Archive talk:N/Mo Martyr Master

Discussion
Discuss.---Canderouss


 * Skip Heal Area. You could slot up a way more effective skill like Dwayna's Sorrow. [[image:ViYadriaanzsig.jpg|19px]]Adr iaa nz 13:44, 31 May 2008 (EDT)


 * Foul Feast! And get another elite. Also, how is daze a counter? It'll transfer to a minion too -- [[Image:SazSigPic.jpg|19px]] Sazzy  ( talk ) 14:05, 31 May 2008 (EDT)
 * take Foul Feast imo, martyr is like...ewwwww -- Infested Hydralisk [[image:InfestedHydralisk_sig2.jpg|19px]] ( Talk * Contributions ) 14:08, 31 May 2008 (EDT)
 * agree with everyone else. take foul feast, drop heal area, and get yourself a decent elite.--Reason.decrystallized 14:14, 31 May 2008 (EDT)

You should replace heal area by dwayna's sorrow and dark bond by signet of lost souls --Nikaulus 14:13, 31 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Can heroes handle DS well? Tried it like a year ago and it didn't work out too well -- [[Image:SazSigPic.jpg|19px]] Sazzy  ( talk ) 14:18, 31 May 2008 (EDT)

Lol I have almost same build at my page for almost a year... but its crap... --Taan (T/C) 14:46, 31 May 2008 (EDT) get jagged bones instead of martyr, foulfeast bone minions and death nova to make it an minion bomber as the conditions will cause your minions to explode
 * lol no point in this. :P --  Super Igor   *ninja!!*  15:53, 31 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Seriously, just use foul feast lol--[[Image:Relyk Purifying Veil Sig.jpg|19px]]R ELYK   (Talk  |  Edits)  18:23, 31 May 2008 (EDT)
 * In areas with Disease and massive condi spread, Foul Feast doesn't do much. Martyr, Cautery, etc... work quite well there, but we don't have a proper build with these skills for some reason. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 21:58, 31 May 2008 (EDT)

Changed bar a bit. &mdash; Rapta   (talk|contribs) 23:01, 31 May 2008 (EDT)


 * looks good, thanks.---Canderouss


 * meh only see much use of this against Mandragor in eotn tbh.. -- Infested Hydralisk [[image:InfestedHydralisk_sig2.jpg|19px]] ( Talk * Contributions ) 06:36, 1 June 2008 (EDT)
 * And then Foul Feast is superior. God  box   07:00, 1 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Useful anywhere with conditions like disease. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 15:16, 1 June 2008 (EDT)
 * This had Martyr in its Variants and that build was archived because of this, which also most of the skills in this build. If you need Condition Removal, there's Foul Feast and Pure was Li Ming; you'd be better off saving your Elite. -Mike 21:46, 1 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Foul Feast? You're not going to spend over 10 seconds trying to remove conditions from your party. Mi Ling requires a decent investment to remove sufficient conditions. Why waste time when you can just remove it all in 1 second? &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 22:10, 1 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Because you can save your Elite for something else. Pure Was Li Ming removes two Conditions with 3 in Restoration, or 3 Conditions with 8 in Restoration, which is a pretty small investment. Besides, this was almost completely covered in those two builds, the closest of which was archived. -Mike 07:01, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I love this build for areas where two minion masters are viable. A party of two players and 6 heroes with one necro using this build and one a pure minion master works really well. Disable blood of the master before each combat and enable it afterwards. I personally don't like the build for myself. Heroes are a lot better at bombing than me :-) smiiiff 08:33, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * That doesn't mean anything, because you can't achieve an effect like Martyr. No existing build covers this, while the build probably is notable and different enough to warrant its own page (has different functionality, as well). &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 16:18, 2 June 2008 (EDT)

the bar
has changed a lot. looks far better now. i still want to try it before voting, though.--Reason.decrystallized 16:32, 2 June 2008 (EDT)

Martyr vs. Foul Feast
Okay, Rapta, you really should stop removing my vote. Foul Feast is a spammable, practically energy free condition removal that is non-elite, while Martyr takes up your secondary profession, is elite, and doesn't provide the free energy that Foul Feast does. --Guild of Deals * Wah Wah  Wah! * 17:57, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Foul Feast is teh buttsecks, not just because of energy (which is the most attractive feature), but for healing, as well. Besides, Archive:N/Mo Supportive Minion Master has every skill on this bar (save for Resurrection Chant), on its bar or in its Variants. I've played Martyr on my MM, and a very similar build to this one, but Martyr was just mediocre, and most of the time, pointless. -Mike 19:06, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Foul Feast is irrelevant, unless it's going to instantly remove all conditions from your entire party. It's the same argument as "why not take Dismember and dump Eviscerate!" because really, one spikes them with huge damage and the other deals deep wound only. And again, "takes up my secondary" isn't an argument. A build isn't less effective because there's a secondary chosen. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 21:22, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Still, odds are unless you're playing vs. Disease, you're entire party won't be flooded with conditions. It's PvE. You get Bleeding and something else on 2-3 frontliners, you can Foul Feast them off in a short time. With the whole secondary thing, something like a Rit secondary with Splinter and/or Ancestor's could be used instead, or a different elite like Jagged Bones. --Guild of Deals * Wah  Wah  Wah! * 21:26, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * You'd be amazed at how often it happens. Disease isn't entirely rare, neither is your party getting wiped by conditions. Also, I'm interested by how you are able to rid a full party of 8 people of conditions in one second with Foul Feast. Is there a glitch that lets you do that? Because it's not working for me or anyone else I know. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 21:28, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I don't, my team survives conditions. I'm not going against Conditionways, it's Pv-fucking-E. You bring an RC Monk if you have some Condi-heavy areas, otherwise you through Extinguish on a MM or something. --Guild of Deals * Wah Wah  Wah! * 21:30, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Wait, so "it's PvE" is a point now? RC monk is an option, so is this. And of course, running an RC monk means you're using up your elite, right? And running Extinguish means you're using up your secondary, right? Again, it's very interesting how you manage to accomplish these things. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 21:34, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * (ec) And yes, N/Rt is an option. You should probably write a N/Rt bomber if you feel so strongly about it. "Freeing up your secondary" isn't an argument. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 21:31, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * We have a general bomber (somewhere, too lazy to find as usual). Still, Martyr isn't as good of an elite as Jagged Bones on a MM, and things like Extinguish, Foul Feast, or just having a decent team are better. The main thing is this: You're using an elite skill over better ones which a decent team or different non-elite skills can do nearly as well. --Guild of Deals * Wah <font color="DAA520">Wah  Wah! * 21:33, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Yes, we have a general bomber. I don't see what your point is. The loss of jagged bones is compensated by Shambling Horrors. You're using an elite skill to accomplish what no non-elites can do nearly as well. The only feasible option that's been brought up was "Pure Was Li Ming", but that means you have weird attributes and can't run Dwayna's for a party-heal. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 21:36, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * In case the logic isn't getting to you (becoming obvious), this is an alternative and an option for condi-spam areas, where you want a bomber and aren't slotting in a Paragon or RC. Stop bringing up irrelevant points. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 21:37, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * It's common sense to bring RC or such in Condi-heavy areas. Extinguish is good relief pressure that works. Jagged Bones is still better when you look at thing like Extinguish compared to Martyr. I'm sleepy and I'm not gonna QQ over one build, so I'm done. --Guild of Deals<font color="Black"> * Wah <font color="DAA520">Wah  Wah! * 21:40, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Or you can run this. This removes conditions too (faster than RC), and you don't have to run an RC. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 21:43, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * There are few areas where conditions are stacked to the point where Martyr is necessary. Pure Was Li Ming and Foul Feast would be more than enough. Heck, you could make a N/Rt with Protective Was Kaolai, Pure Was Li Ming, Foul Feast and MM/Bomber spells. -Mike 21:56, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Yes, that would be wonderful. Unfortunately, Guild Wars only lets you equip 8 skills, and this bar is optimized for that task anyways, so I can run stuff like Shambling and Dwayna's and other stuff. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 21:58, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Or you could use Jagged Bones instead of Shambling Horrors. I remind you, this build was covered by an archived build, and Martyr isn't even worth it as an Elite in most areas. I've used this build on my MM Hero, and it works, but Martyr is nearly worthless in 90% of PvE. -Mike 22:05, 2 June 2008 (EDT)

A little tight, but hey. --Guild of Deals<font color="Black"> * Wah <font color="DAA520">Wah  Wah! * 22:07, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Yeah, probably not the best bar there. You're missing Infuse Condi as well. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 22:09, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Also, usable in 10% of PvE is quite a lot of areas, so thanks for sharing. You forget the awesomeness of Shambling Horrors in PvE. You use this where it's going to be more helpful than drawing for 10 hours with FF. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 22:10, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * That bar takes more skills and takes longer than martyr.---Canderouss
 * Well, thanks for your votes.---Canderouss
 * I only mentioned Protective Was Kaolai because you've already got points into Restoration. It would be like taking Heal Party on this bar. XD Pure Was Li Ming reduces the duration of conditions (acquired from Foul Feast), as well as removes most of your own when you drop the ashes, so Infuse Condition would be pretty pointless, anyway. -07:53, 3 June 2008 (EDT)
 * And that doesn't help when you draw disease into your backline. Pure was Li Ming does not go hand-in-hand with FF, since it removes a set number of conditions from your entire party, while you're drawing stacks of condis onto yourself with FF. Just FYI. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 16:15, 3 June 2008 (EDT)
 * The duration of those conditions will be reduced, and you can simply drop the ashes to rid yourself of 2-3 conditions. As for drawing disease, it's only transfered if you're adjacent to your allies, which by common sense, isn't smart in the first place. There's nothing saying you couldn't take Infuse Condition, but it would be pointless, anyway. Plus, 8 health loss per second won't do much against even a crappy pick-up group. -Mike 16:26, 3 June 2008 (EDT)
 * You're arguing in circles again. The point of this build is to remove all conditions instantly. Unless you can accomplish anything close to that (again, reducing condition duration doesn't mean anything, and FFing just to drop Pure was Li Ming is even more stupid) with that bar, there's no point being made here. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 16:30, 3 June 2008 (EDT)
 * But who needs to remove all conditions on every party member instantly? And within the 10 seconds recharge, conditions would be reapplied if you're using this build in condition-heavy areas (where it should be used, if use at all). Party-wide conditions aren't that common, and even against monsters like the Mandragor in EotN who use conditions constantly, your whole party wouldn't be affected anyway. It's called a Backline for a reason, and no more than 6 foes should be taking conditions if you've got a decent team or flag your heroes/henchmen. On 8 party members, Martyr, which can be used every 11 seconds will relieve all conditions more often if every member is taking at least one condition, but Foul Feast, which can be used about every 2 seconds (1/4 casting time, so who cares) will keep 5 or 6 party members clean of conditions in 11 seconds, and even more effectively (since you can recast FF on the same target). The only real drawback to Foul Feast compared to Martyr is aftercast because it would be re-used often if conditions are constantly being reapplied (which, as I've stated before, is rare in most of PvE). The build is at least Acceptable, but doesn't deserve Great or Good because of the usefulness of Martyr, but in the end, I still think it's a dupe of the archived Archive:N/Mo Supportive Minion Master, which is also more universal because it included variants for the Elite. -17:00, 3 June 2008 (EDT)
 * No one "needs" anything. It's a nice thing to have. Also, you aren't familiar with Mandragor's Charge. And stop being stupid and comparing FF to Martyr. They aren't the same skill, and stop talking about it as if they are. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 17:05, 3 June 2008 (EDT)
 * And variants doesn't make a build more effective. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 17:08, 3 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I disagree; all the PvP Eviscerate bars and Ranger bars are essentially the same (which is why so many people are annoyed when they just change one skill and submit it), and Variants can mean a more universal (thus effective) build if you actually arrange the build based on areas. If you say No one "needs" anything, then this build would be completely pointless since conditions aren't very threatening in PvE, and I would never devote my Elite to condition removal in PvE. I thought we wanted to restrict builds that are stored, and merge/remove those that are similar? Plus, it shouldn't be necessary for me to point out "And stop being stupid" to you, Rapta. If you really like this build so much, why not just switch the Elite on the old build, unarchived it, and clear this one? -Mike 17:19, 3 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Missed one thing: why would I compare Martyr to FF if they were the same skill? XD -Mike 17:20, 3 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Ah, so that explains a lot. You're using the same logic to say that all the PvP Axe and Ranger builds are the same. That tells me that you have no basis nor any credibility for this entire argument you've been making. And also, I don't believe anyone said anything about restricting builds that are stored, so that makes your argument only more moot than it already is. In addition, the old build was vetted for a long duration, which is mostly the reason it was archived. In any case, an archived build is irrelevant when you're discussing condition elites. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 17:46, 3 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Also, by that logic, if FF takes 11 seconds (damn, that's a shitload of time) then Martyr is more than 10 times more efficient. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 18:02, 3 June 2008 (EDT)

I didn't say they were the same (essentially the same=/=identical), they're basically Variants of each other with nearly identical uses (I can understand why different Elites would warrant another page, like with the Ranger bars, but if the differences are already included in Variants, why bother?) The duration of the existence of a build doesn't mean a thing; we've been using nearly identical 55 builds, and the Eviscerate builds since Prophecies. About restricting builds that are stored: why would we even have a Dupe tag? Furthermore, I don't quite understand why you bring up relevance, as this is the same as the archived build, but with skills moved from its Variants to the main bar, and with Resurrection Chant. >.> So many builds have been tagged Dupes of others because they were covered (not identical to) by those other builds, and I see no reason why this would be made an exception. Finally, FF doesn't take 11 seconds, Martyr takes 11 seconds to re-use, and FF can clear 5.5 (lol, half of a person) allies of conditions in the same amount of time (more than the average amount of party members being affected by conditions, even in condition-heavy areas). -Mike 18:24, 3 June 2008 (EDT)
 * They aren't even close. You're running a specific build on different mechanics. Some more popular and innovative builds get their own page. Martyr takes 1 second to use. You're not going to spamming it when you have to make minions anyways. It's a cast-and-forget skill. Plus, it's a pretty interesting and effective use for Martyr anyways, since you still keep bombing with minions while cleaning your party. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 18:27, 3 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I'm not against the use of Martyr (if you're using it specifically for certain areas) since the Elites in MM Bomber builds are usually interchangeable and don't make a big difference in the effectiveness of the build (Jagged Bones, and Flesh Golem have been used) but I see no point in having both this and the archived build that covers this. Martyr will only shine in so few areas that it should be just a Variant in another build. -Mike 18:37, 3 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Oh, but the archived build was to keep a build that was vetted for a long time undeleted. If you feel strongly against it, it can be deleted (since it's not really specialized anymore), but I don't see any harm in keeping it anyways. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 18:40, 3 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I'm just getting a little tired of seeing so many similar (or nearly identical) builds. We've even got a couple other archived MM Bomber builds (besides the Supportive Minion Master). I'd rather improve builds than archive them and create new ones (unless, of course, the differences really are enough, or the build can't be used effectively anymore). -Mike 18:53, 3 June 2008 (EDT)

Sexy
is Martyr. Whip lash  513  13:17, 27 November 2008 (EST)

Omg
[build prof=necro/monk deathm=12+1+3 soulre=10+1 prot=8][martyr][Animate Bone Minions][Death Nova][Signet of Lost Souls][infuse condition][protective spir][aegis][Resurrection chant][/build] Just use fricking sabway necro with infuse condition-- Shadow Relyk  03:43, 28 November 2008 (EST)

Whos votes do i remove
the 4-4s or the 0-0s. Rawrawr Dinosaur 01:03, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * there's more 4-4s than 0-0s--[[image:Newcandy2.jpg]] 14:26, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * So? Trash this. -- -Ch  ao  s-   14:35, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * remove all 1 and lower and 4 and higer imo <font color="#000000">Infested <font color="#CD0000">Hydralisk  16:35, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * that wouldnt solve anything hydra. and when i ask to remove its unspoken that i want reasons as to why please. Rawrawr Dinosaur 19:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * WELL, please. Inferior to every other MM we already have. In PvE there's rarely a need to remove every single condition from every party member. Run a proper elite like AotL or Discord.[[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]]<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">uɐɟ <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">ɐʞıd 19:25, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * A necromancer with Rezz Chant and using Matyr instead of Foul Feast. Do you really need help on this one rawr? [[Image:Misery_Cow.png|19x19px]] <font color="#00dd00">Misery <font color="#00ee00">Says <font color="#00ff00">Moo   19:31, 6 March 2009 (UTC)