Build talk:P/W Imbagon

Weapon Suggestion
The equipment for this indicates a zealous, vampiric, or sundering spear tip. It seems to me that the build centers around SY, which is adrenaline based. Shouldnt the suggested tip then be furious instead to increase the use of SY? --Ascalon Destroyer 18:21, June 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * The assumption is that you're running this with an orders derv (or whatever's hip that includes dark fury) so that you're charging SY in two attacks, so it's not needed. Instead, more damage or energy management is good, depending on your variant of the build. &mdash; Maf so rational. 22:58, June 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Tbh I think energy isn't a problem, and since you usually don't want elemental mods(for barbs,OoP, etc.) your best off going with vamp for extra damage Sharky  talk  23:06, June 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know, it depends what you're taking in the optionals. More energy-heavy things need more energy management.  But do what you like. &mdash; Maf so rational. 04:37, June 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * I can think of a few variants that would want a zealous mod, but I think (though I don't have the math to back it up) that +3 (unmitigatable) damage per attack generally outdoes the increased damage from using your attack skills a bit more often.
 * That said, damage isn't the main focus of this character, so use what you have readily available. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 03:33, June 3, 2010 (UTC)

Why Anthems?
TNTF is all you need to maintain AR. Why would anyone need an anthem? Especially if it means stopping your running every time you need to recast.


 * TNTF's recharge makes it annoying to use to maintain AR because it requires paying attention.
 * Beyond that, in a team with large numbers of physicals, AoF provides a bunch of damage and AoW provides fuel for Stunning Strike, etc, in addition to being weakness, which is powerful in and of itself.
 * -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 23:14, June 3, 2010 (UTC)

This build needs to be revisited.
I recently started using this build on my paragon, and I don't know what it is, but it just seems to not be working correctly. Agressive refrain does not stay on, energy management sucks because there is none, damage is pretty bad (I know it's not intended to be doing huge amounts of damage, but people expect other players to mostly damage unless they are healers/etc.), and personally I don't like TNTF or SY, they just don't seem all that great. Just my two cents. --Comander Guardian 22:00, June 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * you're suppose to use it with an orders necro generally. you can maintain AR with tn2f, but if you have trouble, bring anthem of flame. also tntf and sy probably dont seem amazing if you're not doing hm areas where enemies hit 100s and nuke the whole party-- Relyk  talk  22:17, June 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * FYI for every 40 amour points reduces damage by half. SY rocks--- X  TREME 22:43, June 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * This build is perfectly viable without an orders character. This build has great energy-management (6 free energy from SY every few seconds). AR is easy to keep up with TNTF and/or an Anthem. 18:28, August 4, 2010 (UTC)

Some changes?
Point 1: Flurry is always better than aggression. It says in optionals that it can replace aggression but not suggested for beginning paragons. 1st, wiki is supposed to store optimal builds, no? 2nd, how is it hard at all to use flurry? 3rd, faster ims is better obviously and not being squishy when you are the only player not buffed with save yourselves is ideal. Point 2: The damage provided by this build is very subpar, it is much more of a defensive build than a damage build, so why is spear mastery the highest attribute at 13? Imo lower it to 9 and bring leadership to 14, better e-management and longer lasting "There's nothing to fear!" Point 3: Fall back should definitely be an optional, is great for any team no using cons. Smity 21:15, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * flurry is a waste of energy, flurry is a waste of energy, and paragons aren't squishie
 * atleast you're doing some damage, you don't need more energy, and 1 second longer isn't significant
 * look in variants and stop being an autist
 * -- Relyk  talk  22:03, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Agressive refrain -20 armor makes para's alot more squishy. I guess I am not seeing any reason to ever use aggressive refrain..  Even with flurry's damage reduction, it probably does more damage because of damage buffs like orders, EBSoH, barbs, MoP, etc.  Smity 22:13, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, you say "flurry is a waste of energy" and "you don't need more energy" in the same breath. Smity 22:43, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * let me rephrase it in a way that you won't take out of context: you dont need more energy from using shouts-- Relyk  talk  22:45, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * One second longer "There's nothing to fear!" is nice, and the extra energy from shouts helps if you think that flurry is such a drain on energy. Flurry is clearly superior, if it wasn't why does the build page say that flurry is for experienced paras?   My whole point is that flurry should be main barred and aggressive should go to optionals for "inexperienced paras". Smity 22:50, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Because an anon put it there. believe it or not, spears actually do damage! what you sacrifice to deal some damage is really insignificant if ever you used the build.-- Relyk  talk  23:11, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * To quote Racthoh, "WHEN I CAN'T SY WAND DPS MAKES ME WIPE!".
 * You're way too concerned about survivability. An imbagon with Aggressive up has (80 base + 16 shield + 10 insignia - 20 AR = ) 86 AL and ~600 HP. It's not like you're going to fall over in two seconds. If you're in hard mode and things are hitting you for a lot of damage, get your monk to put pretty much any prot on you.
 * 1s longer TNTF isn't worth decreased tab-space damage unless your team can't keep you up anyway (in which case you should probably bring a healer who knows how to push buttons). Flurry is weak because it decreases your damage dealt and drains a billion energy per second (which you should be spending on attack skills/ward honor/etc).
 * Way too many people underestimate spear DPS. This is a build that provides enough defense to justify bringing only one healer for a lot of areas; increasing the duration of TNTF by one second isn't going to mean you can drop that healer. Since you can still tab around and do reasonably ridiculous damage (at range, no less!), there's no point in not building for such. Granted, it's not going to do much against 360AL targets, but again, the extra second of TNTF isn't going to help much there anyway, so you've got nothing to lose (and you should be using a specific team build for those kinds of areas, not this build).
 * -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 18:20, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

I removed the note stating Flurry should only be brought with GFTE due to energy management. Flurry + SY = +2 net energy gain every 5 seconds... I realize that math is hard, and also that those of you using the imbagon for his EPIC SPEAR DAMAGE might skimp on the SY spamming, but I've never had energy trouble bringing flurry, and that means you shouldn't either.67.182.24.195 16:59, July 27, 2010 (UTC)

flurry should really be main bar... skakid9090 00:01, September 17, 2010 (UTC)

Honestly, after using both Aggressive Refrain and Flurry I have to agree that Flurry is far superior. I don't understand how it is hard to spam it, so I don't understand why it is only good for experience Imbas. I agree that it should be main bar... Wingfoot 08:42, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Asuran Scan vs EBSoH
Reliable adrenaline gain (no block nor miss) or increased party damage which should be in the main build?--77.218.232.156 02:29, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * AScan is already in the variants with a concise explanation for when to take it over EBSoH, no need to change to the main bar.-- Amor  [[Image:Harrier's_Haste.jpg|19px]] 02:34, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * IMO, the 3rd PvE skills should be left blank on the main bar, then an optional saying to take either Asuran Scan, EBSoH or Spear of Fury, depending on area, preference and needs. None of the three is superior and each has its own uses. If your are the only melee player, EBSoH isn't that big damage buff at all. If you have low SS rank or having trouble maintaining SY, Spear of Fury is nice. If there is a lot of blocking or blinding, Asuran Scan is great. 18:14, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Melee/Caster
Is this build classed as a melee build or caster when deciding what type of support heros to add to the party? 109.175.246.73 12:53, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Count yourself as a melee, take physical buffs like splinter weapon. -- [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px]] Chieftain  Alex  13:02, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Drunken Master
So, I was reading the P builds cause of my newest project, and i missed something in here; Drunken Master, it's easier to keep up then AR is, and with alcohol (which you should have when you take it) its superior to AR's buffs AND doesn't make you more squishy, leaving you with the 100AL you naturally have. Deadfalk  20:29, 21 March 2011 (UTC) (if this is something stupid im saying, just say it, i've got nearly 0% Para experience)
 * Takes a PvE skill slot though. Dzjudz 20:45, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
 * You can use it if you want, no one said you can't-- Relyk  talk  21:04, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Paragons don't know how to party.Anvil God 23:43, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
 * oops, pve slot, forgot that XD edit: Deadfalk Deadfalksig.jpg 19:01, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

"To the Limit!"
Surely you could use "TtL!" to keep AR up? It's listed as a variant, but surely it's worth noting that as, in a caster-heavy team, it's probably more useful to you even with only a few points in Tactics than a near-useless Anthem of Flame or Weakness? 86.147.7.94 21:47, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

My suggestion for a variant
Based on the DoA build, may I suggest the following variant for an imbagon: [build prof=P/W spe=3 comma=12+3 lea=12+1+3]["Save Yourselves!" (Luxon)]["There's Nothing to Fear!"][Optional]["Stand Your Ground!"][Optional][Focused Anger][Signet of Aggression]["We Shall Return!"][/build] Put your utility shouts in the slot:
 * for permanent adrenaline bonus.
 * for energy management for teammates.
 * for speed boosts.
 * For countering areas with heavy touch skills (e.g. Throw Dirt, Vampiric Bite)
 * For blindness removal for a team of 4-6
 * (Or other adrenaline based shout/chants) for your energy management
 * ADDED: For IAS to gain adrenaline faster

Equipment: Weapon slot 1: Weapon slot 2: (for teams of 4-6)
 * Centurion insignias
 * Rune of Clarity, vitae and highest Vigor rune you can afford
 * Furious spear of Fortitute with "I have the Power!" inscription
 * command shield of Fortitude with "Master of My Domain!" inscription
 * Zealous spear of Fortitute with "I have the Power!" inscription
 * command shield of Fortitude with "Master of My Domain!" inscription

Usage:
 * 1) Activate Focused Anger before engaging.
 * 2) Shout on the puller/tank when engaging to enemies (for team of heroes, flag your heroes->pull->spam shouts)
 * 3) Maintain "Stand Your Ground!" so signet of aggression will add adrenaline whenever you activate it
 * 4) Attack with spear (preferrably the ones the rest of the team is NOT focusing on) to accumulate adrenaline while signet of aggression is recharging
 * 5) Energy should not be a problem with a team of 8, but in the unlikely event (such as split team or team of 4-6), switch to the zealous set to attack instead of using signet of aggression

Advantages: Disadvantages:
 * Melee counters are no longer a problem. You just use Signet of aggression instead of attacking in that case.
 * Permanant "Stand your ground" makes up for less max health and any gap between "Save Yourselves!"
 * Heavy reliance on teammates to do damage
 * Spirit of Primal Echoes will essentially force you to attack
 * subpar energy management with a team of 4 or 6 (due to outpost limit or split team); can be mitigated by having a spirit spammer/minion master and a ally-affecting shout ("Never Give up!" "Never Surrender!" and "Go for the Eyes!" works wonders with minions)

I look forward to your comments. K61824 03:09, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
 * No. Just get a few hex removals and Mend Body and Soul with the standard minion wall. Don't gimp your bar just to get a crappy anti-melee counter. Not to mention that Signet of Aggression only gives 2 adren, 4 with Focused, which means you'll only be able to use SY every 12 seconds. SYG is retarded, because an Imbagon's whole purpose is to maintain SY; if the Imbagon can't do that, then just don't run it. -- Jai . -  04:59, May 26 2011 (UTC)
 * I would say that factoring duration of SY, 1 signet + 2 hits without IAS to maintain SY is a viable alternative (there are optional slots to put IAS in, so please don't get it started). I also would argue that if the whole purpose is to maintain SY, lower spear mastery would be beneficial because you want that one particular enemy to last longer (to reduce failed attacks due to your target dying and the need to move around, given the AI implementation in general) while the rest of your party take care of the rest of the enemy team.  And you might want to suggest changes to the frostway build if you believe SYG is "retarded" in that sense.  K61824 20:45, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The only reason they use signet of aggression is blind from dervishes, which should be asuran scan now. Also, the argument that you shouldn't kill stuff just to maintain SY is completely absurd and has been suggested before. Dead enemies won't kill you.-- Relyk 22:55, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
 * SYG isn't retarded. I'm a 4.5 year Paragon veteran, way before it was cool to play a Paragon. I always use it. Especially in DoA, there's way too many counters. And unfortunately, you're not always presented a pro monk or support player to remove every hex you get, regardless how much you ping it. SYG I use just incase I can't get off SY. Atleast the party has SOME buff. I see alot of Imbagons in DoA running TTL and Fallback. It makes me wanna cry. Half the outpost is filled with 2011 Paragons, and not any have a clue. Praise you for suggesting SYG. You'll be glad you brought it. I also suggest ditching your Rez, if Rez scrolls are in your inventory. You can bring Song of Concentration, Hexbreaker Aria, or something more useful. If you're coordinated with your backline. Never Surrender is a very good choice, especially against the degen found in Foundry and some parts of Gloom (assuming DoA is the topic at hand). And if you think I don't know what I'm talking about, please refer to the 54 minute Frostway record me and my Guild uphold in DoA. Very few deaths, and running one monk. Yeah. I don't think SYG is that lame. Any more questions about running Para send me a message in-game (True Quality). Peace. Quality 09:02, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
 * DoA is a very different exception because there all you're trying to do is give defense. You don't have to care about damage at all, because the DwG's are doing that for you. There's also an uncommonly large amount of anti-shout and anti-adren in DoA, which is why SYG and Signet of Agression are brought. In general PvE, the DoA imbagon is far from optimal, and in the vast majority of situations bringing Asuran Scan will enough to prevent any attempts at block/blind. The fact the SYG is essentially only going to be used if SY goes down (when maintaining SY is the whole point of an imbagon) says that it should only be reserved for extreme situations. -- Jai . -  11:24, August 29 2011 (UTC)
 * 4 year GWAMM paragon here. The suggested reason for bringing SYG to DoA is ridiculous. Do the maths, switching from SY protection to SYG protection would increase damage by 372% (82,3% reduction to 34% reduction). So, instead of being able to take, for example, 10 big hits before dieing, you won't even be able to take 3. I however would suggest bringing SYG to DoA for a single other reason: the AI of foes. They have a tendency of targeting the lower AL targets. If you play DoA a lot as any role, you can easily see that an imbagon is targeted the most because that character has the lowest AL when SY is up. And if the imbagon dies, everybody takes way more damage and the risk of wiping is increased a lot. Safety of the imbagon is therefore closely related to the safety of the team. The best thing I found to improve the safety of the team is to get your AL as high as possible. That means: centurions, shield with +10 to demons, +5 defense on spear AND maintain SYG. This gives you an AL of 80+10+16+10+5+24=145. With this high armor, you will have high defense and will be targeted a lot less as imbagon. Therefore, in DoA, SYG is good as an indirect safety for the team. I would not suggest it for use outside of extreme situations. Signet of agression is very bad. Bring TTL or Make Your Time for those situations that general ways of adrenaline gain are insufficient. 21:10, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Writeups like that in a subsection of variants would be awesome. Very informative. Skakid9090
 * Signet has a faster CD. 82.34.130.132 02:42, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Pardon the rookie question
But how important is the shield? I'm usually on the backline and not really taking the brunt of the attacks. (The fact I lack a Command shield is completely coincidental to this question)--  anguard  18:46, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Well if you are keeping SY up, which you should be, the AI will prioritise you over anyone else due to your lower armor [about 100 less than everyone else] - the shield will make a noticable difference and you should go get a q9 :p [imho attributes should be 9+1 spear, 9+1 command and 12 leadership but thats another story]  [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] Chieftain   Alex  19:23, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * yea, and use flurry instead of aggressive refrain Smity Smitington 20:49, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * you should both uninstall gw.exe Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 21:14, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * flurry is pro. /qed Smity Smitington 21:21, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * there's no reason not to always use flurry (except maybe quicksand or energy drain enviroeffects) &mdash;  skakid 
 * Flurry is pretty poor for a paragon with weak attacks that pretty much relies on autos. AR or SF are both fine options, as always. The alternative is Frenzy or Soldier's Stance. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 23:20, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Here's what you do; Prot Spirit goes on the para, para spams SY, ???, profit. Fuck shields, 16AL does nothing in Hard Mode vs big domoges. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 21:28, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * So what the hell are you suggesting the paragon use instead? lol focus.-- [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] Chieftain  Alex  21:30, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Focus item??? Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 21:35, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Didn't say that :p they're just not important for the extra armour. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 00:09, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
 * +16 AR is an approximate 25% armor-affected damage reduction. While prot spirit is nice, a free permanent 1/4 reduction is also good to have seeing as you are the squishiest character. --  Toraen   talk  00:47, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
 * A paragon with 80 armor, alright 70 if you count in Aggressive Refrain and Centurion's insignias, ain't squishy at all. Btw paras have TNTF and the whole "put prot spirit"-argument just doesn't hold ground, according to that logic we can just diminish armor ratings at all and rate builds solely on DPS. Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 01:30, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, but with so much prot on your allies and TNT/plenty of armour already on yourself, PS and a few spot heals are all you need to mop up the excess damage. No real harm done. Of course a shield is optimal, but nowhere near necessary. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 01:46, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Sidenote: Vanguard, I have a spare Shagu's Anthem if you want it. [r9 command, +30hp, -5 phys dmg (20%)]-- [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] Chieftain  Alex  10:21, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I do have a paragon, Alex, but it's boring as hell to run. One-bar prof. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 14:18, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I would appreciate that, Alex.-- VanguardLogo75px.png anguard  04:00, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Damage
Why would this build ever focus on damage? Why would you pick Aggressive Refrain over Flurry? AR reduces your armor, which is huge in this build. You want your armor and health to be as high as possible so you don't get targeted often. Plus, it's 25% vs 33%, meaning more adrenaline and more party support. Anywhere you'd be using this, you don't need the extra .4 DPS from AR, and you certainly don't need to worry about upkeeping it. I really can't see the reasoning behind it. &mdash; Skakid  Rally- kupo! 21:46, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * less effort? [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain  <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  22:38, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Your armor rating should be 86, because you get +10 from the Centurion insignias, combined with the +16 from the shield that you're holding I would say that you still have a pretty decent armor rating. The problem is that when you're spamming SY! you will end up having the lowest armor rating most of the time, since SY! doesn't affect you. AR is a bitch to maintain, but spamming flurry is even more bothersome imo. <font color="Black">Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 22:46, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Effort to use it does not come into the equation. I thought we already went over this. --  Toraen   talk  22:49, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Perks of AR: slightly higher spear DPS. Perks of Flurry: Higher armor, slightly faster SY! build up, and slightly faster physical buff exploitation. Imo the one with the most perks wins. Smity Smitington 22:56, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Problem with flurry: Must maintain 24/7 in combat, which means not forgetting it every 5 seconds, along with all other skills to spam, you forget your IAS very quickly, or even worse, "SY" <FONT COLOR="#000000">S</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000033">h</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000066">a</FONT><FONT COLOR="#00009a">d</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000cd">o</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff">w</FONT> 23:06, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * As I JUST SAID: PvX does not care if the player messes up. Possible player error is not something we vet on. --  Toraen   talk  23:16, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I know you said it, but that's why we have it as variant. Free choices =) <FONT COLOR="#000000">S</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000033">h</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000066">a</FONT><FONT COLOR="#00009a">d</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000cd">o</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff">w</FONT> 23:17, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but we're debating which should be mainbar. Bringing up something that doesn't matter (and is very subjective) repeatedly isn't very helpful. --  Toraen   talk  23:25, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Because if this build is used as a 7H player bar, they should be able to focus some damage themselves; after all, you don't monk in a 7H. I like yellow numbz ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 23:34, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I think AR, because you need to cast it once, do not have to think about it again, the -20 armor is nothing, since you are not frontlining anyway, have additional armor from insignias and shield and beside that, echoes can't be removed. It is energy inexpensive in comparison to flurry and 33% against 25% is almost no difference, since you can pull off the same result of "SY!", because you can't lengthen the duration of "SY!" by stacking. Toraen, this doesn't include human behaviour, but I do seriously want to remind people that human error is sometimes a vital error :P. <FONT COLOR="#000000">S</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000033">h</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000066">a</FONT><FONT COLOR="#00009a">d</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000cd">o</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff">w</FONT> 23:37, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Honestly if you have to use imbagon in 7H u should just uninstall. Smity Smitington 23:45, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Honestly you are probably right about the armor not making a difference. As long as everything goes smoothly 25% and 33% ais don't really make a difference in party support.  In corner cases though the faster IAS can make a difference for building up SY! faster.  AR also has a tendency to waste "There's nothing to fear!".  Outside of battles the only way to keep AR up is with There's nothing to fear, sometimes doing this might make it unavailable for when the player actually needs it. Smity Smitington 23:52, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * -20ar or lower dps? Both are almost negligible. When everyone else has +100ar it's not like the healers will have a hard time compensating for your -20ar. On the other hand, no need to mourn over 0.12 second difference in attack speed. I have a feeling most will choose AR just because it's convenient, while more experienced people will choose Flurry to take advantage of incidental buffs like Great Dwarf/Splinter Weapon. I vote mainbar AR just because there's no huge difference in actual performance and the masses will be happier with less button-pressing. Why put inspiration magic/ranger rupts on hero bars but not humans, it's unavoidable Fianchetto 23:54, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Better players would use flurry = flurry is better. This is the standard by which builds are vetted on wiki, not to cater to the masses.  There are advantages to each, although flurry has more, while one of AR's biggest advantages is ease.  Imo neither should be mainbarred, but made into an optional IAS slot, since different situations and team builds make the differences. Smity Smitington 00:05, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * HONESTLY, better players wouldn't run imbagon because it's overkill. You should be running Imbowgon w/ Barrage. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 00:06, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Imo it should NOT be a 7h player bar, save for particularly difficult areas. It is definitely more suited for pugs and elite areas.  In hero way you want damage from the player not needlessly OP defense. Smity Smitington 00:08, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You're better off playing dagger spam para in a 7hero party, imbagon is still very popular and useful in pugs though. <font color="Black">Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 00:14, 20 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The thing is, you want every small armor boost possible. 96 v 160 is a big difference, so you want to minimize that as much as possible.
 * You're not really gonna use this in low-damage areas, so it's gonna be you that's getting the shit kicked out of you. AI works like that. Minimize those chances. &mdash; <font color="#CC0099">Skakid  Rally- kupo! [[Image:S9M.png]] 02:45, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Wait, is skakid worried about a paragon getting attacked in PvE? herp-- Relyk 03:16, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes. &mdash; <font color="#CC0099">Skakid  Rally- kupo! [[Image:S9M.png]] 04:55, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Why do you think you run all those major/sup runes on heroes?-- Relyk 05:14, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Do I have to answer every time you ask me about heroes? I'm really tired of you bringing up heroes. I'm not talking about heroes. Anyway... you want to be as resistant as possible. bringing a skill that reduces your armor when you can bring a skill that doesn't reduce your armor is stupid. close the gap as much as you can. &mdash; <font color="#CC0099">Skakid  Rally- kupo! [[Image:S9M.png]] 06:46, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * -20 armor on a Paragon doesn't make difference in the slightest. I could give a shit whether you use flurry or aggressive refrain.-- Relyk 02:48, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Good opinion, but you're totally incorrect. You're completely missing the point, when you can develop some basic reading comprehension you can make constructive contributions to discussion. &mdash; <font color="#CC0099">Skakid  Rally- kupo! [[Image:S9M.png]] 06:44, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Are you fucking retarded or what? You aren't going to die because you have 20 less armor. That's totally irrelevant to which IAS is better.-- Relyk 09:45, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Read, you thick-headed bastard. &mdash; <font color="#CC0099">Skakid  Rally- kupo! [[Image:S9M.png]] 15:58, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't understand why you think armor loss factors in to choosing flurry over AR. It was never an issue before, why make it an issue now?-- Relyk 07:37, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Wtf, how is spamming flurry whenever you see it's off cooldown hard. Oh look its not dark anymore, guess I should I click it. Also, imbagon shouldn't give a shit about dps, but the ability to get SY! off faster with 33ias is important for the places you would need an imbagon. AR is bad. Roland 09:32, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It's not hard, but it means you have to spam it 24/7, every 5 seconds, and people are easily forgetting that. <FONT COLOR="#000000">S</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000033">h</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000066">a</FONT><FONT COLOR="#00009a">d</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000cd">o</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff">w</FONT> 06:57, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * If that's the main objection just tape together keyboard 2 and 3 and bang it with your nose repeatedly Fianchetto 09:28, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Overwhelming arguments for flurry, vs "cant be bothered" for SY. Dumb logic is dumb, flurry should be mainbar and AR the variant for the lazy ass people. Tbh, after about 30 seconds of playing, you would hit it every 5 seconds subconciously and its not like energy is a problem. Genuinely, noone has provided an advantage to AR yet. Rawr 09:46, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Use frenzy? <font color="Black">Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 11:31, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * That's why we keep you as pvp player rawr... <FONT COLOR="#000000">S</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000033">h</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000066">a</FONT><FONT COLOR="#00009a">d</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000cd">o</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff">w</FONT> 15:23, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Stop being wicked fucking dumb. You have just proved my statement completely. None of you can provide reasoning except the fact you are lazy faggots. Wiki keeps "perfect" situation builds, not "i cant be bothered" ones. Genuinely, provide reasoning. You can't. I haven't even contributed, I've just commented on the argument on both sides. Don't give that "you're a pvp player" shit because all I've done is sum up the argument. Really, give reasons and people may listen to you. Rawr 10:16, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Orly? You sure about that? I think I have to disagree there. -- Jai . -  12:47, November 22 2011 (UTC)
 * I am talking about this, and how it conforms with pvx policy. If you believe those do not also conform then please take them up on the seperate build pages. That is rather irrelevant. Rawr 12:57, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * But I don't have a problem, and few other people do. That's the point. There are builds that we recognize aren't the optimal setup, but are stored because not everyone can run the absolute optimal setup, the good example being Frostway and Trenchway. 7HPS is also about creating a build that will work for everyone, not for making the fastest hero build. In fact, we don't even have a truly hardcore speed hero build. As for this build, AR is close enough in efficiency to Flurry that it can mostly be personal preference (and it does do more damage and costs a lot less, which are both advantages). Yes, technically Flurry is better in general, but if you want to go with the super optimization route then you'd have to change a lot more on the page. For one, attack skills (and damage of any kind) are completely on this build, and EBSoH really doesn't need to be run on the imbagon. See the Frostway Imbagon as an example. -- Jai . -  13:34, November 22 2011 (UTC)
 * Want a hardcore speed hero build? :D. Dzjudz sig.png <font color="#47d1de">talk 14:03, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Rawr, I didn't use it as argument. You even said you were not going to bother with pve builds. Well, I agree Flurry will be better if you know how to spam and not forget. The problem is most can't. It is a personal choice, and I think AR wins. <FONT COLOR="#000000">S</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000033">h</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000066">a</FONT><FONT COLOR="#00009a">d</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000cd">o</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff">w</FONT> 14:30, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Everyone can spam Flurry on recharge, so your argument is irrelevant. If there's ever a suboptimal setup, change it to the best one. If it's a meta build for a speedclear or something, on the other hand, then put the meta build up that everybody uses. &mdash; <font color="#CC0099">Skakid  Rally- kupo! [[Image:S9M.png]] 16:20, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You must keep an eye on 3/4 skills, forgetting one is very human. Still, I personally would take AR so I'm sure I don't need to watch my IAS <FONT COLOR="#000000">S</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000033">h</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000066">a</FONT><FONT COLOR="#00009a">d</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000cd">o</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff">w</FONT> 16:26, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * People actually wait for their skills to recharge playing imbagon? i just mash my face on 1-4 &mdash; <font color="#CC0099">Skakid  Rally- kupo! [[Image:S9M.png]] 16:29, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Honestly, I mean if you have a problem with keeping up flurry, how do people play stuff like ER or PR? Even if you're so bad that you can't multitask and watch your bar while playing, you can notice that your spears are going quite a bit slower and go "Ups look like I should mash 1-8 again and hopefully hit flurry while also hitting all my other important skills." Also, SY should be recharging in same time frame-ish as flurry should be, if you can watch for SY why can't you watch for flurry?  I just don't understand this argument that hitting flurry is too bothersome and that you would rather use shitty AR. If you're too lazy to hit a skill on recharge, why even run imbagon? Just use 7HPS and cspace with 3-4dmg starter spear. GG pve... Roland 03:38, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

"Find Their Weakness!"
This skill should be in option 1 or 3, or at least variants. It can substitute for a damage attack skill, and it maintains AR for you instead of using an Anthem or wasting TNTF. Also, ranged unconditional deep wound and damage doesn't hurt. Energy cost probably hurts if you use it on recharge along with Flurry, but I'm not a fan of Flurry on this bar. I haven't checked the build's history to see if it's ever been there, but this page doesn't have it. MisterB 19:40, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Never mind, I found it in the archive. I still think it should be listed, but not if that means a revert war or whatever. "SY!" alone easily funds the energy when used with AR. MisterB 19:45, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Specialize for consumables usage
I'll be audacious: This build is worse than Build:P/W Soldier's Fury Spear. The other paragon build has about the same protection power while also providing damage. The only way I personally see to have this build stay competitive with the new one is to adjust it for usage with essence of celerity for almost permanent uptimes of focused anger to make a permanent SY uptime 100% sure in teams which need it – like DoA HM teams without tank. I don't see in which other setups the old Imbagon would be used over the spear damage paragon. Opinions? --Krschkr (talk) 02:09, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Soldier's Fury gets a bit more damage at the cost of being more fragile. Sure, you can maintain stuff most of the time, but the problem with Imbagon (and Soldier's Fury), is that as soon as you can't gain adrenalin for whatever reason (blind, anti-melee, anti-adrenalin, blocking, whatever), your massive prot goes bye-bye and all the sudden what your team was depending on is gone. Imbagon is more resilient in these situations, which is enough reason to keep it imo. It also has EBSoH for more party support. Here's my problem with Soldier's Fury: it tries to be Imbagon with more damage, but you don't really need the prot from an Imbagon, heroes can prot you just fine, and imbagon is fragile, so the Soldier's Fury bar probably just gimps its damage output trying to be an Imbagon replacement. I would run something with pure damage focus as a paragon. I think there are some better damage options out there. Sonofthort (talk)
 * Not to say that Imbagon/Soldier's Fury is not a good concept sometimes, I would just want to be sure that Soldier's Fury is as dependable as Imbagon if we are going to archive/change imbagon. Sonofthort (talk) 17:42, 30 December 2018 (UTC)


 * What would you guys think of something like this for non-consumable users with just their heroes? It uses EBSoW to half recharges times for the most commonly used mesmers which should be around where your aggro range is with a spear. Rickyf16aus (talk) 11:49, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

[build prof=P/W name="Imbagon" spe=8+1 comma=10+1 lea=12+1+1]["Save Yourselves!" (Luxon)]["Go for the Eyes!"]["There's Nothing to Fear!"][Ebon Battle Standard of Wisdom][Focused Anger]["For Great Justice!"][Aggressive Refrain]["Fall Back!"][/build]


 * Since this is a meta page, the first listed version of the build should be the consumables version, which is what people actually bring to DoA HM (preferably as much of the bar filled as possible to what groups would expect). The non-cons version (which can be more freeform with optionals) can be listed afterward for other uses. It still in the end is more reliable at maintaining SY than an SF build. Both can exist for general PvE since players should prioritize defensive reliability and their spear damage output differently depending on area, personal skill level, solidness of their hero team, etc. -Toraen (talk) 12:12, 1 January 2019 (UTC)


 * I'll test the bar suggested above with the 5 mesmer paragon team and replace the ST prot with another mesmer (or else the additional defense wouldn't give an advantage) and report back how it worked. But first I'll have to gain wisdom, so don't expect results any time soon.
 * @Toraen: The last frostway I've seen has been a few months ago and before that there weren't too many of them either. So I don't actually know what people would currently expect as a proper paragon bar. In fact, teams which rely on an Imbagon might've been extinguished by speed clears. Do we have some people with a better insight in current Imbagon usage than me around who could figure out the currently favoured/best consumables driven bar? --Krschkr (talk) 14:18, 1 January 2019 (UTC)