Build talk:R/A Whirling Defense Farmer

I will make a video soonish. Works quite well, though unfortunately not in HM :< + ℓγ ss άή [rage]  01:02, March 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Could always use a bonder for HM, also wouldn't you get Vengeful Weapon spiked? --[[File:Samsig.png]] 02:18, March 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * "Dead in 3-5 seconds". So no on that vengeful spike. Probably less to be honest. Take a echo MoP necro with you for a 1/4 second kill. I did that on snowmen and laughed so hard I had to lay down on the ground. Docta Jenkins 07:57, March 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Why would I bother taking a hero if I can just do it by myself anyways? + ℓγ ss άή [rage]  22:58, March 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * ^ Heros are for lamers. Docta Jenkins 23:41, March 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * The video would be greatly appreciated, as i cant figger out where to pull them to. Da Sonic 00:47, March 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Build works pretty well. I use Shroud of Distress instead of WotM, but they each work well.--69.133.42.192 03:47, March 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * ^Me. Sorry, didn't realize I wasn't logged in :( --TyDy 03:53, March 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Why not mainbar Shroud over Way of the Master? Not like 3/4 second cast time and 5 energy is gonna make a huge difference 174.6.141.39 05:59, March 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Video is coming soon, I am just saving it to correct format and uploading it to Youtube. And about Shroud > WoTM, it costs much less energy to maintain, and it states right below the bar that if you are having troubles with damage you should take Shroud anyways, so it shouldn't particularly matter. + ℓγ ss άή [rage]  20:41, March 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * added video + ℓγ ss άή [rage]  20:58, March 26, 2010 (UTC)

Okay seriously, the retarded IP who keeps trolling this page and insists that the build 100% originated from The Ranger's Beacons needs to fuck off. EDIT: Thank you KJ + <font color="#004466">ℓγ <font color="#005566">ss <font color="#006666">άή <font color="#007766">[rage]  21:20, March 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * nice one lyssa :D-- Relyk  talk  22:14, March 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * nice video man keep up the good work Kansan101 00:04, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

This build also works perfectly on Assassin... It's just takes a bit longer, but normally you can kill them all in one Whirling Defense. Konschu 10:17, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Variants
I tried winnowing and it works well as opposed to BUH as long as you ball and kill them quick enough. Adds more damage then BUH. Not really necessery but a nice variant 82.18.120.187 15:49, March 29, 2010 (UTC)

Vaettir farm?
trying out now--GWPirate 09:12, April 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Read Whirling Defense again. Life   Guardian  09:15, April 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah found it out xD, they dont use ranged atks. Might need to find some other form of dommage--GWPirate 09:23, April 5, 2010 (UTC)

O.o
why the hell this gets great and the pre-nerf R/E variant was voted trash if im rite. sad....I love that 1. it was sumtin like this: [build prof=R/E Expertise=11+3+1 EarthMagic=12 WildernessSurvival=6][Storm Chaser][Armor of Earth][Stoneflesh aura][mental block][By Urals Hammer][Obsidian Flesh][Dwarven Stability][Whirling defense][/build] Falrach 17:26, April 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Didnt that one require a hero? i at least used it :P--GWPirate 17:45, April 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Nah, i ran an ele one that didn't require a hero. It was pretty similar to the one above. This one probably got a great rating because it flips the finger to the shadow form nerf. 71.166.45.50 22:44, June 3, 2010 (UTC)

Also
Can also be used to farm the elementalists outside olafstead. Note that only the imps give energy. kill the elementals first so you continue to gain energy from the imps. can easily clear the place. watch out for any minotors though. Zedone2 02:48, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Btw, do you reckon this can do Arachni's Haunt? ill try it tomorrow. Zedone2 11:53, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Arachni's haunt is hard becuz of 1 thing, there are rupts like there is no tomorrow, but if you grab a bonder you mite be able to farm HM destroyers. Falrach 13:37, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Arachni's lmfao. That would be amazing. Just take rainbow rock candy and you should be fine :D

It can farm Icy Dragon swords too just take cupcakes or a running skill, and replace skill 3-4 with shroud of distress and Ebon Battle Standard of Honor or any other asassin ench for more dmg reduction
 * I hate rangers, why are you guys making me have to play them? QQ 204.87.204.110 20:48, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

losing aggro
Yeeeahhh, storm chaser makes you more liable to lose aggro... Ever tried walking backwards with one finger on z ? lol Pastafarian Hunter 22:27, May 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Walking backwards works fine, just don't be stupid and lose aggro with Storm Chaser, it's not that hard. + <font color="#004466">ℓγ <font color="#005566">ss <font color="#006666">άή <font color="#007766">[rage]  16:29, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

HM DESTRO FARM
Some guy in CtC told me how to. this build: OgcTcRs+ZiHRnhA6AiVMu84Q4AA Run around dodging the projectiles--GWPirate 20:46, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

FoW
i'm curious as to if this could farm the spider cave in FoW, sure are plenty of ranged attacks there. may take a bit more defense to pull it off, but i'm sure it could be done. Da Sonic 20:33, July 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * They have interrupts =/ It could prolly be done, but it would be very luck-based. --[[File:Samsig.png]] 22:08, July 18, 2010 (UTC)

I think im gonna test this now Blacc 10:38, July 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Mental Block+Whirling Defense and maybe Shroud of Distress would be like raptor farming-- Relyk  talk  10:47, July 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Raptors dont have lasers, nor projectiles--<font color="Blue" face="cambria">Pirate 10:46, July 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * they do have interrupts and there are a lot of them-- Relyk  talk  11:10, July 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * So how you gonna dmg them--<font color="Blue" face="cambria">Pirate 11:11, July 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * Raptors will not trigger WD....don't be dumb--<font color="#0000ff"> X <font color="#696969"> TREME 11:59, July 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * i hope you guys realize it was a analogy...-- Relyk  talk  06:12, August 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thats true Carlos03 16:24, September 3, 2010 (UTC)

Rentability
Wished to farm a bit in order to get gloves but seriously, even if build works it's not interesting at all. ~4-5 minutes a run and 1-4 cores (+eventually a gold or lockpick). Better to farm raptor and sell the golds you get there (~1-2 min run and 1 gold per run -> unid gold can be sold for ~600 easily -> at least 2 dcore / 2 mins). NB. You can't even do 2nd wave... I came, I saw, I tried... back to others builds :D
 * Do it in HM like a pro.--<font color="Blue" face="cambria">Pirate 00:28, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Moss Dragons
I used this build to farm the Moss Dragons in HM. (Not to destroyers yet)... Using a totem axe and the bison cup. 74.42.188.203 08:03, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

^ Twas me by the way, before I made an account. I'd suggest changing the walkthrough for moss dragons, after doing the farm quite a bit I've been able to finish it in only 1 recast of SF:

You need "A New Escort" quest for the Moss Dragons to spawn.
 * Start outside St. Anjeka's Shrine, use Deadly Paradox, Shroud of Distress, Way of the Master, Way of Perfection, and then storm chaser to run out to the dragons.
 * Pause just outside of aggro range and use: Deadly Paradox -> Shadow Form.
 * Aggro the groups, and turn around and run along the cliff to ball. (I'll take a screenshot when I get home as at first I wasn't sure what edge to use)
 * Cast Deadly Paradox -> Shadow Form at the stop, then Storm Chaser to the group to build your energy back up.
 * Use Whirling Defense and "By Ural's Hammer!", then recast Shroud of Distress, Way of the Master, Way of Perfection.
 * Collect Drops and repeat.

I'm not sure what the policy is of others adding to the build so its here in talk for now. MonstaInYoWoods 20:40, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * I dont know if you guys read the article, but moss dragon farm is already on the page-- Relyk  talk  22:28, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yea, I was just stating that its possible in hard mode, then suggesting a new walk-through. But I'm under the impression that a wiki tries to give the best information it can. *shrug* MonstaInYoWoods 22:31, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the usage listed is adequate, you can upload a screenshot and change the usage if you think it's necessary.-- Relyk  talk  00:31, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * As on relyk's pages, use Death's Charge and Dwarven Stability instead of WoP & WoTM. You can also aggro the wardens too, and if you're pro you can nuke them all at once (rangers, dragons + melee) :) --Chieftain Alex 13:19, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The R/E version for dragon moss is still way more manlier. Falrach 14:39, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

A/R Solo
I soloed the mantids, glint's, dragon moss and Snowman's Lair over many times now with this build now

[build prof=A/R wil=10 sha=12 cri=8][Deadly Paradox][Shadow Form][Shroud of Distress][Death's Charge][Dwarven Stability][Whirling Defense]["By Ural's Hammer!"][Winnowing][/build]


 * 1 in Glint's Challenge you pull the group up to the bridge above one of the entrances, target, dwarven stability + winnowing, Death's Charge + whirling Defense + BUH
 * 2 in Mantid farm you pull em to a corner so you can place winnowing just behind it. DC + whirling defense.
 * 3 Dragon Moss + Snowman's Lair not needed for winnowing


 * R/A just moar pro, sorry m8. over the average, sins got much better options then this, but rangers dont, so thats why its R/A and not A/R. savvy? Falrach 13:47, September 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Great Ed, just the respond i was waiting for. Not everyone has a Ranger, that's why i made up this build for A/R which works just as clean. Added: Tombs + Bonder Eiion X 16:02, September 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * A)why the heck you want to farm Tombs.
 * B)why would you farm these farms when you can farm better stuff on Sin
 * C)A/R has been around for a while, and are those farms even in HM? Falrach 20:05, September 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * A) i just say tombs cuz i like tombs
 * B) tell me which stuff on sin? trough SC's yes, but normal farms? don't think so.
 * C) only Glint's isn't in hardmode, just as ranger isn't. So i don't think this build is all to bad Eiion X 10:15, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Let me see, we got dungeonsolos/duos, the moebius farmer, Boss farmer, vaettir farmer and a hella lot other things i didn't find in ~20 sec of searching. Also, im working on a HM solo bar for glints. Falrach 11:30, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Did it, solo glints on HM then. its something your sin bar wont be able to tho.
 * (optional can either be DC or WotM) Falrach 16:36, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Boom dead, tried tanking glint's couple of times with the build, even with piercing armor. I made it till 2.55 then aggro was to much to tank, even with dodging. Post a SS then ;) and i'm not saying sins can't do anything else, but some ppl might like this stuff on a sin. So stop the crap. Eiion X 09:23, September 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * File:PROOF.jpgSee? now shut up. Falrach 13:45, September 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * R/A? i said A/R, now shut up yourself thx :) Eiion X 13:47, September 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Why so unfriendly guys ^__^ -- DANDY ^_^ -- 14:21, September 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * How about both of you stop being hostile and talk in a calm manner. <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  14:22, September 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * don't think that'll work. Usually it works like this:We are in a guild/group/wutever 1 of us does something other doesn't like, we rage each other, ignore for bout a week, then realize we somehow got in a group/guild together again and the process starts again. prolly he's gonna say that it's always me now. Falrach 15:21, September 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah but you're smarter than that, and can make a change. -- DANDY ^_^ -- 15:24, September 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * I am sorta, he aint. and you still get trolled even tho your smart enough rite? Falrach 17:37, September 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm quite sure that would be "he isn't" with proper grammar.--83.82.62.210 22:08, September 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm quite sure that would be "he isn't" with proper grammar.--83.82.62.210 22:08, September 30, 2010 (UTC)

Is anyone going to state the obvious? Whirling defense is an Ranger primary Expertise stance, so cannot be carried by any Sin &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 78.86.135.118 (talk &bull; contribs).
 * Yes, it can. It won't do much damage per hit or last very long, but there's so many triggers it doesn't matter. <font face="Courier New" color="Black">Toraen <font face="Courier New" color="DarkGoldenrod">TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png]] 03:20, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
 * You can still equip skills from your secondary's primary attribute, you just can't invest attribute points into them. In some scenarios whirling can still kill on a sin primary without any att investment--TahiriVeila 03:21, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
 * @IP address, think of all those mesmers/monks/sins using Glyph of Lesser Energy, and a few other primary skills. Doesn't matter if you can't put points in, some skills are still good to use. --Sam6555 07:19, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

^ Sorry if I'm being stupid. How do I load Whirling Defense onto my A/R bar, the expertise range of skills are not listed as being available to slect from? TIA
 * Did you buy/unlock it?--GWPirate 09:43, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Ok, found the problem :) As I had never used any Expertise skills the entire range was not listed to choose from. However, having visited a skills dude, he's offering me Expertise skills. Bought one and now the Expertise catagory exists in my skill selection range. Thanks for your help!
 * To serve and protect.--GWPirate 14:59, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Nerfed build
Um... this build was nerfed, wasn't it? I mean the changes to By Ural's hammer made it so it doesn't do additional damage anymore. Shouldn't this build be adjusted, remade, or moved to the nerfed section?
 * Just drop BuH, it was never really needed. As long as your mob is a decent size, they blow up fast anyway and will never scatter. -- <font face="Courier New" color="Black">Toraen <font face="Courier New" color="DarkGoldenrod">TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png|link=User:Toraen]] 02:17, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Destroyers
Why not on HM? I proved it to work few sections up, it's actually pretty easy. Falrach 21:57, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Destroyer core drop rate doesnt change right?-- GWPirate 关 22:14, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
 * no, but goldies do and dwarf points aswell iirc. Plus it takes just as long and when you get used to it ain't any harder. Falrach 23:22, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Go ahead and edit the build then. -- <font face="Courier New" color="Black">Toraen <font face="Courier New" color="DarkGoldenrod">TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png|link=User:Toraen]] 04:29, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Same reason you farm nick items in NM, trophies may not have a higher drop rate in HM, but everything else does. Common sense suggests therefore that NM is better because you're getting less of the other stuff, and therefore more cores.
 * Thing is, goldies are worth more then destroyer cores, but generally less then nick items. They sell better then D-Cores anyway. Falrach 16:15, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Ice Imps/IDS farm
Discuss?-- GWPirate 关 16:13, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Easily doable on NM, haven't tested on HM. Imps are split into two groups that can't be pulled together, so it takes quite a time to kill stuff. Damage on NM is negligible, SF + one ench and you get zeroes. The base build is able to safely run to the Ice Cave. 217.113.225.44 16:13, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Ice Wastes
This build can be used to farm smite crawlers in UW on NM: [build prof=R/A wil=3 sha=12 exp=12+1+3][Deadly Paradox][Shadow Form][Shroud of Distress][Dwarven Stability][Storm Chaser][Whirling Defense][Heart of Shadow][Death's Charge][/build] You'll need heroes to do the lab quest tho, since that can't be soloed. The smites wil die in one cast of Whirling Defense(at Delver Rank 8) if you got about 12 coldfires aggroed. You can kill all the smites in under 15 minutes, Lab quest and the run to wastes included. 82.73.48.42 19:40, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Dragon Moss
Why would you farm them, they do not drop anything ?
 * echovalds are worth quite a bit, and the drop rate on them isnt that bad. its not one a run but if you get to survivor youll probably get 4 or 5, and maybe one of them will be worth XXe
 * duo mod echovalds easily sell for 100e+--TahiriVeila 15:26, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeh i know echovalds are worth good money but i dident know they drop from dragon moss, i thought only from stone kirins. Are you sure?--Plobmaster 14:55, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

OMG, yesterday i farmed Dragon Mooses for 7 hours straight, took me 1 Minute to complete each run so i did about 420 runs got only 2 echovalds with shit mods. Today i did 300 runs and not a single echovald. Am i unlucky or are drops really low?--Plobmaster 20:34, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Echovald shields
Am i the only one getting only 1 shield in 3 days of farming Dragon Moss or are the drops horse shit?--Plobmaster 11:49, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Drop rate is real low on echos.--TahiriVeila 23:04, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Destroyers
I recently came back to destroyer farming, just as something to do, and found that I always died. After a few more tests it turns out I am being hit by Vengeful weapon when I use whirling defenses. Does anyone else having this problem and what can I do to fix it?-- Ultimak719 LIKE A BOSS!  22:13, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
 * If it's HM, blame it on the health buff buying them too much time. Otherwise it shouldn't be happening. You can try bringing Winnowing as well. Might not be enough room.-- Relyk 22:21, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
 * That isn't the problem, I can kill them easily, but I am hit by Vengeful so I die. I don;t know why cause I used to be able to do it fine.-- Ultimak719 LIKE A BOSS!  23:41, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I just tried it normal mode and had the exact same problem. Hit by venegeful...-- Ultimak719 LIKE A BOSS!  23:48, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
 * They fixed that ages ago dude. You must have either A. been gone for a looooong time. or B. are using an inferior build.  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  Mission control out.  23:50, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Ultimak is an old contributor. If you don't kill the group fast enough, the Ritualists will have enough time to use vengeful weapon. This is why you can't sliver them. Due to the health boost in HM, it may now be impossible to get a clean kill without using Winnowing and EoE.-- Relyk 10:01, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
 * No clue, I don't have a ranger so I can't verify.  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  10:05, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Idk if anyone is interested, but I tested and it still works. I was using two stalwart insignias, one blessed and two survivor (hardly optimal equipment), and as long as you renew everything as it recharges (space out the 5e skills between casts of SF) you'll be k. I was finding it tricky to ball rangers into rits, but I'm a noob so whatever. I killed the ranger ball first so the rits could provide me with energy after. <font face="Calibri" color=black>Chieftain Alex 14:39, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Forest Trouble
I can get to the forest and pull all the groups in the second part of the farm just fine. However I am having an issue with the very first group of Spirit Shepherds, they run (more like walk slowly) away after I grab the patrols around the corner of the hill (that's the only group I can't manage to pull into the ball). My second issue: when I ball together the shepherds on the second half of the forest and deaths charge + whirling defense I sometimes die because of lightning touch. is there a way to counter that? 173.69.63.43 22:27, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
 * You can't pull the first group far enough sadly. It's not really worth the effort either because you'll end up in range of spiders trying to. You counter Lightning Touch with feigned neutrality. There is an example video at the bottom of the page :)-- Relyk 01:44, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks Relyk, I didn't notice the vids at the bottom. Also, on my shield I have +10 armor vs piercing, should I be using +10 vs lightning?(the ip above was me, i forgot I had and account lol) ShinraGuardian 04:20, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Piercing is a good idea but when in doubt you can always bring two shields!  Rask ✂  ✂  ✂  ✂  06:17, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Looks like I figured out why I was dying. Turns out I was casting Feigned Neutrality -> Death's Charge -> Whirling Defense.  Just read that Feigned ends if you attack or use a skill ShinraGuardian 14:26, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Forest / Lightning Touch
Thoughts from a random:
 * Use a staff, AI doesn't like using touch skills on you.
 * Use a wand and a shield + weapon swap between staff if you want the armor (lol wands)
 * Maybe lightning touch isn't an issue given you have ranger armor. <font face="Constantia" color=#D2691E>Cɥıǝɟʇɐıu Alǝx  12:57, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
 * The cracked armor does hurt, although my equipment wasn't optimized against lightning. I'll try a staff the next time I log on though (might be a while) to see if it affects their behavior. -- Toraen   confer  05:04, 4 February 2013 (UTC)


 * I've tagged along with quite a few fowsc pug groups since I wrote that, and apparently most groups use the team to spike the forest of the wailing lord wolf.. which to me implies that you're correct + they use touch skills a lot more. (and also I've seen more tanks screwing up.. pug though so can't judge that) <font face="Constantia" color=#D2691E>Cɥıǝɟʇɐıu Alǝx  12:07, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Super late on this, but as it turns out: ...but their constant use of LTouch makes balling them far too much hassle and even when you've got them balled they're auto-attacking less so you can't kill them in one whirling. -- Toraen  wiki  18:35, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Using a staff doesn't stop the spam
 * lol wands
 * You can survive the lightning touch spam (in NM at least) with a lightning shield and insignia...

Meta?
I'd like to suggest a meta tag for this. Extremely popular amongst both players and bots, one of the best SF builds around. Efficient and can be applied to a lot of areas. --DefinitelyNotHanz (talk) 19:09, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
 * If it's extremely popular it has to get the meta tag. Might be a solution for the ministerial recommendation farm build, by the way, if you think that it's popular enough to be considered meta. --Krschkr (talk) 19:26, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
 * That's an extremely good farm but also relatively unpopular imo, because of its requirements and how late it was added (although there's a guy who's botting it with a dozen alts 24/7 if that counts) --DefinitelyNotHanz (talk) 19:50, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Eh... let's not count bots as people. --Krschkr (talk) 19:56, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Fair enough :P --DefinitelyNotHanz (talk) 21:51, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Can these farms not have their own pages?
I think its great to have pages of this nature but, some of these farms are outdated and some of them require a lot of different things. Why can they not have their own pages to properly give the farms the attention they deserve? Or, can they and just nobody has done it? Shadeinthebox (talk) 20:38, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
 * You'd get at least 7 build pages that would have to be curated each on their own and would have to be rated each on their own, resulting in having 7 untested and abandoned builds without any attention instead of one rated, informative page that shows up in the rated category and is thus very visible. There's no good reason to split this page into a plethora of mostly identical build pages, it only causes additional work and decreases the usefulness of the wiki for users. --Krschkr (talk) 21:13, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
 * But see thats your personal opinion, multiple people are in favor of having both, as throwing them all in one page makes it a) hard for people to see specific farms they want to find, and b) reduces the quality of the information presented. It would be nice to have a condensed page that links to all of the pages that build type involves. This issue has been raised to attention multiple times lately so im trying again to offer complete valid points that im not alone in. Shadeinthebox (talk) 21:43, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
 * This page is already very long, making it hard to read, and it's not even close to being comprehensive. If you move each of the individual farms onto their own page, this one would be great for an overview of the build archetype. Houroftheowl (talk) 21:58, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I think the topic of split vs consolidate farms was discussed somewhere recently, maybe an Ele or Derv or Rt build, I don’t remember. Anyway, some additional thoughts to consider
 * Individual builds
 * Pros-
 * allows user to search/browse for a specific farm by way of descriptive build names
 * Voting can be tailored to specific build instead of generic build with varying effectiveness
 * Allows for link to archetype / guide to avoid redundancies
 * Cons-
 * Burden of maintaining potentially multiple similar builds
 * Archetype/guide pages might get easily looked over by a user considering how cluttered the pvx home page is


 * Consolidated builds
 * Pros-
 * Centralized page easily modified as build variants are expanded/removed
 * Voting is less sensitive to poorer performing variants as it can be primarily rated by its best use
 * General use and instructions are not repeated for each individual build
 * Cons-
 * Distills the build name to something less than helpful by being too generic
 * Can push through bad build variants by grouping with good ones
 * Can bloat pages to the point that they are difficult to navigate and don’t properly reflect nuance between variants
 * IMO, in this case if content creators are willing to put in the work, individual build pages seem advantageous to me. Juniper real (talk) 23:56, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I'd like to keep the Dervish pages separate as well, but I don't see a problem with this one. Which spots would you guys like to split? Honestly this page doesn't have that many listed farm spots and many are nothing special, like Snowmen. --DefinitelyNotHanz (talk) 09:36, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Well let me just hit a few points. Probably same reason you want derv ones seperate apply here too. The build arch type itself is flawed. Not every farm will use storm chaser, and not every will even use deadly paradox. The "option skills" list can even be added to and it's already massive one. The farms themselves have crap descriptions on how to perform them and ZERO visability. If I want to farm mantids and idk what farms mantids, oh I don't see a build for farming mantids. That's bc it locked behind a whirling defense farming page with very little given about each farm. (Assuming I hadn't made the assassin version page already...which thankfully at least that's there). I fully agree having pages like this are nice and beneficial if it's to supplement the pages themselves not override them for the whole community. If anything, choosing condensed pages of similar things over pages themselves, you should at least separate it by farm not by build. A mantid farmer page for example with all it's versions and builds. But this is just no good as is.. and multiple people feel that way. And if there was pages for some of these builds at a time, I hope they were archived and not deleted but idk. Either way, we should be able to have a say on something like this but instead it's all up to one person so. I wouldn't mind making the pages (possibly again) for the ones I know, such as dragon moss and mantids etc to show the benefits if I knew they wouldn't get deleted but I can't even trust that atm. Shadeinthebox (talk) 12:54, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Just a suggestion, but we should probably aim for a middle ground. Not every farm needs its own page, but cramming every similar build into one page isn't ideal either. How about keeping a general Whirling farm build with maybe 1 or 2 optionals, and every farm that this build doesn't fit gets its own page? In this case that'd mean a separate build page for Destroyer Cores and Tower of Courage. Possibly Mantid farm as well, but there's already an A/R page dedicated to it so we could just link to that for further instructions. --DefinitelyNotHanz (talk) 16:20, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Well how would you deal with the mantid farm specifically then? The A/R version i made is easier, but slower by around 10-15 seconds? Dont quite remember. But the ranger one is more difficult, yet faster. Would you have 2 pages A/R and then another page R/A so people see it can be both, or would you just have 1 and then have the other as optional? If the latter option, which of the 2 would you think would be the main page, sin or ranger? I am not sure how it should be I just firmly believe most need their own page, and would benefit from a condensed page like this as well, just not over riding them. Shadeinthebox (talk) 16:29, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
 * That's a good question, not sure what to do with farms like A/R R/A and Me/A A/Me where both professions' skills are equally important to making a build work, yet I don't think we need two pages because they are more or less the same. I'm leaning towards keeping the A/R page with a R/A variant listed, and leaving vague instructions on this page while having a link to the A/R page for more details. So in general one class should have a condensed page (in this case, Ranger) while the secondary profession (Assassin) would get a few individual pages targeted at specific farms, maybe? --DefinitelyNotHanz (talk) 18:14, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I agree with keeping the A/R page as is with the R/A variant. However, I would also argue to leave this Mantid version the same.  When I added the R/A variant to the assassin page, I thought of deleting this one, but I figured that the other uses a different tactic with Shadow of Haste.  This one is slightly slower and easier to use and follows the tactics of the other farms listed here.  I say keep it because it is still possible to do it safely and reliably with the build listed on this page.  As far as merging/unmerging pages goes, I am in favor of keeping it like this.  We have talked about merging/unmerging other pages at length in other places.  I think the general consensus was that we wanted to keep the farming pages narrowed down to tactics and general builds trying to keep the tactics roughly the same.  However, if two very similar or exact builds existed, but the way of using them was completely different for two different farms or methods, they should have different pages; like the R/A & A/R example. If we split everything up into farming location, there would be a lot of pages with a lot of similar information on them.Mozo (talk) 03:58, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
 * But then how do you expect people to find specific farms if they are all listed just under build archetypes? And, why are you okay with the quality of the farming information present to be decreased greatly just to not have some similar information on multiple pages? Shadeinthebox (talk) 16:33, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Farms that are famous enough that people will be looking for them should probably have their own pages (like UW or Vaettirs). But not everything needs its own page. Like, do we really need a ranger page for farming Tusked Howlers? Pages with multiple spots are useful for covering a wide variety of lesser farms. --DefinitelyNotHanz (talk) 13:31, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Well that didnt address any of the issues I presented. Shadeinthebox (talk) 16:17, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
 * You want specific farms to be visible by making separate pages for them. I said that the "big" farms should have their own pages to be more visible. How is that not addressing what you've said? --DefinitelyNotHanz (talk) 17:02, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
 * What counts as a big farm? And why should some farms be hidden and non visable compared to others? Also addressing the quality issue that gets lowered by only using large pages? I dont think there is a simple answer, just keeping the talk going. Just choosing specific farms to get the proper treatment is better than it is now but I do not think thats the proper fix for the pvx overall. Shadeinthebox (talk) 08:44, 3 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Take this page for instance: https://gwpvx.gamepedia.com/Build:E/Mo_330hp_Sliver_Farmer Do we really need to split this off into a dozen different pages? In my eyes there are two types of farm builds: one that works in a bunch of areas and we're just providing a tool for the wider community to use for whatever they want; and another that's a very specific build that farms a specific area (often for a specific item). A/R Mantid farmer falls into the second category for me, same as Vaettir/Raptor/Fow/UW builds. Most of these are unique not just because of the build but also due to the loot tables containing rare and valuable stuff (by that I mean ectos, Celestial weapons, etc.) If let's say we have two near identical builds, one for farming Jade Brotherhood Knights and one for Tusked Howlers, I don't see why we'd need two pages for it. That's my thought process at least. --DefinitelyNotHanz (talk) 15:21, 3 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Why do we have a a/me page for vaettirs, and a me/a page for vaettirs then, this really confuses me? And that is one way of looking at it. "Hey im an ele what can I farm" boom. But i think more people will come on pvx saying "i want to farm this specific thing, lets check pvx" and theres nothing named that bc it is hidden in other pages. How do we fix that? One idea i had was naming condensed pages by the farm name instead of build type. But that doesnt really fit into the set up as much as a build arch type. Also, as the one mod told me before, only the best options are suppose to be on the site anyways. So yeah, what is wrong with have more pages on the whole wiki to show farms with their most optimal build? If there are a few different options that equally compare to it, then combine them into one, but that doesnt always happen. I personally just dont see the issue with trying to make the entire pvx as baren as possible and sacrifice the quality of builds. Personally. With what you said I can see a lot better as to why to do these pages, but I still am not seeing why this type of page has to be used instead, versus in supplement to, build pages themselves. Doesnt seem like anything is going to change though so we should probably just not bother carrying this discussion out farther. Shadeinthebox (talk) 17:09, 3 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Hey don't be so doom and gloom, things are always worth discussing :P I agree that pvx doesn't have to cut back on pages right now because we're in no danger of a new release flooding us with new farms. All I'm trying to say is that not everything needs a page and it's impossible to set up proper rules for what's worth storing individually and what isn't, not everything can be standardized. We should discuss things on a case by case basis and work from there, so if you think spot XYZ deserves its own page, get a discussion rolling on that page. Eventually we'll sort it out <3 --DefinitelyNotHanz (talk) 19:25, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

It sounds like the mantid farm featured on this page isn’t satisfactory, there’s a proposed better way to present the info by creating a novel build, improved over the one at the top of this conglomerate page. I look forward to seeing the improvement. After it’s done I’m sure it’ll be easy enough to delete the messy mantid notes here and just link the new build. Juniper real (talk) 21:57, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
 * If I made it, to me, it looks as if it would just get removed though?Shadeinthebox (talk) 16:17, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Pages don't get removed without discussion. I'd say give it a shot. --DefinitelyNotHanz (talk) 16:46, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
 * As I am not sure the best way to approach this pages aspect of it, all of its current information was 99% wrong, so I removed almost all of it. Any help as to the best way to present the information for it (I did link to the page I made) would be greatly appreciated. Shadeinthebox (talk) 23:58, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Alright, I will make it today. Shadeinthebox (talk) 17:10, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
 * The ranger method is already talked about in A/R Mantid Farmer with a video. I feel like this version (with shadow of haste) of the farm does not fit the general tactics that this page has.  Therefore, I think the old way, even though it may be slower and out of date, should stay here, and the shadow of haste version should have its own page, or stay with the A/R version.  Mozo (talk) 04:36, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Just saw the newly created page. Once that gets out of testing, I say we remove the Shadow of Haste version from this page and keep the old version that sticks with the tactics here. Mozo (talk) 04:40, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Why would you want to keep a significantly worse version, that followed this page barely any anyways? Shadeinthebox (talk) 17:20, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
 * It only adds an additional 20 seconds and is just as safe. My thought is that there are some people that would have trouble with the shadow of haste concept.  Mozo (talk) 01:36, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Mantid Farming
I do not like how the Mantid Farm appears here especially since it has it's own page. I'd vote for either returning it to the previous version without Shadow of Haste (IE. The slower one) to match the pages' tactics, or delete it from this page all together and just leave the link to Mantid Farming in the "See Also" section. Mozo (talk) 00:53, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
 * The other build could be included on this page with the Variantbar template (meaning it would inherit the ratings of this build), but separate pages is fine too if we don't want to do that. We shouldn't store the slower version imo, if we do separate pages a link in the See Also is sufficient. -Toraen (talk) 19:11, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Gargoyle Farming
I made this Gargoyles Farming Video and was going to replace the current video on this page with it because I show how to farm more than just the first group along with some commentary. I don't like to replace other people's video's unless needed and other people agree. Mozo (talk) 00:14, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Seems like a good replacement. It's a pretty easy farm (imo pretty much the training wheels farm for this build) but commentary is always appreciated. -Toraen (talk) 16:59, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Replaced. Even without the commentary your version seems superior due to showing additional parts of the map to farm in the same run. --Krschkr (talk) 22:57, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

Dragon moss bar
It looks a bit unnecessarily overcomplicated. There are 2 shadowstep skills that only serve to shave 1 or maybe 2 seconds off the run, and even more is suggested for variants. I think at least the advanced variant should be removed. --DefinitelyNotHanz (talk) 08:07, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Suneh Stormbringer & Hassin Softskin
Why are they a noteworthy farm? Do they drop anything of interest? --Krschkr (talk) 14:59, 3 April 2021 (UTC)