Archive talk:Me/any Lyssa's Degenerator

Well please discuss. I have been playing this build some time now and had good success with it. Any comments except "inferior to WoH" are welcome. Looks like Breitschleif 07:09, 8 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Moved to Testing. The new buff of Lyssa´s Aura makes energy management a complete joke now^^ Looks like Breitschleif 06:00, 10 October 2008 (EDT)


 * I had this exact same idea pretty much when i saw the change.-- Ikimono I'm Sober. What's your excuse? [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 07:50, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

or would be nice.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ  07:55, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

You might be able to ditch phantasm for clumsiness for damage actually. Not sure mantra is very important either tbh, since you're spamming nightmare on recharge anyway. - Auron 08:04, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * 15 second elord is nice though.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 08:20, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * /agree to Auron, i wrote it down in Variants. I tried different skill combinations by switching out the Mantra and/or EL, you can more or less take whatever you want to but the build i posted here was the combination i had most success/fun with. Distortion is really cool with Lyssa, too, you can use it more or less anytime you are under melee pressure. Do you guys think i can add an AB-tag perhaps?

@Rickyvantof: Elord is not affected by the mantra... unfortunately ;(Looks like Breitschleif 08:24, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Oh okay.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 08:26, 10 October 2008 (EDT)


 * Soothing Images would be pretty cool, too, would last like nearly 30 seconds... Looks like Breitschleif 08:28, 10 October 2008 (EDT)


 * Wouldn't it be good if you used Diversion and Shame instead of the two degen skill and Signet of Humility instead of the Mantra? --Melvelet 15:47, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Your missing the purpose of this build. You can spread 10 degen to every opponent with no energy problems while also denying energy ro vital characters (monks). Since hexes are so gay to remove you can pretty much pressure the shit outta the other team. -- Frosty [[Image:Mini england.jpg|19px]] 15:49, 10 October 2008 (EDT)

I haven't gotten a chance to play it yet so I may have more feedback in a bit, but there's a lot of overkill in this build. As has already been noted, Conjure Phantasm when stacked with Conjure Nightmare is only yielding 2 pips of degen from Conjure Phantasm unless they're already regenning -- which isn't very common from most of the dangerous enemies. If you do need to stack it up, it's most likely an enemy ranger with Unguent (Monks with Breeze are almost never good at staying alive), and I'd look at Shrinking Armor instead of Conjure Phantasm to weaken them for your allies with the cracked armor on ending. Also, for the 10 seconds of every 20 you can keep Ether Lord up you're at 12 energy regen. This is perfect for bringing a +energy set that you switch to every time after you cast it -- you'll get an extra 30 energy to play with and still be capped on energy regen. Switch back if you get Lyssa's stripped or on the end of Ether Lord. Other than that, I think having a Deep Wound available for pushing people over the edge right before a Word can heal them from the degen that's been going on the whole fight might be a nice touch, I'd trade 5 energy lost from Ether Phantom for this and just drain Cracked Armor when needed (Enemy monks will take that 5 energy to repair the deep wound, and if you kill someone instead it's even better). -Binary 13:52, 11 October 2008 (EDT)


 * Conjure Nightmare + Phantasm is 12 degen, it just caps at 10. So if they had Mending giving +3 regen, for example, they would suffer 9 degen. And it's very easy to throw across an entire team of 4 people. --[[Image:GoD_Hammer_and_Sickle.jpg|19px]]  Guild  of   Deals   13:53, 11 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Did you just seriously suggest someone is going to be running mending across their team in RA and still be a threatening team that it matters to have overcapped degen against? Just so you know, Conjure Phantasm + Conjure Nightmare is 13 degen. -Binary 14:28, 11 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Yes and it is capped to 10, but spreading 10 degen around a team ? just 8 or 5, you have the energy to so why not? -- Frosty [[Image:Mini england.jpg|19px]] 14:37, 11 October 2008 (EDT)
 * I already explained why I was recommending swapping skills when I suggested the change, if you want me to go more in depth I need to know what part of the explanation you're not understanding. "So what?" tells me nothing. Did I even mention energy costs of the Conjures?  I have no idea what you're arguing against but it sure doesn't look like my post. -Binary 14:41, 11 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Another thing, having two of them allows you to stick one on nearly every member of the enemy party, as opposed to having a 5s interval between each one, adds a shitload of pressure.   - [[Image:Tai_MS.jpg|19px]] STAR OF  EXILE  14:46, 11 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Then it's not 10 degen on every opponent, is it? Please tell me which the build actually does. -Binary 14:53, 11 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Both. A build can do more than one thing.   - [[Image:Tai_MS.jpg|19px]] STAR OF  EXILE  14:56, 11 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Actually, 10 degen on the enemy team is outright impossible. Here's part of why: Conjure Nightmare and Phantasm are both 5 recharge.  At best, you're getting it on the enemies with 2 seconds downtime and it's barely maintained on the fourth enemy.  Realistically, you can do it on 3.  But, that being said, the build doesn't have enough emanagement for it.  I'll post why in a new paragraph. -Binary 15:15, 11 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Your build says: "Now begin spamming Conjure Nightmare and Conjure Phantasm all over the enemy team. Due to the Mantra, they will last 18 seconds, pressuring the enemy healer with -10 life degeneration on his team mates." This won't work for long.  Here are the energy costs/gains of the build over 1 minute:
 * 5 energy every 30 seconds = 2 reapplies = -10 energy (Lyssa's)
 * 5 energy every 20 seconds = 3 reapplies = -15 energy (Ether Lord)
 * 100 energy every 18 seconds = 3 reapplies = -300 energy (Both Conjures on 4 people)
 * 15 energy every 15 seconds = 4 reapplies = -60 energy (Mantra)
 * +10 energy every 12 seconds = 5 reapplies = +60 energy (Drain Delusions net gain)
 * 9 energy regen for 30 seconds = 3 energy per second * 30 = 90 energy (Lyssa's regen)
 * 10 energy regen for 30 seconds = 3.3 energy per second * 30 = 98 energy (Lyssa's + Ether regen)
 * Net: -10 - 15 - 300 - 60 + 60 + 90 + 98 = -137 net energy per minute (-62 if you only maintain conjures on three)
 * This gives you the ability to apply both Conjures to all 4 enemies, realistically their recharges prohibit it. Even if you're not maintaining them on all 4 people, you end up with 75 energy * 3 = 225 and are still at net -62 energy.  The build just can't support it, and that gets worse if you lose *any* energy when you cast Ether Lord.  Yes, it's good degen.  But saying 10 degen to the entire enemy team is exaggerating. This is part of why I suggested Conjure Phantasm -> Cracked Armor and Ether Phantom -> Phantom Pain/Accumulated Pain, this helps lower its overall energy costs and keeps it pressure-focused still without greatly impacting the degen, because at that full degen application you're running out of energy anyway. -Binary 15:15, 11 October 2008 (EDT)
 * He means one or the other, not both on everyone. Also I changed the message about you gaining 20 energy from the drain delusions and ether phantom to 10, because you math is off. It costs 5 energy for Ether phantom and 5 for drain, and you gain 20. so 20-5-5=10, not 20. J  ustin  6  [[image:Justing6_siggypic.png|19px]] 16:20, 11 October 2008 (EDT)
 * The statement I was objecting to was "spreading 10 degen to the enemy team". This makes it sound like you're applying 10 to everyone, but the build can't maintain even close to that degen on most of the enemy team without very rapidly running out of energy.  While you say "you(r) math is off" I assume you mean for the build author even though you're posting a reply to my comment.  Really though, for yourself Ether Lord is pretty poor energy return because Lyssa's already drives you up near the regen cap and even weapon switching is only unhiding energy and not actually giving you any new reserves.  It actually is resulting in even more drain on the build rather than helping its energy issues.  I like it for the reduced regen e-denial, but for e-gain it's poor. -Binary 16:33, 11 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Tbh when I run this I drop Phantasm for an illusion snare. -- Frosty [[Image:Mini england.jpg|19px]] 16:34, 11 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Yes, Phantasm only adds 2 more degen, which is negligible. [[Image:mightymouse.gif|25px]] moush 19:31, 11 October 2008 (EDT)
 * 25 second gw:Imagined Burden sounds nice... - [[Image:GenericWikier1.jpg|19px]] <font face="Courier New" size="2" color="black">Generic Wiki-er  20:40, 11 October 2008 (EDT)
 * So you were disagreeing with me about dropping Phantasm for not being worth enough when stacked with Nightmare earlier just on principle? -Binary 22:04, 11 October 2008 (EDT) (Moved for clarity of who the previous response was meant to follow)

The Regenerator
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOLOLOLOLOOLOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL Life Guardian 20:49, 11 October 2008 (EDT)
 * LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOLOLOLOLOOLOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL-- Shadow [[Image:Relyk Sig.gif]] 02:37, 12 October 2008 (EDT)
 * LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOLOLOLOLOOLOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL Zyke 02:40, 12 October 2008 (EDT)
 * LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOLOLOLOLOOLOOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL undefined -- The preceding srsly srs comment was added by Itokaru   04:26, 12 October 2008 (EDT)

xDDD lolled -- Wuhy 02:50, 12 October 2008 (EDT)
 * i like lyssas degerataion better :( [[Image:That Twin Tom sig.jpg|19px]] That  Twin   Tom  04:55, 12 October 2008 (EDT)
 * This is much better because it reminds of of FireTock. -- The preceding srsly srs comment was added by Itokaru   05:01, 12 October 2008 (EDT)

I have been playing the build all day long now and it is simply too funny^^ lots of hate, flames and loathing in the arenas especially from the monks^^ i play it with soothing images most of the time but varies pretty much, imagined burden and shrinking armor are nice, too <font color="Green">Looks like Breitschleif 19:00, 20 October 2008 (EDT)
 * I get more hate from warriors honestly...Comments like the soothing images should be banned and such. :P --Link4all 21:09, 14 January 2009 (EST)

Hey
why wasnt i told of this?--‎<font color="Darkgreen">W<tt>i</tt>n  <font color="Lightgreen">T<tt>o</tt>c<tt>k</tt>  Rules! 21:24, 20 November 2008 (EST)
 * ill make a story.--[[image:Green thumbs up.png|19x19px]]‎<font color="Darkgreen">W<tt>i</tt>n  <font color="Lightgreen">T<tt>o</tt>c<tt>k</tt>  Rules! 21:24, 20 November 2008 (EST)
 * You weren't told because it was made while you were taking a break from pvx lol. It's pretty epic. I think you should get credit for this build haha. You made a GREAT build!  Life [[Image:Aura of Faith.jpg|19px]] 22:42, 20 November 2008 (EST)
 * Because when i added the counter of the regenerator i forgot to credit u :( [[Image:Muffin.jpg|19px]]<font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  23:49, 24 November 2008 (EST)
 * needs moar vengence [[Image:OmNomNomNom_sig.jpg|19px]] Oɱɳoɱɳoɱɳoɱ ( nom )( nom )  00:38, 25 November 2008 (EST)

Ups havent looked up on this for some times... thx for credits^^ <font color="Darkblue">Looks like Breitschleif  11:18, 3 December 2008 (EST)

Ether Nightmare?
Haven't played Mes in a long time, but wouldn't it be a viable option for the optional slot?
 * For RA. --[[Image:GoD_Hammer_and_Sickle.jpg|19px]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps;font-family:Verdana;border-style:solid;border-width:2px;border-color:red;background-color:gold;padding:0px 5px 1px 6px;"> Guild  of   Deals   07:13, 26 November 2008 (EST)
 * Ok cool ^^ Maybe add to optionals list? Sorry I forgot to sign before D: Awpaperwings 06:51, 29 November 2008 (EST)
 * What GoD means is that Ether Nightmare is a PvE-only skill, and this build is for RA. - [[Image:GenericWikier1.jpg|19px]] <font face="Courier New" size="2" color="black">Generic Wiki-er  18:09, 29 November 2008 (EST)
 * That's what he's suppose to mean-- Shadow Relyk [[Image:Relyk srs.gif|19px]] 02:54, 30 November 2008 (EST)

late
but "The Degenerator's arch rival, The Regenerator" made me almost believe in the goodness of pvx again Long   Cat  20:43, 3 December 2008 (EST)
 * Shiz, thaz a lotta E management! I love it! <font color="Gray">The [[Image:Immolate Invert.jpg|19px]] <font color="Blue">Wojo 12:27, 4 December 2008 (EST)

eh
Its definitely in the "great" category, but in RA this doesnt last long without a devoted healer. no distortion, illusion, or ether feast make it a glass cannon to be sure. If only it were possible for the evil of the Degenerator and the holiness of the Regenerator to end up on the same team in RA..(Kiron 14:17, 14 January 2009 (EST))
 * has roflsynergy tho(Kiron 14:26, 14 January 2009 (EST))
 * yea i agree, great build but i wouldnt run it in RA because, while u are pwning the casters and keep there energy low and yours high. you are vunerable to mellee and other casters. TA, i would run this, a VoR interrupter, monk and an assassin, would be fun.Mercon 12:06, 16 January 2009 (EST)
 * Its fine if you end up with a good monk, but how often does that happen? not often enough for this build to be worth the frustration tbh. (Kiron 18:30, 16 January 2009 (EST))

12 pips holy fuck
I bet that looks pretty amazing on the energy bar... 21:23, 14 January 2009 (EST)
 * capped at 10 [[Image:Frostrage.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> po!  15:04, 15 January 2009 (EST)
 * Even for energy? kk.  15:11, 15 January 2009 (EST)
 * ym caps at 10. --<font color="Purple">Ojamo  <font color="Green">(>.<( O=(- -Q)  15:11, 15 January 2009 (EST)

Soul Barbs
Soul Barbs would be great for more damage without degen
 * it barely add any damage, has an ugly recharge, nad requires another att spec. in short, no. --<font color="Purple">Ojamo  <font color="Green">(>.<( O=(- -Q)  15:02, 15 January 2009 (EST)
 * If you spammed away p-bond, dd, ww, and other crap it would be fun--<font color=#585858>Relyk <font color=#66CCFF>_||_ <font color=#333300> I hammers u! 16:37, 17 January 2009 (EST)
 * soul barbs only triggers on new hexes, reapplying them does nothing --<font color="Purple">Ojamo  <font color="Green">(>.<( O=(- -Q)  16:49, 17 January 2009 (EST)
 * For 30 seconds, target foe takes 15...27 damage when an enchantment or hex is cast on that target. Ojamo the Dumb [[Image:Frostrage.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> po!  16:52, 17 January 2009 (EST)
 * I've tried this before, it doesnt proc on reapply --<font color="Purple">Ojamo  <font color="Green">(>.<( O=(- -Q)  16:53, 17 January 2009 (EST)
 * k im wrong --<font color="Purple">Ojamo  <font color="Green">(>.<( O=(- -Q)  17:04, 17 January 2009 (EST)
 * Ojamo the Dumb [[Image:Frostrage.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> po!  17:05, 17 January 2009 (EST)
 * Frosty the Nig --<font color="Purple">Ojamo  <font color="Green">(>.<( O=(- -Q)  17:06, 17 January 2009 (EST)
 * Need RI for soul barb hex spam to be gud<font color="Teal">-WaffleZ LOL- 17:12, 17 January 2009 (EST)
 * They nerfed that, the original version and the broken one [[Image:Frostrage.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> po!  17:14, 17 January 2009 (EST)

xD
rofl i just had an idea, wat if someone to make a HA build using 2-3 degenerators (not me b/c i dont do HA that much) just a random thought bc it would be insane pressure for the monks


 * 1 taint, possibly wif toxicity and/or LC does about the same thing better. -- -Ch ao  s-  [[Image:TheDentist.jpg|19px]] 06:32, 21 January 2009 (EST)

wth
the degenerator was a way better name D: -- <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">17:59, 16 February 2009 


 * And was more descriptive of what the build does.-- &mdash;The preceding trolling attempt was made by Chaos (talk) . 18:01, 16 February 2009 (EST)
 * I totally agree. Zyke 19:21, 16 February 2009 (EST)


 * who the hell changed the name? i will redo it, the one who did it should at least disscus this here on the talkpage... [[Image:Aclawwhichisformysignaturetomakemehappy.jpeg|19px]] <font color="Darkblue">Looks like Breitschleif 19:28, 16 February 2009 (EST)
 * This name is fine. Page history, dude.. -- &mdash;The preceding trolling attempt was made by Chaos (talk) . 19:30, 16 February 2009 (EST)


 * i somehow dont get it how to change the name again... please someone else do it [[Image:Aclawwhichisformysignaturetomakemehappy.jpeg|19px]] <font color="Darkblue">Looks like Breitschleif 19:36, 16 February 2009 (EST)


 * Considering it was the only remotely common mesmer utilising LA, the name was fine. ~ [[Image:Tycncookiesig.jpg|19px]]  Tycn  19:41, 16 February 2009 (EST)
 * The name didn't indicate if it's a domination, illusion, inspi or maybe curses mesmer, which kinda annoyed me. -- &mdash;The preceding trolling attempt was made by Chaos (talk) . 05:38, 17 February 2009 (EST)
 * you can degenerate stuff with dom, insp, or curses?--Relyk 05:40, 17 February 2009 (EST)
 * Brave curses mesmer which is Me/any ;o [[Image:Frostrage.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> po!  06:03, 17 February 2009 (EST)
 * arcane mimicry tbh--Relyk 06:08, 17 February 2009 (EST)
 * Lol.. I failed. Neways, I moved it to this from "Lyssa's Aura Mesmer". -- &mdash;The preceding trolling attempt was made by Chaos (talk) . 06:08, 17 February 2009 (EST)

that name is okay :) <font color="Darkblue">Looks like Breitschleif  12:55, 17 February 2009 (EST)

THIS IS A FILLER DISCUSSION TO SATISFY GUILD OF DEALS WHO WAS QQING ABOUT A BAD BAR MADE BETTER
Discuss. Or not, since GW is a dead game.220.255.7.201 12:25, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Guild Wars is a new and exciting game that Guild of Deals doesn't even play. - [[Image:Panic_sig7.gif‎]] 12:26, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Now that someone has responded to this call for discussion, it has qualified to be a discussion and hence the edit should stay. 220.255.7.204 12:29, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Satchel bomb. - [[Image:Panic_sig7.gif‎]] 12:40, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * hookshot is superior - Auron 13:00, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * fairy in a bottle. - [[Image:Panic_sig7.gif‎]] 13:06, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Crackz deez nuts in joor fayce. --BlazingBurdy 13:16, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

PnH nerf makes my pants go uh-uh
Random Arenas, the hexstacks are back to get ya turds <font color="Darkblue">Looks like Breitschleif  00:35, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Build in wrong section
Why is it "Great" if it got "Good" rating
 * Ty random person
 * This should be in great. Doesn't have the shutdown of VoR but has teamwide degen.And can pressure monks even through veil.Howlinghobo 12:27, September 3, 2009 (UTC)

Illusion of Pain imo. -- <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Frosty  <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Mc Admin  13:28, September 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * :> Then I just come to think of merging it with the Ineptitude one. Huge bar differences though. -- -Ch  ao  s-   13:30, September 3, 2009 (UTC)

Unarchived
Since would rather do this than rewrite it from. --  Toraen   talk  22:11, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Updated
This kind of mes is seeing some play in HA/GvG so I thought I would update this rather than make a new build based on the same principle. <font color="Black">Frostels 18:09, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

IoP Change
Not sure how much of an effect IoP had on this build, if anything the build needs updating. Dacookiemaster 22:42, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
 * how about dropign auspisious and adding back in the old ether phantom -> drain delusions combo? 98.134.216.97 01:21, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
 * yeah, at least replace IoP and revote before (possible) archiving &#9823;Fianchetto [[Image:Mending.jpg|19px|link=User_talk:Fianchetto]] 02:28, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

I think you would be better off just dropping IoP for something like signet of clumsiness/Soothing Images/one of the illusion snares. You can take Ether phantom/drain over auspicious/iop as well. <font color="Black">Frostels 11:48, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I think we need to do a revote since the change. Dacookiemaster 15:27, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Now it is horrible. The real fulcrum of this build was IoP. Now its like an ele with only utility skills. <font color="DarkGreen">Chonsy <font color="DarkGreen">Rulez  18:13, 4 April 2012 (UTC)