User talk:Sorrow/Teh 2 Man Necroway

discuss, constructive crticisms are welkum. =] --Sorrow 12:13, 26 September 2008 (EDT)

My suggestion
Variants

For areas with low healing, I would replace Soul Bind with Feast of Corruption. Reckless haste would fuel it too. As for equipment, I would give them all 40/40 sets except for the ones with item spells, of course.

Other than that, not fully sure about rage, but I find it nice to have with. You could possibly put in Defile Defenses again instead in areas with a lot of blocking, though I just doubt its usefulness in most parts of PvE. Though I must admit that I haven't played melee in quite a while so I can't really remember if there really is that much blocking for it to be more useful than rage. Other than some parts in nightfall that is with all the fricking rangers blocking you.

Humans

 —  Sazzy Pooh 13:10, 26 Sep 2008 
 * Okay good points Sazzy :3 Though, I wouldnt give up RH really because it not only can be used to foel foc but also to maximise SS damage and protect your party from the nasty hard mode melee, so in case we keep AR it should replace the second rip enchantment imho. I would chuck FoC and PainoD to variants, for now, because one is too conditional and other one is outpowered by SB in areas with any kind of heal (atleast in my view). Also, I have seen that you suggest DH for hex removal on the Bomber in return having PS onthe bomber. What concerns me here is that heroes tend to synch PS and WoH very poorly, the will not devide PS for over 50% heals and WoH for under 50% heals, and looking at that kind of heal fail doesnt really make me happy. :S What do you think? :3 --Sorrow 15:27, 26 September 2008 (EDT)
 * RH is still in there ;o) Just on the soul binder cause of attrib spreads. With both Ether nightmare & RH I think you'd be able to pull it off all the time though. But soul bind is indeed pretty sweet, especially on destroyers etc. Though I seem to recall some areas where the healing was kept to a minimal. That's why I proposed the variant. I didn't know the heroes were bad with the ps/woh combo, i just chucked in a redbar skill i liked and put another hex removal on the bomber (2mm's and blood of the master makes me QQ) Feel free to suggest another redbar skill though. I just felt that only taking woh would not have been enough when a lot of damage was taken by the team.  —  Sazzy Pooh [[Image:PinkNautical.jpg]]17:38, 26 Sep 2008 
 * Well, they should synch woh and ps better after the recent update on ps ai but I still doubt that cast-ps-on-near-dead-ally problem doesnt exist anymore, and microing would seem to much of a hassle for some and woh healing is enough of a claim for not confusing your hero imho. As for RH I know that its on the bar but id rather have it on SS, reason is simple; with the main bar with SB and SS necores SB has no synergy with RH but SS does, lets imagine that SB that has RH dies, SS nec loses its buffing synergy with RH untill SB nec is rezzed. Having blood of the master is indeed fishy even if one of your MM runs high lvl minions, it can aswell kill the MM and that sucks so you are right about that. Anyway I thinked of some changes to MMs; Discord could have low level Minions instead so that bomber doesnt get lost in the back as much always casting nova on them, oh and, dont you think that Infuse/Feast on low level MM would be better than Xiko/Feast combo after all, I can give up Aegis chain for it, cuz Aegis chains in pve are not really needed tbh? --Sorrow 04:44, 27 September 2008 (EDT)

Keeping that big rant you just made in mind, what about:

Another death pact seemed useful, though risky as it's on a healer. But I can't say I've had a problem with it so far. Putting it on the mm's wldve been even more stupid so... You can still disable it and micro it when the other ressers are dead  —  Sazzy Pooh 07:02, 27 Sep 2008 
 * But...but... I wasnt ranting at u QQ --Sorrow 10:18, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Yes u were :P and I rather hear what you think of the new version tbh  —  Sazzy Pooh [[Image:PinkNautical.jpg]]11:03, 27 Sep 2008 
 * NOEZ! D: Plz dont haet meh Sazzy QQ *crys* --Sorrow 13:53, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
 * looks pretty good better than just having sabway twice but now you need to change to a proper build lol (i have a decent team template thing on my page in u want lol) gl [[Image:That Twin Tom sig.jpg|19px]] That   Twin   Tom  15:16, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Thanks =] and yeah I gunna sort out propper templates soon aswell, also check out the revamp. ;) --Sorrow 15:18, 27 September 2008 (EDT)

Major Revamp
mostly on what Sazzy has said, check it out pl0x. :3 --Sorrow 15:17, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Recovery feels redundant when only minions have conditions. 2 spirits on one char is a bit over the top too imho. The hero will spend 7.5 seconds just casting those spirits, not healing the party meanwhile. This could be a potential problem. Not much else too say as I don't feel especially bright right now.  —  Sazzy Pooh [[Image:PinkNautical.jpg]]19:50, 27 Sep 2008 

I feel like this would work out a lot better tbh:

/ The Feast Bomber

/ The Discord Hybrid

 —  Sazzy Pooh 20:00, 27 Sep 2008 

Human necs n stuff
[build prof=N/A name="AP Nec" sou=10 cur=11 dead=10][Assassin's Promise]["Finish Him!"]["You Move Like a Dwarf!"][Necrosis][Mark of Pain][Enfeebling Blood][Optional][Optional][/build]

It's EotN double rep this weekened so go get your ranks up =p The 2nd human with this build should drop the points from curses and spec into death for Shambling horror. Rend could be used for one of the empty slots, then you could drop Rip from the other nec.

As for the N/Mo healer, I've never actually never tried a WoH hybrid. What I always ran was a full prot nec or an HB nec. Even at 0 divine favor, it can be kept up 100% and you get 220hp+ heals from Jamei's Gaze. Since it's a full caster team, Healing Whisper would be a really good skill. For a full prot nec, SoR and Divert are good. If you run Divert, it'd be fine to remove the hex removal from the other necs. I'd leave in Cure Hex at least. Last time I checked, heroes almost never used Heal Party. Dunno if that's changed. Dwayna's Sorrow is a decent replacement.

Not sure if you wanna keep Soul Bind/Jagged/SS, but 4 Discords would get you much better results and make it alot easier for the human necs to trigger AP - You'll be gettin about 700+ dmg (from the team) on every target with a really fast recharge. SS isn't as good as it seems, even in HM. Soul Bind is ok, but it's often better to just force kills on monks rather than punishing their heals - it's just faster and you won't have to worry about your elite being useless in most areas. One of the AP necs could use Mark of Death if enemy healers are a prob. Also, having multiple Necs with Shambling Horror steamrolls so hard. P A R A S I T I C 17:27, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Wrong. I think there's enough minions when there's 2 heroes already supplying them. So no, the human should not take shamblings. Rip > rend too. This is pve, not pvp. Full prot or full healing isn't that awesome either. Hybrids rule. There's often enough hexes too for 2 hex removals to be useful, so keeping both divert and cure is win. Both Jagged and SS are awesome elites tbh. SS makes for awesome AoE dmg, if you disagree you should uninstall. As the way it is now, the team steamrolls over the entire enemy team. You would apparently want to turn it into a spike teambuild that takes out one by one. This would be counter productive. Soul bind will prove to be useful in a lot of areas (esp newer ones like GWEN), and in those where there's little to no healing you could still take FoC. Mark of death is a pretty crappy skill, btw. Too lazy to read the rest you said. As a side note, this is obviously a 2 person sabway. By limiting the human players to certain things, like in your bar, an N/A, you are lowering the universality & effectiveness of the whole build  —  Sazzy Pooh [[Image:PinkNautical.jpg]]19:50, 27 Sep 2008 


 * I suggested Rend over Rip because AP will constantly be recharging it. I've had much success with full prot necs. It's also what we use for DoA all the time. Mark of Death is to deal with enemy healers - this build is already using one of it's elites just to counter healers so if you really want to, MoD is an unelite way to deal with them though I actually wouldn't bring either. FoC isn't an option - it's a horrible skill.

The whole setup I suggested is in no way lacking AoE. The player is constantly recharging MoP and with lots of minions runnin around, you'll get tons of AoE. Having multiple necs spec'd into Death means more Putrid Bile for even more AoE. More minions = more body blocks, more damage. The single-target damage is just icing on the cake. The damage on SS honestly isn't that impressive. It's ok in the hands of a human, but were talkin heroes here - they cast it on whoever they want. They won't always cast it on the best targets.

I actually don't see the point of a 2man Sabway when you could take advantage of things like Discord. I've ran SS for years and when it comes to overall damage, I can absolutely guarantee you that an AP MoP nec will outdamage it just about everywhere. This is coming from personal experience. I also think you're underestimating what an AP nec could do with Shambling Horrors - when it's being recharged on every death, that's basically an unelite Jagged Bones right there, except you get also acess to massive single-target damage.

As for the human builds, if you're not gonna abuse how powerful AP is, then you're probably better off using SS on one of the players cause heroes really arn't very good at it. P A R A S I T I C 20:23, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Players' builds are supposed to be random. That's the whole point of the idea. You should basically be able to just flag the heroes in a mob and watch how they kill it without ever doing anything. When this is achieved, the team build works. You can then spread it around giving it to all kinds of people and let them use it as they want and play the build they want in combination, without having to worry about anything  —  Sazzy Pooh [[Image:PinkNautical.jpg]]20:37, 27 Sep 2008 


 * oh shi-.....I assumed the 2 empty player were supposed to be necs when I saw the human builds on this page. Well that changes everything. I'd still actually recommend some more Discords though, even without the player assisting in meeting it's reqs. Heroes are suprisingly good with it. You got 4 necs that can bring the hexes/conditions needed for it. Most classes have easy access to them if needed. Jagged is a good elite, but when you got 3 other necs with Shambling, it could use it's elite for somethin else. I'd still leave Soul Bind out of the main build. It's a good variant, especially against Destroyers, but the thing I have in mind is how bad most enemy healers are in PvE - the builds they use are often horrible and it often doesn't take much effort to bring them down. If the 2 players are willing to play rather than making the heroes do all the work, it should be cake most of the time ;) Again this is why I'm suggesting Discord - if you went and let the necs do all the work, they'll be spitting out tons of damage on their own. One prob with SS is it requires the target to be alive. If the target with SS keeps dying, then you've just wasted your elite. When it comes to heroes, they don't know these things. Both the player and the heroes could easily accidentally kill the SS'd target. You also gotta keep other things in mind, like what if they cast it on a target not adjacent to anything, etc. While stuff does bunch up in PvE alot, but there's tons of areas where they don't. Heroes are a big fan of using skills as soon as they're recharged without making good use of them. Another advantage of Discord is that being able to take out specific targets fast is a defense in itself. P A R A S I T I C 21:03, 27 September 2008 (EDT)

Things that (still) concern me
First thing is that you should have 3 soul reaping on feasting bomber for it to be worthwile on him (you hit the breakpoint), otherwise having it on resto might be better, that leads to a problem of not-having-enough-attribute-points-for-sb to work. Another thing is that you might have Mingston ashes for further defense on sb nec because these two hexers tend to run ehead of the group to /hex stuff, mingston might shine in that case imho. So what if, we give our Feast Bomber Vengeance as second in-battle rez/dp prevention, mingston's ashes to sb instead of fomf, and fomf to resto as he might be most well suited (and protected) to handle it, what do you think? Everything else is wonderful and thanks for fixing some stuff rly niec of you Sazzy. :3 -- Sorrow 'Mc' Sorrowmancer  08:40, 28 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Nah you can pump up soul reaping more than just 3. Just need a standard 3 attrib split. The troubling thing about the ashes is that I'm afraid the hero will run off into the mob too much to use it, rather than just dropping them when being under too much pressure. With a 20 second recharge and a max of 7 seconds of blindness, that kind of feels like a waste since they're missing with their hits half of the time anyway due to reckless haste. Another note to make about that is that you'd have to put FomF somewhere else. Somewhere else would probably be the restorer, which again leads to your healer spending time with ressing and killing himself off by half instead of healing the rest of the party. So I personally think it's better that FomF stays on the soulbinder. If anyone sees vengeance in there, they will rate it down faster than you can imagine tbh. So I would keep that out. If you want, I will write up an article tonight and put those things as variants. Other users can then make some suggestions or talk about experience with certain skills, as I've personally never used blind was mingson in pve for one.  —  Sazzy Pooh [[Image:PinkNautical.jpg]]09:43, 28 Sep 2008 

It's PvE... God box    09:49, 28 September 2008 (EDT)


 * ^. Also, Heroes are rather awesome with Blind Was Mingsong. Any physical enters the range and there it goes. Yay. -- ›[[Image:Many srs beans.png|Srs Bean Mafia.]] Srs Beans R Srs  09:50, 28 September 2008 (EDT)

oh well in that case, let's just make it

Any/Any Two Players

Any/Any Six Heroes

Saying "it's just pve" is a bad mentality tbh. Thinking about shit before actually submitting it, like we are doing now, is what a lot of users on this wiki should learn. So don't come here with the "it's only pve" bullshit tbh. Anyway, Since beans seems confident heroes are good with BwM, I'll adjust it and see what Sorrow thinks about it later. Unless it's sarcasm and my detector is broken —  Sazzy Pooh 09:56, 28 Sep 2008 
 * omg, HATERZ! +  X i  V   10:02, 28 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Well I personally had no problem with Mingson either, heroes are infact won derful at using it. -- Sorrow 'Mc' Sorrowmancer  11:51, 28 September 2008 (EDT)

The Restorer
Change it to WoR instead of XW. Hero's have problems using Xinrae's Weapon at the correct times, and can't use it properly.  Ŀ¥ЅЅΔΝ ● 55!  11:58, 28 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Apparently a similar conversation has been held here. People stated there that they use is like they use vengeful weapon, which seems to be good enough? I haven't really looked at how heroes use it, but I have noticed it found its way into triple necro vanquish. If they really were that bad at using it, I think someone wldve reverted it by now ?  —  Sazzy Pooh [[Image:PinkNautical.jpg]]12:15, 28 Sep 2008 
 * I've asked around and everyone says they spam it like fuck. Spamming a good skill is good.  — <small style="font-family:Verdana;font-variant: small-caps;"> Sazzy Pooh [[Image:PinkNautical.jpg]]12:41, 28 Sep 2008 
 * Well, in the case of XW on heroes in PvE...As long as they spam it, it is OK. =] -- Sorrow 'Mc' Sorrowmancer  13:43, 28 September 2008 (EDT)