User talk:Excluded/Team - General Physway

Now play nicely
^ Karate  Jesus  16:51, 20 April 2010
 * Play what? o.O --Iggy 's other account 16:57, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Arguing on pvx is like arguing with a 9 year old. You don't make points, you call each other names.--TahiriVeila 18:06, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Asshole.--Digital Digitalfear_Sig.jpgFear  20:46, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * NPA! Banbanbanbanbanbanban.  Life   Guardian  20:48, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * BAWWWWWWWWW Vincent Evan [Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 20:55, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Nonono, I was arguing in a perfect way.--Digital Digitalfear_Sig.jpgFear  21:07, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * All of you, that's enough. Comment on the build or take it to a talk page. Karate [[File:KJ for sig.png]] Jesus  22:14, 20 April 2010
 * Using cons for a general PvE team seems like a waste to a Normal player (noobs)<.< Elf-eElf.jpg 00:46, April 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * This isn't general PvE. It's mostly for Elite missions. ــѕт.  мıкε  01:20, April 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * no one is going to use these regularly for a single area when SC's exist. it doesn't have any of the required skills for any of them (e.g. teleporting res or recall in deep, teleport for urgoz...). i'd say it was more of a build to pug zaishen things, which I commented was easily achievable with heroes and no cons. however, apparently the three people on guild wars who still pug want the build to stay. - Athrun Feya [[Image:Lau_bfly.gif]] - 09:57, April 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Elite areas except the Deep and Urgoz. XD This isn't 12-man, anyway. If it isn't better than any of the SC, it shouldn't get 5-5. ــѕт.  мıкε  11:21, April 21, 2010 (UTC)

BIBLE. &#8212; Forget   01:21, April 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * There is a 12-man variant and we have played in the Deep successfully quite a bit. Of course, if it's not accepted as an eight-man team, there's no chance of it being approved as a twelve-man.  Minion Splinter Weapon.jpg Excluded 13:43, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

much better
Now this page is looking slick. Lau you are doing a good job.--- X <font color="#696969"> TREME 11:17, April 21, 2010 (UTC)

Consistency
Quoting someone from the Discordway conversation Arrogant started;"Discordway is significantly better than trash(basically what a 3-3 means)"

So I put it to you that 3-3 or lower are wrong, according to a flawless SoO run yesterday. Physway is significantly better than "trash".  Minion  Excluded 13:22, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * while strictly speaking 3-3 is a trash vote, 3-3 means the build works fine...and that's it...it doesn't do anything special, it's not really all that great, but it will work most of the time in your average situation. So don't view 3-3 as trash just think of it as an "OK", but PvX doesn't store "OK" builds. <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  13:32, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * "Reason: Per User:Daññy's vote, this build is tantamount to making a build that works in GvG and HA without modification. Yes, it works, but no, it doesn't do anything particularly well"; Comparing balanced teams to Speedclears or PvP builds is not a smart thing to do, by the way. It does actually do something well, though people only seem to realise this after playing with it. That last vote should most certainly be removed.  Minion Splinter Weapon.jpg Excluded 13:51, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * the key word in the WELL reasoning is tantamount i.e. equivalent to. The reason basically says what I said above (works but doesn't do anything we don't expect every other build to do). You say it works well, under what circumstances were you testing this (i.e. where, what mode, what were you doing etc.), that makes a great deal of difference to how well the build works, as well as your own opinion of what "doing something well" is. You're playing a very subjective argument here... <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian  <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  15:07, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok then, circumstances under testing: Every dungeon in Hard Mode, HM FoW, UW and in DoA; Foundry, City, Veil. Every regular mission more or less and several vanquishes, too. Blind Spam is never a problem; you simply adjust the physical's builds slightly appropriately. Enchant removal is rarely a problem if you aggro properly and have cover enchantments (e.g. Orders/Aegis). It's fast for a regular balanced team, it's very hard to lose, and allows room for error which would usually wipe your whole team. Although it's not exactly random c-spacing all the time; when there are foes who strip enchants, they are generally targeted first. Foes with ranged interrupts are removed secondly and when threats are gone, commence c-space. Minion Splinter Weapon.jpg Excluded  15:36, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * 0-0... I'm speechless.Roarer 15:39, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * The problem with that reasoning is that you expect a group of random people to A) form without heroes and B) be title hunting on the classes necessary to fully form this team, neither of which is very likely. Speed Clears form because they are an effective method of farming. I can't think of very many instances where I've heard of a full team VQ, much less one using specific builds and not simply an Imbagon, if available, and a bunch of damage. ···  Danny So Cute    17:02, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * People who play with their friends list regularly can use this and so can PUGs/guilds/alliances. I don't see any problem with this and I think PvX can greatly benefit from such a team build along with better serving its visitors. Cuilan 20:25, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * people who play in an orgonised manner will either already ahve a specific team set up in mind, or they'll say "bring what ever build you want and will just have a laugh" (I for one know more people who do the latter). As or using this for a PuG...I'd say if you can get away with it, make it so optionally you could take heroes in the physicals place (i.e. if you can't find enough physicals take a hero). Then people would (probably. I can't speak for other people) look on the build more favourably. <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  20:58, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hero AI is terrible when it comes to running any sort of melee. That's why they're usually relegated to areas where skill spam or interrupts are needed. ···  Danny So Cute    21:07, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, I generally don't use melee heroes on the off chance I play so I wasn't really aware. It was just a suggestion which i was hopping would please both parties. Are the Henchmen similar then? <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  21:32, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yep. The biggest issue is just a lack of feasible IAS. Not to mention, Whirlwind Attack. ···  Danny So Cute    22:37, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Tbh, I agree with Danny's reasoning. If this doesn't outperform the any of the current Speed Clear builds, it really isn't worth keeping. For Vanquishes, use 2-Man Heroway Team builds or just H/H; additional players aren't much of a benefit in most cases. Imo, add the SC tag. ــѕт. мıкε  20:47, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * If "Speed Clear" meant "Slow Clear", then I'd agree. However, the idea of SCs is that they get the job done faster than clearing every mob. ···  Danny So Cute    21:07, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * This build is made to make crappy players better.---<font color="#0000ff"> X <font color="#696969"> TREME 21:21, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't start that argument. You can say the same for Discord, except that was favourably viewed.Roarer 21:24, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * I have to say this: It's not tagged for SC, so don't compare it to SCs, and don't judge it based solely on it's speed (that means if it doesn't wipe things crazy fast don't vote it down, but likewise if it takes forever and a day, you can drop a point or 2). <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  21:30, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well said. What makes it fast is the aggressiveness of the physicals, however. As long as they are always moving or attacking, it will be fast. Besides; there are going to be people who, if they see an eight-man build, will use it, and therefore there will be more people to use it with. It all depends on if it catches on, and if Discord ever gets nerfed.  Minion Splinter Weapon.jpg Excluded 21:35, April 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * "...and if Discord ever gets nerfed."


 * When that happens, AND Spiritway gets nerfed as well, I'd be more than excited to see something like this in play. Until then, it's an 8-man build for general PvE. I get the feeling that 2-man Discordway might actually be faster and not require cons. ···  Danny So Cute    22:39, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * In that case, however, this build only really restricts two players (the E/Mos; the Rit and Necro could be run by Heroes). If you can get two E/Mo players with those two Heroes, filling out the rest shouldn't really be that hard; it'll be like Ursanway, but instead of Imbagon+Monk+Ursans, it's E/Mo+E/Mo+melee. Having to use Essences for PUGs is kind of shitty, though. >.> ــѕт.  мıкε  22:57, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * The problem with that idea is that Ursan was broken as all hell. It was faster than Speed Clears at clearing DoA. This can't do the same. ···  Danny So Cute    23:05, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I think we should add the SC tag, because we have next to nothing to compare this to, otherwise. When/why is this worth running over other full player team builds? This doesn't have a General tag or an SC tag, and it should have one or else the build hasn't any indicated use. Hero and Team tags denote who should run it, but not where or what for. If this build gets through with just a Team build tag, does that justify the creation of other random Team builds, including Tank and Spank Team builds for purposes other than speed clears? I'm sure some of them could be just as effective as this. ــѕт.  мıкε  22:35, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * you don't need anything to compare it against, it either works or it doesn't. You only need to compare builds when you're WELLing it really. Added a general tag because my understanding is the build is to be used basically anywhere (i.e. generally). Actually the team build indicates the build is designed for team use, or contains multiple people's builds and hero just says a hero can use the build. The intro paragraph actually says it's for general use (sort of). And yes it does. we had this conversation back when EotN came out, when the original PuG meta was an Obby tank team build, we agreed that while it wasn't as fast as other alternatives it was reliable and short of massive failure on everyone's part, would succeed. So provided the build brings something the other vetted builds don't, then there's every reason to Vett it. Speed clears are, for the most part, designed with a very specific area in mind (usually dungeons or elite areas). <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  22:51, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Then, this isn't for Dungeons (the hard ones, anyway) or Elite areas? ــѕт.  мıкε  22:57, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's for general use....so "let's go do this mission" or "how about Vanq. that area!". You can use it for dungeons and elite areas, but those areas shouldn't be the focus of your vote. <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  23:00, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Now, what do we do with Archive:Team - Great Dwarf Scythes, which uses the same idea (lolmeleebuffs)? Should we keep both? ــѕт.  мıкε  23:06, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * That build is different in the sense that it is not at all primary-restricted. If we were to edit this build to not be restricted to primaries, it would simply fall into WELL because of the fact that it already exists. ···  Danny So Cute    23:13, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

You cannot compare this build to SC's. It is not a speed clear.  Of course you could bond everyone, use speed boosts, and probably match SC times in some areas (e.g. I've been told Varda tried this in Ooze and reached 4-6 min). There's no fun in that though. The point of the build is to clear elite and hard areas without using the typical SC strategies.

When you actually give it a try (or bother to look at game mechanics), you'll notice that you will often beat "PUG SC" times and beat non-sc pug teams by a very wide margin and low fail rate. With a more experienced team, your completion times will often only be matched by a SC done by an experienced group. For example, with an experienced team I was averaging around 50-60 min completion times of UW which will rarely be beat outside of a good SC team.

The problem here is that some of you think the only options are SC or H/H. This is simply wrong and closed-minded.

Other random points:
 * 1) 2-man discordway goes at a painfully slow pace compared to this.  If you think otherwise, I suggest you stop playing with heroes and form a full 8-player team once in a while. (this isn't to say discord isn't "fast" but that a good 8-player team should always be faster or you are doing it wrong)
 * 2) About cons: the build is mislabeled, it only requires Essence (not a full conset) in hard areas.  A full conset can help, but I've done plenty of UW/DoA/Deep/Urgoz/etc. with just Essence.  For easier areas (about half the dungeons or more, and most of the missions in HM), you do not need any cons.
 * 3) Vanquishing: this build, in all likelihood, will preform significantly faster than 2-man hero teams.  But this build isn't for vanquishing and I wouldn't bother trying to get a 8-player vanq team.  You can complete almost every mission/area/task in the game with this build, but it is really only worth taking the time to set it up for hard areas.--Arrogant Bastard 23:13, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Screens of completion times or it doesn't matter. Also, I thought UWSC was back down to around 30? I'd mention the part about forming 8-man teams for Vanqs and such, but I really don't thing you're going to suddenly understand it if someone explains it for the dozenth time. ···  Danny So Cute    23:21, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Id rather not waste time forming a 8man team and waste a bu when i could just roll with discord and complete what ever i was doingDr Rawr 23:24, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Nothing's stopping you. Cuilan 23:27, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1. Tell me when you see PUG UWSCs consistently hit 30 mins.
 * 2. I don't take screen shots often. If you think my claims are somehow outrageous, I suggest you try 8-player balanced sometime.
 * 3. Understand what point? I said forming 8-man teams for vanquishes is unreasonable and that this build was never intended for it.  If you are implying that forming 8-man for anything outside of sc's is unreasonable then I will disagree; the daily ZB provides a large pool of pugs to pick from and elite areas often have people wanting to do them outside of the ZB.
 * Dr Rawr: If you don't like 8-player teams, then there are plenty of hero teams. If you don't like playing with other people, then this build isn't stopping you from doing so--Arrogant Bastard 23:30, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * So you're suggesting that this build can consistently outperform SC teams in the areas those SCs are designed for? ···  Danny So Cute    23:33, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "you'll notice that you will often beat "PUG SC" times".
 * PUG SC teams are typically slow, but usually are faster than non-sc PUG teams. I'm saying that this build offers the ability to create a team which is significantly faster than regular PUG groups and often faster than PUG scs (and probably a much lower fail rate).--Arrogant Bastard 23:44, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Right here's where you have a choice because I'm sick of people saying you can't compare it to s SC team, and then saying it's better than them the next. Here are your choices:
 * leave the tags as they are, and the build is vetted as a normal build, and any and all votes comparing this to a SC build will be removed.
 * Tag it as a SC team, and you can vote based on it's merits of how quick it is, and how it compares to other SCs.
 * Finally, clear up what areas this build is designed for, the page says it's for general use and not really Elite/dungeons, however you seem to be saying that's exactly what it's designed for. This point is criticle as it will effect what we let people get away with when they vote. <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  23:52, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * The build always listed elite areas and hard dungeons as the main uses but it was edited out. Are you suggesting to simply list the areas in the intro and remove "general" from the build title?--Arrogant Bastard 23:55, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

GDW vs Splinter Weapon
This subject has had a fair amount of debate on it and I'm confident that I have reached a reasonable conclusion.

First the math:

"Assume Splinter@10 is cast on the recharge and always scores every trigger on every hit. It's maximum possible DPS is (4*35*3)/6 = 70. Splinter@16 has a maximum possible DPS of (5*53*3)/6 = 132.5. Both of those figures are maximum possible values that are rather unrealistic. You're not going to get 3 adjacent foes on all 5 hits every time you cast Splinter. In fact, you're probably going to get a lot less. Each missed trigger takes ~9DPS off the r16 Splinter's maximum. By comparison, assume GDW@10 is cast on the recharge, and your team has enough sins to put it on, and they are using JS+FF+DB+auto+auto. Your DPS would be (20 / 6) * 20 * 1.86267039 = 124.178026. And that is a pretty realistic number because the sins are going to keep swinging. If r16 Splinter misses a trigger or two per cast (quite likely), it's going to have less DPS than GDW. Splinter's only serious advantage is that it can be spikey when combined with multi-hit attacks. Then there's GDW's really, really powerful KD effect to consider." - Chtlon

TL;DR:
 * 1. Splinter only provides more DPS in a small window of opportunity and provides a "spike" effect. 
 * 2. GDW will provide superior DPS more often, is easier to maintain on all melees, and has a KD effect.
 * (keep in mind the DPS comparison is based on this build's strategy).

Life Guardian suggested that bringing one copy of Splinter and maintaining GDW on the other 3 melees will provide the best of both worlds. This is clearly a viable option and there is no reason that a team couldn't do this.

Now if you wanna ball up some foes a bit to take advantage of AoE, MoP is gonna greatly surpass anything Splinter Weapon could do anyway.

MoP has always been an option for the support slots, but is not the default because it requires a more experienced team. Inexperienced players will generally do poorly at following what the MoP Necro calls and thus it is easier to give them Orders + GDW + SoH and let them kill the closest foes.

If you disagree with these findings or have anything else to say, feel free. Keep it civilized this time.--Arrogant Bastard 00:14, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * MoP has a 20 second recharge (16 with EoC), so unless you have something to recharge it, you won't be getting much out of it. Even the Daggers could deal up to 110 armor-ignoring damage with auto-attacks (with high ranks), so MoP won't be triggered very often. I'd done some of the math here, too for GDW vs Splinter (for Scythes, though). With an EoC, Splinter Weapon's and GDW's recharges+casting times would also be 5 seconds instead of 6. Also, with an Essence of Celerity, the Sins can manage Jagged->Fox->DB->Auto, so an average of 5.3 attacks (Double Strikes for the auto-attack) in 2.44 seconds or 2.17 attacks per second (265/122 for the exact number). So, each Sin could deal an additional 20 (GDW) * 1.75 (Asuran Scan) * 2.17 (attacks per second) = 76 DPS with GDW. Splinter Weapon would be useful for Earth Shakers, Barragers and Imbagons, tbh, and works even better in combination with MoP. Daggers are your best bet, but I wouldn't expect 5 of them. ــѕт.  мıкε  01:50, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * MoP would require Assassin's Promise to be at all useful. Minion Splinter Weapon.jpg Excluded 01:57, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * St. Mike: I'm under the impression that MoP implies the standard AP MoP Necro build. With the variables used in my analysis above, GDW usually provides more DPS and the added bonus of KD. Now if you are balling foes, Splinter is going to do more damage probably; however MoP does significantly more, enough that you don't need splinter.
 * Moreover, you can still only maintain splinter on 1 melee unless you are bringing multiple copies...but this does not fit in the build.--Arrogant Bastard 02:05, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

Order of the Vampire vs Order of Pain
This topic has also received a fair amount of debate and again I think have reached a reasonable conclusion.

First the math:

"The added damage for OoP over OoV with Scan is 17*.75=12.75 per hit. And with Scan and BuH 20.1875 per hit." - Chtlon

This is a significant damage advantage for OoP. In addition, OoP build allows for Dark Fury which will help if you are bringing adrenaline based melee.

''1. So then why OoV? ''

It provides moderate redbarring to reduce pressure on ER's and to counter degen. From this perspective, OoV provides both offense and defense, and the more layers of defense there are, the less likely the team will fail. If everyone played perfectly and Anet servers were perfect and your computer was perfect and your connection was perfect, then you could drop all the defense but the ER's. Unfortunately, this isn't the case.

''2. Okay, so OoV is good because it serves as offense and defense. But why is it the default?''

OoV is the default because the assumption is that you won't have a perfect team. Not everyone you play with is going to be experienced and if you want to casually do a ZB for a hard area, you may want to form a PuG group rather than SC'ing or h/h. Thus, OoV provides an extra layer of defense to ensure the run is a success.

3. Then when do you want to use OoP?

A more experienced team can take OoP for the extra damage to speed things up since they won't need as much defense. Also, if you plan to take many adrenaline based melees, it would be a good idea to bring OoP since you can also use DF (although Mark of Fury is a decent option if you want to keep the extra defense of OoV). Also OoP is good in heavy enchantment removal areas since it uses at least one more party wide enchantment over OoV.

4. Another issue that has been brought up was the the OoV bar could not possibly keep up spamming compared to the OoP bar.

The solution is simple: Signet of Lost Souls and 20% enchant mod:
 * (math)
 * 1. Use enchant mod. Lowers OoV to 15sec * 5e/6sec = 12.5e over 15sec.
 * 2. Use SoLS. Adds 15sec * 6e/8.25sec = 10.90...e in 15sec.
 * ~20e available to burn over 15sec.
 * Also, note that Foul Feast can cost less than 5e, or even give energy -- if you choose that for removal. - Chtlon

Another point to note is that both Orders bars were not meant to provide large amounts of cleaning. Hex/condition removal on both bars is intended for removing the most debilitating conditions and hexes. For this purpose, these bars do their job. If you are in an area the requires a ton of cleaning, you need to bring a separate cleaner.

So in conclusion:
 * 1) OoV provides an extra line of defense and has no mana problems
 * a. This means it is superior to OoP for the average team since it decreases the chance of failure
 * 2) OoP provides a significant damage advantage, adrenaline fueling, and cover enchantments
 * a. This means it is superior to OoV for more experienced teams, or when using adrenaline based melees, or when in need of extra enchantment cover

If you disagree or have any other points to make, feel free to post. Please keep it civilized.--Arrogant Bastard 00:47, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Is there really that big of a difference between ~35 healing per attack and ~50 healing per attack when you're only taking 25 damage per hit? Life   Guardian  01:19, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * When there are a lot of damage packets coming in at once and degen, then yes it does make a difference. Since everyone should be maxing out their IAS, the heal difference adds up.  Moreover, it takes pressure off the ER eles which helps if they aren't as experienced (yeah rare but there are people trying to learn it) or if the melees are and over aggro/overextend/etc.
 * Also you can't maintain Vigorous Spirit on everyone all the time; especially in high pressure situations, you can't always enchant everyone with it.--Arrogant Bastard 01:26, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * 4 people who attack on a 4 second recharge and you can't maintain it? :o Life   Guardian  01:33, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Under high pressure, Infuse and prots have priority. In this situation OoV becomes even more important in reducing pressure.  Obviously the ER should attempt to cast VS prior to engaging, but either way, the healing power of VS and OoV combined offer a hefty amount of healing when your melees are attacking at max IAS.--Arrogant Bastard 01:38, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Again, as my analysis above suggests, if you don't feel you need the extra defense you can just use OoP, which I'm going to re-add to the build.--Arrogant Bastard 01:43, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

WELL
All right I'll get the ball rolling shall I. My issue is this, the build's designed for "Harder dungeons and elite areas", now i'm fairly sure, chances are everyone in those outposts will be looking for SC, because they either want to grind it for faction/gold or they want to farm it for a specific item (such a VS or Emerald blades iirc).

Now I'm not saying absolutely everyone there will be looking for a SC, you may find the odd person just wanting a laugh and running something else, and here's where we hit a snag. You need 4 physicals, as well as you're specific backliners. I can't see that being easy to set up as a PuG.

I've seen an argument "there's plenty of people when this areas the ZM" somewhere around here, but then here's my response: I don't want to have to wait up to 62 odd days, or however long for the cycle to get round to the specific mission I want. I should be able to go "OK i want to do this area, I've gotten an OK looking team without too much hassle and I'm off!" instead of spending a few hours waiting for enough people to appear for this specific composition.

Now then, people are welcome to respond and add input obviously, but given the history on this talk page:
 * Keep on topic (i.e. the WELL tag or a specific point/issue someone has raised in response to it)
 * Be civil (i.e. don't resort to "your an idiot/wrong/bad" etc.)
 * I reserve the right to ban (without warning) anyone caught breaking the above 2 points.

<font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  00:51, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * The ZB was just an example of an easy way to find groups. It is extremely easy to set this team up during a ZB.  Now outside of that, if you aren't doing a popular area like UW or DoA, you are gonna need to rely on your friends list, guild, and alliance, but this is no different from how groups are normally formed.
 * The SC comparisons should be thrown out. There are plenty of people who don't SC or don't SC all the time.  The current guild/alliance I am in are mostly (or at least 50%) primarily non-sc; and the same goes for Minion's guild.  Excluding non-sc builds for elite and hard areas only promotes people to never learn "balanced" (or non-sc, non-h/h) teams and strategies.
 * I believe it is in the best interest of this site's visitors to be given the options of h/h, SC, and "balanced" teams (or whatever you want to call it). --Arrogant Bastard 01:00, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Right well you said it all. If I have a ele that I have to push get through an area to vanquish then why wouldn't I take this team and get a dungeon done or whatever the case.  Or even capping.  What I like the most about this is it will allow any build to try out new things.  You don't NEED 4 physicals....it is best if it is however.  Even if I wanted to try a barrage ranger with some dumb other skills in a team...then this is the support I would want.  The healing is just too great that kicks any monk build.  Yes I understand that to maximize the potential then 4 physicals will be needed.  Unless the point isn't to be flexible this shouldn't be welld.---<font color="#0000ff"> X <font color="#696969"> TREME 01:04, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, as far as maximizing damage, Chtlon did the math recently and it seems that 3 melee + Orders + Mop > 4 melee + orders. You could always  bring 4 melee + Orders and MoP though.  As you said, there is great flexibility, I have used Barrage and melee rangers, dagger paragons, and worse...and still steamrolled hard areas.--Arrogant Bastard 01:07, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * We've been running it as a small community for just under a year. After doing ZQs, PUGs we played with would add us, and each run it would be less hastle to get people to play. Soon, I ended up with too many people to invite on my friends list, let alone asking anyone from the alliance. Arguing that no one will play it because it's not as fast as SCs and no one will join, is a poor argument. You have your guild, alliance and friends list to ask before even contemplating PUGs.  Minion Splinter Weapon.jpg Excluded 01:08, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * So, considering I can get a couple friends to successfully do an area using a bunch of random build, I ought to post that as an actual build? You're going to need a better argument than "My friends and I have run this build before and we can get PUGs to join." ···  Danny So Cute    01:15, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The builds aren't random. There is a clear synergy between buffs, prots, and melee.  The right word is "flexible" because when you have this many buffs and prots, you can use Barrage rangers, Crit Barrage, Dagger Para's, etc.  They may not be ideal, but they will get the job done.--Arrogant Bastard 01:30, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * why are you arguing that specific melee builds are needed then... - <font color="SteelBlue">Athrun <font color="Black">Feya [[Image:Lau_bfly.gif]] - 04:55, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * The specific builds I want listed are the ideal builds a team should bring and also serve as a guideline for how other builds should look (e.g. spammable attacks, scan, buh, sy, etc.).--Arrogant Bastard 05:14, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

Category: PvE Team
I have removed the "general pve" tag.

This build is intended for creating an 8-player PvE team (with only ~2 logical hero spots as orders/cleaner if necessary).

This build is used for elite and hard areas which include, but are not limited to:
 * UW
 * FoW
 * DoA
 * ToPK
 * Some Dungeons

This is not a SC team.

This is not an H/H team.

This is not a PvP team.--Arrogant Bastard 02:43, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * K. In that case, delete this page, and make a UW physway, FoW physway, DoA, etc. Tbh, the best bet for getting a build into great easily is DoA, simply because its nearly impossible to pug at this point. Life   Guardian  02:46, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

ty danny.--<font color ="Blue">Ikimono <font color ="Brown">...And my Axe! 03:11, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * That would be unnecessary because each area uses the same general build with a few modifications. For example, in Foundry, a lot of cover enchantments are needed.  Once people understand the concept, they should be able to apply different variants easily.--Arrogant Bastard 03:33, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * The team is again tagged general. There is no tag designed for Elite area. Until then, the general tag stands and your argument in reference to, is futile. From the glory you all speak of this, I'm pretty damn sure it could be used everywhere in Pve, so, lets just say that somehow relates to a general tag. I know its hard to fathom.  Akio _Ka  t  suragi   [[File:Akio_Katsuragi_Sig.jpg]] 03:34, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Build pages aren't just about the builds, there's a usage for a reason. Even if the build wasn't modified in anyway, the places would still need their own build articles for the usage.-- Relyk  talk  03:35, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Just add a general tag. There should be one. Cuilan 03:39, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * I was trying to address the people who somehow think this is a good argument: "LOL 8-man team for vanq?". This build is not used for vanquishing and is really only worth setting up for hard areas.  The same reason why you aren't gonna get an 8-player team for doing NM missions.--Arrogant Bastard 03:39, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Would you mind forming a team and screenshotting your time for runs in each of those areas? It's the primary basis for voting in the areas you've listed. ···  Danny So Cute    04:41, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Creating different builds out of the same theorycraft is fine (e.g. Build:Team - FoW Manly Spike, Archive:Team - DoA Manly Spike), as long as they are areas-specific and have detailed usages. It would also reduce the theoretical optionals list nightmare. You could list what's specifically needed for an area, rather than say "if hex removal is needed"; consider if someone didn't know an area too well, how would they know what "variant" to take? - <font color="SteelBlue">Athrun <font color="Black">Feya [[Image:Lau_bfly.gif]] - 04:44, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't see the point in this. Why can't people use common sense while setting up for a certain area?  Minion Splinter Weapon.jpg Excluded 18:21, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

Updated
Changed a couple things on the page. Not sure if i like how i made the overview, but it gives an easy view of the two orders options. Life  Guardian  03:43, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * It does help, now if I could only add some melee builds and some of the other mid-line builds. I'll seek permission before attempting this unless you want to do it.--Arrogant Bastard 03:46, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Post the builds here(could probably copypaste from history), we'll critique etc. Chances are, the best option will just be to make the whole "you can use frenzy" part really apparent, and let people figure it out on their own. Could also update some of the builds on their pages to include other variants. I really don't see anything wrong with posting links to random pages, but i'm not sure if the minibars will really benefit the page. Life   Guardian  03:52, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * The mini-bars look pretty but its probably not allowed. I think a reasonable middle ground is when the Physicals section listed links to ES, 100b, Daggersin, WE, and VS Scythe builds and emphasized frenzy + SY.--Arrogant Bastard 04:24, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * i don't see why it has to be limited to those builds, it'll obviously also work with most if not all builds on pvx.. - <font color="SteelBlue">Athrun <font color="Black">Feya [[Image:Lau_bfly.gif]] - 04:53, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * This is why I disagree:
 * The link to all working PvE builds list a possible 67 builds (this excludes the team builds). Of those 67, only 26 will work to any extent for filling in the role of Physicals.  Of those 26, I'd only consider using about 16 of them.  Of those 16, only 5 are "ideal".  So at best, 38.8% of that list are viable for Physway, and at worse only 7.4%.--Arrogant Bastard 05:03, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's pretty obvious which the melee builds are (and this isn;t guru, we don;t keep retarded builds like meleemancers). - <font color="SteelBlue">Athrun <font color="Black">Feya [[Image:Lau_bfly.gif]] - 05:05, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * If PvX users are smart enough to look at a large list and figure out which builds to use, then they should be smart enough to know how to adapt the build to specific areas with the help of the guidelines.
 * Either way, adding a few suggested melee builds could only help.--Arrogant Bastard 05:09, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, if we only look at melee builds, using the same numbers above, I would only consider using 61.5% of the builds and only 19.2% of them I would consider ideal. --Arrogant Bastard 05:09, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * It doesn't help, that's the flaw in your logic-- Relyk  talk  05:09, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Specify the flaw please.--Arrogant Bastard 05:13, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * You didn't seriously go to decimals there, did you? Fucking christ, pve is serious. ···  Danny So Cute    05:51, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Well I had a choice between someone complaining about me rounding or someone complaining about me using decimals. --Arrogant Bastard 05:54, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

It's been real
Debating this build has been a lot of fun. Thanks to everyone's effort I realize that this build wasn't that good to begin with. This build can't possibly work well in any area for PvE. Therefore I have reflected the findings of this lengthy discussion in my new vote and will briefly outline some points below. I am confident that I have reached a reasonable and fairly objective conclusion in regards to the usefulness of this build.

If you disagree with my vote, feel free to discuss it here or on my user page. Remember to be civilized and avoid personal attacks.

So what have we learned from this lengthy debate?
 * 1. 8-player teams are impractical because heroes and SC's are available.
 * H/H teams are much faster to setup.
 * SC teams will complete areas quicker.
 * Making an 8-player non-SC team will take too long and you are unlikely to find anyone interested.
 * 2. C-Space = terrible
 * Balling up foes is the most efficient way to play. If you aren't balling up foes and using AoE, you are wasting time.
 * 3. True synergy isn't gained by throwing a ton of buffs and prots together. It only creates a havoc.
 * Real synergy is carefully crafted through rigorous trial and error. Discordway is a great example of this.
 * 4. Throwing together a bunch of random builds isn't how you make a team build.
 * People want specific builds for specific areas with specific instructions.
 * 5. There is no need for a General Elite/Hard PvE Team Build (#1 reworded for emphasis)
 * People won't waste time with this build. Hard areas can be very difficult and SC teams solve this issue by allowing everyone to complete these areas.
 * All other areas can be H/H easily

Hopefully, I will be able to use this new found knowledge towards making a new team build (Keep an eye out for Meleemancerway).

Thanks to everyone who participated in the debates. --<font color="Red">Arrogant  Bastard  09:04, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Pathetic...don't quit then wine about it. This your first build?  Everybody hates it when it is your first.  Just relax---<font color="#0000ff"> X <font color="#696969"> TREME 16:00, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Huh? I have sincerely turned a new leaf. I'm running Discord on all my chars now, including melee.  Never before have I experienced such efficiency!--<font color="Red">Arrogant Arrogant_Bastard_Sig.jpg Bastard  16:47, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * well apart from 3 all your points seem sensible (also i don't think discord is good with melee chars but any build that allows any retard to roll HM area with heroes has got to be decent). - <font color="SteelBlue">Athrun <font color="Black">Feya [[Image:Lau_bfly.gif]] - 16:50, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm glad you agree! But I will disagree with you on the melee part.  The high single-target spike damage that Discordway has cannot be matched by any other hero build.  Simply run scan and 1 condition attack and you can spike just as fast as a AP Caller!--<font color="Red">Arrogant Arrogant_Bastard_Sig.jpg Bastard  17:00, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Asuran Scan + WS + 3x Discord = watpve ···  Danny So Cute    23:58, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Tru, lol noobs spending time buffing themselves as melee when they could just ping skillz and let heroes do the work!--<font color="Red">Arrogant Arrogant_Bastard_Sig.jpg Bastard  01:28, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Screenshots
Random dungeon with heroes (Jotun one I think?)

UW HM

Shards of Orr HM

The Deep HM

Deep run with Arrogant

The sluggish time for SoO was only due to the fact we don't play for speed. When we're actually fighting mobs we tear things up and move on; but we afk, alt-tab and scan forums while we play. We often toss light banter even while fighting. I have no intention of redoing these areas purely for speed, because it's not how I enjoy the game. However, it can be done easily.

Enjoy tearing them apart.  Minion  Excluded 09:49, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

Apparently Photobucket sucks. Just noticed how shit the picture quality really is; I'll repost them later if you can't read it, if you so desire. Minion  Excluded 10:12, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * if your energy ever runs to zero you are so screwed---<font color="#0000ff"> X <font color="#696969"> TREME 14:53, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * We try not to let that happen. It's quite hard for that to happen unless multiple packets are in their masses (e.g. Barbs, Spiteful Spirit, MoP...etc.)  Minion Splinter Weapon.jpg Excluded 15:38, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Or edenial mes---<font color="#0000ff"> X <font color="#696969"> TREME 15:57, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Their attempts to lower our energy are futile. Max energy on the eles with appropriate weapon set is around 130-150; only way energy will lower is what I stated above, and if ER is stripped. Minion Splinter Weapon.jpg Excluded 16:10, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * I've yet to meet a Mesmer (or indeed anything) that can run down 100+ energy in a couple of seconds. The biggest threat posed is ER being interrupted or stripped whilst using Prot Bond or perhaps being hexed with Arcane Languor (only comes up against Shiro'ken Mesmers) whilst taking a significant amount of damage.Xenomortis 17:24, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

FoW Hm with 2 Heroes
 * 2x Er, 2x ES, 1x ZV Derv, 1x Cleaner, 1x MM, 1x Rit
 * Afked at forgemaster for a bit, didn't take fastest routes (killed some extra mobs)
 * Should be able to hit 40 mins consistently with a good team using no heroes.

--<font color="Red">Arrogant  Bastard  04:16, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Communing Protection
I tried avoiding this talk page because I feel its going to carry on for a long time. I personally think Communing Rit + Healer is better and more universal. You can go to places with enchantment removal and bring other physical like rangers. Kinda like my dream team. If the foe places tons of AoE at their location like slavers whats the team going to do? I think the ele's energy will blow up and once that happens its very difficult to recover. Also a good number of places have Chilblains. 19:02, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * You can run this in anti-enchant areas; there is a simple solution- Cover Enchantments. There are tennish enchants being thrown about the place. SoH, LA, PB, Vig Spirit, Prot Spirit, Spirit Bond, Orders*2; there's no reason you'll be losing enchants if you know what can strip you. If Chilblains is about, the ERs can seperate from the rest of the team, and then being hit will only cost two enchants. We also managed to do Thommis and Rand the other day, with no energy problems. Simple but effective.  Minion Splinter Weapon.jpg Excluded 20:46, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

Clean up
Revert some of the shitty edits or just copy what I have on my user page.--<font color="Red">Arrogant  Bastard  22:59, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'll be personalising it now it's not being subjected to faggisms ;p Minion Splinter Weapon.jpg Excluded 00:15, April 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Be nice to see the non bastardized version, less talking more tits!..erm..edits..&gt;&gt;Jayson&lt;&lt;&lt; 01:57, April 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's already on my user page, just a matter of Minion copying it over here. --<font color="Red">Arrogant Arrogant_Bastard_Sig.jpg Bastard  03:33, April 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * TITS OR GTFO. Minion Splinter Weapon.jpg Excluded 03:48, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

One more Screen
Kathandrax HM Level 3

We ran with five physicals and no OoV/SoH; so we could have been faster. Also I was solo bonding which is why I had to use the grail, to get 5e from ER. If this doesn't change your mind... Bleh. Could easily make 8 minutes on this level switching the war for a nec and another human ER.

Whole run took under 25 minutes.

Handling energy as a solo bonder is rather simple; keeping GDW maintained and having Aegis on the hero all all you really need to secure your energy.  Minion  Excluded 14:59, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Screenshots generaly dont get any opinions changed. As there have been screens of blank bars, frenzy heal-sig only bars, etc, getting gladiator points and stuff. If anything, screens can help in some way, but its kind of like saying, I had sex with a hot chick, who coincidentally was your sister. Yes you had fun and lost your virginity, but fuck, at what cost? anywho... Continue to use builds you like, ratings on this site really dont affect your personal decisions, try and realize that. Yes this site rates builds, but it doesn't really fucking matter. :p people who care will use whats great, and people who just play the game will use what they see thats great. Trying to force peoples will changes nothing. ;o  Akio _Ka  t  suragi   [[File:Akio_Katsuragi_Sig.jpg]] 15:16, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * I do believe screens were requested. By the way, your analogy is rather... Random.  Minion Splinter Weapon.jpg Excluded 15:55, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Akio is the new old-Chaos. He's rather random and difficult to understand, at best. <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">15:56, 26 April 2010
 * perfect sense make i do. Anyways, i do try,i just get into using commas and it goes downhill from, there, especially if its a longer comment. i try to stick to short ones. lol.  Akio _Ka  t  suragi   [[File:Akio_Katsuragi_Sig.jpg]] 17:22, April 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * Very advisable. I'm pretty sure that whenever I express myself with more than 3 commas, I'm doomed to mental typos and being so very fucking coherent when I just translate expressions from Swedish and Finnish to English and expect it to work. Should probably read more books. -- Chaos?  -- 14:41, April 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * ^______^ I always blame it on stupid readers, speaking Anglais on a native level would also kinda help =/ -- Chaos?  -- 14:41, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

Minion your build is just theorycraft. Screen shots don't mean anything idiot.--<font color="Red">Arrogant  Bastard  02:19, April 27, 2010 (UTC)