Build talk:Rt/A Spirit's Strength Dagger Spammer

I'd recommend dropping WoA from the mainbar. You're pretty much always better served by just letting someone buff you for the weapon spell requirement and alcohol can be had pretty cheap (and the DPS is still very good even with only 15% IAS if the area's not even worth drinking for). Toraen (talk) 03:17, 22 March 2018 (UTC)


 * All right thanks for the feedback it's done. Feel free to edit the build with any variants you think might be better. Rickyf16aus (talk) 01:54, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Imo general builds should function without pcons unless absolutely necessary for players who are new and don't have a lot of cash as well as players like myself who are cutting down on using pcons. Also, and this is just my opinion, I don't like the idea of needing to micro anything. Although the 7 Hero Player support features a Comm Rit hero, the idea of mapping, say, Vital Weapon to a hotkey, targeting yourself, hitting the hotkey, and waiting for the hero to finish what he or she is doing before it is finally cast on you, is not feasible. I think an alternative is to bring Brutal Weapon which will be a back up damage increase if Spirit Str gets stripped. Read the Sight Beyond Sight section for my opinion about Weapon of Aggression.--- IGN: Saxazax I (capital i) or Saxazax I I - (talk) 19:44, 15 April 2018 (UTC)(incorrect timestamp)
 * Vital Weapon isn't suggested for a hero to take, it's an optional skill for the player to take (you wouldn't be microing it). It's recommended over Brutal Weapon for self-casting because Brutal will only work ever if you get completely enchant stripped and your heroes don't recast any enchants on you (maybe in some teams this would be plausible but it's usually unlikely). Vital at least provides some consistent benefit, even if it is usually unnecessary. Of course, if you have heroes/players casting weapon spells you would not use Vital. Alcohol isn't listed as mandatory (just recommended) on the build so there's not really any problem there. Drunken Master is still the best IAS available because its only competition is WoA (which isn't worth its cost imo but probably still worth mentioning). Toraen (talk) 12:15, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
 * No builds exist in a vacuum. If this build requires another hero or player to work then both should be posted on the main build page. If it functions by itself, then that is not necessary. I forgot that Weapon of Aggression would last 19 seconds, not 10, from Spawning power. I think it is okay as an IAS, but it is not 33% IAS, which means your damage is potentially lowered by 8%. Not good. Perhaps it would be good to have WoA & Drunken Master--you would have 33%IAS and 15% IMS without alcohol. It is a fact that melee has the highest sustained DPS of any class. If you are going melee, you must be focused on DPS. I prefer unconditional effects to conditional ones.--- IGN: Saxazax I (capital i) or Saxazax I I - (talk) 19:44, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Combining WoA and Drunken Master is listed as an option on the page already. It's just not a great option because it eats up your energy and spends 2 skill slots on IAS. With an SS rit, you have to make some tough choices with your IAS because you can't have it all without sacrificing something (whether skill slots, benefits from other weapon spells, or money). As for posting the hero/player helper, that is also already done because it is mentioned in the notes next to the skills that a helper would have to take (please read the skill notes, you seem to just be looking at the listed skills). The build provides options for no helper (Vital, WoA) and with helpers (let them take Splinter, GDW or WoF) so it qualifies as a standalone bar but obviously gets better if you provide certain support. Full skill bars for the helper isn't necessary because they're only required to take one skill. The rest of their bar doesn't matter to this build. Toraen (talk) 05:18, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Sight Beyond Sight &c
Sight Beyond Sight is a much better option over Asuran Scan--prevents blind, covers Spirit Str (which is paramount). If a foe is blocking, just cycle (targets)--recharge times for dagger attacks are low. I do not like Weapon of Aggression. It has a low duration which means you need to stop for 1 second to cast it every 10 seconds or so, which lowers your dps greatly and makes positioning harder. I think Vital Weapon is the best option since you will need more health as a frontliner on a caster profession. Other issue is that your main damage source, Death Blossom--its aoe dmg is not affected by Spirit Str. Spirit Str is a skill for single target dmg. Maybe Repeating Strike would be good? As your build stands, you need Lotus Strike for ene management and there isn't any room.--Saxazaxx (talk) 16:59, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
 * In the following case I would have less of a problem with microing from a hero. If you brought Repeating Strike then Spirit Str would + damage on your primary target and if you can micro a hero to cast splinter weapon on you then you could have some nice, even damage.
 * SBS vs AScan is mostly a matter of which anti-melee you'll be facing. SS will be covered by your support heroes' enchantments anyway, and AScan lets you attack priority targets even if they block, which SBS can't help with. Spawning Power @16 means that Weapon of Aggression @10 will last ~19 seconds, not 10 seconds. It's still quite a lot worse than using Drunken Master with alcohol, but listed mostly for completion's sake on the page. DB's AoE not being affected by SS doesn't mean it suddenly does crap damage, no dagger spammer can buff that damage anyway so it's still doing its expected damage output. Repeating Strike is bad in comparison to spamming dual attacks even for single target DPS (can never double strike, has regular attack speed). To get the most out of SS (or any buff) you really need to attack faster via IAS, multi-hits, and fast attacks. This also DOES have room for Lotus Strike provided you let a hero/other player cast weapon spells on you, which is mentioned in the build write up. And if/when you run out of energy you still have autos that can double hit and are under IAS+SS (and you'll have enough energy to resume attack skill spam soon because zealous daggers). If you use a chain that has a higher recharge you just end up being forced into autoattacking after every chain anyway. If you use Repeating Strike, you still run out of energy ( in a similar timeframe even faster actually) and have much lower DPS. Toraen (talk) 11:28, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Derv or War
I think Spirit Str is better for a derv or war or even Ranger because they all have single skills which attacks multiple targets--inherent effect of scythes to hit 3 adjacent foes, Eremite's attack, Whirlwind Attack/Cyclone Axe/Sun and Moon Slash, Volley/Dual Shot/Triple Shot. All these hit skills hit multiple foes with 1 skill use, whereas Death Blossom's aoe damage is not increased by Spirit Str.--Saxazaxx (talk) 00:16, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Spawning Power (https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Spawning_Power) is the primary attribute of Ritualists so those other classes can not put any points into Spirit's Strength. Rickyf16aus (talk) 03:25, 14 April 2018 (UTC)[edit: reset indent--- IGN: Saxazax I (capital i) or Saxazax I I - (talk) 19:44, 15 April 2018 (UTC)]
 * I think he meant going Rt/W, Rt/D or Rt/R. While it's true those professions have AoE/multi-hit attacks, going Rt/A takes advantage of the high attack rate (dual and fast attacks) an assassin can achieve. Death Blossom isn't just an AoE effect, it's also a high damage spammable dual attack. Rt/W would certainly be easier on energy though (and is ok as long as you bring adrenaline boosting support). Toraen (talk) 11:34, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I might be old-fashioned but I always thought that your build should be all about your elite. It is a sort of a hierarchical conceptual scheme. Imagine you have 7 players doing unconditional damage--all of them are just doing 1 thing--and 1 monk. That would work pretty well. Imagine if you have 7 players doing conditional utility damage--all their builds have the potential of doing dozens or hundreds of things synergystically--and 1 monk. That would work pretty well too. I think it comes down to play style and preference. In my opinion, the elite is single target dmg so the build should conform. Sorry if I am pushing my agenda of challenging the 7 Hero Support utility meta.--- IGN: Saxazax I (capital i) or Saxazax I I - (talk) 19:44, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Death Blossom does provide high single target damage though. Remember that DB is fulfilling the multi-hit condition you want to hit like Sun and Moon Slash does, but every 3 seconds and with 40 bonus damage on each hit. You aren't trading away single target damage for DB's AoE, there's no dual attack to replace it (any one that has higher damage has much longer recharge).
 * Saying SS is a single target elite doesn't make sense either (and contradicts your first comment in this section). It affects any direct attacks and would work like SoH does on true AoE attacks like Whirlwind Attack. It's a general attack buff elite. Toraen (talk) 06:04, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Alternative
Here is an alternative build which I found can bypass the need for an IAS and spike down single foes quickly, which is what Spirit Str does best on a Sin. It is more of an off damage build, which is needed in all areas without a tank that balls foes. . Vital Weapon might be better and serve the purpose IAU which redirets some damage away from you, since NPCs target foes with less armor or health. I also was watching my heroes fight and I noticed that the melee always go for casters in the beginning of the fight, which surprised me. I almost always just mindlessly attack what ever comes my way but I was reminded that casters have lower armor so frontliners should always attack casters. It is true that Dagger attacks' damage is mostly armor ignoring (as well as dmg from Spirit Str), which means attacking meleers is not much less damage. And it's also true that stragglers from balled up enemies tend to be melee. I suppose your decision to take Vital Weapon or Brutal Weapon depends on the area and your team comp. But as an off damage melee build, it would help to have 1 skill which is IAS and IMS--Drunken Master. A spot could also be freed up if your have a lot of enchantments--i.e. Guardian--on your heroes: you can take out Sight Beyond Sight.........I really like the idea of Weapon of Fury. You say it can't compete with, say, SoS. But SoS is simply a crowd control skill and minor, single-target damage. Unconditional damage from SoS at 16 Chann is 30 dps (21 dmg per spirit * 3 spirits = 63 damage / 2 second attack interval for spirits = ~30 dps). It can't compete with, say, Esurge, which does: 99 dmg at 16 Dom * 5 foes = 495 dmg / (15*.52 reduced recharge from FC, 7.8) = 63 dps+ with a 40 40 set, and even greater if more foes are hit, or if Esurge is used with Arcane Echo. That's a damage elite. Also, spirits are stationary unlike minions, which create a meat wall to confront oncoming melee if you wait for the minion master--much better crowd control option than SoS. So I think Weapon of Fury is just fine to bring and can compete with SoS; bringing it will free up Lotus Strike from your bar, and your damage will be excellent.--Saxazaxx (talk) 00:16, 14 April 2018 (UTC) [edit: requires micro =(]

Equipment
+15ar while affected by a weapon spell--Ghost Forge Insignia--Saxazaxx (talk) 00:19, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
 * We could use that or instead we could take Radiant Insignias to have more energy along with Runes of Attunement. Rickyf16aus (talk) 03:25, 14 April 2018 (UTC) [edit: Resent indent. Ricky: indent succeeding comments with an additional colon.--- IGN: Saxazax I (capital i) or Saxazax I I - (talk) 19:13, 15 April 2018 (UTC)]
 * Frontliners need a lot of armor because they will be in enemy lines and vulnerable to enemy meleers. This is especially important if you only have 60 base armor rating--enemy npcs which can detect how much armor you have will make you a primary target if you have low armor.--- IGN: Saxazax I (capital i) or Saxazax I I - (talk) 19:13, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

12 Dagger Mastery
I agree from one of Toraen's comments floating around here that your main damage skill is Death Blossom. But this build needs to be at 12 dagger mastery and 3+1 Comm or Chann for a weapon spell if you're going to use one yourself, which is foolproof. 12 Dagger Mastery = +5 damage on Death Blossom per hit * 2 hits = 10 damage per hit / 2 seconds = +5DPS ideally. It's +5DPS on 1 target, +10 on 2 targets, and +25 on 5 targets. This is not to mention that 3 additional points of Dagger Mastery will increase critical hit chance and double strike chance. There are a few weapon spells from Comm and Chann that will have a decent duration at only 3+1 with 16 spawning. But I would recommend against 16 spawning because a frontliner needs lots of HP. The only way I could justify having 9 Dagger is if you bring Splinter weapon on your own bar, and maybe Warmonger's or Wailing Weapon when rupting or linebacking is more important than damage.--- IGN: Saxazax I (capital i) or Saxazax I I - (talk) 19:44, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Despite seeing the main purpose of spirit strength builds in dealing single target damage (for which death blossom is the best dual attack – the AoE damage is just a nice bonus) I agree that dagger mastery should be kept at 11 or preferably 12. Using weapon of aggression at 6+1 channeling magic combined with 11+1+2 spawning power the duration of your weapon spell is 16 seconds. That's perfectly sufficient. Unless you have people reliably using great dwarf weapon on you that's the best weapon spell choice anyway, given it pushes your ias to 25/33% (=33/50% more attacks in the same timeframe, resulting in triggering spirit strength and hopefully strength of honour 33/50% more often). No matter which self-used weapon spell you use you'll either need external energy support (BiP heroes will support you despite your martial weapons) or bring energy management attack skills. Such a self-sufficient ritualist could use Lotus Strike, Golden Lotus Strike and Golden Fang Strike in addition to death blossom. With BiP support you could easily switch back to JFD + Golden Lotus Strike. Given your focus on dealing single target damage that one's to be prefered over Fox Fangs anyway, regularly... --Krschkr (talk) 10:30, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Re: Above Sections
Let's stick with Rt/A for now. Here is my suggestion for an alternative bar:

Optionals:
 * Lotus Strike, Weapon of Aggression, Drunken Master
 * 6+1 Chan, 11+1+2 Spawn, 12 Dagger
 * Drunken Master, Twisting Fangs/Golden Fang Strike, optional - requires Weapon of Fury + alcohol
 * 12 Dagger, 12+1+1 spawn
 * Lotus Strike, Drunken Master, Golden Fang Strike/Asuran Scan/Sight Beyond Sight - requires weapon spell from hero or other player
 * 12 Dagger, 12+1+1 spawn
 * Splinter weapon placed on 2 heroes recommended, or on 1 hero with 7 spirits or long-recharge skills to ensure upkeep of Splinter

The first option combo requires no alcohol, and you manage your own weapon spell, maximum IAS, and energy management, which ensures continued DPS. You don't have to communicate between player party members, and you don't have to wait for heroes to prioritize you and give you your weapon spell, and no micromanagement is required. I see no problem with having 2 skills for IAS because it increases your attack speed to 33% while providing 15% faster movement without alcohol. The 7% increased attack speed that is lost provides a marginal benefit against skills like Faintheartedness, and a large benefit against such skills with alcohol as I understand it. Blindness must be managed by other players or heroes for this option. Blocking skills are a non-issue because of the low recharge of the attacks--you can simply switch targets.

Your weapon spell maintenance/ene management, and therefore DPS, might be better with the Weapon of Fury optionals because you are not stopping to cast Weapon of Aggression for a whole second every 16 seconds. On paper, during an hour-long mission, if you maintain Weapon of Aggression throughout the fight, casting it right after it ends, you would need to cast it 225 times (60 minutes*60 seconds=3,600 seconds/16 seconds per cast=225 casts). 100% DPS/3,600 seconds = x% DPS/3375seconds (total seconds after time loss from casting Weapon of Aggression without HCT mods - 1/4 second cast + 3/4 second aftercast delay = 1 second per cast). Cross-multiply: 3600x% = 3375*100%. Simplify: 3600x% = 337,500%. Simplify: x% = 337,500%/3600. Answer: DPS casting Weapon of Aggression optimally results in 93.75% DPS over a 1 hour mission.

The second option requires alcohol and a hero to give you Weapon of Fury, which is also a great option because it frees up your bar to use Deep Wound.

The third option with Splinter Weapon might be the most DPS but is the most volatile because you are requiring 1 or two heroes to maintain your weapon spell which ends after 5 attacks, or 1 use of each of your 4 dagger attacks, then that leaves a lot of room for error. This option would require micromanagement, alcohol, or a reliable player to keep Splinter on you. It would be optimal to have the hero casting Splinter Weapon on you to have a bar with lots of Channeling spells--if the hero or player is using a 40/40 set, he or she will have no weapon swap delay, so the skill could be cast and re cast faster than if the player was casting any weapon spell on him or herself.

You might be fine with this hero: Rt/Mo 8 spawn, 12 chan, 10 comm --- IGN: Saxazax I (capital i) or Saxazax I I - (talk) 17:50, 16 April 2018 (UTC)