User talk:Choytw/Build:Mo/E Tank Monk

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Testing


 * Tested yesterday (05/18/2008) in RA and AB (build with Kinetic armor).
 * In RA I had eight consecutive Flawless victories against teams of dual sins and dual monks. Went on to win thirteen battles (meaning three in TA).
 * In AB, worked well also - kept team and self alive against a mob with an MM, probably twenty foes - but found that I am being spiked much less often and so Balth Spirit was less of a help. Still found it useful, and necessary, during the spike intensive times.
 * Build with GoR
 * Have not tested yet, will at first chance and will post.

Notes I used Glimmer of Light over WoH because one, it's more spammable, and two WoH needs the target to be < 50% health in order to get full benefit. This won't always be the case and even if it is, WoH rends 202 (113 + 89 when < 50%) health (at 13 prayers) every three and three quarter seconds which equals 53.87 health / second. GoL gives 101 health every 1.25 seconds which equals 80.8 health / second. And on top of this, maybe you don't need 202 health going one place, maybe you need 100 here and 150 with this dude over there, not possible with WoH while it is with GoL. With WoH you have to wait for 3.75 seconds which can mean life or death in some situations.

See: This Page for some more detailed thoughts on WoH/GoLChoytw 16:56, 20 May 2008 (EDT)

Build Discussion
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Elite recharge Glyph + RoF works pretty well, probably a bit better than glimmer spam? Would allow for stronger prot spells and maintain your Divine energy management longer. Just an Idea. Shireen  former sysop  14:39, 19 May 2008 (EDT)


 * Not sure what you're in reference to when you say Elite recharge Glyph, but RoF may actually work better. I don't think it would work better against mediocre damage (i.e. 20 damage is negated so you're healed for 20 equaling 40 health total that would've had to have been healed to get the same effect) but definitely would against heavy hitting damage.  However, with that said, I would have to take points from somewhere to put into protection, and that will cause the other skills to be less effective possibly comprimising the healing power of the build.  As a note, I never died unless I got interrupted, so another self-heal isn't that important, although it might be nice if they're relatively close.  I will try it though when I get to my computer and see how it turns out.  Thanks! Choytw 15:06, 19 May 2008 (EDT)

- Glyph of Renewal - Elementalist Elite, try a swap for Glimmer and give it a try, youll be able keep divine spirit up a whole lot more. 20% enchant mod is very helpfull. Shireen  former sysop  18:52, 19 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Thanks for the suggestion, have added an alternate that after using, will probably be upgraded to primary. Choytw 10:18, 20 May 2008 (EDT)

(EC, this thing was huge to type) Needs Veil. And why Whisper? You already have Glimmer, it's a stronger and faster casting heal than Whisper. The only reason I can think of for that is because of Glimmer having 1 second recharge which can only anti-pressure so much. But then, Whisper doesn't help that much because Glimmer spamming is faster than Glimmer + Whisper spamming. In any case, Glimmer + Patient + Whisper is overkill; you simply can't spam enough to justify it.


 * Glimmer: 1/4 c 1r, 136 heal


 * = 1 cast / 1+1/4 seconds
 * = 136 hp / 1.25 seconds
 * = 108.8 hp/second


 * Whisper: 1 c 1 r, 127 heal


 * Glimmer = 1 second (1/4 cast + 3/4 aftercast)
 * Whisper = 1 3/4 second (1 cast + 3/4 aftercast)


 * (Glimmer heal) + (Whisper heal) / (Glimmer cast) + (Whisper cast)
 * =136 + 127 / 1 + 1.75 seconds
 * =263 / 2.75
 * =95.63 hp/second


 * As you can see, spamming Whisper and Glimmer one after another (assuming no HCT mods and whatnot) actually lowers the amount you heal per second. Not to mention you can't self-target, and it's half-range. So get rid of Whisper, put in Veil. - [[Image:GenericWikier1.jpg|19px]] Generic Wiki-er  14:47, 19 May 2008 (EDT)


 * What skill are you in reference to with Veil? The only two I saw were upkeeps which remove either a condition or a hex upon dropping them.  I don't disagree that GoL + Whisper rends less healing / sec, but it was chosen because it is the largest healing skill with a 1 sec recharge.  Making it the most healing for the time outside of the elite and patient spirit...either that or I missed another skill.  I may retract upon clarification of what 'Veil' is  ;-)  Choytw 15:06, 19 May 2008 (EDT)


 * Holy Veil. Otherwise, you run into a mesmer with Diversion, and you either a) lose half your bar or b) do nothing half the time. I still think Whisper doesn't fit that well into this; keep in mind that, actually, Glimmer > Glimmer will be faster than Glimmer > Whisper (1 1/2 seconds versus 2 seconds). - [[Image:GenericWikier1.jpg|19px]] Generic Wiki-er  15:10, 19 May 2008 (EDT)


 * Roger that. My only problem is that if it is precast upon seeing a mesmer on the opposing team (who might not have diversion), it lowers your e-regen.  An alternative is to simply cast Balth again once hexed since it is a skill that only needs cast once unless stripped.  And again, I agree with you that Glim + Glim > Glim + Whis, but unfortunately, that is ideal and not what actually happens.  During heavy spiking on myself and another ally, it usually goes like this:  GoL -> Patient Spirit -> Whisper because the other two are still recharging (even at 1r, still occurs -- seems there's no respect for how hard spiking makes life for the monk  lol).  And, I always use GoL and Patient Spirit on allies until I see a foe running towards me and then I start using whisper on allies combined with the other two healing skills. Choytw 15:20, 19 May 2008 (EDT)


 * I missed your comment about GoL, Patient, and whisper being overkill...believe me it isn't. Not when the monk is being spiked by two sins with an ele and another singling out another ally.  Nearly every other battle I have to use whisper in conjuction with the other two. Choytw 15:20, 19 May 2008 (EDT)
 * You know you can spam Glimmer w/ no downtime right?  16:33, 19 May 2008 (EDT)
 * How in the *bleep* can you do that?! lol  Choytw 16:36, 19 May 2008 (EDT)
 * That's what I was getting at...not only is it more powerful to spam Glimmer than Glimmer + Whisper, but it's faster, so your point about spamming heals is actually false...in that scenario it is faster to keep spamming Glimmer. Frvwfr2, unless I'm wrong, Glimmer will have a 1/4 second downtime. - [[Image:GenericWikier1.jpg|19px]] Generic Wiki-er  16:45, 19 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Let's see if I can put it a different way ;-)  There are usually four people screaming to be healed at once.  If I only had GoL and Patient Spirit, there would be time that both skills were down at the same time.  For example cast Patient (I'll go with this first since it has a longer downtime...just to be nice  lol) down 3s - immediately cast Gol - now you have no healing skills for 1.25 seconds because patient is still down.  It's in these gaps where another healing skill is absolutely necessary. Choytw 16:55, 19 May 2008 (EDT)
 * And actually, I had HSR (20%) on both my weapon and offhand reducing GoL to 1/2s and Patient to 1.5s and was still having downtime for healing when the HSR's weren't kicking in. It wasn't until I started creating the build that I relized having a divine HSR would be more beneficial.  Choytw 16:57, 19 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Your right, it is 1/4s downtime. And Choytw, have you heard of Aftercast?  17:05, 19 May 2008 (EDT)
 * He has. Reread the post. But Choy, here's where your logic is flawed. A) HSR mods and other recharge modifications (QZ, SQ, etc.) don't lower recharge past one second. B) You do have a heal within the next 1.25 seconds in that example after you use Patient then Glimmer. Glimmer's recharge is 1 second, and has an aftercast of 3/4 seconds. So you wait a quarter second and recast it. That's why most heals in the game are redundant when you have Glimmer on the bar; Glimmer is fairly powerful and will never have downtime. - [[Image:GenericWikier1.jpg|19px]] Generic Wiki-er  17:12, 19 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Yeah. Having a second heal is good though, as Diversion causes issues.  17:14, 19 May 2008 (EDT)
 * But the third is sort of over the top. Which brings me back to my original point. Ditch Whisper for Veil (but nevermind that now, this one's been moved to trash). - [[Image:GenericWikier1.jpg|19px]] Generic Wiki-er  17:16, 19 May 2008 (EDT)

Resetting Indent...Didn't realize that HSR's wouldn't lower past 1s...thanks for the heads up. I will try it tonight (not using whisper) to see how it works. However, with a 1/4s downtime, you still have time where you're not healing. I don't know the builds of my teammates in RA, but while I was able to keep the > 75% health on most battles, there were a few where the winner was the team whose monk could simply keep his team's health above the others (seems obvious but by that I mean there were a few wins where everyone had < 1/5 or so with me out of energy) and in these cases, the whispering helped. But again, I'll check it when I get home tonight to see if I can heal just as fast with only glimmer and GoL. I appreciate all the feedback...since this is my first build I wasn't sure what to expect ;-)  Choytw 17:20, 19 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Curious as to why it is trashed so suddenly especially since I used it last night and it did so well? I looked through the Monk builds and didn't see anything resembling it and have never been on an RA team when not playing monk which did so well.  I'll wait on replies before venting  lol Choytw 17:23, 19 May 2008 (EDT)
 * GenericWikier, how would Veil make this build any better? It is an upkeep and as such decreases your energy which is vital for a monk simply for something that might happen?  And even if it did, all you need to do is cast a non-essential skill like Balthazar's Spirit - no need for Veil whatsoever. Choytw 17:27, 19 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Veil can provide basically almost instant Hex removal, which tops most Hex removers. That ability can mess up a lot of spikes. Anyway, Tanking is stupid in PvP, and something like Rend/Gaze or any enchantment removal gives you a long downtime on your defense. A Monk with Return or Smoke Powder Defense provides better defense. --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  17:29, 19 May 2008 (EDT)
 * At the cost of energy. I don't deny that if Veil wasn't an upkeep, I'd include it in a heartbeat.  As for Kinetic, there are very few remove all enchants - the entire time I was on last night - about 4 hours - I had it removed twice.  Both times, I had to heal myself more, but didn't die.  The armor is not necessary, it simply makes healing easier since you're less focused on yourself.  I can't say I like getting the build canned, but would like people to try it out first - it worked better for me than any build I've tried on wiki so far.  I went here first and didn't find that worked nearly as well, which is the reason I set out to make a new one.  Thanks for the feedback! Choytw 17:36, 19 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Kinetic renews and becomes the first enchantment in line, making commonly brought enchantment removers an easy counter to your defense. Also, debating that Holy Veil isn't good is just stupid. Most of the time, a Hex comes in early on an important character and the energy degen from Veil hardly hurts. If this faced up against meta, it would be slaughtered. Your energy management overall is practically none, and being forced to spam skills every 8 seconds really does hurt it. --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  17:40, 19 May 2008 (EDT)
 * 30s after zoning, I have my energy recovered. Then, I cast Patient and have energy recovered before I have to recast.  During battle, it is renewed simply by healing.  As for Veil, cure hex works and doesn't cause e-regen to be lessened.  If you are downing Kinetic because it just 'might' be removed, then Veil is an even worse bet because it just 'might' need to be used, but unlike Kinetic, Veil is a constant e-degen on top of healing, kinetic is renewed when you do your job so there is no extra energy required to keep it up - only what you would've used anyway. Choytw 17:44, 19 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Did you catch the part where the armor isn't necessary? It simply makes it easier to stay alive.  Basically, GoL, Patient, and whisper are enough to keep the team alive, everything else is simply to make your job easier, not to make it possible. Choytw 17:48, 19 May 2008 (EDT)
 * If the armor wasn't necessary, than I would save a skill slot and my secondary profession. Practically all lower level PvP Monks need some sort survivability, such as Disciplined Stance, Return, Smoke Powder Defense, etc. Saying that the extra armor (your defense) isn't necessary means that you will most likely fail. --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  17:53, 19 May 2008 (EDT)
 * No, it simply means that the other skills make survivability possible and the armor makes it easy - spotless soul is not necessary, it simply makes healing easier (see my point now?). Again, did you miss the part where I said that in four hours I only lost my armor twice and both times I was able to stay alive?  Powder merely halves damage and blinds for 5s, Disciplined stance has the exact same drawback that kinetic has - it can be removed (a little hypocritical or just harsh because kinetic is diff?) return takes you to an ally who should be in combat and thus close to another enemy.  I'm sure return is sweet for non-monks - since the monk should be open, but seems a little short-sighted for healing professions.  Please, instead of regurgitating the same comments, confront my objections. Choytw 18:48, 19 May 2008 (EDT)


 * Either way, the build has gotten a very low rating and the probability of it getting into any category persides trash is practically nil. However, if you want to keep, I (or you) can move it to your namespace. --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  18:49, 19 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Honestly, I'd prefer to keep it here even if it means it's deleted. I have it saved on my character which is all that matters.  I just couldn't believe how well it worked and wanted to help others out.  And honestly, I'm surprised that the comments and the 0 ratings were from people who hadn't tried it out.  And you can tell from the comments they hadn't tried it (i.e. too much energy required!  no e-management! too many healing skills!) when if they would've actually tried the builds (which I thought was implied with testing) they might've - not necessarily - had a different opinion.  True, they may not've liked it, but at least their criticism would've been valid and might've actually helped me out.  And before I get hazed, stop and ask yourself if there is any truth to what I am saying.  (this is not regarding those people who started the discussion with me - thanks for the input!) Choytw 19:30, 19 May 2008 (EDT)

I know what your going through bro. Im one of the old school veterins of this place. There are a lot of people whom are very biased towards what works and what doesn't (heavily influenced by Meta, and some good valid standards that exist), any time you try a paradigm shift with these guys it hurts. I personally have submitted 9-10 good builds that I honestly use (and use well) and the comunity usually doesnt like them. But as you can see, once you get past the knee jerk reactions they do discuss build theory, and a few will even help you out on improving or showing how else that thought process could be done. Stick around bro, and don't get discouraged. This beast is what it is. Thanks for contributing. Shireen  former sysop  19:45, 19 May 2008 (EDT)


 * Thanks ;-) Choytw 19:47, 19 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Look at it this way:Is 1/4s of the time not casting worth a skill slot?  19:49, 19 May 2008 (EDT)

Dude, when it goes to your personal space, slap this puppy on there. =) Shireen  former sysop  19:55, 19 May 2008 (EDT)


 * Creative=/=Good.  19:56, 19 May 2008 (EDT)

lol thanks bud, will do. Frvwfr2, it is if without it the build fails. I tried tonight without it, and there was too much preasure (3 sin group) so I had to use it. Creative !always= good but !always= bad as well ;-)  I'm telling you from my experience, it has worked better than any monk build I've tried elswhere.  Maybe I'll be the only one using it and will continue to beat the other two monk teams  lol (granted, the two monk teams builds had to've been utterly awful...should never have happened). Choytw 20:41, 19 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Pretty cool build. Was skeptical at first especially considering the insane armor deal, but it actually worked really well.  I might switch the fourth skill for something else, but I absolutely love that all the skills that are spammed are 5 energy.  What was freakin awesome was that I never was hurting for energy provided I was the focus.  If they layed off because they weren't damaging me much, then I had to conserve energy.  My only suggestion is to switch our the fourth skill for mending touch - seemed to be the only weekness besides interrupts...but I think that's something not easily gotten around.  Nice job bro!Allanon 00:06, 20 May 2008 (EDT)

Alternate Added
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Thanks Shireen for the suggestion, I thought GoR had a longer recharge time - being as it recharges before Divine Spirit will expire, definitely seems like a good idea. Choytw 09:52, 20 May 2008 (EDT)

Addressing Build Concerns
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Too many heals: I've been thinking about this a lot because what is being said about aftercast and the impossibleness of having to have a third heal makes sense...but then I think about my experiences and know that it is. So while thinking about how to reconcile, I relized that this comes about from skills like blindness and such. A lot of times I'll notice that my skills are recharging slower and so I have time to get off a third heal before GoL recharges. An easy way to remedy this is to include a skill such as Mending Touch...but what if it gets interrupted (wait 6 seconds) or you didn't catch Diversion on you didn't have enough time to cast Balthazar's Spirit (my build) or remove Veil (suggested modification)? Now you have a build which has an inadequate number of healing skills in this new situation. Isn't a good build supposed to be judged on how it can overcome obstacles? Doesn't this build do that? If you don't believe so, then please post why you believe such. Choytw 10:45, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Quite simply, the build is terrible. Healing through mass damage is the most inefficient way to go about monking, protting helps you deal with pressure far better. Kinetic armor is an awful prot skill - it only targets yourself, +armor doesnt really do much against the most dangerous builds anyway, and enchant removal is one of the most common forms of shutdown - which renders this even more useless than it normally is. You should never add redundant skills into a build on the offchance that you get interrupted or diverted - you're supposed to play smartly to avoid that. That's not what Universality it about, it's how it adapts to new situations, not how much you can gimp your bar by trying to stuff it full of counters.
 * Also, the entire concept of 'tanking' with a monk is wrong. You don't need to tank, you aren't supposed to tank. Disciplined Stance/Shield Bash/Shielding Hands/Shield of Absorption all do the job of 'tanking' far better than this entire bar dedicated to tanking when you need to, without gimiping the bar in the slightest. --[[Image:Ibreaktoilets_Signature.jpg|User:Ibreaktoilets|20px]]Tab  Moo  11:00, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Healing mass damage is inefficient: It is?...so instant removal of damage is inferior to skills like healing hands...which is an enchant and thus can be removed reducing it's effectiveness?  Tell you what, I'll modify the posted build by switching earth magic to Prot, add a +1 rune and then try this when I get home.  If it works just as well, I'll leave the changes up - if it doesn't, wouldn't it make sense to keep it as it is?
 * Even more useless than it normally is: how? My only prot enchant is Kinetic which I can survive without.  Also, it is renewed by simply Monking and doesn't introduce more energy requirements, and time spent not healing, by recasting Shielding Hands.
 * Not supposed to tank: Isn't that what I would be doing if I took Shielding Hands or one of your stances? I would be mitigating damage through a skill, i.e. tanking...?
 * Entire bar dedicated to tanking: WTH? One skill is designed for tanking...Oh you mean the build title?  Please don't tell me you're letting the title color your entire view of the build?  Only one skill is used for tanking, the rest are used for healing/removal of conditions and hexes/and e-management.
 * You may be right in what you're saying, but I didn't get that from the way you expressed your ideas, mind rephrasing? Choytw 11:12, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Another question for you, what do you consider the most dangerous builds? Choytw 11:20, 20 May 2008 (EDT)

Build Has Changed...
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So...since the build has changed and now has an alternate, what is the process for resubmitting it? And is there anyway to keep some people from voting? lol j/k Choytw 11:18, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * You can put a note on the admin noticeboard to ask for a vote whipe. Also, i'd move it back to trial. &not; Klump  eet  15:20 {GMT} 20/05/MMVIII
 * Roger that, thanks bud. I should've known that the title alone would have drawn criticism.  I also don't believe you should try to tank, but usually the peeps in RA are so bad, you practically stand still and heal them anyway so a little extra armor is always nice...hindsight is 20/20 right?  ;-) Choytw 11:27, 20 May 2008 (EDT)

Rating Removed (I break Toilets)
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So repeatedly getting to TA from RA and winning a few fights (in TA with an RA team)...doesn't mean anything? The fact that I've tried other builds here and have failed doesn't mean anything? If you would, would you please address your concerns here so I have a chance to counter before removing my rating? After all, it isn't like my votes changed anything lol. Choytw 11:25, 20 May 2008 (EDT)


 * Firstly, the build hasn't been removed. No, getting from RA to TA doesn't mean anything, you could do it with echo and mending if you had a good team and easy enemies. &not; Klump  eet  15:30 {GMT} 20/05/MMVIII


 * Thanks again Klump...changed sub-heading ;-) And I would disagree simply due to 'repeatedly'.  Isn't a build supposed to be judged on how well and consistently it performs in-game?  If not, then what are we supposed to be rating against...how well we think it'll do?  I don't know how many times I've tried a build from a guild member that I thought was crap and it turned out to be pretty efficient. Choytw 11:37, 20 May 2008 (EDT)


 * I've addressed the problems before, but I'll simplify it for you.


 * The entire concept of tanking is flawed.
 * Healing is inefficient as compared to prot.
 * The bar contains three skills do the same job as WoH but with less efficiency.
 * No ranged condition removal, which means if you go vs any source of blind, you're going to have to run about chasing your frontline.
 * Terrible energy management if you're vs intelligent opponents.
 * No veil means you'll be destroyed by Diversion, Wail of Doom, Faintheartedness (on the frontline) etc.

It's just a flawed concept. Protting the shit out of someone that takes aggro then spamming heals might work in pve, but it doesn't in RA where people can switch targets and ruin your plan. Compare it to a standardish RA bar:

That can prot its self and other allys, it can survive being stomped by an entire team of physicals long enough to wipe them, it can heal more efficiently, remove conditions more efficiently and stands a chance against hexes. This can't do any of that. --Tab  Moo  11:33, 20 May 2008 (EDT)


 * No need to be condescending Moo ;-) I'll address your comments and then hope to get a reply?
 * Concept of tanking is flawed
 * This is exactly what most of the suggestions do with the exception of Return (which itself has its drawbacks). For example, the suggestion in your build uses shield bash and disciplined stance.  Shield bash is a one effect skill with a 20s recharge, and disciplined stance can be removed just as easily as Kinetic by nearly every sin out there.  Possibly because everybody and their brother now uses stances on their monk?
 * This isn't a prot build. Do you can all healing builds?  Then this isn't a valid reason, in and of itself, to condemn a build.
 * If you'll read my note at the bottom of the build page you'll see that even if the ally is below 50% health (and thus gets the extra heal) it still only heals for I think it was 60 health/sec while GoL, by itself, heals for 80health/sec.
 * Forgot about Mend Condition - it has now been added (seem, I'm not such a hardazz ;-))
 * I disagree. Balth is a fast recharging skill which can be recast if stripped.  And you are almost always being spiked in RA (even AB) simply because you're a monk.  Besides, with the alternate, you have another form of energy management.
 * No Veil: A work around for Diversion is to cast Balth again. Wail of Doom can be removed with cure hex. Faintheartedness: no longer on frontline due to Mend condition and even if you were, cure hex covers it or simply healing yourself.
 * Your build obviously works really well, but it is not the only build viable simply because it does work. Choytw 11:58, 20 May 2008 (EDT)

He has a point, winning only 3-4 fights consistantly in RA does not mean anything, consistantly getting to TA from RA 2 out of 3 times IS significant. Your variant build Does need the armor put back on it for self survivability. That will give you Excellent e-managment, Survivability, and leave 5 slots left open for the monking bar (which is about average for most monks). Since we 'solved' your e-management problem with renewal, get rid of balthazars spirit. Take only Two Heal Spells. If your wanting to go the hybrid route... Try out Gift of Health, Guardian, Reversal of Fortune, Holy Veil, Dismiss Condition. You should be able to spam those pretty well. Another setup you might want to try for HA support, Convert Hexes/Holy Veil, Guardian, RoF, Draw Conditions, (The anti KD enchant). Your gonna be able to work really well with an RC monk. Most people do not 'get' healing style builds. Which is why your getting so much flack for what your submitting. Healing VS Protection are two very different styles, though the general consensus is that prot > heal. Though if you look at a lot of the builds I submit, I favor the healing style builds myself. Shireen  former sysop  11:47, 20 May 2008 (EDT)

The "Number of Random Arena Wins" approach to assessing a build.
 * 1) Take 25-30 people and let them pick their own random build that they want to use.
 * 2) Take 4 of those people randomly and stick them on a team.
 * 3) Take 3 more of those people randomly and put them on your team.
 * 4) Judge the effectiveness of your build in isolation based on the outcome of this 4v4 match.
 * 5) If you win, face another 4 random people from another random group of 25-30 people with randomly chosen builds.
 * 6) Repeat ad nauseum.

The "Theorycraft" method of assessing a build. - PANIC!   <font color="#D70000"> sexiness!  11:55, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * 1) Assume you are going to be facing decent players with a decent 4-man build.
 * 2) Assume they are using the common skills that decent players use.
 * 3) Assess the build's ability to deal with these common skills.
 * 4) Assume they are using oddball, gimmicky skills.
 * 5) Assess the build's weakness to these gimmicks with relation to the popularity of these gimmicks.
 * 6) Compare these things to other builds that attempt to perform the same jobs.
 * 7) Make a decision.
 * I agree that the Theorycraft is the method that should be used...and I would argue what I did use and is evidenced by how well it performs in TA after having an RA group (i.e. you're fighting good team builds with a generally poorly put-together team from RA). I also believe that I've given detailed reasons why the objections aren't necessarily valid.  No build will counter every counter there is, but this one seems to do a good job of countering most. Choytw 12:06, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Whatever. Feel free to continue spamming Glimmer on charge. Trying to help you realise there's much better ways of doing things clearly isn't going to work. Don't expect to get a 'tank monk' that spams heals on charge vetted in a hurry though. --[[Image:Ibreaktoilets_Signature.jpg|User:Ibreaktoilets|20px]]<font color="Black">Tab  <font color="Black">Moo  12:01, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Well, if you think WoH is better, then explain to me please how my reasoning was wrong. I'm not open to change (as evidence by alternate and changes to main), I just don't take you word as gospel truth, it needs explained since I'm seeing a different view. Choytw 12:03, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Ok then. Healing per second isn't how to look at things. You want healing per energy invested and healing per second over short periods of time. When you're running a bar with some real prots rather than tanking skills, you prot people to minimize the damage they take untill they're under 50%, then heal them up in the most efficient way possible. --[[Image:Ibreaktoilets_Signature.jpg|User:Ibreaktoilets|20px]]<font color="Black">Tab  <font color="Black">Moo  12:06, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Healing / energy investment...both WoH and GoL are 5e and GoL returns more per sec...since their energy is the same...? Still not seeing how WoH > GoL? As for protting, the way I look at it is most protting skills can be easily removed whereas my healing skills can rarely be interrupted (i.e. 1/4 cast time and condition/hex removal).  In my opinion healing trumps protting...but even if I'm wrong, a good healing build > a mediocre prot build any day of the week (granted an excellent prot may > excellent healing) Choytw 12:10, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * There's no such thing as a good healing build. It's just 2 heals, a condi removal and a hex removal relying on how fast you can react. Ench removal is only an issue with prots if you're terrible at timing when you put them up. --[[Image:Ibreaktoilets_Signature.jpg|User:Ibreaktoilets|20px]]<font color="Black">Tab  <font color="Black">Moo  12:12, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I would think the definition of a healing build is one that relies on healing to mitigate damage - this one does. Enchant removal is always an issue once the mes or whoever sees you're a prot monk.  What are you going to do when they start witholding their removals to wait for your cast?...simply not cast it?  Now your allies are getting screwed.  If, on the other hand you're referring to single instance skills (reversal of fortune), then you're talking about skills that 'heal' for less than GoL with more energy cost. Still waiting to hear how WoH is better than GoL? Choytw 12:31, 20 May 2008 (EDT)


 * So my theory of utilizing a mesmer to increase reaction times with a heal bar doesnt count as improving the heal build??? [- I know that was totally off topic =) -] <font face="arial" color="Green">Shireen   former sysop  12:21, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * That's why it's a bad build - there's no need to have fast casts if you just run a half decent bar and stop the spikes happening in the first place. --[[Image:Ibreaktoilets_Signature.jpg|User:Ibreaktoilets|20px]]<font color="Black">Tab  <font color="Black">Moo  12:23, 20 May 2008 (EDT)


 * Had problems juggling it, but spamability is there...

[build prof=Mo/E ear=8 pro=10 div=12][Dismiss Condition][Guardian][Reversal of Fortune][Holy Veil][Shielding Hands][Divine Spirit][Glyph of Renewal][Kinetic Armor][/build]

<font face="arial" color="Green">Shireen  former sysop  12:06, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Very little healing ability. &not; Klump  eet  16:10 {GMT} 20/05/<font face="Times New Roman">MMVIII
 * Wait!..what?? I thought healing was bad?? lol  j/k  looking at his build now.  Choytw 12:12, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * No, healing is good, but heal/prot hybrids are better, and having many spammable healing skills is bad when just one of them is enough. &not; Klump  eet  16:14 {GMT} 20/05/<font face="Times New Roman">MMVIII
 * I'll agree with you. Now that I have a fast recharging condition removal, I'll get rid of Heal Other and put in another prot.  Anyone have any suggestions? Choytw 12:17, 20 May 2008 (EDT)


 * I know I know, but this was just an example of how it could be done, of course you guys can dive into it and tweak untill it works. This might even work on a boon prot variant... hrm.... <font face="arial" color="Green">Shireen   former sysop  12:16, 20 May 2008 (EDT)

Prot Skill to Replace 3rd Healing Skill
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Didn't get any replies so thought I would move it out so it's more noticeable. Choytw 12:32, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Start over instead. This is the last time I'm going to bother saying it, but tanking is stupid. --[[Image:Ibreaktoilets_Signature.jpg|User:Ibreaktoilets|20px]]<font color="Black">Tab  <font color="Black">Moo  12:33, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * The jury is still out (for me) about Kinetic, but can you explain how Kinetic is tanking while some of the suggested stances are not? Choytw 12:46, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Kinetic alone isn't tanking - it's Balth Spirit and Kinetic together with the mentality that you're tanking that makes it so. By its self, Kinetic is just an inferior version of stances. --[[Image:Ibreaktoilets_Signature.jpg|User:Ibreaktoilets|20px]]<font color="Black">Tab  <font color="Black">Moo  12:49, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Inferior because it can be removed...just like stances can by every sin now-a-days since stances are more and more commonly used? Balthazar is used because you're the freakin focus 9 times out of 10.  I could probably get rid of divine spirit and not even miss it.  Truth be told, I didn't use it once after about two hours of using the build - didn't need to.  The title was probably poorly named - but hell, I couldn't think of a good one and a skill with 60 armor kind've stands out. Choytw 13:00, 20 May 2008 (EDT)

Standard 'hybrid' bars are Gift of Health, Holy Viel, RoF, Guardian, Dismiss Conditions. Give that a try and see how it works. You can also swap RoF for Prot Spirit or Bond if you think it will work (But that will, of course, make it look and behave like the wiki cookie cutters out here... ) <font face="arial" color="Green">Shireen  former sysop  12:36, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Will give it a try Shireen and will post back what I find...although it'll probably be contrary to the 'general' consesus ;-) Choytw 12:47, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Not in 4v4. You need the elite heal, be it WoH or ZB for it to be an effective 4v4 bar. Gift is for when you have a second monk. Also, the 'cookie cutters are bad' mentality won't get you anywhere. GW has been out long enough that practically everything that works well has been found and done before. --[[Image:Ibreaktoilets_Signature.jpg|User:Ibreaktoilets|20px]]<font color="Black">Tab  <font color="Black">Moo  12:41, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Eh, I don't think it's that 'cookie cutters are bad', more like, 'anyone can make a cookie cutter work'. Perhaps the build I used can't be made to work by everyone (i.e. too much energy to keep kinetic up  -- obviously bs since I did not have trouble).  Maybe that's why Shireen likes his different builds as well...maybe it fits our playing styles better..who knows.  But I for one, don't think the cookie cutters are bad, just boring. (but tbh, the majority of the ones supposedly rated well on this site failed miserably...but again, maybe it's my playing style) Choytw 12:52, 20 May 2008 (EDT)

WoH > GoL?
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Either group you fall into, why do you believe so? Choytw 12:54, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * 220 healing > 110, basically. &not; Klump  eet  17:01 {GMT} 20/05/<font face="Times New Roman">MMVIII
 * 110@1.25s > 220@3.75s No? And that's not even taking into consideration all the times WoH is used when the allie is NOT < 50% health. Choytw 13:07, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * As I keep saying, run a better bar and that's all the healing you'll need. --[[Image:Ibreaktoilets_Signature.jpg|User:Ibreaktoilets|20px]]<font color="Black">Tab  <font color="Black">Moo  13:10, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * (EC) You're not going to be needing glimmer every 1.25 seconds, and energy would run out fast though. Glimmer isn't useless, but the huge healing from WoH is more effective to counter spikes etc. Also, with more than one healing skill (as here), the other one(s) can be used in the recharge. BTW, i'm not sure whether you're allowed to change your comments. &not; Klump  eet  17:11 {GMT} 20/05/<font face="Times New Roman">MMVIII
 * Change comments? Choytw 13:14, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * as here &not; Klump  eet  17:16 {GMT} 20/05/<font face="Times New Roman">MMVIII
 * I believe it was changed before it was commented on thus making it a line not in contention with a reply. I'm not even sure why I removed it - seems to fit perfectly with what I'm trying to say. Choytw 13:21, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Correction, it wasn't removed, it was added. And it was added before any replies.  Seems like good practice to modify your comments if they haven't been replied to yet...right?  Keeps things cleaner? Choytw 13:23, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I don't want this to be the reason someone decides I need banned...so can anyone clarify? If you remove or add a comment before they have been replied to, is this a bannable offense? Choytw 13:51, 20 May 2008 (EDT)


 * Word of healing is stronger than glimmer of light. If you want to see a good example, grab a mesmer primary and compare the two on keeping your team up. Even with divine favor WoH out does Glimmer. The only exception to this would be if you ran a boon prot, but then you would totally nerf your energy to high heven. Glimmer, imop, might be viable on a Zelots Fire build, but I personally would take WoH over Glimmer, even on a pure heal build. It takes 15 energy to get roughly 300 points of healing out of it (in approx 3,1/2 seconds) While WoH can heal close to 290 in 3,1/2. Spam healing is nice, allows for quick reactivity, but your e-management is essential to continue healing. Try running mesmer/monk bars and you will LEARN how to manage energy and appreciate which skills give the best bang for the buck. Consider it a training exercise. And from what I see of your monking style, it would be an excellent exercise to get your personal skills up a notch or two.  Disclaimer: I am not suggesting that mes monking is superior to Monk primary (though it can be in the right situation) but mearly an excellent way to train and teach people about energy efficiency and alternate methods to the monking formula. <font face="arial" color="Green">Shireen  former sysop  13:18, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I see you point, they each heal for 5 but one does more 'sometimes'. The problem is that I was finding with WoH that if I healed one guy, I'd need a large heal on two more.  WoH wouldn't come up fast enough until they were < 50% life.  But by this time, I had 2 more people at <50% and WoH wouldn't recharge fast enough to raise them.  On the other hand, GoL casts fast enough that I can keep everyone above 50% so I never have problems.
 * Again, I see your point (and maybe I need an exercise) but this build works very well keeping everyone up > 75% health. I'm not sure how clear I was on my explanation, so please feel free to ask away. Choytw 13:27, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Actually, 75% was a little optimistic, I had it right the first time with 50...but to keep the change nazis off my back (-)), I'll make an adendum vs a change. Choytw 13:29, 20 May 2008 (EDT)


 * Thats why you pack your 2nd heal skill to save the other person. That way you can alternate primary healing button with secondary healing button, or (Gasp, I can't believe im supporting hybrid theory here, ewww!) or you start slapping down damage mitigators (Guardian, RoF, Heal Breeze [yeah, I said it!], prot spirit) to give you time for your second heal to go off. The main thing with prot is that your slowing down incomming damage. Think of it like this, your slowing down damage so that the healing to damage ratio makes up for that 3 second cast time on your two available healing spells. The reason you pack two heal spells and other prots is that the protection spells have additional usages, and allows you to 'theoretically' adapt to multiple situations. Prot is e-management from a spam perspective. Thats the argument they are giving, and it is a valid point. <font face="arial" color="Green">Shireen   former sysop  13:34, 20 May 2008 (EDT)


 * I understand their argument ;-)  but I still see prot as more like, "I'm going to try to heal you" instead of, "you've just been healed".  And the reason why is because of removals.  Prot, SoA, SH, and others are all duration enchants which are very easily removed (espetially PS since you have that lovely and recognizable symbol flash above your head).  So if they are, your healing was ineffective.  Now this may be the wrong view to have, but it's why I created a build which didn't rely on prots - only on low cost spammable skills.  But, I have changed my views before and may do so again concerning this.  Tonight when I go into PVP, I'll get a prot skill or two a whirl and see how it goes.  If I fair better, then I'll keep.  Then I'll try the same with WoH (My build originally included WoH but it wouldn't work with the other skills...maybe WoH requires prot skills because of the long recharge while GoL does not?). Choytw 13:43, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * WoH Does not require prot. There are LOTS and lots and lots of GVG support builds that run without prot on the bar.  Most of your prot is there to keep the monk up anyhoot (survivability = Continued healing). <font face="arial" color="Green">Shireen   former sysop  14:04, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I'll take a look at those builds then to see what they're made up of. That's honestly one area I never check[ed](post-add) since I've never run GvG before.  Too much preasure to perform when it's people you know  lol. Choytw 14:14, 20 May 2008 (EDT)


 * In my 'heal bars' there is a strong emphasis on condition and hex removal, as that is damage prevention of a sort. I still only run about two 'true' healing spells.  If you go healing you have to keep the party clean.  When running prot parties can be a bit more dirty as direct damage isn't as much of an issue. <font face="arial" color="Green">Shireen   former sysop  13:40, 20 May 2008 (EDT)

Armor Cap
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I thought that I had read somewhere that there is a cap to how much armor you can have...but I search wiki and didn't see this. Anyone know a link off-hand? Thanks Choytw 16:46, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * +24 is the max cap, unless a single skill gives you more than that.  16:48, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Roger that, so I'm reaping all the armor from Kinetic...cool. started to get worried about that. Choytw 16:55, 20 May 2008 (EDT)

Moved to Choytw's Userspace
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 * To save it from the big delete Bat of doom <font face="arial" color="Green">Shireen  former sysop  12:30, 21 May 2008 (EDT)