Archive talk:Team - 2 Man Physical Support

Not sure about the last bar but laumclazy. - Athrun Feya - 12:38, January 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Looks ok to me except maybe PoD. Recharge is a little high imo. Spaggage  talk  13:04, January 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * I take ER protter for HM.--ValeV 14:20, January 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Not a huge fan of relying on my henchies for healing. I like the regular setup more :o Life   Guardian  17:05, January 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * This does have some healing - and lets be honest the monk hench are probably the better choice of all of them (strong warriors, lol). Taking N.Rt over N/mo is also in variants. - Athrun Feya - 11:08, January 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Herta is win! Also, I'm not sure about Weaken Armor seeing as you have all the armor ignoring buffs anyway. Drop it for another prot, maybe SoA? Spaggage  talk  11:15, January 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * All the melee damage you do will still be effected by armor.


 * / Splinter Bot Hero


 * / Orders Dervish Hero


 * / Curses Spammer Hero

hmmm - Athrun Feya - 11:17, January 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * I know it will but with all the rest of the buffs, stuff will be exploding anyway and it just seems overkill is what I was trying to say. No prots? =/ Spaggage  talk  11:27, January 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Think about it. Stuff like PS and blocking are less necessary on physicals, you could just adjust your build slightly. - Athrun Feya - 11:35, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

Oh. I have a better idea. - Athrun Feya - 11:36, January 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Looks good to me. Spaggage  talk  12:17, January 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * ^This has pretty much everything I'd want in a hero team as a physical. Toraen TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png]] 12:31, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The D/N will be kinda useless though if one or both of the humans are using scythes (AoHM). There should probably be a variant build for that. Toraen TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png]] 13:28, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 * No. It's useless either way. Orders dervs shine on physical teams. Last time I checked this team has only two of them. -.- Way to waste skillslots. This is hardly "physicalway" at all. Not to note that half these bars are terrible. Who's dicks did she suck to become BM at some point anyway?
 * Ah good old IPs, always flaming, never signing. Oh superior anonymous contributer, what do you suggest for these skill bars that have been cruelly deprived of your wisdom and endless understanding? Spaggage  talk  15:19, January 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Eat me spaggage :P Your superior sarcasm nearly escaped me. Too bad your buildwars isn't the same level as your sarcasm skills.
 * Ups, I got BM from contributing highly to most of the elite areas meta builds and tactics. Also half the bars (well all but 1 of the bars) are already on PvX rated Great in the hero section, frankly making your opinion in the minority I'm afraid to say. It is true though that is isn't really physicalway - it's more 2 man physical support heroes. Although Derv Orders isnt at its maximum efficiency by only having two physicals in the party, this team isn't exactly lacking anything else and to be perfectly honest Orders Derv will always be better than any attempt to make a melee hero. - Athrun Feya - 16:09, January 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow. Cryways and teams filled with perma slivers. Those are really hard to make. You so good! I apologise, that BM status was obviously deserved after all, and obviously not from sucking dick. My point about the bars being bad wasn't about them being on here already in great (lovely of you to hide behind that label though), it was about you taking them out of the great section and altering them in such a way that they are worse. Elite enchantment removal for pve?! Come on!! Necros have tons of other elites that would be so much better. Or an elite from a secondary prof even. And that is just one example out of many. I also find it funny that you actually agree with me on the orders derv but cba to think of something better to put in your team.
 * Well as of yet you've not shown you can think of anything better either, same story goes for the 'tonne of other' necro elites. When we hear these illusive skills then I'll start taking you seriously (or loose all regard, which is usually the case). However, until then your claims hold no regard but well done on your cute attempt at trolling. Inb4 'ur terrible if you don't know what skills i'm talking about' - just a pretty stupid way of sidetracking the fact you have no grounds to base your arguments on. - <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Athrun <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Feya - 17:35, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

Orders bar
Should the E/N replace the D/N? This team doesn't really need the D/N's healing (two sets of rit heals, party healing and hex removal on the MM, prots on the curser, possibility of SY on players), and being able to spec into earth wards or free up slots on the N/Rt resto is interesting. It also has Awaken the Blood for slightly stronger orders. <font face="Courier New" color="Black">Toraen <font face="Courier New" color="DarkGoldenrod">TheJanitor 23:02, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
 * ^ yes basically. want to do it for me? - <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Athrun <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Feya - 23:08, January 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * this looks like a random assortment of builds, you could just as well use sabway or discord. i would just list the e/n and rt/mo and barbs/mop can go on a necro from sabway or discord-- Relyk  talk  00:45, February 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * ^ tbh. 2 player hero builds don't seem very useful to me. Just reduce it to a 1 player/3 hero build...unless this is for a specific area. I hate 2 player + hero builds unless they're for an elite area. They just seem pointless. <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">00:51, 1 February 2010
 * 2 man 6 hero is quite common. just look on guru at the people requesting vanquishing partners, this is why. - <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Athrun <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Feya - 01:12, February 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * The only people I've ever seen looking for VQ partners are guys with new Guru accounts (which means they're probably bad at the game or new to it). It's so easy to VQ with just hench + 3 heroes that I don't know why people would bother. And when most people do they just c+p 2 discordways or make up their own shit. <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">02:47, 1 February 2010
 * maybe i've spent too long afking in shitter pve guilds then. - <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Athrun <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Feya - 02:50, February 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Or it could just be me, but I've never seen the point of 2-man VQ'ing unless the area is really difficult....and there aren't many of those in GW. <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">02:51, 1 February 2010
 * The only real points to it are to have someone else to talk to on the mic who's sorta on the same page as you and to get the area done a little faster (significantly faster if you split, but this build doesn't do that, and splitting might not be viable everywhere). <font face="Courier New" color="Black">Toraen <font face="Courier New" color="DarkGoldenrod">TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png]] 01:06, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

if you try to vq with discord or sabway you will fail hard in a part of the vq's (like joko for example). they have the right dmg but not the defence that is needed for hm.I never use discord or sab and did al lot of vq's with 2man and 6 heroes. vq is so borring alone and its 10 times faster then with 3 hench. This build looks great. it has big amount of aoe aid dmg.

Imbagon + 100b/WW warrior
Jesus christ, game over. this build is the fist of god. ▲ɐʇoɯısʞ▲ 17:25, February 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm an imbagon and my girlfriend just picked up the game and is playing a Warrior. This is gonna be a total shitstorm in a months time :-) 59.100.65.191 11:11, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Corrupt
Is it really needed? I mean, do PvE monsters have that much enchantments you want them to get rid of anyway? (asides from Afflicted Azzzazzzzzzzzzzzzzinzzzzzzzzz, but you can't remove SF with Corrupt anyway) Brandnew 17:29, February 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * good alternative? - <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Athrun <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Feya - 18:25, February 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * That's what I was thinking. You might be able to get away with WoR+Rip, idk. Brandnew 00:54, February 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * oh, i meant good alternative elite ;p - <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Athrun <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Feya - 00:59, February 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Going to use the: 'friday night, just went to a bar, semi-drunk' excuse. Believe i've still got some off those to claim for this year. --Brandnew 01:11, February 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * IV is like the only other thing useful-- Relyk  talk  01:16, February 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * doesn't IV deal like, 6 damage? --Brandnew 01:19, February 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * But it's to all nearby foes!!! Spaggage  talk  01:55, February 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * The second healer has no reason to be Rt primary, the interrupts are cute and all, but N/Rt have better ene management without the need to have loads of spellcasters around them. 78.1.70.132 22:54, March 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Interrupts are actually useful to have. You can sub it out if you don't need interrupts for a particular area. <font face="Courier New" color="Black">Toraen <font face="Courier New" color="DarkGoldenrod">TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png]] 23:30, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * They're useful but the way most AI casters work is - cast AoE (usually slower casting spells) at the start of a fight, your Rt interrupts them and basically gets no energy back since he/she is usually at max before a fight starts anyways. The optimal utilization of this character would be to start interupting after he's healed the initial damage (when he actually needs the energy) but as far as I know heroes just go and rupt whatever they can asap. 83.131.52.227 17:54, March 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * The interrupts do recharge mid-fight if it lasts long enough to cause energy problems, so the hero only runs out of energy if you're really straining the healing abilities of 2 rit healers (pretty hard to do with all the defense in this setup). I've run that hero several times in place of an N/Rt in a 3-hero setup with good results. <font face="Courier New" color="Black">Toraen <font face="Courier New" color="DarkGoldenrod">TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png]] 23:56, 2 March 2010 (UTC)
 * you could use energy drain over tease, as it suggests. - <font color="SteelBlue">Athrun <font color="Black">Feya [[Image:Lau_bfly.gif]] - 00:43, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think an ER protter with some hex removal would be a better choice then the necro healer Notorious BW 21:48, March 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * There's already 2 hex removals in the build, but that's a decent option. You'd also get to use the free slots on the SS necro for something like command. <font face="Courier New" color="Black">Toraen <font face="Courier New" color="DarkGoldenrod">TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png]] 22:52, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Orders
are kind of wasted with only two physicals. If Heroes were good with Barrage, I'd suggest it, but this evidently isn't the case. Incendiary Arrows with Quickening Zephyr might actually work out, because QZ also reduces the recharges of all of your Energy management skills (SoLS, Inspiration interrupts), among other benefits (Ether Renewal, Aegis, Jagged Bones, Mark of Pain). You'd likely want to put SoLS on your MM's bar, though. An Earth Shaker hero could also work, assuming heroes won't find a way to fuck that up, too. Finally, Corrupt Enchantment (use a non-Elite), Barbs (long casting time) and SS (iffy) aren't worth it, imo. Oh, and, Hundred Blades Warriors. ــѕт. мıкε  00:31, March 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Nvm about the Elites; your choices blow, anyway. >.> ــѕт.  мıкε  02:12, March 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Youre welcome to suggest something better. I (nor anyone else) have thought of anything better to replace them. Also now anet have buffed half the skills in the orders bar, it does a lot more than a bit of extra damage for your phys chars. - <font color="SteelBlue">Athrun <font color="Black">Feya [[Image:Lau_bfly.gif]] - 14:18, March 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * This and this are what I've got so far. I realized the inconvenience of Quickening Zephyr, so I made the second version. Basically, the ER Orders and Splinter/SoH Bot can be merged into/onto one bar, with Splinter and Ancestors' moved into/onto another bar. Generally, I try to get two copies of Splinter Weapon, Ancestors' Rage, Mark of Pain and Aegis on every team (that has physicals, including Minions). Weapon of Remedy is still pretty meh as an Elite, but I couldn't think of anything better that could also take Splinter+A-Rage, MoP, or Aegis on its bar (the Rt/Me doesn't have the room). Also, Heroes are apparently excellent with Infuse, so there's no harm in keeping one copy, even with low Healing Prayers (250-321 is a big Heal).
 * Another way to approach this is name all of the skills we absolutely want in the build, and try to work around that. ــѕт.  мıкε  16:54, March 20, 2010 (UTC)

V3: it's starting to look better. XD ــѕт.  мıкε  05:27, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

Any thoughts? I think I've got something decent (slightly more efficient than this in terms of useful Elites and bar compression). Destruction+Destruction+Feast of Souls seems like it could be interesting on Heroes for AoE spike damage+party heal, although, of course, timing might not work out, but ideally, that's 150 in the area damage every ~10 seconds. ــѕт. мıкε  02:07, March 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Err, most of those bars are pretty bad. Life   Guardian  02:09, March 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Explain. The only bar that isn't standard for PvE is the SoS Rit because it's between Build:Rt/any Signet of Spirits Hero and Archive:Rt/Me SoS Restoration Rit. To not use SoS as fodder for FoS is an insult to the skill (forcing you to go /Me for MoI), and Destruction is pretty decent now. The Smiter is forced to take Blessed Signet to maintain SoH on 3 allies, but then again, Smiters don't have that much to do in the first place (recharge on Ray of Judgment). The only two things that I think are really missing are extra rez and a spike heal (Infuse or Spirit Transfer), which I'm still looking for ways to fit in. Barbs, Shield of Absorption, Blood Bond, Mark of Fury, Infuse Condition, Weapon of Warding (because of Dual Aegis, instead) and Recovery are all either wastes or just not that useful. ــѕт.  мıкε  02:45, March 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Attrib spread on RoJ is horrific. Blessed sig is terrible. You said Shield of Absorption is bad, which makes you bad. MM doesn't need SoLS. Heroes can't manage 2 pots, and destruction should never really be of use(not to mention you have 2 of them, unless heroes will cast on recharge regardless of if one is up). Using feast of souls is an insult to SoS's damage capabilities, and hex eater sig will cause massive ai bugs(eg, running up to frontline to remove hexes). Heroes can't prioritize balled foes, so erf shakur is somewhat subpar. Even then, lolbellysmash. Life   Guardian  03:05, March 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * The RoJ would heal for shit, even with DF and Smiter's Boon (it only has Smite Hex to heal allies with), so it isn't worth the investment in DF; I put the points somewhere else, without any significant loss. If you insist that the MM doesn't need SoLS, I'll drop it for Shield of Absorption, but with so many allies (Minions, mostly) and two copies of Aegis, you can't expect your allies to take lots of small damage. It could be useful for AoE, but seeing as you've got two physical players, one copy of "Save Yourselves!" won't be too hard to manage. SoS, on its own, deals 36 DPS, destroying the Spirits to save your party isn't a big deal, although, to have PWK and PWML on separate bars, I can drop the Destructions, FoS, MoI and Hex Eater Signet (although from Hex Eater Signet: "Heroes will favor allies who are nearby with Hex Eater Signet."), and put some Resto on the SoS's bar instead. The point of Destruction was that, when destroyed by FoS, it could be resummoned (by the other Hero) right after. They won't resummon them to kill them, but if they die early, they'll be replaced. I'll make the Earth Shaker optional; the build will be even more flexible, then. ــѕт.  мıкε  14:44, March 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Obviously youve never played a phys char properly or you'd know they take a lot of small damage packet - SoA is very useful. 91.154.106.127 14:47, March 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * I understand that, but you missed my argument: "If you insist that the MM doesn't need SoLS, I'll drop it for Shield of Absorption, but with so many allies (Minions, mostly) and two copies of Aegis, you can't expect your allies to take lots of small damage. It could be useful for AoE, but seeing as you've got two physical players, one copy of "Save Yourselves!" won't be too hard to manage." So, when most of your team members have 160+ armor and 50% blocking, while Bone Minions have less 60 and are of low level, they'll be taking the most damage, which is what you want. ــѕт.  мıкε  14:55, March 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * how does that make the fact you, as a phys char, should be the one to first aggro all foes any different? Jump into mobs (preferably with death's charge and iau on), slap soa on and watch stuff die in a whirlwind of splinter weapon. 91.154.106.127 15:48, March 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * You're describing a tank; this is a Hero Team build, and, again, you've got tons of Minions that will keep Monsters from targeting you. Either way, here's V4, modified to please Life Guardian, and SoA is an option on the MM's and the RoJ's bars.  ــѕт.  мıкε  15:57, March 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi Lau! l2p mike. Life   Guardian  20:14, March 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * User:St._Michael/sandbox. I've corrected just about everything you've criticized. ــѕт.  мıкε  20:24, March 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Wasn't talking about the build there. I was talking about how you reacted when the best way to play a physical was described. Oh, and i really don't see a reason for pwwlm, spirit transfer, or gaze from beyond. Heroes also glitch when using GoLE, and won't cast 5 energy spells. Life   Guardian  20:39, March 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * The build she described hasn't been vetted for general PvE, and, as far I've seen, "IAU!", Death's Charge and Whirlwind Attack on the same bar are used mainly with full-player teams, on Elite missions. Build:W/any Hundred Blades doesn't even have IAU or Death's Charge listed as Optionals or Variants.
 * I'll make PWLM optional with PWK on that bar, but in condition-heavy areas, it will be useful. Spirit Transfer is a spike heal (220 point-heal, which can compete with HB or WoH), and with SoS, there's no reason not to take it when the Hero has the Energy and the reflexes. Gaze from Beyond is there, because I couldn't find anything better, and I figured a little Blind couldn't hurt. As for GoLE: I haven't seen any such notes.  ــѕт.  мıкε  21:09, March 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * lulwut. add death's charge and iau to any w/any build and then l2p! "Whirlwind of splinter weapon" just referred to using any aoe damage with splinter weapon on. If you're really worried about conditions, you do realise that with SoS in the team, each usage of Mend Body and Soul removes 4 conditions from each player? As well as the FF on the minion master which migrates all conditions over to minions. I'm really curious as to how you think a phy char should be played. - <font color="SteelBlue">Athrun <font color="Black">Feya [[Image:Lau_bfly.gif]] - 10:23, March 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Why isn't Death's Charge and "IAU!" on every PvE melee build (that can manage /A)? I have little knowledge of PvE outside of what I see on PvXwiki. PWML is quicker than FFing and MBaSing the whole (or most of the) team, and I didn't have the room for FF on the MM's bar in my version. I also wouldn't be surprised if the AI removed conditions from Minions, although I haven't played GW since the Summer. ــѕт.  мıкε  12:13, March 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Its on a few of them (the ones ive made more recently) but too much cbaing to update old builds. - <font color="SteelBlue">Athrun <font color="Black">Feya [[Image:Lau_bfly.gif]] - 12:33, March 29, 2010 (UTC)

Anywho, what does everyone think about the version I've been working on, now? The point was to be able to bring at least one physical Hero, but you evidently don't have to. What was lost completely (so excluding Optionals and Variants) includes SS (scatters too easily, iirc), Barbs (long casting time and needs to be reapplied very often), Weaken Armor (couldn't find the room), Blood Bond (Minions don't need Heals, needs to be reapplied very often), Mark of Fury (single target, reapplied often, only lasts half its recharge), the Mesmer interrupts (the optional Hero could take some disruption), Weapon of Warding (extra Aegis instead), Life (can't be timed), Recovery (plenty of condition removal, anyway) and Bloodsong (no room for it or Painful Bond to go with). Also, in Hard Mode, it would be worth bringing Orders over AoHM, because the latter doesn't affect armor-ignoring damage, and, if you're using "SY!", you'll have Dark Fury, too. ــѕт. мıкε  20:23, March 29, 2010 (UTC)

Better Bars
IMO:

4 physicals instead of 2, lots of support, lots of damage, adrenaline like crazy (hence the attack skills on the paras), and double Splinter and ARage is amazing. If you really wanted curses, you could take the prot off of the MM and add Barbs and MoP. Judge's Intervention could be switched to Smite Hex/Condition, Remove Hex or Draw Conditions if needed.
 * I'm not sure if it's even worth keeping builds like this anymore tbh. Combine two people each with an OP hero team and GW is not a hard game. <font face="Courier New" color="Black">Toraen <font face="Courier New" color="DarkGoldenrod">TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png]] 22:11, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
 * This is an OP hero team. That's what it's here for. And as far as I can see, this is about the best you can run with melees. -- Jai  01:14, August 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Go for it then. This page is in dire need of an update, and your team looks solid to me. I'll go stick a well tag on the other one (when you finish editing this one). <font face="Courier New" color="Black">Toraen <font face="Courier New" color="DarkGoldenrod">TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png]] 01:27, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Cool. Give me a day or two to get it all nice and shiny. -- Jai  01:30, August 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * The other one is better, although they're both randomways-- Relyk  talk  03:15, August 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * This has much more damage because: 1. It has four physicals, compared to two, and 2. Smite heroes have never even been that great because they rarely hit more than one foe (if any) with RoJ. The only time I run them anymore is for undead areas like Shards of Orr. The WELL should be on the other one. And if you call these "randomway", then all the 2-man builds should be WELL'd as well, because they really are not needed for general PvE. Or, we could keep (most of) them because playing with a friend is fun, and in this case is pretty much the best two melees can possibly run. -- Jai  15:39, August 15, 2010 (UTC)

Idk what the hell have you done but now this build should be in untested (bad builds) category, this is melee support not the buld for paragons but for casters, imo you destropyed this build, I dislike it now. I hate when pppl change thibgs which are just great -- God  Kamil 22:22, August 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * There's really no point taking 8563462 physical buffs when you only have 2 physicals. I much prefer this version. HareeMuh 22:35, August 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Looks pretty good, but why no barbs/MoP? And why Holy Spear? Just curious. Orphus 22:55, August 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Barbs is really only so-so due to its cast time (stuff dies too fast for it to be of much effect), and MoP requires micro to be really effective. They're both variants for the MM though, since you don't absolutely need an Aegis chain. I'd probably go with Enfeebling Blood and MoP when bringing curses on this. <font face="Courier New" color="Black">Toraen <font face="Courier New" color="DarkGoldenrod">TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png]] 23:55, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
 * It isnt racway that there would be paragon's build. I feel lack of necros ad hexes. -- God Focused Anger.jpg Kamil 11:04, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Paragons aren't just limited to being in racway... Also people have provided decent arguments as to why there shouldn't be necro hexes. HareeMuh 16:08, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

This is pretty bad btw. It has good points but both paragons are just terrible, terrible waste of bars. E/mo on a hero is generally bad too. I'm going to revert on the basis it is so different from the original build, though you're more than welcome to try and get the hero team build vetted separately. Athrun Feya 19:32, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

SoS Orders Hero
Isnt it better for the emanegement to make the SoS Orders Hero N/Rt instead of Rt/N? I dont think that such a proffesion change will change the dmg output so much.. ,- <font color="#571B7e">Konschu  11:39, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, it will change the damage output, because you'll be losing a ton of damage from Splinter Weapon, which behind SoH is your most powerful buff. Also, the hero actually manages its energy very well, and I rarely, if ever, see its energy get low. Spirit Siphon is fairly comparable to soul reaping in terms of energy gain. -- Jai  15:31, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

We shall return
How do heroes use it? I mean do they use it immediately after just 1 person has died or when a number of people have died? Either way i reckon have 2 copies of it is over kill.113.96.156.154 05:16, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure how heroes will use it, but I think the reasoning behind having both paras with it is in case one dies. Orphus 22:25, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

This build is terrible. You should have left the caster version alone. Honestly, two paragons don't provide enough support without better elites and echoes... and ER prot? much better in the hands of a human player. Aegis will often come before the correct reactive prot spells and minions will get a healthy dose of infuse.74.61.39.33 22:00, August 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * The para's are for additional DPS along with utility from Empathic, Bladeturn Refrain, Wild Throw, Fall Back, and Stunning Strike if you're taking it. Not only that, but GftE significant extra damage since it also affects all the minions. I'm not totally satisfied with the para bars, but they'll work. As for the ER ele... I did Arborstone HM and Tahnnakai Temple HM with my monk today, with me and that exact ER build as the only healers. I can honestly say that the ele was the one carrying the team at several points. And I'm at least an average, if not somewhat above average monk. It works great, and no other healer would have the capacity to heal a group alone as well as an ER does. -- Jai  04:10, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

i prefer the full caster hero set up, empathic removal isnt that great of an elite in PvE seeing as theres not a great amount of powerful hexes in PvE. However maybe having a single paragon as a variant over the SS necromancer for NM using soldier's fury for GFTE spam for minions and 3 physicals, reason im saying soldier's fury and not cruel or stunning is cus its dual physical, chances are atleast 1 of the 2 physicals can spam enough deep wound and extra GFTE spam would result in greater DPS than cruel spear's extra damage over time and single target daze in pve isn't that appealing to me. Also in NM things die too quick for barbs and MoP and sometimes SS to really take effect. Also fallback is always nice.113.96.155.134 06:15, August 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * These builds are pretty different, in my opinion. Why not make a separate build page for the caster version and the paragon version? Orphus 15:59, August 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Because PvX will bandwagon and 1-1 the thing. The para version probably isn't great anyway, but this version is still pretty terrible. Curses are bad on heroes, you don't have enough Splinter Weapons (at least two 14-spec'd copies should be practically mandatory for a melee), you have way too much condition removal (see both rits and the necro), and too little hex removal. I'd say we it would be better to add a Rit instead of the SS. On top of SW and AR, you could run Command (Fall Back + Incoming runner), prot, resto heals, or curses if you really wanted to. Elites could be Incoming as mentioned, or you could run Weapon of Fury, or Empathic Removal with prots. And like I said, condition removal is way overkill, so I'd say drop FF+Infuse on the necro for something more useful, possibly investing in Prot instead of Heal. -- Jai  18:20, August 25, 2010 (UTC)

yupi
Great. I see that paragons are removed because everyone have seen that they suck in this build. I even don't know how to explain it but they were bad here -- God  Kamil 22:40, September 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Says the dude who made the "Energy Demoter." Lol. -- Jai  22:42, September 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ehmm... lol? I see that you aren't long in pvx because it isn't my only build. I also invented 2 man racway you know it? I added lots of builds here on pvx, and im sure that not every build which I add is best of world, but they always change very much till they come to great category. Thats why I have added demoter to trial, I wanted to find out any use of wither, but nvm.-- God Focused Anger.jpg Kamil 09:10, September 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * By the way, don't be so presuming. I just said my opinion bout paragons in 2 man physway, when you dished my build out i have said nothing. That's why we have discussion pages when everyone can present his opinion.-- God Focused Anger.jpg Kamil 09:16, September 5, 2010 (UTC)