Archive talk:A/W BMT Shadow Prison Assassin

removal of lightning reflexes
i removed "lightning reflexes" from the optional IAS, dont be stupid you cant be an assassin/warrior/ranger 62.136.170.92 11:27, 9 April 2008 (EDT) oh yeah, and the cooldown is far too long so noone would use it 62.136.170.92 11:36, 9 April 2008 (EDT)
 * If you used LR, then it would replace the only warrior skill on the bar, smart ass. - PANIC!  [[Image:panic_sig3.gif|20px]]  pewpewpew!  11:40, 9 April 2008 (EDT)

yeha, but with a 30s cooldown youd be stupid to use it...smart ass 62.136.170.92 12:07, 9 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Actually, many high-ranked players do use LR, for the 75% block, smart ass. [[image:klumpeetsignature.jpg|19px]] Klumpeet . ŧ . ¢ . 03:27, 15 April 2008 (EDT)

Record, use of smart-ass' 3 times in 3 lines :P 68.225.12.77 23:02, 20 April 2008 (EDT)

The Gates Assassin's Vote
Starting afresh. Seeing as you've conceded that this shouldn't be compared to the pre-nerf SP sin nor to the AoD Shock Sin, I've not ascertained a reason from you as to how this Sin fails. The damage won't kill, but any amount of coordination can solve that. You don't rate a spike on whether or not it is blockable. That alienates almost every warrior build we've got and sin build we've got. That it has a 25 second downtime is a minimal point.  Shen has cookies 10:20, 25 December 2007 (EST)
 * I didn't think warriors spiked. I thought they were more for frontline pressure (correct me if I'm wrong as I'm not an expert on PvP). Most of them can get past blocking by using Wild Blow or some of the other unblockable attacks offered. To be honest this shouldn't be compared to Warriors, that's kind of a different game altogether in that respect as they are played very differently and tend to require more skill in my opinion. 25 seconds between spikes is a pretty big flaw though, I;d rather not be sitting around kiting for 20 seconds if something goes wrong. Selket Shadowdancer 10:57, 25 December 2007 (EST)
 * W/E Shock Axe, W/A Shadow Axe-I'm comparing the counters, not the uses for each class. The versatility comes from the shadow step. One moment you're pressuring a squishy, the next one an enemy monk's KD'd and dead. You are merely capitalizing on this Assassin's simple counter. The fact is, every build has its counter, and it is assumed when using a sin of this nature you can bypass such a counter through the not-nearly-as-simple but still quite commonly seen phenomena that is Coordination. Granted the spike goes through, the recharge hardly matters. There is no better sin spike avaliable. [[Image:Shogunshen_Holidaysig.jpg|20px]] Shen has cookies 11:20, 25 December 2007 (EST)
 * Dunno, I prefer using Caster Assassins for some reason, I love the Augury of Death, Signet of Toxic Shock spike. :) Selket Shadowdancer 11:25, 25 December 2007 (EST)
 * The Reason I dont like it isn't because it is blockable. It isn't even totally that it has no utility at all, nor that it has no healing for itself. The reason is the 25 second recharge for everywhere but AB, but even in AB you cant take another hex because you have to take dash for IMS. Most spikes are blockable, nearly all are, but most build are back in the game in 8-15 seconds. This is back in 25. At most This should be rated good. It is a strong spike, I'll admit it's not horrible, theres your 3 points. the -2 is because if stopped, thats not happening for another 25 seconds. Thats a big deal. Universality, no healing, no anti block, no condition removal, all it has to push the spike is a KD, thus I gave it only a 2 for that. Innovation, It's shadow prison. EDIT: Cleaned up a crappy sentence--[[Image:Assassin-icon.png|20px]] The Gates Assassin 23:46, 25 December 2007 (EST)
 * You didn't bother to read any of what I posted. And your lame-ass point still contains no support. You just admitted nearly all spikes are blockable. So...every spike should get a three in effectiveness because it's blockable. Blocking enchants are meta, as are blockable spikes. What on earth are you assuming that points to the opposite? Blocking enchants would not be meta if the spikes were not so good. You fail to realize this, and it shows in your rating. [[Image:Shogunshen_Holidaysig.jpg|20px]] Shen has cookies 09:06, 26 December 2007 (EST)
 * Taking on board what you just said. If blocking enchantments are meta doesn't it make more sense to make a build that can counter the blocking? Where's the sense in using a build that can easily be blocked by the current meta game of today? See my point? Selket Shadowdancer 09:09, 26 December 2007 (EST)
 * The blocking evolved from the spiking. The spiking still works remarkably well, given a level of coordination not too overreaching. [[Image:Shogunshen_Holidaysig.jpg|20px]] Shen has cookies 09:16, 26 December 2007 (EST)
 * Most spike builds have half the recharge of this spike, and they have some kind of utility. This doesn't.--[[Image:Assassin-icon.png|20px]] The Gates Assassin 13:24, 26 December 2007 (EST)
 * That doesn't contribute to any pointed argument. What spike builds could you be talking about? All you are doing is drawing unfounded parallels. But please, let me shoot them down. [[Image:Shogunshen_Holidaysig.jpg|20px]] Shen <font color=#B22222>has <font color=#B22222>cookies 13:32, 26 December 2007 (EST)
 * Question: Is this person's vote changing the overall rating of this build (ie. Great to Good or Other)? If not, why all the hullabaloo?  If he doesn't like it, he can use whatever build he wants.  That being said, @Gates, no one is forcing this build down your throat.  I'm very surprised to see someone fight so hard to keep a vote that may or may not even affect the overall rating.  I could understand more if you were trying to outright kill the build, but lowering the rating will really do little.  The build is already widespread, so anyone using this build probably likes it.  This is one of those "love it or hate it" builds...kinda like IWAY is (or was at least).  76.89.84.136 13:49, 26 December 2007 (EST)
 * With that said his vote is to reflect his opinion of the build and pretty much most of what he said is accurate, regardless of whether this is or isn't current meta. Kudos for being able to stand aside and give this build an honest rating with his own opinion based on facts and not give into peer pressure. Selket Shadowdancer 14:02, 26 December 2007 (EST)
 * There still needs to be some kind of resolution to this. Neither Gates or Shen are going to give ground, so what can be done to put an end to this argument?  76.89.84.136 14:17, 26 December 2007 (EST)
 * One or two votes will hardly affect the builds rating, so I don't really think anything needs to be done to be quite honest. Not like any of the votes are Trash votes now are they? The minority rarely affects the majority. Selket Shadowdancer 14:26, 26 December 2007 (EST)
 * The fact he gave ground in revoting shows just how little justification he can come up with. I hope he doesn't resort to this "meaningless-to-argue" spiel, or I'm just going to have to say GG. [[Image:Shogunshen_Holidaysig.jpg|20px]]<font color="Darkgreen"> Shen <font color=#B22222>has <font color=#B22222>cookies 14:29, 26 December 2007 (EST)
 * Just say GG anyway because this arguement is pointless when it doesn't affect the builds rating anyway. Selket Shadowdancer 14:30, 26 December 2007 (EST)
 * Agreed. I fail to see any reason to keep it going any longer.  76.89.84.136 14:38, 26 December 2007 (EST)
 * I've Justified my rating more than enough. I gave ground because it has a good amount of damage for a spike, but even then I only gave one point. I'm keeping it. Bye.--[[Image:Assassin-icon.png|20px]] The Gates Assassin 19:57, 26 December 2007 (EST)
 * I have seen no justification. Your crappy points have been exhausted, and you've not offered anything to the contrary. [[Image:Shogunshen_Holidaysig.jpg|20px]]<font color="Darkgreen"> Shen <font color=#B22222>has <font color=#B22222>cookies 20:52, 26 December 2007 (EST)
 * All of you stfu and let Auron on somebody decide about the vote. - Rawrawr  21:12, 26 December 2007 (EST)

Lo Lad's just adding my $1 to this build - first of all i have to admit that I am a hater of the original SP builds because everybody always seems to run it as much as 99% of all rangers run burning arrow builds....

that asside ive taken this build for a personal test run & even tho it lacks utilites (something i tend to hate a lot about some builds but sometimes i do run builds without self heal so im one to critasize others...) this sin build is a sure fire 1 for 1 build. just its a suicide trip - tele in run your chain & whoever your target its will just explode literally. this build kills unsusspecting targets stupidly fast but the downside is once youve killed them the rest of the team turn around & decided to give to some rump loving & obviously lacking a return/dash or self heal your obviously not going to live for very long.

but asside from those negatives. its a fairly decent build. its not my fave build as I still am a hater of all SP type builds.

anyway - i will leave you with these last thoughts - "Dude i have never seen anybody die so fast"

P.S.

SP nerfing has to be one of the best things to happen to assassins because now assassins are a lot more creative with their builds. not 80%+ of players will run the same builds making the playing field a lot more diverse & fun. PvP would be boring otherwise


 * Please sign your comments with four tildes ( ~ ). Thanks. [[image:User_Godliest_Icon_ritualist.jpg|19px]] <font color="#339999">GΩdlﺄεﻯt <font color="#DA04FF">-_-  09:21, 29 December 2007 (EST)


 * I luv SP, and all the rest of GW Elite Skills dat work :D [[Image:SuperIgorsig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Purple"><tt>I</tt>g<tt>o</tt>r<tt></tt> 11:03, 29 December 2007 (EST)

You know this will eventually become another toucher story. Almost everyone is going to bring some blind or something and screw them up. -- Guild of  Deals  19:08, 30 December 2007 (EST)
 * Smoke Powder Defense FTW! Selket Shadowdancer 19:23, 30 December 2007 (EST)
 * this is just another reason we need the BM policy to be implemented faster, so that morons like you guys stop pulling shit like this.Bob fregman 20:12, 31 December 2007 (EST)
 * Hey I just gave my honest opinion from my experiences with the build. Not everyone is going to agree that's the whole point of hacing a vote in the first place. Selket Shadowdancer 20:15, 31 December 2007 (EST)
 * Hey now. Whether you intended to or not you give the BM policy a negative connotation. Like silencing the wit-less or something. [[Image:Shogunshen_Sig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Black"> Shen (contribs) 20:20, 31 December 2007 (EST)
 * I said nothing of the sort. I implied that the purpose of the Bm policy was to make it so idiots couldnt diminish the quality of the wiki, not so that they couldnt have a voice.Bob fregman 20:22, 31 December 2007 (EST)
 * Good to know. [[Image:Shogunshen_Sig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Black"> Shen (contribs) 20:23, 31 December 2007 (EST)
 * And this isnt a vote, where one expresses basless oppinions, its a rating system, where one casts aside bias and rates objectivly based on facts.Bob fregman 20:24, 31 December 2007 (EST)
 * Unfortunately, that's only in theory. [[Image:Shogunshen_Sig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Black"> Shen (contribs) 20:25, 31 December 2007 (EST)
 * Link to BM policy? Oh and Bob you gave it a 5 5 5when it has obvious downsides with a comment saying "Pretty much Pwns" so you didn't back it up. "And this isn't a vote where one expresses baseless oppinions its a rating system, where one casts aside bias and rates objectivly based on facts" Sigh.--[[Image:Assassin-icon.png|20px]] The Gates Assassin 06:16, 1 January 2008 (EST)

Great/Good
Stop reverting, leave it at Great. An admin will handle it. <font color="Black"> Shen (contribs) 21:37, 31 December 2007 (EST)
 * ^, Infested. [[Image:Shogunshen_Sig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Black"> Shen (contribs) 22:10, 31 December 2007 (EST)
 * wut, it's below 4,5 so it should be good :/ Infested  Hydralisk  [[image:InfestedHydralisk_sig.jpg|19px]] ( Talk * Contributions ) 22:12, 31 December 2007 (EST)
 * Bob fregman Should clear things up. Will you revert your own change? [[Image:Shogunshen_Sig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Black"> Shen (contribs) 22:14, 31 December 2007 (EST)
 * it's below 4,5 so it should have good, thats that tbh Infested  Hydralisk  [[image:InfestedHydralisk_sig.jpg|19px]] ( Talk * Contributions ) 22:16, 31 December 2007 (EST)
 * I'm for following IGNORE. Deserves to be in great, without baseless votes.[[Image:Shogunshen_Sig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Black"> Shen (contribs) 22:21, 31 December 2007 (EST)
 * i r following the ratings :p Infested  Hydralisk  [[image:InfestedHydralisk_sig.jpg|19px]] ( Talk * Contributions ) 22:23, 31 December 2007 (EST)

I say IGNORE beats Real Vetting. ---  Ressmonkey (talk)  22:37, 31 December 2007 (EST)

Sorry im a little late was playing some CoD4, but yeah, they summed it up nicely. I say we keep it great until some intervention by admins.Bob fregman 22:47, 31 December 2007 (EST)
 * told it should be in good now.. Infested  Hydralisk  [[image:InfestedHydralisk_sig.jpg|19px]] ( Talk * Contributions ) 02:23, 1 January 2008 (EST)
 * 373 damage vs AL60 every 15 seconds = not great imo. --71.229@home
 * not even =good, imo. And it can't even do that unless you have another hexer in our team. 364.84 damage+DW is far from amazing every 25 seconds. Also, wtf is with tagging this for every single type of PvP? --<font color="Black">Edru viransu //<font color="Red">QQ about me /sysop 03:45, 1 January 2008 (EST)
 * Also, tomorrow, I'm going to go through all of these votes with no reasoning or reasoning that doesn't make sense(like, 25 second recharge target foe shadowstep that you can only use one way is reason enough for 5 universality) and at least some of them will be getting removed. --<font color="Black">Edru viransu //<font color="Red">QQ about me /sysop 04:04, 1 January 2008 (EST)
 * Indeed, this is one of those builds that epicly needs that. At least you called dibs before me :P -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 04:11, 1 January 2008 (EST)

It's pretty sux, pressure assassins are where it's at now (sadly?) &mdash;  Skadiddly [슴Mc슴] Diddles  04:26, 1 January 2008 (EST)
 * I dunno, I can still swing 650 damage in five seconds with a 'sin. --71.229@home
 * I consider scythesins pressure with good spikes (like a warrior) =P &mdash;  Skadiddly [슴Mc슴] Diddles  04:30, 1 January 2008 (EST)
 * Fuck scythesins. And yeah, Shattering Assault faggotry is dominating the game right now, and my build is baed anyway. --71.229@home
 * UNBLOCKABLE SHT FTW..sry rando, thing i needed to say Infested  Hydralisk  [[image:InfestedHydralisk_sig.jpg|19px]] ( Talk * Contributions ) 04:37, 1 January 2008 (EST)
 * 650 damage? Not true. Not even with 16 dagger mastery is that even remotely possible even if you add in DW. Don't QQ; this the SP meta sin and nothing more ;-). Thats a completely bias vote. because it is the meta does NOT mean it just gets a free ticket into PvX. Most of the votes in there fail to see the down points with this build and instead just give it  5 5 5! IS META GUYZ!--[[Image:Assassin-icon.png|20px]] The Gates Assassin 05:23, 1 January 2008 (EST)
 * Not with this build, this build sucks. I can swing 650 with a 'sin chain is what I'm saying.  And don't worry, this is gonna get cleaned up pretty snappy. --71.229@home
 * Mind showing that bar? Just curious, really. --Mafaraxas 08:06, 1 January 2008 (EST)
 * Yeah plz cuz that has to be like a 6 attack skill bar. --[[Image:Assassin-icon.png|20px]] The Gates Assassin 12:45, 1 January 2008 (EST)
 * I fail to see why you're so upset over these votes. It's meta cause it works, and it can do its job pretty damn well, too. And what is its job? To spike, or if you fail, some hard pressure. You win HB by capping points. Sins like this one are meta because they can pick off lonely cappers or take out the enemy monks as quick as possible. You're always moving (or you should be), and builds like this hit opponents in the "in-between"; meaning while the both of you are trying to cap points, spikes like these can quickly give you an advantage on the scoreboard or even a win. My vote wasn't biased, because it IS the HB meta 'sin and nothing more. Why do you think HB is the only tag on there? It DOES its job and nothing more. Smooths 17:48, 1 January 2008 (EST)
 * I think that post was before the move of the build, when it was tagged for basically everything in PvP.--[[Image:Assassin-icon.png|20px]] The Gates Assassin 22:22, 1 January 2008 (EST)
 * It was, but I guess I was just looking directly at its use for HB. Forgive my rant (QQ). I shouldn't have let it off that easy. Smooths 23:10, 1 January 2008 (EST)

Votes
Not addressed to anyone in particular, but most likely Edru, since he graciously volunteered to sort things out. If my 5 vote in universality, invalid, according to Edru, because of the 25 second recharge, warrants the stricking of my vote, I'm forced to question every vote that gives a 5 in effectiveness. Because the 25 second recharge would hardly be taken into so much consideration if the spike already had, again according to Edru, such a significant chance to fail. Point is, "effective" votes need to be held under the same scrutiny, using the same logic, as "universal" votes. Also, Edru, does this mean you're gonna be more active? <font color="Black"> Shen (contribs) 11:42, 1 January 2008 (EST)
 * You got it on the nail. This is not a 5 (or even 4) effectiveness build. Any such votes blatantly misrepresent the builds abilities. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 13:57, 1 January 2008 (EST)
 * NEVER!!!! --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]] Ressmonkey (talk)  13:59, 1 January 2008 (EST)
 * Shock Axe >>> this. A spike every six seconds or so, baring complications, along with actual utility, compared to this? I know what I want. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 14:04, 1 January 2008 (EST)
 * My point was that a shadowstep with nearly half a minute cooldown that you can only use one way isn't a reason to give a build 5 universality. Target foe shadowsteps don't really give much versatility(except for AoD). Maybe a 5 second recharge target foe shadowstep might, but giving a build 5 universality with your reason essentially being "it has a shadowstep" is flawed if that shadowstep isn't AoD(or maybe recall pre-latest-nerf). I disagree with the 5 effectiveness votes, but they're not necessarily flawed enough to warrant removal(except in the no-reasoning cases), imo. --<font color="Black">Edru viransu //<font color="Red">QQ about me /sysop 14:31, 1 January 2008 (EST)
 * Ah, I see. [[Image:Shogunshen_Sig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Black"> Shen (contribs) 14:35, 1 January 2008 (EST)

Everybody Boo Erdu
BOOOOO!!!!!!! ---  Ressmonkey (talk)  15:08, 1 January 2008 (EST)
 * Now it moved to HB :( --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]] Ressmonkey (talk)  15:47, 1 January 2008 (EST)
 * boo...? --Mafaraxas 15:48, 1 January 2008 (EST)
 * He removed like 7 5-5-5 ratings before he wiped them all --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]] Ressmonkey (talk)  16:18, 1 January 2008 (EST)

HB
No res sig then. What to replace? <font color="Black"> Shen (contribs) 15:39, 1 January 2008 (EST)
 * Siphon? Remedy? Refuge? Recall? --<font color="Black">Edru viransu //<font color="Red">QQ about me /sysop 15:40, 1 January 2008 (EST)
 * So...does this mean this owns now? I'm forced to ask. [[Image:Shogunshen_Sig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Black"> Shen (contribs) 15:41, 1 January 2008 (EST)
 * It's much better in HB(tahlk has bad reflexes and this has great synergy with fire eles that are so popular). --<font color="Black">Edru viransu //<font color="Red">QQ about me /sysop 15:44, 1 January 2008 (EST)

Cuz this has 1 rating, Im gonna move it back to testing. ---  Ressmonkey (talk)  15:48, 1 January 2008 (EST)

If we're going with Siphon Speed, should atts be 12, 11, and 6? <font color="Black"> Shen (contribs) 15:50, 1 January 2008 (EST)
 * 13 crit, 13 dagger, 7 deadly. --<font color="Black">Edru viransu //<font color="Red">QQ about me /sysop 15:51, 1 January 2008 (EST)
 * Done. [[Image:Shogunshen_Sig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Black"> Shen (contribs) 15:52, 1 January 2008 (EST)

Err... isn't the SP Trampling Ox Sin approved for HB? The only difference is just really Siphon Speed I'm pretty sure. Practically a dupe. -- Guild of  Deals  16:33, 1 January 2008 (EST)
 * It was moved. [[Image:Shogunshen_Sig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Black"> Shen (contribs) 16:34, 1 January 2008 (EST)


 * This is the trampling ox sin. [[Image:ViYsig5.jpg|19px]]<font color="Darkblue">Victoryisyours (<font color="Darkblue">talk /<font color="Black">RfA ) 17:14, 1 January 2008 (EST)

545. This is how it should have been origonally been put into wiki-- The Gates Assassin 17:25, 1 January 2008 (EST)

This is fucking retarded. It's used in and works decent in several forms of pvp. I thought part of pvx was to document the meta? If someone comes here looking for the most commonly ran SP build, I doubt most of em will look at HB right away. – Ichigo 724  17:59, 1 January 2008 (EST)
 * We're supposed to maintain a high quality of builds too. This works great in HB, not just "decent", while in RA/TA/AB/CM, it works only decently. &mdash;  Skadiddly [슴Mc슴] Diddles  18:03, 1 January 2008 (EST)
 * Regardless, we should have it tagged for the other areas imo. Or use a dupe and tag that differently. – Ichigo 724 [[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 18:09, 1 January 2008 (EST)
 * No. It's baed elsewhere. It's only effective in HB. --<font color="Black">Edru viransu //<font color="Red">QQ about me /sysop 18:38, 1 January 2008 (EST)
 * Then go remove half the tags on pvx. – Ichigo 724 [[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 18:42, 1 January 2008 (EST)


 * Do that then. &mdash;  Skadiddly [슴Mc슴] Diddles  18:43, 1 January 2008 (EST)

"Makes enemies go boom." Well, that fits the mindset of the meta sin but I'd hope you fools could at least make a decent description.--69.145.194.67 05:35, 5 January 2008 (EST)
 * lolsefre -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 14:02, 5 January 2008 (EST)


 * I believe there was a controversy (or whatever) on what the description should be. Make's enemies go boom is short, sweet, and to the point. &mdash; [[Image:ViYsig5.jpg|19px]]<font color="Darkblue">Victoryisyours (<font color="Darkblue">talk /<font color="Black">RfA ) 15:58, 5 January 2008 (EST)


 * Yeah Look at the Archive. We started with "sets the Economical Primer for this Quintessencial Assassin Attack chain" to Quitessencial --> De Rogur or something and then we changed de rogur to "Hunkin' Gud" and then we finally changed it to "Makes Enemies Go Boom" --[[Image:Assassin-icon.png|20px]] The Gates Assassin 17:17, 5 January 2008 (EST)
 * Way to destroy any stray pieces of lulz that were left there, folks. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] <font color="black" face="calibri">Mafaraxas 17:22, 5 January 2008 (EST)

lolwut, I thought we got over this. Maybe ska is just bored. -- <font color="black" face="calibri">Mafaraxas 04:10, 25 January 2008 (EST)

Needs to Be Great
The most commonly used player build in HB isn't even great, tbh that's poor.--Drowning Pigeon 01:45, 7 February 2008 (EST)
 * "Common" != good. Think toucher. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 02:32, 7 February 2008 (EST)

Napalm Flame 

''It's pretty shit, it's just the team that helps it be good. ''

Score 2 2 2

Talk to him. Apperently he thinks this build should be trashed.--<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  09:41, 7 February 2008 (EST)


 * He's right. What's your point? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 11:33, 7 February 2008 (EST)
 * Seriously Armond. Stop being shit at HB. - Rawrawr  13:00, 7 February 2008 (EST)
 * How is he right?--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  14:25, 7 February 2008 (EST)
 * It's a bad build. It works exceptionally well in HB, yes, but that's because of the conditions of the maps and teams. Were someone to throw up a team build for HB involving this build, depending on how the rest of the team looked, I'd rate it high, but this build on its own is bad. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 14:39, 7 February 2008 (EST)
 * 'It works exceptionally well in HB' And its tagged for just HB. O gg - Rawrawr  14:45, 7 February 2008 (EST)
 * The team build is good. The individual build is not. This is a subtle distinction that you seem to be missing. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 14:46, 7 February 2008 (EST)
 * Its only intended for that team build. If you don't use it with that, you are bad. This is like that DA sin for sinsplit, its in great but its awful outside of sinsplit. - Rawrawr  14:48, 7 February 2008 (EST)

If a build works great at what it's supposed to do, where it's supposed to do it doesn't that = good/great? Am I missing something? Swiftslash \\  (<font color="Black">contributions  * sandbox ) 16:02, 7 February 2008 (EST)
 * exactly... - Rawrawr  16:03, 7 February 2008 (EST)

It's not only for the mo rt e build either, it's used on other teams (such as n rt rt) &mdash;  Skadiddly [슴Mc슴] Diddles  16:16, 7 February 2008 (EST)
 * This build is the best sin build for HB, shadowsteps & snares, ability to kill and good damage, if you rate it low in HB because you say it is bad on it's own, you aren't playing it properly! Drowning Pigeon

Optionals?
I never really got why Shadow Prison was used instead of Dark Prison. They do nearly the same thing, just that Dark Prison only makes 33% speed decrease and has 5 sec more recharge. Plus, dark prison isnt an elite. Use some better elite, like Fox's Promise.
 * Dark Prison is "you're moving pretty slow now". Shadow Prison is "YOU'RE NOT MOVING UNTIL I SAY SO." Also, shorter recharge = more spikes. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 17:03, 22 February 2008 (EST)
 * Yeah 33% is a pityful snare. --[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  23:36, 22 February 2008 (EST)
 * Not really, it's just that 66% is exponentially better. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 20:43, 23 February 2008 (EST)
 * Siphon speed is only good because you get to move 33% faster too. --[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  23:14, 23 February 2008 (EST)
 * Siphon is best snare in the game, you move faster he moves slower, low cost, low recharge perfect cover hex and the best way to stop hero's going to shrines, siphon then black mantis=awesome snare, and all that every 5 seconds (if you need it to be so frequent). Unless Expose Defences gets buffed siphon will be the utility hex in this build. Rainbow Ftw 06:15, 24 February 2008 (EST)
 * Used to be*82.26.142.182 13:32, 16 March 2008 (EDT)
 * No shit, look at date of posting.. --Rainbow Ftw 13:43, 17 March 2008 (EDT)

Archive
leave it there. <font color=#ff0000>Napalm Flame  >=] <font color=#0000ff>(talk)·(contributions) 23:23, 23 March 2008 (EDT)
 * Quite a lot of people still use it; just swap Siphon for Dark Prison and gg, you then need to take a hero with hexes whcih isn't hard to do with Rt/N's and Mo/N's all over the place... SP is still used to good effect, I still use it; it owns. Rainbow Ftw
 * People still use this. SP is still imba. Dark prison or expose can replace siphon. I should un-archive this. ~ ʑʌɱʌɳəəɺɨɳɳ [[Image:Zealot's Fire.jpg|19px]] (contribs) 20:33, 2 April 2008 (EDT)

Another optional
How about enduring toxin?, its 5e 1/4c 10r for a cheap degen and a quick recharging skill. Prokiller88 18:00, 5 April 2008 (EDT)
 * It's useless. Dark and Shadow prison both actually do something. --[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  19:44, 5 April 2008 (EDT)

How in the hell are you gonna build the needed adrenaline? Just stick to Tiger Stance 'couse this option is lame.--83.19.251.66 19:02, 20 April 2008 (EDT)
 * I heard that if you press the spacebar, your little dude will run over to another little dude and start wailing on him. --71.229 19:03, 20 April 2008 (EDT)

Flail???
Why the hell would you use Flail in this bild? Shadow Prison would have ended long ago before you have gathered the adrenaline required for it. Plz explain why Flail is so much better. Start with hitting him and then use SP+Flail? If thats the idea, plz put it in usage as currently it can really confuse ppl. --Arthas 19:12, 20 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Look, it's extremely simple... flail is an awesome FREE IAS and ur crippling and KD'ing frequently and using snares on chains, there is no way in a clean spike will the reduced movement speed effect the build. You don't actually need an IAS to get a kill, and yes you are meant to switch targets as a sin, so load up adrenaline on one target then spike another one. Rainbow Ftw

so let me get this straight......your supposed to 'run' up to somebody & start beating them BEFORE using your SP+flail chain?? lol what a waste of an elite, sorry not a waste but POOR USE of an elite might aswell use another HEX or elite to trigger the cripple Im not saying the builds totally lame but it could work at the expense of utility & not being able to tele in as soon as u pick a target & run your chain straight from start to finish. 78.146.79.153 09:25, 1 May 2008 (EDT)
 * So you're saying we should, right from the start, poof in and start spiking? Obvious?--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  17:40, 1 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I dont think 78.146.79.153 understands that you don't build up adrenaline then spike the same guy, you auto another enemy then spike another one, hat way you get your free 33% IAS and a better element of suprise. Frosty! 17:49, 1 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Build adrenaline on an enemy other then ur target, activate Flail, then shadowstep to them, they wont get away in time before u kd them and finish combo.--[[Image:Relyk Purifying Veil Sig.jpg|19px]]<font color="99CCFF">R ELYK   <font color="CCCCFF">ʞlɐʇ ʎɯ  03:34, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

Time?
If someone knows the exact time of how long it takes to use the build from left to right (assuming you have fail charged up), could the leave the info? Thanks (need info for team build).- <font color="Red">Jak123X 18:17, 7 May 2008 (EDT)
 * 4.23 seconds, if I got my calculation for Jungle Strike right. --71.229 18:21, 7 May 2008 (EDT)
 * kwl, how'd you work that out? Drowning Pigeon
 * Attack Speed. .25s SP + 4*.89s attacks + .66*.5s Jungle Strike = 4.13 seconds is what I got.  Though I may have screwed up, too. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] <font color="black" face="calibri">Mafaraxas  11:32, 9 May 2008 (EDT)
 * aftercast? – Ichigo 724 [[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 17:08, 9 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Shadow Steps don't suffer from aftercast.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  18:50, 9 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Beguiling Haze does :p Drowning Pigeon

k thanks- <font color="Red">Jak123X 17:30, 19 May 2008 (EDT)

nerf
to shadowsteps? now there's an aftercast Pwnagemuffin 20:04, 10 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Do the heroes have enough time to remove the hex before the first hit now? :< --і†оκαҐυ 16:46, 12 July 2008 (EDT)
 * with reverse hex.. it's removed everytime. Build isn't rly viable in top 100 play (at least).--Drowning Pigeon 07:50, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

Tbh, aftercast a 0.75sec... NO Reverse Hex and chain fucked Archiving... Massive  16:36, 24 July 2008 (EDT)

This is still
Used, I think this should be vote wiped, if it remains vetted, let it be, if it gets trashed (or maybe put into the acceptable set) then archive it, anyone else onboard?  Frosty  No U!  19:35, 30 July 2008 (EDT)
 * I'm all for allowing this build to stay vetted. I still use it, and there are some HBers that prefer this over the Backbreaker build. It is still very effective despite the 3/4 aftercast delay. Shinomori 16:00, 1 August 2008 (EDT)