Archive talk:Rt/D Great Dwarf Spirit/Archive02

102kb was too much. 15:10, 4 June 2009 Discussion archived. - 11:28, 6 August 2008 (EDT)
 * ^  Frosty  No U!  11:33, 6 August 2008 (EDT)

Highlights from Archive 1
Avoid revisiting these points without reading the archived discussion first. - 11:40, 6 August 2008 (EDT)
 * 1) PvE Team tag relates to the idea of running two of these, both maintaining GDW on the other.
 * 2) GDW is the best weapon spell for this build.
 * 3) Skill bar is aesthetically pleasing.
 * 4) AoHM = Good.
 * 5) Build does lots of damage.


 * Tee why Panic. 12:17, 6 August 2008 (EDT)

Chilling Victory
is it viable?-- R  e l y k 00:11, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Energy would hurt, and the Cold damage will be reduced to shit in high-end. Not really worth it, imo. ــмıкε  нaшк  00:16, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Since weakness doesnt affect bonus damage, would wearying strike be viable as a source of DW? [[image:IAmJebus_sig2.jpg|19px]] * Jebus  *   Is    I  Enter my contest! 00:19, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * It still affects AoHM, however. I wouldn't have it on the main bar (the bar is pretty tight, anyway), but if you could get someone to remove the Weakness right away, and possibly a BiP because you'd only really be able to replace Death Pact Signet or Zealous Sweep (which is half of your energy management). ــмıкε  нaшк  09:45, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Guise, the build is as good as it'll get. You're asking for too much. At 100+ a swing, DW isn't even needed. HB+Echo'd Infuse can't save that person. 11:46, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * I agree, this build is finished. There aren't any improvements left to be made, because we've gone over just about everything. ــмıкε  нaшк  12:40, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Why would you echo infuse?-- R  e l y k 22:57, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * It's like Echoing Mending, because it makes it so much stronger! >.> ــмıкε  нaшк  22:58, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Relyk, common sense: Using Infuse back to back=win, DURRR. Btw, new update makes this even 1337er. 18:18, 8 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Update pwn, use Aura of Faith before infuses imo tho.-- R  e l y k 22:51, 8 August 2008 (EDT)
 * echo unyielding aura. I  is   * Je b us * [[image:IAmJebussig3.jpg|19px]]   Enter my contest! 22:54, 8 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Yeah, now from new update, AoF+Infuse can't save you from this. 23:20, 8 August 2008 (EDT)
 * What about ECHO MENDING :O I  is   * Je b us * [[image:IAmJebussig3.jpg|19px]]   Enter my contest! 23:21, 8 August 2008 (EDT)
 * But that counters everything :o 10:48, 9 August 2008 (EDT)

EVEN BLEEDING! We all know Bleeding is the biggest threat in Guild Wars. XD ــмıкε  нaшк  10:50, 9 August 2008 (EDT)
 * I killed someone with bleeding+wanding with 13 strength in RA. I took out a sword, used Deadly Riposte, switched to wand, and proceeded to kill him. FYI I was also using Mending/Healing Hands/Vigorous Spirit/Live Vicariously, so yeah, I was pretty much invincible (lulz). 18:26, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
 * What does Strength matter? You aren't using attack skills. Just to make it obvious that you were a Warrior auto-attacking with a wand? lol ــмıкε  нaшк  18:28, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Yes. And because armor penetration on a wand is leetsauce! >:D 19:07, 11 August 2008 (EDT)

Asuran Scan
What about replacing Great Dwarf Armor with Asuran Scan? (Narziss 04:45, 13 September 2008 (EDT))
 * If you want to blow up, go for it. -- Frosty [[Image:SnowmanF.jpg|19px]] 04:49, 13 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Very stupid idea, as you'll die too fast. 75 armor on a frontliner sucks more weewee than Paris Hilton. 99 armor is even a little iffy when under heavy pressure. 10:13, 13 September 2008 (EDT)

While hero/henching, can you use Weapon of Aggression seeing as you don't have anyone to cast GDW on you? HareeMuh 15:08, 7 December 2008 (EST)
 * Energy is too tight when using it (I've already tested it). You're better off having a hero maintain Vital Weapon or Brutal Weapon on you, or maintain it on yourself. Drop a point from Spawning and put 6+1 into the respective attribute, Communing IIRC. (I know Brutal will have no effect, but it is a long-lasting weapon spell.) 15:20, 7 December 2008 (EST)
 * Brutal Weapon >.<--[[Image:Relyk chtistmas2.jpg|20px]] Christmas Relyk  10:59, 9 December 2008 (EST)

why should GDW and GDA be on these builds? There can simply be a third character, packing both skills, maintaining them on the Rits, so the rits can take Asuran Scan and shit.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ  11:03, 9 December 2008 (EST)
 * If you have someone taking GDW/GDA, then by all means take Asuran Scan and another good PvE-only skill (Drunken Master maybe?). I made this so you+1 other person can take heroes and rape any mission you want. Plus, I hate relying on other people, since most people are incompetent and can't do simple tasks, like maintain GDW/GDA on me. 16:10, 9 December 2008 (EST)

srsly
[build prof=n/mo smit=12][great dwarf weapon][great dwarf armor][strength of honor][/build] [build prof=rt/d spawn=12+1+1 scy=12][spirit's strength][asuran scan][by ural's hammer][aura of holy might][mystic sweep][eremite's attack][zealous sweep][optional][/build] [build prof=rt/d spawn=12+1+1 scy=12][spirit's strength][asuran scan][by ural's hammer][aura of holy might][mystic sweep][eremite's attack][zealous sweep][optional][/build] [build prof=rt/d spawn=12+1+1 scy=12][spirit's strength][asuran scan][by ural's hammer][aura of holy might][mystic sweep][eremite's attack][zealous sweep][optional][/build]

So much stronger!  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ  08:16, 25 December 2008 (EST)
 * More likely to die. Still requires another person. Use that build if you want. There is a thing called CHANGING BUILDS GOGOGO. 11:03, 25 December 2008 (EST)
 * By changing builds, I mean using your own variants. 11:03, 25 December 2008 (EST)

How is it more likely to die? :s  Ricky vantof  19:07, 25 December 2008 (EST)

Tbh, if you were going for the whole team build, I'd bring an Imbagon, drop Great Dwarf Armor, and drop AoHM for Drunken Master. Orders will deal more damage than AoHM in the areas you're going to bring a whole team of players to do, tbh. ــмıкε нaшк  19:19, 25 December 2008 (EST)
 * Ricky: More likely to die because if GDA gets stripped, your necro might not notice and won't apply it again. Also, it could be recharging, and in that time you might die.
 * Mike: Agree and disagree. Yes to the Imbagon part. No to the removing AoHM part. AoHM adds a lot more damage than Orders will. If you want Drunken Master, put it in the spot for GDA. With an Imbagon, you have no need for GDA. (Well, besides a health boost. But is it an Imbagon, and health isn't really needed.) But a team build isn't needed for something like this...Imbagon, standard monk backline, necro buffer, and these. The only non-standard build(s) in there are these. 13:40, 26 December 2008 (EST)

This build is basically: "gaiz if u taek spirit's strength and gdw it r nice synergies ^_^"  Ricky vantof  13:41, 26 December 2008 (EST)
 * It's more "guise, if you taek spirits strength, gdw, and aohm ir y nice sinnergeez". AoHM's bonus damage is ridiculous when used with SS+GDW. 14:46, 26 December 2008 (EST)
 * AoHM only increases your weapon's base damage, but stacking AoHM with Asuran Scan and "BUH!" (because they're percentile increases) is big domoge, anyway. Now that I think about it, though, whether AoHM deals more damage than OoP or not, not taking an Orders spammer>taking an Orders spammer. IAS would be nice, too, but your only reasonable options are conditional (Drunken Master, or having a Volfen lol). I still think that OoP will deal more damage when you're up against those level 28 Destroyers, though. XD ــмıкε  нaшк  15:17, 26 December 2008 (EST)

TBH VoS > SS. VoS calculates bonus damage.  Ricky vantof  15:19, 26 December 2008 (EST)
 * Conditions are nice, so VoS is meh. Also, I made the VoS build originally. Check it on my page. I'll re-put it up soon. Anyways. Mike. AoHM gives +20 base damage at a minimum. That's more than orders. Orders gives +20 at 20 blood magic. First off, no one runs 20 blood magic. Second, no one uses r0 Kurz/Lux stuff. Therefore, AoHM > Orders. The only time Order MIGHT be better to take is if the enemy has godly armor, and vampiric shit is a must (e.g. rarely). Only then would I take Orders over AoHM. It's 1am, I'm tired as hell, I am still recovering from my hangover, and I need sleep. If I don't make any sense, re-post what I need to answer. 01:05, 29 December 2008 (EST)

variant for GDW
what if no1 in your party has GDW when you go fighting, what can you replace great dwarf weapon for and still make it do a lot of dmg. i was thinking weapon of aggression, if you used the last 3 attribute points on channeling and used a sup rune of channeling you could make it lasts for about 12 seconds giving you enough time to recast. the bonus attack speed would increase the damage over time even if you don't have the added KD from GDW.
 * After spending about 3 minutes trying to decipher what you actually meant from your super long one sentence, I've come to the conclusion that you're not smart enough to run this build. I'd also like to establish that if no one in your party has GDW, why the hell are you even trying to run this? Next, why would I run a sup rune of channeling for one skill that drains your energy? 3 channeling does nothing there buddy, since you have no unused attribute points to put into channeling. And lastly, why don't you just have a party member go /Rt, put 6 (or whatever points are left over) points into Communing, and bring Vital Weapon which will last 17 seconds at 6 communing, give you a nice health boost, is spammable on the party, and doesn't drain your energy when used correctly. See what I did there? Also, please learn to sign your comments by typing ~ at the end of your message. Good day, sir. 16:12, 21 January 2009 (EST)
 * 1st you could take the 3 out of resto and add it to channeling. 2nd weapon of aggression gives an attack speed increase, making ur damage over time a lot more and it costs the same energy as great dwarf weapon it just doesnt last as long. 3rd why would someone change their build to /rt just to take 1 skill and then ask them to keep it on me, and its the same for a hero, i don't use any builds on my heroes that use /rt. i was just saying if no1 in ur party has GDW what would u take to keep the damage up. also there are ppl out there that haven't got great dwarf weapon. meaning theres a chance that no one in your party has it, or has any room to add it. --Undead paragon 01:51, 23 January 2009 (EST)
 * All I can say is wow. I'd like to point out how much Weapon of Aggression costs per fight. Seeings as fights last around 30 seconds, that's 30 energy alone from Weapon of Aggression. Next, Death Pact Signet would res with 15% energy if you removed the 3 points from Restoration. If my monk goes down and I res him, what will he be able to do? Nothing. Even if they have 50 energy, they'll only be ressed with 7.5 energy. That's enough for one 5-energy skill. Third, who doesn't run sabway or a N/Rt healer? Seriously, if you're with heroes (like you said) you should be running sabway (unless you fail hard), and if you are, it isn't hard to take Vital Weapon, disable it, and make a keybind to use it on you as it runs out. It's not hard to do. Have yourself targeted, and press the button. SO HARD!!1!1!!!1!1!11!! Lastly, someone that doesn't use a secondary profession can go /Rt--you'll have at least one every time you make a group. If you don't have GDW on anyone in the party, then find someone that doesn't fail and has GDW. It's not a hard concept. I've given you alternatives, and yet you still try to find others THAT DON'T WORK. I've been using this build since before it was authored, and I've tried every alternative you can think of. If I don't recommend it, it is because it is either a)counterproductive, or b)it doesn't work or it fails. If you'd learn to play Guild Wars without failing, you'd understand that I'm right, and that your "arguments" are terrifail. Good day, sir. 16:36, 23 January 2009 (EST)
 * OK, using sabway all the time is lame, almost everyone in GW uses it now and there for every group is the same. 1 person, sabway and either hench or another player with sabway. any1 that doesnt use sabway either doesn't want to just stand there and not have to do anything or uses different heroes. 2nd it was a suggestion for weapon of aggression, i didn't even have this build when i said it and now i know that it doesn't work because of the energy problems alright. finally you still didn't answer my question all you keep saying is get a hero to bring vital weapon despite me telling you i don't use heroes with /rt you could of simply said you cant use this build without another person that has either vital weapon or GDW. instead u decide to flame me because i don't play with ppl that bring great dwarf weapon or a weapon spell and i don't tell them to keep it on me at all times. Taking vital weapon on yourself in place of GDW and replacing death pact signet with another res is a better idea than changing builds to be able to run this build. --Undead paragon 01:48, 24 January 2009 (EST)

You can replace GDW with Vital Weapon, put the points from Restoration Magic into Communing. Death Pact signet is still viable at 0, but if you're bothered by it take Resurrection Signet. You'll end up doing less DPS and lacking KD's but you gain a nice health boost.  Ricky vantof  16:46, 23 January 2009 (EST)
 * Or since you're running heroes just run sabway and take Vital Weapon? That makes more sense, plus it frees up a slot for you to bring something like Asuran Scan. 17:32, 23 January 2009 (EST)
 * Wow, that's exactly what I've been saying ever since this build's on PvX.  Ricky [[Image:Ricksawsmface.PNG]] vantof  17:33, 23 January 2009 (EST)
 * And wow, I've been saying that could be your own little variant since you've been whining about changing the build. This was meant to be ran as 2 people using GDW on each other in a PUG for many damages. If you have someone to spam GDW on you (Wielder Zeal Rit mehbeh), then by all means drop GDW for Asuran Scan. Anyone with half a brain will know that this is the basic build, and that you're supposed to modify it to your needs. Learn to do shit on your own and maybe one day you'll understand what the fuck variant means in stead of having someone hold your hand the whole way. 11:07, 24 January 2009 (EST)
 * Also, undead paragon, learn to edit right. You're supposed to add comments at the end of the section, not in the middle. Understand? Next, I used sabway as an example, since most people with half a brain run it. Do you run a SH ele? Then go /Rt and bring Vital Weapon. Do you run a Domination mesmer? Then go /Rt and bring Vital Weapon. Do you run a MM? Then go /Rt and bring Vital Weapon. Do you run a commandagon? Then go /Rt and bring Vital Weapon. Unless you run meleeway, you can do any of those easily. A MM doesn't need a secondary, a SH ele doesn't need a secondary, and mesmers rape so hard on their own they don't need a secondary. Therefore any of those classes and common builds mentioned can easily go /Rt and use Vital Weapon on you. At 6 communing, it lasts 17 seconds--2 casts (one before, and one midbattle) will last you every fight. I've answered your question every fucking way possible, and yet you still whine on asking for an answer. Learn to read and you'll realize I've given you your answer plenty of times. Also, in response to your last sentence (Taking vital weapon on yourself in place of GDW and replacing death pact signet with another res is a better idea than changing builds to be able to run this build.), I'd like to point out that taking Vital Weapon over GDW and dropping DPS for SsRS or Res Sig requires you to change builds, which you clearly said was a bad idea (you said to swap skills is a better idea than changing builds. OWAIT, SWAPPING SKILLS=CHANGING BUILDS). I'm not flaming you for asking for a variant. I'm flaming you for continuing to ask for an answer than has already been given a ton of times, and for generally being stupid and failing at GW. 11:18, 24 January 2009 (EST)

Hmyeah, I see a big wall of text. CBA to read it.  Ricky vantof  11:38, 24 January 2009 (EST)
 * Basically Infi called Undead an autist who cant play GW and asks the same question over and over, then he said if u have a hero with an open secondary put vital weapon on it and forget about GDW if u dont have it. 12:03, 24 January 2009 (EST)
 * I didn't call him an autist, I just said his replies are stupid and ask the same thing that has been answered multiple times. 18:02, 24 January 2009 (EST)
 * ok im not gonna bother arguing about this any more im just going to use my own variant for this build because unlike all your suggestions i run builds that use 2 professions and they work for me --Undead paragon 02:36, 27 January 2009 (EST)
 * I'm glad you've finally decided to use some of your brain. However, I clearly stated a viable alternative for you, and you refuse to use it out of your stubbornness. I'm sorry that you don't want to be helped. Once you decide you'd like help, please come back and post a serious question, and you'll receive a serious answer by, yours truly, Infidel. 16:18, 27 January 2009 (EST)

In response to the recent edits by anons/KJ's breaking of 1RV
Stop being autistic. Seriously. I'm not "flaming monks", as one anon put it. Some monks are bad. That is a fact. KJ, don't break 1RV. It's called "take it to the talk page". I put that there because there is no reason at all to take Victorious Sweep unless your monks are doing bad. Unless you have any counter-objection to this, I'll put it back the way it was (with permission, of course). --Slurry. 19:54, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I didn't break PvX:1RV, I only reverted you once. This is a build article, not a place for your bitching. Leave the "my monks suck" bullshit off build articles. [[Image:KJ needed a new sig....sig.png]] 19:56, 27 April 2009
 * Oh, and if you revert me, then you'll be breaking 1RV. [[Image:KJ needed a new sig....sig.png]] 19:56, 27 April 2009
 * Also I'm watching you two. If your heroes can't keep you alive by you microing protective spirit and them dropping heals on you randomly, then you're probably bad at pve. Who uses monks for healing in pve anyway? ~ Big  [[Image:Big sadface sig.PNG]]  sysop  19:59, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I reverted the anon. You reverted me. 1+1=2.
 * I didn't say anything about "my monks suck". I play with reliable monks known as heroes, tyvm. I said that IF YOUR MONKS ARE DOING BAD, for example if you're in a PUG, then use Victorious Sweep. With that being said, you should never use it unless under those circumstances. Honestly, give a good argument or gtfo. --Slurry. 20:00, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, and reverting with permission definitely doesn't break 1RV, since I have permission. lrn2semantics. --Slurry. 20:01, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * PvX:CHILL. It's a build article. It doesn't need personal additions like that. There's no point in them. Big, don't worry, that's my last comment on this. [[Image:KJ needed a new sig....sig.png]] 20:03, 27 April 2009
 * Not only that, but running a team like this takes coordination from the beginning anyway. If you're gonna run dual-rit frontline in pve, you'll probably be well-prepared for whatever may come. Now that you mention it...does anyone even run this? ~ Big  [[Image:Big sadface sig.PNG]]  sysop  20:05, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * ...That definitely isn't a "personal addition", it's a common fact. I've seen many monks that run shitty builds, like HH, boon, /R with a pet, etc. So if you know that your monk is gonna suck, you bring that instead. It's helpful information, since 90% of the wiki doesn't have the brain to realize it. --Slurry. 20:09, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * This takes 2 people. So coordinated, huh? Me and a friend PUG with this all the time--does that mean we're guaranteed to be "well prepared for whatever may come"? Not necessarily.
 * And yes, people run this. For example, in my current alliance, about 25% runs it, and with 8 guilds of 100 members [each], that would mean ~200 people run it. In my current guild alone. A lot of friends run it to. Ex-guilds as well. Total numbers, I'd say are around 300, maybe more. Good day. --Slurry. 20:09, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Life says that no one runs this and has been trying to get this deleted for a while. [[Image:KJ needed a new sig....sig.png]] 20:10, 27 April 2009
 * Life obviously has never used this then. Tbh, it's pretty stupid to try to delete once of the most imba PvE builds. (Also added clarification in my previous reply to prevent stupid responses.) <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 20:11, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, lol@"no more replies"-->owait, one more. <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 20:12, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Slurry, I really suggest you chill out before you annoy Big (he's an admin). And do you really think that your addition is worth fighting over? Because I don't. [[Image:KJ needed a new sig....sig.png]] <font face="Arial" color="gray">20:13, 27 April 2009
 * I'm Infidel, in case you didn't know. Slurry's just my wikia account. I made that "addition" a long time ago, back when the build was finalized. No one objected to it until now, not even a mentioning of it, so I don't see why it should be changed now. And yes, it's quite obvious he's an admin. Think that the whole "sysop" in his sig was a hint, y/n? Anyways, if I do annoy him, I could really care less. It's PvX for fuck's sake. <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 20:17, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * You didn't answer my question. Do you really think this addition is worth fighting for? [[Image:KJ needed a new sig....sig.png]] <font face="Arial" color="gray">20:22, 27 April 2009

(reset indent) I told you, it wasn't an addition. It's been there for almost a year. It shouldn't even be a candidate for fighting over, since it's been there the entire time with no objections. <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 20:24, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Eh, it's not needed. Just leave it off and get over it. No big deal. [[Image:KJ needed a new sig....sig.png]] <font face="Arial" color="gray">20:33, 27 April 2009
 * Honestly, it's only to help the people that run the build, and since the idea of a wiki is to help people, I thought it would be good to have. Everyone that has commented on the build agrees except for you. <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 20:39, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Um.....who else has commented? [[Image:KJ needed a new sig....sig.png]] <font face="Arial" color="gray">20:41, 27 April 2009
 * Look through the archive, plenty of people have commented on the build. And on top of that, who has bitched about it besides you? <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 20:45, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Aight, I've just realized how completely stupid I feel arguing about a worthless sentence. Feel free to add it back in or w/e the hell you feel like. Tbh, I think this build is shit and seriously doubt anyone ever uses it, but for now I'm done messing with this page. I'm going to take my own advice and quit commenting. :D [[Image:KJ needed a new sig....sig.png]] <font face="Arial" color="gray">20:47, 27 April 2009
 * You only think it's shit because you can't run it, most likely. This tares through everything in the game with ease. But, I won't add back in the sentence, just to piss you off by making you waste your time. Good day, sir. <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 20:51, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * What does this convo have anything to do with this build anyways?--mdragon1023 03:48, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * lolwutsatimestamp? That convo was over.....a week ago and it was retarded. But hey, thanks for updating my watchlist Mdragon! [[Image:KJ needed a new sig....sig.png]] <font face="Arial" color="gray">17:20, 4 May 2009
 * Hold on KJ, when did I say I was trying to get it deleted?  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 17:52, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, guess it wasn't you. I seem to remember someone who knew shit about PvE saying that this was a pointless build (seeing as I think only Infidel's guild runs it). But w/e. I'll try to figure out who that was. [[Image:KJ needed a new sig....sig.png]] <font face="Arial" color="gray">18:30, 4 May 2009

thank you sirs or madams to make class fun. and to think i was gonna actually listen to the lecture heehee Funkopotomis 21:10, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
 * maybe anon ;O and the build is good, seeing as rits dont have much else to do in pve anyways except farm (and sw barrage), they have no oped skills D:--Relyk 00:40, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Your welcome, sir/madam Funkopotomis. I figured I'd make my ritualist useful, and this did just that. Also, Relyk, true much. ;o Good day. <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 22:37, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

rit with 60 armor?
ummmm...hows that working out cuz i like the idea but im not sure wats the defence here? Macak24 18:07, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 99 armor. Great Dwarf Armor + Ghostforge insignias. --71.229 18:44, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * + a character with "Save Yourself!" is usually the norm.-- Ikimono <font color ="Teal">Needs more Paragon [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png|24px]] 18:46, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Exactly. You have a minimum of 99 armor if you play correctly, and usually more than that thanks to the stupidly broken SY. <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 19:49, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

WELL
I've run it. --71.229 21:09, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * fixed. ··· Danny   Does   Drugs  21:10, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I still don't understand why people are trying to WELL "theorycraft" that works. Play the fucking build and stop bitching because you don't have a Ritualist. <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 20:21, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Who called that ^. Erection go boom! [[File:KJ badge sig.png]] <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">20:25, 3 June 2009
 * Honestly, I don't see why you all are trying to get this WELL'd. As you can see, I'm not "the only person who runs this". <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 20:30, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, forgot to point out that 71's saying he's ran this throws out your entire argument of "no one runs this". <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 20:32, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Fucking Danny, Look at What You've Done ^
You made infidel start contributing again :/ <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">20:35, 3 June 2009
 * To be honest, I was busy with my job (something many people here on PvX need), but now I get 2 months of no/little work. So I thought I'd hop on here and see what's what, and I notice that people are trying to get this WELL'd for some stupid fucking reasons. Honestly, drop it. This build has been around probably longer than you. <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 20:37, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Um...I would be willing to bet money that all of what you said was a lie. You probably have this page watchlisted and your prefs set to email you when this page is updated, seeing as you only contribute when someone tries to WELL this. [[File:KJ badge sig.png]] <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">20:41, 3 June 2009
 * I actually lol'd. I love how all of you ignorant fucks on here assume that someone holding a job while having an account on wikia is impossible. First, this is watchlisted because I created the page. Second, I don't have it set to email me. If you'd like to attempt to (I'm assuming?) insult me, feel free to. <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 20:45, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, and I'll gladly screenshot my settings+email inbox+email trash can and upload it for you to see, just to prove to you how stupid you are. <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 20:46, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * User:Karate Jesus Some of us have jobs too. And no, I would never insult you. My penis is way too small to attempt that. [[File:KJ badge sig.png]] <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">20:48, 3 June 2009
 * Congratulations, you're better than the majority of the people on the wiki. WELL was removed by Frosty. I suppose this is resolved then. <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 20:51, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * In my experience anything that takes more than 5 seconds of self set up isn't worth using. i.e. The battles are over before you get your shit up. Who needs big domage when the battles already over before your even close to hitting. stop being terrible. No one runs this. ﮎHædõ๘ یíɳ [[image:Shadowsin_sig.PNG|19px]] 21:14, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * having to cast more then 2 spells for prep is retarded, like shadow said. ··· Danny   Does   Drugs  21:17, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Critical Agility, Way of the Master, Aura of Holy Might. [[Image:Frostysig9000.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> the <font color="Blue">Admin 21:18, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

l2reason,l2numbers. <font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> the <font color="Blue">Admin 21:16, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Bad argument is bad, seeing as I run it, 71 says he's ran it/runs it, and I know of about 200+ people that run it. Learn to read the other sections before jumping into a conversation, otherwise you'll make yourself seem retarded. <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 21:18, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Hey, could you go easy on the edit summary, this page will keep popping up on the wikia anti-vandalism irc channel, because of the edit summary using "fuck" <B><font color="Blue">RT </B> 21:18, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * builds with a ridiculous amount of self set up are retarded. ﮎHædõ๘ یíɳ [[image:Shadowsin_sig.PNG|19px]] 21:27, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Critical Agility, Way of the Master, Aura of Holy Might. [[Image:Frostysig9000.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> the <font color="Blue">Admin 21:28, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Builds with a ridiculous amount of self set up are retarded. ﮎHædõ๘ یíɳ [[image:Shadowsin_sig.PNG|19px]] 22:51, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * but they are good[[Image:unrealSignature1.png]] 22:53, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Even if the A/D version has 3, one of them is an IAS with ???? duration, one of them is a quarter cast with no after cast, and the other is 3/4 cast cover; none of which, if removed, will be detrimental to the build itself. This build is ridiculous because A) it has no deep wound B) if enchants are removed is pretty useless C) Has even MORE set up. D) Has to use maintenance skills. so stuff it, compared to the A/D this aint got shit. ﮎHædõ๘  یíɳ [[image:Shadowsin_sig.PNG|19px]] 23:00, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Trying to avoid the drama

 * Sorry, I know that I contributed to the drama, but this doesn't need to be a big emotional issue for anyone here (I mean, come on, it's just a build).
 * Infidel is obviously protective of this build, and several people think it is good and several people think it's bad.
 * So, here's my suggestion: Let's vote-wipe the build and not allow anyone who's been too passionately involved in the build to vote for a little while. Let's see what other people think.
 * How's that sound? [[File:KJ badge sig.png]] <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">21:17, 3 June 2009
 * I'm not protective, I just can't stand people that make obviously-stupid votes. I'm completely fine with the revote. However, how are you going to determine what "involved in the drama" includes? Would that be me, you, and Danny? Or would that include Shadowsin and Frosty, seeing as they were both involved? <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 21:19, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * (ec)Maybe if people gave better reasoning and more sound numbers their votes would stay, but as a matter of a fact, a Scythe with lots of Damage mods (SS being one of the biggest in the game) is always going to be at least good, you don't have to be a genius to work that out. [[Image:Frostysig9000.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> the <font color="Blue">Admin 21:20, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I can't stand when people obviously overrate a build, tbh. And I'd say anyone who's posted on this talk in the past month shouldn't be allowed to vote. And Frosty - this lack the IAS that Critscythe has, has less armor, and why would you not run Discordway regardless? ··· Danny   Does   Drugs  21:22, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * also, inb4 Mystic and Eremite's. Those are 1/2 second activation on a Critscythe, so even more reason to take that over this. ··· Danny   Does   Drugs  21:23, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * ec x a lot. Learn to use builds that AREN'T cookiecutter. Have fun in buildwars, not that monotonous, boring bullshit known as discordway/sabway/racway/whateverthefuck other -way's there are. <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 21:24, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * can't think of a reason i'd want to run a less effective build over a more effective one, tbh. ··· Danny   Does   Drugs  21:28, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You don't have to take 3 heroes D: [[Image:Frostysig9000.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> the <font color="Blue">Admin 21:30, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Tbh, you could run this with Discordway if you really wanted to, although you'd kill everything before Discord could work. Go use the build, be amazed at the numbers you see on-screen, and come apologize for being retarded. <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 21:32, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * More likely, Discord would kill everything first, actually. Not to mention, if you have a full team, then why aren't you running a bunch of overpowered sins with SoH on them? ··· Danny   Does   Drugs  21:34, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * btw. MS/DB with Scan can deal over 300 damage to wurms. I don't think this could beat that in any lifetime. ··· Danny   Does   Drugs  21:34, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Another ec. I've tested it with something similar to Discordway. I can't guarantee that it'll act the same with the actual Discordway, but I can guarantee it'll be damn close to the same results. I use an attack skill, and 3 enemies die. I use another, 3 more die. And I have another attack skill in case I get interrupted. Discord isn't as fast as 2-3 seconds tops. FYI, I can do 396 damage on a critical hit, so gtfo. <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 21:37, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Surprising as this may be, Critscythe can do more, and will always be able to do more, and it has an IAS. ··· Danny   Does   Drugs  21:46, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Surprising as this may be, I don't give a fuck.
 * This works better than most builds in the good category; therefore it should stay in the good category at the least (although, IMO, it should be in the great category). <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 21:51, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Here's an idea
You all can stop caring so much that there's an OP'd build in pve that doesn't involve Discord, Paragons, or Necromancers. Honestly. What difference does it make? <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 21:31, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * This isn't all that OP. That's the issue. It deals big damage and a decent rate, but there's a few dozen other things that deal more damage. ··· Danny   Does   Drugs  21:35, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * And what deals more than 350 damage? Seriously, did you ever even take into account that I have max Deldrimor and max Kurzick? Go use the fucking build and stop being so ignorant and stupid. <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 21:38, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Um...apparently titling something "trying to avoid drama" doesn't avoid drama. Why don't we just vote-wipe and let people who are actually still playing GW vote on it (because most of the people who have voted quit GW a while back). [[File:KJ badge sig.png]] <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">21:41, 3 June 2009
 * Did you take into account that MS/DB Critscythe and WS Dervs all have IAS? That adds up to +50% damage over time, and that's what makes them 100 times better, considering they DON'T need someone else to make them tick. [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]]<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">uɐɟ <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">ɐʞıd  <font color="#FF0033">o <font color="#000000">^_^ <font color="#FF0033">o  <font color="#996600">¸ <font color="#FFCC00">« <font color="#FFCC00">` 21:42, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Vital Weapon works just as well, FYI. And KJ, obviously. That's like saying "DON'T PUSH THIS BUTTON". Everyone will want to push the button. Also, most of the people on PvX don't even play GW, so by your little standards there, there will be very few votes. <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 21:44, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Alright, then how about we just vote-wipe the people who don't even use the site anymore? [[File:KJ badge sig.png]] <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">21:46, 3 June 2009
 * Vital weapon reduces your damage a whole lot, instantly making those previous dozen builds even better. ··· Danny   Does   Drugs  21:47, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Why does it matter whether or not they still visit the site or not? If their vote is not outdated (this build and its comparable builds haven't been changed much at all, besides maybe SoH buff (though SoH can be put on this too)), then it should stay. -- Jai Goes <font color="Purple">Monksassin Monksassin-icon.png 21:49, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * EC again. Vital Weapon reduces it by 30-40. I'd still take 300 damage to 3 targets over 300 damage to 1 target. <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 21:50, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * @Jaigoda. Because PvE metas change, and most of what we do here is store builds that are currently being used and are preferable. In a PUG, this is obviously not preferable. With H/H, this is not preferable. And this is in no way "meta". [[File:KJ badge sig.png]] <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">21:52, 3 June 2009
 * Whoever said this was meta? 90% of the GW population isn't smart enough to run this. Surprising, isn't it, seeing as it's just press 1 through 7 to win. In a PUG, this works, seeing as I use it in PUGs regularly. H/H isn't preferable, although with another human it's infinitely easy and possible. And once again, whoever said this was meta? <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 21:55, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Your reasoning and logic is flawed, not to mention your maths. I cba to argue with shitters any more than I have. You're arguing like you just registered an account here. ··· Danny   Does   Drugs  21:58, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It's called critscythe and WS dervs. IAS + 300+ damage > 300+ damage. It's just not as good as other options. Also, crit % on primary rits < crit % on primary dervs and assassins.[[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]]<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">uɐɟ <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">ɐʞıd  <font color="#FF0033">o <font color="#000000">^_^ <font color="#FF0033">o  <font color="#996600">¸ <font color="#FFCC00">« <font color="#FFCC00">` 21:59, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Honestly, you'd be hard-pressed to find someone who wouldn't admit that PvE is now 90% H/H, unless we're talking about elite areas. But we store team builds specifically for elite areas because you typically can't H/H them in HM. This needs at the very least a PUG to work, and the majority of GW is no longer PUG friendly. So, this seems like a waste of space to me. Be protective of it all you want, but it's just a build. [[File:KJ badge sig.png]] <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">22:00, 3 June 2009
 * @Danny: Elaborate on your autistic logic, and then we'll talk. But since you probably don't have enough sense to elaborate on your own, here's a starter: How is my reasoning flawed?
 * @Pika: It's called thinking outside the box. Having other options. Maybe have fun once in a while instead of grinding out Critscythe 24/7? Also, holy damage=double damage in areas with undead. Like Shards of Orr, which is where I made this build for originally, until I realized it works everywhere.
 * @KJ: Guilds=8-man teams where ever the fuck you want. Deny it all you want, but this works in PUGs, and this works perfectly as long as you have another human.
 * Go play the build ONCE so you all can at least act like you know what you're talking about. <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 22:08, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * No one has a rit--Relyk 22:10, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Love that logic, seeing as I have one, 71 has one, and tons more people have one. gtfo. <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 22:11, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * rage less, no normal pug has the equipment and skills on their rit to run this cause they wouldn't bother finding another person with the same exact build and equipment when they could equip something stupid like WoA and call it a modified version of this build.--Relyk 22:14, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, this is pretty much the best a Rit can do in PvE. Just because it might not quite compare to other professions doesn't mean it automatically must be voted down. Otherwise you could say that MS>DB is superior in just about every way when compared to DS+SY, but DS+SY is the best a warrior can do for maintaining SY, so in my mind, it has reason to stay. -- Jai Goes <font color="Purple">Monksassin Monksassin-icon.png 22:16, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * And you don't need two of these, you need this and someone with GDW, which I run on my smiter 90% of the time. -- Jai Goes <font color="Purple">Monksassin Monksassin-icon.png 22:17, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Maintaining mending on the entire party is a another alternative to party healing. Doesn't make it better than other party healing options. Critscythe does holy damage because it has AoHM too. I voted this build as it is; "Other" because it's inferior to the vetted great builds we have. [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]]<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">uɐɟ <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">ɐʞıd  <font color="#FF0033">o <font color="#000000">^_^ <font color="#FF0033">o  <font color="#996600">¸ <font color="#FFCC00">« <font color="#FFCC00">` 22:17, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * ec x3. Not raging tbh. And you don't *need* 2. You just need someone with Great Dwarf Weapon, which is exactly how I PUG with it. And holy shit, would you look at that! Me and Jai have the same idea: USE IT ON YOURSELF, AND HAVE SOMEONE WITH GDW! Amazing what can happen if you actually have an IQ above 10. <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 22:19, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Which means you are still reliant on another player, which loses universality by a huge lot. [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]]<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">uɐɟ <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">ɐʞıd  <font color="#FF0033">o <font color="#000000">^_^ <font color="#FF0033">o  <font color="#996600">¸ <font color="#FFCC00">« <font color="#FFCC00">` 22:21, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * idk a lot of pugs can afford to bring gdw--Relyk 22:22, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Imo, vote wipe, revote, and if it goes under 2.50, archive it (with the Asuran Scan buff as the reason). Critscythes couldn't match the damage before, because no one wanted to wait 2 seconds to cast Asuran Scan, and this Rit can't fit Asuran Scan on its bar without losing something important. This was awesome until that buff, tbh. ــѕт. мıкε  22:24, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * (oops, wrote in wrong place, response to pika) Mending sucks in all ways. This is barely inferior, if at all, to other melee builds. -- Jai Goes <font color="Purple">Monksassin Monksassin-icon.png 22:21, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * WS dervs does 1 1/2 times more damage over time compared to this; what makes you think that this build is not that much inferior if it loses out so much damage compared to the critscythe/derv counterparts? [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]]<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">uɐɟ <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">ɐʞıd  <font color="#FF0033">o <font color="#000000">^_^ <font color="#FF0033">o  <font color="#996600">¸ <font color="#FFCC00">« <font color="#FFCC00">` 22:28, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * If you had actually taken the time to read up on what universality was, you would have known that a significant portion comes from whether the build functions if another ally does not perform optimally. [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]]<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">uɐɟ <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">ɐʞıd  <font color="#FF0033">o <font color="#000000">^_^ <font color="#FF0033">o  <font color="#996600">¸ <font color="#FFCC00">« <font color="#FFCC00">` 22:28, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * i was not aware pugs are total autists at casting gdw on another persons, you wouldn't run this with idiot pugs anyways--Relyk 22:31, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * MS>DB does far more damage, including AoE, than DS+SY, can still mostly maintain SY and with no 25/15-sec downtime, and can also kocklock just about as well as DS+SY. Does that mean DY+SY should be in other? It's also inferior to newer warrior builds as well. -- Jai Goes <font color="Purple">Monksassin Monksassin-icon.png 22:32, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * ec x2. Hey there Mike ;o haven't seen you around in a while. Anyways: I agree with Mike (as I said earlier that I'm fine with a revote). Also, though, check the variants, I have Asuran Scan listed in place of GDW in the event that you don't have another Rit. After thinking about it, it might be better to take that over GDW anyways, and just rely on another person for GDW. But then that'd be a dupe of the other build I authored, except that is a derv primary, this is rit primary. Now, I'm going to go eat some dinner, do something productive, and leave this as is. Whatever you intellects/autists (whichever category you fall under; you should know) decide to do, I will see tomorrow. Have fun. <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 22:33, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Lol@indent. IMO, an optional for Vital Wep/Asuran Scan, and if you have another player then have them bring GDW. This is easily as good as other builds (especially with Asuran Scan, lol). -- Jai Goes <font color="Purple">Monksassin Monksassin-icon.png 22:38, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * this wouldn't be an issue if spirit's strength didn't have to be the only elite melee skill on a caster, who has very limited set of skills for melee anyways--Relyk 22:40, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * And you think THAT is bad design by Anet? Have you seen the updates this year? At least SS encourages creative melee-caster builds... The recent updates have simply encouraged brokenness. -- Jai Goes <font color="Purple">Monksassin Monksassin-icon.png 22:44, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You seem to misunderstand the purpose of PvX: to store the MOST EFFECTIVE and UPDATED(Meta) builds, not CREATIVE builds. CREATIVE builds go into userspaces; they do not belong in mainspace. [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]]<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">uɐɟ <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">ɐʞıd  <font color="#FF0033">o <font color="#000000">^_^ <font color="#FF0033">o  <font color="#996600">¸ <font color="#FFCC00">« <font color="#FFCC00">` 22:48, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Except this would be archived. ــѕт.  мıкε  22:49, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Or shoved into Other simply because this build is outdated. Just like ZB monks, nothing was really touched in the build but WoH/HB/UA just took over simply because they were better. [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]]<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">uɐɟ <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">ɐʞıd  <font color="#FF0033">o <font color="#000000">^_^ <font color="#FF0033">o  <font color="#996600">¸ <font color="#FFCC00">« <font color="#FFCC00">` 22:54, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

WS Derv (5-5-x build)

 * 70 armor which you can compensate with windwalker insignias
 * Access to spammable covered DW
 * Runes into Scythe Mastery gives an upper edge with crit rate and +% damage
 * Uses Asuran Scan
 * Has AoHM
 * Has IAS, which provides +50% damage over time
 * Not dependant on other people to make this effective

Rt/D

 * +14 armor compared to the derv, big deal, 14 armor in PvE when you still need prot spirit to mitigate 100-200 damage commonly found in HM
 * No access to DW unless you sacrifce your spammable scythe skills and e management -0.5 effectiveness
 * No runes into Scythe Mastery results in lesser crit rate and +% damage -0.25 effectiveness
 * Can't put Asuran Scan without sacrificing another key skill, but tries to compensate with Spirit's Strength, which is not as good as Asuran Scan -0.25 effectiveness
 * Has AoHM
 * Has no IAS -1 effectiveness
 * Extremely reliant on other peoples' performance to make this effective, the moment your ally forgets to GDW, or GDW late, you lose pretty much more than half your damage to GDW AND SS -3 universality

Total: 3-2-x

<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">uɐɟ <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">ɐʞıd  <font color="#FF0033">o <font color="#000000">^_^ <font color="#FF0033">o  <font color="#996600">¸ <font color="#FFCC00">« <font color="#FFCC00">` 22:48, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * if ss gets ripped your useless low armored frontliner for 30seconds.[[Image:unrealSignature1.png]] 22:49, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Just need to cover it with GDA. [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]]<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">uɐɟ <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">ɐʞıd  <font color="#FF0033">o <font color="#000000">^_^ <font color="#FF0033">o  <font color="#996600">¸ <font color="#FFCC00">« <font color="#FFCC00">` 22:52, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Funny thing is, you contain a lot of redundancy. If you're running vital, you don't need reliance on GDW. If you're running GDW on someone else, you take Asuran scan for what I would assume to be 500-600 damage strikes. And 14 damage does still make some difference in the long run, +.25. DW doesn't matter when you're killing something in two hits anyway (the amount of hits you'd need for DW to actually trigger, actually: first to deal the DW, second to trigger). It also has big fucking domoges to make up for any lack of IAS, +whateverthefuckyouneedtomake5. -- Jai Goes <font color="Purple">Monksassin Monksassin-icon.png 23:02, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Funny thing is, without GDA you lose the only thing that can compensate for the damage gap between Asuran Scan and Spirits Strength. No IAS means you deal 50% less damage which compounds the gap already caused by running vital weapon. You gain universality but lose a whole ton of effectiveness. DW means that you kill mobs and bosses in HM which have increased health faster. The fact that the dervish already has equal or more DPS WITHOUT IAS already disproves your argument. Please do your maths before commenting. [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]]<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">uɐɟ <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">ɐʞıd  <font color="#FF0033">o <font color="#000000">^_^ <font color="#FF0033">o  <font color="#996600">¸ <font color="#FFCC00">« <font color="#FFCC00">` 23:08, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * ss rits are retarded. get over it. ﮎHædõ๘ یíɳ [[image:Shadowsin_sig.PNG|19px]] 23:05, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Again, you're still not accounting for the fact that if it doesn't have Scan (and is thus using Vital Wep) then its universality should go up to at least 4 because it is no longer dependant on another player. And also, you never adressed the fact that this does a far better job of blowing up PvE than any other rit build, and while it might be considered inferior to builds of other professions, it's still much better than the other Great rit builds. In other words, we either need to delete/archive all of the rit builds, or let this be in Great. -- Jai Goes <font color="Purple">Monksassin Monksassin-icon.png 00:02, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Excuse me? You clearly don't know how vetting works in PvX, you aren't here longer than most people here. Effectiveness accounts for 80% of the total score; Universality accounts for 20% of the rating. What's the use if you gain universality that is unable to compensate for the loss in effectiveness? You should read how comparing builds work here; we compare builds that are extremely similar in purpose, not by profession. If you cannot accept how PvX works, please leave, and stop wasting everyone's time. This clearly does not belong in Great. Go to GamePendium and peddle all your "fun" and "creative" builds, stop getting in the way of the purpose of the site, to store EFFECTIVE and META builds. [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]]<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">uɐɟ <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">ɐʞıd  <font color="#FF0033">o <font color="#000000">^_^ <font color="#FF0033">o  <font color="#996600">¸ <font color="#FFCC00">« <font color="#FFCC00">` 00:13, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, other rit builds mostly focus on SUPPORT, you do NOT compare SUPPORT builds with builds that focus on DAMAGE. [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]]<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">uɐɟ <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">ɐʞıd  <font color="#FF0033">o <font color="#000000">^_^ <font color="#FF0033">o  <font color="#996600">¸ <font color="#FFCC00">« <font color="#FFCC00">` 00:15, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * (EC)There are only this many rit builds left in tested PvE:
 * Build:Rt/D Great Dwarf Spirit
 * Build:Rt/D Tsungrai Forge Runner
 * Build:Rt/E Shadow Sliver
 * Build:Rt/E Songkai's Supporter
 * Build:Rt/E WoQ Support Ritualist
 * Build:Rt/Me Vengeful Farmer
 * Build:Rt/Me Vengeful Raptor HM
 * Build:Rt/Mo 105hp Vengeful Veil
 * Build:Rt/Mo 330hp Vengeful Spirit Bonder
 * Build:Rt/Mo SoH Channeling Ritualist
 * Build:Rt/N PvE Curses Physical Support
 * Build:Rt/R Barrage Super Splinter
 * Build:Rt/W Smite Crawler Farmer
 * Build:Rt/W Vengeful Was for Smites
 * Build:Rt/any Attuned was Songkai Healer
 * Build:Rt/any Mobile Spirits
 * Build:Rt/any OoS Support Ritualist
 * Build:Rt/any Ritualist of Remedy
 * Build:Rt/any Spirit SW Support
 * Build:Rt/any WoF Support Ritualist
 * And half of these are farming builds. We can't really archive/delete them anymore than that. I know if I were to pick up Guild Wars again and create another PvE character, the Rit would be my last choice. I think we should put a Well tag on the Rit profession (in PvE, at least). XD ــѕт.  мıкε  00:17, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I hear Rt/Mo is good at bitchrole, actually:


 * --Mafaraxas 04:22, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Splinter isn't needed because it doesn't stack with GDW and GDW should be on 2-3 melees anyway. Also, any profession can do SoH+GDW, and most aren't limited to shitty rit skills.
 * Oh, and Pika, you completely failed at understanding what I wrote. I was commenting on your build rating, nothing else. Also, the WELL page states that "things to take into account are the purpose of the build, the profession, and the area where the build is meant to be used." And I was referencing all of the other rit builds simply to make a point. If you want, you can ignore that part since looking at the rit builds, every one of the is support (redundacy much?). -- Jai Goes <font color="Purple">Monksassin Monksassin-icon.png 04:44, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I didn't misunderstand; most, if not all of your whining thus far had something to do with advocating "creative" but "less effective" builds, not limited to that really terrible DZ smiter and this. Rating has no bearing on WELL, which only reinforces the fact that you have no idea how the vetting system works here in PvX. Also, you have no idea what "redundancy" means; seeing as you used the word but didn't point out one. Stop wasting people's time, and actually read up on the policies on PvX, your selective reading is just misleading others and yourself. Also, please brush up on your english; at least make yourself understandable. [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]]<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">uɐɟ <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">ɐʞıd  <font color="#FF0033">o <font color="#000000">^_^ <font color="#FF0033">o  <font color="#996600">¸ <font color="#FFCC00">« <font color="#FFCC00">` 05:00, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I never have advocated creative builds for the sake of creativity. I've only advocated builds that I have felt are useful enough to be seen (the Boon Smite I knew wasn't optimal, but I wanted to keep it around until I could test it, and people were giving fail reasons for why it was bad anyway). And the part I quoted is under 'Clearly inferior builds,' and considering you think this is inferior to other melee profs, it applies to this argument. And I've read the majority of policies on PvX, and I don't see where you're getting all this shit about me not reading them. Also, I know perfectly well what redundancy means. I was saying that we have about 5 rit builds all dedicated to the role of support, all but one focusing mainly on melee support, in the Great category alone (which, IMO, is quite redundant, considering they all do very similar jobs...). And I'm not the one with english problems, lol. Stop trying to nitpick every fucking word I write and start making real arguments about the build. -- Jai Goes <font color="Purple">Monksassin Monksassin-icon.png 05:24, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Orly? You don't test your builds before you post them, nor do you actually bother to go past the thick-skin handed down to you from generation to generation to understand why you are wrong and others are right. The reason you are QQing on this build is because it contains SS, and you think that SS encourages melee-caster builds so it's really fun and should be kept. This build wasn't inferior until the buff of asuran scan, the damage output is more or less on par with critscythes and WS dervs. You clearly practice selective reading or you would have saw that. Some of those 5 rit builds you have mentioned are pretty outdated anyway, if you want you can take the initiative to archive or well them accordingly, and should not be used as an excuse to justify putting this in Great or Good for that matter. Excuse me? I didn't give a proper argument? Did you inherit blindness or retardation too? Please look at the top of this section, and maybe you will understand why you are so deluded. [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]]<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">uɐɟ <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">ɐʞıd   <font color="#FF0033">o <font color="#000000">^_^ <font color="#FF0033">o  <font color="#996600">¸ <font color="#FFCC00">« <font color="#FFCC00">` 05:41, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, and stop using the criteria for WELLing as an argument for a totally different issue like rating. It's like trying to compare a cow and a bird. [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]]<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">uɐɟ <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">ɐʞıd  <font color="#FF0033">o <font color="#000000">^_^ <font color="#FF0033">o  <font color="#996600">¸ <font color="#FFCC00">« <font color="#FFCC00">` 05:47, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow, dude, it seems you're totally bent on attacking people who aren't PvX vets. And I've said somewhere that I don't test builds as much as I should because I can't play often. This means I theorycraft a lot, yeah. But I understand GW enough to know when something works or it doesn't. And jesus christ pika, l2read, I said that Anet tried to encourage melee-casters by making SS, and it wasn't as terrible of an idea as other things they've done in the past (it's still a bad idea). And again, this can run Asuran Scan too, y'know? I provide an argument to something, and you misread my post and go on about 'selective reading' and shit. And I GAVE you a list of why your stupid 'comparison' was false, and you were rating incorrectly, and you go on after me about all this crap that makes no sense.
 * Oh, and if you actually looked at the WELL page and saw what I was referencing to, you would understand that the section can obviously apply to multiple parts of the wiki, including ratings. If you continue to argue semantics, I'm simply going to ignore your post as I've already told you why you are wrong several times over. Have a nice evening. -- Jai Goes <font color="Purple">Monksassin Monksassin-icon.png 06:10, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Last thing, then my head hits the pillow. I'm just laughing going back and reading this. Unlike our last encounter over at DZ, you're the one that's grasping at straws and not making any sense. I'm sure that in the back of your mind, you know that you're wrong on this subject, and eventually you're gonna have to give it up (or at least I'm hoping so - if not, then I call mental health issues being involved). And here's my friendly suggestion: Rather than trolling someone's english/intelligence when your point has obviously been refuted, just let it go, maybe make another argument, and just get on with your fucking life. GG's,  Jai Goes <font color="Purple">Monksassin Monksassin-icon.png 06:23, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * PvX isn't a place for theorycrafts. Which part of "isn't a place for theorycrafts" do you not understand? Let me correct you, I only attack retards, which in this case refers to you. Oh, try to lie convincingly, the entire page is littered with full of whinings about creativity on your one-sided part. Also, you do know that running Asuran Scan on this build effectively makes your energy rock-bottom 99% of the time? Dervishes and Assassins can easily maintain AScan on recharge, because they have superior e management. I did explain to you why your counter-argument to my comparison was flawed; and if you flip back, your only comeback is to start whining about WELLing when we were talking about rating. Seriously, the Down's gene run in your family.
 * I did, and has nothing on applying to other parts of the wiki except the vague portion where admins will take into account votes and talkpage. If anyone is grasping on to thin straws and arguing semantics, it is you.
 * Everyone except maybe the author and you understands why this build is inferior to other options, carry living in your perfect little delusion, continue laughing if it helps you cope with the fact that your lack of intellect can't keep up with facts clearly displayed on this page. If your retardation and command of English gets in the way of posting a valid argument, why, it is my right and obligation to point that out because it's affecting your judgement. Just seek professional help, find some brain donor, or even better, just shoot yourself in the head and clean the corrupted gene pool threatening the future of mankind. Dear me, arguing with idiots really makes me feel like my IQ's just dropped a few points. [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]]<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">uɐɟ <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">ɐʞıd  <font color="#FF0033">o <font color="#000000">^_^ <font color="#FF0033">o  <font color="#996600">¸ <font color="#FFCC00">« <font color="#FFCC00">` 06:41, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Huge wall of blah. Also, PvX:NPA, b&, etc. Oh, and did you know that in those two paragraphs above you wrote no more than 3 sentences on the actual build? And where the hell have I been whining on this talk page? I don't whine, I get stuck in arguments against people who can't understand how to actually have a discussion. Instead of actually arguing my points, you're simply resorting to personal attacks and give no reason for my points being wrong other than that I'm a retard. Eh? So if I called you a retard, would that mean that your argument would go away? It'd be pretty damn cool, but ain't gonna happen. Oh, and last thing: If builds that are inferior to other different-profession builds deserve to be deleted, then many of the Great builds need to be killed, such as DS+SY, Triple Chop, Quivering Blade, pretty much all of the rit builds, all of the non-smite monk builds (ER eles), and a ton more that are inferior to builds of other professions. If you're too dense to see that the profession does matter when comparing professions, then I don't think there's any hope arguing with you anymore. To quote Ensign, "don't argue with idiots. They bring you to their level and beat you with experience." -- Jai Goes <font color="Purple">Monksassin Monksassin-icon.png 14:18, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Sure, it may violate NPA, but the truth always hurts. Have you heard of a red herring? That's exactly what you did; we were comparing effectiveness and universality, but you decided to bring up the WELL policy. So I decided to entertain you, and now you accuse me of not following the argument that you yourself deviated from in the first place. You are a retard, there is no other explanation why you can't keep on to one topic, and that you can't seem to understand what it means by giving a proper argument. Since you didn't want to continue the constructive discussion.
 * FYI, we stopped at the part you said "Again, you're still not accounting for the fact that if it doesn't have Scan (and is thus using Vital Wep) then its universality should go up to at least 4 because it is no longer dependant on another player.".
 * Which I replied saying that you lose effectiveness for universality, which defeats the whole purpose. You lose damage, you gain independance from another player.
 * You decided to change the topic, seeing as you starting giving red herrings such as I misunderstood what you were saying, and that you were referring to my rating in particular, bla bla bla.
 * I said I didn't misunderstand; you had no idea how the rating system works - Effectiveness 80%, Universality 20%. Then it all degenerated because you insisted on bringing a totally different and unrelated policy into the issue.
 * If that's your idea of a good argument, by all means, indulge yourself in lies. Keep deceiving yourself that you are right. Just like the DZ smiter, always adamant that you are right. Thanks for reminding me, though, I shouldn't argue with idiots. Nowadays, parents no longer lead their offspring to think intelligently, I should just let blithering idiots blither. Funny thing though, as much as I would like to have some faith in parents and teachers. [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]]<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">uɐɟ <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">ɐʞıd  <font color="#FF0033">o <font color="#000000">^_^ <font color="#FF0033">o  <font color="#996600">¸ <font color="#FFCC00">« <font color="#FFCC00">` 15:04, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

You're doing it wrong
Why do frontliners have GDW? This shouldnt have been vetted at all. Imo, make a 3 man team build with the Rt/D's with asuran scan instead of GDW, and make the third char a buffer(SoH, GDW, etc). Then you'll have a build that actually does work. As it is now, you're compromising your damage on the energy spent on GDW and the time spent casting it. In addition, drop DPS for something actually useful, and drop GDA for drunken master. Armor doesn't mean shit if you can prot spirit correctly.  Life  23:05, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * ^[[Image:unrealSignature1.png]] 23:06, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Or run an actual dervish and be good at the game ^^. ﮎHædõ๘ یíɳ [[image:Shadowsin_sig.PNG|19px]] 23:07, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Sins have bigger domages.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 23:08, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I was going to say sins but meh. I liek teh dervish. looks likem grim reapers. ﮎHædõ๘ یíɳ [[image:Shadowsin_sig.PNG|19px]] 23:09, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Dervs are easier to calculate, so stfu. I still <3 you though bbz. [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]]<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">uɐɟ <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">ɐʞıd  <font color="#FF0033">o <font color="#000000">^_^ <font color="#FF0033">o  <font color="#996600">¸ <font color="#FFCC00">« <font color="#FFCC00">` 23:09, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Shadowsin si best person at pve ever--Relyk 23:18, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Life, use a bit of common sense, jsut because a buffer isn't listed doesn't mean you can't take one.... <font color="#4F94CD"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#9400D3">Sysop   12:30, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Phen, use a bit of common sense, jsut because a buffer can be run doesn't mean you can manage the energy needed.... [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]]<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">uɐɟ <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">ɐʞıd  <font color="#FF0033">o <font color="#000000">^_^ <font color="#FF0033">o  <font color="#996600">¸ <font color="#FFCC00">« <font color="#FFCC00">` 12:41, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

So...
Are we vote-wiping or not? I think Michael made a good case for it. <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">13:56, 4 June 2009
 * Dear god I thought people were fine with it in good and everyone would shut up, but apparently everyone cares enough to double the size of this page! [[Image:Frostysig9000.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> the <font color="Blue">Admin 14:00, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yea, we like making your job harder :D [[File:KJ badge sig.png]] <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">14:01, 4 June 2009
 * Well since so many people things it's bad and great, good it will be. I really cba to go through everyone saying it's worse than this it can do this much damage it has no IAS it has no asuran scan blah blah. [[Image:Frostysig9000.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> the <font color="Blue">Admin 14:17, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

So, I've read all these huge fucking walls of texts.
I'd like to point out that this is in the great category, yet this and this are a lot better choices, AND both are current meta. So why do we still have the former build listed under great? It's obviously inferior, so let's go WELL it/vote it down!!1!1!!!one! According to you, a WS derv is the best fucking thing since sex. Then why do we have other dervish builds in the great category? Let's just go WELL them all and/or vote them down! Honestly, practice what you preach. And to whichever one of you said (I think it was Pika) that PvX only stores the best builds/meta builds, then what the fuck is the "good" and "other" categories for? Let's just go delete every fucking build there because we have builds in the "great" category that does it better. Now, if I rework this into a 3-man build (or 2-man, even) with one/two Rt/D and one caster that spam Offering of Spirit, maintains SoH on the rit(s), maintains GDA on the rit(s) (probably Prot Spirit, since it's HM), and maintains GDW on the rit(s), will you all stop bitching? The rits will have Asuran Scan and Drunken Master--an IAS and even more damage, which is the source of your argument of inferiority. Also, you'll have a dedicated person to maintaining shit, and if they're too stupid to watch 2 bars, then they need to uninstall. But chances are, you all will continue to bitch. But please ponder this new proposal, and make a good argument against it this time. (If this were an actual debate, Jai would be dominating tbh.) <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 14:18, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * ^^^^^ GG's. -- Jai Goes <font color="Purple">Monksassin Monksassin-icon.png 14:22, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Not really. He's assuming that GWs isn't a dead game and that PvX has people on it that can be fucking bothered to clean up 2-3 years worth of shit that's landed wherever we felt like putting it before never looking at it ever again. Using the argument that "Why would you try and get rid of 'shit' if there's so much shit elsewhere on the wiki?" is all sorts of retarded. <font face="Courier New">C:\PvX>Abort, Retry, Panic?[[Image:Panic_Sig_Cursor.gif]] 14:25, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Good job at reading the rest of the comment. <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 14:27, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, I forgot to mention. What would make this "shit" be singled out for attempted WELLing/deletion, and not the other shit? <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 14:29, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * EVERYONE LOOK! There are worse builds over there -->
 * Go quickly and vote them down while no longer paying attention to this build. [[File:KJ badge sig.png]] <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">14:35, 4 June 2009
 * I'm not saying to turn your attention to other builds. I'm asking why this build is being singled out when there are other cases identical to it. Stop avoiding the question. <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 14:36, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Good job at continuing to make no sense, Infidel. I read the whole thing; I just don't give a fuck if you rewrite it or not as it's irrelevant to my counter-point. Also, the reason it's being "singled out" is that someone stumbled across it and suggested it be changed/removed. There's not enough people who give a shit to track down all the "bad" builds and deal with them at the same time. <font face="Courier New">C:\PvX>Abort, Retry, Panic?[[Image:Panic_Sig_Cursor.gif]] 14:40, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Red Rock Candy go go, we have builds that require consets, so why not candy? <font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> the <font color="Blue">Admin 14:37, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Ratings are all relative to each other,but outdated ratings means some things remain in catagories they shouldnt be in. I think this happened to this build. I have no doubt this was once worth 5-5 but now new and better builds have replaced it  <font color="SeaGreen">athrunfeya [[Image:User_Athrun_Feya_sig_image.jpg]] <font color="SeaGreen">speaks  14:41, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, so people don't whine and complain if a build requires cons? Then Red Rock Candy it is.
 * @Panic: A rewrite would shut up most every complaint against the build, so I'm not seeing how it isn't a counterpoint. Make a better argument. <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 14:43, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * @ Slurry. I'm tempted to trash any single build that doesn't work with H/H or isn't designed for an elite area. [[File:KJ badge sig.png]] <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">14:44, 4 June 2009
 * I'm going to assume good faith and say that wasn't sarcasm (although it's obvious it is). At any rate, if you decide to, I'll gladly argue for any build that I feel is good enough to stay on PvX. A lot of the "other" builds fall into your category, and a lot of them I could care less about. Have fun. <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 14:47, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * That's beside the point. Your argument was that the build shouldn't be trashed becaus there's stuff in Great, Good, and Other that are rated far better than they should be. My counter argument is that it's that way because no one cares enough to clean it all up. You rewriting the build doesn't have anything to do with my criticism of how stupid your argument was. <font face="Courier New">C:\PvX>Abort, Retry, Panic?[[Image:Panic_Sig_Cursor.gif]] 14:51, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Is it that hard to delete every build in the other category/most builds in the good category in the PvE section? If PvX is about keeping only the meta and elite builds, then delete all the builds that don't qualify. As for overrated and outdated builds, it's quite obvious. Check the elite, compare it to the elites of the other builds in the great category=success. A lot of builds have the elite in the title, so it's not that hard. <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 14:55, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It is actually, since an admin has to delete the page and before we can do that we have to go through stupid conversations like this every time. Also there is a policy proposal at the moment with a lot of backing that will hopefully mean we get rid of all the shit or hide it in a small dark corner somewhere to fester. <font face="Courier New">C:\PvX>Abort, Retry, Panic?[[Image:Panic_Sig_Cursor.gif]] 15:03, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It wasn't sarcasm, I think you may have read it in a way I didn't mean it to be understood (surprise!). What I'm saying is that:
 * Yes, people use cons for PvE. Where do they use cons? Oh, that's right. Elite areas that actually need them. In general pve, why are you wasting cons when any other build doesn't need them?
 * In general PvE, the majority of GW players H/H and who are builds on PvX designed for? Oh, yeah, the majority of players. If you want a build designed for your guild or alliance, then keep it in your namespace. No normal player will run this regularly.
 * No, you wouldn't argue for "any build that [you] feel is good enough to stay of PvX". You will argue for your builds and ONLY your builds. How do I know this? Because that's all your last 50 contribs have been.
 * I like bullet points.
 * The end. [[File:KJ badge sig.png]] <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">14:56, 4 June 2009
 * I can say I am shocked that it wasn't sarcasm. It's not really designed for my guild. As you can see, Jai (who isn't in my guild) uses this. Frosty is vouching for it. I'm sure there are others on here that use it.
 * If you would've read earlier, you'd know I designed this for Shards of Orr (eotn dungeonzzz!!1!).
 * Like I said: I'll argue for any builds that I use/think are good enough to stay. I use this, and I think it's good enough to stay; therefore I'm arguing for it. If this was authored by someone else who came up with the idea before me, I'd still argue for it. <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 15:00, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, and on PvX, there is no such thing as someone owning a build. You can author a build, but it isn't "your" build. <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 15:03, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Obvious bullshit is obvious. Anyone here can tell that you are defensive of this build and the reason is also obvious. Oh, and if you intended this to be for SoO from the beginning (which isn't true, btw), then you need to say that in the build article. [[File:KJ badge sig.png]] <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">15:05, 4 June 2009
 * I lol'd. I run a 4-man team to speedclear Shards, 2 of the people running a minor variation of this. It was originally for Shards because of all of the undead (double damages=400-600+), but it works everywhere because of the huge damage without the double damage trigger from holy damage. <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 15:10, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Update to shut everybody up


Optionals on buffer for e-manage (can be run by any caster pretty much considering they all have some form of crazy e-manage). <font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> the <font color="Blue">Admin 14:54, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Drop Drunken Master for "BUH!" and use rock candies tbh. <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 14:56, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It could be optional, it's just so people don't start complaining saying CRIT SCYTHE DOESN'T NEED CONS zzz [[Image:Frostysig9000.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> the <font color="Blue">Admin 14:59, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Also I am tempted to write it up unless you want to, I have hawt idea's for the buffer. You can do the math :> [[Image:Frostysig9000.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> the <font color="Blue">Admin 15:00, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Fine by me. Write it up here, or on a new page? Edit: Fine by me=you can write page, I'll do maths. <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 15:01, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Cons for general pve = you're doing it wrong. Why do you like this build Frosty? It just seems out of character for you. And no one will ever run that rework. Less armor = bad on frontliner. And who wants to run that much prep? [[File:KJ badge sig.png]] <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">15:03, 4 June 2009
 * Where's less armor? It still has GDA. <span style="color:deeppink;font-family:Monotype Corsiva, Courier New, Courier, monotype;font-size:120%">--Slurry. 15:05, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Are those Rt/Ds just going to just sit in zealous set? They have no way of maintaining energy for AScan like critscythe and co. [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]]<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">uɐɟ <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">ɐʞıd  <font color="#FF0033">o <font color="#000000">^_^ <font color="#FF0033">o  <font color="#996600">¸ <font color="#FFCC00">« <font color="#FFCC00">` 15:09, 4 June 2009 (UTC)