Build talk:Team - 7 Hero Heroic Mesmerway

Enjoy it while it lasts! Hopefully not too long... --Xanshiz (talk) 05:53, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * If it lasts this will easily be the strongest 7 hero team of all times and we won't have to look any further in builds. What a bad day for build tinkerers. Let's optimize this as much as we can. --Krschkr (talk) 12:13, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

BiP Attributes
BiP has a lot of freedom because you only need 6+1 blood magic to hit the +6 regen breakpoint, and a +7 regen breakpoint is meaningless. However, this gives you 19 soul reaping, which is also useless... I figured I'd put some extra points in blood magic for blood bond and in the rare case that you face energy degen? Do we even want blood bond? Not sure, don't think it will matter too much. I don't want to give the BiP another "role," so I'm not sure what else the attribute points could go to.

Perhaps a stretch, but there is an argument that we might not even need a BiP. With pdrain returning 31+ energy, the mesmers might be totally self-sufficient. Still probably worth it though, since we will need a healer regardless. --Xanshiz (talk) 05:53, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Blood bond seems bad in this comp. Possibly giant arage? Splinter? LifeGuardian (talk) 06:09, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Putrid explosion would work with a legionnaire summoning stone or against melee foes. Bone fiend... would probably be too much for this hero despite heroic refrain. --Krschkr (talk) 12:12, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Mark of Fury to help paragon? Might help with loss of soldier's fury/FGJ/Focused anger. If you added 1 more point to blood for total @19, MoF would give +3 adrenaline per hit. This is 4 adrenaline per hit. Also Putrid Explosion would be best probably. You get big energy from soul reaping, why not? Also If you removed the BiP, ST has channeling now w/ spirit siphon, which helps a ton with energy. Willarddog (talk) 15:48, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Like Xanshiz said, big pdrain. Counter argument to that is 20 FC... more spell spam. 3 sec SPain, 4 sec shatter hex, 5 sec mistrust, 6 sec Esurge/CoF.


 * Another idea I was thinking about earlier was adding a motigon over a BiP healer. Motivaton can be really strong for big party-wide heals and huge continual heals/energy with finales. Condi removal with motivation elite, finale of restoration (can maintain on 4 allies, 99 HP per shout ending; energizing finale (hero can upkeep on every party member, gives 1 energy whenever shout or chant ends), add in a couple of shouts or chants: aria of resto, aria of zeal, ballad of resto, optional slotx2... maybe res skill, command/leadership shouts, signet of synergy, mending refrain (lol), lyric of zeal, chorus of restoration?


 * In addition to this, in anti-spirit areas, you could go SF ele (9 second burning?!?!?) + more shouts, which would empower "they're on fire!" for even more defense. IMO with TOF!, SY!, and TNTF!, do you really need an ST? Splinter weapon would have to be fit somewhere though. SF ele w/ SF, attunement, aura of resto (gives 90 HP per SF cast!), GoLE... and four shouts. Shouts are good with SF because they dont stop SF spam; they also trigger finales, but you could also take more motivation chants/finale of resto. SF can also take splinter + AR, or another attribute spell like deep freeze, mark of rodgort, meteor, churning earth, maelstorom, ward vs melee, etc.


 * I don't think these are 100% thought out concepts, but within my ramblings here here there might be a small nugget that is usefulWillarddog (talk) 15:48, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Mark of Fury is useless. You don't know which target has Mark because you have Arcane Connondrum, and it only lasts 5 seconds. There is no reason for taking an SF ele, unless you want to severely lower your damage. Dropping the bip is a bad idea, because you definitely want a real healer to deal with spikes. Bone Fiends is also not a good idea because the hero would be casting fiends all the time. Putrid might be a good option, but I've noticed that it doesn't get used that often on healer bars (because they prefer healing instead of dealing damage). ZStepmother (talk) 21:45, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Seeing as the breakpoint for BiP is at 13 Blood Magic and the breakpoint for the Spirits is at 19 Restoration Magic (Life has a breakpoint at 17 and 19, Recuperation at 19) should we consider changing the N/Rt into a Rt/N? The skillbar would basically stay the same and so would the effect of BiP while the healing would turn considerably more powerful. The problem becomes the energy management. The only energy management I can think of that could be valid would be Spirit Siphon, but heroes tend to use it poorly. Does anyone have some thoughts on this before I start testing it? (i.e. is it even worth testing?)

Possible skill bar: [build prof=Rt/n spawning=3 channeling=9+2 blo=9 resto=12+1+2][Blood is Power@13][Spirit Siphon@14][Spirit Transfer@19][Mend Body and Soul@19][Spirit Light@19][Protective Was Kaolai@19][Life@19][Recuperation@19][/build] --Haquillo (talk) 09:23, 2 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Actually, Soothing Memories over Spirit Transfer would make sense for a 2e 124hp-heal every 4s over a 10e 310hp-heal every 5s. --Haquillo (talk) 18:39, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree you'd probably want soothing on that bar over spirit transfer. Let's try it out and see how energy fares. My only worry is spirit siphon not being consistent as soul reaping. --Xanshiz (talk) 09:01, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Splinter on the ST, ST attributes
Right now, splinter is on the ST @ 18 channeling. This could be kicked up to 19 or 20, requiring another superior rune or dropping points from spawning/communing. Right now it's setup so that the spirits have maximum health. --Xanshiz (talk) 05:53, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I'd try 11+2 spawning power, 10+1+3 communing, 10+1 channeling magic. That's the 17er splinter weapon (can this paragon even use it up quickly enough?), 4 soul twisting charges and 20 communing. --Krschkr (talk) 12:11, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Spain worth it?
A hero casting Spain isn't casting Esurge, which is now on a 6s cooldown. Could it be possible that taking fewer copies of spain shows improved performance? --Xanshiz (talk) 05:53, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Only if you still have enough non-energy-surge damage against paragons, warriors and rangers. Also, keeping 2-3 spiritual pains against spirits and minions is worth it for a general purpose team build. I don't think aneurysm would suffice to kill warriors. Maybe 1-2 empathies, maybe the ineptitude mesmer. Testing should show what's the better solution. --Krschkr (talk) 12:09, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * yea but cast time is now .4 sec for SPain, so i dont think it would really hamper anything. IMO .4 sec cast time and 3 sec recharge on SPain will absolutely destroy single targets in a way discord can only dream of. Empathy is still a good take too. Willarddog (talk) 15:51, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Mesmer distribution
Right now there are four ESurges and one Inept. I like this distribution. But this could obviously be 5 ESurges, or 3 + panic + inept, or something else. I think the more energy sergers the better, but having a copy of conundrum and blind is worth one inept. --Xanshiz (talk) 05:53, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Heroic refrain may make illusion/domination hybrids viable, so we can go 5x energy surge with 1-2x arcane conundrum + wandering eye. --Krschkr (talk) 12:07, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Wandering eye is definitely an option instead of SPain yeah. ZStepmother (talk) 10:56, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Recent Modifications
Four copies of spain is overkill. Now running two, and an extra copy of fall back and a res were added. Both fall backs on heroes is convenient, since when running around, heroes are more likely to be in range of all party members since the player runs out in front.

Added SYG to the player bar for a couple reasons. First, with the comparatively low adrenaline gain, SY most likely won't have 100% uptime, so SYG helps bridge the gap. Second, SYG affects the player, which is nice. Also, it's maintainable@15 command.

Dropped blood bond from the BiP. I didn't want to replace it with putrid explosion due to its lower recharge, since I want the hero to be healing as much as possible. Recuperation does well with a solo Resto backline since it's good against pressure. Also, recap is maintainable at higher restoration. But any other suggestions are welcome.

One issue -- the ineptitude bar has a surplus of energy sustain, with three energy returning spells and overall low energy costs. As a result, there is wiggle room to fit more offense on the bar. Clumsiness could work, but it can work poorly with inept. I also thought about adding Cry of Frustration. For now I'll leave it as is, but there is room for improvement.

I do like keeping a copy of ineptitude for blind. Also it does a ridiculous 170 damage at 20 illusion. --Xanshiz (talk) 18:56, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Let's also consider a motivation player variant
Referring to. I personally haven't tried it because it makes splinter significantly weaker (maybe not even worth taking?) and you lose out on Save Yourselves. But some of the motivation skills are cool. --Xanshiz (talk) 10:51, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Natural Temper
Bad skill, but it becomes alright at 20 leadership. 12 second duration means approximately (+3?) adrenaline, subtract cost = net 2 adrenaline. Not bad considering it has no cast time (unlike Signet of Aggression) and can be maintained (unlike FGJ). No other super important skills, so I currently have this mainbarred, but open to alternatives. --Xanshiz (talk) 11:33, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Natural Temper has grown on me, make sure not to spam it. I always cast it right before "To The Limit!". This boosts TTL adrenaline gain so it basically always gives a fully prepped SY. Then you have ~10-12s of autoing to fuel the next SY. Afterwords, recast Natural Temper + "To The Limit!" + SY and start again. When I'm able to continuously auto, this seems like it has roughly 70-80% uptime. When I'm not able to auto because everything dies too fast, then, well, it doesn't matter anyway. --Xanshiz (talk) 00:14, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Moved to testing, some impressions
I like the current setup (for now, still room for improvement), let's start testing and rating this. Here are some impressions from my most recent DoA run:

SY has solid uptime, obviously not 100% like an Imbagon, but still worth taking imo. However, still need to compare to other player variants, including potentially a P/R SQ variant.

Very easy to maintain heroic refrain. Occasionally need to recast on the BiP/ST if they fall out of range, but other than that, no issues whatsoever.

No energy issues on the heroes, BiP was still useful if the mesmers didn't cast their insp spells. Could definitely consider replacing Spirit Siphon (or even BoC?) on the ST, because it doesn't cast spirits often enough for that to be a significant energy cost. Ancestor's rage maybe?

Spiritual pain mesmers out damaged the command mesmers (~21.4% damage share versus ~16.8% damage share), suggesting that spain is still decent. However, some of this is artificial, as summon damage inflates it a bit. Also, those mesmers are at 20 FC versus 19 of the command mesmers. When I put them all at the same fast casting, it evened out a bit. I think 2 copies of spiritual pain is a balanced amount for now. The inept also did a 16.4%, which is very respectable given it's a very defensive bar. --Xanshiz (talk) 00:14, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Definitely drop spirit siphon, arage replacement is fine. Inept is overloaded on energy management imo. I'd drop one/both inspiration skills and move para stuff here. The bar can fit both FB and SYG opening up a slot on the player bar. Recup seems too expensive here... LifeGuardian (talk) 00:23, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm trying arage and have overall been unimpressed. An alternative to consider would be mending refrain on the ST. Micro it at the start alongside heroic refrain for +3 hp regen on the entire team. Then if it ever occasionally drops, the hero can reapply it without you needing to worry about it. Seems like an OK choice given that you only have one healer.
 * I agree inept has a surplus of energy, but one point to consider is that putting shout(s) on it necessitates a command investment, which drops fast casting from 20 to 19. This only matters for 20s CD spells...which the inept has (conundrum). Regardless, say I swap fall back and death pact between an Esurge and the inept, resulting in bars that look like this:


 * Now, the Esurge has the same "problem" -- a surplus of energy management. Could drop an insp spell on the Esurge for another damage spell...but what? I think going beyond 2x Spain probably isn't worth it because it a) cuts into Esurge usage, b) consumes immense amounts of energy, and c) 2x spain already rips through all summons instantly. What else? Aneurysm? Empathy? Power Spike? Wastrels? Wandering Eye? These are all lower tier options. And the advantage of keeping SYG on the player that it results in 100% uptime, which is really nice. Also, it's free on a player but 10 energy on a mesmer. And the player bar isn't exactly thirsty for extra skill slots.
 * Lastly -- at 18 soul reaping, energy is the least of the BiPs energy concerns. But you're likely referring to the initial cast at the start of the fight. The BiP has 36 energy while holding PwK, subtract 25 equals 11 energy after using recup. It can still cast a few spells, then all it takes is one SoLS or one foe death (and enemies die quick) for the BiP to shoot back at full energy. The reason for bringing it is that solo Resto tends to perform worse against sustained pressure, so passive AoE healing is much appreciated (although this team is so busted as is, it doesn't really perform bad against anything). Also, there aren't many attractive alternatives. --Xanshiz (talk) 05:53, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm going to test this build sometime around Octover/November. I'm curious just how broken this build is... however that new Paragon skill looks extremely cool! Jorre22225G (talk) 13:26, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Heroic Refrain is insanely powerful but terribly boring... - Chieftain Alex (talk) 20:42, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

DoA HM without consumables
While I've been testing it all around Tyria, I resort to DoA to see how it fares against the toughest content in the game. With Mercenary Mesmerway, I could clear it in Hard Mode without consumables so long as flagged apart my heroes, precasted communing spirits, and was very careful with my pulls. Heroic Mesmerway can easily clear DoA HM significantly faster and with a much higher success rate with minimal of the aforementioned precautions. Here is an example run. I'm listing this as an exemplary video for now because it demonstrates how to setup buffs and also shows that the comp is pretty much invincible. --Xanshiz (talk) 01:32, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Will need to redo this run post-nerf, although I have done some testing and it still definitely functions very well in DoA HM and is definitely doable relatively easily. For now, I'll just leave it as the exemplary video because the team plays literally exactly the same. --Xanshiz (talk) 06:30, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Updated version posted. Bit sloppy but still showcases the strengths. --08:57, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Prodigy's Insignias
I'm not convinced they're still reliable with 20 fast casting. Any insight from playing the builds? --Krschkr (talk) 10:56, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Three out of five mesmer bars have three 20s cooldown skills, so it seems justifiable on them. Not sure about the two spain mesmers...maybe radiant would give a deeper energy pool for power drain to give higher returns on average? I feel like energy and health are both such a non-issue now that all insignia options become comparatively "weaker". --Xanshiz (talk) 15:07, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Welp
Thank goodness is was nerfed, still +4 attributes at 20 leadership so definitely still ridiculously strong. I'll start refining the attribute setup. Should function the same. --Xanshiz (talk) 01:24, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Attributes/equipment is mostly fixed, it still works amazingly, to no real surprise. --Xanshiz (talk) 03:16, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I think part of that is that the build already works amazingly without heroic refrain to begin with (5 mesmer way w/soldier's fury vetted build).Willarddog (talk) 13:19, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Very good point, in principle this exact comp with a blank elite slot would still function OK at worst and Good/Great at best. However, upon looking at the post-nerf comp, the losses are shockingly minor despite how significant the nerf seems. What we had to work with before was pure luxury. For instance, losing 17 channeling splinter pretty much doesn't matter at all since paragons can't even attack fast enough to fully utilize it to begin with. Power Drain not returning 31 doesn't matter since you never got the full benefit of +31 anyway. 8s command shouts are what we've used for years, going from 9s to 8s is a minor convenience loss, not a functional loss. The BiP is pretty much completely unaffected. Mesmers can still hit 20 dom and insane fast casting breakpoints, ST can still hit 20 communing for fat spirits. Even the player bar hasn't incurred significant losses, just drop some points from tactics, Natural Temper followed by To The Limit still fuels SY anyway. --Xanshiz (talk) 21:03, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't call the healer unaffected. 4 regen on recuperation were mighty. --Krschkr (talk) 11:43, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
 * 4 regen reucp is certainly mighty, but requiring 19 resto, it wasn't even possible pre-nerf. --Xanshiz (talk) 18:39, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Finetuning depending on how strong splinter is
Right now, the ST + Inept is as follows:

With runes, that gives 20 communing, 14 spawning, 14 channeling, 5 motivation for a splinter that deals 47 damage with 5 procs. An alternative would be this:

With runes, with would be 20 communing, 19 spawning. Inept drops one point from insp in order to reach 4 motivation for mending refrain. This gives a four charge ST along with beefier spirits due to 5 extra points in spawning. It replaces splinter with Brutal Weapon, which provides +18 damage at 20 communing.

Just something to try out, and it is entirely dependent on how strong splinter is with the current setup. --Xanshiz (talk) 22:20, 1 May 2020 (UTC)


 * This is how I have been running the ST and Inept before the nerf. The loss of Splinter doesn't seem to matter too much, because as you said earlier: The paragon is barely fast enough to use it up and I had the experience that when I'm not a melee character myself the foes spread out more, due to not binding the physicals onto myself, so Splinter gets less effective.
 * I think Brutal Weapon is a good (if not great) option for the Paragon.
 * After the nerf I tried to keep the 4 proc's on ST and that means that Mending Refrain (with +3 regen) is not even possible anymore on the ST. I think using it on the Inept is a fine option, as it's barely any energy investment (cast once and forget about it, if the player keeps up the echoes properly). I'm currently checking if I can give one copy of Fall Back to the Inept as well, seeing as the Inept currently has 3 e-management skills (Arcane Conundrum, P-Dran and Drain Ench) and I think that 2 should be sufficient. Just have to figure out the right attribute split. --Haquillo (talk) 08:20, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I did some runs in CoF, Vlox, and DoA with both setups, and I kinda like the brutal weapon variant as well. I'll go ahead and list it for now. I normally dislike res on the ST, but I found that the only times I ever "wiped" weren't actually wipes, but rather the three Me/Rt's died somehow, leaving no resses alive after retreating. I think the beefiness of the spirits justifies it. Could also do as you suggest and put 2x paragon skills on the inept for a third res on the surgers, but attributes are a very awkward 5-way split. An alternative is to replace drain enchantment with res sig on the inept, although I normally only take res sig if I have to, and it seems like we have a lot of flexibility here. --Xanshiz (talk) 10:25, 2 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Could also use a condition removal on the ST instead of the res. There already is plenty of hex removal with 4x Shatter Hex, but there is only one (very powerful) condition removal in Mend Body and Soul. So could either go /Mo and get something to remove conditions there or possibly add a MBaS at 3 (+4) resto on the ST - he might be too busy healing then though instead of focussing on keeping up the spirits. --Haquillo (talk) 18:03, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
 * This would depend on how the hero prioritized spirits versus MB&S. I definitely wouldn't want it healing instead of casting spirits at the beginning of the fight. The ST is a weird bar for that reason because, while it isn't a "busy" bar at all, you really don't want it to be distracted if it ever needs to put up spirits.
 * Another thing -- are conditions really threatening at all? Only really daze on heroes and blind on the player. Most other conditions can pretty much be ignored, especially with so much passive regen. --Xanshiz (talk) 01:59, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Vote for brutal weapon. In areas where conditions are a problem consider recovery over recuperation on the BiP. The thing is that conditions never are particularly threatening. Against afflicted (Broad Head Arrow) you have displacement and recovery. Against mandragors you have shatter hex on steroids. --Krschkr (talk) 11:41, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Daggers
I listed a dagger variant to try. Presumably this will either a) be deleted due to being inferior, or b) get its own page if it's comparable, or c) remain as a variant. Player DPS is quite respectable (chance at 21 channeling splinter!), but you lose SY and the inept, both of which are big losses. It's main redeeming factor is it's probably more fun to play a DPS build than a SY spam build.

Give it a go and let me know what you think. --Xanshiz (talk) 06:05, 7 May 2020 (UTC)


 * What about using a primary paragon as the SW-provider? wouldn't be at 20 or 21 but would provide more defense (since the Inept falls away) with "ToF!" and possibly Burning Refrain together with Anthem of Flame.

[build prof=P/Rt cha=12 comma=8+3 lea=10+4][Splinter Weapon@16][Ancestor's Rage@16][Anthem of Flame@18][Burning Refrain@18]["They're on Fire!"@18]["Stand Your Ground!"@15]["Fall Back!"@15]["Incoming!"@15][/build]


 * Or go for 7+3 command and use 4 Motivation with Mending Refrain instead of Burning Refrain --Haquillo (talk) 12:19, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
 * IMO burning refrain is pretty bad, which sucks. It activates less often then you think. Blazing Finale would work much better. It's AoE, lasts longer, hero will maintain it on half the party at all times, and isn't conditional.
 * Also, wouldn't hero spamming anthem of flame cause him to fall behind at times? He's gonna stop to cast when your running between groups, which can leave the player out of its range potentially. It would be extremely beneficial to know if the hero spams "They're on Fire!" on recharge. If it does, awesome.
 * Lastly, if Hero will spam ToF to maintain echos, then you can drop anthem of flame for Weapon of Shadow. It's the next best choice for blind. I also second the P/Rt option, as leadership will help energy goodly. GFTE is also a good choice to help hero maintain energy. Willarddog (talk) 23:50, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
 * It should probably be a Rt/P. I'd rather have 20 channeling for a buffed up splinter, since it's about 47% more damage than at 16 channeling.
 * I haven't had the opportunity to this this much, so I don't know how the hero uses certain other paragon skills. It won't stop to use anthem of flame while running around, which is good since fall back/incoming will cover those scenarios. But it will still fall behind. --Xanshiz (talk) 23:25, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Good point with splinter. That kinda nullifies any point with the paragon. Willarddog (talk) 18:44, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

BiP
Also, is life worth taking on the BiP? He'll be dragging behind a bit trying to maintain it. Without minions i don't see it being as useful. Dropping Life gives an optional slot.

I suggest taking Strip Enchantment; this enables you to drop drain ench. on the Inept without losing the amount of ench. removal skills you have. This will give you a slot for "Fallback!". An easy way to manage the attribute spread is to run three copies with only 3 points in command. At @7, Fallback lasts 7 seconds for permanent uptime. Simply drop Insp. down to 4+1 and increase command to 3. On the E-surges, this allows you to go 11+2 FC (drop the sup rune!) by dropping Insp. from 6+1 down to 5+1.

alternatively, only needing 3 points in command also frees you up to run 3 Spiritual Pain mesmers, and running fallback on 1 E-Surge, the Inept, and the ST. This eliminates the Rez on ST dilemma. Willarddog (talk) 18:44, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Dropping Life in the BiP: you could if you want the hero to lag less, although a 140 hp party spike heal is very nice, particularly on a solo Resto comp. I think this comes down to preference. It will make the comp slightly weaker in exchange for slightly increased quality of life.
 * Running 3x fall back at 3 command: one issue is heroes always have a delay in between casts, so 3x fall back does not mean 100% uptime. Also, this change significantly hurts party-wide energy management. You have an extra expensive shout AND fewer points in insp AND fewer insp spells AND a third copy of spain. The BiP will now be far busier casting BiP AND healing itself, making its job as a solo resto is harder. --Xanshiz (talk) 00:23, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Life is preference, true. I think the one way of going about it is to drop life, and make it optional alongside with strip enchantment. I think that any hero lagging behind could be frustrating.


 * Regarding the Illusion Mesmer: It's been brought up multiple times on this page that drain enchantment on the Inept is a waste of a skill slot. The Inept already has a pretty energy lite bar combined with great e-management via conundrum & pdrain.
 * Drain enchantment needs to be replaced with a more useful option.
 * A visualization of the bar:

to be thorough, let's explore our options for the last slot:


 * [[Finale of Restoration@8] Consistent healing throughout the fight maintainable on two members. Usefulness and efficiency debatable.
 * [[Aria of Zeal@8] Gives 4 energy to every caster in the party, for a total of 28 energy. Not affected by Fast Casting, unfortunately.
 * [[Aria of Restoration@8] 62 health party-wide heal (except player). Heal might proc on full health hero, wasting it.
 * [[Ballad of Restoration@8] 47 health party-wide prot. lesser heal, but more useful than above.
 * [[Frustration@20] Only useful for increased damage vs single targets. Energy intensive.
 * [[Calculated Risk@20] Spammable, weaker empathy. Decent choice.
 * [[Hex Eater Signet@10] Good option. It is known that heros are hesitant to use shatter hex unless it will deal damage; this works well in those situations. Also gives some energy.
 * [[Epidemic] Spread deep wound? Interesting Concept. Could work, as deep wound is the only condition on the team.
 * [[Resurrection Signet] Rez option. 1.5s cast time, very nice.
 * [["Fall Back!"@7] (Drop Insp from 5+1 to 4+1, +3 to command) IMO the best option. More below.

After looking at all of these, I think fallback is the best option. Regarding energy, PDrain goes down from giving 21 to 19 energy. Not a big deal. You still have more energy than you need. Let me expand more on why I think triple fallback works: First, taking fallback on the Illusion lets you play around a bit with the team comp. With triple Fallback, you don't need it to last more than 7 seconds. This means you only need 3 points in command. This makes it easy to implement on the Illusion bar, as the attribute split is already wonky with Mending Refrain. This also means you can decrease Command on the E-surges down from 6 to 3. This gives you a few options to optimize the e-surges:
 * 1) Increase Inspiration from 6+1+4 (11) to 7+1+4 (12). 2 more energy on Power Drain. Slightly stronger e-management. However, this results in 8 wasted Attribute points.
 * 2) Drop Insp 6+1+4 (11) to 5+1+4 (10). Lose 1 energy on drain ench, 2 on pdrain. Change FC from 10+3+4 (17) to 11+2+4 (17). Slightly weaker e-management, but 40 more max HP.
 * 3) Drop Insp 6+1+4 (11) to 5+1+4 (10). Lose 1 energy on drain ench, 2 on pdrain. Change FC from 10+3+4 (17) to 11+3+4 (18). CD on Drain enchant & PDrain drops from 10->9. Net equal on energy management.

Regardless of which you choose, there is only a net upside to running 3 command.

In addition to all this, running fallback with 3 command means you can switch fallback/FomF between one of the e-surges and ST. This way you get to keep the 19 spawning power break point, without having to carry rez on the ST. Everyone agrees that Rez on ST is not ideal. Also, it's not like fallback hurts the ST's energy. The ST already has super beefy spirits, 4 charges of ST, and won't be spamming splinter weapon either, as brutal weapon lasts a whopping 80 seconds. There is more energy than before to use fallback.

Putting Fallback on the ST, Inept, and 1 E-surge allows you to play around with the 3rd mesmer:

You could add a third copy of FoMF to be safe, but you don't have to necessarily. Not if you have beefy ST + SY!, as well as beefy resto spells, Recup, and mending refrain. However, if you're concerned with a third Spiritual Pain taking up more BiPs, then you have a legitimate point. You could just go with Drain Enchantment with Spiritual Pain. This would solve the energy problem of a third SPain, while not burdening the BiP, while giving big damage. One way to tweak that is to go 12+3 Fast Casting and 3+1 Inspiration; you have less energy return from you insp. spells, but you have two of them anyways instead of just one. This way you hit all the juicy 19 FC breakpoints. This would increase your damage even more. You could alternatively consider skills Empathy, Power Spike, Overload, etc which are less energy intensive as SPain while also bringing something else to the table.

Another way to go about it is to stay 11+2 FC, drop Insp from 6+1 to 4+1, and increase Illusion to 5+1. Then, take [[Wandering Eye@10] in the last slot. Alternatively, go 10+3 FC (which you were going to do anyways as a fallback E-Surge), and do either a 4/7 or even 6/6 split. Either more damage, or better energy management.
 * Aside, honestly this might be better for survivability; lower health means more effective shelter, meaning its easier to heal up a bar. That's how it works, right? lol. Theoretically, if we have super shelter+Union+Displacement alongside party-wide +7 regen, what's the big deal with dropping max health by stacking up on superior and major runes? It just gives me 55 monk vibes. You could make the whole team a little more efficient and have better attribute spreads this way, all while making it easier for the BiP to redbar. Heals become more efficient the lower max HP is. I mean this is the same arguement for Radiants over Prodigys; prodigy's gets wasted because shelter blocks the damage anyways. Thoughts? You don't have to go full 55 mesmers, just add a major where you would place a minor here or there.

Discussion above also mentioned that a third SPain might not be as effective vs physical mobs, so wandering eye could be a great fit. 83 nearby AoE damage on a 6 second CD definitely beats out a third SPain IMO. It is also effective on caster mobs. Lastly, it is less energy intensive.

You could potentially take [[Arcane Conundrum@10] instead of Drain ench; a second Arcane Conundrum would be nice for more reliable interrupts for the whole team. However, AC only wins out energy wise if it hits 4 or more foes, which is unreliable. Probably not the best.

The big picture benefit of doing all of these changes is that you get to keep Rez OFF 19 spawning ST, maintain fallback uptime, and bring a second wandering eye (which is significant because you cant bring 2x wandering eye on the Illusion!) Willarddog (talk) 20:59, 15 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Here's what I'm talking about for the team, visually:

-- Willarddog (talk) 21:57, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I haven't been impressed with wandering eye when I've tried it. Also, 3x fall back is probably too energy consuming. to be worth it. However, perhaps Fall Back could be listed as a variant on the ST bar, and strip enchantment/recovery could be listed as a variant on the BiP bar. The thing is arcane conundrum isn't consistent energy management, and the inept hero loves to spam inept. As a result, if you play the comp and watch its energy, you'll fine it sometimes dips low, so drain enchant gets some value. --Xanshiz (talk) 00:21, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Good to know that wandering eye "hybrid" isn't worth it. It might have been with +6 HR, but bygones are bygones (rip). However, how is triple fallback really that bad for energy? It's understandable that Arcane conundrum isn't consistent, I just read the wiki page:


 * "February 05, 2019 update; please verify changes to AI behavior.
 * The AI will cast this on foes that do not cast spells, whether or not there are enemy spell casters adjacent to the target."


 * What exactly is this saying? Is it saying that this is the new hero AI behavior (which sucks balls the size of watermelons), or is it saying that this is old behavior that needs to be tested on and is most likely much better? Obviously the question has been most likely answered, as the skill is mainbar on all illusion mesmers,  but I can't test it myself to know for myself.


 * Back to triple fallback energy issues, I still don't see your point as a whole. ST should have no energy issues with fallback. current e-surge mesmers should have no energy issues with fallback (atleast more than before). And if the Inept does dip low sometimes, isn't that what BiP is for? Also, if one of the fallback e-surges no longer has fallback, but now has drain enchantment +FoMF (instead of wandering eye), doesn't that mean that he uses less BiPs, and balance out your "BiP balance"? The end result is that you have an esurge with healthier e-management than before, and inept with with slightly worse e-management, and an ST without a rez (with the plus of having that rez affected by fast casting now).Willarddog (talk) 03:40, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Before the 2019 update, heroes would use arcane conundrum on any enemy regardless of whether they cast spells. After the update, I think heroes got a bit "smarter" so that bullet is now inaccurate, hence the note to verify behavior. Regardless, what I meant is that arcane conundrum often gives energy sustain in one big chunk when a ball of foes dies at once. However, since the foes die at some unknown time in the future, it's not as reliable as an instant-return energy management spell. As a result, if you, say, drop drain enchant for fall back, you'll notice the inept randomly runs into energy issues despite still having two energy sustain spells.
 * ST could have energy issues. On mercenary mesmerway (where brutal weapon is replaced with signet of creation), the ST still sometimes runs low on energy (despite having an extra energy management skill). Here, BoC returns more and the spirits are cast less frequently, so energy is likely less of a concern. So it's certainly a possibility to put a 3rd copy on the ST. --Xanshiz (talk) 04:15, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Remove Hex
Per earlier discussions here & on the non-merc page, remove hex fills a gap where heros are reluctant to use shatter hex if it won't damage enemies. I've mainbarred it and made fomf a variant. I also added Shatter Hex as a variant on the fomf mesmers. Lastly, I added a note to drop command and raise insp on the fallback mesmers if you decide to go triple fallback. One small note here is that 13 inspiration is the breakpoint for Hex Eater Signet, increasing it from 4 to 5 allies affected, as well as more energy return. This breakpoint is only achievable however if you put it on said fallback mesmer with 8+1 insp. Willarddog (talk) 20:35, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
 * You already have 4x hex removals at 5s CD, so I don't think remove hex should be main barred. Heroes will still use shatter hex as a general hex removal. This substitution makes more sense on the non-merc page since you have fewer ESurgers, but on the Merc page, it probably doesn't belong.
 * The problem with Hex Eater Signet is that it's a really long CD. It's hard to justify dropping a 5s CD, 150 armor ignoring AoE damage hex removal for a 25s CD, 0 damage hex removal.
 * Let's keep conversations about changes on this page. I don't really follow the non-merc page, and it's a separate composition so not everything can be directly translated (i.e. hex removal). --Xanshiz (talk) 04:04, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Hex eater is a variant is situations where you're largely facing caster enemy groups that use spells like Panic or other deadly anti-caster hexes. It's known that heros are reluctant to use shatter hex if it will not damage an enemy; facing all ranged enemies can mean that hexes are not removed as quickly as they should. Hex eater helps in these situations. Hence, a variant. I really just copied+pasted the variant skill section from the non-merc page, feel that as much as possible the formatting should mirror as they're almost the exact same team build. The argument for remove hex is the same. I'll just make it a variant instead of mainbar though, for general situations you're right that 4x shatter should be enough. Willarddog (talk) 12:36, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I did a brief test on the wind riders outside rata sum -- the idea that "it's known that heros are reluctant to use shatter hex if it will not damage an enemy" seems to be false -- heroes used shatter hex just as I'd expect. The issue with Panic is that if HES is interrupted, you're kinda screwed, and HES only encourages bunching. However, I think it's fine to list as a variant in areas with AoE hexes.
 * As far as formatting -- let's not worry about "mirroring" the two pages. If anything, this should mirror the formatting of mercenary mesmerway, since that's the setup this build is based off. --Xanshiz (talk) 17:18, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I did a partial rewrite of the changes you made. Several are good, but I wanted to describe here the reasoning for removing some:
 * res skills on mesmers -- if fewer res skills are preferred, it would be best to take it off the ST rather than the mesmers. You want high fast-casting resses.
 * Optionals on the N/Rt -- Armor of the Unfeeling is totally out of place. And death pact is very risky, since a) you generally don't want resses on your healers, not to mention your only healer, and b) if the rested hero is spiked again and the BiP insta-dies as a result, you are almost guaranteed to wipe.
 * Formatting -- mentioned above, but let's not worry about being overly picky about matching the two pages. Different people are working on them, so they are bound to diverge. If anything, use mercenary mesmerway as the "master template." --Xanshiz (talk) 18:17, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
 * good points. makes sense. Willarddog (talk) 18:42, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Database error when rating
I cannot rate the build. Upon trying to submit my rating, it gives me this: Jorre22225G (talk) 15:42, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Yup rating is currently broken as reported on PvXwiki:Curse noticeboard. -Chieftainalex (talk) 17:45, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Alright, thanks for letting me know! Good thing I backed-up my rating text :D Jorre22225G (talk) 18:21, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Anthem of Flame replacing "They're on Fire!"
When playing this build, the amount of checking around when you don't take a hero with Anthem of Flame is not worth it over sacrificing a slot on one of your heroes for this auto-maintanance. However, I was wondering if at that point "They're on Fire" can be replaced by any other skill? I don't really understand why this skill is on the player's bar anyway, as there's no source of burning in the whole build (that is unless you take a fire ele as replacement of the Ineptitude). Anthem of Flame also doesn't do anything, because no heroes in the current build have any attack skills, causing no burning. I'm just wondering if there's still a reason to keep that shout. GamingReviewsYT (talk) 18:00, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
 * What do you mean by "checking around"? "They're on Fire!" is strictly better than Anthem of Flame for the purpose of maintaining Heroic Refrain, since it has no cast time and costs no energy. A hero with anthem of flame is going to spend 1.75s every 10s casting anthem of flame instead of fighting/interrupting, and anthem of flame can also cause the hero to lag behind the rest of the party. Nonetheless, if you would prefer your heroes to take the responsibility of maintaining HR instead of you, you could take it on the ineptitude (listed as a skill variant), in which case you are right, there is no point in taking "They're on Fire!" yourself. --Xanshiz (talk) 18:23, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I understand what you mean, and you have a point. About the lagging, however, I 'lagg' all the time having to stop every 10 seconds to make sure everyone is within earshot of the shout, so I'm losing equal amount of time (for me, personally, perhaps there's a more optimized way to play it but I don't like being glued to the keyboard all the time, especially every 10 seconds). It's cool to have an optional skillslot for you as the player, as it allows you to be just a little more offensive, or have skills like Blazing Finale that last 43 seconds, or other defensive skills that renew on chants or shouts, that can also be put on all the characters (latter is probably less useful, but still). I happily trade a little bit of DPS for finger-muscle fatigue :P GamingReviewsYT (talk) 20:02, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
 * It can definitely be tedious to always make sure everyone is within earshot! Fortunately, in between fights, you usually don't have to worry too much, since heroes stagger "Fall Back!" nicely to renew HR. Having an extra skill slot on the player isn't all that useful anyway, since outside of the core bar, everything is completely filler. I'd maybe take "Fall Back! and drop it from a hero. --Xanshiz (talk) 23:58, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Make the player bar more aggressive?
User:Xanshiz/P/any Heroic Refrain Spear -- I've been experimenting with the damage variant as an alternative to the current barwith Save Yourselves. You deal about twice as much damage, but lose out on the defense from SY. However, given how insanely robust the team already is, I found that losing SY wasn't noticed. However, I was also only doing Zaishen Missions and Vanquishes and not running around in DoA. --Xanshiz (talk) 09:06, 10 December 2020 (UTC)