User:Fianchetto/debatable skills

The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly
A place to post and discuss skills that seem to generate differing opinions. Or if you're just curious about others' opinions on a skill. Convince others or be convinced yourself!

Blood is Power
[Blood is Power]

better or worse than just slotting e-management on individual bars? less total slots needed and decent e-regen, but it's elite, and if BiP dies many bars will suffer. &#9823;Fianchetto 17:36, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
 * BiP is good on heroes to power full Dom/Illusion mesmers without having to invest in Inspiration. It works because most skills can be 5e or signets. Aina Galamarth 17:57, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Considering a lot of times you get extra utility from energy management skills (arcane conundrum, power drain, leech sig, etc.) it's often better to simply have energy management on each hero. Also, BiP is a pretty big sac spell, so it's not really all that spammable, not to mention it's in a crappy attribute. Still, if it becomes a major hassle to keep your heroes' energy up, I don't see why you wouldn't run it. jī·gō·dǔ -  19:16, 1 Jun 2012 (UTC)
 * You only spec like 10 attribute points to get upto r3 blood, its a decent skill by then. -- Cɥıǝɟʇɐıu Alǝx 09:32, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

"Never Surrender!"
["Never Surrender!"]

why does this show up pretty often on Command support? &#9823;Fianchetto 17:36, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Best diffuse/anti+pressure. Maintain mending on everyone? OP. Aina Galamarth 17:57, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Same reason why everyone brings PwK and/or Life with Rit heals. jī·gō·dǔ -  19:16, 1 Jun 2012 (UTC)
 * i never found Life too timely. PwK is direct heals, which seems better than multi-Mending. &#9823;Fianchetto [[Image:Mending.jpg|19px|link=User_talk:Fianchetto]] 23:16, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
 * It's basically just pressure relief when you don't have anything better to slot. Because let's face it, there's only 1-2 good skills in command: Fall Back, and SYG if you don't already have SY. jī·gō·dǔ -  2:15, 2 Jun 2012 (UTC)
 * ok so it's a decent-ish filler slot. but still a filler slot, which i never seem to have. 64 slots make hard choices :\ &#9823;Fianchetto [[Image:Mending.jpg|19px|link=User_talk:Fianchetto]] 13:54, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, pretty much. You generally see "NS!" in builds where the primary only needs 4-5 skills to function, and you have at least 3 spots left over to fill (a perfect example is a FoC necro). For me personally, about 90% of the time the only thing I take is FB, and the rest I don't bother with. jī·gō·dǔ -  14:30, 2 Jun 2012 (UTC)

Elemental Attunement
[Elemental Attunement]

i've always wondered, why did adding GoEP into the old EA make so many people like dual attuning now? and why do people invest so much to get 18-20 ranks in an element? &#9823;Fianchetto 17:36, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Heroes drain their energy a lot and this allows them to deal extra damage. On a human it's inferior to AP, though. Aina Galamarth 17:57, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
 * And people didn't used to use EA because elemental damage in general was bad. Now that elemental damage has gotten a buff, everything, from EA to SF, has become viable again. jī·gō·dǔ -  19:16, 1 Jun 2012 (UTC)
 * still, some ele stuff are more "viable" than others, yes? why has EA in particular gotten popular now? &#9823;Fianchetto [[Image:Mending.jpg|19px|link=User_talk:Fianchetto]] 23:16, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, water is still crap, Earth is still almost all DoT, and Air no longer has any good elites, so you're left with Fire. You've got SF and EA, pretty much. SF does have some major disadvantages, the main one being that it's not particularly effective with only 1-2 of them (the other bit thing being you have to dedicate a lot of energy management to it). So, you're pretty much left with EA. Now, that Mirror of Ice build seems to have some potential, and I will admit Star Burst has some niche uses, but for general PvE, and for general players, EA is a pretty easy option to pick. jī·gō·dǔ -  2:13, 2 Jun 2012 (UTC)

Manly spike: 100B or VoS?
[Hundred Blades][Vow of Strength]

VoS is superior by far, no need to question. You don't even need a MoP. Aina Galamarth 17:57, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
 * i'm just wondering why 100B is even on the FoW page &#9823;Fianchetto [[Image:Mending.jpg|19px|link=User_talk:Fianchetto]] 18:18, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Profession flexibility. jī·gō·dǔ -  19:16, 1 Jun 2012 (UTC)
 * irrelevant to sc's &#9823;Fianchetto [[Image:Mending.jpg|19px|link=User_talk:Fianchetto]] 23:16, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Not when it's pug SC's for a dead game. Serious groups take VoS I'm sure. jī·gō·dǔ -  2:06, 2 Jun 2012 (UTC)
 * Depends on your tactics tbh. VoS's major disadvantage is that it cannot go in first at groups with mesmers. So if your doing a 360 without a nec, war is betta. Falrach 08:00, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
 * i just cover with Mirage Cloak or something. VoS/SS still gets shattered sometimes, but overall the pros outweigh the cons. for example, when pugging and the mt needs to leave/help, VoS can take over the tanking pretty safely on most groups. and in ally runs we never take 100b unless the guy is uber pro. &#9823;Fianchetto [[Image:Mending.jpg|19px|link=User_talk:Fianchetto]] 14:15, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

This question needs additional context. Where? In FoW, dervishes are superior, but with a standard team it simply does not matter. You can do 1000 damage to a mob with 600 health, or you can do 1200. At the end of the day, the ball still gets vaporized, so the question becomes which is better at cleanup and which is better when things go wrong? This is where the dervish is better with it's larger spiking power, and stronger cleanup utility.

Outside of FoW there are places where a warrior is simply superior. Deep is an example. A VoS dervish can technically tank many of the rooms that a 100b stance tank would normally do, but it's slow, painful, and very dangerous. On top of that outcast groups spam enchantment removal like crazy. Most manly way dungeons are also better with warriors because they can bring auxiliary skills more easily, or are better for taking down bosses. A prime example is the fact that with FGJ and dark fury/mark of fury up they can sun and moon every single attack, which utterly devastates in terms of single target dps with barbs and 100b active. Dervs simply cannot bring down a single target as fast in this situation because twin moon consumes enchantments, and scythes swing more slowly. Double Derv Dare 04:05, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

PvE scythe: VoS/Onslaught/Wounding Strike/Pious Renewal?
[Vow of Strength][Onslaught][Wounding Strike][Pious Renewal]

what do people see in Wounding Strike that VoS/Staggering Force/Wearying Strike can't do? and why even use Onslaught in pve? &#9823;Fianchetto 17:36, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
 * 'Cause VoS requires non-retardation, which is unfortunately far too much to ask of the majority of GW'ers. I'm partial to Pious Renewal for cspace though. ^_^ jī·gō·dǔ -  18:39, 1 Jun 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm part of the Pious Renewal master race. Vincent Evan [Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 19:05, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
 * ok added. VoS > PR personally (potential for more aoe, MoP triggers, and Sand Shards) &#9823;Fianchetto [[Image:Mending.jpg|19px|link=User_talk:Fianchetto]] 23:16, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
 * VoS > PR if stuff is preballed or you're willing to ball yourself. PR is better for cspace, in general. jī·gō·dǔ -  14:30, 2 Jun 2012 (UTC)

PvE hammer: Earth Shaker/Yeti Smash?
[Earth Shaker][Yeti Smash]

i'm all for Yeti. faster charge, aoe damage, non-elite, and pretty guaranteed condition (i always have an Ineptitude/Enfeebling Blood/Weaken Armor). the adren loss merely changes the skill sequence. what about Earth Shaker makes it so popular? &#9823;Fianchetto 17:36, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, ES doesn't cause you to lose all adrenaline. So on warrior bars (which is where you usually see ES), it's generally a better idea to take Earth Shaker. You don't use every adrenaline skill at once, so Yeti will pretty much always screw over the adren on at least one skill. jī·gō·dǔ -  19:16, 1 Jun 2012 (UTC)
 * On all bars*, yeti removes all adren which is shit, ES is a perma KD on mobs, unconditional. [[Image:They.jpg|36px|link=User:They]] 19:52, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
 * but adren builds up so fast, the loss doesn't affect performance much, especially if used in the right times. &#9823;Fianchetto [[Image:Mending.jpg|19px|link=User_talk:Fianchetto]] 23:16, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Implying one conditional knockdown can ever be better than perma knocklocking unconditionally. [[Image:They.jpg|36px|link=User:They]] 00:02, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
 * ok, having WWA ready right after ES is nice. i use it sometimes. still, i find Yeti not much less spammy, and the aoe hits are nice since the only other aoe nuking is from Crude Swing and WWA. &#9823;Fianchetto [[Image:Mending.jpg|19px|link=User_talk:Fianchetto]] 14:07, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but the rest of the warrior elites are pretty meh, unless you're running some DBS gimmick. Basically, if you have a free elite and/or you have any other adrenaline skills on your bar, Earthshaker is always the way to go. But on stuff like the dagger spammer where it's pretty much all energy attacks, taking Yeti would be fine. jī·gō·dǔ -  14:30, 2 Jun 2012 (UTC)

Barrage or Volley?
[Barrage][Volley]

ok, so i like free elites. most of the time. &#9823;Fianchetto 17:55, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Recharge. jī·gō·dǔ -  19:16, 1 Jun 2012 (UTC)
 * Daggers. Bows are shitty weapons in pve. Even attacking clumps of 3+ enemies, which doesn't happen constantly, splinter barrage barely manages to keep up with dagger spam, and in terms of single target damage daggers are an order of magnitude better. Double Derv Dare 03:46, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

SoGM or ST?
[Signet of Ghostly Might][Soul Twisting]

(on heroes i mean)
 * ST [[Image:They.jpg|36px|link=User:They]] 00:03, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, I run (Shelter/Union/Displacement) ST all the time, so this is a moot argument for me.
 * what if hero is running stuff like Shadowsong/Disenchantment/Anguish/Pain? SoGM pretty much doubles dps, but ST is easier to (not) micro.

AP or AoS/EBSoW?
[Assassin's Promise][Air of Superiority][Ebon Battle Standard of Wisdom]

AoS/wisdom can be used for long recharge elites and Arcane Echo+spammy elites. let's consider the first case.
 * this is one point where i'd gladly give up the elite freedom for AP's almost guaranteed effects. now i like AoS and all, but the gamble is not worth screwing over your whole bar of 30r nukes when it fails. here's to give you an idea of the dice you're playing with:
 * after killing 5 foes, the chance of a AoS recharge is 41%.
 * after killing 10 foes, the chance is 65%.
 * and after you're done with 5-10 foes, the average mob is pretty much dead already, so a recharge becomes useless after all. i wouldn't bet my time on it.
 * now you might say, wisdom can save your bar when AoS fails. well, the chances of AoS not triggering and wisdom triggering is 35% (after killing 5 foes, when a HSR is still (maybe) useful).
 * wisdom also buffs other party members, and AoS has other nifty effects like emanagement. but overall, i wouldn't play a build that relies on such tough odds.

now consider Arcane Echoing low-recharge elites like DwG, Star Burst, and Esurge.
 * the probabilities of AoS don't change, but the tactical idea is much different now: if AoS doesn't trigger, you've still got a robust build which can continue performing well. instead of having your whole bar on recharge, you have only 1 slot recharging. also, the emanagement nicely matches the increased energy demands of echo and double-spamming. all said, i think AoS is one of the most appropriate skills for echo bars. &#9823;Fianchetto [[Image:Mending.jpg|19px|link=User_talk:Fianchetto]] 15:54, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

EBSoW should be mainbar on any player running a caster based hero team. 16:24, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
 * if you stay in the midline and have like 30s fights sure why not &#9823;Fianchetto [[Image:Mending.jpg|19px|link=User_talk:Fianchetto]] 17:50, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Deep Wound in PvE
[Fevered Dreams]["Finish Him!"][Wounding Strike]

never understood why pve Deep Wound is so popular here. how hard is it to just deal 100 aoe of real damage? ("FH" by itself is ok since for all intents and purposes it is "real" damage.) &#9823;Fianchetto 17:50, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I like having it on melee since it's +100 on your buffed attacks (stuff you hit with it will be dead before your DW is recharged anyway) and most melee have optional slots it can go in. DW attacks are comparable to multi-hit attacks for cleanup, and there's usually little reason you can't run both. Wounding Strike is a mediocre option though because PR completely outdoes it at c-space and has more AoE damage anyway.
 * Can't say I've bothered much with DW on casters outside of FH and melee gimmicks. If you run Fevered though you might as well FH. Making most of FH's effects AoE is the probably one of the best things about Fevered Dreams (the other being that you get AoE daze applications, which FH also triggers). -- Toraen   confer  05:23, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

PvE Star Burst/Shockwave
[Star Burst][Shockwave]

lol good times. anyway. i'm not going to start another debate here. all i'm curious about is what do you really think about these skills (and caster ballers in general). why do you think it's good/bad? &#9823;Fianchetto 17:59, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * There's always weird dissonance about lack of armor with these (in comparison to things said about lolprots on other pages), but whether you go Star Burst, Shockwave, or Mirror of Ice it all contributes a sizable amount to casterspike hero setups and each has it's pros and cons, with survivability options if you need/want them. If you know what you're doing, or have an ST hero, then you should be able to pull off PBAoE on an ele. Some areas it is more of a pain than it's worth, but that's true of many builds. -- Toraen   confer  05:44, 7 July 2012 (UTC)