Archive talk:D/N Arcane Orders Dervish

I was surprised to not see this build on the wiki, so here it is. --Mala 13:47, 4 January 2008 (EST)
 * And I have to say fears of Wizardboy's build purging runs pushing this off RC real quick came true. --Mala[[Image:Mala_sig_Mind_Blast.jpg|19px]] 14:02, 4 January 2008 (EST)
 * Bring Up My Pbuild. --Mala[[Image:Mala_sig_Mind_Blast.jpg|19px]] 17:34, 7 January 2008 (EST)
 * Wtb attention --Mala[[Image:Mala_sig_Mind_Blast.jpg|19px]] 17:35, 14 January 2008 (EST)
 * Will be testing this on a hero in the coming week Zubey 11:15, 18 January 2008 (EST)

So far, heros seem to use this build well. Ideally, you want a warrior/paragon-heavy group, because the added adrenaline is pretty considerable. Zubey 14:37, 22 January 2008 (EST)
 * Yeah, I run it when I play a paragon and bring this with 2 hero paras... I think I take some war henchies too. :p Btw if anyone sees this is it good to go into testing? I don't want it to die as abandoned, lol. --Mala[[Image:Mala_sig_Mind_Blast.jpg|19px]] 12:34, 23 January 2008 (EST)
 * I'd give it a positive vote. Zubey 18:03, 23 January 2008 (EST)

Not very gud for heroes, they aren't smart with arcane. Decent for humans but in PvE you don't need a sturdy orders like this, this is more pvp tbh. Swiftslash \\  (contributions  * sandbox ) 11:52, 28 January 2008 (EST)


 * Err.. Why would I waste my elite when I just could use Masochism for energy management? --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  15:12, 28 January 2008 (EST)
 * Because this has hax party healing. And about heroes, I never notice them without energy. I dunno, its just something I've seen around, and I use it. If you were gonna take it as a flagger, I don't suppose you'd have to change much (just add featherfoot or something) --Mala[[Image:Mala_sig_Mind_Blast.jpg|19px]] 15:20, 28 January 2008 (EST)

Mirror of Disenchantment isn't a counter. The orders go right back up in five seconds. Kabu To 15:22, 28 January 2008 (EST)


 * Then go N/D with Masochism and Mystic Healing. Although we already have one, I thought. --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  15:43, 28 January 2008 (EST)
 * You do kinda have a point there. --Mala[[Image:Mala_sig_Mind_Blast.jpg|19px]] 15:54, 28 January 2008 (EST)

wow... i've never seen a dervish like this. Good build, the heroes seem to be taking to it well xD BalthazarsChampion 10:56, 8 February 2008 (EST)

Heh, I forgot about this (again lolz). Anyway, Shadowsin, I'd like you to revote after fully reading the skills, Dark Aura is not on the bar. Oh and the purpose of the build, it's orders with party healing (and self healing, it sacs), enchants also fuelling arcane zeal and mystic healing.--Mala 13:29, 8 February 2008 (EST)


 * ...Or you could just bring Masochism. Do Masochism+BiP and you get a net energy gain. Not some worthless elite that sucks all around. --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  10:07, 9 February 2008 (EST)
 * Except for the fact that you can't use BiP on yourself, so there is no energy gain at all.BigBlueFoot 21:49, November 6, 2009 (UTC)

This is one of the best H/H bars in the game when combined with any sort of SY spammer be it Paragon or Warrior. The party healing combined with the defense Dark Fury adds make for an enormous defense, with two Hench monks and a physical orientated team you should be able to vanquish virtually anything. Teutonic 18:53, 10 February 2008 (EST)


 * No offense, but this sucks. Go run a Necromancer with Masochism and save your bad primary profession choice and your elite. --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  17:21, 11 February 2008 (EST)
 * Masochism is not going provide the same energy management as Mysticism + Arcane Zeal. Soul Reaping is banking on the fact that stuff is dying, and simply put if stuff is dying then that means I'm either winning or wiping. For extended fights in hard mode I would never want to rely on Soul Reaping to keep my physicals pumping out damage. The D/N heals itself and the party, maintains its energy without any assistance for any period of time, never dies (Faithful + Watchful Intervention buffer), and has access to the Windwalker's Insignia which is basically +20 AL on this character. I also find it hard to believe you would call Arcane Zeal a bad elite while endorsing the usage of Blood is Power, a skill reserved for bad players in PuGs who can't be bothered to learn energy management. Racthoh 11:35, 15 February 2008 (EST)

I like how everyone who has tested it rated it 4+ and everyone who hasn't rated it under .5. It shouldn't be a requirement to test (and it isn't) but when there's this big of a gap you have to wonder if either every high poster is an idiot or every low poster is ignorant. Shadowsin didn't even post a reason in his vote. Teutonic 08:03, 12 February 2008 (EST)


 * Because any person would relize they could buff up the Order with more power AND save their elite slot with Masochism. You don't need energy overload on this, and usually, Soul Reaping + Masochism can be just as good energy. A N/D does a better job, and you could be actually more useful with BiP. --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  09:28, 16 February 2008 (EST)
 * I notice how you cunningly ignored Racthoh's response. --Mala[[Image:Mala_sig_Mind_Blast.jpg|19px]] 10:31, 16 February 2008 (EST)

'''WARNING WILL ROBINSON! COMMENT BREAKDOWN! WARNING!'''

Masochism is not going provide the same energy management as Mysticism + Arcane Zeal: about 4-5 energy gain is about the same as AZ.

Soul Reaping is banking on the fact that stuff is dying, and simply put if stuff is dying then that means I'm either winning or wiping.: It's PvE. Stuff ALWAYS dies. Anyway, SoLS and Masochism are there.

For extended fights in hard mode I would never want to rely on Soul Reaping to keep my physicals pumping out damage.: Again, Masochism and SoLS.

The D/N heals itself and the party, maintains its energy without any assistance for any period of time, never dies (Faithful + Watchful Intervention buffer), and has access to the Windwalker's Insignia which is basically +20 AL on this character.: I doubt you'll run into the frontlines and take the damage. You don't need higher armor. You can use a N/D profession combo to provide the same heals as they, minus the crappy Mysticism ones.

I also find it hard to believe you would call Arcane Zeal a bad elite while endorsing the usage of Blood is Power, a skill reserved for bad players in PuGs who can't be bothered to learn energy management.: Wow, you apparently have NEVER heard of the power of BiP. Monks won't always be able to keep full energy, and a BiP ALWAYS helps. Lrn2playPvE.

How's that for ignoring his comment? -- Guild of  Deals  17:32, 28 February 2008 (EST)

Thing is just OoV or BiP alone will support the party about as much as this heals for (OoV keeps attackers healthy and BiP keeps monks blue bars healthy). This can't run 16 (or more) blood nor support better (or at least not alot better) than a N/D so there is no point to pick this. Swiftslash \\  (contributions  * sandbox ) 17:39, 28 February 2008 (EST)
 * BiP = me being a happy-ass monk. And when I'm a happy-ass monk, you don't die.  Unless you suck.
 * But the point of this build is how well it combos with SY. When I run this on a hero while I'm on my imbagon, half the time I don't even need a primary monk. --71.229 17:42, 28 February 2008 (EST)

[build prof=Necro/Dervish Blood=12+1+3 Wind=10 Soul=8+3][Order of the Vampire][Blood Renewal][Blood Ritual][Awaken the Blood][Mystic Healing][Vow of Piety][Masochism][Sunspear Rebirth Signet][/build]


 * You lose 1 pt out of wind but you gain more healing (from OoV) and BR. This is basicly better IMO. Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] (contributions  * sandbox ) 17:46, 28 February 2008 (EST)
 * No Dark Fury makes me a sad panda. --71.229 17:47, 28 February 2008 (EST)
 * Kill res. Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] (contributions  * sandbox ) 17:49, 28 February 2008 (EST)
 * Anyway, Dark Fury is pretty meh. I'd run this:

[build prof=Necro/Dervish Blood=12+1+3 Wind=10 Soul=8+3][Blood is Power][Order of Pain][Dark Fury][Blood Renewal][Mystic Healing][Vow of Piety][Masochism][Resurrection Signet][/build]

Yay, Dark Fury. -- Guild of  Deals  17:51, 28 February 2008 (EST)
 * After running a non-dervish orders hero for the first time I realised they die a lot more. That bar has much less survivability. OoV is nice but means you can't have fury; BiP is also nice but it's a huge sac and while heroes know how much energy you have they can be pretty fickle about using it, and then sometimes almost kill themselves. You refer to SoLS in your wall of text, that means you won't be flagging the guy back to far - mobs, especially in HM, can go for your squishies (and will with a low health guy like you recommend) and armour is good. PvE = stuff always dies? Try taking a primary necro into slavers and see how long his energy lasts- those huge mobs take a while to start dying. Masochism = AZ energy? No not really, about half. Furthermore Mysticism has this neat little trick that comes with it being a primary attribute. --Mala[[Image:Mala_sig_Mind_Blast.jpg|19px]] 15:51, 29 February 2008 (EST)

Compromise
People keep whining about this on a hero. Why not just make it a hero only build? -- Guild of  Deals  16:15, 29 February 2008 (EST)
 * No, just use the main bar because it's good. &mdash;  Skadiddly [슴Mc슴] Diddles  16:16, 29 February 2008 (EST)
 * A N/D still provides the same energy management and a more powerful elite/Blood Magic. --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  17:29, 29 February 2008 (EST)
 * Yer dum. You are one of the several reasons this site sucks so much penis.  —ǥrɩɳsɧƴ ɖɩđđɭɘş  [[Image:Grinshpon blinky cake.gif|19px]] 19:57, 29 February 2008 (EST)
 * Manymanymany ppl think builds suck for the elite they have. whether the use of it is good or not [[Image:Styxx_HL.jpg|19px]] Frans  15:08, 1 March 2008 (EST)

I much prefer this over the Necro due to armor, get windwalkers on this hero or person and you have a 90 armor character at max enchants. Plus energy is very high. The only thing I do not use is Touch due to the hero running up to frontline and sitting there after sac'ing. I take Imbue Health. (71.82.137.61 00:44, 11 March 2008 (EDT))

BTW
This with a HB Monk w/ Dwayna's Kiss=pwnage. -- Guild of  Deals  12:32, 2 March 2008 (EST)
 * It pretty much keeps itself alive but ok. --Mala[[Image:Mala_sig_Mind_Blast.jpg|19px]] 14:20, 2 March 2008 (EST)
 * I mean in general. I've gotten about 200-400 point heals on any party member with this and my HB Monk. --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  14:23, 2 March 2008 (EST)
 * oic, yeah, I guess it should add 100pts under Hboon, with both orders up. Pretty nice. --Mala[[Image:Mala_sig_Mind_Blast.jpg|19px]] 16:13, 2 March 2008 (EST)

I've had no problems with it even with the heroes not casting watchful intervention on themselves in the beginning. Great Build for my Kahmu. Palin Oni 07:56, 8 March 2008 (EST)Palin Oni I used this build (without Dark Fury and res sig instead) in a sway mod instead of one of the spike trappers, and it pwned.

No Proph
Any suggestions as to what to replace Dark Fury with if you only have Factions and NF? Daeren 18:23, 3 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Ressig, imbue health, BR, Blood bond (or w/e) Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] (contributions  * sandbox ) 11:38, 4 April 2008 (EDT)
 * If you can't get Dark Fury then I'd probably run OoV over this. -- Mala [[Image:MalasigMagebane_Shot.jpg]] 18:34, 6 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Osht OoV is proph too... -- Mala [[Image:MalasigMagebane_Shot.jpg]] 10:32, 7 April 2008 (EDT)

Hero
Do heroes actually spam all the required skills like arcane zeal and both orders or do u have to make them use them? i need to figure this out b4 i raise melonni 9 levels for this. TY for helpKlomi 01:31, 5 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Yes. -- Mala [[Image:MalasigMagebane_Shot.jpg]] 18:34, 6 April 2008 (EDT)

And would this work with a wand/focus combo for heroes, or will they only cast with staff?
 * im sure it would work with wand/focus but you cant get enchant mods on them 68.54.150.61 18:19, 7 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Exactly, so it would be best to take a Staff Enchanting, anyway. ــмıкε  нaшк  18:21, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

Demonic Flesh+Imbue Health = win?
 ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ  16:05, 12 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Demonic Flesh + 2x17% sac - powerheals = lose? Drag nmn   talk cont  16:18, 12 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Not really, no.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 16:30, 12 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Expected that, need quite large heals... nvm then I guess. Drag nmn   talk cont  16:38, 12 April 2008 (EDT)

Well of blood
which skill should be taken out for well of blood if u wanted to take it? it is great regen support if alot of peopel are in itKlomi 23:24, 2 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Probably Dwayna's Touch 76.185.168.84 18:37, 3 May 2008 (EDT)

Scythe
How about higer runes, 9 Sycthe Mastery and dealing some more physical damage too? Is it a good idea (at least for NM)?reanor 12:49, 6 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Attribute split would be too painful and you should be casting the majority of the time anyway. --71.229 12:52, 6 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Not to mention putting your orders on the frontlines is lol. -- Mala [[Image:MalasigMagebane_Shot.jpg]] 13:17, 6 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Meh, you should have a Blood Magic Staff of Enchanting. Which makes me think, why does the Equipment say "any weapon"? You shouldn't be using a Scythe and getting into Melee combat with this...71.54.232.9 07:58, 17 May 2008 (EDT)
 * My Dervish hero didn't complain.[[Image:User Ereanor sig.jpg]]reanor 13:10, 17 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Still, this is practically a spam build. You'll spend almost all the time maintaining and recasting enchantments. Doing that while occasionally hitting with a Scythe limits your bar (removing an enchantment can hurt energy) and makes you more vulnerable to interrupts or from getting killed when saccing health. --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  13:33, 17 May 2008 (EDT)

NO. – Ichigo 724  16:42, 17 May 2008 (EDT)

Vanahk's staff?
You recommend Vanahk's staff, but you also say that 20% enchantment mod should be used. As far as i know, Vanahk's staff does not have +20% enchantment...so what should you use?82.72.233.33 13:41, 26 May 2008 (EDT)
 * That's just if you're lazy and don't want to customize a staff with mods. If you're not that person, you'd take a +20% enchant mod instead of +30 health. -Shen 13:43, 26 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Ok thanks. I have the staff(found it by accident) so i thought is it really worth searching another good blood magic staff if I already got the one recommended...I guess ill just stick to Vanahk's staff then...82.72.233.33 09:20, 27 May 2008 (EDT)\

I would definitely use something with a +20% due to this build being so enchant heavy. I actually had the upgrades for a blood staff that I made 20/40 20% which was perfect for this. The only other option I used was a staff with a +1 Blood for the chance of a stronger OoP. I dont like the + health mod since the character sits and sacs health constantly which equals larger sacs with more health.(Mr Pink57 00:59, 5 June 2008 (EDT))
 * I'd use vanahks. The enchants in this build either last 3 years or 3 seconds, figuratively. The only enchant that would actually benefit from an enchanting mod is vow of piety, and recasting that is no problem at all (because it recasts instantly). The ones that don't last forever are really short, so enchant mod adds like 1-2 seconds. Vanahk's is definitely a better choice, although if you got an enchanting with hsr blood it wouldn't be too bad either. - Auron 23:03, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Eh? An enchanting is infinitely more useful on orders. lasting a second longer seconds every time is convenient. – Ichigo 724 [[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 23:13, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 * If the derv has a 20% enchanting mod and you use orders, do the orders last longer on all party members, or just on those that have enchantments last longer mods? -- Jurbadis, 23 December 2008

Symbiosis
Why is that a counter if it gives you loads of extra hp? Liquid Ice 10:53, 29 June 2008 (EDT)


 * Massive sac is hard to heal --84.24.206.123 10:53, 29 June 2008 (EDT)

Anyone Know??
does any1 know if the orders affect minions b/c if so i want to run this in a Sabway team with this in place of the SS Leon The Dominator
 * Minions are counted as allies and orders only affect party members, so barring bugs they don't. --71.229 12:20, 10 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Ok tyvm little dissapionted though o well Leon The Dominator
 * I think what you're looking for is Order of Undeath. We've got one or two builds using that Elite here. ــмıкε  нaшк  13:25, 10 July 2008 (EDT)

Quite Nice
Running it right now on my Dervish. Works excellent..Extra damage..Regular heals...You never run out of energy (works best in combination if you bring monks that have skills such as Patient Spirit, Reversal of Fortune). Trying to figure out what to replace Dark Fury with though..for non-adrenaline groups...I can't waste a skill slot. 77.52.89.149 12:41, 10 August 2008 (EDT)
 * ...........sunspear rebirth sig. – Ichigo 724 [[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 12:42, 10 August 2008 (EDT)

Variations
lets say if u were using it with sins or dervs or something so dark fury is pointless, would it be good to use OoV instead and replace dark fury with extend enchantments? -  Land of the Free  03:37, 21 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Not on a D/N, they wouldn't have the energy for it. You'd also have to replace both Dark Fury and OoP because OotV doesn't work with other necro enchantments. Extend Enchantments also only affects the person who is affected by it. If you don't need Dark Fury, I suggest you run a Necro Primary, tbh. ــмıкε  нaшк  11:38, 21 August 2008 (EDT)

Possible variants for hero...
How about Featherfoot Grace or Rending Aura instead of Dwayna's Touch for heros?
 * why?
 * also sign ur comments.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized   I frenzy-healsig.  21:16, 23 December 2008 (EST)
 * also sign ur comments.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized   I frenzy-healsig.  21:16, 23 December 2008 (EST)

Vow of Piety
...got changed and no longer works with the build. In fact it might have nerfed or broken the build somewhat :/ &mdash; Poki#3, 17:30, 7 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Who cares? It still does its job more than well enough. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] {&#123;Bacon}} 20:28, 7 August 2009 (UTC)


 * What do you mean it no longer works with the build? Infinite armor boost/health regen on a healer type is pretty pro.  You lose some of your healing, but it pales in comparison to the benefit provided by the new Vow of Piety.  [[Image:Benjammn311Sig5.png]] 15:38, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think Mending-like healing will help that much. Granted it does renew itself all the time and +armor is always nice, but on the other hand it's not a stance and does not synergise with Mystic Healing anymore. I'm not saying the skill is bad, and I don't really see any good replacements for it, but maybe someone has some better idea. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 15:29, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Mysticism 10 + 1 + 1
Can't get Mysticism 10 +1 +1 if hero is using a blood staff, would have to use rune of major mysticism +2 and lose the health. 98.23.140.108 05:51, September 2, 2009 (UTC)
 * Headgear + rune. Fail. [[Image:Zyke-Sig.png]] 06:01, September 2, 2009 (UTC)

LOL, and ty for making this build, makes my imbagon happy :)68.227.202.180 23:27, September 23, 2009 (UTC)

Cultist's Fervor
A lot less maintenance and has the same amount of energy saving on orders as Arcane, I think it is better, maybe make optional? --Frosty  11:14, October 16, 2009 (UTC)

ah...... no. just a no. its like a dwarf assasin(lol, or if u play lotro, a hobbit lore-master). just no.Bluetapeboy 16:31, November 2, 2009 (UTC)
 * Cultist's seems like it'd just put unnecessary pressure on your healers. I think this works fine as it is. Ben ..Squint  22:08, November 6, 2009 (UTC)
 * SIX HEALTH PER SECOND, SOMEBODY CALL THE FIRE BRIGADE.  Thomas   So   Dutch  22:10, November 6, 2009 (UTC)
 * Not the health per second that's the issue (mysticism basically handles that), it's the constant condition removal because heroes are idiots. Ben <font color ="Cyan">..Squint  22:21, November 6, 2009 (UTC)

Update
Vow of Piety isnt really necessary and dark fury is isnt necessary with sins or dervs. watchful intervention is pretty pointless, u have to micro it and its just going to be a drain on energy. The derv will only have 2-3 enchantments on at any time and he runs out of energy. needs vital boon or better than watchful intervention atleast--Relyk 06:27, November 22, 2009 (UTC)

Blood Magic update
This could probably use a new mainbar now. I'd work on one but I have to finish update tagging Obflesh and 600/smite teams. <font face="Courier New" color="Black">Toraen <font face="Courier New" color="DarkGoldenrod">TheJanitor 03:56, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * On my hero, I took out Vow of Piety for Blood Bond, though Mark of Fury could probably work too. --[[Image:Jimp.jpg|19px]] <font color="#00aaff">WhiteAsIce 11:16, February 28, 2010 (UTC)

Usage Section
why? I mean you dont explain a hero how to use its build--GWPirate 11:27, February 28, 2010 (UTC)

Archive or Rework
This will only really maintain 4 enchantments on itself (i.e. Faithful Intervention, Arcane Zeal, OoP and DF), and you can't expect this to heal itself with Dwayna's Touch before your Monk, Rit or N/Rt heals it. Watchful Intervention also won't be useful often because your backline should heal before anything hits 25%. [build prof=D/N BloodMagic=11 Mysticism=10+1+1 EarthPrayers=10+1][Arcane Zeal][Order of Pain][Dark Fury][Mystic Regeneration][Vital Boon][Signet of Pious Light][Imbue Health][Faithful Intervention][/build]

I have no clue how Heroes will perform with this, but I think the earlier versions of this build looked a bit like it. Mystic Healing has potential, but there aren't enough Enchantments in Blood Magic, Mysticism and Wind Prayers, so you'd need a Team that uses plenty of Enchantments to make full use of it. ــѕт. мıкε  22:29, April 5, 2010 (UTC)

could also use the elite Pious Renewal instead, same output as before but delayed and no worries about stripping (as that would only help slightly in fact). this poster would mix earth and wind prayer skills even though that lowers the strength but Vow of piety is just perminant armor and regen using Pious renewal with a hero...free energy even... 96.13.31.186 22:23, 12 December 2010 (UTC)