Archive talk:Team - Portable Swamp

Discussion
Ahoy! I'm the creator of the build before the Builds Wipe. I just wanted to update the build to be what it was just before the wipe. Garrik Fel 22:26, 2 May 2007 (CEST)

Um... the spirits will be killed by anyone with half a brain. I can see a casting of Savannah Heat or any other ele DoT spell destroying this team. btw: Greater conflageration? why?ZamaneeJinn 00:17, 3 May 2007 (CEST)
 * I wish I had saved the discussion page to this... I'll get so many repeat questions... See Below Garrik Fel 01:40, 3 May 2007 (CEST)
 * Also, the trick with any spirit spamming is not to place the spirits on top of each other. Nature Ritual spirits have a large radius of influence, you can spread them out a lot without much loss of function.Garrik Fel 01:40, 3 May 2007 (CEST)

I know I said I would make no effort to save the build after the wipe, I just keep getting ideas on how to make it better. I recently got rid of debilitating shot. It was a weak point in the build anyway. In it's place I put Spirit Shackles. -6 energy per attack (-7 per attack skill) should do wonders for this build. While doing that, I realized there was going to be an energy management problem with both this and dust trap. So I took out dust trap in favor of storm chaser. Now pretty much any attack that hits that ranger will give him +4 energy. 4 hits=1spirit shackling. Garrik Fel 21:55, 7 May 2007 (CEST)


 * Had a really good time running this build over the weekend... got a few wins, a few losses, but a lot of fun. You mention using Spirit Shackles, but it's not currently in the build.  I might ditch both traps on the Conflagration Ranger in favor of Spirit Shackles and Drain Delusions.  I'm not sure I understand exactly how energy works, but I don't see Famine triggering as often as I think it should.  Mainly because there is only one skill here that actually takes energy to zero... the spirits make things cost more energy, but they don't take away energy.  So everyone gets low on energy, but never actually hit zero until Ether Phantom is applied.  Tossing the two more inspiration skills provides more ways to remove energy, triggering famine.  The poison/toxin combo makes for enough degen, and spirit shackles would shut down melee (dervishes/sins especially... there's nothing funnier than watch an assassin get partway through a chain only to realize they no longer have enough energy to finish it :-D ).  Will try it again with those changes and report back... CoonerTheRed 18:51, 5 November 2007 (CET)


 * I'll be honest, I'm waiting for this to be marked for deletion, so I haven't bothered updating/archive/whatever this discussion page, so there are a bunch of references that don't actually apply anymore. The reason why spirit shackles was taken out was because it would take 6 seconds to cast because of the spirits, and that would just be way too long for any serious competition.
 * As for energy, this build is based around the enemy being forced to kill itself. If they do anything, (attack, use skills, heal, etc) they lose more energy than they should (Quicksand is a watered down version of spirit shackles that affects everyone), and triggering famine, the degen and traps are there to make sure that the monks are forced to participate as well.
 * You do bring up a good idea about drain delusion... It won't work with Spirit Shackles... but if we take out the traps on the trap ranger (it's not as useful as I thought it would be), we could probably fit in something else as well... Like ether feast or ether tap...  And if you drain ether phantom off... that's a nice energy loss of 8 energy... I'll work on that later today and put it up if it works better (which I don't see why it shouldn't).  Garrik Fel 19:22, 5 November 2007 (CET)


 * Duh, forgot about the cast time, and that Famine does the "stealing." Ether Tap is also a 3 (effective 6) second cast.  Maybe Waste Not Want Not for the utility?  CoonerTheRed 20:13, 7 November 2007 (CET)


 * Ether tap is only a 3 second cast. Nature's Renewal only affects enchantment and hex spells, and Ether Tap is just a regular spell.  As for Waste Not Want Not... in my opinion that ranger has enough e-management as it is.  The Mesmer skills only cost 6.5 energy (with QZ) each (and one of them will give you 8 energy when it's been cast).  Plus the run-off from Storm Chaser (thanks to Greater Conflagration) and normal e-regen...  He should be fine, it's not like he is spamming skills to be hindered by the spirits, and apply poison with that much expertise only costs 6.5 energy (with QZ).  I put in Ether Tap as an option because it causes more energy loss than Ether Feast, the energy gain is simply a bonus if you're running low, which I don't really see that happening for this ranger anymore.  Garrik Fel 23:00, 7 November 2007 (CET)

=Garrik's Attempt to Recreate the important parts of the discussion Page=

Effects of the Nature Rituals

 * No Rez (Except by Lively was Naomei, or Restoration) (to prevent Rez)
 * Enchantments take twice as long to cast, twice as much energy to maintain, and end 46% faster (to negate usefulness of monks)
 * Skills cost +30% energy and recharge twice as fast (to help Famine, and skill recharge)
 * Chants cost +4 energy (to help Famine)
 * Sigs cost 10 energy (to help Famine)
 * Every attack and skill costs +1 energy (An attack skill would cost +2 energy) (to help Famine)
 * Every time someone reaches 0 energy, they take 32 damage (The main source of damage of the build)
 * Poison causes -6 degen instead of -4 degen (small pressure, almost as good as causing burning to everyone, except this lasts longer)
 * All physical damage is fire damage (for rangers +30 Armor against elemental damage, and energy management for the Shackling Ranger)

The spirits stack. So if someone used an attack that was a Sig, it would cost a total of about 15-16 energy.

Basics of this build

 * Rangers place the spirits early on, even before the timer starts, camp near the base.
 * Famine is the main source of damage, the traps and degen are to waste the enemies' energy to heal themselves, and to help prevent melee from ganking everything.  Hence Barbed Trap and Tripwire.
 * The build is deceiving, the only way to see if it is good is to try it yourself. I'll be honest, I never thought this would have worked before I tried it, in fact, I purposely made the original concept for the build to "Screw them All" which meant my own incompetent team.
 * The Necro is the healer, hence the defensive spirits. Also, spirit light weapon acts as a fake regen, giving +12 regen.  Since it's fake regen, it isn't capped at +10.  Lively was Naomei can rez through FS
 * Quickening Zypher causes recharge time to be cut in half. This means while QZ is up, a ranger being attacked will only have 4 seconds when he isn't blocking 75% of attacks.  Also the 60 sec recharge skills are now only 30 secs, making them much more useful and replaceable should they get killed off.
 * The Necro, having Soul Reaping, will have a steady stream of energy thanks to the spirits

=DoTAoE=

I would argue that this isn't a counter per se. Yes, spirits can't move, I just sort of assumed that people wouldn't place them on top of each other. Losing a spirit every now and then isn't bad (it's even good if soul reaping works the way I think it does). You just will have to replace the spirit, a minor annoyance perhaps, but nothing as drastic as labeling that as a counter. I put in the "team usage" not to place spirits on top of each other. If I'm misreading this, please tell me. Garrik Fel 02:38, 6 July 2007 (CEST)

Problems
Other then that, some creative skills listed. Readem (talk *pvxcontribs ) 23:49, 30 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Not enough healing vs coordinated teams/spikes
 * I often run AoM or even an SH util Ele, which entirely deafeats the purpose of the builds
 * Wait wait wait (I know I said that I wouldn't defend the build anymore, please forgive me) how do those things entirely defeat the purpose of the build? DoTAoE has been discussed many times as being annoying, but not a counter to this build (you just have to not place the spirits on top of each other, like regular spirit spammers).
 * As for AoM, the degen is only there to help insure that monks waste energy. At one point, someone mentioned that the monks could just sit there doing nothing and win out that way.  The only point of the degen is to make sure no one can "AFK FTW".  Unless all 4 people have AoM (including the monk) it still fulfills it's role.
 * I'll be the first to admit that healing is a weak part of this build, but it's not as bad as it looks. If you scroll above to "Improvement" I go into more detail about it there.  Garrik Fel 16:15, 31 August 2007 (CEST)

= Someone who knows how, please archive all of the below =

Questions
-- (CoRrRan / talk) 19:07, 9 May 2007 (CEST)
 * Why bother with Strength and Honor, when you don't even meet the bow's req?
 * Why don't you go R/Rt with Draw Spirit? And perhaps the 2nd ranger can go R/Rt with gw:Gaze of Fury to discard the Frozen Soil, if the 1st or 3rd ranger have to use their res.
 * There is no Frozen Soil in your build, although you mention it in your usage notes.
 * For ranger no.1 Natural Stride would be better than Lightning Reflexes. He's not responsible for Poison, and doesn't need the 33% IAS.
 * I doubt the N/Rt would have enough energy, but I might be wrong. A lot of his spirits cost >15E and have a long recharge.
 * Dust Trap would be better to use on the spirit placers, instead of Barbed Trap, since you have to deal with the melee that's going spirithunting.

Answers
For some reason, all of my answers are missing... that's annoying


 * Good catch, I'll change that to "Man for All Seasons"
 * I thought about putting in Draw Spirit, but it's not worth it, just way to many freaking spirits and too high of an energy cost. It's more effective to wait for the skill recharge (it's cut in half with QZ).  As for Gaze of Fury... that's a good idea, I'll work that in right now.
 * Aha, that was there during the original post of this build, I'll take it out of the notes
 * Except natural stride only blocks 50% of attacks. While QZ is up, Lighting Reflexes will block 75% of attacks for 11 seconds out of 15.  The IAS is just a side effect
 * With the spirits steadily dieing, the healer should have enough energy thanks to SR. The energy cost is higher than 15.  it's either 20-21 or 32-33 for the expensive ones... The +energy weapon is a MUST for this build.  Though thanks to QZ, the skill time is half of what it normally is for the spirits, so that helps.
 * Ah, but Spirit Shackles works even better against melee. Don't forget, the traps/degen are not the source of damage for this build, famine is.

Garrik Fel 19:51, 9 May 2007 (CEST)

History of the build
One day in the Team Arenas, I was sick of the PUGs that I was in, due to their incompetence. I then made a build to "Screw them All." After winning a few matches with it, I decided to turn it into a build team that would be more functional, and hurt itself less. Since then, I have received a number of useful suggestions, especially in regard to the Healer. I say the build is deceiving because it is. It LOOKS useless, there's no denying that. It does most of it's damage through subtle means (i.e. famine and energy denial), and not raw damage (i.e. attacking).

=Improvement=

First of all, I appreciate the suggestions, I'm going to fight very hard for the changes I made myself, but if your ideas will truly help, it usually takes a second argument to make me see if you're right. Garrik Fel 16:52, 9 May 2007 (CEST)

I'm thinking Winter and using armor that provides resistance to cold damage would be good here, especially if the rangers went R/Me and took mantra of frost. More energy management, better defence and all round more ownage. Napalm Flame 10:44, 9 May 2007 (CEST)
 * Winter wouldn't do that much. Winter just changes elemental damage to cold damage.  In order to make that useful, one would have to change the armor from Druids to Frostbound.  The energy denial is too ridiculous to not have druids armor.  Since the spirits affect this team as well, you need all the energy you can get.  Look at the Ground ranger (This includes expertise):
 * apply poison would cost 7-8 energy
 * barbed wire would cost 7-8,
 * and tripwire would cost 6-7.
 * If you use all of them in a row that costs about 20-23 energy. Rangers only have a max of 25 energy without druids armor, and famine is always there...  Garrik Fel 16:52, 9 May 2007 (CEST)
 * Seriously this is getting annoying, this is the 4th (Correction, now 5th) time today I've had to retype this same freaking paragraph. I need to learn how to read more carefully before I respond to something.  It's a good idea, unfortunately, we can't spare the skill slots for 1 winter and mantra of frost per ranger.  This might be a good idea for another build team... I'll work on that later.  Garrik Fel 20:17, 9 May 2007 (CEST)

Needs a bit more killing power, how about Poison Arrow + Barbed Arrows on the Greater Conflag, to spread -9 degen. Also, your necro might want to pick up a few more heals, I can't see Spirit Light Weapon and Spirit Transfer keeping a team alive on its own. Tycn 12:48, 9 May 2007 (CEST)
 * Belive me, that with high cold armor and winter keep this team alive for a LONG time. The 41 damage to spirits for over 200 hp healed every 5 seconds is VERY nice. and 12 pips of regen is nice. And as for the degen, there is a trapper for that XD Napalm Flame 15:52, 9 May 2007 (CEST)
 * I disagree with the killing power, if you look at famine. THAT is where the damage is, all the other skills are there to deplete energy or to heal.  The degen/damage skills are so that monks lose energy as well.  Famine does 32 damage when a foe hits 0 energy.  This build is designed to get them down to 0 as quickly as possible, and to have them stay there until their dead.  And FS makes sure they stay dead when dead.
 * I truly agree that the healing is the weak point in this build, though it's not that bad. When QZ is up, the rangers can block 75% of attacks for 11 seconds, and the skill recharges 4 seconds after that.  That, combined with POSSIBLE:
 * Blinded enemies
 * Can't lose more than 10% health
 * Skill Interrupt
 * Blocking 75% of attacks
 * (The Necro Spirits, if they're up, but QZ should help with that as well), THEN add spirit life weapon, spirit transfer, and healing spring spirit light. In case you can't tell, I usually play Rangers, and Rangering is all about not taking damage; instead of taking damage then healing it.  Garrik Fel 16:52, 9 May 2007 (CEST)
 * Too true. I agree that healing is a slight problem as you only have 2 skills to heal with, but overall this build could easily get me 2 points of glad in 1 string. Napalm Flame 17:11, 9 May 2007 (CEST)
 * I realize now that "pain" isn't doing that much. I'm going to replace it with Spirit Light (+156 health.  Sacrifice 17% health, but no sacrifice if you're within earshot of a spirit.  Ranger spirits are spirits as well, so there's an extremely high chance you'll be within earshot of a spirit at all times).  Garrik Fel 18:53, 9 May 2007 (CEST)
 * Pain is a cheap spammable damaging spirit. Any alternatives to remove? And one other thing- you put in Gaze of Fury. It's a pretty useless skill to be honest, doing only 5 damage at the sacrifice of a spirit. I personally think that a better alternative would be to just replace that with healing spring. As the rangers cannot res, I reckon the first one should have dust trap instead of res sig, and the third one should have tripwire and healing spring instead of flame trap and res sig. Napalm Flame 19:59, 9 May 2007 (CEST)
 * But that is what Gaze of Fury is for. It's for quickly killing Frozen Soil should the healer die.  Then when it dies about 3 seconds later because it's so weak, SR some energy.  Though giving spirit light to the ground ranger is not bad.  I'll change that now.  Garrik Fel 20:17, 9 May 2007 (CEST)
 * Well I was thinking of healing spring because all the rangers have quite high levels of wilderness survival... But yeah, I see why Gaze of Fury is there now... But wouldn't just one res sig be fine? Wouldn't it be better to have more healability than just one dedicated player and one person with spring? Thinking about it now, spirit light at 3 restoration is better than spring as it is far more spammable. So why not put it on just about every ranger? Napalm Flame 20:58, 9 May 2007 (CEST)
 * Because of lack of skill slots. I would highly recommend keeping the 2nd rez sig, better safe than sorry.  If you can think of something to chuck from the Energy and Shackling ranger... because I sure can't.  But then again, I thought this build was perfect on May 1st... So if you can think of one, please suggest it.  Garrik Fel 21:19, 9 May 2007 (CEST)

Moar LwN on the rangers ftw. Swiftslash \\  20:08, 9 May 2007 (CEST)
 * Hmm... Lwn Moar? lol, that would be a moa bird with an axe. Napalm Flame 20:11, 9 May 2007 (CEST)
 * Or just more Lively was Naomei. Allthough Garrik solved it by explaining Gaze of Fury. The only prob is if the gaze of fury ranger dies first and the N/rt gets some ranger interrupt attention after that. Oh well that's not too likely, but it could happen! Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] 20:36, 9 May 2007 (CEST)
 * Which is why I suggest taking spirit light on every ranger, as it decreases the likelihood of that happening. Or just take gaze on the lot of them >.< Napalm Flame 20:58, 9 May 2007 (CEST)

Right, I been thinking about this, greater conflag is all alrite coz all melee is turned into fire. But if you got aa air ele to fight you're kinda screwed. So I thought about it and I've concluded- spirit of winter is a very good thing to have. Instead you just use cold damage reducing armor and almost all damage is converted into cold, meaning you can take things like mantra of frost for better energy regain and damage reduction, and on top of this using anti-cold insignias would do a lot of good. Napalm Flame 17:43, 10 May 2007 (CEST)
 * I understand what you're saying. I would like to work it in, but I don't know how.  If we get rid of Ether phantom for winter, and storm chaser for mantra of frost for the Phantom Ranger.  What could I get rid of in the ground and energy rangers?  If I get rid of lightning reflexes, and the opposing team kills off winter, this team is screwed.  The healing is still the weakest point in the build. With winter gone, the rangers would be sitting ducks.  It's too risky with not enough payoff.  Garrik Fel 18:30, 12 May 2007 (CEST)
 * I'm glad you get my train of thought, but I just thought of something. If you could free up just one slot, you could put winter in, and there is no need for mantra of frost, coz people could take frostbound insignia instead. 15 AL boost is okay XD And as for which skill to remove could always try barbed trap from the R/Rt, might work. Napalm Flame 23:25, 12 May 2007 (CEST)
 * But then we run into the e-management problem for the rangers. If we get rid of lightning reflexes for storm chaser... 115 AL when winter is up and energy management... I'll have to do some testing, I'll be back with some edits.  Garrik Fel 23:39, 12 May 2007 (CEST)
 * I tried everything I could think of, it's just plain safer without winter... Garrik Fel 22:11, 14 May 2007 (CEST)

Imo spirit shackles isnt very good in this build. Its a hex without a coverhex. And since its the only hex in the build its gonna be off that melee in about 0.5 secs. Feriluce 16:32, 11 May 2007 (CEST)
 * There's the snag. Gotta remove it, and that costs guess what. Energy. The thing we are trying to deny. Perfect really. It's better if it flies off coz then they gonna be dishing out more energy to take it off Napalm Flame 22:31, 11 May 2007 (CEST)
 * Indeed, so every 5 seconds, either spirit shackles stays on, or the monk looses at least 7-8 energy. Either way, it's good for the team.  A cover hex would be nice, but it isn't needed.  The energy denial is just too great.  It's really funny to watch a monk use Holy Veil when enchantments cost 2 energy pips instead of only one... I'm surprised more people don't use Nature's Renewal more often...  Though I did find one snag with spirit shackles... with this build, the casting time is 6 seconds... that just begs to be interrupted... I'll have to replace it... with Ether Phantom.  Instead of losing 5 energy per attack, they have -1 energy regen, and lose 4 energy if removed prematurely.  Garrik Fel 18:30, 12 May 2007 (CEST)

how is apply poison gonna work with greater confragation up, as apply poison only poisons when hitting with physical atacks...
 * Whereas with weapon/armor bonus descriptions the term "physical attack" mean "physical damage", a damage type, the "physical attacks" in the context of this skill refers to attacks with any martial weapons, regardless of whether the weapons actually deal physical damage. For example, while a Icy Dragon Sword would typically deal elemental damage, attacks done with that sword will be considered "physical attack" by this skill and will poison the target if it hits. - Fromg Guildwiki. Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] 12:51, 23 May 2007 (CEST)

HB
Could this work for HB? I'm up for trying new build, so as soon as I cap the elites, I'm going to try it. I was just wondering if anyone else has tried it. Bluemilkman 17:17, 14 May 2007 (CEST)
 * It won't work for HB. As soon as someone realizes that this is mostly a slow moving build, they'll just turn it into a running game, and this team would never be able to keep up.  Garrik Fel 22:11, 14 May 2007 (CEST)


 * I guess that would kind of suck. Good point. I guess I won't try it then. Thanks. Bluemilkman 22:36, 14 May 2007 (CEST)
 * And I doubt the hero AI would understand how to use this build... Someone should try it, I don't got the skills for it... and don't nature rits have really big range? [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] frvwfr2  (talk···contributions) 13:50, 23 May 2007 (CEST)

Perfection?
Is that it? I worry because of all the work put into this, and the new vetting system will be decided tomorrow... Anyone have any last minute comments before things start happening again? Also, I want to thank everyone that helped turn the build into what it is now. Thank you so much, and good luck winning the miniature everyone! Garrik Fel 02:40, 17 May 2007 (CEST)

= Final Touch Ups =

Now that the new policy has been voted on, it's time to get this build set up for vetting. As of the time of this writing, the new vetting code hasn't been posted, when it gets posted, someone be sure to bring it here. Also, if someone could go over the build page for clarity and syntax that would be great. It's all clear to me, but that might be because I wrote it, so a second pair of eyes would definitely help. Garrik Fel 20:36, 23 May 2007 (CEST)

Equipment
A couple of things i found, just simple mistakes that can be determined many ways...  Marin Bloodbane  ( Talk ) 23:40, 30 May 2007 (CEST)
 * There isn't a "Man for all Seasons" Bow inscription. And why would you want it just go with "Sleep Now in the Fire" for extra armor to the damage you will be taking.
 * You say Undertaker armor for the N/Rt, but that only gives armor when below a certain percentage, did you mean Tormentors armor?
 * It turns out that "Sleep now in the Fire" also can't be applied to bows. I instead decided to not list an inscription, but say that the bow grip "of fortitude" can be replaced by "of warding".  It depends what is more important to the team, health, or defence.  As for the undertaker's armor, tormentors armor would also seem to work.  My fear is that if I put in tormentors armor, then I have to add "Avatar of balthazar" to the counters list.  Whereas undertakers just progressively adds armor.  The way to counter that armor is to spike all the damage at once, and since spikes are generally costly with energy... it's seems less likely to be a threat.  Garrik Fel 03:54, 31 May 2007 (CEST)

=Vetting=

Time for vetting! Please go and vote if you are eligible! And... Vetters please test the build before vetting. Garrik Fel 16:35, 3 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Is the healer really viable since SR got nerfed again? Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] (contributions  * warrior guide ) 21:20, 5 July 2007 (CEST)
 * That is a good question, I see arguments going both ways. It's bad because of inconsistency, (aka the healer gaining too much energy that some is wasted) though once every 5 seconds is still similar to 3 in 15.  The thing you have to consider is that spirit deaths give full energy now (if it's an ally spirit... not a problem with this build) The only downside I see is that one could have wasted energy gains, and not gain any when they need it.  This is for the testers to decide.  Garrik Fel 02:38, 6 July 2007 (CEST)

=UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGH!=

4.45! 4.45!  Granted I'm extremely pleased it's not 0 but... 4.45! (I'm talking about the current build Rating) That's not within 3.5-4.4... nor is it within 4.5-5.0! Please, someone else vote to put it in a category. I don't care if the vote goes down so within the "good" range, I just find it extremely irksome that technically this isn't part of any category. So please! Go out and vote! One vote (in this case at least) makes a difference! Garrik Fel 21:19, 9 July 2007 (CEST)

I'll edit it when I get... more... time to test it. frvwfr2  (talk · contributions) 21:22, 9 July 2007 (CEST)

=Ratings 4, 7 and 8=

The ratings from Vhang, Howlinghobo and Readem I think should be explained, from their explanations, it doesn't sound like they actually tested it. "looks fun" (Vhang). 'run ftw!' (paraphrasing Howlinghobo). The Readem vote is puzzling, how is this at all like R-Spike? The fact you're using rangers? This person's explanation doesn't even mention how the build works at all. And I'm sorry, but can't believe anything tested could have such a wide range of ratings (from 2.2-4.9) (edit: now the range is 1.6-5.0. Garrik Fel 20:32, 22 July 2007 (CEST)). Either it works or it doesn't, the scores should be somewhat close together if they were tested. Anyway, I'm rambling. If Vhang, Howlinghobo and Readem would please elaborate on their votes, that would be great. Garrik Fel 17:31, 13 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Can I have admin permission to strike invalid votes? xP Napalm Flame  ^_^ [[Image:Napalm_Flame_Sig_Image.JPG‎]] (talk)·(contributions) 18:41, 13 July 2007 (CEST)


 * yeah, you're complaining about the bad votes not explaining. but hey, if good votes dnt explain, who cares? - Skakid9090 21:11, 19 July 2007 (CEST)


 * Well, it'd be hypocritical of me to only strike out the bad votes for that reason, and not all that apply. Besides, artificial inflation of scores can be just as bad as artificial deflation of scores.  Garrik Fel 21:24, 19 July 2007 (CEST)

= Ratings 6, 9, 10, and 11 =

Question: Did you read the team usage? Yes, there aren't any damage skills (or very few), that's not how you kill people. Considering the... extreme range of votes, I decided to put in the notes that this build is for experienced players. That's the only thing that I can think of that explains the spread of the votes. Something needs to be done. Either this works or it doesn't getting votes from 1-5? rant... RANT! So, anyway, something needs to be done, I'll get back to you shortly with either changes to the build or something... I don't know. Garrik Fel 07:37, 21 July 2007 (CEST)

= Here's the deal =

I'm tired of explaining this build. I'm tired of people who don't understand that this is a difficult build to use, and requires practice (though I will admit that the 2 monk thing does sort of negate this build, too much healing), I'm tired of people voting on it based on the fact there are no damage skills, so this is what I'm going to do. I'm not going to defend the build anymore, when it get's voted into the trash category I'm just going to let it. Though, I will save a copy (complete with the more important parts of the discussion page) to Here, so if you ever want to use it after this builds eventual deletion, please look for it there. Garrik Fel 18:58, 17 August 2007 (CEST)

SR nerf?
Can someone tell me what this is all about? Maybe I'm just blind, but I don't see any skills with SR initials. Bluemilkman /Talk To Me 03:51, 6 December 2007 (CET) Soul Reaping. Swiftslash \\  (contributions  * sandbox ) 16:54, 6 December 2007 (CET)


 * SR powers the necro, and spirits dont trigger it anymore. [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] frvwfr2  (T/C/Sysop) 18:51, 6 December 2007 (CET)