Archive talk:Team - Underworld Speed Clear/Archive 1

ohaider
i have both a monk and a permasin. I never did this run but its the only thing they run in ToA so i wna do it too:p it looks pretty complicated to do all this... what would you recommend 2 play for me? CloseImpact Too Muh Bruh  06:28, 23 August 2008 (EDT)

lol epic fail question - ToA AD 1, join a group and fail. Gogogo! --89.241.67.91 12:40, 1 January 2009 (EST)

New Meta
is not ursans, it's a permasin with a DB dagger chain and 2 necros, FoC and SS. 65.35.75.168 16:34, 5 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Current meta = http://gwshack.us/59a4 Ashes 05:48, 8 October 2008 (EDT)
 * yh so this needs updating [[Image:That Twin Tom sig.jpg|19px]] That  Twin   Tom  14:18, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Updated the page to the current meta. --Dasen 09:12, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
 * shoudlnt have been updated should have been archived i reckon [[Image:That Twin Tom sig.jpg|19px]] That  Twin   Tom  10:21, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
 * neway ur necros were bit outdated u definately dont need two. N/Rt is better and allows for an extra terra but left in two necro version cause well sumpeople use it[[Image:That Twin Tom sig.jpg|19px]] That  Twin   Tom  11:39, 24 October 2008 (EDT)


 * N/Rt is slower than SS+FoC and if you need a 7th Terra, your group kinda yells "Hai wur baed". Also; most people use SS+FoC, for reasons already said, thus I vote for the N/Rt being the variant... -- ›[[Image:Many srs beans.png|Srs Bean Mafia.]] Srs Beans R Srs  12:25, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
 * seriously? SS+FoC is faster for Vale but wit an extra terra the other areas get done much faster and youve got an extra person as backup. the terra areas always take longer so better that they get sped but rather than the vale which is the quikest area [[Image:That Twin Tom sig.jpg|19px]] That  Twin   Tom  13:15, 24 October 2008 (EDT)

Most groups now take n/rt instead of ss+foc because as stated above overall it's quicker. SS+FoC should be put as varients 92.4.72.103 20:04, 26 October 2008 (EDT)
 * itis [[Image:That Twin Tom sig.jpg|19px]] That  Twin   Tom  16:49, 30 October 2008 (EDT)

Archive
Because of the nerf to Essences, the eles can no longer keep up SF with just Paradox. Although the run still works, the builds need a complete overhaul. I think this should be archived and started from scratch. --173.48.93.54 15:32, 7 November 2008 (EST)
 * srsly? 33%+20%=53%. they should still be able to keep it up... it still gets the recharge up to 50% which is the cap anyway.. Sir Nothing  [OUCH]  15:43, 7 November 2008 (EST)
 * Don't recharge modifiers stack like critical modifiers? Multiplicative, not additional? --173.48.93.54 15:54, 7 November 2008 (EST)
 * Actually I believe they are additive unlike most things, the cap is 50% anyway. -- Frosty [[Image:Mini england.jpg|19px]] 15:56, 7 November 2008 (EST)
 * that's exactly why this doesnt need to get archived. Sir Nothing  [OUCH]  15:59, 7 November 2008 (EST)
 * No, it is multiplicative. Try it yourself on 13 Shadow Arts. You will need about three seconds on recharge.

On 14 Shadow Arts, you can keep up Shadow Form with Essence of Celerity and Deadly Paradox. If you don't want to be popping Candy Corn, you will need to put in Glyph of Swiftness into your build to use Glyph of Swiftness + Deadly Paradox ---> Shadow Form Cope Land 15:57, 7 November 2008 (EST)
 * I was right. SF ends while the next one is casting (see picture).  It's a small downtime, but it's more than enough time to take 40 damage.  It will work with +attribute cons or GoS, but it cannot be kept up with just Essence and Deadly.  As such, I again call for archive, overhaul, or telling people that with these builds they need +att cons.  --173.48.93.54 16:17, 7 November 2008 (EST)
 * So if eles cant keep sf up we could change it to all sins? ShureShot [[Image:Quick_Shot.jpg|19px]] Masta Rangah! 17:18, 7 November 2008 (EST)
 * It would work, just slower. However, some people above us were arguing for an archive because of a meta change.  If we're going to change the eles to sins, this definitely should be archived. --173.48.93.54 17:20, 7 November 2008 (EST)
 * Archived. If any1 disagrees, revert edit then. --Dasen 09:03, 8 November 2008 (EST)

Still possible
Use a Grail of Might and Glyph of Swiftness instead of an Essence of Celerity. Its a bit slower but still works.  SniperFox  07:28, 9 November 2008 (EST)

And replace what on certain bars? Ok the wastes and pits will be fine doing that but they will still lose the IMS from essence and the pools+mtn don't have any rooms on their bars (from what i play). So what do you suggest Sniper? Farmingftw 08:52, 9 November 2008 (EST)
 * You can still use candy or use a sin. I say unarchived. Mason717 19:52, 13 November 2008 (EST)
 * I agree, there are still many groups looking for UWSC, I say un-archive but put the E/As as A/Es, because that is what most people are running. Puebert 12:41, 7 December 2008 (EST)

for vale necro
why not use superier runes? health really doesnt matter for the build?

Un-archived
The fact that the build still works and is one of the most effective ways of clearing by simply switching the E/As to A/Es permits the build to be unarchived. I have the updated builds for the vale team and the perma's on a different computer and I will post them ASAP. If you have them feel free to edit as you wish. The current meta uses 6 sins who terra diff areas and 1 sin + 1 N/Rt for the vale team. Happy hunting. M a g ne t o x

Pools Build
Being an Ex-perma, your pools build disgusts me :) Add IaU over WoS Ele Masmar 00:31, 26 December 2008 (EST)

Pits
Death's charge needs to be mainbar on both the pits builds. Also, an A/Me is THE fastest way to clear pits, and should be on here.  Life  17:30, 26 December 2008 (EST)
 * Feel free to put "the fastest builds" in as they come. The team is going to be constantly updated. 23:05, 26 December 2008 (EST)

Necro builds
I've always wondered, Signet of Corruption, why its there. Since most of the time you'll only have one enemy hexed, you wont get more than 2 energy off this. Unless theres a hidden purpose I don't see... Signet of the lost souls is surely better energy menagement here, imho Asmo 21:19, 27 December 2008 (EST)
 * I've just read the article, and I was wondering about that too.--El Nazgir 05:12, 29 December 2008 (EST)
 * when the souls illusion of haste ends (chillblains) they get crippled.

Chamber sin thing

 * NOTE: Do NOT use [Cry of Pain] when clearing the chamber. This is a rookie mistake; CoP causes scatter and therefore completely mucks up your entire aggro focus; use degen to kill them. This is why the most popular variant seems to be [Radiation Field].

Are you kidding me? Also -- me/a dont work no more, e/a is fail, a/me for pits is win, death charge is needed for pits. necros are fail. a/d vale and monk is win. 98.231.141.167 01:49, 28 December 2008 (EST) Yup i dunno why everyone is so straightforward to use only necros with the A/N in vale...--Dealey 14:46, 1 January 2009 (EST) you can use cry of pain when clearing the chamber, you just have to pull right and they wont loose agro.
 * Wrong. In Chamber, they ALWAYS scatter. That's why you have terras bodyblock for you. The only time you use special pulling is when you draw the Labyrinth monsters up against the wall. -- Shazam The  Snake    [[Image:Shazam_The_Snake.png]]  hissssssssssss 19:11, 2 January 2009 (EST)

Chamber sin is fine as is, and CoP is used throughout the run, just ball up the foes next to a wall (on your right) and they cannot scatter. Spirit of Failure is a must have if you are new to this run but generally Channeling does fine. Also note that A/D and M/N are so much faster at Vale now, should add the builds as variants. 209.212.105.164 01:42, 9 January 2009 (EST)
 * agreed, I'm quite [exp] Chamber and all you do is just hug the right wall, and then do the wall trick, then start killing the Terrorweb Dryders using the ether nightmare -> CoP combo. keep spamming Spirit of Failure on multiple Aatxes / Grasping and you will be fine. ALL you need to remember is to never use Viper's Defence while keeping aggro since they will scatter because they couldn't before because of the wall trick. I've seen multiple Chambers fail because of lack of wall trick. ffs, it's even in the tutorial vids. 80.126.47.201 10:41, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Guys and Girls
If you have any changes to make then MAKE THEM. It's a wiki for gods sake. 99.243.64.81 23:45, 29 December 2008 (EST)

Chamber Sin Incorrect..?
So i was using this exact build on my first attempt at a speed clear, i ran up and aggroed like i was suppost to, but i got surrounded (body blocked) but i was like, well it wont be TOO bad it'll just be a little slower without my teams help...so i get the aggro all around me and everyone in my team starts saying: the only important one of those is the last one. Is this build SUPPOST to have that in, making the wiki wrong, or was my team just full of noobs and it was a bad first experience with the build? and if it is suppost to be in, what am i suppost to take out? i've heard Spirit of Failure, but i find spirit of failure really helps me... any thing helpful helps (duh :P) DeathByAnArrow 13:33, 1 January 2009 (EST)
 * OMG NOOB
 * WTF FAIL HAX
 * ZOMG -quit-
 * Why don't you have death's charge or vipers defense?!?!
 * Watch any of the 5 instructional Youtube videos for each part and your answer shall be explained. -- Shazam The  Snake    [[Image:Shazam_The_Snake.png]]  hissssssssssss 19:08, 2 January 2009 (EST)

is it just me or
are there only seven on this list, because perma scythe is a replacement for pits terra <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">07:04, 2 January 2009  
 * 7 sins, 1 necro..-- Ikimono <font color ="Teal">I know Paragons. Shut up and listen [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png]] 19:05, 7 January 2009 (EST)

Advice
I've swapped Death's Charge to Viper's Defense in the Chamber Sin build for 2 reasons. 1.Faster Recharge 2.You actually dont need self heal ;p BTW. After the nerf (ele can't do it with SF), I have to say that ~85% of UW SC PuGs are failers. Tried to finish SC for 2 days and all teams I've been in, had leavers etc. Many ppl made Sins only cos of Perma SF and most of them, can't play well as sin/perma ;/ Advice: make sure you're playing with g-m8s or with ppl u know, otherwise, u can just waste your cash/time/patient. BUT, this is just MY Imo... anyway, have fun Kamis
 * i find about 1 in 3 succeeds, and luckily you can tell straight off the bat if someone know what they're doing. but yeah, guildies are always best. pugs usually fail in pve anyway [[Image:Tai_sig_Image_78.png]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">19:09, 2 January 2009 

Updated
All the builds were now changed to the ones I was given on GW by a farming guild. I hope you guys like them! 00:23, 3 January 2009 (EST)


 * IMO, changing of Chamber/Vale sin is stupid -.-. Why did u remove Spirit of Failure?? That skill is the best energy-boost skill for chamber. Also, Death's Charge = Like I wrote yesterday. Vale perma - WTF?! Illusionary Weaponry will hit through SA AND without Chilblains, you will not remove any enches from Souls. ALSO, you didn't even changed it properly. 12 in Shadows? I'd like to see how u can maintain SF Perma with 12pts. Stupid changes. Rolling back Chamber and Vale builds. If you guys agree with me, pls change the builds for terras/edit their att pts correctly. Kamis 08:05, 3 January 2009 (EST)


 * Good changes (am I actually saying this to pvx guy at last?! O_O) but I like to arcane echo cop on lab sin. --Anonimous. 08:10, 3 January 2009 (EST)
 * Yeah tbh most of those changes were wrong [[Image:Tai_sig_Image_78.png]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">08:20, 3 January 2009 
 * Done, rolled back Chmaber/Vale sin. Arcane Echo = some1 else made this change but it's good anyway ;) Btw. Pls, dont mess up all the builds if you don't even know how to edit them properly.--Kamis 08:23, 3 January 2009 (EST)
 * I did that, echo CoP is far better than rad field. trust me, i do it a ton :P [[Image:Tai_sig_Image_78.png]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">08:24, 3 January 2009 
 * Good ;p Done it many times to and I just prefer Radiation ;) Kamis 08:28, 3 January 2009 (EST)
 * TBH I agree with most of the things you guys have said.. I just put up the builds that a farming guild told me. But theres one thing I disagree with.. Get rid of viper's defense for Radiation field. Degen + disease is better than poison IMO, the only use I would see for Viper's defense would be if you get bodyblocked by vengefuls, but even then it wouldn't really help considering how big/many would be on you. What do you think? I also changed the main page to directly link to this page. 15:15, 3 January 2009 (EST)
 * Mainbar Radiation Field and put Viper's as optional. Good players almost always use RF, but Viper's is commonly run on players who are still learning and encounter frequent bodyblock problems. There's no denying that it's a major aid. -- Shazam The  Snake    [[Image:Shazam_The_Snake.png]]  hissssssssssss 16:08, 3 January 2009 (EST)
 * Agree, Radiation Field IS a good skill, BUT if I would get B-Blocked, I wouldn't feel comfortable if I would have to ask for help cos i got B-Blocked by V-Aatxes... My best time as the Chamber was ~13mins. MOST of the UW SC team players can't even finish their work in less than 15mins, so, you actually don't need to be faster than that. Hope you will get my point ;) Kamis 18:50, 3 January 2009 (EST)

Arcane Echo
Wandering eye is much better than echo CoP and heres why. Lets do a 60 second basis. Over 60 seconds, Wandering eye would deal 456 damage to Adjacent targets, and CoP would deal 324 because of the 20 second downtime. Although CoP is in the area, if you are a good perma you should have no problem with adjacent hits. Your thoughts? 14:11, 4 January 2009 (EST)
 * Plus is uses less energies 16:28, 4 January 2009 (EST)
 * U forgot to mention that(btw. essence of celerity=20% HCS/HSR) CoP = 1/4 Activation Time and Wandering Eye = 2sec. CoP recharge - 12sec, Wandering Eye = 10sec + u have to put some pts to Illusion Magic and that means = u have less points to spend on inspiriation magic. So, if u are r9-10 ss, take CoP for bigger dmg, but if u are r6 or less, take Wandering. BUT making 2 slots empty, was a good idea. Player can choose what does he prefer. That's my imo. Oh and - CoP>WE cos of dmg if u are r9-10 ;) --Kamis 04:50, 5 January 2009 (EST)
 * Well with r10 ss you only deal 100 per making it 400 every 60 seconds (not counting the 20% increase because it applies to both skills -> cancels itself out) 99.243.64.81 19:07, 5 January 2009 (EST)
 * Unless i just dont know my facts (which is most likely, if i'm wrong PLEASE correct me :D) but isnt your statement forgetting the whole Echo CoP thing, making CoP 648dmg to Wandering Eye's 456? and as a side note, why note Echo Wandering Eye? if it does actually do more damage than CoP would, wouldn't echoing it be more useful? If attribute points can be re-allocated correctly that could be much more efficiant. DeathByAnArrow 21:22, 5 January 2009 (EST)
 * He's right. Arcane echo CoP is better if you have the energy, does much more damage r6+. Otherwise, just echo wandering eye. 23:03, 5 January 2009 (EST)
 * Thx guys ;p Remember that Wandering Eye has 2secs casting time. TC --Kamis 10:52, 6 January 2009 (EST)

Another pits Sin :O
I recently saw someone running A/Mo for the pits assassin, they were running the following build: [build prof=A/Mo Shadow=12+1+3 Smiting=12 deadly=3][Deadly Paradox][Shadow Form][Death's Ch][Kirin's Wrath][Symbol of Wra][Radiation Field][Castigation Signet]["I Am Unstoppable!"][/build] It worked fine for him, since most/all foes in the pits are undead. Add to variants?  <font color="#0000CC">Ŀ¥ЅЅΔΝ <font color="#0066FF">● <font color="#0099FF">55!  19:01, 6 January 2009 (EST)
 * There are near infinite(exaggeration) variants to the pits build. Adding them all would take up too much space imo.  Life [[Image:Aura of Faith.jpg|19px]] 19:06, 6 January 2009 (EST)
 * Mmkay, whatever then.  <font color="#0000CC">Ŀ¥ЅЅΔΝ <font color="#0066FF">● <font color="#0099FF">55!  19:32, 6 January 2009 (EST)
 * Why not make a link page to all the possible known variations...just using the title of the area, then showing mini skill icons for each of the possible builds.-- Ikimono <font color ="Teal">I know Paragons. Shut up and listen [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png]] 19:21, 7 January 2009 (EST)
 * Dont be silly Scythe is about 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
 * 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times better than this A/Mo. --Anonimous. 15:28, 8 January 2009 (EST)
 * Scythe epic fails.  Life [[Image:Life Guardian-AoF.jpg|19px]] 21:04, 8 January 2009 (EST)
 * Wrong. --Anonimous. 09:25, 9 January 2009 (EST)
 * scythe can just autoattack and do a shitload of damage due to AoHM. --[[Image:Tai_Sig.png]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">09:33, 9 January 2009 
 * Exactly, I wonder how they let Life even post here... --Anonimous. 09:42, 9 January 2009 (EST)
 * Get 10 minutes or under with a scythe, and send me a screen shot. Then i will admit they are decent.  Life [[Image:Life Guardian-AoF.jpg|19px]] 18:54, 9 January 2009 (EST)
 * First things, no point in IAU on that bar, generally when i see Pits with IAU i kick because they obviously suck, secondly, /Mo variant causes massive scatter which just slows you down in the end, not worth it imo.Fawxy Lawxy 06:57, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

necro usage
i do belive in the useage part it is wrong ... it says "Vale: Wait for the Vale sin to ball up the Grapsing Darknesses. Cast SS and follow with "By Ural's Hammer!". Then cast Spirit Rift, Ancestor's Rage and Signet of Corruption." but in the ss build there is no "By Ural's Hammer!" ... 71.99.56.118 17:56, 7 January 2009 (EST)
 * fixed [[Image:Tai_sig_Image_78.png]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">17:59, 7 January 2009 
 * Damn, you Tai. You EC'd me. [[Image:Zefirsig.jpg|19px]] God Zefir  17:59, 7 January 2009 (EST)
 * Tbh, BUH! would probably do more damage than AtB.  Life [[Image:Life Guardian-AoF.jpg|19px]] 18:07, 7 January 2009 (EST)
 * What you're actually supposed to have is BUH and AtB, or a combination of similiar moar damaging skills (aka Great Dwarven Weapon)... AtB is better generally speaking because: Way easier to actually get the skill, no faction farming ftw 15:28, 10 January 2009 (EST)

Vale team usage
Fixed them up, made it a little more detailed and easier for new players to use. Cheers 23:25, 11 January 2009 (EST)
 * I don't know exactly what the attribs are for the vale sin, but i know that it needs 7 curses to function properly.  Life [[Image:Life Guardian-AoF.jpg|19px]] 23:10, 20 January 2009 (EST)
 * lol, I just realiesed that, some1 changed attribute points of vale sin >< why? I set them correctly - rotfl. Will do it one more time if I'll find some time Kamis 10:46, 23 January 2009 (EST)
 * Vale sin attributes NEED to be fixed. I don't want more pugs failing vale. I guess ill work on figuring out the attributes.  Life [[Image:Life Guardian-AoF.jpg|19px]] 18:06, 26 January 2009 (EST)
 * As I promised, Vale sin's att pts = fixed. Hf xD -Kamis 05:52, 27 January 2009 (EST)
 * thank you, i get wayyyyyy too many absolute shit vale sins these days. they either suck, d/c, leave, or sometimes all three. --[[Image:Tai_Sig.png]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">07:11, 27 January 2009 
 * Same here xD Saw wayyy to many of em ;p Your welcome -Kamis 08:57, 27 January 2009 (EST)

Mountains
how do you kill the behemoths at the shrine before popping, or dont u have to worry about them?
 * You...use sliver armor? Duh  Life [[Image:Life Guardian-AoF.jpg|19px]] 21:30, 23 January 2009 (EST)
 * You kill the ones closest to the shrine using the normal chain and Finish Him. I believe you only kill the two groups that are closest to the pop, and then you kill the terrors, and then you do the quest. Correct me if I'm wrong ;) 19:21, 25 January 2009 (EST)

i have to say
this guide is pretty fucking detailed. go us. -- <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">14:15, 27 January 2009 
 * And even after all this, pugs still manage to fuck it up. Go figure.  Life [[Image:Life Guardian-AoF.jpg|19px]] 19:09, 27 January 2009 (EST)
 * welcome to PvE --[[Image:Tai_Sig.png]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">14:46, 27 January 2009 

A/E Vale Sin
Recently, I've been seeing a few Vale sins with Stoneflesh Aura and the Sliver combo. It seems to be a lot safer than Chilblains (From what I've seen, it negates ALL of IW's damage), less stressful on energy, no reduction in speed, and lets you use the Sliver combo which is faster than using daggers for killing other stuff. It also means you could help out the rest of the team if need be. It also allows the Necro to bring other skills, or even be swapped out altogether (I've been seeing a Mo/Rt variant that works well with RoJ, Patient Spirit, Spirit Rift, Rebirth, and four other skills I couldn't catch.) So, is it because not many people know about it that people don't use that variant? Is it because the A/N variant is mainbarred on here? Or is there something else I'm missing? Sora267 00:10, 28 January 2009 (EST)
 * You are correct Sora. The reason no one uses anything else is because only the a/n is here. However, vale is the only area this applies to. In the other areas, the builds that should be run are listed, and most variants suck. The A/E vale works very well. The only problem is that spirits get gangraped because of lack of chibs.  Life [[Image:Life Guardian-AoF.jpg|19px]] 00:45, 28 January 2009 (EST)
 * With a fast Necro or Monk the spirits will never get gangraped, as they will die really quickly. I find A/E + N/Rt works the best (the necro not using chilblains but more damage instead), and A/N + Mo/Me. My best time including escort was 12 minutes running A/N with a Mo/Me. I've never ran with a Mo/Rt so I wouldn't know how they would do, but I would imagine arcane echo + roj is more powerful than spirit rifting. 15:54, 15 February 2009 (EST)

Plains
Why Feigned Neutrality over deaths charge? Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 10:32, 28 January 2009 (EST)
 * Plains is a utility position. Since it doesn't really need much to be successful, it's best to make it a back-up for mnts. Basically, if mnts(or any area really) fails, plains has the perfect build to make up for it.  Life [[Image:Life Guardian-AoF.jpg|19px]] 00:31, 29 January 2009 (EST)
 * I was gonna do plains cause it was simple, but I need to be capable of doing other ppls jobs too. /Sigh. Well, atleast they can guide me if the fail... Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 07:30, 29 January 2009 (EST)
 * it's not necessary to back other areas up, but it is recommended for a higher success rate.  Life [[Image:Life Guardian-AoF.jpg|19px]] 13:01, 29 January 2009 (EST)
 * What rank of Deldrimor, Ebon Vanguard and Norn title tracks is minimal? Or are you supposed to be one of those no-liver's with all R10? Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 16:34, 29 January 2009 (EST)
 * i have r2 ebon (havent farmed on bit for it, just did enough to get EBSoH), r1 Norn, and r1 delver (I don't even use BUH! tho, i use intensity because i cba to get BUH, and i'm SS r2), and i do fine :) it's just a tiny bit slow is all. --[[Image:Tai_Sig.png]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">18:50, 29 January 2009 
 * Once again, a certain rank in anything isn't necessary. However, hitting certain breakpoints will definitely speed up your area.  Life [[Image:Life Guardian-AoF.jpg|19px]] 18:59, 29 January 2009 (EST)
 * I'm R5 agent, r4 delver and r4 norn. So im better then Tai, at any rate... Ok now I know every thing there is to know about a plains sin, I might actually playing it. Any suggestions on the weapons? I have a 20% ench +20 e staff, a 15^ench, 20% ench zealous daggers, and +5 e, zealous, something scythe. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 02:38, 30 January 2009 (EST)
 * That will be fine. and no, you're not better than me, yet :P Scythe should have +20 enchants. you don't really need the daggers, and your staff will be fine. --[[Image:Tai_Sig.png]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">05:28, 30 January 2009 
 * What's up with the shields with the + extra armor? Like my sin hasn't got enough stuff yet... Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 15:24, 30 January 2009 (EST)
 * Shields are for the different things that can go through SF. For example, shock is lightning damage, zealot's fire is fire damage, and barbed trap is piercing damage.  Life [[Image:Life Guardian-AoF.jpg|19px]] 20:34, 30 January 2009 (EST)
 * Ok, I understand that. But than you should add +10 vs piercing on anything that might make contact with the traps. I also think you should note that a + 20 energy staff is really usefull, as well as a load of shields, and weapon like a totem axe, to go along with those shields. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 05:27, 31 January 2009 (EST)

The mountains needs updating. It says use deaths charge to jump to a terror web, but the build features no deaths charge but Feigned Neutrality. I have no experience in the mountains, so I am not really the right person to do it. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 13:47, 1 February 2009 (EST)
 * done --[[Image:Tai_Sig.png]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">13:55, 1 February 2009 
 * Feigned is much more useful than death's charge in mtns, and sometimes I even swap feigned for shadow refuge, but NEVER deaths charge. There is no need, as the majority of mtns is done standing in place. 15:51, 15 February 2009 (EST)
 * Whats a good time to finish plains? I keep getting around 13 min. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 10:32, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Hey, whatsup? why when i'm doing 4th in plains, rarely i cant keep SF because it is recharging... is that Signet of Humility by Horsemans? and what should i do when i doing plains? Ninja Of The Space 11:35, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
 * yes it is Hum and just cast it as soon as it recharges. <font color="Orange">Fox007  [[Image:User Fox007 sig.png|User:Fox007]] 15:31, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I put a nice note about this on the page, not too long ago. It should answer all questions. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 18:39, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Two quick things
I would've fixed this myself but there doesn't seem to be an edit function. Somebody switched Escort of Souls and Restoring Grenth's Monuments in the RoJ use section. Obviously if somebody takes Escort right after the reaper pops... well, yeah. Second thing, it might be worth mentioning that Mantra Resolve can be used to kill the Mindblades if your vale partner is so inclined. They do drop ecto, after all. -Anon- 75.189.132.253 00:40, 16 February 2009 (EST)
 * Thanks for pointing this out. The reason you can't edit this page is because, unlike you, the majority of anons were trying to vandalize this page. Because of this, it was protected from editing from anonymous users. If you create and account, you will be able to change things here.  Life [[Image:Life Guardian-AoF.jpg|19px]] 01:32, 16 February 2009 (EST)

Sorry I'm new here, and I don't know how to make my own question title, so please bear with me :P. When I run the plains I can easily clear it, and pretty fast if I do say so myself. I have lately been having problems with the four horseman quest.. It seems that now when I fight them they use signet of humility on me and my shadow form is disabled, which results in my death. Could anyone tell me what could be causing this, and possibly how to fix it? 24.215.38.203 22:36, 18 February 2009 (EST) Qarl D (my ign)
 * The easiest way to avoid this is to precast Deadly Paradox slightly before SF recharges, and then cast SF as soon as it is recharged. Don't try to squeeze in glyph, or sliver when SF is almost recharged, or your SF will be hit by SoH.  Life [[Image:Image-Life Guardian-LOD Avvie.gif|19px]] 23:13, 18 February 2009 (EST)

Under The Vale Sin setion, it says that once the reaper has popped, the Necro should take the escort quest... is that right?? 81.107.126.211 18:00, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, as quickly as possible. --[[Image:Tai_Sig.png]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">18:01, 22 February 2009 
 * That's wrong. The Necro or RoJ should be taking Restoring Grenth's Monuments, NOT Escort of Souls. 96.253.84.208 00:07, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, my bad. let me fix --[[Image:Tai_Sig.png]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">00:18, 27 February 2009 

Tierd of Noob RoJS!
Im tired of all noob RoJs who make me pay cons.. How hard can it be? heres 1 that is Really good:)aataxe in 25s... grasps and coldfire in the first 2 RoJs

Usage
Take the standard build. change AoS for mindbender. at aataxe Cast mindbender- Auspicious Incantation- arcane echo- RoJ- fast cast "by urals hammer" before Roj has begun dealing Damage- RoJ2. Then wait cast mindbender agen RoJ- RoJ2. At grasping and coldfires do as Before: Cast mindbender- Auspicious Incantation- arcane echo- RoJ- fast cast "by urals hammer" before Roj has begun dealing Damage- RoJ2. They shuld die in 1 go

There you go.. aataxes in like 25 sec and not in a minute like some RoJs:P

heres code OwUUMum6YIRrliOLB+MpiriNgyEA

Counters
lack of energy while doing wratful. Do like this use Auspicious Incantation then The echoed RoJ befor The normal RoJ and a crappy Valesin:)

/miss choole best RoJ in the world:)

Signing your comments
Please learn to sign your comments with ~ 00:10, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Continuing a conversation, use a ":" not == == . And i doubt an annon will ever read your comment. -- Ikimono <font color ="Teal">Needs more Paragon [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png|24px]] 00:59, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

TOC on the vale sin
Why is the TOC for the vale sin section not in the main TOC but rather in its own bit? -- <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">22:58, 28 February 2009 
 * Someone didn't close the pvxbig tag. Fixed now. [[Image:ToraenSig1.jpg]]  Toraen  Dirt to da face!  23:01, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * ah ty tor :) --[[Image:Tai_Sig.png]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">23:01, 28 February 2009 

Another Pits Varient?
[build prof=Assassin/Mesmer shadowarts=12+1+3 inspirationmagic=12 deadlyarts=3][Deadly Paradox][Shadow Form][Channeling][Spirit of Failure][Arcane Echo][Light of Deldrimor][Radiation Field][Deaths Charge][/build]

I actually think this one should be added to varients because it is quite good =)-- SpikePlup   Talk to me!  00:57, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * can that even do the run to pits? --[[Image:Tai_Sig.png]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">00:59, 1 March 2009 
 * Tai, you fail. Also, using ether nightmare+cry of pain is actually better than echo LoD.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 01:06, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Not in pits. Also, if you get hit by a charged with that, you're raped. That's what I meant. --[[Image:Tai_Sig.png]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">01:08, 1 March 2009 
 * Not really. It's not that hard to outrun 3 charged with deaths+lightning shield. A/Me is currenly the fastest pits. The problem is that you actually need to know what you're doing to run it(pulling etc), so putting it up there isn't the best idea.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 01:14, 1 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah I'm pretty sure that it can, but if not, just get rid of Deaths Charge, yes a little long of the actual run there, but definately a shorter run over all(hypothetically)--[[Image:SpikePlup.jpg‎|19px]] SpikePlup   Talk to me!  01:14, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Thing is, there are just so many pits variants that work --[[Image:Tai_Sig.png]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">01:16, 1 March 2009 
 * Eh, only ones that should ever be used are a/e, a/me, and a/d.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 01:19, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * work =/= work well always --[[Image:Tai_Sig.png]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">01:22, 1 March 2009 
 * Updated to reflect a/me and a few other things that I noticed.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 01:48, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

A/Me variant
Stop changing the variant, it should be what is posted above, not the chamber bar.-- SpikePlup   Talk to me!  18:56, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

omg
The first decent group I was in today, and then something really weard happened. The spirits in the pits didn't spawn. We completed the quest execpt the pits one. We had to leave cause we couldn't complete the pits. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 19:43, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Better Monk ROJ Build
[build prof=Mo/Me name="RoJ " ins=8 hea=10+1 smi=12+1+3 div=2][Auspicious Incantation][Arcane Echo][Ray of Judgment]["By Ural's Hammer!"][Great Dwarf Weapon][Ebon Battle Standard of Wisdom][Mantra of Resolve][Resurrection Chant][/build]

What do we see as meta?
I know PvX is supossed to be elitist. But I think the meta is different from what whats on this page. In the time I've been doing UWSC with PUG's (Yes, I know, but not every1 has a UWSC guild), I have seen some major differences. I'll give some examples. The Pools perma is supposed to have Deaths Charge. I havent run in to one who uses that. It will get you raped by the shock and whirlwind of the charged blacknesses. Most use Feigned Neutrality, or after the buff, Shadow Refuge. And I rarely see Radiation Field. Most just use "BUH!". Same goes for the Wastes perma. No Radiation Field, but Feigned Neutrality. I have never seen a Vale Sin who uses the Earth magick. All just use the Chillblains build.

So my question is the following: What is Meta? Is it the builds that a few elite players run (because it is the fastest), or is it just what most of us use (because you can make a nice buck by doing it in 30 min)?

Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 18:25, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
 * All those skills make your team full of noobs. Feigned in pools means they're farming, and refuge means they're stupid. Rad Field makes killing dryders so much faster and safer that it's surpising. Sure, wastes can bring feigned, but anyone who's done it more than 3 times doesn't need it, and rad speeds up killing coldfires and dryders. Deaths charge is there because it's quick, and helps lose agro of charged when running to the monument. Anyone who can't kill 2-3 charged with 6 dryders agroed on them without feigned should /uninstall.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 19:31, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Not the answer I was hoping for, but its an answer. Ok, I can live with it. I can't finish Pools without Feigned, and I'm not farming, just killing all the charged. Perhaps thats the problem. Guess its my enviroment that forces me to do run this kind of shit. QQ Ah well, thank you for the answer. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 19:39, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, let's put it this way. All those skills are reasonable, just unnecessary. Oh, btw, there's a better way to do pools than killing all the charged(killing charged is considered farming). While running in to the pools area(where the tar is) there is a group of dryders standing on an island, or around it. Deaths Charge to one of those. Hug the left wall and run straight for the place where queen will later spawn, and deaths charge to a dryder in that little area. Next part varies widely, because it can be done a few different ways. Basically just make your way past charged patrols without agroing them. The group of 2-3 right outside monument entrance can be agroed. A +10 vs lightning shield helps a lot.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 19:48, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, didn't know that about Pools. BTW the charged drop utter shit, so I wouldnt call it farming. And I got a +10 armor vs Lightning shield. Any suggesstions about the second mod? Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 20:22, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Charged can drop ecto, so it is farming. Best would be +45hp while enchanted.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 20:52, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Possibly a non-fail idea!!!! :O
Replace By urals hammer on mnts for ebon vanguard sniper support? just thought it might make it easier if u ahve a high enough rank for an auto kill Whip  lash  513  02:58, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It wouldnt be an auto kill, because the damage is piercing. You'd also have to wait for the 10% chance, which would take a while.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 03:07, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Energy says hi. 20:24, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

What is
the easiest build to use here? It looks profitable and is popular, but there isnt really a place i can practice and afraid i may well ruin a run :/ ty for feedback |  <font color='blue'>Neo <font color='orange'>Bro  18:23, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Get some cons, get a chamber for a farming run, and try. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 20:44, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Or just go as the necro. If you can't understand "walk backwards until point b" then you need to uninstall. 128.255.216.144 21:19, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) Vale Damage (Monk or Necro) 2) Chambers sin 3) Vale Sin 4) Wastes... The rest you shouldn't start off with ;) 20:47, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Plains is loleasy imo, as long as you don't have to do any other areas. That's the only hard part. It's funny that so many valesins suck, too, since it's so easy --[[Image:Tai_Sig.png]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">20:48, 16 March 2009 

fucking edit conflict tai :/. wastes is easiert, necro is second easiest [wastes requires zero skill at all, zero.] vale sin is hardeer than plains and pits combined. pits+plains both incredibly easy. vale sin actualy has to hold agggro, meaning it requires thought and isnt jut mindless skill chaining. start as pits or wastes tbh, i started as pits Unreal 20:51, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Hard thing about pits is watching the stupid bone horrors. I started as chamber, and the only thing hard in that is getting aggro right to do it really fast. Never tried wastes, i should get around to that one of these days --[[Image:Tai_Sig.png]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">20:53, 16 March 2009 

Ty all for replying, the wastes does look preety easy to me. Not much experience with perma scythe. Also I could do nec but its hard to find a team. 88.106.58.253 21:37, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Btw you may want to consider archiving. 88.106.58.253 21:37, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * teams aren't hard to find gogo ToA American District. <font color="Orange">Fox007 

11:11, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I actually started off with pits (mainly for the fact that i didnt have to go through the trouble of getting BUH :p) and I find it quite easy. Its simple to learn with the scythe build and is a good place to start imo.

Video Walkthrough for Wastes Perma
I found this video on youtube that is pre-nerf, but still show's how to use the build and what to do. It's in two-parts, but also in HD. part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV280Jywbh8&feature=related   part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlfaGe5AAqA   If the person who edits the build page wants to put these in, here they are. If not, it's here in discussion.

-Slick05_1 02:00, 17 March 2009 (CST)