Build talk:E/A Assassin's Promise/Archive 1

air magic is shitty damage-- Relyk  talk  16:32, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * especially without cracked armour.-- Amor 

16:35, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * It has cracked armor. Lightning Orb does that. Bacon 22:25, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The niche of air magic is quick recharge skills... It doesnt feel like youre using your elite slot very well, a dedicated air magic elite would proably add overall much more to the build than the recharge AP gives. Besides, there are other E/A AP spiker builds out there, notably, and even that one (which i think is as good as AP spike using ele skills will get) does not compare to a more generic pve skill type bar. Potatosoup 17:19, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The issue with that AP fire build is that what it gains with AP and instant recharge and energy, it loses to exhaustion. I do have other builds based around using air elites, working on writing a few of those up. The air spell recharges are relatively insignificant, save for perhaps the glyph of lesser energy, to keep energy up. The beauty is in instant-recharges of the pve only skills.
 * This bar with ymlad-evas-fh is actually one of the best ele bars for general h/h pve. 206.110.20.2 17:32, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Which is how it's intended to be used, I should probably clarify that. Out of personal preference, I usually go with PI over FH, but both are similarly effective. Bacon 22:44, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Is not the best monk bar for PvE, hence we won't be vetting a build on pvx just because of the three pve skills. --Chieftain Alex 17:52, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Replace amity with AP and it is one of the best monk bars, sadly. 206.110.20.2 19:38, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * @potato; Fire magic, with AP or no AP, is shittier than Air. Earth is best, as you atleast get some utility. You can also use Maelstorm on a 0 water spec for rupting joy. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 01:33, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Earth Variant
Added an earth variant after testing it in a few HM missions. If there's any issues that need to be addressed, post em here. Looking to send this up for vetting in the next few days or so. Bacon 16:36, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * your variant is bad. Drop the skills that already have a low recharge. 206.110.20.2 17:28, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Just did a vanquish with this variant, and the churning earth does work rather well. However with this, I would move some points out of something towards energy storage. In that run, there was just not enough energy for comfort and the PvE specific skills to give any room for error. 11-11-10 was probably too much to energy storage, but I definitely see 12-11-6 being more usable. You'd save an extra 2 energy/cast with the glyph (4 total) and only lose 1 second and 1 energy on AP. Also, I would not make EBSH one of the slots. Optional, definitely, but not part of the core of the build. Reason being carrying YMLAD as an interrupt, EVAS for damage, then it's a tossup between PI, EBSH, and FH as to what would be most useful for a third pve-only slot. With that, I'm changing the variant to reflect this. Thanks for the input.Bacon 20:16, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * why bother? the build is going to be deleted-- Relyk  talk  20:30, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * There's not a duplicate and the build does work in practice in hard mode, as the threat of AoE scatter is neutralized by the knockdown. So why would this build be deleted? Am I missing a reason? Bacon 03:05, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Energy Storage is NOT Energy Management. You don't need it. You have to maintain Earth Attunement and spam GoLE between every few kills. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 22:40, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Never said anything about energy management, just about having a large enough pool to work from to begin with. It's a bar of very high energy cost skills, and a little bit of extra energy (12 in this case) in the initial pool helps, especially at such a small cost to the rest of the build. Bacon 00:33, 16 February 2011 (UTC)


 * ^The 2 best non-ER ele bars for general pve. Life Guardian 23:29, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Missing Ebsoh on the earth ele, then I'd agree. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 23:30, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Debatable. In a h/h team, id probably say yes. Otherwise, there are better carriers of ebsoh tbh. Losing one of those 3 pve skills when using ap is kinda meh. Life Guardian 23:37, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I like my meteor shower spam-- Relyk  talk  00:57, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Indeed, mereor shower spam is awesome, that's why I use fire AP ele most of the times ;) -- InStars 19:18, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Name Change
AP Air/Earth or AP Elementalist. Flick into Testing. Minion  13:03, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * mainbar pve skills and then change the optionals to situational replacements with explanations of when to use them. 206.110.20.2 16:18, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Do you mean to amalgamate the two bars into one? Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 16:27, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeh, but it make so YMLaD, AP, EVAS & FH, GoLE are mainbar with the optional having free slots for attunement and 2 elemental damage skills.-- Amor  [[Image:Accelerated_Growth.jpg|19px]] 16:29, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * happy with ma wikifoo? Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 16:43, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Went ahead and made the rest of the article consistent with the changes to having two primary builds instead of variants. Looks good to me. Bacon 19:47, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Good, apart from the Notes section. I really hate endorsing Discordway because of it's, well, shitterness. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 23:04, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I understand that. I usually run it with sabway, spiritway, or a balanced team in those cursed nightfall areas where you have to use their hero. List it in the "see also" set of builds instead maybe? I just can't see leaving the discordway team off the build completely, as it has good synergy, even if there's better options. Bacon 15:39, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

The Air Variant
Should really be replaced with Fire. How exactly is using 5-6 recharge skills synergize with AP? AP's potential is reached with skills with 20-30 seconds on recharge (i.e. Searing Heat, Fire Storm, etc). I propose a Fire variant with high recharge skills, to take more advantage of AP.
 * Air has better spiking potential, thanks to armor penetration and cracked armor. In hard mode, fire is quite worthless. AP is more so you can spike with the PvE skills repeatedly. The air skills just help with that goal so you can be more sure of AP working. Toraen TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png|link=User:Toraen]] 01:43, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Cracked armor is good in PvE HM, true. Wouldn't a Curse Necro provide that for you with Weaken Armor though?
 * If you run with a curse necro hero, it can, but that's not always available or on the right targets. In terms of a single target spike damage, lightning orb is the strongest air spell (tied with lightning hammer, but at 10 less energy). Bacon 15:24, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

i thought
we welled this shit for being a specced out discord caller, even if it's not? -- Brandnew. 06:54, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
 * It's not exclusive to a discord caller, and it's a unique build that is not posted as an individual build. A suggestion of a similar build appears as part of a team, but with elementalist options being thin, why would this be welled, instead of recognized as a viable build? And besides, if this build is to be welled, why not Build:Me/A Assassin's Promise be welled too? Or Build:N/A Assassin's Promise Curses? They would fall into the same category of "just another specced out discord caller".
 * Besides, what sort of options do elementalists have for general pve use in HM now short of ER bonding? Bacon 19:32, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
 * These bars are run with a plethora of hero teams and should not be associated with the degenerate discordway hero team only. Whoever welled it for such a reason is a tard who still probably runs Searing Flames for pro domoges in HM. Removing the WELL. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 20:15, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Discordway
Just want to get one thing clear, and I don't even think Bacon gets it, judging from his Rating: The AP Elementalist Is Not For Discord. Discordway is a meh bar and it's due to this build and the MoP nuker that make it at all effective. The damage comes from the AP bars coupled with your Minion Bomber. Get it out of your head that this build is for a sub-par hero team and actually rate it on it's fucking merits. Good for a h/h or duo team? It's good for ANYTHING if you are too bad of an ele to run ER prot.  Minion  20:26, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Didn't mention anything about discord with my rating, did I? But it is mentioned a lot in the build page, and can probably be removed to avoid confusion. I was using Sabway with most of my vanquish testing, and ravens point HM (full human party) in my most recent use of the build. Going to clean out some of the discord references. Bacon 03:17, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Fire Magic
knockdown is cool.– alistic 17:16, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Did you read Churning Earth? Meteor Shower is shit and you dedicate two skills to using it. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 18:38, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Moving foes. What if they're standing still? derp.– BalisticSig.pngalistic 23:15, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * what if ther dead? herpderp Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 23:37, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Fire magic deals more damage and spammable Meteor Shower is worth dedicating two skills, you can also replace Glyph of Lesser Energy with Fire Attunement for even more spammable MS. In HM the extra damage + KD from MS is worth it. Sometimes a good placed MS, can save your party. So I'll say - add Fire Magic as a variant too. InStars 09:52, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
 * So many areas in the game where foes have high armor vs fire magic. -- [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] Chieftain  Alex  10:59, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, you get blind utility from the earth build + theres always a KD with churning, you have to wait 6 seconds for MS [ unless you use glyph which is meh ] -- [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] Chieftain  Alex  11:00, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Offcourse I use Glyph of Sacrifice and there are enemies that suffer extra damage from Fire, so Fire becomes extra effective in certain areas. I prefer killing foes fast than blinding them - usually the KD from MS is enough for utility. InStars 17:48, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
 * May as well leave fire options as a variant so bad people can use it. I'm sure most will go with earth. Kracatoan 18:15, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Meteor Shower cannot be spammed; it's barely viable. The 25 energy cost and the loss of GoLE is brutal; you can use Meteor Shower two or three times a fight but that's it and you won't have the energy to do much else. Fortunately with 7 heroes and decent placement of Meteor Shower and you shouldn't need to do much else. 81.158.124.122 00:07, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
 * http://www.youtube.com/user/GWXeno#p/a/u/2/XlMo_9ToGw8 Xeno is #1! Ahuehue ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 06:56, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That was xeno demonstrating how terrible MS was? he hit zero energy after 5 minutes.. even with the blood ritual hero (lol) [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] Chieftain   Alex  13:06, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I did say in that video that I didn't recommend using that build. Note though, that for the most part, the KDs from Meteor Shower were enough to push through. Also, GoLE over Fire Attunement is a better choice. - Xenomortis 20:41, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Rodgort's Invocation and Fireball are more viable on AP bars now. You gain some of the much desired AoE damage and don't lose much in spike. The downside is a slightly higher energy burden. - Xenomortis 20:43, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Votes
People dont realize that AP air is the best bar for an ele to run in general pve. If you're using ER with heroes, urbad. Life Guardian 03:50, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
 * ding ding, winner. -- Jai . -  03:58, September 14 2011 (UTC)
 * let them theorycraft-- Relyk 04:03, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I was going to take Danny up on that discussion, but I thought it would be a waste of time. Although this applies to Vorpal who is open about ERing with a full set of heroes :p Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 11:08, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Haha hell yeah! :P Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 04:03, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Me too ;) Roland 04:11, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

"the 'y u no necromancer' argument is pretty stupid"
No. &mdash;  skakid  21:51, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Any/A was trashed/welled at some point and a split was decided on so each caster profession could have its AP build template to copy-paste and prevent an ugly page (for some reason people vote them good separately but trash together?). There's not much reason to recombine them (it certainly didn't prevent any drama when we had it as one page). --  Toraen   talk  22:20, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Toraen; if you agree this is stupid then why humour it? It's a great build for an elementalist for 7H, that's all there is to it. And the necromancer version isn't better, especially when the majority harbour so much hate for melee heroes. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 22:30, 7 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I could see the reasoning in that, if this bar had more than 5 skills. Right now, it suggests a bunch of random garbage skills from every element to cater to everyone or something. We shouldn't be voting on this build in its current form. Any/A makes much more sense because every other class (except Warriors and Rangers) can use this build exactly as effectively. &mdash;  skakid  22:53, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It has already been decided that each profession's AP bar would be vetted separately (why can't you just accept that?). This allows each one's effectiveness to be judged and discussed separately and is also a lot cleaner than shoving hundreds of optionals, usages, and equipment into one universal page.  Your vote doesn't make sense seeing as how you think E/A would be good only if it were in Any/A. Smity Smitington 22:59, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * it has already been decided don't give a fuck. Onto the subject, they're all more or less equally as effective. If they weren't, they'd fall under WELL, no? This build is most effective as Necromancer or Assassin, all other professions perform equally. If they all serve the same function (assassins promise, poop damage, repeat), why make a bunch of different builds? I dunno, just don't really see the point :x &mdash;  skakid  23:03, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Well if you bothered to read the rest of my post then perhaps you would have seen the point. Each profession has multiple options specific to that profession, leading to some different usage descriptions.  They also all have different insignias available and each might benefit from different equipment.  Since you have to list multiple skills, usages, and equipment for each of the professions, it is much cleaner to do so on a separate page. Smity Smitington 23:07, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Interesting. Still disagree though. &mdash;  skakid  23:10, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Good for you? Trash voting this build simply because you would prefer a humongous Any/A page is invalid reason since it does not pertain to the effectiveness or universality of the build at hand and protests a completely separate matter. Smity Smitington 23:19, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Under PvX:WELL, everything I've said and done has been completely justified. &mdash;  skakid  23:29, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, under WELL, you wouldn't vote based on WELL reasoning, you would add or discuss a WELL tag... Smity Smitington 23:31, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Isn't that what this discussion is about? Why are you pestering me? &mdash;  skakid  23:32, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Because you voted with WELL reasoning while also being under the false assumption that your vote is protected by WELL. Smity Smitington 23:33, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * PvXwiki:Real_Vetting bullet 6 and PvX:WELL says nothing of voting, so how about you stop pestering me about meaningless bullshit. &mdash;  skakid  23:37, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Sure, let the admins decide. It is unlikely that they will do anything seeing as that would prove me right and nobody likes admitting when Smity is right. Smity Smitington 23:38, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Bullet 6, my reason for voting is explicitly mentioned in the policy. &mdash;  skakid  23:40, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Especially if I agree with Smity... ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 23:42, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Bullet 6 doesn't even apply to your vote. It applies to builds which are related while one is inferior.  You can't compare E/A and Any/A in this way since Any/A isn't a build, just a way to store the same thing.  Your argument is that Any/A would be a better way to store the build not that   this build is inferior to other specific builds. Smity Smitington 23:45, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

(reset indent) Only builds that serve the same purpose may be compared in that way. Universality vs. Effectiveness, a reasonable argument. Ele v. Necro? Less of a distinction. &mdash;  skakid  23:48, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * And why do you believe the necromancer or assassin versions of the build are best? That's ridiculous, honestly. It's the best build for a necromancer running dickcord but SS is better if you're 7H and not running any melee, so MoP and Barbs are wasted. Eles have support and more spiking power with AP, not even considering the sheer lack of other damage bars that are in any way effective in Hard Mode for them. As a 7H player, damage is always more favoured because supporting your own heroes as the player is slow. Sins are better with daggers, so that's them out instantly. Eles and Mesmers profit more from AP than anyone else. Multiple sinspams and great e-management to spam OP illusion/dom spells with 0 recharge. "o great i can spam mark of pain without recharge thats totally overpowered this is the best way to abuse ap, owait i need phys dmg..." ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 00:08, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd like to avoid rehasing the rerolling in PvE argument. So, to sum up recent debate, we still don't absolutely require that players reroll to be as effective as possible in PvE (with regard to individual 'general' builds). This is mostly because we still need to provide for people who rolled the weaker professions as their main (you could make an argument that we shouldn't, but players who optimize their PvE setups don't actually need us). There isn't a 100% clear distinction between what is acceptable and what isn't, but the line is generally drawn at "does the primary provide useful function to the build?" and "how does it compare to other options the profession has?" --  Toraen   talk  00:12, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Phen's Rant
Right. The core bar consists of skills that are either PvE, or Assassin skills. From this we can judge the build itself is Any/A. You're just filling the bar up with elementalist skills and calling it an elementalist bar (and specing excess att's into whatever). Therefore i see no reason you can't just have an Any/A and just say "here some skills to take for a proffesion". If they all do equally as well then there's no problem. If one or two do better, split those ones off, have the class skills ON the bar, and leave other classes as the Any/A.  ~ PheNaxKian talk  00:14, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That's what we did (the last part). All the caster professions that actually need an AP bar have one (Me, Rt, Mo, E, N). The ele build is the only one that doesn't mainbar ele skills (not counting GoLE). There's no point in turning it into Any/A because it would cover zero other professions. --  Toraen   talk  00:18, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Well..The rit shouldn't have an AP bar, and ele/necro are both ehh. Ele doesn't do damage anyway(just play EMO), and necro doesn't really benefit that much. All he does is spam mop and evas. Only me and mo actually benefit. Roland 00:25, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * thanks, didn't actually know which AP profs made the most sense, just used necro as reference. &mdash;  skakid  00:39, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * @Roland; if you run as an ER prot in a 7H team... Don't comment about PvE builds for 7H. Rits don't need AP to push damage, I've used the earth and air version of this build and noticed the air has alot more spiking power when chaining Orb-ymlad and evas. Earth is more clunky if you need extra support, but air is truly superior to the necro AP, which is rated Great. However, due to the unjustified hate to melee/physical AI this should be irrelevant. AP-MS is actually AP-GoS-MS to relieve the long cast time. Monk benefit? Their smiting skills are worse than eles by far; I don't see your logic. AP-SoL/Aegis is nothing like this; it's not a damage bar. Ele "does damage". Have you played this bar? Infact, read this. http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/elementalist-dps-t10497068.html ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 01:57, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * AP MoP isn't a 7 hero caller bar and shouldn't be compared with this as such. It's in great because it amplifies any semi-decent physical DPS significantly. It can be used with melee heroes but it wasn't designed or actually vetted for that situation. --  Toraen   talk  02:10, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually it was, well, 2+6 or h/h. I'm not disputing MoP's brilliance or MoP nuker, because I know how great it is, but there's a hate against getting MoP's full use out by using melee heroes in 7H play. Sure, you have FoWsc, but you don't use AP anymore with that. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 02:35, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * What do you have against ER prot? It's best ele build for pve dude...Just go that and one hybrid healer(on harder areas) and HM is easy breezy letting me run more op hero bars and unless you were on nm, air still does no damage. Just go earth so as to actually provide something to the team(snares/knds/blind-all aoe). I'd rather run a boring bar that allows me to bring more damage on good heroes than to play an aggressive bar that does negligible damage and forces me to bring 3+ hybrids(resto/prot w/e). AP MoP isnt good, agreed. And for monks, why does it have to be damage? its just AP bars.  You can go AP with either of the 2 pve skills and just bring sol and any other skills you want to spam damage and easy prots. And yes i've played the ele bar, I've played AP bar with all 3 types of damage and I've gone various elites.  And did you even finish reading the thread? It disproves your point and many people agree in saying ele damage is minor. It's the pve skils providing the damage, and anyone can bring those(you would still have them if you went earth as i suggest...)  ER prot is the best by far for overall efficiency, followed by earth. Utility>negligible damage. Sorry for the WoT, but I wanted to fully address the autism rampant here. Roland 03:31, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok... try and beat this time without AP and with ER because Jeydra was the fastest, out of all professions doing this with any build. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 03:47, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * If I was still playing GW and was invested enough in this argument to actually spend the time learning the tricks and micro's needed to sc raisu, I might have. Sadly though, I haven't played gw in about 6 months, and the time needed to learn raisu that well would not be worth the happiness proving you wrong would provide.... tl;dr I don't play anymore. Roland 04:08, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * What you should be doing is admitting you were wrong. I could get Jeydra to try it with ER so you can see the same player get 10 or 11 minutes instead; same tactics but it would be shit slow. Here's the thing; humans can run more OP shit than heroes. You have better control over the mob if you aggro first, a monk or support character luring is bad. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 04:18, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Comparing ER to AP isn't actually useful since they're different roles (backline vs. offensive midline). I don't see any reason ER should continue to be brought up. It's an option but one that's completely unnecessary in many areas. --  Toraen   talk  08:03, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Relyk's Rant
Comparing across professions was discussed to death, so giving a fuck is a pretty good idea in this case, what with any/A being deleted previously. Ignore using N/A or Assassin's Promise on another build, pretend they don't exist. You don't care what other professions are using in PvE because you're an Elementalist. You know elemental damage is terrible in HM and eles generally suck there. AP chain is generally the only effective bar available for Elementalist in HM. Optional slots are just that, optional. They aren't required for the build to function, just serve as additional damage and utility. The main optionals are Chain Lightning+Lightning Orb because of armor penetration. The fire and earth variants are minor but see use. You can't argue no one spams Meteor Shower as that build is old as shit. The earth variant is viable because of Churning Earth as a snare for nukes, you can discuss moving any of these to variants if you disagree. I disagree with you on sin or necro being better primaries because of gole and large energy storage, but comparing to those professions is stupid in the first place. You use a build with a profession, not a profession with a build. Your vote says nothing of the effectiveness of the build to justify a trash vote, just some bitching about optionals and other professions to push your own agenda.-- Relyk 00:20, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * ^ This. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 00:40, 8 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Meteor Shower's pretty bad outside of high-end areas now that PvE is lolfaceroll damage. This build's got spamming to do, it's kinda silly to spend ~4 seconds casting meteor shower when it doesn't deal nearly as much damage as your main skills. Chain Lightning and Lightning Orb are weak sills =/. Churning Earth is kinda cool, but doesn't really justify the page. I'm not arguing for getting rid of this build, just merging it as it kinda goes against WELL in its current state. &mdash;  skakid  00:46, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * There's nothing to validly merge it with or actually WELL this with. Any/A is split up and there's no point to recombining them into a page with an optionals wall. If any of the individual builds get trashed, there's no point to putting them on a combined page either since they're apparently not worth running. --  Toraen   talk  00:54, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Use with glyph of sac of course. I run 3 fire magic and run for kds since the damage is shitty. Chain lightning+l-orb are by far the strongest options available and the best way to push kills (Everyone stares admiringly at Jeydra on guildguru for this). The optionals don't make or break the build, but that doesn't mean we can't have an AP ele page. 4 skills do make a build when it comes to AP because lolpve.-- Relyk 04:38, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * If the Air is good enough to justify it's own page, then sure. &mdash;  skakid  05:20, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm too lazy to figure out where to post this, but the bar is basically 6 skills mainbarred: Air/Earth attunement is probably going to be taken, and then the only option is between 2 earth skills or 2 air skills. That's actually better than most builds here. Also, this has very different usage than the mesmer and necro AP's, especially the earth variant. -- Jai . -  06:47, November 8 2011 (UTC)
 * it doesn't have a different usage. you spam your skills then you spam damage/support skills then you do it again &mdash;  skakid  07:43, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * ^Different usage is kind of non-existent in general PvE. Different purpose is a more relevant soundbite to throw around. --  Toraen   talk  07:54, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

So I've decided
Danny and Ska's votes are removed. I think this discussion has been beaten beyond dead and isn't going to come up with anything new to consider. --  Toraen   talk  04:26, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

AoE Scatter
is prevented if you're using Churning Earth. You could have perma-churning with AP, which is perma 2-3 sec KD on any foe who tries to move. Also, since everything scatters, everything gets KD in HM, which can result in mass shutdown. Earthbind could be interesting to take with an AP Earth Elementalist. Random Weird Guy 14:50, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
 * If by interesting, you mean it would die in one usage of Churning earth :D You'd need ST as the Elite on the rit and no other spirits tbf.. [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] Chieftain   Alex  14:52, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Earthbind isn't needed, I was just suggesting it to add spice. Random Weird Guy 14:54, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I just realised Churning had a buff as well, 3 -> 2 second cast time. Random Weird Guy 15:02, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Vote Wipe
With the ele update, elemental damage becomes more effective in general and fire and earth bars become more viable. Most votes don't need to be modified in light of this but a vote wipe would provide a fresh start for the build.-- Relyk 00:54, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

AP vs Standard Elementalist Nukers
If AP ele is in Good, in theory, no other player elementalist bar can surpass it's rating as every other damage build IS inferior. Chieftain <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  09:20, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
 * AP is spiking, this is nuking. Same reason why you would use Searing Flames.-- Relyk 09:40, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Because using Meteor Shower or Churning Earth and Eruption every few seconds doesn't class as nuking at all. Random Weird Guy 10:26, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Heroes can't run the AP build. Using Meteor Shower every few seconds also builds up Exhaustion which sucks. Valid point about Earth AP for players though. We could remove the player tag from this if we're agreed on that subject. -- Toraen   confer  10:51, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, didn't realise this was a hero discussion. Yeah, SF is better on a hero than AP. Random Weird Guy 10:53, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Zzz, none of this build causes scatter while MS and Earth nukes do. DoTAoE skills will almost always have higher DPS if you're not worrying about recharge, but scatter makes them far less useful than direct damage. Also, we all know that AP is never 100% reliable, so unless you're getting a big advantage over running it you should avoid the skill. Furthermore, almost all of the AP build is single-target damage, while this is all AoE, and nearby AoE at that (all while maintaining respectable single-target DPS). In my opinion, the one needing scrutiny is the AP build, because now we actually have viable nuking builds for players that don't require the use of instant recharge in order to do damage. -- Jai' s Computer -  13:30, January 13 2012 (UTC)
 * Nobody using Meteor Shower appropriately will have exhaustion issues. I thought this was a human discussion, of course AP's not for heroes. Jai, I'm not sure what you're trying to do but you're being more illogical than you used to appear:
 * "DoTAoE skills will almost always have higher DPS if you're not worrying about recharge" thanks for supporting AP
 * from your vote: "This doesn't gain as much of a buff because most of its damage is armor-ignoring" even if damage is mostly dagger attacks+ymlad+fh, buff =/= better automatically
 * from your vote: "the only AoE in the optionals causes scatter" just plain wrong...none of the Air optionals do, and Churning Earth (nearby range) is about as anti-scatter as it gets
 * "AP is never 100% reliable...you should avoid the skill" let's avoid all skills and auto-attack everything (EA can get stripped, everything has problems, practice and deal with it)
 * "almost all of the AP build is single-target damage" really depends how you play the bar

In short, you're not really helping EA's side of the debate. Fianchetto 18:47, 13 January 2012 (UTC) - Churning Earth knocks down anything that tried to move in HM and has nearby range. - Did you think AP was just a hex to trigger the KD from EVAS? - See above. - Nothing is 100% reliable. If you're smart, you can use AP in most situations. - Well, 2 instant recharge nukes that both have a DPS of 42 at 16 Earth Magic. Also you have the perma-blind and snare, both with Nearby range. Then you have the EVAS every few seconds for more damage and meat-shielding. - You're looking at 2 nukes each with a DPS of 42 in nearby range.
 * You said yourself yhe actual damage from the AP bar comes from "YMLaD!" and "FH!" + EVAS, which is single target. He said that DoTAoE gave more damage, but also scatter makes it less useful, so you're not actually getting the full damage from it, and in fact, hindering the rest of your AoE because the mobs are kititng out of it because you used the DoT skills.
 * You should really be less selective with your reading. PewPew   QQ   19:15, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Lets use AP with Churning, Eruption and Earth Attunement as the example:
 * "Zzz, none of this build causes scatter while MS and Earth nukes do"
 * "DoTAoE skills will almost always have higher DPS if you're not worrying about recharge"
 * "but scatter makes them far less useful than direct damage"
 * "we all know that AP is never 100% reliable"
 * "so unless you're getting a big advantage over running it you should avoid the skill"
 * "Furthermore, almost all of the AP build is single-target damage, while this is all AoE, and nearby AoE at that"
 * I don't really see how this build can be rated as Great while AP is rated Good. AP has a ridiculous number of advantages over this if you use the build wisely (i.e. Not using AP on a Ranger boss with full health that is surrounded by PnH monks, then calling a target in the opposite direction). Random Weird Guy 20:08, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't care how well you use AP. There will always be (unavoidable) situations where AP is either removed or you simply can't kill the foe before AP runs out. Yes, if you're good then that will happen infrequently, but you're royally fucked if AP goes into recharge, even moreso than most other AP builds because your main damage is on 30s recharges. And you're wrong. The update nerfed AP++EVAS+YMLaD+FH because of the higher health. Of course, it's made up because the ele skills are armor-respecting, but the point was that you're not getting nearly the magnitude of the buff that Searing Flames and fire damage in general got. If you want me to further pick apart your argument, the AP build takes 5.5 seconds from the end of AP to finish casting Churning Earth, at which point Searing Flames or EA could easily have already put out 200+ nearby AoE damage, making it very likely that the mob is already dead. In fact, I could write up a whole list of problems with AP if you really would like me to. Simply put, AP has large and definite disadvantage to running other builds, and unless you're gaining a major advantage by running it (or there's simply no other good option), it's probably a better idea to run another build. Also, Churning Earth still causes scatter and stuff will almost always get out of it after the first KD, and if nothing else it'll push mobs out of adjacent range of each other, making other nukes much less effective. -- Jai' s Computer -  05:35, January 14 2012 (UTC)
 * Jai arguing with Jaisocka. Brilliant. You should probably discuss this on the AP Elementalist talk page, but... Jaisocka is winning since your argument is full of presumpions and guesswork tbh. For a human, AP is still the best. You don't just get +dmg with the PvE skills. You have two near-instant KDs, an extra spammable body which mitigates damage as a decoy. On top of that you have the damage, singletarget is strong on Air and Earth was buffed even more because Churning was docked 1s cast time. Oh, and how well you can use a skill has nothing to do with the rating on effectiveness. Or I will trash PR again, and maybe UWSC. Your first sentence was truly stupid. [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  06:40, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
 * ALL ABOUT DAMAGE BABY. AOE BIG YELLOW NUMBERS AWH YEAH &mdash; <font color="#CC0099">Skakid  Rally- kupo! [[Image:S9M.png]] 06:55, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
 * HEYHEYGUYS i have good idea--smack GoEP on AP bar. Does everything EA does + recharge. btw i think i found why AP isn't working for you Jai: "AP build takes 5.5 seconds from the end of AP to finish casting Churning Earth" Fianchetto 07:20, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
 * You're using 1 AoE skill every 8 seconds. Sure, you're killing other things, but then other people are running AoE teams and slaughtering entire groups. Churning Earth is good, yes. But they're both good builds, why are you so butthurt? This doesn't touch EA in terms of AoE damage, and it kills single enemies faster. EA isn't a one-trick pony either, you have utility slots, you have open attribute points, and you've got energy management for skills from other elements (say, Churning Earth). Quit crying about it. &mdash; <font color="#CC0099">Skakid  Rally- kupo! [[Image:S9M.png]] 01:43, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Skills with longer recharges are usually more powerful, and being able to spam them every 5 seconds is probably the best thing for pve. <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  13:26, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

The Elementalist update changed nothing fundamental for Elementalist players. The reason AP dominated before this update was not because HM armour reduced damage hugely (although it certainly didn't help and was one of the primary reasons the Air version had the best damage), but was because Elementalist skills just plain sucked. High cast times, high recharges, high energy costs and pitiful effects; DoT skills in particular are unusable most of the time even before the fact they're not even good damage comes into consideration; they've been used in NM because the AI doesn't move, but this is not the case in HM. Now AP nullifies some of these costs; recharge in particular is eliminated and energy is partially alleviated. The norn shouts and EVAS are very time efficient and have powerful spike effects, meaning they play exceptionally well with AP. Hence, this build obliterates anything else the Ele could run. What's more, many other forms of direct damage coming from heroes or other players play very well with this skill setup; by contrast, Searing Flames plays well with itself and not much else (Fevered Dreams perhaps, at a push) and is very energy intensive. This is also true for the Necro and Mesmer, but they have other roles to fill on top of raw damage, which is where their AP bars come in. This update gave average PUG Ele players some cute elites to play around with and made them more powerful; it changed nothing at the top since non-elites were hardly touched and nothing has been given that could displace AP. - Xenomortis 16:45, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * You seem to be neglecting the fact that AP, and in particular AP Air, was used because fire, where most of the AoE resides, literally could not do decent damage. Now, fire does plenty strong damage, meaning ele's can actually viably contribute AoE damage again. Stuff like Fireball, Rodgort's, Liquid Flame, Meteor, Searing Flames, and so on, all got a huge buff in HM just because of the armor reduction. EA's buff just served to make the aforementioned buffs even stronger. It also seems very strange to me that you're basically saying that the earth skills suck (which is the only viable option in my eyes) and then saying AP obliterates any other ele options because it has good single-target damage from YMLaD/FH/EVAS (which is something every single other profession in GW can do as well or better). And by "many other forms of derect damage coming from heroes or other players play very well with this skill setup," I guess you must mean Discord, because OP AoE skills from mesmers, rits, etc., don't play well with AP any better than they do SF (if not worse because, as I said before, single-target damage). And if you haven't noticed, I'm basically telling you that non-AoE damage in PvE is mostly pointless in the current meta. -- Jai' s Computer -  17:01, January 15 2012 (UTC)
 * Wrong Jai, AP Ele is superior to all ele builds. There is no other build you could plausibly use in high end PvE. Take your Searing Flames and your nuking and your nearby range to a build that gives a shit!-- Relyk 17:11, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * He is neglecting nothing. What you are neglecting to see it that pure damage won't win in high end areas. A player using AP has alot more control over losing AP to hex removal. You can either cast it early if you have mesmer heroes to coverhex, or you can cast late and insta-FH. The build is all about abusing long recharge skills for utility purposes. 2x KDs, deep Wound, Cracked Armour and semi-AoE damage/two powerful nukes, anti-kite, blind spam. All on a 5s~ recharge, or however fast you can kill. It's fine using either build with AoE heroes, infact it is suggested. Head into Slaver's. Try clearing Forge with your fire builds and come back with screenshots. Hell, you can run AP Fireball/Rodgort's spam better than with EA. In short, the strength and merits of the AP air bar haven't been nerfed since this update and the Earth bar just got a whole lot better. Fire nuking is something that just makes PUG eles that little bit more successful but still essentially is terrible. [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain  <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  18:23, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * You're bad, dude. &mdash; <font color="#CC0099">Skakid  Rally- kupo! [[Image:S9M.png]] 18:27, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

AP bars' sequence
It seems some people have yet to learn when to cast AP, and understandably feel more comfortable with AP as the leading skill in the bar. However, the correct usage/sequence is found on many other AP bars stored here (MoP, Bomber, and Me/A). Before reordering bars that want fixing and getting reverted by random, probably banned people, I'd like to point out that this is for both consistency on the wiki and less fail when you play. Many comments/votes rage about AP not working for them, and no kidding, it's easy to see why. Fianchetto 19:54, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Kaisha the fishwife reverted. balance restored to the world. [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain  <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  19:59, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
 * If you wish, I can ping the builds ig. Agf and stop attacking. I've seen you troll others. Enough with the troll-baiting. Ariyen 07:46, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Combo in usage is off. Best sequence is to time the quarterknock between ymlad and evas :p 98.207.35.105 09:22, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * This is, imo, my favorite build.

[build prof=E/A Deadly=12 Energy=12+3+1][Assassin's Promise][Pain Inverter][Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support]["You Move Like a Dwarf!"][Signet of Deadly Corruption][Signet of Shadows][Glyph of Lesser Energy][Aura of Restoration][/build]
 * 72.148.31.114 10:07, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Why is there a revert war over the skill order, of all things? -- Toraen   confer  14:57, 15 January 2012 (UTC) PvX player. Ariyen 04:21, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Thought you'd seen it all, eh? &mdash; <font color="#CC0099">Skakid  Rally- kupo! [[Image:S9M.png]] 18:29, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * It's pretty retarded, so I am going to make this clear. I've protted the page for 3 days. When the protection ends if someone changes the skill order of the bar they need to have gone through extensive discussion with the full weight of consensus behind them, or they are going to feel wrath. If there is something on the page that urgently needs to be changed other than this, bug an admin. A new misery  23:11, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I Just think some need to try it the way posted above, imo, before claiming the 'other way' is cleaner or better. Provide proof thy self, of which way is better, before changing it in the first place of which Alex and the rest of the members have done. Many ig - use it the other way - seen in missions, vanquishes, etc. from others, not myself. Three used build above in that order and wiped the Dragon in very short amount of time w/out having to fight too much of the other enemy, just an example of how the above build works. Where as the other doesn't refresh as fast and you are unable to use some of the other skills, because of their skill timers. Try, then show which way is better and why. I think should have happened from beginning, to stop causing such reverts on things. No one showed why the ne way was "better", hence I reverted back to the way that it's always been. I'm amused and have tried that way - I'm just sayin the way ^.^ above works better, because when an enemy dies by the build, and quickly. It resets quickly and you can have out at least 2 to 3 assassin supports. With the current way? only one Sin support at a time. So, why is the new way better? less support due to the time length of the other skills? or that it doesn't seem to "refresh"? Ariyen 02:22, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
 * It looks nicer with the elite at the start and chain afterwards, but you don't use it in that order if you're not stupid. You don't have to use a build 1->8 in order. Shit, am I explaining gil worz to pvx? It's GoLE->Orb+YMLaD->AP->EVAS->FH. [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain  <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  02:29, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Looks and works better. I've been using it for months and you can cast too soon or too late, but average and it works terrific. It kills off many. I've helped and used this in hm on Eternal a few weeks back. We were wiping things out quicker than the other side and was able to help them. As said above, had at least 2 elementals, etc. going. but not in your order either, just in the order I pasted. You can use the first 5 with any 3 after them. I'm mostly PvE and not pvx, so don't need to explain to me, a build that I've used for well over a year and know how to work it. Only JQ for pvp, but PvE is my style and where I play with heroes, pugs, friends, guilds, alliances, etc. Used it in The Deep in HM as well as a couple of other Elite end areas, just to name a few places where it's worked. Only times it ever fails, is when there's a sucky build/team some where or it's gets the skills pressed wrong. Ariyen 02:41, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Are you arguing about the skill order revert war or that specific bar earlier in this section? We're trying to discuss the skill order issue, but it seems like you're advertising a bar. -- Toraen   confer  02:51, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
 * What the fuck are you actually talking about? Your tangent is so far off the beaten track, I can't make any sense of it. Skill order: It_doesn't_matter. Why? Because everyone personalised their skill order. Even if they don't; the order is still different when you cast. [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain  <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  03:01, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, if you actually read what I wrote, you'd understand. Tl:dr; To only have to run the first few skills on a bar is better than using the whole bar and use first few skills - enemy dies, it refreshes. Boom, you have a whole bar to use again. Hence, that's what AP does. Learning or knowing what a skill "actually" does is better than "assuming" or knowing where it'd fit/be best placed at. Sure some run it differently, but finding the best "usefulness", etc. helps as well as knowing when and how to use the build.  Surely, I don't have to explain this to a "gil worz"
 * Ariyen, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. &mdash; <font color="#CC0099">Skakid  Rally- kupo! [[Image:S9M.png]] 04:33, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
 * /picks up Ariyen; drops her back into the kitchen. You're doing it again. Read what Toraen said and stop trolling. [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain  <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  04:35, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Be nice. Ariyen, I know you have good intentions but your comments make no sense whatsoever in the context of this discussion.-- Relyk 04:49, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Hey guys/gals. Bar is already ordered decently. It's your own business how you like it in game. And that bar with the signets is bad. That is all. Fianchetto 03:28, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I thought everyone used YMLaD+EVAS to knocklock unless the situation called for otherwise. I have been playing this game all wrong.-- Relyk 03:47, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
 * New bar less aesthetically pleasing as well as a really bad order. Relyk doing it right. 98.207.35.105 07:22, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
 * We should cater to clueless people. If you already know how to use the build, you won't come here. This makes it clearer that you're supposed to cast AP on low armor targets. And trust me, putting the skill first means most people will use it first. &mdash; <font color="#CC0099">Skakid  Rally- kupo! [[Image:S9M.png]] 14:16, 18 January 2012 (UTC)
 * PvX lists builds and tells people how they work. We shouldn't be expected to spoon-feed every player in Guild Wars by listing every possible circumstance and the possible courses of action you could take (including the various skill orders) when you find yourself in each situation. If you don't know how to use the build from the general usage section, then you don't deserve to be able to utilise the build to its full potential. Random Weird Guy 13:15, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

troll vote
"Wasting your elite on recharges is stupid, eles can pump massive damage with the recent buff to elemental attunement and ebsow/AoS reduce recharges anyways. As I said on the AP mesmer page, this borders on a guide. Someone needs to just make an AP spammer guide with all the options for each profession because this stuff is shit compared to any of our already vetted builds-Rask" -The conversation has been had and you need to stop and think, because for this one you can't even argue recharge times. The useful earth nukes are both 30s recharge. That is a ludicrous wait. Churning Earth got a buff and Chain Lightning got a small nerf but nothing major (Jeydra still runs AP Air at least, which is testament to how Great it is) Soi Sticker 11:03, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Then don't use earth nukes? If you really want DoT, take the fire nukes (Savannah Heat) with AoS for recharge and you'll be doing a lot more damage. Still, DoT nukes are very niche and simple direct damage is preferable in the majority of situations. -- Jai .  -  12:22, April 2 2012 (UTC)
 * What the .. large range utility earth nukes make sense with AP. <font face="Calibri" color=black>Chieftain Alex  13:34, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Just wrote a 7 paragraph tl;dr about your statement but I'll just go with "lolguru".  Rask ✂  ✂  ✂  ✂  13:55, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Write that tl;dr and I will read it. Also @Jai; The fact you agree DoT AND single-target damage being preferable is exactly what the page shows... I don't get your point. Fire sucks. Forget Meteor Shower, and AoS is pretty meh too. ~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs 17:25, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I like the part where you talk about Meteor Shower where it hasn't been mentioned at all in this conversation. I also appreciate your complete misinterpretation of direct damage (i.e. AoE Direct damage like that from EA and SF) to somehow mean "DoT and single-target damage." Bravo, you've definitely refuted my argument. -- Jai .  -  03:09, April 3 2012 (UTC)
 * Jai... You do realise those Earth spells deal AoE direct damage and not degen? Eugh... You're trying to be clever again, aren't you. I mentioned Meteor Shower because saying Searing Heat/Savannah Heat>another DoT spell that is balanced to be equal is just plain dumb. Savannah Heat is terrible because nothing should last so long as to need the final wave of massive damage. If the massive damage was from the first pulse, it would be a different story. Currently, this is still the best ele build. I'm only using Jeydra as an example to show what the build can accomplish, where many have failed. He has said many times in the past that it's about tactics not builds anyway, but idgaf. 86.183.254.164 03:57, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * @Jai, some "whoru" from guru beat the whole guild wars with it! It must be a great build! It couldn't be possible that his build sucked and his heroes covered his shitty damage, that's just crazy talk.
 * @Soi, I'm not even going to TRY to debate this with you, it'll me being a dick because you're a silly goose.  Rask ✂  ✂  ✂  ✂  03:16, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * DoT doesn't mean degen. Direct damage (I'm sure there's a better actual term, but it's ~midnight here) just means "all at once", like Rodgort's or Chain Lightning, which Jai did define by example for you. -- Toraen   confer  04:57, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Not really. Direct damage is the polar opposite of degen and hexes. It's comparable to healing prayers vs prots and hex/condition removal. With an ebon ward, the two earth spells deal vast amounts of damage, not just over time but *directly*. Then there's the problem that the fire skills only deal damage, whereas Churning Earth snares foes from kiting all the AoE and Eruption blinding foes over a large range while also dealing equal damage to the other skills. Assassin's promise is reliable and returns energy, which AoS does not. Things should be dead fast enough that you do not need Savannah Heat, and you're (Jai, Rask) still forgetting this is not a hero build. A human running SF or EA is gimping himself by not abusing PvE skills to maximise single-target damage output while heroes focus on AoE, to which they excel much easier, if the player can target or tank properly. Rodgort's and Chain Lightning are both in the build anyway, as part of the options. ~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs  07:17, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * There isn't much point in arguing that someone's definition is incorrect when they defined it pretty clearly. That is called arguing semantics and is the equivalent of arguing that a particular shade of blue-green is actually turquoise. Your definition of "direct damage" is also not what is commonly accepted, even if it is literal. A new misery  07:40, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * The point is he could have used this very build as an example. ~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs 07:47, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * No, because your definition is completely wrong considering whenever anybody talks about direct damage, they mean damage like Rodgort's or Searing Flames or ESurge. Damage over time is never direct damage, period, and me saying "DoT nukes are very niche and simple direct damage is preferable" tells you right there that DoT is NOT being considered direct damage. You can argue about it all you'd like, but it's clear what I meant (and what is pretty much always meant when referring to direct damage), and two different admins have stepped in to tell you the same thing. You need to read better, comprehend better, and/or just do us all a favor and announce your aspirations to succeed me as PvX's resident faggot. -- Jai .  -  13:03, April 3 2012 (UTC)
 * I hereby nominate soi to succeed jai as my faggot. Let the festivities begin! They 13:09, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Why is this still going on?
AP, for one it is the ultimate skill to quickly use recharged spells. For others, it isn't because they feel one chain of spells wipes a group anyway and therefore recharge is not part of the discussion. Stop hating and loving it. AP was a key spell during the Discord days, now it is a good elite for some and unnecessary to others. Just stop it... --  Sh @ dow / /  Haze  13:47, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

In other words, the more attention that is brought to this page, the bigger the likelihood that this build's going to get trashed. If you want the build to stay on the wiki (there's really no hope of it being put in great again), then it'd be better to simply drop it. -- Jai .  -  14:13, April 3 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't care! Just stop annoying the RC with unnecessary comments... --  Sh @ dow / /  Haze  14:27, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Shadow, your rating makes no sense with what you just said. It's not even vote balancing, it's just blatant diplomatic bandwagoning. Think for yourself plz. ~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs 19:10, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * No, I have had it with this. AP is outdated for almost every char. --  Sh @ dow / /  Haze  19:17, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * The sad part is you really think Discord was integral to it's success... Really, AoE heroes have since improved AP builds as a team build. ~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs 19:52, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * AP became succesful thanks to Discord --  Sh @ dow / /  Haze  19:59, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * and Discordway is still around, both here at pvx and ingame. but even ignoring Discordway, AP is still strong for (midline) ele &#9823;Fianchetto [[Image:PvSense.gif|19px|link=User_talk:Fianchetto]] 22:18, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * ^ Discordway is used to the same degree of success, but it was always argued that it was AP that made it any good. The abuse of the PvE skills was always the main damage output and damage mitigation. ~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs 00:34, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I always used to advocate AP builds outside of Discord (because I've always hated Discord) and have run AP on multiple chars in the past. However, with the latest ele update, AP is simply not worth it on eles, and buffs to mesmers have made it obsolete for that profession as well. Considering it was only ever really good for ele, mesmer, monk (only because of few other decent options), and necro, that doesn't leave much left for AP. -- Jai .  -  02:57, April 4 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, Monk was never good with AP. That was a true niche gimmick with no benefits (A benefit for a monk is good energy, better team protection or healing- It did none of those). Mesmer is done and dusted now and I agreed with it's archival. This build, however, for this profession, has not been hurt in any way from the ele buffs. The elite skills weren't all that were buffed; Churning Earth got it's helping which made the Earth AP bar a lot less clunky and workable. The reason AP is so good (and don't try comparing it to AoS) is only now partly because of PvE skills. Churning Earth is amazing crowd control in a team of AoE damage heroes (dom/illu hybrid mesmers), and Eruption frees a secondary or skill slot on Enfeebling Blood. I don't think I should have to explain why the PvE skills are so worthwhile in spamming as an elementalist when you could be casting AoE spells. Your heroes do it. Simply put, PvE shouts are, obviously, can cause the highest possible compressed damage spike in the game. Ymlad->evas->Fh after getting off a Churning is much more useful than you having AoE damage and your heroes each taking a single-targeting spell for those occasions a Wild Straggler Appears. And even if the build *is* outdated, it should be archived. However, it is still in use and it is still meta among many elementalists. PvX cannot just ignore the playerbase. ~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs 04:44, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I ignore you don't I? THEY 05:16, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Nope. You even quote me sometimes, bcus I'm so knowledge. ~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs 06:14, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Monks, as I said, are driven to AP for lack of better options more than anything. And if you're going AP on a monk, you might as well just bring some Smite crap and not bother with heals and prots at all, but that's a whole other topic. The problem with your single-target argument is that EA and SF still deal rather ridiculous single-target damage. Obviously it'll be less than EVAS+YMLaS+FH, but it's enough to take away about a sixth of their health in a single cast, and single-target damage past that point is mostly unneeded as heroes provide plenty of random damage here and there and spirits will clean up the rest. And if you do need a snare, just take either Deep Freeze or Tryptophan Signet. I have scatter problems maybe 5% of the time, and at those times the mobs don't scatter until they're below 20% health, which means even a second or so of extra time stuck in the ball (which you'd get by pretty much any snare) would have killed them. -- Jai .  -  05:17, April 4 2012 (UTC)
 * You can actually take Rodgort's on the AP Fire bar, not sure why it's not on there already. Chain Lightning deals a nice amount of partial-AoE damage, too. While you admit AP has the upper hand on single-target damage, you're playing down the AoE skills like these and Eruption/Churning. When you can only take three PvE skills, one of those is never Trypt. Heroes can take snares, and their bars are better off with a nice number of energy management skills, rupts and AoE skills (like the WE/Esurge bars posted the other day) are an example of when player-dependent single-target becomes important. Not to mention Ymlad's damage mitigation effect; from casters with KD and melee with cripple+KD. Finish Him has CA (ok, not really needed because you needed it sooner for your ele damage) but the Deep Wound is great; Accumulated Pain doesn't compare. I'm not saying one is better than the other, just that they both have their place still. ~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs 06:14, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
 * And that's fine, that's you're opinion. The problem is, others have their opinions as well with just as solid of convictions as you. Trying to get them to change their vote is going to do essentially nothing, except in the meantime, you're drawing the attention of the entire wiki onto the build. When people see the build, they rate it. The problem here is that it takes 4+ positive votes to counterbalance a negative vote, and the number of people around PvX that support AP is not 5:1. And that's why the rating has actually gone down since you started arguing for it. The only thing you've done is bring it closer to trash. There are a ton of flaws with the rating system, the main one being that the judges are real people with particularly large egos, but changing it at this point would be highly impractical. In other words, unless you are actively trying to create drama, your best bet to keep this build around is to shut up, curse Shadow and Rask and them in your sleep, and just stay away from the build. -- Jai .  -  11:46, April 4 2012 (UTC)
 * So jai is effectively saying people thinking a build is good shouldn't argue in favour of it against other users? Thats why we have talk pages >.> <font face="Calibri" color=black>Chieftain Alex  12:08, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm saying that if you're going to try and change people's votes (and thus change their minds), the "remove your vote or else" mentality will not work and in fact will almost always make you lose more than you sought to gain. Either ask politely for somebody to improve (not remove) their vote, or just fucking deal with it so long as the build has a rating over 3.75. Every time someone goes after a vote with valid (subjective or not) reasoning, it ends up with a shitstorm that, in more cases than not, ends up with the build in trash. -- Jai .  -  12:59, April 4 2012 (UTC)
 * Jai; you make it sound like discussions on PvX require diplomacy and circlejerk rather than explaining why a build is good to those who truly don't get it. The fact is, a lot of people who do come here because I'm giving the page "attention" are going to either vote up because they're smart and have actually played it, or they're going to trashvote and be wrong. Anyway, brbAN. ~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs 00:15, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

lolpvx
In Danny's stead. 04:01, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Looking at the votes
Ok so we have: Yeah this build isn't innovative, but its effective. <font face="Calibri" color=black>Chieftain Alex 12:07, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
 * 12 votes agreeing that this build is the dog's bollocks for pve elementalists.
 * This leaves 4 votes trashing it:
 * Shadow blatantly trashvoting just to vote balance with bad reasoning. I get the distinct feeling hes not tested it with earth nukes.
 * Rask trashvoting for the sake of an AP guide page - which would only contain ritualist and necromancer going by his current trash voting spree - this is stupid. (monk, paragon, warrior, assassin, dervish & ranger are complete junk at AP builds - mesmer has been trashed - ele will be trashed) (wierdly rask sings the praise of the AP rit even though you should be running SoS in pve as a rit?..)
 * Moonite - rask's bandwagon trashvote friend - basically arguing for AP guide again - stupid for the same reasons as above.
 * Jai - "No mob should last more than a handful of seconds" - been domain of anguish with this?
 * Why the fuck would you use this in DoA? My reasoning is that this build is retarded given the ele update, this is why I don't compromise with you people. Everytime I attempt to meet you halfway you pull some bullshit excuse out of your ass and try to turn it back on me. tl;dr fuck your logic my vote stays. [[Image:They.jpg|36px|link=User:They]] 12:51, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Herp derp mine isn't a trashvote. What's your point Alex? -- Jai .  -  12:53, April 4 2012 (UTC)
 * It is no real balance. Im just sick of it and my reasoning is true. I tested it, using every combo (fire, air, earth, water). I just don't care about AP anymore and I will continue with a proper elite and AoS --  Sh @ dow / /  Haze  13:10, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Retardation, Shadow. You're "sick" of what, exactly? The way you say that just makes us think it's this situation and discussion you're sick of. What happened to the days of PvX where everyone would look at a build and rate it on it's merits? It's a diplomatic fuckfest... Useless. ~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs 18:45, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
 * AP=skill, AoS=luck. ele update has not killed this. EA is still a wasted elite. vote on the build, not a guide &#9823;Fianchetto [[Image:Mending.jpg|19px|link=User_talk:Fianchetto]] 13:22, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
 * If that's how you define skill I would hate to see you in guild wars 2. Also, that sig is annoying.[[Image:They.jpg|36px|link=User:They]] 13:37, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Irascible Rask is always annoyed. and what's up with derailing every thread. or do we really need to explain to you how AP is based more on skill whereas AoS relies on a 10% chance? granted, EBSoW helps (15r on nukes/EVAS is still slow), but there's a point where using up 2 pve slots is a waste when the elite slot does the job loads better. isn't bar compression (of GoEP+old EA) why dual attuning became popular now &#9823;Fianchetto [[Image:Mending.jpg|19px|link=User_talk:Fianchetto]] 14:16, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
 * That 10% power while fighting 6 enemies is good enough for me 95% of the time. I can also just be lucky --  Sh @ dow / /  Haze  16:16, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't like rolling dice when I play, but each his own.-- Relyk 19:53, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

By the way; second part of the elementalist update will be with us shortly, which will be buffing skills. It's more than likely going to dampen the argument that the elites are more worthwhile than spamming regular skills. I suggest we wait for that release before making anymore judgement on this. ~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs 19:58, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
 * ^ &#9823;Fianchetto [[Image:Mending.jpg|19px|link=User_talk:Fianchetto]] 00:05, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Until then, feel free to discuss and judge the build as it currently stands.-- Relyk 20:24, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Psh, I just don't think this build deserves any praise at all. I took one look at this build and knew there wasn't any thought behind it. It's your basic ap build. Something anyone can make. One moment whilst I trash all the ap builds because I don't think that every single profession needs a separate page for the very same build. And the praise this builds gets? Doesn't deserve it. It makes more sense just to make a universal ap guide covering all the variants with the different professions. Not the cluttered form it is in now. Moonite 23:46, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Read discussion on previous sections. Feel free to make a guide for using Assassin's Promise, but individual builds using Assassin's Promise aren't getting merged.-- Relyk 01:40, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm a newb here, but why is the community allowing a great build (taking into account most ratings) being downgraded to "good" not because of its quality, but because of a few people's personal ideals that one one cares about? DiogoALS 14:14, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Due to the rating system, even a small minority of unconvinced users can tilt the rating into good very easily. Without putting rask's clappers in irons I doubt we're going to be seeing a great rating any time soon, OTOH its not going anywhere lower due to the countervotes. <font face="Calibri" color=black>Chieftain Alex  14:39, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
 * the great pvx voterhood demands a Poisson distr. instead of a mean. only then will the proletariat be satisfied. arise comrades! &#9823;Fianchetto [[Image:Mending.jpg|19px|link=User_talk:Fianchetto]] 15:26, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
 * The most marvelous p v of x requires outlier votes to be disregarded to enable full circle pulling activities on vote pages. <font face="Calibri" color=black>Chieftain Alex  15:42, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Genuinely surprised some of the 0-0 votes aren't wiped. Consider if I had 0-0'd discordway when it was prominent; it would have been swiftly removed no matter what the reason because, ladies and gents, it DID work, it WAS effective at what it was designed to do. This is the same thing. They are simply vote balancing. ~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs 17:44, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
 * It's exactly the 0-0 votes I'm talking about. There's no justification whatsoever for this build to receive a 0, and whoever rated that low didn't even bother to justify, they simply started shouting about their ideals or whatever. That kind of thing should be left to this discussion page (AND it's already being discussed). IMO, those 0 rates should be removed. DiogoALS 18:42, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

(because Shadow is bad and should feel bad)

I do not wish to enter a discussion on AN. Soi, my vote is based on how I experienced AP and how I experienced many other elementalists after the major update. And I judged AP, and I have told I have judged AP, which is the main idea behind the whole build. There is no vote balancing at all. Telling the Admins 0-0s are not tolerated is the same as saying 5-5s are not tolerated on the build. Some, well, a lot actually, give little to no reasoning at all. Saying a build is great is not good enough, give reasons why. Even my own votes are sometimes considered not viable since they contain no real reasons other than saying it's great or it sucks big time. I want you to consider to stop annoying all of PvX, especially the admins that deal with all votes on a regular basis (and mine has not been removed even with pointing at it numerous times, so somehow they see it as viable, and I agree). Consider it, stop this annoying piece, which I considered annoying already on its talk page. YS, --  Sh @ dow / /  Haze  19:39, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Man Shadow, how many times have you been warned about discussing on the AN? Alex Soi saved yo ass there. A new misery  19:52, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Since some people seem to keep doing this: stop using votes to force merges or other presentation changes. Votes are supposed to reflect the viability of a build, and not anything else. If you'd trash this as either a merged any/A (you'd have to average your expected votes for the separate professions though) or split E/A, that's fine as long as you've got the reasoning to do so. What's not fine by me is misusing the voting system. We have the merge tag for a reason, just like we've already had the merge discussion. Rask and Them are having their votes removed for these reasons. If they wish to revote without trying to push for merge/guide in their vote they can.

Jai's recent trash vote seems to be a knee-jerk response to drama and I'd like an actual reason he lowered it to 0-0 without changing his reason substantially. -- Toraen   confer  05:31, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
 * My rating would have been like 2-2 initially, but I had kept it higher because I was trying to avoid the massive amount of drama that would have come with me trashing it. Now that pandora's box has not only been opened but fucking ripped to shreds, I think it's pretty safe to say there's not point in not voting the way I actually feel about it. Also, as I just mentioned on Alex's page, Rask trashed the build and later said "hey let's merge the builds as a compromise." His reasoning for trashing this wasn't because he wanted a guide instead. Them/Moonite's vote is a different story, though. -- Jai .  -  05:36, April 11 2012 (UTC)
 * By voting 0-0, you're essentially saying that it's around as effective as flare spamming. I personally think that this has much more utility and damage then flare spamming. Random Weird Guy 12:35, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
 * How do we determine that a build is 0-0? How bad must it be? DiogoALS 12:44, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Votes are based on opinions, and my opinion is that this build is out of date and is no longer necessary to be stored, I'm sorry you disagree with me but I believe 0-0 shows my opinion clearly and as such my vote will stand as is. -- Jai .  -  12:54, April 11 2012 (UTC)
 * What makes it outdated? Which other ele's build fulfills the same role but better? DiogoALS 16:23, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Rant
Before the ele update, nobody really gave a shit about builds other than AP Elementalist. This is because the rule of thumb that elemental damage is shitty in PvE. Instead of bothering with damage from elemental skills, people used the AP chain. This is the same attitude with Necromancers and Monks. The bonus with AP chain is that you can still put 12 points in an attribute and get more utility or damage from it; see Chain Lightning/LOrb or Churning Earth. Jeydra explained this well enough that I don't have to, go read up that guru shit if you have little or no experience with Elementalists yourself. So prior to the update, AP Ele was the meta bar for high end PvE. This applies both to 3 hero and still after 7 hero update. The only other notable builds at this time was Searing Flames and Invoke Lightning, as even with underwhelming damage at high end, spamming the shit out of it with EBSoH and other buffs made it worth running. Just don't mention bullshit like Burning doing awesome degen damage. That was the whole basis for my posting of SFway. But keep in mind, SF was still a niche build and most people didn't like it for the "elemental damage is shit" proverb. I never found Invoke Lightning terribly attractive, but feel free to spew crap about Jeydra using it in speedruns and how it's awesome. It's moved to niche use now after the ele update.

0-0ing a build is fucking stupid. To 0-0 the build means it's complete and utter crap and inferior to every build available on the wiki. If your reasoning is that it's inferior to other builds on the wiki, I understand that. But this was the fucking meta for high end. So why are people doing an aboutface on their position about the effectiveness of the build? It can't be because of the update. The update gave enemies a meager amount of extra health. Big fucking whoop. The elemental damage part of the the AP build compensates for this along with the fact your 7 hero team does way too much damage to care. I detaileded this in my stupid block of text. What the update did do was push the SF ele as more viable than the before; if you don't like using SF more now than you did before the update, I'm calling you either ignorant or a moron. What is usually brought up is the EA ele. This is where things get muddy, because people start bringing up crap similar to AP Mesmer where you don't "need" AP anymore because recharges are short enough that your damage output is higher using EA. Well fuck, you're using pretty much identical skills with your cookie cutter Fireball, Rodogort's Invocation, Liquid Flame/Meteor spam. If you think that it makes so much difference that you decide to trashvote the AP build, you better provide a clear and strong argument that you know what the hell you're talking about or someone is eventually going to come along and call your bullshit.

I don't use AP ele for nuking. If I wanted to pump AoE damage and spike entire groups down, I would use EA or SF, as everyone seems so eager to point out in their arguments. I use AP chain when I want to spike individual foes, that is to say, push kills. I don't care about about damage, my heroway does that part for me. My heroway has been doing that part ever since the 7 hero update. If I still want damage output when I use AP, then Fire Magic is readily available. I lose a couple points in Fire Magic, big fucking deal, I still get spam nukes at approximately the same rate and have Meteor or Meteor Shower available to spam. The ele update made me give a shit about the elemental damage part of the AP build. If I don't need more nuking (such as covering that in my hero team), I can grab Chain/LOrb for pushing kills or get some great utility from spamming Churning Earth and/or Eruption now that DoT doesn't do shit damage. The ability to take out key enemies like monks and nukers with AP chain while being able to nuke seems to be understated. Maybe some players don't like this, either because it doesn't fit their playstyle or they have shit teams. I find this bullshit about using AoS and EBSoW ridiculous. No one uses these for the some reason you don't use AP, skill recharges are already short enough. If you need to spam Meteor or RI more, you run an AP build instead of compensating for lack of damage from your team. Because again, you're using EA or SF to spike groups, not to bring enough damage as possible and hope it's enough; we're way past the point bringing enough damage to spike down groups. Maybe people don't find this true or that's not how they play the game, but that's the current direction for the metagame for high end PvE.

The AP Ele trades some damage and spiking ability for shit loads of utility and flexibility. If that doesn't make it a great build in your opinion or your opinion differs on such, then you are going to find it less effective than other builds. Sounds like a solid and sensible argument, drop a point in effectiveness and/or universality. I can agree with that and most people will accept that argument and rating even if they don't agree. The difference is so marginal however, that to take such a stern stance and punish severely the build for it would be in error on your part. To give it a vote that evaluates the build as trash is a disservice to all builds that actually deserve a 3-3 or 0-0 rating.-- Relyk 11:03, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
 * here is a word count for you: (damage 18, build 17,ap 16, update 10, ele 8, use 8, shit 8, people 6, enough 6, elemental 6, because 6, sf 5, fuck 5). This lists your most used words and their number of occurrences.  It is a good tl;dr Smitysmitehex.png <font color=black face="Lucida Blackletter">Smity Smitington <font color=black face="Lucida Blackletter">!!   on 14:23, April 11 2012 (UTC) 14:23, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but that was an incredibly pointless response. What are you trying to prove by pointing out that the most used words there are 'damage', 'build' and 'ap'? Surely a review/discussion/rant on an ap elementalist build would use those 3 words the most? Random Weird Guy 14:57, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
 * It's just a friendly service I am providing. But hey, if you want a typically response: "I agree". Smitysmitehex.png <font color=black face="Lucida Blackletter">Smity Smitington <font color=black face="Lucida Blackletter">!!   on 16:28, April 11 2012 (UTC) 16:28, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Hooray for relyk for posting a wall of text that ive been too lazy to! Life Guardian 20:08, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
 * probably won't matter. evidently, 0-0ing stuff gives them a sense of accomplishment that they otherwise can't win from logical argumentation. who can resist denial and instant gratification! &#9823;Fianchetto [[Image:Mending.jpg|19px|link=User_talk:Fianchetto]] 21:23, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

0-0'ing
Or even 1-1'ing or 2-2'ing in this case, is beyond moronic. What you are implying with these kinds of votes is that the build has no use whatsoever which is beyond a joke. If you feel SF/EA are better now then mention that in your vote and say this is more effective, HOWEVER, that does not impede on this builds effectiveness. As many people have reasoned above me, AP Ele is still super strong in tough HM areas, and it probably always will be, however SF/EA have their own uses in other areas. What Jaigoda and co would be rallying for is an archive if they feel this build is completely useless because of the ele updates so I don't understand the trash votes.

If you feel this build is dead and should be archived you will have to prove it to a majority of the audience on this talk page, if you can't do that then the page will stay, simple. And anymore vote balancing on the subject shall be hammered down with justice and fortitude. <font color="Black">Frostels 08:00, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * then at least look at the lack of reasoning by those that 5-5 vote balance it. --  Sh @ dow / /  Haze  08:51, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Shadow... You never listen, do you? Frosty clearly should have locked the page once he flicked it into Great :P ~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs 09:22, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * that's nonsense. You want this page protected so people like me can't "hurt" your precious build --  Sh @ dow / /  Haze  09:50, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * So there can't be 0-0 troll scores, because there's yet to exist any argument to prove that an AP Caller Elementalist is an extremely terrible, inefficient, amateur mess of a build. It's not. DiogoALS 12:37, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not trying to get the build trashed per say, but it no longer deserves to be in Great, and while I personally find it to be an ineffective build in comparison to the other Ele options, I recognize that it's still meta and still probably deserves to stay (similar to Discord, or Moebius as I was not in favor of its archival because of it's meta-ness). Also, I would appreciate a heads up on removing my vote. Maybe just a quick note on my talk page or something. Also, there are multiple votes that are balancing with 5-5, and everyone seems to be ignoring those. -- Jai .  -  14:52, April 14 2012 (UTC)
 * Mentioned that multiple times, but it gets ignored. --  Sh @ dow / /  Haze  14:59, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * That's not balancing. It IS a 5-5 build. I doubt anyone changed their vote to compensate for bad votes, we just raged. ~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs 18:18, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * 5-5ing, 0-0ing, 1-1ing are all considered vote balancing. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 18:21, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Not really. 5-5 doesn't mean 100% perfect. It means it performs very well what it was designed to do. Which is subjective, to a degree (depending how great you find it). 0-0ing a build is saying it doesn't fuction, it's stupid and anyone running it are gimping themselves to high-heavens. The only time 5-5 is vote-balancing is when you can prove someone raised their vote to max after a trash vote. ~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs 18:30, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * This build is way too strong at what it does, that you really really need excellent arguments to give it anything bellow a 3. I'm still waiting to read any of them. It needs discord? This destroys any foe in seconds, what's discord for? It requires investing in a secondary attribute? But it frees up the elemental attributes completely. This build depends on its elite to work properly? Oh my, I wonder why... AoS recharges your skills 10% of the time? You can't make a build like this with AoS. It's not as good at AoE damage as EA? That's possibly the best thing that can be said against an AP Caller, but the later, in addition to the huge spike and KD-chain, can still be decent enough at AoE damage. Fine, give it a 4, or even give it a 3 if that bothers you too much. I personally think spamming Meteor Showers, Eruptions and Churning Earths for cool AoE damage and massive mob control each 5-10 seconds is worth more to the success of my party than spamming Rodgort from an EA Fire build.DiogoALS 20:30, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * if its great then it can also be be 5-4'd you know. 5-5 signifies that it is 100% perfect in both fields of effectiveness and universality. But also, people are that fucking desperate to troll the other trolls trolling this build. Nothing new. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 20:37, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Not really. You can't have a subjective 100% perfect. Opinion doesn't work like that. 5-5 does not mean 100%. It means you believe they are "very universal" and "very effective", that's all. A lot of people lower universality one point just to balance the build rating, but it doesn't work like that, as Alex pointed out. ~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs 21:59, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * nothing's perfect, kid. you 5-5 stuff too. inconsistency is fun! @others: are you guys just upset that it's in "good," or are you seriously trying to teach people how to vote (glhf with that) &#9823;Fianchetto [[Image:Mending.jpg|19px|link=User_talk:Fianchetto]] 23:40, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Lol the up- and downvoting is still going on I see xD @Fianchetto: stop your editing, nobody cares! <font color="Black">Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 01:33, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * it's a tough job calling out people's lollogic, but it benefits the general. people just take it too personally :) and wb Vorpal-man &#9823;Fianchetto [[Image:Mending.jpg|19px|link=User_talk:Fianchetto]] 16:03, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * YEAH, IT IS. GOT TO CALL PEOPLE OUT FOR BEING WRONG ON THE INTERNET. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 19:32, 15 April 2012 (UTC)