Archive talk:Team - Sabway/Archive 1

Well, this is a build I imported from Guru. It is known as Sab's three necro build. It wasn't on wiki but it's one of the best HM team builds around, so I decided to submit it. --Batno mercy 07:56, 5 January 2008 (EST)

Well, it's been some time and no comment was made on the build, although it is outstanding from my point of view :( Please comment and make suggestions so it can go to the testing status and not only trial.Batno mercy 14:01, 7 January 2008 (EST)


 * Don't vote on builds while they're in trial. --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  17:35, 9 January 2008 (EST)

When I asked Sab if I could submit this build (a month or two ago), she said she'd prefer if it wasn't on PvX. I dunno if you care, but you might get some hate for that. -- Mafaraxas 23:53, 9 January 2008 (EST)
 * Who cares? Necros own, people've been using them for ages. The meta already hates us for hosting meta builds =P 00:14, 10 January 2008 (EST) &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Skakid9090 (contribs).
 * Yeh, this does totally own HM. The version I have has Vengeful instead of Splinter on the healer and a res signet instead of Extinguish on the MM, but it's not really important. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] Mafaraxas  00:26, 10 January 2008 (EST)
 * I haven't asked Sab like you did, mafaraxas, but I think that this build wasn't unknown, so it was only a matter of time someone posted it up here, and what better than helping people, as HM is HARD with the wrong party. I had read the Vetting article but it didn't state explicitly enough for me at the first reading that you shouldn't rate trial builds.--Batno mercy 11:40, 10 January 2008 (EST)
 * It's not like sab "invented" these builds....N/Rt's have been out since the release of NF, the SS build is somewhat standard (except disenchants are usually wasteful in pve), and N/Mo's using skills a monk can't spam isn't new either. P A R A S I T I C 18:47, 27 January 2008 (EST)

Whats Micro?74.32.173.111 10:53, 29 January 2008 (EST)
 * =Micromanagement=manually activating hero skills, targets, and such.--War Pig5 03:46, 2 February 2008 (EST)

Would this be able to help me do the dungeons on nm?90.208.100.133 15:24, 18 April 2008 (EDT)

Healer Necro
Why does the healer work best as a Necro? Kiteeye 08:32, 10 January 2008 (EST)
 * The healer is better as a Necro because it's Healing spells are pretty consistent at 12 Restoration Magic. But there is the problem of Energy. This build has been designed mostly around the insane energy management that necros have from Soul Reaping, combined with Jagged Bones. Basically, this Healer is NEVER short of energy.--Batno mercy 11:40, 10 January 2008 (EST)

Sab-way
"Sab-way" ftw lol...very good hero team been using it alot 121.45.194.46 11:48, 10 January 2008 (EST)
 * Someone needs to rename this Sabway, thats what everyone recognizes it by, and if not, perhaps a title mentioning soul reaping would be more appropriate. Mr Emu 23:41, 16 January 2008 (EST)
 * no they shouldn't, this name is more appropriate and the build wasn't made by Sab, so don't make people who don't know it think otherwise.

Watch me work it 15:52, 22 January 2008 (EST)
 * Nah it shouldn't be renamed but as far as I know this build was made by Sab(yes other people probably made it as well but that stands for any build that people claim to have invented)...well it was originally a HA team and he modified it for PvE....he even has 2 different versions as he was tweaking it to improve it 118.208.122.110 22:00, 30 January 2008 (EST)

Ritualist MM
On the MM build have you considered having as a varient taking a Ritualist primary and putting points from Soul reaping into Spawning, and taking boon of creation instead of SolS? (just a thought to consider) PheNaxKian  (T /c) 13:59, 10 January 2008 (EST)

I personally use the Rt/N build instead of the N/Mo bomber, i find it less vunerable to folding, and you can put some partywide heals there! its great! Chunk 17:56, 16 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Soul Reaping is key. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] Mafaraxas 16:47, 10 January 2008 (EST)
 * I realise soul-reaping is for e-managment etc. but because it's on the MM with boon of creation, that yould act as the equivalent of soul reaping+SoLS in a way. PheNaxKian  (T /c) [[Image:Phenaxkian_sig_phoenix.jpg|19px]] 16:59, 10 January 2008 (EST)
 * I think that it wouldn't work as well. Let me explain why: It's about the same princip as the healer being necro and not ritualist. Soul Reaping is the key of this build. What monsters do is just swarm your minions (who are enchanted with jagged bones) and slaughter them, killing themselves and producing new minions. The diying minions give energy to the whole party. I think that if the MM goes Rt/N it would result in the minions diying prematurely (12 death magic means way too low level minions who won't be able to fulfill their role of tanking efficiently). The MM himself would have enough energy because of Boon of Creation, but this would be useless, as your team doesnt get the same energy boost. I'll try to run once or twice with Rt/N to see any other flaws. But basically, that could be a less effective variant for those who don't want 3 necros for any reason.--Batno mercy 11:05, 11 January 2008 (EST)
 * they would tank just as well because all though you can't get them a higher level, because your using spawning, it increases their health etc. And it was only a suggest alternative if people jsut fancy taking a rit instead of a necro..(I understand why the healer is a necro though hence why i didn't say make the healer a Rit...although XD joke) PheNaxKian  (T /c) [[Image:Phenaxkian_sig_phoenix.jpg|19px]] 17:05, 10 January 2008 (EST)
 * Yesterday I tried a group of standart foes with a Ritualist Primary MM.Worked out decently, until they started diying. The damage wasn't enough from Death Nova, resulting in slower killing. But if it works anywhere else than Dragon's Throat, I'll put it in Variants.--Batno mercy 11:05, 11 January 2008 (EST)

It's cause the N/Mo has pspirit and aegis. &mdash;  Skadiddly [슴Mc슴] Diddles  17:08, 10 January 2008 (EST)
 * Take GW:Spirit's gift GW:Explosive Growth then some sort of optional (Boon replace SoLS so you'd still have a free) <font color="#4F94CD">PheNaxKian </B> (<font color="Red">T /c) [[Image:Phenaxkian_sig_phoenix.jpg|19px]] 17:18, 10 January 2008 (EST)
 * Going Rt/N means you can't take Protective Spirit and Aegis. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] <font color="black" face="calibri">Mafaraxas 18:03, 10 January 2008 (EST)
 * Hence the replacements mentioned above..... <font color="#4F94CD">PheNaxKian </B> (<font color="Red">T /c) [[Image:Phenaxkian_sig_phoenix.jpg|19px]] 10:17, 11 January 2008 (EST)
 * My main concern is that the MM will not be able to prevent the enormous spiking that is done in HM (I usually go with a protection monk too, 2 Prot spirits = much better management). He can't run shelter, shelter isn't good with almost no restoration.--Batno mercy 11:05, 11 January 2008 (EST)
 * I assume you mean communing not restoration-well you have 9 atts from Protection so you could put them into communing then take a minor communing rune that gives you 10 in communing, then you could take Shelter and union (use union first) so it acts as a huge damage buffer while they're alive, you could also take displacment so you have 75% chance to block (sort of an Aegis replacment) <font color="#4F94CD">PheNaxKian </B> (<font color="Red">T /c) [[Image:Phenaxkian_sig_phoenix.jpg|19px]] 11:23, 11 January 2008 (EST)
 * I will try and run that build--Batno mercy 11:53, 11 January 2008 (EST)

The N/Mo is better. &mdash;  Skadiddly [슴Mc슴] Diddles  16:58, 11 January 2008 (EST)
 * Not saying it isn't i just think it would be a good idea to have some sort of alternative if people want. <font color="#4F94CD">PheNaxKian </B> (<font color="Red">T /c) [[Image:Phenaxkian_sig_phoenix.jpg|19px]] 18:53, 11 January 2008 (EST)
 * It'd just be too inferior as Rt/N; the whole build works on the soul reaping, and going Rt/N means you have to use another slot for strippable, inferior energy management, which means you won't be raising as many minions which means less energy for the other heroes. Besides, spirits are just inferior to monk prots, especially when you're tacking them at the end of a bar. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] <font color="black" face="calibri">Mafaraxas  20:30, 11 January 2008 (EST)
 * I ran the MM build as Rt/N. Took all of the skills you suggested and went to dajkah inlet chellenge mission (HM). I just couldn't make any use of that rit. He never casted the spirits and had no energy after 3 minutes of fighting. I don't think this could be a viable alternative.--Batno mercy 14:17, 12 January 2008 (EST)
 * Ok-was just a possibility i thought was all but if it doesn't work oh well =P <font color="#4F94CD">PheNaxKian </B> (<font color="Red">T /c) [[Image:Phenaxkian_sig_phoenix.jpg|19px]] 14:26, 12 January 2008 (EST)
 * Before reading this section of the talk page I'd been using Archive:Rt/N Explosive Growth Minion Bomber (with Jagged Bones as the elite) on a char with this team build's SS & healer. It is indeed worse than N/Mo which I use when possible. however, I also found it better than switching either of the other 2 N's to non-Necro heroes. You guys don't seem to mention Explosive Growth, so I'll mention that it does add damage.--War Pig5 01:17, 2 February 2008 (EST)

My Userpage
This build has been posted on my user page. Copy + Paste? Also... I still can't rate builds :S It says I need contributions.... any tips? Everlong
 * Contribution = editing anything and saving the page. You need 8 to be able to rate.  Also, it doesn't matter less if it was copypasta from your userpage, as builds don't belong to anyone here.  You probably just copy-pasted from Sab (or copy-pasted it from a friend who copy-pasted it from Sab), anyway. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] <font color="black" face="calibri">Mafaraxas  15:47, 13 January 2008 (EST)
 * Sab copy pasted it on Guru. All goes down to one first person. I thank him a lot, but there is no need to bash everyone who says anything about this build without mentioning Sab.--Batno mercy 18:44, 13 January 2008 (EST)
 * I don't think I was bashing, I was just pointing out that Everlong's implied claim that the builds were originally his is just wrong, regardless of how much credit Sab deserves for the current version. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] <font color="black" face="calibri">Mafaraxas 01:03, 14 January 2008 (EST)

...Using 3 necros (and so generic as an MM, SS, and N/Rt healer), isn't a new idea, Sab didn't invent it, but he did a pretty good job fine-tuning and ppularizing it. &mdash;  Skadiddly [슴Mc슴] Diddles  18:48, 13 January 2008 (EST)

I didn't claim I made these builds, i claimed that i went through the time to convert them into Wiki formatting. I got them from Sab. Everlong
 * I was using 3 necs in PvE too before I saw it, but yeah, Sab's build is good to steal ideas from. Btw, it doesn't take long to stick something into PvX tags. :) --Mala[[Image:Mala_sig_Mind_Blast.jpg|19px]] 12:38, 14 January 2008 (EST)

Achievements with build
I'd like to add a section on what you can achieve with this build. Post what you have achieved with it (talking in PvE titles: vanquishing, protecting, guarding). Let me start this:
 * Canthan Guardian and Protector, Vanquished Cantha too.--Batno mercy 10:43, 15 January 2008 (EST)
 * Anything that has corpses in it and doesn't have massive AoE or uber bosses that kill the minions in one hit. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] <font color="black" face="calibri">Mafaraxas 15:00, 15 January 2008 (EST)


 * Canthan Guardian, elonaian protector --> legendary guardian, thanks sab Juge 01:37, 30 January 2008 (EST)
 * Completed Sorrow's Furnace (NM) with the necros, Ursan warrior (me), E/Mo/Mo/W henches. I know these aren't titles, per se, but it does go in HoM. --[[Image:Tero Gein sig.jpg|19px]] Tero   talk  19:27, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

Nice to see this build up here, I was actually thinking of registering and trying to learn the wiki know-how just to post this, cause it's been a huge help in HM for me. A friend of mine and me vanquished Cantha and Tyria with this, and now we're starting with Elona. We also did some of the HM missions, and I hero/henched many areas in GWEN and HM Vloxxen Excavations with it (was the last dungeon I had left for Master of North title and at the time I was in a mostly PvP guild so couldn't get a team for it). 78.2.2.148 09:14, 19 January 2008 (EST)

Hench?
Anyone got some good tips of what Henchmen to use whenever you are vanquishing or doing missions with H/H? Thanks in advance.. <font color="black" face="arialbold">Adr <font color="purple" face="arialbold">iaa <font color="black" face="arialbold">nz 11:46, 15 January 2008 (EST)
 * I always run two monks and two frontliners, but you can just as easily run one monk (prot preferably) and one frontliner with two support/damage casters if the area doesn't have too much pressure. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] <font color="black" face="calibri">Mafaraxas 15:03, 15 January 2008 (EST)
 * In Tyria, run with Mhenlo and Eve obligatory, then Devona and the mesmer if u want. I usually bring one warrior with damage or KD, one healing monk and 2 interrupt/support/lifestealers.--Batno mercy 16:00, 15 January 2008 (EST)
 * It's all down to preference. I used to run with all casters... I don't use this exact build, just to point out. Back when I had a resto necro running IV I would take 2 hench monks, but since now I've dropped IV and take a bunch of defense on myself, I go with a prot hench, herta if she's there (for wards) and 2 wammos to exploit channeling hax (read: splinter/ancestor's). Course if you want to be safer on HM take 2 monks. --Mala[[Image:Mala_sig_Mind_Blast.jpg|19px]] 18:08, 15 January 2008 (EST)
 * When I'm vanquishing, I run Ursan (warrior). As far as henchmen go, if I'm in Elona I'll take Nuker, Monk, Tank, and Paragon. Anywhere else, I take Nuker, 2 Monks, and a Tank. --[[Image:Tero Gein sig.jpg|19px]] TERO   talk  09:10, 27 March 2008 (EDT)

Im kind of confused about hench for this build as well. I'm trying to level my ebon rank, so i decided to try and vanquish dalada uplands. I figured with my shouts (i run focused support P/W build), the resto rit, and a prot monk we would be fine. I was so wrong. They interrupt/hexed us to death within the first couple of groups. So, my question is: with 2 monks, a resto nec, and my defensive shouts, would my team still have enough damage to clear HM? (i bring Lina, Devona, Cynn, and Zho for interrupts normally) User:Gabe 23:07, 18 January 2008 (EST) Gabe

I henched most of GWEN and plenty of missions in Cantha and Elona with this team and the ones I used were Herta/Kai Ying, both monks and then one random, mostly a physical attacker (Aidan cause of Barrage in GWEN, one of the warr hens in Cantha were the most popular choices). There was one minor issue of there being no warder in Echovald, so I used Cynn. :/ For Tyria I had a friend with me (thankfully since hens there are the worst) and for 8 person areas we were using many things but in the end we settled for a SoR para (a variant similar to what is used in GvG's relatively often now - with Shield's Up and WY, too bad they can't manage Aggressive Refrain cause it would definetely be a part of that build), Barrage ranger (N/Rt splinter's him and para for massive pain, and they make Barbs that more useful) and a hybrid WoH/prot monk (for some reason Tahlkora is doing fine with it). If I was forced to hench Tyria I guess the two monks, Eve and Little Thom would've been my choices, but I'm glad I wasn't forced to hench it. :D Oh and for 6 person areas we just used that WoH hybrid ofc. Not that it's important but my char was an ele (Mind Blast, Rodgort's, Painverter) and my friend was yet another nec swimming in energy (he ran SV/SoS similar to the Duncan SV build). 78.2.2.148 09:14, 19 January 2008 (EST)
 * Thanks, but did you use those in HM? I don't plan to HM tyria anytime soon, so thats not the problem. But if you did do HM, were you able to output a considerable amount of damage? I can run that para build your talking about, but I prefer the Focused Support Para we have an PvX, mostly b/c of SY and TNtF. So, with 3 healers (2 hench monks and the resto nec), 1 support (my para build), and 4 damage, I need to know if it can kill HM monks. I really cant test myself now b/c of pc issues, somebody mind testing? User:Gabe 16:39, 19 January 2008 (EST) Gabe
 * Yes, sorry for not being specific, everything I was talking about was in HM, or to be more specific - I hero/henched vanquishing GWEN areas, hero/henched most of Canthan and Elonian HM missions. I did almost nothing in Tyria with henches but together with the friend I mentioned we finished most of Tyrian missions in HM and vanquished the whole of Cantha and Tyria. And about the Paragon, if I had a real person playing a para with us, then we would've used the one with TntF and SY, but having a hero SoR is a decent alternative and together with the N/Rt and WoH/prot monk it's all the healing we need. And about your build (note - this works mostly in areas where you can take a warder, so hero/henching Tyria is troublesome) - I would play a build focused on as much dmg as possible (my char was an ele so I just simply nuked), since with a warder, two hench monks and the N/Rt, plus the PS/Aegis on the MM and the defensive nature of hexes u should be fine defensively. Take a warr as the last hench, or Aidan in GWEN and you should be fine. Basically ur somewhat gimped with the fact that hench monks are either prot or heal and can't combine the new and improved WoH in a build with prot spells. So I guess my suggestion is - pack as much dmg as possible on your own char and call targets for the heroes to focus on. Also use the variant of N/Rt with Splinter Weapon, but that should be obvious I guess. Oh and be sure to pack Painverter on your char. Easy kills on any dangerous AoE user, or a fast attacking melee mob.78.2.48.222 09:39, 20 January 2008 (EST)
 * Thank you for clarifying about HM. And yes, I use the splinter weapon on the N/Rt, it has good synergy with Aidan's Barrage. I always hear people saying how amazing pain inverter is, but i've never seen it actually used in practice, so i'll try that. What I think I'll try is bringing a guildie with hero monks and having a hero monk bring the Elite Revert Hexes, b/c I noticed that the hexreapers in dalada are plentiful and the hexes are somewhat the bane of this team. But thank you, dalada is one of the few places i have left to vanquish so im really trying to get this to work. I think 2 playes/ 6 hero works better than henching it. Thanks for the help. Gabe 13:46, 20 January 2008 (EST) Gabe
 * Just a note on the areas in GWEN with Charr - use Frozen Soil. It makes the dominators go waaaay down in the to-kill list and u can focus on the eles and monks. 78.2.9.183 20:48, 21 January 2008 (EST)
 * Another note in Charr areas of GWEN: don't bother with this for areas with epic r-spike (Grothmar Wardowns, not sure about the others), or get a few people to bring "Shields Up!" Or an imbagon works, too. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] <font color="black" face="calibri">Mafaraxas  19:33, 22 January 2008 (EST)

Useless Variant
"You can make your heroe half monk and put a ressurect on there" under the N/Rt healer. How does that make any sense? 130.49.27.168 12:37, 17 January 2008 (EST)
 * I think it means you can do N/Mo in stead of N/Rt and use a Monk res in stead of Death Pact Signet. Which makes sense for the SS necro but none at all for the healer since changing that to N/Rt means changing almost the entire skillbar...
 * edit: I changed it so it makes better sense. 77.162.186.231

SS Necro
I just thought it was kind of weird putting Mark of Pain on a SS Necro. For SS, you want the enemies to stay clumped together in order to deal the most damage possible. Last time I checked, Mark of Pain sends mobs scattering after a few hits. Are you supposed to use Mark of Pain on an enemy that's far away from the enemy that you cast ss on? 75.70.135.246 23:37, 18 January 2008 (EST) Charon
 * It synergizes with the minions; you'll be doing more damage with the 3-4 seconds of Mark of Pain spam-activating with all the minions attacking the target than you would with 33 shadow damage every few seconds with SS. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] <font color="black" face="calibri">Mafaraxas 00:00, 19 January 2008 (EST)

Changes?
I checked the link to guru and noticed that several skills have changed in the conversion to PvX. For example, the MM didn't have extinguish, prot spirit, or aegis; it used mend body and soul, spirit light, and another hard res. Also, the SS nec had desecrate enchants, defile flesh, and insidious parasite. Finally, the healing nec used vengeful weapon. I know these are somewhat minute, but my point is this: i tried running the PvX version on HM in dalada, and noticed that the healing is not nearly enough. However, i could very well have had a bad hench set-up, and i should also mention that I only brought one hench monk. I probably should've brought 2 monks for HM, but I felt that their may be a somewhat "overkill" effect on the team's healing ability. I bring all this up to say: if the Guru build could be used to finish Slaver's Exile in 14 minutes w/ a 2 man, 6 hero team, then isn't it more effective than the changed one? Gabe 21:15, 19 January 2008 (EST) Gabe
 * Well, the variants you posted (except restoration on the MM) are already variants in the build. The main build is supposed to be used as a template for general use, and the non-critical parts can be freely changed to fit the situation.  Taking the Slaver's example from the Guru post, Sab's MM had Wards Against Melee and Stability if I remember right.  Maybe that's not clear enough in the build, I dunno. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] <font color="black" face="calibri">Mafaraxas  22:31, 19 January 2008 (EST)
 * The build as posted is what Sab runs. [[Image:User_Nyktos_Sig.png|User:Nyktos]] <font color=#551A8B>Nyktos  (talk · contribs) 23:09, 19 January 2008 (EST)
 * My grandpa runs frenzyhealsig with meteor shower. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] <font color="black" face="calibri">Mafaraxas 23:12, 19 January 2008 (EST)
 * Well, any player the has done HM can tell you that there is no "cure-all" team able to vanquish every area with no trouble. I understand that they are variants, but i wasn't sure if the posted build on PvX is what Sab had in mind creating the build in the first place. Because, tbh, i think Sab's build is great and i wanted the original build, and when i saw the changes i wasn't sure if some editors made changes to the original. Gabe 13:52, 20 January 2008 (EST) Gabe
 * Sab's updated it on guru, in the last couple of weeks, if anyone cares... --Mala[[Image:Mala_sig_Mind_Blast.jpg|19px]] 19:08, 20 January 2008 (EST)
 * I could really care less about this Sab person =/ &mdash;  Skadiddly [슴Mc슴] Diddles  19:12, 20 January 2008 (EST)
 * I repeat; if anyone cares. --Mala[[Image:Mala_sig_Mind_Blast.jpg|19px]] 19:35, 20 January 2008 (EST)
 * Oh thx Mala, didn't see the update, my mistake =D Gabe 20:11, 20 January 2008 (EST) Gabe

For the resto necro it wont matter what weps its using becuz of PwK, they wont be holding weps, they will be holfing the ashes Majikmajikmajik 22:53, 21 January 2008 (EST)
 * A 40/40 set for Restoration would be a good idea, actually. That way if you're casting it after you've dropped (The only time you'll have your weapons in your hand) you have a chance to halve the cast time/recharge on PwK. 69.157.64.199 22:20, 13 April 2008 (EDT)

Farming?
I've used this build about 3 times now but im not sure if i doing what its made for. Ive farmed HM outside ascalon, is farming what this build is meant for. If farming is an option, would you use just the necros and your own build i.e. blossom farmer?
 * The build is practically fool-proof; you could use it for farming if you wanted, I guess (though there are better options to farm solo instead of with 4 people). It can be used for 4-man as well as it can be used for 8-man areas. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] <font color="black" face="calibri">Mafaraxas  14:43, 21 January 2008 (EST)

MM/Healer necro template code
Should probably be changed to OANDUslfOL1qAaAP86qHBkqK because the current one doesn't work (at least not for me) 88.195.36.10 13:29, 25 January 2008 (EST)
 * Try putting ur template in decode and it will be automatically changed to mine.--Batno mercy 16:42, 25 January 2008 (EST)

MM equipment
Why no Bloodstained Insignia?--War Pig5 05:00, 26 January 2008 (EST)
 * This is a MM with only one minion skill (Animate Bone Minions). Plus, it produces two minions. Bloodstained insignia will not influence this hero's capabilities, maybe hinder them compared to a +15 hp bonus.--Batno mercy 16:02, 28 January 2008 (EST)
 * No, it will help. It will save like 5 minutes of casting time by the time you're done vanquishing. &mdash;  Skadiddly [슴Mc슴] Diddles  16:06, 28 January 2008 (EST)
 * And you wouldn't put bloodstained on the chest, you'll only miss +5 hp. Anyway, who bothers with filling out all the insigs for heroes? --Mala[[Image:Mala_sig_Mind_Blast.jpg|19px]] 16:15, 28 January 2008 (EST)
 * People usually bother with insignia at least their main char, from my experience. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] <font color="black" face="calibri">Mafaraxas 17:16, 28 January 2008 (EST)
 * My SS hero got Sup Vigor, while I only got major:\ Damn you /rock! Kongtorp 11:31, 3 April 2008 (EDT)
 * +HP on the MM is only half a good diea anyway. The moment you start using a spammable health sacrifice spell (BotM) your max HP becomes more hinderance than help.  I gave my MM +armor insigs and a Bloodstained.  My MM pretty much never dies anyway though, since I tend to micro my heroes a little more than needed. --Srakin 14:53, 16 May 2008 (EDT)

I don't get it
At all. Is this a four man team? If it is...I really don't get it.-- The Gates Assassin 03:49, 27 January 2008 (EST)
 * Its the three heroes you take when you want to vanquish with h/h.<font color="Black"> &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 04:39, 27 January 2008 (EST)
 * These three plus monks plus just about anything and you're set. --71.229 04:56, 27 January 2008 (EST)

And If you're playing A necro..?
Would running an SS build synergize well with the three others? If not, what would? FoC? 80.176.145.76 14:05, 27 January 2008 (EST)
 * You could always take the places of one of the heroes. Otherwise, an Icy Veins/Putrid Bile/Rising Bile build works well nearly everywhere.  Or you could go as a second Restoration healer.  It doesn't matter, really, since the heroes/hench can usually handle the environment independently of you tbh. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] <font color="black" face="calibri">Mafaraxas  15:55, 27 January 2008 (EST)
 * You could run an SS and make a hero play Zefir 23:55, 28 January 2008 (EST)

I would rather run that over the hero they spam Rotting too much and burn thru a ton of energy doing it. (Mr Pink57 19:45, 31 January 2008 (EST))
 * I actually run it myself, but without rotting at all, but was just throwing out suggestions. Zefir 22:32, 31 January 2008 (EST)
 * Arcane Echo'd Pain Inverter + Spoil Victor + random other skills. The necros in this team are very good at working over the called target, so your job is off-target. CoonerTheRed 11:50, 6 February 2008 (EST)
 * .--Reason.decrystallized 23:21, 22 April 2008 (EDT)
 * or run some kick-ass MM build (either AotL or OoU, or just jagged, depending on desired focus and number of corpses) and switch the MM hero to something like the Softening Bile thing above.--Reason.decrystallized 23:23, 22 April 2008 (EDT)

Reckless Haste is bad in HM
Drains too much energy and weakness allrdy kills the melee mobs dmg. 79.138.138.30 16:30, 1 February 2008 (EST)
 * Reckless haste isn't there for shutdown. It's there to make Spiteful Spirit activate more.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  16:36, 1 February 2008 (EST)
 * But it doesnt change their attack speed in HM... 79.138.138.30 16:42, 1 February 2008 (EST)
 * I enjoy mitigating bonus damage. --Mala[[Image:Mala_sig_Mind_Blast.jpg|19px]] 19:19, 1 February 2008 (EST)
 * Yea, it might save you a minion. 79.138.134.191 05:24, 2 February 2008 (EST)
 * Or some people. --Mala[[Image:Mala_sig_Mind_Blast.jpg|19px]] 07:24, 2 February 2008 (EST)

Weakened Jade Brotherhood have the unfortuanate habit of hitting for 150+ while weakened, I like making them miss. Teutonic 16:29, 2 February 2008 (EST)
 * What the shit are you talking about? 150 damage while weakened? wtb max armor. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] <font color="black" face="calibri">Mafaraxas 16:46, 2 February 2008 (EST)
 * It helps to not Frenzy healsig. then they stop doing 150s...and start doing 40s and less, with a 50% miss chance.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  17:19, 2 February 2008 (EST)

RH kills their energy and they use it like shit. The chance that they are getting more than 1 mob with the hex is small and you will have aegis chains/other prots+minions to save your team from melee. Far better to run something like defile/desecrate. 78.156.199.122 06:48, 3 February 2008 (EST)

I'll test something different from Reckless Haste but my point is that they always have energy and that 50% liss chance gives you a big advantage. It is, practically speaking, a 15 energy 12 second aegis, but for foes, since they cant attack faster. I'll try to use chantbane. i dont see any other skill except insidious that may help more than reckless haste. --Batno mercy 08:45, 3 February 2008 (EST)

2 WoR
And what if you're a WoR Healer yourself (Rt then)? Would it provide even better support? &mdash; <font color="#00ff84">eX <font color="#00a2ff">tinctioN  (<font color="#ff8a00">Talk /<font color="#ff5400">Contributions ) 04:15, 4 February 2008 (EST)
 * You want at least one prot monk so drop the N/Rt for that (or anything and take a hench), but make sure you get splinter (and preferably ancestor's rage) somewhere else if you're running melees, I put them on the SS anyway. --Mala[[Image:Mala_sig_Mind_Blast.jpg|19px]] 13:12, 4 February 2008 (EST)

Another change meh.
On the SS Necro, add Pure Was Li Meng. On the MM, add Remove Hex to deal with hexes in a small manner. <font color="black" face="arialbold">Adr <font color="purple" face="arialbold">iaa <font color="black" face="arialbold">nz 10:36, 4 February 2008 (EST)
 * Helps if you say what to take out -.-...... <font color="#4F94CD">PheNaxKian </B> (<font color="Red">T /c) [[Image:Phenaxkian_sig_phoenix.jpg|19px]] 14:45, 4 February 2008 (EST)

Mark of Pain and Extinguish, MoP cause there is sufficient damage already, and hex-removal is just more important than a second condi-removal. <font color="black" face="arialbold">Adr <font color="purple" face="arialbold">iaa <font color="black" face="arialbold">nz 15:10, 4 February 2008 (EST)
 * "Hex removal instead of Extinguish in hex-heavy areas with little to no conditions. Convert Hexes, Remove Hex, and Reverse Hex are good choices." Your purpose as a human player is not to go blindly in all areas, think a bit if you will need the hex removal and then take it if you need (variants section in MM). As for Li Ming... There are already 2 SPAMMABLE condition removals on the Healer. That is more than enough. As for damage, MoP is in the heart of this build, DAMAGE KILLS THESE HM MONSTER MOBS. Splinter is NOT enough to wipe 7 Overgrowths swarming you. Not at all. That's why you need MoP.Still, all depends on ur area, but there isnt much chance to have mass hexes and mass conditions. I would take Li Ming for those pesky AoE shouts from some monsters, as well as the veil of thorns in Kourna, but it is NOT necessary. The healer already spams WoR like mad on every1 with condition on them.--Batno mercy 08:13, 5 February 2008 (EST)

Splinter weapon rules big time, and i though Spiteful Spirit deals moar damage then MoP, duh. --<font color="Purple"><tt>I</tt>g<tt>o</tt>r<tt></tt> 08:10, 10 February 2008 (EST)

very nice
Im justusing it for running around, works very nicely himynameisbobbyjoe 10:12, 13 February 2008 (EST)

wait, so this is meant to be u, the three necro heros, and henchies for Vanquisher? im confused. I Am Jebus 22:05, 17 February 2008 (EST)
 * in the areas where you can only take 4, it works, but you may have an occasional death if you're not a support caster (healer, blinder, etc). I'd recommend at least one more healer henchie and a tank at minimum from the vanquishing runs I've done.  My alliance runs 4 Ursanway, 1 healer, and triple necro for EotN vanquishing, but that requires 5 people. --False Prophet 13:12, 18 February 2008 (EST)

MM's attribute points
The mm's att points seem to be messed up 12-9-9 isnt possible without runes. Ace 17:18, 8 March 2008 (EST)
 * Err... yes it is. --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  17:28, 8 March 2008 (EST)
 * http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Attribute_quests --<font color="Olive">Olivenmann 04:41, 10 March 2008 (EDT)

Different N/Rt healer?
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:N/Rt_Foul_Feast_Healer would this work better for the healer instead of WoR? this also has good condition removal but can help with the damage.Klomi 17:10, 13 March 2008 (EDT)

It does work, although not as effective beacause the hero either keep on spamming icy vains or tend not to use it at all. WoR is the ideal hero. (Lastwar 13:56, 18 March 2008 (EDT))

Best if your playing a necro
what should you play, or better which can you manage better than a hero?
 * Sign your comments with four tildes (~) and read the notes section for information regarding your role. God  box   18:03, 15 March 2008 (EDT)

WTB: Hex Removal | WTS: Blood Of The Matser. {pm me offers}
So, i think wit no hex removal its bad, and, I think Blood Of The Master is pointless on a Minion Bomber, he must bomb, not make his minions be alive longer. --<font color="Purple"><tt>I</tt>g<tt>o</tt>r<tt></tt> 18:56, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
 * Need to maintain minions between fights. <font color=#ff0000>Napalm Flame  >=] [[Image:Napalm_Flame_Sig_Image.JPG‎]] <font color=#0000ff>(talk)·(contributions) 19:01, 15 March 2008 (EDT)


 * N/Rt does it well, why Foul Feast instead of Remove Hex then? --[[Image:SuperIgorsig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Purple"><tt>I</tt>g<tt>o</tt>r<tt></tt> 19:12, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
 * It was extinguish then was changed to foul feast - imo u can use anything there.--Underwood 19:17, 15 March 2008 (EDT)


 * No hex removal is very bad. --[[Image:SuperIgorsig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Purple"><tt>I</tt>g<tt>o</tt>r<tt></tt> 19:30, 15 March 2008 (EDT)


 * Just put it in the variants. If you're going into an area that hex-heavy you'll put it on the bar, anyway. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] <font color="black" face="calibri">Mafaraxas  19:32, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
 * Keep in mind most of the henchmen in the game have some sort of hex removal, so I support adding it to variants for just hex heavy areas. &mdash;  ク  Eloc  <font color="Black">貢  22:56, 17 March 2008 (EDT)
 * I disagree. This build has no prot or hex removal; either you win or you lose. Hexes are almost never the deciding factor of a loss if you're running sabway; if they are, adding a single hex removal skill won't matter. - Auron 14:03, 18 March 2008 (EDT)

Ok, im at 53/54 vanquishing tyria, and the only massive problem as has been said before is hex removal, ice imps in southern shiverpeaks chain deep freeze and maelstrom, making it very difficult to a) run b) cast hex removal  c) stay alive  d) kill foes

this isnt area specific its an entire region, im running blessed light monk with three variants from this original build, trying to keep up... and let me tell you, its not so easy. flag heroes sure but the ice imps dont ball and they do go for the backline, so before long your hench and heros suffer from a) to d) and the party wipes, in essence this build is good, but im guessing people either exaggerate there claims of perfect build, or spend half the night meticulously vanquishing one area.

using this build as posted or with the variants posted in the southern shiverpeaks, i would suggest an ample stock of DP removers/consumables, some other areas were easier, and i'd really like to see slavers completed in 14 mins h&h lol ****

most hexes in PvE are just spam spam and spam, it doesn't really matter since the hero can't see wich is important to remove, a Migraine or a Conjure Phantasm.So, you can just heal the degen caused by hexes with no problem, only on areas with dangerous hexes like spiteful spirit, faithenartedness, insidious parasite, price of failure is that you should bring hex removal, otherwise just heal Drownz 11:39, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

Extinguish vs. Foul Feast; 4-man vs. 6/8-man
Extinguish was changed to Foul Feast with no discussion on this page. Which skill works better, for which party size? In addition, the article was changed from being based on a 8-man H&H party to a 4-man party (with a variant for 6-8-man that switches Extinguish for Foul Feast). Most of the game is 8, so what's the logic behind these changes? If there is none, than a revert back to the version with the Extinguish bar is needed. --War Pig5 07:45, 20 March 2008 (EDT)
 * I use this build quite often, and I really have no preference which is used, but this build definitely does work best for an 8 man party. &mdash;  ク  Eloc  <font color="Black">貢  11:17, 20 March 2008 (EDT)
 * Just being devil's advocate here, but the reason for being able to vanquish with a 4 man party would probably have something more to do with loot than speed. Also... I would hope that 8 people can clear faster and stay alive easier than 4. - PANIC!  [[Image:panic_sig3.gif|20px]]  pewpewpew!  11:20, 20 March 2008 (EDT)

i'd take extinguish over foul feast on condition-heavy areas, but, i'd say that foul feast is kinda pointless, the necro will already have infinite energy due to minions being bombed and the mobs killing themselvs with spiteful spirit Drownz 11:42, 23 March 2008 (EDT)
 * Foul Feast gives health to the MM only while Extinguish gives conditional health to the whole team. Seeing as the MM is the most important team member to keep alive, I'm going to refrain from reverting Foul Feast&rarr;Extinguish for the time being. --War Pig5 04:03, 30 March 2008 (EDT)

To my mind, Extinguish is way way better because it provides party-wide condition remove combinated with a short recharge..When you face Searing Flames foes the MM easily ruins their party.. Also good against disease and poison Stefan247 12:09, 5 April 2008 (EDT)


 * @Panic: vanqing with 4 ppl has nothing to do with loot or speed... it has to do with the fact that in some areas you're limited to a party size of 4. ups, your bad. 71.230.145.170 20:43, 27 July 2008 (EDT)
 * ups-- Shadow [[Image:Relyk Sig.gif]] 15:57, 20 September 2008 (EDT)

Only Pve Team build not totally phased out by Ursan
Hey has anyone noticed this is the only build other than ursans that is in the team section of the 'great working general pve-builds'? Wtbursanswtsizzy 01:31, 25 March 2008 (EDT)
 * Nope. &mdash;  ク  Eloc  <font color="Black">貢  04:05, 25 March 2008 (EDT)
 * Not the sort of thing I'd notice either I'm afraid. -- Mala [[Image:MalasigMagebane_Shot.jpg]] 09:52, 25 March 2008 (EDT)
 * PvE is just take Nuker, frontliners, Splinter Weapon, and Monks and then attack stuff. --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  09:53, 25 March 2008 (EDT)
 * You can win PvE with flare spammers, it isn't rocket science. - <font color="#000080">(sē nīl' dĭ-mĕn'shə) [[Image:Elementalist-icon-small.png]] [snō hwīt tăn] 09:57, 25 March 2008 (EDT)
 * "Actually, there are several rockets mounted to the..."
 * "Blah blah blah... Let's go already!" - PANIC!  [[Image:panic_sig3.gif|20px]]  pewpewpew!  10:03, 25 March 2008 (EDT)
 * Your logic is flawed too... User:.Terran./Build:Team - The Great Dwarf Army. Another great and I didn't look that hard for them. Misery 10:12, 25 March 2008 (EDT)
 * He meant as opposed to  -  PANIC!  [[Image:panic_sig3.gif|20px]]  pewpewpew!  10:22, 25 March 2008 (EDT)
 * Meh, that quote was on the edge of my brain and I had to look it up -.- Great episode, though. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] <font color="black" face="calibri">Mafaraxas 12:13, 25 March 2008 (EDT)
 * I'm one of the three people I know who knew who the Moody Blues were. And the only one who got the poetry reference. - PANIC!  [[Image:panic_sig3.gif|20px]]  pewpewpew!  12:15, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

Ahem, perhaps I should have phrased my statement better before getting flamed to death, which is my fault. This IS the only build under the Teams section in the Great General Pve Builds section of the pvxwiki database. I was merely noticing that all the other builds there were Ursanway and that this was not. Secondly, I know that pve isn't "rocket science" however you can't clear areas in HM (which we all know is an oxymoron) with flare spammers. (Unless they're very good flare spammers). Pve is absurdly easy even in HM with a remotely competent team. I was merely stating that as far as OVERALL effectiveness this was the only build that still is comparable to Ursanway in ease of use and total pwnge.

Wtbursanswtsizzy 12:02, 25 March 2008 (EDT)


 * It isnt phased out because its as "imba" as Ursan is. [[Image:SuperIgorsig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Purple"><tt>И</tt>г<tt>о</tt>р<tt>ь</tt> 12:15, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

How is this is imba 74.39.75.112 22:03, 27 March 2008 (EDT)Palin Oni
 * Try playing through an area (with exploitable corpses) in HM with it. Then play the same area in HM without it.  (If you don't have the necros, try Soul Reaping) --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] <font color="black" face="calibri">Mafaraxas  01:42, 28 March 2008 (EDT)

I thought this was a well thought out synergizing team that just uses whats available in the game to beat areas. I mean to beat an area requires you to outsmart the terrain which this is great at. Try thinking of the fact that it's still possible to beat any area these guys can with a balance team that knows whats gonna happen in the area. things go flavor of the month then get beaten after a while because people know what to expect, enemies cant outsmart this in pve so this wins a lot in pve. I mean come on to beat HM this is great because you know what to expect there, it exploits enemy buffs to beat it, why is that imba. Ursan though is imba because it pretty much takes no skill that i can't argue so no arguments on that.Imbagon is pve so i won't give a crap if its imba(is).74.39.75.112 13:43, 28 March 2008 (EDT)Palin Oni

Usage - add "Set all to guard"?
The usage sections lacks the "set to guard" clause of the other hero builds. I don't want to add it, however, before asking what others are using. The healer may hold ashes better on Avoid, or use Splinter Weapon better on Guard... I haven't paid much attention before now; I have always set all to Guard. --War Pig5 04:43, 30 March 2008 (EDT)
 * Guard works best as they wont be a tempted to run out and aggro someone really far away, and if they are on avoid, then I don't think they use the Signet of Lost Souls. &mdash;  ク  Eloc  <font color="Black">貢  00:19, 1 April 2008 (EDT)
 * They also kite way too far and can draw unwanted aggro on Avoid (that is, if you're unlucky/too lazy to pull half a radar like me). --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] <font color="black" face="calibri">Mafaraxas 01:12, 1 April 2008 (EDT)
 * To confirm Eloc's statement, heroes will NOT use the signet when set to Avoid Combat. Anything other than Guard makes the heroes less effective.69.157.64.199 22:38, 13 April 2008 (EDT)

Complementary heroes?
If I'm vanquishing with a second person who's also bringing heroes, what would be a good set of heroes for them to take? I don't think that taking a second set of Sabway necros would work, since the MMs would probably steal corpses from each other, and the weapon spells of the healers would cancel each other out. What would be a good alternative set of heroes for the second person to take? I was thinking possibly a N/Mo healer with WoH, since it could benefit from Soul Reaping too, and 2 AoL dervishes to do even more damage from Mark of Pain. -- Aequus 22:40, 22 April 2008 (EDT)
 * monk heals are dependent on divine favor bonus--without that, they suck compared to rit. i would take an IV spiker specced to utility (ie, whatever is needed to support the players or deal with specific threats in the areas), a second healer N/Rt (the weapon spells go away VERY quickly so shouldn't be a problem), and then a straight monk.  but it would kinda depend what the two player characters were, and what area it was.--Reason.decrystallized 23:15, 22 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Whenever i go vanquishing with someone, i make sure the first question i ask is 'Do you have sabway?' if they say yes, get them to add them, 2*Sabway is actually effective. Even against abbadon! (Honestly, me and a random person took the sabway builds in HM to abbadon, pwned him in ~10 minutes, we even took both MM's though they didn't really do anything.Lt Death 11:14, 5 May 2008 (EDT)
 * ~10 minutes to kill Abbadon? o_____o I thought I was slow when I did it in 6 minutes.  Lol.  Anyway, if you want to try a N/Mo of some sort, make it carry all Prot stuff.  And hex removal and stuff.  Prot doesn't really need the Divine Favour bonus and a prot monk is the recommended hench...probably would be best.  Throw in maybe another SS necro and maybe a Ranger or Mesmer interupter of some sort.  Probably be much more effective than the double MM corpse suckers. =P  --Srakin 15:02, 16 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I don't think vanquishing in 30-40 minutes on most areas with duo sabway supports your 'double MM corpse suckers' And yes.. 10 minutes as it is incredibly difficult with 2 MM's and the rest of the team relying on them for e management. Other than that, i'd agree with you on prot monk, ele, interupter and hex removal (The person can play any of these, not the hex removal too good though). -Lt Death 07:00, 14 August 2008 (EDT)

Bogroot and Arachnis?
Run this build a lot for vanquishing with a game buddy and 6 heros; 3 SF eles, and 1 Mo and one other depending on area, no need to a tank once minions are up and definately no ursan. Think about running a second MM with this build in Bogroot and Arachnis in HM, have rampaged through both areas with a small army. Its great for taking out the large groups. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Blaze Oreon (contribs).

FoW AND UW
Recently i've been testing this in these two places, mostly because i like to take it too it's limits. FoW - EPIC VICTORY! Except Slaves of Menzies.. this may just be because that is the first time me and my teammate did that quest. Also we seemed to over aggro a lot on that quest. UW - 50/50 I was working with a necro they didn't use either of these builds but their own hexes one, We also kicked an MM due to lack of corpses anyway - we took melonni and made her a tank, this turned out rather effective and worked until i went afk then we died (Never going afk in UW again) We'll also be testing it more soon. Lt Death 05:06, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

ritualist
what kind of build should u run as a ritualist if you have these three necs? im usually a mm bomber rit and then i bring a icy veins necro instead of an mm but i wnana see what u guys thinkKlomi 09:45, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * If you took the standard triple necro, you could go as spirit spammer and drop the prot on the Jagged MM for Splinter Weapon and AR. Probably your best bet. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] <font color="black" face="calibri">Mafaraxas  13:36, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * If you DO play Spirit Spam, be sure to take the Prot spirits. (Union, Dissonance, Shelter etc.) --Srakin 15:05, 16 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I would NOT take prot spirits in combination with minions since your spirits will die within seconds (Silicon Based 05:53, 29 September 2008 (EDT))

I think an Expel hexes rit would be nice, i dont know how to put a the build thing in, so here is the template code, OAWjEOiMJP6ulw1Gj5Nn2YukL.

SS Necro
I've vanquished quite a few areas with this build, and completed a few missions in hard mode too. Works great except for one thing. My SS Necro (Olias) is fully rune/Insignia equipped, but for some reason he always charges up into combat getting himself hit and often killed. All three heroes are set to Guard, and Olias is wielding a staff. He has no touch range skills either, so I don't really know why he wants to jump right into the middle of things all the time. Any suggestions? --Srakin 15:08, 16 May 2008 (EDT)
 * he's the only one with offensive spells - he's going to be the one to run forward. just run forward yourself first, or micro Prot Spirit on him. 24.63.206.168 22:26, 22 May 2008 (EDT)

A comment
I just wanted to ask, if someone could add the variants from the guru thread (I would do it myself, but I have still some problems using html^^)

Outdated
the build has been updated from its form on the page - shall we add the new builds + variants? 24.63.206.168 22:26, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * How is this outdated? Because it doesn't use any of the skills from Eye of the North? &mdash;  ク  Eloc  <font color="Black">貢  11:48, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Well, Sab recently posted a new thread for Sabway at Guru here that does indeed use GWEN skills. ScythXIII 14:26, 27 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Or you could keep the 4-5 same skills on each bar between versions and leave 2-3 changed slots optional (like they basically are). The only significantly different bar is the MM. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] <font color="black" face="calibri">Mafaraxas  15:24, 27 May 2008 (EDT)

Does that team own heart of shiverpeak ?
Cyndr for sure. Syn 22:12, 21 June 2008 (EDT)

old version
woulldnt the healer need SoLS to get energy back, why replace it with FF?
 * Because FF gives energy and health and removes conditions from others? &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:User_Poki_Signature.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]] 20:02, 29 June 2008 (EDT)

Shambling Horror
What is the point of Jagged Bones then? Needs to be switched back to Bone Minions. Avatar Kuzon 16:54, 5 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Iirc it makes 2 at the end. &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Rawr. 16:56, 5 July 2008 (EDT)
 * It's for casting on Bone Fiends and other Jagged Horrors. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:User_Poki_Signature.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]] 06:22, 8 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Still, Bone Minions = meat shield, as well as they're versatile. You can easily get a quick 10-minion army in even small areas. Bone Fiends don't do much in defense, and Shambling Horrors make unreliable meat walls. --[[Image:GoD Wario Sig.PNG]]<font color="Black"> * Wah <font color="DAA520">Wah  Wah! * 21:29, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

It defiantly should be Bone minions Because there are not always enough bodies this allows for more jagged horrors 22:39, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

rip
i replace rip enchant with envenom enchants because enimies already are bleeding frim jaggeds and it put another condition out there. 69.47.174.203 08:45, 14 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Envenom Enchantments has a 20 second recharge and Rip Enchantment has a 10 second recharge. It's not about the conditions, Rip Enchant is just a better enchant removal. Besides, if you're relying on -4 degen to kill mobs, you're probably playing the game wrong.98.145.166.170 13:06, 14 July 2008 (EDT) 12:06, 14 July 2008 (CST)

Last time I checked, bleeding caused -3 degeneration.-- Itamar  <font color="#D70000">   06:26, 1 August 2008 (EDT)

True, but poison causes -4 degen. I believe that is what he was referring to. Lightseeker 13:14, 11 August 2008 (EDT)

Not working
I'm using the exact build here, and it just fails. I couldn't even go half-way through snake dance, the minions master cannot get enough minions up with a 25s recharge and a 25 energy as his only way of creating minions, and when one of the heroes inevitably dies the others res with death pact signet and then get themselves killed because of it resulting in a party wipe in about 30 seconds. I just wasted 3 hours trying this build, MM (NOT using animate bone fiend which is just horrible), LoD monk and a WoH monk works way better IMO.


 * "the minions master cannot get enough minions up with a 25s recharge and a 25 energy as his only way of creating minions": 1) jagged bones. 2) whatever anonymous made the big change which included bone minions into bone fiend was wrong, about that and many other things. but seriously, i h/h-ed Duncan the Black with this build.  if you can't handle snake dance, then ... perhaps the problem is in usage more than skill selection.--Reason.decrystallized 18:49, 20 July 2008 (EDT)
 * From "It has been successfully used for Vanquishing and acquiring Protector titles with much ease and minimal hero micro-managing" suggests that it isn't supposed to take any effort to use, but tbh if you have played enough guild wars to unlock the 3 elite skills then you should be able to use any build properly; PvE gw isn't exactly the most skill based game in the world. Basically it seems that somebody changed the page to a load of rubbish and it hasn't been reverted, so I'm going to try again later with skills which seem sensible (like not having foul feast on the healer :s)
 * I think I reverted it to the right version...  19:20, 20 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Yeah, that's much better than the crap that it got changed to without consensus.--Reason.decrystallized 20:12, 20 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Awesome, works really well now. I changed blood of the master for infused condition though.
 * Sorry, but this works and is the same thing as posted here by the original author. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:User_Poki_Signature.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]] 08:22, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
 * (EC)Wasn't changed to a load of rubbish tbh. I haven't had a problem with it so far. Though I must admit that it was strange at first, right after switching to the newer version. It was changed btw cause the original creator posted it as his new version, as he didn't use any eye of the north skills yet. And foul feast is awesome, wut are u talking about QQ -- Sazzy  08:25, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
 * And honestly, the thing with Sabway is people who use it a lot usually never use this exact team. I don't use a N/Rt healer, I use a N/Mo one. I don't use Jagged Bones on my MM, I use Tainted Flesh or IV. It's all really about tweaking and changing to fit whatever issues you find with it. --[[Image:GoD Wario Sig.PNG]]<font color="Black"> * Wah <font color="DAA520">Wah  Wah! * 09:05, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
 * "(NOT using animate bone fiend which is just horrible)" You dont use bone fiend due to the fact it is a minion BOMBER. Fiends suck for bombing because they don't rush in and make asplosions with death nova. they asplode away from the mob. Maybe a sray warrior will run in and attack but it wil only hit one target. but by using bone minions they will die fast inside the mob and there will a ton of death nova asplosions inside the mob. Plus you will get extra minons when the minions die. So Fiends suck for this build sorry to diappoint. =P---Wikiguru 11:12, 26 July 2008 (EDT)

Question about heroes
What setting should i set my heroes too for them to use this build perfectly?<font color="Red">kill<font color="Orange">A <font color="Blue">runa  <font color="#D70000"> Leet! 08:35, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Throw SS and MM on Guard and put the N/Rt on Avoid. The MM on Guard is important because the minions pretty much won't attack unless the hero does iirc. - PANIC!  [[Image:Panic_sig4.png|50px|18px]] <font color="#D70000"> sexiness!  08:48, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
 * actually they just follow the master until they aggro something, then attack until either they die or there are no enemies in their aggro circle, whereupon they resume following. but if the master is set to avoid, then he's less likely to aggro, and therefore the minions don't aggro, either.--Reason.decrystallized 08:57, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
 * So actually minions pretty much won't attack unless the hero does like I just said. - PANIC!  [[Image:Panic_sig4.png|50px|18px]] <font color="#D70000"> sexiness!  09:06, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
 * well, more precisely, they won't attack unless he aggros. he doesn't actually have to attack.  but yeah.--Reason.decrystallized 09:18, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
 * From experience on my MM, Minions do charge in when you attack. Thus, you could probably shoot with a longbow (and out of aggro range) and Minions would go in. Just a note. Also, don't debate on such a measley problem. --[[Image:GoD Wario Sig.PNG]]<font color="Black"> * Wah <font color="DAA520">Wah  Wah! * 09:20, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
 * We're talking about heroes and getting their minions to attack. Also, 3 sentences is not a debate. Be less of a wikimommy plx. - PANIC!  [[Image:Panic_sig4.png|50px|18px]] <font color="#D70000"> sexiness!  09:28, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Just saying, next thing you know it's "PANIC YOU'RE A COMPLETE ASSHOLE". But I was really just kidding. Anyway, heroes usually attack when your party attacks, so yeah. --[[Image:GoD Wario Sig.PNG]]<font color="Black"> * Wah <font color="DAA520">Wah  Wah! * 09:30, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
 * and we both agree on the right setting, anyway, we're just trying to figure out how a game mechanic actually works.--Reason.decrystallized 09:30, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
 * I think the N/Rt won't use Signet of Lost Souls for energy if set to avoid. I run him on Guard mode. - Lud 08:45, 23 October 2008 (EDT)

K thanks for the info!<font color="Red">kill<font color="Orange">A <font color="Blue">runa  <font color="#D70000"> Leet! 08:03, 24 July 2008 (EDT)

4-man version
The 4-man variant suggested on the build page is nothing like the 4-man variant sab suggests in this thread. Perhaps some more complete information should be added regarding this? -Pixelz 14:26, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

My Variant - AoE Max Degeneration
I replaced Blood of The Master (No need to heal the bombs) with Disease and Rip Enchantments (Only one Enchantment is removed and bleeding is probably already inflicted form the minions) with Suffering. These two skills combined with bleeding from the minions accumulate to a max (Area of Effect) -10 degenerations. Works great for me, even better from the current PvX build, so I thought that I should share it with the community :) -- Itamar  <font color="#D70000">   06:15, 1 August 2008 (EDT)


 * AoE = Area of Effect, not Environment, fyi. -- Mafaraxas ( talk ) 22:18, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

Thank you. Changed it. -- Itamar  <font color="#D70000">   06:12, 1 August 2008

Bye bye Weapon of remedy, hello Xinrae's weapon
More life steal, one shot 5% protspirit effect, yes please. Metasynaptic 21:44, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Iz gud--<font color=#C68E17>Golden [[image:Goldenstar.JPG|19px]]<font color=#C68E17>Star 21:45, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Do heroes use it well, or do they suck with it, kind of relevant for Sabway. - Misery  Is  Grumpy  [[image:miserysig3.png|19px]] 12:02, 8 August 2008 (EDT)
 * It was mostly used for the life steal rather than the condition removal. Heroes will use it like they used Vengeful Weapon, so basically the same. 122.104.165.13 02:56, 10 August 2008 (EDT)
 * From wiki: "Heroes are utterly incapable of using this skill intelligently as of 13 August." hows it do on this?  B y  a  k  k  o  [[Image:User_Byakko_Byakkopaw.png|User Page]] 09:37, 15 August 2008 (EDT)
 * MoW seems to cast it autonomously just fine.

Stop putting survivor insignias on wiki
They were cheap before the wiki put them on every build. Bad players clung to their radiant insignias letting good playing buy survivors for chips. Now it's the most expensive insignia. 122.104.165.13 03:17, 10 August 2008 (EDT)

bad. you. --<font color="Black">Readem 03:26, 10 August 2008 (EDT)

And that's made me millions of gold. The profit model is working. --71.229.253.172 03:28, 10 August 2008 (EDT)


 * you're right, you figured us out. we were all just miserable scrubs sitting around with hundreds of survivor insignias, wondering how we could ever afford radiant.  and then someone (I think it was skakid) goes, "dude.  i have it.  we just need to put survivor insignia on every build, the price will go up, and we can get rid of the crappy things and buy radiant."  and that's why there are survivor insignia on nearly every build.--Reason.decrystallized 07:24, 10 August 2008 (EDT)
 * What is wrong with radiant :) i almost always use them on most characters and heroes and i have no problems, Calling people bad players shows just how mature some people are... T1Cybernetic 11:37, 10 August 2008 (EDT)
 * I hurd it doesn't really matter what insignias you use in PvE. - Misery  Is  Grumpy  [[image:miserysig3.png|19px]] 11:46, 10 August 2008 (EDT)
 * so long as it's useful, yeah. in pvp though, survivor's are far more useful, but not obligatory--some builds, you just have to have extra energy to pull off.--Reason.decrystallized 11:52, 10 August 2008 (EDT)

Jagged MM Necro
Dwayna's Sorrow may be quite handy to put on the MM hero.
 * I'd rather put Infuse Condition on the MM (I run that), so that he wouldn't be affected by conditions. &mdash; [[Image:DestructiveWasGlaiveInvert.jpg|20px]] <font color="#00ff84">eX <font color="#00a2ff">tinctioN (<font color="#ff8a00">Talk /<font color="#ff5400">Contributions ) 11:13, 14 August 2008 (EDT)

Xinrae's
Overrating of a newly buffed skill is, well, overrated. WoR provides decent healing and good Condition removal. +1 for WoR > Xinrae's. -- <small style="font-variant:small-caps;font-family:Verdana;border-style:solid;border-width:2px;border-color:red;background-color:gold;padding:0px 5px 1px 6px;"> Guild  of   Deals   14:05, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Xinrae's is better for HM where everything autoattacks for 100+ damage. -- Mafaraxas ( talk ) 14:15, 27 September 2008 (EDT)


 * Agree whit maf 82.196.197.234 06:20, 29 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Are you certain heroes use it well? The Official wiki says they don't . I'm sticking with WoR until XW is thoroughly tested. --War Pig5 05:46, 2 October 2008 (EDT) Update: official wiki statement (added by anonymous user) about heroes not using this well is wrong according to testing done by us nonyomous PvXwiki users. I'm switching over to Xinrae's for HM. --War Pig5 07:39, 3 October 2008 (EDT)

3 necros
I find i usually don't have 3 necros most of the time ( i always choose margrid over MoW since margrid's path is a million times easier IMO) and I have replaced the Rit Necro with a E/RT. It works absolutely fine (even though I know a necro is more eeffective). Just give it GoLE. Just a replacement until you can get your last hero. Evangel 19:47, 30 September 2008 (EDT)

Suggestion for a player or a 4th if teamed with another
To begin with I love this team build but I have noticed the weakness of hex removal, that's why I suggest bringing along a VoR Mesmer hero/player. Switch out an un needed power for Shatter hex, at 12+1+1 I believe I have it on my PVE mes is over 100 armor ignoring damage. Second by using a VoR mes and calling a target it in the middle of the mob the mob will not only be taking from SS from the hexed target but taking damage from VoR. Third if you use a mesmer player gives you access to the epic ability Cry of Pain.Mesmerizer101 02:33, 8 October 2008 (EDT)Mesmerizer101
 * Sabway is leet by itself. It's so leet that it has no need for hex removal(well....). Anyways, it just needs a source of daze and then you can lolpve. Life Guardian 02:34, 8 October 2008 (EDT)

Ascalon
Ok I just started Vanquishing and I plan on doing it in order starting with prophecies vanquishing areas and doing missions in order. Half way through this stupid region (I think just after the second mission) I get to this place where there are lots of Grawl and Charr and I find I can't kill them no matter what I try, I can't be arsed caravan vanquishing at I don't have the time. How do you get through this area? If it's any use I am an ele. IsaiahRossario 10:46, 8 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Go H/H from Yak's Bend if you can't get through with a 4 person team. You don't have to clear every area in between, so you can get there rather quickly.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 10:50, 8 October 2008 (EDT)
 * even if I did do that to get to the area I am stuck on I would have to travel through Traveler's Vale > Ascalon Foothills > Diessa Lowlands > The Breach > Old Ascalon > Regent Valley > Pockmarck Flats just to get to Eastern Frontier and all of that in HM without stopping in any towns or to many deaths or alot of wasted DP removal items. IsaiahRossario 14:59, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Don't use sabway if you can't use it tbh-- Shadow [[Image:Relyk Sig.gif]] 04:54, 13 October 2008 (EDT)

MM annoying
I dont like MM, not beacuse of minion, but because that he is casting jagged bones and death nova all the time and he doesnt walk after me. And when we meet group of enemies, minions with MM are back and we're fighting without minions (at the start, then they come)! --88.200.127.33 04:56, 15 October 2008 (EDT)ValeV
 * It's something you have to deal with; death nova is half the reason this build is good in HM. You just need to move a little closer in at the beginning of a fight so your MM and their minions move within aggro range right away. -- Mafaraxas  ( talk ) 09:50, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
 * So... wait for your MM? It's only like five extra seconds. <font face="Calibri" size="1"> - [[Image:Tai_MS.jpg|19px]] STAЯ ØŦ ΣX1LΣ 10:00, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
 * so flag him in first, let the minions aggro, then flag him back. that's the way that you play mm with a real player, too.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized    I frenzy-healsig.  14:57, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
 * fucking anet had to make MMs the slowest moving persons on the planet. I preferred before when all their minions degend to death and they only had like 2. God  box    15:17, 15 October 2008 (EDT)
 * One or two copies of "Fall Back!" helps alot. Minions still move slower relative to people, but the hero won't need to stop to cast BotM. -- Mafaraxas  ( talk ) 15:25, 15 October 2008 (EDT)

i think
this page needs an archive. <font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  11:28, 28 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Why...it works. unless you mean the talk page--66.192.104.13 13:07, 28 October 2008 (EDT)
 * hes talking about the talk page, and yes, he's right, unfortunately i dont know how. Alpha fireborn[[Image:Alpha Fireborn Cripshot.JPG|19px]] 14:01, 28 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Me neither XD [[Image:Muffin.jpg|19px]]<font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  15:28, 28 October 2008 (EDT)