Build talk:Me/A Assassin's Promise

Best mesmer build for general pve tbh. --Anonimous. D: 16:12, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * We has general template for these. [[Image:Zyke-Sig.png]] 17:55, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * /Sigh, different usage, much different(and better) bar/use of pve skills. Oh, it can also be used outside of Discordway. That one is WELLd btw.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 18:07, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Ether Phantom instead of Mind Wrack if dying before 10 seconds counts as "ends early." [[Image:Zyke-Sig.png]] 18:21, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * That Vanguard Spiker thingie you linked me to is trash, it only really works with Discord. As Life said this has much different and better usage and isn't pr0 on it's on like full-on Cryer would be.
 * You can see this build like MM Necro. Only difference is that it pops "minions" at your target out of nowhere, they hit harder, much harder and disappear after 15-30s. :p --Anonimous. D: 20:51, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * (EC) I know I'm not very good, but that thing has been around on the wiki for ages, so might as well trash it. [[Image:Zyke-Sig.png]] 20:55, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * What thing? --Anonimous. D: 21:08, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * [[Image:Zyke-Sig.png]] 21:09, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Why Ether Phantom? There is no point in it's "ends early" effect if target is killed. Doh, I so wish some PvX people would stop thinking on blank piece of paper. --Anonimous. D: 21:15, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I so wish that Vanguard Spiker thing gets trashed. --Anonimous. D: 21:16, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Meh. I likes extra E back. [[Image:Zyke-Sig.png]] 21:17, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Hacks? Ether Phantom doesn't give energy back. --Anonimous. D: 21:23, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * {{ec|1}Oh, pft. Stupid me, hacking anet. I use it with Drain too much, makes me think it gives energy. >.< [[Image:Zyke-Sig.png]] 21:24, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * We all make mistakes I guess. :p --Anonimous. D: 21:55, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Mind Wrack ... at 0 domination magic ... with no energy draining skills. Nice. 75.70.135.246 05:58, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * You fail so hard. [[User:Life Guardian|

 Life]]  05:59, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

with my 30 minutes of experience with the build
epidemic isn't worth it. "Finish Him!" is supposed to finish him, not keep him up long enough so that you can cast epidemic to spread conditions to adjacent instead of spam Cry and Assassin more. I suppose the problem is there aren't really many other skills that would synergize with the build, since you're effectively running a 7-skill bar. maybe just stick res sig in there after all. --Mafaraxas 04:15, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Or one of the inspiration stances for defense, depending on the area. --Mafaraxas 07:14, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * you realize that epidemic takes .1 second to "cast" right?-- Ikimono Needs more Paragon [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png|24px]] 16:25, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * FH+Epid is very powerful if you can't play it it's not my problem I don't make builds for res sig noobs. --Anonimous. D: 15:29, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Hello Anonimous. I am here to inform you that you are a complete joke and that running epidemic+conditions takes no skill whatsoever. Have a nice day. [[Image:Cute McMonkey.png]]Tab 19:12, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I dont actually know why you just thought using epidemic takes skill. That was... funny. This is an entirely zzz skilless bar. Rawrawr Dinosaur 19:14, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * yeah, its about as spammy as you get. Oh look, 5 ebon vanguard sins. Athrun Feya 15:44, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * He never said it took skill. Here's a translation. "FH!+epidemic is good. If you fail too hard to use it, gtfo and go fap to your rez sigs."  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 16:16, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * ^ --Anonimous. D: 16:57, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Mind Wrack
I don't really see the use for this in this build. Why is it in the build over other Mesmer hexes? Selket Shadowdancer 17:10, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * also spikes in pve? =/ I thought mass aoe was good? ~ Big  [[Image:Big sadface sig.PNG]]  sysop  17:17, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow, learn2cry. You better learn this shit once you join LOD. Mind Wrack pwns because it's fast, lasts forever, recharges hella fast, and is cheap. @Big, it depends on the situation what you use for the spike. If you need a meatwall, echo EVAS. If you want area damage, echo CoP.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 17:40, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Life, you should help me get Guardian of Cantha and Tyria. :> ~ Big  [[Image:Big sadface sig.PNG]]  sysop  17:41, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Lol, I play really weird hours, and tbh I hate all of cantha(except urgie <3). Might be able to help a bit with tyria if you play weird times as well.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 17:50, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Define weird. ~ Big  [[Image:Big sadface sig.PNG]]  sysop  17:55, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 9-11 pm Pacific. (GMT -8)  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 17:58, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * What amuses me is that all of that is written in usage but it looks like people can't read...for reasons stated by Life MW is good, if you dont expect heavy hex removal you can replace it with Web of Disruption but MW is better more often that is why it is main bar. --Anonimous. D: 18:01, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm usually online around that time, cept I'm not home atm. Also STFU ANONIMOUS YOU'RE BEING RUDE AND BREAKING OUR CONVERSATION UP IN THIS BUILD TALK. lol jk. ~ Big  [[Image:Big sadface sig.PNG]]  sysop  18:04, 26 March 2009 (UTC) no seriously I love you
 * Alright. Drop a message on my talkpage or ingame(Piercing Blades) whenever you want to do something. Discord or RoJ? Doesn't matter to me.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 18:07, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * no u
 * Life, why is that time wierd? --Anonimous. D: 18:10, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, most of my guild is east coast and we have a few euros, so my playing times are fucked up compared to others.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 18:14, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * He does have weird times, I need to stay up til 4am if he's ever gonna take me urgoz :P. Andy 18:52, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Just go with our regular team at 5 my time lol. I still need to get on a deep run btw.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 20:31, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Timing fails, everyone that does deep goes to bed at around 3 your time :P Andy 20:42, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I asked because I genuinely don't know why it is used over other hexes to prime Cry of Pain (I know it's there to prime it I'm not that stupid). I don't get why people have to act so dickish over someone asking a question to get better knowledge of a build. I guess you guys would rather people not ask and not learn the principle about a build. Typical PVX I guess. Selket Shadowdancer 21:13, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * To be fair Selket, Life did explain why Mind Wrack is used near the beginning of this section. Spaggage  talk  22:16, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * He did explain, but was rude too. Concidering the way most people on pvx would reply to him, its no surprise. Andy 23:10, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I guess I couldve been a bit nicer. Anyways, it is pvx, so I have a little bit of a break there. Ask in guild chat and you'll get a more polite answer :P.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 00:23, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It doesnt rly matter what hex you use as long as you kill stuff tbh--Relyk 00:26, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Blaming people's attitudes on PvX as if it is some established culture is silly. The active community is small enough that you could all simply agree to stop being dicks to each other, and it could happen. --Mafaraxas 03:58, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Where's the fun in that?  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 04:04, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Like that would ever realistically happen Athrun Feya 09:41, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * People are being dicks to us, we being dicks to them and it goes round this way. Sometimes newcomers get rage slapped in process. --Anonimous. D: 10:24, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * By the way, You move like a dwarf! + epidemic makes a nice snare if you want to try and keep foes together. Hmmm, I'd keep epidemic slot optional, its only really effective in HM as everything dies the moment you use FH in NM like Mafaraxas said. Mind Wrack, Ether Nightmare and Shrinking Armor are the only two hexes that last a while that you dont really need to spec and if a hex is stripped its quick recharge helps. Ether Nightmare could be taken, but then you've lost a valuable PvE-skill slot and cracked armor offers no real advantage against armor-ignoring damage. Mind wrack isnt a great skill, but its suitable for purpose.Athrun Feya 11:30, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * "People are being dicks to us, we being dicks to them and it goes round this way. Sometimes newcomers get rage slapped in process." No, that's exactly what I'm saying.  There's few enough active people in the community that, if you agreed to stop being dicks to each other, it would happen. --Mafaraxas 19:15, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

when did this become Dr. Phil discussion?
 * Dosen't change the fact that Anonimous is right. People here are harsh....just ingore it and try and grasp what they are saying.  Hard sometimes but they deal with some crappy builds.  Newcomers do get in the way.[[Image:Xtreme Hunter.png]] 14:32, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Nerfed
Cry of Pain was nerfed. What impact does this have on the build?
 * little effect. this build can still be very effective at what it does.  Just echo your EVAS instead of CoP.  19:45, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, and I updated the build usage to be accurate after the nerf. J  usting  6  [[image:Justing6_siggypic.png|19px]] 06:39, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Defensive Set
Sorry for the noobish question, but could someone please define for me what a Defensive Set is? What Weapon and Off-Hand and What Mods are needed on them? That would be great, Thanks. --70.179.133.8 16:13, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * A defensive set is usually a spear and shield, but can be any other combination of martial weapon and shield. Usually you bring a +5 energy mod on the weapon, an Of Fortitude mod. For the shield the inscription doesn't matter in PvE, and the mod is usually an Of Fortitude also. In PvP everything is the same except the inscription on the shield is very important, it can make it so a spike won't be able to deal enough damage to kill a person, or just give a monk enough time to stop it. Drahgal Meir 16:19, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually inscriptions on shields can be just as important on HM to be honest. While you don't see too many people running around with a ton of shield sets they generally bring the important ones for specific areas they do (+10al vs Lightning for FoWSC main team for example). Selket Shadowdancer 09:30, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I dont. :p True anyway. --Carnivorous CupcakeCarnCupcake Muffin.jpg 09:32, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I do. I'd rather have a permanant +10 al bonus and weapon switch than have a 20% chance of -5 damage. Selket Shadowdancer 09:47, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * if u can be bothered to find or buy the inscriptions--Relyk 10:44, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I cant. :p If I find one then I will make me a defensive set for that purpose if not then I really can't be bothered. --Carnivorous CupcakeCarnCupcake Muffin.jpg 13:49, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I always have shields with +10 armor vs type. Or at least fire and slashing. Piercing is another good one to have. -- Ikimono "My beard is thick." [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png|24px]] 16:20, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

One Shot Wonder?
I don't see how the energy works on this build. First, the suggested equipment does not provide the 52 energy required for a full run through the bar as stated in the Usage; radiant + vitae + defensive set falls short (survivors no way). Second, Auspicious Incantation + Arcane Echo provides +3 net energy and Assassin's Promise provides +7 net energy on death. That's not enough to make much use of expensive EVAS (10e), MW+CoP (15e), and Finish Him (10e) a second time around which means that the rest of the fight is spent scrounging for energy instead of contributing much.

One time through the bar makes this a "great" build? 64.30.95.118 14:27, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * 5e for Mind wrack, then ausp + echo takes you back to full energy, to cast your 3x 10e spell + 5e for AP, 10e for FH and 5e for epidemic. If your target didn't die soon after FH, then I'm worried. The death provides you with 16 energy and a recharged Auspicious, making it easy to continue after. Andy 15:19, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Not to mention that many things die before you can complete a full combo and assuming the rest of your team isn't too bad you occasionally get "free" energy from an extra AP on something that's almost dead. Athrun Feya [[image:Athrun_Sig.gif]]RwrRr  15:47, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I misread the energy return for AP which makes it a little better. But Andy, 3x 10e + 5e + 10e + 5e = 50e. How do you get that from the suggested equipment, especially survivors? You get back 16e from AP on death which means you'll likely be sitting at <20e with regen. Auspicious Incantation basically lets you cast one thing free but is not much use for generating excess energy. Athrun, that was my point: this build relies too much on others to do the work. This build quickly runs out of energy and then only gets it back if other players do all the killing. 64.30.95.118 18:20, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Then take a Hero with Discord and a condition....problem solved.-- X  TREME Hunter.png 18:45, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

This is the bar that the build's energy management will support. Other stuff can only be used as a substitute for a casting of EVAS or as a one shot deal using the starting reserve of max energy. 64.30.95.118 19:05, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Well any team is going to create some amount of damage (I suppose you could say you are relying on it, but what is the problem if that support damage is always there anyway? Not like this is a solo build), you have some AoE damage plus left over ebon sins from last spike target (think i had ~6 up once), meaning you really aren't going to need the full combo for every single target. It would be wrong to assume that is the case, this is why your argument is flawed Athrun Feya [[image:Athrun_Sig.gif]]RwrRr  19:11, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * cop doesn't really let you spike now. but spamming evas and dw is gud--Relyk 19:20, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

lol, if you wana uber EVAS spike, use this build for moar AoE EVAS pwnage: http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Rt/Me_Ebon_Vanguard_Nuker 68.227.202.180 01:45, October 1, 2009 (UTC)

Fragility
>Mind Wrack? More damage + synergy with condis. Also, y epidemic? Yesyes, AoE dw, but... -- -Mezzy- (talk) -- 13:22, October 4, 2009 (UTC)
 * Though Epidemic would be gud synergy with Fragility... --[[Image:Jaigoda_endrant.jpg|/rant]]  Jai  writes a  lot . . . 13:36, October 4, 2009 (UTC)
 * Aye, so I thought. -- -Mezzy- (talk) -- 13:39, October 4, 2009 (UTC)
 * well it's been changed for a bit now.-- Ikimono "...And my axe" [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png|24px]] 13:42, October 4, 2009 (UTC)
 * Orite, no illusion spec :> -- -Mezzy- (talk) -- 13:47, October 4, 2009 (UTC)

Ether Signet
Anyone considered Ether Signet in replace of Auspicious Incantation? At 7 Inspiration, AI will provide a free 10 energy cost spell, and a net energy gain of 3 with Arcane Echo. Ether Signet, with the same investment in Inspiration, if used carefully will consistently net 15 energy and the long recharge is negated by Assassin's Promise. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.176.141.50 (talk &bull; contribs).
 * No, because you should be able to keep your energy above 7. AI is also easier to use. [[Image:Zyke-Sig.png]] 00:41, October 5, 2009 (UTC)

"You Are All Weeklings"
Should be on main bar with removal of Echo....tbh better spike with Fagility-- X 20:52, March 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * i dont think frags spike was the idea of the build. more like lol5ebonassassins. - Athrun Feya [[Image:Lau_bfly.gif]] - 21:03, March 2, 2010 (UTC)

Chaos Storm
Added into variants as its now the mes version of Roj, cheap, ab-usable Armour ignoring damage. The side effect of a 5 or 6 storms damaging and draining mobs is quite lol and does trigger mindwrack pretty frequently for extra "oh? cool, didnt know mobs could run dry'ness " :D....Add the pretty animation :D Jayson MaxxFury  17:04, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

Fancy new bar
Dunno if it's better. Life  Guardian  01:02, June 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Seems like more of an AP nuker than an AP Spiker, so maybe a different build page? Also, BUH would probably be better than EVAS or CoP with the lolChaosStorm spam. Toraen TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png]] 01:08, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Probably take out CoP, cuz the sin does like 400 damage on its own. Life   Guardian  01:11, June 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * True, and being able to choose between echoing EVAS and Chaos Storm gives it flexibility. I'd want "Finish Him!" too, but it'd have to replace Shatter. Toraen <font face="Courier New" color="DarkGoldenrod">TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png]] 01:16, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

I keep looking at this...
...and trying not to see a specced Discord caller...it isn't working. Erring Ryft 20:09, July 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * No hex + condition combo for "calling" with.. i dont see disco caller. Same ways i dont see a disco caller with the nec/a mop nuker..i see sin spammer with an on demand ap proc from FH... sidenote: it should really have chaos storm main barred, but someone made a nuker version even tho that bars is in this ones variables.*edit: could have sworn shatter dels was in the optionals :P *edit2:must have been looking at section above her:P <font color="ForestGreen">Jayson <font color="Black">MaxxFury  23:46, July 9, 2010 (UTC)

Merge
Because they both rely on the same idea. The main difference is between fragility and chaos storm. FH! is a lot better than Shatter Delusions, and Epidemic is at least better than Mind Wrack. -- Jai . -  04:44, January 13 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with the merge, they're very similar builds (almost indistinguishable) based on the same concept. Though I am of the opinion that all AP based caster builds are more or less the same build. Darkoak 14:18, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
 * well, i had added Chaos storm to the variants/optionals like 2 weeks before the nuker version was submitted.. wasnt sure there was a need for it back then in the first place :D either way Jayson Rayne 02:17, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I guess that plan never worked out. Chill728 16:46, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Should Be This
[build=OQdUAwAPKfSiOLB7i2kxkLQvNkAA] I run this on areas with either small groups of foes (no panic) or not many melee (no ineptitude spam) - its pretty damn epic, and I beleive that the main build should be edited to this :p -- <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain  <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  18:48, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Fragility would be better than Arcane Conundrum. Cuilan 22:48, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Those last two skills really should just be optional. -- Jai . -  07:36, May 13 2011 (UTC)
 * Illusion of Pain > Epidemic. Epidemic may not hit if you just have FH for conditions since that will often kill a foe right away. Cuilan 19:28, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah even though I was advocating IoP above, the idea of frag aoe damage from 3 conditions aoe is a nice idea :p (As a result I put both in optional. )-- [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  19:32, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Don't use a mesmer?
TBH in my opinion this is a poor excuse of a build because humans suck at mesmering and they need to just use a different proffession just my opinion 76.6.154.0 03:20, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Humans mesmer just fine. The only thing heroes always do better is catching short casts, but they don't prioritize important skills to interrupt. Also this build does not feature any significant mesmering. --  Toraen   talk  03:44, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't see the build as an excuse for anything or that people who use it necessarily are bad at the profession. kthxbai. Cuilan 15:21, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Maybe it's just you that sucks... Humans are fine at "mesmering." -- Jai . -  15:36, August 4 2011 (UTC)

variants
This one is good, but it can be probably be much better. Some suggestions:
 * Fragility (with or without Epidemic) is weak damage. Besides IoP, the only worthwhile big hitters from Illusion line are and, which aren't even mentioned.
 * I'd go with Domination line for more damage (plus rupts all day). 13 Dom and something like 9 Insp, FC, and Deadly. Then spam, , maybe.
 * Auspicious has neat synergy with AP and all (coolness points there), but and  get the same job done while also being able to rupt every few seconds. They're also quick casts so you can spend your time on evas and Dom dmg. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fianchetto (talk &bull; contribs) 00:27, 30 November 2011 (UTC).

Chaos Storm
I have been using this build for a while with domination. Chaos storm + foc/mistrust works a 100 times better. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.125.106.163 (talk) at 15:27, 14 February 2012 (UTC).

"armor ignoring"
Most of the build and its optionals are armor ignoring, no need to put it on everything. ಠ_ಠ Cuilan 03:16, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Merge consensus
It seems like it was never actually reached, so I'm confused as to why someone went right ahead with the merge, especially since the build was already vetted (on wikia anyway) and that's a rather large change. I'd like to see what thoughts are on splitting this page, specifically whether it'd be better for each variant's presentation than the current optionals lists. -- Toraen   confer  01:39, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * A consensus was met and agreed by many people; only opposed by Relyk and Rask, I believe. Both "builds" serve the same purpose, each attribute is used to "deal more damage", AoE or single-target, but it's very similar to the AP elementalist page now, which should be acceptable. Rask is just trolling and needs to chill. Soi Sticker 01:42, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Consensus != majority vote. The problem here is that there are a lot more skills available to chose from, with no indication of the optimal choices. One could easily assemble a build that leaves out key skills with the current presentation. It needs improvement at the very least, even if it's just two separate skill bars on the same page (although I don't particularly like that solution). -- Toraen   confer  01:45, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm confused, I opposed this as well. :s <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 01:47, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I was fine with an illusion and then a domination AP build. Made them a bit more focused and simple perhaps for someone wanting to try AP spam. Cuilan 01:52, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Fianchetto did the move, I think, and was a bit stupid on the optionals. I'll list optimal not -possible- skills. @Vincent; QQ. It seems to be a big circle jerk movement to me. The AP Mesmer was made in 2009. Alot of mesmers ran it pre-mesmer update, and people still run it now, because nothing was nerfed. Soi Sticker 01:53, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Telling someone "QQ" is not constructive discussion. The issues brought up against the merge were not addressed at all before the merge. You're calling the complaints a circle jerk with no real basis for the claim. Also, the fact that people run AP mesmer is irrelevant to this discussion. -- Toraen   confer  02:02, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * But to be clear I don't see it as a big deal. The merge thing I mean. Cuilan 02:06, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * How is it irrelevant? Both attributes are very much mix/match, and the example is AP Elementalist. Look at the number of key skills and optionals for each attribute. That's all that needs to happen here, because once you have fitted energy management, you won't have much space left for dom or illusion skills. Soi Sticker 02:07, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * It (that people use the build) is irrelevant because we're discussing a merge/split, not whether the build's concept is viable. No one is actually arguing the latter. -- Toraen   confer  02:11, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

The Me/A spiker was original EVAS with Fragility put on for extra damage from YMLaD and FH and as a cover hex along with fuel for drain delusions. I posted AP dom (nuker) because you use AP to bypass Chaos Storm's recharge and spam the shit out of AoE damage from dom skills. Soi and others brought up the issue that the focus of the spiker wasn't indeed EVAS, but using EVAS and illusion magic given the 12 spec into Illusion Magic. Soi mentioned using wandering eye for nuking and IoP for pushing kills, etc. So after listening to soi bitch about how the dom version should be merged into the illusion version (AP Spiker) instead of an individual page (as well as change the actual AP Spiker bar to reflect such), I went ahead and merged it. There was no arguments against keeping domination separate and Soi made the point that we provided a similar solution for AP ele.-- Relyk 02:26, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * tl;dr Soi is starting drama just because he can.  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  03:36, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Danny's rating
How is that allowed to stay? No AP build is built specifically for Discord. If you can only run AP bars successfully with Dickcord then you suck at the game. Discord is terrible but AP is the reason it wins; you just time AP right, you can cover it with IoP anyway and shit dies so fast with two copies of EVAS slapping it. It's the same fucking argument every troll makes vs an AP bar. Necro, Ele and now this. Get your head out of his ass and get him an account so he can see first hand how wrong he is zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Soi Sticker 09:47, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
 * 1, you don't tell Danny how to play guild wars. Period. 2, telling Danny how to play guild wars nulled this entire section. See the section below for my reasoning.  With Love~, ♣  RąʂKɭɘş  10:22, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Did you hide your reasoning? halp can't see it. I actually want this looked at by someone who isn't completely bent. Soi Sticker 10:30, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
 * the irony contained within that comment is so dense that the physical laws of the universe break down as they approach it. Danny 11:25, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Just as I expected from you, Danny. Very predictable. Do you have the PvE know-how to reply sensibly? Soi Sticker 11:35, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
 * please dear god soi, dont follow up this trolling comment, with some title, guild, or years of pve experience bullshit.. please..  Akio _Ka  t  suragi   Akio_Katsuragi_Sig2.jpg 06:25, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Rask's Rating
30 seconds is not a short recharge time. PvE skills are way more powerful in terms of damage and support (knockdown spam from 2x EVAS at a time isn't OP or supportive? mk) You then have a choice of two~ maybe three mesmer skills which you can spam faster than their recharge with high FC and supreme energy management. Why do you think it's been used so often up until the update? Alot switched to Panic, but the ones who weren't defencefags or had heroes run the boring roles, they carried on using this. Trashing a common mesmer build used ingame from PvX after 3 years due to a vendetta is silly, I'd urge you to reconsider your rating. Thanks. Soi Sticker 09:54, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Single target damage on the most OP nuker in the game is stupid. Splitting into deadly arts just so you can spam pve skills on the most OP nuker in the game is stupid. You've stated somewhere that "no one is as precise with their nukes as AI" which shows me that either you know jackshit about the majority of hero mechanics, or you really suck at picking targets to nuke. Running an Esurge/Ineptitude/Panic build pushes out more dps/utility and even those work fine with dickord making this still inferior. "It works" and "I use this in winds of change" are not valid reasons for voting this in. As if that wasn't bad enough, you (and relyk I might add) took two already shitty (but widely used) builds and threw them together into some fucked up guide that has zero focus. We don't store "jack of all trades" builds unless it's the best option for a class or specific situation. This is neither the best option for a mesmer to play nor can I see it being optimal in any situation. If you would like to try and convince me how wasting time spamming single target damage on a nuker is Pr0 then be my guest, my vote isn't changing though.  With Love~, ♣  RąʂKɭɘş  10:29, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
 * That thing you quoted me on; I didn't say that :p Nothing to that effect even. I said the boring shit like Panic goes on heroes. Because Panic is tedious for a player to run and you yourself said, quoting, "The AI has been improved in using Panic now; before it was good now it's amazing" words to that effect. As far as utility goes, nothing beats multiple spammable KDs. Ymlad and two copies of EVAS; nothing beats that. Your hard-on for Ineptitude is blinding your judgement on every other Mesmer build. It's becoming very tedious. Soi Sticker 10:34, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
 * You said it on another page, probably one of the ineptitude discussions. There's this awesome spammable AoE KD called psychic instability, and I said Energy surge too buddy, Esurge is pro on a player that can echo chain it with AoS. None of your reasons are valid bro.  With Love~, ♣  RąʂKɭɘş  10:37, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Firstly, there are a very scarce number of players running PI effectively in any level of PvE due to requiring reflexes and PvE not requiring them at all. Depending on Air of Superiority for the 10% recharge is even worse than depending on the random +5e for energy management on a warrior bar to fuel ymlad. We're talking about the whole of PvE; this ranges from 2-8 foes per mob, and you're rarely going to get that trigger every mob and the AP bar will end up out-damaging your Echo-Esurge bar. In itself, that sounds like a terrible build; Arcane Echo-Esurge, you lose out on so much energy just to output a quick amount of spike damage before you have to wait to recharge; only losing esurge's copy after 2 fires. You lose damage when doing that. You get to cast the copied EVAS about 6 or 7 times before you have to recast Arcane Echo and there are no energy problems. Basically, ending every one of your arguments with "None of your reasons are valid, bro." does not make yours valid and people suddenly go "By Joe, Rask sounds rather certain of himself; I'll nod and agree with what he says", because we're going in circles here, so I can only hope to teach you some guildwars while we discuss this build... Let's gather the facts. It is a strong build that has always been used to abuse the PvE skills and, especially, to echo EVAS. This is the advantage Mesmers have using AP over other professions. There was, since, a Mesmer update buffing Mesmer elites/skills, but the main thing to remember is nothing was nerfed of the build itself but new Mesmer skills and avenues were opened up to abuse with AP. You can have your cake and eat it; getting to spam your powefully OP Mesmer skills while also reducing the cooldown by a few seconds if you're fast and, more importantly, continue spamming EVAS, Ymlad and Finish Him. This is important you understand the necessity, at times, of spiking down key targets and immobilising them with knockdowns and cripple. Because you have three of them on your bar. You can also have Arcane Conundrum on your bar, which is defensive, decreases enemy spell cast by half and returns energy when Drained. There is no better setup where damage and utility are concerned for a human. Ymlad is also a 0s cast and Fast Casting doesn't make it recharge faster. Sorry for the enormous post but even this doesn't cover everything you need to know before rating this build properly. Thanks for reading. Soi Sticker 10:58, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
 * That is far too much text for anything having to do with PvE. Holy shit. Danny 11:26, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Single target damage is so op yo, but esurge sucks even though I qq about it being super leet 24/7.FYI there are more than just 3 pve skills, a few you may want to look at are Air of Superiority and Ebon Battle Standard of Wisdom. I hear they win halls.  With Love~, ♣  RąʂKɭɘş  11:34, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
 * The only PvE skills better than Ymlad is Technobabble, because then EVAS' attacks all interrupt a single target. You mostly QQ about Inept being great, but Illusion as a whole is weak apart from 2 skills. The rest of that bar is filler. Ebsow is fine until you have to move, it promotes bad play when you're not in a tank and spank team, due to having to kite AoE damage and DoTs. AoS, I'm already explained why that's bad; you cannot depend on it. That last reply was straight-up trolling while I am trying to convey to you my point. Are you seriously going to waste Toraen's time with this? Must I resort to the AN? Soi Sticker 11:43, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll stress with every ounce of sincerity I can muster atm, one more time. All of this shit, could be put into making a guide, instead of arguing with rask, who isn't changing his mind, because its a valid point. Unless torean removes my vote, mines not changing for shit regardless. AP needs a guide rather than a fucking variant popping up for each profession that can use an assassin elite, obvious pve skills, and oh gee, some primary spells as well. the build itself is fine, its a waste of space though, when every AP build seems to use the same few skills, and miraculously seems to only be modified by the primary profession if its /A. Which is damn near impossible to grasp, but hey, i'm just a little kid on some website who very, i stress very rarely gets involved in build discussion. This however is a valid one. I swear there was a(n) any/A shadow form page somewhere before that someone managed to somehow fit w/'s mo/'s me/'s r/'s d/'s p/'s n/'s and i'm to lazy to list other profs, cuz i'm not going to make a guide. but i think you should. because idt this build deserves anything other than a page that starts with Any/A Assassins Promise Caster. in all honesty. we could get into all sorts of builds use the same skills, yea, but this uses the same elite, for the same effect, with the same pve skills, and throws in some prof specific spells to spice up the marriage. its a glorified, recycled sex toy. it doesn't need a new color, just give it a generic name and all the possible functions, and it'll do its job just nicely, i presume.  Akio _Ka  t  suragi   Akio_Katsuragi_Sig2.jpg 12:01, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
 * It didn't just popup. @_@. It has been on this site for three fucking glorious years. Why change things now when they've worked so well? An AP guide would have been fine if Discord was still around, but it's not. Soi Sticker 12:16, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
 * You all are a bunch of kids. Cuilan 16:44, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Look who's talking. And no soi, I didn't like the build when it was initially posted either, it got bandwagoned to great by pvetards. It's been left to stagnant until now ^^-- Relyk 21:33, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
 * You didn't like it even before the update? Also, where the hell is Toraen? Soi Sticker 09:28, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
 * why did i read that like a kid looking for the teacher cuz he can't play kickball with the other kids at recess? -Akio
 * You act like it's my job to babysit votes :/ (hint: it's not, at all). You guys have about a week before I step back into this mess to sort it out on your own (and the build won't even be deleted for 2 weeks). Every time I moderate votes at all drama starts and I'm kinda tired of it right now. I guess I'll say this while I'm here though: Rask, votes aren't for merge/split negotiation. The optionals nightmare has been mostly cleared up, and someone using this page would be able to make the dom and illusion bars easily with the given skills. You probably shouldn't have moved it back to testing if you still wanted it split. -- Toraen   confer  06:46, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
 * It's not really drama... I'd consider it activity. Ignore that, though. Make a decision as to whether the ratings are fine to remain. I've made my points and laid out the case quite simply; do they not have to reply at least to justify their rating? Danny certainly hasn't done that. The fact that such a good build, that's been in Great for three years, is being trashed in 2012 because of troll votes (and not understanding the rating system) is stupid. I shall leave it in your hands, Toraen, because I cannot convince them to edit or delete their ratings, which is why it's your job to take action. Soi Sticker 07:10, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
 * The build is shit and has been since the mesmer update. The "trolls" have been active on this site since it was made, you keep saying my vote is invalid because I'm a troll and a bad voter and you don't address the other pve mesmer builds that are far better than this one. You keep trying to prove this build is superior but you refuse to offer proof, as you once said "show me numbers". Compare this to standard illusion/dom bars and explain to my why shutting down/damaging one foe at a time is superior to shutting down/damaging entire groups of enemies. Back up your argument with numbers and realistic situations where this build has an advantage, then I'll reevaluate my reasoning and vote if I see fit to do so.  With Love~, ♣  RąʂKɭɘş  07:16, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
 * 1. It was a Great and well-received build among the community for three years. It was not nerfed in anyway, only buffed in that non-elite mesmer skills were also buffed to be used with AP. Granted, Fast Casting came into play, but it didn't provide any solution to energy management nor the important factor of abusing PvE skills. Cry of Pain is a weak one, especially after it's nerf, but EVAS, Ymlad and/or Technobabble/Finish Him! are the most powerful skills. They take no attributes so you can still spec fully into illusion or domination. The real comparison comes from whether 1. the recharge time is worth dropping an elite slot. The answer is yes. You have more spiking power, snares and damage prevention available and spammable on the AP bar. The play style may be slightly different, but that doesn't lower it's effectiveness or universality; you've just trashed a working build. Soi Sticker 07:27, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I trash non-working builds too. Your argument isn't why this build is better than other builds, it's why this build works. I know it works, I just think it's a poor choice in every given situation. You've failed to show numbers or any situations where this shines more than a dom/illusion mesmer, please go come back with some evidence. Builds fall out of use from updates, just because they were good a year ago doesn't mean they are good now, if anything this should be archived.  With Love~, ♣  RąʂKɭɘş  09:17, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
 * It fills a niche. It can do everything the AP Air bar can do, but spike slightly better. Of course you can Echo different spells in different situations which makes it more robust than either AP Ele bars, but my point still stands that even if it has dropped out of meta (it was infact meta, btw) it doesn't make it trash. I'll sort some numbers out later, don't worry about that. Soi Sticker 10:15, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't see any point in giving this build a 0 considering it'll continuously return since variants of it are clearly good enough for the great tag. Greater than many of the ranger and dervish junk builds. It really seems that it isn't Soi who's the one trolling and causing drama. If this site didn't have so many biased admins and friends then you would be joining Minion with a ban with your trolling. I know this site likes to give 5 or 0 for most things to manipulate ratings, but you're obviously aware this isn't a build to 0. Cuilan 15:16, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Even
if this doesnt get a great or meta rating, people can still use it on their user page and people can use it in game right? or does the vote make it never useable by someone in game? i'm confused on that element if a build receives a bad rating and the votes stay that way. i'm worried i wont enjoy the game anymore if this gets trashed. :(  Akio _Ka  t  suragi    10:18, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
 * If this gets trashed and you use it knowing it's been trashed then you get banned from pvx forevar.  With Love~, ♣  RąʂKɭɘş 
 * well shit. was beginning to think this determined my acceptance to law school.  Akio _Ka  t  suragi   Akio_Katsuragi_Sig2.jpg 10:34, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

someone
just make a goddamn guide for Any/A so soi will stfu. this isn't npa, this is a reference to the only person causing a big deal about it. if its that tragic, make a guide. if not, /shrug/ tbh. just some advice. this site isn't god, and you can run whatever the fuck you want. vetted or not its a fucking game.  Akio _Ka  t  suragi    10:43, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Spoken like a true bro.  With Love~, ♣  RąʂKɭɘş  11:30, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Two Votes
lol. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]   19:38, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
 * toraen should readp my ratingand be lliek ok he mks tsnese rite.sry i drunk Soi Sticker 02:43, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
 * then why are you on the internet, presumably at home, presumably alone. when you could be out, presumably in a bar, presumably with a girl. your soi, not dandy or danny. you can't just suddenly do drunk edits, makes it seem fake, or for attention. if i was drunk atm, i'd already be at the girls house i'm leaving for atm. if you read this danny, since your the only one who would know who i'm talking about, this is the one from the pic i sent you with the nice computer, and the brown hair that i sent you like a month ago. also, soi, this wasn't some kinda provoking comment, it was just a blatant one. idc if you drunk edit, if thats what you wanna do, make it your thing. stay golden ponyboy.  Akio _Ka  t  suragi   Akio_Katsuragi_Sig2.jpg 06:29, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
 * >go out drinking >get drunk >come home >wonder if the discussion has progressed any, >drunk edit! Soi Sticker 09:27, 3 March 2012 (UTC)