User:Malokai92/Wiki Drama/N/W PvE Hundred Blades Meleemancer

[build prof=N/W Swordsmanship=12 Curses=12+1+1 Soul=3+1][Hundred Blades][Whirlwind Attack][Sun and Moon Slash][Mark of Pain][Optional][Frenzy][Air of Superiority][Optional][/build]
 * Player build

Talk page starts below this line.

What's the big deal about being able to cast MoP yourself? I guess I can see that a player can exploit Air of Superiority, but it is not that reliable of a skill recharger. Melee shouldn't be casting spells, they are gonna get interrupted. Any/W seems like it would be better since you aren't getting any benefit from running Necro over another class seeing as how a hero can easily provide MoP (and such would probably be better). Also, this completely sucks unless you ball every mob (terrible c-spacing here). Caster daggers was much more flexible.Smity Smitington 04:58, 11 October 2011 (UTC)


 * oshit man, I know all necs run this in secret in DoA, but you're not meant to slap it into pvx for a whacking. -- [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] Chieftain  Alex  06:37, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Toraen; I would have hoped you of all people would have noticed the lack of 7H parties with necro heroes with the capability of running 16 Curses. They have been pushed out of the way by dual mes, dual rits and healers. Also, we all know how bad heroes are at placing AoE hexes (see: Panic, Mark of Pain). @Smithy; consider the rest of the party to clear up the dregs, while you blow up mobs with MoP/100b/Splinter/WWA. You are also buffed with SoH and you may choose to take EBSoH; that's not pitiful single-target damage, even though I say so myself. Ӎiñon  08:00, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Smity; did you ever try casting MoP as a nec on a foe? I mean, either it rupts you or it doesn't. Why would you cast at melee range? Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 08:11, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * So what, I am supposed to cast, ball, then attack a few times to build adrenalin, then cast hb and whirlwind? Pshh, by that time they would have been dead with a non autist build. Smity Smitington 08:25, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * It's very possible to run a necro hero with 16 curses, even if it's not one of the mainbars on a vetted hero team (and this occurred because of 'effort in PvE' attitudes). If you want it and are willing to set up the spike there's little stopping you from dropping a less important hero for it or just bumping up curses on an N/Rt. Also if you're setting up such a spike, you can call the middle target and your heroes spam all their hexes on it. Don't even need to bind a key to your hero's MoP. Also, I now decree that caster melee is an assumed variant for all player melee builds on PvX, for those brave enough to run it. No need for a separate page for them because their primary contributes nothing to the build. --  Toraen   talk  17:32, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I played enough with the triple nec bars to know that MoP is cast almost on arrival without calling, and you wouldn't find a preferred target instantly or have a good ball. You need to realise how much more control you get from having the curses on your own bar, and with SoH and ebsoh on your own bar you've got good single-target DPS. @Smity; you charge adren by slotting Dark Fury on your Minion Bomber (+5blood or 4+1) and Frenzy. You *can* take FGJ but I have deemed it unnecessary. This is just another hybrid caster, and deserves it's own page on it's compressed merits for 7H aggro management and SY spam to keep the party alive and keep aggro on yourself. Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 19:46, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * If you don't ball before letting the hero cast MoP, then yeah, that will happen. You can either lure such that the mob ends up corner/wallblocked before letting the necro (+other spike heroes) in range, or just disable MoP and bind it to some convenient key next to your spike skills. MoP isn't a huge cast time investment, but I'm not seeing why we need a build with it mainbarred on a melee player (and one that is just a different profession dupe of the 100B Warrior) when it's pretty easy to just let a hero who's already doing curses hold it. --  Toraen   talk  20:22, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Necros in PvE who aren't warriors, the ability to bodyblock/cornerblock and more controlled AoE damage, while also providing SY support to the team. A necromancer has space for MoP, attributes and energy. There is no point wasting points on a Curses hero or melee 100b hero if you have 1. Air of Superiority, to recharge MoP faster, Whirlwind Attack to trigger MoP faster and the fact that MoP is the only useful hex on a hero.  Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 20:31, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * What might be interesting is a caster melee guide. Although I think some caster professions do contribute to melee, such as SS rits and demonic flesh dagger spam. Smity Smitington 17:39, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * And actually it would probably be more accurate to judge caster melee builds by how effective they are compared to casting bars available to the profession, not in comparison to how effective they are compared to a non-caster. Smity Smitington 17:55, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

On the horrible caster dagger discussion, i stated more than once that this would be a much better option for swinging casters, because of the obvious reasons (ene management, shield, SY, better mops, etc), but sticking mop and barbs and whatever in the player build is a no no... if u have the need to grow adren and blow them up, ur not stoping to cast... stop playing like kids... otherwise i'll post my cripslash/searing heat build for warriors... ull love it!! 83.240.216.204 10:29, 11 October 2011 (UTC) enormous

So
What's the whole point with running Frenzy over Flurry? -- DANDY ^_^ -- 15:11, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * its PvE, you're going to have protective spirit on you when it matters. and its more manly? <3 [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] Chieftain   Alex  16:48, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I do like this whole new concept of making single-player builds which assume you take certain skills on other characters! -- DANDY ^_^ -- 17:20, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * It's the new meta, team builds are outdated. Such are the times we live in.-- Relyk 18:14, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * @Dandy; You can expect to see SoH, Splinter, heals, PS and Aegis on any bar (which has a melee). Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 19:33, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Toraen's rating and others who copypasta
I think that reasoning of taking MoP on a hero is unjustified; as previously discussed, it has it's merits. Can you change your reasoning/rating? Thanks. Ӎiñon  02:01, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * there is just so much wrong with it that I think people don't want to even try to list it all since it would be too time consuming when it is already understood that the build is just not good. Therefore, listing one reason why it is bad should suffice. Smity Smitington 02:22, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Here's the problem: that's not the case. I think you're sore for Caster Daggers not being vetted, but this is much different as it's actually useful for a caster.  Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 03:28, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * there. also, remember the e/r build? same situation. just take a deep sigh and save the build to your userpage. I feel like people only want the prestige to have "put that great build on pvx" its just a guideline site, no point in arguing. :P if people dont like it, w/e. world most likely will continue spinning. unless people vote that it will stop spinning obv, or so people seem to think. there. another metaphor. 6 month hiatus go.  Akio _Ka  t  suragi   Akio_Katsuragi_Sig2.jpg 03:30, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * "there. also, remember the e/r build? same situation. just take a deep sigh and save the build to your userpage. I feel like people only want the prestige to have "put that great build on pvx" its just a guideline site, no point in arguing. :P"

the problem with persuading people is emotion does not constitute a proper way to sway judgement. :/ the use of things such as"i feel", "i believe", etc, shows your disregard for any attempt to persuade the masses of a site.. on the internet. yes emotion can sway people. but "jesus exists because i can feel his divine powers all around each and every human being." wont prove anything. now if you have books of data. a picture of jesus doing a thumbs up over 99.5% of the worldly population. and jesus on the court bench, odds are you a have decent argument on your hands. (i'm baptist btw. i just know how to be opened minded and not offended easily)unless you can show that meleemancer is toe to toe with a warrior primary or w/e with non master of damage statistics and a signed letter from the developing team saying they designed the necro to use a hb build with mop on its own bar to be better than say, again, a warrior primary, or even with mop on a hero. you might have a decent argument. but as a foundation.. "i feel" isn't where to start.. facts and data make arguments. or at least proper ones. Vincent Evan [Air Henchman]   04:17, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * That is exactly what many people on PvX only want because, to put it as Danny said, they are testosterone-depraived autists. Vincent Evan [Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 03:34, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I know, if you submit a build you believe works, who cares if its vetted down? it doesnt fucking matter. i've submitted 2 builds iirc, both shot down. use what you want regardless of the rating. if your playing as a w/mo prot for your team and you somehow are successful in hm. do it. at 2.0 vote wont lock gw up if you run it... its a joke how people get so upset people dont agree with them on something as low a rating of importance as gw in their lives. (i hope its not the most important thing dear god...)just take it in stride that other actually do disagree and pout in your computer chair.. sigh.  Akio _Ka  t  suragi   Akio_Katsuragi_Sig2.jpg 03:41, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * That's not what I am trying to argue. I'm trying to state that getting a build posted on PvX is the only thing of importance to people rather than keeping the quality control at a standard. If you compromise shit for your own gain knowingly, then you are sad. If you do it unknowingly and fail to realize what's wrong, you are bad. Vincent Evan [Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 03:45, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I've listed detailed reasons as to why I think this is trash so you have no reason to accuse me of ulterior motives. It's not like this build couldn't work, but there is really no reason to go through the trouble of trying to pull this off with a 60AL character (with no armor buffs) using frenzy when there is really no good reason to do a manly spike in the first place.  Caster spike would be much safer and just as powerful and has none of the draw backs of being depended on enchantments and unaffected by hex removal.  Assuming you want to center your team around pulling this off, I think it would be very feasible to have a curses necro provide MoP as you wouldn't need the typical heroes so that you can actually spike quickly by not having to cast yourself and also insta-charge whirlwind attack with "to the limit!".  It is a fragile build that is just not universal enough or necessary.  I keep comparing this to caster daggers because it is a much safer and more universal option for casters moving to the front line as it has more powerful defenses through no frenzy and armor buffs like "I am unstoppable!", isn't dependent on hexes, and shines in all situations whether it be spiking a well balled mob or c-spacing like there is no tomorrow.  Honestly, I would give this build a better rating if it didn't provide the hexes itself and instead invested in tactics for a shield and to the limit, but in reality sword is probably the least optimal melee weapon for a caster. Smity Smitington 03:49, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * It's an already-working bar I feel deserves it's space on this site, which documents working and used gw builds. This is the point and why you discuss.  Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 03:50, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * As much as one may feel that a certain may belong in it's proper category, builds here a vetted through a community based fair consensus. Should such possible problems arise that may obstruct the real vetting policy, one is always allowed to bring it up to the proper authorities of this site and ask them to review the votes of the build to see if there is the possibility of false votes, and/or people with ulterior motives. If you feel this may be a problem, go ahead and ask the admins. But from what I can tell, you won't get far. But of course, if I take the neutral route in this situation, I guess I am just as guilty for being too shortsighted to see your mega-awesome game changing build, right? Vincent Evan [Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 03:55, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Tormentor's/Blessed say hi. Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 03:57, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I didn't say it was gamechanging, did I? I didn't say LOLMYBUILDROXUR0; you're being childish. Really... And no real reasons have been given that haven't been debated as wrong or a real reason, (see: Toraen's/Jai's vote)  Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 03:59, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I am not being childish. In all fairness, if you believe there is a flaw in the vetting process of this build, take it up to the Admin noticeboard. If they believe you have been wronged, I will review my vote for possible change. Vincent Evan [Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 04:02, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Way to ignore every other point I made? Also, frenzy says hi? "And no real reasons..."  seriously man did you not read any thing I said??? Smity Smitington 04:01, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure I mentioned PS. And this whole thing about assuming skills on a hero bar? You have 64 skills over 8 characters, you're not going to bring 8 elite skills on one character, are you? Are all casters bad if they have no cond removal or hex removal because daze or backfire or arcane conundrum or frustration? melee builds all suck if they don't have hex/cond removal too, I guess. That's the worst point you've made. It's very safe to assume prots are on your team. Some even use Shelter, which I haven't even assumed, but PS is used everywhere.  Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 04:06, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * No, the point is that the entire build is centered around one hex that can easily be removed. And sure you can prot yourself but prots can get removed, it might work in some places but it is just not universal enough or safe enough for a vetted build.  Compare to a necro with 16 armor shield and I am unstoppable and blessed sigs for a total of 110 armor with this at 78. Smity Smitington 04:12, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * wouldn't you only get the +10 on said armor piece? iirc its not addictive across the board. so... 5 +10's are 70 al. and +8/16 depending on shield req. but maybe i misunderstood your comment. jw. updated. darn you smitty.  Akio _Ka  t  suragi   Akio_Katsuragi_Sig2.jpg 04:18, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * @vincent. potato potato lol
 * @ Ӎiñon .thats the problem "It's an already-working bar I feel deserves it's space on this site."
 * @every other 1000 posts that interrupted mine, haven't read yet.  Akio _Ka  t  suragi   Akio_Katsuragi_Sig2.jpg 04:11, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * "It's not like this build couldn't work, but there is really no reason to go through the trouble of trying to pull this off with a 60AL character (with no armor buffs) using frenzy when there is really no good reason to do a manly spike in the first place. Caster spike would be much safer and just as powerful and has none of the draw backs of being depended on enchantments and unaffected by hex removal. Assuming you want to center your team around pulling this off, I think it would be very feasible to have a curses necro provide MoP as you wouldn't need the typical heroes so that you can actually spike quickly by not having to cast yourself and also insta-charge whirlwind attack with "to the limit!". It is a fragile build that is just not universal enough or necessary."
 * Seems like a legitimate point he has made. I like to point out there has yet to be any logical proof from you understanding how PvX builds work. Dandy's point is one that is clear. For a target with 60AR, why bring frenzy? Double damage (-40 essentially) on a character with lower armor than the primary profession who uses it. We can't assume one can bring Protective Spirit because it's in the very nature of creating a double standard for builds that are put on PvX. Those that conditionally work with outside skills and one's that don't. All other builds that are categorized on PvX can work on its own. For something like this, saying "Oh, we can assume that all players run standard hero bars" is completely illogical. Do the research of the demographics and show me those who do and don't run those. If you cannot, make an excuse, or try to formulate around this, then I will disregard it and will only prove myself (and smity's vote,) right. His second sentence only justifies his points that are logical. There is nothing wrong with this. You're dependent on PS as you said earlier from Dandy's comment. There is also hex removal in the PvE settings as well. For a singular hexes such as Barbs and MoP, you are already at a disposition to fail relative to other caster spikes. Why can't you free this slot with a necro who can bring barbs and mop? The only justification he really gives you is the hypothetical scenario of how this could be better, which isn't saying that much. He has this summed up well. "It is a fragile build that is just not universal enough or necessary."
 * It works, with Frenzy or not, it's just an IAS. If it really helps, you can pretend it's Flurry or Drunken Master but it works with Frenzy as well as any other. Builds aren't supposed to work on their own in a team game, though, and the meta for Minion Bombers has been for years. You do not rely on PS. You have Tormentor's and a shield, so that's about 78AL, not far off from a warrior if you then take IaU or Dwarven Armour, but here's the thing; you don't need any of those extra skills.  Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 04:25, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * It's just an IAS. Well of course, but there are other IASes out there. When one such as this, that deals double damage, you cn apply that excuse that it's just an IAS. I see it mainbarred, and will treat it such. Also, the difference between your build, and a minion bomber, is that a hero can run the bomber efficiently, while this is questionable (judging by the votes) below-average build. Essentially comparing apples to oranges. That won't work here, excluded. Also, congrats, but still, -40 armor is still applicable. Would you bring frenzy on assassin? I'm glad you understand what armor runes are, many people use them. His vote still stands by it's principals. Admin Noticeboard that shit if you think it's wrong. Other than that, I believe he will keep it the way it is. Vincent Evan [Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 04:32, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * just isn't worth it to go all that trouble to do something a warrior can do better, without any insignias/runes. dropping 100k so your prelude can go toe to toe with a ferrari? or just buying the ferrari and dropping 100k into it. i'll take the ferrari.  Akio _Ka  t  suragi   Akio_Katsuragi_Sig2.jpg 04:29, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * It's already been stated there should be no bias towards x profession in PvE because you can't expect people to create a new character or assume they already have a warrior. This is primarily a 7H bar. It was successful even in h/h, less skills and micro.  Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 04:37, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * But having that being said, that doesn't mean a lack of melee casters builds should be made to compensate for said lack of builds. If it's truly effective as bar, then it will be treated as such. However, this build doesn't not fit this category. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 04:42, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

The issue at hand...
Yah sure it might be fun and uber cooooool, and heck it might even be great for you and some others, but it is subpar to other caster spike builds. You could go RoJ or FoC spikeway and still do tank n spank or whatever you do with this, and then you're being in backfield doing what you're designed too. The majority of players(myself included) cringe when seeing such things as: casters playing frontline, frontline playing backline, and builds that just don't have any synergy(which are very common for some reason..synergy is hard i guess?). While you have good players watching the wiki, which might end soon at current rate, those types of builds will not be passed. Stop trying to, it won't happen and only causes drama. If your goal on the other hand is just to increase energy on site, Good Job. Roland 04:40, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * @Minion But having that being said, that doesn't mean a lack of melee casters builds should be made to compensate for said lack of builds. If it's truly effective as bar, then it will be treated as such. However, this build doesn't not fit this category. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 04:42, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * | I agree that I am 18 years or older. 0:30  Akio _Ka  t  suragi   Akio_Katsuragi_Sig2.jpg 04:48, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * If a vote is reached and its clear everyones' votes are within reason (if you remove jai's its still below 3.5 i'm pretty sure) there is no use arguing the matter. if the community consensus is 3.4444443, that's about the end of it. everyone has a valid point. bar jai.  Akio _Ka  t  suragi   Akio_Katsuragi_Sig2.jpg 04:55, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * If votes are within reason, you would agree there would have been no need for this discussion by Excluded, correct? If so, then why was there a discussion in the first place? Because Excluded thinks they are wrong. Therefore, he needs to step up to fix it otherwise he lost this. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 04:59, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * On that note, I think it's a good time for me to finish off by saying that Excluded has yet to bring this up with anybody to fix the votes he deems unfit. If they surely are and if he rightfully believes so, shouldn't he have them fixed by means of policy? Or will there be attempts of trolling, low-lived whining, or illogical tangents that would have me personally fix my vote? My time has been productively spent directing this argument in the correct direction. I only wish to see that the author will attempt by the correct method to see if he can get his way. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 05:04, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Asked Toraen twice and Jai once. Neither have taken notice.  Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 05:09, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * @vincent, no kidding right?
 * @minion, its 12:13 cst. i can only imagine we're the only ones awake or interested in this site. i'm only here to avoid my statistics review. which is disdainfully in the next tab. this is far more entertaining. realistically, jai's is the only vote that lacks substance. toraens' is totally valid for saying why a build should not be saved on the site. if you remove both votes or even put them at 4... its still below 3.5 3.75. in fact if they are put to 5's. its still only up to a 3.08. what are you really wanting here. glory? just forget this, save to userpage, and move on to another idea. your wasting time..  Akio _Ka  t  suragi   Akio_Katsuragi_Sig2.jpg 05:17, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't quite see why you instantly think: guy defend build he uploaded to pvx= must be gloryseeking. I'd have to create my own build to do that! and maybe I can call it minionway or foreverexcludedway?


 * People who's rating need changing/removing due to too low a rating that does not convey what they are saying and/or poor reasoning: Toraen, Smity, Jai, SFS, Vincent, Kracatoan and Akio's.


 * The issues I am seeing are:


 * 1. Relying on team skills are bad and against policy.
 * 2. Why are you running a caster on frontline?
 * 3. Why not run full melee and run MoP on a hero?
 * 4. Enchant and Hex strips will kill you/weaken your build.


 * 1a.You rely on team skills because it's a team game, and to presume you won't have OP hexes from mesmers (at least one) or not have the most common protection spell on one team mate, is absurd. Of course you will have PS, whether it's on your MB or not, you will fail any meaningful PvE without it.


 * 2a. Because of your backline, you can afford to. You take Save Yourselves and therefore focus more damage onto yourself, while all the heals are focused on you too. Less armour is not an issue when you have a 10% damage cap.


 * 3a. There's no point not taking MoP when you have spare attributes and a hex which increases your damage infinitely. Isn't it, well, all of you who say you can't assume x skill? Well 100b without MoP is terrible. There is rarely a curses nec in a team, and slotting MoP on a hero isn't the best answer when you really need it.


 * 4. Enchant strips and hex strips occur everywhere and harm more builds than just this one. Any AP builds and ER, for a start. This really isn't an issue.
 * Enjoy your exam.  Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 05:25, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * ... so a vote that is low. is wrong? lol, spanish inquisition in this bitch. toraen and krac have the same point, that explain their resoning. jai's obv doesn't. idr the other votes b/c cba. and seriously? mine needs a change? i gave a 2 out of lazyness to go lower and you want a change of my vote? lol. i explained my vote. do you know the vetting policy??? lol. just because someone is upset at a low vote doesn't constitute a vote wipe or change. please read this, as you obviously haven't. a vote below 5 isn't a wrong vote. if they provide reasoning that is relevant to the build and its use, it's a valid vote. again, jai's is the only vote that by policy isn't correct. in fact. PvX:Policy would do you some good if your bored. please help the site by reviewing a few of the mentioned links. please. realistically the 0's could be changed but that wouldn't effect the overall score enough. seriously enormous. you have to have something better than this, let it go. i'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. as a heads up, if you read the vetting policy, you'd know that your 1st "issue" is a valid one. i don't expect a reply for awhile. fuck statistics, prof sucks.  Akio _Ka  t  suragi   Akio_Katsuragi_Sig2.jpg 05:39, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * @minion, I agree that it is pretty bad to argue that you shouldn't depend on your team bringing other skills, I mean, lolz... like you said, it is a team game (and you get to customize your hero's bars)... And yea my vote was probably to low I mainly did it to piss you off because I thought you were ignoring me.  But, my reasoning for this being trash still hasn't changed. Smity Smitington 06:05, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * are you his girlfriend or something?-- Relyk 06:19, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * tits or gtfo. srry if you've pm'd me. was making a me page lol. had to upload things. oh! upload the screen shots from my rant about statics. i want those at the bottom of my me page. yes yes. so i can read them. blur names that could be offended. like lvl ups and what not on your end.  Akio _Ka  t  suragi   Akio_Katsuragi_Sig2.jpg 06:20, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * lol, he just doesn't do romantic things for me or buy me nice things anymore! Smity Smitington 06:30, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

but we digress. ask the admins to fix w/e you think is a problem, if they tell us to change our votes, sure, i'll even add another paragraph. regardless, low vote doesn't mean bad vote if as long as what you put shows why you gave it that score. by the words of one of my profs last semester. "I don't care how long your essays are as long as you fulfil the requirement. If you can get to the point and do everything in a page, fine. If it takes you 15, that's fine to." Morgan, 2011.  Akio _Ka  t  suragi    06:35, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * enormous would beg to differ. It's all about as many words as possible to say as little as possible.  If you divide the number of words in your arguement by the number of good points you made you should be shooting for undefined (to help you with your math). Smity Smitington 06:38, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * ÷ 0 wut? laughed my ass off as i started plugging in variables from your statement.  Akio _Ka  t  suragi   Akio_Katsuragi_Sig2.jpg 06:43, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * perhaps you should deviate from wiki and standardize your knowledge of statistics, aka go do some standard deviations....Smity Smitington 06:47, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * test is over... probability, discrete probability distributions, and the normal probability distribution. just lost my internet boner.  Akio _Ka  t  suragi   Akio_Katsuragi_Sig2.jpg 06:51, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * now you can go start a political or religious debate in kamadan dist 1 IN ALL CAPS, aka extenz for gw players! Smity Smitington 06:53, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

enormous would beg to differ... Why, smity, why? if u could only grasp the immense satisfaction i get from writing my essays... see, the point is that the VAST MAJORITY of you guys are butthurt when ur stuff goes down, and that makes me lol and troll, its idiotic ur attachment to those builds, i dont have that kind of love for my partner and she sucks me off, let alone builds... if i ever submit a build and it got down voted,i could not care less... as for me making long edits, most of u guys dont really add up to me as being good players, the builds submited show that, and sometimes i take a long time trying to xplain my point of view to what seems to me bad playas...examples? -> in caster daggers AP was mentioned, and someone said " it has low dps, compared to dagger spam",(aegis dok) now does this guy knows what he is saying, or what AP does? no, he does not...-> "evas is bad coz no ims and after target dies u cannot control where he is going" (jaigoda), tell me, does he know what he is talking about? no, evas has inbuilt ims (it shadowsteps to target) and after target dies, ull have another evas, so i come u dont have control over it?!-> " u put mop on player bar coz ull have better control on targeting and also heroes will use it on random target" (minon), does he know what microing CRITICAL skill is?! no, he does not, he prefers to micro skills like syfon on rits with 7 maintaned SoH's and micro locusts heros in the frontline... these are some examples, there are a lot more, recently i was going trough relik Rage page, and in the 4 horsemen quest (NM), minion asked relik if he was using muddy terrain (does he know that only in HM mobs get increased ims?!) no, he does not, otherwise that would never had been spoken of... ppl that dont know what fast cast does in pve, ppl dat have no idea what is player control of the situation (lazy playas wont ball, lazy playas will need caster daggers and the like), i see minion masters with st rits with shelter, i see player bars in pve that are suport roles (Huh, heroes anyone?!), i see ppl ranting at other players using ER, saying its bad (lol, a good human ER can take a hero setup with only 1 healer, an hibrid, and rickroll pve), i see AP (xcellent build, works anywhere) get trolled by ppl who have no idea what ap does (they seem to think AP is only played in disco set up, i play it with any setup, no need for necros there, and i easily get 3 evas out at same time), all of this i see, and also i see...glimmer pets!!! AHAHAH, sorry for dat, i had to mention it... this is another huge wall, but u asked for it... just be grateful that i normally dont vote, i largely prefer to discuss it in the talk page, its much funner... if i vote, i trash, mostly... 83.240.216.10 08:23, 13 October 2011 (UTC) enormous
 * I kinda stopped reading after the first couple sentences. It's funny that you think people who enjoy fighting for builds are idiotic when you waste just as much time "trolling them". Smity Smitington 18:29, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi smity! as for the idiotic, after reading again what i wrote, i realise that when i speak idiotic, it passes as if im calling u and others idiots, but thats not my intention, what i meant was that the attachment and all the fight and consequent hate between the´contenders is "idiotic" not the ppl themselves... as for me wasting time trolling them, as u said, i mostly do my edits from work (like now), and usually i make just a few edits per discussion, not a ton of edits like u and others, and i joke about it, i dont take this very seriously, its just that for me its quite funny to read these "shootouts" between build makers and all i do is throw "some petrol in the fire", so to speak... hope this clears things for u, i dont usually do personal attacks or insult ppl, and i dont wanna pass as if im one of those... Huh, do u or xclude have more builds coming up!? i hope so, this wiki needs u guys!! 83.240.216.121 07:26, 14 October 2011 (UTC) enormous
 * i realised now, after seeping trough recent changes, that minion took this case to the "supreme court", now smity, u tell me, isnt this way to much attachment? if it isnt, i dont now what is...83.240.216.121 07:38, 14 October 2011 (UTC) enormous
 * well, I respect the degree to which he fights for builds tbh. I think it is good for the wiki as it challenges the minds and arguing abilities of it's members and even the conventions of what makes a build good.  There was also a great deal of elitism here which has mostly died out but I personally have felt like a crusader against it by at least forcing people to provide good reasons for their positions instead of accepting the "you have to suck dick" attitude.  I'm sure as a result of all this "drama", we have actually opened the minds of some players who never realized that melee can be extremely effective on a caster, for instance.  I'm programming on the computer almost 24/7 and need outlets to reduce the monotony of things, so for that pvx is great. Smity Smitington 07:59, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * So is Toraen around or any other admin to review these ratings? Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 00:12, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * It's called Admin Noticeboard. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 00:38, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, my rating is perfectly justified, and this build doesn't deserve anything above 3.75 anyway, so it'll get trashed whether the votes are 0-0-0 or not. Kracatoan 09:48, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * If you think it deserves 3,75 then give 3,75. I think there's something wrong with the reasoning system when someone can use talk page to say it's a good or workable build and then trash it in voting.  Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 19:11, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * and that's the flaw in community voting, no? someone's a despot. unfortunately it takes time to sway the masses. if your goal is that, buckle down for the long road. but until you can convince everyone in the user space that this is a great or good alternative to anything they know is better. get over it. if your wanting to submit a build that helps all those in pve, make a Any/w.e build. you can't let people not seeing your grand vision bum you down. never give up minion. stay strong, and move on. i could vouch that w/mo prot is good and workable in a certain situation. doesn't make everyone else wrong for having their own opinion. again, that being said... until something like this is deemed uber, by a majority, stop crying about the vetting system, or seek a change in it. and yet again, "i think"...sigh...minion, you have to keep emotion out of these silly arguments of yours. i think, i feel, i believe. those aren't opinions. those are emotion. keep "i" out of it. you cant be flimsy on what you say. "If you think it deserves 3,75 then give 3,75. there's something wrong with the reasoning system when someone can use talk page to say it's a good or workable build and then it get trashed in voting." that was all i had to work with, but you have to keep personal feelings out of it. don't say i feel, just say it doesn't work. and also, questioning people's reasoning. you can't. all you can do is have your own idea's about it. if you want their ideas to change, be persuasive. facts, proving its mettle, cold hard data. those get you places. there is a difference in opinion, persuasion, arguing. find it. :/ yes emotion can sway stupid people, politicians do it all the time. but i'd like to think that most people here are more smart than the average american voter. fuck it, waste of my time. and tbh, he said it shouldn't get anything higher that a 3.75 anyway, the break point to even be saved on the site. he never said it deserved at least a 3.75. also, wall says what?   Akio  _Ka  t  suragi   Akio_Katsuragi_Sig2.jpg 19:59, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think it deserves 3.75, I think it deserves 2. I was just saying that any vote above 3.75 (i.e good) is wrong. Kracatoan 21:09, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

wait. are we really discussing a necromancer with a sword? - Auron 11:43, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * yes, yes...we...are... <FONT COLOR="#000000">S</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000033">h</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000066">a</FONT><FONT COLOR="#00009a">d</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000cd">o</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff">w</FONT> 13:16, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * hey its auron. and but auron, its hb and mop in one bar. compression. and its basically got warrior al anyways. but mop is on it so frees up hero skill. anyways. glad all the "negative votes are baed, therefore must be changed, here-so i decree" thing is wrapped up.  Akio _Ka  t  suragi   Akio_Katsuragi_Sig2.jpg 17:11, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Vorpal
It's called: I like trains :D <FONT COLOR="#000000">S</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000033">h</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000066">a</FONT><FONT COLOR="#00009a">d</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000cd">o</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff">w</FONT> 16:12, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Haha that video is funny as hell! xD <font color="Black">Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 17:47, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Team compression
I am not convinced that the team compression this build provides is meaningful. Curses has useful skills aside from Mark of Pain (enchant removal, weaken armor, enfeebling blood) and it has two elites that can contribute directly to spikes if assists are needed to finish off balls (FoC + PoD) one of which can get rid of annoying enchantments. The common hero builds that can be dropped for Manly heroway include Illusion, SoGM, (both rather meh with such a spike) and even MMs if your balling techniques are up to par (much like FoC and RoJ don't need MMs). On a different note, the only people who need to run 100B on their necro due to lack of a warrior will tend to not be skilled enough to run this without dying, which is partially why I'd rather caster melee be an implicit variant to existing builds. As a foil to this, dagger para only gets a pass (and only for heroway play) despite having no advantages over A/any because literally no other spear build is worth running over Imbagon (they don't improve on the damage enough/at all and are far worse in all other respects). Necros definitely don't have this issue. We don't have a black-and-white stance on rerolling in PvE, but I feel this doesn't fall under the 'PvE reroll' protection. --  Toraen   talk  22:15, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Just an extra note on my part, regarding that last bit. Rolling Domination mesmer, as opposed to a fire ele is acceptable. They both big damage, and can be used in spikes. They act and perform differently, but overall a similar and just as effective roll is achieved. That is an acceptable case of "you don't need to re-roll". Swapping a meele class, with a caster one, proceeding to reduce the casters armour even more, and only actually using the caster primary for a single skill (and not using the primary attribute of the class to any great extent), is not.
 * The reasons for this are:
 * You'll die quicker. (lower AL)
 * Any meele class can out perform you due to higher AL meaning better survivability, and being able to better spec skills and atts (they can take all the weapon skills then chose a suitable secondary to accent those skills)
 * You're wasting the potential of the class you're choosing to not play as so you can swing a sword even though you're not a warrior.
 * I could probably rant more but I feel my note has already become a rant. <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  23:11, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * One issue with that, Phen, is AL is rather irrelevant here. It doesn't take AI long to react to healing you so that extra 10~ AL won't matter. You also have 3 powerful prots (PS, Aegis and SoA) which negate any damage, along with yer rit heals. What matters is that 100b is effective for triggering mop on a warrior, ergo it's also effective on a necro with a sword, triggering it himself. Bar compression wasn't the only reason in having it on your own bar; you get better placement control. The only good curses elites are very situational. You need an AoE hex or enchanted foe, which are pointless AoE damages when scaled next to Mark of Pain which has a 10% chance of insta recharge from AoS. Enfeebling Blood is a popular choice, but you only have to spec 3-6 curses which isn't enough for MoP. The meleemancer could, if it was ballsy enough, run in with 16 curses and blow stuff up. I'll have to sieve out some screenshots of meleemancers being amazing.  Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 23:24, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not surprised that a well-guided hero manlyway clears DoA even with a melee necro, I'm saying this isn't worth storing due to lack of advantages. You do not have better placement control, it is exactly the same - you press one key. Regarding FoC: AoE hexes are dirt common and you'd have to be paying no attention to not slot one somewhere among your 56 hero skills (there's even quite a few useful ones). If you don't want a curses elite, take an elite from it's secondary role. Also, I'd like you to address Relyk's vote, since it covers a lot of what I was going to say here and saves me a WoT. --  Toraen   talk  01:53, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

This site blows without BMs
You really have to do 6 sections of wall of text now to get a meleemancer trashed? lolololololol &mdash;  skakid  16:32, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
 * it rocks rly. Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 17:10, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
 * If it makes you feel better, this was trashed by about the 2nd section. --  Toraen   talk  18:10, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
 * it does :D didn't notice that &mdash;  skakid  19:07, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, it wasn't necesarry I think, but this build and some others were protected by some people, and they tried to get it into the good-great section. <FONT COLOR="#000000">S</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000033">h</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000066">a</FONT><FONT COLOR="#00009a">d</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000cd">o</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff">w</FONT> 18:55, 22 October 2011 (UTC)