Archive talk:N/Me SS Nuker

How to improve
Now that SS costs 15 energy, echoing it becomes really energy intensive (45 energy just for AE and 2 times SS). Maybe raise Soul Reaping and use Signet of Lost Souls. I think Spinal Shivers can be dropped. --Olivenmann 15:01, 2 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Echoing SS worked fine for me before the buff to 10e, without any energy management skills and spamming a bunch of other high cost spells too. --Edru viransu //QQ about me 23:20, 18 August 2007 (CEST)

Blood Ritual should be taken out for Enfeebling Blood - it's without a doubt one of the best skills in pve. It can render a huge mob of melee near harmless. I still disagree with the use of Awaken the Blood in an echo/SS build when you can just use Defile/Desecrate enchantments for added aoe damage....better damage and less attribute spread. P A R A S I T I C 03:54, 22 July 2007 (CEST)

I say we change to..... [build prof=Necromancer/any Curses=12+1+3 Soul=11+1 Blood=6+1][Awaken the Blood][Spiteful Spirit@18][Reckless Haste@18][Defile Enchantments@18][Desecrate Enchantments@18][Signet of Lost Souls][Optional][Resurrection Signet][/build] basically removed echo, thus more energy. AtB will allow stronger SS and everything else, so it's not a loss - damage wise. Enfeebling blood is useless in NM, but quite lovable in HM imo. (added as variant at front) -- Grumpy (Talk | Contrib) 00:55, 2 September 2007 (CEST)

Echo is very important in this build! If you get a large group of enemies you can spam SS 4 times, thats 4*37 on each foe each time they attack thats significant damage. IMO keep echo as its the core of this build espically in general PvE.Metal milita 07:11, 17 September 2007 (CEST)
 * Well, as everyone know heroes are bad with Arcane Echo so this is a good build specially for hero necro. - Jope16 20:06, 21 November 2007 (CET)

With "Awaken the Blood" and Atts set to Curses=12+1+3 Soul=8+1 Blood=10+1 it is possble to use it permanent by casting with and +20% longer enchantment weapon equiped. Talktest 11:22, May 18, 2010 (UTC)

Weapons
I found a staff called Villnar's Staff, which can be found by Villnar Painforge. Will his staff work, becasue not only it is for curses, but also deals cold damage. --Al

Stonereaper is perfect for this build and looks spiffy. --Rolo 10:21, 20 January 2008 (EST)

Echo?
Um why? 10 sec Rec... Readem (talk *pvxcontribs ) 04:51, 19 July 2007 (CEST)
 * its pve you dont need utility more straight up damage is better =P Skakid9090 04:52, 19 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Don't understand...bring SF then lolol. Readem (talk *pvxcontribs ) 04:53, 19 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Nvm, I bring this as a hero always now:

It Pwns. Readem (talk *pvxcontribs ) 04:57, 19 July 2007 (CEST)

yeah... go winter.... nub ^^

imo - Skakid9090 04:59, 19 July 2007 (CEST)

imo, focusing necros on damage is a waste of time. - Auron 05:12, 19 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Highest DPS in the game right there. Now you just have to reach and be able to hit your foes. - [[Image:Kowal.jpg|15px]] Krowman   05:16, 19 July 2007 (CEST)
 * and only attack one at a time, rather than slapping SS on two or three or five of them and watching the screen fill up with pretty yellow 37's.--Reason.decrystallized 13:56, 19 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Death blossom is AoE in case you missed it. - Auron 13:58, 19 July 2007 (CEST)
 * I didn't--I play that sin build a lot, and, yeah, highest armor-ignoring melee damage in game (although some scythe-sin builds can get twice the DPS, but armor-affected). But it's still usually less damage than multiple SS castings, and you still have to close with your target to do it.--Reason.decrystallized 14:09, 19 July 2007 (CEST)
 * And most of the sins I've seen in PvE are happy with their Vig Spirit/Live Vicariously builds, or their random jumble of leads, duals, and offhands. Too bad heroes also fail at using moebius builds, they tend to spam their primary combo a lot and leave Moebius Strike alone. Tycn 14:13, 19 July 2007 (CEST)

Necrosis?
Would it work?? Dean 06:43, 18 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Yes. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 06:47, 18 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Be aware though, that Necrosis isn't AoE spell and cannot be used by heroes. Dr4goN 21:12, 25 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Maybe if solo farming a boss or something, but other than that its kind of a wasted slot. You kill too fastly(or should)to have the time to use this.--Fallen 23:38, 22 September 2007 (CEST)

Without reckless?
Is the PvE SSbuild viable without Reckless haste (without Any of the factions-skills..)? I do not have factions. Any ideas what to replace it with? I've got nightfall, and most of the skills from both campaigns. 84.217.141.46 05:35, 3 September 2007 (CEST)kurokishi

I do not use Reckless haste. The only thing this does is speed up the attacks from your monsters which in turn makes Spiteful Spirit work faster. However, in hard mode the monsters already attack as fast as possible. I have been working on my ss build for about 6 mo now and have found that the following skills (in the following order) work the best for me: Spiteful Spirit, Arcane Echo, Defile Enchantments, Desecrate Enchantments, Suffering, Parasitic Bond, Insidious Parasite (or other healing), and Signet of Lost Souls. My attributes are 16 curses and 14 soul reaping. I have no trouble with energy management!!! I could even throw in a Blood Ritual or Awaken the Blood and up my blood attributes and still be okay with energy management. I use a 20/20 wand and the Nehpek's Focus. Now I am not sure which skills I use are Factions but I would try replacing them with similar skills from NF, Prophecies, or GWEN (if you have it). 27 September 2007 Lady Linas

More optional slots, please
All SS builds are more or less the same. I think people should decide if they want Arcane Echo and/or Awaken the Blood. A generic "N/x Spiteful Spirit" build with optional slots would be better than presenting energy heavy and IMO outdated Arcane Echo builds. A list of possible optional skills/variants would be better. The point is that a SS build with Mark of Pain, Necrosis and Enfeebling Blood is hardly mentioned here. If one would create this build people would still say "it already exists" for good reasons. This build needs to be reworked. It would not hurt to make 2-3 slots optional and show a variety of possible skills to fill in, and allow a N/x build rather than N/Me only. --Longasc 15:54, 26 September 2007 (CEST)
 * Arcane echo is, by far, the strongest choice. Simply put, 2x SS = 2x damage.  Some people have said things about energy, but arcane echo should be pre-cast, so there isn't really much of a problem.  Note that strongest != funnest, necessarily.
 * But on the other hand, I do agree that there should be optional slots in this build. Blood ritual, reckless haste are definitely both optional, and I'm pretty sure there are stronger PvE only options out there than desecrate/defile.  --Thc 18:49, 27 September 2007 (CEST)


 * I agree! Let's give some optional slots.  I think that arcane echo and blood ritual should be optional slots.  There are so many varients that can be placed here and the ss build offered really leaves no room for options.  Like Longasc suggested I would use either arcane echo or awaken the blood...There are a multitude of skills that could be used in place of blood ritual and the ones I would use do not involve blood attributes.  So if we are talking about reworking this build to be N/x insted of N/Me then the attributes should be changed.  Blood magic is not always necessary in a ss build.  It really depends on where you are fighting and who you are fighting with.  I do not use blood magic unless I am in a group/team setting or need extra attribute points.  If I am fighting solo or with henchies/heros/husband and his heros I only work with curses damage and soul reaping skills.  When using the correct runes, attribute points in the correct places, and weapons there is no need to worry about energy management or damage.  I have found that when I use awaken the blood I take points from soul reaping to compensate and I am not getting enough energy to cast my spells (with using signet of lost souls) even though I am doing a tiny amount more damage.  Therefore, I think that unless you are in a group and helping with energy management there is no reason to use blood skills in this specific ss build.  Using an offhand or wand (or both) with a curses +1 and a major rune of curses is a must in my opinion if the individual is not using awaken the blood.  This makes up for not having to use a skill to get those extra attribute points and your build can focus more on damage and keeping yourself alive insted.  27 September 2007 Lady Linas

Disagree, people come here to get builds and go. — Skakid9090 20:38, 30 September 2007 (CEST)
 * Exactly. Also, we have a variants section for that. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 03:43, 7 October 2007 (CEST)

Dungeons
This build already has a ton of variants, but in the GWEN dungeons (specifically Slavers' Exile), replacing Defile or Desecrate with Mark of Pain with a Barrage/Splinter Ranger in the group can easily stack absurd aoe damage.Thorton2006 12:35, 24 December 2007 (EST)

Insidious Parasite
I'm surprised doesn't accompany SS. It follows the strategy of the build, provides punishment damage to more targets as well as defensive health gain/kill troublesome target faster--ideal when you don't want to waste SS on a lone ranger/warrior/assassin/wanding caster. --Rolo 13:02, 12 January 2008 (EST)
 * not really an ideal skill for pve.24.47.18.113 18:12, 16 January 2008 (EST)
 * Why not? IP can provide excellent damage and some form of a self heal as well. If you are good with Signet of Lost Souls and hex placement it can be devastating.  --aceoshadows1 18:54, 16 January 2008 (EST)
 * Yes, why not? What would you do when one Dredge Gutter wails on you or one Gardner pelts you with his arrows?  Waste SS on it and hope you don't die before it does?  Cast IP on it and forget about it.  IP neutralises damage received while ensuring the offender won't last long.  IP is never not useful in PvE.  Additionally, IP stacks with SS for those sturdier bosses/lvl 28's and assassins, using their IAS against them.  --Rolo 09:38, 17 January 2008 (EST)
 * because its a single target hex. useful in some situations, but i wouldnt put it on the main bar.24.47.18.113 17:34, 19 January 2008 (EST)
 * Some situations? Foes aren't always clumped and they don't always stay clumped.  Both single-target and AoE are always useful in PvE; SS/IP allows the punisher to efficiently deal with both.  Besides, there are already five single-target skills (two being hexes) listed in the Variants.  In NM, SS-hexed targets don't live long enough for Reckless Haste to be stacked with it, leaving RH mostly unused; IP allows you to punish more targets and IP stacks perfectly on bosses who inevitably wand (at a cost of 84 damage ouch).  IP's life-stealing neutralises the foe beating on you directly...if it misses, so what, if it hits, you will either take negligible damage or you will gain a little health.  I think RH is a better HM variant to IP, but--at a minimum--IP should be listed in the Variants section.  --Rolo 10:21, 20 January 2008 (EST)
 * I thought RH loses the majority of it's power in HM (as it doesn't speed up your target(s) anymore)? Am I missing something when I don't understand why you would pick RH over IP in HM? --Ki 13:08, 29 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I thought it still did speed up everything even in hm? but even if it doesn't, then AoE miss chance still pwns--hard--in hm.--Reason.decrystallized 15:15, 29 May 2008 (EDT)

Rolo, you look like you would like the build I put up Build:N/Me_SS_Punisher it uses a slightly different play style than the SS Nuker, focusing more on punishment than direct damage. It's been working wonders for me for over a year now and can be used almost anywhere --Ace 00:33, 8 February 2008 (EST)

I have used it on my heroes and it work very much. --yyasurayy 21:38, 20 January 2008 (EST)
 * IP has a lengthy recharge and would take up one of your skill slots. SS + Arcane are, of course, needed, and Descrete/Defile provides armor ignoring damage nukes. Reckless Haste improves SS damage on meleers/auto attackers, and SoLS and SoS provide energy and damage. Also, you're not running this build solo, so you shouldn't worry about dying. --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  07:53, 18 February 2008 (EST)
 * IP's recharge is only two seconds longer than SS...  defile/desecrate have longer recharges...  IP instead of damage...uses life stealing, so it's both armor ignoring, and doesn't count as damage either which negates the effects of 'on damage' skills.  Reckless haste improves SS damage on things hexed with SS but does nothing on it's own...whereas IP can be used if SS is recharging for additional damage...or can be used on the same monster thus providing SS's damage on the attack and IP's life steal on the hit.  --Ace 15:31, 18 February 2008 (EST)
 * yeah i run ss /ip/price of failure, just tab to switch targets so the guy w/ ss doenst die fast/first, price of failure is quite a descent dmg if the foe is under blind or reckless and you can pile both ip and price of failure to quickly take down a particulary pesky melee/ranger 201.95.104.206 01:44, 28 February 2008 (EST)
 * IP+price of failure on the same target? Doesn't that counteract eachother? One only triggers on succesfull hits, the other one only on missed hits? So either you make your target miss and f*ck up IP or you leave it alone and price of failure has little use? --Ki 13:08, 29 May 2008 (EDT)

This build really works great. The only problem is interupts, but other than that, it's great.

Necrosis or Insidious Parasite?
I used to have use a variation on this build, untill I noticed the potential of Defile + Desecrate Enchantments XD. Now I want to use the current template, but I'm not sure about what optional to use. I'm currently doubting between necrosis or IP. I used to have necrosis on my previous built, I loved it because it was nice to use when only one target of a group is left. Also, I used it together with Parasictic bond (easy hex) and echoed it for use on hard targets and then...pure spammage :p. What I'm afraid of though is that without an easy hex, the skill won't shine as much as I like to. I never used IP so I don't know if that's cool, but I'd use it for the perpous described above: hex lone targets and get healed/negate damage in the process. Does anyone have an opinion on this that could help me? Thanx in advance --Ki 16:19, 29 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Insidious sucks at PvE. You want big damage, not a self heal. —ǘŋ  Ɛxɩsƫ  12:37, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * IP is not good over necrosis but it is not bad, it is not a self heal, it is a moderately high life steal which gets to deadly proportions with increased atack rate of pve mobs wilst raising surviveability of the caster. --Tiger   grrr!!  12:39, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

Hero vs Player
My hero has a hard time using Arcane Echo effectively, he ends up copying random spells and sucks really bad. For a hero... mark of pain, barbs, and other melee damage buffing skills are better. For a player, why not replace the two aoe damage spells(desecrate/defile) with Ether Nightmare and Cry of Pain. I would definitely fill the optional slot with a useful utility skill such as Pain Inverter or Summon Ruby Djinn, or for more aoe and aoe snare to keep your targets a little more together use Summon Ice Imp. In other situations you should certainly bring Enfeebling Blood as well. (Narziss 21:07, 18 August 2008 (EDT))
 * Try Archive:N/any Curses Support Hero. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 22:20, 18 August 2008 (EDT)

Wow
This is so old and outdated I can't believe it. [build prof=N/Me sou=12+1 cur=12+1+3][Arcane Echo][Spiteful Spirit][Insidious Parasite][Web of Disruption][Cry of Pain][Technobabble][Enfeebling Blood][Optional][/build] Interrupts, insane damage if you know how to use it, damage reduction and breif caster shutdown. It's only hm, technobabble on a monk and its dead before dazed ends. Thoughts?
 * "YMLaD!"
 * "Finish Him!"
 * Blood Ritual if you have bad monks
 * "BUH!"
 * GDW if with melee or rangers
 * PI
 * Weaken Armour


 * SS is e-heavy as it is. --Dandybot 10:33, 16 February 2009 (EST)
 * Necromancer + PvE + High set = win. - [[Image:Panic_sig7.gif‎]] 10:35, 16 February 2009 (EST)
 * Ohai Soul Reaping. If stuff isn't dying by the time you need energy then your doing it wrong. Andy 10:36, 16 February 2009 (EST)
 * Ohai Soul Reaping nerf. --Dandybot 10:37, 16 February 2009 (EST)
 * Ohai you still get loads of energy and theres only limited enemies SS does meaningful damage on anyway. If your trying to cast SS on every foe in a group then your also doing it wrong. Andy 10:38, 16 February 2009 (EST)
 * lrn2sign. Uh...no IP, Reckless Haste owns it in PvE with SS. The rest looks fine though. [[Image:Biggles.png]] <font face="Arial" color="navy">10:38, 16 February 2009
 * Reckless for what? In HM they already attack at maximum (or close to maximum) speed, and if your worried about being hit too much then youve serious problems with your healing, prot or ability to cast EB Andy 10:41, 16 February 2009 (EST)
 * With a High set, you have a pool of 70+ energy and the -2 regen doesnt matter because of Soul Reaping. So you can spam tons of 15e spells at once without any problems. - [[Image:Panic_sig7.gif‎]] 10:43, 16 February 2009 (EST)
 * I realize that.. --Dandybot 10:47, 16 February 2009 (EST)
 * Check the indent again. - [[Image:Panic_sig7.gif‎]] 10:48, 16 February 2009 (EST)
 * Thank you for failing to poke a hole in my build. Putting on build page. Andy 10:59, 16 February 2009 (EST)
 * It's pretty much what people run. I don't know what holes you were expecting? - [[Image:Panic_sig7.gif‎]] 11:16, 16 February 2009 (EST)
 * Well Biggles says IP is bad, and that RH is good. Made me chuckle. Andy 11:19, 16 February 2009 (EST)
 * He doesn't say IP is bad, he says you have Reckless to max SS dmg. --Dandybot 11:21, 16 February 2009 (EST)
 * He was talking about Normal Mode. - [[Image:Panic_sig7.gif‎]] 11:23, 16 February 2009 (EST)
 * Non-armour ignoring damage is nice in nm. Andy 11:24, 16 February 2009 (EST)
 * what? - [[Image:Panic_sig7.gif‎]] 11:30, 16 February 2009 (EST)
 * Read: "SS is inferior to other builds with non-armour ignoring damage in normal mode due to the high % of the said damage they will take and the fact things attack slower." Andy 11:33, 16 February 2009 (EST)
 * That's why I said he was talking about nm. Reckless brings the attack speed up and makes SS rape mobs like it does in HM. There's areas in NM where they're level 24+ and even casters have a decent armor rating. - [[Image:Panic_sig7.gif‎]] 11:43, 16 February 2009 (EST)
 * Why would anyone play in NM? :( Ironboot 12:55, 16 February 2009 (EST)
 * There are 103 reasons, now stfu. - [[Image:Miserysig.PNG|117px]] (talk)  12:59, 16 February 2009 (EST)

Angry Misery :o Andy 13:31, 16 February 2009 (EST)
 * Gonna change tomorrow unless anybody has any other issues. Andy 13:16, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I disagree on Technobabble for mainbar, Dazed is countersynergy with SS, so are interrupts in general.. Most PvE skills are anyways optionals CoP works tho, but get some other mes hex. -- -Ch  ao  s-   13:29, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Wtf are you doing using SS on casters? Personally a think web is a perfect hex, as it has a fast cast time, similar recharge time and unlike most hexes that are so easy to use, actually does something useful by interrupting on cast. Andy 14:29, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Melee's ofc, but meh. But the bar just looks so damn exotic. -- -Ch  ao  s-   14:42, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Dazing melee is awesome, they cast so much. SS melee, daze & interrupt monks/eles/necs/rits. Andy 15:11, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Osht, who rezzed Einstein? -- -Ch  ao  s-   15:14, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Seeing as you seemed to be planning on casting ss on casters, gj they did. Andy 15:33, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, because you never see any caster foes without melee foes, or meleeing casters. -- -Ch  ao  s-   15:35, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
 * It's pretty rare, but happens. Thats why you SS the ones that don't heal or do high damage, and interrupt the ones that heal or do high damage. Andy 15:38, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not even rare, but yeh. Just mainbar whatever, as I did wrong to put Reckless in there. -- -Ch  ao  s-   16:08, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The build posted above is superior for hard mode, the actual build posted here is awkwardly sitting on the fence between HM and NM. Why does someone feel the need to put res in every pve build? Athrun Feya 12:11, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Because this is unofficially a PvP oriented site and PvP's love their resses. Fix the bar, I haven't SS'd in a while so I don't remember what works best. -- -Ch  ao  s-   12:21, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Rrrre-re-re-revert war

 * I also agree that the above build is stronger than the previous version (however, not necessarily the best). Sunspear rebirth sig is a stupid waste of a PvE slot.  It's basically marginally stronger than res sig.  Rez isn't actually even needed.
 * Also,There are a ton of decent PvE skill options, and it doesn't necessarily need to be CoP. I also never run necrosis.  It's pretty counter productive, making your hexes last a shorter time.  If I needed single target damage, barbs alone provides more.  Here's is what I suggest main bar should be:

[build prof=N/Any Curses=12+1+1 Soul=12+1][Spiteful Spirit][Barbs][Mark of Pain][mindbender][optional][optional][optional][optional][/build] The 4 optional slots are really just that. There are just too many awesome options to warrant main-bar anything. 2 should be PvE only skills and the other 2 can be enfeebling blood, shadow of fear, GoLE, SoLS, res, rip enchantment, arcane echo etc. --Zaney 19:22, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Necrosis doesn't make your hexes last shorter, but that seems like a decent mainbar :3 -- -Ch  ao  s-   19:58, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

[build prof=N/Any Curses=12+1+1 Soul=12+1][Spiteful Spirit][Reckless Haste][Parasitic bond][Necrosis][Signet of Lost Souls][optional][optional][Resurrection Signet][/build] imo. RH is a must with SS. It's more usefull in NM (as it actually increass the AS), but in HM you get a AoE hex, as well as making the meele miss 50% of the time, reducing your damage intake. PB is a good cover hex on your main target (the one with SS on). Necrosis is a cheap, quick recharging, short cast skill with decent damage (given that the target's will be hexed means you shouldn't have trouble using it). SolS is for E-mangment as well as a bit of a health boost if neccesary. And Rez sig...just because. Optionals can be pretty much anything. (you could switch Rez for Sunspear rez as well). :/ <font color="#4F94CD"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#9400D3">Sysop   20:07, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Barbs/MoP mainbar is a definite must-have. RH is more expensive and just aswell replacable by Enfeebling Blood for the same effect. With Mindbender you can also cover with Barbs before monsters react. But Necrosis owns. -- -Ch  ao  s-   20:10, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

TBH, probably best of both worlds. Optional can be Cry of Pain with a Mesmer Hex on another player, other PvE skills, Barbs, etc. --☭Guild *talk* 20:16, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

RH only works in NM, but there it should be used. Split the mainbar into HM/NM? -- -Ch  ao  s-   20:19, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Reckless would work fine in HM I'd think, since the defense is pretty good. I really think we should leave the core bar at SS, A-Echo, Mark of Pain, and SoLS, the rest Optionals. --☭Guild *talk* 20:25, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Enfeebling does what Reckless does but for 1 energy and 8s recharge =( -- -Ch  ao  s-   20:30, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * i fail to see how MoP and barbs "owns". They're both contingent on you having someone deal Physical damage, and attacking the person you hexed. They're signal target, so the monks no who to remove hex etc. MoP is also 20 secs recharge, granted it's 30 sec duration, but it's singal target where as RH is AoE as i mentioned, meaning the monks have to work on more than one target. RH works in both modes, as i said before, it works best in NM (because you get more for your money, so to speak), but in HM, it's primary use is the 50% miss rate, and the fact it's an AoE hex. Personally I'd also take PB, because it's quick cast time, short recharge, and low cost, makes it the perfect cover hex on your main target (the one with SS).
 * I'd say absolute core is SS, Necrosis, SoLS and Rez. Enfeebling blood isn't a bad choice either, weakness is always nice (ad provides another means for using Necrosis).
 * and no chaos, enfeebling is nothing like what RH does. Enfeebling causes weakness, that's 1 rank less in all of your attributes, in other words about 3 less damage per swing from a warrior. RH means they miss 50% of th time. That means you only get hit half the time =p. <font color="#4F94CD"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#9400D3">Sysop   20:40, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Weakness: "Concise description: You deal 66% less damage with attacks and your attributes are reduced by 1." I'm attracted by the 66% less damage. MoP is also AoE, and for the most you're always going to have physicals or a MM in your team. Mark of Pain + minions is killing foes before aggro breaks, unless they're lucky. Barbs also takes down shitter foes, for the same reason as MoP. -- -Ch  ao  s-   20:44, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * You may or may not be referring to this. &mdash; Rapta (talk|contribs) 20:47, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Crap. Merge? :> I like getting rid of extra builds -- -Ch  ao  s-   20:54, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Eh, I don't see any real reason to merge the two. Seems more like a "See Also" thing to me. &mdash; Rapta (talk|contribs) 20:57, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The support one is more for general pve, this is more for organized--Relyk 21:00, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Okie, good points. So does the mainbar need any change and what are those changes? -- -Ch  ao  s-   21:03, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * First of all, sunspear rez sig needs to be thrown into an incinerator. Barbs/MoP should be mainbar - what "organized" team does not have physicals/minions except for cryway?  And it's not like you'd be running this in cryway, anyway.  Reckless haste is wasted in HM and expensive, AoE hex just isn't needed in most places -> optional.  PvE skills should be optional, since there are lots of very good options.  That's my opinion, anyway :3--Zaney 04:11, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Pretty much, but most necros tend to bring Necrosis :> -- -Ch  ao  s-   13:47, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Why does this build keep getting changed from something terrible, to something less bad, then back to something terrible. This is what I suggest, making a clear defintion between HM and NM is vital, half the skillbar is different. I'm imagining using this build with a full H/H group to do missions, vanq, etc.. - HM build Note: Web/CoP give a nice combo of interrupts, lifesteal (IP) is often useful in HM, - NM build
 * blank for one of the following; mindbender, "finish him!", weaken armor, technobabble, necrosis, blood ritual
 * blank for one of the following; mindbender, "finish him!", barbs, blood ritual, necrosis, "finish him!", defile/desecrate enchants for areas with high numbers of enchantsAthrun Feya 23:01, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd prefer not to get hit on HM, so personally I always run Reckless Haste for HM. Not only does it deal more damage with SS, opponents also land less hits ánd its AoE. 62.194.24.118 23:44, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Reckless haste is by no means necessary. It doesn't actually make you do more damage since foes are maxed out on attack speed anyway.  In fact, it makes you do less damage because of the opportunity cost of cast time.  AoE hexes are rarely needed.  It's also only useful in big melee mobs, which makes it less general.  --Zaney 02:11, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
 * 50% (I think it was?) damage decrease is very useful, coupled with weakness and an imbagon, you take almost no damage. PVX-Zyke 02:16, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
 * It's only truly useful on large melee mobs, which are exceedingly rare and usually not a problem (Berserker's anyone?)... it's also 15 energy... I'd rather use that energy AND TIME to cast more blow-upy skills like barbs/MoP or another SS or some other random PvE skill such as technobabble, which would have a much larger impact on the outcome of the battle.  If you had an imbagon, as you say, there's ZERO reason to take reckless haste.
 * Most often just aegis is enough to deal with the melee. It has no effect on AoE mobs and limited effect in balanced mobs.  It's just not general enough to be mainbar.  --Zaney 02:54, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
 * For HM, enfeebling blood is there to counter physicals, doesn't even matter if they hit or not. If something is particularly strong, throw up insidious too, then said enemy will die quicker than reckless+SS. What techonobabble offers in the HM build is more caster hate (personally, i always take in when vanqing, etc) as that's what you'll take most damage from - not melee. Athrun Feya 16:23, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Part of the PvE meta
I doubt this very much. Spiteful Spirit might be part of the PvE meta, but past that the bar will vary hugely. As far as I know it's not part of any "meta" team like Cryway or Sabway and it's not used in any farming runs, it's just a general build. -  <font color="#0d0">Misery <font color="#0e0">Says <font color="#0f0">Moo   08:08, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Farming runs aren't even 50% of PvE, most good necros outside of that use either this or the other SS build. Especially in human teams.. -- -Ch  ao  s-   09:14, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
 * 55/SS is still good--Relyk 15:52, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Sabway uses SS? -- Dr ah  [[Image:Drah-Sig1.jpg‎|19px]] 20:19, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it uses the skill Spiteful Spirit, but it doesn't use this build. <font color="Black">Rickyvantof 20:34, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Seriously, I'm no pr0 pver, but the last 4 skills looks shit to me. First 4 are fine. [[Image:Misery_Cow.png|19x19px]] <font color="#00dd00">Misery <font color="#00ee00">Says <font color="#00ff00">Moo   20:36, 28 February 2009 (UTC)


 * SoLS is nice for this bar if you're not running a 70e Necro, but the Equipment section suggests 70e, so, no. SSRebirth is decent (beats Res Sig any day, and you can't go Mo). Reckless is shit. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  20:42, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Reckless is for NM. Variant =/ -- -Ch  ao  s-   20:42, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * seriously, how do people not see the whole "50% miss chance" part of RH :/ <font color="#4F94CD"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#9400D3">Sysop   21:17, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * BECAUSE IT DOESN'T MATTER ;o [[Image:Misery_Cow.png|19x19px]] <font color="#00dd00">Misery <font color="#00ee00">Says <font color="#00ff00">Moo   21:20, 28 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Enfeebling Blood makes any physical lolpathetic anyways. Besides, if you really want Melee hate, get Mark of Fear/Meekness. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  21:50, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I think shadow of fear should be mainbar, tbh. It's ridiculously spammable and shuts down better than RH. Weakness+SoF=awesome. Just so we're all aware, I'm retarded. [[Image:KJ needed a new sig....sig.png]] <font face="Arial" color="gray">18:44, 3 March 2009
 * I was wondering when I first read it. People miss it Phen, because a tank with 120 vs physical armour, SY, prots, insane dmg that makes foes die in seconds and healing all say hai to melee enemies. Andy 19:03, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I think this build looked best....
Like this:

"FH!" is probably best left as an optional, especially considering many people will want to bring a rez or some other pve skill besides "FH!" <font face="Arial" color="gray">00:05, 6 March 2009
 * and why IP? I don't get that. Self heal? Is that what you're going for? IP just doesn't make sense to me in pve. [[Image:KJ needed a new sig....sig.png]] <font face="Arial" color="gray">00:07, 6 March 2009
 * Pretty good damage and pressure relief if one is attacking you. I agree with FH being optional, in some areas other things may be more suitable, mainly depending on the builds of others in your team. Andy 22:39, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Why wouldn't you just use reckless haste? So instead of having to worry about them hitting you, you just make them miss so you don't have to heal yourself. <font color="Black">Drah <font color="DarkRed">Mc <font color="Black">Ninja  21:18, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * On that note...why isn't Reckless haste on the bar even? Darklinkq 20:17, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * HM maxes out attack speed.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 20:22, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * That's not the point. It causes half of the enemy's attacks to miss. That sort of utility is just too useful to pass up so lightly. Xenomortis 13:30, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Things deal pretty minimum damage if you use Enfeebling Blood right Athrun Feya 13:34, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Not quite. Weakness doesn't really affect the +damage from skills (only so much as it lowers attributes by one). Don't get me wrong, Enfeebling Blood is great, as AI physicals spend a lot of their time autoattacking (which does hurt). But the effect of a 12 second Aegis? That's pretty damn useful. The fact Reckless isn't even down as a variant is disgraceful (especially when stuff like Suffering is).Xenomortis 22:33, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * HM enemies still do significant melee damage without using skills - bigger levels, better armor penetration, higher chance of a crit, etc. Looking at the scaling of skills, for example hundred blades or cleave, theres only about a 10 damage difference between being specced at 12 or 21, so the -1atts isnt the best part of weakness, its still the 66% damage reduction from normal attacks.  <font color="SeaGreen">athrunfeya [[Image:User_Athrun_Feya_sig_image.jpg]] <font color="SeaGreen">speaks  13:19, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure where you were going with that. I said that Enfeebling blood is great - it's great for the reasons you mentioned. The -1 to atts is something so small as to be hardly worth mentioning - my comment regarding it was in brackets for a reason. Xenomortis 19:46, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Just showing what i said before your comment, that things still deal pretty minimum damage. Anyway, this build is a mess and countless edits have caused things like RH to be missed out, and things like suffering to still be there from once upon a time. Maybe look at the cleapup effort below  <font color="SeaGreen">athrunfeya [[Image:User_Athrun_Feya_sig_image.jpg]] <font color="SeaGreen">speaks  11:19, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

CoP
is it really needed in a team without any other cry? Illoyon 17:22, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * CoP is still strong -- -Ch  ao  s-   17:24, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not saying no to extra aoe damage and interrupts. Andy 21:14, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

SS Nuker Clean-Up
Opinions? It's half finished but you get the idea. Everyone has such different opinions on what should be mainbarred and theres like 1001 variant skills to take.  <font color="SeaGreen">athrunfeya  <font color="SeaGreen">speaks  17:42, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Bump  <font color="SeaGreen">athrunfeya [[Image:User_Athrun_Feya_sig_image.jpg]] <font color="SeaGreen">speaks  17:38, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * we already have a general hero build, this is for good players, a general build is pretty pointless--Relyk 18:26, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah but if you scroll up a lot of different people claim a lot of different things are better. Don't get me wrong, i'm happy with the current build - it's pretty close to the one i use. But I do think its time to sort this page out, since theres a lot of bad old variables theres and a lot of better ones missing, the 'clean up' page was a result of doing so, I don't see why a general human player SS build is a bad thing.  <font color="SeaGreen">athrunfeya [[Image:User_Athrun_Feya_sig_image.jpg]] <font color="SeaGreen">speaks  18:38, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Post update bump  <font color="SeaGreen">athrunfeya  <font color="SeaGreen">speaks  15:39, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

i dont understand why ..
Why does it say 12+1+3 for curses on the mainbar ? --Lusciious 22:41, January 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Pve. <font color="Deepred"> «No <font color="Black"> vii« 22:44, January 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * 12 (character attribute) + 1 (curses headpiece) + 3 (superior curses rune) - <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Athrun <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Feya - 22:52, January 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * no no. what i mean is that why is it 16 and not 14 ? most builds i see have their main attribute at maximum 14 unless it's a farming build . what makes 16 better than 14 ? other than you being able to do a little more damage ? o.o--Lusciious 09:20, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Most human spell casters are the same in pve (apart from monk) (eg, here, here and here) - <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Athrun <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Feya - 09:27, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * seriously ? i didn't know it was different . probably because i was stuck on pvp for such a long time . lol . anyway, thanks :)--Lusciious 09:38, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

vandalism
some anonymous ip replaced optional slots with some random skills...changed it back to what it should look like.Illoyon 11:56, August 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * PvX:AGF <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  12:14, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

Any ideas?
Bold text I was wondering, has anyone got a good idea of which 40/40 curses set to use?
 * Just find a cheap one. <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">22:04, 23 August 2010  (UTC)

Hard Mode and Normal Mode wrong?
Is this right like it is now? Don't we have to change normal and hard mode? GigaRaichu 08:58, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

okay, sorry. I get it now GigaRaichu 08:58, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Why is there a HM and NM version when the only difference is RH? It should be used in both cases for AoE hex covering and strong blocking abilities. That and two main bars look ugly. Minion  01:31, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
 * It can be an optional in HM for extra defense and cover hex, but in NM it is primarily used for the IAS, which doesn't stack with the IAS of HM foes. Enfeeble blood could be a NM option too.  Doesn't really look ugly imo though, it makes this distinction clear, if we just put a little note at the bottom saying use RH in nm most ppl wouldn't even see it. IMO keep the bars as is and add RH and EB to optionals also. Smity Smitington 01:34, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Instead of two identical bars, why not settle for a note just above optionals stating "RH is optimal for Normal Mode to increase foes' IAS"etc.etc.? Much neater. I want a vote on who thinks it doesn't look ugly with two bars... Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 01:47, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
 * You also get better copy paste action with the two bars. Smity Smitington 01:53, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Bullshit; it's a half empty template. Arcane Echo sucks and so does Necrosis, in most situations. I'm removing them from the main barS, and I want someone to tell me why not instead of simply reverting.  Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 01:59, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Because then the only things on the mainbars will be SolS and SS. -- Jai . -  02:10, September 15 2011 (UTC)
 * So? Do that, then. RH is good for both modes, though. You need a cover hex or SS will be strip and you lose ALL your domges.  Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 03:05, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

fixed-- Relyk 04:23, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Looks nicer but, Arcane Echo? Do you really rate it?That's 30e more for echoing and SS, and the second cast of SS will never be as useful, see how fast mobs die.  Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 12:56, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Archive?
because apparently this is now Trash. <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  19:20, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Best thing Shadow   Umbra scriptor Disputatio  19:50, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I don't understand why in the world people must go to trash older builds. I'm loving the 2011/2012 votes on this, which was first put on the wikispace in 2006. This needs a votewipe, reverted back to the category it was once in, and then archived. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 14:10, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Well maybe because I haz been in this wiki for 6 months and I couldnt vote before. <font color="DarkGoldenRod" size="2px">Silen†  14:23, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
 * And your proverbial/literal vote (I don't even remember seeing who voted atm) is based off of experience now, where the meta has tremendously shifted rather than when it was most viable. That's the problem. Because the build is no longer viable, people have the audacity to give it a more current vote which is clearly going to be a trash vote. But, because it is no longer viable means that it shouldn't be trashed, it means it should be archived. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 14:32, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Fuck, I just saw "haz", gg2me. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 14:33, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
 * And in fact I put the archive tag too. P.S: Yes, I put haz on purpose. <font color="DarkGoldenRod" size="2px">Silen†  14:50, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Archived and vote wiped, no way something like this can go in the trash. <font color="Black">Frostels 14:55, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
 * surprises me really. I mean I know there are better builds but SS is still a viable elite (though the cost means AE is too much as you drop you hit 0 energy with the AE-> SS-> SS(AE) chain), but ah well, memories <3. <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  08:53, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I view the disuse in-line with the decrease in popularity on heroes. The replacement of the SS necro from sabway with illusion mesmer, lack of need for high spec curses barring mark of pain, and meta change to spiking power like with FoC or PoD. There are still quite a few niche uses for it and you see them pop up, SS on a healer when energy is manageable, killing shiro, deep and urgoz as enemies attack very fast and ball, also usage in WoC content when scrubs still want necro healers. The current meta usage for SS pertains solely to deep spiteful spike, which is the updated version. Players will choose to use it for the same areas as for heroes because of such. It's been tucked into a niche ever since AP nuker was introduced, where discordway got rid of the idea you needed a dedicated spec in curses to use enfeebling blood and other curses. I stopped using SS after using ap caller and iv bomber. SS would come back if the curses line had more than 3 useful skills. There's my brooding paragraph.-- Relyk 11:17, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
 * You could argue that SS is still useful in high end pve. It's being used still in 2 man Deep and 5 man DoA SC, not this build however. [[Image:They.jpg|36px|link=User:They]] 13:27, 29 June 2012 (UTC)