User talk:Moloch/Build:N/P Knee Cracker

In response to the above:
In order to add some weight and show that superior options are indeed possible, allow me to present this:

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/User:Moloch/Build:N/P_Knee_Cracker
 * Yeah because anti-kiting in PvE is WAY more useful than damage!  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 18:39, 8 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Also, spears with casters suck, unless you're using them as, you know, caster weapons. --Guild of Deals * Wah Wah  Wah! * 18:40, 8 June 2008 (EDT)
 * "Look at me charging my Spear Attack while I should actually be using spells! =^.^="  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 18:41, 8 June 2008 (EDT)
 * You people seriously, I mean, really, need to stop thinking with your head up your ass.
 * The real damage done by a Curses necromancer using Mark of Pain and Barbs is, Mark of Pain and Barbs. A hero will almost NEVER get any mileage from a casting of SS unless your team sucks beyond repair. He'll use SS, spend 15 energy, and then the target will die within five seconds, producing maybe 3 hits of the hex.
 * What Weaken Knees does is, it produces a way to spam KD. The reason it will spam KD is the AoE hexes will. make. enemies. MOVE. In case you do not know, HM enemies do kite quite a lot. This will 1: disable enemies during KD, and 2: KEEP THEM IN THE AoE. Thus ensuring MORE damage from your REAL bread-and-butter spells... which are NOT Spiteful Spirit.
 * The hero will use his spear when he is NOT busy casting spells. If you'd actually used heroes in this way, you'd known that. Thus Wild Throw becomes a pretty decent, cost-free way of removing blocking stances. Is it needed? No. But this hero doesn't require a massive soul reaping spec with no skill costing above 10e and most costing 5 or less. There's no crime in adding it, and there's no crime ensuring his survival with some extra armor.
 * Ultimately, though, you are several levels below my thinking, and this discussion is futile. I'm moving this all to the talk page for my user build. Moloch 19:08, 8 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Heroes are horrible with Wild Throw. Just FYI. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 19:09, 8 June 2008 (EDT)
 * That they are... they are horrible with quite a lot of things, however that != wasted skill slot... it does add some mediocre DPS, it *should* be able to crack a stance or two and, well, it *could* be *shudder* microed (no, I'm actually serious, I hate for pve hero builds having to be microed.) Moloch 04:30, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Why don't you just micro Spiteful Spirit to be cast off target. It's an incredibly powerful skill and far more worthwhile than Weaken Knees, even if heroes use it poorly. Armor ignoring AoE damage at Hard Mode attack rate. - 04:46, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Like I said, I hate for PvE hero builds _having_ to be microed, and packing SS on the hero bar entails both 1: increasing energy footprint considerably, 2: bringing a slower cast, 3: using a spell dealing unfocused damage as opposed to concentrating on focused hexing, 4: bringing a hex working better the worse your team is instead of the reverse. If you have extensive experience running Mark of Pain, you know that actually, the _target under Mark_ tends to "flee AoE" (it's weird but I suspect it's got to do with wanting to "save team mates", now why can't heroes have that good AI...), and WK prevents this very nicely, which is just one of the benefits. It will assist any AoE nuke hex or otherwise. Moloch 04:56, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I do understand Moloch, his idea is original and helps to counter the scattering problem of MoP to kill mobs quickly, I can see it working. --Tiger   grrr!!  05:03, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Side note since I'm a pvx noob, how the hell do you guys keep track of everything going on on this page... just Recent Changes + watching pages? Moloch 05:18, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I have seen that people call it camping recent changes which implyes exactly what you have said. --Tiger   grrr!!  05:20, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * This discussion is going way off topic; I suggest you to either discuss it on the page Moloch linked above, or stop. And yes people sit on recent changes and F5. God  box   05:38, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

Microing one skill is like super hard, am I right? It almost takes more than a second, omfg.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ  06:31, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * How many people really do micro hero bars in PvE? It's a pretty major flaw if you're required to micro your hero elite because the hero can't use it properly.
 * Anyway I'm going to move this entire section to the user page. Moloch 07:40, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Good way to counter scatter. --Tiger   grrr!!  04:55, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Sometimes, you have to micro. The problem with Artificial Intelligence is that it's not always intelligent because AI written for stuff like GW is just a computer doing what it's been told to do in specific situations rather than being a true AI. In general it doesn't think about what you, teammates, or other heroes and henchmen have on their skill bars before it decides on what action to take so it requires some human intervention. - PANIC!  [[Image:Panic_sig4.png|50px|18px]]  sexiness!  07:52, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Of course all the above is true. That's Guild Wars 101. But the less you need to micro a hero bar the better. Even prominent HB players (who micro more than anyone else) agree that hero bars that are more self-sufficient, as in requiring less attention, are better.
 * You don't only have one hero on your team... Moloch 08:24, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Oh and... I guess I could put this for general testing. The problem, however, is that quite a few of the self-proclaimed gurus on this forum, examples above, will take a look at the build and go "omg, hero uses spear! And it's N!! Omfg!!! Weaken Knees, sux elite!!!! Adrenaline!!!!! Oh N0ES!!!!!! ... Moloch 08:28, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * And neither do you have 3 heroes who all requires microing. Stop making me get edit conflicts! God  box   08:29, 9 June 2008 (EDT)


 * Well, that's my point. One self-sufficient hero = one less hero to micro.
 * The necromancer is a forgiving class to play, and a forgiving class to build for. Its primary is so strong, it can compensate for major build errors, wasteful energy usage, suboptimal use of skills. That doesn't mean all its builds need look that way. Moloch 08:33, 9 June 2008 (EDT)


 * Oh and sorry about the conflicts... Moloch 08:34, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * But what I meant is that you can take 1 hero that requires 1 skill to be microed once every battle... God  box   08:40, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Sure, I just don't find it optimal. For several reasons, not only the microing issue. Moloch 08:43, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

Using adrenal skills on primary casters is rather bad. With a hero using spells all the time, Wild Throw is kinda redundant, as it takes ages to charge this way. If any, use an energy based attack or something.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ  08:45, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Can use Disrupting Throw, but given the team setup that this is likely to run in (Paragons, Dark Fury, maybe even Anthem of Fury (don't like that one tho)), etc, 7a isn't an unreasonable requirement. And yes it's going to be casting spells a lot - maybe acknowledge that further up the page instead of arguing that the hero is going to be "charging adrenaline instead of using skills"? - so no, it's not going to recharge at optimum speed, but it's his only adren skill. Moloch 08:50, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * If you run this with Paragons, why put spear attacks on it at all?  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 08:51, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * ??? Zealous Anthem, Anthem of Envy, etc, etc, etc... Moloch 08:54, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * What I meant to say is: Spear attacks go on Paragons, Necromancer spells go on necromancers.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 08:55, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Again, I am simply puzzled by this statement. Should we remove secondaries? Or are you just actively trying to find something to complain about??? Moloch 08:56, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I'm not saying you shouldn't adept your secondary, so that it fills a certain role in your team, I'm just saying that Wild Throw isn't the best option when it comes to that.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 08:59, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Actually, it's a quite logical match for the build job. Build designed to counter, punish blocking, buff team physical damage, disable. Rigor Mortis not very useful on hero bar with 20r. Most stances used by monsters used for blocking. Includes spear attack removing this, also benefiting from effects likely to be present on the team it's going to be used on. Moloch 09:04, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Rigor Mortis might actually be a more viable option. As said above, it takes ages to even charge Wild Throw (which could be compared to a long recharge) It also requires the Necromancer to get into range to hit stuff with its spear, which is bad.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 09:06, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * If you are to use Rigor, it should probably be switched from Defile Defenses. It would need to be disabled and microed. The difference in range between spear and staff is not enough to really provide any sort of malus in Hard Mode. Even though the hero will be casting very often, it will still definitely charge a strike of Wild Throw in less time than 20 seconds. Moloch 09:11, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Anyway, if you are to put this in testing, I suggest you make it at least optional or a variant. It only fills a specific role that might not even be needed (Sins take Wild Strike, Wars/Dervs take Wild Blow one would prefer Wild Throw on a Para)  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 09:14, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

Another thing is that Spiteful is quite different from, say, ehm, Rotting Flesh. I could make a case for microing RF since that's easy; duration is very long at reasonable DM spec, recharge is VERY SHORT so it more or less HAS to be disabled. Spiteful is on a 10r and supposed to be a major damage spell for the team thus you need to micro it every 10 seconds. Moloch 08:46, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * O boy, clicking on the skill icon every TEN SECONDS!? I don't think my wrists will be able to handle that, QQ.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 08:50, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Stop griefing, be substantial. Moloch 08:50, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Stop acting like microing is the worst thing ever, or hard at all. I usually micro at least one hero, depending on the situation and, tbh, if you find that hard /uninstall or something. No offense though...  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 08:52, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * You know you can assign "order hero (1-3) to use skill (1-8)" to keys, right? I use the number pad sometimes. 7-8-9, 4-5-6, and 1-2-3 are pretty logical imo for Hero1 skills 1-2-3, Hero2 skills 1-2-3, and Hero3 skills 1-2-3, respectively. - PANIC!  [[Image:Panic_sig4.png|50px|18px]]  sexiness!  08:57, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Yes, I'm aware of that option. However, please, answer me this: What is generally better, a hero bar performing its job with no micro-management, or one needing it? Take it from there. Moloch 09:01, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * A hero doing its job without any form of microing is worthwile, yes. But the 'job' isn't as useful as it would be if it is microed. (For example, dealing significant damage as opposed to a conditional KD)  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 09:04, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * And then we come back to the original point of the build, being, the main damage on the team using this type of character isn't likely going to be Spiteful Spirit, but Mark of Pain and Barbs, and given all the hits, Weaken Knees is a better match for this. More spammable, less costly, faster casting time, among other considerations. Moloch 09:08, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Weaken Kness is not needed. Kiting in PvE barely happens (well, unless you call AoE scatter kiting). Weaken Knees is way too conditional to actually be useful. Granted, most damage will come from MoP and Barbs, but SS is a very powerful addition, damage-wise.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 09:10, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * AoE scatter is precisely what this build will provide. It is also mentioned in the build introduction that it's a fit for a group using some AoE nukes. Is it "NEEDED"? Hell, no. It could run fine with NO elite. But Spiteful Spirit isn't a good elite for the build, provides no synergy, costs far more, is in need of microing, and does NOT add the amount of damage to justify this. Moloch 09:14, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * (EC)I have seen MoP cause scatter but... how is this supposed to prevent it? - PANIC!  [[Image:Panic_sig4.png|50px|18px]]  sexiness!  09:15, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Read further up the page. By preventing the called target from moving. Moloch 09:19, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * SS is a good elite for any build. SS is one of the most powerful elites when it comes to PvE. Weaken Knees, however, might be one of the most useless elites in PvE (it's not even popular in PvP, go figure).  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 09:17, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * ... and this is the sort of closed-down mindset that rules Guild Wars, and made everyone think Searing Flames was the best way to deal damage in PvE for the longest time... Moloch 09:19, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * So how does knocking down the MoP'd target stop other stuff from scattering? - PANIC!  [[Image:Panic_sig4.png|50px|18px]]  sexiness!  09:21, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * It doesn't stop other foes from scattering (unless those are too under the hex and struck), but it stops the marked target from fleeing the mob centre (which is something that happens with some regularity.) Moloch 10:08, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

Stop being stubborn, if you don't want to adapt to the, probably more expirienced then you, rest, then don't get on wiki's. Brandnew.  09:13, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Oh, actually, I'm quite enjoying the discussion, thank you. Moloch 09:19, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

Just think outside of the box. This has provided an easy solution to stop the scatter from MoP Nuker i for one would use the damn thing. If you think Microing your hero bars is not bad or is effortless, then the more time you spend on they're bars the less you spend on yours. This means less Damage & effectiveness (Being a MoP Nuker)
 * The foe with MoP also gets WN (that's how heroes work) so everything that's getting damage will still be able to scatter.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 09:56, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I am on Moloch's side here, most regularly the MoPed target will run one of the mob as soon as it was hexed at which point it is getting a KD untill other mobs start to scatter e.g. two seconds in hose two seconds you can kill with MoP. --Tiger   grrr!!  12:38, 9 June 2008 (EDT)