Archive talk:Team - 7 Hero FoCway

WTF is that Resurrect shit over there?!--Master Elros 12:11, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Back up ress kinda. Sjan [[File:Rsz 160px-dervish-tango-icon-200.png]] 12:13, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Hollyshit I don't want to be backed up by Resurrect, a lot better just to wipe --Master Elros 12:30, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * with back up i mean, if all foes, close to all, are killed, but the other ressers are dead you dont have to wipe:) Sjan [[File:Rsz 160px-dervish-tango-icon-200.png]] 12:37, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Builds should only need 2 rezzes, one rebirth at most included Le Shadow Form Slayer    [[Image:Marker.jpg|17px]] 12:42, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Happy? Sjan [[File:Rsz 160px-dervish-tango-icon-200.png]] 12:48, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I like the looks of this. Have you tested it out? Joe the pirate 13:02, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I did, but i couldn't be arsed to ball foes up. So it wasn't optimal, still worked fine tbh. Sjan [[File:Rsz 160px-dervish-tango-icon-200.png]] 13:41, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

The FoC MM isn't pretty, but I guess it can fuel energy. Minions will mess with balling, which is terrible considering this is mostly reliant on the spiking part. It also means you really shouldn't have an ST bar listed. I'd mainbar the SoGM rit; using a RoJ monk is counter productive since you don't have a snare. None of the FoC necros like blue bar, I'd suggest disabling defile/desecrate since they like to burn energy spamming attacks instead of utility. You can leave Stolen Speed as optional, a fast spike is only needed when there's healers around and even then, the extra damage from Ineptitude keeps the spike clean and provides antimelee. It's definitely a preferable option because necros take so long to use 2 second skills without micro. Other options would be Fevered Dreams, PI, and Shared Burden. Leave splinter weapon as optional, casters will want Painful Bond to cover enemies not hit by Panic and finish off any leftover enemies. Drop FomF on SoS and bring PwK as normal. You already have two copies of res on illusion mesmer and foc healer in addition to the variant slot; I would put SolS back on FoC healer because he burns through energy in a heartbeat. Drop Shadow of Fear, it burns more energy than it's worth and that's what you have minions and spirits for.-- Relyk 16:51, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * No energy problems have been noticed so far with these builds, the minions die fast and fuel great energy. Balling really is not my thing, and sometimes not possible. With FoC and Desecrate and Defile enchantments there isn't scatter right, but with the balling tactics micro'ing those skills with a hotkey is ideal and not all 3 skills are needed usual, so isn't Ineptitude(depends on the build you are using, i use FoC myself too.) Noticed that PwK on Necro is not optimal, better on ritualist as you said. Feel free to make those changes, you probally know these things better then i do. Sjan [[File:Rsz 160px-dervish-tango-icon-200.png]] 17:02, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * huh? the more copies of PwK you have, the more optimal it is-- Relyk 17:50, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Ooh, the point is that, that necro hero has only around 30 energy to waste. Sjan [[File:Rsz 160px-dervish-tango-icon-200.png]] 17:56, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I think he means that pwk lowers max energy, making soul reaping wasted more often and thus having big nee probs? 82.95.65.117 21:22, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes i know, you could better use ress on the necro and pwk on the rit. Sjan  [[File:Rsz 160px-dervish-tango-icon-200.png]] 21:35, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Ready!
I think it is rdy for testing, if you still have any idea's to improve feel free. Sjan  08:14, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Reply myself ftw, how about Emo? Sjan [[File:Rsz 160px-dervish-tango-icon-200.png]] 10:46, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Necro Spike Teams
Doesn't the formula of; 3x Spikers

Dual Mesmers and Ritualists

apply for many different kind of Necro spikes, like, and. Furthermore it does apply for other kinds of Hero skipe teams (like RoJ and Mesmer and Ele Spikes) as well. --Master Elros 07:55, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * It does a bit, but with FoC it's optimal i guess it makes 6 seconds of casting to 3 seconds ( aftercast will be same i guess). Ele Spikes are bad and at RoJ spikes it isnt needed, and discord is only single target, with another 1 sec casting. Sjan [[File:Rsz 160px-dervish-tango-icon-200.png]] 08:07, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Enchanted Foes
@ Elros as far as ive seen, they will cast desecrate/defile on like any foe, if you just call. Sjan  10:43, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Votes:)
@jaigoda have you even take time to read it, SoGM is mainbarred, and RoJ/PvE Smiter is listed as variant. Thank you:)Sjan  12:56, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't troll the user votes sjan...-- Relyk 13:01, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Ill try it again.. @ Jaigoda I disagree with your vote because the SoGM is mainbarred, and there is a smiter variant given. The reason why RoJ isn't mainbarred is because RoJ causes scatter and FoC defile descreate do not. You can add in your team a RoJ but be sure, that you have blocked or stucked them, if you think Mainbarring a RoJ is better you can discust that here. Thank You. Sjan [[File:Rsz 160px-dervish-tango-icon-200.png]] 13:21, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Typo on my part. SoGM shouldn't be in the build, unless you're in really easy areas and you just want more single-target damage. Also, I forgot to mention in my vote that the MM really should be there because of the balling issues. And variants are good and all, but you vote on the build according to what's mainbar. I could go on for a while as to why this build isn't optimal, but there's not really much point because by the end it would look way too similar to RoJway (or be way over the heads of typical GW nubs, a la EFGjack) to be vetted. -- Jai . -  13:42, August 4 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, you're not supposed to dispute votes on the build's talk page, you're supposed to go to the user talk page. -- Jai . -  13:43, August 4 2011 (UTC)
 * May i ask if you have tested it? Don't forget there is less scatter, most people cba to ball really everything properly (foes ball themselves sometimes or are just stupid and ball very easy). I never/rarely :::ball like EFGJack, but RoJway still works good, but i hate scatter. So i made up this. Also feel free to edit, you probaly know better too.
 * I think too this site isn't too store only builds on pro's are using the right way. I don't see RoJway used much, and if i do it's not the best way. This build might be nothing for the good players but for the rest of them. I think this is better than the current vetted 7h discord build anyway. <font color="##157DEC">Sjan [[File:Rsz 160px-dervish-tango-icon-200.png]] 13:55, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * If you're not balling stuff, then why the fuck are you running a spike build?? See, the thing with spike builds is that there's no way to dumb down the build like you can with other stuff. Either you ball stuff and get a clean spike or you don't ball stuff and the build fails and you should be running one of these. RoJ way still works fairly well even without balling because RoJ is good damage and so are Smite Condition/Hex and RoD. This build, however, has way too long of recharges to be more effective than other builds if you're just cspacing. What I'm saying is that you have a half-way build here that's trying to be a noob-friendly spike build, and the end result is something that's inferior to both high-end and low-end builds. -- Jai . -  14:06, August 4 2011 (UTC)


 * This is damage is good, the recharges are fine, because you have 3 skills that deal damage. i'm just trying to make clear that you don't have to put spirits against walls etc. to kill the majority of most groups. The energy is fine with the minions. And the SoS and SoGM perfectly finish off the rest, there is a bit to no scatter. I think this build can survive long enough with the spirits and the minions. This build can be a spike build and a "normal" build i think, noobs can spike too, and it can be used as a normal spike build too, i can make a noob variant and maybe you can make good player variant, but most good players know what to change in the noob one, i guess. EDIT RoJ Heroway has a SoGM mainbarred too.<font color="##157DEC">Sjan [[File:Rsz 160px-dervish-tango-icon-200.png]] 14:23, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * ............. If you're not balling... You shouldn't run a spike build. Period. End of story. If you are balling, then an ST rit is almost mandatory and minions will only be there to screw you over. And RoJway doesn't have SoGM mainbarred, it's an optional between ST and SoGM. And like I said before, RoJway even still works with cspace because of the more consistent damage of smites compared to FoC. Also, learn to indent properly, please.... -- Jai . -  14:32, August 4 2011 (UTC)
 * I see it different, you can't convince me, neither can I. Anyway thanks for your time. --<font color="##157DEC">Sjan [[File:Rsz 160px-dervish-tango-icon-200.png]] 14:38, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Sjan, don't take jaigoda serious, anytime. <font color="3333CC"><font color="3300CC">Le Shadow Form <font color="3366CC">Slayer    [[Image:Marker.jpg|17px]] 14:53, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * SFS is the epitomy of a PvE scrub. I'm sure you could win him over quite easily, Sjan. -- Jai . -  14:58, August 4 2011 (UTC)

I'm done with discussing votes, from now on i only discus with people who tested it (a bit). <font color="##157DEC">Sjan  19:12, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I did! Got trough slaver's and Duncan in HM, still the heroes are really lousy at using Defile/Desecrate in non-enchanted foes no matter how much I spam ctrl-space, however it does help with their casting effectivenes. At Times I had minor problems with very large mobs. In Enchantment heavy summit groups Defile/Desecrate is pwnage even when your aggro management fails. All in all effective build in suitable areas, but I really don't see why would you run this over other overpowered shit while c-space:ing through PvE. --Master Elros 19:21, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * As I mentioned before the spike skills won't make foes scatter like RoJ.
 * Edit, pretty funny that one say they don't use desecrate and defile enough, and others say they are too fast out of energy because they are spamming those skills. <font color="##157DEC">Sjan [[File:Rsz 160px-dervish-tango-icon-200.png]] 19:39, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Scattering isn't a big deal, that's what bodyblocking and binding chains is for. Unfortunately, casters don't get to spike with sw to finish enemies during the spike to make it clean. Drop the minions, low spec minions just blow up in a couple seconds and mess with balls. You'll be pushing kills with defile/desecrate and spirits in between spikes in addition to SoLS. I'd switch it to N/P for Never Surrender and SYG since not having a second copy of PwK makes pressure and aoe damage hard to recover from. Then you can leave it as SoGM or ST rit.-- Relyk 00:47, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

"Never Give Up!"
As much as having Never give up, never surrender (galaxy quest reference) on your skill bar is epic, isn't there anything better than NGU? We shall return is too expensive, but could be disabled? -- <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain  <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  12:19, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Imo only "Fall Back!" and "Stand Your Ground!" are really worth taking, and to a lesser extent "Never Surrender!". The last thing we need is another rez, so maybe Putrid Bile? <font color="Black">Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 12:23, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
 * No more death magic spec, so Putrid Bile would require an att split. Just leave the slot optional and include MoP as a choice for melee players to pump damage on spikes. Caster players can fill it with something else. --  Toraen   talk  15:44, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Woops Putrid is death magic of course, my bad.. Hmm yeah Torean is right. <font color="Black">Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 16:32, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Archive
Has anyone checked whether the team produces solid results if tailored towards a stolen speed player build? That'd allow to experiment with a more spike oriented 5 hero midline (backline BiP + communing prot) to see whether feast of corruption produces nice results. It might be a mediocre alternative to 5 energy surge teams to run 3 energy surges and 2 feasts of corruption. --Krschkr (talk) 12:38, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
 * FoC's biggest problem (though pretty much every stat other than its damage is a problem) IMO is the recharge. It's double what an appropriately specced Esurge (~10 FC) will have so it's available half as often while doing only slightly more damage but in a smaller radius. 3 ES + 2 FoC may still be worth pursuing as a budget option to 5 ES but it's still losing roughly half its damage on every other cycle by comparison. There's not really anything I can think of right now that hits the same points as FoC though:
 * Non-mesmer (and thus no mercs required)
 * Non-scattering
 * Armor-ignoring
 * No target limit
 * I suppose reworking this page couldn't hurt, but it'll be another one on the pile of builds to test instead of being preemptively weeded out like I intended. -Toraen (talk) 03:59, 29 May 2019 (UTC)


 * There are other alternatives to energy surge I can think of, such as energy surge on a necromancer. :-) I won't oppose the archival. If I come up with something I can still post it on the archive talk page or unarchive this build into trial. --Krschkr (talk) 09:36, 29 May 2019 (UTC)