User talk:Phenaxkian/Team - 2 Man 55 Farm/Archive1

i think I've just about finished writing it up, however me and a friend are going to test run the build and i was thinking of trying to get a video of it, or some screens, so I'm not sure wether to leave it in stubs, or move it up to trial.... Phenaxkian 00:22, 13 July 2007 (CEST)

Few things...
-- Grumpy (Talk | Contrib) 00:44, 13 July 2007 (CEST)
 * You cannot rebirth a 55. 25% of 1HP is 0.
 * What can this duo do that a solo 55 ele cannot do? In other words, what's the advantage of having 2 people?
 * Unless you are farming blood necros, what's the point of spell breaker? I know you mention preventing of disenchant, but it only lasts 18sec right now with 45sec recharge. once it's over and there are disenchanters, you are still dead.
 * I realize you have frozen burst which could potentially counter some amount of kiting, but if you don't kill all your mob in 8 seconds of frozen time, most of them might survive. Even worse, some of the kiters might start attacking your monk.
 * +1@20% div favor would be quite useless. Only boost it gives is 1 extra second for your spell breaker. Enchantment mod on the other hand will increase to 21.6sec plus, happens 100% of the time. Try adding blessed aura to the equation, then you are looking at nearly 30 seconds.
 * Blessed sig right now seems pretty useless. It only gives 6 energy boost.
 * How does conjure flame help at all?
 * Where do you actually farm with this?

Answering point in order:

 * I understand that but if you took say another set of armor you could adjust your armor according to the D.P. to get better health.
 * The advantage of having 2 people is that the actual 55 doesn't need to maintain the enchantments, and therefor has normal energy regeneration, and doesn't need to use up skill slots on these skills, meaning the actual 55 can deal more damage quicker, and perhaps increasing run time.
 * The point of spell breaker is to prevent your enchantments from being striped before you get a chance to kill those that strip enchantments, and if they're still alive....well that's just bad luck i guess, it might be an idea to farm places where there aren't as many disenchanters.
 * You only need to keep the enemies slowed for Savannah heat, the others do instant damage and don't last, meaning they shouldn't kite unless it's SH, And the monk should be quite far back to stay out of aggro, while still being able to maintain enchantments.
 * I see where your coming from, it will probably be best to have a 20% longer enchantment mod, i will change that for both characters, i suppose i could add blessed aura in, but then i would have to change either purge conditions or rebirth, which is viable i suppose,but that would depend entirely where you farm. Can i also say that if you have 20/20 mods you have a chance of reducing the rechage time of spell breaker
 * I understand that Blessed sig seems pointless, however i thought the monk needed an energy, management skill, and this seemed like the best choice without changing to a mesmer secondary, and if you were to put blessed aura in it would increase to 9 energy, but you have to remember you don't need as much energy from it as a normal 55 because your not maintaining as many enchantments, so you have better energy regen.
 * Conjure flame and fire attunement weren't ment to be used in the sense they were created for, i put them in so they could act as a cover for PS, and i put fire attunement in instead of conjure flame because it helps with e-management, that's really the only reason it's there.
 * I have yet to test this build out, however I'm waiting for he person who's going to be the monk to come back from holiday which will be sometime next week,I merely thought to post the build up beforehand so that before we actually test it we can see peoples thoughts on it and see if they notice any problems (such as the one's you've mentioned) so we change it accordingly before then.

I hope that covers all your questions, and thanks for posting, you've pointed out a few things I hadn't thought of (mainly about spell breakers length), and i will make the required adjustments in a moment. Phenaxkian 13:48, 13 July 2007 (CEST)

Response:
GL with ur build. -- Grumpy (Talk | Contrib) 22:57, 14 July 2007 (CEST)
 * I don't think you quite got the point of the rebirth part. When you are a 55 and die. Your HP becomes 1. When someone tries to rebirth you (or any res that doesn't put you at full health), the ressed (55) instantly dies. There is no time for changing of equipment. You will never come back to life. Consider sunspear rebirth.
 * Monsters don't kite away only from aoe skills. Infact, it has nothing to do with aoe damage. Monsters will kite when there are more than 3 monsters who's HP gets low (about 50% hp or so). Then they retreat away from the source of damage. So even if you have 0 aoe skills, and you spread out your damage, monsters will kite. Well... in hard mode that is. Also, PBAoE such as inferno are still infact aoe.
 * I did a little math and your total damage output goes to about 631 damage (without the recast which of course is possible). This is plenty to kill any casters (who may be far away), but high level rangers and warrior opponents will survive. Specially with kiting into the equation. Many ele farmers often seek towards things like crystal wave, teinai's crystals and shockwave (which also can't be interrupted, shockwave doesn't peirce def, but still does large damage with short cast time). This also opens up a possiblity of ward against foes to prevent further kiting but will deal less damage vs time due to longer recharge. With the EoE into the damage addition, they probably will die, but requries you to at least kill off 1 enemy.
 * Once the monsters do kite, your monk indeed does have to run away. Which negates the possiblity of casting things like purge conditions, healing breeze etc. The monk can maintain 7 upkeeps on the ele with just blessed sig. So you may want to consider bringing lots of maintains and fewer repeated casts. Do note however, many protective enchants may become useless once the prot spirit is cast on top of it. Life Bond + Balth Spirit may not help your 55 stay alive, but will give you plenty of energy boost quite a bit, opening up more options like succor.
 * It is possible to use protective bond (at 3 energy per hit) instead of spirit. This will lower the damage enough to negate the need for healing breeze as the damage is only 2 per hit now. But this requires you to keep life bond, balth spirit and essense bond plus blessed sig + mantra of inscrptions just to counter it. It may sound like a lot, but it may be worth considering since you may not be able to cast healing breeze with the monk. Something like watchful spirit can be added for more healing as well. The +4pip alone with bond is just as strong as +10pip with spirit.
 * Do keep in mind that 55 ele cannot tank as much as a 55 monk could due to the fact that it doesn't get healed through divine favor. Consider for an alternate something like killing yourself once, and equip -20hp offhand instead to have 13HP. with prot spirit, you will only be hit for a wonderful 1 damage.

responding to the response (O_o):

 * I had completely forgotten about that, and so it makes no sense to really have a rez skill, because otherwise your dead instantly from all the enemies....
 * Well i understand that (now at least) but like you mention later on, for the most part casters should be dead, and i would have thought EoE would finish the rest off, i have yet to establish if this is doable in HM (i would have thought so) but in NM the time the AI take to think RUN! is about 5 seconds (about the length of SH)and i know that in HM it's considerably quicker, which is why i had frozen burst, to reduce kitting for long enough to finish.
 * Like you say it does around 630 odd damage, which should be enough to kill casters, like you said, however you also said you didn't include recasts, which will add a great deal of damage to it, with inferno and flame djinn's hitting for about 150 per cast every 1-secs each. This should kill of at least the rangers, and with EoE placed right it should finish of warriors as well (I'm saying should here, but this would depend entirely on the mob)
 * I've had a think about that, and i have decided on a change of build based on what you've been saying-which I'll post below
 * look at build/builds below
 * i think that might be a better idea so I'll probably go for a 13hp ele. as it will probably work better with the new build I'm thinking of anyway.

Ur both wrong, u can rez a 55 by switching its -50 off hand for an -20, or removing a piece of armor u idiots, its clear that none of u knows anithing about 55ing

The new build/s: This is my first idea for the monk [build prof=Monk/Ranger Divine=12+1+3 Beast=12][Blessed aura][Balthazar's spirit][Essence bond] [Watchful spirit][Succor][Edge of extinction][Spell breaker][Blessed sig][/build] This would mean the ele could change P.S. for protective bond, the monk would be maintaining 5 enchantments, meaning they would lose 1pip of energy however blessed sig will be giving 15 energy a cast, so this easily combats it (I've tested this briefly on an ele prim. (which maxes blessed at 3) and it works fine.) And because the monk would be casting succor on the ele the ele recives no draw back to it. This would also mean the ele could knock an attribute point off of prot. and still ahve the same enegry loss from PB allowing them to increase water magic more (meaning a longer slow time). This build also means the monk could take the attribute points from healing and put beast mastery up, increasing the damage EoE does.

My other idea was simply that instead of Balthazar's spirit in the above build, the monk would cast PB on the ele, however this would mean that the monk would be losing energy on each hit as well as the -1pip from all the enchants. so this probably wouldn't be a good idea.

i personally think the first ideas better (this way you can cover your enchants. as you like by casting the more important ones (PB) first and the not so important ones (say succor) last). Plus this means the ele is getting another sorce of income from Balths spirit. Phenaxkian 22:27, 15 July 2007 (CEST)

RE:RE:RE :P
It's quite impossible for the ele to cast protective bond. It's loss of 3 energy per hit only when it's 13 & higher attrib which ele cannot achieve. With 4 or more energy loss per hit, it's quite impossible to counter even with as little as 3 enemies and manage to pull off any attacks. You don't need to use PB at all if your HP is 13 but if you are using PB, you must do something like this... [build prof=Monk/Warrior Protection=13 divine=7][Protective Bond][Balthazar's spirit][Life Bond][Essence bond][Blessed sig][Optional][Optional][Optional][/build] This way, each hit the ele recieves, the monk gets 2 energy and losses 3 -- net change of -1 energy per hit. The loss of that 1 energy is hard to counter with blessed sig alone (that's 12 energy per 10 sec which translates to ~2 enemies, no sin). The attrib stats are the bare minimum to keep up. With mantra of inscriptions, still only ~4. Which the numbers seem pretty sad, so I would rather take back the suggestion of PB entirely. What most PB invinci monk does is something like this (55er, for referrence). [build prof=Monk/Warrior Protection=10+3 healing=10+3][Protective Bond][Balthazar's spirit][Essence bond][Mending][Blessed sig][Bonetti's Defense][Optional][Optional][/build] Rest of stats are on w/e u want and 2 optionals are attacks. That way there are no problems with energy and HP is nearly unmoved. PB monks can tank a LOT more than PS monks can (PS can tank max of 15, PB can tank 50+ easily), that's why I thought for a second that you could use it.

Sry for giving false hopes with PB.

On a separate note...
 * Essense Bond will give energy to the caster (ie the monk), so casting Essense bond on the build you posted would be quite useless. Also, you can take blessed aura off right after casting Spell Breaker, so that's also 1 less enchant to keep up and I think you should keep up mending for extra safety, even if it's low like +1 or 2 regen. It may be countering the tipping point as well as counter minor degens (bleeding?).
 * The 13hp should be always considered as a variant only when 55 fails or when died of w/e reason. B/c once you killed something, your DP goes away and you suddenly have 85hp taking (somewhat) big hits. So it's annoying to keep killing yourself.
 * You mentioned previously that you were planning to use somthing like fire attunement for cover enchant or upkeeps. But once you recast PS, it goes on top. You can do something like PS then HB. So the HB is on top and it's not a big deal if it gets stripped, its only a 2 sec recharge. Plus, with SB, enchant strip isn't even possible to begin with except vs well, ava grenth, chilled beans.
 * For energy management, something like essense bond and/or balth spirit casted upon self will give more energy. Also, generally cover enchants should be quick to cast (under 1 sec) to prevent interruption (you could get away with 1 sec cast when fighting slow attackers and mesmers won't be able to interrupt you b/c of SB) and quick to recharge.

This is what I would try to do... [build prof=Ele/Monk Protection=8 Healing=2][Protective Spirit][Healing Breeze][Optional][Optional][Optional][Optional][Optional][Optional][/build] [build prof=Monk/Ranger healing=6+3 Divine=12+1+3 beast=11][Balthazar's spirit][Mending][Watchful Spirit][Succor][Blessed Sig][Edge of Extinction][Blessed Aura][Spell Breaker][/build] Then there would be total of 4(HB)+3(Mending)+2(Watchful Spirit)+1(Succor)= +10 and the ele would get 1 energy per hit +5 energy regen (+1 from succor is really minor and can be ignored since you have nearly infinite energy from BS and norm +4regen. I just added succor for free +1 HP regen). Succor would be replaced by Sunspear Rebirth Signet. WS also contribs to emergency healing from far.

The ele has 6 slots of w/e. In the case of 13hp, the ele wouldn't need to cast HB. Incase there is some sort of degen, the ele can boost up healing.

I think I wrote enough for the day... but on a final note. I admire your attempt to farm areas which are most frequently un-farmable. But I question how much of it there are. -- Grumpy (Talk | Contrib) 19:59, 16 July 2007 (CEST)

We're gona need another page or sommit -_-.....
Thanks for posting yet again (seeming to be the only one who is other than me O_o) this last post has seemed to really help (IMO anyway)-i like the idea of the monk build you posted (the last one) so that would probably be the change to make, as it sticks with what a originally intended (the EoE thing) while still maintaining the enchants. What I'll probably do with the ele is-I'll probably leave it the same-except switch Fire attunement for HB (I'll probably shift a few points from energy storage to healing to get some regen out of it) so it'll probably look something like this:

[build prof=Elementalist/Monk Fire=12+1+3 Energy=7+3 Protection=9 water=5+3 Healing=4][Protective Spirit][Healing breeze][Frozen Burst][Savannah heat] [Flame Djinn's haste][Inferno][Glyph of concentration][Rebirth][/build] [build prof=Monk/Ranger healing=6+3 Divine=12+1+3 beast=11][Balthazar's spirit][Mending][Watchful Spirit][Succor][Blessed Sig][Edge of Extinction][Blessed Aura][Spell Breaker][/build]

this would basically be the same ele build, except with slightly less energy, and you'd have HB to cast as a cover with a +5 regen (just), so it'd still be doing the same damage, the only problem with switching fire attunement for HB, is perhaps a slight energy problem, so if it was used in an area with low interruption etc. i suppose you could switch GLoC instead of fire attunement, so you still keep your energy up, (bearing in mind you'd also ahve +5 energy regen from succor)

I think that's just about all i can think of ATM.....so i'll call it here. And TY for the side note ^^-it's much appreciated.Phenaxkian 23:15, 16 July 2007 (CEST)

You can throw in an archive b4 u stick test on it
You really don't have to worry about energy. If you do find it lacking, throw essense bond in the ele's build. It will give LOT more than what fire attunement will give. you won't be needing a large pool of energy either, so don't be afraid to lower energy storage. It looks plausible right now. My only worry is that the new spots you might be aiming for may already be taken by solo obsidian flesh farmers. -- Grumpy (Talk | Contrib) 23:35, 17 July 2007 (CEST)

Who cares about Obsidian flesh farmers....
i can see why you say i shouldn't have to worry about energy-but i s'pose it all comes down to the size of the group, but one rounds of the offensive skills, costs roughly 50energy i think, of course this is easily counter-able, as you will be getting +5energy regen, and balth. spirit will be adding some energy so it shouldn't be much of a problem like you say. I'm not to worried about the other farmers, because although they will have the advantage of soloing, this build has the advantage of speed, meaning you can get more runs in the same time (hopefully) and you can probably farm in some places you can't solo, due to the fact there's 2 of you (granted the monk can't do any damage but it keeps the eles' energy up and stops spells with SB-for a while anywho) so this should provide a means to get to some of the more akward-less farmed spots, and in turn better loot due to the area not being nerfed as much-and with GW:EN coming out soon-we need to swoop in the areas dropping good loot-before people can come up with a solo build and get it completely nerfed.....as usual.....*cough*....ok so I solo farm in various places and builds big whoop :)...... anywho-I'm thinking of changing to the above builds, then sticking it into the trial stage. Phenaxkian 00:00, 19 July 2007 (CEST)