Archive talk:Me/any VoR Mesmer

general VoR mesmer since we have loads of them around. -- Frosty  05:33, 20 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Observant Frosty is observant. Are you just going around and like, looking for non-commented Mcbuilds?  And yeah, this needs WELL.  Mr.   Big  05:34, 20 September 2008 (EDT)
 * No, since there is already 2 vetted, and like a thousand floating around, I thought I would make a general one since the differences don't warrent new builds. -- Frosty [[Image:Mini england.jpg|19px]] 05:36, 20 September 2008 (EDT)

I use for RA, it wtfpwns there. Brandnew. 05:39, 20 September 2008 (EDT)
 * I might have Sig of Hum over Drain E though. Can't recall. Brandnew.  05:40, 20 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Well done, add more variants plzkthxbai i gotta doggy walk -- Frosty [[Image:Mini england.jpg|19px]] 05:44, 20 September 2008 (EDT)
 * omg stop making these!! [[Image:That Twin Tom sig.jpg|19px]] That  Twin   Tom  14:39, 20 September 2008 (EDT)
 * oh lol does it go back into testing once merged? [[Image:That Twin Tom sig.jpg|19px]] That  Twin   Tom  14:40, 20 September 2008 (EDT)
 * It's a new build comprised of all the variants from the other VoR bars, they're too similiar to warrent new builds, so I thought I would make a generalised one. -- Frosty [[Image:Mini england.jpg|19px]] 14:42, 20 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Too many optionals, diversion has to be on main bar anyways. (Empathy>Backfire)=autattack-- Shadow [[Image:Relyk Sig.gif]] 14:47, 20 September 2008 (EDT)
 * It really depends what team you are in, something having Backfire over diversion works because your basically killing the monks yourself. -- Frosty [[Image:Mini england.jpg|19px]] 15:22, 20 September 2008 (EDT)

Ignorance
Maybe? Moloch 15:19, 20 September 2008 (EDT)
 * no-- Shadow [[Image:Relyk Sig.gif]] 15:19, 20 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Explain? Moloch 15:21, 20 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Ignorance is bad. The sigs Monks would use is Rejuve and Devotion, both of which aren't that common. Anyway, if a Monk is forced to only use Sigs, then I'm pretty sure you've shut them down enough. --[[Image:GoD_Hammer_and_Sickle.jpg|19px]]  Guild  of   Deals   15:22, 20 September 2008 (EDT)
 * I guess that's right. Moloch 15:26, 20 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Resurrection signet + RA = lols?--72.189.85.47 15:40, 20 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Dshot, you should take it on every single RA bar. Brandnew.  15:41, 20 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Dshot monk WTFBQSAUCEPWN justing6 04:28, 21 September 2008 (EDT)

Cover hex? moush 04:44, 24 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Wastrel's Worry? -- Frosty [[Image:Mini england.jpg|19px]] 08:19, 24 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Doesn't work on monks. They cast holy veil on themselves to remove VoR, it ends WW then they remove VoR. And anyone else who uses a skill. [[Image:mightymouse.gif|25px]] moush 19:56, 24 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Drain Enchantment? Don't be dumb? -- Frosty [[Image:Mini england.jpg|19px]] 02:41, 25 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Wow, you're bad. WW isn't a cover hex. [[Image:mightymouse.gif|25px]] moush 18:57, 25 September 2008 (EDT)
 * I know it doesn't act as a cover hex, but if they have off monk hex removal they will remove WW not VoR, so even though it makes for even bigger pressure it acts as a cover for VoR too. -- Frosty [[Image:Mini england.jpg|19px]] 02:00, 26 September 2008 (EDT)
 * WW works as a cover hex in this case especially if the monk is pre-veiled, because I know I sometimes go to strip the veil and WW is put on right when I strip veil. Annoys the crap outta me... --Link4all 22:12, 30 November 2008 (EST)

I like this better
Someone got rid of backfire and empathy finally.-- Shadow 22:20, 24 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Well, it's still there, but in the optionals now :P.Pika Fan [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]] 22:27, 24 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Backfire + VoR is fucking strong. -- Frosty [[Image:Mini england.jpg|19px]] 02:42, 25 September 2008 (EDT)
 * yh lol but better to altenate cause NO-ONE is gonna cast through both and/or backfire and lol this is merged from about 4/5 builds ;) and this time its great rather than other or good lol [[Image:That Twin Tom sig.jpg|19px]] That  Twin   Tom  12:57, 25 September 2008 (EDT)
 * NO-ONE? I put both on a guy in Jade Quarry last week and he not only cast through both, but did it three times and died. It was awesome.  :-)  --Aubee91 18:08, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I can cast just fine with Backfire on if I use Prot Spirit/Holy Veil. Diversion makes me think twice much more often.  68.51.95.206 19:03, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Agreed I also think that Empathy and Backfire should be as optional. Here is my favourite version of this build, some may say it lacks focus but I think its great since it can handle many different situations.

One way to play it is to first cast VoR on some foes then go for blackout on their monk that way enemies usually think they can rely on their monk so the keep going and ignores VoR. Another way is to use blackout in the downtime of VoR to focus on a single foe. WW and Power Spike Synergies great together. AI and Deep Freeze will provide more than enough energy to sustain the build also is very useful against runners or melee attackers--√ iktor (contribs) 08:22, 29 September 2008 (EDT)

HB Tag
This build should have an HB tag... It's awesome there since heroes tend to spam skills and kill themselves by doing so. With Backfire and Empathy it can easily solo things like R/P, E/D etc. Since flagging makes heroes ball you can get VoR on 3 heroes for even more damage! Ironboot 16:05, 18 October 2008 (EDT)

to much hexremoval in hb Illoyon 22:18, 21 October 2008 (EDT)


 * wrong.. This does work owns em so hard and heroes usually balls Massive  [[Image:Image-Massive Sig.jpg|19px]] 10:26, 27 November 2008 (EST)

Counter?
Though not really a counter, it might be useful to note that Wastrel's Worry causes more damage than VoR, and therefore using a skill when under the effects of both of them can be advisable. Lazuli 16:07, 26 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Not necessarily, there's also Diversion, and the chance that you interrupt a spell. You could also stack Backfire or Empathy on your target, so it really depends on the situation, tbh. ــмıкε  нaшк  16:44, 26 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Yeah, I guess. It just seems to me that in low level pvp a lot of people just panic when a huge stack of purple icons lands on them.  Lazuli 17:04, 26 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Especially if you're playing a Monk or without one. XD ــмıкε  нaшк  17:05, 26 October 2008 (EDT)

Why is Diversion in there?
Is this seriously meant to be a stand mesmer build? If not, why is Diversion in there? Lutz 02:54, 5 November 2008 (EST)
 * Probably because Diversion is one of the best skills in the game. I am going to go with that. - Misery  Is  Friendly  [[image:Misery Dog obaby.gif|19px]] 03:15, 5 November 2008 (EST)
 * Tbh, this write-up sucks. Two optionals (which means nobody knows what to bring in each arena because the list of possible skills is three pages long) and diversion (which is never run in GvG or HA hexway). - Auron 23:13, 10 November 2008 (EST)
 * Wow I am not keeping up with gvg if Diversion sucks there. <--fail comment :P-- Shadow [[Image:Relyk Sig.gif]] 02:49, 11 November 2008 (EST)
 * To be honest, Diversion is amazing in TA on this bar and I would say this bar sees more use in TA than in GvG. - Misery  Is  Friendly  [[image:Misery Dog obaby.gif|19px]] 03:14, 11 November 2008 (EST)
 * I rewrote it, Diversion is hawt but should be left as two optionals until unless there's a general consensus it should be on main bar.-- Shadow [[Image:Relyk Sig.gif]] 03:17, 11 November 2008 (EST)
 * In my experience, when pressuring monks, Diversion makes an excellent cover hex if you can get it on fast enough. Unless they use Holy Veil, their hex removal is gone for almost a minute. Then they are easy prey to VoR. This is AB advice, mind you. -- thirty9th  02:03, 30 November 2008 (EDT)
 * I don't often bring Diversion anymore just because of Contagion Bombers (and there are a LOT of them, especially on weekends, which is when I usually play), Blinding Powder just strips it without causing a recharge delay, so it's better to take more enchant stripping. During weekdays I usually see more diverse opponents and then Diversion is more useful.  --False Prophet 15:39, 9 December 2008 (EST)

Here are some tips:
 * 1. You don't need a cover hex, you already have a good one on your bar already (Wastrel's Worry).
 * 2. Diversion just doesn't find a place on the bar. Your bar is already incredibly compressed, and your primary goal is to deal armor-ignoring damage & pressure to the other team.  Most skills you need to shut down don't need to be shut down for very long for your team to score a kill - you just need to interrupt it once, maybe twice (e.g. Word of Healing and Guardian).  The bar doesn't provide for long-term pressure, it's primarily for pushing solo monks.
 * 3. Diversion is not as effective on split as many other skills would be. If you're running this bar at the flag stand in GvG, I hope you're running a lot more hexes than this.  Lutz 01:24, 18 December 2008 (EST)
 * Diversion should pretty much be a given for AB; Wastrel's Worry is so common now that it's dodged, i.e., they wait for it to end then quickly remove your main hex. Try covering Diversion with Wastrel's Worry (you can fit both on this bar, honestly...), their hex removal is toast even if they just cancel Holy Veil to remove, their next hex removal gets caught by Diversion. Then they are at your mercy for about 50 seconds. Also, I recommend at least two interrupts on this bar to catch long casters like nukers.  thirty9th  02:23, 20 December 2008 (EST)
 * If you are good with Wastrel's, you won't have to worry about someone "waiting 3 seconds for it to end". If you practice your timing, you can make it so that Wastrel's is the best cover hex in the game by reapplying instantly upon ending.  The only real problems I encounter are skills like Cure Hex and Remove Hex, but they're all very interruptible.
 * I really don't know how many times I need to reiterate that the point of this bar isn't really shutdown. You aren't a true "domination mesmer" to say the least - if you wanted to shut someone down, you should have brought Power Block and Shame.  Your point on this mesmer is to do damage and kill things.  While Diversion does help you accomplish that, it isn't the best choice in this case.  Better choices would be Shatter Enchantment, or something to help your mobility or survivability, like Distortion or a speed boost.  The only real use of Diversion I see on this bar is when this is run in a hex-heavy build, in which case you should have other huge modifications to this bar. (Humility, etc.) Lutz 03:20, 4 January 2009 (EST)

AB
Dash and Ether Feast are good optionals for AB, and the only defense you'll need barring snares. Lazuli 20:20, 14 November 2008 (EST)

Should empathy be on the main bar?
Discuss.152.226.7.213 23:51, 24 November 2008 (EST)
 * Meh for RA where ppl are dumb and will attack through it yes. In TA in a hexgay build where it will probably be covered by defile or something yes. other than that no. but i rly only see this is ra and ta and just barely but prob cause i play in american dist. far away from koreans. [[Image:OmNomNomNom_sig.jpg|19px]] Oɱɳoɱɳoɱɳoɱ ( nom )( nom )  00:35, 25 November 2008 (EST)
 * This is used in HA and gvg too. --F rosty 02:50, 25 November 2008 (EST)
 * i know VoR bars are used in HA and gvg though i havent seen many in HA with empathy though i was playing with shtty pug mesmers [[Image:OmNomNomNom_sig.jpg|19px]] Oɱɳoɱɳoɱɳoɱ ( nom )( nom )  12:16, 25 November 2008 (EST)

Backfire should not be on the main bar, definitely (if you dont see why, you're bad at mesmer). Diversion should be on the main bar, definitely (you know, that spell that can disable WoH for like 50seconds ...) and if you dont see why, you're bad at mesmer too. Remember this is not an AB/RA only build

And I think it should be discussed whether or not to keep WW on the main bar. I'd see shame or power leak being more useful, I dont want a little 100 damage (with a 200 heal on another guy), I want a big -15 energy. VoR Forces them not to cast because they could get damage, but sometimes it's better just to power leak spells. Or maybe to create an optional slot instead.

Edit : someone really needs to extend this page. This build is used in korean dis in RA (by me), but not the way it's like, not with the "deal armor ignoring damage !" lure this build is doing. Stoella 17:38, 27 November 2008 (EST)
 * When physical attackers are scarce, Empathy can double as a cover hex if you have the energy to spare, though doing so will promptly result in "OMG EMPATHY ON A MONK?!" spam. Lazuli 19:30, 1 December 2008 (EST)


 * This is a GvG build. 69.248.232.88 19:38, 1 December 2008 (EST)
 * Yes, Empathy is one of the best skills on the bar, which allows you to both pressure teams and score solo kills. You should not take Empathy out. Lutz 01:26, 18 December 2008 (EST)

Diversion
Needs to be there Stoella 18:58, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Since this mes build is focused on damage and not disabling skills diversion is not in the main bar. However it is there in place of the optional slot for all those who thinks diversion should be glued on all domination bars so it's not left out.--√ iktor (contribs) 14:24, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I disagree, this bar is just as much about shutdown as a PB bar, it just achieves it by discouraging enemies from using skills, instead of disabling/interrupting them. And since diversion is such a versatile and good skill, I think it should be mainbar.Feriluce 23:19, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
 * You could bring a damaging interrupt like Power Spike instead so when the caster think the coast is clear and free of BF and VoR they cast a spell to get rid of WW and bam an additional 209 dmg that is very likely to kill them, true Diversion is more all-round but that is a matter of preference.--√ iktor (contribs) 08:40, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * True but Diversion is like the Mesmer's DShot in that it counters pretty much everything and is generally awesome. You could even take both. 81.109.179.84 14:03, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

From some of the above comments about diversion and such I have my doubts about these people's intelligence. This is a damage/pressure build, not a shutdown build! Get your heads around it people! Why shutdown a monk's WoH for 50 seconds when I could just kill the monk in five seconds flat? Its just like those Mes that bring VoR and Backfire and the rest of the bar is all interupts, they put VoR & BF on a monk and then start interupting all their spells they try to cast! I am like WTF you are making ur own elite pointless, half ur bar cancels out the other half. Instead of SAVING the enemy monks life by interupting, stop and just let the monk freaking die!
 * Yes but Diversion is a counter to pretty much everything. You can spread VoR to the team and Diversion the monk so that they die while they think they're being healed, or Diversion the monk in VoR's downtime, or heck you can even divert that assassin who's spiking your own monk, and not worry about him/her for another 50 odd seconds. Also Diversion and VoR are not exactly unsynergetic, since if you cast something under both you will take the damage AND get diverted. And if your WoH is diverted, you'll be force to use less powerful healing skills which means you need to spam more and thus take more damage. Either way, Diversion is powerful and it should definately stay at least in variants. 86.26.56.226 08:05, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

HB
Uhh.. has this been tested for HB? I mean.. Three heroes that cast through wastrels, VoR, Drain enchant as only healing option.. -- Karasu (talk) 11:43, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The build itself isn't meant for HB (a variant is), but no one wants to bother with setting up a separate page or writing out separate usage notes for Hero Battles. If you really need the specific build, just play a few matches and I'm sure you'll see one or you can ask me in-game (Teutonic Paladin).  Teutonic 13:44, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_HB_VoR_Capway PVX-Ironboot 13:51, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah.. Thx for that Ironboot. But I'd rather not have 8x Searing Flames on me instead of 4x ^^ and I figure that builds with so many different options should have all these options specified on its page. Nothing states anything in (obvious) changes for HB. --[[Image:SigKarasu.jpg|19px]] Karasu (talk) 14:03, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

for CM
[build prof=Me/P DominationMagic=11+1+3 FastCasting=8+1 InspirationMagic=8+1 Command=9][Visions of Regret][Backfire][Empathy][Wastrel's Worry][Auspicious Incantation][Arcane Echo]["Fall Back!"]["Make Haste!"][/build]
 * Auspicious Incantation->Arcane Echo->VoR->VoR

I realize it's using a Superior Rune, but it's CM. XP ــѕт.  мıкε  14:30, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * 100 damage wastrels is pretty hawt on carriers.[[Image:Signature-Liger414.png|19px]]The Liger  is looking for a HA guild  14:39, 7 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I laugh when people use a variant of this w/o wastrel worry in jq, I end up just kinda standing there, and then kill them onces the hexes expire :P

Tags
just wondering - is there any other bar on PvX that is tagged for every PvP area? ··· Danny   Does   Drugs  16:13, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I think Cripshot is the closest to this. It just doesn't have HA. Probably should remove some tags for the other VoR builds we have. [[File:KJ badge sig.png]] 16:14, 8 June 2009
 * Primal [[Image:Frostysig9000.jpg|19px]]Frosty  the Admin 16:20, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * ^ orite. was just wondering when I noticed the template got stretched down an extra line. ··· Danny   Does   Drugs  16:41, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Get on the nerf waggon
and get moved to 'good' or archive~Flesh Atrophy~ "I R MudKipZ"  02:36, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Archive and make a new one with signets or rit heals.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 02:37, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * ... -- Frosty  Mc Admin  02:40, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * give it some timeFMK- 06:22, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Trying to predict skill balance changes is like trying to predict English weather. Sometimes those massive black rainclouds give it away, but most of the time it just can't make up its mind. Although actually, English weather is normally rain. 86.26.56.226 08:07, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * ? dont really need metaphors here my friend...and since when did Anet Retract one of it's nerfs? i'd like to know that. the reason they nerf it ultimitley is to get people to use other stuff and not make the game a snore fest~Flesh Atrophy~ "I R MudKipZ" [[Image:own'd.jpg| 18px]] 13:16, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

VoR is still amazing really, now you just have to put backfire on one of the monks and VoR on the other. Drahgal Meir 19:36, 27 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, and then they just have to each lift their veils and then they are perfectly clean. 99.23.160.235 03:36, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
 * and thats why u have a necro spamming lingering--Relyk 13:25, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Smiting Variant
[build prof=Me/Mo DominationMagic=12+1+1 FastCasting=6+1 SmitingPrayers=11][Visions of Regret][Backfire][Empathy][Scourge Healing][Castigation Signet][Optional][Optional][Resurrection Signet][/build] Additional Options:
 * Signet of Disruption for an interrupt.
 * Wastrel's Worry for damage.
 * Bane Signet for relieving pressure and minor damage.
 * Smite Condition
 * Smite Hex
 * Hard res
 * Inspiration Magic for more energy to spam hexes.

Scourge healing adds up to even more pressure versus monks (and self-heals.) --Ender A 06:51, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Mantra of resolve
I'd mainbar it over hex breaker, it's far more commonly played that way. VoR mesmers are always priamry targets to shutdown in TA/HA/GvG, not being able to interrupt them makes shutting them down much more difficult

MoR nerf
This will actually hurt quite a lot, but I guess you can still go VoR -> Switch midcast -> Backfire in the 5 second period. Maybe un-mainbar? -- <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Frosty  <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Mc Admin  10:29, September 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * Pious Conc unless abusing secondary, I'd guess. -- -Ch  ao  s-   10:45, September 18, 2009 (UTC)

Necro skills with VoR?
Can't you use necro hexes/skills so you can just spam stuffs without worrying about the condition for the extra damage? --86.63.33.255 16:45, November 8, 2009 (UTC)
 * Not worth the horrible spec. --<font color="Black">Frosty  [[Image:Frostcharge.jpg|19px]] 16:58, November 8, 2009 (UTC)
 * It's viable, but not prime. What's worth more: Successfully landing your main hexes? or risk having them rupted for the sake of landing them with full damage benefits? It's up to you, mainly. Parasitic Bond would probably be the prime choice if going with the Necro Line. --BlazingBurdy 15:08, January 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Parasitic Bond....really? <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">16:37, 22 January 2010
 * It's a good cover for VoR to enable the full damage effect vice using a mesmer cover, which negates the full damage. --BlazingBurdy 16:39, January 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * But over all the other amazing Necro hexes, you think PBond has the most viability? Even as a cover hex, I think I'd rather have Defile Defenses. <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">16:42, 22 January 2010
 * Defile is good, but think about the many other necros using it. Do you really want to overlap theirs with yours? Your has less specced into curses making it inferior to theirs. --BlazingBurdy 17:08, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

Pious Nerf
Thoughts on Distortion for block/interrupt cover, or Mantra of Concentration ? Also what about adding Arcane Larcenry to optionals ? <font color="Blue">The Brand <font color = "Black" font size = 1>Pure Primal Rage. ''' 06:35, March 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Still usable. -- Chaos?  -- 12:37, March 5, 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand how you believe it's still usable. 10 energy and 10 second recharge does seem a bit intensive, especially when you avoid a rupt a first time, and need to wait 10 more seconds in order to avoid another one (that is, if another mesmer or ranger camps you).

Ether Signet
Any chance as seeing Ether Signet as an alternative option to Pdrain for those who suck at rupting? Long recharge but I've used it in RA with a low-e set handy and haven't had any problems.Zalgo 18:01, May 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * No. <font color="Lime"> «No <font color="Black"> Ѵit..« 18:03, May 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * While you are free to use Ether Signet, obviously, it's better to run pDrain, because it can be used both offensively and defensively. Using it to interrupt a SH in HA can save your team from about 400/500 damage (overestimated.), which in turn saves your monks a lot of energy. Brandnew 18:07, May 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * 200/300, it's still a lot! --<font color="Black">Frosty  [[Image:Frostcharge.jpg|19px]] 18:30, May 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well I meant mainly for RA. I mean sometimes you will come across situations in RA where you need energy and there is nobody with spells to rupt.  Not to mention most people can't rupt with 100% accuracy.  Then again you can just carry a high-e set too. Whatever works I suppose.Zalgo 12:49, May 21, 2010 (UTC)

Wastrel's Demise
So I heard the new Wastrel's Demise can do up to 160 damage and act as a 1/4 5 recharge cover hex. And works brilliantly with skills that force you to not cast. <font color="#A55858">Frosty 07:17, August 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Now its either take 100 damage, or not cast and watch as you and all adjacent allies take 160 damage! Life   Guardian  07:33, August 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Does wd end before vor activates i.e. take 43 damage instead of 100 for using a skill?-- Relyk  talk  00:04, August 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think it causes them to take the 43. WD only ends after they successfully use a skill, so I would assume VoR's secondary damage wouldn't trigger. I was using it the other day in FA and wasn't really paying attention, though. I was mostly just laughing at the yellow numbers.
 * Oh, and the bug on WD means that you can stack it on itself, btw. It will just repeat the damage cycle. <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">15:22, 26 August 2010  (UTC)
 * Even among the handful of people who are still dumb enough to run hexes, demise is nonstandard - I'm just not sure what to have in that slot instead of Mantra Conc. --Lemming 18:48, August 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Tbh, I just added WD for the other arenas. In AB, CM, and RA it's extremely popular. I haven't GvG'd or watched obs in a while, so I have no idea what to put there. I was just trying to make the build more standard for all arenas. Feel free to change it. <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">18:56, 26 August 2010  (UTC)

MoC
needs to be un-mainbar its rarely ever run nowadays 67.142.166.22 23:47, August 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * ^was me, dunno why i un-logged in =.= The Scythe  User The_Scythe_Has_Fallen_Sig2.png  Has Fallen  23:49, August 25, 2010 (UTC)