Archive talk:A/W Backbreaker Sin/Archive 1

I know this seems odd, but it does seriously work. Klumpeet . ŧ . ¢. 03:36, 18 April 2008 (EDT)

Didn't we have this posted before? --71.229 03:37, 18 April 2008 (EDT)
 * I don't think so... if we have it must have been deleted because i cant find it in All-Tested, Archives or Trash. [[image:klumpeetsignature.jpg|19px]] Klumpeet . ŧ . ¢ . 03:39, 18 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Yeah, it was a while ago. Slowly unfavored, IIRC. --71.229 03:44, 18 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Yeah. It got trashed b/c weap swapping ain't good in a spike build like this. Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] (contributions  * sandbox ) 09:16, 18 April 2008 (EDT)
 * A/W Backbreaker Spiker Sin Was also trashed due to people complaining about having to get 10 adren. [[Image:Kamer_sig.png|19px]]  Kamer  (Talk|Contributions) 10:42, 18 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Well trash this then if you think it is necessary. It does make sense about having to get adrenaline but weapon swapping shouldn't be a problem imo. [[image:klumpeetsignature.jpg|19px]] Klumpeet . ŧ . ¢ . 10:58, 18 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Ya, I cant get this to work in RA at all... Having to charge 10 adren on a sin with no defense skills is nigh impossible -I Did It For Allah


 * Cough*... first you have to load up your adrenaline which will take hours if you are being attacked because you cannot activate frenzy... after that if your Backbreaker fails due to guardian or any other common blocking / antimelee-skill you cannot use a single skill because all of them need the knockdown to activate... and overall you cannot cap any shrine so i think it is TRASH!!! Breitschleif 11:14, 18 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Daggers can double strike and have faster attack speed than all other weapons, it wouldn't take that long. Or you could just bring a spear and frenzy. --Amorality 14:41, 18 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Oh and I know this is off topic but...how do I get the link back to my signature? -->Amorality 14:42, 18 April 2008 (EDT)
 * would be epic to see this in high end, no doubt. (Kiron 15:53, 18 April 2008 (EDT))
 * @Breit, it doesnt take forever to load up adren, and nearly every sin spike has to recharge if it gets shotdown early combo. [[Image:Kamer_sig.png|19px]] Kamer  (Talk|Contributions) 18:06, 18 April 2008 (EDT)

Took off tags
This is HB only. You charge up, your necro takes Rigor Mortis, strips all the enchants ect and then you spike. Frenzy doesn't matter as much since they don't insta switch to you anyway. Also Breitschlief, all hammer builds work off KNockdowns, so your basically saying all hammer builds are trash too because blinding and blocking exist.--The Gates  Assassin  15:45, 18 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Add RA back, it destroys shit there. --71.229 18:07, 18 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Have to assume people aren't dumb enough to not notice a sin is in frenzy.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]The Gates  Assassin  19:29, 18 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Flail. :D --71.229 20:23, 18 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Borat (in my guild, pretty famous as well for TS spike and such) runs this in halls all the time. Its hot. You're pretty bad at weapon swapping if you can't use it. 86.131.120.27 21:36, 18 April 2008 (EDT)

This build is good, I've been runnign it in RA since I first saw it. The fact you have to build up adren counts for every hammer warrior out there, it's no difference. Just use daggers to build up. Besides, after your combo you're already at like 6 or 7 adren from doing the combo. Only the first time takes a bit longer. <font color="#033361">Railin 05:13, 19 April 2008 (EDT)
 * People calling this build either trash or bad, needs a wake up call. I have also been running this build since i first saw it here, and it's prety hot. Weapon swapping dosen't take more then ½ a second, and it's pretty good to have your target floor'ed throughout the entire spike. It dosen't take more then a few seconds to build up the adrenaline with a pair of furious daggers because you dubble strike a lot. After excecuting the first spike, you hit your target 6 times, making backbreaker cost essentially 4 adrenaline (stacks well with Flail). And about guardian as a counter.. Most melee spikes have this, seriously that isn't special for this build. Squirrel 07:53, 20 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Love it, most fun ive had with a sin for ages =) so glad SOMEONE is showing initative with wepon swapping and DEFFO good for RA....it can eat a monk alive and dejen out the higher armour classes 1nce uve killed the monk =) i like wepon swapping =)--<font color="Blue">Havitas [[Image:Weapon_of_Fury.jpg|20px]] 15:01, 15 June 2008 (EDT)

Dark Prison
is way better. The snare helps if they're running while you try to spike them because they'll be far away after you used BB. Energy is no issue. <font color="#033361">Railin 05:14, 19 April 2008 (EDT)
 * No. Death's Charge is better because:

A. Dosen't give away the spike B. You don't need a snare, he's knocked down C. You say it helps against kiting when you need to spike them down. lol. When you shadowstep, you follow up with BB afterward. You don't follow them around and then spike. Change it back to death's Charge, i don't know how to. Squirrel 07:53, 20 April 2008 (EDT)
 * BTW, i edited the order of the skills. Makes more sence that waym since that's the order in which they are excecuted. Squirrel 08:05, 20 April 2008 (EDT)

Lol, you srsly need a snare, u actually want to build 10 adrenaline, snaring yourself without snare??? Frans  08:12, 20 April 2008 (EDT)
 * You don't need a snare, because you can build up adrenaline on front-liners attacking your team. [[image:klumpeetsignature.jpg|19px]] <font color = "#000">Klumpeet .<font color = "#C09F1C"> ŧ .<font color = "#C09F1C"> ¢ . 03:17, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

BB has a casting time. In that time they can move until it hits. Then you have to walk back up to them to use your falling skills. Having a snare helps. <font color="#033361">Railin 08:31, 20 April 2008 (EDT)
 * No, DC is fine.  Fishels [슴Mc슴] Mootles  08:32, 20 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Try playing the build first. You have enough time to walk up the the person you BB'ed, and excecute the spike properly. Also about the adrenaline building.. Change targets. It's that easy. Squirrel 08:39, 20 April 2008 (EDT)
 * So far to walk. If someone's KD near you, that really won't be an issue. 4 second KD should be the only snare you will ever need. Rusty--RfBM 17:26, 20 April 2008 (EDT)

Article Cleaned up
I cleaned up the article, updated the descriptions. Squirrel 11:18, 20 April 2008 (EDT)

Hmm testing this atm, idea is coolEsc_ape 12:02, 20 April 2008 (EDT)
 * also testing itIcyFiftyFive 03:18, 21 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Hrm, it seems that I can't seem to time the weapon switching properly with the escape key, maybe it's just me?IcyFiftyFive 03:29, 21 April 2008 (EDT)
 * No, it's not you. Weapon switching while attacking is a bitch.[[Image:Impossible_Odds.jpg‎|19px]] Frans  03:33, 21 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Well after switching around some of the customizable buttons on my mouse (two side ones for Esc and Switch to Weapon set 2) I can do it, but just barely... Pretty effective spike though :DIcyFiftyFive 03:43, 21 April 2008 (EDT)
 * I can do it easily with escape key o_0 &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Rawr. 03:49, 21 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Pro :/IcyFiftyFive 03:53, 21 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Or you can just sidestep if Esc is too hard. [[Image:mightymouse.gif|25px]] moush$2+2=4$ 05:41, 21 April 2008 (EDT)

Esc key
what does the esc cape do. I looked in the controls and it isnt up there.
 * Read the notes iv'e edited the article with: "The Escape Key is set by default to cancel all actions, the time it takes to switch between weapons is almost not noticeable." :) Squirrel 17:38, 21 April 2008 (EDT)
 * what does canceling actually do? thanks for telling us that it cancels actions wtf does canceling have to do with weapon swapping being almost not noticeable? Champion 08:22, 12 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Weapon swap, see Anomaly. ~ <font color="#444">ĐONT <font color="#444">* <font color="#444">TALK  08:29, 12 May 2008 (EDT)
 * hmm thats what i thought it did. that wiki page says if you cancel after you swap i asume this is still true if you cancel before you swap as sated in the useage... Champion 03:53, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Actually, you can also just cast+swap simultaneously. It doesn't work with skills though =(. --<font color="Black">Readem 00:10, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

Falling Lotus Strike
We need another attack instead of it, i can't get to it before he gets back up in time. The only way i can do it is if i set all of my skills to the number bar, wep set 1 and 3 for F and F2 and all around esc.-- Fire Tock  20:26, 21 April 2008 (EDT)
 * I can do it better now, it just takes a lot of practice to get it to work.-- Fire [[Image:Fire_Tock_SigPic_2.jpg|19px]] Tock 20:31, 21 April 2008 (EDT)
 * This build is awesome!-- Fire [[Image:Fire_Tock_SigPic_2.jpg|19px]] Tock 21:02, 21 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Having fun talking to yourself? This strangely reminds me of the way people vote without any idea of the merits of the actual build.  I also like how it took you 5 minutes from impossible to possible and you call that alot of work. 204.52.179.199 12:06, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

Master of Healing
This build is awesome. It killed the master of healing. NOthing kills the Master of Healing. You should rename this build to April 31st, because it's impossible (well, it does this impossible).-- Fire Tock  21:10, 21 April 2008 (EDT)


 * ... &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 21:12, 21 April 2008 (EDT)


 * That is such an epic comment...my eyes...--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  22:42, 21 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Lol, you know what else kills the master of healing? HB Coward Sin IcyFiftyFive 22:52, 21 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Know what else? ANY BUILD THAT DOESN'T SUCK COMPLELY. (hint hint)--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  22:56, 21 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Elf-Tab can kill the master of healing. And no, he wasn't using a backbreaker sin... [[image:Panic_elftab.jpg]] - PANIC!  [[Image:Panic_sig4.png|50px|18px]] <font color="#D70000"> sexiness!  05:17, 22 April 2008 (EDT)

This remind anybody of pre 11/13/2007?
After trying this build out I have to say it's probably the best sin gank I've seen since the old SP build got nerfed. I personally feel this is inferior to the old SP build (nothing will ever again be that good), but when you deliver the spike it feels quite reminiscent of the old SP build. I'm just wondering if anybody else has felt the same way. The SP build of old probably deserved the nerfs it got, but it was a fun build. I haven't had as much fun with any sin build since then - until this one. I miss the element of surprise that this build lacks (mainly during the initial period of a battle), but once you're rolling this build does feel pretty good. :) Zephyr Cloud   14:41, 22 April 2008 (EDT)
 * I agree, it can kill before people get up and have a chance to do anything, even at relatively high health. I love this build. [[Image:mightymouse.gif|25px]] moush$2+2=4$  15:32, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

April 31st
PLease rename this to April 31st.-- Fire Tock  20:18, 22 April 2008 (EDT)
 * ...What? --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  20:19, 22 April 2008 (EDT)
 * IT KILZ TEH MASTAR OFF HEELIN@ DATS Y!--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  23:05, 22 April 2008 (EDT)
 * I fucking love Fire Tock. [[Image:mightymouse.gif|25px]] moush$2+2=4$ 15:33, 23 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Why rename? coz Fire Tock is epic --<font color="Black"> Super Igor  15:39, 23 April 2008 (EDT)

IAS
I honestly don't like flail and have a better suggestion for the what the skill could be, and it goes perfectly with the build. I use Frenzy, and i use it before Backbreaker, not after, so i cna buil up adrenaline quicker. So, what if we used Beserker's Stance? It would be perfect.-- Fire Tock  01:55, 26 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Flail is not only free, but you can maintain it really easily. Use Backbreaker--> Flial --> Combo --> Dash. It's really easy. Berserkers ends if you use a skill iirc, and isn't needed. With all the dual strikes you get in you can charge adrenaline really fast.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  02:03, 26 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Flail is awesome. [[Image:Railin-WoH.jpg‎|19px]] <font color="#033361">Railin 04:07, 26 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Flail Stacks really well with this build, seeing as how they are unable to move while KD'ed, and that it stacks well with the whole adrenaline thing. Frenzy is very risky on a sin, and you want to be able to cancel that ASAP. That's not always an option, seeing as how dash only fits into the build in HB's. You can also exploid the fact that most opponents in RA arent that bright, and use flail as an IAS while building adrenaline, you just need to know which target to sit on. Ussually, Paragons, rangers and melee attacking you will satisfy this condition. Squirrel 08:09, 26 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Ok, i guess it's good for use after BB, but what i'm saying is... it isn't really needed. If you attack faster, so what, you don't need IAS for using skills, if you use Beserkers Stance, you get twice as much Adrenaline (or is it %50 more? If so, then it's 25% more adrenaline), plus you attack 33% faster to charge up BB faster if you use it before. If this conflict goes on, we can just make it a variant and well, it'l look like this.... (btw, just read the variants and the notes)
 * Well, and IAS is really needed it excecute the entire chain. I don't think you can land FLS without an IAS. Squirrel 14:16, 26 April 2008 (EDT)

Attributes and Skills
[build prof=Ass/War Dag=12+1+1 Cri=12+1 Hammer=3][Death's Charge@0][Backbreaker][flail][Falling Spider][Twisting Fangs][Falling Lotus Strike][Blades of Steel][Optional][/build]


 * Res sig (RA/TA/HA)
 * Dash (HB)

Usage

 * Build up adrenaline with weapon set #4
 * When you have fueled both Backbreaker and Flail, equip weapon set #3.
 * Select your target, and press (by default): Death's Charge -> Backbreaker -> Escape(Key) -> Weapon set #1 or #2 -> Flail -> Falling Spider -> Twisting Fangs -> Falling Lotus Strike -> Blades of Steel.

Variants
[build prof=Ass/War Dag=12+1+1 Cri=12+1 Hammer=3][Death's Charge@0][Backbreaker][Berserker Stance][Falling Spider][Twisting Fangs][Falling Lotus Strike][Blades of Steel][Optional][/build]


 * Dear god that's hot. LavaEdge324 22:21, 19 June 2008 (EDT)

Furious Daggers?
Furious Spear is ranged and gives you the opportunity to have a shield in the spike downtime. Much better imo. <font color="Black">Dark <font color="Black">Morphon <font color="Black"> (contribs)  10:11, 10 May 2008 (EDT)
 * That is what i originally put, but somebody changed it... &not; Klump  eet  10:12, 10 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Umm daggers attack faster and don't miss if people move.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  14:03, 10 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Who is seriously going to take the time to kite spears that hit 1's and 2's? Driggy 01:33, 11 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Just make your defensive spear furious and get 2 daggers. [[Image:Railin-WoH.jpg‎|19px]] <font color="#033361">Railin 02:11, 11 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Heros are constantly kiting.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  07:59, 11 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Then take both. I was more talking about arenas. [[Image:Railin-WoH.jpg‎|19px]] <font color="#033361">Railin 13:30, 11 May 2008 (EDT)
 * TBH charging adrenaline with the daggers is much, much faster. On top of that, you deal some minor damage. Squirrel 10:21, 12 May 2008 (EDT)

Vampiric Hammer
is +5 dmg. Sudnering is +0 cuz no requirment met. <font color="MediumVioletRed">En<font color="OrangeRed">j <font color="OrangeRed">oy  <font color="#D70000"> phailer! 08:41, 12 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Good idea, i will edit the page. Squirrel 10:21, 12 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Already did, cuz 5 damages is ftw :p <font color="MediumVioletRed">En<font color="OrangeRed">j <font color="OrangeRed">oy  [[Image:Frenzy.jpg|18px|User:Enjoy]]<font color="#D70000"> phailer! 10:28, 12 May 2008 (EDT)

Would It Be Possible To Use A Macro?
My question is the name of this topic. I know there are people on different sides, with some saying that weapon swapping is what makes this take skill and yada yada. The reason I ask for a macro is because with a good macro we could make this build potentially spike so quickly that BoS would hit the target before it gets up and has the chance to use a spell. It would remove some of the guesswork that comes from not performing a correct weapon swap. It would simply make the build more reliable. If anyone knows of a way, please give me some further insight, as I have tried to do this with MacroMachine with no success. PS I am not good at macros.
 * I don't think GW supports macros. Kinda IMBA is any old idiot can deal a 5 second KD, 500+ damage, degenerating spike.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  21:19, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Yes, you could use a macro to do this, but you run the (totally insignificant) chance of getting permabanned since GW's TOS forbids macros. --71.229 21:21, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I tried the build with macro, but it's not that great at all. There's a small delay whatever you do so you can't pull of your chain quicker. ~ <font color="#444">ĐONT <font color="#444">* <font color="#444">TALK  00:48, 21 May 2008 (EDT)
 * GW forbids macros? Well, I should be banned pretty hard then, since I've been using them.. for.. well... ever. I don't know if they could even claim you were using a macro for GW, seeing as most macros just happen to affect whatever window you have open, and you can, if you spend the time, bind keys through your keyboard anyway. Ex: I have Scroll Lock bound to run a screen recorder, and left-alt bound to hold Alt-Ctrl-Shift. Oh, and my WinKey is bound to Unicode. So.. Yeah. If someone could get a link to macro guidelines and/or rules as declared by ANet, that'd be great. Anyway, if you need one, just use ACTool. I'll try to write up the code for it sometime. It's pretty basic, really. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2">cedave <small color="#AA226D">(contributions_buildpage)  17:36, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
 * You aren't banned from running a script to do a few commands with one key, it's only macros that do things ingame for you that are. --[[Image:Ibreaktoilets_Signature.jpg|User:Ibreaktoilets|20px]]<font color="Black">Tab  <font color="Black">Moo  17:38, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
 * This is really easy to macro effectively. Any program that allows Pause statements with milisecond intrevals (there are several) work perfectly. 74.210.9.30 17:42, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I have the macro on my GW mouse.. the Razer driver itself has macro feature so it would be pretty lol if they'd ban me because of their mouse. Anyway I think ban is for "go there farm me ele swords while afk" type macros. ~ <font color="#444">ĐONT <font color="#444">* <font color="#444">TALK  17:46, 23 May 2008 (EDT)
 * That makes more sense. Those macros requiring searching the GW window, too, so there might be licensing issues at that point. If anyone wants to help me test/time the a macro for this, that'd be great, seeing as I don't have a computer on which I can run GW effectively right now. Of course, the timing shouldn't be all that difficult anyway. I'll see what I can do. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2">cedave <small color="#AA226D">(contributions_buildpage)  16:13, 24 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I'm willing to give it a try dave, though I have no idea on how to use macros well so I can't do any like editing or whatnot. I made this topic btw, I always forget to sign :P.ArisB 16:31, 26 May 2008 (EDT)
 * What you are tring to acheive (getting BoS off before they recover)is easy enough without any macros. Atleast i can do it. Squirrel 17:20, 27 May 2008 (EDT)
 * We here at PvX commit ourselves to the pursuit of advancing the possibilities of minimal effort. We call on the most Leet to guide our lethargic ways and lead us into facility and languor. By striking only one key in the place of several, we keep to our tenants of listlessness and torpor. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2">cedave <small color="#AA226D">(contributions_buildpage)  18:25, 27 May 2008 (EDT)

HB
Saw some ppl get slaughtered by it--<font color="99CCFF">R ELYK   <font color="CCCCFF">(Talk  | <font color="99CCFF"> Edits)  07:28, 26 May 2008 (EDT)
 * *gasp* [[Image:Railin-WoH.jpg‎|19px]] <font color="#033361">Railin 12:25, 26 May 2008 (EDT)

I like Pie &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jankz goes man (contribs).

Changed attributes
I changed 3 in shadow arts to 3 in hammer marstery. I don't know who changed it to that, but it is plain silly. That makes the build loose focus. We want to kill, not heal (death's charge only functions as a shadow step, nothing else).

+4 damage > + some 20 healing from a shadowstep Squirrel 17:26, 27 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Discuss before you change. It was vetted great that way, and probably as such due to its utter lack of other forms of self-sustenance. I'm changing it back to it's prior state, and I'd advise you not to violate 1RV, lest we have to call Admins into the situation. If a general majority of the contributing community feels it should be changed to 3 Hammer Mastery, it will be done so. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2">cedave <small color="#AA226D">(contributions_buildpage)  18:29, 27 May 2008 (EDT)
 * WRONG :D It was voted great with nthe +3 in hammer marstery, i worte the article and cleaned it up after Kumpeed(??). Squirrel 13:30, 28 May 2008 (EDT)
 * You mean Klumpeet. ~ <font color="#444">ĐONT <font color="#444">* <font color="#444">TALK  13:32, 28 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Death's charge is hardly used for healing, anyway. 3 hammer > 3 shadow arts for more damage. <font color="#000">&not; Klump eet  17:55 {GMT} 28-05-<font face="Times">MMVIII

9 hammer
is what good people run it with. You gain the base dmg from a hammer and then another +13(?) from Backbreaker, it does more damage that way. Smurf Ohai 13:53, 28 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Yes, i have heard so. I haven't tested it though. Surely we want to change that, if it's true. Post some screen shots please. Squirrel 14:14, 28 May 2008 (EDT)
 * errrr.. don't see how I could make a screenshot to prove this. It's just true that it deals bigger dommages this way ;) Smurf Ohai 14:16, 28 May 2008 (EDT)
 * at the very most that smack will do 50 damage, and that's on critical.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  14:42, 28 May 2008 (EDT)
 * At the very least, it's more than the current version, more damage = improvement, amirite? Smurf Ohai 14:49, 28 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Smurf, Marster of damage. d: Squirrel 14:45, 28 May 2008 (EDT)
 * As long as the combo is still completeable (Duh), and you can get your energy back before twisting recharges, I see no problem in it.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  14:50, 28 May 2008 (EDT)
 * How do you run out of energy with this?;s Smurf Ohai 14:52, 28 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Spirit Shackles + Wither + Ether Lord + Malice + Energy Surge + Energy Burn + High energy staff of course--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  14:57, 28 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Should've known, it's meta duh. Smurf Ohai 14:59, 28 May 2008 (EDT)
 * No point running it with 9 hammer, I'm pretty sure you get more dmg out of the 14 dagger. [[Image:mightymouse.gif|25px]] moush 22:29, 31 May 2008 (EDT)
 * You keep 14 dagger... Just drop crit to 9+1. You dont need high crit cuz you dont need the energy, and the base damage from hammer does more than dagger crits. &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Rawr. 18:55, 14 June 2008 (EDT)

Warrior's Cunning
Yes, it has a ridiculously obscene recharge, but at 0 Strength, it would last long enough to spike down an enemy regardless of enchantments or stances. <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2">cedave <small color="#AA226D">(contributions_buildpage)  15:10, 30 May 2008 (EDT)
 * You won't be able to get the entire spike.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  15:11, 30 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Has a looong recharge imo, better rigor Smurf Minions 15:12, 30 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Spike's at 5.75 seconds, so depending on game mechanics, seeing as I've never completely researched it, you might get the last attack in as it's ending, or after. Either way, it covers most of the chain. As for Rigor, I completely forgot that they included Triple Classing in the new update. Silly me. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2">cedave <small color="#AA226D">(contributions_buildpage)  16:07, 30 May 2008 (EDT)
 * They added teamates in the first update.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  17:40, 30 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Yeah, because you're always assured a Necro carrying Rigor Mortis when you go into RA. For sanity's sake, I'm talking it'd be a damn decent variant. If you can't figure that one out, please QQ to my talk page or uninstall and save the rest of us the hassle of explaining how skills and teams work. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2">cedave <small color="#AA226D">(contributions_buildpage)  02:59, 31 May 2008 (EDT)
 * It would be very useful, but on top of what they've said above, there isn't really a space to put it in except Death's Charge, which is really useful to avoid pre-prots. Add it to variants anyway, imo, becuase it is usable. <font color="#000">&not; Klump eet  07:06 {GMT} 31-05-<font face="Times">MMVIII
 * "cough**cough* Unless you're going into.. well, anything that isn't HB. Then again, you could probably run RA without a Rez Sig. You know, the way the "d00d i iz 1337"s do it.. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2">cedave <small color="#AA226D">(contributions_buildpage)  13:55, 31 May 2008 (EDT)

You can't finish the spike. :| <font color="#033361">Railin  03:37, 31 May 2008 (EDT)
 * 4 second KD to do the spike in, 5 second duration, why not?  &not;Klump  eet  07:39 {GMT} 31-05-<font face="Times">MMVIII
 * Because I'm pretty sure warrior's cunning is a stance. If not, I said nothing. [[Image:Railin-WoH.jpg‎|19px]] <font color="#033361">Railin 03:49, 31 May 2008 (EDT)
 * You said nothing, it's just a skill. &not; Klump  eet  07:55 {GMT} 31-05-<font face="Times">MMVIII
 * I think it might be 1 of 2, if not the only, Skill-type Skill for Warriors. If it wasn't for the god-damned 60 second recharge, it'd be a pretty nice skill. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2">cedave <small color="#AA226D">(contributions_buildpage)  13:55, 31 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Should decrease recharge to 20 for the skill to cope with sin or war spikes. God  box   13:57, 31 May 2008 (EDT)
 * It'd be a little imba then. "H'okay. So I'm gonna ignore your blocking stances and enchants for just 5 energy while I spike you. Hope you don't mind." [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2">cedave <small color="#AA226D">(contributions_buildpage)  14:25, 31 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Make it end on miss.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  14:31, 31 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Wishful thinking. If it had the same duration, cost 10e, and ended on miss, it might get a 20 second recharge. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2">cedave <small color="#AA226D">(contributions_buildpage)  14:46, 31 May 2008 (EDT)

Haha
A sin is using a hammer. Just wanted to say that.--<font color="99CCFF">R ELYK   <font color="CCCCFF">(Talk  | <font color="99CCFF"> Edits)  18:47, 31 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Orly? [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2">cedave <small color="#AA226D">(contributions_buildpage)  03:59, 1 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Your thumbs down is very appropriate. &not; Klump  eet  08:02 {GMT} 1-06-<font face="Times">MMVIII
 * I figure as much. Though, shouldn't that sort of comment be on my user page? >.> [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2">cedave <small color="#AA226D">(contributions_buildpage)  05:01, 1 June 2008 (EDT)

Was using this in RA and eventually TA. For those wanting ezmodepk, simply map your cancel to 3 and your weapon set of choice to 4, and the rest of the skills to 2 numbers higher (ex. skill 3 becomes bound to 5). 123456789 dead.
 * 9? Hax much?--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  05:52, 3 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Reading comprehension is good. --71.229 05:56, 3 June 2008 (EDT)

3 Hammer vs 3 Shadow Arts and Weapon Sets
With that first hit, you'll deal less than an extra 4 damage on average, which could be substituted for an slightly stronger heal (27 extra points which may not seem like much, but can still be a life saver). Personally, I would take the extra Shadow Arts and a Club of a Thousand Bears or a Wintergreen Hammer if I wanted to squeeze out that little more damage. If you've got Eye of the North, which I assume you would because you're using Falling Lotus Strike, that Club of a Thousand Bears shouldn't be too hard to get. Plus, you could take a Wintergreen Spear when you're building up adrenaline. I think it's a nice option, not essential to the build, but still worth mentioning in Notes or something. Finally, THIS BUILD ROCKS MY SOCKS, but I still need a little more practice with weapon swapping, or need to learn to bind keys. >.> -Mike 18:50, 14 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Or you could just make the breakpoint for Hammer by dropping Critical Strike... lol -Mike 18:54, 14 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I did that cuz thats what good people run. &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Rawr. 18:56, 14 June 2008 (EDT)
 * On another note: I'm not sure if RA is an appropriate tag, because without a Monk or Rit supporting you, you won't even gain enough adrenaline to use one Backbreaker. With some support, though, this is amazing. =P -Mike 22:52, 14 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I run 9 hammer aswell. Deals more damage. And about the 3 in shadow arts.. NO. :p It will cause the build to loose focus. About the RA tag, that goes for a lot of build. you won't get far with most builds without monks. I don't think that justifyes removing the tag, since this build performs quite well in RA. Squirrel 06:47, 15 June 2008 (EDT)
 * With no support, you're gonna get wiped hard. Anyone who sees a sin auto-attacking for more than three seconds should be ready to see a hammer come out of no where. If you're playing against a moderately attentive mesmer or ranger, you're probably fucked hard. Savage Shot does interrupt attack skills, and Clumsiness can be a real bitch. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2"> ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  14:30, 15 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Most of the time in RA, I don't even have the time to build up enough adrenaline to use Backbreaker once, sadly. This is an amazingly strong spike, but that's where its use ends. -Mike 14:32, 15 June 2008 (EDT)
 * tbh, that's why this wiki fails sometimes. Everyone here is hardcore ghey for good spikes, so when an awesome-sauce spike build comes along, they completely ignore any lack of self-heal or condition removal. Then again, you have to take into account that this wiki assumes optimal teammates and generally sub-optimal opponents. Occasionally builds get compared against optimal opponents, but this usually causes trashing shortly afterward. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2"> ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  17:58, 16 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Take into account, too, that I've been here forever, still use, and still love this wiki. Just because they fail at things on occasion or go gheyxcore for things doesn't mean they can't rock socks the rest of the time. ^_^ [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2"> ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  18:00, 16 June 2008 (EDT)

Tada
Over this last week I've actually seen this being used in RA. For the current Monk RA meta, this build falls short on every account. While I was monking, in a 7 minute battle, the assassin actually hit me with only 1 backbreaker and then was unable to complete his chain due to the fact that i still had guardian up. Every time he was about to use backbreaker, if i didnt already have guardian up, i'd just click disciplined stance, and block block block...So tada, this build has now been made useless without the aid of rigor mortis or a F***in mesmer.--71.67.243.230 17:58, 20 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Was a really bar assassin, sorry. &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Rawr. 17:59, 20 June 2008 (EDT)
 * (EC) Yeah, maybe you should have taught him how to Target Switch. With that way of thinking EVERY melee build is bad.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  18:00, 20 June 2008 (EDT)


 * Good job, after 2 years you've figured out how to counter assassins! &mdash;  Skakid  18:08, 20 June 2008 (EDT)
 * It must have been bad players. I've played this build and been able to get passed Balanced Stance, Shield Bash and Guardian on a single Monk's bar. It isn't too hard past Guardian+Disciplined Stance, either. Once you get used to the timing of Guardian, the spike is easier to guarantee. I've been able to take down Monks in teams with two Monks (or multiple support characters) as well as kill their allies before they can heal them. If it's a Mo/W, you can try to fake a spike (just attack with your hammer, or use one of your random dagger attack skills which won't actually hit lol) or start attacking the Monk with your hammer and use Backbreaker on one of his allies instead (best if they're adjacent, but you could always use Death's Charge). If things go wrong, but you managed to hit with Backbreaker, you can still complete a chain, just not your full one. I started with an RA group (a good group, though: I was with the usual WoH Mo/W, a Ride the Lightning Spiker, and a Magebane) and made it to 18 or 19 games (8 or 9 in TA, of course), I played against a couple groups with multiple support characters and won. -Mike 18:15, 20 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Exactly. You can poof to the monk, then walk over 2 steps to your real target as the monk stupid prots himself.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  19:17, 20 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Just curious. Why the shit does the build have 9 hammer mastery? Does that even make sense? [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2"> ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  22:53, 21 June 2008 (EDT)
 * So you can meet the requirement of your Hammer, and net another 20-40 dmg in your chain. -Mike 23:12, 21 June 2008 (EDT)

ridiculous
this is. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.235.130.39 (contribs).
 * But works. ~ <font color="#444">ĐONT <font color="#444">* <font color="#444">SYSOP  07:24, 7 July 2008 (EDT)
 * You can even complete your chain through Faintheartedness, although it isn't as awesome because your target has time to get up. ــмıкε  нaшк  09:47, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

HA
combo sins are very conditional they don't work in HA unless there combo is hard to stop like shattering assault this is a very fragile sin combo and is easily countered in HA Champion 15:44, 10 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Keep their monks busy with something else. --71.229 15:46, 10 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Champion you're a dumbass. Backbreaker sins work fine in HA, it's called shadow step->spike to avoid preprots--<font color=#C68E17>Golden [[image:Goldenstar.JPG|19px]]<font color=#C68E17>Star 16:04, 10 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Still not as powerful as some other frontline alternatives God  box    16:12, 10 July 2008 (EDT)
 * So i herd Wounding Strike iz gud? [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2"> ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  17:20, 10 July 2008 (EDT)

GoldenStar you're a dumbass. Backbreaker sins don't work in HA, it's called A 60AL frontline+Block,Prot,Interupts,Anit-KD,KD,Snares,Anti-melee Hexs Champion 10:32, 17 July 2008 (EDT)
 * 70 AL. Before the nerf, however, once you would get off Death's Charge, you'd probably get Backbreaker through because they wouldn't be fast enough to prot. ــмıкε  нaшк  10:57, 17 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Also, most of those counters are the envitable counters of any frontliner. Also, Backbreaker works great with SH eles, although I do agree I would bring a BB Warrior > Sin for HA. --[[Image:GoD Wario Sig.PNG]]<font color="Black"> * Wah <font color="DAA520">Wah  Wah! * 11:00, 17 July 2008 (EDT)

10/6/08 Update
You can just barely make it, even with the aftercast. I mean barely. Don't screw up at all. Lionfire 19:21, 10 July 2008 (EDT)
 * That's the shadow step, your chain is still the same, although the spike will be more predictable. ــмıкε  нaшк  19:30, 10 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Dash>Death's Charge imo <font color="#011000">IC <font color="#055000">YF <font color="#099000">IF <font color="#0CC000">T <font color="#099000">YF <font color="#055000">I <font color="#011000">VE  21:03, 10 July 2008 (EDT)
 * I'm with Fifty Five on this one. Might as well bring something you can use more often. Also, I get the feeling Lionfire was thinking you'd use Flail before Death's Charge, perhaps? The comment was a bit ambiguous. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2"> ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  09:53, 11 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Also Frenzy > Flail now (except RA) <font color="#011000">IC <font color="#055000">YF <font color="#099000">IF <font color="#0CC000">T <font color="#099000">YF <font color="#055000">I <font color="#011000">VE  11:12, 12 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Stop failing guys, .75 second aftercast is nothing. It might be more likely to be cought with a PS/SB but it requires awesome monking skills.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 11:14, 12 July 2008 (EDT)
 * I fail for thinking that the aftercast somehow effected the chain. Don't know what I was thinking. Lionfire 13:26, 12 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Dash is still better. GG. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2"> ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  00:46, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

Don't get me wrong this build works very well, but when i played it in RA, beetween getting blinded, getting killed cause im just attacking around with a spear/daggers trying to get charged up and everyone moving around and getting hexed and everything else that can possibly happen, its just a nuisance to charge. While everyone else in the group is doing something and your getting killed, your useless for an arguably meaningful amount of time. The build works great once everything is charged because by the time your done with the bar BB is already half charged, but the initial charge is just too hard, atleast in ab where the conditions are really unpredictable. I personally think the RA tag should be taken down. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.191.93.32 (contribs).
 * I have to agree. Tried it in RA and faced the same problems. ~ <font color="#444">ĐONT <font color="#444">* <font color="#444">SYSOP   14:24, 14 July 2008 (EDT)

Assassins Remedy instead of Deaths Charge maybe? Blind kind sir? Nty maddame! Kongtorp 14:47, 14 July 2008 (EDT)
 * The only problem with AR is that it only takes effect when you use attack skills. It's great once you've got the bar charged, but when auto-attacking and with no skills to use, you're dead in the water. You still have to get the adrenline, first. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2"> ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  17:47, 14 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Yes, but what does that have to do with it? Death's Charge has no protection vs. blind this makes blind useless during the spikes. Kongtorp 17:59, 14 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Problem being that you can't spike much if you can't get adrenaline first. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2"> ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  18:45, 14 July 2008 (EDT)
 * And why can't you get adrenaline? Kongtorp 19:10, 14 July 2008 (EDT)
 * CAUSE YOUR FUCKING BLIND!!!!!! (And if you didn't know, Sin's Remedy ONLY triggers on attack skills thus you can't remove the blind with it).  Frosty  No U!  19:16, 14 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Who is saying you are blind the whole time? You got at least one monk, he should have condition removal. And yes I know that it only triggers one Attack SKILLS. Assassins Remedy does so that you can use the whole chain without worrying about blind. And last time I checked Deaths Charge never removes any conditions. Kongtorp 19:32, 14 July 2008 (EDT)
 * IF you miss with an attack it still removes a condition, including if you use a dual attack without meeting the requirements. Thus, it can remove conditions outside of a chain.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  19:34, 14 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Anyway, last time I heard, Guild Wars was a team game. Unless you're doing RA, you have your friendly friends to help. --[[Image:GoD Wario Sig.PNG]]<font color="Black"> * Wah <font color="DAA520">Wah  Wah! * 19:36, 14 July 2008 (EDT)
 * My point exactly. Leave condition removal to the monks. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2"> ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  21:09, 14 July 2008 (EDT)
 * AR is a fine variant. Removing blind on the attack skill instead of wasting monks already thin energy (this is HB) on removal and the chance of reapplial. Plus the fact that if you get blind during the chain, gl remove in time. &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Rawr. 21:29, 14 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Well, 'course. The entire point was you don't get rid of a Shadow Step for it. That's all. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2"> ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  21:49, 14 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Shadow stepps are meh now, the whole surprise attack thing is gone with the aftercast. You might as well run up to you'r foe than waste a skill on it. Kongtorp 21:53, 14 July 2008 (EDT)


 * Shadow Fang is now a much better shadow step. It not onyl does not have any aftercast, but it gets you out of the battle after your target falls. I'd suggest adding it into the bar or at least into variants. Life Guardian 02:16, 16 July 2008 (EDT)
 * The recharge is too long, though. I love Shadow Fang, but it only really works if you bring Deadly Paradox or Assassin's Promise (or something else to mitigate the long recharge.) ــмıкε  нaшк  08:50, 16 July 2008 (EDT)
 * And Deadly Paradox isn't realy what you want on a bar that has a 10 adr skill. [[Image:Beta Rotting Flesh.jpg|17px]]<font color=Green>Kongtorp 08:54, 16 July 2008 (EDT)

Exactly, so no Shadow Fang. Death's Charge is still bad, and it might be better to use Dash (or the other variants) on the main bar. If playing RA, I'd strongly suggest a self-heal such as Shadow Refuge, which is probably the only worthwhile one with such low Shadow Arts. ــмıкε нaшк  09:18, 16 July 2008 (EDT)

FLS or FSS
I think FLS should go first. You cover DW w/ FSS, and its only 20nrg, which isn't really a problem... 15:16, 18 July 2008 (EDT)
 * You probably wouldn't miss that extra second or two of degen, so I'd say yes. ــмıкε  нaшк  15:20, 18 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Killing the foe in the spike > giving him more problems removing DW. But if the poison doesn't matter then why not. [[Image:Beta Rotting Flesh.jpg|17px]]<font color=Green>Kongtorp 17:53, 18 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Its only like 6dmg anyways lol.  17:54, 18 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Woot?! 6dmg is like moar dmg than vampiric mod! [[Image:Beta Rotting Flesh.jpg|17px]]<font color=Green>Kongtorp 18:08, 18 July 2008 (EDT)
 * It's actually close to 15 damage. But that's still relatively negligible overall, I'd imagine. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2"> ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  15:18, 20 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Spider after twisting. -- The proceeding Cute McPiplup was added by Rawr. 17:08, 18 August 2008 (EDT)

new subject
i feel sorry for the people who actually think this is a good build...

let me put it this way: the best way to use this build is to use frenzy or flurry or something in the optional slot, because by the time you build up 10 adrenaline without those skills (using a furious spear / daggers, still), most of your team will have died, but yeah you'll be able to kill like one guy if your spike gets through. (mediocre/bad (at least for RA, HA, and TA - although it has some potential for HB)).
 * I feel sorry for people who throw tantrums on wikis. Also, you're doing it wrong if most of your team is dead by the time you can charge 10 adrenaline with a spear and daggers. - PANIC!  [[Image:Panic_sig4.png|50px|18px]] <font color="#D70000"> sexiness!  04:36, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
 * yeah, lol, i must be charging adrenaline the wrong way! ><  that explains it!  thanks for the excellent point. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.5.240.195 (contribs).
 * No problem. Keep trying and someday maybe you'll manage to use one of the easiest professions on GW. - PANIC!  [[Image:Panic_sig4.png|50px|18px]] <font color="#D70000"> sexiness!  05:00, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
 * The only place I could see this being an issue is RA, where your teammates are going to fail, more than likely. Other that that, if you have an organized team, there's no reason you wouldn't be able to successfully pull off your spike multiple times. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2"> ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  09:34, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
 * If you get a decent Monk (which can be pretty rare XD) this build will roll most other teams. This build doesn't do well without support because it lacks utility (and self healing, although Death's Charge has saved me a couple of times.) If you can't manage to gain adrenaline fast enough in RA, don't run it in RA. It's just that simple. ــмıкε  нaшк  10:51, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
 * I feel sorry for that guy that can't charge adrenaline...--Itokaru
 * ^ sounds like advertisement for Viagra. Well, that guy must have been getting unlucky streaks in RA, because Backbreaker Sins are shut down very easily since they're pretty much defenseless. My suggestion: don't play BB Sins, or anything that needs bucketloads of adrenaline build-up, in RA. ــмıкε  нaшк  16:27, 28 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Referring to Panic's comment about how Assassins are one of the easiest professions to play, I must disagree. Sure all you really have to do to play them is hit keys 1-6 to spike, but you can't simply spike whenever you desire. You have to watch when certain spells such as Guardian or Aegis are cast and if the opponent has used blocking stances. You must find the perfect opening to land a spike and make it have any effect, a mis-timed spike might as well not be attempted at all. Shinomori 14:41, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
 * ASSASSIN'S ARE FUCKING EASY TO PLAY. It's not hard to see "Oh he's not protted" and then just spike. It takes no strategy, just see no big yellow arrow and spike spike spike. --[[Image:GoD Wario Sig.PNG]]<font color="Black"> * Wah <font color="DAA520">Wah  Wah! * 14:43, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
 * A sin used wisely takes practice.  —Ska Kid [[Image:Skakidasaur.gif|19px]] 14:48, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Pretty much what SkaKid said...that's why you rarely see them used in High-end PvP. No one can be bothered enough to properly learn how to use an Assassin. Shinomori 22:26, 2 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Well no that's wrong.  —Ska Kid [[Image:Skakidasaur.gif|19px]] 22:29, 2 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Skapwned--<font color=#C68E17>Golden [[image:Goldenstar.JPG|19px]]<font color=#C68E17>Star 22:30, 2 August 2008 (EDT)

Why the hell
Does this have an RA tag? It's an HA/HB build that can maybe work in TA. This is terrible in RA for the same reasons the SP sin fell out of use in RA, you get one spike in then you die, and that's if the other team doesn't go OMGZ ITZ A SIN BLOWITUPBLOWITUPBLOWITUP!!!~!Q1`1~!!!! So yeah, gonna take the RA tag off if no one objects.--<font color=#C68E17>Golden <font color=#C68E17>Star 14:47, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Cos everything works in RA. Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] (<font color="Black">contributions  * sandbox ) 14:47, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Like 55 monks --74.61.209.219 14:49, 1 August 2008 (EDT)
 * are you mad? This is the only build I play in RA, it owns there. [[Image:Railin-WoH.jpg‎|19px]] <font color="#033361">Railin 00:19, 2 August 2008 (EDT)
 * lol goldenstar --71.229 00:47, 2 August 2008 (EDT)

Exploit
To me this just reeks of an exploit. Don't get me wrong, I'm not raging about how imba it is or anything or how I demand it be nerfed. Something just seems...wrong about this. Like it's abusing the cancel action key to shorten weapon the time from knocking to swapping which doesn't seem like something intended by the programmers or even logical. Again, not raging, just curious what everyone's thoughts are and whether or not you think it'll get the bat next patch.ComfortOsprey 23:03, 2 August 2008 (EDT)
 * I doubt it, it's not much more difficult to counter than an SP sin--<font color=#C68E17>Golden [[image:Goldenstar.JPG|19px]]<font color=#C68E17>Star 23:05, 2 August 2008 (EDT)
 * I'm willing to bet only 3/10 players can pull this off consistently and efficiently. This is of course taking into account that first 5/10 who don't even realize how this build is supposed to work because, and I quote, "you dumb noob, how r you gonna use backbreaker with ur daagers?". Not to mention, at least 1 out of those aforementioned 3 are probably using macros, like myself. cba to play GW like I play GunZ, tbh. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2"> ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  15:44, 3 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Heh, you just need to be quick with your fingers (not really, though). Just practice against some NPCs in the Aisle of the Nameless (mostly the Master of Damage) and you'll get it in a couple minutes. I remember playing a Backbreaker Sin against a Backbreaker Sin in RA or TA, and I lol'd when he spiked me, but didn't switch weapons fast enough and I spiked him back and killed him. XD ــмıкε  нaшк  13:17, 4 August 2008 (EDT)
 * That's why I just use my no-fail macro, tbh. GunZ is enough key-mashing and epilepsy-inducing play for me. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2"> ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  14:16, 4 August 2008 (EDT)

Skakid's changes
"FGJ!" is great (and also means this is workable for AB, but still not very good) but why take Flurry over Flail? Sure, you'll build up adrenaline a little bit faster, but it only takes 4 hits (2 with "FGJ!") to charge Flail so that you can use it to build adrenaline faster. I don't think the energy cost and 25% of base damage lost is worth it, tbh. ــмıкε нaшк  23:45, 6 August 2008 (EDT)
 * We'll also have to fix up the usage and variants after the changes are final. ــмıкε  нaшк  23:46, 6 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Probably for the faster BB, and 25% off 13 average base damage is piffle.
 * Now I'm going to stop acting like I know what I'm talking about and let someone who's actually played the build explain/not explain. --71.229.253.172 00:09, 7 August 2008 (EDT)


 * So you can hit targets that are moving at an increased attack speed.  —Ska Kid [[Image:Skakidasaur.gif|19px]] 00:11, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * (ec) You're supposed to build up adrenaline with the Spear anyway. If we hadn't been worried about that little extra damage, we wouldn't be running Hammer Mastery, Vampiric Mods or Strength and Honor/Dance with Death or have moved Falling Spider before Falling Lotus Strike for moar degen. Especially if you take "FGJ!", Flail is better. I have run the build, but it doesn't really make a difference if you have or haven't, tbh, as long as you know how and that it works. ــмıкε  нaшк  00:14, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * I prefer to build with daggers, to push bars below 90%. With SoH, flurrydaggers becomes even better.  —Ska Kid [[Image:Skakidasaur.gif|19px]] 00:16, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Also, building melee-style means you can pull out prots and pretend to spike, such as by taking a hammer out, waiting for a guardian/stance, and switching targets.  —Ska Kid [[Image:Skakidasaur.gif|19px]] 00:31, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * FGJ is nice but I prefer dash in the main bar. Not having a speedboost hurts. [[Image:Railin-WoH.jpg‎|19px]] <font color="#033361">Railin 01:04, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * You have a 4-second KD. Take your spear out if you're having trouble charging, tbh. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2"> ツ cedave  (contributions☆buildpage)  04:13, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Chasing someone that's kiting for 20 seconds because you can't hit with your 4-second KD sucks. A lot. FGJ is nice but I wouldn't trade it for my Dash. I tried and switched back right after. [[Image:Railin-WoH.jpg‎|19px]] <font color="#033361">Railin  08:49, 7 August 2008 (EDT)

Flail > Flurry
Idk havent tried Flurry but i think Flail is a absolute best option. 25% Less Damage hurts, altough i suppose you can spikke moar but i've never had Adrenalline Problems whit this :/ So Flail ftw. Also if the target is running use a f*** bow or spear -.- or a wand oO. Btw i almost get the adrenalline i need whenever the spikke is recharged :/ Also since it can kill in one spikke Dash > "FGJ!" after nerf it isnt that 00.1 over dash tbh :/ &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Massive (contribs).
 * Flurry doesn't take a bit of adrenaline away TBH. And Flurry is for a more constant stream of adrenaline. You can build up Backbreaker insanely fast with "FGJ!", Flurry, and double strikes. Anyway, you can always ask Smurf. --[[Image:GoD Wario Sig.PNG]]<font color="Black"> * Wah <font color="DAA520">Wah  Wah! * 09:19, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * If you're already using "FGJ!", Flail charges in two hits, anyway, so there really isn't much point in taking Flurry. "FGJ!" isn't even necessary, because once you go through your chain once, BB is almost completely recharged, anyway, but "FGJ!" would be a life-saver in RA if you haven't a Monk with you. With Flurry, you'd probably lose ~6 damage per hit, which is 36 damage in total because you have 6 hits during your dagger combo. Strength of Honor would make up for it, and then some, but this spike is supposed to kill without any outside buffs. ــмıкε  нaшк  10:01, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * I haven't played this in a while, so correct me if I'm wrong, but if you use flail, then you have to use it after the BB otherwise you have to activate it, auto, then chain and I think it runs out before the end of the chain that way. With Flurry, I think you can activate it just before BB and then get your entire chain off. - [[Image:Panic_sig5.png]] 10:05, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * It isn't really considered a spike until the first hit is made, and you're also taking 25% damage off of a Hammer attack. It depends what you prefer; being less predictable or having a stronger spike. ــмıкε  нaшк  10:16, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * huh? I'll reword that: Flail and Flurry both last 5 seconds. With Flail, you have to activate it after the hammer attack because if you do it before BB then you need to autoattack to build 1 adren before you can use the whole chain. But if you do that, then your IAS runs out before the chain finishes. If you use Flurry, then you can use it just before BB and then your entire chain has an IAS behind it. Sure you lose 25% damage from the BB, but the +12 damage from BB offsets that. - [[Image:Panic_sig5.png]] 10:25, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * I understand what you meant. I did tests with the Flurry->BB->... chain and I average 490 damage per chain, and out of 23 tries, I only had one 5 second kill, three 6 second kills and then a bunch of 7-10 second kills. On average, kills against the Master of Damage took 7.6 seconds, and that's with an auto-attack after every chain (sometimes you'd get a lucky Double Strike).
 * With the BB->Flail build, I probably averaged about 530 damage per spike (with one auto-attack at the end) and in 18 attempts, I had two 4 second kills. On average, my spikes took 5.4 seconds. This spike was meant to kill casters at full health (600+ health), and by using Flurry, you have to soften them first. As I've been emphasizing on: if you're using "FGJ!", take Flail because it only takes 6 attacks (if you activate Flail once). With a Spear, that's only 7 seconds of auto-attacking, but you'd shave off 2 seconds if you use Flurry (although it definitely isn't worth it, because you also add 2 seconds to your spike). With Daggers and Flurry+"FGJ!", it would take 3.4 seconds to build up for BB, but with Flail+"FGJ!", it would take 4 seconds.
 * So, for your spike, Flail>Flurry. ــмıкε  нaшк  10:56, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Do those damage figures include the -100 from deep wound or the -30 from vampiric daggers? - [[Image:Panic_sig5.png]] 11:03, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * They include Vampiric Daggers, but just add 100 to all of the spikes, because I based myself off of what the Master of Damage said. The Master of Damage includes DW in the spike time and Vampiric Daggers as damage, so it doesn't change much, because you're still losing 40 damage per spike. That translates into a couple extra auto-attacks to finish off your target, making a 5.4 second spike a 7.6 second spike. The averages for spike damage were guessed, though, so the Flurry version probably deals even less than 490 per spike, but for the spike to kill the Master of Damage, I counted the amount of time for each spike and found the average. You won't be able to get clean kills with Flurry, because you'll need your target to have lost ~30 health before your spike (which isn't much, but it still sucks). ــмıкε  нaшк  11:11, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * None of the spikes include the time it takes for BB to hit, however, which would be 1.17 seconds with Flurry, and 1.75 with Flail (which means that the Flail spike is 1.5 seconds faster). ــмıкε  нaшк  11:14, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * "Vamp: Yes, DW: No." would have sufficed. I thought that with flurry there's still enough damage to kill them with BB + Sin Chain. If so then flurry was better because it would shave that .6 seconds off the BB attack, where as Flail wouldn't. If you're saying flurry doesn't have the damage then you'll have to argue the change with Ska. - [[Image:Panic_sig5.png]] 11:22, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Yes, it shaves .6 off of the first attack, but it takes 10 damage off of it, too, and still adds 2 seconds to the rest of your spike (because you can't kill with just the chain). ــмıкε  нaшк  11:27, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * I thought that with flurry there's still enough damage to kill them with BB + Sin Chain. If so then flurry was better ... If you're saying flurry doesn't have the damage then you'll have to argue the change with Ska. - [[Image:Panic_sig5.png]] 11:31, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * I find it funny how you guys sit on wiki all day and argue about a build that was perfect with it's first publication. In other words, WHY DO YOU CARE?!Shinomori 21:50, 9 August 2008 (EDT)

Because Flail>Flurry. lol ــмıкε  нaшк  21:53, 9 August 2008 (EDT)
 * No, Flurry > flail. Being able to IAS to pressure (yes you can pressure with daggers in HB against hero mo) and gain adren faster outside the chain is good. It also means you generally have enough adren to do full spike / half spike / full spike / half spike etc etc, while with flail not. &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Rawr. 21:56, 9 August 2008 (EDT)
 * You deal less damage, meaning you won't get clean kills against a foe with 600+ health. Having "FGJ!" also means that Flail charges in two hits, anyway, so Flurry doesn't help much for building adrenaline, and if you're playing HB, just take Frenzy+Dash like most HB Sin builds. This whole build was about squeezing out as much damage in the spike as possible, and Flurry means you're taking a step back. ــмıкε  нaшк  22:06, 9 August 2008 (EDT)
 * noob [[Image:Railin-WoH.jpg‎|19px]] <font color="#033361">Railin 02:43, 10 August 2008 (EDT)

frenzy. --<font color="Black">Readem 03:05, 10 August 2008 (EDT)
 * I normally run frenzy, but if you're going cancel-less then flurry is the best. It takes 25% off the non bonus damage, so you actually end up doing like 20 dmg less altogether, you can still easily kill 660 hp. &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Rawr. 10:01, 10 August 2008 (EDT)
 * In 7 seconds instead of 5. Frenzy, if you're smart with it, is actually the best IAS for this build (and most builds), but I wouldn't run it in the arenas because you'll be dead in a second if you do (especially TA). With "FGJ!" and Dash, do you think this is viable for AB? ــмıкε  нaшк  10:05, 10 August 2008 (EDT)
 * It kills in exactly the same amount of time lulz, with both IAS its either gonna kill or its not. &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Rawr. 10:08, 10 August 2008 (EDT)
 * It should kill in the same amount of time, but to finish off a squishy that was at 600+ health, you need to throw in a couple extra auto-attacks. With Flurry, it basically isn't going to kill unless your target was softened or you have Strength of Honor on you. I tested it quite a bit, and Flurry means a 590 dmg spike and Flail/Frenzy means a 630 dmg spike (DW included for both). What made this so imba was that you could kill before your target got up (and one extra auto-attack usually finished them off if they weren't protted/healed), with Flurry, that isn't going to happen nearly as often. ــмıкε  нaшк  10:18, 10 August 2008 (EDT)
 * It doesn't matter, they have SH on them and you have SoH on you all the time anyway, it will either kill or not kill. The fact is this one has utility. &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Rawr. 10:19, 10 August 2008 (EDT)

If you use frenzy smart, and your enemy plays smart, you will never be able to use frenzy / your spike. <font color="#033361">Railin 11:00, 10 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Frankly thats dumb and 100% wrong. Your enemy is not playing smart AT ALL by constantly linebacking you lulz, and other heroes have no domages without sin or you just camp SoR on you against r/ps and shit lol. &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Rawr. 11:02, 10 August 2008 (EDT)
 * The Flail BB Sin can kill without SoH, tbh. Frenzy for HB, Flail for general RA, TA and HA, and Flurry if you aren't using "FGJ!" and have SoH on you. Flurry's use is too specific to have on the main bar, imo. ــмıкε  нaшк  11:19, 10 August 2008 (EDT)

ra tag
should this really be in ra, everytime i try to gain adreneline (by spear and daggers) i get ganked. Unless im real lucky to get a monk or something i always die before i get my chian off :( <font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  17:06, 19 August 2008 (EDT)
 * I gain adrenaline quite easily. 5 hits with a spear, less if you get a double adrenaline proc. That's not much. -- ιtокагџ ιѕ   ѕяѕ  вѕлѕ,   мал [[Image:ItokaruSignature.jpg|18px]] 17:17, 19 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Still, unless you get support on your team (which has been rare for me lately), you wouldn't likely be able to get off one chain. >.> ــмıкε  нaшк  17:27, 19 August 2008 (EDT)