Build talk:N/Mo Soul Reaping Prot Hero

Reaper's Mark
Better elite? Bit less ene and it is conditional, but there is no sac and you can have more points in Soul Reaping for more pasive ene and there is no need to spec into Blood. I think a backliner that is saccing is a bad idea when things get ugly.--Saxazaxx (talk) 16:08, 13 April 2018 (UTC) [edit: IDK how well heroes would use this. Signet of Lost Souls can also replace Jaundiced Gaze]
 * This isn't doing anything that an ER prot can't do better, except for the random enchantment removal (which could just be taken elsewhere). Toraen (talk) 13:49, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Youre right the er prot hero can spam prots better. i think the er prot spammer is limited because he cant use an elite.
 * I think if this build was changed to /rit and replaced the PoD necro healer on the standard 7 Hero Support comp, it would be a more reliable heal and you can free up rit heal skill slots on the other hybrids. thats where i see this being used.
 * In the end I think this bar's syrength over the er prot ele is that it has a free elite slot. I was thinking that without an energic(sic?) elite this bar could be changed to RoJ and castigation signet, FF and angorodons gaze should suffice for energy. I think having FF and smite condition would probably be ok too. Another smite elite or unlinked monk elite might also be cool.--- IGN: Saxazax I (capital i) or Saxazax I I - (talk) 15:31, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Actually, I think if you're going to run this on a necro, you should not have any slots used for energy management because necros get free up to 48 energy every 15 seconds--that is the power of the necro healer. The difference is that if you brought a Monk who has Divine Favor, the Monk would end up using skills less often than the Necro due to the inherent additional healing of Divine Favor, and therefore need less energy; not to mention the additional heal from extra attribute points from runes. To me it sounds like 6 of one and half a dozen of another. It is important to recognize that on most bars nowadays, 1-2 slots are reserved for energy management which means that every bar will be 12.5-25% less effective at their jobs (unless their job is managing energy... in that case it would be 12.5-25% more effective =p). I think that a 2-monk backline should be the norm--one prot, one heal. The heal should have high healing and high divine favor and the prot should have high prot and medium divine favor and energy management. With high healing the heal monk will use less energy overall and should not spec into another attribute and use up slots for energy management. Monks are supposed to be the backbone of the team--namely, utility and heal--and with less effective skills and slots used simply for energy, they are going to be at most 25% less effective in terms of skills and 25% less effective in terms of attributes... en général.
 * Necro healers should have 0 skill slots used for energy management and skills that have a high energy cost, medium recharge, and superior effect; or low energy cost and low recharge. Exception: if they have 2-3 short recharge skills which they will spam--then they need an energy manage skill to make up for it.


 * Prots' main job is to reduce incoming damage. Their secondary job is to clean hexes and conditions.
 * My thinking behind this build is: #2 = conditions, #3 = hexes, #4 = decrease dmg, #5 = decrease damage (backup), #6 should prot against spells (only option really is spirit bond), #7 should prot against very high damage (spirit bond...), #8 should prot against melee.
 * Optionals:
 * 1 (elite): Divert Hexes (nix convert hexes); or Life Sheath/Restore Condition (nix Foul Feast and bring an energy skill); or Zealous Benediction; or Shield of Regeneration/Deflection (+ energy skill); or Aura of Faith (Healer monk or necro should have more heal and less cleaning); or Signet of Removal (if 7 or 6 of your skills are enchantments); or Empathetic Removal
 * 2 (conditions): Extinguish in condi-heavy areas; or FF if running with meleers (you should!)
 * 3 (hexes): Convert Hexes; or Reverse Hex if there is less hex removal from healer
 * 4 (minus damage - all sources): Protective Spirit; or Spirit Bond (#8 must be energy skill)
 * 5 (backup minus damage - all sources): Shield of Absorption; or Shielding Hands
 * 6 (melee/projectile/wanding prot): Guardian
 * 7 (backup melee/projectile/wanding prot): Aegis
 * 8 (optional): Signet of Lost Souls if taking high-cost or high cost/medium cost, low-recharge skills; or wild card
 * ER Prot, by comparison, can have high-cost, low-recharge skills.--Saxazaxx- IGN: Saxazax I (capital i) or Saxazax I I - (talk) 21:14, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Foul Feast
This bar need some way to manage condis from FF. Monks have +15ar while affected by a condition insignias, and curses bars have plague sending/plague signet. It is true that this bar gains hp and 2 ene for every condi drawn, but i think having bleeding, poison, and deep wound on a healer can be lethal. It wound need to be managed by another party member.--- IGN: Saxazax I (capital i) or Saxazax I I - (talk) 15:31, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Archiving
I don't think that the necromancer prot should be deleted because it may be inferior to elementalist prots in certain scenarios. Soul Reaping ensures a sufficient energy gain to use the build in mid and short length fights aswell as long fights featuring a steady stream of foes. The strength of the elementalist are long fights without kills (such as against multiple healers or final bosses) – unless he fails to use his ether renewal or it gets removed once or twice. In fact I think that the necromancer prot has some advantages compared to the elementalist:
 * Only one skill slot is needed for energy management, allowing you to use 7 skills for protection, cleansing and utility skills.
 * Free elite skill choice. You could chose zealous benediction for direct healing, aura of faith for turning a target almost unkillable for 4 seconds, restore condition in condition heavy areas for cleansing and a great healing and so on. Pick something that works with your team and against your foes, as usual.
 * Access to necromancer skills, allowing you to bring one or two utility skills. I.e. enfeebling blood fits pretty well into a protection build as it further reduces incoming damage.
 * Energy management depends on deaths. If you kill foes or use ebon vanguard assassins this necromancer is going to have energy. Using the elementalist it happens every now and then that he forgets or loses his ether renewal and runs dry, forcing you to micro ether renwal. Against foes with chillblains or just a bit more enchantment removal than usual the necromancer will probably prove to be superior. (And you can just switch his build to a n/rt healer before you enter the area if you already know there's going to be a lot of enchantment removal reducing the usefulness of protection prayers :p)
 * If you want to play with elementalists dealing damage you don't want to bench one of your elementalist heroes to do the backline job. :)

Necromancer prots are a viable alternative to elementalist prots, having different strengths and weaknesses. Should keep their own page. --Krschkr (talk) 12:12, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I have heard that one of the main strengths of enfeebling blood is to all but neutralize wanding damage, which can be very important in hard mode. I would not put it on this bar because if you're going to spec 8 into Curses then you should have at least 2 skills from that specialization, otherwise it is a waste of attributes. At 6+1 Curses, however, the weakness will last 11 seconds. But there are two tradeoffs: 1. the sac amount does not change; and 2. you get less soul reaping, and this bar needs energy. Also, if you want to keep Foul Feast then you must do something with the conditions you receive (like have Angorodon's gaze; or have another player do something with the conditions you receive). Plague sending might be viable, however at 8+1 curses it will only send 2 conditions away. I recently made this build:
 * Here, the hero gets regen and armor while conditioned.
 * Benching eles to do backline job... Razah can be changed to any profession if that is an issue. But you're right.--- IGN: Saxazax I (capital i) or Saxazax I I - (talk) 16:09, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
 * 6 curses is sufficient, increasing it to 7 or 8 doesn't really add much. And no, you don't have to use the conditions you transferred to yourself. Keeping everyone else clean is totally sufficient. Btw, that N/D BiP is a total waste of a team spot. A regular BiP healer can, if there's minions or prots around, heal both himself and the team without need of healing assistance. All that N/D does is healing himself and not using his energy. If you really really really badly want to run such a build, don't forget to put vow of piety in there. --Krschkr (talk) 16:22, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Move comments on N/D BiP to this page:
 * What I mean to say about enfeebling blood is that it is much better used on a bar where Curses is maxed because the sac drawback does not inversely change with attribute changes--at lower attribute levels, the relative drawback, the health sacrifice, is greater. On a bar like the PoD N/Rt hero in the 7 Hero Player Support comp, Enfeebling Blood is perfect.
 * Anet spent years balancing these skills. Every skill has a counter, and every conditional skill's conditions must be considered. So Enfeebling Blood at low attribute levels, while it does protect against wanding damage and melee, has no place on a Prot bar--it also makes the Prots and energy management less effective. If you want Enfeebling Blood, put in on a Curse bar.
 * I said before that multiple negative conditions on a backliner can be lethal if they are not dealt with in some way. A comparison is a Monk Prot with Draw conditions: he or she can have +15 armor while conditioned from an insignia. The BiP I posted uses Conviction to gain armor and regen from any conditions. And even though Foul Feast does give health when it "draws," you have to think about when things get ugly. In Hard Mode where damage is hard, fast, and long, you do not want your Prot to have -7 degeneration from Bleeding and Poison and Deep Wound--he or she will most certainly die.
 * Now that I look at it, Angorodon's Gaze in the variant bar from "Reaper's Mark" section does not really give the necessary benefit to the scenario I just described. Those condis must be dealt with, or remove Foul Feast completely and bring Dismiss Condition.--- IGN: Saxazax I (capital i) or Saxazax I I - (talk) 18:09, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Now that I look at it, Angorodon's Gaze in the variant bar from "Reaper's Mark" section does not really give the necessary benefit to the scenario I just described. Those condis must be dealt with, or remove Foul Feast completely and bring Dismiss Condition.--- IGN: Saxazax I (capital i) or Saxazax I I - (talk) 18:09, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Comparison to ER Prot
Quoted from "Archiving:" "The strength of the elementalist are long fights without kills (such as against multiple healers or final bosses) – unless he fails to use his ether renewal or it gets removed once or twice. . . . If you kill foes or use ebon vanguard assassins this necromancer is going to have energy. Using the elementalist it happens every now and then that he forgets or loses his ether renewal and runs dry, forcing you to micro ether renwal. Against foes with chillblains or just a bit more enchantment removal than usual the necromancer will probably prove to be superior."

I prefer the Necro because his or her energy management is not vulnerable to enchantment removal. In addition, he or she can use a Prot elite. On the issue of long fights with multiple healers or boss fights, we have to consider just what this build is exactly going to be designed for. If we are going to make this a "general" build, then as a Prot spammer it trumps the ER Prot because from my memory, there are many foes in the Nightfall campaign who remove enchantments, and all Afflicted necromancers in Factions remove enchants as well. Now, the only place that there are very long boss fights or fights with multiple healers that I can think of is elite missions like FoW, DoA, or Winds of Change. So if this is going to be a "general" build I think it would be better than the ER prot because there are often many deaths which will give the necro energy unconditionally.

Re: the necro has an elite slot. As far as I know, every elite skill can be mimicked by using 2-3 non elite skills. I think most elites are essentially a compression of 2-3 other skills. So it really is not that much of an issue if the ER Prot does not have an elite; he or she can simply compensate for the missing effects by adding another skill.--- IGN: Saxazax I (capital i) or Saxazax I I - (talk) 15:58, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

WELL
I placed it for the build as posted, which uses multiple energy management skills mainbarred (including the elite) to achieve the same effect as ER and makes no real use of the necromancer primary otherwise. If anyone wants to keep it I suggest reworking the page since OoB, Agaze, Jgaze, and Soul Reaping are likely not all necessary to manage energy (and it seems the arguments for keeping it are based on switching out skills like the elite anyway). Also the page should be renamed but we'll wait on that to see if the build itself can be salvaged. Toraen (talk) 02:13, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Reworked to Build:N/Mo SoLS Prot Hero; guess if the N/Rt healer bears such a name that's what people would recognize most easily. --Krschkr (talk) 10:26, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

New Page
Leave a note on the main page that this bar has an open elite slot in comparison to the ER Prot. People who haven't read the discussion page would might not realize that.--- IGN: Saxazax I (capital i) or Saxazax I I - (talk) 00:53, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
 * It is also cannot be shut down by enchantment removal.--- IGN: Saxazax I (capital i) or Saxazax I I - (talk) 00:56, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Updated the page to better reflect meta and got rid of bad or redundant options. Please note that Foul Feast reportedly has some bugs, where heros won't remove a condition from you if they have it themselves. You can test it yourself on isle of nameless. Willarddog (talk) 12:07, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Life Sheath and Reversal of Fortune need some testing on hero usage to see if they work well. Historically hero's are reluctant to use them. Willarddog (talk) 21:40, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Exploring Healing Prayers
One pretty big and well known downside to N/Mo (over a N/Rt resto) in 8-man team scenarios, where you would also take an ST and a BiP resto backline, is that the N/Mo hero is vulnerable to party-wide pressure because it lacks the ability to directly redbar like a second N/Rt can. There are some variant changes you can make to help with this: [[Zealous Benediction@12] for direct heals, [[Restore Condition@12] for strong condition removal to counter mass condition degen, and [[Divert Hexes@12] to counter hex degen pressure. I have gone ahead and added these onto the main page. The current bar & optionals have no direct healing outside of ZB, with only conditional healing from [[Spirit Bond@12], or from the elite variants RC and DH.

One alternative solution is to look into healing prayers. You can go in a few different directions here. One upside to this is that all heals synergize really well with [[Aura of Faith@12].

The following possible ideas can fit in any which way. Combined with other healing prayers; or by themselves on the prot bar. Keep an open mind:
 * [[Gift of Health@10] : Cheap, solid heal with low cd. Not to be combined with other healing prayers. Could redbar really well combined with ZB, or simply to round out the prot bar.


 * [[Word of Healing@12] : Big 179 heal. Heros use this skill very well to take advantage of the conditional bonus heal. Strong contender to replace ZB if you spec into healing prayers
 * [[Light of Deliverance@12] : Spammable party healing. Works well to help counter party-wide degen pressure.


 * [[Dwayna's Kiss@12] : Combine with WoH if you want more healing. Great in teams with lots of enchantments.
 * [[Cure Hex@12] : Alternative hex removal over Reverse Hex.

Three ways to work the attributes:
 * 12 (8+1+3) Soul Reaping, 12 prot, 10 healing, 3 (2+1) curses (If taking 1 Healing Prayer spell)
 * 12 (8+1+3) Soul Reaping, 10 prot, 12 healing, 3 (2+1) curses (If taking 2+ Healing Prayers spells)
 * 14 (10+1+3) Soul Reaping, 10 Prot, 10 Healing, 6 (5+1) Curses (If you really wanted better energy? Meh. Only including it for comparisons' sake)

Gift of Healing (or WoH or LoD) works effectively by itself @10 healing prayers with no other healing prayers spells. Only take Dwayna's Kiss or Cure Hex if you're also taking either WoH or LoD. While you could keep it at 10, if you are bringing 2+ healing prayers spells, I would raise healing prayers to 12. --Willarddog (talk) 21:36, 12 June 2020 (UTC)


 * I cleaned up the main page a bit, and took away bad optionals. Also bump on Healing Prayers variants. They all benefit from the AI using them very well, as well as being cheap and spammable, which is a boon with the slightly reduced soul reaping (not that you would have energy issues anyways with 12 soul reaping + SoLS) Willarddog (talk) 21:50, 16 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Also added Empathic Removal as it's also on the N/Mo Prot Player page Willarddog (talk) 20:01, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Death Magic
Stumbled upon this: User:ZStepmother/Team - DoA and scroll down to the N/Mo Prot bar. I know this page is meant for DoA HM, but the idea has merit for general PvE imo. Death Magic makes a lot of sense here? Can add a not-so-insignificant amount of armor ignoring AoE damage, as well as opening up Withering Aura as an optional for melee players (yeti smash especially). Shield of Deflection and UA also deserve honorable mentions, as they are strong when used as intended. Willarddog (talk) 01:48, 1 May 2021 (UTC)