Archive talk:Me/A Perma Shadow Boss Farmer

This is a REALLY slow farmer--Goldenstar 23:47, 31 December 2007 (EST)
 * You'd be better using A/E Solo Green Farmer. Plus anything with hex removal kills you too. Not literally. &mdash; Abedeus  [[Image:User Abedeus Sig.jpg|19px]] 04:09, 1 January 2008 (EST)


 * The build doesn't have "Perma Shadow" because of the Deadly Paradox nerf. That and the fact that it's ridiculously slow. It'll take like at least the full duration of one Shadow Form to kill a weak enemy, let alone a boss. --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  08:41, 1 January 2008 (EST)


 * 1) Is perma shadow, dont know where u get the idea it isnt. 2) doesnt tak3e that long.  3) designed to kill bosses no other build can, like Fenrir.  Give me another build that can do this consistantly and u can talk trash about this all u want. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]]  Ressmonkey (talk)  08:48, 1 January 2008 (EST)


 * Err, can't a 55 monk just slam the skills on Fenrir? Or even the Corsair farmer? Or the MS/DB Farmer? Anyway, one with Sliver Armor can kill Fenrir AND all his groupies in a faster time than this. Anyway, Perma Shadow was only achievable when DP was a 50% recharger, not a 33$. You can keep it up for a while, but not forever. --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  10:01, 1 January 2008 (EST)


 * 1) U can keep it forever, go and test it if u doubt me. 2) tried 55 odest work.  3) dont know what corsair farmer is (assuming its a mo/d 55).  4) MS/DB doesnt work, tried that too.  5) 130 derv doesnt work, tried that (u didnt mention this, but I tried it).  6) sliver armor doesnt target fenrir first unless u get really lucky, so that doesnt kill him either.  7) Glad defense warrior doesnt work either.  8) if theres anything I missed, let me know. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]]  Ressmonkey (talk)  10:07, 1 January 2008 (EST)

(Starting new line) And why wouldn't at least the Corsair Farmer (which, as you guessed, is a modded 55 Mo/D) not work? It can counter the degen from bleeding and kill his groupies so his Leader's Comfort won't be effective. Anyway, who would want to farm Fenrir compared to other things? I mean, there's Griffons, Mountain Trolls, Corsairs, etc. His drop isn't really that good compared to other ones (Mallyx's Defense and all greens that have the same stats). Still, doesn't get over the fact it's ridiculously slow. Anyway, I saw another Shadow Form build that had a chart on how to keep Shadow Form up indefinately. IDK if it still works, but take a look at it (I forget name of the build). -- Guild of  Deals  10:14, 1 January 2008 (EST)
 * Special Corsair farmer??? God, killing corsairs isn't so hard, Even a N/Mo Boss Farmer can do it. Simply add Blood Renewal instead of Vampiric Touch/Bite, and add something as a cover hex instead of the Watchful spirit (the best is Parasitic Bond with 0+3 Curses, it heals more than 55 hp). With this and some practice, farming Shagu isn't a problem (Torturers are hard though). If I can do that with a necro, a monk should be much better. And that farm takes 5 mins if you go out to drink a coffee between foes :) Voidwalker 10:50, 1 January 2008 (EST)


 * The corsair farmer cant do it because of his 3 regen, knockdowns, and leaders comfort. Just simply not enough dmaage there to kill a boss with even minor heals.  Also, the other build was called A/Me Perma Shadow, which no longer exists because it got trashed due to the increase in the cost of deadly paradox, not because of 33%.  This build has better e-management so the 15 energy cost shouldnt be a problem. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]]  Ressmonkey (talk)  11:18, 1 January 2008 (EST)
 * Shadow form can be kept up Indefinatly (though it is dfficult you have to get timing right) but you still have the energy cost of keeping Shadow form up 100% (15 from A.E and 10 from shadow form means your looking at aroun 15+10+10 for a full round that's 35e every 30 secs or so. A 55 could do it (N/Mo SV (the one mentiond above)) which could quite easily take it out Phe Nax Kian [[Image:Phenaxkian_christmas_sig.gif|19px]] 11:28, 1 January 2008 (EST)


 * Savage Slash > N/Mo --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]] Ressmonkey (talk)  11:29, 1 January 2008 (EST)
 * In case u didnt get that: Savage slash pwns N/Mo. Also pwns Mo/D cuz Shield of Judgment gets interrupted. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]]  Ressmonkey (talk)  11:34, 1 January 2008 (EST)
 * Let me ask you: who cares about an interrupt? Prot. Spirit, and HBreeze can be recasted almost instantly, and you have to wait 10 secs for the elite. It's just not a problem. Voidwalker 18:14, 1 January 2008 (EST)

ok does everyone ACTUALLY KNOW what this build does its a sliver farmer but instead of sliver it uses empathy its fast enough in hm its awesome cause they attack SOOOO fast so its only a BOSS farmer not a mob farmer although it can--Lucky121 (talk *pvxcontribs ) 21:30, 1 January 2008 (EST)
 * Ty. It should also be noted that this build is for killing things that sliver doesnt target or doesnt kill fast enough because of healing, small mobs, etc.  Some of these bosses are Fenrir, Kyril Oathwarden, Jacqui The Reaver, and others. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]]  Ressmonkey (talk)  12:17, 1 January 2008 (EST)

Just letting everybody know, this cna kill a melee boss in HM in about 50 seconds. Just like Archive:N/Me Midnight Solo which is in Good, so I dont think speed is an issue here. ---  Ressmonkey (talk)  15:13, 1 January 2008 (EST)

YOU CAN STILL MAINTAIN SHADOW FORM So tired of people not getting that. – Ichigo 724  18:16, 1 January 2008 (EST)

You only have empaty for attackers, needs backfire for spellcasters.-- Fire Tock  19:23, 1 January 2008 (EST)
 * No you don't. Spellcasters can't cast spells so they try to wand you. – Ichigo 724 [[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 19:43, 1 January 2008 (EST)

Oh yeah. Forgot.-- Fire Tock  21:52, 1 January 2008 (EST)

True u can still maintain SF perm - but as stated - its pretty useless - i gave up perma when they nerfed the first time--XistdedOne 22:26, 1 January 2008 (EST)


 * I guess Shadow Form can be kept continously... But it still doesn't stop the fact it's ridiculously slow. Even foes with a self heal like Healing Signet can usually overcome Empathy, despite the Variants. Better farming builds can not only solo bosses, but can kill the entire mob too. --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  16:05, 2 January 2008 (EST)
 * Sliver can't even frag a boss with few enemies around, nor has the running capabilities (to the boss) of this. – Ichigo 724 [[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 16:06, 2 January 2008 (EST)
 * And lolwut? gw:Ignorance. – Ichigo 724 [[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 16:07, 2 January 2008 (EST)
 * Or Diversion for better e-management. A 48 second recharge Healsig is pretty useless. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]]  Ressmonkey (talk)  16:23, 2 January 2008 (EST)
 * And this can kill the entire mob... Just not time-effective. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]] Ressmonkey (talk)  16:28, 2 January 2008 (EST)

It shouldn't take you like half an hour or more to kill an entire mob with a farming build. Any good farming build needs to be quick, effective, and easy. -- Guild of  Deals  18:40, 2 January 2008 (EST)
 * Dude.... Not meant to kill mobs.... --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]] Ressmonkey (talk)  18:46, 2 January 2008 (EST)

Why not go Illusion instead of Domination, with (sig of) clumsiness, phantom/accumulated pain and conjure phantasm/nightmare Rickyvantof 07:32, 8 January 2008 (EST)
 * Cuz empathy (in HM) will cause more health loss than all those skills combined. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]] Ressmonkey (talk)  07:35, 8 January 2008 (EST)

This build sux
This build is to farm melee greens, which are worthless anyways. SF can't be permanant, and it is ridiculously SLOW. Risus 6:58 AM (GMT -6) January 8, 2008.
 * Yay slowness! [[Image:BaineImg.jpg|19px|||My Talk]] BaineTheBotter  08:03, 8 January 2008 (EST)
 * There are a few melee greens which can be worth money )even if they're not still a way to get money isn't it) I'll say this one more time SHADOW FORM CAN BE KEPT UP PERMANENTLY. So what if it's slow? ever heard the Proverb-slow and steady wins the race?-It might be slow but if you don't screw up your chain you're pretty much guaranteed to succeed. PheNaxKian  (T /c) [[Image:Phenaxkian_sig_phoenix.jpg|19px]] 08:22, 8 January 2008 (EST)

Equipment
I'm not 100% on this but i'm fairly sure to keep shadow form up you need a 20% longer enchant. mod (it's not listed if it's supposed to be). PheNaxKian  (T /c) 08:25, 8 January 2008 (EST)
 * I think you do need enchanting but be careful. You cast Arcane Echo then Shadow Form. With Deadly Paradox that means in 40 seconds original is recharged. So you wait for 19 seconds to pass then cast the echoed one (no later or it will stop being echoed) now with plus 20% enchanting it will last for 25 seconds (1.2 x 21 = 25.2) So then Arcane Echo will recharge at the same time as the original Shadow Form (at 20 seconds) and they can be recast within the 5 seconds. Without it the build won't work... and remember to keep up Deadly Paradox whenever you cast Shadow Form... never tried this myself, I don't have an Assassin but it seems to make sense, and hopefully this will stop the many people saying it doesn't work Cool Name 13:02, 8 January 2008 (EST)
 * I have tried it but i wasn't sure whether the 2-% longer was a must (i used it when i did it), so i'm well aware of th timing. PheNaxKian </B> (<font color="Red">T /c) [[Image:Phenaxkian_sig_phoenix.jpg|19px]] 13:45, 8 January 2008 (EST)
 * It is a must. If I didnt add it to the equipment, Im sorry.  Ill do that now if its not there. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]]  Ressmonkey (talk)  15:26, 8 January 2008 (EST)
 * It's called weapon switching, cast Deadly paradox-Arcane Echo-SF with a non-20% enchanting mod, then switch to a 20% enchanting set, recast SF when your buff starts blinking to go out(21 seconds), then repeat :P 64.229.19.232 15:58, 8 January 2008 (EST)
 * But what other sort of weapon would you ever need for this build? And as a note, it does say staff of enchanting, but I added "(20%)" to make it more obvious. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]]  Ressmonkey (talk)  16:03, 8 January 2008 (EST)
 * Ah soz-i probably wasn't paying much attention... <font color="#4F94CD">PheNaxKian </B> (<font color="Red">T /c) [[Image:Phenaxkian_sig_phoenix.jpg|19px]] 16:24, 8 January 2008 (EST)

Difference of Opinion
Apparently, some users think this is crap while others think this is awesome. If somebody could rate a 2-2-2, there would be a 0,1,2,3,4, and 5 in all 3 categories of innovation, effectiveness, and universality. That would just be cool. ---  Ressmonkey (talk)  15:45, 8 January 2008 (EST)
 * lol on it. --71.229 15:46, 8 January 2008 (EST)
 * YAY!! --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]] Ressmonkey (talk)  15:47, 8 January 2008 (EST)
 * XD lulz-- Shadow sin  15:47, 8 January 2008 (EST)
 * Crap, no 0 universality. SOMEBODY MUST FIX!! (by changing not by adding hopefully) --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]]  Ressmonkey (talk)  15:55, 8 January 2008 (EST)

'''lollll roflolll in the vids you should be farming hardmode so people can actually see how much shadowform pwns, btw i run diff(idk, kinda better) builds, i can farm fow, uw, parts of doa, tombs,sorrows furnace, cof, and ect ect... all in hardmode, i make 100-150k a day, and why do people have to rip strats all the time... like gg come up with your own so you can make more money'''

time consuming
looks good but takes forever, its not terrible, what i mean is it works but most bosses that are spell casters will heal themselves in some manner making this extremely hard, the damage is meh and the whole buld seems illogical (P.S im not voting)  Beast 194  (<font color="Black">talk ) 16:32, 8 January 2008 (EST)


 * Most spell casters that heal themselves are called MONKS and you'd be an idiot to go against one with this build anyway, as for every other profession you have 3 optionals to use. Just use them to shutdown your chosen boss... <font color="#4F94CD">PheNaxKian </B> (<font color="Red">T /c) [[Image:Phenaxkian_sig_phoenix.jpg|19px]] 16:36, 8 January 2008 (EST)


 * Actually most spell caster bosses that heal themselves are all of them. But usually its by ilife stealing, aura of restoration, or ether feast.  Or theyre a rit or monk healer.  The healers u cant beat.  But the other things dont actually ever trigger since they cant cast.  And if a sin uses shadow refuge or something, theyres always diversion. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]]  Ressmonkey (talk)  16:45, 8 January 2008 (EST)


 * I only mentioned the monk because Aura of restorations useless because the ele can't cast on you. Necro's aren't always life stealing (so you shouldn't farm those ones anyway seen as they can get through shadow form (i think)) and Ether feast can't be cast on you as for rits it's a meh type thing (similar to necros-not all are healing) <font color="#4F94CD">PheNaxKian </B> (<font color="Red">T /c) [[Image:Phenaxkian_sig_phoenix.jpg|19px]] 18:37, 8 January 2008 (EST)
 * There's no reason targetted spell-type lifesteal would work. The only other ones I can think of are barbed sig and unholy feast. Regardless, unless there's, say 3+ heals, you can always diversion em. – Ichigo 724 [[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 18:42, 8 January 2008 (EST)


 * Is it meant to do teh farms in HM? Coz if not me could lure and kill the boss with my Moebus Blossomer faster, much faster. And again, u can probably get more profit from a CoF/Lutgardis HFFF rather than from a uber time consuming Green farming. --[[Image:SuperIgorsig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Purple"><tt>I</tt>g<tt>o</tt>r<tt></tt> 18:40, 10 January 2008 (EST)


 * U will fail miserably if u try to kill Jaqui the Reaver with a mobious blossomer (fenrir doesnt work either, too many people around)... Also, HM is infinitely better and faster. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]]  Ressmonkey (talk)  19:15, 10 January 2008 (EST)


 * Muahahahaha, so i am an Assassin jenious then ccoz I killed Jaqui hundred, hundred of times, at first I was plain clearing his mob whith H&H then killing him solo, but when I got myself a bow I discovered that it is possible t lure him out of his mob to me and kill him completely solo, so he is killable, dunno about Fenrir fough, probably soloable if u get rid of his mob which is sooo fast for an Assassin to do with his heroes. --[[Image:SuperIgorsig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Purple"><tt>I</tt>g<tt>o</tt>r<tt></tt> 05:20, 12 January 2008 (EST)
 * But slower than just using this build. – Ichigo 724 [[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 07:01, 12 January 2008 (EST)
 * I assure you that you will die if u try to solo fenrir witha a/d. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]]  Ressmonkey (talk)  08:42, 12 January 2008 (EST)


 * Ichigo, I could kill the Boss liek 4 times faster than with this... shit, and Ressmonkey, I use A/W, not A/D coz it has better surviveability and Stance removal. --[[Image:SuperIgorsig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Purple"><tt>I</tt>g<tt>o</tt>r<tt></tt> 09:41, 12 January 2008 (EST)
 * So u can kill a boss in 14 seconds with a a/w? --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]] Ressmonkey (talk)  09:53, 12 January 2008 (EST)


 * Sure, and btw, this does not kill in 14 seconds, dont be a fool, 14minutes+ yes, but not 14 seconds. --[[Image:SuperIgorsig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Purple"><tt>I</tt>g<tt>o</tt>r<tt></tt> 11:10, 12 January 2008 (EST)


 * But you said 4 times as fast. This can kill a axe or sword boss in about 50 seconds.  50/4 ~= 14. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]]  Ressmonkey (talk)  11:19, 12 January 2008 (EST)

(RI)"dunno about Fenrir fough, probably soloable if u get rid of his mob which is sooo fast for an Assassin to do with his heroes" - So wait, you kill an entire group, send the henchies off AND kill the boss before this kills him normally? Right, I lol'd. – Ichigo 724  11:21, 12 January 2008 (EST)


 * well if it takes u an hour to kill a mob... anyway it does not for me, more like 10 secs and u can usually lure the boos out of his mob anyway so me sees little point in maintaining SF constantly for the sake of it, though, can this thing solo full UW? me think it does. :/ --[[Image:SuperIgorsig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Purple"><tt>I</tt>g<tt>o</tt>r<tt></tt> 08:33, 13 January 2008 (EST)


 * Wha? No this cant do UW.  All it could do is kill aatxes and graspings (which dont drop ecto).  You cant get through the trappers cuz they trap u to death and the smites will smite hex and then RoF + zealots fire u to death.  But if you want to kill 12 aatxes in ~20 minutes and call that good farming, sure it can farm UW. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]]  Ressmonkey (talk)  08:54, 13 January 2008 (EST)


 * 10 sec? Right, gee gee, no point arguing if you're throwing around random numbers that are impossible. This can rape a boss way faster than any other build killing the entire mob, then sending henches off, THEN killing the boss. And not all bosses can be lured. – Ichigo 724 [[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 11:29, 13 January 2008 (EST)

Ratings
Weird, for the ratings people are putting either really good, or really bad. Never seen that happen before.-- Fire Tock  10:45, 13 January 2008 (EST)
 * It's on the admin noticeboard. [[Image:Shogunshen_Sig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Black"> Shen (contribs) 10:47, 13 January 2008 (EST)
 * It shouldnt be though. Its a simple debate over whether you should compare what this build can farm to what other builds can farm.  In other words:  Giving a low vote means that you are comparing it to bosses like Reefclaw Ragebound, where at least 3 other builds can beat him);  A high rating means that you compare it to bosses like Fenrir, where this is the only build (that I know of) that can kill him consistantly.  So let people argue.  Dont get admins involved, because I guarantee you there will be a difference of opinion there too.  And, just fyi, using H+H to kill a mob for a boss farm is one of the worst ideas ever... --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]]  Ressmonkey (talk)  12:56, 13 January 2008 (EST)
 * And when the debate leaks over onto the rating page, it's not simple anymore. [[Image:Shogunshen_Sig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Black"> Shen (contribs) 12:57, 13 January 2008 (EST)
 * Just wondering, where do you stand on this topic: good build or bad build.  Because I have no problem with this build being in Other.  Because if you are trying to get it into great or good, I would tell you that thats OK.  But if you are trying to get it trashed, then Im gonna have to try to stop you. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]]  Ressmonkey (talk)  13:09, 13 January 2008 (EST)
 * Farming Builds are peculiar, and I can't say I've got much experience with them. Therefore, I'll take your word for it that this can solo farm bosses that other builds can't. However, the efficacy of this build is banking on the whether or not this redeeming quality is worthwhile, that is, are the rewards profitable. And by profitable, I mean are you just farming bosses to be farming them, or are the rewards up to par with other builds? To not rate a farming build on this criteria is ludicrious. This issue ties into running builds, where one profession may be able to run the build more effectively than another. Runners clearly less effective should be sorted so, not given leeway merely because they offer a new approach. So, this is a Great build if there indeed is something to be gained by farming fenrir, or whatever other bosses. But to categorize this as great just because it offers a less-effective, albeit innovative and different venue, is wrong. [[Image:Shogunshen_Sig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Black"> Shen (contribs) 13:19, 13 January 2008 (EST)
 * See Fenrir's Bastion. I personally think that is one sexy shield, but there are lots of people who disagree. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]]  Ressmonkey (talk)  13:29, 13 January 2008 (EST)
 * Basic law of merchanting-Supply and demand. Basically if this is the only build that can farm certain bosses, your pretty free to name your price, because you'll be the only one getting a steady inflow of the item(s) (if indeed this is the only build that can farm the bosses solo), but of course you actually need to find someone who wants the item (which there will be a few who want whatever somewhere if you look hard enough)..... <font color="#4F94CD">PheNaxKian </B> (<font color="Red">T /c) [[Image:Phenaxkian_sig_phoenix.jpg|19px]] 13:34, 13 January 2008 (EST)
 * I bet if you tried to merchant fenrir's bastion, you could sell it for 20k+ if you found somebody who liked the skin (because nowadays cool skins sell better than useful weapons). It might be hard to find, but the payoff would be nice. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]]  Ressmonkey (talk)  13:48, 13 January 2008 (EST)
 * Exactly (also if you could find a kool skin that this can farm nothing else can-you've just found a huge amount of money....=p),(personaly i hate Fenrirs skin it looks horriable (the shield not the boss XD) <font color="#4F94CD">PheNaxKian </B> (<font color="Red">T /c) [[Image:Phenaxkian_sig_phoenix.jpg|19px]] 13:58, 13 January 2008 (EST)
 * I think the boss looks awesome too. Yellow glowiness and 2 heads on a rabid looking dog-like thing is coooool.  But thats how people made a lot of money off of Sunreaches Shield back before 400000000000 people started farming it night and day. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]]  Ressmonkey (talk)  14:15, 13 January 2008 (EST)

I can farm this Boss easily with my VwK Rit. I can do it in both Normal and Hard Mode. Dark Magition Kitty
 * I love how it went from almost trash to almost great.-- AESTHE  T  I  C 

Enadiz the Hardheaded
Just discovered that this can farm him, and to my knowledge is the only build that can do so. You ahve to do it in Normal Mode or else you will get headbutted to death. Bring shadow refuge, channeling, and ether feast for the optionals. Heal after he or another creature uses headbutt. He will die pretty quickly because of his use of burst of aggression. And he has a cool shield which is probably worth a lot cuz its almost impossible to farm. ---  Ressmonkey (talk)  12:29, 19 January 2008 (EST)
 * Diversion?-- AESTHE  T  I  C 
 * Not needed. It would be hard to time it right to take out headbutt, and the healing is enough as long as you dont aggro another 3 warriors. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]]  Ressmonkey (talk)  12:49, 20 January 2008 (EST)
 * Ummm the usual E/A can do it, just took me 4 attempts because on the first few attempts i tried to aggro lots so sliver would work better but then took your advice and it worked fine: http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:E/A_Solo_Green_Farmer (im gonna add him to the list once i get a good video of it) Cool Name 12:51, 22 January 2008 (EST)

Boss List
Is anybody gonna help me with this? ---  Ressmonkey (talk)  17:39, 20 January 2008 (EST)
 * Nobody... QQ. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]] Ressmonkey (talk)  18:19, 20 January 2008 (EST)
 * I would but I can't really. My assassin is only lvl 19 (has been that level for nearly a year, too), he hasn't explored very far and the most important reason: I am incredibly lazy.<font color="Black"> &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 19:16, 20 January 2008 (EST)
 * Laziness ftw :) --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]] Ressmonkey (talk)  20:56, 20 January 2008 (EST)
 * Guess i could give you a hand but i'd only really be able to do faction areas (not luxon territory either), but i wouldn't relay on it.... <font color="#4F94CD">PheNaxKian </B> (<font color="Red">T /c) [[Image:Phenaxkian_sig_phoenix.jpg|19px]] 13:06, 21 January 2008 (EST)
 * Any help you could give would be good. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]] Ressmonkey (talk)  13:14, 21 January 2008 (EST)
 * KK-I'll Try having a go at a few bosses later on... <font color="#4F94CD">PheNaxKian </B> (<font color="Red">T /c) [[Image:Phenaxkian_sig_phoenix.jpg|19px]] 13:15, 21 January 2008 (EST)
 * Urgh doing this is a real pain in the arse-i see why you wanted help-i'm hvaing trouble getting back into the swing of timing this right (could be a while before i actually egt a boss killed). I was doing quite well on one boss, but i think i buggered my chain up somewhere, for some reason i didn't have the echoed version =s.... <font color="#4F94CD">PheNaxKian </B> (<font color="Red">T /c) [[Image:Phenaxkian_sig_phoenix.jpg|19px]] 14:38, 22 January 2008 (EST)

Just want to say nice work on whoever has been building up the boss list, starting to look good Cool Name 17:05, 29 January 2008 (EST)

Chart
I think a chart could help this build. A chart on how Shadow Form is maintained constantly makes it seem more pro... I'm not a fan of it, but still, it deserves a chart. -- Guild of  Deals  16:24, 22 January 2008 (EST)
 * Erm not sure i understand what you mean but i do think it should be made slightly more clear how to maintain shadow form (which tbh is f***ing impossible (metaphorically speaking i mean, i'm well aware it can be done)). I cba to do it myself so i'll say it here so anyone who wants to can.


 * Cast Deadly
 * Cast Arcane Echo
 * Cast Shadow form (these 3 steps must be done quite rapidly)
 * When Shadow form is jsut slightly under 1/3 recharged (so the picture has got slightly more grey than half or however you want to put it) Cast deadly then Echoed Shadow form.
 * The main skills should recharge with just enough time to repeat the first 3 steps, without losing any health.
 * If the skills don't recharge in time, try waiting a bit longer to cast the echoed shadow form (the longer you can leave it the better...)
 * make sure you have a +20% enchant mod =p
 * That's just about it, maybe a screen shot and the above points =S? <font color="#4F94CD">PheNaxKian </B> (<font color="Red">T /c) [[Image:Phenaxkian_sig_phoenix.jpg|19px]] 16:47, 22 January 2008 (EST)
 * You got everything right except for the 1/3. Because Deadly Paradox makes the recharge of shadow form 67% of what it used to be, it becomes 40 seconds.  Echoed version lasts 20, so slightly under 1/2. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]]  Ressmonkey (talk)  16:52, 22 January 2008 (EST)
 * You have to cast echoed shadow form at over/under 1/2 (confused as to what we're saying is less than half recharged is), but you need to cast DP before that so you can.......crap......all that time i spent wasting doing fuck all, because i thought i had to DP the echoed version! arghhh! <font color="#4F94CD">PheNaxKian </B> (<font color="Red">T /c) [[Image:Phenaxkian_sig_phoenix.jpg|19px]] 16:54, 22 January 2008 (EST)
 * Energy -= 15, with no real reason why :P --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]] Ressmonkey (talk)  17:04, 22 January 2008 (EST)

I'm pretty sure there was a chart on another a/me solo build at some point. – Ichigo 724  17:11, 22 January 2008 (EST)
 * Yeah there was, but that build got trasshed and deleted after the deadly paradox nerf because the energy management was poor to beign with, but and extra 10 energy every 40 seconds really didnt sit with people too well. It was an image so it probably still exists, but it might be hard to find cuz nothing links to it that I knwo of.  Also, it would have to be remade since it uses the 50% DP. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]]  Ressmonkey (talk)  17:21, 22 January 2008 (EST)
 * I've looked through imgaes, and couldn't really see anything that would be it (not that i did a through check, just looked at images with the obv. names Perm, shadow form etc.)but i couldn't find it-anyone fancies a better look, be my guest. <font color="#4F94CD">PheNaxKian </B> (<font color="Red">T /c) [[Image:Phenaxkian_sig_phoenix.jpg|19px]] 17:37, 22 January 2008 (EST)
 * Just found it: here --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]] Ressmonkey (talk)  17:38, 22 January 2008 (EST)

Here's a a shitty excel version that doesn't take into account faster activation, nor that aftercast is .75 and not 1, but you should get the general idea. – Ichigo 724  18:43, 22 January 2008 (EST)
 * I dont see what a chart will really do though, besides prove that you can maintain shadow form permanantly, which can be done mathematically. What does seem useful to me would be a screen like this:

This shows about when to use the echoed version of shadow form, although I would use it about .5 seconds earlier to be safe. And in case somebody didt get that, I would be using the echoed version of Shadow Form at that very moment. ---  Ressmonkey (talk)  18:59, 22 January 2008 (EST)

Deadly Arts 0?
That's silly. You can put one point in and you get 6 seconds of DP instead of 5. :p Better yet, why not give up 2 energy for a rune of superior deadly arts?
 * Because that also means you ahve 2 less energy for 75 less health, when you don't need shadow form up that long, 5 seconds is all you actually need, but i'll give you the extra second from piutting the 3ats into deadly is usefull, but there's no point wasting 75 health and 2 energy for longer, it makes no usefull difference, i'd rather have the extra energy tbh... <font color="#4F94CD">PheNaxKian </B> (<font color="Red">T /c) [[Image:Phenaxkian_sig_phoenix.jpg|19px]] 11:39, 27 January 2008 (EST)
 * I'm having enough trouble getting the "perma-shadow" aspect to work as it is. I practiced a few times in an Sunqua Valley, but Deadly Paradox just doesn't speed things up enough.

Speeding it up
Put Wastrel's Worry + Channeling on main bar. Due to bosses' hax, you can almost spam it constantly and still have it go off. This would save a few seconds, and a few seconds makes a huge difference with a large amount of runs.<font color="Black"> &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 10:37, 28 January 2008 (EST)
 * Only Proph bosses have the hax of halved hex times, and if all bosses had that, this build would suck because empathy would only have a 6 second duration. Anyways, against some bosses channeling isnt needed or wont helo that much, and against others there isnt enough room on the bar to have wastrels, and even other just dont have enough things around them to supply you with enough energy for a wastrels spam.  Probably better to just have 3 optionals. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]]  Ressmonkey (talk)  10:52, 28 January 2008 (EST)

Worx on Bohdalz the Furious
Does anyone know if this or any solo build works on Bohdalz the Furious? I can not seem to do it with the sliver boss farmer because something makes it so the sliver dmg limits to 4 after awhile instead of 22. I think it is the PS that the Blue Tongue Heket use. I can run to him with this build but no luck farmin him. -Cera the Slayer
 * Shielding Hands, not PS &mdash; [[Image:DestructiveWasGlaiveInvert.jpg|20px]] <font color="#00ff84">eX <font color="#00a2ff">tinctioN (<font color="#ff8a00">Talk /<font color="#ff5400">Contributions ) 06:18, 11 June 2008 (EDT)

Backfire?
I was reading the Optionals and noticed they didn't have Backfire. It would sure as hell speed up the killing of casters. -- Guild of  Deals  14:38, 2 February 2008 (EST)
 * not really unless it's a monk boss. Remember shadow form means you can't be target to spells so casters can only wand you and not cast spells on you (unless they're touch or not target specific), meaning that empathy would be more useful than backfire. <font color="#4F94CD">PheNaxKian </B> (<font color="Red">T /c) [[Image:Phenaxkian_sig_phoenix.jpg|19px]] 14:50, 2 February 2008 (EST)
 * Ah yeah, forgot. --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  09:26, 9 February 2008 (EST)

Bosses
I can confirm that this build can farm Bezzr Wingstorm, The Pain Eater and The Skill Eater in Drazach Thicket HM. Will post more as i find them
 * Thanks. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]] Ressmonkey (talk)  07:50, 24 February 2008 (EST)

Video
I put up a video of me farming Sskai with this build. Has some instructions, although they're not that great. Hope it helps, and it proves that you CAN keep up shadow form for you non-believers. Im not the best with this build, but I tried ^^. --An1drag0n 14:29, 1 March 2008 (EST)

Timing
This build needs a very good timing :/ The best i've got so far is to renew the SF second it wears of so i'll take the damage but have SF on. Am I doing something wrong? --87.94.121.190 15:08, 26 March 2008 (EDT)
 * No timing is very tight (with the nerf of DP) usually i get the same as you, but there are times when i can get it in just before i take the damage from SF but you have to leave casting the echoed SF till as late as possiable. <font color="#4F94CD">PheNaxKian </B> (<font color="Red">T /c) [[Image:Phenaxkian_sig_phoenix.jpg|19px]] 15:43, 26 March 2008 (EDT)

Weapon Choice
From my experience, using a staff for this build can mess up your chain due to the fact that staffs give 20% half recharge time to spells. Arcane echo's revert timing is usally kept by checking when Shadow Form is exactly half recharged. However, if the 20% spell recharge on the staff activates on Shadow Form (randomly), it will mess up your timing. It is better to use +energy set without any 20% half spell recharge.

Archive
Rise of perma-Shadow Form with Glyph of Swiftness. Lets perma-Shadow Form with Sliver Armor and such. -- Guild of  Deals  20:19, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * True, archive away... :( --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]] Ressmonkey (talk)  20:31, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Still, it was a good pre-nerf build. Props to Ressmonkey. --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  20:31, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Lol, pre-buff (archive on a buff :P), and thanks for the props. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]] Ressmonkey (talk)  20:33, 22 May 2008 (EDT)


 * This archive is bad. This build can farm bosses that you can´t farm (or are difficult to farm) with the various A/E Sliver Armor builds. Examples are Doppelganger and Cultist Rajazan. The buff to Shadow Form makes this build even easier to use. Therefor I will undo this archive. --Jill Bioskop 03:37, 23 May 2008 (EDT)


 * Like the above person said, the buff does make this easier to use, and it can still be kept up indeffinatly with Deadly and echo. I'd probably even say this is better to use becasue you don't need to be next to the target, and there's a chance you do mroe damage (sliver deending on you being attacked an all....) <font color="#4F94CD">~PheNaxKian </B> (<font color="Red">T /c) [[Image:Phenaxkian_sig_phoenix.jpg|19px]] 08:16, 23 May 2008 (EDT)

Me/A
With the buff to Shadow Form, it may be possible to do this as a Me/A instead of a A/Me. This would allow for mesmer runes for more damage. An example of what I mean: [build prof=me/a dom=12+1+3 ins=3+1 sha=12][deadly paradox@0][arcane echo][shadow form][empathy][spirit of failure][optional][optional][optional][/build] You could also add in some fast casting if u dropped a little shadow or domination. ---  Ressmonkey (talk)  11:07, 26 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Tried it this wins greatly over the A/Me version --MLegion 16:58, 10 June 2008 (EDT)

Keeping up SF
Put it in notes, usage, or description. Good idea since ppl are dum with arcane echo--<font color="99CCFF">R ELYK   <font color="CCCCFF">(Talk  | <font color="99CCFF"> Edits)  23:11, 26 May 2008 (EDT)

Fenrir
Do the people here know what a 55 monk is? Because, last time I checked, it could kill Fenrir and the Kveldulf pretty simply. Also, (shameless plug) this could probably do it, using the Sheild of Regen or Mending Touch variants. So, yeah, this isn't the only build that can kill Fenrir. <font color="Black">Ekko <font color="Black">(Brother  <font color="Black">Starr)  11:46, 29 May 2008 (EDT)
 * yeh but those both get pwnd by enchantment removal, this is fine as long as you time it right, meaning you can take on necromancers and mesmers (i know those above can but some bosses have enchantment removal and you will die quickly with the above builds if they get you....) <font color="#4F94CD">~PheNaxKian </B> (<font color="Red">T /c) [[Image:Phenaxkian_sig_phoenix.jpg|19px]] 11:57, 29 May 2008 (EDT)
 * First, my comment was that farming Fenrir is in no way exclusive to this build. Second, the 330 ele CAN take bosses with enchantment removal (Odsidian Flesh).  [[Image:EkkoWord.jpg|50x19px]]<font color="Black">Ekko  <font color="Black">(Brother  <font color="Black">Starr)  12:54, 29 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Yes you were talking about Fenrir specifically, but generally this can farm more bosses. An the 330hp ele you linked to has shockwave, not OF..... <B><font color="#4F94CD">~PheNaxKian </B> (<font color="Red">T /c) [[Image:Phenaxkian_sig_phoenix.jpg|19px]] 14:15, 29 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Im pretty sure Ive tried 55ing Fenrir. He uses Leader's Comfort and has 3 health regen which outheals SoJ's damage.  I can 600/Smite it, but otherwise, Im pretty sure this is the only solo build that can consistantly kill fenrir. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]]  Ressmonkey (talk)  15:26, 29 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Actually, other perma-shadow things can kill him now, but they didnt work when this was created. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]] Ressmonkey (talk)  15:31, 29 May 2008 (EDT)

@Rapta
We don't need to fill every fucking slot. That's what the "Optional" skill slot is for. And we don't want an RV war, do we? --Guild of Deals<font color="Black"> * Wah <font color="DAA520">Wah  Wah! * 16:33, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
 * You still need to be able to get to the target and kill it, I'm sure. As far as I see, almost every single boss says "bring channeling". Dash is trivial. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 16:35, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Fine, but Diversion was unneeded. You did take it out of the bar though, so it looks fine. --Guild of Deals<font color="Black"> * Wah <font color="DAA520">Wah  Wah! * 16:36, 27 June 2008 (EDT)


 * Dash sucks ass. Because you are perma shadow, theres no trouble getting to foes.  Anyways, mindbender would be a better running skill and would increase cast time. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]]  Ressmonkey (talk)  16:39, 27 June 2008 (EDT)
 * There you go then. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 16:41, 27 June 2008 (EDT)

Changed to Me/A
Me/A has more damage, the ability to use fast casting, and doesnt lose any survivability over the A/Me. Discuss. ---  Ressmonkey (talk)  17:21, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I'd say keep both, but I'm too lazy to explain why, so meh... &mdash; [[Image:DestructiveWasGlaiveInvert.jpg|20px]] <font color="#00ff84">eX <font color="#00a2ff">tinctioN (<font color="#ff8a00">Talk /<font color="#ff5400">Contributions ) 17:24, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Ill add the A/Me as a variant. It still works and since more people have PvE sins then mesmsers its good. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]]  Ressmonkey (talk)  17:26, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
 * That should be ok then. For the rest, I agree with the change. &mdash; [[Image:DestructiveWasGlaiveInvert.jpg|20px]] <font color="#00ff84">eX <font color="#00a2ff">tinctioN (<font color="#ff8a00">Talk /<font color="#ff5400">Contributions ) 17:29, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
 * No, not a variant: a separate build! For my assassin I look for assassin builds, not for mesmer builds or whatever primary profession to see if they can switched around and be used with primary assassin (edited) --Jill Bioskop 17:36, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Then make a new build for Me/A instead of changing this one, and have both builds link to eachother. It's still an excellent build for assassins, and just because a mesmer might do the job better doesn't mean the assassin build should not exist anymore. For example: E/A and A/E solo green farmers have existed together nicely for a very long time. Also I find it a bit offending that you make the change first and then "ask" to discuss it. --Jill Bioskop 17:35, 28 June 2008 (EDT) (stupid edit conflicts)
 * The reason theres a difference between the E/A and teh A/E is because A/E has a longer SF duration, which it sacrificed some damage to do. In this, both the Me/A and the A/Me can maintain shadow form just as easily.  The only difference is the 5 attributes higher in domination causing a MUCH higher damage output.  Also, the A/Me isnt destroyed, its just incorporated into the variants.  Sorry if it was offensive too. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]]  Ressmonkey (talk)  17:43, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
 * This version and the A/Me version have the exact same skills, equipment, usage, and variants. A seperate write-up is redundant. --Guild of Deals<font color="Black"> * Wah <font color="DAA520">Wah  Wah! * 17:46, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
 * #REDIRECT Build:Me/A Perma Shadow Boss Farmer – Ichigo 724 [[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 17:48, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Yeah, the redirct needs to be deleted. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]] Ressmonkey (talk)  17:50, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
 * No, my point was, just use a redirect page to have both builds listed. – Ichigo 724 [[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 18:03, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Lol, Im horrible at getting points. Still, that doesnt show up in categories, so its kinda useless.  Unless u could have a redirect page with a great tag in it. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]]  Ressmonkey (talk)  18:05, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
 * My point is: if someone is looking for farming builds for an assassin, how is this person going to find this build if it's only filed under mesmer builds? --Jill Bioskop 17:51, 28 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Well, theyre gonna go without knowing about this build then. But, there are so many other A/E farming builsd that can do what this can 9 times out of 10, so its not a hige loss. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]]  Ressmonkey (talk)  17:56, 28 June 2008 (EDT)

more bosses
I added the Grenth's Footprint bosses, damn they were easy to farm. I didn't try Wroth Yakslapper, but I guess with a well-timed Diversion he'd go down too. The guys in Sorrow's Furnace are a joke as well. The larry 10:49, 10 December 2008 (EST)

Nerfed
Multiple times and thus I'm archiving this. No longer maintainable on Me/A and damage no longer worth it on A/Me. ---  Ressmonkey (talk)  19:33, 12 December 2008 (EST)

warrior/ranger ez doppelganger nm

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