Archive talk:A/E Perma Sliver Farmer/Archive 1

Please use 4 tildes ( ~ ) to sign your comments. Thanks. —ǥrɩɳsɧ ƿoɲ  〚〛 19:32, 4 September 2007 (CEST)

To move pages, please don't create a new one. Just click the "move" tab at the top of the page. --Wizardboy777 (T/C/Sysop) 02:08, 2 November 2007 (CET)

Ashes to ashes... —ǥrɩɳsɧ ƿoɲ  02:10, 2 November 2007 (CET)

I learn something everyday here, sorry if i f**ked it up Ashes 10:18, 2 November 2007 (CET)


 * Hey, don't worry about it. Learning experience for me too. Everyone starts somewhere, don't fret about it. —ǥrɩɳsɧ  ƿoɲ  12:07, 2 November 2007 (CET)

Howya doin.  Shen (contribs) 03:30, 2 December 2007 (CET)

Fine thanks ;D - but im not sure who u are, or where i know u from, unless ur from NPC :DDAshes 19:27, 3 December 2007 (CET)

How do you go about handling mana with this build, granted i had to add a regen skill with what i was going after but i kept running out.70.100.94.64 11:51, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Replace Intensity with GolE, and use this to reduce sliver and Ebon to 0. I actually think the main bar should be like this, and DC changed to an optional, since you don't need a Shadowstep most of the time. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:User_Poki_Signature.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]] 12:26, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 * worked much better thanx, added vipers defense on end of skill bar for some degen while waiting on sliver armor kinda handy.70.100.94.64 17:24, 10 June 2008 (EDT)

When making many miniscule edits to a page...
Use the "show preview" button. Thanks. - Auron 06:25, 29 January 2008 (EST)

Sure didnt know any1 were looking :D Ashes 06:27, 29 January 2008 (EST)
 * It all showes up on the Recent changes, so it may clog it up (if you get my drift), btw when the update comes I can see this being viable, but I am not sure if the glyph and deadly paradox stack, if they do,then this is great Frost  eeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!  07:03, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Yup 28 second recharge on SF, when the update comes out, this is going to be used everywhere. Frost  eeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!  07:14, 22 May 2008 (EDT)

Twisting..
Made a small correction in the Counters section. Surely Twisting Fangs was incorrect, and Twisting Jaws more accurate since it is a "non-targeting" touch skill which would bypass shadow form. Sph0nz 15:32, 13 October 2008 (EDT)

Build Discussion
Moved this to a build page, this looks really promising after the update Frost  eeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!  07:58, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Will be imba, I'm getting Deadly Paradox on my ele. Mesmers, Elementalists, Assassins and Rangers can now have perma sf all the time ;d &mdash; Abedeus  [[Image:User Abedeus Sig.jpg|19px]] 08:12, 22 May 2008 (EDT)

It looks like this build will have some energy issues as well as damage output issues. Sliver armor will only be up about half the time.
 * Please end your comments with ~ to sign them. And, please regard Aura of Superiority. Some of its effects are energy gain and all skills recharge; and with (ideally) a mass of enemies surrounding you, things die fast. - [[Image:GenericWikier1.jpg|19px]] Generic Wiki-er  23:10, 24 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Air, not Aura. Throan Loremaker 15:02, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Highest stack at...
The highest Reduce Rechagre Time stack is at 50%. So 50% of 60 = 30. 20+(20 x 0.2) = 24 seconds. 30 - 24 = 6 seconds of Shadow Form downtime. If you were relying on Air of Superiority to recharge Shadow Form, it's too risky. Sorry but nice try Lyssan55 17:42, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Well worked out, now read the build description, to be used after the may 22nd update in which Shadow Form recieves a buff or whatever it says in the front page, lrn2read before ripping builds up please... Frost  eeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!  17:45, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Woops, sry didn't read the new updates or anything. My apologies this works fine. Lyssan55 09:11, 24 May 2008 (EDT)

May 22nd
This May 22nd? How do you know what the update is before they do it? Lord of Destruction 08:43, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * look at the main page of PvX and check out the dev updates in the news. - PANIC!  [[Image:Panic_sig4.png|50px|18px]]  sexiness!  08:45, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * dammit panic, i was about to post that. well here it is anyway http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Developer_Updates/20080521. btw with 16 shadow arts and 20% enchantment mod shadow form comes on 38 secs duration, just too small for DP alone. Larsie538 08:47, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * my mad. Sweet! The Quick shot Spammer is better again! [[Image:Destruction_Sig1.jpg‎|50x19px]]Lord of Destruction 08:50, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * + Glyph of Swiftness = 28 second recharge (well atleast under 30 seconds) which makes it more than viable) Frost  <font color="Pink">eeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!  08:51, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I make it 38 seconds long at 16 shadow (each rank is approx +2 seconds). with the 20% mod that should make it about 46 seconds duration. - PANIC!  [[Image:Panic_sig4.png|50px|18px]] <font color="#D70000"> sexiness!  08:51, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * You forget official wiki determines ranks from 0...15 and not 0...12 Larsie538 09:00, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Dev notes are from 0...12 I believe.  09:01, 22 May 2008 (EDT)

0..15 as far as i knowAshes 09:04, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I thought 0...12, too. Otherwise it's a messy 1.56 second increase at each level. Oh well we'll find out later tonight. It's still pretty broken tbh. - PANIC!  [[Image:Panic_sig4.png|50px|18px]] <font color="#D70000"> sexiness!  09:07, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I'm pretty sure its 0...15. anyway you could switch out glyph of swiftness for an Essence of celerity i think. Larsie538 09:11, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * 0...15 cause they screw headgear. thats how i remember--[[Image:Relyk Purifying Veil Sig.jpg|19px]]<font color="99CCFF">R ELYK   <font color="CCCCFF">(Talk  | <font color="99CCFF"> Edits)  23:34, 25 May 2008 (EDT)

Buff
It was 0 -> 15, but still this build can maintain SF with 13 shadow arts aslong as a 20% enchantmod is brought. <font color="Red">Frost  <font color="Pink">eeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!  18:20, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * This is true but if you experience lag or energy denial your left with barely any time to cast it. This leaves little room for error plus what would you raise with the extra atibute points. So in other word DONT DO IT. =DTycars125 22:15, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

The update is here
Discuss Ashes 18:21, 22 May 2008 (EDT)


 * Shadow Form + ench mod + random skills now wins PvE. Nothing to discuss. - [[Image:GenericWikier1.jpg|19px]] <font face="Courier New" size="2" color="black">Generic Wiki-er  19:01, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * It's gonna get nerfed L.O.L  ɟoʇuɐʌ  ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 19:02, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * ...It's PvE. I repeat. PvE.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  19:12, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Being able to vanquish everything that hasn't got weird enchantment removal (Rending Touch, Chilblains, etc.) is just fucking gay and imba.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 19:12, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * you could do it before. it's just easier now.--Reason.decrystallized 21:15, 22 May 2008 (EDT)

holy
Is there anything this can't farm? (don't answer that) so, what is the best farmable thing this can do? like, the best farm spot i guess...  Uberxman1028  23:07, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I'm having trouble maintaining energy, when there arent enough enemies around or when they run (HM), but maybe thats just me being used to A/Me with spirit of failure lol (just realised the grasps of insanity use fear me. QQ Larsie538 02:09, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Go /N and take Vocal Minority and dagger attacks. --71.229.204.25 02:21, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Need glyph of swiftness to keep SF on, but besides that not a bad suggestion. Larsie538 02:31, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Orite. --71.229.204.25 02:44, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
 * You don't need to go /N...thats not even possible. To avoid getting fear me'ed too much just switch to any martial weapon and they won't use it on you, or at least not as much.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  06:34, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Just use a Totem Axe or an equivalent and they won't use Fear Me. [[Image:Zefirsig.jpg|19px]] God Zefir  17:12, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I farm tombs with permashadow (aecho, no gwen), weilding a totem axe, but they still use "Fear Me!". - [[Image:GenericWikier1.jpg|19px]] <font face="Courier New" size="2" color="black">Generic Wiki-er  18:29, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

Nolani Academy Farm?
...In hard mode. About 20 enemies, none of which can hurt you. There's no way there could be any more win. Mazza558 08:00, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Charr have a tendency to run away when Sliver Armor targets them, which makes killing a real pain in the ass, plus a couple will usually just run past and kill Ruric, causing you to lose the mission. --71.229 08:03, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I tried it, Ignite Arrows still hit. Larsie538 11:10, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

Try use Death's charge as a heal then, also Air of Sup give some heal (if ur lucky xD) Ashes 12:10, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

If yu can't get your hands on a caster weapon/offhand set, would Daggers of Xuekao work okay?<font color="Green">Kaze 19:43, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
 * pretty much anything with a enchant mod will work  Antiarchangel [[Image:Antiarchangel No U Sig.png|19px]] <font color=#C0641B>TROLL  00:08, 24 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I keep getting owned by burning arrow from the charr rangers. I kill the boss, but die anyway.

Best place to farm
I tweaked it a bit, Because i cant use AoS...And it is beyond Awesome, But i cant find a great place to farm, Can any1 give me tips?
 * UW, FoW and Tombs can all be easily farmed. Also The Monolith Temple and Raptors are great ways to get lots of golds. --[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  20:12, 24 May 2008 (EDT)

Monolith Temple doesnt work, they use Sig of Humility making it impossible to recast SF Zzes Tyan 12:00, 17 October 2008 (EDT)

Glyph of Lesser energy in for Deaths Charge
^--<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  20:19, 24 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Added to variants Ashes 11:29, 25 May 2008 (EDT)

How much downtime does sliver armor have? With glyph of swiftness and deadly paradox, that gets reduced too,right?<font color="Red">kill<font color="Orange">A <font color="Blue">runa  <font color="#D70000"> Leet!


 * DP doesn't cut down the recharge of Sliver. But AoS does (recharge all skills effect), so it's effectively maintainable - [[Image:GenericWikier1.jpg|19px]] <font face="Courier New" size="2" color="black">Generic Wiki-er  12:36, 25 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Sliver armor lasts about 15 seconds, 25% of 30 is about 6 or 7 (too lazy) so there is about 8 seconds down time. Without it there is a 15 second down time, however if you don't have the energy to cast it in the first place, then its up more with glyph of lesser energy. Also HCR makes it fully maintainable about 40% of the time (Or 20% not sure, kinda lazy right now)--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  13:08, 25 May 2008 (EDT)


 * Sliver Armor lasts 12sec, with Glyph of Swiftness we got a recharge time of 22.5sec. 20% HSR (Halves skill recharge) will make every 5th Sliver armor recharge in 11.25sec. Air of Superiority got 10% change of recharging all your skills, so every 10th kill should recharge Sliver armor instantly. Also keep in mind that killing a boss will recharge all skills. Ashes 15:03, 25 May 2008 (EDT)
 * no, you can never reduce the recharge time below 50%.--Reason.decrystallized 16:00, 25 May 2008 (EDT)

Because? Ashes 16:04, 25 May 2008 (EDT)
 * You can't, the game won't allow more than 50%. <font color="Red">Frost  <font color="Pink">eeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!  16:09, 25 May 2008 (EDT)
 * because that's the way that the game is programmed.--Reason.decrystallized 16:17, 25 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I didn't know that :O, that makes Sliver form recharge @ 15sec every 5th time.. Ashes 16:22, 25 May 2008 (EDT)

It's apparent that this is Omega reliable for farming mob based enemies, but is it possible to kill single targets? [I.E. Dungeon Boss-like foes, or creatures without any major self heals ( Wars, Eles, Sins, ect.)] <font color="Green">Kaze 01:57, 26 May 2008 (EDT)
 * yes it is, just use the dagger variant of this build. (you will see it on the great farming build section)--Trev 08:11, 29 May 2008 (EDT)

Deadly Arts?
Why does this build have points in Deadly Arts? The only thing it does it make Deadly Paradox last a second or two longer, no? Does that extra bit help any?
 * Not really, but you've got the points to spare and nothing else to put them in, so why not? --71.229 03:21, 26 May 2008 (EDT)
 * The cutoff to make swiftness effect 2 is at 4, which we can't hit, so mind as well.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  09:14, 26 May 2008 (EDT)

bonder
pair with a monk hero using protective bond (+ whatever else, mending, succor, etc.) ... works great on the dagger one, should be awesome here as well ... it would let you handle a lot of the mobs in DoA with untargeted AoE, especially in gloom and the city (can't deal with chilblains in foundry, not sure about veil). i'm going to give it a try tomorrow, anybody else feel free, too.--Reason.decrystallized 19:57, 26 May 2008 (EDT)
 * thats actually a good idea to stop dervishes from screwing you, that is if they dont hit you too often. Larsie538 06:40, 27 May 2008 (EDT)
 * you know the big mob that rushes at you in ravenheart gloom? I've tanked them for 10-15 minutes at a stretch (using the dagger build).--Reason.decrystallized 06:46, 27 May 2008 (EDT)
 * ummm last i checked chilblains didn't go through shadowform and hasn't for awhile Riff 02:13, 30 May 2008 (EDT)
 * yeah i realized. that update happened while i was off the game for a while, so i missed it.--Reason.decrystallized 05:37, 30 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Oya try it, yeah and Chillbrains dont go thru shadowform anymoar. :3 --  Super Igor   *ninja!!*  05:47, 30 May 2008 (EDT)
 * okay, seriously: with a bonder you can rescue the dudes in gloom with this in hm, and cut a swath through city in hm. good times.--Reason.decrystallized 20:19, 10 June 2008 (EDT)

How do you handle the energy loss in city HM? Just regen and win?
 * the bonder takes succor, and you take GoLE. heroes don't suffer the energy loss for some reason.--Reason.decrystallized 06:11, 11 June 2008 (EDT)

Better possible variant
This is what i use currently for this, I think it works much better than the build: 1) GLoS 2) Deadly Paradox 3) Shadow Form 4) GLo Lesser Energy 5) Ebon Battle Standard of Wisdom 6) Intensity 7) Sliver Armor 8) Optional: Shadow Refuge for Touch/AoE Bosses Usage: Use first 3 in order, then use 4-5-6-1-7-8(optional). You want 16 Shadow Arts, 12 Earth, 3 Deadly Arts with a Totem Axe/Earth Scroll or similar. I Raptor Farm HM even the broodmother with this no problem. <font-color=purple>Steel_Darkblade  <font-color=purple>(Talk) 23:12, 26 May 2008 (EDT)
 * That's the Perma Sliver Form build. - [[Image:GenericWikier1.jpg|19px]] <font face="Courier New" size="2" color="black">Generic Wiki-er  23:40, 31 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Lolz, just reading through random build discussions and realized I was linking it to itself. Must have thought I was posting on another perma build :P sorry if there was any confusion - [[Image:GenericWikier1.jpg|19px]] <font face="Courier New" size="2" color="black">Generic Wiki-er  14:23, 25 June 2008 (EDT)
 * It's not the same build. Perma Sliver Form doesn't use Battle Standard of Wisdom--Vgfanatic2 10:07, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Yeah, but at the time I thought he was commenting on a dagger SF farmer. - [[Image:GenericWikier1.jpg|19px]] <font face="Courier New" size="2" color="black">Generic Wiki-er  10:29, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

Elemental Sword farmer
So where's it? Someone deleted (merged) my version. u cant use deaths charge cause u can get stuck with no escape, the dervs there can still kill u with pbaoe. Atleast note it in there somewhere...--<font color="99CCFF">R ELYK   <font color="CCCCFF">(Talk  | <font color="99CCFF"> Edits)  23:14, 26 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Sliver armor not only kills them before they can if you have at least 300 health, but Air of Superiority will also heal you too (50 health 20% chance). I've never been killed on that run.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  23:30, 26 May 2008 (EDT)

UW
just so everyone knows, this build does UW HM easily. i wield a dom staff (20% ench and +20e) and the graspings only use fear me when they are about to die for some reason. i kill the graspings and most all aatxes in the first room then head to the smites and i kill every smite. a fast run is about 15 min and a slow one is about 20. lots of ectos ftw. fyi my variant has Shadow Refuge, Feigned, and Dark Escape. i dont really need dark escape but its nice sometimes i guess. for smites just use GoS, DP, then SF. then i use GoLE, sliver, SR, then feigned. that takes care of any AoE the smites cause from trying to heal. less than 20min HM solo smite run w/ aatxes ftw. i also use it to help people cap spiders and it might even be able to solo the entire UW, but a couple of essences would be important (charged blacknesses). i saw a couple of ppl Q.Qing because they couldnt kill smites with it. well, now you know for whoever is reading this. hooray for ectos. Takeyourpills55 18:42, 31 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Side note, Grasps only use "Fear Me!" when they're near death because it's the only time they can. Adrenaline charges with damage (4 strike = dealt 100% of max health in damage iirc), so when they're near death (they'll probably regen a teensy bit of health) they unload. - [[Image:GenericWikier1.jpg|19px]] <font face="Courier New" size="2" color="black">Generic Wiki-er  18:45, 31 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Not all adren strike requirements are equal, some skills really need 3 and 1/2 of strike - takes same amount of hits ot generate, but is noticeable when you receive damage. to fully charge Fear Me you need to gain adrenaline equivalent to loosing 80% HP. Enemies have plenty of time to use it and they do, no need to regen or anything. 75.251.12.229 13:10, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * ^ Ok then, what the IP said. - [[Image:GenericWikier1.jpg|19px]] <font face="Courier New" size="2" color="black">Generic Wiki-er  02:33, 2 June 2008 (EDT)

Video
Great examples of where it works, but terrible music.--71.67.243.230 23:07, 31 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Hehe i know, but not my film xD Ashes 06:46, 1 June 2008 (EDT)

Woohoo buff
The introduction of the PvP/PvE variations now made Shadow Form lasts for a glorious 36-38 seconds!!--Dark Paladin X 20:51, 1 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Hence Perma Sliver Form. Shadow Form has become so popular that you have to wait at the Rune Trader for an hour before you can get a Rune of Superior Shadow Arts. XD -Mike 20:57, 1 June 2008 (EDT)

I had some Sup Shadow in storage :D R061N 08:54, 4 June 2008 (EDT)

Videos of Using a similar A/E Sliver build. Check them out.
Hey, I just wanted to let some people know that I also had posted a similar build/guide on guru within the first hour of the all-mighty SF update. I also made a few videos that show several areas to farm with A/E Sliver. I also wanted to say, that in no way did I "copy" anyones build when I posted mine on guru. I rarely come on PvX to be honest. But yeah, I actually came up with my own A/E build without anyones help and I am not in anyone trying to take anyones credit on similar builds. But of course, thousands of people caught on to the new SF buff and the use of Glyph of Swiftness witin the first hour of update... and everyone already knew about A/E sliver builds since beginning of Factions release. But yeah, I also have a guide for my A/E build on guru along with a few long farming videos. Enjoy! (ReZDoGG 15:41, 3 June 2008 (EDT))

Check em out here:

A/E Master Sliver of Swiftness - Part 1

A/E Master Sliver of Swiftness - Part 2

A/E Master Sliver of Swiftness - Part 3 (New)

A/E Master Sliver of Swiftness - Full IDS Run (HM) (ReZDoGG 15:41, 3 June 2008 (EDT))
 * This build was made over 12 hours before the update, and postet 15min after, lol - the neverending fight ;) Ashes 09:53, 4 June 2008 (EDT)

In case you didn't notice, nobody gives a flying fuck here who originally created whatever build. Selket Shadowdancer 10:09, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 * it is policy that the community--and not the original authors--own a build. besides which, the concept is sufficiently obvious that three thousand people came up with it simultaneously.--Reason.decrystallized 12:33, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Here is said policy before anyone asks; PvX:OWN - [[Image:GenericWikier1.jpg|19px]] <font face="Courier New" size="2" color="black">Generic Wiki-er  20:39, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 * ReZDoGG didn't say he owned the build, just that he made a similar build (pretty damn fast, too) and he submitted some videos for us to use, so we should be thankful. =P -Mike 20:59, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Reason why I said I didn't copy anyones build, was because someone came on one of my videos and was like "My build, glad you like". So in a way, I was like WTF.  I mean, like I said, everyone has been using A/E sliver builds since factions like I have.  I used to use A/E sliver for doing some major boss farming in Factions and Nightfall, when greens were actually worth something.  But yeah, of course everyone thought of using Glyph of Swiftness soon as update arrive, some even knew about it before the update went live.  But then again, I posted my guide/build as soon as I thought about it cause it was just exciting to use, and of course it took a half hour or so to write a guide.  But its all good, no need to get hostile here. I just didn't want people think I came here, found this build... then went and spent an hour writing my own guide with someones idea. Thats all I was trying to say.  But yeah, I was kinda like WTF when someone posted that comment on one of my videos.  I personally don't post videos for other peoples builds, I leave that up to them :) I am just glad Sins just own even more now, My sin has been my main character for almost 2 years now... Great to finally see alot more people realize how good they really are. (ReZDoGG 06:08, 5 June 2008 (EDT))
 * I farm with my Sin, and PvE General with my Imbagon. XD -Mike 15:25, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

Added new video to list, check it out: A/E Master Sliver of Swiftness - Part 3 (New) (ReZDoGG 03:09, 10 June 2008 (EDT))

Yes I AM very lazy
On my assassin, I hardly did EOTN, (only completed the charr parts), and now I don't feel like doing the asura parts tonight.

Is Air of Superiority a necessity? I do plan on getting it... just not tonight... because I am a lazy ass. xD Dances With Pets 22:07, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
 * You don't need it, it is just very nice to have it (check out what it does, very useful), but it works perfectly fine without it / Fros  T  alk  \ 22:04, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Ah, okay. Thanks very much!  :D  Dances With Pets 22:07, 13 June 2008 (EDT)

Hay, I'm lazier
I havent even bothered doin EoTN with my sin, Do I still ahve to posibility to farm UW HM.. tha darned Aataxes seem unwilling..Kiting bastards! (83.109.78.120 20:35, 18 June 2008 (EDT))
 * Don't use this for UW. Use the Chaos Fields Farmer. Way more ectos.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  21:46, 18 June 2008 (EDT)
 * why waste time with the 20 or so aatxes when you could be killing the 200 mindblade spectres faster?--Reason.decrystallized 00:26, 19 June 2008 (EDT)
 * 0.0 is it really 200 lol? --[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  00:35, 19 June 2008 (EDT)
 * 18 spectres per horsey, plus pop-ups. if it's not, it's close.--Reason.decrystallized 18:31, 22 June 2008 (EDT)

Farming locations
We don't have any. Discuss. --Guild of Deals<font color="Black"> * Wah <font color="DAA520">Wah  Wah! * 09:58, 22 June 2008 (EDT)
 * most of UW. lots of FoW.--Reason.decrystallized 10:53, 22 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Raptors, Monolith Temple, All of the eternal grove explorable--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  12:49, 22 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I added some new locations, and keep adding them when I got time. I also made some changes to appearence -- Naatio

Guild Wars Guru
Could we, with saying it's from there, copy their farming locations and add on to them?

Since it doesn't seem like they are adding to it. > .>

The list is here:

I am sure we could do a better job at finding farming locations since they don't add to it. (I think) Dances With Pets 13:28, 22 June 2008 (EDT)


 * I do updated it if find new areas, but I pretty much found all the good ones worth farming, or most of them anyways. I still try it out in new areas here and there.  Only campaign I really haven't tested the build much there, is Propheces, which I am sure there are more places there it can farm. I have just been busy doing other things atm.  If you guys find any places worth farming that are not mentioned, let me know and I'll add them.  (ReZDoGG 19:34, 22 June 2008 (EDT))


 * If you can do a better job, lets see it :) (ReZDoGG 08:57, 24 June 2008 (EDT))


 * I don't recall ever saying I could do better. Ever.  > .<  Dances With Pets 15:29, 25 June 2008 (EDT)

Ranks?
I have a low lvl vanguard rank and no asura rank yet. What will I need them to be at for this build to be any good? --Vgfanatic2 13:12, 24 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Shouldn't need to high rank, the higher the faster though. God  box    13:35, 24 June 2008 (EDT)

destroyer challenge
i farm cores with that build but i cant survive at the second wave.any tips?
 * It depends on what's killing you. If it's Destroyers of Compassion's Heart of Holy Flame, you could try to take the Bonder, but I'm not sure if he would be killed by the Destroyers. -Mike 07:45, 25 June 2008 (EDT)

Energy Problems
How do you maintain energy if you use Glyph of Swiftness on Sliver Armor instead of Glyph of Lesser Energy. I keep messing up and I don't want to use Glyph of Lesser Energy on Sliver Armor cause it makes it slower recharge. --Vgfanatic2 12:49, 25 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I assume that's what Air of Superiority is for. You shouldn't need Glyph of Lesser Energy if you've got decent ranks. -Mike 12:49, 25 June 2008 (EDT)
 * You use glyph of lesser energy on Sliver armor...For certain farms there are huge mobs so air of superiority will give you +5 energy for a lot of the kills so you can use Swiftness on Sliver, however if the group is small, don't. Basically, If you think you would still be able to cast Shadow form again by the time you need to, go ahead, if not, don't.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  13:00, 25 June 2008 (EDT)

Thx. --Vgfanatic2 13:12, 25 June 2008 (EDT)

Nerf
Imo this is one of the few builds that can still somewhat survive. I'm sure the monolith temple can still be farmed, along with raptor and a few other areas with ridiculous mob size--<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  00:45, 3 July 2008 (EDT)


 * [[Image:Byesf.GIF]]-Nah.-- Çâñdëròú§§   ¿  00:49, 3 July 2008 (EDT)


 * So you're saying that a farm where every time one of the 110 enemies attacks or fails a spell, thus causing about 20 damage, isn't enough to farm it? Oh ok.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  01:58, 3 July 2008 (EDT)


 * Never heard of sig humil? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 14:34, 13 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Never have done the run before huh? It's a 1.5 cast time, SF will cast in 2/3 second. Don't suck.-- ツ <font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva" color ="black">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva" color="black">Assassin  18:36, 28 September 2008 (EDT)


 * 1.5s + fast casting + over nine thousand foes. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 20:33, 28 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Ok its realy easy to farm monaliths lol all u gotta do is dont take AoS becuase that will recharge SF therefor they will disable it..and just cast GoS+DP b4 SF is completely charged,if u dont encounter lag and are fast enough they will never disable it...but mystic twister does kill u a sometimes,Imo its no problem becuase once u kill a few Monaliths your DP goes away (in hard mode).Fire and deaths 23:26, 30 November 2008 (EST)

.......
Soo... they nerfed the build, which made it considerably slower... even though it was still a slower build for killing things.

It was always slow... but it was safe. Now not only have they made it even slower, it is no longer safe... >.< Dances With Pets 11:28, 3 July 2008 (EDT)

Unarchive?
The build still works, tho slower... Still good for green farming etc... &mdash; <font color="#00ff84">eX <font color="#00a2ff">tinctioN  (<font color="#ff8a00">Talk /<font color="#ff5400">Contributions ) 05:18, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Move into testing imo. Selket Shadowdancer 05:22, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
 * i agree. i'll bother the AN about a vote wipe.--Reason.decrystallized 06:06, 11 August 2008 (EDT)

Locations
are they still the same as pre-nerf? <font color="41 69 E1">Ace <font color ="#0099FF">(LVPoW) 01:49, 12 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Probably not all of them...&mdash; [[Image:DestructiveWasGlaiveInvert.jpg|20px]] <font color="#00ff84">eX <font color="#00a2ff">tinctioN (<font color="#ff8a00">Talk /<font color="#ff5400">Contributions ) 03:01, 12 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Raptors are still very easily doable. Selket Shadowdancer 04:41, 12 August 2008 (EDT)
 * chaos plains are still doable but excruciatingly slow. you'd be better off using it elsewhere tbh.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized    In real life, pokemons would be used as sex toys.  06:41, 12 August 2008 (EDT)

I've discovered
This could be to my own nubishness but I think a "counter" would be that, if the Sliver armor doesn't target the boss the first time, or at the least, the second roll-around, it's pretty much a fail. I've recovered nicely on three to four Twist Jaw hits but, due to cooldowns and sliver not targeting, I ultimately end up dieing. Just a little tidbit.-  Vanguard  11:29, 28 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Shadowstepping helps target-- Shadow [[Image:Relyk Sig.gif]] 11:17, 7 October 2008 (EDT)


 * Yeah, but not always (though I've not experimented in casting sliver and then shadowstepping). -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 13:37, 7 October 2008 (EDT)
 * It works on the Broodmother, but not some bosses like Avatar of Dwayna-- Shadow [[Image:Relyk Sig.gif]] 23:32, 7 October 2008 (EDT)
 * sliver armor is a little ... weird. it seems to like higher-lvl targets that you have cast at least one skill on.  but then sometimes not.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized    I frenzy-healsig.  23:54, 7 October 2008 (EDT)
 * i dunno it is wierd cause in tombs it targets terrorwebs, scythes of chaos and then the banished dream riders....size maybe? [[Image:That Twin Tom sig.jpg|19px]] That  Twin   Tom  03:09, 8 October 2008 (EDT)
 * terrorwebs are the biggest, but dream riders are bigger than scythes.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized   I frenzy-healsig.  05:25, 8 October 2008 (EDT)
 * reverse alphabetical order of name? :P-- reason ' . ' decrystallized   I frenzy-healsig.  05:26, 8 October 2008 (EDT)

Actually, it doesn't even always follow that pattern. For the most part it targets casters over melee, but I've had a few casters run in on me on huge wurm + grasp pulls and it's knocked down the wurm.

I've thought for a long time that there's some algorithm that assigns each monster a priority number and beats the highest priority within range, but it seems to wipe the priority every now and then after it ends. I've given up on it as a bad job; it's just far too random to have any reliable knowledge on how to hit a specific enemy for me.

-- Armond Warblade 08:46, 8 October 2008 (EDT)
 * lol but banished dream riders are ghostly so harder to hit? [[Image:That Twin Tom sig.jpg|19px]] That  Twin   Tom  12:24, 8 October 2008 (EDT)

About Raptors

 * In terms of raptors I much prefer the build perma sliver speed, i find it to be much faster and more effective than raw damage alone. User: X The Old Man X

Better
instead of ....IMO. Avatar Kuzon 15:03, 5 October 2008 (EDT)


 * Jesus christ that's a good skill. Guess my sin'll be doing some deldrimor stuff soonish... Also, as air sup is kinda... unnecessary (weapon swap to zealous and you're good on energy, instant recharge isn't quite as amazing when it's that unreliable, and the other benefits are worthless), just grab both. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 01:31, 6 October 2008 (EDT)
 * yeah, i'm very much in agreement with putting that in instead of either intensity or air sup. better in so many ways ... shout instead of spell, recharge the same as sliver armor rather than 1.5x, etc, etc.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized    I frenzy-healsig.  11:06, 6 October 2008 (EDT)
 * changes made. looks pretty good, i think--the six skills are the "core" of the build, and then mix and match optionals to taste/customize against what you're fighting.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized    I frenzy-healsig.  11:38, 6 October 2008 (EDT)
 * by urals hammer is good but how u gonna get ur health below 50%? [[Image:That Twin Tom sig.jpg|19px]] That  Twin   Tom  03:00, 7 October 2008 (EDT)
 * oh ok dont worry didnt know you got and automatic 10secs [[Image:That Twin Tom sig.jpg|19px]] That  Twin   Tom  03:01, 7 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Even if you didn't, you could just pop shadow form once, let it die for a second, and pop it again. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 03:02, 7 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Or run a vamp set. --71.229 03:07, 7 October 2008 (EDT)
 * It also helps to leave you're shadow arts at 4 at the start, cast it, let it run out, then raise the attribute back up. Use vamp to keep it down.-- ツ <font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva" color ="black">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva" color="black">Assassin  06:37, 7 October 2008 (EDT)
 * good ideas but the one bout letting it run out and then recasting? lol ive done that a few times in tombs cause on energy problems but its VERY risky lol i wudnt sugggest it ;) [[Image:That Twin Tom sig.jpg|19px]] That  Twin   Tom  09:54, 7 October 2008 (EDT)


 * You have energy problems when you spawn? That's pretty pro. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 10:40, 7 October 2008 (EDT)

made a couple further changes to attributes, equipment, and usage. just to clarify things for people who don't naturally get the whole "take a zealous and auto-attack while you're waiting on your thirty second recharges".-- reason '''.  decrystallized '  I frenzy-healsig. '' 05:44, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
 * i some places u cant auto attack like vs bladded aaxte who use riposte...altho that wud help get ur health below 50 for urals hammer [[Image:That Twin Tom sig.jpg|19px]] That  Twin   Tom  11:38, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
 * well, yeah, but that kinda goes without saying.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized   I frenzy-healsig.  12:08, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
 * yh i guess but u mite wanna add it to notes? like dont attack in some places such as bla bla theres probably a load which causes foes to use certain skills[[Image:That Twin Tom sig.jpg|19px]] That  Twin   Tom  12:18, 9 October 2008 (EDT)
 * What have u done to my build :O .... ITS AMAZING! Ashes 14:01, 18 October 2008 (EDT)

You could always bring heroes and have them suicide in the mob you're gonna kill, it would add extra time to "BUH!". 16:04, 21 October 2008 (EDT)


 * Yeah, except this is a farming build. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 23:04, 21 October 2008 (EDT)
 * do ded heroes take up drops? [[Image:That Twin Tom sig.jpg|19px]] That  Twin   Tom  15:23, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Pull the enemies out of the heroes' aggro range...? C'mon dude, it's not complicated. Use "BUH!", pull mob. Simple concept. 15:54, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Drops are compass-wide. You would have to flag heroes out of your radar range and have them die there, and I'm pretty sure that's out of range for BUH. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 18:22, 22 October 2008 (EDT)
 * so ded heroes in compass range take up drops......but out of compass range dont affect BUH? wow sounds like a foolproff and perfect idea [[Image:That Twin Tom sig.jpg|19px]] That  Twin   Tom  15:39, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Armond, in case you can't read English correctly (You seem like a gayeuro to me), let me try to restate in simple terms. Flag heroes in mob. Let heroes die. Aggro mob. Use "BUH!". Run OUT OF DROPS RANGE. Kill mob. More time for "BUH!" is win. (To show you the difference, you go from "BUH!" lasting 10 seconds without having to pull the mob (10 SECONDS TOTAL). With the dead heroes, you get 40 seconds of "BUH!" with having to pull the mob (so, giving 20 seconds to pull the mob, which is unreasonable, you still have more time than without the heroes, 20+ SECONDS TOTAL). 17:23, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
 * or you could just keep your own health below 50% with a vamp and have it outlast sliver form anyway.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized   I frenzy-healsig.  21:09, 23 October 2008 (EDT)
 * meh wat if ur tryin to kill like a load of foes and when u try n get out of hero range they run away or you need to mob up the foes which wud take time out of BUH....tbh using a vamp to keep health low is easier and well....more practical [[Image:That Twin Tom sig.jpg|19px]] That  Twin   Tom  11:41, 24 October 2008 (EDT)

Monolith Temple Farm
I tried this and did exactly what it said, but the dervish boss keeps killing me. Any suggestions? --Vgfanatic2 12:28, 9 November 2008 (EST)
 * Don't shadow step to the bosses. If you have AoS up you should get healed through the whole thing. If you still have trouble take dark escape.-- ツ <font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva" color ="black">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva" color="black">Assassin  07:01, 10 November 2008 (EST)
 * you cannot take AoS because then SF will recharge and the monaliths will use Sig of Humility and Disable it,the derv boss does deal a shit load of damage and 2 mystic twisters is all it takes to die usualy,if u die dont worry becuase in HM u loose DP alot faster,as long as u kill a few guys b4 u die again u wont reach 60%.Fire and deaths 23:31, 30 November 2008 (EST)

Scatter
Any ideas how to avoid scatter in Hard Mode?
 * More enemies or Grasping Earth.-- ツ <font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva" color ="black">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva" color="black">Assassin  06:58, 10 November 2008 (EST)
 * Grasping Earth is your best friend... &mdash; [[Image:DestructiveWasGlaiveInvert.jpg|20px]] <font color="#00ff84">eX <font color="#00a2ff">tinctioN (<font color="#ff8a00">Talk /<font color="#ff5400">Contributions ) 08:00, 12 November 2008 (EST)
 * keep your health low, unless they changed it.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized   I frenzy-healsig.  19:37, 21 November 2008 (EST)
 * That works too, but somehow not with all mobs, especially in HM. &mdash; [[Image:DestructiveWasGlaiveInvert.jpg|20px]] <font color="#00ff84">eX <font color="#00a2ff">tinctioN (<font color="#ff8a00">Talk /<font color="#ff5400">Contributions ) 17:04, 22 November 2008 (EST)

E/A
could it be done?
 * sign ur comments pl0x. yes and no.  the breakpoint at which shadow form becomes maintainable with glyph is 13 shadow arts.  eles can only get that with cons.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized    I frenzy-healsig.  07:41, 23 November 2008 (EST)

Which weapons are best?
The equipment section currently does not state which weapons are optimal - it noes not specify whether zealous daggers or scythes gain you more energy, nor does it say that a max energy staff of enchanting gets you 3 more energy than the weapon/focus combo mentioned. What are the actual optimal weapons? Opinions and testing results are both invited, but please specify your reasons for your opinions or your facts. --War_Pig5 11:15, 29 November 2008 (EST)
 * frankly it doesn't matter so long as you have 20% enchants.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized   I frenzy-healsig.  11:47, 29 November 2008 (EST)
 * and i base that on my experience of permaforming even before the buff, and of using multiple builds with dozens of different equipment sets ever since. all you actually "need" is the +enchant mod--everything else is just personal preference/nice to have.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized    I frenzy-healsig.  11:48, 29 November 2008 (EST)
 * actually, @16 shadow arts, you don't even need that. take what you like/have.  it's ALL just icing on the cake.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized    I frenzy-healsig.  11:52, 29 November 2008 (EST)
 * When I asked the question, I understood completely that none of these weapons are strictly necessary. Sorry for failing to make that clear. I'm interested in which is best. The original author recommends weapon+focus (17 energy) over staff (15 energy + 5 conditionally, and sometimes faster recharge time of non-earth spells). Still, someone may post here that they prefer a staff and, hopefully, give a reason why. To elaborate on the other issue I mentioned: it appears that a zealous scythe generally gives more energy than zealous daggers. A non-green max zealous +5 20% scythe seems to produce maximum energy (and the highest damage possible without sacrificing energy). I think scythe should not just get a parenthetical mention in the article - it should be recommended over daggers (and and any other zealous weapons, which will, of course, work in a pinch). --War_Pig5 18:20, 29 November 2008 (EST)
 * there isn't a "best". it's really all preference ... zealous scythe would usually get more energy than daggers, but the difference isn't worth buying a zealous scythe if you already have the daggers.  staff is less energy, but has a 20% recharge ALL spells.  it really and truly is just preference.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized    I frenzy-healsig.  19:34, 29 November 2008 (EST)

I find Droknar's Earth Staff is particularly effective for perma sliver, you get 20% HSR on all spells (including SF) and 20% HCR, which isn't really all that important. Frankly i find that makes up for losing the two extra energy an offhand provides.--<font color=#C68E17>Golden <font color=#C68E17>Star 18:29, 29 November 2008 (EST)
 * i use that, too. though i've also used totem axe/random offhand.  and i think that the daggers should stay under the equipment, because everyone has zealous daggers, whereas nt everyone has a zealous scythe, and the difference isn't worth going to buy one.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized    I frenzy-healsig.  19:29, 29 November 2008 (EST)

Nerfed
This build has been nerfed SF last like 20 seconds now and has a 45 sec recharge A.K.A energy problems
 * GoLE. no moar problems.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized    I frenzy-healsig.  23:30, 11 December 2008 (EST)

lol using GoLE on SF is not possible, because of GoS. Illoyon 16:16, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * Use GolE on any other spell..like EBSoH+sliver armor duh.and this will still be able to farm all the bosses that i was able to farm under a minute before the update.Fire and deaths 16:47, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * also im not even sure u need GoS anymore with update,going to check though.Fire and deaths 16:48, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * you still need it, qq. although tbh you might be able to get away with not using GoLE at all if you take a zealous weapon and autoattack with it.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized    I frenzy-healsig.  16:59, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * GoLE still charges 5e and perma cost u 30e but e-regen is exactly 30e when SF is ready again
 * And if u run this build for smites u need Feigned Neutrality for healing which means extra 5e
 * So its total of 10e wasted that e-regen cant give back and its impossiblr to use zealos weapon on simtes cause u'll die from SoJ
 * signing fail+theory fail. use zealous spear on the coldfires and shadow refuge not feigned, and btw there are things besides smites that are still worth farming, fyi.  like labyrinth, where you can plink the grasps with daggers for energy.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized    I frenzy-healsig.  09:02, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * Not to mention most bosses in the game, who will die by - or before - the second SF goes up anyway, which generally leaves you with energy to spare. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]]<font color="#237d00"> Ĵĩôřũĵĩ Đēŗāķō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  15:26, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * I must say I havn't thought about attacking the coldfires which might work cause u get around 38e which keeps SF up and gives u almost enough for complete cycle :O!!
 * P.S killing grasps sucks like hell they don't drop anything xD
 * aatxes do ;)-- reason ' . ' decrystallized   I frenzy-healsig.  16:59, 13 December 2008 (EST)

WTF
Why 3 in dagger mastery u mean Deadly Arts?
 * no i don't fail less plz.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized   I frenzy-healsig.  16:36, 21 December 2008 (EST)
 * no, he has a point...there is no reason why you should have dagger. having points in deadly arts can give you a longer time to get in SF before it may end...it doesn't matter because you just need it for at most 2 seconds... but yea...-- Ikimono <font color ="Teal">I know Paragons. Listen Padowan [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 17:19, 21 December 2008 (EST)
 * EBSoH+BUH=uber damage--[[Image:Relyk chtistmas2.jpg|20px]] Christmas Relyk  17:20, 21 December 2008 (EST)
 * dagger mastery is for auto attacking. it's where your energy comes from, and why you can run this without running out.  if you're using a scythe then take critical strikes instead.  there IS something to be gained from taking that, but NOT from deadly arts.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized    I frenzy-healsig.  17:22, 21 December 2008 (EST)
 * lol putting ponit into dagger wont do shit, zelous will always give 1 energy per hit no matter what and points in dagger will only make ur daggers do more damage, not increase your chance for a critical hit so unless ur joing to bother kiling one taret earlier than the rest theres no ponit in taking points in dagger
 * Double strike. please make sure you understand the attribute before you shoot it down. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]]<font color="#237d00"> Ĵĩôřũĵĩ Đēŗāķō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  13:06, 30 December 2008 (EST)
 * 3 points in Daggers means 9% double strike chance which = 1 extra energy every 13 seconds of attacking Vs 3 points in Deadly which = a few extra seconds of deadly paradox which can give a sooner cast meaning your energy managment is spread out and your energy does not ever stay maxed (with a +4e pip weapon). which would also give you 2 available energy every 20 odd seconds. Either way it makes naff all differance. and on a different note i think SF is still possible with 15 Shadow arts but it cuts it stupidly close - just thought I would throw that out there as the bold comment on the main page is not technically correct. 90.207.245.10 08:25, 2 January 2009 (EST) <- forgot to log in Xiay 08:30, 2 January 2009 (EST)
 * You can "maintain" it at 14. SF lasts 20s, plus 20% enchant mod = 24s. Recharge time is 45s, reduced by 25% (GoS) = 33.75 reduce by 33% (DP) = 22.61 ~=23 (rounds up I believe). So your cutting it close at 14, but if you pre cast GoS and DP, you can get it spot on (but you have to cast as soon as SF recharges), so it's maintainable at 15. <font color="#4F94CD"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#9400D3">Sysop   08:40, 2 January 2009 (EST)
 * I have amended the wording now to reflect this better Xiay 09:10, 2 January 2009 (EST)

The New Shadow Form Farmer Build
The New Shadow Form Farmer Build i shoved togeather =]

Attributes and Skills
[build prof=Assassin/Elementalist air=4 earth=9 dagger=7+3 shadow=12+1+3] [Glyph of Swiftness][Deadly Paradox][Shadow Form][Sliver Armor][Golden Lotus Strike][Lotus Strike][Way of the lotus][Death Blossom][/build]

Equipment
+3 Dagger mastery +1 shadow arts headpiece +3 Shadow arts Full attunments Full radients 20% enchanting daggers req 10/9 max damage is best (20% enchant REQUIRED)
 * The build ABOVE my post is my friends build. He posted it as a Perma Daggers Farmer Variant and it was there for a long time. Now it's gone...If you don't believe me, check youtube(Tomb of the Primeval Kings Clear Solo) -[[Image:KamisSig.png]]<font face="calibri" color="black" variant="small caps">15:32, 5 March 2009
 * yeah, i soloed it too ... daggers/sliver hybrids don't actually work as well as either separately, imo.--Reason.decrystallized 20:55, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Usage
Ok The new nerf gives you about a second to put shadow form back up, and it only just gives you enough energy. best thing you can do with this bar is use your chain of swiftness, paradox, form. After that put up sliver armour. Then put up way of the fox ready for when your attack skills recharge. When your attack skills do recharge, use your chain. You will get up to full energy and it leaves pleanty of time to re-do shadow form and it gives you enough energy to put up sliver and shadow and chain it as much as you like. This can farm the underworld, raptors and common eotn farms

Counters
Signets as useual, Signet of midnight will kill your energy, Leech signet will wreak your build AoE attacks like Flame Burst. Weapon spells eg. Weapon of warding will kill your energy, if weapon of Remedy, Xinrai's weapon, or vengeful weapon is used, back away and wait for it to end.

Equipment Question
So, let me just clarify something, AL is not important right? So I can just use any starter armor cause I don't want to buy a set of full armor just for the purpose of farming with this build. Also, is the scythe/dagger for when I am not putting up Shadow Form and Sliver Armor? So that would require me switching my weapons around all the time? Or is the scythe/dagger not even needed? 76.100.249.38 17:08, 12 January 2009 (EST)Razaac
 * AL isn't massively important, but higher is preferred (because there are some kind of attacks that can still hit you). The scythe/daggers are zealous, so you can gain energy by Auto attacking (c ---> Space bar (basically)), so like you say, when you're not putting up SF or SA. Depending on where you are, and what optional skill (and variants) you take, you will probably need them (although with GoLE on he bar you might be all right...) <font color="#4F94CD"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#9400D3">Sysop   17:17, 12 January 2009 (EST)

I see, thank you, so I should invest some money after all to make higher AL. However, from what I've seen, this build will pay for itself very quickly, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong though. Also, which one is better to use for auto-attacking? zealous daggers, zealous scythe of fortitude, or zealous scythe of enchanting? or are they all pretty much work equally as well.76.100.249.38 17:20, 12 January 2009 (EST)Razaac
 * Get the scythe of fort if you are in a melee mob or are good at aggroing (balling up), otherwise daggers of enchanting. Yes, this build pays for itself VERY quickly, especially if you learn to do UWSC, where you can make 5+ ectos in one run, not counting your chance to get an eternal blade or similar (I've seen three people get them :O) --[[Image:Tai_Sig.png]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">17:28, 12 January 2009 

Shadow Form Recharge Time
At the time of posting, Glyph of Swiftness (25% recharge time taken away, or 75% of recharge time left) and Deadly Paradox (33% reduction, 66% remaining) should combine to give half of the recharge, which is 22.5 seconds. To my best knowledge, recharge time reduction is multiplicative, so the remaining recharge time would be: .75 * .66 = 0.495. This is capped at 50%, so it ends up being: 45sec * .5 = 22.5s. The article, however states that recharge time will be reduced to 30 seconds. On a side note: with a 20% enchanting mod, and 16 shadow magic, it will last for 22 * 1.2 = 26.4 seconds, allotting for an approximate 4 second window in between the time that SF will recharge and when it will run out (which may or may not be useful information). Degensquared 06:58, 3 April 2009 (UTC) it used to have 60r. if it bothers you that no one edited the articl, feel free to do so yourself.--Reason.decrystallized 20:57, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Probably a leftover from the pre-neft SF (that had longer duration and a 60 sec recharge. 60/2=30 so that would be right.) Feel free to correct it. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 18:52, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, thanks. Didn't even occur to me that the post was talking about a longer recharge than the one in the current build, heh. Degensquared 03:47, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Ze Fizzure Ov Woe
Dark escape over by urals hammer, stick dash in the optional and BOOM! a FoW farming build, i clear the beach and spider cave in 30 mins HM Elegent 23:03, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Free AoE degen
Instead of "By Ural's Hammer!" and as the optional skill, one could also use Ear Bite+Signet of Infection when farming non-humans for maintainable AoE degen with no energy cost. Throan Loremaker 12:12, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Where is the best place to farm golds and money
After the nerf with hundered blades in FoW, where is the best place for farming money and goldies with this build?

moving skills
shouldnt we change it to deadly paradox, shadow form, GoLE, EBSoH, SA, BUH seeming as EBSoH lasts for 14-20 seconds giving you the full time of SA under the effect of it == IM GONA RIGHT THIS EVERYWARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!MUAHHA!!! NERF NERF NERF NERF A NERF A NERF NERF NERF!NERF NERF A NERF A NERF A NERF NERF!! CMON BITCHES NERF ME MUAHAHHAHAHAHAHA Lame anet dogs go die!!!!!!!!!
 * You forgot Glyph of Swiftness. Also: Remove "BUH!" and it's the build I use on my sin. Throan Loremaker 15:00, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

More doable bosses
I know for certain that Vanahk in Yatendi Canyons can be soloed with this build in HM. Got his green twice. Throan Loremaker 14:16, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Just so ya know
i was just wandering thru nf, and was doing To Vabbi!... this cause massive mobs of kournans (are they always there?) anyways this build can clear the whole place in like 10 mins? worth mentioning? Kournans drop runes like crazy, and the boss is good for elite ele tomes... do it in HM. Effin NPA's  YOU  03:25, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Captain Alsin
Walking backwards is no help whatsoever when fighting him in HM. He still runs away from me, and there's not much I can do about it.--99.230.145.201 01:17, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * usually wanding gets annoying bosses to stay where they are.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 01:18, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You have to approach it the exact same way you approach mindblades, but you do have to wand as Sliver is going off as well, or he'll kite due to that large amount of damage taken. I figured everyone wanded anyway for extra damage. =/ ··· [[File:Danny-sig.png]] 17:45, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I has a totem axe, but okay.--99.230.145.201 23:44, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * you can always get the caster spear at the end of nf too :P--Relyk 23:46, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Focus of Hanaku
He is not a boss but easily killed and drop a unique item,should I add him to the list? Lass 20:22, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Add Admiral Kantoh to Farmable
The ele boss in Jahai Bluff, Admiral Kantoh can be farmed quite easily and has a good green weapon. The only thing u need to watch out for is aftershock from the eles, so just add a death charges ( the reason for deaths charge over shadow refuge is it help to get to the boss's location). Also, how do u sign ur comments?
 * You press the button that looks like a signature... Or ~ -- Ikimono "Mutton Chop Man" [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png|24px]] 09:01, September 7, 2009 (UTC)

raptor farm...
is there a special hint? sliver nearly never target broodmother first...so its just impossible to farm them with the degeneration speed variant. Illoyon 16:25, September 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * I heard you should target the broodmother and get as close as possible to it. -- -Ch  ao  s-   16:28, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

even with a shadow step it just nearly never work
 * in the raptor nest whichever target enters last is usually the one it targets first (or at least it looks that way). But i always try and target broodmother.-- Ikimono "Mutton Chop Man" [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png|24px]] 16:46, September 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * If you have the bounty on, there should be a "Defeat Rekoff Broodmother!" at the top of your screen when you agro broodmother. Stop and start wanding Rekoff. That should work. &mdash; <font color="#7777CC">Balistic 03:33, October 12, 2009 (UTC)

Flame of Fervor
With a high enough Ebon rank, You can definitely do it in HM with a single scythe of Chaos. Just make sure you bring Shadow Refuge and LB Signet for Energy after Shadow Refuge spam. With 2 you pretty much can't do it, but with 1, its very possible. Also, if it needs to be said, Avoid the pain titans. They'll usually steal your sliver and pretty much ruin your run because of the Madness titans that come out. Duct Tape

Grenths footprint wimpy bosses
bosses keep running around while i try and get adjacent to use sliver form. Not even just scattering from damage, they simply wont let me get near them. I managed to get the ele boss stuck in a corner once, but never when theyre out in the open, especially with the Yakslapper. Any help?  Dark <font color="#303030">ling <font color="#660066">N 20:23, November 14, 2009 (UTC)
 * Caster mobs in general sometimes do this until you kill some of the other casters in their group. You pretty much have to kill some of the other casters before engaging them; if I'm thinking of the same situation as you, wanding them doesn't help. If possible, aggro less casters but I don't know if that's feasible or not. <font face="Courier New" color="Black">Toraen <font face="Courier New" color="DarkGoldenrod">TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png]] 23:27, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Easy. Just keep using SF and following the Boss/Priest of Sorrow around. Eventually he will run to a wall/rock. Just bodyblock him in and use Sliver Form. I got Drago's Bow this way.Wynne 23:45, November 14, 2009 (UTC)Wynne
 * Ok, thanks for the help :)  Dark <font color="#303030">ling <font color="#660066">N 23:43, November 16, 2009 (UTC)

Talkpage Needs Archiving.
--<font color ="Blue">Ikimono <font color ="Brown"> "...And my axe!" 00:17, November 17, 2009 (UTC)