Archive talk:A/E Conjure Shackles

Why have SoDC?  Frosty  No U!  18:52, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Because 100 armour ignoring damage is good. Selket Shadowdancer 18:53, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Pointless spec and they should be dead already really.  Frosty  No U!  18:55, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Meh, SoDC isnt that much fun when you arent getting the full damage out of it. Brandnew.  18:56, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * It's short recharge time more than makes up for that. Selket Shadowdancer 19:05, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * It is, but 1 sec casting is pretty slow tbh. Brandnew.  19:06, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * So every build that runs a Signet should automatically be shot down? If this was for high level PvP I might be able to see your point, but it isn't. I've been running this in AB for most of the day with good results so give it a try before knocking it down. SoDC makes a nice finsher if your spike doesn't take your target down clean. Selket Shadowdancer 19:10, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Dude, I'm trying to be constructive. Don't get mad ;p No. Ofcourse not every build using a signet should be shot down, and yes; it is a nice combo-finisher. But is it honestly worth spreading your attributes out for it? Brandnew.  19:12, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * I'm not getting mad, lol. If you give it a go then you'll see that yes it is worth it. I mean you could not take it and drop more points into Crits and Dagger but you still wouldnt get as much damage. Selket Shadowdancer 19:14, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * And yes; for AB this could be a very viable build. Lack of shadowstep kind of buggers me though. (Well, I guess that doesn't really matter if your are spiking solely and your target is moving 90% slower.) Brandnew.  19:15, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Thing is shadowstepping builds are not really that great anymore (with a few exceptions) this gets around the lack of a shadowstep with its shorter recharge times and pretty awesome snare tbh. This build is more about good positioning and striking at the right moment, while having enough killing power to take down even Warriors on it's own. Selket Shadowdancer 19:19, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

Conjure > signet
Discuss.-- Sazzy  19:16, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Could work nicely actually. I'll give it a go. Selket Shadowdancer 19:19, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Conjure at 9 spec = 14 damage, you'll hit 7 times. 7*14=98 damage. Trading out two damage for quicker chain is pretty good. Makes your spike vulnerable to removal though. (If removed you'll lose a major part of your damage.) Brandnew.  19:20, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Get your Monk to cover it when tackling Mesmer shrines, enchantment removal in AB is pretty rare other than that rly. Selket Shadowdancer 19:23, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * btw; you can now completely loose deadly arts to buff up another line. ;) Brandnew.  19:26, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Yeah, I'm just checking stats now actually :) Selket Shadowdancer 19:27, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * 10 water, 8+0 crits 12+1+1 dagger. Brandnew.  19:28, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Or your way ofcourse. Brandnew.  19:29, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Nah those stats were better tbh. Higher crits meant less damage overall from the conjure. Now it does more damage than it did with SoDC. Selket Shadowdancer 19:30, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Yes, but your way it had sexy breakpoints :) Brandnew.  19:32, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * I'm really not sure if it would benefit as it would deal less damage, and snares for less time with Shackles. Is Crits 13 really needed? Selket Shadowdancer 19:36, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * No, it absolutely isn't. Chain is pretty low on energy this way. And if, somehow, you manage to get energy problems anyway you could just swap falling spider with falling lotus strike. Brandnew.  19:39, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Actually seems I'm not using SoDC now I will. Selket Shadowdancer 19:40, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Removing brutal weapon from notes because of conjure. Brandnew.  19:42, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Heh, i have current version in my sandbox xP -- Sazzy  19:45, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Thanks Brandnew. Selket Shadowdancer 19:46, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * np. Btw; would energy be fine if you'd switch to Storm Djinns? (I'm a big fan of long lasting IAS's aswell as being able to cover my own conjures.) dash is probably the superior choice though. Brandnew.  19:47, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * It would take testing to be sure. I'll give it a go when I get myself an Icy Dagger Tang. Selket Shadowdancer 19:49, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Actually Storm Djinns is very viable. Works a charm as a cover enchantment too. Selket Shadowdancer 20:04, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Icy Shackles is a bit redundant with the Cripple and Knockdown, imo. The Shadow Prison builds with Black Mantis Thrust and Trampling Ox had the same problem. >.> ــмıкε  нaшк  20:08, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * It gives you time to get to the opponent (90% is ouch).  Frosty  No U!  20:10, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

That's what Siphon Speed was for. :'( ــмıкε  нaшк  20:13, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Note: WAS! Selket Shadowdancer 20:14, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Cripple is there for the garanteed knockdown rather than the snare imho, as hoto is more unreliable. Overkill never hurt anyone I guess. -- Sazzy  20:17, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Nope. KD mid chain is pretty good. Selket Shadowdancer 20:18, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

Tag
So this is AB?-- L  R  20:12, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Yes. Selket Shadowdancer 20:14, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * CM as well probably (from what I have learnt, they're like the same).  Frosty  No U!  20:20, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Yeah I think its short downtimes would make it viable for both. Selket Shadowdancer 20:21, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

Viable?
Think this is ready to move into testing then? I can't see much more that can be done to it really. Selket Shadowdancer 20:19, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Seems no one has opposed I've moved into testing for AB & CM. Selket Shadowdancer 20:36, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

Strength of Honor
Get a team mate to maintain it on you for epic damage. Lol. Selket Shadowdancer 20:40, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

O shit
, old news tbh  Frosty  No U!  20:53, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Got abandoned through trial, it also needs alot of cleanup while this is ready to go forward, may aswell just let that get deleted and let this one go through vetting. Plus this has become alot more viable now shadowsteps got nerfed. Selket Shadowdancer 21:01, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * ^, just saying it was there and ready to take over :)  Frosty  No U!  21:04, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Yeah I know, but I've made this one already so no point in taking that over seems one of the two pages would have to be deleted anyway and this one is already finished. Just let that go through the abandoned process and let this go through the vetting process with new thought post nerf. Selket Shadowdancer 21:06, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Yea, not like that was in testing or vetted anything.  Frosty  No U!  21:07, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

Variant
I was just thinking that although its about 1/2 second slower this would do even more damage:

[build prof=Assassin/Elementalist Crit=8+1 Dag=12+1+1 Air=2 Water=10][Conjure Frost][Icy Shackles][Black Mantis Thrust][Golden Fang Strike][Trampling Ox][Falling Lotus Strike][Blades of Steel][Storm Djinns Haste][/build]

Thoughts? Selket Shadowdancer 22:07, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Only 35 more damage because Golden Fang Strike doesn't deal +53 damage like Jungle Strike. You save 5 energy, but you also lose out on Bleeding, and add almost a second (1.33-0.5=0.83). If the spike doesn't kill your target, you would finish them off with Black Mantis Thrust. So, you could just make Jungle Strike+Twisting Fangs optional, with Golden Fang Strike+Blades of Steel as your other option, but they seem pretty even to me. ــмıкε  нaшк  22:42, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * I'll add it as a variant then, spike speed comes first considering the difference is minimal as you pointed out. Selket Shadowdancer 22:45, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * The current bar is horrid, you have a snare like Icy Shackles that allows you to pressure extremely well. For this particular bar:


 * I've found has a lot more pressure. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 22:58, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Such an akward looking bar, though I can definitely see how it could be effective. Hikari 23:04, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * (ec) Plus, with the current bar, and with Icy Shackles being a 12s recharge, you're useless for a long time with even the smallest form of disruption, be it an interrupt or a hex removal. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 23:08, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * heh, you could use Golden Fang Strike instead of Wild Strike to save a slot, at the cost of + damage and bleeding. You wouldn't be able to spike very well, though. ــмıкε  нaшк  23:07, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Golden Fang Strike is optional, but I've always hated it for the lack of +damage on it. Plus, with Wild Strike, you can laugh at those stance whores in AB. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 23:10, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * And laugh even harder when you come across a Monk with Frenzied Defenses. Too bad they don't take that skill so much any more because they realized how much it sucks. XD ــмıкε  нaшк  23:16, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

Before I make any changes I'm going to try Raptas variant out first. However I would like to point out Rapta that I normally run this alongside a support Rit that has Strength of Honor, Wailing Weapon, & Warmongers Weapon, so even if for some reason I can't pull off my chain my damage is still pretty reasonable from autoattacking while throwing out some interrupts too. Golden Lotus Strike would probably be better to use than Black Lotus as it's not reliant on a hex (you have SDH and should have Conjure). Also your bar has no KD or secondary snare incase Icy Shackles is removed, and has completely lost the Conjure that makes this build worth running over other Assassin builds, in favour of a Res Sig that isn't worth taking in AB. :/ Lastly wasn't it you who trashed one of my builds because it was a pressure build in AB? And that it should just kill stuff? Selket Shadowdancer 02:48, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
 * I wouldn't remember. Pretty sure that bar kills more stuff than this current bar. And it has a res sig because it works in more places than just AB. You have constant IMS, a snare, an energy gain lead to power all that + your combo, and your chain is partly unblockable, and removes their stance. That's a lot more effective in AB than just spiking a target (it might be removed) and doing nothing for the next 13 seconds. As with the res sig, that obviously becomes an optional in AB or CM, allowing you to take something like Assassin's Remedy or Conjure. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 16:37, 2 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Having tried it out I'm inclined to agree. I'm going to add that bar as the main bar and the current bar into variants and request a vote wipe. Selket Shadowdancer 18:29, 2 August 2008 (EDT)

IMS
Put Dash back into the main bar as it was much quicker to close the gap between you and your target than using SDH. Selket Shadowdancer 10:34, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
 * You won't have a cover for your Conjure, but I'm not sure if that really matters. Storm Djinn's Haste was also lolnrgheavy. ــмıкε  нaшк  10:36, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Well as said elsewhere I normally run this with a support Ritualist/Monk that covers for me (I rarely PuG in AB), making a cover enchantment unnessacary. Enchantment removal in AB isn't very common anyway, and Mesmer shrine will tend to remove all of them unless you let someone else take aggro first. Also the main thing is with this build is that even if your conjure is removed, you still have a pretty formidable chain that has already been tried and tested before many times over. Selket Shadowdancer 10:47, 1 August 2008 (EDT)

TBH
It was better before. This is kinda crappy now. -- * Wah Wah  Wah! * 18:43, 2 August 2008 (EDT)
 * I swore a staple of any assassin chain was disruprion, aka KD.  Frosty  No U!  18:45, 2 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Tbh both builds are good imo, the current version however adds more attack spamming should your chain be blocked etc, which is common in AB even on casters now. Quick hex removal does leave you high and dry too while the current chain allows you to attack regardless. Rapta is actually right in the fact that it does suit AB mentality more, as it allows you to pressure teams instead of just fishing for a vulnerable target. Due to the lack of IAS (in both builds also) the current version allows you to repeatedly spam your attack chain over and over making even Warriors and Dervishes think twice before messing with you again. I've tried both and preffered the current version, maybe we should get a few testers to give opinions on both versions before sending out ratings? After all a revert is only a click away and easily done by anyone who feels the change is inferior. Selket Shadowdancer 19:42, 2 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Yeah, if you're extremely bad. You have much more flexibility and DPS output over a fragile non-tele spike. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 21:40, 2 August 2008 (EDT)

Better? ~ ĐONT * SYSOP  06:36, 3 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Not imo, I'm not really a fan of Golden Fang Strike in PvP, it does no + damage (not good for attack spamming), isn't a double strike (good for if you crit) and doesn't cause Bleeding either, also that has no stance removal which alot of casters seem to be taking nowadays to ward of spikers. You could take Wild Strike in the optional slot but with needing to take a Icy weapon for use with Conjure it's better to take Golden Lotus Strike imo. However I'm a firm believer of trying something before I knock it so I'll give it a go later and give more feedback upon usage of your variant. Selket Shadowdancer 07:14, 3 August 2008 (EDT)

Attributes and skills
Ignoring all the discussion so far, should be this.

[build prof=Assassin/Elementalist Crit=11+1+1 Dag=11+1 Water=8][Icy Shackles][Golden Fox Strike][Wild Strike][Death Blossom][Twisting Fangs][critical eye][Dash][Conjure Frost][/build]

Dash>SDH imo because is unnecessary, but it doesnt rly matter. 8 points in water magic= 1 less second of shackles, -2 damage from conjure. Bringing critical strikes to 13= energy management+critical eye=more spam. Spam>a little bit more damage. I would say impale like an SA, but seeing that the whole chain isnt unblockable... :D-- R  e l y k 23:53, 4 August 2008 (EDT)
 * I like that new spread as well. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 00:42, 5 August 2008 (EDT)
 * agreed this looks much better. Ravager  ofDreams
 * Also agreed, I added it as the man build. Selket Shadowdancer 04:30, 5 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Meant the spread, not the bar. O_o &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 21:47, 5 August 2008 (EDT)

HB
I use something similar in HB. I swap 40/40 shackles and then chain. It is pretty amazing. --Readem 04:31, 5 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Is that your way of saying it should have a HB tag? Selket Shadowdancer 04:33, 5 August 2008 (EDT)
 * It can. Pretty much anything that snares can work in HB. --Readem 04:48, 5 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Definitely do NOT tag this for HB. No IAS = failmuch.--[[Image:Xfire14siggy.png|110px]] 09:31, 5 August 2008 (EDT)

From AN
No Shadowsteps, No IAS. Is it rly a "good" build?-- 09:28, 5 August 2008 (EDT)
 * It's tagged for AB, CM, and RA. Anyway, this seems to be more of a Talk page issue, TBH. --[[Image:GoD Wario Sig.PNG]] * Wah Wah  Wah! * 09:29, 5 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Wait, SA Sin has no shadowstep or IAS, damn that's bad.  Frosty  No U!  09:29, 5 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Well SA is unblockable enchantment removal.... this is just.....Randomdaggerspike.--[[Image:Xfire14siggy.png|110px]] 09:30, 5 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Conjures can make up for the lack of IAS, Shadowsteps were nerfed hard, and the snare from Icy Shackles+Dash should be enough to catch your target. ــмıкε  нaшк  10:09, 5 August 2008 (EDT)

Icy Shackles
1 second really makes no difference, stop trying to archive it when it is unnessacary at this moment in time. Selket Shadowdancer 16:52, 14 September 2008 (EDT)


 * I hear PvX:1RV exists. [[Image:ViYsig5.jpg|19px]]Vĭctøȓƴışƴouȓş 16:53, 14 September 2008 (EDT)
 * I hear talk pages for discussion do too. Selket Shadowdancer 16:54, 14 September 2008 (EDT)


 * Why don't you read it and then you'll understand why I posted, don't be so stuck up. [[Image:ViYsig5.jpg|19px]]Vĭctøȓƴışƴouȓş 16:55, 14 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Understand the fact that I don't give a fuck about your opinion and politely STFU! Selket Shadowdancer 17:02, 14 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Wtf's wrong with you? My opinion? I was telling you you're breaking a policy. Take a chill pill. [[Image:ViYsig5.jpg|19px]]Vĭctøȓƴışƴouȓş 17:05, 14 September 2008 (EDT)
 * I don't do drugs, drugs are bad. Selket Shadowdancer 17:07, 14 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Seek help. [[Image:ViYsig5.jpg|19px]]Vĭctøȓƴışƴouȓş 17:09, 14 September 2008 (EDT)
 * That wouldn't be the first time someone told me that, however I'd like to politely remind you that you advice is duely noted... and discarded. Selket Shadowdancer 17:19, 14 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Erm I was actually more thinking about it's energy cost going up to 10 Selket... -- Frosty [[Image:SnowmanF.jpg|19px]] 16:57, 14 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Weapon switch and stop playing solo. Selket Shadowdancer 17:02, 14 September 2008 (EDT)
 * zzz this is what you get for updating build pages, abuse <3 -- Frosty [[Image:SnowmanF.jpg|19px]] 17:03, 14 September 2008 (EDT)
 * I'm not abusing you, I'm telling how to play the build. Also you have Golden Lotus for energy, use it. Selket Shadowdancer 17:05, 14 September 2008 (EDT)
 * All I am saying is the skill was updates, so I notified on the build page, and you QQ'd saying I was trying to get it archived "stop trying to archive it when it is unnessacary at this moment in time." -- Frosty [[Image:SnowmanF.jpg|19px]] 17:09, 14 September 2008 (EDT)
 * It was a request, not a QQ. Bringing it to the talk page was, imo, the right thing to do as this build is still very much usable. Selket Shadowdancer 17:19, 14 September 2008 (EDT)
 * mmmm, QQ. :D -- Frosty [[Image:SnowmanF.jpg|19px]] 17:24, 14 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Now if you really want that abuse... you're going the right way about getting it. ;) Selket Shadowdancer 17:25, 14 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Just to put it out there, 1 second difference actually does make a difference. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 11:52, 15 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Um, no it doesn't. Selket Shadowdancer 12:41, 15 September 2008 (EDT)
 * It's funny how little support you have behind that. Outside of "well, it's just one second". &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 15:22, 15 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Yet you offer no support as to why 1 second difference makes this build any worse and unusable in RA & AB. If you're going to act like a stuck up smart ass at least back it up with a useful comment that explains your reasoning. Selket Shadowdancer 15:44, 15 September 2008 (EDT)

Look if the cost of shackles becomes an issue just swap it for HC, since HC works great with only minimal Shadow Arts spec. --Tyris 15:23, 17 September 2008 (EDT)