Build talk:Team - 7 Hero Jumper Bomber

Exhaustion
Jilonor (talk) 09:57, 6 January 2018 (UTC) Rickyf16aus (talk) 10:30, 8 January 2018 (UTC) updated teambuild : --Jilonor (talk) 10:19, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
 * We might need some exhaustion on the hero build to maximize  range. So far I only see  as a good candidate.
 * solves that problem nicely.
 * replaced rit prot with necro since minions were killing shelter spirit too fast
 * healer is now UA for faster rez since bombers can die quite fast in some cases

Overview Note
"that makes a total of 384 dmg in 2s" Dont forget to take into account aftercast delay. Each of those spells has a .75sec aftercast delay, so you would average: -Agony 1.5sec; -Shadow Sanct 1 sec; -Unholy Feast 1.75sec normally = 4 sec total; could be 3.5 sec with 40/40 set--- IGN: Saxazax I (capital i) or Saxazax I I - (talk) 14:31, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Shared Burden + Psychic instability is working pretty well.
 * I finished gloom area in DoA twice with no cons. I think the build as it is now is pretty good. There are suggestions and optional skills (panic, esurge, PI...). Might add some variants Jilonor (talk) 18:46, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Normal or hard mode? --Krschkr (talk) 23:03, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Normal mode (lvl 28 foes). To survive the cave quest in HM with no cons and a hero team seems almost impossible Jilonor (talk) 09:36, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Have fun watching this. Links to the quests are in the description. Ravenheart gloom is the easiest DoA HM area in my perception, excluding the boss fight which is a nightmare. I farmed the lightbringer title of my necromancer there. This may be inappropriate advertising, but when you need some variety from playing melee necromancer, would you mind trying Build:Team - 7 Hero Keystone Discordway? If it had a second vote we could give it a provisional rating tag.
 * After making this video I really feel like playing the melee necromancer again myself. Guess I'll now join looking into team concepts fitting it ideally. --Krschkr (talk) 20:43, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Nice. handling foes at spawning point might be a better strategy than waiting for them inside the cave actually. For the last boss, there is a trick where you focus on the greater darkness to kill it but keep the 2 minor darkness alive. Then you pull those 2 away from the resting place of the greater darkness and finish them off. The respawn will occur on the greater darkness dying spot so you will be out of aggro. then you can pull them one by one. I might check the keystone discordway on my second account but not sure when. Don't have much time to play right now Jilonor (talk) 14:11, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Woah, thanks for that hint. I didn't know that was possible. I will have to do it with the 105 health point team now that I know of a reliable way to keep the amount of damage packages reasonable. x) --Krschkr (talk) 15:06, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

Improvements
in my testing N/Mo performs poorly, e.g. stands idle with prots available. this bar is more useful: Juniper real (talk) 14:09, 14 December 2018 (UTC) also, in general the domination mes is either superior in dps as a meta E-surge bar or in shutdown as Panic (as opposed to PI or HEV) Juniper real (talk) 14:50, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
 * There's no difference in the AI of different heroes and heroes of different professions, so heroes apparently using the same skills differently can only be caused by RNG. --Krschkr (talk) 16:04, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
 * sure, i could believe that. either way, an EMo with different skills than the NMo is demonstrably more useful. ZB/AoF are unreliably used, and in the context of a player-based saccer, the NMo prioritizes its bar poorly. Juniper real (talk) 16:55, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I prefer this reasoning a lot. :p The main advantage of the E/Mo is probably that he can bring life attunement for the contagion necromancer. --Krschkr (talk) 17:00, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
 * well sometimes I don't feel like saying more than "I tested, and A is better than B" :D Juniper real (talk) 21:05, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Hah, if it was this easy I could archive the "BiP support" teams because I and all people I play with found triple energy surge and paneptitude to be noticeably more stable and despite the lack of IMS faster. I wish I had more time to test all these details, like E/Mo vs. N/Mo, more thoroughly. --Krschkr (talk) 22:46, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
 * that reminds me I still haven’t tested those midlines yet .. Juniper real (talk) 00:54, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

Too much text to not have its own heading
I'm giving this team a fair and fighting chance, but I'm lingering dangerously close to replacing everything with near/on-meta builds. Main issues:
 * 1. player survivability
 * 2. supporting team damage

Example: the star burst hero jumper was consistently providing about 10-12% of the team's overall damage while leeching prots and aggro from the player. By replacing


 * with


 * the hero's damage contribution increased to 14-15% of team, continued to provide conditions and interrupt, added hex and conditional removal, added resurrect, and as a caster required much less spot heals and prots in order to stay alive.

Meanwhile,
 * outperforms both Starburst as well as RoJ builds in terms of % damage contribution, ping-pongs Foul Feast to fuel continuous contagion proc, heals and blocks, etc. edit: nope, toolbox lies (see below #2)
 * Bar above out-damages either Discord bar, provides thiccer minions, also trades conditions with FF, and has wiggle room for some extra prots which are especially helpful for caster frontline.
 * Bar above out-damages either Discord bar, provides thiccer minions, also trades conditions with FF, and has wiggle room for some extra prots which are especially helpful for caster frontline.
 * Bar above out-damages either Discord bar, provides thiccer minions, also trades conditions with FF, and has wiggle room for some extra prots which are especially helpful for caster frontline.

I've already mentioned replacing the NMo protter with an EMo and the PI with a typical Esurge/panic depending on situation. I've dropped the UA monk, which was mentioned in discussion to be "for faster rez since bombers can die quite fast" as the improved aggro control, damage mitigation and heals have made deaths infrequent. There's a lot of moving pieces with this build that make adjustments time intensive and sort of difficult to compare, but I hope I'm making it clear that there's significant room for improvement if this is to be viable in most HM scenarios. Juniper real (talk) 20:44, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Alright, thx for the intensive testing and suggestions. Will update teambuild accordingly. 2 jumpers in HM might indeed be too much. For NM tho, I believe starburst is still relevant. I have doubts about aura of the lich bar outdamaging discord necro with death nova and putrid explosion Jilonor (talk) 14:03, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
 * no worries!
 * 0. agreed, in NM you can run pretty much anything!
 * 1. I continued to optimize via vloxen excavations HM among other locations. this team was found to be more reliable and required near-zero micro/flagging necessary to complete the dungeon quickly (in vloxen, midline and backline enabled a seldom-dying frontline to churn out damage on par with e-surge, see thumb).


 * 2. I take back what I said about the IV necro. toolbox is deceiving, and Rejuvenation health loss is counted as damage dealt. this hero does not outdamage much, but provides much appreciated pressure support and spot heals. whether it's ideal as-is, i'm not sure.
 * 3. I was surprised to find it so myself, but it's true! at worst, AoTL dps is non-inferior to discord, provides larger meat shield, spends its time casting support skills while minions provide the damage. ran them both through a vanquish, and per dps calc, AoTL > discord/putrid, see thumb
 * 2. I take back what I said about the IV necro. toolbox is deceiving, and Rejuvenation health loss is counted as damage dealt. this hero does not outdamage much, but provides much appreciated pressure support and spot heals. whether it's ideal as-is, i'm not sure.
 * 3. I was surprised to find it so myself, but it's true! at worst, AoTL dps is non-inferior to discord, provides larger meat shield, spends its time casting support skills while minions provide the damage. ran them both through a vanquish, and per dps calc, AoTL > discord/putrid, see thumb
 * 2. I take back what I said about the IV necro. toolbox is deceiving, and Rejuvenation health loss is counted as damage dealt. this hero does not outdamage much, but provides much appreciated pressure support and spot heals. whether it's ideal as-is, i'm not sure.
 * 3. I was surprised to find it so myself, but it's true! at worst, AoTL dps is non-inferior to discord, provides larger meat shield, spends its time casting support skills while minions provide the damage. ran them both through a vanquish, and per dps calc, AoTL > discord/putrid, see thumb
 * 2. I take back what I said about the IV necro. toolbox is deceiving, and Rejuvenation health loss is counted as damage dealt. this hero does not outdamage much, but provides much appreciated pressure support and spot heals. whether it's ideal as-is, i'm not sure.
 * 3. I was surprised to find it so myself, but it's true! at worst, AoTL dps is non-inferior to discord, provides larger meat shield, spends its time casting support skills while minions provide the damage. ran them both through a vanquish, and per dps calc, AoTL > discord/putrid, see thumb
 * 2. I take back what I said about the IV necro. toolbox is deceiving, and Rejuvenation health loss is counted as damage dealt. this hero does not outdamage much, but provides much appreciated pressure support and spot heals. whether it's ideal as-is, i'm not sure.
 * 3. I was surprised to find it so myself, but it's true! at worst, AoTL dps is non-inferior to discord, provides larger meat shield, spends its time casting support skills while minions provide the damage. ran them both through a vanquish, and per dps calc, AoTL > discord/putrid, see thumb


 * Juniper real (talk) 19:50, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Don't you think Shared Burden is worth keeping since you mentioned scatter problems from contagion bomber build. (it will make interrupts easier, will prevent foes from running away, will reduce incoming damages from attacks). Now there is also RoJ in addition to that. I would say either slowing down or KD would be nice to have. psychic instability(4s) vs shared burden instead of Panic or esurge? Also, it would make this teambuild more role specific. The player is a bomber which means he will produce scatter and will be a caster on the frontline. so we need to prevent scatter and enhance survival. otherwise what would be the value of this compared to any other meta team?
 * Let's say we take aura of the lich instead of discord because it might be true, the hero would underuse discord and focus on maintaining enchants. I think it would be good to put death nova and putrid explosion instead of the support skills. there is enough healing and prot anyway
 * About nrg management. Is BIP really required? it feels like the heroes should be fine by themselves if we re-balance the skills on mesmers. Then we could take a more offensive bar Jilonor (talk) 09:30, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
 * totally agree it's worth exploring, and i'd prefer to make this less meta; previously I was doing one-to-one comparisons, and simply found the team worked better with a panic mes instead of shared burden (or PI). could it work even better with a total 3 mesmers and drop a discord bar? quite possibly :]
 * this sounds great; at this point i'd recommend defining a main bar and list a couple damage vs support variants (in tough dungeons, the extra prots were reliably and intelligently used by the hero; would this be necessary in the context of ES+Panic+SB/PI? i dunno)
 * the comparison I was making was bip vs UA, and to be clear I was able to complete vloxen HM with both. this is a personal preference, but a bip healer allows other bars to skimp on nrg management and focus their att lines on more important stuff while it still provides spot heals like the ua would. the instant rebirth is sacrificed, but i prefer the battery over an ez rez.
 * what I think I'm working towards, pending some good ol testing: 0. contagion player 1. ES mes 2. panic mes 3. SB/PI + support mes 4. ROJ monk 5. AoTL + dmg/sup necro 6. bip necro 7. EMo prots. working on it here
 * Juniper real (talk) 15:43, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Any significant updates pending? Jilonor (talk) 13:59, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I’m right where I left it, finding time has been tough. Hopefully in the next month I’ll get another good look at it! hbu? Juniper real (talk) 02:23, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Alright, no worries, there is no rush. To me the teambuild is satisfying as it is. Optional roles and elites are listed so player will be able to pick whatever he prefers Jilonor (talk) 08:58, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

consequent update
So the teambuild has changed a lot (and might change more) and the ratings are not relevant anymore. should we move that build to another page or reset the ratings? Jilonor (talk) 11:51, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I moved it back to trial until you've settles on a reworked build core. When the build is back to testing I can remove the one vote that isn't yours. You can update your own rating when the build is back in testing. This shouldn't be moved so we can keep the page history and talk page. --Krschkr (talk) 17:17, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Thx for moving it back. I updated my rating. Jilonor (talk) 14:08, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

N/Rt - House of Pain Support/pressure
Would Putrid Bile make sense as another optional here? Sonofthort (talk) 20:25, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Yea it would multiply the targets and the chain effect I guess. added it Jilonor (talk) 09:51, 20 January 2019 (UTC)