Build talk:Me/Mo Bezzr Wingstorm Farmer

very dissapointed at your apporach to the wiki, and how others make things and you do whatever you want without even trying to work with them first. but i guess thats why the pvx has become very dead. cant really improve things when one person controls it all. im going to cease working on the site and let it die in peace Shadeinthebox (talk) 16:24, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I have provided you with reasons why your edits on those two pages couldn't last. If you want to create a convenient scapegoat narrative because of that I won't stop you. --Krschkr (talk) 21:48, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
 * theres many other pages with the same things i used here, some by me, some by others, but you go and change everything i did, TWICE, for no valid reason other than your personal preference. otherwise other ones would have been changed by a mod, you, etc etc. its just sickening. Shadeinthebox (talk) 21:53, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
 * ya I’m confident this isolated kerfuffle is nowhere near the reason PvX became “very dead” Juniper real (talk) 23:32, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
 * If you think Krschr is ignoring pages that are formatted how you formatted your pages, please link them - I can't be aware of all the pages on the wiki at once. He probably can't either. -Toraen (talk) 11:32, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

After talking with Shade over discord, I think this actually should be NM focused to serve the needs of the playerbase, namely gearing up mesmer heroes for the meta teams they'll want to take on the rest of GW with (a harder farm to get elite tomes isn't really relevant to this goal). I've started the rewrite, and not much more should have to change, but we'll be focusing on the NM usage here with additional notes for HM usage. -Toraen (talk) 13:26, 7 February 2019 (UTC) The same points would apply to brightclaw: New players want to set up their healer heroes, they will not always have hard mode and the easier the farm gets, the better. Therefore, for the sake of consistence, you'd have to change the brightclaw farm aswell. However, these points are not convincing me:
 * Build:Me/Mo Arbor Earthcall Farm HM
 * Build:Me/Mo Elsnil Frigidheart Farm HM
 * (see latest edit)
 * Build:Me/Mo Moteh Thundershooter HM Farm
 * Build:Me/N Chkkr Brightclaw Farmer HM
 * By this logic we'd have to change above farm builds to normal mode as standard, too. I'm not convinced. --Krschkr (talk) 15:29, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Not true. Those were made as green farms just so people have a way to farm greens (or elite tomes in some cases) since they are part of the game and there has been no way created to effectively solo farm them. So o created ways and posted them. The first 4 can be moved to my user page if the pvx community sees fit, as I don't think they are worth posting on the official site since they are not important greens. Brightclaw is meant to be done in HM, as there is less rit bosses in the game than mesmers, and the you almost always get an easy accessed chest. The green dropped from brightclaw is also great for current meta heroes but is also a preferences item. Some people prefer other weapons. It is no where near on the same level as 20/20 Dom wand for mesmers. I think the brightclaw farm can have a note saying it can be done in NM if preferred, which thanks for pointing that out. But the Mesmer farm was built for the massive influx of new players wanting to set up Mesmer heroes. They will not always have hardmode, and are not as skilled. The money costing for the required 20/20 Dom wand for Mes heroes is also sometimes a bit much for newer people. It being in normal mode is kind of the point I created the build and tactic. (No I do not own the page but I did make the farm). Thus the pvx should reflect this for this specific instance, but the page should definitely include information for hardmode as well, as some end game players can use it for Mesmer tomes or just as a means for a green or free 20/20 Dom wand. So do try and understand why this is like that. (I'm also on my phone right now , will be home later today and clean it up) - shade Shadeinthebox (talk) 16:55, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Brightclaw can be used as a wand for 40/40 restoration magic sets which are the most common equipment choice for N/Rt healers, which are the most common healing hero choice and part of pretty much every stable team build in the last decade. The 40/40 restoration magic wand is one of few items which can't be created at the weapon smith NPC. Therefore, there is actually a point in farming Brightclaw. Your point for turning the wingstorm farm into a normal mode only build is "But the Mesmer farm was built for the massive influx of new players wanting to set up Mesmer heroes. They will not always have hardmode, and are not as skilled. The money costing for the required 20/20 Dom wand for Mes heroes is also sometimes a bit much for newer people."
 * Creating a 40/40 set domination magic costs 10 platinum + 80 iron + 6 plant fibers + 6 steel ingots. The current price for these materials is 3990 gold pieces. Let's say a 40/40 domination magic costs 14 platinum, of which the wand contributes 6.7 platinum.
 * Few money: This farming build recommends to use a 40/40 set domination magic, a rune of superior domination magic and radiant insignias. On top of that, you need 8 skills of which 7 are pretty uncommon, all of which have to be bought/captured first. This is, assuming the player already has a max. armour rating equipment, an upfront investment of roughly 32.5 platinum to farm an item you can get for 6.7 platinum. If taking the financial situation of a new player into account, you have to drop the insignias, replace the rune with a major domination magic and the weapon set recommendation with any staff and finally tag the page with  .
 * Few money #2: Especially if you have few money the chance of receiving an elite mesmer tome is worth a lot: They are traded for 3 globs of ectoplasm in Kamadan, which are currently worth 7 platinum each. Even if the price drops a bit, that's about 14 to 22 platinum profit. I wouldn't recommend a less profitable version of the farm with the argument that the player has no currency...
 * Few money #3: Lockpicks are a goldsink, so you'd have to drop that remark, too.
 * New player: For this farm you need migraine, which is very very deep in the prophecies campaign and somewhat deep in eye of the north. Doesn't sound that suited. A similar skill which might work as an alternative, if you want to turn this into an actually beginner suited build, is stolen speed.
 * New player #2: I haven't seen a single player who's urge to perfectly equip the heroes including 40/40 set was so strong that he couldn't do three more missions (two of which take less than 10 minutes) to play through the campaign. In contrary, I rather see people foregoing the hero equipment in favour of playing through all campaigns first. Especially chronologically, in which case the player would have neither mesmer heroes to farm this item for nor access to the nightfall skills in this build.
 * Lack of experience: Those who want to trade the chance for elite mesmer tomes for safety can do that. However, in my opinion, hard mode as the main bar only gives advantages due to having a chance for higher profits.
 * I want to provide people with the best builds on PvX. A build which can farm a spot in both hard mode (more profitable) and normal mode (safer) is superior to one which only works in normal mode. This superiority is achieved by replacing one familiar skill, so by running essentially the same bar, just slightly improved. My opinion is: The superior bar should be main bar, what we recommend to people, and the alternatives should be kept in the variants. If you want to keep this farm most suited to beginners, tag the page accordingly and change it so it is actually suited for beginners, which this build is not.
 * I probably shouldn't care so much about this page. It is an inefficient farm among many inefficient farms. After all, one has to consider most farms a waste of time and currency in comparison with playing quests with heroes. Especially newer players are better off not farming and instead playing through the campaigns with their heroes, perhaps doing side quests aswell. It's the better way to earn currency, skills. runes, title progress and get actually more experienced in playing the game. But I'd rather not dispense with a high standard wherever it's been introduced.
 * On a side note: if you want this build to reach more players, or if you want any other build in PvX to reach more players, give them a vote so they can be tagged with a rating box and show up in the respective search categories. I have given the two farming builds we're currently discussing a rating. Will you do the same, considering you seem quite attached to them, to draw them out of the large pool of builds lingering in the unrated category? Until that happens barely anyone will notice these builds anyway. --Krschkr (talk) 18:30, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
 * brightclaw CAN be, but with item spells, which 99% of the time they will be using one, most people opt for best in slot at the time. mesmer heroes are also usable effectively a lot sooner than n/rt healers to take advantage of 20/20 wands. but i do agree, youre right. I will also update brightwing in this case, because as a matter of fact, just the other day me and a new players went and capped some elites, as i showed them around, and told them about the farm. ofc they were in normal mode but said theyd be doing both. so valid point. will update the rit one too. to match this one. also recomended doesnt mean required. it IS normal mode focused meaning things are leniant. if i need to adjust some wording to make this clear in the page I will. you could use no weapons and do it just fine. the elite is not that hard to cap, especially if it is around the time they would be wanting to gear heroes. but remember its not just a hero or two, its per character. lock picks are not required, nor are keys. if you have them, they are WORTH using here. also again, reccomended is not required. stolen speed is a GREAT suggestion! i will test it and consider making it more of the official elite than migraine, or as an alternative. idk how often you interact with new players, but i do it quite often, almost daily. many are constantly asking for proper gear and ways to get it, and this has been a very positive feedback from many of them. i do like some of the suggestions youve had and will keep improving this. but forcing it into being a hardmode restricted farm, is not the purpose. it just so happens it can also be a quick easy elite mesmer tome farm. which is cool too, but its not the only one of something like that. Shadeinthebox (talk) 19:11, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I have been constantly helping new and less experienced players ingame and in the web since 2011, which is the reason why I'm active on PvX. Any response to my other points? --Krschkr (talk) 19:58, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I responded to every point you made? lol. Shadeinthebox (talk) 20:01, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
 * 30k upfront payment, inefficiency of the farm in general in comparison with playing normal content with heroes. Rating builds. --Krschkr (talk) 20:07, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
 * i stated multiple times, reccomended is not required, and i will change the page to match that. inefficiency in that sense then can be used as to saying dont use half the builds on the site bc theres just better ways of doing things. it has a purpose, you can disagree though. also yeah the voting, i wasnt sure how to feel about voting stuff i had made, as it seemed bias. but yeah i can. mainly the people i help get this information from me directly, as most people (not by me) get told not to bother with pvx in its current state. but yeah voting is kind of a big part of pvx so i should participate. Shadeinthebox (talk) 20:33, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

update
after a lot of testing, i have determined a few things. I tested more of the hm version to see if it was actually just better. HM is very random. It requires you to get multiple halve skill recharges to be done safely, which is luck based. It is also quite difficult. For these reasons i strongly think it needs to stay NM focused as an option for HM. I know you might think all pvx builds should be HM focused, but sometimes that is not always the case. In regards to the sister page of the brightwing, the hardmode version is not dependant on random percents or nowhere near as difficult. So i will be leaving it in HM but will change some notes for NM. a shout hero also is not required for HM, it is the same exact concept as NM, and ive updated the page to fit that. Since this is more focused on being done in NM, ive lowered the requirements by quite a lot to fit the point a lot better after it was mentioned. I have also tested doing it many times with as little as possible. Somehow we all overlooked that my attributes were actually wrong (12 - 11 - 3) when it could have been 12 - 12 - 3 lol. So i fixed that as well. I kept the format the same since apparently the way I format is done incorrectly a lot, so that should be fine for the most part here. I have also instead of having both builds on the page, just included notes as for what the differences for HM would be. Shadeinthebox (talk) 16:54, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

Typhloman's Vote
So, I don't know why it's not working in your case. I've rewatched the video I made back then for the hard mode version and there was no recharge time halving happening as far as I'm aware. You might want to compare the video with your own run and see whether you find the key difference. The build only needed the high energy set to have enough energy to rupt. What you might be doing wrong is counterintuitive... are you well at rupting? That might ruin it. Try to rupt the skills when they're about to end, not as soon as possible. That makes Bezzr spend more time casting during which action your skills keep recharging. If that was the issue, great to have found it, so we can clarify the usage section and keep the build – or you still find it bad and it'll be buried nonetheless. Just so you're aware: Unless you change your devastating vote this build will be deleted since I'm the only one to give it a good rating and Toraen only gave it a so-so vote – right now this means the build is clearly not favoured by the community. --Krschkr (talk) 23:40, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I dont think one persons mistakes makes a build page worth deletion. He was obviously not doing something right as I have worked with many players since I made this and they have gotten plenty of good wands out of it. I agree its not an easy accessible build for new players but setting up a meta hero comp is end game anyways. As for the one single bad review that you are allowing control "the communities" feelings, he stated he did it once in normal mode. It is meant to be done in nm, as hm provides little benefit for the RNG it requires to complete, which is why i reverted the changes you did when you made it HM. Its meant for nm for a lot of reasons. And it works 100% consistent. Its not right to let 1 persons failure of using it stand for the whole community when 2 others found it to work fine who voted and many other players who did not used it perfectly fine. Also "I've rewatched the video I made back then for the hard mode version and there was no recharge time halving happening as far as I'm aware." you should go rewatch your video then. I have done a lot of testing for it, and im removing the HM mentions entirely. Shadeinthebox (talk) 17:30, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
 * That's how democracy works, Shade! #Brexit Houroftheowl (talk) 18:19, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I can't stop you from condescendingly blaming Typhloman. This doesn't change anything about the facts that A) the build is not working consistently for him and his vote is therefore justified and B) that every user's vote counts the same in this rating system. I disapprove of your removal of the hard mode version of this farm because it expresses blatant disesteem of the solution that had been found previously to appease you and stop your lashing out. Your change obviously was controversial, you should have discussed it in advance. We've talked about this case just recently and once again you'd displayed deficient understanding of PvX:OWN. Because the HM version you removed was the basis for my own vote, I have now withdrawn it. If the page were to stay I'd insist on a discussion of the removal of the HM version, but I won't bother anymore with it as it's still heading towards deletion. --Krschkr (talk) 18:29, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I have already mentioned why multiple times. I actually wouldnt mind having hard mode on the page, it just needs to be presented better than it was. because it DOES require 40/40 recharge triggers. I did extensive testing with it, and you can even see it in your video. I would love to discuss it to try and figure out a good way to present it, but as it was was not healthy for the page is all. And basing your vote on changes you added that you didnt understand being the case, then I am fine with it being removed as a vote then, I think that is good. Like I said, im all for adding the HM stuff to it, as you did find some nice things for it, but it was not consistent and needed more work, as with what it was, it was misleading people causing them to perform poorly and skew ratings. Shadeinthebox (talk) 18:36, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

I'm interested in trying this out but need to play through Factions first. Hopefully I can do that before it's deleted. At a glance, Typhloman's vote seems like something they should've asked on the talk page, not posted as a rating. If all they needed was a better explanation of usage, that can be amended and the vote updated - however, I doubt we'll get an answer from them at this point. I think both sides make good points on the HM/NM issue, but I also think that you are not really disagreeing. We just need to update the page to include and explain both variants and decide which to mainbar. A HM farm that can also be done safely in NM seems like a notable thing to me. Sacropedia (talk) 19:50, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Alright, on the topic of consistency. I went through more extensive testing this time to be safe against RNG. Half an hour of testing should suffice for this.


 * Summary:


 * Runs
 * 22 total. (30 minutes)
 * 4 normal mode.
 * 18 hard mode.
 * 13 successful runs
 * 59% of total runs.
 * Loot worth 600g.
 * One successful run would've failed for most other players. Someone who needs to farm for basic equipment won't be aware enough to dodge projectiles that have been sent out with a missing attack animation. That run was during normal mode.
 * 9 failed runs.
 * 41% of total runs.
 * 7 times general counter that applies to both normal and hard mode.
 * One additional run that would've failed for most players in normal mode due to buggy AI.
 * 2 times fail due to avoidable application error on my side.
 * Resilient against missed interruptions. Went successfully through runs with one and two missed interruptions.
 * Let through two of Bezzr's hexes due to not having any rupt recharge time reduction on multiple occasions. This doesn't cause any issues for the reliability, no run was at risk due to that. Also missed rupts in some runs, caused no large issue, no run failed because of that. The only thing that killed runs were general issues that apply to normal mode aswell or avoidable misplay. With this data and the terrible loot in mind (let's not deny it, farming is for the loot – farming materials or general loot by killing many foes is much more reliable than this kind of endeavour) I'd actually give this build a 2/1 rating now due to being not lucrative and featuring an environment unsuited for farming. Especially with the HM variant removed, as that also eliminates the chance to get an elite tome that'd actually be worth a tiny bit. People are better off playing quests, they'll get quest rewards on top of plenty of loot. And beginners actually learn something about the game by playing it instead of wasting time farming. --Krschkr (talk) 21:07, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I posted on their page asking for some more details and offered some help to see what the issue was, as multiple people who were somewhat beginners really enjoyed using this and wanted to make sure it stays on the page. I would not say it is an insanely easy farm for probably what is left of the average player base, but HM is really not what the farm was made for. Sometimes farms make more sense in HM, such as Brightclaw, but this boss being a mesmer and everything combined, it just makes it too inconstant for to be mainbar as HM. Its 99% consistent in NM given surely you are bound to mess up or some spawn might be bad. Not the same for HM. Shadeinthebox (talk) 21:55, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
 * A lot of the points you made are exactly why it is meant for NM. I mean the point of the farm is right at the top of the page :) As many times as ive done this im also inclined to believe you just had the most unlucky time ever as I have only encountered a healer being too close under 10% of the time. Also, some of your fails from your descriptions mostly seem like user error. If you dont mess up, NM is very very consistent, and it has shown in results with a lot of players. People dont really want to make 2 accounts of things or hassle connecting everything to twitch just to vote on pvx, thats not your fault its gamepedias, but it is the state of things. I think you should look more to the community thoughts and not just a couple of people who bother saying something on the pvx. So again, the reason why its current state should not be done in HM is because of the failure rate with rng and just difficulty. However, for NM, it does what it is intended to do fast, simple, and consistent. Shadeinthebox (talk) 21:55, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I've shown quite clearly that none of the failures was due to hard mode. It was because healers spawn in range of the boss or the boss aggroing at long range. The same would've (and has) happened in normal mode. With another issue, the boss being bugged, happening in normal mode only. I won't do another 30 minutes of testing, 18 hard mode runes were sufficient to prove that hard mode does not cause issues, but the farming area does.
 * Also, we've already had this discussion. The content of PvX is determined by PvX users, only their vote counts. Anyone can claim that they say what the community thinks, however, they only say what they themselves think and try to give themselves undue authority. There's enough populism in politics, we don't need it here and it won't catch on here. --Krschkr (talk) 22:20, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Thought I would, again, test it to prove your testing was not the best for the purpose of the page, even though you only proved that the HM version needs more work. I spent around 30 min testing, used the recommended armor, but used only a HAMMER with no beneficial mods at all. Yes, a hammer. No possible 40/40 triggers, and no extra weapon energy. This is proving the invalidity of some of the skewed ratings, not that its going to change anything apparently but im trying to do what I can. Also, all runs I picked up all loot perfectly fine on normal runs, even waited extra to make sure.


 * Did 22 runs total under the conditions stated above. 16 success 6 failed (5 user error). Just under 73% success rate, for someone who has not done this in a very very long time.


 * Out of the 16 success runs, 14 runs worked perfectly normal. One, I got back patrol aggro while killing the boss, still killed the boss. Used hero to rez and get loot. Also the aggro could have been avoided if i was paying attention and moved over. One, the boss got healer aggro, and I still killed him without much difficulty.


 * Out of the 6 fails, 3 were my fault for aggroing wrong/early or caused popups from running in, 1 was due to my limitations of the hammer as a healer was aggroed but could have still killed boss if I had more energy, and 1 was due to the boss already fighting. Note, you can still kill the boss but if you did not do more damage than the other foes, you will not get drops, so I count this as a fail. And the last one I want to mention separately, as the boss aggroed from longbow range and I was not prepared. Still doable if prepared. A lot of interesting notes I will be adding to the page, but 5 of these 6 were arguably user error, which if you take that out, bumps it up to over 95% success rate, but im not going to pad it that much.


 * So as you can see, there isnt actually anything wrong here if you look at the 2 bad ratings compared to what the builds actual use is. As for drops I got a monstrous eye, a ruby, 4 scrolls, some blues, whites, and 1 wingstorm. I will add that another weakness would be how inconsistent the drop rate can be, but I have an idea to improve the drop rate just need more testing and talking with people, however it is definitely an issue for farms of this nature all over, as I have gotten 2 in 10 minutes before, yet 1 in 25 minutes, but I think fail to success rate is a large factor here. Shadeinthebox (talk) 15:35, 31 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Sorry guys, I was not able to login for a few days. I probably should have posted here before I voted.  Sorry about that.  I do not remember the exact number of runs, but I tried it in HM about 10 times, and NM maybe 5 times and only had one success with no loot in a NM run.  I am going to test it a little bit more for a bit and take the advice listed above.  I'll use a 40/40 set. with high energy armor.  Mozo (talk) 02:27, 1 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Before I continue, just want to edit what I said before... I did get some loot, but died before grabbing it because of aggro from other group.  Got confused with all of the other runs I did testing some other mesmer builds.


 * Ok. So I tried this again.  I can get it to work with about the same frequency as above in NM.  What really helped was waiting as long as possible to rupt to allow for skill recharge time as suggested earlier.  However, you need to be quick with rupting Ether.  Apart from a few runs that I failed because of aggro pulling too far from a bad spawn of the first group (even with shouts up), I didnt have too many issues.  Just needed practice.  So when I made the rating before, I tried first in HM because I assume that all farming should be in HM (unless there is some specific reason) because of the increased chance of Rare Item drops, and in the cases of these types of farms, Elite Tomes.  When I tested this again in HM, I tried for a while, and I still cannot get it to work.  I switched in Power Return for Cry of Frustration as mentioned in the previous revision because without energy, it will auto attack you and do like 200+ damage each time...  Still could not kill it.  In HM it is nearly impossible to wait until the skills are done casting to rupt as with what worked in NM.  I again found myself waiting for recharge times of rupt skills.  I even changed the order so Power Return was the first rupt skill I used, then power spike, then the others (fastest recharge times first).  This helped a little bit, but I was still not able to deal enough damage before running out of skills again.  Now for HM vs NM.  If the "specific reason" for this farm is for the green, I would be ok with revising my vote to "good" because of unlucky spawns/aggro and some general inconsistency.  However, I feel that the people looking for a 40/40 set would likely already have one if they are attempting this and would likely do more profitable farms.  That is just my opinion.  If the green is not the only intent, there is really no reason to keep doing this in NM.  You get just as good of loot as doing a regular PVE kill with a team.  I will revise my vote for now and hopefully will be able to login again soon.  I got really busy at work lately.  Mozo (talk) 03:31, 1 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Like I said I am always willing to go out with people and work one on one, because I would prefer a build like this to at least not cause people a huge learning road block. And if there are ways I can improve it to do so it would be great. As i stated in my testing results, I used a simple hammer and had an amazing success rate. The HM version was not something I was a fan of, and after it caused so many issues of the farm I have removed it for now until it can be improved. As for the NM one, apparently there can be some improvements in descriptions and what not. But if you would not mind, of course by your choosing, whenever you do manage to get free time I would like to go out with you and see how you do it, and that might help see where I need to make more improvements for the page for issues you encounter that are not properly answered in the guide! Shadeinthebox (talk) 16:29, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

Eternal Grove
should probably mention that you start from this outpost Houroftheowl (talk) 18:09, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
 * added it into the usage section, unless it should be mentioned at the top as well? Shadeinthebox (talk) 18:18, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I think it's enough there, thanks. Houroftheowl (talk) 19:20, 30 October 2019 (UTC)