Archive talk:Team - The Deep Cryway

QQ, looks good. &not; Klump eet  10:58, 4 May 2008 (EDT)
 * this ought to kill something. [[Image:Sebsig.jpg|19px]]  seb2lazy2login  (ʞ1ɐʇ)  14:30, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

Clumsiness>Wandering eye, no? &not; Klump  eet  06:39, 5 May 2008 (EDT)
 * My reason for Wandering Eye instead of Clumsiness is to give the whole AoE spike a bit of extra damage all at once. Clumsiness is okay, but you can't guarentee all enemies take damage at the same time. They may, for example, be a group of Onis who are half attacking and half moving away (but very slowly due to Deep Freeze) - this is quite commonly seen in the Aspect of Fear. In this case Clumsiness will only effect the half still attacking whereas Wandering Eye will add to the spike damage and make sure they all die at once. Athrun Feya 07:42, 5 May 2008 (EDT)
 * OK, but where's the Deep Freeze coming from? &not; Klump  eet  09:55, 10 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Deep Freeze is on one of the Mesmers. --67.71.121.200 10:26, 10 May 2008 (EDT)

For the love of all that is video games, put a ranger in there somehow, please..maybe as just a variant for something.. Mesmers aren't the only ones who can't get groups in there as of now, you know!...Here's an idea. And don't tell me rangers stink at The Deep, because it isn't true.Stryk the Lightning 11:26, 10 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Aw QQ, yeah sure and lets add an assassin and dervish while we're at it. In fact, screw that, let's take 9 ursans. On a serious note, taking mesmers over eles improves the run (speedwise and damagewise) where rangers don't really have so much of an appeal. Considering they are already short of 30 armor which is absolutely critical when they go in for the larger pulls. Sure, rangers aren't bad in the deep for a traditional steel wall group when you're only ever pulling about 6 things max. But not here. Athrun Feya [[Image:User_Athrun_Feya_Hamster.png‎ ]] 15:27, 10 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Yeah. This is to finish the Deep quickly... if you want rangers in the build then go cry about it here instead, where the fastest you'll ever get is 40 mins.
 * Got to agree, this is to complete the Deep in the fastest times possible. There's a reason why Athrun (and her team mates) has gotten some of the fastest times in the Deep, this is one of them! Selket Shadowdancer 17:05, 10 May 2008 (EDT)

If anyone ever needs a mesmer for this, message me here or ingame. nick: Bernardo Mafaraxas -- Mafaraxas 17:40, 10 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Think this will insipre me to re-roll a Necro. :) Selket Shadowdancer 17:41, 10 May 2008 (EDT)

BiP Necromancer
Just wondering why Kaidas BiP isn't used anymore, that was one of the best BiPs to use in the Deep way back when. EDIT: The build in question is this: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10000649 Selket Shadowdancer 18:52, 10 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I've never seen that build but looking at the time it was posted, it's well done. Now - Verata's gaze is much more important with HM about and outcast being able to make a golem every 10 seconds, so we have that instead of PS, which when needed can be given by much awake monks(and is needed a lot less than Kaida suggests). We also have a new way of doing the Aspect of Decay, meaning very little time is spent when conditions are a problem so there is no need for extinguish, so Masochism is taken instead to reduce energy problems which if often troublesome if using mending. Andy 19:05, 10 May 2008 (EDT)

nerf
Theyre gonna nerf cry of pain so badly if it becomes overused.  * Jebus  *   Is    I  19:33, 10 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Yeah, like they did to ursan.Lau  [[Image:User_Athrun_Feya_Hamster.png‎ ]] ( talk | contri ) 19:50, 10 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Unlikely. The whole point of Cry was to give mesmers (read: mesmers who use mesmer skills) a place in PvE. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] Mafaraxas  19:52, 10 May 2008 (EDT)
 * /agree with mafaraxas, though ursan NEEDS to be nerfed.&rarr;  If you're reading this, you've just been pwned. [[Image:ExtremeSignPic.JPG|19px]] Extreme  ( Minor Changes Ftl. )( Noob comment storage. ) 23:16, 10 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Nah, Ursan needs to be made into a normal skills so I can run it in RA. God  box   13:55, 11 May 2008 (EDT)
 * They only nerf skills for PvP and PvP only. Anet couldn't care less about PvE skills.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 17:33, 11 May 2008 (EDT)

Edits
SECOND EDIT: The rest of the talk sucked too. Removing that as well.

I'm keeping the stuff below because that actually gives some (albeit probably useless) info.

Some notes regarding Kanaxai's attack speed:

Kanaxai wields daggers. He is an Assassin monster, not a Boss in the "strict" sense. In HM he benefits from the same 33% IAS all monsters have. This means he attacks 1 1/3 per second * 2/3 = 1 hit per 8/9 second. Demonic Agility isn't an IAS in the strict sense, it sets DS to 100%. Kanaxai is level 32 in Hard Mode, and realistically should have somewhere around 20-25 Dagger Mastery. Assuming he has 24, this makes 50% DS naturally. That's 1 strike per 6/9 seconds, which seems in line with what's experienced in-game.

So, Demonic Agility doesn't double his attack speed. Without it, expect around 1 hit every 2/3 seconds; with it, 1 every 4/9 seconds. Moloch 15:02, 12 May 2008 (EDT)

pve srs bsns
-- Mafaraxas 13:03, 12 May 2008 (EDT)
 * nothing liek ra tho. God  box   13:05, 12 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Too much stats and technical chatter for my eyes and brain to handle at 1am. :) Selket Shadowdancer 19:54, 12 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Let's all have a nice big cup of STFUbecausenoonecaresaboutthedeepandifyouwanttowaveyourepeenaboutthendothedamnmissionandshowscreensofyourcompletiontimeratherthantheorycraftingwallsoftext. I like mine with milk and jaffa cakes. - PANIC!  [[Image:Panic_sig4.png|50px|18px]]  sexiness!  11:07, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Do females still have epeens? lol Lau  [[Image:User_Athrun_Feya_Hamster.png‎ ]] ( talk | contri ) 12:38, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Yes. Everyone on the internet does; welcome to the universe of disembodiment and projection. Also, I think your Sig violate policy. The name displayed should represent your actual username. - PANIC!  [[Image:Panic_sig4.png|50px|18px]]  sexiness!  13:43, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Another nicely hidden policy there. (On further inspection its under a link for "policy guidelines that are more advisory in nature than policies" is that wrongly placed or am i actually under no jurisdiction to change it?). Lau  [[Image:User_Athrun_Feya_Hamster.png‎ ]] ( athrun | <font color="Gray">feya ) 18:28, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
 * It's more than likely noone will care. If one of the admins does, they'll probably just ask you to change it and that'll be the end of it. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] <font color="black" face="calibri">Mafaraxas  20:20, 13 May 2008 (EDT)

Very Important Talk :p
How about getting back to actual discussion of the build instead of this aimless slinging of mud?

More on-topic, and this doesn't involve "completely changing the build", btw:

Benefits of including Glyph Of Renewal on (then-previous) Healing Hands monk:

Close to 100% uptime of Seed Of Life on this character. HB monks can copy GoR through AM to achieve better uptime of this spell, however this requires going /Me, which will make build slightly more energy intense otherwise (though Renewal-Seed makes it less so.) Mesmers and N SS can copy GoR in-battle to increase CoP frequency.

Benefits of staying Healing Hands:

HB on HH monk. (This is the real drawback of the approach.) HH is castable on self. (Honestly I don't see much value to this.)

I don't think Strength 12+1 and Dolyak, SoS is truly needed, but am at a loss for things to replace it with. Possibly weapon mastery, melee interrupt (limited usability.) Maybe "Don't Trip"? However SoS adds a margin of error for bad teams.

BiP /Rt secondary should be mentioned. Recuperation, Recovery. BiP Command spec should be considered (Fall Back, maybe Make Haste <- (Tank pulls), Godspeed <- (However where's the partywide enchantment) for faster runs, Never Surrender <-(Pretty good match for the BiP).)

Again, questioning the value of Verata's on BiP with two SS packing the spell. Absolute minimum change to BiP, inclusion of Masochism in baseline build. Will make this change now. Moloch 10:32, 13 May 2008 (EDT)


 * Masochism; looks ok now on the base build - since two of the varients had it and the N/P had leaders zeal which was inferior.

<font color="Pink">Lau  ( <font color="Gray">talk | <font color="Gray">contri ) 12:38, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Glyth; still no. Another benefit to HH is you can mimicry Shadow Meld to get through gate.
 * Dolyaks; in my experience, i still use it enough to justify it being there. Especially since "I am unstoppable!" only lasts 12 seconds for me - using that when pulling foes and then Doylaks once youve stopped is a pretty common practice. SoS is helpful (not really required though as you said.). What would be the benefit of "don't trip"? I know what it does, but widespread kd isnt really a problem (even if the tanks get kd, its still not really a problem).
 * Run skill (for something); this IS a good idea. 25% speed boost is extremely helpful for the tank that pulls (i've known of tanks to take dark escape and enraging charge before) - can't remember if groups lose aggro at 33% though (cant get online to experiment). This needs to be looked at.
 * N/Rt bip - restoration looks sound. But for conditions, Pure was Mi Ling is probably more suitable(sitll not sure if condition removal is really nessecary). Flesh of my flesh might be suitable, bip runs low hp so the cost wont be too high and it frees up one of the mesmer builds.
 * Glyph, if Mo/HB goes /Me they can copy SM
 * Dolyaks, I understand the concern. Was thinking Don't Trip as some counter to Scorpio but probably ineffective and not required.
 * Still don't like Veratas on BiP. Example: if N/P BiP: BloodRenew, BiP, Maso, Well, - With Command we add: Either Verata, FallBack, MakeHaste and Sig/Ret, OR FallBack, MakeHaste, NevSurr and Sig/Ret; I think the second option is more attractive.
 * N/Rt: Can use Weapon/Warding @12Rest to gain +4 hp-regen. Flesh/Flesh is good. Running through some areas is slow because of Cripple. Moloch 13:11, 13 May 2008 (EDT)

Summary: still no idea what to do with the bip :p Glyth on CoP sounds nice and then most mesmers would need to throw in mimicry somewhere (HB wouldnt need) If you really wanted a para speed boost to help the tank "make haste" (you mean Lead the Way right Moloch 14:45, 13 May 2008 (EDT)) is your only option (a source tells me oni loose aggro after 25% speed increase). Unfortunatley, that's leadership. I suppose a P/N could bip (+5 from bip instead of +6), which would allow you to throw in "There's nothing to fear!" (very helpful around outcast), stand your ground, lead the way (for the pulling tank), fall back (for whole team rush), sig of return etc, and share the atrtibute points between leadership, command and blood magic. <font color="Pink">Lau  ( <font color="Gray">talk | <font color="Gray">contri ) 13:51, 13 May 2008 (EDT)

If aggro is lost with a 33% speedboost, I guess it's either scrap it or learn to pull under a 33% speedboost anyway. Para could probably BiP reasonably well, loses Masochism but the /P build isn't terribly energy-intense... Then again that'd leave the team build a mess lol. Side note, I think N/D option should be removed, doesn't add anything to party utility with its secondary. Moloch 14:45, 13 May 2008 (EDT)

N/D does the same job as the N/Mo currently. Hmm the only way to pull under a 33% speed boost is walk backwards ;p not fun... but why not "make haste" for the tank and "fall back" for other occasions? P/N bip would be almost as effective as putting up cons with the damage reduction and speed boost. <font color="Pink">Lau  ( <font color="Gray">talk | <font color="Gray">contri ) 15:06, 13 May 2008 (EDT) Wow I suddenly realized I hadn't even unlocked secondaries on my para, will do that now to tinker with builds ;p Moloch 15:20, 13 May 2008 (EDT)

Paragon/Necromancer Blood Magic 8 Leadership 11+1+3 Command 11+3

Blood Is Power - Blood Renewal - Well of Blood - Lead The Way - Fall Back! - There's Nothing To Fear - Never Surrender - Signet Of Return

Best I can think of. Created build with armor etc. Moloch 16:02, 13 May 2008 (EDT)

maybe throw stand your ground in? not sure what to take out. maybe well of blood. maybe never surrender <font color="Pink">Lau  ( <font color="Gray">talk | <font color="Gray">contri ) 16:21, 13 May 2008 (EDT)

I'd prefer scrapping Well, NS is a comfy spell to pack for the para, but then we need PutridExp/WoB on an SS or something for corpse denial. Spamming Well can drain para of e quickly. Moloch 17:45, 13 May 2008 (EDT)

Well, I tried running the BiP Para once, it was pretty nice, but a little energy intense. Leadership can't really compensate for all the expensive shouts, even if of course BR and BiP is very cheap. I think it needs a little better e-management. I'll try to think of something. (Oh, and Well Of Blood is out of the question.) Moloch 20:05, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * One little thing. After thinking over the run yesterday with the P/N bip... I think it's the best possible option for a good party. It includes tools not present in the N/x. It requires more skill to play, however. You can't go wild with shouts. Still I think it's better. I played it like a moron, 1 hour of waiting and 2am can do that to you. And one Truly Bizarre thing... the best e-management skill for the P/N would probably be Masochism... "Never Surrender" is great for the BiP. It can't be left out. It's also a possible party-wide heal that's extremely energy-effective (can potentially heal 1700hp for 5e). I didn't see much value to Stand Your Ground tho (compared to TNTF and the speed boosts), if I'd need to throw something out to make room for Maso/whatever that'd be it. Command should be 11+1+3. Leadership should be 11+3. Moloch 05:46, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Yeah, Para bip last night bipped just as well as an N/x one (might need br from an SS if they die). They have more armor, so wont die as fast after being targetted for low hp, and have armor buffs for the rest of the team which would especially help during split (not mentioned in guide), but also for every oni that attacks casters. Dropping well of blood is no problem, corpse waste isn't needed as outcast die too fast unless something goes wrong, but an SS can take it anyway, only 1 SS needs to take shivers/strip and insidious.
 * One nice thing about the P is Signet Of Return becomes a really good resurrection skill that can potentially raise a spiked member with 100% health and around 40-50% energy. Moloch 11:29, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * This team build is very good, we shortened deep runs from ~2hours to 30-45 mins a run. also the damage from the mesmers is incredible. Larsie538 11:45, 19 May 2008 (EDT)

New page
For discussion, further edits and possible inclusion,

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:P/N_BiP_Commander Moloch 13:38, 15 May 2008 (EDT)

Wow
Very nice write up--<font color="99CCFF">R ELYK   <font color="CCCCFF">ʞlɐʇ ʎɯ  20:50, 27 July 2008 (EDT)
 * I herd detailed step-by-step instructions were gud. =P ــмıкε  нaшк  20:55, 27 July 2008 (EDT)

Variants
You guys should add some variants, like nukers, other variants for tanks, besides warriors, cause this way, only W, Me, Mo & N can do Deep (unless you can find a Steel Wall group, then you can add E to the list...), but all other profs are left out, which means they can't do it, or get the statue in their HoM (iff desired) iff i were you, i'dd add other profs in the list, or otherwise Ursan might get trough pretty fast, which will mean they'll corrupt The Deep aswell... which would be sad, cause The Deep and Urgoz are the only 2 elite spots where Ursan hasn't got trough so far... Bright is Da Name 06:34, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Sigh  <font color="Orange">Fox007  [[Image:User Fox007 sig.png|User:Fox007]] 06:38, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Limiting by profession is nothing new or unusual. If you're looking for nukers, ursans and ranger tanks then Steel Wall or a guild group is your home, not here. This build is ultimately defined by its speed, and therefore has been made to suit that purpose. I think maybe adding a collection of varients that slow you down is possibly counter-productive. PS ;) ursan you might be lucky to get under an hour run. <font color="Pink">Lau  [[Image:User_Athrun_Feya_Hamster.png‎ ]] ( <font color="Gray">athrun | <font color="Gray">feya ) 08:38, 2 August 2008 (EDT)
 * "This is a up-to-date 12 member deep group focused on completing the elite mission The Deep quickly, in Hard Mode." We said Quickly for a reason. This build aims at speed - you change the build, beat the record and then sure, feel free to add whatever you change, but I Don't fancy your chances at it. Some ursan it, they take forever. But thats for HoM so it doesn't matter if you take an hour not 30 mins - your only doing it once. Ursans aren't going to farm deep, because you could make a character of the right profession, rush thru cantha and have all the skills and do ten runs before your ursan does 2. Andy 09:03, 2 August 2008 (EDT)

New variant
Wouldn't Unyielding Aura with Holy Haste now be a viable alternative to Healer's Boon and Rebirth for the monks? It would also speed up the initial ressing of the necromancers because the monk can just run in and have an instant res without needing to recharge energy. Just a thought. Kokuou 04:21, 10 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Oh yeah, AND it resses with full health and mana with no downtime for the ressee's skills. Kokuou 04:25, 10 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Definately. It's already proven to be more efficient <font color="Pink">Lau  [[Image:User_Athrun_Feya_Hamster.png‎ ]] ( <font color="Gray">athrun | <font color="Gray">feya ) 05:49, 10 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Nice. The fastest time I ever got (with a PuG, mind you) was 27 minutes or something. My guild isn't big into these kind of elite mission speed runs, but it'd be nice to go with a group that is. o_O Kokuou 07:40, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
 * ....holy shit.--66.192.104.13 11:52, 19 November 2008 (EST)
 * wait. Look at the mission map. they've only been in the last room...--66.192.104.13 11:54, 19 November 2008 (EST)
 * dc/rc will reset the dots on your minimap. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 15:25, 19 November 2008 (EST)

Defy Pain
Don't hurt me but would Defy Pain with it's recent update be a viable skill to run as your elite? Damage reduction is really nice. 122.104.161.96 02:49, 19 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Did you read the usage at all? There IS a reason for Shadow Meld fyi. Life Guardian 03:27, 19 August 2008 (EDT)

viper's def
isnt that boosted a long time ago? isnt it a spell and cant the oni not shadow stap pass your tank wall?

think that it will be verry hard to kill all the oni's at once. if they all shadowstepp pass the wall and go to the casters it is best that they all ball to getter so there area dmg still affect most of the onni's Student of goa 12:34, 20 August 2008 (EDT)student of goa


 * Because Viper's Defence is a "random teleport", if you use it while standing next to a wall, youve a chance of not moving at all - if it tries to teleport you into the wall. Thats why tanks ball the onis in juts and corners, so they jump about less. 2 SS and 1000+ damage from CoP and Wandering Eye kills them fast enough for them to usually not go anywhere, except from the occasional stray which will die pretty quick anyway, while the tank goes on for the next group. Basically, the old "tank wall" thing is only used in Pain, Lethargy and Depletion. Andy 14:18, 22 August 2008 (EDT)
 * It still works fine. even if the oni's get behind your line, they still have to ball up to get your casters. so they still die quick.--66.192.104.13 11:50, 19 November 2008 (EST)

Faction Blessings in Deep
Recent update added this. The build we run since rebirth bug was fixed requires a lot more experience & co-ordination, nothing a pug could handle, so we agreed not to update this build with it. We might find an easier solution for pugs or guilds wanting to try, but probably wont. Any ideas feel free to put forwards. As I'm sure many of you are wondering, you gain between 8k and 9k faction from one run. 20k an hour is nais. Andy 13:46, 14 November 2008 (EST)

the rebirth vs update
rebirth still usable>.> or even unyielding aura as it will still teleport dead player behind the gate between second major room and third. unyielding would be nicer to use and can replace HB for slightly more heal but less spam due to casting time. edit: forgot to sign and as far as i know there's no serious exploit of rebirth. Soul4hdwn 16:31, 18 November 2008 (EST)
 * But it ain't usable to teleport a fourth player into the fisrt rooms. <font color="Orange">Fox007  [[Image:User Fox007 sig.png|User:Fox007]] 16:32, 18 November 2008 (EST)
 * i question why that would be required then...as long as there is knockdown and a rebirth (and alot of damage) nothing goes wrong. 164.106.166.23 11:22, 19 November 2008 (EST)

Updated
Sorted the builds and guide to be match the not so recent rebirth update. Removed the tag so idiots can stop playing around with it and don't mess up the build any more. Andy 11:36, 28 November 2008 (EST)

Recall?
Recall seems like it would do the job of shadow meld just as well but frees up the elite. - Maybe I missed something but if not, it means SF tanks could work or the warriors could take an elite etc. Also Visions of Regret may make a nice variation over one of the current mesmer elites. should clear mobs nicely? Xiay 09:51, 2 December 2008 (EST)


 * Recall would allow Defy Pain. There's a whole host of reasons why it doesn't matter, though - not least of which is "you don't need to lose the insane damage a proper warrior brings for a tank that'll take 0 damage from everything as compared to the 20 damage he'll take if your monks know what they're doing". -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 10:37, 2 December 2008 (EST)
 * Read usage. Meld is taken over Recall so that the Mesmers can use Arcane Mimicry at the gate so you don't have 3 dead people to be ressed through. SF tanks are messy, harder to run and don't work well in Depletion, Failure, Scorpion or Fear. Defy Pain is a waste, no time to get adrenaline, most things hit for 0 and you have monks that can have permanent seed on the tanks. VoR and ESurge are possible variants, but unnecessary and you lose energy management, damage and can only take either Empathy or Wandering eye effectively. Andy 12:19, 2 December 2008 (EST)


 * This entire build, and especially your response, makes me sad. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 12:30, 2 December 2008 (EST)
 * The fact you come here, think you know everything about all these builds and that you know best makes me sad. I'm sorry, want to hold the damage off for 10 secs to I can sword them a bit to get adrenaline guys? Andy 12:52, 2 December 2008 (EST)


 * Did you miss the part where I said tank builds suck entirely? A trio of warriors and a trio of monks are all you need for the first room, after which point you can use warriors, paragons, assassins, dervishes, what have you, to make the wall and bring proper damage characters. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 15:00, 2 December 2008 (EST)
 * Did you not read the builds name? Also, Warriors, Paragons, Assassins, Dervishes, what have you, do no damage in comparison to the cryers. This build shows the best builds of everything we have tried - that's why there aren't 5 or 6 subpar variants there. Andy 15:42, 2 December 2008 (EST)
 * I'm pretty sure it doesn't say "cryway tank group". I still don't see what good you think the mesmers are doing compared to, say, cry fire eles, nor where you get the idea that splinter scythes, big hammers, and various melee aoe don't do a lot of damage, but like I said, this is the bad build. People with skill run balanced instead of this gimmick. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 15:57, 2 December 2008 (EST)
 * Kinda says that the point of this build is to complete the Deep quickly, and this build accomplishes that a lot faster than balanced. Ironboot 16:01, 2 December 2008 (EST)
 * I'm sorry, did I do something to offend you? Was there a need for the offenses? Tanks are required to do deep at any decent speed due to the high amount of foes, all of which can be easily balled, making AoE the most useful source of damage. As it is, Cry of Pain does this best. Cry fire eles aren't used because we tried them and they weren't as effective as mesmers. I fail to see the point in taking builds that aren't the best, or giving bad builds to the community. Good luck running balanced in deep well, and I'm still trying to see where skill is required in builds that have permanent SY and when you can get by with c-space spam. It's just the same as ursan, except you don't need to worry about that 123 spam slipping to 4 and you losing ursan. Andy 16:10, 2 December 2008 (EST)
 * Come back when your monks are capable of healing the wall when they take actual damage. Then maybe you can talk about skill. :/ -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 16:23, 2 December 2008 (EST)
 * How are you defining 'actual damage'? With the right runes etc Oni hit tanks for 0-2dmg in HM. Don't see how this vaguely relates to skill in any way?

Mesmers and SoI is used because it allows you to keep max attributes in several different magic types (and also means theres no rank requirement Sunspear), useful particularly for Empathy, Meteor Shower, Deep Freeze and Mimic'd SS <font color="Pink">Lau  ( <font color="Gray">athrun | <font color="Gray">feya ) 19:31, 2 December 2008 (EST)


 * If your monks can't heal more than the 0-2 damage the tanks take each time they're hit, they're bad monks. Furthermore, if you're never taking any damage, why do you have sig stamina? Furthermore, who the fuck cares about all that defense when you can drop a lot of it and simply have your monks cast heal party once every five seconds or so and sop up all the damage dealt?
 * By "actual damage" I meant red numbers that exceed 30. If your monks are so bad they can't heal more than the 0-2 damage these tank builds take, they lack skill.
 * My beef with sig illusions is that you tend to be better off simply focusing in two or three specs. You really don't need 14 (or even 10) fast casting, and every non-primary attribute in the game is fine with 10-12 spec (thus why the 11-10-10 spec works so well).
 * -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 19:47, 2 December 2008 (EST)


 * Okay so theres two issues here. First healing - I'll think about this properly later, but sitll don't think i understand what you're saying or how monk "skill level" is relevent at all, the Deep is not something that is difficult to heal in a team like this. Scorpion is the main challenge, but with 6 seeds, heal party, ua and hb i'm pretty confident that there isn't a problem (and lets face it, if there is you should start taking Dunkoro).


 * Second issue, alturnatives to SoI:


 * First of all there is Energy Surge. E-surge allows you to do a 2-part spike as the suggested build does (E-Surge+CoP vs, Wandering Eye+CoP) - so to find out which is better we must focus on the main differences between E-Surge and Wandering. From experience, wandering eye can be treated as unconditional as far as anything in The Deep is concerned, so that isn't an issue. Also there is the issue of recharge time, E-surge is double that of Wandering and therefore sometimes isn't recharged by the next spike.


 * Next there is Visions of Regret. Not much there can be said about Visions other than damage over time isn't particuarly useful in a spike (given, i know we have 2 SS, but they serve other purposes in rooms at the start and for end Kanaxai). As stated above, things in The Deep attack/wand noticably more than they use skills.


 * Another elite that may be useful in Deep is Shared Burden as a snare. But again, why use this when SoI -> Auspicious Incantation -> Deep Freeze gives a more potent slow-down hex, and still recharges faster?


 * None of these elites offer anything which the current build cannot do.


 * Moreover, all three elites assume a large attibute investment in their respective magic type and then a further attribute investment in fast casting and possibly inspiration magic for some energy management. Sounds alright, but you lost the versatility that SoI allowed by effectively maxing out all magic attributes and lost those useful Ele spells (like MS and DF) that still linger since the Steel wall SF builds.


 * So, I herd essays are good. <font color="Pink">Lau  [[Image:User_Athrun_Feya_Hamster.png‎ ]] ( <font color="Gray">athrun | <font color="Gray">feya ) 23:19, 2 December 2008 (EST)

kurzick skills
[build name="Deep Cryway CoP Spiker" prof=mesme/any illu=12+3+1 fast=12+1][signet of illusions][arcane echo][cry of pain][ether nightmare][empathy@16][wandering eye][optional][auspicious incantation@16][/build]

in a Luxon area? looks like GW is biased &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.12.232.121 (contribs).
 * That's Because pvx automatically makes it a kurzick version of the skill. <font color="Orange">Fox007  [[Image:User Fox007 sig.png|User:Fox007]] 13:54, 9 December 2008 (EST)

Meta tag and voting
If this is meta, then why is it in testing still? Also, how the hell has this been in testing for so long? <font face="Arial" color="gray">18:37, 3 March 2009
 * Because when clever old Armond decided a build that can do deep in 14 minutes is bad and wiped the votes, nobody could be bothered to sort out the builds or put it in featured so it's sat here. Andy 18:41, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm just suggesting that this either needs to be vetted (which only requires 1 more vote), or we remove the meta tag. It seems to me that the two are mutually exclusive. [[Image:KJ needed a new sig....sig.png]] <font face="Arial" color="gray">18:45, 3 March 2009

Skill updates
The shadow meld warrior's stances have been updated, their durations are now reduced by 3 seconds, does that make any difference?
 * Not really, just makes bad tanks worse. But yeah, taking soldier's defense instead of diciplined stance means that with cons you can cover the full recharge time (porogon and i am unstoppable make this usable). Athrun Feya 10:38, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Has anyone noticed that the Curses Mesmer has signet of illusion, no points in illusion magic, and 12 points in curses...-- Ikimono <font color ="Teal">Needs more Paragon 17:13, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, that's me half arsing edits. Sorting it now Athrun Feya 17:26, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Mental Block
Anyone? <font color="Orange">Fox007  15:50, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Chilblains, Temple Strike, Expunge Enchantments, Feedback, Kanaxai Aspect of Failure, Kanaxai Aspect of Shadows and Disenchantment all say no. Andy 17:56, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I lol'd. Andy-1. Random PvXers-0.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 18:02, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
 * D: <font color="Orange">Fox007  [[Image:User Fox007 sig.png|User:Fox007]] 19:18, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Essence
The perma needs an essence of celerity to work.--PVX-Tyris 02:22, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * No shit.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 02:26, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Not to mention that you need it if you're wanting to do it in 20 minutes or so.-- Ikimono <font color ="Teal">Needs more Paragon [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png|24px]] 18:25, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Nope--Relyk 20:20, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * He meant times around 12.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 20:23, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Warriors
in which order should they chain the stances?Illoyon 18:17, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * it can be varied pretty easy. probably DS "YMLAD!" > SD "IAU!" > DE "YMLAD!" etc.. (or it should be dead at that point.-- Ikimono <font color ="Teal">Needs more Paragon [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png|24px]] 18:32, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * With Essence, I IAU!, SD, DS, SD etc (means DS is up while IaU! is down so your not left with no armour buff at all, tho thats not a problem with enduring), use ymlad when its needed regardless of stances - healing deep is piss easy anyway, few secs without stances makes no difference in any part when kd is needed. Andy 11:26, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Though i've seen a lot of groups that wont use an essence in the first rooms...-- Ikimono <font color ="Teal">Needs more Paragon [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png|24px]] 17:17, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Shadow Meld
Any reason both tanks need the elite? Logically, only need one for mimicry. Recall can replace it, but there is the down time from recall. Just an idea to hash out. Kyle van der Meer 02:29, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

Dont you...?
Only need just one Shadow Meld warrior for people to mimic off of? You could use Gladiator's Defense on the other warrior or you could bring a R/A Deep Defense Tank.
 * Glad's Defense causes scatter and damage is already plentiful - i'm pretty sure Whirling Defense might scatter in the same way. Athrun Feya 14:45, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

REMOVE THE META FFS??
HOW IS THIS A META DEEP IS EMPTY ALL DAY IN EVERY SINGLE DISTRICT HOW CAN THIS BE A META FFS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 * Wow your dumb. Andy 19:38, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * you're* -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] {&#123;Bacon}} 01:12, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Join LoD and run a leet guild group--Relyk 02:25, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * More like [agro}. We dont really do Deep.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 02:28, 15 June 2009 (UTC)


 * That has to be a joke life. It's a funny one too. I'll be laughing about that one all night -.-. Кμяʐїκ>ςטᵡᴏᴎ 02:57, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Huh?  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 03:08, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * urite, luxons arent good enuf for lod--Relyk 04:03, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Suck it Andy
 * Gogo random angry guy!  <font color="SeaGreen">athrunfeya [[Image:User_Athrun_Feya_sig_image.jpg]] <font color="SeaGreen">speaks  17:44, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Nerf?
yes/no? 24.6.127.61 03:04, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * yes [[Image:Muffin.jpg|19px]]<font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  03:04, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Still doable with minor adjustments. PVX-Ironboot 03:05, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Same with most cryway builds, theres a lot of extra damage. Just need to see how much effect the nerf has had.  <font color="SeaGreen">athrunfeya [[Image:User_Athrun_Feya_sig_image.jpg]] <font color="SeaGreen">speaks  08:41, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

So we tested the same original build. Damage is perfectly fine still (just get to use wandering eye a bit more than before!) and Onis had weirdass aggro anyway so the amount of scatter is no different. Few notes tho:  <font color="Maroon">Athrun Feya   <font color="RosyBrown">[agro]  14:02, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * At the start, room 1 and room 2 are unaffected. Need to comeup with a way of doing r3 and r4 easily though. Thinking maybe ymlad+epidemic as a snare.
 * No RoJ on kanaxai at the end, although he wont be able to move he won't attack either so empathy, insidious and ss wont do damage.

Still Meta?
Is this still any good as the Meta, or there now a better team build for The Deep? --Sam6555 16:48, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This is still the fastest way thought it.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 17:01, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Only done a few runs since the nerfs but it still works pretty well - best time was 14. I'm gonna make these builds more pug friendly soon. Andy 19:56, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Does the Paragon still needs the ashes? The 2 IMS-shouts got buffed, their recharge is 20 seconds now! Death Pact Signet can be change with Signet of Return or "We Shall Return!". Therefore I'd make him second profession Mesmer so he can at least join Crying. Next question: Can interrupt a 1second Binding Ritual in Hardmode, where the monsters got decreased cast time?
 * Keeping TNtF up longer is hawt. Life Guardian 03:09, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * If you can't interrupt a one second cast time your pretty bad :/ Drahgal Meir 03:10, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It's actually like under a half a second because of HM. Life Guardian 03:11, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * They use it on recharge don't they? Drahgal Meir 03:11, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * If they live that long, youre doing something wrong. Life Guardian 03:23, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Ups, I don't PvE so I don't know. Drahgal Meir 03:23, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * They use on recharge if no other restoration spirits are in range. If balled properly, roj + cry + ss will kill them all but a few strays which will split, making it no more of a problem than it was before. <font color="Red">A <font color="Black">ndy 12:03, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

IMO... The build is great, and it works great. However, almost nobody runs it. This is largely do to the unorganized state of play with the current generation of GW players. I see a lot of " balanced " teams consisting of similar monks, similar necros, but with spirit spammers and old school deep wall tanks. These pugs are naturally taking up to 10 times as long to complete the area. However, the majority are running the slower builds because they can comprehend them, and can make their random group at least get a grasp for what is supposed to happen. I don't think there will be a faster build anytime soon, but this build seems to have slipped from meta.Kyle van der Meer 19:56, October 12, 2009 (UTC)

Build Substitutions
I realize the intent of this build is for the fastest possible run time. That said, the build is now part of the meta. Would it be a good idea to stick in a couple of substitute builds for dervish, elementalist, ritualist, and ranger? This would slow the build down, naturally, but it would make the build more encompassing. Maybe a variants section at the bottom with a note about slower runs? Kyle van der Meer 17:51, December 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Na, prolly leave this one alone. Maybe make a new page for a pugway version, since variants are quite extensive and its no longer going for speed so tactics change. - [[Image:Porororroro lau.gif]] <font color="Black">Athrun <font color="Black">Feya - 18:06, December 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * I see your point, how about four links, or even one, to builds that would be standard 'alternatives' for the classes not represented. These builds could contain all changes in tactics required, and would remove the threat of much duplicated information from the wiki.  Replace a mesmer by an ele, etc. Kyle van der Meer 18:53, December 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * New build page, standard tanks, monks, ss and bip, with several different options for damage? Rather like this? <font color="Red">A <font color="Black">ndy 18:59, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

wait um it says the FoC necro maintains spinal shivers on kanaxai but i dont see the build :P 84.255.207.133 17:01, December 20, 2009 (UTC)
 * ah, someone changed the builds but not the usage. the SS now does that. - [[Image:Porororroro lau.gif]] <font color="Black">Athrun <font color="Black">Feya - 17:32, December 20, 2009 (UTC)

Why the hell was this archived!?
Why did someone archive this and furthermore, left the SS Deep SC build un-archived?!?!? I agree that there have been several nerfs to the builds, but to be honest if you changed the team name from "Speed Clear" to "Team Build" then it would be worth keeping! The build still works as a whole and it can complete the Deep in 30 minutes to 1 hour even post nerf also it is a good start for teams wishing to complete the deep in what is an essentially balanced team for the first time. However, there are several things I propose that should be changed: The Shadow Form Sin should be swapped out for an SoS Spirit Spammer, The Shadowstep room can be handled easily without the perma sin and I've actually never run with one. The Alternative is to make another runner and tank to replace the perma. The Porogon should be made optional and the alternative should be another Healers Boon Monk. The Warriors should be given new builds including "Swap" which I will post later. What do you guys think? Your input would be greatly appreciated and I think it would be beneficial to keep this build out of the archive section, so can I change the tag? --Sir Biggus of Aggro 03:25, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * The SS version replaced this version. Also, lol at optional poro. Life   Guardian  03:37, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * i think it was finally time to put cryway to rest. as the tag says, several nerfs have hit this build petty bad and it's gradually built up. Although the damage is fine, the bars here are really outdated. SS deep offers a safer (also actually quicker!) alternative. - <font color="SteelBlue">Athrun <font color="Black">Feya [[Image:Lau_bfly.gif]] - 11:36, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * also the tactics here are written as if you have a very competent team who knows deep pretty well, ss deep has a little more leeway and i'd say is more suitable. i'm also in the process of creating a series of pugway builds, which are basically guides as to what you should run and include all those little tricks. - <font color="SteelBlue">Athrun <font color="Black">Feya [[Image:Lau_bfly.gif]] - 11:39, March 3, 2010 (UTC)