Archive talk:D/A Beguiling Assault

daze iz gud Belgianbronco 21:31, 25 January 2008 (EST)

Drop Mystic Sweep for a IMS imo. --71.229 21:33, 25 January 2008 (EST)

Dash is in variants, but you're right, when I tried this there was too much kiting. Changing this to main build. Generic Wiki-er 21:36, 25 January 2008 (EST)

Luks gud. frvwfr2  (T/C/Sysop) 13:55, 26 January 2008 (EST)

Moved to Testing (why not, hey?), let the voting and inevitable criticism begin!Generic Wiki-er 21:07, 26 January 2008 (EST)

Looks good, but you need to activate Pious Haste before useing beguiling Haze since whenever you use that skill the monk will run. I know from past experiance on a sin, it's the daze and the sudden arrival that make the monk panic. Pwnted 21:47, 26 January 2008 (EST)


 * That's what I do; but I guess it isn't clear in the usage. The thing is, if you Pious Haste a bit before to get in range of the target, Attacker's Insight might be removed by it ending. Doesn't happen too much though, but I'll go and change the usage notes this way Generic Wiki-er 22:10, 26 January 2008 (EST)

Less major scythe mastery would be gud. Fishy Moo oo  08:28, 27 January 2008 (EST)


 * Crippled is needed. Also beguiling haze has a pretty long recharge[[Image:DestinyOfKiestsig.jpg|19px]]♪Destiny Of Kiest♪  (talk / pvxcontribs ) 10:35, 27 January 2008 (EST)


 * Crippled isn't really needed; Pious Haste is enough anti-kitage. Either way, the choices aren't that great. Crippling Victory in place of Eremite's/Pious Haste maybe, or Grenth's Fingers. I guess if you really want one, pre-using Shadow Refuge and Signet of Pious Restraint would fit in too; I don't have EoTN so I can't try it. Really though, I don't think a snare isn't really necessary, and being crippled tends to stop people from running (attacks are always critical vs moving targets). Beguiling Haze's recharge is 20s, only as long as the nerfed SP sin, and this chain is almost as powerful as that one, except you can use this one in the downtime too (against non-casters), it has daze, and it's a bit faster, plus this build has a heal, a good idea for RA. Generic Wiki-er 10:48, 27 January 2008 (EST)


 * As for the minor/major scythe mastery, maybe. I'm not really sure whether one or the other has a significant advantage. I fill in the last rune slot with an attunement rune, and my health is 590. I think the bit of extra damage can compensate for the *slightly* lower health. Of course, feel free to try it with a minor rune; prove me wrong. I'll put both your ideas in the variant notes. Thanks! Generic Wiki-er 10:48, 27 January 2008 (EST)


 * Nice idea, but needs ias for constant interupts through dazed. Attributes also need to be fixed (at r12, b haze daze 8 seconds + 33% from wep mod = 11 sec daze. At r9, 7 second daze + 33% mod = 9 seconds of daze.) --[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px|19px]] Lann 07:28, 28 January 2008 (EST)


 * Ok, several important points to be made in response to Lann's comment: 1.There's no Silencing Scythe Snathe, and weapon swaps take a second or two. It's not really worth it. 2. Possible choices for an ias in this: Heart of Fury (30 second recharge; too long to wait) and whirling charge (energy problems, costs ten and 15 is needed for haze, as well as it ends as soon as Pious Assault makes contact). 3. It's a spike; not so much a pressure build. Putting twelve in Shadow would give an extra second to kill, at the drawback of either A) Attacker's Insight having two "charges" of nine energy reduction at four wind prayers, B) Having ten scythe mastery before runes to invest enough points in Wind Prayers, or C) You put a major rune in Wind Prayers. A) is feasible, though your mysticism would be zero, making energy harder to manage, though it's easy to do so the way it's set up now, and Pious Haste would be less effective. B) doesn't give you enough damage to spike down a target, and C) isn't a great idea. Anyone want to propose a solution to this I can't see? Generic Wiki-er 18:43, 28 January 2008 (EST)
 * No need for an IAS, one of your three attacks is 1/2s and the other is 3/4. You shadow step->IMS->attack skills = dead target. And that's assuming your shadow stepping on every spike. You've got a non-SS spike every 12 seconds and aut-attacking you'll be hitting anywhere from 70-80+ damage on 60AL targets--Goldenstar 14:59, 29 January 2008 (EST)


 * moar liek 51.5 – Ichigo 724 [[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 15:20, 29 January 2008 (EST)

Bad attribute spread. You don't need 11 Shadow Arts for Beguiling, it can work effectively at 6-8. -- Guild of  Deals  18:23, 29 January 2008 (EST)
 * 9 is breakpoint for 7 secs. Also, shadow refuge is bad, rather run w/o heal then with shadow refudge. - [[Image:Unexist sig.jpg|20px]]Unexist  10:32, 31 January 2008 (EST)
 * Impruv it a bit end it will be gud-- Korineczek --( Toalk -- Koantribooshns ) 12:57, 31 January 2008 (EST)

Shroud of Silence would be better IMO. --Usual 22:44, 1 February 2008 (EST)
 * No it wouldn't. Shroud doesn't shadow step, and shroud will disable your main source of energy management.--Goldenstar 22:53, 1 February 2008 (EST)

Build looks perfect. 11 in shadow arts is fine, they aren't needed elswhere. An IMS is better than a snare anyways. I'd prefer to keep shadow refuge, people can change it up if they like, any healing is better than none. No matter what, this build is superior to most builds in its universality.--Relyk 05:16, 2 February 2008 (EST)
 * EFFIN A!!!!!!!!1111shift+1 (76.123.132.25 15:38, 2 February 2008 (EST))

@Bob's Vote
Was wondering if you can explain how the spike has the same attack speed as a five-attack sin chain? The entire chain takes 2.25 seconds, even with a 33% IAS a 5 skill sin chain isn't going to be done faster.--Goldenstar 23:14, 1 February 2008 (EST)
 * Sins dps is crap. Dervishes iz gud. Then you have a less powerfull chain, so what? 1 SoA/Sh @ sins and gg. - [[Image:Unexist sig.jpg|20px]]Unexist  07:16, 2 February 2008 (EST)
 * I know. I didnt rate this any worse then id rate the sin.  This is easier to prot against then the sins though, since the time between the ss and attack is longer and it has no kd.  Without an ias, this takes 3 seconds 1.75+1/2+3/4.  The sin with 5 attack skills takes about 3.8.Bob fregman 10:21, 2 February 2008 (EST)

In-Game Description of BH Doesn't Match
Says nothing about interrupt in the in-game description. It does, however, interrupt spells. Not skills, or signets, but spells. Thought I'd point that out.Matti Nuke 02:58, 2 February 2008 (EST)

When daze is applied it interrupts the spell what foe was using, I think. Master Gladius 06:11, 2 February 2008 (EST)

Imba
yaaa, totally imba ^^ --Igor</tt> 09:33, 2 February 2008 (EST)
 * Seconded! Zerak-Tul 19:50, 16 February 2008 (EST)

Shadow Refuge
is still in usage even though the build uses Natural Healing. Just letting you know. -Sardaukar Blackfang 10:18, 2 February 2008 (EST)

Untested
This is still in untested builds on the front page, someone should change it... Cool Name 11:14, 2 February 2008 (EST)

What happened to build?
Wazgud last night. Now it has a major rune and diff attribute spread, not to mention natural healing? Wtf? Ever hear of prot enchants? Natural healing is baed. Revert plsMatti Nuke 13:32, 2 February 2008 (EST)

Why the hell would you use a major rune with chilling victory?Matti Nuke 13:57, 2 February 2008 (EST)

Might want to add Disrupting Dagger instead of Natural Healing for TA--Camizzle 14:40, 2 February 2008 (EST)

Here, run this. 20 second recharge on the stance, but you do more damage once they start kiting, which (because the spike won't cleanly kill) finishes them faster. Attacker's insight>Harrier's Haste>Beguiling Haze>Attack Skills. Natural Healing sucks because of Prot Enchantments. Don't say HH has too long of a recharge, because BH is 20 seconds also. This should be main bar IMO, or make Shadow Refuge an optional slot, since its not needed for TA. Disrupting Dagger is a good idea. [build prof=Dervish/Assassin Scythe=12+1+1 Shadow=9 Wind=9+1 Mysticism=3][Attacker's Insight][Beguiling Haze][Chilling Victory][Pious Assault][Eremite's Attack][Harrier's Haste][Shadow Refuge][Resurrection Signet][/build] + - Matti Nuke 14:42, 2 February 2008 (EST)

Natural healing is better then shadow refudge, since you have pious haste for anti-enchantment. Also, you won't be protted that much, and even if you're protted it's better then shadow refudge. In Ra/Ta major's aren't generally a problem. - <font color="Black">Unexist  06:35, 3 February 2008 (EST)
 * But, Unexist, you're forgetting that you want more hp to get the benefit of Chilling Victory. Especially if you're aiming to spike a Monk. Monks generally have 600-630hp. 480+50(sup vigor)+40(survivor insigs)+60(Melee weapon and offhand). You want to be at or above that or you lose effectiveness. Majors, as a rule, aren't too bad, especially on a dervish with the inherent +25 on a chest piece. But, with this build they are.Matti Nuke 12:07, 3 February 2008 (EST)
 * Usually, the monk is under some pressure. Swing your scythe a couple times.--Relyk 01:00, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

@Shen's Vote
You're completely wrong. First off, i'd say the spike isn't as easy to predict or stop as you make it appear. I agree, a leet monk might (emphasis on might), be watching the derv for a spike, but that's not likely. This is RA we're talking about, and the monk is going to have 3-4 other enemies to be watching, not mention his own team. Secondly there's a shadowstep, have fun pre-protting when the derv could be spiking one of any four targets. Third, watching insight as a cue for the spike is crap, you're running a derv with a zealous scythe, you have more than enough energy to spike every so often without insight. Fourthly, you should be able to do plenty in the downtime. You can be spamming eremites while waiting for pious and chilling to recharge. Plus, i'd hardly call auto-attacking for 60-50 damage (which a scythe will do against 60AL targets) nothing. Usdually you've got a pretty good idea of a build's effectiveness Shen, but here you are dead wrong.--Goldenstar 16:57, 2 February 2008 (EST)
 * You are wrong too. 1: any decent monk that has a ping under 2000 can catch those spikes. Really, it's only like what, 350 damage? It's not like derv goes in does chilling and boom dead target. 2: They spike usually monks only, since daze kills monks, and not mesmers. 3: Sythes w/o ias @ zealous are bad, unless you hit like 3 targets at the same time at pve. Ra is not pve. 4: monks can watch targets in ra so freaking easy, if you equal it to GvG/Ha. - [[Image:Unexist sig.jpg|20px]]<font color="Black">Unexist  06:15, 3 February 2008 (EST)
 * daze won't kill good monk same as dw won't (*cough*Return*cough).-- Korineczek --( Don't   argue! ) 09:03, 3 February 2008 (EST)

less wind prayers, more mysticism... Mystic Corruption, Mystic Corruption, Mystic Corruption!!! long daze = fun.-- Frans  09:19, 3 February 2008 (EST)
 * Target should die before daze wears off. If it doesn't then longer daze really won't help you. Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] (<font color="Black">contributions  * sandbox ) 11:23, 3 February 2008 (EST)

Shadowy Burden
I thought of Burden (for TA) when making the build, -20 AL makes spike crazy, but also predictable, hard on energy, and can't be used with hex-based builds (CE Necro). Discuss? Generic Wiki-er 13:30, 3 February 2008 (EST)

The build already has basically no mysticism, don't think you could handle the energy loss. --Hikari 16:36, 3 February 2008 (EST)

This is my take: I run this with only 5 in Wind, 4 in Mystic, 11 in Shadow arts and I use Shadowy burden and Shadow Refuge instead of Pious Haste and Natural healing. I do more damage and have better self-heal. Illmode 17:25, 3 February 2008 (EST)

RA Only...?
Don't think many would take this is their frontliner in TA. --Hikari 18:19, 3 February 2008 (EST)
 * Also, harrier's haste instead of Pious Haste imo. --Hikari 23:02, 3 February 2008 (EST)

I've seen this used in TA as the frontliner for a spike build. I wasn't in a very good team, but the spike seemed pretty deadly. Admittedly, I was on a pretty bad team, but it seemed effective, though there are probably better choices if you're looking for more pressure than spike. Edwards 01:07, 6 February 2008 (EST)

:\
10 wind prayers is a waste, drop to 4 and bring meditation for selfheal instead maybe?<font color="Black">Belgianbronco 12:58, 18 February 2008 (EST)
 * Ok, if the wind is lowered to 3+1, myst would be 9 or 9+1. @ 10 myst, meditation (w/o an enchant on you, see the skill) heals for 90, 5e 1c 8r, currently Natural Healing does 113 at 5e 1c 8r assuming you don't put AI on too early. Higher myst gives longer 9-sec P-Haste though., and slightly more health and energy off AI ending. Idk, I suppose it's viable, I'll add to variants. On a side note, I never knew Meditation existed 0_o. Generic Wiki-er 20:15, 18 February 2008 (EST)

Malicious Strike
Automatic crit is imba with scythes, far outdamages Eremites, just slower activation. Zerak-Tul 16:54, 21 February 2008 (EST)
 * 3/4sec chain finish > autocrit imo. --71.229 17:07, 21 February 2008 (EST)
 * Really I can see both working if they are still Dazed so its hard to say. But most likely the 3/4sec attack would work a bit better. XvivaX 18:23, 21 February 2008 (EST)
 * Already in variants; "A more powerful attack skill". IMO though, 3/4 sec>auto crit on this, since 70-80% of the time your target tries to flee anyways, guaranteeing an auto-crit Generic Wiki-er 00:32, 22 February 2008 (EST)