Archive talk:Team - 7 Hero Triple Energy Surge

Great Synergy skill

 * I feel like should be at least in one of those mesmers builds. Not specifically for final damage when nrg drops to 0 but for the 25 additional dmg each time there is a non hex skill. --Jilonor (talk) 08:52, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
 * The damage is only triggered when the mesmer which applied the hex uses a skill on that foe. I don't really think that it'd be worth dropping skills for mind wrack on the heroes. If it triggered for any party member, definitely. But actually the hero would have to apply mind wrack and then use four non-hex skills on the target to have dealt more extra damage than with a single use of spiritual pain. --Krschkr (talk) 14:18, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
 * right... I Missed the fact that only the caster benefits from this. The PVE version of this skill could have been way better...Regarding the other aspect of this skill, the mana pool of foes in HM might be too high to expect to ruin their energy quickly even with 3 esurge Jilonor (talk) 14:27, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
 * With some slight tweaks, such as guilt over drain enchantment (and shame if there are monk and ritualist healers) it's something that can be done. Usual energy level of HM casters: 60 (Elementalists: up to ~140). But in general I'd say it isn't worth it. I once built an entire team around energy depletion and aneurysm, but I guess it only worked because the foes in that quest had 1120 to 1360 health points and I ran an unreasonable amount of draining mesmers. In most other cases going for a more direct, less conditional damage approach sounds more reasonable to me. If that core idea is intriguing to you, check this, but as a general team build idea I'd expect energy depletion + mind wrack/aneurysm to be clearly inferior to other mesmer alternatives. --Krschkr (talk) 14:53, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I also tried to build something around nrg loss but was not so efficient. Mostly because I missread the description of Mind Wrack :/ . I will look into it again: https://gwpvx.gamepedia.com/Build:Team_-_7_Hero_Energy_Drinkers. With  you could drain energy really fast but it is a two edges blade. Would need a very low energy consumption teambuild to counter the effect on you. Jilonor (talk) 13:26, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Yep, energy denial is rather suited for PvP. Maybe one could work with some of these to drain energy with signet of weariness without a need of energy management. --Krschkr (talk) 15:43, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

"Incoming!"
Over Aura of the Lich, leaving bone fiends as the only minion in the team. A guild mate tested this a bit and it seemed quite reliable with a full fiend army alive. However, there's still a lot of testing to be done. If playing full ranged over melee/ranged minion armies proves useful and the melee minions aren't missed it'd be worth to test avatar of dwayna healers (with spirit bond) as the arbitrary third backline character. Requires plenty of additional testing. --Krschkr (talk) 16:11, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

I tried dropping Aura of the Lich for "Incoming" and having Bone Fiends as only minions and used it for several dungeons in HM and general vanquishing. The build performs well and the damage output compared to mixed melee and ranged minions is increased. However, it takes the MM a bit of time to get up 11 bone fiends because of the high mana cost, which might make the build weaker in areas with a lot of minion hate. Having no melee minions as meat shield was not an issue because most of the time the minions would lag behind anyways and could not act as meat shield. In conclusion a viable option for increased damage output and mobility. Sgyzen (talk) 09:55, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I also tested
 * as a third backline character.
 * The AI does not cast Avatar of Dwayna before entering battle on its own, which rarely results in it getting interrupted by foes and taking away the healing the character provides. In general I liked the build because it provides a good amount of partywide heal (53 HP per Dervish enchantment lost) and the character does not run out of mana in prolonged fights even without enemies dying and compared to N/Mo or N/RT has way more armour. Sgyzen (talk) 09:55, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
 * The downside of having the paragon package on the MM, especially with bone fiends that you're trying to keep alive, is that the hero ends up lagging behind casting Blood of the Master or Masochism and ends up out of earshot quite often. I wonder if there's a way to shuffle things around so this isn't a problem without having to invest into command on the mesmers Ruscur (talk) 12:48, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Chaos Storm
Could be worth it if the scattering can be contained or it helps to kill foes before they can scatter much. I'd probably replace 1-2 spiritual pains and 1-2 drain enchantments. Another guild mate tested this and said it was fairly effective. There's still a lot of testing to be done, though. --Krschkr (talk) 16:11, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Chaos storm has proven very effective in defense quests and narrow fighting areas, but for general combat which happens in open space the scattering is too annoying to justify the additional AoE damage. On a field, chaos storm is hit and miss, depending on how soon the AI starts scattering. --Krschkr (talk) 23:21, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Some variation
We should do some systematic testing which arbitrary third backline hero works best with this setup. Some builds to test:

This would add some additional offensive support (could add weaken armor too) which will usually go astray or cause scattering.

Keeps recuperation for the minions, but doesn't do anything special apart from that. Probably not worth it.

This is the odd one. It has the best minion support and keeps spirit bond, so it will either be the glorious wild card or crap. But it's certainly promising.

Healing burst hybrids have a nice balance of everything, but it doesn't support the minions at all and is probably inferior to any spirit bond build.

And the usual N/Mo vs. E/Mo debate. But there's more to consider. In areas devoid of corpses or against bosses it'd be better to replace the minion master. Ideally while keeping the paragon support skills. Some options that come to mind:

And lastly, we have to consider the option to replace the arbitrary third backline character with a defensive midline hero. Some things to try out:

A lot of options to test. Some are odd but might be better than expected. Ideally we can keep this free of mercenaries, whatever we end up with. --Krschkr (talk) 17:35, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I usually run something very similar to this setup, and I think a sos/resto also has merits as a third back line. It does respectable damage and also has additional “invisible” damage (as far as a DPS meter is concerned) with splinter weapon. However, I think there’s reason to split this page out into melee/caster like other similar team builds because a caster team just doesn’t need the additional prots that you need as a melee, and skills like shatter hex are less effective when playing without a melee in the team. I also think it would make sense to remove the default player bars as it can seem unnecessarily profession exclusive at first glance, even with the note about using a variety of builds. LifeGuardian (talk) 23:18, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Just as a side note, the melee version (while technically being mercenary-free) requires Zei-Ri - so basically almost a mercenary. Not that that is a big problem, just because you mentioned keeping the build free of mercenaries. --Haquillo (talk) 08:20, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't a second BiP instead of the second healer/prot in the caster-version help the team more than the current option of AoF? Or would there be too little to do for two BiP's (meaning that the additional e-management would be overkill)? - Just a thought --Haquillo (talk) 09:23, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I like dual BiP a lot and think it's a good (and fun) option in areas where more (AoE) healing is to be preferred over protection prayers. As a general choice protection prayers result in better stability. I personally don't see that much difference, but guild mates had noticeably different results with two healers vs. healer + protection prayers. I'll have to test the funny dervish once more as I already forgot how that one competes with the other options. But currently I'm tinkering with Zei Ri free alternatives, so this will have to wait. --Krschkr (talk) 09:36, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Another bar worth considering is a BSurge Resto, something roughly along the lines of this:


 * 10+4 air, 8+1 energy storage, 12 Resto, possibly substituting cracked armor elsewhere on the team (for minion damage + shock arrow). This is the route attempted by gwlegacy "BiP Support," but I found that version of the BSurge Resto to be incompetent because it is cast time gated and has fewer points in resto, resulting in less healing in exchange for subpar damage. The main advantage of this setup is obviously blinding surge, which provides AoE blind and thus an extra layer of defense against melees and preserving ST spirits for longer. I don't necessarily think this is superior to the N/Mo, but a more isolated comparison of the only main difference between BiP Support and Triple Energy Surge might be useful. --Xanshiz (talk) 16:36, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
 * There are two different bars, the one you posted (OghAMXVdItIcINncDzqH) and the one of the awkward "BiP Support" (OghjwgIcoSXVfDeDhDSTDTTOLg) team. What theory tells:
 * It is a defensive damage/heal hybrid. The hero AI is known to have issues using hybrid builds with proper skill prioritization. It will happen that the hero tries to deal damage when healing is needed and that the hero provides overheal when he should instead deal damage. Furthermore, as the damage part of the build has defensive (and possibly supportive, with cracked amour) aspects the hero won't discriminate properly between offensive support, debuffing, damage dealing and healing. None of these jobs will be done sufficiently well.
 * Let's look at skill activation and recharge times. In your build there are three skills with a low recharge time (up to 6) and one with a medium recharge time (up to 12). The other skills have long recharge times and/or are further restricted in their usage by the AI. The frequently usable skills have activation times of 2x 0.75 and 2x 1; overall the hero will usually have enough time to actually get his skills off without leaving many of them unused due to not having enough time. Compare that to BiP Support's version. Five skills with a low recharge time and one with a medium one, having casting times of 2x 0.75, 3x 1 and 1x 2, resulting in the hero being unable to make use of all skills frequently, leaving them unused on the bar. Especially as heroes like to wand every now and then.
 * Protective was Kaolai prevents getting benefits out of the weapons, so there won't be reduced recharge or activation times. In case of your build both things are regrettable, in case of the other one's it's primarily the activation time, as the hero won't be able to get any benefit out of lower recharge times.
 * Energy management. You have one skill for energy gain (but have to change the team so it actually works) and two energy preserving skills. But the better one only works on the air magic skills of which there are only two and they don't require that much energy. Then there's recuperation which takes away a lot of energy at once with no proper way of gaining it back. I expect the hero to be in constant need of blood is power support because it has no good energy management. If I were to run that kind of build I'd probably try glyph of lesser energy rather than air attunement and bring life instead of recuperation, shifting recuperation to the blood is power healer which has soul reaping (@9...12) and signet of lost souls for a surplus of energy. However I think that an earth elementalist with ward against melee and stone sheath/shockwave might be better at filling this defensive role. Now let's look at the energy management of the "BiP Support" elementalist: Air attunement for air magic which doesn't suffice, nothing else. Instead, there's even overcast further hurting the energy. The hero will have much trouble with energy and risk running low despite blood is power support.
 * Role in the team. That hero's there to compensate for the mesmer midline being particularly offensive and sacrificing the defense of panic and ineptitude and arcane conundrum for it. In particular against physicals given that energy surge mesmers at least provide some anti-caster shutdown. We need a hero that stabilizes the team. There are different approaches: Bring additional healing, bring additional shutdown or debuffs, bring additional offense to simply crush through foes, bring additional protection. Although the hero does have blinding surge, he's to be expected to be not doing well on the debuffing role. The skill requires to hit a currently attacking target to inflict blind on area. Heroes don't prioritize hitting multiple targets with it. They don't even seem to prioritizie hitting attacking targets with it. It's not a skill that does well at shutting down physicals. So the main stabilizing contribution is healing. That, however, is already in the team by having a blood is power healer, making other stabilizing elements preferable. Add hybrid AI issues, again, turning the hero even less reliable in stabilizing the team. It's not at all promising.
 * Now what experimentation tells: Theory was right about the "BiP Support" blinding surge healer and I haven't tested yours. :p Your build is less badly thought-through than the one of "BiP Support" but I still see trouble with it. Alas, I won't be able to test it any time soon (especially as dual mesmer for party size 4 has priority, I can't let you down on that) so I'll have to leave my criticism for your blinding surge healer suggestion in theory only for the moment.
 * Blinding surge healers seem to be worth considering but end up being not good enough to justify taking that slot in the team. In areas where you need a stabilizing character the N/Mo is superior, in areas where you don't need that a pure damage character will be the preferred option. --Krschkr (talk) 01:53, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

DoA HM without consumables
Just dropping this note here: A variant of this build seems to be able to walk through DoA HM without consumables quite reliably: Link to another of Eric's achievements. --Krschkr (talk) 16:07, 21 February 2019 (UTC) since that's what we see with the necromancer healer and necromancer prot between video and build page. Apart from that there are skill tweaks and a single replaced character: Direct healing rather than distraction and protection from the minion master. Well, luckily we don't have to agree about this since it's just a talk page note and not build page content. But since skill tweaks and shuffling of utility skills between characters now seems to make a build quite different in your point of view I guess that these and those changes are sufficient to constitute large scale build changes, so... do you agree with Misty and me that there should be a vote wipe? A 2 vs. 1 constellation can hardly be called a consensus, but if all three of us agree that's at least something and the best we can currently hope for. --Krschkr (talk) 10:21, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
 * This is pretty sick, doesn't get much more of an endorsement than that. Worth a mention in variants for player ESurge & illusion hero? Ruscur (talk) 22:48, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
 * This page needs a bit more generalization in general, but I postpone this because all the mesmer based general hero team builds might get hit by a larger scale change at some point in the future. But you'll see a discussion pop up in the community portal talk page when that time has come. --Krschkr (talk) 22:52, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Don't you think it's a bit of a stretch to call that a "variant of this build"? No command MM, no AoF necro, BiP bars are completely different, two resto bars instead of one, it runs IV and PoD, and that bar uses a Panic midline instead of "Triple Energy Surge." --Xanshiz (talk) 07:40, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
 * It surprises me that you would say that since earlier this week you called that "shuffling which bars have resto secondary versus command secondary, etc. to make everything fit"

Mercs/Zei Ri
When crafting these builds, was the inclusion/exclusion of mercenaries an important factor? Currently, the necessity of requiring a mercenary hero or Zei Ri for the melee variant is a severe limitation in the potential popularity of the melee variant of the build since many players do not have either. On the contrary, I feel the caster variance of this build could be improved through the addition of another mercenary mesmer. My question is this -- if we were to improve upon the current ST+BiP meta hero comp with the allowance of mercenaries, would that discussion occur on this page (potentially making both melee and caster versions merc only) or warrant the submission of a new page (which would also share a triple energy surge midline)? Xanshiz (talk) 04:31, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
 * The main concern originally was to have a stable yet effective team for caster players who don't have mercenary heroes. The melee version is on this page because it can be played effectively using basically 6 of 7 heroes without any changes, which made an extra page seem unneeded. I personally don't see a point in playing a triple energy surge mdiline as a melee player if it means that you'll lose either a well-functioning communing prot or a proper splinter weapon, so requiring Zei Ri seems to be a necessary nuisance if you really wish to play with this exact mesmer midline. Luckily there are well-working alternatives like this and that which use just two mesmers to keep the two ritualists.
 * Whether more pages make sense really depends on where changes will lead the build. If melee and caster version can be kept on the same page conveniently (which I think is currently the case) that'd be nice – and the same applies to changes that'd come with allowing the usage of mercenary heroes. If, say, the inclusion of mercenaries could be handled by adding a note to the variants section such as If you have access to mercenary heroes, replace the N/Mo prot with another mesmer hero: [build in variantbar template] we could well consider to keep it together. If the changes are larger and bleeding into other hero builds or increase the differences between melee and caster version, the page would get messy if we tried to keep it on one page and the presented builds would become impossible to vet properly. If the required changes turn out to be large enough to justify three separate pages, one for melee, one for casters (including a minor variant with brutal weapon for paragon and ranger I guess? That'd already be a good thing to add to the current page) and one for casters with mercenary heroes, that'd be a solution we should definitely consider. By the way, I know that at least two of my guild collegues which use this team have seen the test note already and if they go for a few test runs with it they'll probably let us know about their results soon. --Krschkr (talk) 01:19, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I've written up the version I propose over at Build:Team - 7 Hero Mercenary Mesmerway. This is the result of discussion/testing that has been going on for the past few months when working to improve the BiP Support pages. However, this build was never published since the move to gwlegacy occurred before posting this version. The original plan was to put these builds on the BiP support pages under "Mercenary Variant", but this caused the pages to become much too cluttered, so it was decided the mercenary variant would require a separate page. I don't see a convenient way to merge this with the triple esurge page, nor do I think that is a good idea because I consider it important to separate mercenary and non-mercenary pages when the changes are significant. Xanshiz (talk) 07:47, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Optionals on the ST
Is signet of creation worth it? I find it results in similar problems as spirit's gift, specifically that the hero casts it prematurely, prior to putting up all of its defensive spirits. Furthermore, does the bar as is currently have any energy problems? With 14 in spawning power, unless boon of creation is stripped, energy looks fine.

Next is the res -- I'm worried that if a character goes down, the reason is likely because spirits dropped, in which case I wouls prefer the ST recast spirits rather than spend time casting a res. --Xanshiz (talk) 15:30, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
 * The issue with communing prots is that after the first 6 useful skills there's barely anything left that'd be worth bringing. Low energy skills like enfeebling blood often induce hybrid AI issues which cause more issues than they provide benefit, additional spirits put too much strain on soul twisting, command shouts are heavy on energy. Signet of creation is by no means powerful, but it does help a bit in long/intense fights and doesn't usually do more harm than it provides benefits. I agree that the resurrection isn't ideal, but firstly barely anything dies with this team and secondly there's still a chance that some prots are either still up when this hero is resurrecting or recharging anyway. People who are very uncomfortable with the resurrection on the ritualist should bring a second one on a mesmer instead. --Krschkr (talk) 16:34, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Double -75 health
Just wanting to make sure... for the mesmers, the build is literally asking a double +3 rune, causing a whopping -150 health loss. Is this supposed to happen while using a 40/40 domination set (I assume this, since it's pointing to the article which indicates this set only). GamingReviewsYT (talk) 20:55, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
 * It says Equipment: Adept domination magic staff of fortitude with "Aptitude not Attitude" on this team build page. It would also work with a 40/40 set as the differences aren't that large, and I've played my mesmers with 380hp for a while, so I can say that the resulting 390hp you'd get wouldn't be dramatic. Low health point levels are part of this team build type. My impression is that with the two hero backline about 420–440 health points are the sweet spot of balancing backline efficiency and protection downtime buffer. You could try using a major rune and dropping 2 points from inspiration magic to still hit the sweet break point at 13. Using a 40/40 set you should then get 425hp (+5 compared to the current solution) at the cost of the chance that the energy management is quickly recharging and with lower energy gain from the energy management with energy spent on non-energy-management skills more often, so the energy level of the mesmers will be slightly less balanced, potentially straining the BiP more. --Krschkr (talk) 09:33, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

GamingReviewsYT's vote
Since your results differ drastically from those of the previous 9 votes I'd like to ask you for some additional information: Such an offensive team build is not suited for everyone's playing style, that much is no surprise. Some people are simply better off with more defensive setups. However, the extent of the build's failure described in your vote is surprising, since many players use this team for all sorts of content. Just last week we did the first hard mode titan quest with basically this team and I'm not the only one who did a lot of winds of change in hard mode with it, so something interesting has to be going on here. It'd be great if you could provide these extra informations and possibly test some of the mentioned build variants in case you were using the melee build version, so we can improve the build's reliability and make the build more useful for players with a playing style similar to yours. --Krschkr (talk) 22:25, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Did you play the caster or melee version of the team?
 * Though I personally find the prot of the caster version to be unnessecary, multiple testers found it to help a lot with improving the team's reliability in comparison to an additional damage character – more so than different healer and hybrid builds that were tested in comparison. So the caster version should be stable.
 * The current build version for melees drops the prot entirely, so it wouldn't be very surprising if some people found this to hurt the team's reliability. I reckon that you played that version, in which case there are some build variants that could be tested which would sneak in either a spirit bond or some additional healing – depending on preferance with or without minions. These changes would keep the mesmer midline (which is the point of this team) intact.
 * Playing without minions: Change the support ritualist to a command/restoration/channeling hybrid OAmkQKhoIbqz1Ej5NZmTOf8OuGD  and replace the minion necromancer with a primary smiter  OwkjAlOsZO+sqPedHvQo+uk5B  roughly like that.
 * Playing without minions: Change the support ritualist to a command/restoration/channeling hybrid OAmkQKhoIbqz1Ej5NZmTOf8OuGD  and replace the minion master with a prot  OANEY5VO+8QQ0irk7KUzOUVnH  roughly like that.
 * Playing with minions: Change the support ritualist to carry spirit bond OAOkQKisj+gz1Ej5NZmax7qLZeA  roughly like that.
 * Playing with minions: Change the support ritualist to carry healing OAOkQKhqI7gz1Ej5NZmTuxpLZeA  and let the BiP healer run recuperation over life.
 * What was your player build?
 * Which were your testing areas?
 * Can you provide exemplary video footage of things going awry with this team? Bonus: Can you provide exemplary video footage of a different team working better in the same testing area using the same player build and approach? That can help immensely with troubleshooting.
 * I agree that the melee version might be less reliable due to a single healer. I would favor playing with minions and changing the support ritualist to carry healing, especially since spells on the current bar such as Lamentation and Smite Condition are rather underwhelming. I would suggest a bar such as OAOk4ghqITKz1Ej5NlmTuh5yceA. Recuperation is very expensive, and smite hex is rather underwhelming, especially with 3 copies of shatter hex already.
 * A different topic, but as evidenced by this vote, the PvX voting system is rather sensitive to outliers. If someone has a bad experience with a build, a 2/5 vote doesn't seem unreasonable. However, a single 2/5 vote would necessitate 11 perfect 5/5 votes in order for a build to be considered "Great". --Xanshiz (talk) 18:37, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
 * The build you suggest has the downside that the hero will be quite busy casting all those spells (3x quickly recharging 1 or 3/4 spell, 1x medium recharge 1 second spell) while also losing the nice weapon set bonuses which could speed up casting and boost splinter weapon. I'd rather keep spirit siphon as the energy management and avoid protective was Kaolai in favour of life. If you dislike recuperation a spirit of restoration is another not too bad option for the BiP. And if you're very unhappy with smite hex that could still go for mend body and soul as you suggest. Possibly even a resurrection to get another drain enchantment on the mesmers; however, then there's not a single fast casting resurrection in the team, which wouldn't be great either. (People should buy mercenaries so they can have flesh on an inep :p) As always, determining the preferable variant simply requires comparative testing to find out what actually works best.
 * If a vote is reasonable it can stay, even if it is far off the experience of other players. Whether this one in particular fits the criteria to stay – we'll see, let's wait for the discussion with the vote's author and find out how these results occured. If we can find what caused the issues, we can either try to improve the builds or find out that i.e. the mesmer heroes were set to avoid combat. And if the vote turns out to be indefensible it can still be removed. --Krschkr (talk) 14:31, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
 * As we haven't heard back from GamingReviewsYT so far I'll remove the contested vote for the time being. --Krschkr (talk) 11:36, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
 * One comment about PwK -- as you suggest, a reason to keep it off you channeling rits is due to the +1/20% mod, which increases splinter damage from 265/target (max) to 336/target (max). However, a 20% chance of a 26.8% damage increase is only a 5.4% damage increase on average. While I agree that the weapon benefits are very useful, I think the additional PwK might often be more useful. Next -- I keep going back and forth about spirit siphon. On one hand, it is often a 1/4 second +11 net energy spell. However, it tends to target the same spirit on repeated uses, resulting in a net energy loss per cast. I also find that, in the aforementioned scenario, heroes tend to spam it (as they remain low energy), resulting in a significant time waste. --Xanshiz (talk) 21:45, 20 October 2019 (UTC)
 * The weapon does of course do more than just the +1 channeling magic, which you should be aware of. Faster usage of the spammy healing skills is quite useful, so that shouldn't be left out of consideration. The issue with dual protective was Kaolai is that it often produces healing spikes that cause mostly overhealing and barely bring any benefit. I don't know at which relative health level heroes start to drop Kaolai, but I think it's at about 80% on at least three party members? For 420hp mesmer heroes that's 84 damage received and each Kaolai heals for 70/75 health points, potentially wasting one almost completely. Unless the entire team received a very large hit right away the first Kaolai drop will usually be a waste of potential and force both heroes to spend 1.75 seconds and 10 energy to get a new bundle. It could help in longer fights when multiple characters are under pressue, but first: I don't find that to be troublesome even with just a single healer and second: With two spot healers it shouldn't be an issue anymore and third: Bringing life on the rit and recuperation on the BiP provides better long-term healing for those long-lasting pressure heavy fights.
 * If you play your ritualist with healing I'd definitely keep spirit siphon. Not only does this free up precious time to cast other spells, but it also avoids offense/heal hybrid AI issues. You already have enough of them on the BiP. With a Rt/P without restoration magic it's probably up to chance what is better. The AI usage of spirit siphon is unfortunate, but it often is a quite useful quick energy gain that helps the hero to keep going. And when he's already received BiP he won't need a second one as he's already back in the game. --Krschkr (talk) 01:24, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

Variable Hero (Melee)
I like the direction with putting spirit bond on the melee SoS. I think Shield of Absorption should also be added, as it is the other busted protection prayers spell, especially on a melee variant where the player often takes aggro. In addition, I think the attributes should be 10 Prot, 8 smite. This loses two damage on SoH but gains an extra second on shield of absorption. Something like OAOk4gPqITKz1Ej5NLnMTt4ddeA.

--Xanshiz (talk) 01:34, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
 * As long as we keep triple shatter hex on the mesmers that should work. --Krschkr (talk) 01:35, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
 * This then also raises the question of equipment choice. Staff wrapping of mastery for stronger splinter, or staff wrapping of enchanting for longer protection prayers spells. I would lean towards the latter, especially because the last second of SoA is by far the strongest. --Xanshiz (talk) 01:48, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
 * And I'd definitely prefer the former because the improved splinter weapon is extremely mighty. Let's simply suggest both and let people pick what they prefer? --Krschkr (talk) 01:53, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
 * A 17 channeling splinter is certainly very mighty, but a 20% chance of a 26.8% damage increase is only a 5.4% damage increase on average. Although a 5.4% damage increase on an already very strong spell is still very good. I agree that listing both is probably the best option. --Xanshiz (talk) 02:10, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
 * The page now lists both. The outdated note about the smiting prayers staff is now gone aswell. --Krschkr (talk) 02:21, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Non-merc melee
I think it might be worth adding a non-mercenary melee variant by swapping the Rt/Mo to a Mo/Rt. The skills and attributes would remain the same, the only difference is runes. Certainly losing 4 points in channeling is a big hit to splinter, but the only way to maintain a 16 channeling splinter is to drop a Mesmer. And given how dominant mesmers are on all fronts (damage AND shutdown), the loss of a mesmer (by running, say, a fake mesmer, an RoJ, an invoke ele, or something of the sort) outweighs four points in channeling (from the testing I've done). Plus runeing protection prayers gives an extra second on SoA. --Xanshiz (talk) 06:32, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Since there was no objection, I went ahead and added it after doing a few test runs to verify its effectiveness. --Xanshiz (talk) 16:46, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

Ranger
I gave a build variant to a ranger player who went into WoC HM tests with it (first few quests), his results were good despite using a N/Rt instead of primary rit for splinter weapon. Alas, that good dude called rangermancer has ever since disappeared, so I haven't received any additional reports. I'm bound to forget this if I don't write it down somewhere, so here's the variant: If anyone feels like testing it, please report your results so we know whether it's worth adding to the build page. Right now both ranger and paragon aren't covered and I think at least rangers can be added to this build page easily. Not so sure about paragons since they provide so much defense that a few more changes to the team might be desirable instead of just switching out the variable hero for an elementalist or third necromancer (running dual discord/FB). --Krschkr (talk) 02:11, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I think ranged martial classes can be easily added to this page without the need to include new bars. The only spell that needs to change is strength of honor, and the smiting attributes can either go into protection prayers (if running Prot secondary) or restoration magic (if running Resto secondary). For instance, adding a note "ranged martial players should replace strength of honor with ___ and raise ___ to 12" would suffice. Unless you would recommend protection prayers for melee and restoration magic for ranged, in which case this solution no longer works. But in this case, would there be 5 options for the variable hero? (caster, melee Rt/mo, melee mo/rt, ranged Rt/any, ranged N/rt).
 * On a side note -- order of pain on the BiP seems like a quick way to add some significant unnecessary risk on the most sensitive hero in the composition. I wouldn't recommend it. --Xanshiz (talk) 06:37, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Hmm, you're right. Simply dropping SoH would allow to run a ranger with the least amount of changes. Changing prots to restoration magic and adding order of pain to make proper use of the increased availability of heals is probably a bit overkill. I've done a very short test with these builds myself and they were good, although I didn't yet like the player bar. Needling shot works very well with a flat bow, by the way, the arrows are accelerated and have a flat angle by default! For now I'll add the ranger option by adding an alternative to SoH in the variants. --Krschkr (talk) 20:31, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

Factions/Nightfall alternative for Aura of Faith?
Is there a goodish alternative of this skill? I haven't really played any Prophecies yet. -- kazerniel (talk) 15:22, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Based on Build:N/Mo Soul Reaping Prot Hero, I suggest Zealous Benediction. The boss to capture it from would be gww:Corsair Commander (monk) in the challenge mission when you reach nightfall mainland (spawns on roughly the second lap, at the end of the third island to the southwest). - Chieftain Alex (talk) 18:29, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you! (Gamepedia didn't notify me of the talk page change for some reason.) -- kazerniel (talk) 14:46, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Since you're still playing normal mode another alternative would be to bring either more damage heroes (fake mesmers, for example) or a second N/Rt healer. Protection prayers only start working well in hard mode when foes trigger spirit bond a lot. --Krschkr (talk) 00:11, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * If you don't have enough mesmers, just fill it up with air/ea fire elementalists. From what I've seen, fake mesmers are much worse than a real ele. ZStepmother (talk) 09:11, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep in mind that Kazerniel is quite new to the game and doesn't have that many skills unlocked. That's why I suggested something that wouldn't put additional financial pressure on him. --Krschkr (talk) 11:37, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, folks! For now I stayed with Zealous Benediction on Tahlkora (as I don't have Livia yet). Other than that I finally got all heroes and skills for this build :) -- kazerniel (talk) 20:17, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

I would not recommend zealous benediction. First off, heros don't use the skill well and waste energy very fast (from wiki: "AI uses this without considering the condition for the energy return.") If your in normal mode, protection prayers isn't as powerful as it is in hardmode, and isn't worth dedicating a full bar towards. I would recommend using this Healing Burst build and subbing out healing burst for Word of Healing, which you should already have (take HB if you do have it, but it's only unlockable late into Factions). WoH also synergizes will with keeping the BiP redbarred. something like this:

11+1+1 Heal, 9+1 Prot, 8+1 Divine, 8 Insp. Use an "of enchanting" staff because enchantments.

If you really want Weakness. Will use more BiPs. Bump Healing up to 12, add 5 in curses. Can also switch spotless mind for anything else, such as Weaken Armor to help out your bone fiends or leech signet for better e-management. This type of build features low-cost heals + prots, good hex removal, slots for utility, and most importantly doesn't drain energy. Monk heros love to spam Zealous Benediction, Protective Spirit, and Spirit Bond. All three of these skills are energy draining & unnecessary on a normal mode monk build. If you do end up using a necro hero, I'd use Life Sheath if you can. It is very easy to acquire not too far along in Factions. ZB is acceptable on a necro as it has better e-management, and can eat the 10 energy cost occasionally. Willarddog (talk) 17:23, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

N/Mo Prot
It has been said that an N/Mo Prot performs noticeably worse against heavy degen pressure compared to a second N/Rt Resto. The counters to heavy degen pressure are both direct heals and hex/condition removal. In addition, the protection bars are used to their fullest potential when the player is on the front lines, either from corner blocking or from aggressively shadow stepping in. However, the N/Mo is the caster variant, meaning that the potential of the bar is probably wasted by players staying in the mid-line. I suggest two possible skill changes:

1) Switch Aegis for Mend Condition.


 * Aegis as a whole is not used well here. It barely brings anything to the table, as you already have displacement. It also has a long recharge and long cast time. It is not worth using over any of the other skills on the bar. On the flip side, Mend Condition signficifantly boosts the hero's ability to respond to pressure; stopping condition degen from persisting while also giving a micro heal. One strong point of contention is that if there are no conditions, then the hero won't waste time casting the spell. This is a good thing. It is used when you need it, and it will not be used (over more important spells like Spirit Bond!) when you don't need it. You may ask, why not Foul Feast? Foul Feast may remove more conditions from the target, but it simply changes who has them. Foul Feast is also currently bugged, in that if the Necro Hero has the condition, it will not use Foul Feast to remove the same condition on anyone in the party. Also, as conditions are often quickly re-applied in PvE play, the small quick heal from Mend Condition is what proves most useful for general play.

2) Switch Aura of Faith for Zealous Benediction.


 * Aura of Faith is used to its fullest potential on party member who is receiving large amounts of aggro. If used correctly, it acts as a spot prot which can save lives, especially in combination with Spirit Bond. However, its synergy with spirit bond is only realized if the spells are cast in the right order. Otherwise the spell seems lacking for general play for a caster player who is unlikely to draw aggro to himself aggressively. Zealous Benediction is a decent sized heal on a short cool down which the N/Mo can afford even if the conditional is not met. Willarddog (talk) 02:20, 16 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Page currently lists fomf on only 1 mesmer. All other mesmerway comps show atleast two copies on the mesmers. Having only one copy on a mesmer and one on the ST is not enough; the ST res should be a third backup res with variants (such as remove hex, SoH, FB!) Willarddog (talk) 12:32, 19 August 2020 (UTC)