantbar. I personally don't think it's worth bringing dark aura in this very build when it's so easily supplied by a standard hero, especially if it takes you as long to set up your enchantments as it takes your team to kill half of the opponents. --Krschkr (talk) 01:09, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Looks good. I can't think of any changes I would propose, if I do I'll post em here. Willarddog (talk) 15:03, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

non-soul taker bar
Anyone else think it would be worthwhile to have a non-soul taker N/A bar? It would feature 12 dagger master, and have minimal enchantment usage/dependency. Soul taker is cool but all the enchants are perhaps a bit clunky. Sonofthort (talk) 13:35, 30 June 2020 (UTC)


 * I doubt that a non-soul-taker bar is worth it. You can avoid a lot of annoying enchantments by using a support hero. Without soul taker the build is... not very convincing, is it? The most interesting thing I came up with is a bar featuring its own mark of pain, but compared to soul taker + a hero with dark aura (most teams can easily fit one death magic hero) it's very pale. --Krschkr (talk) 13:52, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm a bit confused on the direction this site is going with the /A dagger spam bars. First we had a drawn out convo about how Conjures will just get stripped so they are probably not worth it. Now we have this bar with enchants up the ying-yang. Dagger spam simply requires resiliency to be effective, and team buffs. All these other "extra things" other professions can add to dagger spam don't change its effectiveness that much. Think that you have to stop and cast enchants here, that eats up your overall runtime. I wouldn't mind taking some gimmicky skills like MoP and Soul Taker, but they only add a bit to the base effectiveness of dagger spam and aren't the main selling feature imo. User 100425457 (talk) 12:57, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * In this case I'd actually disagree partially. Soul taker + dark aura is quite convincing and any other melee build producing many hits (I haven't tried N/W with axe yet) would do fine aswell. This bar, whether we take the solo or supported variant, has the dagger combo just as a welcome bonus. --Krschkr (talk) 13:31, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I need to run some numbers on this woof woof bar-bones dagger spam with resiliency/shadow step/no casting as focus still seems like a good conceptUser 100425457 (talk) 13:40, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The current page as it exists is not worth running ever. Maybe for the N/D scythe build, where energy isn't a problem and you just auto attack, but this build would be much much better if you move Dark Aura to a hero. Hence my team build up above. Willarddog (talk) 12:53, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Current page has been updated and looks better. Willarddog (talk) 15:03, 5 August 2020 (UTC)