Build talk:A/any Dagger Spammer

Olook, I just won PvE without even using a damn elite. Enjoy it for a month or two. --  Jai  writes a  lot . . . 03:49, September 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * Jagged strike is bad in PvE :/ Drahgal Meir 03:50, September 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * a 1/2sec attack with a 1sec recharge is good no matter where the hell you are. --[[Image:Jaigoda_endrant.jpg|/rant]]  Jai  writes a  lot . . . 03:55, September 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * With an IAS just use golden fox strike tbh. Drahgal Meir 03:57, September 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * Golden Fox strike will slow down DB spam? BLUE LAZERS   Eat It User-Baby Blue Lazer sig pic.jpg‎ 04:01, September 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * 4s recharges suck, and also IIRC IAS's affect the activation time of .5s attacks too, so it's more like 1/3sec attacks. Jagged Strike >>>>> every other lead here. --[[Image:Jaigoda_endrant.jpg|/rant]]  Jai  writes a  lot . . . 04:04, September 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * if you use moebius strike, you wont need a fast recharging lead attack--Relyk 05:44, September 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually... This build does only marginally less DB than MS/DB. At the same time, it attacks faster than MS/DB... and even faster than locust's fury.  Tbh, this build is pretty amazing, especially with lots of damage buffs.  All of the upsides of MS/DB and locusts with no downside and more flexibility.  Try it out.  I've been using this build with Fox's Promise as my elite.  --User: Thc  08:06, September 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * This should deal more damage than MS>DB even without buffs, and if you add SoH it should be like twice the DPS of MS>DB. Also, Magehunters should be good for the extra .5s attack for faster attack speed if you don't need Fox's Promise or Flashing Blades.. --[[Image:Jaigoda_endrant.jpg|/rant]]  Jai  writes a  lot . . . 14:18, September 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * Without buffs MS/DB does more damage than this, not by much but it does more. Because of the 3 second recharge of Fox Fangs this deals less AoE aswell. Not sure about Magehunters, I'd probably take something more useful to be honest. Devika 17:49, September 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * So barely less DPS for retarded synergy with buffs and SY. Everyone brings Barbs, which is more than enough to push it past MS>DB's DPS. I mentioned Magehunter just because Thc tried to get it out of optionals. --[[Image:Jaigoda_endrant.jpg|/rant]]  Jai  writes a  lot . . . 18:52, September 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * Nooo this has higher dps then MS/DB while the target is above 50% hp x,x BLUE LAZERS   Eat It User-Baby Blue Lazer sig pic.jpg‎ 21:22, September 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * How do you figure that out when Fox Fangs has a 3 second recharge while Moebius Strike has a 2 second recharge? Jagged Strike does no extra bonus damage either. The main benefit this has is the freedom of elite choice. Devika 08:29, September 4, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well I was thinking more of the freedom of elite choice gives you higher dps unless you bring more utility... BLUE LAZERS  Eat It User-Baby Blue Lazer sig pic.jpg‎ 23:43, September 4, 2009 (UTC)
 * Jagged Strike may give no damage bonus but Fox Fangs does as much damage as MS does, while jaagged simply gives you another attack (therefore more damage). -- Frosty  Mc Admin  00:50, September 5, 2009 (UTC)
 * jagged is fine if you have buffs--Relyk 02:53, September 5, 2009 (UTC)
 * Jagged is just the equivalent of an auto attack that inflicts bleeding tbh. What you are essentially doing is spamming Fox Fangs and Death Blossom bonus damage in an equivalent way to spamming MS/DB, but the damage is marginally less than MS/DB over time because Fox Fangs has a longer recharge time. I actually tested this on MoD and MS/DB (no buffs just straight attacks as both can take buffs anyway) squeezed past this. Again that doesn't make this bad though, the strength this has is it does comparable damage with a free elite, though you lose potential AoE. If your party knows how to ball up foes you're probably better off with MS/DB (GPS>DB>MS>DB etc), if not, or you need a specific elite for some purpose then take this. I'd actually suggest making this A/any and make the secondary free allowing more elite choice freedom for greater versatility. Especially if you have an Imbagon in your party and don't need Save Yourselves. Devika 03:22, September 5, 2009 (UTC)
 * The problem I have with this build is that i can't seem to find a proper elite that fits the style of the build, it's like no elite is good enough for it :s--Tyrael-- 21:17, September 7, 2009 (UTC)
 * battle rage ^^--Relyk 22:12, September 7, 2009 (UTC)
 * This build allows me to use Shadow Meld and still kill stuff <3--TheShortOneKlhksjdnfsig.jpg $ɧor₮  talk  22:17, September 7, 2009 (UTC)
 * Shadow meld in pve? Battle rage in pve? what?????--Tyrael-- 13:56, September 8, 2009 (UTC)
 * Battle rage is viable in a few select warrior builds. Shadow Meld, i cant see why you would use that in general purpose pve...-- Ikimono "Mutton Chop Man" [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png|24px]] 14:30, September 8, 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah but I meant in this build...--Tyrael-- 14:39, September 8, 2009 (UTC)
 * Battle Rage isn't a bad idea, means you get lol Save Yourselves spam and there is less time between monstors (like, quicker c spacing!). -- Frosty  Mc Admin  15:44, September 8, 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok man read the description : "For 5...17...20 seconds, you move 33% faster and gain double adrenaline from attacks. Battle Rage ends if you use any non-adrenal skills. " And your main attack skills are non-adrenal so will cancel BR....--Tyrael-- 17:10, September 8, 2009 (UTC)
 * pretty much for getting to the next guy and while you wait for fox fangs to recharge--Relyk 17:13, September 8, 2009 (UTC)
 * You could just use Dash and save your elite skill. Devika 22:26, September 8, 2009 (UTC)

Backbreaker in PvE? WHAT?--Tyrael-- 10:41, September 10, 2009 (UTC)
 * @Devika: Uh huh, and then what would you replace for an elite? Or of course, you could be hawt and go without one altogether. --[[Image:Jaigoda_endrant.jpg|/rant]]  Jai  writes a  lot . . . 14:13, September 10, 2009 (UTC)
 * You could change critical eye for way of the assassin for the + crit chance, but then again you lose the +1 e on crit, just an idea...--Tyrael-- 15:05, September 10, 2009 (UTC)
 * No need for an IAS tbh.--TheShortOneKlhksjdnfsig.jpg $ɧor₮  talk  15:08, September 10, 2009 (UTC)
 * Critical Agility says hai. Also, they mentioned WotA for the additional chance of landing a critical hit, not for it's (crappy) IAS. Spaggage  talk  16:35, September 10, 2009 (UTC)
 * Wut. He meant there is no need for IAS, as in there shouldn't be one. I agree. --Carnivorous CupcakeCarnCupcake Muffin.jpg 18:15, September 10, 2009 (UTC)
 * CA is too fucking good to pass up. More attacks, more armor, and better than any other skill that might replace it. --[[Image:Jaigoda_endrant.jpg|/rant]]  Jai  writes a  lot . . . 18:59, September 10, 2009 (UTC)
 * IMO optional, "BUH!", "IATS!", CA.--72.189.82.222 19:15, September 10, 2009 (UTC)
 * CA still speeds up death blossom and gives extra armor, so definately worth staying in the build--Tyrael-- 22:30, September 10, 2009 (UTC)
 * Someimtes I bring Ursan as an elite to relive old memories. 2 skill bars is sexy.--Gl0ry Check out my Dumb PvE Ideas! 21:57, September 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * All 3 PvE skills are pretty solid, so I have trouble using any other PvE skills for the optional slot. I've been running this with a spiritway team lately and using Temple Strike there.  It makes for very fun h/h runs of Glint's Challenge... --Dfscott 16:13, September 22, 2009 (UTC)

Actually in theory this only deals 5 DPS less than DB/MS (not a whole lot). This is according to the Master of Damage though. It does have the advantage that it frees up your elite slot. Rada Arashi  03:41, September 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * INSERT SEEPING WOUND TO RETAIN LOST DPS! -- -Ch  ao  s is  gay -   13:04, September 23, 2009 (UTC)
 * This doesn't do a better job than ms/db at spamming db (as in frequency) but it has more attacks per second so if you use it with barbs and soh you get absolutely insane damage output. --Carnivorous CupcakeCarnCupcake Muffin.jpg 11:51, October 1, 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh how long that has been argued for Locust's Fury.-- Ikimono "Mutton Chop Man" [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png|24px]] 12:13, October 1, 2009 (UTC)
 * This is admittedly a lot better than LF. LF without buffs had very little DPS (maybe 20-30, even with AScan), while this has barely less than MS>DB (like, 90 DPS). Also, this actually attacks even faster than LF, and about 80% faster than MS>DB. That means that every buff you put on this will be 80% more effective than if put on MS>DB. That's HUGE, considering 80% of SoH is 19.2 (or an extra 19.2 DPS that MS>DB wouldn't get). In fact, with SoH alone and considering AScan, you're adding ~78 DPS to this build.. I don't see any other physical build even coming close to a number like that (besides possibly critscythe). --[[Image:Jaigoda_endrant.jpg|/rant]]  Jai  writes a  lot . . . 17:08, October 1, 2009 (UTC)
 * Feels terrible seeing MS go isn't it? --Carnivorous CupcakeCarnCupcake Muffin.jpg 19:42, October 1, 2009 (UTC)
 * Though, JS.. is worse at pumping out DBs, which is a disadvantage when facing bunched up mobs (which you should). --Carnivorous CupcakeCarnCupcake Muffin.jpg 19:51, October 1, 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not that much more often. It's about .5s faster than this. That's not enough to level the playing field. --[[Image:Jaigoda_endrant.jpg|/rant]]  Jai  writes a  lot . . . 19:55, October 1, 2009 (UTC)
 * Depends. --Carnivorous CupcakeCarnCupcake Muffin.jpg 20:18, October 1, 2009 (UTC)

Needs Rush --GodofJur 02:48, November 13, 2009 (UTC)
 * Why the fuck would you run 25% non-partywide IMS in PvE? Shazzy diddles 03:22, November 13, 2009 (UTC)
 * cause dash costs energy--Relyk 03:36, November 13, 2009 (UTC)
 * takes too long changing targets and chasing kiting foes --GodofJur 04:53, November 13, 2009 (UTC)
 * Or you do PvE the right way with tons of AoE and snares. Shazzy diddles 07:10, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

This build is so strong.  Pimp strong  hand  03:53, November 28, 2009 (UTC)
 * except it doesnt have crit agility mainbar so no--Relyk 09:02, November 28, 2009 (UTC)

This is like Empathy. Use to win PvE. Just vanquished Cantha in like 4 seconds. D: I don't know if you can superwin PvE, but this + SoH smite monk comes close. :) LessQQmorePewPew 20:37, January 14, 2010 (UTC)

Post Update
I know it hasnt happened yet, but after the update this will be an incredibly viable build. (be sure to look at the proposed changes and not what pvx lists. [build prof=Assassin/Warrior][Asuran Scan][Jagged Strike][Fox Fangs][Death Blossom]["Fear Me"][Soldier's Stance][Optional][Save Yourselves][/build] Ele Masmar 21:46, February 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * After what update? [[Image:Zyke-Sig.png]] 21:44, February 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Like i say, hasnt happened yet, but this is what they have proposed, http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feedback:Skill_update_previews/20100219[[Image:Ward_of_Weakness.jpg|19px]]Ele Masmar 21:46, February 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Go Warrior primary tbh. More advantages, can go 8+1 tactics etc., sins don't need the extra crits from fear me. -- Short 22:38, February 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Warriors wont have the energy, no WE [[Image:Ward_of_Weakness.jpg|19px]]Ele Masmar 23:15, February 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Crit agility gives you an additional 25 armor and 33% IMS, whats the point... --Frosty  [[Image:Frostcharge.jpg|19px]] 23:53, February 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * That you have an almost unstrippable IAS and huge block, along with high crit chances, fear me is just the shout shosen due to the crit increase and (if they keep the cost to 4 adren) its easy to maintain [[Image:Ward_of_Weakness.jpg|19px]]Ele Masmar 23:56, February 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Seems like a wasted elite if you ask me, you can take crit defences if you really want blocking... --Frosty  [[Image:Frostcharge.jpg|19px]] 23:56, February 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Still, crit defenses and agility are always gunna be on top, meaning theres a high chance that with any enchant removal they'll be removed[[Image:Ward_of_Weakness.jpg|19px]]Ele Masmar 00:00, February 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's PvE, nobody cares about that risk, mobs are too random. Your stance might just as well be stripped. There is a counter to everything. -- Chaos?  -- 00:03, February 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * True, but if the update comes out as theyve shown, i think this is a viable build that will be able to fit in the variants[[Image:Ward_of_Weakness.jpg|19px]]Masmar 00:08, February 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * This would probably be the best option tbh. Life   Guardian  00:07, February 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * &There are far less skills commonly encountered that remove stances than those that remove enchants[[Image:Ward_of_Weakness.jpg|19px]]Masmar 13:10, February 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * If Fear Me gets buffed for PvP, then lol@hammer warriors. [[Image:Zyke-Sig.png]] 21:37, February 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sure they stated it those updates were all for PvE? Masmarward.jpg Masmar 19:38, February 24, 2010 (UTC)

Variation?
Could one possibly:
 * Change the lead to [gw:Golden Fox Strike|Golden Fox Strike] for extra damage(And unblockable)
 * POSSIBLY Change the off to [gw:Wild Strike|Wild Strike] for another unblockable and stance removal.
 * Add [Palm Strike|Palm Strike] to help somewhat nullify interrupts, keep an almost constant cycle (It works. Even with 33% IAS, tested it), spam DB maybe even a little more, and to deal armor ignoring damage

For a possible variation? To make: [build prof=Assassin/Warrior Dagger=12+1+1 Critical=12+1][Golden Fox Strike][Wild Strike][Death Blossom][Asuran Scan][Palm Strike][critical eye][critical agility]["Save Yourselves!"][/build] Thoughts? I'm rather noob at making builds but I thought this would do better damage. 58.175.213.47 09:17, February 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * The 1/2 activation attacks result in more attacks per second. This is especially significant with buffs like SoH and Barbs, and building adrenaline for SY. Golden Fox and Wild also have longer recharges than Jagged and Fox Fangs. If you aren't using Jagged&rarr;Fox Fangs&rarr;DB you should probably use MS/DB. Toraen <font face="Courier New" color="DarkGoldenrod">TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png]] 21:17, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, total noob moment, sorry :( 58.175.213.47 20:25, February 24, 2010 (UTC)

new elite
seeping wound owns now.

Brawling Headbutt + Falling Lotus
Should be at least variants.

<3 Gives super attack spam tbh. LessQQ  moreQQ   15:30, March 7, 2010 (UTC)

Vow of Strength, Unsuspecting Strike
We'll assume max Asura and Ebon Vanguard ranks. To start things off, the current bar should do 58+75+75= 208 armor-ignoring damage, with EBSoH, 84+101+101 or 84+102+102= 286-288 armor-ignoring damage. The best possible chain you can get is Jagged->Fox->DB->Auto-attack->Jagged->Auto-attack, which takes 3.6783 seconds (your chain would normally be 3.33 seconds (recharge and activation time of Fox Fangs, but you'll interrupt an auto-attack). So, (58+75+75)/3.6783=57 DPS. With EBSoH, that's (26+84+101+101+26+26+26)/3.6783 or (26+84+102+102+26/0.6+26+26/0.6)/3.6783=115-116 DPS.

Note: /0.6 is for Double Strikes (2 X 0.3).

[build prof=A/D CriticalStrikes=11+2 DaggerMastery=11+1+1 EarthPrayers=8][Asuran Scan][Unsuspecting Strike][Fox Fangs][Death Blossom][Vow of Strength][Optional][Critical Eye][Critical Agility][/build]
 * [["By Ural's Hammer!"]
 * [[Ebon Battle Standard of Honor]

It forces you to play a team with few to no conditions, but may be worth it for the huge domoges. With "BUH!", one chain should do 595-599 in 2 seconds (271+90+117+117 or 271+90+119+119) armor-ignoring damage with max Asura, and depending how rounding works. Unsuspecting on its own does almost half of the total damage (so it should definitely at least be in the variants). The build's probably a little hard on the Energy, though, and EBSoH would be even worse, but EBSoH would net you 614 armor-ignoring damage (250+106+129+129) in 2 seconds and, of course, benefits the rest of your allies. However, you can't really look at DPS with this build, because after one use of your chain, Unsuspecting Strike becomes ineffective against a target below 90% Health, so, if you can't kill your target with one chain, your 271 or 250 damage lead becomes 82 or 99, losing 189 or 151 damage.

When solo, this may be the best, again, if Energy is possible (I haven't played GW in months, and I don't really intend to start):

That's 194+84+101+101 or 194+84+102+102 = 480-482 armor-ignoring damage in 2 seconds. Again, DPS drops the second time around on the same target because of Unsuspecting Strike, and you probably wouldn't be able to handle going through your whole chain twice. Normally, I would put "SY!" in that optional, but you may never be able to charge it, because monsters will drop too quickly and you'll spend a lot of time running. Golden Lotus Strike or Black Lotus Strike could be used to manage Energy.

I think it's actually better not to use an Elite than choose from a bunch of shitty ones. Flashing Blades: blocking is overrated; Fox's Promise: only useful sometimes; Seeping Wound: no; Shattering Assault: same as Fox's; WotA: Dagger crits are poo.

Also, Demonic Flesh will probably never be worth it. The most you can get out of it is 13 or 14 AoE DPS (3 attack skills, one with a 3 second recharge+0.33 activation, so 15 X 3/3.33=13.5). ــѕт. мıкε  17:23, March 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Tl;dr but I'm pretty sure maths doesn't make things good. :> LessQQ   moreQQ   21:53, March 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Summary: Asuran Scan+Unsuspecting Strike=168 armor-ignoring damage. It's hard on the Energy, buttfuck Elites, and use Golden Lotus Strike or Black Lotus Strike. Shit will also die before you can charge "SY!" ــѕт.  мıкε  22:29, March 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * K, I, and i'm pretty sure most people looking here, prefer just spamming 123. I mean, it's only PvE afterall. And not being able to get "SY!" up is a pretty bad drawback tbh, although it will probably charge while your auto-ing b/c you've got no enrgy left b/c you didn't bring Brawling + Falling Lotus. <3
 * Oh, and I buttfuck elites anyway. LessQQ   moreQQ   08:43, March 17, 2010 (UTC)

By Ural's in variants.
BuH should be in variants IMO. Used with WoTA, Strength of Honor, Great Dwarf Weapon, Asuran Scan and Order of Pain... you're looking at 200+DPS.Roarer 17:58, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree, it's a flat 25% increase in dps while it's up, and affects weapon/crit damage, attack skill damage, and the damage of buffs others put on you like SoH. Sure it's not as hax as asuran scan but it's still good. Necromas 18:33, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * I did put it in there, but it was removed after ~5mins due to the fact that 'By Ural's sucks on Physicals dude' gonna go pay the master of damage a visit and get some numbers.Roarer 19:56, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Decided to compare vs "I am the strongest" as this is another variant.
 * I used my normal Assassin PvE build, with Norn Rank 7, Delver rank 5 and I've just noticed I was using +5e daggers which weren't customised, will probably repeat the test to prove BuH's superiority... but anyway:


 * Results:


 * BuH: 1]  17,582 over 180 = 97 DPS --- 2]  17,126 over 180 = 95 DPS            Ave = 96 DPS.


 * Iats: 1] 17,405 over 180 = 96 DPS --- 2]  17,308 over 180 = 96 DPS            Ave = 96 DPS.


 * I think this shows that BuH SHOULD be in variants. Considering also that there was nothing around to extend the BuH duration.Roarer 20:30, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Lol masterofdamage. Spaggage  talk  20:33, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sometimes you have to post hard facts to show people something which seems obvious to others.Roarer 20:35, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * You could argue that iats is more effective because it's time isn't wasted by running after enemies. Anyways, should probably be in variants, but it's by no means the best option. Life   Guardian  20:44, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Possibly. But chances are if you're playing with minions and/or spirits you'll be able to upkeep BuH more than the standard time. Also, shadowstep can be used to fix that problem if you wish to take one. I just wanted to do this to prove to people why I put it in variants, and also to show that it shouldn't have been removed.Roarer 20:49, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * there's better skills you can bring than buh-- Relyk  talk  00:19, April 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * if you got spirits ect around then you can often easily cause BuH's duration to outlast its recharge. a flat 25% boost is nice...BUT, its fighting for a slot with crit agility, asuran scan and SY, thats why its a bitch to fit into a bar. &gt;&gt;Jayson&lt;&lt;&lt; 02:27, April 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Unless you've got an Imbagon or someone else maintaining "SY!" with you, it's not worth it. It will affect the AoE from DB, but a scythe would benefit a lot more from "BUH!", and you can only use DB as often as you use Fox Fangs: once every 3.333...3 seconds. ــѕт.  мıкε  11:19, April 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * People are telling me that "By Ural's is not the best option." or "There's better skills to take than BuH" Well that may be the case, but it is also the case for all variants in any build: Depending on the situation and/or team you're with, different PvE skills give different results. I'm not saying its the best. I'm saying that it deserves to be in variants. Also, the critical agility point again is dependant on your team, as I usually play with ER protters EoCs are used and WoTA gets you up to 33%. Which allows you to take 2 PvE skills to boost damage if you're spamming SY!Roarer 12:35, April 21, 2010 (UTC)

Locust"s Fury
I tried this build with Locust's fury and "SY!" as optional skills. With the IAS from Critical Agility and the double strikes from Locust's it's possible to use "SY!" more frequently, thus protecting your party more with +100 AL. Turned out great for me at least. --81.246.186.34 19:32, May 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * you should be spamming the shit out of your attack chain, not auto attacking...Lf is bad. DOESNT affect attack skills..::Jayson::: 20:00, May 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * You still have 2 auto-attacks per chain (Jagged->Fox Fangs->Death Blossom->Jagged->Auto-attack->Auto-attack->restart); with Locust's Fury, each auto-attack will have an 80% chance to double strike, netting 0.5 more attacks (1.8-1.3=0.5) than without Locust's Fury per auto-attack, so one more attack than usual per cycle (8.6 total, on average), which takes 3.66666 seconds: 2.345454 attacks per second, where your usual is 2.07272 attacks per second. The difference isn't huge but still noticeable. ــѕт.  мıкε  20:23, May 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * thats true but 1 extra attack per 4 seconds if it procs in optimal conditions without lag hitting skills on perfect timing, still isnt worth taking and wont make a shit of difference in keeping sy up, especially when your target should be dead after 1 chain anyway, then you change target, rinse repeat if there are any to kill, the time to change target negates the need to auto attack unless the player/team blows balls and cant buff/kill worth shit, and if your target has a lot of hp, then mb gives better outputs for continuous mb>db>mb>db. Really just doesnt cut it as an elite worth takin for this when you use it :( from exp ::Jayson::: 22:02, May 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, locust's Fury is crap. Overkill in the sense that you need either extra energy to spam and extra adrenaline to spam SY. It will be active very rarely, and if you try to milk it you lose extra single-target DPS from attack skills and AoE damage from Death Blossom. Pointless skill is pointless; there is a thread about it's pointlessness on Guru in the Campfire->Assassin forum. Minion Splinter Weapon.jpg Excluded 21:51, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

Meta
have you met PvE? Minion  Excluded 22:34, May 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * PuGs hate sins of any kind. --[[Image:Jimp.jpg|19px]] <font color="#00aaff">WhiteAsIce 05:15, July 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * I hate it when players join a PUG with a bad build. I'm certain you're wrong, anyway. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 09:36, July 5, 2010 (UTC)

Wastrel´s
Seeing as this doesnt have any "real" Elit, why not just get some fun/halfway useful mobility through WC, KD is secondary effect but still nice when it triggers. Could maby be added to Variants. Be carful with running in Pugs though cuz monks will rage becous of the overextending. 193.235.25.18 09:35, July 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * Because it's not even "halfway useful." Shadowsteps are fairly useless for offensive purposes in PvE. The KD isn't that useful either. <font color="blue" face="cambria">Tru... <font color="green" face="cambria">hardly <font color="green" face="cambria">working 12:06, July 19, 2010 (UTC)

Critical Defense
Why isn't critical defense listed in variants. In my opinion this build hasn't got any survival skills except if you take Flashing Blades. I think is better to take Critical defense for more survivability instead of I Am the Strongest or BuH.3:44, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * You don't need survivability on your own bar if you set up your heroes decently with heals and prots. Feel free to add it as a variant, just not mainbar. <font face="Courier New" color="Black">Toraen <font face="Courier New" color="DarkGoldenrod">TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png]] 01:10, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Also keep in mind crit agility gives you armor in the 90's. Wait, wtf, the second post is time stamped earlier than the first. Necromas 00:31, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

... of Enchanting
Really? I can't remember the last time I was playing my sin and crit agility expired in combat from the duration running out. I think +hp would be a heck of a lot more useful. Necromas 00:24, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
 * An enchanting mod doesn't affect Critical Agility except for the first cast, so it's completely useless here. Relyk is just stupid, I'm going back and fixing his crap. -- Jai .  -  17:09, December 29 2010 (UTC)
 * I was wondering if that was the case but I just assumed not since like you said that makes it even more pointless. Necromas 18:01, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
 * fortitude mods are useless--Christmas sig.jpg talk  20:24, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Can you not read, Relyk? There is exactly one skill in the optionals and variants that is affected by an enchanting mod, and that's Fox's Promise. CA doesn't get extended except for the first cast. Stop being retarded or I'll get you banned for 1RV. -- Jai . -  20:26, December 29 2010 (UTC)
 * Use a defense mod, it actually does something. Also, don't threaten to get someone banned Jai. Your input doesn't affect those decisions. Toraen   talk  21:32, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Enchanting mod does affect CA on renewal. It's the same with Critical Defenses. Can we please test these claims before taking it as fact? 71.167.195.28 13:32, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
 * PvX does not require, support, encourage, or conduct any sort of testing. You can make up whatever you want and it's okay. It's PvX. Cuilan 19:10, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
 * We encourages knowing game mechanics though if you aren't going to test builds yourself. Regardless, Enchanting weapons still aren't that useful over Defense/Fortitude. --  Toraen   talk  22:42, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Variants
"Seems odd to have conjure but not strength of honor and splinter weapon." - me adding them in "Because you put that on heroes." - pirate removing them

I don't think you should just assume you'll always have both buffs coming from somewhere else, people still do full human PuGs (Zaishen dailies), that's part of what variants are for. Unless they wouldn't be worth bringing if not bringing them on another party member (certainly don't agree with that). Necromas 18:29, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
 * That's because you can bring sw on a sabway necro, sos rit, nuker, mm, panic mesmer, etc. You can bring soh on the sos rit, roj monk, or (wouldn't recomend) a n/mo. Bringing sw yourself on yourself is stupid when it's so easy to put on a hero, you have recast it constantly, it won't be high spec, and it splits your attributes. Same with soh, except it also sucks energy and ineffective at lower levels. So yes, they wouldn't be worth bringing. If you wanted more damage, you'd bring conjure anyways. It should be plainly obvious if you play melee in pve.-- Relyk  talk  18:44, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
 * SW is bad on an attacker, because you waste so much time on casting. Also, players can run with SoH too. There's no reason you shouldn't already have SoH somewhere in your party, and putting it on yourself is bad because you're losing attribute points and energy management. If you really, really want to use an extra damage buff, then use conjure so that it'll stack with SoH. Even then, adding conjure means you're losing zealous daggers, you're not taking SY, and you're probably using it instead of your third PvE slot. IMO, I don't really think conjure's even worth it, but whatever floats your boat, and it's better than running SoH on the melee. -- Jai . -  20:15, January 23 2011 (UTC)

I've used this build for awhile, pretty much; I run Locust's Fury though as elite, was surprised not to see it under variants. 129.8.138.34 19:27, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Because LF is next to useless. Attack skills can't double strike, so it'll only affect your autoattacks, which should be few. --68.84.25.170

Still Viable?
With the change to Asuran Scan, is this still viable? --208.179.66.2 02:11, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Ascan prevents blind/block/miss being a problem. You think that stops it from being viable? Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 02:14, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
 * What other build would you run? Every decent sin bar for generic pve had AScan. AegisDok 02:38, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The build is fine. Cuilan 02:54, 18 February 2011 (UTC)


 * mainbar "I Am the Strongest!" or "Dodge This!" for some more dmg...still not even as great as Asuran Scan...Illoyon 13:56, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Erf Shakur???
[build prof=Assassin/Warrior DaggerMastery=11+1+1 CriticalStrikes=12+1 HammerMastery=6][Jagged Strike][Fox Fangs][Death Blossom][Earth Shaker]["Save Yourselves!"][Ebon Battle Standard of Honor][Critical Eye][Critical Agility][/build]

Yeti Smash is also a possibility (if your team brings conditions or you do), but "SY!" would be difficult to use with it. "FGJ!" might be worth considering, too. St. Michael 17:25, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Earth shaker is a hammer attack and switching weapons would just be a bad idea--99.229.227.232 23:33, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * It can be useful for damage mitigation and snaring. I've used this when Physwaying Veil HM, to prevent lifesteal spikes so often. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 00:07, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * 2sec KD's kinda suck. Just bring a warrior if you want Earthshaker, or just realize that SY is enough for about 90% of areas. -- Jai . -  04:08, February 24 2011 (UTC)
 * Not when it's every 5 seconds-- Relyk  talk  05:46, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Realise you won't use this for 90% of the areas, but it optional for areas that ignore armour and protection spells. AKA Veil. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 09:07, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * you'd probably use it in slavers too-- Relyk  talk  09:11, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Then just bring an earthshaker war. Or if nothing else, then drop SY too. There's no point in bringing both. There's also no point in adding ES when you'd only want to use it in a tiny number of areas, most of which already require a coordinated group anyway (which means that they could bring an ES...). -- Jai . -  15:38, February 24 2011 (UTC)
 * hurp, im talking about h/h with a sin, what are you going on about?-- Relyk  talk  21:27, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * and if you want to use Dev Hammer in RA take a warrior noobs. sense logic perefct make Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 22:34, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Fox's Promise
I'd rather have FP + Brawling Headbutt than AScan + FB/WotA. There are a lot more good PvE skills here than there are elites, so using a pve slot for something that you could have done with you elite probably isn't the best option. It's also less energy, and doesn't make you wait .75s between monsters. -- Jai . -  15:46, February 24 2011 (UTC)
 * 1. Ascan is much more powerful than FP, and AS is bugged in so much as it mimics FP. FP is a bad elite because it is situational. I'd rather use an elite I can use all the time. Ascan is an "as and when you need it" skill slot. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 16:12, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Again, AScan takes up a PvE slot. That alone makes taking FP more desirable if given the option (which means areas that only have block, with no blind). Both are used in conditional situations, and each have pros and cons. -- Jai . -  17:21, February 24 2011 (UTC)
 * Disagree. Ascan is better than FP in every way, since it leaves the elite slot free for something else, it ensures hits through block AND blind, and removes DP which FP doesnt. Yes, its a pve skill, but this build hardly calls for 3 other pve skills that you Absolutely Can't Do Without. Fully agree with Minion on this one, youd have to be fairly stupid to run FP over Ascan, even at 0 asuran rank. Potatosoup  / talk 18:06, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * CA, SY, BH, EBSoH, and even "DT!" All of those are worth taking at this point. The only halfway decent elite is Flashing Blades, and it's a conditional self-defense skill anyway. I'm not saying FP is better than AScan, but the slot it's taking up is also less valuable than the one AScan is taking. -- Jai . -  18:19, February 24 2011 (UTC)
 * If, like me, you faceroll your keyboard to kill stuff with this build - you often get the occasional quick attack sneaking in before the lead, which would end fox's promise. Also if you take Fox, you don't have asuran scan, i.e. you get raped by blind or miss hexes. -- [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px]] <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  18:33, 24 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Critical Agility is a terrible IAS, people need to run Frenzy or WotA if they want IAS. SY is good. BH= By Ural's? Sure, if you want AoE vengeance. Ebsoh is OK but is better on a caster (Don't like melee to cast when they can be attacking). Dodge This and IATS are the only other competitors I see. In such circumstances where I would require block/miss denial I would swap IATS or SY (depending on my current team build and blanket of protection). FP is meh elite, WotA is gg, Flashing Blades is loltank skill.  Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 18:36, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * What the fuck are you smoking? CA is the only IAS worth running on a sin. WotA is like a 15% IAS, and Frenzy means you have to perma-prot yourself as well as spend lots of energy keeping it up. Plus, CA makes you not a squishy, instead of turning you into a 30AL like Frenzy does. BH = Brawling Headbutt. IAtS is terrible, dude. It's like 50 damage every 20 seconds, 100 if you pre-used it. FP is conditional and semi-meh, WotA is very meh, and Flashing Blades is loltank when you don't need it.
 * Minion, you're as terrible as ever... -- Jai . -  05:49, February 25 2011 (UTC)
 * I assure you frenzy is perfectly viable option that works very well.-- Relyk  talk  06:42, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Brawling Headbutt is a waste of a PvE skill when you can just kill faster. If you need interrupts you can take Warmonger's Weapon on a rit hero, or a mes with a plethora of interrupts, even PI. WotA is fast enough when you're using 1/2 attack skills, and when you use an EoC, bumps you to 33% IAS. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 07:31, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Are you retarded or incredibly dumb? brawling headbutt is one of the best skills you can bring. also gg popping an essence just to use wota instead of ca-- Relyk  talk  08:39, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I pop essences to use ER most of the time. I am never left short-changed so it doesn't matter. You can KD more often if you take GDW and spam it on melee hench or players if you're pugging. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 08:50, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
 * That's irrelevant to this discussion-- Relyk  talk  09:20, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
 * You've seen the sinway KathSC with GDW spamming sins? Well, it works anywhere. And even one copy of GDW is better than one copy of Headbutt. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 10:02, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
 * You're comparing the effectiveness another player using GDW on you in a team build to the effectiveness of Brawling Headbutt on an individual build, your argument is irrelevant-- Relyk  talk  00:27, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
 * How is it irrelevant? Let's compare the two skills:
 * *GDW- 20s duration, 5s recharge, 10e. So you can maintain this on three players in your team, without waiting to build adrenaline. 40% chance for each weapon to strike a knockdown.
 * *Brawling Headbutt- 7 adren, instant knockdown (more or less) Certainly not possible to knocklock anything with this skill alone.
 * Even if you cast GDW on casters, three wands autoattacking will KD more often. Not irrelevant. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 01:25, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
 * You wouldn't kill anything if you did that-- Relyk  talk  03:40, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Just FYI: Moebius Strike, used during one of your autoattacks between chains, will do a lot more damage and be more useful in general than WotA. It also gives you the chance of immediately recharging Fox Fangs, making your chain have zero downtime (JS>FF>MS>DB>JS>FF>MS etc.). If you're going for damage, Moebius would be a far better option than WotA, with attack speeds of more than 2 attacks per second as compared to 1.6666... attacks per second of WotA. In other words, WotA is pretty much inferior in every way.

Also, Brawling Headbutt is better than GDW in the vast majority of PvE situations, because the vast majority of groups are H/H nowadays, which means GDW is inherently useless. In physway, sure, GDW is pretty decent, but physway is obviously a coordinated group, and isn't even the optimal build for anything. Also, BH is an on-demand KD, and will be charged about every 4 seconds or so (it will charge in a single chain if you double strike on one of the two autoattacks). It's not a knocklock, but it's moderately close. If you run Dark Fury, though, it's a KD around every 3 seconds, which is honestly going to be more reliable than GDW in that aspect. So even barring the fact that GDW is only usable in player groups, your arguments don't really hold up. -- Jai . -  07:59, February 27 2011 (UTC)
 * Mobius Strike I agree with, Fox's Promise not so much. I was simply trying to show the fact that Brawling is weaker both defensively and offensively on the sin. The sin which already has 3 spammable attacks. You don't take BH for the same reason you don't take Sneak Attack. Hell, might aswell take Exhausting Assault... Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 17:01, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
 * So it's bad to have more spammable attacks?-- Relyk  talk  23:11, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Well you have the potential to deal more damage auto-attacking or using Jagged Strike twice rather than using BH. So yes, it's bad. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 00:35, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

IMS
[build prof=Assassin/Paragon any Dagger=12+1+1 Critical=9+1 Command=9][Jagged Strike][Fox Fangs][Death Blossom]["Incoming!"]["Fall Back!"][critical eye][critical agility][optional][/build]

Because PvE is large.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  15:39, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I like this build.--99.234.253.59 00:37, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

What about Way of the Empty Palm? Drop Crit to 11 and make Deadly 6 for maintainable. I know energy is already loleasy because crits everywhere, but with WotEP it would be easier to take a skill like YMLaD or FH!. 72.78.161.223 23:12, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Because you could take other elites that are less bad. If, by some miracle, you actually DO run low on energy, just run WotA as your elite.  Gives more than enough crits to cover energy, boosts damage, and gives IAS if CA is removed.  For the record, Charge is another good elite if you feel like being /W and having 2 optional skills.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  00:22, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Or you could just run FB on one or two of your heroes. -- Jai . -  18:22, May 18 2011 (UTC)
 * That's always an option, but since none of the Assassin elites add significantly to this build's effectiveness, why not just bring the IMS, and free up secondaries and attribute points for heroes?  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  19:56, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Because you're lowering your own attributes in the process, and a melee should be focusing on damage, not being a poro. -- Jai . -  20:02, May 18 2011 (UTC)
 * You lower your critical hit chance by 5%. Critical hits add damage based off of weapon base damage.  You're using daggers.  Not exactly a huge loss of damage for 33% partywide IMS.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  20:18, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd be more concerned about the energy. Changing it from 2 energy to hit and an x% chance of gaining 3 energy to gaining 2 energy per hit and an x-5% chance of gaining 2 energy is like 20% loss of energy gained from attacks. Plus it'd be "slightly" harder to maintain critical agility and you're losing out on SY which I personally believe is better than party-wide IMS. [[Image:AsuraSignature.jpg|15px]] Anvil   God  20:22, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I've run this for a while, and haven't had energy problems. Also, the crit bonus is from +4 to +3, because of Critical Eye, so a bit less of a difference.  It is a bit harder to maintain Critical Agility between fights, but that's not really a big problem.  As to SY!-there's about 3 places in the game where you actually need it, and I already mentioned that if going /W, Charge is a good option for an elite.  You don't need IMS everywhere, but that build really is great for vanquishes and larger missions.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  20:33, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I stated it was an energy drop from 4 to 3 energy. [[Image:AsuraSignature.jpg|15px]] Anvil   God  20:39, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh, I misread. Either way, I'd recommend trying it for yourself.  It works great.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  20:53, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Flashing Blades
I removed it because it isn't that great for damage or defensive purposes. Cuilan 04:50, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Good man. Bad tanking skill for Defy Pain assassins. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 05:52, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
 * All the elites are bad, might as well let people choose which one they think is the least crappy. Also, there's like 0 actual situations where you'd use GFS instead of FF, and at that point, you'd probably be better off going with Moebius. -- Jai . -  12:05, September 6 2011 (UTC)
 * Vorpal, you have any thoughts? You're the one to re-added it. Cuilan 16:32, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Well Jai and I both re-added it if I'm correct. It's basically as he says though, sin elites aren't great. Moebius is decent, but you probably won't use it much. WotA's ISA doesn't stack with CA, the increase crit chance is nice though but since you're attacking at such a high speed, not that significant. FB offers some more defense for your fragile sin in the form of blocking, which could come at handy, but it ain't that great either. As Jai said, let people chose the least crappy one. <font color="Black">Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 16:50, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
 * One a side note, if you guys really insist on removing it from the article for some reason, go ahead I won't stop you. Since it's arguably the least important skill on PvX to make a fuzz about. I just thought that it at least deserves to be listed. <font color="Black">Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 17:05, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Whirlwind Attack
For moar AoE? Just putting my thought out there. 76.88.127.158 00:23, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Added. -- Jai . -  00:36, September 26 2011 (UTC)

Why Deep Wound is bad
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5608719&postcount=6 ~  Ӎiñon  21:42, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Conclusion on Excluded's talk seems to be to keep GFS since it's at least comparable to Exhausting Assault, but Demonic Flesh is awful and should go we're still talking about Demonic Flesh apparently. --  Toraen   talk  00:34, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Quickly tested; R is talking bollocks, tbh. 8 Critical Strikes makes Critical Eye not even maintainable and you're riding the blue bar even when it's up. I didn't even spam any 10 skills. If you can't spam those three skills, you're not doing your job. splitting attributes greatly doesn't work. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 03:31, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Elites
seriously no one uses Moebius Strike, Shattering Assault, Assault Enchantments and Battle Rage (as they are all medicore)...Way of the Assassin is the way to go and probably Flashing Blades in some situations. My suggestion would be to entirely remove all that useless stuff, make WotA mainbar and put FB in variants only. Or atleast put MB, SA, AE, BR and FB in Variants with WotA mainbar. Illoyon 19:46, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
 * You're wrong. People do use Moebius. Flashing Blades is pretty shitty in comparison to either Moebius or WotA, and the other options are vastly more average in comparison, but I can't justify removing them completely. People like Flashing Blades in PUGs because they can't depend on their monk's ability, or they Kilroy too often. Mainbarring an elite is pointless since all you need for the build to work are 3 dagger attacks. ~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs 21:26, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Way of the Assassin is shit as far as I care, criticals slightly more often is pointless. It's the most popular choice however. Flashing Blades is awesome, permanent 75% block is great utility. I took the time to explain why brage is good on the actual page too... SA has the niche usage appeal for it.-- Relyk 21:48, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

I like assault enchantments, especially in high-end HM areas.--TahiriVeila 10:01, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Ether Prism for optional
So, I was skillcapping, and I came across Ether Prism, decided to let it stick around a bit (it's not like WotA is that necessary, and with a ST rit and a Ineptitude mesmer around FB is useless) and I've found it to work wonders; it allows assassins to tank enormous spikes without any (noticeable) effectivity loss; it's awesome when pulling big mobs out of your healer's range, and when accidentally overaggroing, you can actually tank the hits and kill half of the enemies (thinking in terms of Raptors. or any mobbing group when taking a shadowstep) in that 3s timespan. Looking forward to see what you guys think 83.82.86.117 07:51, 3 May 2012 (UTC) (= Deadfalk)
 * nope-- Relyk 08:25, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Mind to explain? <font face="Broadway" color="#663854">Deadfalk Deadfalksig.jpg 08:55, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Overkill on defense--129.82.120.57 13:45, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
 * That makes sense, and for a player that knows even the most ridiculously basic pulling skills Prism is far from necessary, but for total (tactical) amateurs it's a godsend to have a panic button like this. <font face="Broadway" color="#663854">Deadfalk Deadfalksig.jpg 16:42, 3 May 2012 (UTC) (P.S. I regard this is a end of the discussion; consider the point dropped ^_^)
 * So I should run EP on my assassin (Which I dont have), since I have no idea on how to pull and whenever I play PvE I always die because of bad pulls. Ty for the tip. Silent   ( Chonsy )  18:38, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Let's add Barrage to it....
...while were at it. Cuilan 17:42, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Does barrage shutdown entire mobs? urbad. [[Image:They.jpg|36px|link=User:They]] 19:48, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
 * well...there IS a 1s downtime before FF where you could put your magic into. usually i just hit an extra Jagged but i've discovered Yeti is so much cooler &#9823;Fianchetto [[Image:Mending.jpg|19px|link=User_talk:Fianchetto]] 20:44, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Urf shakur. [[Image:They.jpg|36px|link=User:They]] 20:47, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
 * While I agree erfshakr is ok, yeti is terrible. <font face="Constantia" color=#D2691E>Cɥıǝɟʇɐıu Alǝx  23:53, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Just noting as per my comment on the Admin Noticeboard that you guys need to reach consensus on this rather than reverting backwards and forwards and arguing in edit summaries. At the moment this is schizophrenic as hell. Rask originally added both, then reverted someone else removing one of them. Sense make much yes do shall! A new misery 08:44, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

IAS
Why would you main bar Critical Agility if all your attacks are 1/4 or shouts? Is that not a waste of a PvE skill? Doubles420 (talk) 06:11, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Because you get more autoattacks which makes damage buffs more effective (we're assuming you're bringing SoH and crap) and fuels adrenaline for SY and Brawling Headbutt, and it gives you some extra armor too. In general it's the most effective option for your PvE skills, which is why it's mainbar, but there are variants for a reason. --<font color=6C87A3>jī·gō·dǔ -  20:15, 6 May 2013 (UTC)