Archive talk:Team - Mesmer Hero Midline

This is from the old pvx
I just posted this build. It was rated great in the old pvx, but I didn't want to violate any rules, so I instead submitted it as "testing." --Supernick530 07:27, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Get rid of the wastrel's skills on the Panic. Heroes are terrible with them and they just suck energy. Dont really like bringing inept just for the sake of having 2 mesmers either. Life Guardian 08:15, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe take advantage of Heroes OPness by bringing another rupt?--Wingsy 10:29, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I noticed the wastrel's problem and replaced them with cry of frustration and overload. 79.75.81.104 11:17, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Archive:Team - Mesmer Hero Midline. Probably need to delete this page and move Purpleway to here. -- Jai's Crappy Christmas Sig  ... -  02:28, November 28 2010 (UTC)
 * This one actually has votes. I'll just delete that one and put the great tag on this one (since it was vetted). Toraen -Gifts Plz [[image:ToraenSig3.png|19px]] 03:29, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Except, you know, that one had all the revisions and the talk page. But whatever, it doesn't really matter. -- Jai's Crappy Christmas Sig  ... -  03:32, November 29 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, I see the archive now. Nice. -- Jai's Crappy Christmas Sig  ... -  03:34, November 29 2010 (UTC)
 * I think I could have merged the histories of the build pages too, but I didn't feel it was worth the effort. Toraen -Gifts Plz [[image:ToraenSig3.png|19px]] 03:35, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not like it has a long history or anything. If this was Sabway I'd be pissed, but it's fine as it is now. -- Jai's Crappy Christmas Sig  ... -  03:41, November 29 2010 (UTC)
 * why are you making a big deal out of this? and purpleway is retarded name--Christmas sig.jpg talk  03:51, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Reading comprehension much? I'm not making a big deal at all. At PvX, this was moved to Mesway (because purpleway was "retarded"), but apparently that was done after the database dump. The OP posted this thinking it didn't get ported to gwpvx, when it was actually just under another name. I figured it would be best to move the other build here, since that had the talkpage and whatnot. There's no drama there. Why did you feel so compelled to post something so pointless and thoughtless? -- Jai's Crappy Christmas Sig  ... -  03:58, November 29 2010 (UTC)
 * I stand corrected, history and revisions are srs fucking bsns--Christmas sig.jpg talk  07:04, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
 * No, Kyler, it's really not, and no one here is saying that it is. Stop trolling please. -- Jai's Crappy Christmas Sig  ... -  07:33, November 29 2010 (UTC)
 * Is the MM really neccesary for this build? Couldn't we give some other great working hero builds as optional/variants for the third hero (or simply state that almost any good hero build will go great with these mesmers)? Personally I always bring a UA monk with these 2 mesmer builds when solo. Other people might want to bring their own heroes with these mesmers but think you have to bring the MM. There really isn't any neccessity or synergy for the MM imo. 23:27, 2 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Minion Bomber > PvE. Also: having a massive wall in their faces that will explode only to be self-reborn is some very nice defense to pick up what the Dom & Ill heros do. &mdash;  Scythe   22:31, 8 Dec 2010 (UTC)

is baed atm
panic heros blow pretty hard tbh. Hero + wastrels skills = no energy herospam moar (0.5+1.5second recharges + dmg skill+FC=worse than flare). Tbh it has WNWN on both heros without any way of forcing things to do nothing which means, well, it's a bad idea. Thats like going into HA with siphon on your rits, not running any spirits, and hoping that the other teams bring spirits for you. It's not smart. PI does the job much more efficiently, while providing a much less energy intensive bar for a hero. I suggest what was originally on my Mesway team's dom bar: [build prof=Me/Rt name="PI Hero" fas=12+1 dom=10+1+1 ins=8+1 res=2][Psychic Instability][Cry of Frustration][Mistrust][Shatter Hex][Drain Enchantment][Power Drain][Waste Not, Want Not][Flesh of My Flesh][/build]

Shatter Hex is insanely imba on a high FC hero mes. They can remove hexes within half a second, while dealing some pretty big AoE damage, and on a 6ish second recharge after fast casting. CoF is required for PvE heros, AoE damaging rupt ftw. Mistrust is big damage as well as random spell shutdown. Discuss &mdash; Scythe   22:38, 8 Dec 2010 (UTC)
 * While I like PI I can't see why Panic on a hero would be crap, energy wise that is. I think heroes use WNWN fine with or without shutdown. Unless you know thats not the case?Infin 14:20, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Without direct shutdown they can miss WNWN when they...need energy. The ill bar is an energy hog and needs it's energy support quickly, forcing WNWN to be 100% is always a plus.
 * As well as energy on a panic hero their targeting sucks, they'll often cast it on the fringes of a mob. &mdash; Scythe   2:50, 25 Dec 2010 (UTC)
 * Energy doesnt suck on a panic hero and the range of panic is actually larger than PI(Nearby nearby foes). Life Guardian 06:31, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I've never had panic heros succeed on energy, and [caster] mobs in PvE rarely are much more spread out than nearby range (the minion wall and illusion will soak up and kill the melee/ranged physicals). &mdash; Scythe   21:45, 25 Dec 2010 (UTC)
 * My guilds have been monkeying with Blood is Power or Blood Ritual replacing a skill on one or more of a 3 necro team (sabway vs discord) - usually this is the minion bomber from Sabway or one of the Discorders. I use a line of 2 mesmers, 3 necros, and 2 ritualists in HM, one of my allies brings 3 Rts and one less necro (one Rit is always a Soul Twisting protter, the others may be similar to 2 Rt teams). He is currently trying to get his builds to win in DoA HM without cons but hasn't quite managed to get Foundry (tends to wipe on one of the bosses). I haven't tried my build there, but I've vq'd most of the game with it and rarely die or wipe (maybe 3 deaths with 3/4 done including most of the hardest areas and small party areas). --Falseprophet 20:52, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Chaos Storm
Might be nice on the panic I think. I guess it would cause scatter though. --Chieftain Alex 19:50, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Energy denying PvE enemies just doesnt work well because they have extra energy regeneration and they die so fast. Chaos storm also has a low AoE and doesnt do too much damage.  It does cause scatter btw, but thats not a big deal.  Really, its better off having the straight damage from Mistrust/CoF/Unnatural Signet because they have lower recharges, do more damage, and have a higher AoE range. Ressmonkey 16:45, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Look at the bar above, KD, dmg, support, and energy efficiency wrapped into one. Panic heros are really, really bad, actually. &mdash;  Scythe   20:47, 17 Dec 2010 (UTC)
 * Personally, I really like panic because it doesnt require high fast casting so you can spec into your secondary for support like smiting, command, or restorations skills. The other thing is that panic shuts down almost as well as a knockdown except it does it for 9/15 seconds instead of 4/12. Ressmonkey 22:13, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * More like 9/10 instead of 4/8. FC recharges skills faster, remember? :D -- Jai' s Crappy Christmas Sig...  -  22:44, December 17 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, i conpletely forgot >_<... But yes, those are better numbers. Ressmonkey 01:37, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Modify?
IMO, this should probably just change to be a generic 2-mesmer midline to be used within 7-hero builds. At this point it's pretty much useless because it can't be used in 4-man areas without heavy modification. -- Jai . -  03:58, April 26 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't even see the point of that tbh. The two mesmer builds don't have any specific synergy with each other (aside from slotting Frustration on the illusion) to warrant giving the combination a page. -- Toraen TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png|link=User:Toraen]] 04:18, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Whatever you want to do, but I've seen a lot of people putting the two into their builds. It might be worthwhile, but I don't care all that much. Though it'd probably be easier to make a nice setup of the two than try to sort through the mess of the mesmer hero section... -- Jai . -  04:24, April 26 2011 (UTC)

Kk, so probably either do it like it is now or archive. If this is archived, then the mesmer section really needs to be cleaned up. -- Jai . -  03:37, April 27 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd like to see what others think about this setup, so I'll leave it here for a bit. If consensus is that this should stay, I'll move it back to testing and to some name like Dual Mesmer Heroes. EDIT: Won't vote wipe until it's been decided of course. -- Toraen TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png|link=User:Toraen]] 03:47, 27 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Personally I use these builds a lot almost in every 7 heroes combination it's definetely one of the strongest team builds available for mes and deals tons of AoE damage while disabling most casters and melee thus also providing huge damage reduction and there is synergy in the simple fact that when casters are rupted by panic they automatically attack therefore triggering the illusion's AoE damage.I'd certainly put this into great category.Brave Lord 09:19, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I think it's used often enough to afford a build. They still work fine individually, but there is nice synergy between using panic and arcane conundrum/shared burden to completely shutdown groups. Using panic and ineptitude shuts down casters and melee at the same time, and is very useful for spiking. They're also flexible enough with optionals you can split attributes to effectively run heals and other support. Given all the that, justifying the combination as a midline is a good idea.-- Relyk  talk  21:12, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

The Dom

 * Having run this on every player I have when not running joke/gimmick bars, Why not Tease on the Dom? It's a great skill and works really well in areas where hexes are a bad idea. --Strayver 20:17, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * In areas where hexes are a bad idea you either take Panic and they can't get off a single hex removal skill or you take ESurge which is not a hex in the first place. Dzjudz sig.png talk 20:36, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Domination magic really doesn't have much of anything that would require hardcore energy management from Tease, unless you brought Wastrel's or something. -- Jai . -  23:58, May 8 2011 (UTC)

The dom mes needs VoR as an optional. That skill does so much more damage than e-surge. Especially in hard mode.
 * VoR gets gimped by the Illusion mesmer's hexes. You could run the Illusion without AC and hope that Wandering Eye and Clumsiness don't interfere too much, but it's better to run a VoR mes without another mes. --  Toraen   talk  19:46, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Major rune
I understand that 15 domination gives you a 10 sec panic but you're sacrificing 35 health for only one second. That's just not worth it. Vorpal  23:51, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It is when it lets you pretty much maintain it, and 35 health is like half an attack in PvE, it won't make a difference. Sups are debatable, but a single major rune is fine. -- Jai . -  23:53, May 24 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah 15 domination is a pretty nice spec to suffer only 35hp. Dzjudz sig.png <font color="#47d1de">talk 00:01, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Meh it's still not maintained for half a second. But I suppose you're right, it's a decent investment. <font color="Black">Vorpal [[Image:Ether Renewal.jpg|19px]] 00:09, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
 * it's as much for the extra second as is for more damage-- Relyk 06:55, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Why does this need a page?
There's no question; both are great builds (and I nearly always run 2 mesmers), but there's very little synergy in using both that would warrant a separate page imo. It'd be like making a 2 hero build with a minion bomber and a SoS support rit. AegisDok 21:41, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Well they do complement each other in terms of shutdown. They form a very strong basis for every team in terms of shutdown. Just as the 2 Ritualist Hero Midline rits also don't have that much direct synergy (except for Painful Bond), but they complement each other because of the large resulting spirit army. <font color="Black">Vorpal [[Image:Ether Renewal.jpg|19px]] 21:52, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think anyone uses an illusion mesmer for shutdown (which only ineptitude can do), but for the armor ignoring damage. AegisDok 22:07, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Spammable rupts and Ineptitude totally renders hostile melee useless, how is that not shutting the opponents down? <font color="Black">Vorpal [[Image:Ether Renewal.jpg|19px]] 22:11, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Clumsiness/Wandering Eye stop one attack per foe, which isn't shutdown when they have HM's 50% IAS. Good for the damage, though.  Eh, if there's going to be resistance, I'm not going to push any further.  I thought it was pretty obvious that there's no particular reason these two builds need to be run together apart from them being great individual hero builds, but I guess not. AegisDok 22:17, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
 * for what its worth i agree. it seems retarded to have a page for every 2 hero builds that are ever run together. especially when one isn't made more effective by the addition of the other. Halfies 19:38, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
 * If you want to make your own build, with the help from gwpvx:) <font color="##157DEC">Sjan [[File:Rsz 160px-dervish-tango-icon-200.png]] 19:43, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
 * It does seem a bit odd to have this page for two builds that already exist (as the first two see-also's). Especially since it's not a full build, just a partial mid-line. --JonTheMon 20:39, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Up. Good builds, but they're each present in PvX on their own. The heroes aren't changed to complement each other, so having them as their own midline page is pretty odd and useless. --Krschkr (talk) 22:23, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

Clumsiness?
I'm guessing this Illusion build was actually not tested that thoroughly, at least on a hero. Heroes spam clumsiness on recharge whenever it's on their bar, regardless of energy and utility. A hero with only clumsiness and wandering eye on their bar will almost never use wandering eye, even though it's a cheaper (and often more effective) skill. A hero with only those two skills and zero energy will wait for 10e recharge, use clumsiness, and then stand around wanding, rather than use wandering eye at 5e and clumsiness while wandering eye is recharging. They just REALLY REALLY love to use it, even when it's not going to help at all. I removed clumsiness from all of my mesmer heroes quite some time ago and replaced with emanagement from inspiration, or other utility (FomF, "FB!", etc.). I'm not saying you can't use clumsiness on an illusion mesmer...but if you do, you can't accurately rate the build as "excellent." 173.161.168.49 13:47, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Use drain delusions and gole if it's a problem-- Relyk 14:09, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Suggestion
Add the ER Wastrel's build to this page. That would clear up some of the arguments against that build of it having to rely on shutdown from other characters. It'd also make this page have a little bit more purpose. -- Jai . -  02:35, November 22 2011 (UTC)
 * Disagree with misery's removal of the ER hero. Should be how Jai had it - except there would be a note in the overview "less frequently run addition" or something v similar. 138.38.34.182 14:40, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Is it ever actually run, or is this Vorpal's theorycraft? My interpretation of discussion was that this was something Vorpal made up when his Lyssa's version got trashed. As such it has no place on the meta build page and is purely an attempt to bypass vetting. If the only complaint people have about the build is that it is not part of this team all that needs to be done is a note added to the ER Wastrel's build page that it should be run as part of the 2 Mesmer Hero Midline. I kind of doubt that will magically get it vetted, but if it can't pass that test and isn't actually part of the meta, we won't store it. Simple. A new misery  14:45, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't really believe it is run. <font color="#ff0000">Shadow Shadow02122011.gif <font color="#008000">Christmas Signature 14:48, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Vorpal made the original E/Me ER Dominator waaay before the Lyssa's Aura build.
 * It isn't part of the meta, but this "midline" is what the ER build is run with. The main reason for the ER build being consistantly shot down in flames during voting is that it doesn't work as a stand alone. Combined with this midline, it is strong. As the only viable place on the wiki to store the build, it should be here. 138.38.34.182 15:02, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * No you see that isn't how this wiki works, so no. Add the note to the ER Wastrel's not the other way around. If it isn't part of the meta it doesn't belong on the meta page. A new misery  15:15, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I think you're confusing PvE with PvP a bit. PvX doesn't give a fuck anymore what's meta in PvE, because that "meta" is composed of Moebius Sins, Imbagons run with heroes, Meteor Shower eles, Barrage rangers, crappy hero teams with a Sabway core, and so on. On the other hand, I doubt you'll ever find someone running the Dagger Para build, and yet it's rated great on here. Same with almost all of the ranger builds, half of the derv builds, all of the Rit builds except the Spirit Spammer, and all of the warrior builds except maybe Enduring Axe and Hundred Blades. Sure, I can see your reluctance to putting this "non-meta" build on a "meta" page, but if that's where it belongs, why should it matter? Basically, PvE meta is a joke and I'm considering it in that way. :/ -- Jai . -  15:28, December 4 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes exactly. You have actually strengthened my point. It is in the great section, not the meta section. If the ER Wastrel's build is to be stored it has to pass vetting or be part of the meta. As far as I can tell at the moment it can't achieve either status. A new misery  10:00, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Misery, we've done that. It's on the build page in two places and everywhere on the talk page that the build is supposed to be run in conjunction with a Mesmer midline. And yet every one of the trash votes on the build are directly or indirectly saying that the build is bad because it's not good without the mesmer midline. The build is fine with the mesmer midline because it puts out good AoE damage whether you call targets or not (comparable to a third mesmer) at the tradeoff of not being able to run secondary utility (though you still get Cry, Shatter Hex/Enchant, other rupts, etc.). Obviously it'd be added as an optional to this page, which I'm not so sure was made clear by my edit, but I didn't want to put it in variants in case it be implied that it's replacing one of the mesmers. -- Jai . -  15:19, December 4 2011 (UTC)
 * Variant doesn't imply replacing existing builds unless you specify replacing a build. You can call using an ER Dom hero addition a 3 man variation of the 2 man midline. I'm not sure this is the appropriate page to do so, but it's the best option next to sticking it on 7HS. For what it's worth, I have run this on occasion and it's valuable enough to at least list on this page.-- Relyk 17:58, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I figured there's be less resistance to putting the build here than on 7HPS. Also, this way we can link to the ER Dom build on here in the variants section of 7HPS. -- Jai . -  20:41, December 4 2011 (UTC)
 * If the build page mentions that the ER Wastrel's build is designed to be ran with this midline and there are any votes that mention this fact, list them and I will remove them. Be aware though that I strongly suspect the votes will simply come back with that line removed. At the moment your edit has made it far too prominent on this page considering it is not part of the metagame and can't even pass vetting. This is an attempt to bypass vetting. At the moment you seem too invested in this build to approach it objectively, you seem to care whether or not this build gets stored on the wiki, which is inappropriate. A new misery  10:00, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Roland, Vincent, Ritzy, and Silven. Tahiri's vote is as generic and uninformative as they come, but whatever. I could also refute most of the other points they make, but that would mean a detailed explanation for each one, which I'm afraid I don't have time for at the moment. Mainly just that several of the mention just adding energy management on the mesmers and letting them spam Wastrel's, which has already been shown by many people to be unrealistic, simply because Wastrel's sucks your energy so damn fast. And no, it's not an attempt to bypass vetting, but just the simplest method I can think of to show people that it's supposed to be run with the mesmers, because it seems most of the opposers could not understand that it was to be run with the mesmers and was not, in fact, a stand-alone build. If the wiki were up to me, I'd make it a subpage of the mesmer midline build (and probably have it vetted), but PvX doesn't really like subpages for the most part... -- Jai . -  13:48, December 5 2011 (UTC)
 * Ritzy's vote did not imply that it would not be run alongside this midline, so I left it there. The others have been removed. This is also directly bypassing vetting. The build failed to be vetted, so you slapped it on to another build page that is exempt from vetting due to it being meta. We have deleted guides written clearly just to get builds that couldn't get vetted stored such as an old guide to Spirit's Strength ritualists. This falls into the same category. If the build should only be run as part of this midline you should perhaps edit the build page to make it clearer as it isn't entirely clear at the moment, but I admit it is there. A new misery  14:01, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay, agreed on everything, except the whole bypassing vetting crap was not my intention. Also, as a clarification this build isn't exempt from vetting either. The meta tag was added after the build was voted upon and put into great. Yes, this way it wouldn't be vetted, but that wasn't my reasoning for adding it to this page. And yeah, the other page could use some clarification. -- Jai . -  14:14, December 5 2011 (UTC)
 * I apologise for implying what you intended. That was not my intention. A new misery  15:33, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * ER Wastrel's is dumb, and using only 2 out of 3 mesmers in a build is even dumber. ApplesaucePancakes 17:09, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Feel free to propose a superior 3 mesmer build and see if it gets vetted. A new misery  17:19, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Pretty sure it was suggested as a lot of people are reluctant to lose a Ritualist hero for the third Mesmer. PewPew   QQ   18:13, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * 2-2 because it uses 2 mesmers? 3 mesmers is the exact same build, but you duplicate the domination mesmer. Or you could use Razah as a rit of course (mesmer is better :p). Dzjudz sig.png <font color="#47d1de">talk 19:04, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Move
Anyone oppose? <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  20:32, 5 December 2011 (UTC)