User talk:Rask/Complain Here

hi
Multiple Esurge IS a spike. I don't understand your rating on trip mes. Binding Chains is the only snare you need when you're balling and Inept is utility vs melee. Soi Sticker 21:08, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
 * When you have 3 mesmers ECHOING IT, it is a spike. In this case it's a poor attempt at AoE damage and a mostly useless hero/heroes. With that being said, I believe I mentioned I'd change my vote if this simple fact was addressed, so what's the problem here? RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  21:48, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
 * A spike is a burst of damage at one moment... If you echo Esurge, you've got to cast it twice which takes twice as long. Bad spike when you can use your other skills and not waste 25e. Soi Sticker 21:53, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I would explain why you're wrong, but I'll wait for someone else to jump in on this one.  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  21:54, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
 * So nothing is a spike unless it's 3 mesmers? The team has damage coming from multiple sources not just dom mesmers. 78.149.38.53 21:58, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
 * is e-surge a viable spike in pve anyway? i mean, i know before they nerfed HM armor is was decent damage, but with it's shit recharge and armor no longer a concern why in the flying fuck would you take e-surge over pretty much anything? Danny 22:19, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
 * @IP Wasting a slot on an Esurge just because you have plenty of other damage is a shit arguement. @Danny Esurge was fine on player spikes, on heroes it was always subpar, there is just a huge fanboy issue with the skill.  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  22:24, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
 * You misunderstand. You were saying 2 E-Surges doesn't make up a spike. I was saying that there is more to the spike than the 2 E-Surges. E-Surge is still good though, it's not like everything has 60 AL now. Armor ignoring skills are still better than armor respecting ones and remember the recharge is much shorter with pve fast casting. The main thing about E Surge that makes people like it is the fact that unlike 90% of mesmer dps skills it has no req. 78.149.38.53 22:31, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Simple misunderstanding. I'm talking about the build as a whole, you and danny brought the elite skill into the spotlight when in reality it's the entire bar that's supbar, it's elite being one of the reasons.  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  22:55, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Looks like a standard E-Surge bar with fall back added. 78.149.38.53 23:06, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Implying standard E-Surge isn't subpar :P  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  23:11, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Seeing as it's meta I think the burden of proof is on you currently. 78.149.38.53 23:19, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Flawless logic, I bet you got an A in geography.  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  23:24, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Ironic. I went and copied this from wikipedia. "When debating any issue, there is an implicit burden of proof on the person asserting a claim. This burden does not necessarily require a mathematical or strictly logical proof, although many strong arguments do rise to this level (such as in logical syllogisms). Rather, the evidential standard required for a given claim is determined by convention or community standards, with regard to the context of the claim in question."
 * So you as the person asserting a claim need to provide evidence. Think of it this way, if I said that there is an invisible Tiger behind everyone but it's completely undetectable and I were to make this claim public I would be the one required to give evidence. I can't just turn around and say prove there aren't undetectable tigers everywhere, because I'm the one making the new claim that goes against current tiger deficient theory. 78.149.38.53 00:47, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Wait, I thought everybody saw the tigers. -- Jai .  -  00:39, February 6 2012 (UTC)
 * > claiming e-surge is meta and isn't shit.
 * where's your proof m8? Danny 02:13, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Esurge is the optimal spiking skill. The build is bad because of the random pod build and other crap. --Soi Sticker 23:50, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

P.s. I didn't post any of that shit, I just fixed Rask's last comment. IP and Relyk posted them. Soi Sticker 23:51, 5 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Anyone wanna high five me?  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  00:11, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Also, the build is bad because you have two Esurges. The curses necro is fine but elite should be optional, dual illusion > dual esurge, honestly if you want AoE damage bring something more spammable than Esurge, I'm assuming you're microing in which case arcane echo shouldn't be a problem.  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  00:13, 6 February 2012(UTC)
 * Absolutely no utility from Illusion and meagre damage. One inept is enough for anti-melee but that's all. Overall, Dom bars are better, due to AoE rupts, strong hex removal for melees, Mistrust as well as other AoE damage sources. One Illusion is optimal. And stop breaking this discussion with those fucking arrows. Soi Sticker 01:37, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Aren't Clumsiness and Wandering Eye in Illusion Magic? I'm pretty sure both of those are fucking wonderful in PvE, or at least they were when I played. Danny 02:13, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * They're reactive, can't stack and can't be used to spike with. That's why one is better than two. Forget that they interrupt, because there are better skills for that. Soi Sticker 02:29, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * "reactive" is a bit of a stretch in pve for those skills. just about every mob c-spaces, so it's generally dealing damage as soon as it's cast. also, since when is anything other than discord even remotely useful in spiking in pve? Danny 02:31, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Discord is shit because of it's attribute. They cspace but it doesn't spike because multiple copies won't stack, nor does it rupt essential spells. The damage can be slightly higher in perfect circumstances, but Inept is Adjacent range and Clumsiness damage is meh+energy. FoC, MoP, esurge, etc. Soi Sticker 03:56, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * What we've learned from this conversation my dear Danny, is that soi sticket is inept when it comes to pve. In his gw private server (that he hosts on NASA's computer) illusion spells don't do 100+ AoE damage and provide spammable deep wound.  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  05:47, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Deep Wound doesn't stack either, derp. I said one illusion is fine, two is surplus and doesn't stack as well as Dom. Soi Sticker 05:53, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, you've successfully made it clear that you're too dumb for this conversation to continue. Seriously. You're ignoring basic logic, among other things. I'm not going to waste time with the obvious refutations. Danny 05:54, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * You're being trolled because Rask can't be bothered to tell you exactly how wrong you are (and Danny's just playing circlejerk). -- Jai .  -  06:00, February 6 2012 (UTC)
 * I like the honest approach.  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  06:02, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't know if you're talking to Rask or myself, considering the fail indenting... I guess this ends here since neither of you wish to use any amount of logic to explain why what you think is correct. It's a shame but I would like you to be able to backup your claims that dual-Illusion>Dom+Illu. Soi Sticker 06:09, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * You're not going to get a serious argument out of rask. This discussion seems to be about two different things anyways.-- Relyk 06:19, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Simple Math
The Ineptitude build has 5 damage dealing skills that are (and should almost always be) mainbar. Those are: Ineptitude(135), Clumsiness(92), Signet Of Clumsiness(60), Wandering Eye(110), and Accumulated Pain(175). Accumulated pain does 75 damage + a 20 second deep wound. It has a recharge of 12 seconds, so with 11 FC it's pretty fucking spammable. NOW, I'm going to be a saint and give you the benefit of the doubt. Heroes do not stack hexes, however enemy AI is bugged and they will always try to finish attacking if interupted mid-attack. This includes casters. The only exception is when they are healing/supporting an ally or themselves. So it's safe to say with 2 illusion mesmers you'll get a Minimum of 700 damage out (AoE if you're good at balling). (Max damage output is 1144)

The Esurge build has 3 damage dealing skills that are mainbar: Energy Surge(90), Mistrust(100), Cry of Frustration(75). So arguing in YOUR favor, we'll assume all of your skills go off in a chain twice (once per hero) and deal max damage. That's a MAXIMUM of 530 damage.

Make no mistake, domination definitely has it's place in the build, it has plenty of caster-hate. Running 2 domination heroes just seems really silly when you could A. Run arcane echo on ONE Esurge. B. Just take a panic and have a dedicated caster-hate character. Arguing that Esurge is fine doesn't change the fact that illusion pushes out TONS of damage, spammable deep wound AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND has the benefit of shutting down martial classes pretty much passively.

I received tons of bitching for not writing out my argument so there you go, now I need to get back to work rushing accounts for moneys.  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  06:41, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * >comparing 5 skills against 3.
 * >not counting energy cost, cast time or recharge.
 * >unfinished argument is unfinished. I'll leave it with you. Soi Sticker 06:51, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * So my builds are bad because they're more streamlined and have infinite energy? I don't see your argument man. Mesmers never have energy problems. It's like you're calling me a cheater for not being an autist.  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  06:55, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Soi said none of that, don't go all red herring on us. You forgot about unnatural signet. Spiritual Pain provides similar damage and function, and that's keeping in mind Accumulated Pain gives DW but requires the 2 hexes. Illusion magic has similar cast time and recharge; they burn through energy faster to pump more damage, which only becomes a problem if the battle takes too long.-- Relyk 07:16, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Firstly, your Illusion Mesmer is going to have energy trouble spamming Clumsiness and Ineptitude, while a second copy of Accumulated Pain is downright inferior to Spiritual Pain. They both deal the same damage, only Spiritual Pain is 1s cast and 7s cooldown (2,3333s@11 FC) while AP is 2s cast and 12s cooldown (6,9s @11FC) meaning, even one copy of AP getting DW off, SP beats it in damage only after 2 seconds. Are we discussing spikes still, or whole builds now? You cannot use AP in a spike as you need to lead with two hexes and, if what you say about AI is true, Clums/Inept/WE will trigger before AP is cast. As I have said time and time again, 'one Illusion Mesmer is a great addition to any team', but any more than that and you're losing out on AoE range, better energy management and utility skills. That is all. Soi Sticker 08:10, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * You can keep making excuses and poor arguments all you want. I don't care how many times Esurge has sucked your (or Relyk's) dick. I know from years and countless grinding hours of experience that your shit is inferior. I'm not changing my vote because I think this experience counts for more than your muddled theorycrafting does. Vote isn't changing, end of conversation.  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  08:42, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

If you can't come up with real proof as to why dual illu>dual dom, I'm going to have to refer you to a butthurt form. Sorry. Soi Sticker 09:03, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm actually impressed with how dumb you are. It's not our job to show you why you're bad, just to clear that up. Some day you'll realize it. Danny 09:14, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * It's ok, one day puberty will hit him like a truck and he'll go on a rampage raping all 27 of his cats.  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  09:15, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep in mind, you have to convince us to change our votes because otherwise we can trash the shit out of anything we think is inferior. It's that simple. We don't have to prove shit. Danny 09:16, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Tbh I recently realized it's inferior to RoJway so I lowered my vote a bit.  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  09:18, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * RoJway is worse. Less damage, overkill reactive support (healing) as opposed to all those Shatter Hexes and CoF preventing mobs to cast x2, you'd rather some burning and dotaoe? foes in HM kite quite easily, you know. I still want you to use your brain to explain with REAL NUMBERS why dual illu+dom>dual dom+illu. with your cooperation, I'm sure we can make dual illusion popular. Soi Sticker 20:41, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Your font is all fucked up, no clue what you're trying to say.  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  21:07, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * You can't read logic? Balanced argument? Enquiries that require you to use an ounce of either empirical or numerical evidence with mechanics that shows your findings to be true. I think you should stop trolling and either tell me why you're right or concede that I am right. Soi Sticker 21:11, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * You're really going to try and say that a second CoF is better than Panic (also, 2x Smite Hex + 2x Smite Condition + 2x Divine Healing + Shatter Hex >> 2x Shatter Hex), that extra heals are anything but good, and (what the hell) that RoJ does LESS damage than ESurge? Are you delusional? News flash: Smite Hex and Smite Condition have the same range as CoF, and each deal about the same DPS. The heals are just an added bonus. And if scatter is an issue (which it never is, but I'll take the bait anyway), then take Binding Chains and you're set. If you're talking about anything but a melee, then RoJ is a much less desirable option, but with the ability to bodyblock foes to keep them in RoJ as well as having 14/16 spec SoH and a bunch of hex/condy removal and heals, RoJ is practically made for a melee. -- Jai .  -  00:25, February 7 2012 (UTC)
 * My coffee is too cold Ritzysig1.jpg  Mugen  Ritzy  02:36, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
 * iced coffee <3 -- Jai .  -  03:01, February 7 2012 (UTC)
 * You are about as logical as a child trying to convince an adult that he didn't take all the cookies. 78.149.38.53 09:28, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The cookies were mine in the first place, go buy your own.  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  09:30, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Besides violating PvX:ARCHIVE, is there a point to moving the conversation instead of copying it?-- Relyk 21:55, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * It's clogging up my talk page and I want it to stay somewhere special.  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  03:26, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
 * You could've waited until the build is trashed and then archive discussion up to that point (because discussion took place on your talk rather than the actual talk page) and copy the discussion to this page. Wasn't implying you need to move it to build talk space. There are various reasons for this but neither you or I give enough of a fuck.-- Relyk 05:40, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Build's been trashed, tbh. ;o Danny 06:44, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
 * sly danny, as in deleted.-- Relyk 06:58, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

I can't see my forehead without help from a reflective device
Why the fuck is it like that, Rask? Vincent Evan [Air Henchman]   17:10, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I blame the russians.  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  17:46, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Neanderthals so underpowered -- DANDY ^_^ -- 18:15, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Patrick feels the same Evan Shadow   Umbra scriptor Disputatio  18:32, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I hear indenting is fair and balanced! Vincent Evan [Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 18:40, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Anyone hear about that AP mesmer ordeal? Pvx man.  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  19:02, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Well I was born i-... Ups. -- DANDY ^_^ -- 20:06, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Dandy would you have sex with an alien?  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  20:25, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Tits are a merit. If getting raped by tentacles for two weeks straight feels good, then sure, why not. -- DANDY ^_^ -- 21:15, 24 February 2012 (UTC)