Archive talk:Team - 7 Hero Player Support

Paragon Anthems Not Useful
Don't use the paragon. Or replace all anthems with something else. Minions do not trigger anthems and NONE of the other heroes will. They only person that will trigger them is you, and maybe the Paragon if u build it to. RoJ way better unless you change all of the skills of the Paragon to buffs allies or triggers on attacks not attack skills
 * Did it ever cross your mind that all the Spirits trigger Anthems? --Master Elros 09:07, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah but they always attacking same target so the effects get dampened. If every spirit was hitting a different target then it would be useful. But the RoJ monk smites hexes and conditions, has an extra heal, and a ton more damage. I've run this build on a new character through all 3 campaigns and EoTN. And the elite missions at the end of each one. Things go a lot smoother when I run the RoJ. My character is a barrage ranger so it may be different for another player but just seems all casters make anthems useless.
 * The command para in general just isn't that great, but Anthem of Envy is actually one of its better skills. Though as a barrage ranger, GftE should be very helpful for you to actually deal some non-shit damage. Of course, if you're playing the game seriously at all you'll end up with something like this, so this argument is slightly pointless because the 7HPS setup is basically supposed to be more defensive for gwnubs than the most efficient build possible. -- Jai . -  10:42, July 29 2011 (UTC)
 * RoJway 7hps is pretty bad considering fire is the most commonly resisted element in the game. I run this build with a barrage ranger and have cleared every single dungeon in the game on hard mode with just them. Sometimes you gotta mod it a little but it's agood build that doesn't require waiting around for 45 minutes looking for people with the right build to run hard mode. Or paying 100000e in runs. Overall good build.
 * RoJway is far more efficient than this. Fire may be the most commonly resisted element, but what does that have to do with it? Also sign. [[Image:Denardraw_sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Denardraw]] Dêñår  drāŵ  09:46, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Uhm it might not effect it much from fire being resisted but when i waste time trying to get shit to ball properly so the RoJ will nuke everything just right so i don't have left overs, i lose on efficiency.... not to mention the fact that even elite areas are like pie when you just know how to play so therefore rojway is over doing it... just so you can watch shit die in a neat little pile compared to randomly scattered because i c+spaced it to nothing-ness 65.191.246.62 01:54, 7 August 2011 (UTC) I'm glad no one had a counter to that because its true 65.191.246.62 16:28, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Umm, I think the idea is for this set of heroes to be flexible enough to 'support' any profession of player in a primarily solo format. If the profession you're playing is an attack oriented (enabled) profession (Warrior/Ranger/paragon/Dervish) then the paragon can fill in an important niche, especially since the elite isn't suggested.--98.232.36.96 01:26, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

this works better imo

 * picture of heroes' builds because i am lazy
 * necros: aotl is a bad skill and slows the user down, making the meatshield take forever to catch up. i switched it out for discord, bc with my experience in NM and HM 1 necro with animate bone minions can keep up at least 8 without problems. 2 = 16 so no need for aotl. especially taking into consideration the amount of spirits the build has. aotl is unnecessary and slows everything down. pod is pointless and so are the two curses except maybe shadow of fear. this build has substantial pressure from the two mesmers so there's no need for further melee pressure. i switched the second necro out for a discord as well.
 * mesmers: nothing wrong other than i take stand your ground over fall back
 * rit: i find that the rit has trouble keeping the spirits up as the teams moves from area to area, in HM or NM, so I just bring soul twisting to make life easier. also i bring displacement instead of dissonance because energy management is difficult for a hero no matter what skills you bring. haven't tried the mesmer energy burn variant yet, but i doubt that build's damage and damage mitigation matches up to a communing rit with 5 extra bodies including displacement and shadowsong.
 * monk: i see absolutely no reason for a smite support or a paragon support. i bring e/mo prot and have no problems. i have three /rt healers and the prot, so i rarely have deaths other than HM AoE if I don't flag/tank.
 * this is a great build as a starting point, but i just think it can be far improved to be faster. i mean, paragon support? what?... also RoJ = no--Saxazax 22:30, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
 * furthermore if you need less damage and more pressure for a difficult area take lingering curse over PoD. PoD is so pointless; 15 sec recharge for some AoE and enchantment removal? LC gives -20% healing and health degen which is much better pressure, and then it isn't really necessary if you just call target to a mob's healer when aggroing them.
 * also this build is missing painful bond but i guess it's not such a big deal. maybe switch for ancestor's rage. of course this is only an issue if you're taking razah, which you should be, unless you want to spend RL money on another mesmer slot for almost no difference, or put those skills on another char that has no fast casting or stat augmentation--Saxazax 22:44, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Your build is 7 Hero Discord with one discord switched for an ER Prot.. Not only is your build a total overkill of defense a lot of the things you say make no sense. You say you to "improve" things to make it go faster, which clearly isn't the case. The Commandogon and Smite Monk are great support characters, PoD is the best Curses elite at this moment and Painful Bond is listed as a variant. Some advice on your build: MM/Resto hybrids aren't really optimal, your hero will be wasting seconds of casting minion spells when he should be healing and vice versa, but if you are running Discord it's a logical implementation. As said before, a total overkill of defense. You can easily change the skills of the three resto hyrids by something more useful, like Curses or Prots. Skills like Enfeebling Blood and Shadow of Fear are among the best in the game and Prots free up your ER Prot slot. If you really want to speed thinsg up, take ESurge and "Fall Back!". Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 23:23, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
 * "...PoD is the best Curses elite at this moment..." whatever, but it's still a bad pressure skill. that much is true.
 * "...your hero will be wasting seconds of casting minion spells when he should be healing and vice versa..." this is true in many cases. i figured that the seconds wasted that they should be healing would be taken care of by the ER; so far this has been working just like i'm saying, but i agree it isn't perfect. in fact i think discord in and of itself is more of a slow but steady type of a thing, so i'll work on that. perhaps a necro resto healer will be better. again, i haven't had any problems yet due to the ER accounting for any lost "seconds".
 * "...change the skills of the three resto hyrids by something more useful, like Curses or Prots..." like i said before, this build does not need any more damage mitigation, due to the caster and melee pressure by the monks, shadowsong and displacement, the other spirits, and the minions. Curses like shadow of fear and enfeebling blood are further pressure/damage mitigation skills. I mean if one really wanted to speed things up with curses, you'd use things that degen health or buff physical damage like MoP or barbs (even though these aren't really that good either due to casting time/recharge/single target). i mean the only thing that can be said for enfeebling blood is that it lowers the attributes of the opponent by one, but again all it does is pressure and it's unnecessary.
 * "...Enfeebling Blood and Shadow of Fear are among the best in the game..." tell me why otherwise; is it because of some way heroes use it that i don't know about? also I won't even mention the fact that enfeebling is a saccing spell.
 * "...Prots free up your ER Prot slot..." I agree however in HM i believe fuse is one of the most useful things you can have. also I just think the er prot is much better than a hybrid in general, especially considering the fact that prots need to happen instantly (especially fuse) which can be a problem if the hero is busy casting something else. just my opinion, but i'll experiment with others.
 * "...to speed thinsg up, take ESurge and "Fall Back!"..." agreed with fall back. why would esurge speed things up more than communing spirits? because of aoe?
 * I mean are there things that I just don't know about the hero AI which make my logic invalid?--Saxazax 01:19, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
 * concerning prot, maybe put a fuse on one of the discords? don't see why this would be a problem, but it might not be that effective.--Saxazax 01:21, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
 * also you didn't mention anything I said about putting mesmer skills on a rit/paying $ for another mes. theoretically it shouldn't be an issue because it is indeed possible to acquire a third mes, but it's inarguable that it isn't practical.--Saxazax 01:31, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
 * PoD is actually quite useful with against eles and dervishes, but yeah Curses elites are pretty meh. If you have acces to a third Mesmer, by all means use it because it's optimal. But the Commandogon, Smite Monk or ER Prot are good alternatives. You put up a good case, you have a good build and there is no flaw in your logic, don't get me wrong. I would just replace one of the resto skills with prots, that way you can ditch the ER and take something else. The problem is that the most logical hero to take would be a third Discord hero, doing so we end up with 7 Hero Discord.. You are right that taking Curses would only end up in more damage mitigation, since you have no melee. But regarding Curses, yes Enfeebling Blood, Shadow of Fear, Mark of Pain and Weaken Armor are some of the best skills in GW, you should always try to incorporate those into your build imo. Multiple copies of "Fall Back!" speed things up nicely and taking ESurge in stead of Panic and/or an ESurge mesmer in stead of the SoGM rit would even speed things up more. PvE is all about blowing stuff up with AoE. As much as I like talking and brainstorming about builds, I'm sad to realise that your build doesn't have much similarities with this article, so it's probably the wrong place to discuss this. I suggest posting it on your own page. Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 02:06, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
 * You lost me when I saw 8 spirits and no painful bond. 82.95.65.117 00:31, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I usually run this with a SS rit so I bring it myself. also I said that it's optional over ancestor's rage--Saxazax 01:19, 25 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Running 3 heals and emo is pretty defensefag. Using pseudo-discordway without ap caller is dumb as well. And I'm guessing you have a love affair with infuse health?-- Relyk 01:46, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't we all? I'm still in denial that a ST Rit is actually better. Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 02:06, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
 * At first glance, I'm thinking "Whoa, 4 healers/hybrid healers??" I usually have just 2 or 3 max (depending on where I'm at). I agree that this build doesn't have enough damage output even if the player has a offensive build. Then again, part of me tells me this whole thing is a troll bait....Dragonphlu 03:09, 25 July 2011 (UTC)


 * thanks for the suggestions and tips everyone. re: "...I'm sad to realise that your build doesn't have much similarities with this article, so it's probably the wrong place to discuss this....", although this build is titled 7 player hero support, you are right, it really isn't similar. I'll go make my own in a bit.
 * i don't really want to refute everything except say that i'm testing something out right now that has 4 Esurge mesmers, 1 Ineptitude, 1 ER prot, and 1 Icy Veins heal. Works pretty well except could maybe use more heal in HM. threw ether feast, ether signet, and waste not want not on to all 5 and energy levels are awesome in HM. honestly i'm considering canning the Icy veins for a freakin UA. I mean the icy veins is probably good since I gave him Putrid Bile and Putrid Explosion (decided minions make everything slow and are unnecessary with 5 mesmers pressuring the shit out of everything anyway), but I think in HM use a UA and ER and in NM use an Icy Veins and ER. lastly just have yourself as something with great armor-ignoring damage, like SoS /rit, or Assassin's Promise finisher to push kills and you have one of the fastest build in the game for heroes outside of ball+spike... Things aren't supposed to die that fast, especially in HM. Lol. i'll link to my build in a bit.--Saxazax 06:05, 25 July 2011 (UTC)


 * This 7 hero build was one of the best things this wiki had, until xerazade came in with his disco way suggestions... how many healers, again?? 4? 5? its not enough... roj wut, he says, lol, are u nuts? roj is the best melee suport, coupled with splints, why is it bad, xerazade? this is supposed to be universal build, where u make small changes according to ur own build (player build), not change the whole build to disco and make it un-universal and suited for casters alike, wich is what ure trying here... u have a lot of bad points here, xera: "so I just bring soul twisting to make life easier" and " also i bring displacement instead of dissonance because energy management is difficult for a hero no matter what skills you bring", let me be the first to tell u: st makes all spirits cost the same, disso or displa cost ten ene, no matter what u do, unless u bring that spawn skill that gives ur ene back after spirit creation (forgot the name), wich makes ur spirits cost 5; u say that "AOTL" is bad bcoz bla, bla, bla, u can get minions easy just with animate bone minions, bla, bla, ur right, but if ur bringing minions, why u use displa?? it will die, over and over, coz of minions, its the most useless of all def spirits if u couple it with minions, plus, later on u say u take an e/mo (ER prot), if so, why displa?? u have melee hate from mesmers, shadowsong, aegis on steroids from ER, what is displa for? unless u wanna prot the minions, wich i think its adorable and very humane (ure in for the nobel prize there, arent u?) also, this: "however in HM i believe fuse is one of the most useful things you can have", really? u have already 7 or more healers, u have 16 minions (ur words here, not mine) and u take... fuse. Right. Ur gonna have this emo and displa saving ur minons, if any chest drops a golden, give it to the minions, they did all the job for u; emo is not needed almost anywhere, unless ure doing doa, believe me... more: "concerning prot, maybe put a fuse on one of the discords", what exactly do u mean here? by fuse, u mean bomb fuse? or infuse? the later is a lol... U dont like enfeebling blood, why? i read u saying that the only thing it does is lower atts by one, let me tell u a secret: it also diminishes dmg from attacks in 66%, meaning autoattack and auto wanding in HM will be meaningless, and will help furthermore in turning fisical dmg from mobs into nothing, wich automatically negates the need for displa (really, displa here is horrendus); "POD is useless", no its not, pod is a choice from other curses elites, all sane ppl bring enfeebling and weaken, so to put an elite there u need to choose from the curses line, yes its debatable its usefulness, but since melee playas need mop, and all playas need enf + weakn + shadow of fear, why not PoD? it will help against defense fag ele mobs and such, plus, ur suggestion is hilarious, lingering curses, lol... i will add more later, right now my ugly ass boss is telling me to go work... 08:59, 25 July 2011 (UTC)enormous
 * Enormous is actually right here, but to sum up what he said in that massive wall of text: you don't need 4 healers in any group ever, even in DoA, UW, etc; ER prot is hardly ever needed, except for places like DoA; Displacement will die in about 3 seconds due to triggering on the minions; weakness lowers attack damage by 66%; and PoD is moderately useful because 70-odd damage and two-deep enchantment removal is moderately useful, and the other Curses elites (SS, FoC, LC) aren't worth bringing, and the other non-elite Curses stuff (Shadow of Fear, Enfeebling, MoP) is too good to pass up. -- Jai . -  10:19, July 25 2011 (UTC)
 * Then why do we even bring an elite? Falrach 11:50, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Make skillbar look shiny? True that all Curses elites are meh. Lingering in some cases could be nice, but only in pressure bars, and you don't need it in PvE. PoD is the most useful for AoE damage/ench strips. Most eles in mobs have attunements. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 11:54, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I have one question, AotL vs. Jagged... what one should i bring? i mean IMO Jagged>AotL for condition because they are both low corpse minion skills (AotL can also be used for high corpse areas) so im just asking other opinions 65.191.246.62 16:19, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Razah Innoruuk's Error
Um, a rit primary cannot run 12+2 domination, sorry...can someone clarify/ammend this... Innoruuk 18:07, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Been away from GW for a while, have you? :). Since April, you can change Razah's primary profession. Dzjudz sig.png talk 18:21, 29 July 2011 (UTC)


 * lets just call this section 'innoruks error', then! Geist tha burdill 18:37, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Herp Derp I never heard about this :P. Don't know how I missed it...now if only we could actually obtain a 3rd mesmer and 3rd ritualist hero... Innoruuk 19:24, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
 * You can. Mercenary Heroes.  67.246.170.68 00:26, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

suggestions
I have the following suggestions:
 * Perhaps Hex Eater Signet to be put somewhere due to AoE Hexes: With the build as suggested I believe the heroes will use all the hex removal skills almost immediately when the whole party is hexed with Suffering or Meekness (due to the default distance they will keep from each other is not very far away). The resulting damages won't be very much (to the enemy party as a whole) because at most 1 or 2 melee will engage your party (if an enemy in range is required to trigger the hex removal skill, and if not no damage will be dealt at all).  Hex eater signet will partially allievate this problem.
 * Gaze of Fury and Signet of Binding: put them in there for the Beyond content and eotn dungeons (perhaps not Signet of Binding in Slaver's exile because they don't work for the ones that spawns arbitrarily), especially when their Pain/Bloodsong spirit is much higher in lvl (cast at 20 Communing/Channeling and probably 20 Spawning Power in HM Winds of Change) than your hero's
 * Shelter on Commune Rit if using Soul Twisting: crutch in tight spots (Not sure if ordering of skill in skill bar matters for hero AI)

K61824 01:35, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Role of the Player
What should the player play? Offensive / Defensive or what ever you enjoy? I'm a monk, don't think I need to be a full healer.. Maybe RoJ/Heals? Or should I use PvE only skills? - YMLaD / Finish Him? Bary 00:00, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Always use PvE skills, they are the most powerful in the game (at least, 99% of the time). But yeah, offensive is best either way. You don't need heals with this team, and being a healer is counter-productive anyway, seeing as with heroes you are supposed to lead the pack into battle. Smiter with PvE skills, AP calling, whatever works. Dzjudz sig.png talk 00:16, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Mesmer Equipment Rethink
I had the mesmers setup with the equipment listed, but it resulted in them both being at 0 mana literally as soon as the battle started, even in Asura territory. Then it didnt matter that their skills were recharged, they couldn't cast them. They don't use waste not want not very well, if at all. Replace it with another mana gain. And replace their weapons with either a staff, or spear and focus to give some added mana. My opinion anyways.
 * mine don't have that problem. Energy does get a little tight, but all that matters is that the mob is panic'd and ineptitude'd. It never gets so bad that they can't do that. [[Image:Denardraw_sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Denardraw]] Dêñår  drāŵ  09:46, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Blood Ritual
... must fit somewhere in there. Energy gets tight for healers in various situations.
 * Hardly --Master Elros 13:17, 6 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Heroes are horrible with managing BR anyway.Chill728 15:18, 7 August 2011 (UTC)


 * We use a pretty heavy variant of this in some areas like DoA with a Blood is Power + Blood Bond (the latter heals spirits) necro replacing the Minion Mancer and less (no?) mesmer energy management and more mesmer pressure, though I don't remember which skills exactly were swapped. Usually we have a UA monk as well, which has great synergy with BiP. It works best with at least one paid slot for an extra Ritualist, unfortunately (player works best as a puller in most areas). --Falseprophet 17:29, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Different Equipment
I took the time to customize all these weapons and they dont really help. When they throw spears they do 2 damage. Granted it doesnt happen often but still. I instead replaced all equipment with end game greens of the proper stat and got much better results. They can run UW hard mode basically while I afk. Flag them into some mobs and afk for a sandwich. Just my observation. Kalarian
 * Well you don't use a spear+shield caster set for the damage, it's the additional energy and 8 armor you want. I suggest looking at the individual build articles for alternative weapon sets. Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 17:32, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Para Hero
Ive found that your para hero will effectively use the shout "Find Their Weakness!" Which frees up a better elite (if your para has an attack skill that is). I dont even use "Go for the eyes!" I'm not sure if it benefits your spirits or just gives your para better emanagement but I didn't care for it. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by WhiteChaco (talk) at 01:55, 31 August 2011 (UTC).

Also, before I got Razah, I ran a searing flames ele with some wards and gave my para "They're on fire" and glowing signet, and it worked out nicely but I do like the rit better.
 * GftE gives minions tons of crits, which is quite nice. FTW is decent, but in a lot of situations you'd be better off running something like Golden Fang Strike, Wearying Strike, or Finish Him yourself. Also, please sign all your edits with four tildes at the end of your comment (~) . -- Jai . -  03:11, August 31 2011 (UTC)

My bad I signed up just to comment on that. And as I stated before, I didnt realize GftE did much. I run this build mostly with my monk so I usually don't bring anything other than stuff to push bars. WhiteChaco 22:35, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

emo+curses on MM?
i find it more effective than the PoD healer, because really PoD isnt the best of elites, and were better off abusing a emo for better prots+heals, and while were at it, since shared burden(which is pretty fricken amazing, imo) is on inepitude mesmer, we can take off shadow of fear on curses and add in splinter weapon. on MM: 14 death, 9 soul, 9 curses, 10 channeling. really its like 10 less dmg on DN and PB, and 1 less minion, for splinter weapon. i just find my new setup to work better than PoD healer+prots on necro. can replace ancestors with painful bond but i prefer painful bond because of sogm.--Bluetapeboy 21:34, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
 * nvm tryed it out, emo doesnt work well without microing crap, which i dont like to do, ended up taking fall back of sogm for splinter--Bluetapeboy 22:21, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The early versions of this team had an ER Prot ele. It's still great in harder HM content or elite areas. It's listed at the variants section on the build page. Dzjudz sig.png talk 01:06, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't give AI EMos infuse. Just bring lots of prots and they'll use the bar fine without micro.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  17:36, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Invoke lightning ele
i suggest adding to mainbar (as one of razahs optionals, or another ele hero, you get he point) because invoke lightning is just fricking amazing. i personally run roj monk, and then 2 invoke eles over razah and illusion hero, deals massive fricking damage, and i think it is a viable variant. and lightning ignores 25% armor, so it isnt reduced to crap damage like fire aoe. add splinter/arage/rez (fomf/dps) and take down GoeP and you have 2 copies of splinter, arage, and a fucktone of AoE damage. it makes the differnce when blowing through mobs.--Bluetapeboy 20:09, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
 * So you want to replace large armor-ignoring AoE nukes that also happens to be a huge amount of shutdown with inferior AoE nukes that are affected by armour (that you personally gimp even further by dropping GoEP) so you can take AR/Splinter (or whatever optional)? Doesn't exactly sound like mainbar material. PewPew   QQ   21:48, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
 * That would be a different build-- Relyk 21:56, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
 * true relyk, but @ pewpew lightning skills ignore 25% armor, which is enough. also, has 2 copies of 6 second recharge skills. what are the recharge on the mesmer skills? oh yea, like 2x as long. also, most of the time, the illusion skills dont hot alot of foes, maybe 1/2,but the air skills for sure will hit the maximum 3. also, tbh, sogm deals ~40 1 target DPS a second. 80 damage from all 4 spirits, double with painful bond, but be reminded that they have a 2 second recharge on attacks. Air ele would deal more DPS across multiple foes thatn a sogm. and AR and splinter are armor ignoring, and 3 pairs of splinter heavily makes up for that lost damage, since casters usually lol ball, esp in DoA where i mainly use the invoke eles. can agro 3 groups at once lol.--Bluetapeboy 18:56, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I take Razah as another Illusion mesmer, seeing as in PvE, everything attacks constantly. Kracatoan 19:04, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Whether it ignores 25% or not, it's still affected by that 75% armour that it doesn't ignore. The mesmer nukes flat out ignore all of it, and do more damage with a lower spec (as well as their secondary effects.) The recharges on the Mesmer skills are affected by Fast Casting (and ideally a 40/40 set, but the same can be said for the Air skills, so that point is moot) and having essentially multiple copies of them means one will always be avalible to use. Sure, the majority of the Illusion skills are adjacent range, while Invoke + Chain are nearby, but I find that when the AI ball, they ball well enough to be affected by it all. I can see the merit of running an Invoke with AR + Splinter over the SoGM if you have something to take advantage of it, but 2/3 copies of AR + Splinter are surely not being taken full advantage of unless you're running a physical character (minions just don't have the same effect). In which case, there's probably better things you can run. PewPew   QQ   21:24, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Nice troll, else uninstall gw.exe Vorpal  19:30, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Read Fast Casting. c? Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 21:18, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Haha yeah that part was real funny =P Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 21:26, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
 * invoke ele isn't terrible, damage is decent as long as you have cracked armor. just remember to stick chest thumper somewhere. it's too glass cannon for balanced team.-- Relyk 23:32, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
 * This is definetely a troll, otherwise, this blowtapeboy is a massive noob... and the comparison where he mentions mesmer recharge skills is hilarious, wandering eye stops one attack, hits ALL foes in the nearby vicinity for MORE dmg than his ridiculous airspike ele, recharges in 8 seconds, all that while clumsiness hexes all adjacent foes, makes ALL of them miss one attack and deals around the same dmg to all agroed foes in the adjacent vicinity, recharges in ~5 secs, and im not even including the elite, ineptitude, wich id rather not xplain here what it does to foes... ure comparing a mesmer with ~30% faster recharge (coz thats what fast cast does in pve, @10), 30% faster cast and a hell lot more dmg and shutdown to a clumsy airspiker; this same mesmer also has the ability to use fomf much better than any other class, wich for me is a keeper (mesmers are my rezers); im not even going into comparing that disgraceful ele to a sogm (wich i actually dont like, but i have to recognize its merits), coz its a ridiculous comparison, what that rit does goes far beyond just simple spiking like that punny wind crawler of an ele... there is too much jeydra fanboys here...the name starts with a J, but hes not jesus... besides, he plays a lot better than most ppl here, so he can actually pull it of, but slaping this on a guy that comes here to learn the best easyway across pve is doing bad comunity service... oh, and if he wants all that splinting in game, he can even lower a bit in some atts, and give a 10 spec splinter to this mesmer/rit... or actually run a decent build and stick to... 7 hero player support, the original.  Geist tha burdill  Enormous 21:33, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Oh boy, i was ninja'ed by minion on that fast cast... also, i read the post again, 40 dps from sogm??????????? what???????  Geist tha burdill  Enormous 21:37, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

I went trough sogm rit, at 16 comuning, i have 95 plain dmg, with hexed foes (its going to happen, u have plenty hexes with those mesmers), the anguish is gonna hit for 21 more, thats 116, plus, sognm itself adds 40 dmg and makes spirits attack each 1,33 secs, thats a grand total of 156 every 1,33 secs, tell me now, after reading this, where u get those 40 dps?? i dont get it... oh, this rit is only seven skills full, u can use some utility skill there...  Geist tha burdill  Enormous 21:46, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Thank you sir
Just wanted to let people know that with only slight modifications I am doing solo hero Full runs of DoA and then Mallyx with this build as the core. NM of course, though I can do Stygian and Ravenheart on HM with the same basic mod, I suspect I might be able to do Mallyx HM. FR DoA doesn't require cons, though they help eliminate wipes in crucial areas, so on average I consume two sets if I don't want to wipe (Behind the Lines in Ravenheart and The Foundry large areas). I have two general mods of the build, one uses SoGM Razah, and the other use Razah as a Soul Twisting Shelter+ communing defensive platform for when huge AOEs and such are an issue (DoA). For DoA and Mallyx I take the role of the panick from Gwen and make her into all interrupts build of mine, for mallyx I put Gaze of fury on Xandra and Painful bond. (disable all conditions, hexes and enchantments for Mallyx of course, except your own). This build makes VQ and nearly everything a breeze or very doable in most areas I've gone in HM. It provides a stable platform for nearly any profession imo. Great work on providing the community with a great, well though build--98.232.36.96 02:20, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Any Difference Between Heroes?
I was wanting to try these builds out on my heroes, but I was wondering if Razah is required, or if anyone has managed to go by with another hero instead? I was thinking of using Xandra. LanaDarkess 09:46, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
 * What? You are already using Xandra as an SoS rit, Razah is there as an extra rit/mesmer (mesmer is the better option). There is some flexibility though, ie I use Vekk as an emo instead of the PoD necro. Kracatoan 10:08, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Razah is unique because he's the only hero that can change his primary profession. Thus, if you want 3 mesmers, you have to have, along with the two mesmers heroes already (Norgu and Gwen), Razah as a mesmer primary. Of course, you can go without a hero or two and be fine in the vast majority of areas, but this is just one of the more solid setups you can have.Razah's one of the strongest heroes (because he can be either of the strongest professions), but you can get by without him. -- Jai . -  15:49, September 25 2011 (UTC)

4/6 party members?
Which party members should I use for 4 man and/or 6 man areas? --173.66.187.157 16:34, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I use SoS/Smite/Emo for 4 man and SoS/Smite/Emo/MM/Panic or Ineptitude for 6 man. Kracatoan 16:47, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Same exact builds as the one shown or should I change it? --173.66.187.157 04:38, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * You can easily get away with taking the exact same bars as listed for 8 man, but you are probably going to be tweaking each build per area anyway. Emo is overkill on prots for most areas, but it doesn't matter much. --  Toraen   talk  04:56, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * So, a bunch of questions. Be gentle, I'm not exactly an expert here.
 * SoS is the Signet of Spirits Ritualist (Xandra), Smite is Ray of Judgement Monk (3 choices), MM is Minion Master (Bomber), but what is "Emo"? Seems to be the "Curses Resto" but I'm not sure.
 * The smite monk doesn't seem to be pulling their weight, is that my imagination? (I tried 5-hero team for "Temple of the Intolerable" in normal mode as a test)
 * Is the MM in the 3 hero build better?
 * How about an SS Necro or SV necro instead of smite monk?
 * Too few resurrection skills on all the 7 heroes combined?
 * 50.88.232.189 05:49, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * E/Mo refers to a Build:E/Mo Ether Renewal Prot Hero, which is mentioned at the bottom of this page as a variant. It's generally not needed in most areas.
 * Smite monks are best when you ball things for RoJ to nuke. It's best used with a melee player, who will be adjacent to mobs to trigger the Smite X skills and will be hit to fuel Reversal of Damage. With Smiter's Boon, it'll be able to help the resto keep said melee going. Also it'll get to bring Strength of Honor for that player.
 * Which 3 hero build are we comparing to? MM heroes are pretty samey across most hero team builds.
 * SS Necro can work, although that's probably better fit as a variant to the PoD Nec (already specced in curses, elite isn't essential). SV is really rarely used since it's single target.
 * Additional res skills can be slotted on just about any character if you feel they're needed.
 * --  Toraen   talk  06:35, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the answers.
 * So, the EMo instead of or in addition to the Curses Resto Necro based on need?
 * I need to hold aggro and tank properly, I guess. Thanks.
 * SoS/Smite/Emo vs SoS/MM/Emo? What do you think?
 * OK
 * OK
 * 50.88.232.189 16:53, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * For the most part emo is only necessary in endgame areas. or i guess if you want to drop something for more damage, emo would work then to i guess. For simplicity SoS, MM, and whatever you would like. try not to use mm with an st rit though if you go that route. bad synergy with minions/def spirits. Since this is about 4/6 man, you could go with sos, mm, emo til you get the hang of it and know what your lacking/can do without. once you try one, just tweak it if you notice things taking to long to die/you dying. try to only change one thing at a time though til you narrow down the hero's with your play style. As an example i first used sogm and command para. Now i'm using the same mes/rit midline as this (which for the most part seem to be concrete nowadays aside from nec hybrids) w/ 2 roj and a nec resto. Starting out, defensive play is generally easy so you get the hang of a certain area, then tweak if your not killing things. Which falls back to starting out, SoS, mm, and emo may be what you want to try. All builds allow for change. These (builds) just help with getting started. update- my ip's melded. lol, idk if you wanted 4 man area stuff to. regardless, emo is fine if you want more protection in "easy" areas til you get used to the build and how you play.  Akio _Ka  t  suragi   Akio_Katsuragi_Sig2.jpg 04:16, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Playing as SoS spirit spammer.
I play as a SoS spirit spammer and I have no idea to what to supplement the SoS resto rit. I was wondering that I would make Razah as E-surge and xandra as sogm. I don't want the para hero. Will the resto rit be critical to keep my party alive? Any suggestions?

Kubelecer 17:29, 21 October 2011 (UTC)


 * My solution: [], but that's just one way of doing it. You could, for instance, also use a PI Resto because those are awesome. Having 2 healer hybrids is usually all the healing you need, but there are numerous cases in which one is sufficient, especially combined with spirits/ST/ER Prot. Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 17:53, 21 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I would use a BiP Necro Healer and take away all your energy management skills, Since you are a caster, you will really benefit from BiP, and what you really want from the SoS Resto rit are the healing skills. Alternatively, another RoJ monk could work. --173.66.187.157 20:46, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Suggestion for improvement
I find that this build is very effective for almost all pve, with a few minor, personal changes of my own - but one thing I notice, the build doesn't have a good source of cracked armor? Weaken Armor is probably the best choice for the build, everything (with few exceptions) in HM has 60+ armor, so I don't see why it isn't in there :/
 * Because 99% of the damage is armor-ignoring, except the auto-attack damage from minions and your heroes. If you're a melee yourself you could consider putting it on the Curse Resto though, but Mark of Pain is still better. To cut things short, stuff like Cracked Armor and Orders aren't efficient when only running one source of non-armor-ignoring damage. Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 15:34, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I am a melee player, and have adapted the build around me (Mop,Strength+honor) and thats what I use, I moved Enfeebling blood onto the Sogm, (12commun,11spawn,6curses) lasts 11-12 seconds, I think - then Weaken armor on the curse resto. Orders are defo useless unless your trying out physway/racway etc. I see your point:)

With illusions bot, clumsiness should really be in optionals imo because AI seems to prioritise it over inept & wandering. Accumulated pain worth putting on optionals too, especially when you can't take dw yourself. Also, I'd like to say that people should realise it, but needs to be made clear the ST & minions bot are switchable.90.196.101.253 21:20, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Suggestion for Fine tuning
This Team Build is pretty awesome, fits in almost all cases (Ive used more with 3 mesmers than 2 ritualists, as also suggested). But I have a question. I need a fine tune for some missions/challenges, for example, since this Team Build works most of time for me, I don't know where to make it a little better for some WoC missions and Glint's Challenge, for example. I've tried other combinations and I don't know where I'm failing to see the error.
 * I could point you in the direction of several glint's  which will give you a notion of what is required there - stick with glint so you don't have to split up. You should get the picture that you're going to want a copy of EoE, some chaos/cold damage, and probably SoS. Defensive shouts will reduce the amount of work your healer has to do. (Using spears on heroes will stop chaos storm raping your team)
 * For the Winds of Change, you're probably going to want some protection from Shelter via slotting it onto your SoGM rit, OR running the ST rit variant. WoC will make you want to micro RoJ + Panic onto groups. Every group in WoC will ball up naturally if you give them enough time - rush them with Panic and RoJ at that point and everything should go fine. [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] Chieftain   Alex  22:28, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Merge
since this is named player support...just merge it with all those similar builds...like this User:Illoyon/Team - 7 Hero Generalway. RoJ-, SF- and FoCway all use pretty much the same mid/backline right? also same playstyle...1. semi ball + spike or 2. just c-space (its pve). Illoyon 14:48, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I have made such a suggestion before, but apparently people here don't like builds that include too many optionals. They'd rather have the same build with one different hero copypasted a few times on different build pages. Dzjudz sig.png talk 15:46, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Indeed, aren't we lovely? --Master Elros 16:01, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
 * People like straightforward builds, because people are either too dumb or too lazy to chose their own build XD  Shadow  Talk  16:22, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I've never seen proof of that. Dzjudz sig.png talk 20:08, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
 * It's true. They like things simple and cspace. Soi Sticker 20:30, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
 * That's not a team build, it's a guide-- Relyk 20:39, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Guide to PvE? --Master Elros 20:46, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

The problem with merging all the damage options into one page is that you can't vet them apart from each other and it's really easy to slip in bad options "because they work too". It even makes vetting the build based on it's flaws harder because someone will say "just take x to counter that" when you can't realistically have all the advantages of each variant with none of the disadvantages (otherwise that setup would be the only one of them worth considering). The core of 4 builds stays roughly the same between them because it's full of overpowered skills that let anyone faceroll PvE and work just about everywhere. A PvE hero team not using those is analogous to a physical not using an IAS or PvP rangers not using a preparation: gimping yourself by not taking effective skills. They'd only be dropped in a small handful of situations that are generally outside the scope of the build anyway. -- Toraen   confer  22:00, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
 * In short, 7 Hero Teams are defined by their last 2-3 slots, so merging all the builds that have cores similar to each other but (very) different additional heroes ends up with one massive, general build that (as Toraen mentioned) is very difficult to vet properly. MoPway, RoJway, and SFway all have very differently-performing secondary characters (which means different ratings for each one), even if their overall roles are similar. -- Jai .  -  02:17, February 5 2012 (UTC)

The Smiting Monk
Mobs in HM just tend to spread really fast, I don't really like RoJ. Signet and Shield of Judgment seem weird as well. All the monk elites just suck, I guess RoJ is the least bad one. Empathic Removal also seems weird. Also I dont like the para utility but that's personal preference, i take bane signet instead and just go 12-12 on the attributes. -- GWPirate 关 00:00, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
 * FB is a huge help if you can bring it and shouldn't be replaced by crap like Bane Sig. Anyway, the RoJ needs to have an ele variant, tbh. RoJ really isn't suited incredibly well for general PvE unless you're a melee. EA pushes out more damage over time. -- Jai .  -  01:45, February 26 2012 (UTC)
 * UA smite--TahiriVeila 01:56, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Psychic Instability or KD and Earthbind--- IGN: Saxazax I (capital i) or Saxazax I I - (talk) 04:12, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Take away the RoJ monk?
As the previous post there was stated that the mobs spread very easaly in HM from RoJ. Mine idea is to give it a variant as another mesmer. There are after all 3 ritualist heros in GW after all and Razah can change his proffesion to mesmer. So why not: 1 Pain of Disenchantment Necro, 1 Minion Bomber Necro, 1-2 Panic Mesmers, 1-2 Ineptitude Mesmer(depending if you want more damage or more interupts), 1 SoS Ritualist and 1 SoGM Ritualist. The damage should be a lot more then if you bring the RoJ Monk. --Kolpin 18:28, 6 May 2012
 * i agree, this setup is not meant for frontliners and an Esurge/Inept would be loads better than smite. taking out the monk would warrant an ST in some maps (even with the monk, ST>mm prot in some maps) &#9823;Fianchetto [[Image:Mending.jpg|19px|link=User_talk:Fianchetto]] 18:52, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Underworld
Anyone tried doing UW with this build? Can it be done, including the four horsemen and similar hardcore quests? Plohek 21:37, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
 * You'll get wankered by dhumm without at least an ST rit, if not at least one conset for dhumm. My mate on gww did it - he found bone pits quest super hard (multiple spawns with heroes = QQ), but everything else is kk. (I recall he did the 4H quest by bringing his entire group to one side with spirits, microing them, then rushing back to the other side while the dryder/skeles/horses were busy with spirits + summon on the first side. Then after clearing opposite side he moved back towards the start to finish that wave off) -- Cɥıǝɟʇɐıu Alǝx 22:06, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

FoW
Has anybody tried this in FoW as I'm looking to get this statue and this build does look like it might need more hex removal?--TomsTom 13:54, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
 * You only need hex removal if you're melee, and even then, FoW is easy enough that you can attack through Empathy and Spiteful Spirit when you have two healers. You may wish to look at Archive:Team - 7 Hero Melee Support. If you want to use this, replace reversal of damage and smiter's boon with divine healing and deny hexes. That will be more than enough with shatter hex. You can also bring remove hex or cure hex over aegis.-- Relyk 19:38, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

The problem I found with the melee support it doesn't shut down well enough for me I also should of put I'll also be going for survivor I found that today if your lacking the additional mesmer just put and ele on to the dom line and let it spam--TomsTom 00:27, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah that's a terrible idea.-- Relyk 04:30, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
 * You'd be better off shoving a felblade up your ass and pretending you're a T-Rex. [[Image:They.jpg|36px|link=User:They]] 05:23, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Further improvements
I find that the Pain of Disenchantment elite is a very poor choice Icy Veins for elites on the PoD nec I ran Spiteful Spirit,Corrupt Enchantment and FoC so far those 3 are most useful. I've ran this build on my Paragon and to be truthful I got steam-rolled with this build the full concept of this 7hps team needs a re-work as in HM its way too lackluster.Big Daddy 11:53, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
 * If you're getting steamrolled while running this build, you're doing something wrong, and probably shouldn't be making suggestions for changes to the mainbar. This works fine in every single area in HM with the possible exception of DoA and UW. <font color=6C87A3>jī·gō·dǔ -  19:33, 16 Jul 2012 (UTC)
 * I tried doing vlox excavations HM on my para but not as an SY spammer but as a cruel spear and I still got wiped I know its not my build as sabway got me through it. And I've tried this team build in many area and its still pants compared to many other team buildsBig Daddy 23:54, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Derp votes
@ Big Daddy: sounds like you shouldn't be using this set of heroes since its a given that you run damage if you bring this.

@ AegisDok & DaCookie: suggest an appropriate alternative to mesmer if the person hasn't completed WOC - bear in mind most people resorting to pvx probably won't have completed WoC HM yet.. -_- also fuck off anyone about to slap down UAX. <font face="Constantia" color=#D2691E>Cɥıǝɟʇɐıu Alǝx 00:37, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Pretty much. RoJ Monk is fine for general, it's terrible anything that isn't steamroll on casters and some melee setups. People tend to use emo, EA ele, or a hybrid necro build. could always put in an IV nuker because it can bring all the command crap and is strong with casters. Did that on surgeway or something.-- Relyk 02:26, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * @ Chieftain Alex the build does not say not recommend for a phys toon that doesn't have high dps so please explain why I should not use said set of heroes. I still believe this should not be in the meta cat as there is better alternatives but again gwpvx police steps into the fray.Big Daddy 17:22, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Alex, Relyk, and Jai aren't police around here. Others may challenge your vote if they want though, and you have to defend your views (and you've at least got a start on that). You've told us what build your character runs, but you haven't said anything about your playstyle (how much you try to ball foes, target priority, etc.) which is probably what's causing the build to falter. Others have had success with this build and similar setups so you may want to explain more to those players if you want to convince them or use the build to it's fullest. -- Toraen   confer  22:01, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll try to run you through vlox as much as i can remember my bar is cruel spear with the PVE-title skill evas I call targets with evas lock the mesmers on to the called target and take it from there I'm not a pro baller what so ever I call and corner block as much as I can I don't flag heroes I don't micro heroes either and in all truth I should not have to micro heroes for the builds to work I think my vote is valid maybe I was too harsh and should of gived it a 4 but I thought the composit to the main healer the curses hybrid was a weak link once the hybrid went down so did the team I runed and gear them up exactly like the build said if there is any thing else ou require for my vote to be valid just say.Big Daddy 23:03, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * If the curses healer goes down, that's a sure sign you're doing some bad pulls, need to change your tactics, or need to bring more defense. Simply voting a build down when it may be the player's error isn't a strong argument.-- Relyk 23:41, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Sogm
I find the sogm standing there and unable to do anything if all his spirits are on recharge. I took out Union and put in Spirit Light at 8+1 resto so he can be doing something while spirits are on recharge--Saxazaxx (talk) 22:40, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Optional E/Mo Prot Hero
Which hero should I switch out for the optional E/Mo? At first I thought to swap it with the Minion Bomber Prot or with the RoJ Monk, but thought that in that case I would lack too much damage.Darigaaz87 (talk) 13:13, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
 * It would replace the bomber if you're a melee player but the RoJ on a caster player. Death Nova can do a lot of damage, but it's often delayed enough that it'd be more for mop up than a main damage source (especially with a powerful enough melee player build at the lead). As melee, you also don't need the minions' bodyblocking as much since you can do it yourself.
 * For casters, RoJ's a nice nuke to have supporting you, but also not essential especially since it causes scatter (which can interfere with your own nukes). Nothing else the RoJ does is very notable for caster players. Toraen (talk) 11:21, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Melee does the highest DPS
Any way we could work some melee into here besides being on just the player?--Saxazaxx (talk) 16:57, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Arcane Conundrum
Quoted from Hero behavior/Unexpected behavior: "Arcane Conundrum: AI casts this on foes that do not cast spells, whether or not there are enemy spellcasters adjacent to the target." --- IGN: Saxazax I (capital i) or Saxazax I I - (talk) 03:01, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Is anyone still using this?
To my delight I haven't seen anyone recommend this build anymore for a few months now. (I wonder how long it will take for people to realize that they shouldn't run the new meta, the BiP player support, either.) We mayyyyy consider archiving this. --Krschkr (talk) 12:24, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Can you fill me in on what's wrong with it? I have been out of the loop for a bit.--&#32;Saxazaxx - IGN: Saxazax I (capital i) or Saxazax I I - (talk) 21:36, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Welcome back. The smiter is pretty ineffective and tends to cause scattering. The whole team is focusing on slowly working itself through foes with a minion wall and stationary spirits, which may work, but slows you down a lot in total. Instead you could go for a more aggressive and direct build. Attribute wasting and energy issues on the domination mesmer. PoD healer (instead of a BiP healer). This whole team is a misconception unless the player is going to be afk in a defense quest. --Krschkr (talk) 23:19, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Speaking of attribute point wasting, why is every bar in the game a hybrid?--&#32;Saxazaxx - IGN: Saxazax I (capital i) or Saxazax I I - (talk) 00:30, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
 * It usually makes sense to spread your available points into up to three attribute lines as you have a maxed out damage attribute line, a useful primary attribute which you might not necessarily need 13+ attribute points for and a third attribute line you invest in for additional utility or energy management skills. Reducing one attribute by two points allows to spend 5 more points into another one (12-12-3 -> 12-10-8), which may be worth more than relying on just two attributes. Prime example for this are necromancers who's mighty primary attribute doesn't get much more powerful above an investment of ~10 points and still allows to invest a good amount of points into other attributes; also, they don't have that many nice skills themselves so they are really eager to get some secondary profession utility skills into their bar. It's similar for elementalists, who usually have a slot or two free and don't really need to invest as much as possible into their primary attribute. For mesmers it's a bit different. They have great damage attributes, great skills, an extremely powerful primary attribute which further benefits from investments at every conceivable level but need to invest some points into inspiration magic, too, to fuel their damage/shutdown skills. Their energy management does not allow to spend much energy in utility skills (like fall back) and their own attributes are so valuable that they shouldn't even invest in any secondary profession attributes. Spreading their attribute investment further is disadvantageous. That's why giving mesmers paragon skills is a pretty silly idea. Also, not every (good) build in this game is a hybrid. You have builds which are dedicated to just one job and invest attribute points in just two attribute lines to do this job well, like ST prots, JFD assassins, most warriors. I'd say even splinter weapon/strength of honour support ritualists are in this category, as they don't benefit much from the primary attribute and can spend everything they have in two support heavy attribute lines, channeling magic and smiting prayers. --Krschkr (talk) 14:40, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I hear what you're saying. I'm going to go back to the drawing board and try to put my opinions into practice and see what comes out. I think that just because everyone is doing something, it does not mean it's the best thing that is possible. I believe that the skills that people use the least frequently have a silver lining.--&#32;Saxazaxx (talk) 19:25, 16 July 2018 (UTC)