Build talk:Team - 7 Hero Dual Ritualist Melee Support

Comparison to different melee compositions
Non merc/Zei Ri melee compositions are more difficult than caster compositions due to the splinter@16 versus third mesmer debate. Here are the compositions to compare it to: This build idea has been floating around for a while, but has never been posted. It originally was posted on the BiP Melee Support page (July 27th 2019 edit). It subsequently popped up on the now abandoned dual elementalist page as a minion variant. I have also discussed ideas for adapting dual mesmer discord into this composition on the corresponding talk page. At this point, I think this idea deserves its own page. Also, I am not at all committed to this name. I figured energy surge and blinding surge was enough "surges" to warrant this name. Although the "melee support" is missed, so I wouldn't be opposed to renaming it.
 * Build:Team - 7 Hero BiP Melee Support -- triple mesmer variant
 * Build:Team - 7 Hero Dual Mesmer Discord -- another dual ritualist melee composition
 * -- abandoned minionless build

There has been concern about redundancy with dual mesmer discord (same dual Mesmer, dual ritualist composition). But given the magnitude of the proposed changes, I thought I would list this as a separate page for now. Depending on the results of any followup testing, one of the two pages might be deemed inferior and subsequently archived/deleted. --Xanshiz (talk) 00:46, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
 * The best non merc melee team is either this team, or User:ZStepmother/Team - Placeholder. There might be some change in skills before it is truly optimal, but from what I've seen, other non merc teams dont come close. I've been doing lots of testing on this lately, and I hope to eventually figure out whether a 16 Splinter is worth taking over a 3rd mesmer. As for the SoS, I think resto is preferable over prot for most areas. Single healer is a bit dangerous when there is a lot of aoe and degen. The prot only really shines when you can pull+body block everything as the melee player (and there it's not even close, prot is far better in this situation). ZStepmother (talk) 11:02, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

To MM, or not to MM
I was reading in some other discussions that MM can be a little weak... What do you suggest for a MM replacement?

(I personally prefer to play without minions, but I can be convinced if it’s truly the better option!)


 * Up to personal preference. Bone fiends are the best of minions in terms of DPS.
 * I find most of my time out in the wild is running between mobs, and damn that's boring so I certainly think that the second copy of Fall Back is useful to have.
 * If I'm running a physical player (and can't choose another Mesmer or Ritualist) I'd take a Necro with
 * or a plain old paragon hero with Incoming/Fall Back/Stand Your Ground/Barbed Spear. - Chieftain Alex (talk) 22:05, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
 * PoD is a fairly weak elite, and the rest of the curses package isn't all that good either. If you want to drop the mm, I'd recommend taking a second air ele:
 * I personally don't like minions, so I'd recommend that setup if you share a similar sentiment. However, minions are a pretty solid damage source, so they are probably stronger if the area is favorable towards minion masters. --Xanshiz (talk) 00:04, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't really know where you read that MMs are weak. When looking at pure damage, MM are much better than eles. I also wouldnt recommend running a PoD necro, they are just very weak. If you just dislike having an MM in the party, the next best option would be an air ele. However, for the meta non merc melee team (bip melee support), it's very difficult to slot in 2 party wide IMS skills without losing out on a lot of damage. When playing the merc/zei ri version, you can slot a Fall back on the ST, and put SoH on the SoS rit, but that cripples his energy, making him more reliant on the bip.
 * I personally don't like minions, so I'd recommend that setup if you share a similar sentiment. However, minions are a pretty solid damage source, so they are probably stronger if the area is favorable towards minion masters. --Xanshiz (talk) 00:04, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't really know where you read that MMs are weak. When looking at pure damage, MM are much better than eles. I also wouldnt recommend running a PoD necro, they are just very weak. If you just dislike having an MM in the party, the next best option would be an air ele. However, for the meta non merc melee team (bip melee support), it's very difficult to slot in 2 party wide IMS skills without losing out on a lot of damage. When playing the merc/zei ri version, you can slot a Fall back on the ST, and put SoH on the SoS rit, but that cripples his energy, making him more reliant on the bip.

Alternative Comparisons
While this team comp def. works well, I started thinking of why the closest comparison would be to test against. All you really need to do is to take Build:Team - 7 Hero BiP Melee Support, bring a budget SoS, and replace 1 esurge with an ineptitude mesmer (and change discord MM to incoming MM). I would bet that this alternative would deal better damage, as the inept has greater aoe vs melees and is armor ignoring. You also have more reliable energy on the budget SoS and no dependence on enchantments for ineptitude. The upside to the BiP melee support page is that it provides an option to upgrade the budget SoS to Rit SoS via zei ri. Willarddog (talk) 04:04, 24 June 2020 (UTC)