User talk:Selket Shadowdancer/A/W Way of the Shadow

This build is still under construction. Please leave constructive feedback. Made due to nerf to various Assassin skills that will most likely lead to the Shadow Prison Assassin to be archived. Unreal Havoc  09:35, 14 November 2007 (CET)
 * Seems cool to me. Place other assassin enchants under the variants.Jelmewnema 13:10, 14 November 2007 (CET)


 * This actually looks really nice, same bonuses as the orignal SP sin, without the nerf.--[[image:Victoryisyours_Sig_Image.jpg‎|19px]]Victory is yours 13:01, 14 November 2007 (CET)
 * I think the only downside, compared to the original Shadow Prison Assassin, is the loss of Expose Defenses in the main bar to be honest, though given the nerf to it I'm not sure if it matters much anyway. [[Image:UnrealHavocSig.jpg|19px]]Unreal Havoc  13:31, 14 November 2007 (CET)
 * This just hit me, but couldn't you go Black Lotus Strike then Lotus Strike in your combo? probably overkill for E-Management but at least you don't need to be reliant on your enchantment.--Zeron [[Image:Master of Magic.jpg|20px]] 13:38, 14 November 2007 (CET)
 * Spike would come too slow I think. Lord of all tyria 13:42, 14 November 2007 (CET)


 * You mean something like this?

[build prof=assas/warri dagger=11+1+1 critic=11+2 deadly=8][shadow prison][tiger stance@0][Black Lotus Strike][Lotus Strike][Twisting Fangs][black spider strike][blades of steel][resurrection signet][/build]

Leaves a few seconds between the 1st and 4th attacks, that are both hex based, which could be a drawback imo, but a viable alternative non the less. To be honest Enchantment removal would be unlikely (though not impossible as noted in counters) as the time it takes to Shadow Step in and strike is pretty quick. Unreal Havoc  13:48, 14 November 2007 (CET)

Or we could try something like, as I posted on the other page.

Impale still isn't nerfed just because of a 1 second cast time. It still is a deep wound and a good amount of earth damage. ;)

BTW switching your skills like this should get all the hex required skills off faster... Isn't that better? Lol. Dunno though. --Foolsauce 14:36, 14 November 2007 (CET)

Tiger stance only covers 4 attacks. –Ichigo724 14:54, 14 November 2007 (CET)
 * /Agree and I think the four best attacks that could go into the build are already in unless anyone has any other ideas? [[Image:UnrealHavocSig.jpg|19px]]Unreal Havoc  14:57, 14 November 2007 (CET)
 * This for lulz. –Ichigo724[[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 15:18, 14 November 2007 (CET) [[image:Ichigo724-lolololo.jpg|thumb|ts ends mid-bos, not noticable]]

The thing I do like about 5 attack skills is the added damage not just from using 5 attack skills but from BOS too. Unreal Havoc  15:29, 14 November 2007 (CET)

Energy is fine and the 1/2 second activation from fox fangs doesn't slow down the spike too badly Muggy 09:43, 15 November 2007 (CET)

Interesting, I'm going to athter a list together of all the variants we can muster and will post the best up in variants when I get a chance to. Unreal Havoc  12:50, 15 November 2007 (CET)

Testing
Seems no one has really opposed this or said anything relatively bad about it (which is a first for one of my builds) yet, I'm moving this into testing. Unreal Havoc  17:28, 14 November 2007 (CET)
 * Good luck. Good attempt at un-nerfing SP sins. I personally like the Black Lotus-->Lotus combo, but that is just me.--Zeron [[Image:Master of Magic.jpg|20px]] 22:51, 14 November 2007 (CET)

Ratings
Nice the first rating is "Great". Hope more ratings like that come this way. :) Unreal Havoc  19:19, 14 November 2007 (CET)
 * It actually seems like quite a good build. I'll test it when I get the chance. Enchant removal is moot, since you self-disenchant so quickly anyway. Based on theory, I'm gonna rate it 4-5-4, but it's liable to change this soon. LavaEdge324 22:08, 14 November 2007 (CET)

I just have this feeling...
''Golden Phoenix Strike: Off-Hand Attack. If you have an enchantment on you, this attack does +8...26 (whatever the range is) damage. If you do not have an enchantment or if target foe is hexed, this attack misses.'' Can anyone else see this coming? LavaEdge324 22:11, 14 November 2007 (CET)
 * I reckon it'll be change SP to "Shadowstep to target foe. You die." Lord of all tyria 22:14, 14 November 2007 (CET)
 * Please, let's just enjoy it while we can. :D [[Image:UnrealHavocSig.jpg|19px]]Unreal Havoc  00:14, 15 November 2007 (CET)
 * Not that it really matters anyways, GW2 will come out soon, right? please... --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]] Ressmonkey   (talk)  00:28, 15 November 2007 (CET)
 * I'm just going to get Hellgate:London and reinstall Diablo 2, tbh. --71.229.204.25 00:30, 15 November 2007 (CET)
 * Hellgate London looks cool. :) [[Image:UnrealHavocSig.jpg|19px]]Unreal Havoc  00:32, 15 November 2007 (CET)
 * But it fails. –Ichigo724[[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 00:34, 15 November 2007 (CET)
 * You played it? What's it like? Actually this is off topic, tell me on my talkpage cz it needs some love anyway. :) [[Image:UnrealHavocSig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Unreal Havoc  00:36, 15 November 2007 (CET)
 * Really? Testicles.  Heard anything about Warhammer Online? --71.229.204.25 00:38, 15 November 2007 (CET)
 * Nope and still off topic. I love Warhmmer though so I'll talk about that all day on my talk page too. :) [[Image:UnrealHavocSig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Unreal Havoc  00:43, 15 November 2007 (CET)
 * Age of Conan is somethign im looking at getting Dutchess of Rose  aka  lukejohnson  - talk - Contributions 12:33, 20 May 2008 (EDT)

My Vote
When I write 'lead attacks' I mean the enchantment that fulfills Golden Phoenix Strike and the hex nature of SP that fulfills the requirement for any 'black' attacks. Therefore the build contains two substitute 'lead attacks'. I wasn't aware this wasn't obvious. Defiant removed my vote because I "[fail] to substantiate [my] claim the there is in fact a better shadowstep than SP." Perhaps this is my fault for again not elaborating. Beguiling Haze would work, with the higher energy cost being refunded by a consequently higher energy return from Way of the Lotus. The build doesn't have any 'Black' attacks. Investing a good portion of attribute points for a elite hex/shadowstep that doesn't even utilize black attacks makes no sense. Even Death's Charge with its longer recharge would be better. Now I know that would mean this build has no snare, but a knockdown would work better anyways, considering this should be a spike build. Realize this is an entirely different point from my first one. I say it is redundant to fulfill two different requirements for off-hand attacks, when really only one is needed. In doing so, the build becomes predictable and counterable. Should be vote not be restored, I expect a full refutal of my points. Shen (contribs) 01:01, 15 November 2007 (CET)
 * You do realise that the Knockdowns have now been nerfed to lessen the damage they do right? Kind of defeats the point of spike damage. Not to mention you need at least one or two attacks before hand to use said knockdown both of which are also conditional. One of which relies on cripple, the other on your opponent not being adjacent to another player. As for Beguiling Haze and Death's Charge being better Shadow Steps than Shadow Prison, I just lmao! Beguiling Haze costs more, enough said, Deaths Charge longer recharge time. Seriously you have nothing there that really helps substantiate your vote. This build does just as good damage as the original Shadow Prison Assassin while managing to maintain the same conditions, enchantment removal will hardly be a problem as you will remove it yourself by the second attack in all of about 2 seconds. They better be quick. As for hex removal is that anything new about shadow Prison Assassins? Didn't think so. [[Image:UnrealHavocSig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Unreal Havoc  01:13, 15 November 2007 (CET)
 * When you edit your comments you need to designate that you did so. Otherwise it's vandalism.
 * And though I hate to admit it, Skakid made it evident that I was wrong in my comment about lead attacks; More pre-requisites mean more dual attacks. So suffice it to say I've been humbled. I'll change my vote accordingly. [[Image:Shogunshen_Sig.jpg|20px]]Shen (contribs) 01:26, 15 November 2007 (CET)

Shen (contribs) 01:26, 15 November 2007 (CET)

A)You need a snare. See Build talk:R/N Touch Ranger for what happens to builds that have none.

B)How is having to starting attacks bad? It allows you to get in more duel attacks, which are good.

C)Beguiling Haze would butcher your energy.

Lord Belar 01:06, 15 November 2007 (CET)

why use A, B, C. numbers ftw! also 3 is obviously the most obvious reason and thus, this build should be rated above 4.5. Even though relying on enchantment AND hex is bad; its good after all those nerfs.- Jak123X 05:12, 15 November 2007 (CET)
 * 1.)keeps the SP thing still going
 * 2.)People think HB meta is destroyed but ppl will just run more crip-gankers and mock versions of the SP sin,
 * 3.)me likie

Variants
Below are variants already posted by various members posting onthis page:

Pleas post any ideas for variants or discussion regarding them here, thanks. <font color="Blue">Unreal Havoc  12:50, 15 November 2007 (CET)
 * 1 has the exact same skills as 3. just in different order. Keep 1 and remove 3, since order of attack is personal Preference.--<font color="Red">Zeron [[Image:Master of Magic.jpg|20px]] 13:37, 15 November 2007 (CET)
 * Well spotted, thanks. [[Image:UnrealHavocSig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Unreal Havoc  13:40, 15 November 2007 (CET)

Archive
If the better version only makes it to "Other", this is plain crap. However, I vouch for its archival, simply because I believe it to be more a Touch Ranger story, that is, one whose counters have been made known and exploited so as to render this chain useless. <font color="Black"> Shen (contribs) 20:18, 2 January 2008 (EST)
 * the chain is without doubt the strongest 4-attack-chain you can currently get (not using a kd). the problem is the other three skills. use siphon speed, flurry and way of the empty palm instead and you can spike every 15s without any problems. there's no reason to archive imo. - <tt>Y0_ ich_halt </tt> 21:28, 3 January 2008 (EST)
 * The lack of the KD is the biggest flaw in this build. There's no guarantee the spike will work at all. This alone means such a build needs to be archived, because at the time, there weren't better alternatives. [[Image:Shogunshen_Sig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Black"> Shen (contribs) 21:49, 3 January 2008 (EST)
 * I've been using it in AB all day today with the attributes I posted that were reverted and I have had no problems pulling the spike off at all or any kind of enchantment removal, not once, the chain is too quick for all but the most skilled and when it comes down to skill then you can't blame the build. The four attack chain is really powerful and quick and can always sacrifice Twisting Fangs for Horns of the Ox if you want a knockdown and then throw in Impale like on the last Shadow Prison Assassin (in other words look at the Variants section). Regarding the revert, you don't need 13 Critical Strikes because of Way of the Lotus and other energy management options in variants, it's not needed when you can get that little bit more health instead, and use less runes and have more base energy to start with. I'm not going to revert it again but I would advise changing it back to what I suggested because it really works ok that way, as tried and tested throughout the whole day. Keep it in my opinion, it's one of the better Assassin spike builds on the Wiki. Regarding the skill changes suggested by Yo Ich Alt, it could work like that but then you lose that "BLAM your dead!" moment the spike is famous for in the first place, not to mention the best Shadow Step snare in the game. Selket Shadowdancer 22:09, 3 January 2008 (EST)
 * that surprise effect is actually nothing as long as you can't follow it with a kd or something else that makes your target inable to do anything. if you have siphon speed, your target may know what's coming up, but they can't really react to it, either. specially since you can reapply siphon 5s later if it's removed. if you get sp removed or disabled by Hex Breaker (which is rather popular these days), you're useless. - <tt>Y0_ ich_halt </tt> 08:16, 4 January 2008 (EST)
 * I would say it depends on the team you run it in. A heavy hex based team would benefit this build greatly and Hex Breaker is only really something you have to watch for on Mesmer (1st or 2nd) proffessions and something thats a bane on all Assassin builds that are hex based anyway. Not to mention that like the Trampling Ox you can always swap out the Resurrection Signet for Siphon Speed should you need to reapply a hex and that variants exist to run a knockdown if nessacary. Selket Shadowdancer 08:22, 4 January 2008 (EST)
 * we're not discussing variants, we're discussing the build. and hex breaker on sp is definetely dangerous, unlike hex breaking siphon speed. and if you insist on hex-heavy teams, remove the RA tag. empty palm+siphon is better in attribs, too, btw. - <tt>Y0_ ich_halt </tt> 08:33, 4 January 2008 (EST)
 * Variants are a part of the build though, otherwise what's the point of them being listed? They are there to offer the user variaton in the play style and situations he may face, and the fact remains that you can do that. Regarding hex based teams I never insisted on anything, I said it would beneift from them, which is mostly in regards to TA where you can choose the team you play with. I played this all day in AB yesterday and needed little assistance to kill anything so I don't see how Shadow Prison needs changing to a half range hex spell that allows you to be hurt by Nukers etc before you get anywhere near them, Siphon Speed also takes the surprise out of the build because the target can see you coming due to the range you have to be in to use it. Way of the Empty Palm is ok but not needed as the energy management is ok as it is. Every build has its counters and Hex Breaker has always been dangerous on Shadow Prison, even with a backup hex they can kite due to the lack of snare. It's not a hard build to use and a skilled player would be more than capable of instagibbing targets at leisure, it's really no different to using the old Shadow Prison Assassin except you miss the anti-block really. Selket Shadowdancer 09:04, 4 January 2008 (EST)

Selket, you need to understand why the SP Trampling Ox Sin has a Good rating when tagged only for HB, and an Acceptable one when tagged for other places. One can coordinate with fire ele heroes to ensure an extra hex as a precaution, or for some utility so that it might firstly be able to cripple spam (not applicable regarding this sin) and secondly because one can still execute the chain minus the shadowstep. Mr. German's proposal with Siphon speed attempts to add some universality, so that in the none-to-unlikely event the first shadowstep fails, one can still hex with Siphon Speed. Addressing Mr. German, I don't see how the bar you suggested would fit, whether it would be a dupe of, or whether it would still have a KD. No KD on this sin fails horribly. Problem is, a KD, exactly like the Trample Sin's chain means there can't be an extra hex. This is why it's been tagged for HB. Lastly, Selket, never use AB to judge the effectiveness of a build. It is a horrible standard. There really isn't any weight to any of your glorifications, I'm sorry. <font color="Black"> Shen (contribs) 09:31, 4 January 2008 (EST)
 * I do believe that I see an AB tag on this build? Oh yes there it is, the first tag right next to TA and RA. No further comment required. :) Selket Shadowdancer 10:03, 4 January 2008 (EST)


 * It can be used in AB, it doesn't mean that's what its primarily designed for...AB is like PvE, anything can work there. 147.72.67.23 10:11, 4 January 2008 (EST)
 * Yea, AB is still a terrible standard. [[Image:Shogunshen_Sig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Black"> Shen (contribs) 10:19, 4 January 2008 (EST)
 * If it wasn't primarily designed for AB then it wouldn't have an AB tag on it. Checking history shows that it's always had an AB tag. As for anything working in AB, that's kind of wrong. Anything can be used in AB, whether it's any good in AB is a different story. It might not be as high a form of PvP as say GvG or TA but it's a form of PvP none the less. Selket Shadowdancer 10:21, 4 January 2008 (EST)
 * Still is fail, for reasons mentioned above, that you haven't addressed. [[Image:Shogunshen_Sig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Black"> Shen (contribs) 10:28, 4 January 2008 (EST)
 * you could've posted that link in the first place to avoid this whole mess >.> back to topic, there's no reason to archive. i'm rather sure there were better alternatives on november 14, so it was already not really good when it got submitted. it hasn't been nerfed, it just wasn't good to begin with. - <tt>Y0_ ich_halt </tt> 10:37, 4 January 2008 (EST)
 * Don't really see what I need to address. I used it in one of the arenas it is designated for use in, for the best part of a whole day, and it worked pretty damn good for me. Nothing more to say really. Selket Shadowdancer 10:40, 4 January 2008 (EST)

Maybe I didn't present my argument clearly enough. A build should be archived if it was, as per the category, "once in favor, but [was] either nerfed into oblivion or replaced by more superior builds." In this case, it's both. A Shadow step whose recharge has been extended, on a build without other means to hex. This problem is self-evident, in this build and in the SP Trampling Ox Sin. But the Sin build has a KD and a more powerful, less conditional chain. So this is clearly inferior. <font color="Black"> Shen (contribs) 10:57, 4 January 2008 (EST)
 * Still makes absolutely no difference to me. Take it up with an admin if the build bothers you that much. Works great for me when I've used it though. By the way, if my maths is right, this build does more damage than the Trampling Ox in only 4 attacks compared to Trampling Oxs 5 attacks. Selket Shadowdancer 11:13, 4 January 2008 (EST)
 * KD=more powerful chain. [[Image:Shogunshen_Sig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Black"> Shen (contribs) 11:14, 4 January 2008 (EST)
 * I wasn't aware that one KD added so much more damage, and it's still a 5 attack skill chain where this uses just 4 skills to do more damage. Selket Shadowdancer 11:16, 4 January 2008 (EST)
 * Yes, but a monk can still monk while the chain is going off. RoF on Blades of Steel... [[Image:Shogunshen_Sig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Black"> Shen (contribs) 11:20, 4 January 2008 (EST)
 * Well that's down to the Monks skill and really good timing considering the speed of the spike. A M/D could counter the KD from Trampling Ox with Fleeting Stability or quick condition removal, removing your energy management without even trying to. It's like a game of Rock, Paper, Scissors to be honest, a counter for everything in that respect. This build isn't a bad build, it works well and spikes down its targets real quick and shouldn't be archived in my opinion. Up to the rest of the community too though really. Selket Shadowdancer 11:28, 4 January 2008 (EST)
 * If you die monking against this sin, you are pretty dam bad. It seems you're saying it's better to not have a KD because of the chance it won't work. [[Image:Shogunshen_Sig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Black"> Shen (contribs) 11:43, 4 January 2008 (EST)
 * Not really, you shouldn't be spiking a Monk unassisted anyway, not to mention Monks aren't the only target in an arena. Will have to leave this debate here, I'm going away in about 30 mins for two weeks. Cya. Selket Shadowdancer 11:48, 4 January 2008 (EST)

I think this build isn't really outdated. Not everybody has EotN yet... It's arguable whether it should have its own article, but it could at least be mentioned as a variant in any SP build we have at the moment. --Luuck 11:36, 5 January 2008 (EST)

Old?
Lol it's outdated due to the fact that a non-existant build is better than it? 69.159.200.89 18:14, 15 February 2008 (EST)

Varient
[build prof=Ass/War Dag=11+1 Cri=10+1 Deadly=10+1 ][Shadow Prison][Tiger Stance][Black Mantis Thrust][Lotus Strike][Twisting Fangs][Black Spider Strike][Blades of Steel][Optional][/build]

Archive
Tried this out in RA a while ago...since the last SP duration nerf (a while ago, but still), even if the enemy kites under SP, they can get away enough to make you run after them and end SP by the time you use BSS. So I say archive or trash. - <font face="Courier New" size="2" color="black">Generic Wiki-er  21:01, 19 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Not to mention the chain only does ~300 damage including DW. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] <font color="black" face="calibri">Mafaraxas 23:44, 19 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Plus the fact that SP is the crappest skill i can think of for an assassin. And no i don't fail at asssassins, i PWN. The nerf killed it, so just leave it dead. OK? Dutchess of Rose  aka  lukejohnson  - talk - Contributions 12:38, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Alright, a significant number of the top 100 HB'ers like playing with the crappiest skill you can think of. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] <font color="black" face="calibri">Mafaraxas 13:23, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Archive, it is outdated now due to SP Trampling version. Selket Shadowdancer 18:40, 20 May 2008 (EDT)

2 Mafarazas, HB sucks. so it only makes sense they would use sucky skills. OK? Dutchess of Rose aka  lukejohnson  - talk - Contributions 12:09, 21 May 2008 (EDT)

Fox Fangs
With the 5 attack skill combo, Lotus Strike isn't needed. I have 35 energy (5 from daggers), and can pull off the combo without problems with Vampiric daggers, and it speeds up the combo. EDIT: Nevermind, just got a bunch of lucky crits in a row.і†оκαҐυ 19:01, 20 May 2008 (EDT)

Awesome Build
Even though everyone says this build sucks. I find it to be very awesome. I'm using it in RA and I'm killing everything except those Mo/W. I think this shouldn't be archived. 76.5.72.201 23:27, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * it sucks because of the horrid dps, shadow prison isint even an acceptable elite in my book dark prison is almost the same, it's non elite and instead of wasteing time with that gimmick elite it could be heavily supported by good skills such as flourish, secondonly, whats with the huge e management? if you have 14 crit strikes 14 dagger (450 hp) or even 14 crit strikes 13 dagger thats 480+ which should be enough in any case u still have 8 ranks u can devote to dark prison, two e managment skills? why not unsuspecting strike you don't need massive e managment at any case @ 37 energy or 42 useing +5 en daggers sins should NEVER use e managment &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wrath of the sin (contribs) 04:36, 22 May 2008.
 * It actually does more damage than the Trampling Ox build in only four skills, it just misses the KD. Also this is OLD, it was made when Black Lotus Strike got nerfed, like when Shadow Prison was actually good, and retains exactly the same damage the old version had FYI. Also learn to look at runes etc. This build without +5 energy daggers has 33 energy (38 with) and +15% damage adds up!. This needs archiving, because it is dated and not really used anymore. I don't even know why it was put on featured builds. :/ Selket Shadowdancer 05:24, 22 May 2008 (EDT)


 * A full set of armor with Radiant Insignias.
 * btw noob a full set is 37 energy incase u didnt know., the tramp ox haodw prison build sucks because of the 5 skill thing, no defence, no anti block/blind its just a failure like 99/100 of all sin builds that come out of this place so please fail more
 * it says FULL set of radiants thats not 33 thats 37 +5 = 42 retard
 * &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wrath of the sin (contribs) 20:31, 22 May 2008.
 * Now look at skills and attributes and look at the rune assignment... notice how there's no runes of attunement? and I'm the retard! Should learn to read mate! Selket Shadowdancer 20:51, 22 May 2008 (EDT)

Moved to userspace
Moved to my userspace. Been on the wiki and used long enough to not deserve deletion imo. Selket Shadowdancer 06:19, 28 May 2008 (EDT)