Build talk:Team - 7 Hero Keystone Discordway

Build Name
Perhaps someone else will come up with a better build name for this. It's basically an alteration (to avoid bluntly saying improvement, as the old builds may suit someone else's playing style more than these) of the old backline hybrid necromancer discordway, but so different from it that I thought a new team build to be justified. --Krschkr (talk) 16:16, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Comment
"The necromancer with animate bone minions possesses "fall back!", so if he falls behind he and his minions should be able to close or tighten the gap." I haven't looked over the build that much, however I do have a comment about this. I have very recently started just flagging my heroes (party flag is macroed to f5 and cancel party flag is f6) when they should start moving so the MM doesn't fall behind. Even so, Fall Back! is good to have for the MM anyway--counteracts minion degen.--- IGN: Saxazax I (capital i) or Saxazax I I - (talk) 04:47, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

General Issues
the real issue is that he or she will be using Blood of the Master instead of Discord. Like I said, if your hero's job is to spam skills (like Discord or rupting signets) then he or she needs powerful skills with a long recharge, or instant-cast skills (like shouts). Having a 2-second activation time skill with no recharge time means he or she is casting Death Nova, not Discord. And this is still an issue with the Keystone Mesmers--they will be making minions while they are supposed to be interrupting. i think bringing unnatural signet is fine--even though it is not a rupt (which means that a hero will not use it to interrupt a foe's skill, which would trigger the AoE interrupt effect from Keystone Signet), the "trigger" for a hero to use Unnatural Signet is a foe being enchanted or hexed. So he or she will still use it for decent AoE damage, so that is fine. In terms of Shatter Hex, I don't see why you necessarily should bring it; I mean, it is a lot of damage, but there are other skills (like Cry of Frustration) that do damage and have a useful effect. But I would say, bring another signet instead of a spell since your build is all about signets (and your heroes' armor will increase by +3 for the extra signet on your bar). can you upload a video of you using the build with the proper equipment and runes? and what area did you test it in? I don't think you should bring Arcane Conundrum--even though it is an AoE hex, it is listed under unusual hero behavior on the GWW: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Hero_behavior/Unexpected_behavior#Misused_skills. Only bringing 4 hexes will be no bueno for areas with lots of hex removal. You said this build struggles in DoA, UW, and Slaver's Exile. If you are making this more for fast NM Mission clearing, then that's fine I guess. But in HM maybe it does struggle because its damage is being cut by not having enough hexes to trigger Discord. Post some hex-heavy player builds on the page and link to the any/A assassin's paradox build.--- IGN: Saxazax I (capital i) or Saxazax I I - (talk) 01:48, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
 * 2nd Discord MM has Blood of the Master but no minions
 * I don't think the Keystone Mesmers should have 5sec recharge minion skills--they will not be free to use their signets if they are casting minion spells for 1.5 sec, which is their job.
 * I think you could dedicate just 1 hero to have death nova, and then a bunch of either powerful, long-recharge skills, or shouts, so he or she can just spam death nova. But that would require a rework. But yeah your keystones are your midline, and if one is casting Animate while the other is putting Death Nova on a minion while they are supposed to be rupting Invoke, not good.
 * If you're bringing Discord, you need more hexes--this build has only 4 hexes in total--unless you run Assassins Paradox.--- IGN: Saxazax I (capital i) or Saxazax I I - (talk) 14:17, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Blood of the master heals all minions of all your party members. That's the reason why the necromancer without minions is running it. In the rare case that the hero kills himself with masochism no minions turn masterless. The casting time of the spells on those keystone mesmers is not an issue. Making minions builds a meat wall between you and your foes; they will love to attack the low level minions first, giving your whole team more time to cast spells on them in the meanwhile. Or do you not bring skills like unnatural signet and shatter hex on your domination mesmers because while casting them they can't rupt? ;)
 * You can alternate the build if you want to, but I found it most useful to have both minions and death nova on both heroes. Hexes are few, but sufficient. Blood bond and arcane conundrum are medium length AoE hexes, allowing you to use discord on multiple foes. If you experience the amount of hexes as too low for the 2/3 discords, consider replacing the ineptitude mesmer with fevered dreams with fragility – or play that yourself. --Krschkr (talk) 14:39, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Ok--Blood of the Master heals all minions in party, I didn't know that.
 * Bringing skills that trigger upon minion death as well as skills that keep minions alive--death nova/blood of master--is like shooting yourself in the foot. "Blood of the master heals all minions of all your party members. That's the reason why the necromancer without minions is running it."
 * "do you not bring skills like unnatural signet and shatter hex on your domination mesmers because while casting them they can't rupt?"
 * "I found it most useful to have both minions and death nova on both heroes. Hexes are few, but sufficient"
 * "Blood bond and arcane conundrum are medium length AoE hexes, allowing you to use discord on multiple foes. If you experience the amount of hexes as too low for the 2/3 discords, consider replacing the ineptitude mesmer with fevered dreams with fragility – or play that yourself."
 * You can find a video in the section "exemplary video". Arcane Conundrum being used imperfect is no issue, it's rather advantageous for this team build and in general at least helps the hero with his energy. A team build not destroying elite areas when it is not designed to do that does not mean it is bad, neither does it mean that it is a normal mode build. I don't play normal mode at all and don't make builds for it. The build does not struggle in hard mode. --Krschkr (talk) 13:37, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm watching the video and I'm thinking to myself, the only reason to roll a Mes is for the Fast Casting on Death Nova--Necros already have a -25cast insignia for "animate" skills. So even though a Mes would cast those spells 25% faster, a Necro has better energy management, +8 attribute levels with a superior death headpiece and Masochism, and better energy management to boot. I think that the concept of putting Death skills on a Keystone mes is a waste because if you're going to put 12 attribute points in a specialization, at least half your bar should be from that specialization. As a general rule, the way I usually configure my bars is: 6 points in an attribute = 1 skill on the bar; 8 points = 2 skills, 10 points = 3 skills; 12 points = half the bar. This would not be an issue if your Mes was running a different elite, but because there are no Death Magic Signets, you're better off either using a different elite from Fast Casting like Psychic Instability and keeping Death Nova, and bringing Putrid Bile, Deathly Swarm, or other skills from Death Magic, or simply using other skills entirely that have a long cast time. Or, you could lower the attribute points in Death Magic and make them like this:

[build prof=Mesmer/Necromancer FastCast=10+1+3 DominationMagic=10+1 Inspiration=8+1 DeathMagic=8][Keystone Signet][Signet of Distraction][Signet of Disruption][Signet of Weariness][Unnatural Signet][Mantra of Signets][Leech Signet][Death Nova][/build]
 * Keep in mind that the Poison duration does not decrease with lower attributes.--- IGN: Saxazax I (capital i) or Saxazax I I - (talk) 17:38, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Little confused about the Keystones
Why have mesmer variants when the Keystones are in the name of the build? ESurge should be the default anyway, as their damage is more consistent and has a larger area. If you still want the Keystone, why not use SoLS and Unnatural instead of Distraction and Weariness? SoLS has an 8 second recharge and will heal the hero, Unnatural shouldn't need an explanation, Distraction has 15 second recharge, disables a skill for a little while (who cares about that in PvE), and Weariness is just bad; 30 second recharge, energy loss (doesn't matter in PvE), and applies weariness to a target you are trying to spike down. Iamjacks longassname  20:44, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
 * The mesmer variants are for the ineptitude mesmer, not the keystone mesmers (although with some tweaking you could probably replace one of the keystone mesmers). Signet of Weariness serves as another condition source because heroes are really lazy with enfeebling blood, the interruption signets are there to interrupt targets (obviously) other than with random rupts next to the signet target. If you took more rupts on the third mesmer it would make sense to replace some interrupt signets with unnatural signet and signet of lost souls. --Krschkr (talk) 22:13, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Two players
If you had both a human Mesmer and Necro player, is there anything particularly spicy you could put together here? And if so what hero to drop? Ruscur (talk) 05:36, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I'd give the discord heroes to the necromancer player. The mesmer player either replaces one of the keystone mesmers (add shambling horror on the minionless necromancer hero) or the already variable non-keystone mesmer hero. Players can easily achieve much with ineptitude, so that's my recommendation. However, depending on the area, other elite skills may be superior. Fevered dreams will provide good caster shutdown and additional condition spread (especially dazed and deep wound, of course). Panic good general shutdown. Mind wrack/energy surge/spiritual pain builds would be the ideal choice for joining the discords' target spiking. --Krschkr (talk) 10:45, 8 April 2019 (UTC)