User:The Gates Assassin/A warrior with a spear archive

I've seen Signet of Return on W/P Spearchuckers (mainly one in RA). -- Guild of  Deals  15:25, 20 February 2008 (EST)
 * ...wow, resing someone with at maximum 15% health and 3% energy...nice--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]The Gates  Assassin  15:32, 20 February 2008 (EST)

Lulz, I uploaded a Warrior wielding a spear. It's not meant to do damage though..... It's pretty baed. Rickyvantof 15:41, 20 February 2008 (EST)

A stunning strike warrior paragon isn't meant to have the best DPS it's meant to keep daze on a caster and constantly inturupt it. The warrior build you showed first looks like it could apply daze much more often, (and longer as with no conjure flame it can use silencing spear). Not to mention IMHO flail is 100X better then aggressive refrain when using a spear in close quarters (who would use these outside of RA/TA). Plain and simple 80-100al > 60al. 4adren > 25 energy. That anthem of flame isn't emanagement in 4v4 fights.. and honestly its porbably a waste as only 1-2 ppl gonna use it. Also id add maiming spear for snares and harrier's toss for the spike to the warrior build. My 2c on that. I Heal If U Shutup 19:11, 20 February 2008 (EST)


 * Go for the eyes is the energy management since it is free. You only cast aggressive ONCE at the beginning of the match and never have to use it again. He won't have 60 AL. 80 + 16 + 10 vs X damage mod = 106 - 20 = 86. even without the +10 you still have 76 armor. It's not a big deal if you lose that armor anyway. Paragons are only really used in 8 v 8 anyway, taking them in 4 v 4 generally isn't a good idea, however it can work. --[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]The Gates  Assassin  21:21, 20 February 2008 (EST)
 * OH right and the paragon can keep daze up too, and support, and buff other teamates, and deal MORE damage.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]The Gates  Assassin  21:22, 20 February 2008 (EST)

I'd rather instakill a monk with an Evis warrior (yes, I can do that) than keeping it dazed. Rickyvantof 11:00, 23 February 2008 (EST)

Hey tried your paragons bar in comparison to my warrior bar for my TA team, i still completly stand by my fact that my W/P bar is better than that one(although it isn't bad by any means, and i could see where other teams may be better with this one). I know ill get flamed for this and called a "nub" but i will try to explain my reasoning. First off the 25pc faster from aggressive just isn't as good as the 33pc from flail (also the speed loss doesn't matter much). Also occasionally i would ither forget or lose the abilty to upkeep aggressive refrain(i know thats my fault and it should never happen), and when i lost that this build went to hell fast. 2sec cast ended up just getting it inturupted repetativly, or end up with severe energy problems (yes i could cast it using a high set but it still drains a lot of energy). Next problem i had was the loss of enraging charge, a movment skill is definatly nice to have (especially when my bar has a cripple) and that 4-8 arenaline really speeds up your ability to apply daze and pressure. Anthem of flame isn't very helpful (on my team that uses 2 casters) and feels like it was added only so you would be able to precast refrain and apply your daze. This "tell" really ruined the bar when i fought teams with smart monks. As far as the DPS goes yours wins by around 15dps, but as far as overall team support and ability to shutdown a monk (what i use a bar like this for) your bar just seemed much more flimsy and unable to preform. (btw being forced to cast anthem in the middle of trying to shutdown a dazed monk blows) Can't think of much else to say (like armor penetration or 40al more or ability to cripple foes, bleed foes, burn foes [added into dps mentioned above alrdy]). Flame on thanks. I Heal If U Shutup 02:01, 24 February 2008 (EST)
 * Well, if you run it right, spamming GFtE on recharge, you have infinite energy (yes, infiniate) and the burning synergizes with your assassin as well. It shouldn't be a tell either. If you use it as soon as it is recharge it becomes a pressure skill since it is activating on two people. The fact that it works with the daze skill is just a bonus. It isn't necessarily that W/P is ZOMG EPIC FAIL. It's that if you run a paragon right, they are much better. Infinite energy and IAS, along with a nice spike and higher DPS is good. One of the main reasons I think you favor the W/P build to the Paragon primary one is because you have obviously been running the W/P much longer, so you have gotten use to it and learned all about it. It's like me. I love the Grenth's Grasp Assassin. I've been using it since it came out. Now I could run the Shattering assault sin, but I've played the GG sin so long and I've gotten so good at it that trading it in for something else is hard to get use to.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]The Gates  Assassin  02:49, 24 February 2008 (EST)

It is true that the warrior is much easier to run(wouldn't that be a plus?lol), and that could be why i like it more. I guess what really annoyed me was the paragons inabilty to cripple, or use a speed buff. Add in its 40 less armor, its slower IAS, and its inabilty to instant charge stunning through enraging charge and i just found a bar that is subbing all this flexability for a few extra DPS (and if u actually took a few seconds to spread bleeding even the DPS of the paragon is less). As for the anthem of flame synergising with my assasin, using anthem with 2 ppl able to use it actually lowers DPS (28x2 = 56 < 58DPS standard on your paragon). This "tell" is real, 25<33, bleeding and criplle spam > or = occasional DW, speed buff > none(plus instant 4-8 adrenaline), tell < no tell, 80-100 al > 60al (didn't count sheilds). G4tE is good emanagement, however it won't be able to give you "infiniate" energy. At most it will give you an extra 4 energy every 6-10 seconds, not bad at all but that wont allow you to spam harriers toss or reapply aggressive or conjure if they accidently go down without forcing you to play slow while waiting for energy to return(goes against what you said but hey try it). Add in the ability to lose conjure which then would make the warriors DPS more and you have my reasoning. I Heal If U Shutup 15:39, 24 February 2008 (EST)


 * FACT: If you think Spear Warriors are good, consider uninstalling. --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  15:41, 24 February 2008 (EST)

real mature lol, but yes i think "spear warriors" can be good when it the correct TA or RA team. I will not uninstall, but i will probably think you are foolish for bothering to post such an ignorant and closeminded statement without any testing or evidence to back it up. I Heal If U Shutup 15:51, 24 February 2008 (EST)


 * Easy =/= Better. infact it usually is the exact opposite. For instance, the cripshot ranger is hard as fuck to use perfectly, very few can. But when a good player gets on that it is almost a guaranteed win. Paragons can cripple people. But the thing is about that, So what? why do you, a ranged warrior need to cripple? If the sin has Siphon speed then there is no reason to take a cripple on him. They also do have speed buffs. As for armor, so what? you are not a big target in TA RA...anywhere. your monk, your mesmer, your sin, thats it. No one in their right mind would thing to try to kill the paragon first unless that's all there was there. The most powerful sin spike I kno can't kill a full health paragon in one chain. Also having 76 armor in the midline, is REALLY REALLY good. Sure 116 is better, but it isnt needed. Slower IAS, by 12% is nothing. There is still flight time. Ability to instant charge your elite is nice, but honestly, Paragons can do that as well. Flexibility? It has the ability to pressure, spike, daze, have constant IAS and with conjure flame the DPS is way higher. Bleeding isn't enough damage to make an effect, and since it has 3 adren cost, it is pretty difficult to get it up on everyone. If you want to spread degen then get a BA ranger or a MageBane.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]The Gates  Assassin  16:06, 24 February 2008 (EST)

I agree but your reasoning fails

 * Conjure flame alone raises your DPS high than warrior's strength does, so it is better at damage right off the bat Last i checked, strength didnt have a 45 recharge and couldnt be stripped. Strength gets better on higher AL foes, conjure gets weaker.
 * Aggressive refrain allows for constant IAS, just like the warrior only it doesn't move 33% slower, it just loses some armor, which isn't a big deal anyway. Actually, it turns the paragon into a squishy. Flail is 33% to agressives 25% and move speed matters alot less then armor loss, since nobody is kiting out of range of your ranged attacker.
 * Even further it goes to add anthem of flame to not only give the condition needed to daze the enemy, it also works so that you can cast anthem of flame, then use Stunning strike and both the burning and the daze will activate the warrior also has conditions to trigger stunning.
 * The warrior could also put in harriers and has better armor.
 * So this has more damage, a deep wound, a spike, burning, easier daze application, and better energy management due to leadership. deep wound is all it has. Eneergy is fine on both, daze is applied just as easily, etc.Bob fregman 16:18, 24 February 2008 (EST)
 * But it isn't. A monk can remove the bleeding before the DW is applied. The only way you can stop the paragon is if you block the attack. Strength barely raises your DPS, so what if it does more damage to higher AL targets? are you attacking warriors first on your team? No, lowest armor is always first unless they are at low health. 76 is only kinda sqiushy, the difference between 25% and 33% is minimal since there is still flight time. Better armor means nothing, DPS does. You have a monk for a reason. The warrior has nothing to manage energy, the paragon's energy is nearly infiniate. --[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  16:26, 24 February 2008 (EST)
 * The difference between 33 and 23% is big actually, due to the way speed buffs work. And no monk can remove bleeding fast enough.  at 33% spear attacks every 1 second.  Find me a commonly used condi removal that's fast enough to catch it and a monks whos just looking for a bleeding target so they can remove it as soon as bleeding is applied.  Neither char runs out of energy, so having infinite doesnt matter, only 2 of the wars skills need energy...Bob fregman 16:30, 24 February 2008 (EST)
 * Paras have slightly better DPS than spear warriors, but that's not the reason why people run paras instead of spear warriors. No one runs para's for pure DPS(melee have KDs, or omgwtfpwnage spikes, or condi immunity, or unblockability, or whatever). People run paras for their support skills and infinite energy. And, who really cares if your para has 86(76 if you're using survivor insignias) armor instead of 106/96? &mdash; Edru / QQ  16:33, 24 February 2008 (EST)
 * (EC)Infiniate energy allows you to take skills you normally can't. That warrior can't take harriers and Vicious because he doesn't have leadership. The paragon can.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  16:34, 24 February 2008 (EST)

Looks like i have opeaned up a hornets nest here lol, oh well about time. First off Edru is completly right, people run paragons for their support skills not pure DPS. I want people to look at this W/P in the same way, its not about pure damage as much as ability to fill its role and support the team. A W/P supports his team through crippling/bleeding opposing offensive players while shuting down a monk with daze and 33pc attack speed. A P/E supports his team through anthem of flame(meh imo) and shuting down a monk with daze and 25pc attack speed. The warrior however will be able to reapply his daze as soon as it ends or is removed, while the paragon will have stunning only half way charged. In this light you can see that the warrior will do its role better, but i shall go on. If we want to talk emanagement lets do it, both bars have fine emanagement (assuming neither spams harriers toss, or aggressive refrain doesn't end) but if a character dies the emanagement for the paragon is shot for a while while the warrior is right back into the fight. If we want to talk DPS the P/E outpaces the W/P by around 15DPS, but then again if it loses conjure it will have less DPS then the W/P. Id rather be able to apply daze 2times as often and provide snares than be able to use anthem of flame and get a few more DPS that is easy to lose. I wont even get into the fact that the warrior has 40al more, and can cover its daze with other conditions, or that the P/E has a tell befpre each daze. I Heal If U Shutup 19:11, 24 February 2008 (EST)


 * Ok I guess they are just meant for different things. It's like comparing Shadow prison with a GG sin. how about this build which is nearly the exact same thing:

[build prof=parag/any spearm=12+1+1 comman=8+1 leader=10+2][Vicious Attack][barbed spear][Maiming Spear][stunning strike][anthem of flame][go for the eyes][aggressive refrain][resurrection signet][/build] --<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  19:21, 24 February 2008 (EST)

Ill have to do some testing with this build before i say anything for sure, however, i would guess that this build will do less DPS then the W/P, will gain adrenaline slower then the W/P, and because of the loss of harriers will now spike slower and weaker then the W/P version. Of course since its a paragon primary that uses aggressive it will also still have a slower IAS and 40 less AL. I Heal If U Shutup 20:35, 24 February 2008 (EST)
 * Yours doesn't have a Deep wound, which pets it way behind in DPS.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  20:44, 24 February 2008 (EST)

After 3, 2 minute tests with each bar on master of damage i can tell you that the DPS of the W/P bar is higher than the Paragons bar by 12DPS or so. True the DW is impossible with the W/P bar, however it has 2 offensive spear attacks(instead of 1), a faster IAS, and armor penatration that still leads to an overall higher DPS. So as we can see the W/P will once again acomplish this role better then the paragon version simply because of a better IAS to use, and no need to waste 2 slots of his bar with shouts to make his IAS not fail. I Heal If U Shutup 20:58, 24 February 2008 (EST)
 * DW is 100 damage that the MoD is ignoring. It also is reducing overall healing on that target. He also isn't "wasting" two slots on shouts. Burning isn't a "waste" especially when it's happening on two different chars. a Guaranteed Crit + DW isn't a "Waste". --[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  21:30, 24 February 2008 (EST)

That anthem of flame IMO is a waste as it slows down damage (it does less then the DPS), maybe the DW doesn't register on master of damage i guess i am not certain on that (although i can tell you eviserate does more damage then executioners on master of damage which is strange bc eviserate has a smaller damage bonus). Maybe the DW doesn't get counted by master (i don't think this is the case BTW) and that is why the paragon version has a smaller DPS then the W/P. Even if that is true i still have to say that the 40al less, loss of instant 4-8 adren, armor penetration, lower IAS, and no harriers for spikes still would make the W/P better in my book unlease the DW upped the DPS of the peragon by around 25DPS. I Heal If U Shutup 23:02, 24 February 2008 (EST)
 * Instant DW, damage and critical hit is. Also if you take the Centeron..or however your spell that insignia you have + 10 armor 5/8 of the time. 5/7 if it's a spell(Spells never hit the hands). Btw, indent every time you post with the ":" at the start. makes it easier to read. So after this one, put :: and so on. --[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  23:20, 24 February 2008 (EST)
 * centurions insignea? What shout do you have on that bar that is going to stay on you? Certainly not G4te or anthem of flame. If you really want to go the path of armor insigneas (meh) then couldn't you take the armor plus 20 if str>12 insignea for the warrior.. As for the "guaranteed instant DW" its not guaranteed in fact its slightly better than flipping a coin at 57% chance, it's not instant as spear attacks take time to use/travel (more then harriers). Also as far as the 57% chance of a dw being worth 40al less, loss of instant 4-8 adren, armor penetration, lower IAS, and no harriers for spikes you must be crazy. Especially when in my TA build i alrdy have a character that can apply repetative DW's that are unblockable further lowering the need of DW being used on this character. Logically i don't think there is anyway you could refute that the W/P is better in small arenas that have < 3 people who will use G4te and anthem of flame which is where i am talking about using these builds. I Heal If U Shutup 23:44, 24 February 2008 (EST)
 * It's echos too. You are forgetting that spear mastery gives you about a 22% chance to get a critical hit so its really around 60..70ish % chance. I also just tried my paragon build...tbh I got bored and stopped xD. Also pick an arguement: are we talking about this as a solo build in RA or in your team build? --[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  23:51, 24 February 2008 (EST)
 * Well the build i have posted atm is for RA and TA hence i tend to talk about it in both sences, true i didn't take the inherent 22pc crit chance into account but even so i don't think the DW even if it was 100pc chance is worth that 40al loss, Lower IAS, instant 4-8 adren loss, armor penetration loss, loss of harriers for spikes, and less DPS. I Heal If U Shutup 01:17, 25 February 2008 (EST)

@Bob: Conjures ignore armor now.<font color="Black"> &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 19:24, 24 February 2008 (EST)
 * Rly?--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  19:51, 24 February 2008 (EST)
 * Even though the damage type is "fire," this extra damage is unaffected by increased armor against elemental or fire damage. Epic win tbh.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  19:53, 24 February 2008 (EST)

Starting New Section
I'm going to run a bunch of tests on spike capabilities, ability to keep conditions up, over all pressure and energy management.--<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  03:53, 25 February 2008 (EST)

Ok Lemme split this up:

Warrior/Paragon
Overall Damage: About 7600 damage both times that I did it.

Spike Capabilities: Using Blazing + harriers + Stunning came out to be 250 average damage over the couse of 3 seconds.

Overall Pressure: The Daze never came down.

Energy management: I was forced to use Zealous to be able to spam attacks.

Critical Hits: 53 for normal attacks. Critical Hits were not common.

Notes: Extremely easy to keep the daze up. The strength did NOT make a noticable difference. Very rarely criticals happened during attack skills so the strength never really got to shine.

Paragon/Warrior
Overall damage: About 7500 damage both times that I did it.

Spike Capabilities: Using Vicious + Anthem + GftE + Stunning came out to about 170 damage + 100 from the DW. (270 damage)

Overall Pressure: The Daze had about a 5ish second cool down.

Energy Management: I could take vampiric without any trouble at all.

Critical hits: 56 damage for base hits. On demand with GftE's Spam, however without it the criticals were not much different from the warrior.

Notes: Shorter, yet sometimes stronger spike since the spike for this is more reliable (Nearly always a critical hit).

Conjure Para
Overall Damage: About 8100 damage both times that I did it.

Spike Capabilities: Using Vicious + Anthem + GftE + Stunning + Harriers I came out to 250..280 damage + 100 damage from Dw = 350..380 damage.

Overall Pressure: 5 second cool downs or more for daze.

Energy Management: Slightly harder than with the other paragon, about equal to the warrior.

Critical Hits: Same as the other Paragon.

Notes: Explosive amounts of damage. Huge spikes when needed.

--<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  04:27, 25 February 2008 (EST)

Good tests, it's nice to see someone who actually thinks before they post(well now at least, read your main page on why paragons were better now and you will probably feel foolish heh). TBH from your data alone i would have to say the W/P (looking at the first 2 builds) won mainly bc imo it was able to keep a player daze locked more often, while at the same time providing more DPS and a faster attack speed for faster inturuption. Sure its spike was 20dmg smaller, but its spike would have been faster as well right? (at 33pc 2 spear attacks + harriers = 2.5seconds vs at 25pc 2 spear attacks = 2.2ish seconds plus antehem =1 =3) Also if the DW is provided from a different player on say a TA team wouldn't the W/P bar then be the one to use as the spike would be 80 larger? If so doesn't this mean that the W/P could technically fit a build and be viable? You did mention energy management as an issue for the W/P but if you use harriers conservatively its not a problem at all really. As far as strenght not mattering at all i could probably say that your DPS chart seems to show the opposite, or that you were fighting a 60al target but it's not important to me at all strenght is taken more for the skills you can use then for that small bit of extra damage. You also didn't mention that 40 extra armor of the warrior which makes it even more worthy of use (or the 33pc movement loss lets be fair heh [although it never bothers me heh]) all in all a decent summary, my tests came out with the paragon having a slightly larger loss of damage, but i didn't use a vampiric spear so maybe that explains the small difference. I Heal If U Shutup 13:08, 25 February 2008 (EST)

Bottom Line
If you use a Spear Warrior, like Spear Warriors, or think they're good, then uninstall Guild Wars. The end. -- Guild of  Deals  18:08, 25 February 2008 (EST)
 * That's a bit harsh...I'd say keep playing guild wars if you run these builds. In fact, play more than ever.  Just be on the other team :P  Oh, and one of the biggest reasons W/P spear warriors are bad is because a warrior with an axe/sword/hammer is better.  For anti-caster pressure, KD works just as well, if not better than, daze.  I think that is a comparison that should be accounted for, along with the comparison to the paragon bar.  I've played monk agains stunning strike warriors and paragons, and the paragons are usually a much greater threat (and can definately maintain daze).  And deep wound is incredibly vital to a pressure build as well as a spike one. Dejh 18:52, 25 February 2008 (EST)
 * You didn't read or learn a thing lol(god i want to flame you back lol). I won't bother explaining anything because its all right before you on this thread, however, i will say this you can't spam a kd non stop every 2 seconds for 10minutes with daze you can. Also there are many very easy ways around KD chaining that are brought commonly in TA such as AoS, Ward of stability, and Balanced stance. No good ways to stop a never ending daze lock from a charaters with permanent 33pc IAS. Anyways point of my comment here is more to show you just how retarted you look because you clearly didn't read the above information. I Heal If U Shutup 01:30, 26 February 2008 (EST)
 * 1)I read it all. 2)That wasn't a flame.  3)With any halfway decent hammer build you can KD lock the target for at least 9 seconds, easily enough to get a kill.  Even a shock axe can KD lock a target for 6 seconds.(don't forget stonefist insignia)  4)Condition spam happens to be easier to stop than KD spam.(off monk heals, draw, keep in mind you do NOT have an instant daze cover)  If they have WoS or AoS and no MBaS or draw, they are just bad anyway, so you should have no problem winning.  5)The point of MY comment was to point out something DIFFERENT from the above arguement that everyone seemed to be missing.  I also forgot to add that axe warriors can take d-chop.  D-chop ONE WoH and the game is over 99% of the time.  I have been on the sending and receiving end of this many times, so this is not simply theory-craft.  Spear warriors may look decent from their DPS ratings, etc, but in reality they just aren't as good as other options.  In the future please try to consider what I am saying before flaming. Dejh 08:46, 26 February 2008 (EST)

The Real Bottom Line (s)

 * Deep wound is a vital condition and should be on every melee and paragon bar (Ranger is an acception since they can't and are only for utility).
 * A Knockdown is more pressure than daze. In daze you can so something about it, in a KD there isn't shit you can do.
 * Paragons have infinate energy, allowing you to take vampiric spears and spam attacks much more than the Warrior.
 * Having 76..86 armor isn't a big deal.
 * A tiny bit more IAS doesn't matter.
 * Daze lock isn't vital, if it is up 80% of the time then you have all you need.
 * W/P doesn't "Epic Fail"
 * I have to rewrite this whole fucking thing =/

--<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  23:29, 25 February 2008 (EST)

Jesus no way YOU (the one who tested the bars, and have been repeatedly forced to admit W/P can be better then P/* primaries in some builds) can possibly say that. Do you have any reasons listed there why they are better? HELL NO! Jesus all you did was list all the ways W/P are BETTER, and follow it up by saying the POINT of the build isn't important. You then went along with that retarted KD line as if you were retarted and i was pretty sure before you wern't. Also btw you still have posted up on another thread this quote "warrior paragons epic fail". Let me tell you why your few points of logic fail here. I guess im just mad because at the end of the day even after being forced to realise just how wrong you are, after doing tests that prove a warrior can do the job better, you still sell out and just say yeah go KD people like a real player should or uninstall. Its sad because you actually bothered testing and everything, acting as if it would actually make a difference if you found out you were wrong. O well ill see you in TA, got me another 40+ wins running this again today. Im done with talking to idiots on wiki have a nice time in middleschool. I Heal If U Shutup 01:30, 26 February 2008 (EST)
 * "Paragons have infinate energy, allowing you to take vampiric spears and spam attacks much more than the Warrior" weird because their DPS is still less even with vampiric and spaming attacks...Doesn't that make this statistic irrelevant?
 * "Deep wound is a vital condition and should be on every melee and paragon bar" this isn't mellee or a paragon. Add the fact that another player in your team has the DW covered making yours useless...


 * And what you think the sins DW won't be drawn? You think that you are forced to be on the same exact target as the sin? One of the biggest things that paragons have the ability to do is throw around DWs like nothing! It's invalueable. Less DPS? That is one of the reasons that I got why the numbers kept on coming out a few hundred less or equal to the W/P:Deep wounds. If you factor that in it adds a ton more damage, I got out one at least ever 10 seconds, over the course of 3 minutes. Although the base damage is about equal between the two, the DW wins it. THAT is why I'm saying that paragons are better. Also yes infinate energy did that, if I didn't have infinate energy I could never spam that many DWs. When in that post did I say go uninstall? You focus on the little things your bar has over the paragon and completely ignore the major facts that make the paragon way better. Highschool btw =P--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  06:10, 26 February 2008 (EST)
 * Why would a sins DW guaranteed get drawn and yours not(biased reasoning)? As a monk, and a player for many years i can honestly say the "ability to throw DW around" is useless except on a spike. Applying DW to a full target and then hopping targets doesn't do anything. If you facter in DW's you will get a ton more damage.. not really. I guess you consider "daze" and "armor" and "IAS" little things. If the point of the bar is primarily to shutdown a key caster with daze and inturuption while offering a support on a true spike the W/P bar wins as it can accomplish the daze lock better, while offering a support spike that is faster and stronger. I know i said before i was done talking but now i truly am. Have fun in high school heh i know i did. I Heal If U Shutup 12:20, 26 February 2008 (EST)
 * I suggest you take your arguments for W/P to the top 10 guilds and tell them they suck for running primary paragons. Lord of all tyria 12:23, 26 February 2008 (EST)
 * (EC)He is right that throwing DW around is pressure. If you apply deep wound across their team, the monk will be pressured to remove it.  A charachter with deep wound on them is easier to kill, harder to heal, and the condition usually indicates spikes.  Throwing DW on random targets may seems useless, but it causes their monks to waste energy on protting/removing targets that you do not intent to spike right away.  And if you consider instant, armor ignoring, 100 damage from deep wound a "little thing", daze certainly is as well.  The IAS is only slightly better for the warrior than the paragon, which makes a slight difference, but not a big enough one to make W/P better, the armor should make almost no difference, as paragons are never targeted first.  If you want pure shutdown of a caster, the best ways to do that are with a domination mesmer, or a KD lock.  Daze can be annoying, but is much less deadly than domination spells or knockdowns for shutdown.  Say, you want the monk shutdown so you can spike an off-healer.  Daze does ok, but unless you have a locust's fury assassin on the monk, they can still get anti-spike prots off(1/2 second casts are only slightly more vulnerable to interrupt than 1/4).  KD stops any casts, whether they want to or not.  It requires timing, but chaining KD skills is a more effective shutdown than daze.  W/P is decent, in the same way golden skull strike is; it works, but is not worth bringing because there simply are better options. Dejh 12:43, 26 February 2008 (EST)
 * Couldn't have said it better myself tbh. What is easier as a monk to defend against? Two people dying at the same time, one being you. Or having two people attacking you? The first one causes you to panic, the second calls for a quick gaurdian, maybe an SB. --[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  14:40, 26 February 2008 (EST)


 * I think alot of people who read the talk pages for his builds are going to end up voting them all down, or "Other" category at best, at very least in part because of his shitty attitude towards any criticism. BTW I can get 20+ wins in a row with 3 Spearchuckers using Enraged Lunge and a monk.  So what?  It just means I beat a whole slew of crappy teams.  76.89.81.150 22:44, 26 February 2008 (EST)