Build talk:W/any Seven Weapons Stance Sword

First time submitting a build on here, I hope I did it right. I also tried a variant which uses Twin Moon Sweep and Rending Aura, which replace Body Blow and On Your Knees (drop some tactics to allow for 4 scythe and some wind prayers). That one requires at least a zealous sword, and is more bothersome to play with similar dps (losing the armor ignoring damage from body blow can hurt against high armor enmies), but it does spread cracked armor and twin moon sweep @20 scythe heals for quite a bit (153 when you remove an ench every 6 seconds, and then 63 for the ones in between when Rending Aura is recharging). Ideally this build gets Strength of Honor support which is very powerful to boost sun and moon slash. Lerajie13 (talk) 03:25, 15 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Immediate thoughts: Knee Cutter, Steelfang Slash, and "To the Limit!" is 3 skills dedicated to adrenaline gain. This is overkill. "FGJ!" can work almost as good and takes up only 1 skill slot in comparison. These 3 skills combined with "On your Knees!" (a wholly unnecessary skill, only to be used in areas with LOTS of stance removal; then again, in those areas just run a different build...) leaves you no room for important optionals such as Asuran Scan, "IAU!", or Death's Charge etc. Also, Body blow is inferior to better swordsmanship options, unless your team had plenty of cracked armor (Weaken Armor somewhere, or Air Elementalists?). Standing Slash deals more damage for cheaper. There is simply lots of wasted potential on overlapping and subpar skills. In summary, you have a really cool concept here with some good damage, but it just needs to be fine tuned. I think for the most part you should drop the last 3 skills on the mainbar:


 * Focus on this mainbar combo chain and build from there. This is a really solid bar; I love the synergy between YMLAD, Knee Cutter, and Steelfang in this context. You're able to fuel up your attack chain very quickly.
 * Optional #1 should probably be filled with an optional attack skill of choice: Standing Slash, Silverwing Slash, Body Blow, Power Attack, Whirlwind Attack, and maybe Final Thrust? Big damage finisher, you have lots of adrenaline gain anyways; who can resist +106 damage?!?!?!?!
 * Optional #2 & #3 can be filled with Asuran Scan, "IAU!" "To the Limit!", Headbutt (to get off more Knee Cutter procs), Death's Charge, "SY!", etc. of the player's choice depending on what's needed. Willarddog (talk) 13:18, 13 April 2021 (UTC)


 * As for the W/D variant, the current build is too clunky and has bad bar compression. The idea has merit though, as evidenced above by this Hundred Blades bar I've seen being played before, which works very well.
 * Here is a potential adaption with Seven Weapons Stance:


 * Aura of Thorns with 12 Earth Prayers provides a nearby-range cripple, allowing for multiple Knee Cutter procs across multiple targets.
 * The bleeding from Aura of Thorns also allows you to bring Gash for deep wound, providing for a cool synergy. Willarddog (talk) 13:18, 13 April 2021 (UTC)


 * The W/D Hundred Blades is only worth it under an essence of celerity though and particularly benefits from having more dual attacks to trigger hundred blades more often, meaning more mark of pain triggers. I don't think it's strong enough in a SWS build to justify consuming so many skill slots. --Krschkr (talk) 13:27, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I'll lend my agreement. The moments I've seen it used did have essences, now that I think about it. The W/D SWS bar is probably not that viable, but we'll see Willarddog (talk) 18:19, 14 April 2021 (UTC)


 * To The Limit is so that you can immediately spam damage and do not need to build up adrenaline, FGJ can't do that so it's not really bar compression at that point. FGJ also has a long cooldown. Steelfang and Knee Cutter allow you to combo attack skills one after the other, each one recharging the other 3 skills, it is not overkill adrenaline, it's what you need to spam those skills and Steelfang doubles as an attack skill as well. Another (very minor) drawback of FGJ is that it counts to the adrenaline cap so doesn't have synergy with skills that increase adrenaline gain for teammates. For these reasons I don't think the argument of bar compression holds up. Both are very potent adrenaline builders, and you can't really say that one is clearly better than the other. At the same time, Steelfang/KneeCutter is not used often at all in warrior builds while FGJ is a staple skill on many skill bars. If I had to pick between 2 equally good alternatives, I favor the one I haven't used in all my other builds yet.
 * As for Body Blow, yes I am assuming you use a form of cracked armor on the team. But you are right that this can be replaced by Standing Slash. It's not going to make a huge difference in DPS though, and you lose the deep wound spam. But it is a viable alternative for sure. On the other hand, Final Thrust is not a good optional. Yes it can hit for like 220 damage but your other skills also hit very hard (100-150 dmg). The whole idea of the build is to cycle between Knee Cutter+2 attack skills and Steelfang+2 attack skills to bypass the 1 sec recharge on those 2. This allows you to continuously rotate between your 4 attack skills (Knee Cutter, SaMS, Steelfang, BodyBlow/Standing Slash). Final thrust would only mess up that rotation by draining adrenaline, and most of the time the damage it deals is overkill anyway.


 * 100% Agree that you can drop "On Your Knees" for other skills if needed. I just wanted to include it because it's not a commonly used skill at all, and it makes a lot of sense in this build, where you have the adrenaline to back it up and the fact that stance removal kills your whole build. I didn't bother adding optionals like IAU or Asuran Scan because I figured it's basically on every build already that people will know they can swap out a skill for one of those if needed, and I didn't want to make a long list of optional "staples" because it would take away from the more unique idea of On Your Knees. It's true that stance removal isn't a problem everywhere though so obviously people can swap in another skill in that case.


 * I'm not too sure about Brawling Headbutt (I haven't personally tried it out in this build) for a few reasons. YMLAD cooldown might seem fairly long but in reality you have a lot of attacks to rotate through before you get back to steelfang slash (YMLAD, Steelfang, Body Blow, SaMS, Kneecutter, BodyBlow, SaMS, Kneecutter, Bodyblow, SaMS => YMLAD, Steelfang Slash). So you do not really need a lot of extra KD to fuel the chain. That said, more KD is always good because you can just use extra Steelfang Slashes which deal high bonus damage too. Just not sure if it's worth bringing a skill that will take away 1 adrenaline (whereas attack skills return the spent adrenaline) for it. --Lerajie13 (talk) 21:51, 15 April 2021 (UTC)


 * To the limit is a viable optional skill. Just doesn't need to be mainbar. Final Thrust was more of a meme, your points are correct. I'm actually in favor of YMLAD over Brawling Headbutt; brawling headbutt has cast time and doesn't build adrenaline. You also use very little energy in this build as it's adrenaline based, so YMLAD works. As for Body Blow, why are you assuming there is cracked armor on the team? just devil's advocate here. Obviously you would want to fit it in if you can.


 * Just because knee cutter / steelfang are not used often does not mean that it is most efficient. That is what we're gunning for here. PvX is not here to be "unique" that's what dying your hair purple is for. Your argument with "bar compression" makes absolutely no sense. Down below, for example, is a build which has 3 attack skills and 2 adrenaline building skills. It deals the same DPS as the combo chain build, while also not having to futz with landing combos. On the flip side, the combo chain build has 3 attacks (ymlad, sams, body blow) and 3 adrenaline skills (knee cutter, steelfang, TTL!). One of those attacks, ymlad, is also very energy intensive. If its the only energy skill, thats not as big of an issue.


 * The problem with combo chain is that it leaves out both "IAU!" and Asuran Scan, which are mainbar for warriors because they are so necessary (you have to look at this in the context of HM level difficulty). Cripple and knockdown destroy your ability to deal damage. As a frontliner, you need all the armor you can get, especially in PvE. Asuran Scan is godsend because it cancels out blocking, blind, hexes, etc. It is the anti-anti-melee. There are very good reasons why they are listed on almost every single melee attacker build on PvX. Not being able to bring both on the core build is a problem. You obviously don't need them in every scenario, which is why most builds list one or the other as variants or optionals. Hence why in my example bar above I listed "IAU!" and Ascan alongside other great optional skills which you could also bring.


 * Krschkr's point about the combo chain getting messed up ruining DPS is sadly the biggest drawback to the combo chain build. Don't get me wrong, I love the build, I think it's super cool that you've introduced a viable way to use knee cutter / steelfang slash, but a combo-less build has 0 of these drawbacks with roughly the same DPS. Willarddog (talk) 14:49, 16 April 2021 (UTC)


 * I never said Kneecutter/Steelfang being unique is what made it more effective. I'm saying that I tested both builds in the game before creating the page and I decided to upload a Kneecutter/Steelfang build because it wasn't worse and was something new.--Lerajie13 (talk) 15:57, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

More generally applicable variant
[build prof=Warrior/any Strength=12+1+3 Tactics=11 Swordsmanship=6]["To the Limit!"][Seven Weapons Stance][Asuran Scan@10][Standing Slash@20][Silverwing Slash@20][Sun and Moon Slash@20]["For Great Justice!"]["I Am Unstoppable"@10][/build] Disadvantages: Advantages: Article writeup here. Opinions? --Krschkr (talk) 14:16, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Features no knock down.
 * Features no crippling.
 * Features no recharge for the stance.
 * About the same damage.
 * Immediately ready to spam damage, no buildup.
 * Easier to play.
 * Features [["I Am Unstoppable!"] for increased reliability.
 * Features [[Asuran Scan] for increased reliability.
 * No loss of effectivity against foes with condition removal.
 * No loss of effectivity against foes immune to knock down.
 * Less impacted by vocal minority.
 * Due to using bland damage skills instead of conditional bonus effects you're not locked onto one target. With [[Knee Cutter@20] you'll have to stick to your one target and lose effectiveness once you can't hit a crippled target anymore. [[Steelfang Slash@20] is only good once every 10 seconds in combination with [["You Move Like a Dwarf!"@10]. That makes this variant better against quickly dying targets or in general when target switching is required.
 * Easier to customize: i.e. if Asuran Scan is not needed, you can switch it out for [[Whirlwind Attack@10], [[Death's Charge], [[Savage Slash@20] or other utility.


 * I think this is generally superior to the build on mainpage. I would simply just make a new competing buildpage and let them each get vetted independently. Both have their merits. Willarddog (talk) 13:18, 13 April 2021 (UTC)


 * I'd prefer not to do it that way. With the activity we have it will take a year to get both pages vetted, only to drop at least one of them in the end. --Krschkr (talk) 13:28, 14 April 2021 (UTC)


 * After looking at OP's history, yea I see where you're coming from. Guy hasn't checked back in 3 months. I doubt he'll come back anytime soon. I'd say give it a few days and then go ahead and replace the mainpage with your build above, or earlier if you want. The whole sword combo chain has good synergy, but it simply pales compared to a hammer combo chain (renewing smash). I'll give it a whirl when I can. If anything, the combo chain bar will live on as a mini skill bar in the discussion page. Willarddog (talk) 18:19, 14 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Hammer has always been great. Warrior's Endurance Hammer with that mighty renewing smash spam was the first build I posted on a Guild Wars fansite in 2011. I sure love it, but I know how vulnerable these hammer builds are. A single random block, miss or rupt will screw you for a while. Other bars like this sword build don't have as much oomph, but they certainly are more reliable. I'll tag the page for a rewrite following your support for the suggested new build. --Krschkr (talk) 21:50, 14 April 2021 (UTC)


 * while we're at it, we can easily merge W/E SWS Conjuring Sword with "More generally applicable variant", or vice versa. Conjure obviously doesn't need to be mainbar, just a variant. Willarddog (talk) 21:31, 15 April 2021 (UTC)


 * I don't think it's fair to compare a Sword build to a Hammer build, like Krschkr said. Especially with Renewing Smash where you can mess up once and lose your high dps for 30 seconds. And for what it's worth, the Sword build feels a lot more natural (free-flowing) to use compared to the hammer one in my opinion.


 * As for the build that you posted @Krschkr, I have tested it as well, it certainly works too. That said, the DPS of the KneeCutter/Steelfang build turned out slightly higher during testing, not sure why that is listed as an advantage for your build (at best the DPS is equal, I got about 5% more DPS with the main page build). I agree it is a bit harder to execute well though. Regarding KD immunity, it is true that against some bosses you will lose some effectiveness, that said you still get strong adrenaline spam with just Knee Cutter. However, I do not think it is very relevant against KD immune normal foes because they die quick enough anyway and they often have allies that can be KD, so you can attack those instead. You are right that the build locks you to the same target more (as in you can't just switch targets every 2 seconds) but I didn't experience this as a major problem while playing. Against lots of weak enemies this is a bit of an issue, and it can be helpful to have an additional source of (AoE) cripple on the team in that case. Main page build can also immediately spam damage ("TTL"). As for customization, you can easily drop On Your Knees for another skill like IAU or Asuran Scan if you need it. I didn't list those because I didn't want to take away from the On Your Knees idea (I figured Asuran Scan/IAU are so commonly used/listed on builds on pvx that it was more important to show a new idea rather than create an exhaustive list of possible optionals). On Your Knees does address a major weakness that all other SWS builds currently on wiki have, which is that you lose all your effectiveness when you get hit with stance removal.


 * The W/D variant is certainly more clumsy and difficult to use which means in practical play it will lose effectiveness due to misuse by the player/unforeseen events etc for very little benefit, but I added it to perhaps give people some inspiration to try and make it work.


 * Those are my comments :) As parting thoughts I would like to say this: For sure your alternative build has some advantages, but so does the build on the main page. I think the build on the main page is more unique than your alternative though, and is not objectively inferior (the main build, not the W/D variant). So for that reason I think it has a place on the wiki. There are already a lot of builds suggesting FGJ + Asuran Scan + IAU + some Elite (WE, SWS, 100b). There are no builds featuring Steelfang/Kneecutter/YMLAD. The build feels natural to play, performs equally well in most situations and slightly better as well as slightly worse in some other situations (as is true for any build). To me the advantage of being a unique addition to the wiki outweighs the drawback of being slightly less universally effective (e.g. against KD immune bosses with loads of health or hordes of weak enemies where you are forced to switch target more), especially when its general performance is at the very least equal to the suggested alternative. --Lerajie13 (talk) 21:51, 15 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Testing on Master of Damage is not testing fyi.


 * Krschkr's point regarding the hammer is moot "A single random block, miss or rupt will screw you for a while." because that's easily countered by Asuran Scan. Regardless, you're missing the main point, which is combo synergy. The current out-dated (and recently unarchived) W/E Hammer build isn't what I was comparing this too, but the newly introduced one in the talk page. The reason they are comparable is that they both use YMLAD for its instant knockdown capabilities, and they can both cycle over and over and over. The hamemr build in particular can easily hit Renewing Smash 4 times, which absolutely decimates foes. It also only has 4 skills in the core combo (ymlad, yeti, renewing, prot strike) as the SWS combo build (ymlad, knee cutter, sams, steelfang).


 * Now with regards to "On Your Knees!", you bring up a really great point. In certain scenarios, heavy stance hate really counters SWS hard, which "On Your Knees!" addresses. However, because that only applies to specific scenarios, it simply belongs as an optional.


 * I personally appreciate the W/D attempt, as you can see above I entertained the idea myself to try and make it work, but unfortunately Krschkr is right, and the 100b version is only viable in specific scenarios like he stated.


 * Regarding your parting thought, This is why I suggested early to Krschkr to making seperate pages. We already have another SWS Sword page which is very similar to the "More generally applicable variant" Krschkr posted. Because those two builds are so similar, I think that the SWS Conjuring Sword build should be updated to look more like Krschkr's general build, and conjure made a variant option. Because general build and the combo-chain build play very different (only similarity being the elite), I think that the wiki can best benefit from having two separate pages. Each build has its own merits and deserves to be vetted independently, instead of against each other. You're point here sums it up very well: "The build feels natural to play, performs equally well in most situations and slightly better as well as slightly worse in some other situations (as is true for any build)." While the validity of the build is your opinion, the point is that these are two separate builds with different playstyles.


 * As for: "I think the build on the main page is more unique than your alternative ... for that reason I think it has a place on the wiki" and "the advantage of being a unique addition to the wiki outweighs the drawback of being slightly less universally effective" further testing and deliberation will tell. While PvX benefits from unique, diverse, and innovative builds, vetting is objectively based on effectiveness and to a lesser extent universality. If you look into how the ratings are calculated, effectiveness is weighted 80%, universality 20%, and innovation 0%, even though you vote on all three points. Everyone on PvX, including Krschkr himself (alongside myself), has had the experience of a build they've submitted not being favored as highly as they would wish. This is why he keeps so many builds in his userpage (I keep a few as well). Willarddog (talk) 14:49, 16 April 2021 (UTC)


 * In response to your last paragraph: Agree, further testing and deliberation will tell. I don't mind if the build gets bad votes. But in the conversation above you guys were discussing to replace the build with the alternative build and bypassing votes or testing, that's all.--Lerajie13 (talk) 15:57, 16 April 2021 (UTC)


 * That was only because we hadn't heard from anyone else (including yourself). It's not like PvX is terrible active xD. I'm glad you came back though, because I'd like to see if we can make this work Willarddog (talk) 17:13, 16 April 2021 (UTC)


 * I posted the build 3 months ago and checked back pretty regularly (usually twice a week) to see if there were any updates on it, but yes tbh I was beginning to think it wouldn't get noticed which is also why I haven't really posted any other builds.--Lerajie13 (talk) 19:08, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Added the conjure variant to the rewrite draft.

The only uniqueness that has a merit in this wiki is when only one build fills a useful gameplay oriented role. Doing the same job as another build but with other skills is only useful when the builds fill a similar gameplay role but are sufficiently distinct, while remaining competitive with eachother. This build is a single-target focused damage build revolving around knock downs. It has to compare itself to other builds in the same niche: The current build has a bunch of counters and weaknesses and does not justify them by excelling at achieving gameplay goals. In comparison with its competitors it's not favoured. If we remove some of the build's weaknesses we end up with the proposed rewrite bar that maintains the damage output but removes possible counters, making it possible to justify featuring the build for its reliability/ease of use despite it's not as proficient at devastating single targets as the other builds in its niche. --Krschkr (talk) 20:51, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Warrior's Endurance Hammer – different weakness but deals less damage and no area damage.
 * Seven Weapons Stance Hammer – shared weaknesses, but less damage and no area damage.
 * Warrior's Endurance Daggers with Brawling Headbutt – more weaknesses, deals more or less damage depending on the team setup and again features no area damage.