User talk:Choytw/Annoying

nr 3 is most often used when the other person in the debate is a retard that gets a hard cock from discussing. You can't keep discussing to people like that. Also, your points about abortion are so short sighted I can't even start to explain how wrong you are.  — şąɀɀƴ  ƿooɧ  15:12, 20 August 2008 (EDT)


 * Possibly, but that's not irritating. What is irritating is when the other individual has had every argument satisfactorily answered, but they keep reverting to, "but it's not right" or something along those lines.  As for abortion, I think the only points I made were that life has been agreed upon to start at conception (self replicating cells) so the debate lies in discussing when a baby/adult (euthanasia) obtains/loses the right to life.  The other parts, if I remember correctly, were simply irritations with other individual's short-sighted arguments  lol  I'm more than happy to discuss with you   € ╠╣ Ω¥†\╩/ ∞  [ ÞΩ┌┐Ð ]   19:51, 20 August 2008 (EDT)

This thing has two talk-pages. Also, wtf do you mean with #5? Is it like "Hey man, can I have a pencil, I forgot one today" and you go "AAAH YOU'RE ANNOYING ME GO AWAY" ?  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ  20:16, 20 August 2008 (EDT)


 * Well, I'm trying to get something to work, hence the other page. As for #5, no.  A perfect example would be someone in GW coming up and saying, let me have those ectos, I need them to get my gloves.  Or, if you have 3 saurian scythes, and a dude comes up and tells you to give it to him because you have 3, "you don't need all three, I don't have one so let me have it" -- that's what I'm talking about.  Someone thinking they have a right to your possessions simply because they want it  € ╠╣ Ω¥†\╩/ ∞  [ ÞΩ┌┐Ð ]   20:19, 20 August 2008 (EDT)
 * I see. Well, depending on the person and the object, I'd rather share...  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 20:20, 20 August 2008 (EDT)


 * It isn't a question of sharing. Most things I have I would let someone else have if they had the need and simply asked.  So the problem isn't the asking, but the attitude.  € ╠╣ Ω¥†\╩/ ∞  [ ÞΩ┌┐Ð ]   20:29, 20 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Yeah I get it. It's the people that go "HEY, GIMME DAT!" as opposed to "Uhm, pardon me, I lost my head the other day and it's of very mugh importance that I have a head, so seeing you have two I thought you might maybe lend me one of your heads, if it's not too much of a hassle. Otherwise I'll try find some other two-headed person" :3  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 20:40, 20 August 2008 (EDT)
 * lmao here I am trying to be serious and I've got this dopey grin on my face  ;-)   € ╠╣ Ω¥†\╩/ ∞  [ ÞΩ┌┐Ð ]   20:41, 20 August 2008 (EDT)

About the abortion; the foetus (or whatever it is when it can still be aborted) is still part of the mother, rather han an individual human-being. Therefor it's (to me) more logical that the mother can decide what to do with it. On the other hand, you should face your responsabilities.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ  20:51, 20 August 2008 (EDT)
 * My only issue is that it is life (and I believe all things alive with a potential future have a right to life - key being a future of potential) and as a result, barring serious health issues with the mother, should not be snuffed out - imo only of course. € ╠╣ Ω¥†\╩/ ∞  [ ÞΩ┌┐Ð ]   20:54, 20 August 2008 (EDT)

I don't think it's been agreed upon that life starts at conception. Not for me anyway. You even said most people are divided on that subject, so who cares what some doctor says? "I think therefor I am", not "I'm self replicating cells, therefor I am". Adult euthanasia is some other thing I don't agree on. If you want to kill yourself, why the fuck not? It's your life. Your decision. What's the use of living on in pain and being all miserable. But back to abortion. You're looking at this way too black and white. Life does not work this way, nor is it that easy. What if someone rapes you? What if you get pregnant? Still want to have the child of your rapist? I'm not saying you should wait multiple months to abort, but in the end it's still your own choice and a woman should be able to make it if she wants to. How about you try looking at it in the woman's way? It's obviously not you who has to bare the child. Tbh, I rather shove a hanger up my uterus than carry the rapists child. Though that's not all. We all know by now condoms aren't fail-safe. I don't think a woman who got pregnant unwillingly should remain that way. What if you get pregnant at age 15? Stuff like that destroys your life. You seem to be only considering the child's life, who, tbh, doesn't even have a clue that it's alive nor give a fuck. Anyway there's more but I'm tired of typing so I'll get back with you on that after you reply.  — şąɀɀƴ  ƿooɧ  21:09, 20 August 2008 (EDT)


 * The processes that denote life are all present at conception - self replicating cells developing into a higher, more organized organism - so yes, it is alive. The phrase, "I think therefor I am" does not apply to plankton.  They do not have higher brain functions (the smallest plankton have the same life functions as a zygote), but are classified as alive.  Adult euthanasia is a different subject - one is good enough for me right now  lol.  Rape is a very rare exception, and since it doesn't constitute the majority, can be talked about if we come to an agreement (since first you have to decide if the baby even has a right to life).  As far as, "you're a man and don't have to carry the baby so have no say", first, there are women who are pro-life.  If there were none, then you'd have a point, if a bad one.  In other words, my being male does not mean I can't make the same arguments that a woman would make.  Another view, does my loved one have to be murdered in order to be on a jury to decide the fate of a murderer?  Or, do I have to be able to go through something before I can talk about the morality of the subject?  As for condoms not being fail safe, that is a risk one takes when having sex just like risking the chance of contracting HIV.  If the baby does have a right to life, then you forfeited your right to an abortion when you willingly participated in an act which you know could have dire consequences.  "you seem to be only considering the child's life"...no, I'm weighing a life with someone's comfort/desires.  If someone ruins my life (frames me for embezzlement) does that give me the right to end their life?  Of course not.  When you weigh wants of convenience against another's life, that life always takes precedence.  € ╠╣ Ω¥†\╩/ ∞  [ ÞΩ┌┐Ð ]   21:24, 20 August 2008 (EDT)
 * I cldn't care less if plankton thinks or not as it's not growing inside of me. I don't exactly see you saying "ohnoes I killed a plankton" either, tbh. There's a difference between "living" and "living". A plant is technically alive too though I do not think of it as living. I couldn't care less about stepping on a flower. Does that make me a bad person for killing a flower? Imho, this "child" that grows, still withing normal abortion ranges, is not much more than a flower. If I want to pick the flower, that should be my own choice. What gives you the right to say I'm wrong? And though you call rape an exception, does that suddenly make it okay to "end a life", just because you find the mere idea of the rapist's child inside of you? Of course there's always a risk when having sex. Maybe I shouldn't ride my bike anymore. I might just fall and hurt my knee. You got like 2 kids right? How many times have you had sex? 2 times (depending how fertile you two are >.> )? No fucking way! If you could cure HIV, wouldn't you do it? Also, what good is it to have the child you don't want and then give it a shitty youth. Is it really worth living, having to grow up with dozens of trauma's etc? If someone frames you, it does give you the right to prove he's framing you and put him into jail yourself, therefor ruining his life instead of him ruining yours.  — şąɀɀƴ  ƿooɧ [[Image:PinkNautical.jpg]] 22:29, 20 August 2008 (EDT)
 * My point was that it is alive. Once you agree on that, then you have to decide if he/she has a right to life (and that is what I said has a lot of people debating still - not if he/she is alive in the first place).  A plant isn't human - by that I mean it is perfectly acceptable to hunt animals and they are alive in the sense you're referring to when you say "living" and "living".  And what granted me the right is my understanding of morality which I'm trying to convince you of.  I think you misunderstood me on rape.  I'm not saying it's right or wrong to kill a baby which is the result of rape.  What I am saying is that you first have to decide if any baby is alive and at what point.  Then you have to decide at which point he/she obtains a right to life.  Then, after these two criteria are set, you can decide on the particular nuances of conception.  Riding your bike doesn't create life - that is the difference.  I have three girls and have had sex a lot.  We are done having children, but if we were to become pregnant, we'd carry the child to term and keep him/her.  Again, while I would cure HIV, the virus is not a human life (which I think you were alluding to, if you would cure HIV which is the result of sex, why not a baby?), which again makes it a special case.  A perceived difficult life is not a reason, in and of itself, to have an abortion.  Every child can and does go through trauma.  You missed the point with my example.  You were arguing that one valid reason to have an abortion is because having a baby at 15 can ruin one's life.  My rebuttal, broken down further, was: killing someone who is going to frame you, i.e. ruin your life, is not justified.  The difference being killing vs the framer going to jail   € ╠╣ Ω¥†\╩/ ∞  [ ÞΩ┌┐Ð ]   22:59, 20 August 2008 (EDT)
 * It "is" alive, to a certain extend. To me, it's not alive enough to actually call it that. What makes you decide that human life is more important than the life of an animal or a plant? That's just as much "playing god" as it is to end the life of your unborn child. You can't make up rules like that. These ideals only work in your own perfect world. Your understanding of morality is the one you think is right. That doesn't mean it actually is right. And ask your wife if she'd keep a baby which is the result of rape, tbh. Riding my bike is also an example that is alike to the ones you are giving imho. What if I break my back and can never walk again while riding my bike? What if you suddenly can't support a 4th child and your wife becomes pregnant? Do you seriously want to keep it if it means that you won't be able to feed everyone anymore so you all start starving? Or would you just stop having sex? (yeah right I would like to see that) You can't compare killing someone who's framing you though. That person has a conscience. The baby does not. Also, I rather spare my child if I know its life is going to be even more fucked up than normal human life already is. Like, what if they have down syndrome? It's not like I wouldn't want to take care of it, I just wouldn't want it to have to suffer like that. And last but not least, even if the 15yo girl "steps up and takes responsibility" (as you like to call it), I do not feel in any way that this girl is able to take care of this child. Letting special organisations take these kids away because of that, or when a parent abuses the child or whatever, is an even more fucked up reason than actually having an abortion.  — şąɀɀƴ  ƿooɧ [[Image:PinkNautical.jpg]] 23:54, 20 August 2008 (EDT)
 * No, lol it is alive period - based on scientific classification. So you believe that killing an animal is just as horrific as killing a person?  Come on now lol.  We have laws against killing humans unlike non-endangered and in season animals.  Everyone thinks their version of morality is right - which is why discussions result to try to come to an agreement on who is indeed correct.  My wife would keep any baby no matter the cause - as do a lot of rape victims.  Now it's my turn to pull the black and white card.  There are options available to people in trouble.  To name a few, adoption, wellfare, family, increased tax returns (I believe it's something like $1,500 for each child) etc.  No, they are not alike.  Riding a bike is taking your own life into your hands, while participating in sex, knowing you'll have an abortion, is taking someone else's life in your hands.  As for killing the framer vs the example of a fetus, both are alive and human.  If the zygote is allowed to follow its natural course, it will develop a consciousness well before birth and be considered the same as the framer, with the only difference being the baby is innocent while the framer is not.  Down syndrome babies can be happy as well - one of my first girl friends had a brother who had downs syndrome and he was happier than most 'normal' kids I knew.  Also, downs syndrome has been misdiagnosed before, along with spinal biffida and so on (the ones diagnosed from amniotic tests).  I have never met anyone who was not mentally unbalanced or in the middle of a crisis (hence before and after the crisis they would want to live) in which they wished their parents had killed them.  What makes you think that a child would rather die than be put into a foster home?  At what point do you think ending a life becomes wrong?  Only after birth or sometime before?  € ╠╣ Ω¥†\╩/ ∞  [ ÞΩ┌┐Ð ]   15:09, 21 August 2008 (EDT)
 * We're not discussing what scientists think. We're discussing whether or not abortion is really that bad. I already pointed out that I feel like it's alive the same way as a flower is. So because a law that humans made says it's illegal to kill humans but legal to kill animals it's all ok? HELL NO! I'll just start my new world order, the sazzes. In my country the law is that killing humans is ok but killing animals is bad. (just to point out how rediculous that thought pattern is). Of course I think it's worse to kill a human than to kill an animal. But that's not the point at all. If you really think it's so wrong to kill something living, you should also think it's wrong to kill your dog. Apparently you're quite fine with that. It's only just an animal, right? That's a bit hypocrite tbh. As for your wife keeping the baby... No offense, but I feel like that's just stupid. And I wonder if she would keep that opinion after actually being raped. I lol'd at your options though. "increased tax returns". I can imagine it now: "oh sweet i got raped. Hope i'm pregnant so I can get some tax returns." Just... NO! Sane people do not think like that. Putting your child on your family's shoulders is a horribly thing to do. A close friend of mine has been there, done that. It's horrible. What if I run someone over with my bike? What if they die? (actually happened to a friend of mine 2 years ago). It's not like he stopped riding his bike after. When you're on the road it's not only your own life you have into your hands but everyone's life that is on the road. They're really more alike than you're willing to admit. Though the zygote may get a conscience one day, we're not talking about that. It doesn't have a conscience at the time of the abortion. It doesn't seem impossible to me that some day cows will evolve into smarter beings etc. Does that make you stop eatign that steak now? Of course not! You do seem to be thinking I feel like it's okay to have an abortion at like 8 months or whatever. When people want an abortion, they will not wait THAT long and the zygote will die before it even remotely has a conscience. Downs syndrome.. I personally would not want my child going through that. Never being able to be normal, never being able to fit in. It's not like life isn't hard enough as it is. They're pretty much fucked. GL getting a job etc. And like I pointed out before, we're obviously not talking about last minute abortions. When you find out you're pregnant and you don't want it, you'll do it right away, resulting in killing it off before it actually has a conscience. You're not gonna wait 3 freaking months to think it over. Either you want it or you don't want it. It's just a pile of cells growing inside of you at that point anyway.  —  şąɀɀƴ  ƿooɧ [[Image:PinkNautical.jpg]] 16:12, 21 August 2008 (EDT)
 * No, we were talking about whether or not the fetus, at conception, is alive. You get me wrong, killing to kill is always wrong.  Killing for food, is perfectly ok.  We both feel the same.  We both believe that the fetus, no matter how young, has a right to life.  Also, the baby has done nothing wrong, the rapist has yet you would kill it for the actions of another.  Now you're misconstruing what I said.  I don't think a raped woman would be happy for the tax break - but the situation that you gave, a poverty stricken family would.  In the case of your friend with a bike, either the pedestrian was wrong, i.e. took his own life by walking into a street without looking, or your friend was to blame, i.e. looking at a hot chick and didn't see the dude in front of him.  Either way, the situation does not apply because the baby has done nothing - made no choices - but the mother/father has.  Because cows can not now achieve consciousness while a baby will.  When do you believe is too late to have an abortion (health crisis aside)?  Downs Syndrome - being normal is over rated.  If you love them, they'll be happy - again, possibly happier than the 'normal' person simply because they have less cares.  Ever heard of Mcdonalds? (jobs)  And who the hell is happy having a job?  lol  Most women don't find out they're pregnant for a few weeks (next period missed).  I'll stop there and ask instead, when is the latest you think an abortion is a good choice?  € ╠╣ Ω¥†\╩/ ∞  [ ÞΩ┌┐Ð ]   16:26, 21 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Sigh. I explained it many times before. At conception it's not more alive than a flower. Such a low standard of living is not life to me. Killing for food is ok? So stealing bread cause you have no money to buy food is ok if it meant you would die if you didn't? What would you do if someone told you tomorrow you're only here cause someone raped your mom? I would personally rather die than keep on living, knowing that that was the way I came into this world. Lol, you make that family sound like child collectors. "ohai, we need money, so if you got a kid we'll take one." People should not have kids for any other motivations than loving it. Having one because you'll get a tax refund, makes you a horrible human being. And you know, accidents due happen even if both parties aren't to blame. Meaning, even if you're both careful on the street, stuff can still happen. In this case it does apply, cause neither the person on the bike nor the pedestrian has done something wrong. And lol, so cause cows aren't smart in the immediate future, it's ok to eat them? So it's ok if a caveman eats its baby? I don't know about your country, but in MY country, retards don't work at McDo. Only people that generally fail at life. Lol, I hope you get fired tomorrow and tell me again when you come home that it's no fun having a job. I've never been happier to get my internship, tbh. You also don't have a conscious child inside of you after a few weeks. It doesn't even look like its human then. When is the latest? 35 days, 4 hours, 28 minutes and 42 seconds. How am I supposed to answer something like that? Just at reasonable time. It's not like you'll only find out after 5 months that you're pregnant. I can't put a specific time on that, but as soon as you find out that you're pregnant without willing to be, you go get an abortion.  — şąɀɀƴ  ƿooɧ [[Image:PinkNautical.jpg]] 16:55, 21 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Does a flower have DNA which will allow it to have a consciousness? Killing an animal for food is ok.  We can not live on vegetables alone.  No, stealing is always wrong - you always have a choice in every situation, and by that I mean there is always a way out if you'll simply not take the easy way out.  I would be glad that my mother valued life enough not to kill me.  I've brought great joy to her and have children of my own.  If she had have killed me, she would have been responsible for any other life that would have been a result of mine.  Quit twisting what I'm saying, seriously.  I'm not saying people should have babies in order to get more money - what I am saying is that the government has provided a way to help families with multiple kids to deal with poverty.  Someone is always at fault - always.  Either you were careless and shot out between vehicles or the driver of the car was not paying attention.  No matter the cause, someone is always at fault.  No, because cows aren't human and we need meat to survive it is ok - I really can't believe we're having this conversation (this particular part).  Mentally challenged people do work at McDonalds in the US.  Are you serious about the job thing?  Do you not realize there's a difference between putting food on the table for your family and sincerely enjoying having a job?  I'm currently earning my degree for programming, at which point I will enjoy what I do, but not in my current job.  Again, are you so short-sighted to not think that most people do not enjoy their work or the people they work with (which in turn colors the work experience)?  I'm not saying the baby is conscious - all I'm trying to do is get you to push that envelope back as far as possible.  I currently don't have a non-religious argument for stopping the killing before viability.  Again, what is the earliest, in the event of not being able to get into the doctor or not finding a doctor who would perform, that you would think it is ethical to have an abortion?  € ╠╣ Ω¥†\╩/ ∞  [ ÞΩ┌┐Ð ]   18:57, 21 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Doesn't matter. Flowers don't think, neither does the zygote. Who says you need to eat animals to live? I see you have never heard of vegetarians or even vegans. I kind of find it funny you think stealing is worse than killing an innocent animal. They didn't do anything wrong to you either. "Don't steal this bread, just kill this dog here and eat it instead." In a way, humans are just animals too. That's very nice that you love your mommy and she loves you back. In my case however, that's not really the case. I'm sure she has wondered about having aborted me. I can't blame her either. She doesn't really care about grandchildren either for that matter. I'm not at all twisting what you are saying, merely repeating it. And since you have kids of your own, you probably do realise that the tax refund is peanuts compared to what kids actually cost? Kids basically cost you a full house. With the tax refund, you can hardly buy a house. When I bought one pair of shoes when I was younger, that tax refund was gone. I still had to eat, clothe myself etc. I really don't understand why you can't look any further than your basic examples. What if you're driving a car, get a heart attack and hit someone in the process. You didn't choose to have the heart attack. It also might have been caused by whatever reason you're not responsible for. Can you really blame this driver? Of course I'm serious about the job thing. Maybe I need to be your age to think like you about your job, but I want to enjoy my job and go there with a smile and have fun, like many of my older friends do, for that matter. Doing a job you don't like is silly, cause you will never keep it up. If you can't even enjoy your job... I mean you're there for half the day or more. And you're obviously doing this programming degree so you would enjoy your job and not only go there for the money. Of course there are a lot of ppl that don't enjoy their work, but a big part of that is their own fault tbh. If I drop out of school and then have to clean toilets as a living... Well. My mom quit her job a few years ago because she didn't like it for that matter and just looked for another one. Now she's very happy with what she does. I would advise people that don't enjoy their job to do the same. Since I'm not religious, a religious comment wouldn't help you out much ;o). I also have no clue what you're trying to say with your last sentence tbh, so i'll just answer it with what i think it is: I've also answered the when question multiple times. I'm sorry but I can't make that any more clear for you. I'm also not quite sure what you mean by getting in a doctor or finding a doctor. Doctors here generally aren't pussies and do what you ask of them.  —  şąɀɀƴ  ƿooɧ [[Image:PinkNautical.jpg]] 20:18, 21 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Sorry this is delayed, been very busy since yesterday. The flower, in its current state does not have the future capability to think.  The fetus does in its DNA.  Vegans - of course I've heard of them - and some get sick while still others die.  The body needs protein to survive - something that is hard to find in a vegetable diet without causing other side-effects (like peanuts for example).  Also, not everyone can afford to live the lifestyle of a vegetarian.  Stealing is worse than killing an animal for food.  If you were given the choice between having to choose between a cow dying or a human, which would you choose, and why?  It's sad that you live in that kind of an environment - I hope it gets better for you.  No, you're twisting by saying that my point had people having kids for money - that's not at all what I was saying.  You can't compare the tax refund to renting a house.  Why?  Because having additional children does not mean you have to buy another house...you should already be living in one.  If not, you're homeless and will have your children removed by child protective services.  You bought a $1,500 pair of shoes? j/k I know it was less back then - that's the problem with outlooks, if you needed the money, you shouldn't have bought a pair of expensive shoes.  If you're poor, you might actually have to live like you're poor.  When I was a kid, we had a bought where my dad was out of a job.  We ate pinto beans and cornbread, didn't go anywhere, and didn't buy anything new.  Miserable living, but it allows you to get by until things are going well for you again.  Have you thought perhaps that I work so that I can put myself through school so I can actually do the job I want to?  Where is it you work?  So far, all I've gotten from you (if I'm wrong please let me know) is: At a reasonable time.  Well that is obviously relative and differs between you and me.  So...I'm not looking for a week per se, but more like a description of what state the baby should be in.  € ╠╣ Ω¥†\╩/ ∞  [ ÞΩ┌┐Ð ]   14:41, 22 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Why do you keep repeating the flower thing? You've pointed that out several times before and I replied each and every time with "that doesn't matter, it doesn't think right now". While vegans are extreme, vegetarians are not. You can perfectly live as one without any problems tbh. And srsly, what makes you so much better than animals? If ppl ask me tomorow to kill a dog for food or steal a bread, I'll go steal the fucking bread, thank you very much. Choosing between a cow and a human depends on which human now, doesn't it? There are quite a few situations where I would prefer the cow living over the person. If you look at it objectively, humans are monsters compared to animals. I also don't think I want sympathy on my current home situation tbh. Apparently you really need to reread my text when you're a little more awake. I never ever talked about renting a house. I just pointed out that having a child costs as much as buying a house. Tax refunds are peanuts compared to what kids cost. Again, i'm not twisting your words. You just seem to misread mine. The money we get here for having children each month is hardly enough to buy a pair of shoes. Nobody talked about shoes that expensive nor spending an entire years worth of the tax refund on shoes. Somehow your english seems to be slowly deteriorating every response cause there's bigger and bigger parts of your text each time that either makes no sense or just hast some weird form making it incomprehensible. So I'll just skip that part, again. Also, what the hell has working so you can get your new diploma got to do with anything? I just said if you hate your job you should find a new one. You apparently seem to be doing that, so you're following my advice and therefor agreeing with me. Don't discuss things that you agree on lol. And what does it matter where I work? I don't work at McDo, if that's what you're asking. Since you keep bugging me with the time thing, even though I've explained multiple times that it's not just so easy to put a time span on there, I'll just quote the law from my country this time. First off all, abortion has been completely legal in every way for over 18 years now. It's just up to the woman to decide if she wants it, as long as you're not pregnant for more than 14 weeks. Happy? My point being, if you WANT an abortion, you're going to do it anyway in those 14 weeks. There isn't one person retarded enough to actually ask for an abortion at 30 weeks or whatever. That is also what I mean by a reasonable time and imho is just common logic. Reading between the lines can be a fine thing too.  — şąɀɀƴ  ƿooɧ [[Image:PinkNautical.jpg]] 18:13, 22 August 2008 (EDT)

Non Topic Below

 * [[Image:Dont TLDR.gif]]
 * ~ ĐONT * SYSOP  20:58, 21 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Dont wins the thread talk page. That was beautiful. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 21:38, 21 August 2008 (EDT)

"No, lol it is alive period - based on scientific classification. "
 * Complete pro-totalitarian B.S. There is no scientific discussion on the definition of conception, because conception AS A SCIENTIFIC TERM ONLY REFERS TO THE POINT AT WHICH SPERM FERTILIZES EGG. "Conception" as used in discussing abortion is ONLY used when a pro lifer claims to define it as the point in which life begins.  Thus, any definition you give it is FRICKING CIRCUITOUS.
 * Furthermore: "Despite many claims to the contrary, life does not begin at conception" -Carl Sagan. GFG.

"Does a flower have DNA which will allow it to have a consciousness?"
 * Every one of your sperm has DNA which allows it to have consciousness. Should we save all the sperm in the world?  No! Fucking gross dude.  You're sick.  --Thc 21:39, 21 August 2008 (EDT)


 * You know carl sagan was an astronomer, not a doctor right? In my psychology book, (and my mother's RN books), according to the processes (you have to be able to do something like: gather energy, be of a higher development (i.e. dna and such), make use of energy, react to the environment, and one other thing I believe), a zygote is classified as alive since it meets all of them.  They have the same definition...when the sperm fertilizes the egg...not exactly sure what you were shooting for there.  As for the sperm, it is incomplete DNA.  Also, it is not currently exhibiting all the signs of life - so no, you would not need to bottle up all your sperm and freeze them. And don't call me sick bud, I think you're the one thinking about sperm  ;-)   € ╠╣ Ω¥†\╩/ ∞  [ ÞΩ┌┐Ð ]   14:41, 22 August 2008 (EDT)


 * LOL. You know Carl Sagan is one of the most respected scientists in the world, right?  This isn't even a scientific discussion, Carl Sagan's opinion is respected because he is FRICKING SMART.  how much arrogance do you have to have to hold your opinion over his???!?  This isn't complicated.  You need maybe an IQ of 60 to understand this, lol...  Conception is this: you put the sperm next to the egg, then the sperm goes in.  Nothing magical.  Define it in yuor own little world however you want doesn't meanyou're right or other people agree with you.
 * You're trying to exactly define life.. using an RN book LOL AND applying it to ZYGOTES

the last condition for life is "reproduction" I'm pretty sure zygotes can't reproduce lol. Obviously there are problems with you defining life so rigidly. No you 're right. We should trust a nameless joe on pvxwiki to tell us what is life and isn't :)--Thc 16:26, 22 August 2008 (EDT)
 * reproduction is covered under cell replication (if that is even the last one...can't remember right now). No, no problems.  Even though it is alive, it doesn't affect the abortion argument - you still have people arguing that it doesn't have a right to life which is a whole ball of wax itself.  So this classification doesn't and hasn't changed the legality of it.  € ╠╣ Ω¥†\╩/ ∞  [ ÞΩ┌┐Ð ]   17:35, 22 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Cell replication is reproduction. Otherwise germs aren't 'alive' either.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 18:19, 22 August 2008 (EDT)
 * How about this: if you want to kill your own unborn child, go ahead. Or, would you force your 16 year-old daughter to give birth to a child she doesn't want and will probably end up with a fucked-up life anyway? Either way, who here actually considers abortion to be a form of murder? ــмıкε  нaшк  18:43, 22 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Would that girl's life be any less fucked-up if she does have abortion?  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 18:45, 22 August 2008 (EDT)
 * I meant her child's life. XD In the end, don't have sex if you aren't ready for the responsibility of a child, because shit happens, A LOT. =P ــмıкε  нaшк  18:47, 22 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Lol don't talk bullshit :P Like you're not going to have sex till you actually want a child.  — şąɀɀƴ  ƿooɧ [[Image:PinkNautical.jpg]] 18:48, 22 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Bit too late for that now. But condoms are pretty much 100% safe, if you don't mess up.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 18:49, 22 August 2008 (EDT)
 * The box says 97%. Feeling lucky?  — şąɀɀƴ  ƿooɧ [[Image:PinkNautical.jpg]] 18:52, 22 August 2008 (EDT)

Choytw you have no right to comment on abortion and not one male in this fuckign world does. When you have to go through the pains and stress of childbirth/raising that child then you can start giving your opinion on the matter. Being a christian or w/e the hell you kids are into these days does not make you the expert on retarded opinions so stop trying to prove a point that has no value and go find something good to argue about like light beer or ugly strippers kthnx. WITH LOVE <3 rąʂKƴ ɖooƿɭɘş 19:16, 22 August 2008 (EDT)
 * I'll take my chance. I think every girl I've slept with so far (not that it's been that many :3) was on the pill.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 19:29, 22 August 2008 (EDT)

"reproduction is covered under cell replication"- Choytw ROFL no. I was thinking someone might say that but I was like "lol nah, no one's that stupid=". simply amazing how someone who doesn't have even a basic grasp of biology can claim to define life. This is honestly something you should've learned in like 7th grade biology lol. How old are you lol? --Thc 22:20, 22 August 2008 (EDT)
 * To whit, reproduction is creation of new organism. cell replication is only reproduction in the case of single celled creatures.  --Thc 22:22, 22 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Abortion is an individual right, and obviously, it's the choice of the mother. What about this scenario: a girl gets raped and becomes pregnant; should we give her the right to choose whether she wants to have the child or not? ــмıкε  нaшк  00:50, 23 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Rape babies are bad<3. rąʂKƴ ɖooƿɭɘş[[Image:Mgrinshpon bluebunny.gif|19px]] 01:42, 23 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Infidel coould open a rape-baby eating business. rąʂKƴ ɖooƿɭɘş[[Image:Mgrinshpon bluebunny.gif|19px]] 02:10, 23 August 2008 (EDT)