User talk:Ekko/Expertise/Archive1

You're defending Rangers with Daggers with math? /facepalm  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ  16:52, 1 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Lol, this article is so failsome. /facepalm --  Super Igor   *ninja!!*  16:53, 1 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Why so?[[Image:EkkoWord.jpg|50x19px]]Ekko (Brother  Starr)  16:53, 1 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Expertise doesn't gain energy, just lowers the cost. --Guild of Deals * Wah Wah  Wah! * 16:54, 1 June 2008 (EDT)

Rangers with daggers aren't unfavoured because of the energy-management, fyi.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ  16:55, 1 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Expertise doesnt give energy back, It doesnt gain you energy either. (EC) --  Super Igor    *ninja!!*  16:56, 1 June 2008 (EDT)

I know expertise doesn't give energy back. Using less energy is a form of energy management. Has anyone read the proof? Or is this just backlash against R/A's. @GoD: Why are they unfavored, then? Ekko (Brother  Starr)  17:03, 1 June 2008 (EDT)


 * Because there's no reason to run a R/A over an A/any. Assassin primaries have runes and the ability to just use better chains (things like Deadly Arts and such, which R/A's don't use). Also, it you're spamming attacks on a Ranger, you WILL run out of energy. It may take a while, but you will. --Guild of Deals * Wah Wah  Wah! * 17:06, 1 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Not to mention, R/A's can't use any decent elite.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 17:08, 1 June 2008 (EDT)
 * R/As are bad because sins are way better, also, have double strikes in mind and how much enrgy they can give back. And no ranting, GoD > Ekko. :P --  Super Igor   *ninja!!*  17:09, 1 June 2008 (EDT)
 * But there is a reason: Better energy management, and acess to stances like Escape or Lightning Reflexes. R/A's can use any non-Critical Strikes elite than an A/R can.  And, nothing stops an R/A from using deadly arts skills, especially as many of them are touch skills, and thus cost less.  Sure, you'll run out of energy on a ranger, but it'll take longer than with a sin. [[Image:EkkoWord.jpg|50x19px]]Ekko  (Brother  Starr)  21:07, 1 June 2008 (EDT)

Math
hurts my head, don't do it again! :3 --  Sazzy  ( talk ) 18:18, 1 June 2008 (EDT)
 * yes that too, dont phail Ekko. :3 --  Super Igor   *ninja!!*  18:21, 1 June 2008 (EDT)
 * In a game like Guild Wars, nothing can really be proven without math. I'm sorry to tell you this. [[Image:EkkoWord.jpg|50x19px]]Ekko  (Brother  Starr)  21:07, 1 June 2008 (EDT)
 * What happened to Critical Eye? and Way of the Master (if using non-daggers)? -Mike 21:10, 1 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Those are particular skills, and thus aren't considered into my proof. I will likely write ones factoring those in, but for now, we just base it on the attributes themselves. [[Image:EkkoWord.jpg|50x19px]]<font color="Black">Ekko  <font color="Black">(Brother  <font color="Black">Starr)  21:31, 1 June 2008 (EDT)
 * You can't quite compare Critical Strikes with Expertise anyway, because Sins rely on their attacks hitting (and crits triggering), while Rangers rely on their already less than usual energy regeneration. Critical Strikes can assure net gains in energy, while Expertise only slows down the loss. Try playing a Moebius Blossom Sin as a Ranger primary. Since you lose Critical Strikes (Critical Eye and Critical Strike, as well), you'll find yourself auto-attacking pretty often to regain energy (through Zealous Daggers, of course). Plus, having your secondary open means you can take Conjures, Strength of Honor or other utilities you might lose by going R/A. It's basically the same thing as trying to play a W/P with a Spear or P/W with a Warrior weapon. -Mike 21:41, 1 June 2008 (EDT)
 * How about this for proof? Rangers with daggers suck more than sins. Who even cares about the energy. It's not at ALL about the energy. It's a nice calculation you made, and congrats for doing so, but it's not at all relevant, cause not using much energy does not make something good. Also, mike, there is no way a MS/DB ranger would run out of energy, esp not with zealous daggers. Even at just 13 expertise, which most likely you'll even have 14 attribute points spent in with headgear and all, one round of MS/DB would cost 4 energy. Because of double strike on DB you'll get 3 energy back with the zealous daggers and you'll have 2 pips to regain that 1 energy. Very FUCKING hard to run out of energy if you ask me, so I have no clue what you are doing wrong. For that matter, a normal MS/DB sin doesn't need crit strike nor crit eye imho. (well at least I don't when I play it) 3 energy per crit hit, which at 13 crit you'll have plenty of, is enough to keep going tbh, esp since you have 4 pips of regen. That being said, leave those daggers at home ranger boy :3 ! --[[Image:SazSigPic.jpg|19px]]  Sazzy  ( talk ) 21:53, 1 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I can't imagine playing MS/DB without Critical Eye/Strike because you'd have to stop to auto-attack pretty often. In the end, it's all about the synergies. -Mike 21:59, 1 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I played it a long time before ever using crit eye tbh. That one energy helps but it isn't a life saver --[[Image:SazSigPic.jpg|19px]]  Sazzy  ( talk ) 22:06, 1 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I'm talking about the attribute "Critical Strikes" not the dual attack "Critical Strike." This is simply a comparison of similar primary attributes.  Saz, you seem to be both supporting R/A's (with your MS/DB ranger) and saying they suck in one fell swoop.  I honestly don't care about your personal opinions, I care about making sure my math is sound in the proof.  If you people have objections to how I did my math, let me know, because I can screw things up (I did with my last proof). [[Image:EkkoWord.jpg|50x19px]]<font color="Black">Ekko  <font color="Black">(Brother  <font color="Black">Starr)  22:17, 1 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I'm not supporting anything, I even declared in my explanation to Mike that MS/DB rangers have awesome energy but that having energy does not make a build good. And tbh, I don't care about your math, I care about personal opinions. --[[Image:SazSigPic.jpg|19px]]  Sazzy  ( talk ) 06:12, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Oh damn stop beig stupid guise, I mean expertise DOES NOT GIVE YOU ENRGY BACK, only reduces the coss of those skills, thats all, lets immagine you have no enrgy regen, you reduce enrgy costs but your enrgy would still go to 0 in no time as you have no way of managing your enrgy whilke assassin in same situation would regain his enrgy in no time with crit strikes, even with zealeus daggers assasin would regain much more energy, can expertise gain you 6-10 energy on hit? no, so stfu and stop saying that R/As are any good, they are not, their skills are underpowered and they cant use any elite skil. Also, Assassin are aweasum. :p --  Super Igor   *ninja!!*  08:31, 2 June 2008 (EDT)

There skills are THE SAME AS THE ASSASSINS (+Usually an expertise stance or two). They can use any elite an assassin can (save for Critical Strike, etc). R/A's also have better acess to preparations (Apply Poison, Expert's Dexterity [which might actually be good]), and blocking/IAS stances (Lightning Reflexes says hi). R/A's are also free of having to take Critical Eye, etc (something that limits an assassin) for energy management.

Math fail
You didn't take into account the facts that Redo all your maths that no one even cares about plx. - 04:56, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * 1) The two classes have a different rate of energy regeneration
 * 2) No one runs 16 expertise or 16 critical strikes because superior runes are bad
 * 3) Rangers can't have 15 in dagger mastery
 * 4) Double strikes
 * Don't bother tbh. Expertise @ 13 makes attack skills cheaper than Crit Strikes @ 13. Assume you're using 5e skills. Ranger will pay 2 energy for those skills 100% of the time. An assassin will pay 2 energy something like 33% of the time. Throw in critical eye and that means they pay 1 energy like 43% of the time. But y'know what? That's actually plenty when you have 4 pips of energy regen. The reason Dagger Rangers suck is because the great energy management from Expertise is unnecessary, they do less damage than an assassin, and there's a lot better things you can be doing with a ranger. Magebane, Burning Arrow, Cripshot, and even Thumper or Escape Scythe come immediately to mind. - PANIC!  [[Image:Panic_sig4.png|50px|18px]] <font color="#D70000"> sexiness!  06:28, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Would have been fun to see him work it all out tbh :< Oh and remember, dual attacks hit twice so critical strikes becomes twice as efficient for any dual attacks and assassins regain energy faster from autoattacking which expertise doesn't affect. The major point is that unless you are using an expertise skill critical strikes with 4 pips is approximately equivalent to expertise with 3 pips so there is no point as you are swapping one form of energy management for another at the cost of domoges. The only expertise skill that seems like it has something to offer is Expert's Dexterity, but that have been tried and the PvX community doesn't like the result. You could also try block-whoring, but realistically block whoring isn't very good and you would be better off using a scythe for more domoges. - 06:40, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * You all seem to be missing the point of maths. It's only practical use is to confuse Fish as much as possible. Or to work out the trajectory of cumshots if you're Skakid. --[[Image:Ibreaktoilets_Signature.jpg|User:Ibreaktoilets|20px]]<font color="Black">Tab  <font color="Black">Moo  06:45, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Quick Maths for Misery: 13Exp R/A and 13 Crit A/any perform the GFS>WS>DB chain 25 times for a total of 100 hits(25x[1+1+2hits]). The ranger pays 25*3skills*2energy = 150 energy. The assassin pays 25*3skills*5energy = 375 energy. The assassin, however, hits 40(being generous here) critical strikes for a total of 120 energy gain. So his net energy spend is 255. Rangers gain 1 energy every second and the chain takes like 3.99 seconds to perform, so he gains 100 energy from natural regen and he's spent 50. The assassin gains 4 energy every 3 seconds, so he gets about 133 energy from natural regen, so he's spent 122 energy in total. Everyone go home now. - PANIC!  [[Image:Panic_sig4.png|50px|18px]] <font color="#D70000"> sexiness!  06:54, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * You are boring Panic. I will be a jerk and say oh look, add in critical eye, 100 more energy gained, ASSASSIN WINS! - 06:58, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I think the only real answer is that dervs with daggers supported by a smute bitch have the most energy. --[[Image:Ibreaktoilets_Signature.jpg|User:Ibreaktoilets|20px]]<font color="Black">Tab  <font color="Black">Moo  07:00, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Add in Crit Eye and we'll be really nice and say the sin gets 60 crit hits, gaining 4 energy each time and now he ends up spending like 2 net energy. Hurray Critical Eye! Fuck you, RangerSins! - PANIC!  [[Image:Panic_sig4.png|50px|18px]] <font color="#D70000"> sexiness!  07:05, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Auto-attacking, which is bound to happen between chains, is in favour of Critical Strikes. -Mike 07:21, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Thx for adding that, Captain Obvious xP And since when do you need to auto-attack when you're using a GFS>WS>DB chain? --[[Image:SazSigPic.jpg|19px]]  Sazzy  ( talk ) 07:50, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * If you use an IAS. - 07:54, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Aye and panic got somethig slightly wrong because with critical eye you would gan 5 energy per critical strike no? Assuming you have zealeus daggers. Anyway, assassins do more damage, gain more enrgy, look cooler, they win. :3 --  Super Igor   *ninja!!*  08:38, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * He assumed non-zealous for both. It makes the same amount of difference for both so it doesn't matter if you include it or not. - 08:40, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * An advantage people often miss about an R/A is that they can more easily take Dshot. In a one on one situation an R/A will Dshot an A/any's chain and win the internets. - 08:43, 2 June 2008 (EDT)

Sure, I didn't include energy regen, and that would be a valid point. I did not say what weapon it was (any one, it could be axes, for instance), and with attack skills, doublestrikes don't trigger (exeption:Dual attacks). The attributes can be proportionally lowered, so the basic equation stays the same. <font color="Black">Ekko <font color="Black">(Brother  <font color="Black">Starr)  09:30, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Please do not now say that rangers and assassins should use axes because they have better energy management than warriors. - 09:33, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * No, the axes are just a random weapon to prove that (for purposes of my math) any non-wand/staff weapon could be used. That would be silly, a lot of axe skills are adrenal, you don't need energy for that. [[Image:EkkoWord.jpg|50x19px]]<font color="Black">Ekko  <font color="Black">(Brother  <font color="Black">Starr)  09:36, 2 June 2008 (EDT)

In conclusion
Daggers are bad, dagger chains are bad, and narutards are bad. You should be shot for even considering running anything with daggers unless it is somehow exceptionally manly. That will be all.--<font color="Black">Tab  <font color="Black">Moo  08:42, 2 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Ah. The R/A hate is not because rangers shouldn't use daggers, it's because no one should use daggers.  I understand. [[Image:EkkoWord.jpg|50x19px]]<font color="Black">Ekko  <font color="Black">(Brother  <font color="Black">Starr)  09:30, 2 June 2008 (EDT)


 * UMMM. daggers pwn your socks.... so dont fail Dutchess of Rose  aka  lukejohnson  - talk - Contributions 12:52, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I think Tab was joking. I was, at least. [[Image:EkkoWord.jpg|50x19px]]<font color="Black">Ekko  <font color="Black">(Brother  <font color="Black">Starr)  14:15, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Actually I think he was pointing out that assassins are pretty much inferior to warriors. - 14:21, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 * In terms of? Most decent sin builds I've seen tend to deal more damage than your average Shock Axe or Cripslash warrior.  [[Image:EkkoWord.jpg|50x19px]]<font color="Black">Ekko  <font color="Black">(Brother  <font color="Black">Starr)  14:23, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Ayeee, luke is right, Daggers > Tab he must fail not. Also Rangers with daggers are bad Assassins are aweasum. --  Super Igor   *ninja!!*  14:29, 4 June 2008 (EDT)


 * @Ekko: but can your daggers pressure anyone? --84.24.206.123 14:30, 4 June 2008 (EDT)


 * Yep. Well Assassinjs can, MS/DB...Shattersin...with buffs like trengh of honor is aweasum. --  Super Igor   *ninja!!*  14:31, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 * A good warrior playing with skill will outpressure any assassin build and not die in the process. Assassins can do some other things pretty good to ok like gank and solo spike and stuff, but warriors do everything so, much love. - 14:39, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Warriors have Stances and high armor (which sins have Critical Defenses, but Enchantments are removed fairly often in PvP), and that's really all they've got over sins. Sins have better DPS (and spikes, tbh) because of their chains, but Warriors don't absolutely require exact chains for their attacks. So basically, Warriors are more universal in PvP because they don't need to rely on enchantments/spells for defense/utility, and they're much more flexible when it comes to attacking, but in PvE, moar domage is bettur, and a Warriors armor is irrelevant when "Save Yourselves!" is on your party. Finally, Shattering Assault and MS/DB rock my socks. -Mike 15:49, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Warr>Assa. Why do you think the meta was 3 Warrs and ZERO assas?  15:52, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 * The reason for playing Warriors over Sins and Dervishes is because they don't rely on so many buffs (which can be stripped), making them more universal, but not necessarily better at what they do (Sins are still usually the fastest spikers). So, yes, Warriors>Assassins in organized PvP (Shattering Assault is still very useful, though), but Assassins>Warriors (MS/DB>D-Slash, for example) in just about everything else (in terms of DPS, mostly). -Mike 16:07, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 * But Assas are either DPS or Spike, They can't do both.  16:08, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Sins > wars - on the basis that daggers can do massive spikes, and deadly arts can be amazing if used well, has survivability in shadow arts. They can also use scythes which umm... = pwnge. And they use them better than DERVS! The adaptability of a sin is massive, much liek a warrior, so you could say they are both excellent, and both better than dervs, but both excellent in different ways. but i lieks sins. so il lpersonally say they are better.  Dutchess of Rose  aka  lukejohnson  - talk - Contributions 16:13, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Ya, Sins are pretty much better with any Martial Weapon (there is a very sexy Spirit's Strength Scythe build here, though), but they rely a lot on spells and enchantments for their defense and offense, which can be a problem. I'm a sin lover, and a Narutard; my sin is even named after one of the characters. When I first started playing GW (Prophecies), I played as a Warrior, and kept thinking: why can't they dual wield swords? Besides, no one looks better than sins, when you're spiking someone, but I may be slightly biased, as well. =P -Mike 16:21, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Horray for talk pages abandoning the original topic! Woo! [[Image:EkkoWord.jpg|50x19px]]<font color="Black">Ekko  <font color="Black">(Brother  <font color="Black">Starr)  16:26, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 * (EC)Who cares about survivability. Warrs have 100AL, so they can Frenzy. Assas have no reliable IAS. Warrs>Assas.   16:27, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 * It is related. Professions using a diff. profs skills.  16:28, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Hardly. The original topic was a question of primaries, inspiried by R/A's, then it shifted to R/A vs. A/any, and now it's W vs. A.  [[Image:EkkoWord.jpg|50x19px]]<font color="Black">Ekko  <font color="Black">(Brother  <font color="Black">Starr)  16:32, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 * On that note, Mesmers are much better nukers than Elementalists. Discuss. [[Image:EkkoWord.jpg|50x19px]]<font color="Black">Ekko  <font color="Black">(Brother  <font color="Black">Starr)  16:32, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 * To simplify, Sins are better in terms of DPS/Spikes when it comes to most weapons because of Critical Strikes (whether you want to compare Rangers with Daggers to Sins with Daggers, or Sins using nearly any other weapon to the according primary), but they are easily countered because of their chains and reliance on Enchantments.
 * As for comparing Mesmers to Eles (even if it was sarcasms), FC isn't usually worth the loss of your attribute points and/or Elite Slot (Signet of Illusions). -Mike 16:38, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I dunno about that, you ever popped off 2 Meteor Showers at 16 attribute in a 2-3 seconds? It's pretty damn entertaining.  And Inspiration Magic is far better energy management than Energy Storage.  [[Image:EkkoWord.jpg|50x19px]]<font color="Black">Ekko  <font color="Black">(Brother  <font color="Black">Starr)  17:00, 4 June 2008 (EDT)

Sins cant pressure for shit. If its MS/DB then it has the highest DPS in the game against a target which does not move or do anything to counter at all. Shattering assault is ok pressure but frankly if you use it in 8v8 then its useless compared to a war. Sin dagger chain spikes fucking suck, unless your monk is pretty much retarded then you won't get a kill that way. MS/DB wont get a kill because you block it and oh noez you have to restart chain which gimps DPS. SA does shit domage. Wars do awesome DPS (providing you arent bad and know when to frenzy/rush for maximum DPS) as well as load out a evis/exe chain often for more pressure. Wars also are harder to kill when overextending, letting them be more versatile in kill pushes. Here is where Wars put the icing on the cake. Versatility. Your standard Sin bar can do shit all but damage - a war bar can interrupt (lol dchop @ woh gg), KD on demand (bulls strike, insane damage, and shock for quarterknocking goodness etc), as well as split (sure sins can split, but they either only split or suck). Overall, Wars > Sins unless you suck, hard. &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Rawr. 17:11, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 * ^ - 17:24, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 * MS/DB is the least important Sin Dagger build when it comes to the order of the chain, because you wait 2 seconds to reuse either MS or DB, and once you miss with an adrenal attack, you have to rebuild that adrenaline. We use sins because we want to unpredictably kill a target in 6 seconds or deal constantly high DPS and skip versatility, although Sins have better alternatives to counter blocking and conditions (if necessary). Versatility is mostly important for GvG (which is of course, the most organized form in the game), but unloading 600 damage (most of which is armor-ignoring) within 8 seconds is nice, too. So yes, Warriors>Sins in GvG where you shouldn't suck, but I liekz mah MS/DB spam and spikes for everything else.
 * As for playing a Me/E, you'd be splitting your Attributes 3 ways by taking Inspiration. Attunements, Glyph of Lesser Energy (and maybe something like Glowing Gaze/Ice/Stone or Shock Arrow) will usually cover energy management, and the ability to handle a couple doses of Exhaustion is nice, too. Plus, Aura of Restoration, as much as everyone will disagree, provides quite a bit health per second when casting. Doubling Meteor Shower isn't necessary in PvP; Fast-Casting isn't as important in PvE, and you could just take Mindbender, anyway. There are plenty of good Me/E builds out there, but I'd rather stick to my Elementalist Primary. -Mike 17:29, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Unloading the easiest to prot 600 damage ever in 8 seconds* &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Rawr. 17:32, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Versatility wins games. --71.229 17:47, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Sins are very versatile... and CAN pressure, and CAN spike. you just have not fail to be able to do any of those, which most people do...FAIL! Dutchess of Rose  aka  lukejohnson  - talk - Contributions 11:58, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Yeee Frvwr2 srsly go monk TA with a Shattersin sitting on your face hahahaha, I look 'n' laugh on sins "having no pressure abilities", In PvE...Assass are aweasome and can do much more than a warrior, have better farms etc. pvp is dead but whatever even there assass are great, and get nerfed because of that, srsly, look FP sins, were just amazing sause, huge damage, unblockability, what else do you fucking needed, even now in HA, Ranger/Assa telespikes with IV, devastating. --  Super Igor   *ninja!!*  12:04, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Wow both of you suck. Sins arent versatile. They cant pressure AND spike. They do one or the other. They're gimmicks. A/D is a stupid, easily counterable gimmick. Masway telespike isnt devastating if your monks arent bad, but a good warrior is. Here is how sins work; they are alot more effective than a warrior UP UNTIL THE POINT where you stop sucking at the game. &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Rawr. 12:08, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Lrn2read. i never said they can pressure AND spike... And if you dont suck, then you'll know what i mean when i say what i say about an assassin. you just obviously don't use one v.well (FAIL!) Dutchess of Rose  aka  lukejohnson  - talk - Contributions 14:21, 5 June 2008 (EDT)   Hope you cud read that rawr
 * SoS says gimmicks are gud (until nerfbat strikes a home run). I still cry myself to sleep because of that nerf. About using Sins compared to Warriors in PvP: it just means you need to play a Sin cautiously, know when to and not to spike, and when not to try to tank, because you can't rely on your 70 AL. XD -Mike 15:46, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
 * SO all in all. sins require brains to play well, and war's require no-skill, or reflexs to play well. Dutchess of Rose  aka  lukejohnson  - talk - Contributions 15:50, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
 * lol --[[Image:Ibreaktoilets_Signature.jpg|User:Ibreaktoilets|20px]]<font color="Black">Tab  <font color="Black">Moo  15:52, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Most of the time any jerkhole who can click a mouse can play Sin. Just click 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 on your skill bar and GG, you spiked! Warriors require skill to play. Yeah, this is either a REALLY smart comment or a REALLY fucking stupid one... Circle one. --Guild of Deals<font color="Black"> * Wah <font color="DAA520">Wah  Wah! * 15:56, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I wouldn't go so far as to say Warriors or Sins require no skill, but in some ways, Warriors are like the Ursans of PvP, because their high armor levels allow you to play a little more offensively/recklessly (Sins trying to play like an Ursan in PvP=uber failsauce, unless your backline can handle it), while Sins have to either specialize their builds or pick their moments because they are fragile. Because of their versatility, Warriors are easier to play, but that doesn't always mean better if you can build around that specialized Sin. So, sins that just suicide 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 are baed sins, because they won't usually be paying attention to anyone but their target. -Mike 16:00, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Is this a joke? [[Image:Rupert_bear sig.png|100px]] 20:02 {GMT} 5-06-<font face="Times">MMVIII
 * Just a conflict of interest. XD How I see it, is that playing a good Sin in PvP is usually harder than playing a good Warrior in PvP. Shattering Assault sins are slightly void of this, as they aren't spikers, but designed to pressure and cut through defenses. Rangers with melee weapons are currently gimmicks, because people don't bring a lot of Stance removal. -Mike 16:03, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
 * No... and 1 point. Almost all the sin buidls people use fail. Dutchess of Rose  aka  lukejohnson  - talk - Contributions 16:05, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I'm about to NPA at you. Pls stop your attempt at trolling. &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Rawr. 16:06, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
 * You've obviously never played real PvP if you think that. Come back when you've tried playing war vs a top 50 guild and tell me it's easier than playing a sin. --[[Image:Ibreaktoilets_Signature.jpg|User:Ibreaktoilets|20px]]<font color="Black">Tab  <font color="Black">Moo  16:06, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Rawr.. no1's trolling. And no ever! said that playing a war was easier... just playing a sin properly is harder Dutchess of Rose  aka  lukejohnson  - talk - Contributions 16:09, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
 * You're trolling, its impossible to be dumb enough to think that playing a war properly is easier than a sin. &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Rawr. 16:10, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

O boy, are you people actually discussing which profession is better? GFG.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ  16:08, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
 * lol. Warrior's are born with Versatility, and Sins acquire it through learning how much they've been failing. XD -Mike 16:11, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
 * @Ricky: They are. I need to archive this...(and learn how to do that), this page is huge and full of crap.  <font color="Green">   Starr    [[Image:Ekko_Spyrokirby.jpg|27x19px]] <font color="LightBlue"> smite!  16:13, 5 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Sin = Ganker or 4 v 4, War = Where ever the fuck you want. Anyone who thinks that Warriors get their kills from damage alone shouldn't even be here talking. --[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  17:56, 5 June 2008 (EDT)

This artical is epic
-- 7h3  ‎ n00b  <font color="Black">p0l1c3  [ 5p34k5  1337! ] 14:39, 8 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Sure. Let's go with that.  <font color="Green"> Ekko  [[Image:Ekko_Spyrokirby.jpg|27x19px]] <font color="LightBlue"> Starr!  15:20, 8 June 2008 (EDT)
 * i also think this needs to be archived xD. some people just ramble on and on about crap they dont understand :]-- 7h3  ‎ n00b  <font color="Black">p0l1c3 [[image:Badge.jpg|50x19px]] [ 5p34k5  1337!  ] 21:28, 8 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Archive, yes. Rabble, no. This guy just basically said Assassins and Crit Strikes are outdone my Rangers and Expertise, which is incredibly wrong. Expertise delays energy loss. Crit Strikes negates it. --Guild of Deals<font color="Black"> * Wah <font color="DAA520">Wah  Wah! * 21:29, 8 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Guild, some of this is just ranting. This was a comparison of primary attributes' energy management (albeit brought to mind by the R/A thing).  Nowhere do I say Rangers > Assassins.  I say that Expertise is better energy management than Critical Strikes (which I proved).  Expertise reduces energy cost, Crit Strikes gives some energy back.  They're both forms of energy management, and their very similar, so they can be compared.  Anyways, I'm not entirely sure how to archive...  <font color="Green"> Ekko  [[Image:Ekko_Spyrokirby.jpg|27x19px]] <font color="LightBlue"> Starr!  23:06, 8 June 2008 (EDT)

[Glad] ran that, can't remember the rest. &mdash;  Skakid  00:27, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Raor. Also, Guild, Expertise makes the skills always cost 3 less; Crit strikes gives you 3 energy if you critical. CS isn't negating anything; it's reducing the cost a percentage of the time. - PANIC!  [[Image:Panic_sig4.png|50px|18px]] <font color="#D70000"> sexiness!  04:19, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * One difference is as a ranger primary, when you run out, you run out. As an assassin primary when you run out you just autoattack for like 5 seconds and WHOOOOOSH that blue bar goes up. - 04:41, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * True, but as we learned you still spend a lot less energy anyway so you shouldn't be running out. - PANIC!  [[Image:Panic_sig4.png|50px|18px]] <font color="#D70000"> sexiness!  04:58, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I do like the idea of ranger primary shattersin but I do not understand the purpose of ranger assa in general, explain. --<font color="OrangeRed">Tiger  <font color="Black"> grrr!!  05:06, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Reliable blocks and better AL. --71.229 05:11, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Lower damage, most of attacks rely on use of enchantments. --<font color="OrangeRed">Tiger  <font color="Black"> grrr!!  05:13, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * And that's why this page is as long as it is. --71.229 05:14, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Because ranger assassins deal less damage with attacks that often rely on enchantments? --<font color="OrangeRed">Tiger  <font color="Black"> grrr!!  05:18, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Because people like to argue about whether the pros outweigh the cons. - PANIC!  [[Image:Panic_sig4.png|50px|18px]] <font color="#D70000"> sexiness!  05:23, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * It is natural for people to argue. --<font color="OrangeRed">Tiger  <font color="Black"> grrr!!  05:24, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Actually, it's probably natural for people to scream loudly and bash each other with sticks and rocks. The internet, unfortunately, takes all the fun out of life so we have to just argue instead. - PANIC!  [[Image:Panic_sig4.png|50px|18px]] <font color="#D70000"> sexiness!  05:26, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Isn't the internet great? / Fros  T  alk  \ 05:33, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Someone, please either tell me how to archive this page, or just do it yourself. <font color="Green"> Ekko  [[Image:Ekko_Spyrokirby.jpg|27x19px]] <font color="LightBlue"> Starr!  11:25, 9 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Is there any parts you'd specifically like to keep a duplicate of on this talk page? - PANIC!  [[Image:Panic_sig4.png|50px|18px]] <font color="#D70000"> sexiness!  11:30, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

No, not really. <font color="Green"> Ekko  <font color="LightBlue"> Starr!  11:54, 9 June 2008 (EDT)