User talk:RoeChambeau/Team - Brer Rabbit

Well, let's see how this goes. --RoeChambeau 19:10, 11 June 2008 (EDT)

I'm sorry but there's no other way of putting this. Your tanks suck. Some synergy on their builds would be kind of nice. The skills are just so random, and tanks shouldn't use superiors. Why healing sig when you could drop final thrust and put on lion's comfort. Basically every hero sword build (and most player ones) need sever artery/gash somewhere. Heroes keep resing in battle too, so ur just going to keep pulling dead bodies with 25% health and zero energy right up to the frontlines. Why both incendiary arrows and searing flames? Gale causes exhaution, you can only use it 3 times on ur bar before you don't have any energy left. This team needs more synergies, and less superior runes. Plus degen only stacks to -10, whereareas ur team has -23 if u put all the degen skills on one guy (which will happen, cuz NPCs usually attack who you attack) so don't bother with that much. Ur word healers aren't that good either. You have 6 free points, zero smiting prayers, and smite hex. What do u do? WTB cure hex. WTB LoD. WTB heal party. WTB a spamable heal not called signet of devotion or healing breeze. WTB a hero friendly res. WTB spammable condition removal. WTB energy management. Your team is all good and all, but degen doesn't stack past -10, heroes aren't going to follow that eleborate plan of urs, your monks will be out of energy before your guys start taking damage. There's a reason why most PvE builds involve mostly sophisticated defensive tactics, with a few simple attackers, rather than your strategy of going all out offense with only the word healers and maybe Lina to keep you alive. Deezee 07:41, 12 June 2008 (EDT)

Addressing the Concerns...
No need to be sorry, it's not your fault ;) Allow me to address some of the concerns you've raised:

The Tallantanks Well, first, I have to admit this tank build was given to me by a guildmate who helped develop this (although he probably didn't realize he was helping at the time). So, I'll have to defer any specific commentary to him, but I can tell you a few things. First, that tank build is, while not a purely traditional "damage sponge" tank, does, in fact, never run out of energy (that is, it can use its skill bar continuously) and rarely, if ever, dies. Therefore, it fulfills the needs of this team setup in that it remains a front-line target and has the ability to knock down monsters that intend to penetrate to the backline. More on this later.... A good point you DO mention is the presence of rebirth on the tanks. You are correct in assuming that during battle heroes with rebirth will indeed resurrect dead teammates at any opportunity. What I should have put in the usage section is the fact that when I use this with a team of heroes I keep the resurrect skill disabled until it is actually necessary. Rebirth is an excellent way to remove fallen teammates from a persistent mob (such as you get in hard mode) without re-aggroing before you want to, and occasionally one of the W/Mo's is the only member left alive who can then be directed to flee to safety and then resurrect everyone else from a safe distance.

Sever Artery and Gash would be useless in this case as the foes should already be bleeding from Brambles + Gale (see below) so giving the warriors those skills would be a duplication of conditions (which, unlike stacking different conditions, is useless). It would add a deep wound to the condition stack, but the tanks will be concerned with attacking multiple targets in succession and it would be somewhat difficult to apply the deep wound to the "seed" target (the one from whom all conditions are spread) in a quick enough time frame to be useful.

The Word Healers Again, a proven strategy in practice, I wonder if you did any testing on these builds, or did you comment based solely on graph paper? It's a common thing, so, again, not your fault. The reason I put 0 points in smiting prayers, yet carry smite hex is that Smite Hex is the cheapest hex removal in terms of energy cost (5) and its primary aim (removing the hex) does not benefit from an increase in the attribute rank. That is, it will do the same hex removal job at 0 points as it will at 12. Given that the healers are not there to deal damage it doesn't make sense to remove points from healing prayers or divine favor just so that smite hex can deal out a little holy damage. It's counter-intuitive but smite hex is here as a cheap-energy hex removal, not a damage dealer. However, all that being said, I'd be more than happy to see a suggestion for a superior healer build to put into this team. That is the point, after all, of a community build wiki, collaboration.

Degen maxes out at -10 Yes, indeed it does. However, there's an often overlooked tactic of play you're missing here, and actually, the main focus of the Brer Rabbit build itself as well. If you plan for only -10 degen on your opponent, you probably wind up only applying -4 because your opponents' healers are certainly intelligent enough (even in PvE) to remove a condition or two. Therefore, if you apply, say, -15 degen from conditions, maybe another -5 or so from a hex or two, the opposing healer is in much worse shape with regards to stopping the rapidly sinking health bar of even one teammate. That brings me to the purpose of the team build itself: distributed degen. You'll notice that the main skills that the whole build is build around (Brambles, "None Shall Pass!", Gale, Epidemic) it's all about not only sticking -23 degen on ONE foe, but to MANY foes. That puts an enemy healer in a no-win situation and, quite often, an enemy team on the ground. So yes, you accurately point out that NPCs will attack who I attack and Livia does exactly that when I run this team with heroes--just as she should. In fact, when I run this team with humans, the Necro is instructed to attack the called target only (with Virulence) and then use Epidemic to spread that immense degen to as many others as possible.

Gale causes exhaustion Also you correctly point out that Gale causes exhaustion and that, as a ranger, I could only use it a maximum of 3 times without being out of energy. I can say, categorically, I have never run out of energy using this build, even without a zealous bow. The reason is that the synergies you claim aren't there, you actually missed. Gale is a one-use skill in this strategy. The purpose of Gale is to combine with Brambles to create the bleeding condition on a number of foes at once. At the attribute settings I use the single knockdown from Gale causes 20 seconds of bleeding on a number of foes, possibly even the entire mob if I'm lucky. This is plenty of time (and an immediate "starter condition") for the Necro to apply Virulence to stack conditions that can then be distributed. Occasionally I use Gale twice on larger mobs in order to re-condition some monsters that either slip by the first one or have used a condition removal. Never have I used it 3 times, and never have I run out of energy.

Why incendiary arrows and searing flames? It may seem, on the surface, that these two skills violate my self-imposed rule of not duplicating conditions, here's why it doesn't: First, incendiary arrows has the added benefit of being a continuous interrupt. If the "seed" monster is a caster (and very often it is) then I get the benefit of rendering that foe useless while killing it. Secondly, if incendiary arrows has already set the foe on fire, Searing flames strikes that target for 88 damage and applies ("spreads" if you will) the burning to all nearby foes. Using it a 2nd time does another 88 damage to everyone who was previously set on fire. So, by virtue of Searing Flames having two different effects, the conditions aren't duplicated and even more AoE damage is created.

--RoeChambeau 08:54, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Cure Hex also costs 5 energy. So does Remove Hex, but it has a faster recharge. On a side note, BRIAR RABBIT PWNS!!! - 09:15, 12 June 2008 (EDT)

Remove Hex recharges faster
Good point, making a change now....

Meh
Tank

Degen

Nuke

Bonder

LoD Spammer x2

Zyke 19:49, 12 June 2008 (EDT)

Energy
The ele needs energy management, the ranger should not have gale that makes too much exhaustion, the monk will quickly be drained of energy if it is a hero as it will over use Healing Breeze and the necro bar is decent-good and the tank should have lion's comfort because healing signet will usually make it end up with worse health than it started with by doubling the damage. Just saying, have a nice day. Cheese Eater 18:58, 26 June 2008 (EDT)