User:Malokai92/Wiki Drama/A/W Locust Trigger

[build prof=A/W Dagger=12+1+1 Critical=11+2 Shadow=6][Deaths Charge][Dash][Optional][Optional][Distracting Blow][Critical Eye][Signet of Malice][Locust's Fury][/build]
 * Hero Build

Talk page starts below this line.

Fuck no. The hero will be spending more time spamming signets than it will be attacking. Also, melee heroes are bad because they have crappy AI, not just because they're terrible with dagger chains. -- Jai . -  11:17, September 26 2011 (UTC)
 * Read the usage before you make silly comments. AI isn't bad when you call; they train your target until it is dead then move on swiftly. If mobility is your issue, there is Death's Charge. Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 11:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Wasting a whole bar for primarily single-target damage is baed. If you want mark of pain triggers, then "spears work just as well as daggers" (a rough quote of what you said like 50 times on the caster daggers build). -- Jai . -  11:32, September 26 2011 (UTC)
 * I seem to recall aiina using two of these heroes when he pugged HM mallyx end fight. lol gdw. -- [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] Chieftain  Alex  17:08, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Even if you are gonna have a locust hero, A/W is not the way to go, it's all about A/R with beast mastery for IAS, pet, and pet attacks. Smity Smitington 18:41, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
 * We all know how effective pets are in PvE... Without any points in BM, they just get in the way, with the attack speed equal to a flat bow without IAS. Spears work, but this is designed to best abuse those buffs you have in your party for a physical. Best effects when using an N/A MoP or E/N MoP spammer. Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 20:35, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
 * AoD+sneak attack is better--Bluetapeboy 20:01, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I made a story just for you to explain why not ;) Shadow 20:03, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I just use R/Ps with spears and rampage as one when I want MoP triggers. The only downside is you can't do strength of honor + double striking, but too high single target damage is detrimental to the use of MoP, and when you do need to kill isolated targets things like barbs and necrosis are good enough. Necromas 21:26, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Either will work, however, there is dispute as to the effectiveness of a pet, and single-target damage is just as important as AoE. I would still bring Barbs while using this hero to see some lulzy numbers. Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 21:30, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Now let me be fair, I can take whatever hero I want and beat the shit out of PvE, can give it any build and done. I can go quad sin with 3 heroes included, all daggers, and go in and hit and hit and hit (yes, the AI is not that bad all the time). I can also be mister sneaky and go in and use sneak attack, but I'd rather drop the Fat Man. Now, about this build, almost anything just overrules anything in this build. I'm sorry for my language, it's time for a nap ;) Sh</FONT>a</FONT>d</FONT>o</FONT>w</FONT> 20:52, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
 * If the aim was to trigger all your physical-amplified hexes, SoH and weapon skills, this is the build you would use. Note the hero build which has an optional RoJ monk and Paragoon that was recently edited. This sin>Paragoon. I don't know how you can't see that. Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 21:03, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
 * For once, I think that we had enough melee with all tha minion masters around here =) S</FONT>h</FONT>a</FONT>d</FONT>o</FONT>w</FONT> 21:04, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
 * You cannot focus minions on one target. The assassin hero is not for bodyblocking but high passive DPS through enchants and hexes in the party. This is about as effective as a dervish or warrior with 0 party support (only this deals more damage) Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 21:09, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

This is great!!
 * You tildes are not though S</FONT>h</FONT>a</FONT>d</FONT>o</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff">w</FONT> 21:04, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Move this into testing at 5-5-x. now. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 21:16, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Ok! ive gone trough some serious testing on this (i went to the isle of nameless, as u would imagine); here are my findings: with a roj at 15 smite, this sin can produce something between 75-80 dps, with soh on; its usage of flurry is reasonable, but it takes sometimes a lot ot use, so ias is on 75% of time; it can get over 200 dmg in a single sec, wich i atribute to one hit with simb followed by double crit; ive tried running a reapiting strike sin, with wota and eye plus golden fang and an enchant, but they use it poorly, so the dmg is ridiculous, however, if both sins are compared without any soh or other buffs, the hero is smart enough to use repeating strike enough to match locust dmg rate; ive compared this simbolic build then on a avatar of grenth derv with holy fury heal sig, sig of stamina, sig of strengh rez sig and one derv sig, it produces 70-75 dps, and ive got a peak at 167 in a single sec, this one can only be a one time hit with simbolic, coz this derv cant double or attack faster than 1 sec; also, this derv uses his ias better, coz at 15 mist it lasts 10 secs, and that makes it go up 90% of the time; its ur choice now: u want a spiker with very deep strike, but single? or u prefer to see this aoe derv version? also i should add that a slightly less dpser version can be arranged, but with more prot for ur hero on the frontline, use armor of sanctity and sig of mistic speed, to make AoS instacast...all my maths can be confirmed at the master of dmg himself, just dont have jai doing it, he will take signets into account...  Geist tha burdill  Enormous 22:57, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Not sure why you're using Symbolic - if the point of the build is to trigger physical buffs as much as possible, you're actually preventing that by killing the target with fewer hits in the first place. (Read: the bar would be more effective with just Locust's and IAS. Also, lol melee heroes.) Symeon 23:06, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
 * @enormous; Flurry is 100% maintainable, from what I've seen, it has unlimited energy due to not using it for anything. @Symeon; melee heroes aren't as bad as I once thought, considering signet of malice removes blind also, and Symbolic adds it's own extra damage. @Smity; shall I stop taking your builds seriously? Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 23:10, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Smity, i just would like to let u know that i keep my trolling to the talk pages, not to build pages, to try and keep me as clean as possible, and to be as much civilized as a third world country guy can be, so i would like u to remove that copy paste from the build page... i wont do it, and i dont think its right to be there, so if u dont mind?!...  Geist tha burdill  Enormous 23:10, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

OMG! i was joking xcluded... but i did the test, its maintanable if ur hero wants to use it all times, with no interval, but in real fight they will use it more often.  Geist tha burdill  Enormous 23:14, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

thank u very much, smity!  Geist tha burdill  Enormous 23:19, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, I had a moment of weakness. Also, inb4 "you had a lifetime of weakness" or something to that extent.  And I wasn't making fun of your post really I just thought it would be funny on the build page.  Smity Smitington 23:20, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Also minion, I can respect the thought behind this build. I think it kind of sucks to have a bar with 4 skills disabled though :/, and I'm sure it works cus lolpve amirite? (insert picture "but it pwns ra") Smity Smitington 23:25, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

OK np dude!!  Geist tha burdill  Enormous 23:29, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, since the aim is to always be attacking, and you can't double-strike on attack skills, it limits what can go on the bar. Symbolic Strike recharges every 3-4 seconds and is a nice constant unconditional damage for melee. The only other skills that would be useful would be /P shouts, and you would struggle to fill that bar, considering GFtE is pointless with 13/14 Critical Strikes and 13/14 Dagger Mastery, unless you really care that your minions critical. Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 23:47, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
 * An A/P version might be more viable actually, although still probably will never make it here. I can think of a bunch of shouts to exploit. Smity Smitington 23:51, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
 * SYG, Fall Back, WSR and maybe GFtE. Other suggestions? Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 23:59, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
 * brace yourself, cant touch this, fallback, find their weakness, gtfo, never give up, never surrender, stand your ground, we shall return Smity Smitington 00:02, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Placed a /P variant on the page; energy should be fine with zealous daggers. Pick your own shouts. Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 00:21, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * P.S. Frustration and Wailing Weapon say hi. Much damage to be had.-- Ultimak719 LIKE A BOSS!  00:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * locust + frus + ww == epic trio! Smity Smitington 00:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

This will probably be trashed once it gets into testing, but nobody add a WELL tag for now unless you actually find a comparable build to WELL it with. Also, Excluded, you know better than to remove it yourself. --  Toraen   talk  00:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Fine, then let's throw this in testing and get it trashed already. Also, if you want me to write up a wall of text on exactly why this is bad and/or does not belong in the buildspace, I can have one for you by tomorrow around this time. -- Jai . -  01:05, September 27 2011 (UTC)
 * I propose something to the effect of this: http://www.gwpvx.com/User:Relyk/Guide_Index/prof Smity Smitington 01:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * No, if I'm gonna write an essay it's gonna have to be for humanities. :/ -- Jai . -  01:10, September 27 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't worry I'll grade it for you. Smity Smitington 01:13, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * You better fucking give me an A. -- Jai . -  01:15, September 27 2011 (UTC)
 * It works effectively in PvE with the use of other skills throughout the party and there is no hero counterpart to a sin. I want to hear your issues with the build, Jai. Clearly it's not ready for testing. Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 01:16, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * First off, the A/P build is far worse than pretty much any melee hero because it doesn't have any IAS outside of Locust's (which is less than a 33% IAS on its own). Second, just because it does damage doesn't mean anything. You should already have an overkill on damage with stuff Mistrust/Unnat Sig/ESurge/CoP/Clum/WE/Inep/Putrid Bile/RoJ/PoD, etc., all of which is AoE damage. Sure, you might be able to pump some good damage, but you're sacrificing utility and making your team far more fragile because you're putting someone on the frontline instead of everyone being midline, meaning much more susceptibility to overaggro. I could go on, but I really need to finish my lab report and crap. I'll write it out more tomorrow. -- Jai . -  01:38, September 27 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, you can blame Smity for A/P to keep people happy. Anyway, there is nothing wrong with one melee player if you already have complete shutdown with your mesmer midline, you might aswell throw extra damage out there for some single targets and better AoE damage when using MoP. I think you're playing too defensively; you don't even need Prot Spirit for this guy to survive, just to lure properly (has has been explained on every page where someone says frontline casters are bad and other silly circumstances.) You can better abuse weapons on the frontline, as has been argued alot with Splinter. There is a specific hate for sin heroes as they cannot chain attacks; this sin has no attacks to chain, so no problem there. There are, I'd like to point out, a considerable number of Dervish and Warrior hero bars, most of which are melee-range. Double standards appear everywhere on this wiki, but I'd like to know (with reasons I haven't already explained) why this is a bad hero bar? Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 01:53, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Compare this to a VoS derv hero. VoS has far more AoE damage (considering this has none), triggers MoP and Splinter better if there's 2+ foes (which, mind you, is the only time MoP or Splinter will be useful), has more health and armor (thank mysticism and dervs' extra 25hp). Of course, stuff like the Enduring Axe build really shouldn't have a hero version (and Earth Shaker requires a ton of micro), but unlike assassins there are a few missions that require warriors, and thus having at least one warrior hero build is preferable. There's absolutely no reason to run a sin hero, however.
 * Bottom line, though, is that in about 85% of situations a full caster hero team will be far more reliable and efficient (read: fast) than a team that has melee heroes in it, especially if the player is a caster. And if you're running this when you're already a melee, then there's really nothing I can do for you anymore. -- Jai . -  02:05, September 27 2011 (UTC)
 * read:AP-MoP. 100% of the time. Which alot of people, in fact, if they have any sense. I wouldn't compare this to a VoS hero; it's a dervish bar and meant for AoE specifically with low single-target damage. It's the opposite of this. Why don't we compare it to a discord hero or a perma SC team? If you thought this was supposed to be run with a melee player, there's really nothing I can do for you anymore. (see what i did there? really Jai...) Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 02:12, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * You're being contradictory. You're bringing up MoP/Splinter (and thus AoE) every other sentence, and yet you're bashing VoS because it's AoE damage is better than its single-target damage (which is still going to be around 50DPS against one foe, and exponentially higher with more foes). And if you're going for single-target damage, then you very well should run Discord, because the simple fact that this has to move between foes makes discord better for consistent damage. If you want AoE, then this is far from optimal. -- Jai . -  02:24, September 27 2011 (UTC)
 * Discord=30dps single-target; Locust's=80+ without mods. Hmm, yeah i think having to move to it's target might limit it's dps in total, but not below 30dps. I'm not being contradictory, I'm saying single-target DPS on one character is worthwhile, than everyone carrying nukes (see: mes midline). Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 03:01, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Locust's is about 30 DPS without mods... With SoH and such it's around 80 or so, yes. Also, who the fuck runs with just one copy of discord? If you're running with heroes, you'll have 3 copies, plus damage from other sources, not to mention AP>EVAS>FH which does about 300 damage on its own. Discord works because it spikes stuff down within about 3 seconds of targetting a foe. No Locust sin is ever going to be able to do that. Of course, we're basically arguing which is more shitty, when both really should never be run. The problem is that no one in hell runs something like this, but tons of scrubs (that is, average GW'ers) run DSM, which means we are storing DSM solely because it's used a lot, not because it's a build of merit, but this build is both crap and never used. -- Jai . -  03:19, September 27 2011 (UTC)
 * Thought I'd double check those numbers from enormous (not entirely reliable source) and with the common buffs (SoH, Barbs) Locust's is a solid 153 DPS. Funny how that outdoes three discord necs, yet this=trash. There's not a problem with a melee hero; you must be playing way too defensive. Leave some room for variation. Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 03:45, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * First off, barbs is not a common buff mostly because it's got a terrible cast time thus meaning that the target will be about half-dead before barbs gets onto it. Second, you said 80 DPS unbuffed, which is what I responded to, and it is about 30-40 DPS unbuffed. Third, you're assuming constant buff-maintainence, non-moving target, and no need for target-switching, all of which are highly unrealistic. In practice, your DPS would be very lucky to be half of that. Not to mention that having a DPS of 90 with a 1 second delay (Discord) is much more preferable than a DPS of 150 with a 3-5 second delay (LF, with time taken to switch targets and accounting for crappy melee AI). Also, do note that I strongly dislike DSM, and am only using it as a comparison to show that this build is inferior to an already-inferior build.

tl;dr caster damage >>>>>>>> melee damage when it comes to heroes. -- Jai . -  04:33, September 27 2011 (UTC)

Why the fuck isn't this page dead? I've been here since 2007 and I can't even count the number of Locust bars we've WELLed >.>--TahiriVeila 02:36, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * if you haven't noticed, the majority of good players have quit/given up leaving a bunch of shitters(just like gw). Did you not see how long SS daggers was here? smh.. Also, people think that every build is good cuz 7-hero steamrolls pve and barely anyone good plays pvp. Roland 03:17, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Fucking truth. -- Jai . -  03:19, September 27 2011 (UTC)
 * I resemble that remark! Smity Smitington 03:43, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Needed
Tbh whether it's this or one of smity's dealios as of late...pvx needs builds like these just for the activity they spur. W/o them what would ya'll/we do? Admit it or not ya'll know u love to hate them.--E.Snow 04:21, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd rather just see this shithole die already. :/ -- Jai . -  04:25, September 27 2011 (UTC)

@minion: my numbers are accurate, last night a friend got me a very good batch of weed, the end result was that research uve seen on my comment, only under the influence i could ever do something like that, but i can assure you that i really used that in isle of nameless; the 153 dps u found is twice of mine, and i had strenght of honor on all tested versions, so how the fuck u get that number?? barbs will add at the most 30 dps, assuming a hit rate of 2 per second, u will still need to find around 40 dps coming from other buffs, not saying its impossible, but ull need a lot of support heros to fullfill that; locust fury and simbolic gives ur hero ~45 dps without buffs, not 30 like jai suggested, and that comes in the same level as my tested repeating strike sin... if i were to use simb to make heros more reliable at using dmg in melee, i'd go for the grenth derv, almost same dps as locust on SoH, but it kills the barrels also, not just master of damage... 83.240.216.103 07:42, 27 September 2011 (UTC)


 * this is me, btw... 07:54, 27 September 2011 (UTC)enormous
 * GDW, Barbs, SoH, runes + customised daggers?-- [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  08:18, 27 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Ive used Soh, customs and runes... not barbs (impossible to use properly, e.g., on every target), not GDW, but as i said, its not impossible... but seriously, this is a joke... anyway, i still have a lot of that weed, so maybe tonight i'll test a simbolic paragon, i have a thing for an hero with 2 rez signets and wings on their back, if i manage to create a decent build (and im defenitely the man for the job), ill call it Gabriel way... 83.240.216.103 08:34, 27 September 2011 (UTC) enormous
 * The point of counting Barbs is, if you need that extra DPS, then you would use Barbs first (i.e. a Boss, abnormally high hp foe, etc.) And I also roll with GDW. I did not use Vamp daggers, so the numbers would be slightly higher still. Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 17:58, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

It could work with MoP and Barbs Necro Player, but i don't believe in this Signets. You could do some more support or protection, because you have like unlimited Energy and Adrenaline. <font color="#62686C">Sjan <font color="#266592">talk  19:43, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * If you could suggest a better IAS that isn't on the Warrior line, please tell. I have tested the Mosassin, but it isn't practical since you stop attacking for extended periods of time. Heart of Fury would probably work, but it's not 33% :( Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 20:09, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

A couple votes need to be removed because they're idiotic.
Symeon apparently doesn't understand the build or its usage and Shadow Form Slayer doesn't give a reason to why the build is poor. PvX has so many other melee builds. Cuilan 16:37, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure that no amount of debate will save this from trash, but SFS's vote is removed for a factual inaccuracy. Don't feel it's necessary to remove Symeon's vote, but you could probably prod him into explaining it further. --  Toraen   talk  17:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Edited the vote. <FONT COLOR="#000000">S</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000033">h</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000066">a</FONT><FONT COLOR="#00009a">d</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000cd">o</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff">w</FONT> 17:25, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * To expand on my points:
 * 1) Melee heroes are unreliable sources of damage even with all your buffs on them, certainly less reliable than midline heroes.
 * 2) If you're trying to trigger MoP as many times as possible, you wouldn't want the extra single target damage. Same goes for the other damage buffs - there is a contradiction between the amount of single target dps being stacked and using this with MoP. Also, who put Judge's Insight in the Usage section? Symeon 17:59, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * You're not thinking as a whole team. You don't rely on the melee damage, you HAVE melee damage. Having a mix of both are always good. I do not ignore counters to melee, I get rid of them. Foul Feast and Smite Condition are my friends, as well as Rigor Mortis. Triggering MoP is only the half of it. In just a few triggers, MoP will be able to deal massive damage, as well as your priority target being killed near enough instantly- something 100b bars cannot do. Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 18:49, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * You are a melee damage dealer or you have none in your team. <FONT COLOR="#000000">S</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000033">h</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000066">a</FONT><FONT COLOR="#00009a">d</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000cd">o</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff">w</FONT> 20:31, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * People still run paragons and rangers. This is no different, apart from being more effective. They also lack "utility" apart from making things be dead. Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 20:38, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't call them melee tbh, they are ranged. (Mostly, unless they got daggers or something) <FONT COLOR="#000000">S</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000033">h</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000066">a</FONT><FONT COLOR="#00009a">d</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000cd">o</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff">w</FONT> 20:46, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Your votes really do not convey this to be trash. After weighing up your thoughts on it, I moderately rated it Good, which is more of an understatement if used alongside the right team. You should all expand your reasoning or raise the rating. Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 21:36, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

MoP subpage
^ tbh this should be on a subpage of the MoP bar as an example of what to use with it, along with VoS, 100b and dagger spam.-- <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain  <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  17:19, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * no-- Relyk 21:18, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Fix
Alex and I did some testing earlier and tried experimenting using Critical Eye, Fear Me and disabling Symbolic. It turns out that it deals more damage without Symbolic, Critical Eye and Fear me being used at all. In this case I will amend the build slightly, removing the trivial signets. Feel free to re-rate as necessary. This is, after all, the testing phase. Ӎiñon  23:07, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

ok DPS tests
Support characters: Barbs @18 curses, SoH @ 16, GDW @r10 Assassin attributes: 14 Dagger, 13 Crit, vampiric +15^50 q9 customised daggers I think you will find these results amusing.-- <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain  <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  23:03, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * 153 DPS
 * 161 DPS
 * 161 DPS
 * 144 DPS
 * Edit, used higher spec gdw and soh, vampiric daggers and constant 18 curses barbs to make data more reliable. -- [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  08:52, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Needs more skills
I'm being generous here, but I'm not going to re-rate an incomplete bar. Symeon 23:43, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * There are two optional slots, potentially three optional slots (WoP is pretty optional imo). The basic gist is now, get to foes fast, pewpew them and shadowstep to the next one and pewpew that. Supples it's own cover enchant with WoP or Critical Defenses. I think this is much more effective in terms of beating the poor melee AI of getting to the called target. Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 01:12, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Several rating issues
Hi. Firstly, there have been drastic changes to the build. The fact that I have re-built it after testing that Symbolic Strike negates damage to the overall build should not factor into the rating. Secondly, some people need to finish changing their rating or delete it altogether. I have a few problems with some of the votes at the moment: Jai's vote- "no utility, has to deal with crappy melee AI, 3 skills essentially" ok, firstly I have explained what utility is, and the character slot is indeed one big utility slot, inasmuch it kill things, which is it's purpose and the purpose for any melee or ranged character. The crappy AI of melee has been sorted with 50% IMS and two to three shadowsteps. Lastly, it is no longer "3 skills essentially", because the build has changed since his last rating. Basically all the ratings with "shitty melee AI" are very silly indeed, and I don't believe have tried running melee bars outside of random kossbars for kossmissions. Relyk's vote- "ignore anti-melee in PvE" yeah, you have a point here... But this is why we have Foul Feast, Empathic Removal, Smite Hex and Smite Condition. I do not ignore the fact there are conditions and hexes in PvE (there's daze too btw and rupts), but if you attack through them, you will be cleaned quickly, especially as the only frontline will be shadowstepping into the mob and taking full focus of the hexers in the mob, your hex removal skills will all focus on your assassin. Symeone's rating is the most well thought-out, reasoning and rating. It's still trashed it, just, but it's not just a "LOLTRASH" rating, which I can appreciate. Yes, it is much more effective with a necromancer lead, but I heard there are quite alot of those in Guild Wars. Vincent's rating is pretty odd, presuming one should not edit builds after trial-and-error is absurd, and there is nothing wrong with the elite; it's a 50% IAS and that's what it's being used for- to trigger Per-Hit-Buffs. It is effective inasmuch as it does well what was intended of it. If, then, you wish to lower the universality because only a necromancer will get use out of it then so be it. Trash voting a perfectly viable (and only viable) melee hero build is not what the community needs.  Ӎiñon  20:45, 28 September 2011 (UTC) - is that he and many others often advocate running daggerspam or a physical in pve, clearly this suggests there is not enough anti-melee in pve for it to be a problem. Hence providing the reasoning that a physical hero won't work due to anti-melee is poor reasoning.
 * The main problem with relyk's reasoning - "thinking pve has no anti-melee in it"
 * Another problem with the vetting of all physical heroes is that nobody running a frontliner as their main is likely to bring a physical hero - I can't recall the stats but I'm sure most people have melee profs as their primaries in pve :/
 * Also vincent, wtf you gave another melee hero build a 5 when you give this 0.8 for apparently being a melee hero (I'd suggest subtracting 2 at max for locusts being mediocre not 4.2) -- [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  21:09, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Comparing this build to Enduring Axe, as you have linked, is like comparing a fetus hammered on concrete to a healthy baby. Try again with a decent comparison. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan  <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 20:15, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Said build is a player one with a hero bar tacked onto it. (Most) people aren't taking hero bars into consideration when voting on such builds because they are primarily designed for players. I assumed that was the way things were supposed to work. Symeon 22:59, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I did say something about splitting player and hero bars waaay back if their ratings would be significantly different, but then everyone was like "lolno that's effort". Or they forgot about it entirely, not sure which. So yeah, we're stuck with what Symeon said. --  Toraen   talk  23:08, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm basing my vote on the individual build, it should be independent of whatever team you use so far as buffing him up as required. Players using melee builds does not translate to heroes using melee builds. Keeping yourself clean as melee is a completely different story from requiring your team to keep a melee hero clean. That part isn't too important compared to other parts of my vote, I'm surprised you're both making a straw man out of a minor point. Go after votes with a more reasonable argument.-- Relyk 23:42, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm gonna fucking bullet this stuff so you see everything. If you don't respond to one of the bullets, then I'll assume you don't have an argument against it. -- Jai . -  23:13, September 28 2011 (UTC)
 * I changed my vote to note the change in the build. You're still being stupid with the definition of utility; in any realistic sense of the word, utility does not mean pure fucking damage. Otherwise everyfuckingthing in GW would be utility, and thus the word would be meaningless. Utility means stuff outside of pure fucking damage and pure fucking healing. Again, you're just arguing semantics and moving away from real discussion.
 * Honestly, considering this only goes well with stuff like MoP, this really should be in a team build instead of on its own, because without huge AoE damage buffs, this REALLY sucks a hard one.
 * Again, there does need to be at least one warrior and one dervish hero build, because there are builds that require dervs/wars. It's a minor issue, yes, but it's an issue nonetheless. Earthshaker could probably drop the hero build, but that is still halfway decent if you micro well enough. Even then, I myself wouldn't mind getting rid of those hero builds, since they really are far from optimal, but I don't care enough to invoke the inevitable drama that would come with it.
 * Melee AI is still terrible no matter whether it has an IAS or shadow step. The fact you have a melee that you can't completely control on the frontline is the biggest problem. Player melees are great because they can pull and because PvE skills (and generally just being better at using skills) make them do big fucking damage. Shitty melee AI is still the reason why this is bad. At least with Earthshaker and VoS you can micro them to make them good (because they have massive utility and massive damage, respectively), but this doesn't gain anything from micro. Raw DPS alone isn't enough to make something decent. And the anti-melee thing is still more of an issue with heroes than players, but not by much and I can't be bothered going into the minor details. I'll let you "win" that one.
 * LF is not a 50% IAS. It's somewhere around a 25-30% IAS, because of dagger mastery already giving you double strikes (meaning LF, stacking multiplicatively, is only about a 40% increase in double strikes) and how IAS's work (a 33% IAS means 150% of your normal attack speed). Also, do note that PvX has trashed the *player* version of LF countless times, and that was back when Asuran Scan (and thus 200+ DPS) existed and Jagged>FF>DB didn't. The hero version is much worse because it doesn't have those things that I've mentioned multiple times before that make player melees so strong.
 * Thanks for responding, Jai, and in bullet points to further improve my comprehension. I notice you've said "fuck" about 50 times to make your wall of text slightly taller.
 * You did not change your vote. You think the +1 universality was it? I don't. I can't believe I haven't been clear enough on what Utility is. Utility skills DO. That's simply it; in the most broadest sense of the word, and the character itself, when used with GDW is KD utility, it's a trigger utility and with Splinter it's an AoE machine.
 * It goes well with MoP, and this has been noted. However, are you aware that every hero and every player bar go well with another_bar? We call that synergy, and when taken out of context of the team, you will have to use your brain a bit and think "Hmm, what will make this better in the whole team? I have 56 other skills to abuse this to it's utmost potential. Single-target buffs are also nice for taking out prime targets such as hard-hitting bosses, monks or nasty prot dwarves in Slaver's.... K.
 * There is no problem with warrior and dervish bars because you need them, but equally they are actually just as good for triggering phys hexes like Mark of Pain/Barbs, but lack the quick attack speed to gain full advantage of the single-target stuff like SoH. This takes advantage of both, because it will be able to proc Barbs/MoP as often as 100b hero war due to it not having access to WWA. Same goes for the VoS derv. This sort of moves swiftly on to your next bullet point, saving me ONE BULLET POINT (/cheer). Melee AI is terrible for the following reasons: They are clunky and do not react quickly to calls. They amble to their target and often get bodyblocked and cannot find a path quickly to the target. Assassin AI (or dagger chaining AI) is poor because they do not spam through their chain as soon as possible; they wait about a second before casting each skill, sometimes even just spamming their lead attack (see:Oni). Now, do you see what I have done? They have a 50%IMS to traverse quickly to their targets while bodyblocking is no longer an issue thanks to several shadowsteps. The dagger chaining problem was resolved by removing them altogether, actually improving a sin hero's DPS greatly (even without it's own AoE damage from DB). For some reason you didn't make a separate bullet point for this bit but here we go; Luring with a melee hero in your party. It's really no different from having a full body of casters in your team. If you don't flag them far enough back, a caster will try and run forward and cast "unto" the nasty unballed mob. Here's what you do, and what you should do when playing Hard Mode against any ridiculously tough mob (Slaver's, DoA, UW) You lure always as the player. You micro PS, you get a flatbow out, flag your heroes (cowards) back and go lure, ball, cornerblock; whatever you have to do to maintain aggro on yourself. THEN you let your sin pewpew and you call. Thanks for the little victory, btw.


 * Check wiki, as did I. Locust's Fury is additive. Check:
 * Dagger attack interval = 1.33 seconds.
 * Dagger attack interval under 33% IAS = 0.8911 seconds.
 * Attacks per second = 1.1220...
 * Expected number of attacks with a 78%* chance to double strike = 1.9975...
 * So on average, almost 2 attacks per second. Attack speed is effectively doubled by this combination; using Guild Wars mathematics, you're under a 50% IAS.


 * Double Strike chance appears to be additive; 14*2% from Dagger Mastery + 50% from Locust's Fury = 78%.


 * Finally, a human running Locust's Fury is a waste of time because they do not have such downfalls as the hero's AI. They can chain their attacks, they had Fox Fangs to spam under AScan and Death Blossom is too good to ignore. What you're failing to see is that this is not a human build with a hero tag stuck on the back.  Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 00:09, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
 * tl;dr, autoattacking works the same whether a player or hero does it.-- Relyk 03:29, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Not the other way around. Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 03:34, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Alright, I think I've pretty much said everything that needs to be said. I've got more than enough reasoning that my vote's not going to be removed, and you sure as hell won't change my mind about this, so you might as well lay this to rest. On a side note, this needs to be copied to User:Malokai92/Wiki Drama asap. -- Jai . -  03:58, September 29 2011 (UTC)
 * I did change my vote, I took out anything that related specifically to the previous version of the build (mainly being the removal of the signet shit, thus meaning you actually could use more than 3 skills on the bar). It still has the same flaws.
 * There are very few builds here that cannot act well as standalone builds, the first one coming to mind being SoGM. The exception there is that SoGM is rediculously popular, even though it should always be second to SoS. Otherwise, there's pretty much no build that needs another build to do its job that isn't in a team build. If something is bad on its own, then it gets trashed if it's on its own. For instance, awhile back there was this PvP mesmer splitter build that was only good with a certain combination (or something - I don't pretend to know much more than basics of PvP) for it to be effective. The team build was vetted, the individual build was not. This build really does require something like MoP, along with SoH and Splinter and Barbs and stuff, because otherwise it's incredibly mediocre. It's possible to assume that Splinter or even SoH will be on the team, but assuming someone will bring an AP MoP build without it actually being directly associated with it is unacceptable.
 * So I'm confused. Why are you bringing up an HB warrior when there is no HB hero on PvX? There's enduring axe, yeah, but that's a mostly player build anyway, and it's only really if you have to bring koss that you'd run something like that. VoS, however, is a very potentially strong build, and comparing it to an HB hero is just stupid. Heroes still have Eremite's, which is all you need. And those points you mentioned against melee hero AI are completely true, but those aren't the only reasons, as I have already mentioned earlier. I didn't mention the ones you did because, as you said, they aren't relevent to this build. However, they still are an aggro magnet, they still can't pull (and if you're a 60AL caster, you'll never be able to pull like a decent warrior would, because there are times when pulling with a flatbow isn't enough), and they don't have any of the broken PvE skills that make player melees so strong.
 * (since we're still doing the bullet crap and you mentioned that this should be in a new bullet) I'm well aware of how to pull, ball, etc. with heroes. However, the fact that you have a melee in your team that isn't in the same little ball of the rest of your heroes means you've effectively doubled the aggro area you are occupying, thus doubling your chances of picking up a stray aggro or patrol. Often you don't have the luxury of pulling a mob more than an aggro bubble from their original location, which would mean the melee hero could very easily aggro new mobs when he gets into melee range.
 * So I was wrong about LF stacking multiplicatively, which means about a 2-4% increase in attack speed. However, your total attack speed increase is ~50% (or 200% depending on how you look at it), but LF itself is only providing a rather small portion of that. On its own, with 14 DM, the IAS from LF is approximately a 25% IAS. Most of the IAS is still coming from Flurry/Frenzy/Heket's.
 * And LF was around long before JS>FF got buffed. There was Moebius, of course, but LF still had its advantages over Moebius but the general fact was that people said that, 1) the skills used to buff the sin could just as easily be used to do direct damage (i.e. replacing the MoP necro with a dom/illusion mesmer); 2) the AoE damage was not comparable to DB spam. Both of those arguments are just as viable now as they were a few years back, moreso now that AScan is gone and couldn't have been used on a hero anyway.
 * Your vote reasoning is fine, though I don't think it matches with the rating. Moving on, though.
 * SoGM actually does work fine by itself, it's just inferior to SoS; heroes can't use Painful Bond too well without micro. I suppose some examples of what I actually mean. Minion Bomber, "omg how will it kill anything for the first corpse 0-0-", Smite hero, "lol u gonna equip a sword on it and have it melee just for soh? pff melee hero lame 0-0-", The PvE scythe sin "omg no heals or defence". Now, what you're going to do is rage that it's "fucking" obvious that you'd have heals, defence and shit in your party, but that's not on their pages and there isn't even a note, whereas there is on this page; the skills it synergises with and would be good to have in the party. It has been ignored.
 * Actually, your argument about needing a warrior and dervish bar ring half-true. Infact, Koss starts with a tribal sword and shield. Melonni has a scythe, of course. To then say you need a warrior build saved just for when you need to use him, I'd presume no one wants to find an axe to use; they would rather keep their easy tribal sword and be done with him. Therefore, I will continue to embellish this 100b hero bar. VoS is indeed fine with Eremite's, but again, attack speed with a scythe is far from impressive and so, it's single-target DPS falters. In regular PvE you want to be ready for every occasion; big mobs and small. The single-target DPS is much more important overall, but a balance is even better.
 * Still on about the aggro control? Well, if you actually did pull, you wouldn't have this problem. Any caster can body-pull if necessary "just bring ps" and a cover enchant if necessary. But a flatbow does most areas... Hell it does 100% of areas, really. People were playing melee before Nightfall/EotN; that point is pretty moot.
 * This whole "it doubles your aggro range" situation is just in your head. It's a very situational circumstance to rate down a build for, because it can happen with casters too, and humans. Anton's not going to magically run away from the mob i'm fighting while on Guard and get out his own flatbow, is he?
 * I just did some MoD bashing (I know, not real circumstances!) and determined that with 0 buffs and just a constant 33% IAS I would deal 32dps. With LF and 33% IAS, I would get 46dps. Finally I tried both methods again with Ebsoh and then SoH, coming to the conclusion that with each buff added, Locust's gets ahead but a long way and I also noticed how damned slow daggers are at 33% IAS are!
 * DB spam never worked on a hero. You cannot compare human assassin bars to hero ones, in the same way you cannot run a hero AP-MoP or perma tank to farm vaettir for you while you micro dead. Pointing out ASCAN was nerfed in this circumstance seems to only further justify this hero if anything. The damage surpasses DB spam on a hero because they do not chain their attack skills.
 * That is all. Your arguments seem to be biased towards finding a reason not to use a melee ai based on their previous reputation, which has been badly represented in the past.  Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 05:36, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I just can't see why you would run this over a caster hero, possibly with a spear. Kracatoan 14:44, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

vincent's rating
Is terribly low. It is not a 0-0 bar. It may need cleaning up with a better mainbar, but it is certainly not bad, if you cared to read what it was being used for. Ӎiñon  20:00, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Just fucking give up, dude. The vast majority of people here agree that it's a trash bar, and that's all that matters. Removing Vincent's vote will do nothing for the build's rating. -- Jai . -  20:19, October 1 2011 (UTC)
 * Needs more circle jerk. owait. [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain  <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  20:21, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
 * All that is happening now is we are waiting for this build to be deleted, there's no point trying to deny that there is no reason at all to run this. Kracatoan 20:23, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Not to mention that the votes by you, Cuilan, Chieftain Alex, Sjan, Vorpal, MarcSinus, Nero, Razor, and Absolute would all need to be removed for vote balancing as well. -- Jai . -  20:24, October 1 2011 (UTC)
 * We can see the opportunities to use this build, and how strong it is. You don't use a human monk to heal 7 heroes, do you? Why would you presume this is used outside certain "perfect" parameters?  Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 20:38, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

This is fucking trash. Even MS/DB puts out more triggers of melee buffs than locusts. And jagged->fox->db beats ms/db by a longshot. Dunno why we didn't just well this from the start like every other bad bar that tries to make LF workable.--TahiriVeila 20:36, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Because it is workable and viable. Heroes will output less damage with MS/DB and j-f-db simply because they cannot chain attacks. I have not put a General tag on, which makes comparing it to human bars pointless. Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 20:38, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
 * No, the point is that although this may be better than MS/DB for an assassin hero, there is no reason to use an assassin hero in the first place seeing as EVAS does that for you. Kracatoan 20:41, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Random shitters on pvx spouting logic tha fuck?--TahiriVeila 20:42, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
 * plays dead game for 4 years* Skakid9090
 * Almost 6 now check out my dick.--TahiriVeila 21:16, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
 * We welled the build before, and it got in and out of it. Now with this "new" build we didn't do it yet, maybe too afraid Our Janitor wouldn't be happy. <FONT COLOR="#000000">S</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000033">h</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000066">a</FONT><FONT COLOR="#00009a">d</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000cd">o</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff">w</FONT> 21:42, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Minion, aside from that, this isn't optimal at all. Even in perfect circumstances. If you were to perfectly ball, micro MoP, SoH, and Splinter/GDW for this, you would still deal less damage than if you had a different hero running a hundred blades or vow of strength build under perfect conditions.And those can do more than just single target dps.-- Ultimak719 LIKE A BOSS!  21:45, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Having to ball is not the perfect circumstance and this is where 100b and VoS bars fail; Single-target damage is as important in PvE as AoE. They cannot kill prime targets so quickly. EVAS is good for luring, but fragile and cannot be targeted for healing too easily. Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 22:22, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The recent surge of 5-5 votes is pretty suspect if you ask me. Also, fuck innovation. The game is 6 years old; nobody should be ticking that box. Symeon 21:54, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

"TahiriVeila 		 Last edit: 20:37, 01 Oct 2011 (EST) 4 optionals doesn't make a bar." Oh, my mistake. It's clearly five.  Ӎiñon  22:40, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I can understand excluded (and alex) upping it to 5-5 rating when trashed votes started coming in, but not how the other users can justify 5-5 with reasoning like "holy shit a melee hero build that probably works!" Vincent needs to fix his vote since it was probably 1-1 and rating should reflect such instead of vote balancing. Tahiri's vote was already discussed to death that this is a hero build and hero AI is shitty for attack chains, I doubt he gives a shit to come up with a real reason. Excluded shouldn't have done an author vote on the build in the first place either. And Excluded, stop trolling every trash vote on your build, your biased view of the build is more blatant than Tahiri acting like a PvE elitist.-- Relyk 23:07, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Of course I'm biased towards it; I'm not going to be against my own build. I know when to run it and what with. I'll have the screens out soon of Wanton vs Forgewight, maybe even with a sin player for extra lulz (no sy). Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 23:57, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

My vote stands as it is. There is no rational argument displayed here that will make me change. Deal with it. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]   01:33, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Potential
As a stand alone it's weak. The suggested synergy builds should be required. If this were on some hero team for casters it be more legit. -- Moto   Saxon  00:04, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I can always suggest other hero bars and human teams that synergise with it, but I feel it would be pointless; only a really brave player will run this, and they're likely to know what to run with it. But if you still want, I can.  Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 01:42, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
 * the issue is that if you just look at the build as a stand alone it's pretty worthless. And when I read the description it gives no clue as to the context of it's use. As a melee character I'd probably never use it, and when it is used the appropriate caster builds should be present or it does no damage. -- Moto   Saxon  02:47, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
 * First phrase was "trigger OP physical buffs". You see there are no buffs on the bar itself... I thought it was clear enough. There is a list of extended skills it synergises with and is good to get in. The main ones are OoV/Blood Bond, MoP, SoH and Splinter/GDW, depending on area. Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 03:08, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Unlike pretty much any other hero build stored here for general use, this needs a team built around it to be useful. This obviously is not going to fly here as a standalone hero build. I don't think a locust heroway will pass vetting either, given PvX attitude towards the concept, but it would probably be more useful than this page were either to pass vetting.
 * On a related note, this has pretty much escalated to Caster Daggers levels of drama within a week, so I'm thinking this should be deleted. There's no way it'll be able to stay with so many users against it, and waiting 2 weeks is dragging out the inevitable. --  Toraen   talk  05:43, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Not quite fair; there are a few people in favour of it and I would like to keep this page while I work on a team or structural rework. I'll just put it back to trial later and keep the discussion. I would like to ask that if anyone is going to discuss the build they now offer constructive criticism, and no PvXicisms. That is all. Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 05:58, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, because that's going to work. Look, there's nothing to be gained in fighting for this page. It is going to end up trashed because there are too many people who will trash vote it. I am not a BM and will not spend the rest of my time on PvX picking apart votes on this build to keep it vetted. If you want to keep it, I'd strongly suggest you do so in userspace, since I can't allow this to bounce back and forth between trial and testing (it will just accumulate drama). Try making a heroway around this in the buildspace if you want, but this page is doomed even if I wasn't considering early deletion. --  Toraen   talk  06:07, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Lets just wait for the Melee Hero Update:) <font color="#62686C">Sjan <font color="#266592">talk  06:41, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Sijan has tried the build. What are your thoughts on actually testing it? Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 07:45, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
 * /facepalm-- Relyk 08:56, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
 * It does decent pressure damage and possible Spike damage with MoP. I run on every character different hero builds. It's not the best, but does work. <font color="#62686C">Sjan <font color="#266592">talk  09:07, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Sign mister Sjan. Now, about this "you tested it" situation, plz don't turn into Smity #2 <FONT COLOR="#000000">S</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000033">h</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000066">a</FONT><FONT COLOR="#00009a">d</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000cd">o</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff">w</FONT> 10:25, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
 * If you're so desperate for this to be stored, why not just add it to the MoP page? You only need the attributes and skills section; the rest a player should be able to figure out if they're actually going to run it. Alternatively you could make a fully fledged heroway and try to get that vetted against stiff opposition. Up to you, but trying to save this page is clearly a futile endeavour. Symeon 10:39, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree, take this to your sandbox for now and try create a heroway. Ppl can critique it there if you want. -- Moto   Saxon  11:19, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, I do admit it is better. However, I have a feeling it turns out bad and gets trashed. <FONT COLOR="#000000">S</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000033">h</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000066">a</FONT><FONT COLOR="#00009a">d</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000cd">o</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff">w</FONT> 11:24, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

This page is amazing!!Locust way!! Irresistible! A bad build will be bad, no mather what u do to it, but what stands out to me is some ratings this had... having so many 5/5's is a mistery to me,(not really a mistery, ive seen this kind of "lobbying" being done before with caster daggers)... as an ap mop, just as an example, i can summon miriades of vanguard sins, take full advantadge of ever renewing mop and never ever feel any need for melee heros,  why would i want to gimp my team setup to include an hero as melee? and why would a player play a secondary role to a melee hero? ull lose the kind of control only a player can offer, ull be losing on the much better use of buffs like mop or sw that a player can have, and if ur a caster and need a melee (not required, really, but still...) u can even run a... dagger chain build!! this is pointless, id rather use melee build myself, than to resort to this crap, also, as a melee urself u can bypass all melee counters with asuran scan, whereas this will fail, there is a lot of blind and stances in pve, even if u dont believe it, and this ridiculous hero will be plagued in a way a human would never be. All in all, its much easier to go melee urself, even if ur a caster, than running this... and splinters trigger all the same with spears on ur heros, remember that, and single target is less important than aoe, only a disco setup can offer a decent single target setup that is still under full control by the player and is almost totally imune to shutdown, contrary to this, if u use this crap in, lets say, shards of orr, what will this crappy hero do?? he will do nothing, and all the support uve placed in ur heros to feed this troll Anton will be thrown in the trash bin... this is very dangerous, the mob shuts down ur locust, and the intire party, designed to feed this aberration, will crumble like a sand castle washed away by a wave...  Geist tha burdill  Enormous 12:06, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Mr. sarcasm <FONT COLOR="#000000">S</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000033">h</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000066">a</FONT><FONT COLOR="#00009a">d</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000cd">o</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff">w</FONT> 13:05, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Mr. Mister? <font color="#62686C">Sjan <font color="#266592">talk  14:49, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
 * You wish <FONT COLOR="#000000">S</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000033">h</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000066">a</FONT><FONT COLOR="#00009a">d</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000cd">o</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff">w</FONT> 16:06, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Most casters won't opt for your "caster daggers" bar. This is for a caster, of which there are many in gilwors. Just to debate one point of enormous', A MoP nuker is not a secondary role and you can still lure. For difficult areas with lots of blind spam (rare) you wouldn't get far with a player phys either. Ӎiñon Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 16:41, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Your identing is wrong, use one ":" when talking to him. <FONT COLOR="#000000">S</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000033">h</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000066">a</FONT><FONT COLOR="#00009a">d</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000cd">o</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff">w</FONT> 16:47, 2 October 2011 (UTC)


 * A Mop nuker, for me, is a AP mop...otherwise, ur not really moping much... so i assume ur talking ap mop; as is said, spamming evas is easy on an AP bar, so, if i can create an average of 3/4 evas, why would i need this? that is the point... works perfectly. mop + evas, its even same target and the vang sin will inerently shadowstep to target, wich is a plus u dont have with ur anton...as u can see, i bypass bad AI using the games own design, no need for antonio there... as for the blind affecting players aswell, i said that a human melee, even if its a caster, can use asuran scan, and gets away with it much easier than heroes, and only one slot is required to avoid blind, block stances, enchs, etc., u would bring it anyway as a prime melee, i know i do, so whats ur point?  Geist tha burdill  Enormous 16:57, 2 October 2011 (UTC)