User talk:Dzjudz/Sandbox/7HPS

Discuss. You can even add the para as a third option for the bottom hero. talk 20:29, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

MM
To mainbar the MM or not? On the one hand minions can fuck up a careful balling process, on the other hand they offer a lot of damage mitigation (enemies not targeting your party, aoe being fired off away from your party, etc.) and with Splinter Weapon and Death Nova can add significant damage. Also, the MM is the only real option to use prots (unless my old Curse Prot comes back, but people didn't seem to like that for some reason). If you get rid of the MM, you also get rid of the prots. How do you deal with this? Do you trust an ST Shelter hero to prot? I don't. You can stick a prot or two on the RoJ monks, but that requires speccing and energy management. I'm still favouring the MM Prot. Thoughts? talk 12:51, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * U cant have both (mm and ST), so u must chose one; if going for mm, u need to micro more (but micro is restricted to ps and maybe soa), if u chose st, u cant have alot of minions, they blow shelter apart, but much less micro is required (since the range of shelter is huge, u can force cast while running to mobs, and shelter will be left behind, safe but active); the problem with st is that heroes are bad users, they dont understand armor of unf, and they blow st recharges on union and displacement; my solution is to only have 2 spirits (discard displacement, u have lots of melee counters, illusion mesmer, weakness from curses, etc) and precast before engaging, u can do it on the move, so its not a real micro; if this is done, the rit will have no problem keeping shelter up in the battle. Also to consider: the bar i use for st uses 15 comuning, 12 spawn and 10 in command, for fall back and SYG, u need +4 comuning and +2 spawning to get this spread, but ur hero will get in xchange insta cast/overlaping skills, wich will have no interference with shelter spamming, and that mitigates a lot on the bad using of the bar heroes tend to do.Ive tried st with other skills, ones that have activation time, but they usually tend to cast those skills instead of a much needed shelter, so i went to para secondary for them. More: energy can become tight, so ull need signet of creation, but they use this signet EVEN if no spirit is around, same happens with armor of unfeeling, they spamm it as if it affected all allied spirits, not the owners spirits; a mm can deal a lot of damage, but they cant compare in party protection to a st, so ull be stranded with a moron protector that requires u to activate his skills; that is okay if ure balling, because ull draw all dmg to u and the individual prots of the mm are enough for the job, (use key binding and pre prot) but against large aoe, st is way better. Its a case of chosing between a much safer party wide protection (ST), ideal for doa and the like, and a more damaging option, with single protection only (general pve).Seth piontek 16:40, 23 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Also, on the careful balling process: if ure carefully balling, a mm is a nuissance, dont use it if ur playing relies a lot on balling, it simply can ruin a run. my two cents. Seth piontek 16:44, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I like MBs still but not with Death Nova. A friend recently showed me a bar which gives you the meatwall with no lag. No prots, so you still use an ST rit.
 * ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 17:46, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I have three main problems with an ST rit.
 * - First, hero AI. They simply do not know how to use Soul Twisting properly with spirits. Many times, one or more spirits will be on recharge because of stupid AI. You can micro of course, but that doesn't fix the other two following problems.
 * - Second, you are wasting a full hero slot on defense. An ST rit hero uses 5 or 6 slots on spirit spamming (Boon of Creation, Soul Twisting, Shelter, Union, Displacement, Signet of Creation) and does not have the energy management to fill the remaining slots with anything but sparingly used support (e.g. Fall Back or SYG). These days, all 7 heroes should be capable of going hybrid in damage/defense or damage/support. The ST rit can't do damage.
 * - Third, using an ST rit means you are sacrificing either a rit or a mesmer (i.e. Razah). It's not simply MM vs ST, because you have to draw the rit from a job you have already filled in (which is either SoGM or Domination). You can't have SoS + 2 Mesmers + Razah as SoGM or Domination if you have to make Razah the ST rit. Then you are still left with the open Necro slot. You can of course fill in the Necro with a RoJ or something, but basically, the equation is: ST vs SoGM or Domination.
 * In conclusion, I don't really think ST rit is the way to go. If you want to remove the MM, I'd suggest not sourcing away a valuable damage source (SoGM/Domination), but instead using something like a RoJ monk with some prots, or something like this:
 * Dzjudz sig.png talk 18:28, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I haven't encountered many problems with the hero AI of the ST Rit. I does a pretty good job overall and you can always micro as you see fit. It's true that you sacrifice an entire hero for defensive purposes only, but it should only be used in appropriate areas anyway. It's overkill for like 90% of all PvE areas. I would like to add that I use a ST/SoGM hybrid which can do both. In reaction to the PoD Prot, I remember a discussion in which it came down to the fact that the build isn't optimal. Heroes should have a main role and, possibly, a minor one for optimal performance. This way you're putting two minor roles on a hero and for the sole purpose of damage prevention =/ Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 18:53, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * ST/SoGM hybrid? How do you fit two elites on one bar? With regards to the PoD prot, I agree that it is far from optimal. I would much rather use the MM prot. However, I'm looking at it from the standpoint of PoD Prot vs ST. In this case, the PoD Prot offers at least some offensive utility and doesn't sacrifice Razah to do so. Dzjudz sig.png talk 23:05, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I was referring to the builds, not the elites. I basically run a SoGM bar, with ST as elite and 1 or 2 defensive spirits which I can micro accordingly. Usually shelter and the other one depends on the area. It works fine because this way your hero can put stuff like Dissonance up frequently and you hardly ever need all 3 defensive spirits in an area. I'm actually having some doubts about the MM hero atm. Isn't the MM like the weakest hero of the bunch? The MM hero is terribly slow, spirits fulfill the same role to a certain degree (maybe even better) and it has bad synergy with the ST rit. Why not create an optional choice between the MM and the PoD resto, like in RoJway? Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 23:16, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah right. The MM is probably the weakest of the mainbar bunch yes. I'm just having trouble fitting in prots without giving up Razah. Maybe switch the MM for another RoJ, and put some prots on one of the RoJs. But then you probably get energy problems for that monk. Dzjudz sig.png talk 23:22, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I was referring to the builds, not the elites. I basically run a SoGM bar, with ST as elite and 1 or 2 defensive spirits which I can micro accordingly. Usually shelter and the other one depends on the area. It works fine because this way your hero can put stuff like Dissonance up frequently and you hardly ever need all 3 defensive spirits in an area. I'm actually having some doubts about the MM hero atm. Isn't the MM like the weakest hero of the bunch? The MM hero is terribly slow, spirits fulfill the same role to a certain degree (maybe even better) and it has bad synergy with the ST rit. Why not create an optional choice between the MM and the PoD resto, like in RoJway? Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 23:16, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah right. The MM is probably the weakest of the mainbar bunch yes. I'm just having trouble fitting in prots without giving up Razah. Maybe switch the MM for another RoJ, and put some prots on one of the RoJs. But then you probably get energy problems for that monk. Dzjudz sig.png talk 23:22, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

The choice is: - Domination/SoGM + hero with prots and some damage/support (MM prot, Curse prot(, RoJ prot?)) - ST + hero with non-mesmer and non-rit damage (RoJ, Invoke, etc) Which option is preferable? If you choose the first you have to figure out what your prot hero will be; if you choose the second you have to figure out what your damage hero will be. If you choose the first you have about 1.5 heroes worth of damage, if you choose the second you have 1 hero worth of damage (bit more if you stick a couple of offensive spirits on the ST instead of Union/Displacement). I would go for the first option and put the prots on a hero of your choice. The second option just gives up too much. talk 23:48, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I personally used PoD prot|PI|Esurge|Shared burden|SoS|2xRoJ and then myself as dagger sin. It's basically the last bar but I use PI over panic. That has served me well and hasn't caused any problems about lack of dmg or prots.  You honestly don't need mm or st. MM screws up balling, so if you're carrying a mm you shouldn't be bringing RoJ. ST is only needed if you're c-spacing through some elite area, or just bad at balling.  I've also found that alot of areas have annoying enchants(especially in newer content) so pod is helpful in that regard, a well as contributing to the spike sometimes.  If you're using merc's I'd just switch in either rt/m or me/m and bring in the 3 prots and slot in more useful skills. Or bring 3x RoJ if real manly(just RoJway though..). I digress, St/MM not needed or actually harmful to build. PoD is least harmful while providing prots. I don't like panic but thats whatever. So 1st choice. 2nd choice only good if you're bad and die alot. <3  Roland 00:21, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree. The Panic is just a placeholder by the way, you can swap in ESurge or PI of course. Dzjudz sig.png talk 00:35, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

ST Rit works as a substitute for prots as long as you don't get trained to death during pulls (also known as 3 second balling).-- Relyk 00:47, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, but that wasn't in question any more. Dzjudz sig.png talk 00:51, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Going back to what Dzjudz said about ST vs SoGM/Mes; you can easily spare some attribute points for SoA/PS. They may have to be micro'd and you also have to be more careful, but if what you want is bar compression and the most out of your skills, you will take care. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 01:02, 24 November 2011 (UTC)