User talk:Toraen/Archive 9

gw vs gww linking
Why do you link a lot of your edits to gww? gw is also run by curse. Imo, it'd be fair to treat fellow sites run and operated by the same company a bit of respect. So, just wondered why. 72.148.31.114 20:40, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Because we leave it to user preference. It's fine saying that GWiki is hosted by Curse therefore we must link to them, but at the end of the day if GWW's article is better (more (accurate) information/facts or whatever), why should the end user suffer because we force a standard of linking to one wiki over another?  ~ PheNaxKian talk  20:49, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, it's not necessarily a force, but was wondering why many icons, etc. that have better information (in my opinion) on wiki like skills, are linke instead to gww... It was puzzling. 72.148.31.114 21:05, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * ah. In that case I think we picked gww because it was the official wiki.  ~ PheNaxKian talk  21:06, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Tbh phen it could be worth reconsidering. That decision was made ages ago and I haven't really seen it debated. What kind of work load would it be to change it? rąʂKƴɖooƿɭɘş 21:22, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I honestly think GWW is better in most areas. Guild Wiki is hardly editted at all(less than PvX usually), and for most pages now GWW is more robust. -- Jai' s Computer -  21:36, January 3 2012 (UTC)
 * Majority, reason why gww is edited, is because so many may not know about guildwiki. With more willing to update guildwiki and keep it updated, it'd be just as well active as gww. Also, it's ability to be more detailed and helpful in missions, guides to farming (which gww does not do), etc. 72.148.31.114 22:25, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The decision was partially made due to how much cock Wikia liked having shoved down its throat. At this point, I'm not sure if there's any reason to really change it - and the official wiki will always have more confidence placed in it, arguably. Danny 03:18, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
 * GWW is hardly likely to disappear before the end of gw, though the same cannot be said of guildwiki. [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] Chieftain   Alex  09:57, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
 * One important point is that it isn't our job to promote Curse or Guildwiki. We don't really give a shit about whether or not Guildwiki attracts new editors. In terms of skill information GWW tends to update faster and in my opinion has better skill pages. That's why I advocated it being the default link back in the day. I admit it has been a long time since I've looked. If people want to change it, they are welcome to bring it up, but they should have a compelling reason. If Guildwiki has better guides, nothing stops you from linking the guides on relevant builds, but what wiki our build templates link to seems pretty irrelevant. A new misery  22:20, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Misery, you art thou-st a misery, but <3 u. It's not your job to promote Curse, but they are freely hosting you. It'd be nice. However, you don't have to promote Curse, cause they already have their links. With GuildWiki, which was and is the "original" and "first" wiki (just moved a few times). One would think to link "some" things to them out of respect. Skills may not be "updated" quick enough on GW, but Imo the missions, etc. are better detailed than on gww. Some things are better on guildwiki to follow, etc. than gww. 72.148.31.114 00:00, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Isn't that what misery just said?-- Relyk 00:07, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
 * What Relyk said. Just link to the guides then. It's very unlikely that the build templates would ever be changed unless GWW went down or suddenly became a shithole. Danny 05:52, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
 * We're going to need a better reason than "I think we should" to change all the skill links to point to one wiki. The skill icon templates would be easy enough to change (if we ignore that it's a strain on the servers to change a widely used template), but there are many, many places where it's just a link. Also, the PvXbig extension would need to be altered (and that's never as easy as it should be in theory). If you want to link to one wiki over the other, do so on any pages you create, but don't flood RC with changing every page where your wiki of choice isn't linked. -- Toraen   confer  06:47, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
 * When the hell do we ever link to mission pages anyway? Some specific PvE build for one mission? Does that even exist? A new misery  11:33, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
 * All we have is about three running builds similar to this one tbh. - Athrun Feya [[Image:Athrun snow sig.gif]] 11:44, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

fyi
Thanks for cleaning up all the small little mistakes that I always miss. :p Vincent Evan [Air Henchman]   04:04, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

WE LOVE YOU
Thanks for being our charming administrator. rąʂKƴɖooƿɭɘş 00:48, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Isn't there a day we can honour him? :P  Shadow The Mayans are wrong! 09:32, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
 * It's today. rąʂKƴɖooƿɭɘş 11:58, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed ^^  Shadow The Mayans are wrong! 12:01, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you!
rąʂKƴɖooƿɭɘş 09:10, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
 * What for? -- Toraen   confer  09:27, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Deleting that page? >: rąʂKƴɖooƿɭɘş 10:05, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah, I usually don't get thanked for things like that. You're welcome! -- Toraen   confer  10:21, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks again <3 rąʂKƴɖooƿɭɘş 05:20, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Extension stuff
Can you copy anything that's on the file share that you think isn't live yet? When you give the all clear i'm going to delete those files and re-upload the current live ones so we're back in sync (I think you mentioned that we might have fallen out of sync so it's just a check).  ~ PheNaxKian talk  18:25, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Ok, go ahead. -- Toraen   confer  23:17, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Can you get on MSN at all?  ~ PheNaxKian talk  21:31, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Auto-Toraen
How come it wiped out around 800KB from that page?  ~ PheNaxKian talk  00:36, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
 * obviously skynet. Danny 00:43, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Given how slowly a preview loads for me on the old revisions, the text probably only partially loaded, the bot modified it, and saved only a small section of the page as a result. It's an autoit script rather than a real external wiki-editing program so I am not surprised. -- Toraen   confer  01:54, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh wow, it copied one of User:Dont's pages over it instead of working properly. What a piece of shit. --  Toraen   confer  01:58, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Well tinyurl triggers the spam filter. Someone had a tinyurl on that page from before we had it and the bot probably flipped over the error message or something. -- Toraen   confer  02:03, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah. Also, would you be so kind (if you don't mind) sending me the source for Auto-Toraen? I'm looking into making a bot for the wiki (there's a task I want doing), but I don't find the mediawiki documentation useful =x. <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  17:32, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Prepare to be disappointed, it's on the box for you. -- Toraen   confer  22:04, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Well that's cheating. Thanks though =). Also I'm about to upload the extension files. <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  23:00, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Changes uploaded. Also, I'm considering switching extension files to dropbox since it's much easier to work with for them and lets you retrieve previous versions (even on the free plan). I might even move the build packs over if we do that since it doesn't require a download page (we lose the download statistics but I don't really care that much). -- Toraen   confer  15:11, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
 * That's fine with me. <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  17:12, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Praise for Auto Toraen
Might as well start here, thats an impressively long deletion list. <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  18:53, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
 * It deleted all my images lol. <3-- Relyk 19:07, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
 * If you really want any of them back, just list them. Don't expect me to hunt for anything you can't link though! -- Toraen   confer  01:25, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The only one I need back is the image of the Golems making a GW in Gunnar's Hold. Pretty sure it's File:GWGolems.jpg. The rest I can do without.-- Relyk 02:23, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * There ya go. And it's linked now so it won't show up in unused again. -- Toraen   confer  03:08, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Zzz... GWGolems.jpg -- Toraen   confer  15:26, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Image tag?
I have a question regarding image copyrights, what is the appropriate image tag if the image is released under by-nc-sa 2.0 i.e. the guildwiki/pvx license? (I'd like to know so I can tag LordBiro's tango images like and  )  <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain  <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  15:08, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
 * license looks like what you need. Also, our license is actually by-nc-sa 2.5 but I'm pretty sure they're compatible anyway. -- Toraen   confer  15:47, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Cheers. (I'm now wondering if the other image tagging templates should be categorised like the screenshot and other anet ones are) [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain  <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  16:05, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Ups
Forgot to move it since I was so fucked up by the archival template. -- DANDY ^_^ -- 15:39, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * It's alright. I would have archived it myself at 2 weeks though, seeing as it's been here a while. -- Toraen   confer  15:41, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I've been trying to reach you on msn all week. rąʂKƴɖooƿɭɘş 17:40, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh shit, I forgot to leave it on. Sorry :( -- Toraen   confer  17:52, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * It's alright, wasn't trying to contest my ban. I just wanted to bug you <3 rąʂKƴɖooƿɭɘş 17:57, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Three files
I'm curious as to why Auto-toraen thought these three images were unused since they're linked on Build:Team - Rragar's Stormway. -- <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain  <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  22:46, 18 January 2012 (UTC)
 * File:Rragarsc lvl1.jpg
 * File:Rragarsc lvl2.jpg
 * File:Rragarsc lvl3.jpg
 * I compiled the list before you added those. The script doesn't parse Special:UnusedFiles directly since it's not especially machine readable. -- Toraen   confer  22:55, 18 January 2012 (UTC)
 * How hard is it to add Special pages? I'm not sure what they're comprised of on the back end. I think it'd be rather easy to add a admin/bot-only access page that just printed out the (presumably) long list of unused images. Danny 10:39, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't know what needs to be done to add them. I do have code for a few of the special pages unique to us (the rating stuff) and they're just 1 .php per special page. Though it's a bit late to make such a page for unused images (we're down to like 12 images or so that I felt shouldn't be deleted). Uncategorized images is the current problem (well over 2000 images and bots can't tell which image goes in what category). I've already made the list for that though as well. I just have to copy+paste into notepad++ and cut out all the junk with find+replace so it's not so bad. -- Toraen   confer  14:58, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Toraen
I'm bored >: Wanna play some gw?  RąʂKɭɘş Mission control out. 03:13, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
 * threadjacking: I've never before had to add a custom stylesheet to PvX to change someone's signature. Congratulations on this achievement, Rask. Danny 07:12, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I plotted for like 30 minutes on the rage my signature would incur. You're cheating.  RąʂKɭɘş Mission control out. 07:35, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

I hope I haven't missed my opportunity. IGN? I don't think I have you on my list. -- Toraen   confer  17:19, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Pretty sure his is "Rask of Shadow" [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain  <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  17:51, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Yep, what's your ign toraen? Also why do we use X/any over X/Any?  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  Mission control out.  23:49, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Naming convention from ages ago, too late to bother changing it. All my IGNs are on my user page, but here it is again if you're lazy: Toraen Nakure. -- Toraen   confer  23:52, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Checked after I asked and added you, when you wanna do some gw let me know on msn. I love solo running frostmaws <:  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  Mission control out.  02:43, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Get on msn or gw!!1!!  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  23:45, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
 * ^ Msn plz. - <font color="CornflowerBlue">Athrun <font color="CornflowerBlue">Feya [[Image:Athrun snow sig.gif]] 17:26, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm always on msn lau!  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  05:01, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Archiving
Hey Toraen, I want to ask you if I could consider some builds to be archived or at least looked at for an archive?  Shadow  Talk  21:57, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Just put archive-pending at the top if you think they need an archive. I agree with the hexway-related builds (hardly anyone hexways last I checked) but I'm not much of an obser. -- Toraen   confer  22:01, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's why I want to archive them. I look for those build via observing or just looking what pps search in HA.  Shadow  Talk  22:02, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, we need more than two people (especially when one of those people is me) to agree on archiving builds. Preferably, an MC would be helping with this, but only Tahiri is active and he got banned. -- Toraen   confer  22:04, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I can rely on Vincent to judge and Jake is banned ye :S. Frostels is also not active, which means we 1: need a PvP admin, 2: get an admin interested in PvP :P, at least, if I follow your statement  Shadow  Talk  22:06, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
 * This is what I can think of for PvP. I want to ask, do we need to close down any PvE things? I don't know, because PvE can't be watched  Shadow  Talk  22:34, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
 * PvE is probably fine for the most part. Any SCs/running builds can be monitored by going to the relevant outpost, and general/hero builds don't need much tweaking between skill updates. People will add theorycrafts and occasionally will even be vetted. -- Toraen   confer  22:58, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Shared thoughts. PvE is bigger than PvP, at least, I noticed. I may go and skim through to look if there are two farm builds that do the same. Fastest one wins?  Shadow  Talk  23:05, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Exceptions for some SC builds (Mes vs. Terra won't get vetted for speed)  Shadow  Talk  23:06, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Example: 4 FoW Forest Farmer (Ranger). Even 5 with R/A counted  Shadow  Talk  23:16, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
 * They're not even worth archiving, maybe 5-7 people used those 4 build in total, spirit spam and r/a made those builds archaic.-- Relyk 23:25, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
 * So, what shall we do with it?  Shadow  Talk  23:26, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Just dump them in archive. Can't confirm how widely used they used to be, but SF and spirit spam weren't even options for farming forest back then. They're definitely inferior now though. -- Toraen   confer  00:02, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

restarting indent Will do  Shadow  Talk  08:05, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * O.m.g. I took a look at PvE and I was shocked by some builds that could be archived...  Shadow  Talk  09:37, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * That was an impressive archive list. Is there some reason those are still here? I'm waiting until my this build is vetted to archive this one. Since the archive failed on this, I may try to rewrite it to be less bad. I noticed that every solo trap UW build has gone down the tubes to archive, so the lone remainder shouldn't say dumb things like Terrorwebs and Bone Pits are hard or impossible respectively. MisterB 19:38, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I have been respecting some solo-duo builds. Like Whirling Farmer, which can be done with a bonder too to do more than a few farms. I will keep hunting some builds and there may appear another list of archives soon.  Shadow  Talk  19:45, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Added another list in the PvE section of archived builds. Time to get rid of some...  Shadow  Talk  20:44, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Skill descriptions
It is very annoying that we can't see the updated versions. Will you and Phen do something about it?  Shadow  Talk  21:15, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * It's not in my hands. Phen is the one who needs to coordinate with Curse since he has the dev access. -- Toraen   confer  21:44, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay, it's just annoying to not see what the skill really does :(  Shadow  Talk  21:48, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll ask Tim about this again tomorrow, and if he's still busy I'll shoot Bryan an e-mail (hopefully he'll be a bit less busy). I'll try and get this sorted this week. <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  22:09, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks  Shadow  Talk  06:14, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

thanks
for not reverting my talk pageEdeth 13:02, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Sup Toraen
I decided to drop by for a while to quash my boredom. How would I go about updating skills for the database because it's been so long that I have no idea what to do! this is in no way copypasted. <font color="Black">Frostels 19:08, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll send you access to the box.com account we're using. MSN/email me at some point so I can send you the name/password for it. -- Toraen   confer  19:21, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
 * TORAEN I HATE RUSHING ACCOUNTS SO MUCH! FFS I NEED A JOB DX  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  19:23, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Code stuffs
Just thought I'd let you know. I did work on this sometime last week (all the changes you wanted). However I was also working on the PvP skill issue, and that's broke the template codes somehow (I honestly can't get my head round it, they just give the wrong value =x). Anyway. I'll give it a bit more of a look tomorrow/Tuesday, and push (or ask for it to be) whatever works live Wednesday, unless you're wanting the changes urgently? <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  23:40, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The Recent/User ratings fixes seem to already have been pushed live. As for PvP skills, we'll have to look over that together at some point. If you've made some changes upload as a separate file to the box and I'll try to help in finding out where things are going wrong. -- Toraen   confer  00:49, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Equipment Template
On second thought, I think, if it is in your realm of power, more lines of coding would be really helpful. Four slots will make everything just compressed. Five to six slots should be fine. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]   22:39, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * It is done. -- Toraen   confer  22:51, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * You rock, sir. :) <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 22:53, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Vote Wipe
I also asked on AN, a vote wipe on  Shadow   Umbra scriptor Disputatio  22:52, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

MSN
Get on it.  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  01:17, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

NRA rage warrior
I can't find the build in archives, it should've been archived if it was tashed :/-- Relyk 14:34, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
 * It was deleted as trash. I'm looking at the discussion page right now and no one seemed to want to argue for its retention in archive. There was one discussion where people said it should be archived even rated as good because no one ran it ever. You even kind of argued against archiving it then. It was only rated good and was never really part of the meta so I am unsurprised it wasn't archived. Did you want a copy of it for your user space? A new misery  14:48, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
 * -- Relyk 15:00, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Hey
I replied, still waiting on your response on the issue. I'm seeing a ton of drama concerning my vote yet all of the 5-5 votes with incorrect reasoning are being ignored. I'm clearly not the minority trashing this build so I'm just wondering how long this is going to go on.  With Love~, ♣  RąʂKɭɘş  23:22, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
 * God I'm tired of PvX. I've responded but geez guys. -- Toraen   confer  02:35, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
 * You've got a point. When looking at the votes on the builds you voted on as well, I do see what you're complaining about. Some votes provide no reasoning but just go 5-5 or something --  Shadow  Talk with me :D  13:32, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Email
I sent you the last little change that will be needed with the MW upgrade if I don't happen to be around when it happens. If you do it you might want to edit the site notice to tell people to clear their cache for PvX (ctrl+F5 in Firefox). <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  23:30, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Problems
Recent ratings link on the side bar is recentratings. A new misery 16:03, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Fixed. -- Toraen   confer  16:10, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
 * The moving of the rating tab is already throwing me off. I love that it has been moved though.-- Relyk 16:25, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Be glad the tab's there at all, that's all I'm saying <<. <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  16:44, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Category:Pages with broken file links
Is this a new categorisation tool to find bad links? It seems to have autopopulated on this edit. <font face="Calibri" color=black>Chieftain Alex 18:10, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Looks like it. Related, I'm going to bookmark that now. -- Toraen   confer  18:14, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Opinion
Plain applesauce or cinnamon applesauce?  Rask ✂  ✂  ✂  ✂  21:03, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Plain. Falrach 14:00, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Strawberry. -- Toraen   confer  14:08, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
 * +10 points for thinking outside the box.  Rask ✂  ✂  ✂  ✂  15:10, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
 * We only have plain over here. Falrach 15:18, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Copyright deletions
Many of the taggings and deletions done by the bot are quite frankly ridiculous. Most of the images are allowed by fair use, so, for example, File:Grinch EVE Online characters.png is fine. There was commentary on it. As a result, I'll be reverting whatever is in my watch list that complies with fair use but I don't have time to do the rest.  —ǥrɩɳsɧƴ ɖɩđđɭɘş   15:33, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I expect that people will untag images that shouldn't be deleted (if they still care about these images), which is why I waited so long for this round of deletions and haven't deleted this next batch yet. I just ask that you tag it with an appropriate license tag so it stops showing up in uncategorized. -- Toraen   confer  15:36, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Do you remember the license tag?  —ǥrɩɳsɧƴ ɖɩđđɭɘş  [[Image:Grinshpon blinky cake.gif|19px]] 15:37, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
 * One of these:
 * Self
 * From Wikimedia
 * GFDL License
 * Other free
 * PD
 * Permission: requires that you use license to provide additional information.
 * No license: only as a last resort, we'll still have to tag it later
 * -- Toraen   confer  15:43, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

TL;DR
Long tl;dr's used to be hilarious and welcoming. Just wondering why a simple story which wasn't offensive in the slightest is now a bannable offense? 75.142.155.43 19:11, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
 * That was pretty much my opinion when I reverted the removal. Besides just being stupid, I didn't see much wrong with it. -- Jai .  -  19:13, March 18 2012 (UTC)
 * I didn't see the moral value in it. Anyways, since enormous used to make tl;dr, they haven't been really appreciated. --  Shadow Step 19:25, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Obvious troll is obvious, however. Why are you surprised, considering how often you write tl;dr's and even dedicate whole pages to nonsense... ~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs 19:32, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
 * We were referring to non-drama related tl;drs like the epic Mshot and cripshot fanfic. 19:37, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Vincent is really bad at tl;drs and therefore should be banned.-- Relyk 21:02, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Can I trade Vincent, shadow and rask for Enormous? prefered the latter. <font face="Calibri" color=black>Chieftain Alex  21:35, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
 * His tl;dr's were never tl to read :D At least he was funny. Is he inactive now? ~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs 21:40, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
 * You will trade anyone for Minion or Enormous, which, of course, is just plain stupid. --  Shadow Step 21:56, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I wish phen was here :>  Rask ✂  ✂  ✂  ✂  22:19, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I am. <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  23:10, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I missed you <3  Rask ✂  ✂  ✂  ✂  01:24, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
 * In other words, you prefer people you can ignore over people who ignore you. Maybe try and figure out why people ignore others and you might see your problem. -- Jai .  -  01:51, March 19 2012 (UTC)
 * My only problem is the severe increase in guru spam showing up on pvx. Used to take 10 seconds to trash a guru build, now it takes an entire week. We need a build master :\  Rask ✂  ✂  ✂  ✂  06:13, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
 * And I need an attractive asian that I can have sex with and that isn't fucking crazy. And isn't a blowup doll. Unfortunately, neither of our needs are going to be fulfilled. -- Jai .  -  06:30, March 19 2012 (UTC)
 * You obviously don't go to a state university. Danny 07:00, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
 * He goes to the University of Rask's Sluts. Gotta keep my bitches classy.  Rask ✂  ✂  ✂  ✂  07:06, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
 * You obviously don't live in a city that is comprised almost solely of suck. If they're good looking, they're apeshit crazy. Or worse, dumb. -- Jai .  -  11:56, March 19 2012 (UTC)
 * I have composed this piece especially for you Jaigoda. You'll have to excuse my violin playing, it really isn't up to the standard such an occasion demands, but I hope I can do justice to the situation, such that the whole world can empathise with your pain. A new misery  12:14, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Hey, I'm fine with how things are. Shitty town means more time for video gamez. Though the crappy internet is something I would very, very much like fixed. And now that we've gone over my life story, let's get back to the fact that build masters are currently impossible because everybody here sucks at GW. -- Jai .  -  12:37, March 19 2012 (UTC)
 * I didn't say all the bitches here weren't crazy. That'd just be silly. I've stuck my dick in enough crazy to make Tucker Max proud. Danny 20:28, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Aside from game updates and odd fluxes, do you really need bm/meta caretaker's anymore? The meta barely shifts and almost everything thats worth running is on pvx. Hence why most stuff thats posted now gets trashed... <font color="Black">Frostels 20:47, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I like how there's only race specified; not gender. :> Pew   Pew ♥   20:58, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
 * @Frosty the issue isn't meta changes or even bad builds. It's all these guru faggots flocking to pvx and causing drama when their builds get trashed or someone disagrees with them. Phen and Toraen are the only active admins and they have lives, neither you or misery are particularly going out of your way to stop it either, as ska said once upon a time "it shouldn't take 2 weeks to trash a bad build". Vote policing is preventing builds from being trashed, even when one build won't change the rating of the build the drama still puts everything at a hold until everyone gets tired of arguing.  Rask ✂  ✂  ✂  ✂  22:02, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I was afraid someone would notice that. Yeah, I'm pretty much 100% straight, much to Rask's dissatisfaction. -- Jai .  -  02:52, March 20 2012 (UTC)
 * The trash builds get trashed eventually. We aren't in a rush.-- Relyk 05:45, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * A bad build in good or testing will ruin PvX's reputation! A new misery  09:11, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * but we only have our reputation! at least ever since it was deemed that gay skater porn is unacceptable posting material. Danny 09:54, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I chuckled, but surely there are enough of you pve'ers (no disrespect intended) to just trash a bad build when it comes by? <font color="Black">Frostels 10:28, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * You are sorely mistaken. In PvE, any build you make is yourself fun and effective. You need only convince everyone else it's fun.-- Relyk 13:57, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Flux tag for archived builds
Come April we are going to be archiving a number of PvP builds that were made effective due to the Flux. I was thinking a tag could be made to just slap under the archive template that says the build was only effective for a certain flux. Either that or we just detail out the flux details on the builds we archive. Thoughts? also semi-open discussion. <font color="Black">Frostels 18:59, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * the archive template takes reasons doesn't it? just put the first point as "only good due to flux for month X" or something? <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  19:39, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * We could create a category to put on them as well, so they don't get lost in the archives. <font face="Calibri" color=black>Chieftain Alex  19:42, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * would it really matter if they did? <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  20:45, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Since I posted that I just added all the builds we've tagged to the flux page so whatever. <font face="Calibri" color=black>Chieftain Alex  21:01, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * It would if the flux effects repeat at some point in the future. -- Jai .  -  23:25, March 20 2012 (UTC)
 * Ctrl-F to the rescue? ~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs 00:18, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * You're talking around a year apart. Even then there's (possiably) going to have been skill changes since the flux was previously in effect, so you probably won't even touch the same build. It seems like it's creating work for no reason. <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  16:55, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Good point, would be a lot better to just link to the Flux it was used in. Silly me. <font color="Black">Frostels 18:08, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Mhmm. CTRL+F, then Meek or whatever for the month you're looking for. &mdash;  ska  21:46, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

FA Dominating Wind
Pls votewipe, problems in rate section of the build have been solved due to changed version of the build with no high cast time skills. Thanks, Triss 07:54, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Triss, you do realize that no matter what you put on the mainbar and how many times you call for a votewipe, it's going to get trashed, right? There is literally zero chance of that build getting vetted, and you're just clinging to an already sunk ship. -- Jai .  -  12:42, March 29 2012 (UTC)
 * Only one vote still complained about the 3 second cast skills, and it was removed. Everyone else has other reasons that are still valid enough that I can't remove them. -- Toraen   confer  17:08, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

GW2 Builds
Hey Toraen, I haven't been around for a while so forgive me if this has already been brought up: are there any plans to create a pvx site for Guild Wars 2 builds? -- Moto   Saxon  16:24, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Not really (at least not among this crowd). I have only a couple thoughts on it, but I'm not sure that I'll even be able to play it at launch, so I haven't devoted my time to thinking about it. -- Toraen   confer  20:14, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
 * What do you NEED to play it?  Rask ✂  ✂  ✂  ✂  22:25, 30 March 2012 (UTC)
 * if i end up playing, i'd probably be willing to build a custom-ish site. it's just a matter of whether or not there's really any need for it, or what exactly that need is for. Danny 15:12, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd be willing to work on the back end (if it was C# I could basically write the whole of the back end, depending on the mechanics of the game) if we did that, but I think you have a tendeency to be more PHP/Python orientated? <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  17:04, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Thing is with traits and feats, it's a case of would a PvX style site be viable...? <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  16:09, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Slightly off-topic, I know in GW you have to pick a race, and a profession, but can you have secondary professions too? Or will GW2's race be like GW1 primary profession? <font color="Black">Frostels 16:27, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
 * There are no secondary professions, and race is more for flavor than your build. There are some racial-exclusive skills but none are supposed to be very powerful (Charrzooka is hilariously awesome but not something you'd always slot). Oh, and in structured PvP racial skills are disabled anyway to keep things balanced. -- Toraen   confer  16:29, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
 * You could consider your weapon sets the "secondary profession", as far as choosing skills are concerned. GW is 8 skills at once... I think GW2 will be about 13 skills due to weapon swapping. But with the freedom you have for swapping skills just outside battle, there's less of a learning curve. ~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs 17:18, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
 * With each profession the amount of available skills in-combat is different due to the unique profession mechanics (pets for rangers, shatters for mesmers, kits for engineers, attunements for elementalists, etc.). It goes upward of 15 skills depending on profession (counting chain skills as single skills and assuming you don't do things like equip the same offhand in both sets). Also, some utility and elite skills spawn extra weapons that can be picked up and used, giving a different set of 1-5 skills. Then there's traits and the equipment's modifiers. -- Toraen   confer  17:48, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

The real problem with GW2 is that you cant mix skills so much, and you dont have secondary profession. If youll do PvX2 I foresee there will be at most 5 builds per profession, and then until the Canthan expansion will be released we will do a fucking nothing more then troll builds. <font color="DarkGreen">Chonsy <font color="DarkGreen">Rulez  17:24, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
 * There's going to be a Cantha expansion....? But you do actually get a lot of choice. Your elite slot and 4 utility skills. The weapon sets are going to help balance the game slightly, for PvP. I'd imagine there would be less need for skill balancing as the game is going to play out like TF2, imo. If they do balance; that can include moving skills from weapon to weapon. ~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs 17:53, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Correct. Obviously we'll have certain guides on well rounded or overall overpowered builds. Guild Wars 2 will still need a wiki for builds, I don't even think we would need a separate site for it.  Rask ✂  ✂  ✂  ✂  23:08, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I hope GW2 will need a PvX. But, as I said, for the first period (When only GW2 "Tyria" is out) we'll do nothing at all. More effort could be put in PvP teams, but overall were not going to do so much. When "Cantha" and "Elona" DLCs will be released things will be as GW1 more or less. [[Image:40px-Crippling Shot.jpg|19px]] <font color="DarkGreen">Chonsy <font color="DarkGreen">Rulez  15:33, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Assassin's Promise drama fix
First off, I'd like to say that this fix only works with windows 2000. Why don't we DELETE all of the AP builds, create an Any/A Assassin's Promise Spiker, blank the page with a redirect to an AP guide. This way A. No drama about votes, since there would be no need to vote, B. IP's and randoms won't have to go trudging through the guide section to see it. Opinions? This is open to everyone btw, even you Soi.  Rask ✂  ✂  ✂  ✂  03:30, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Or stop trying to cause drama. This issue has been argued ad nauseum.-- Relyk 03:45, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * No. (Soi) 86.183.254.164 03:50, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * soi is the one contesting votes, I'm offering a solution instead of pointing fingers. @Soi you have no say in this.  Rask ✂  ✂  ✂  ✂  04:38, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * An AP guide with no build(s) to point to is just bypassing vetting, which is stupid. AP builds ended up separate because AP-style builds don't rank equally across all professions (and partially due to "Discord Caller doesn't deserve a separate page", but that's a defunct argument now). Each gets vetted based on whether it's actually a worthwhile option for that profession in comparison to its other builds. You could try proposing a merge to an any/A page and bring up some points that could change my mind ("the first 3-4 skills are the same" by itself won't cut it, given what I just said), but its staying in the buildspace if it's going to exist on PvX. -- Toraen   confer  04:50, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry but I disagree with you completely on this. Following a guildeline just for the sake of following the guideline is retarded. That rule was put in place to prevent people from posting their shitty builds and using the "It's a guide" excuse to keep it in the public eye. I'm not the one who wants to keep the build here, other people do, I'm just offering an extremely reasonable and simple solution. We made the rules as a community, as a community we should be able to break them or change them, when it's just one single person doing it then it becomes an issue. I'm not going to push this as I could care less what happens to AP Jeydra pwn epic lightning pew build. As I said, just offering a simple solution, everyone else decides if it'll work or not.  Rask ✂  ✂  ✂  ✂  05:39, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * No. Your argument is stupid. ~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs 06:06, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * how2bait?  Rask ✂  ✂  ✂  ✂  06:11, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I did have a 7 paragraph tl;dr but it's pointless. Removing meta or old meta builds from pvx because you don't like them is stupid. ~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs  06:57, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I have to say, Rask has a point. Just because that's how something's usually done doesn't mean an exception can't be made. If there ever was a need for this exception, any/A is certainly it. Danny 06:12, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not really opposed to an Assassin's Promise guide per se, but if there is an AP build which is meta, historically relevant or just one of the best options for that class, it shold probably stay in the build space too. A new misery  06:46, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * All of them are meta, but they should be archived since there are more versatile alternatives. This leaves the guide in a place everyone will see and will also allow for more in depth usage and variations. I honestly don't know why this hasn't been done before, redirecting to a guide is pretty smart.  Rask ✂  ✂  ✂  ✂  07:59, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * A link is not as direct as a build page, and a guide cannot be more in-depth... ~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs 08:28, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * "All of them are meta." If they are still meta then they should be tagged as meta, not archived, even if they are bad. This was part of the idea originally, so that stuff like Sway and Ride the Lightning fame farm still got recorded, even though they are fucking terrible and only beat bad people. If they were meta, but aren't now and can't pass vetting, they should be archived. Even if you hate Guru Rask, it probably is a pretty good measure of PvE meta, even if it is baddie PvE meta. At the moment, you seem to be PvXing wrong. A new misery  09:05, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * @Soi a redirect isn't a link, it's a redirect.
 * @Misery I was infering AP is a meta build in general, not any one build. Sorry if I didn't convey properly, also I don't "hate" guru, guru is bad, guru is not meta, the majority of players in game don't refer to guru for builds. This is a common and quite frankly dumb misconception.  Rask ✂  ✂  ✂  ✂  09:36, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I dunno bro, I don't play PvE. I am pretty sure you can work out which classes it is meta for. For example, I guarantee you it is not meta for warriors. A new misery  10:01, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Generic AP page would be retarded given that anything downloaded in the build pack wouldn't be valid.. <font face="Calibri" color=black>Chieftain Alex  11:17, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Necro is set as meta, even ignoring markway or discordway. Ele is popular and garnered much support after Jeydra "glamorized" its usage. Mesmer is popular enough for meta. Monk is niche, but probably used as much as RoJ out of boredom. Assassin also sees plenty of use as an alternative to the meta dagger spam. Ritualist has niche usage, meta is overtly spirit spam. Ranger and Dervish sees little if any use, for good reason. Warrior and Paragon are joke builds. You can bandwagon everything to trash except the AP necro. Rask has already done this for the two more popular AP builds, ele and mesmer, mostly because they are viewed as suboptimal.
 * My stance is the same as Toraen, guidelines and policies have nothing to do with it.-- Relyk 11:48, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Well the community has spoken, I think we can consider the idea trashed.  Rask ✂  ✂  ✂  ✂  12:23, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

It's Rask
New account, requesting perma on my old one. T̡̗͔̐̊ͭ̏͑̓ͯ̀͠H̹͇̺̄ͨ̿̐̅͊Ëͭ̂̆̇͗̄̚͏̰̤̜͕͈̮̲̭Ȳ̶̴̠͚͙̚̕ 12:51, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * You're a strange one. Also, that sig looks very sexy but also appears to be breaking about 30 or so rules. -- Jai .  -  13:05, April 3 2012 (UTC)
 * It doesn't break spacing. T̡̗͔̐̊ͭ̏͑̓ͯ̀͠H̹͇̺̄ͨ̿̐̅͊Ëͭ̂̆̇͗̄̚͏̰̤̜͕͈̮̲̭Ȳ̶̴̠͚͙̚̕ 13:10, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * You are entering a dangerous space, Rask... --  Sh @ dow / /  Haze  13:16, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Um, why are you getting a new account? It's really a pain in the ass for people to switch accounts as far as voting is concerned. Also, no you can't keep that sig. -- Toraen   confer  14:06, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm going to ask this as well. This is what, your 8th account? How long is this one going to last? Can you give us a reason not to tell you to fuck off back to your old account? A new misery  07:47, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I already talked to toraen about it on msn, you can shoot me an IM if you really want to know. I have my reasons. THEY 08:13, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Annoying 55hp pvxdecode problem
I have this build: [build prof=monk/necro bloodm=12 protec=12 soulreaping=3][Pain Inverter][spoil victor][Blood Renewal][Life Siphon][protective spirit][Shield of Absorption][Shielding Hands][balthazar's spirit][/build] The code generated from the previous build inserted into the next one produces: [build=OwQSQ4HTylqQzBtB1D3VrEyDA][/build] Which is wierd as fuck in my professional opinion. thoughts? <font face="Calibri" color=black>Chieftain Alex 23:13, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * It doesn't happen with Soothing and Soothing Memories sadly.-- Relyk 01:03, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't really see anything weird. Unless I'm missing something, it is using pve skills in the first, and pvp in the second. Perhaps it checks for pve skills, but defaults to pvp if none are found. Smitysmitehex.png <font color=black face="Lucida Blackletter">I smite thee <font color=black face="Lucida Blackletter">!!   on 01:11, April 4 2012 (UTC) 01:11, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Laughing so hard right now. +1 Relyk. THEY 01:12, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Smity you twit - first skill has changed from Pain Inverter to Pain - name is quite similar so possibly some kind of shorthand error in the database. <font face="Calibri" color=black>Chieftain Alex  09:57, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
 * This error of PvE versions of skills going to PvP versions is already noted on the curse noticeboard, but Pain Inverter turning into PvP Pain is new. -- Toraen   confer  13:45, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
 * >:( Smitysmitehex.png <font color=black face="Lucida Blackletter">I smite thee <font color=black face="Lucida Blackletter">!!  on 14:10, April 4 2012 (UTC) 14:10, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I think I have Soothing and Soothing Memories as backwards, happens with pve multi-word to pvp single-word but not vice versa. not checking that though.-- Relyk 06:36, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Quite right relyk, here you go:

[build prof=mesmer/ritualist][soothing images][soothing][soothing memories][/build] [build=OQhQM4A5Z0EAAAAAAAAA][/build]
 * <font face="Calibri" color=black>Chieftain Alex 11:05, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

If anyone wants to continue whining at me about votes
Please do so with the following in mind (taken from PvXwiki_talk:Build_Masters):

"People are calling for "build-oriented" sysops to take over what is essentially the BM position, and here is where we're going to disagree - that will simply take the current problem, give it a different name, and allow it to continue. My goal is to have the Sysop position be a merely janitorial one. Sysops can delete pages, block users for policy violations, and remove obviously biased/sockpuppet votes - that will be it. User squabbles over the latest shadow form farmer, stupid people rating a good build poorly, all that stuff will be left to the userbase to deal with. The entire point of a rating system is to allow people to rate builds. I understand that there are some incurably stupid people who play Guild Wars. It will be your (the community's) job to teach them not to suck. If they refuse to learn, it will be your (the community's) job to troll them off the site - staying within policy, obviously.

Sysops will be the neutral third party. They can have build knowledge, and it can help them remove some of the more obviously wrong votes - but the whole act of whining about votes on the noticeboard is basically going to stop. That shit isn't an admin's job. They don't get paid enough to babysit you guys. You, therefore, get to babysit each other, and the admins will give timeout to the kids who can't play nice. Any questions? - Auron 03:44, January 23, 2010 (UTC)"

I hope that clears up why I won't be removing votes based entirely on your opinions about a build. If it's clear that you did not read and understand this, I am flat-out not going to honor your vote removal request. -- Toraen   confer  08:42, 11 April 2012 (UTC) :> <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]   14:31, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I understand. It's just a shame there are people here with such a poor voting method. Thankfully it's a minority. ~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs 09:09, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Don't enable them bro! A new misery  09:38, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
 * @Misery: Hey if it happens again I'll just ban again. @Soi: Your poor reasoning (usually some form of circular logic) in these vote debates is part of the problem, so please improve on that if you want to be taken seriously. Also, classy parting shot there. -- Toraen   confer  10:18, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
 * You can read my detailed reasoning on Alex's rant page if you like. Jai's argument is much worse than mine, which is why he's having to resort to insults and cry home about the attention to the bad votes I'm giving. ~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs 10:23, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
 * cool story bro -- Jai .  -  11:40, April 11 2012 (UTC)
 * i'm confused. toraen said something about poor reasoning on your part and you reply with an ad hominem. the only point you're proving here is Toraen's. Danny 06:15, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
 * What I mean is that once you start removing votes, people get used to it as a thing that happens. I often look at votes and decide not to remove them because the reason for removing isn't strong enough. People probably mistake that for me not looking at stuff at all. Rask for example, was trash voting the build before he ever started talking about merges and guides and had reasoning outside of that as well. If all that is going to happen is that he removes the word guide and merge from his vote, you've wasted your time and people are going to come back to you asking you to remove his unfair zomg trashing the build even though it is still in good vote. A new misery  11:36, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
 * "If they refuse to learn, it will be your (the community's) job to troll them off the site - staying within policy, obviously."

I just think I brought up more arguments than all of those 5-5ers together, especially more than those whining people. --  Sh @ dow / /  Haze  16:44, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

I hate to continue this discussion further than it needs to be, but I'm a little annoyed that you removed two votes from the AP Ele build that had at least some semblance of reasoning (especially Rask's considering he had several points more than the one you removed the vote for), while you seem to have turned a blind eye to the multiple 5-5 votes that have no reasoning at all outside of "it's a great build." If you want me to be specific, DiogoALS, Skakid, AriaFrost, Supernick530, and FoolzPermaSwag all have no real reasoning behind their votes. -- Jai .  -  02:05, April 14 2012 (UTC)
 * Instead of whining about those higher votes (which aren't even all 5-5s that you mentioned) directly to me, talk to those users. I do not care if you don't want to or think it would be a waste of time. Also, just because they didn't post a wall of text in their vote does not mean they lack reasoning entirely.
 * I removed Rask and They's votes because I find that using votes to force merge issues improper (and I've specifically told Rask not to do it before, with the Me/A), not because Soi/etc. were butthurt about the numbers or reasoning. Beyond that, I don't care and expect them to revote (sans guide crap). -- Toraen   confer  03:22, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay, fine. -- Jai .  -  03:44, April 14 2012 (UTC)
 * aaaannnd, I'm back. -- Jai .  -  03:47, April 14 2012 (UTC)

Quick question
How hard would it be to change the options for moving a page? Currently the "Watch source page and target page" option seems to make you either watch both pages, or neither. It'd be nice to disentangle the two and have a box to watch the original, and a box to watch the new page. But if this were to take more than a few minutes of programming or otherwise minimal amount of effot, then you can disregard the whole idea. -- Jai .  -  18:31, April 15 2012 (UTC)
 * That's not handled through anything I can access so I have no idea. -- Toraen   confer  19:10, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * given that it's part of the core MW software it's not getting touched (it's perfectly possible (somehow), just not being done). Otherwise it becomes a massive pain when upgrades occur because it means re-making the change and making sure it works (and it's bad enough having to check our own stuff, believe me). <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  22:13, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * That's what I was afraid of. Yeah, it's not really a big deal, I was just wondering if it might be an easy fix. It's obviously not, though. :P But thanks for letting know. -- Jai .  -  23:22, April 15 2012 (UTC)
 * I've not looked but I imagine it'd be an easy fix. It'd just be a maintenance nightmare. <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  15:46, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Bed Time
Gnight dood. 03:21, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Sweet dreams. -- Toraen   confer  03:23, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

your vote here
is lacking sufficient reasoning. <3 Danny 05:56, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Gonna have to convince me my views are wrong to change my vote. Reasoning is present. -- Toraen   confer  12:16, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * This build isn't interupt oriented, it's meant to apply party wide pressure, so your reasoning doesn't really make very much sense. This isn't meant so solo the enemy team, it's to put enough degen on everyone so that your team can push kills. That's my two cents atleast. [[Image:They.jpg|36px|link=User:They]] 12:29, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Every ranger bar is interrupt oriented, it's 1/4 of the bar. Toraen believes this one just does it worse because you are constantly spamming poison shot. It's a perfectly valid complaint unless you are claiming that spamming poison shot does not affect your ability to interrupt. A new misery  12:58, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * You could say that patient spirit is 1/8th of a monk healing bar, it doesn't mean you can't heal without it. He voted good, I'm not trying to get him to change his vote, I'm just adding constructive criticism. [[Image:They.jpg|36px|link=User:They]] 13:04, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Your analogy is terrible. I'm not saying that 1/4 of the bar is interrupts and without them you couldn't interrupt, I'm saying 1/4 of the bar is interrupts, so clearly interrupting is part of the plan. Usually 1/2 of a healing monk's bar is healing skills. If you put spammable damage like Poison Shot on it, I'm pretty sure you would say that either Poison Shot is useless or the monk would not be able to heal due to spamming Poison Shot. You know They, you might have better luck trying to convince people of shit if you actually addressed their arguments instead of spouting random shit that had nothing to do with them ^_________^ A new misery  13:29, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * While being able to spam 7 degen on everyone you look at is pretty cool in RA, I feel that losing interrupt potential hurts overall, given that's the main draw to using a ranger. No other vetted ranger reduces its own interrupt potential like the PA build does. Given my current issues with the build and that the reason for giving it 5-5 relies on "lolRA", I believe I'm justified in calling it a Good build rather than a Great one. -- Toraen   confer  13:34, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * according to the logic in my bot, i only used it if i tabbed to someone and they weren't using a skill. now, i'd use slightly different logic, including a check for conditions and a constant check for Rez Sig, but point stands. if an AHK tab-based bot can farm like 50 glad per day in RA, the build is obviously the best build ever. Danny 04:08, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
 * ITT: Build should be voted higher because bots run it better than people. A new misery  07:53, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Aren't all ranger builds going to be spreading degen? Am I missing something, because poison arrow does the same spreading job that all rangers do, it is just better at it? Smitysmitehex.png <font color=black face="Lucida Blackletter">Smity Smitington <font color=black face="Lucida Blackletter">!!   on 18:31, April 20 2012 (UTC) 18:31, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * That isn't what we were arguing about. We were debating whether or not the fact that Poison Arrow reduces interrupt opportunities is a valid reason to vote lower. You get bleeding on top of the poison as the trade off, and I feel that it's not the best trade to make. I didn't trash vote though, because I do think Poison+Bleed on everyone is pretty good pressure in RA and it's not like you're completely unable to interrupt just because PA is on the bar. -- Toraen   confer  02:11, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I guess my question is, do you actually spend more time spreading degen with poison arrow than you normally do with just apply poison? Smitysmitehex.png <font color=black face="Lucida Blackletter">Smity Smitington <font color=black face="Lucida Blackletter">!!  on 05:46, April 21 2012 (UTC) 05:46, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Not really more time spreading degen, it's more that you can't also use that time to interrupt/etc. because PA takes a full attack to fire. You can't cancel an attack skill (unless you weaponswap from your inventory but that's really clunky in practice) so that means less time to do other things even though you aren't really taking more time to spread degen. -- Toraen   confer  15:59, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I guess I never realized you couldn't cancel an attack skill. Seems like good reasoning to me. Smitysmitehex.png <font color=black face="Lucida Blackletter">Smity Smitington <font color=black face="Lucida Blackletter">!!   on 23:51, April 22 2012 (UTC)

Msn please

 * D [[Image:They.jpg|36px|link=User:They]] 22:27, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Heads up
I've noticed some quoting of this recently (aside from when I've linked it) and, while I'm happy it's getting exposure, I'd like to remind everyone that it is not an official policy or guideline on PvX and is merely my observations of what the community deems acceptable. I've been here for a while and I think I have a good grasp on that, but it's still subject to change. -- Toraen   confer  15:37, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Hey you.
Friends forever? 15:10, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

What Meta means in PvE
I'd say there are two categories of Meta builds in PvE; the generic hero teams and whatever pugs want in their party for full-human exploration. They usually want subpar tank and spank, though, so the real meta is generally ignored until it becomes effective (never). ~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs 05:48, 20 April 2012 (UTC) mean? Most of that sentence consists of weasel words.-- Relyk 07:30, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I remember writing a paragraph before on Build Standards. We don't have a policy for PvE meta, the meta tag is a tool for MCs to keep the PvP meta up to date. People shouldn't being using the meta tags for PvE for that reason, but it's fighting a losing battle when we have a PvE metagame. And what does "They usually want subpar tank and spank, though, so the real meta is generally ignored until it becomes effective"
 * Defy Pain loltanks are considered super effective in general PvE to the average pug, yet we haven't stored a defy build because even an optimal defy tank build can be optimised further by removing that elite. One example of, well, several. Weasel words? ~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs 07:55, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * You know, this whole "We don't store bad meta" thing is a misnomer. If we are storing meta we are storing meta, bad or good. HA fame farms are terrible builds, but they become meta. PvE community needs to sort its shit and decide what they want instead of trying to have it both ways. A new misery  08:01, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Iirc; to be stored, it must go through the rating phase and not be recognised as trash before labeling the build Meta. I guess you can scrap that rule, but I don't want to promote that kind of play in PvE... ~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs 08:19, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * No, that isn't how the meta tag works ^___________^ A new misery  08:24, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * We don't have a PvE meta policy; see the problem if someone deems a PvE build meta prematurely with no PvE admins? We have been good about tagging pve meta!-- Relyk 08:39, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * "Builds that are not HA/GvG can only be tagged as "Meta" if it passes vetting with a rating of "Good" or "Great", and are clearly commonly run. Such a build should be easily verified by going to the appropriate location and observing what builds are run." Or... Does this not apply to PvE? I was under the impression it did. ~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs 08:50, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * See, this exactly the point. It's really a GvG/HA thing. If you want to use it in PvE/RA/Whatever properly you have to work out what the hell that actually means. That is why that clause exists, because it is way harder to define a PvE/RA/FA meta. A new misery  08:54, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * RA and FA are not really that difficult to figure. Someone addicted to it can def say what build is run often by teammates or opponents --  Sh @ dow / /  Haze  11:18, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

extension stuff
Leave a message on my page on Monday as a reminder and I'll sync it up (I keep forgetting to do it, apologies). I'll see if I can get Tim to set you up with access as well, so you don't have to relay on me syncing it up. <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  16:33, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Its Chonsy here
New account, pls perma for the old one. If you want a reason, its because the old name was just a placeholder. Silent 16:07, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
 * You voted on shit today and yesterday and now you want to change your name? Do you realise how much of a pain in the ass this is? Name changes are not supposed to be some commonplace thing. A new misery  20:43, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
 * It's a trend --  Sh @ dow / /  Haze  20:53, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
 * How's about you stop pampering that raskpancake guy then? :) Dzjudz sig.png <font color="#47d1de">talk 21:19, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
 * ^. When Rask said "I have my reasons", then Moonite changed his name to Them, it was clearly just for trolling purposes zzz. But Chonsy should always be Chonsy. It sounds like him, if you know what I mean. ~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs 21:22, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually I changed it to match my guild wars 2 id, but way to be an assuming asshole. [[Image:They.jpg|36px|link=User:They]] 21:54, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I try my best. Though, this isn't pvx2, so.... ^_^~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs 22:01, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
 * There isn't going to be a pvx2. [[Image:They.jpg|36px|link=User:They]] 22:10, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, in case you didn't notice I pretty much said "What the fuck?" every single time this has happened, but some other admin did the deed ^_________________^ A new misery  06:09, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Misery I love you to death, mostly because you complain about violations but never really enforce them with bans, also are you getting gw2? ^____^ [[Image:They.jpg|36px|link=User:They]] 07:22, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Hey bro, I'm not going to wheel war with other admins if they want to be bad. In case anyone is interested, I think we should permanently ban all the new socks before they vote and people should at the very least ask if they can make a new account BEFORE making the new one. Then they should have a pretty damn good reason better than "I didn't like my name" and manually go and remove all their old votes themselves. At the moment Silent is socking, an offence that should result in a permanent ban, but because of past decisions I can totally see how he thought what he has done is appropriate. As for GW2, I dunno. Do I even play games? A new misery  07:53, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
 * don't you play lol? i don't know. i installed it, but i've never logged in. Danny 18:38, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Feel free to not cancel the votes, I wont vote on builds Ive already voted on. However I changed my account for the same reason of Rask. And I wont change account anymore. Silent  ( Chonsy )  15:33, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

...So, no one said no to him then? I can't find either an approval or rejection of this name change anywhere, but it seems like all the other admins are letting him keep the new name. If so, why hasn't his old account been perma'd yet? -- Toraen   confer  15:26, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I haven't because it is dumb, but there is precedent. No one else has because he just asked you, so I guess no one else saw it. A new misery  15:36, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Who would have thought my previous stupid decisions would come back to haunt me? Regardless of precedent though, I'm personally not going to be approving any name changes in the future due to aforementioned bad decisions. Phen should take my badge if I ever do. -- Toraen   confer  15:51, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

I understand that it may be difficult to change accounts for you, but try to understand, Ive been wandering for almost one year about my IGN for GW2, and this site is very fun so that I couldnt resist it, and I did the account with the first nickname I got. As for the votes, I canceled myself most of them, and Im going to replace them with my new account's votes. I did this because I want you to understand that this is very important for me. Silent  15:49, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
 * One thing you could do that would probably help your situation a lot would be to go into My Ratings (up at the top next to your watchlist and contribs) on Chonsy and delete all of your ratings. From what I've seen, aside from the annoying confusion inherent to a new name, the main thing reason why name changes are discouraged is because of voting issues. Deleting all of your ratings on your previous account would definitely make the situation less complicated. -- Jai .  -  16:05, May 8 2012 (UTC)
 * It's a case of why should we fix it if you're likely to go and change your name again? I mean you've changed it once and we sorted it, so why wouldn't we do it a second, or third, or fourth time...?
 * Plus it's just generally annoying when people change their names. It leads to confusion. <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  16:20, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes I noticed, I tried to fix it putting ( Chonsy ) near my new account's name. I understand what you mean with another change name, but If i ever change name again it must be for a very good reason. Silent  16:47, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
 * You'll forgive me, but I find your existing reason poor as is, given this is a GW1 builds wiki, and you're saying you changed your name based on GW2.... <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  16:50, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, but my name has always been Silent. Im known as Silent in gw1, although I rarely used that char. But now that I fell in love with rangers again, and as I am called Silent and I like my name, I started calling every char Silent Iz/Luvz/etc. Silent   16:54, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Notice how we still call They Rask? You're still Chonsy. Too bad you didn't want to change your name to "This" or "That" to fit new naming convention. ~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs 18:14, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
 * We should discourage changing names to match identities on gw2 unless they use the same convention on gw1. I don't have a problem addressing chonsy as Silent, "chonsy" was only here a month or so before the GW2 beta. Rask on the other hand...-- Relyk 19:33, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Chonsey has been editing since mid January. <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  20:03, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Except ~4 months is like 3 weeks or something in PvX time, since it's been so slow for so long and nothing has changed in that whole period. Not to mention the majority of stuff discussed nowadays is on trash builds and those are obviously deleted, so little has actually been done at this point. -- Jai .  -  20:08, May 8 2012 (UTC)
 * I was being generous phen :P chonsy wasn't as active at the start.-- Relyk 20:27, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Yep thats because this site is so awsm. However Ive joined on the last days of January but at the beginning I just posted some PvE builds, got them trashed because I know nothing about PvE and then in February and March I just hanged around doing nothing because there was nothing on the wiki. However you can still call me Chonsy. I call They Rask because I found the way fucking stupid in some way saying something like "They is" or "They keeps trolling people" seems like a grammar fail to me. However we call Moonite Them. Silent   12:00, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

However this is not the main problem. Silent  19:15, 10 May 2012 (UTC)