User talk:Shireen/Build:Mo/Me RA Vital Bonder

General Discussion
I know, people are going to look at this and go WTF? But it works, suprisingly well in RA and is one of my Glad point farmers. It adresses 'glass cannon' builds that monks typically have problems keeping alive in RA. The 200 point health boost gives you elbow room against over extenders, and ZB going off as early as it does (and as cheap) makes it even more powerfull. With it's damage redux, when rotated propperly, will help you keep your entire party up, and you even can afford to cast through a backfire or two if needed. The high health also does a lot to mitigate Deep wound and heavy degen builds. Shireen 20:16, 14 May 2007 (CEST)
 * I'm usually kinda meh on RA builds. This looks somewhat like that Hero Battle hero build for Dunkoro, although that one uses SoR. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 06:09, 21 May 2007 (CEST)

This looks like even more of a glass cannon; if your blessed sig is d-shotted or diverted, there goes half your build, or all your energy regen. BTW, no hex removal is very risky. Tycn 08:57, 21 May 2007 (CEST)

Thats why you watch for diversion and sac either vital blessing, Balthazars aura or Matra of Inscriptions to it. You would be surprised how much the HIGH hit points helps in surviving hex stacks and the like. Shireen 20:16, 21 May 2007 (CEST)


 * No life bond? Wah... -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 22:38, 21 May 2007 (CEST)
 * Balth's spirit but no life bond. That's asking for trouble. --8765 22:50, 21 May 2007 (CEST)

Life bond cannot be placed on yourself, leaving your very vulnerable, I realize this is different. Shireen 23:44, 21 May 2007 (CEST)
 * I'd suggest trying it with Essence Bond, since you can slap that on someone else if you need to and still get energy for yourself. It's not like you need the adrenaline :P. Yes, EB is restricted to phys/ele dmg, but anyone whaling on you up close will be dealing thet anyway. Egon 17:35, 28 May 2007 (CEST)

The idea with balth spirit is that in RA, the monk usually gets gang banged by the melee classes, Life bond + Balth spirit in RA is almost redundant, cuz they all go after the monk anyway 80% of the time. Even if only 1 melee attacker goes after you and the rest splits on the team, that one impack + your damage redux = nearly free energy. Plus if the mesmer who shut your sig down starts to wand you... Think of it from an RA perspective and player behavior. I realize it's gonna be a little hard to wrap your mind around it, but it's geared towards that area specifically. Shireen 23:41, 21 May 2007 (CEST)

You get actual damage reduction from using Life Bond, and better energy management, because people in RA are not smart enough to all target on the monk. Needs alot more veil. Swiftslash \\  09:15, 22 May 2007 (CEST)

Needs better utilites, Life Bonders are superior. Readem (talk *pvxcontribs ) 04:43, 24 May 2007 (CEST)

For RA, I will have to disagree. This build is basic and very powerfull. I doubt you can appreciate it without actually trying it. It is outside the normal think box. melee, Spikers, Degen and most hexes are all countered by the heavy healing. You have additional reaction time to ensure recovery of your team mates, and most 'chain' oriented people are aimed at approximately 350-490 damage, giving your team additional time to strike back. My only proof for all this, of course, is my word that I regularly earn glad points with it. I've also supported many teams that shouldn't have been winning battles (as thier builds/abilites as a team sucked) into the high 6's and 7's. With the high hit points you personally can afford to wait out a mesmer trying to shut you down before using ZB (200+ heal) and Dismiss (100+ heal) to quickly bring yourself back up. It's wierd, but it is geared towards the numbers and thinking the majority of people use when playing in RA. Bonding is GREAT in TA, where you know your team, but it lacks a lot of self survivability. Shireen 05:16, 24 May 2007 (CEST)

Let me see if I can give a more detailed insite into the theory behind this build, as many of the regulars, who deal very excusivly in theory for their basis of opinion.
 * Most builds in RA are aimed at dealing sustained, mid to low grade pressure, or short high end solo spikes targeting 350-480 points of damage in roughly 20 seconds (after which they must rest, reset and re-try).
 * At 700+/- hit points for the whole team it effectively puts everyone at > the damage mechanism.
 * ZB can now be used, for energy regen (total cost of 3) and 200+ point heal (every 4 seconds) when your ally is at 350+/- hit points instead of 240 +/- hit points. Stronger healing at higher levels of health mean follow up spikes to pressure is increasingly difficult. (effectively giving strong spike and degen resistance).
 * The conditional heal of Dismiss conditions is now a given constant giving you a 100 point heal available every 3 seconds that will also remove conditions.
 * The use of SoA and shielding hands allows for either complete damage reduction for one target, or mid level damage reduction for two seperate targets, including yourself.  These severly lessen the impact of favorite hexes such as empathy, recless haste,  AoE, Spoil victor.  Slow incomming pressure damage and every point that you heal becomes even more difficult to take away.
 * If blessed signet is used at every available opportunity, you have the equivelent of 2 extra pips of energy regen (2/3rds of an energy point every second). When fights get started and you have someone deciding to make YOU their favorite target, you do not run out of energy, and are able to tank Assasins, warriors, most rangers with the use of SoA, which still allows for shielding hands to be used on another friendly if needed.
 * In the event of diversion you have 3 'throw away' skills to quickly remove it. Mantra of Inscriptions lasts for 72 seconds, at a 20 second recharge, which is now 40 seconds under diversion, wow, big loss there.  Vital Blessing and Balthazar's aura, once up, can be saced to diversion as well with no loss in ability or aptitude.
 * If your signet is disabled, and balthazars aura is up, get the attention of a 'friendly' melee type and tank em to maintain your energy.
 * In the event of enchant strippers who prep people for, or during a spike, Vital blessing now acts as a 200 point heal.
 * Deep wound merely puts your allies at original heal levels, and can be removed through dismiss.
 * You can afford to cast through the occasional backfire, or if that is ill-advised, your team has enough buffer to allow for you to wait it out, and pull off your strong healing for recovery.
 * With a rune of recovery dazed rarely lasts as long as the recharge time of the skill that caused it. With your higher hit points you can survive a bit, wait it out, then pull your strong healing to recover from the situation.
 * The major problem with this build are KD warriors, but all monks have that problem.

- Think outside the box for a second and try to put this into perspective with RA in mind. If you still don't see it, strap it on and give it a good try, you might be surprised when you survive your first tri-assassin assult and heal the derv caught in the SF spike. Shireen 06:12, 24 May 2007 (CEST)
 * To argue your cases:
 * Most monks should have around 600 health or he's a dead monk.
 * 200 easily removable health is good against spikes, but not continual pressure, especially without hex removal. A Reaper's Mark can easily upkeep two players at 8 degen, and that leaves another two who can pressure the heck out of you.
 * Waiting for your teammate to get to the easily spikable part of the health bar isn't very smart. In case you haven't realized, a deep wound will take around 1/3 of that little bar away.
 * Spammable+not much e-management=dead.
 * That only helps when you know the target. If it's someone else, he'll get spiked down before you prot him. If it's you... then that's the only way it really is especially helpful.
 * 2 second cast. 'nuff said.
 * Perfect for some of the Drain Enchantment e-management for the mesmers out there ;)
 * Err... No your current health is reduced by 200 when Vital is stripped.
 * Which costs you 5 energy, and if you're facing someone who has at least know how to use the most basics of a build, there will be a cover condition.
 * Have you ever noticed most of the dazers are assassins and will get on you like dogs with a mega combo or something they have, and usually, with one other person, you'll die.
 * Protective Spirit ;)
 * I will try this sometimes, and I'll see that it is not very good at all. Tri-assassin spikes are especially rare, and easily countered with prot spirit for they rarely spike perfectly simultaneously. SF cannot spike. In fact, without 2 eles in SF, even Lightning Surge spikes are better. And dervs rarely get caught in spikes anyways, unless he's in an all warrior team or is the only one left. Again I'll try this, but I doubt it will be very good at all. Mister abc 00:08, 29 May 2007 (CEST)

How is having 700 +/- 50 hitpoints per person not good against pressure? You have both SoA and Shielding hands to counter pressure. In RA you end up healing through most Hexes anyway if you have a true hex stacker and your not running divert. Zb is energy management, The signet IS energy management. Read further down for the math, this build has superior energy gain, and works much like a power healing monk. And you need to learn the effects of conditions. Deep wound = 20% health, (1/5) not 33.3% (1/3). And sure you've got the enchant strippers, re-apply. And you say 2 seconds is too slow? Then I never want to see you using a signent of divotion build, or remove hexes in any build you vet. Shireen 00:52, 29 May 2007 (CEST)

Sub out Vital Blessing for Life Bond imo. The extra 200hp per char is nice, but being able to reduce ~25 damage per hit on each char is better, and will quickly add up to more than 200 damage. Life Bond also ties into your e-mgmt; LB your team mates, BS yourself = energy gain everytime someone on your team takes damage. Drop either SoA or SH if you bring LB, you can just put either one on yourself and consistently take zero damage. Doing that would allow you to bring some form of hex removal. DF/Insp Attributes should be switch around; you lose 8 seconds and 4% of MoI, but gain extra energy with blessed and make all your spells more energy efficient but healing for more with DF. - Krowman    06:21, 24 May 2007 (CEST)

- Why have DF any higher than that? You only gain 3 energy per maintained enchantment, up to the maximum set, and this build only maintains 5 (energy return of 15). Shireen 08:18, 24 May 2007 (CEST)

But that would be a completely different build, and a stardand life bonder adapted for RA use (Im sure we have that build somewhere, Ill dig it up if I can find it). The main problem in my usage of either in RA is that Life bond builds really sucks in self survival, and RA is to small to hide way in the back. Traditional bonders also have a harder time against heavier degen stacks and extreme hex stacks that one monk alone can't remove. Shireen 06:26, 24 May 2007 (CEST)
 * Do you plan on hiding in the back with this build? Under that logic, either build would be unable to hide from foes, because of the terrain. Degen stacks are not particularly threatening, they are amongst the slowest ways to die in GW. This build does little to counter degen stacks; you may have higher max health, but you have absolutley no hex removal. Bringing LB would. like I said, assist in e-mgmt, something that this build is very weak in. You have no dmg redirecting to you to trigger BS and fuel your energy pool. Your only options for energy gain are placing BS on everyone (so inefficient), or Blessed sig. If that get's interrupted, or worse, D-shotted, you're hooped. By working to counter degen stacks, you have made your build even more vulnerable to energy problems, and this should take a higher priority over degen. - [[Image:Kowal.jpg|15px]] Krowman   06:38, 24 May 2007 (CEST)
 * This build is not required to stay in the back. If you are tanking 3 of the 4 people with the use of SoA, Shielding hands and your heals spells, you are providing damage prevention to the other members of your team.  E-Management is not an issue, as in RA you allways have that one guy going after the monk, and even if you are not being harassed, the build has been optimized for it's five maintained enchantments so that blessed signet gives it energy regeneration above the normal 4 pips.


 * 4 pips = 1 - 1/3 energy per second.
 * 5 enchants = -1/3 energy per second.
 * Blessed signant turn around is 8 seconds for energy gain + usage with mantra, for 15 energy
 * 8 seconds at 1 1/3 = 10 2/3 energy
 * 8 seconds at - 1/3 energy is -2 2/3
 * 15 - 2 2/3 = 12 1/3 energy over 8 seconds
 * Signet gain compared to normal gain is 1 2/3 points of energy over 8 seconds. which is the equivelent of roughly having an extra 1.3 pips of energy gain.
 * Balthazars Aura provides the additional 'extra' energy management every build needs. Even with only 1 person attacking you could potentially replace the need for using blessed signant all together.  Combined with the cheap costs of all your skills.
 * As for hex removal, what would you sugest we trade it out for? I would almost say go for Blessed Light, as that serves as both hex removal and condition removal (A bit more expensive) which would allow for some additional healing spell to be added to make up for the loss of raw heal power (but increasing operating costs, possible throwing off the sweet spot in e-management I worked out for this build). Shireen 07:02, 24 May 2007 (CEST)
 * I think you mean Balthazar's Spirit? It is useful because, if you LB your 3 teammates, you gain 1 energy everytime you, or any one of them, takes damage. For hex removal, I don't think it would fit into the current build very well. I would just have to repeat my above modifications. You could try B-Light bonding, but I would imagine that would only make your energy issue worse. - [[Image:Kowal.jpg|15px]] Krowman   07:18, 24 May 2007 (CEST)


 * Yeah, just tried a BL variant, tried an RC variant. Either (and the multiple skills trying to compensate for the switch) I found myself begging for healing and hurting for energy. ZB, with it's super high healing return, fast recharge, and 3 energy cost seems to be what keeps this build working, me spamming, and the team alive. Puts the build in perspective, it just heals through mondo damage and has prevention against spam pressure. I tried switching out shielding hands for viel, but found myself not bothing with using that to nerf hex stacks, leaving it mostly unused on my bar except when I had a mesmer or necro in bound, and then it went un used again if they wern't bringing anti-caster hexes. The current still works fine, any other ideas on variants? Aside from doing an attribute split which would either further dimish the health gain from vital, or hurt the currently balanced e-management, but perhaps with runes... Hrm... on a side note: I understand the concept of the Life bond very well as thats what got me wondering about what I could do with vital. Shireen 07:56, 24 May 2007 (CEST)
 * I get the idea of this build, and I'll try it later. Life Bond's mostly there on bonders to gain energy, rather than prot. You've gone for increased HP for your protection (which works vs everything not just attacks), and the knowledge that Monks are "bullet-magnets" in RA for your Energy. Everyone goes for the Monk, so why not make the Monk a tank? Interesting thinking there. -Egon 17:35, 28 May 2007 (CEST)

Greetings, this is my first contribution to PVX. I followed this thread out and actually tried the build. Feedback is that with another monk in RA (i.e. 2 monks), the increased health is near invicible. The only problem comes from energy deprivation. Wading into the fight to tank defies conventional monking logic, but sometimes its what you need here. Also going without hex removal is something the WHOLE team has got to get use to. Still getting used to the build, but overall, the increased health thingy actually works. I died only when I came encountered a derv which was removing all my enchantments. That wasnt nice. Will play with it somemore and add more comments/improvements if I can later.Angel138 12:19, 30 May 2007 (CEST)

Standard Life Bond builds are allready vetted by the comunity
Everyone says switch to life bond, because it is what they know works. But those builds allready exist.

- To follow the above advice would put this build into the realm of PvX:Well and PvX:Delete. Can we get some constructive critisism on how to improve THIS build as opposed to turning it into one of the above builds?
 * Archive:Mo/any RC Bonder (for RA)
 * (for RA)
 * Archive:Mo/Me Blessed Light Bond Monk

Shireen 06:33, 24 May 2007 (CEST)
 * Different =/= good. People use Life Bond and not Vital Blessing because it is a better and more useful skill. - [[Image:Kowal.jpg|15px]] Krowman   06:38, 24 May 2007 (CEST)

I have a feeling Im going to be slapping my OSB=UF user box at the top of this discussin page after a while. I don't think anyone is brave enough to try it. But I appreciate you guys putting up with me. Pure damage redux doesn't give a buffer against everything (life steal for one, degen for another) that a boost in health does offer. Shireen 06:40, 24 May 2007 (CEST)
 * That's absolutely correct. Generally the best way to counter life steal is outhealing it, and the best way to counter degen is to remove what is causing it. You can use a max health boost to deal with these, but there are better ways to deal. - [[Image:Kowal.jpg|15px]] Krowman   06:44, 24 May 2007 (CEST)
 * You know Krowman, I think I will now create a mending bonder *laughs with malicious intention* Readem (talk *pvxcontribs ) 07:25, 24 May 2007 (CEST)
 * Do it, and I'll send you back to Russia in a banana crate. - [[Image:Kowal.jpg|15px]] Krowman   07:52, 24 May 2007 (CEST)
 * Fun. Readem (talk *pvxcontribs ) 03:11, 30 May 2007 (CEST)

'I don't think anyone is brave enough to try it.' Well, *cue WTFWTFWTF* I tried it for about an hour. Vital is very useful, I'll agree -- But the energy is IMPOSSIBLE to manage, people do NOT beat on the monk enough to warrant Balthazar's Spirit, most the time i found myself not using it. BA Rangers and such run aroung RA way too much to rely entirely on blessed sig -- I got it d-shotted on about 3/5ths of matchs, meaning I couldn't do a thing except cancel the Vitals to get some energy to deal with general monking. I have to agree, Life Bond is far superior -- I'm not suggesting you put them in, but I'd run them over this most days for the energy. Kudos for trying a Maintainer without LB though. Rawrawr Dinosaur 23:23, 2 June 2007 (CEST)

Why not use both? A infamous build within my alliance is the "Fook bonder" which uses Life Bond and Vital Boon, with usually Boon Signet as the elite. You take superior DF and Prot runes, and Vial Boon yourself. Then you bond a lot of teammates, and apply/remove Vital Boon as needed. It's very effective, but spent too long being knocked by people who never tried it on GWiki for me to repost it here.Egon 05:35, 19 June 2007 (EDT)

Suggestion
Mo/Rt with Vital Weapon? Recasting sucks, but hey.
 * Also not too keen on a build that lets you heal only once every 5 seconds. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 04:06, 26 June 2007 (EDT)

Thats 5.5 seconds with the after cast delay factored in... But Your running absurd health, damage reduction, and a mega heal. You do have a secondary healer (through the use of dismiss conditions) that heals for about half the amount of ZB. It's a funky monk style. I will admit that. It takes a lot of getting used to and could be difficult to learn. I can use it just fine, but this fits my playstyle. Might not be for everyone. Shireen sysop  05:15, 26 June 2007 (EDT)

She is sitting right at the threashhold of being sent to the graveyard. She works, and for RA it really does work well once you get used it. But I understand. It's not for everyone. At least read up above and learn something about outside the box thinking. <font face="arial" color="Green">Shireen sysop  08:05, 6 July 2007 (CEST)
 * You may be the softie of the admin team, but you take criticism like a pro. Very respectable. - [[Image:Kowal.jpg|15px]] <font face="dauphin" color="maroon">Krowman   08:07, 6 July 2007 (CEST)