User:Malokai92/Wiki Drama/A/R Way of the Bow/Archive 1

Build Wars
Made and trashed a million and one times. Learn to play a ranger and not fluke interrupts. Spaggage  talk  21:47, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, but the average ranger build interrupts once every 9 seconds or so, this has the ability to interrupt every second or two. And over 60% chance isn't really "fluke." My2Cents 22:04, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Savage recharges in 5. Dshot in 10. You're not actively trying to interrupt skills though. You shoot an arrow and hope it interrupts. When someone is using a res sig, you just auto attack them and hope to get an interrupt? Not as effective as a ranger. Spaggage  talk  22:14, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * When someone uses a res sig, I get 3 shots off with needling/melandru's, so I have well over a 90% chance of interrupting. If dshot and savage were recharging, what would you do? Even if savage were charged, you still may not get dshot off, so if anything, this is more reliable. My2Cents 22:36, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Episode V: The Math Strikes Back
When someone uses a res sig, I get 3 shots off with needling/melandru's, so I have well over a 90% chance of interrupting. Sorry, lol'd irl. 22:45, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I did too. I'll change it so it's correct: "When someone uses a res sig, I use D-Shot and they cant resurrect their ally."-- Ikimono Needs more Paragon [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png|24px]] 23:08, 25 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Probably you should stop being terrible at interrupting --Oj ▲ mo  22:53, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry everyone hates this. Res sig has about 85% chance to be interrupted while autoattacking, dshot really isnt needed. 2 second activation skills are easy too, and lower than 1 second you pretty much need a turret anyway. My2Cents 23:59, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Good rangers d-shot 3/4s without RtW, and amazing rangers can time it (not random) to nab infuse (1/4) sometimes. Not-terrible monks can fit spells between your auto-attacks and don't fall below 50% health enough for you to be useful. BHA and Concussion Shot are better than this entire build. Also, learn2math. You don't have anywhere near a 85% chance to critical on each attack (the chance stacks multiplicatively). For two autoattacks (all you'll be able to fit with a bow) during rez sig, you have a total 67.7% chance to interrupt. 3 attacks is ~81%. Toraen 01:17, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Just ran into this in RA as a monk. Sin didn't interrupt me once. I laughed my ass off the whole time.-- Ikimono Needs more Paragon [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png|24px]] 01:21, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * tldr; I prefer 100% chance to interrupt rez sig, and to disable it for 20 seconds. Toraen 01:22, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Toraen, disabling a 1/4 second skill is educated guesswork, not really skill (fastest attack activation is 1/3 of a second), so this build is probably better for that. Additionally, I can do math: 49% from enchants plus about 12% from 12 marksman is 61% net total crit chance. Therefore you have .39*.39=.15 (15%) chance to not crit, or 85% to crit. With 3 attacks it's 94%. And Ikimono, either you ran GoL and got really lucky, or the sin wasn't running the build. I ran this in RA and won 1v2 vs a monk and sin. Such is RA... My2Cents 01:41, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * You don't add to get 49+12. It's actually (1/1.33)*(1/1.15)*(1/1.15)*(1/1.12) to give 0.507, your probability of not criting (it says additional in the skill, but its multiplicative). That's a 49.3% chance to critical on each attack. I accidentally forgot to include the crit from marks in my above comment, but it doesn't make a lot of difference. Toraen 02:22, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if you understand how critical hits work in conjunction with assassins, I'd recommend you read about an assassin's critical hits miltiplication on GWW and Izzy's base critical hit rate guide to learn more about it. Anyway, the total really is about 61%. My2Cents 03:02, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * From the first page you linked: "Please note that this is not simple addition. Critical chance multiplies between skills". Toraen   talk  03:08, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * You must have missed the big tables where they did the math for you. In the bottom of the second table (CE+WotM) it says that, at 14 critical strikes, you gain +49% chance to crit. gg. My2Cents 03:12, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * That doesn't make the build good at all. Random interrupts aren't useful against good players, especially considering bow attack speed and needling shot's restriction. They only work against bad players and PvE mobs. Toraen   talk  03:14, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm aware this isn't a magebane build. The idea is to combine the effectiveness of common ranger elites with great energy management, constant 75% blocking, and higher dps. Disrupting a great deal is a nice bonus. My2Cents 03:19, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Burning Arrow Hunter's Shot Savage Shot Lightning Reflexes Natural Stride Higher DPS, enough blocking.-- Ikimono Needs more Paragon [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png|24px]] 03:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Similar if you chose burning arrow, only smaller DPS (think +60% crits, keen arrow every 6 seconds), less blocking, inability to spike as efficiently, and less energy management. Oh, and fewer interrupts. My2Cents 03:38, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Episode VI: Return of the Build Author
Remove permanent deletion tag and begin testing? Unless anyone else has suggestions/reasons why it shouldn't even be vetted. My2Cents 05:35, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * You can move to testing if you want, but the WELL tag stays. [[Image:Zyke-Sig.png]] 06:03, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

The synergies in the A/R bow builds are great, but sadly they're simply not as effective as a normal ranger. HareeMuh 10:21, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * People have been telling me this, but I don't understand why a normal ranger is necessarily more effective. This allows longer, better blocking, higher dps, spiking aid with keen and needling, and the functionality of normal ranger elites. It also rupts a lot. The sacrifice for all this is slower (but more frequent) interrupts, and inability to disable enemy skills. It seems viable to me. Zyke, why do you want immediate deletion? You haven't actually criticized it. My2Cents 17:59, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Ranger > This. Amorality 18:43, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The second you put this into testing it's gonna get 0-0'd anyways. You're probably the 5th person this month to try and submit an identical bar, and it's because rangers can pressure heavily with apply, provide MUCH better spike capabilities as a turret, get fucking OP stances, and are much more self-reliant in terms of condition removal and survivability. Sure, this can interrupt and block and provide some spike support (besides that it's tagged RA/AB). Take a ranger, and you get the interrupts with extra effects, block, spike support, party-wide pressure, slightly higher maneuverability, and much better survivability. All you have to do is not play it like a retard. If you keep insisting shit like this is good, you're not gonna find PvX to be a very friendly place in the future. Everyone gets their first few builds trashed. 95% of those first few builds are identical to this one. Just give up and accept that this is terrible. --<font color=Orange face="Comic Sans MS">Shazzy diddles 18:50, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I'm not trying to be annoying, and I know my first build won't be great, I just wish someone would take the time to explain why its so bad so I can "accept that this is terrible." An average ranger doesn't have better blocking, spike support, or much better survivability (maybe mending touch). Nor does it have higher DPS. It may have better party-wide pressure from poison, but -4 degen isn't exactly deadly. Maybe I'm just biased because I've been pretty successful with it, more so than as ranger (not because I can't rupt, because rangers simply don't do enough damage). <font color="Blue">My2Cents 19:06, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * There's more than enough explaination here on this page. Most of the other replicas of this got nowhere near this amount of explaining/reasoning on them. They just got tagged and deleted. Spaggage  talk  19:24, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok everything that you have said in that paragraph is absolutely wrong. Amorality 19:58, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, delete it! But telling me I'm wrong after I've posted the math showing that it's correct isn't very helpful, if you disagree with anything I said, please be more specific and post a counterexample? "Ranger > this" just isn't helpful. <font color="Blue">My2Cents 20:04, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * You lack utility and pressure. Rend says hai2u. You still deal less damage than a ranger, and all your damage is random. Your interrupts are easily timed, and you lack dshot, which, once again, is insane pressure.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 20:07, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * To quote Toraen "Good rangers d-shot 3/4s without RtW, and amazing rangers can time it (not random) to nab infuse (1/4) sometimes. Not-terrible monks can fit spells between your auto-attacks and don't fall below 50% health enough for you to be useful. BHA and Concussion Shot are better than this entire build. Also, learn2math. You don't have anywhere near a 85% chance to critical on each attack (the chance stacks multiplicatively). For two autoattacks (all you'll be able to fit with a bow) during rez sig, you have a total 67.7% chance to interrupt. 3 attacks is ~81%." Your maths is also wrong.... Spaggage  talk  20:11, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, if you read the rest, Toraen's math was wrong. First of all, interrupting a 1/4 sec skill is educated guesswork, since the fastest attack activation time is 1/3 of a second, longer than it takes to use the skill. Secondly, I'd recommend that you read what Toraen did, namely GWW's critical hits miltiplication table and Izzy's base critical hit rate to realize that the actual chance of rupting a res while autoattacking is about 85%, in other words very reliable. If you used skills for 3 attacks, it would be almost 95%. Read above for the entire conversation proving this... <font color="Blue">My2Cents 20:20, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Or you could bring Dshot and have a 100% chance+disabled for 20 seconds. Its possible to predict a 1/4 based on recharge btw.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 20:33, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * We have told you repeatedly that random interrupts are not good, and hard interrupts are far more powerful. D-shot's disable effect wins games actually, and just because you beat people in RA with this does not make it a good build (interrupting rez sig without a disable means they can actually just recast it immediately). It's amazing what can win in RA, since people tend to be terrible there. You are also underestimating the power of secondary utility (and Apply Poison), Rangers aren't restricted to monk as their secondary. AP is 8 dps to their entire team (x4=32dps for 7e every 26 seconds) that can cover your team's more dangerous conditions. This build would be a lot better actually if it used a different prep (even RtW) and d-shot. Again, I'll say that your math doesn't show that this is a good build, merely that it has a higher crit chance than I initially thought, and that doesn't make up for the loss of hard interrupts, skill disable, secondary utility, and ability to pressure the entire team. This is why ranger w/bow > assassin w/bow. Toraen   talk  20:36, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Dshot wins GvG and other high-end pvp, but RA is a different game, and dshot isn't as good. If you get close enough to accurately disable 3/4 second skills, you'll just get mobbed. And don't glorify AP, 90% of RA builds have self-heal or condition removal, and poison isn't gonna do anything. But I don't disagree with you, this build lacks a hard interrupt (although pretty hard against 2+ sec skills), but it gains higher survivability vs melee, extra spike dmg and dps, and heavy pressure against injured targets. Spamming needling on a monk <50% is usually very effective. You can also stop sin spikes easily, and be a general nuisance to anyone spamming skills. I don't pretend that it's more effective at interrupting key skills, but I think that the pros outweigh the cons in a good many situations. <font color="Blue">My2Cents 20:52, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * No D.Shot mainbar in RA? Making your enemies Resurrection Signets/key skills (Palm Strike is a good example, completely shut the sin out by D.Shotting Palm Strike then move onto the next target) take 20 seconds to recharge is good. Selket Shadowdancer 21:07, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Alright, it's true you can shut down a skill with dshot, but this destroys the sin's combo too. Rupt HotO or Falling Lotus (or really any combo skill), and they're shut down for 12 secs. And, you can interrupt other skills immediately instead of waiting for the 10 sec recharge on dshot. <font color="Blue">My2Cents 21:31, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The problem is you are doing all this for loads of "random rupts" when you can take two proper interrupt skills (with good play they will be all you need) and then devote the rest of your bar to other things on a ranger (poison spread, more damage, energy denial, condition removal, blocking are only some of the amazing things you can have on a ranger), also, if your target doesn't get below 50% health (and vs anyone halfway good they won't) you will be firing arrows measily slow and practically won't hit anything. And then there's dshots (and magebane's if you brought it) skill disable effect... face it rangers are by far much better than using this. [[Image:Frostysig9000.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> the <font color="Blue">Admin 21:43, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * "Random interrupts" isn't all I'm doing this for. Keen arrow regularly hits over 100 dmg, you crit well over half the time (gaining 4 energy each time), and you keep classic Ranger bow elites. Rupting isn't the only feature of the build, its an added bonus to a flexible bar. <font color="Blue">My2Cents 22:02, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * How is a turret that provides damage and random interrupts better than a ranger who can also provide damage, precise skill disabling interrupts, team wide degenerative pressure and forms of defense such as condition removal? Honestly, a ranger can do what you are doing with much more effectiveness and sustainability. If this works for you in RA then by all means keep using it, but it will not get vetted past a general ranger since it is inferior to one... [[Image:Frostysig9000.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> the <font color="Blue">Admin 22:09, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * This is better because it provides much more damage than a normal ranger. Hitting 100+ bow attack followed by interrupts every second or two is very powerful. Yes, it doesn't apply poison, but 4 pips is hardly "team-wide degenerative pressure." Lyssa's Degenerator does that, poison doesn't. You're ignoring the fact that this has a higher marksmanship attribute than most rangers (thus more damage), arguably better e-management than expertise for fewer runes, and is a great spike assister. Other rangers simply don't have the damage to pull all of that off, and in the short RA/AB battles, damage is really everything. <font color="Blue">My2Cents 22:21, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Rangers do interrupts and have the most overpowered 4v4 skill, this does interrupts. Pz. Rawrawr Dinosaur 21:11, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Episode I: The Phantom Funkopotomis
i can count pretty high. 1..2..3..uh..umm...longcat? Funkopotomis 22:24, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * What? <font color="Black">Drah <font color="DarkRed">Mc <font color="Black">Ninja  22:26, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Episode II: Attack of the Admin & Co
well despite everybody telling you the reasons why it isn't better than a ranger, you have managed to shrug through them all, bravo, lets see where the build goes from here. <font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> the <font color="Blue">Admin 22:28, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Alright, what seems to be happening is you present an example, I present a counterexample, then you repeat your first example again. Will you just tell me why damage+many random interrupts is necessarily worse than less damage and fewer but more accurate interrupts? In RA, I think damage wins. <font color="Blue">My2Cents 22:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * So are you saying its ok to take a bad build into RA over a better build because the players there are bad? Damage and utility wins, builds like Burning Arrow Rangers (old build but still a shining example) bring both good damage, condition spreading, and hard interrupts from just four skills leaving much more room for Mending Touch, Troll Unguent, etc. When you have PvP slots there's just no good reason to take this over a Ranger bar, especially when Rangers have better armour aswell. Selket Shadowdancer 23:07, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm saying that a build tagged for RA should take RA's gameplay into account, and should be more damage-oriented. A BA ranger usually hits about 50 with BA, whereas this build usually hits over 80, with longer burning. BA also lacks a 100+ dmg skill, and constant blocking (although yes, it can have condition removal). This build's focus on damage makes it more viable in low-end pvp. <font color="Blue">My2Cents 23:17, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * You're forgetting the utility of spreading poison and burning around the entire team at will. Not to mention that your build only does 26 damage a hit with needling. You'll only do big damage "IF" you critical on Keen Arrow. The whole concept of the build is random, and relies on its randomivity to be good, which is where it fails. Constant blocking? A half decent Mesmer or Necromancer will soon see to that by ripping your enchantment off. You still have no reliable hard interrupt in a build focused on interrupting, aswell as a slow firing rate until your foe is under 50% health to interrupt in the first place, not even taking prots into account or armour level. This isn't a new concept, it's a pretty old one, it's been done and dusted many times before. Selket Shadowdancer 23:39, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I haven't had it stripped, but regardless you can just as easily say that a sin with wild strike will remove your blocking stance. We can't be prepared for everything. And mes/necs will almost always target casters for enchant removal. Needling damage isn't for damage, it's to prevent dying enemies from healing themselves. And keen arrow has over 60% to crit, and recharges every six seconds, so it's not a big "if." Not to mention the large damage from your elite critting. And you don't seem to realize that this build isn't entirely focused on interrupting, its focussed on damage and, as a bonus, will interrupt well over half the time you attack. It may not be a new concept, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work. <font color="Blue">My2Cents 23:58, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Firstly, just because you haven't been hit with rend doesn't mean you'll never get hit with it. If rend was so rare, dual attunement would be meta still.  Secondly, just because you crit more often with Keen Arrow doesn't mean Rangers aren't allowed to use it, and are thusly excluded from the damage it deals in that situation.  Thirdly, many Rangers (especially in an RA environment) will run builds with +13 ranks in Marksmanship.  Just because wiki builds tend to favor lower ranks to allow for higher Expertise ranks doesn't mean ALL Rangers run that way.  As for the merits of this build within an RA environment, I'm sure you've had much luck with it, I'm not in the least surprised.  That doesn't make it great though.
 * I've actually fought this build a few times while running my Ele in JQ. Once I realized his build, it wasn't hard to cast in between bow attacks.  After all, without IMS, the best you can manage outside of Needling Shot is one attack every 2 seconds (which won't happen, because Flat Bow w/o RtW doesn't work, and Shortbows aren't practical).  Cycling Mind Blast, Immolate, and Burning Gaze gave me all the healing I needed (via buffed AoR) to stay above 50%, and kill the A/R (several times).  The only time I've had trouble with this type of build is when running another physical character, and that's a given.  Then again, lol at 1v1.Kammorremae 07:43, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the Table of Contents Kammorremae, lol'd for a while. I'm realizing this build doesn't have a chance, but I'll answer a few of your arguments. First, dual attunement is no longer viable because casters are targetted for rip,etc, rarely sins. And I realize Rangers can use Keen Arrow, but they'll rarely get the crit (~12%?) so its not really viable. 13+ marksmanship would also probably hurt their damage output more than 13+ expertise (except prep shot). And it's too bad crappy sins run this (it wasn't me, I've been RAing/HAing), because a decent sin would have timed the shot to coincide with Mind Blast or Immolate's recharge, and should have been able to disrupt a good number of attacks (especially with Mel's, which I use). This isn't necessarily a great build, but you wouldn't even vote good? Average? <font color="Blue">My2Cents  23:08, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It's a "clever" build. I like builds like this.  But cleverness does not a good build make.  I think the main problem you're having is that performance on paper does not reflect performance in the field.  For instance: the odds are redunkulous, but it's possible that someone using this build fails to land a single crit durring the course of an AB (providing GW doesn't have a streak-breaker ala CoH).  Certainty out-weighs chance 90% of the time.  I certainly don't feel as harshly as others here, but that's more than likely because I've not seen it pop up as many times as they have.  I think you'd be better off trying to make an A/R sniper that does massive damage, and leave interupts out for the most part.  Ultimately, even if this gets voted down, again, go with what works.Kammorremae 23:31, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Episode III: Revenge of the Variants
Yeah, I think I felt pressured into rupting just because it's a ranger build, and I couldn't pass up the bonus on crits. Any ideas/changes that would make it more viable? Or just drop it? <font color="Blue">My2Cents 23:45, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Different prep? Hunter's Shot in place of Needling?  IMS?  Self-heal?  I'm not the best person to solicit advice on Rangers from.Kammorremae 23:52, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * timed interrupts will always be better than untimed interrupts, and critbow is generally a poor concept because sins lack an IAS and rangers lack an IAS usable by other primaries --<font color="Green">Oj <font color="Green">▲ <font color="Green">mo  23:54, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Most Rangers substitute IAS for compression via cast time, no reason an A/R can't do the same and be equally effective, in that regard. Keen Arrow->Melandru's Shot->Savage Shot works just fine in lieu of IAS.  I do agree with timed vs untimed, fyi, but I think we're moving away from that at this point.Kammorremae 23:59, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I guess Crit Strikes/CE is viable in place of Expertise. I can't think of a better preparation though. I don't think apply poison is really worth it in RA/AB, since the games are so fast, nearly everyone has a self-heal, and there are only four players. Any other suggestions? <font color="Blue">My2Cents 00:07, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Apply Poison is for pressure. You're trying to work out a spike, so yes, leave AP out.  RtW makes for better accuracy (I miss the +dmg).  I'd sort out your elite pick first, and figure out what your changing the name of this build too before you go too much further.Kammorremae 00:12, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I can figure out the new name later. Does the elite need to be pinned down? I feel like this could work with multiple elites, at least BA and Mel's. And RtW is mainly for turrets, this build doesn't really need it (especially not with a recurve bow). <font color="Blue">My2Cents 00:22, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * If this build isn't a turret, what is it?Kammorremae 00:25, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I mean turret as focussed primarily on interrupting, as in magebane. That's really the only place RtW is entirely necessary. <font color="Blue">My2Cents 00:33, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Could try something like this:

[build prof=Assassin/Ranger crit=10+1+2 marksm=12 beast=8][Way of the Master][Critical Eye][Disrupting Accuracy][Tigers Fury][Melandru's Shot][Keen Arrow][Distracting Shot][Resurrection Signet][/build]

Selket Shadowdancer 00:38, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow. I like that more, just wish we could fit crit defenses in. Do you think this build would work with BA too? <font color="Blue">My2Cents  00:46, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Melandrus is better for an Assassin I think. It's less energy intensive and supplies a snare. Selket Shadowdancer 00:50, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, although I think crit strikes provides more energy than you first think (test it maybe?). I'll make this main bar and see if anyone likes it any better. Thanks for the help. <font color="Blue">My2Cents 00:52, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I've done Burning Arrow before. You very quickly run out of energy if not used wisely, especially when running health runes. I think the bonus damage and snare is more beneficial. Selket Shadowdancer 01:07, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I fixed up the usage a bit though you might want to add the links etc. Also I'd look at the equipment section aswell as you wouldn't take just a vampiric bow on its own etc. Lastly I removed the tag, it's different enough now to warrant at least another look, even if it gets trashed. Selket Shadowdancer 01:13, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

The same build as before, only with IAS. Dshot doesn't trigger through the prep. --<font color=Orange face="Comic Sans MS">Shazzy diddles 01:42, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * As long as we're agreed that the focus of the build isn't interrupts through DA, I think this is decent for pooping damage in RA. If you spike with Keen>Mel's>Savage you'll probably get disruption on one of the first two shots and the third is guaranteed. I'd like to see d-shot on a bow user, but you'd pretty much have to drop DA for it and go prep-less. You'd have to drop Tiger's if you wanted a prep again (Rapid Fire?). Build needs a name change btw. Toraen   talk  02:21, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Is it true that dshot doesn't trigger through prep? I'm fairly sure it does. Anyway, dshot or savage? And Rapid Fire isn't worth dropping DA imo, not with Tiger's Fury. I'll fix the build name once we've got the whole thing sorted out. <font color="Blue">My2Cents 02:27, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * No, d-shot's disable will only trigger if DA doesn't trigger. That means you might as well just run savage. Rapid Fire + Distracting Shot over Disrupting Accuracy + Tiger's Fury can be a variant though. Toraen   talk  02:30, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

[build prof=Assassin/Ranger crit=12+1+1 marksm=12][Melandru's Shot][Keen Arrow][Savage Shot][distracting shot][Rapid Fire][Critical Eye][Way of the Master][Resurrection Signet][/build] ftw--Relyk 02:48, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It's a variant right now. If you're bringing Rapid Fire though, you might as well bring Burning Arrow since Crit Strikes will get you excess energy from IAS and cheap attack skills. <font color="Blue">My2Cents 02:59, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * spam savage shot more :D, u still need snare especially without the utility a ranger gives--Relyk 03:08, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * So, anyone else: main bar? <font color="Blue">My2Cents 03:21, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I think thats a decent bar, I agree with putting that forward as mainbar. Rapid Fire is a faster IAS than Tigers Fury aswell. Selket Shadowdancer 16:21, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Funny, I actually thought about suggesting Rapid Fire last night, but never got around to coming back to post that. Good times.  Anyone care to update the main page?Kammorremae 19:15, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll mainbar Rapid Fire. Any final suggestions before testing? <font color="Blue">My2Cents 21:28, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Just general tidy up now. Selket Shadowdancer 22:34, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Be my guest, I don't know how this process works. Thanks so much for your help btw. Feel free to move to testing whenever you think it's ready. <font color="Blue">My2Cents 22:35, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd add the Competetive Missions tag, I can see this being handy in JQ and Aspenwood (if you're Kurz).Kammorremae 22:54, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Episode IV: A New Hope
So coming back to this, this build has really turned around from a bad build to one that seems to be effective. The only downside i can see is the lack of blocking stances for when you'd need to use Rapid Fire/Res Sig. good job turning it around.-- Ikimono <font color ="Teal">Needs more Paragon 23:17, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * GJ everyone else ;)...anyway, I miss Critical Defenses too, and if I ran this build in RA I'd replace one of the rupting skills with it. I'll put it under variants. <font color="Blue">My2Cents 23:22, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Gonna go test this in RA for a bit.-- Ikimono <font color ="Teal">Needs more Paragon 01:33, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Wasn't too bad, but i suck as a bow role.-- Ikimono <font color ="Teal">Needs more Paragon [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png|24px]] 02:14, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Tested too, very nice damage output but vulnerable without a monk. Still, most builds are in RA. <font color="Blue">My2Cents 02:52, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I think BA>Mel's in RA.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 03:47, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Oh well, guess it's screwed anyway. Too bad people don't even seem to be looking at its skills. Take Reason.decrystallized, who said it lacks defense (Critical Defenses in variants?), utility (2 rupts and a snare?), and IAS (Rapid Fire in the main bar??). You don't have to vote high, but please take the time to look through the main bar before posting your vote? It's kind of embarassing... <font color="Blue">My2Cents 00:15, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * i laughed at the votes, but tbh, there isn't much reason to use this over a ranger in the end--Relyk 00:56, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * oh god those votes are terribly off. I'm not sure but i think this may be able to spam arrows more due to Critstrikes giving +4 energy every 1-3 hits + constant IAS. Only reason why i wouldn't run this in the future is cause it doesn't have the poison that most rangers have, which causes general energy problems with monks if they try and remove it.-- Ikimono <font color ="Teal">Needs more Paragon [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png|24px]] 01:56, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah spamming is easy, I've been running for a while. I would normally agree about the poison, but in RA/AB monks will usually either PnH it or ignore it, and throw in a Patient Spirit if you get too low instead of constantly keeping up with -4 pips. You do have bleeding though. <font color="Blue">My2Cents 02:06, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Episode GTFO:ups
Only time a sin bowuser was ever even remotely useful was when IA had a 3 second recharge so you could spread big degen and random rupts to 3 people. even that wasn't too good, but this is pointless. Why not apply poison pressure and bleeding and cripple and stay alive? oh right, coz you want critical hits in a build that isn't actually big domoge if every hit was critical? Go Glass Arrows for that? GG. and "I would normally agree about the poison, but in RA/AB monks will usually either PnH it or ignore it, and throw in a Patient Spirit if you get too low instead of constantly keeping up with -4 pips." is the biggest pile of fail in the world. its not -4, if you're good its -7 with bleeding. and cripple, and saying pnh will take it off is like saying that DW is pointless coz they can pnh it off... and it poinsons every hit so they'd still lose. Name one thing this has over a ranger other than overdependence on an enchant to add "that BIGass domoge" that doesnt actually exist coz just crits for 2 skills and primary sux. energy gain is equivalent if not worse to expertise. doesnt add -4 to like 3/4 members of the other team with will cover any conditions your team applies. so yeh. name me one? go on. a real good one that means that this is better than ranger in anyway shape or form. and remember, rangers have more armour and blocking. Exo Oo 16:31, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * You mean apart from 90+ damage from Keen Arrow on an unprotted 60al target? You can probably put that into 100+ with a vampiric bowstring and 15^50 inscription. Rangers can't take advantage of Keen Arrow like Assassins can, throw on the IAS and this can be pretty decent in low level arenas. This can spam its skills much more actively aswell. I'm not saying this is great, but it has its merits. Selket Shadowdancer 16:57, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Errr becoz that damage from keen makes up for a bad bar? no. There's a chance rangers can crit keen as well, but tbh they'd probably take hunters to spread degen and also blocking. this has no decent merits. and everythign works in lower arenas, and by that you mean ra. rangers can actively use skills as well, get low and use zelaous then swap back Exo Oo 19:56, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but about 3/4 of your argument is glorifying -4 pips of damage across 4 people. Really doesn't to much. DW is useful because it spikes 100dmg instantly...which poison would take 10 seconds to do. To your other points: try covering conditions with Melandru's? Since Mending Touch is meta, it would be much more useful. I think the reason this is better than a classic ranger is that it has much more damage than a ranger. If you spike with Keen->Mel's->Savage you can hit over 200 dmg with crits over 2 seconds. The spike recharges every 8 (Keen even shorter). Rangers really can't do as much damage, and damage matters more than -4 degen in RA/AB's short battles (where most have self-heals). Additionally, this really doesn't lose much utility (besides -4 degen): it keeps interrupts, and if you want blocking, take Critical Defenses in variants. <font color="Blue">My2Cents 21:28, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * lol. uaresobadcomingfrommethisis. Arrows, lets be honest, can be blocked either by stance or guardian (use stance > guardian) and poison makes monks waste energy. and don't say it doesnt, because it does. bleeding is conditional. The degen is > a little bit extra damage using a bow. and if u wanted damage, go glass arrows no?.......... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzExo Oo 16:10, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 4 pips across 4 people is 32 passive dps at little cost, honestly there isnt much reason not to take it. also, besides the fact that FOR FUCKS SAKE RANGERS ARE UTILITY NOT HUGE DOMAGES, this build sacrifices ALL of a ranger's self defense and most utility for a small damage boost, and actually probably does less damage if you maintain poison on 2-3 people. there is no reason to take this over a standard ranger. --<font color="Green">Oj <font color="Green">▲ <font color="Green">mo  22:49, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * True, poison causes decent DPS if maintained on 2-3 people. However, it's very low pressure DPS that's easily healed. Spike damage is much more useful in low-end PvP. Blanket statements like "rangers are for utility not damage" just hurts the class; this ranger maintains utility and damage. I don't think that an extra 8 pips of degen is really better than a 100dmg Keen every 6 seconds and a 200+ dmg spike possible every 8. Degen just isn't that useful. If you complain about self-defense, take Critical Defenses which lasts longer than Ranger stances. If you're worried about blocking, meta stances last only a few seconds (just time your spikes) and you can easily take out guardian with dshot. So for fucks sake take utility+loldmg over utility+8 pips of degen. <font color="Blue">My2Cents 20:29, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
 * you are srsly fucking clueless aren't you? Exo Oo 20:42, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
 * No offense but underestimating the power of simple poison spreading leads me to believe we are never going to convince you a ranger is better than this. Taking this into account, have fun in guild wars, but we can't help you here. [[Image:Frostysig9000.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> the <font color="Blue">Admin 20:45, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Call me a noob, call me bad at GW, but please don't call me clueless or that I'm underestimating anything because, unlike you both, I went to Nameless and tested both this build and the Mel's Shot Ranger build on PVX. This build did over than 10 dps more than the Mel's Shot Ranger did (even while keeping poison on both targets). Additionally, spike damage is more powerful vs healers. So you're right, Frosty, championing simple poison really isn't going to convince me this is a bad build. <font color="Blue">My2Cents 23:40, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
 * If you're comparing spike damage, compare it to the Omegaspike ranger tbh.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 23:53, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Similar, but this has snare and more crits and more spammable Keen. And better energy management. And an IAS. <font color="Blue">My2Cents 00:00, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Btw, poison is 32 DPS in a 4 man arena. Stand around and Dshot shit and you win.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 00:05, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Assuming you play a winning team, aka one that has a monk, you'll probably want to stay mostly targeted on him to dshot (and savage) important skills (guardian, woh), and spreading 11 second poison on 4 people kind of hurts your ability to do that. <font color="Blue">My2Cents 00:13, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * lolcampingthemonk, this is where I don't bother responding again and let action take it's course. [[Image:Frostysig9000.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> the <font color="Blue">Admin 00:18, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You're right, I guess spending 8+ seconds spreading 11 second poison to everyone is the right thing to do. Three seconds on the monk should be enough to keep him from healing your degen. Or not... <font color="Blue">My2Cents 00:25, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * it takes 3 seconds to spread poison cross 3 people :/ and poisonous bow string. just shoot the guy again if monk removes--Relyk 00:37, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 3 seconds for 3 people if you want to randomly blow your rupts...plus I'd think you'd want Zealous bow string for energy. <font color="Blue">My2Cents 00:53, 3 May 2009 (UTC)a
 * Recurve bows have a 1.6 second refire rate with a 33% IAS. 6.4 seconds to spread degen on everyone.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 00:57, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 2.4 fire rate without IAS...and the Mel's shot build on PVX doesn't have an IAS...thus it is 8+ secs even when using Hunter's on someone. <font color="Blue">My2Cents 00:59, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Savage and Hunter's Shot are actually used to help spread poison. You can also use Melandru's shot for this. You also don't need to sit in zealous while doing this. Toraen   talk  01:00, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

For further information on how to use a utility ranger, see Guide:Generic Utility Ranger or User:Crow. Toraen  talk  01:04, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, this build here isn't a utility ranger. Stop arguing about poison spread vs. mini-spikes. Turret rangers didn't spread poison either. They did have easier interrupts, but interrupts are still fine on this, and perma-33% IAS pumps damage. Turrets did have room for utility though (flail wasn't entirely needed iirc). This requires 2 slots to make energy management effective, but it also ups the damage. Discuss moar nao. Toraen   talk  01:16, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Bit confused as to whether you like this build or not but oh well. Mel's turret has RtW to help but perm 33% IAS is worth the damage + energy gain for this build. On nameless it was much easier to spam attacks with this build's energy vs standard Mel's, but I recommend you try it for yourself. <font color="Blue">My2Cents 01:35, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I have no idea whether I like this build or not. I haven't tried it, probably won't as I don't have a PvP Assassin (and my PvP ranger doubles as a mule for equipment upgrades that I'm going to use one of these days). It looks like it could be effective at what it does (at the sacrifice of utility), so I'll be on the fence forever probs. I don't get to say much since I fail complements of fractions (his calculations when applied to your build agree with you, I tried to do this by memory and failed epically). Toraen   talk  02:01, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. I believe I'm the only one to have actually tested this build, so it makes me frustrated when others talk about it's DPS, etc. I'd encourage anyone to just load the bar and play a few RA matches before blowing your mouth off/rating this. Thanks to Toraen for not doing so. <font color="Blue">My2Cents 02:07, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Using it in ra doesnt prove anything--Relyk 02:13, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Proves a hell of a lot more than theorizing about its DPS. And its tagged for RA, so what do you want to do to test? <font color="Blue">My2Cents 02:17, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * ^agree &rarr;<font size=3 style="font-variant:big-caps;font-family:Mufferaw;6px"> BERKS <font size=1 style="font-variant:small-caps;font-family:Verdana;6px;">deedle...   dum... |undefined 02:36, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

--Relyk 02:45, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * But...I theorized about its damage and utility on paper! <font color="Blue">My2Cents 13:30, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Episode VII The Revenge of the Elites
You can use all sorts of elite skills to go with this kind of build such as the famous "Barrage". For Cm you can use Barrage+Sharpen daggers to inflict massive damage while spreading Bleeding and and high damage from Critcal hits. Although this build does not provide as much DPS as a Spliter Barrage Ranger in CM it does provide intuption. It's a ok build if you use more surviabilty such as Critcal Defenses and Shadow Refuge.. Elf 66.194.217.223 18:21, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * just how old do you think that idea has been around and how many times do you think it's been trashed.-- Ikimono <font color ="Teal">Needs more Paragon [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png|24px]] 23:21, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * ^^ Very old idea, lol. The main point is it's not ever going to be as strong as a Ranger is now Way of the Assassin has been nerfed. Rangers have better armour, expertise (and related skills), runes, and better universatility than an Assassin ever will with a bow due to having no fixed secondary proffession. Selket Shadowdancer 04:03, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Archival
to store the epic failure of this discussion and use as an example to new comers to the community 04:42, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Not really fail, 2cents just exemplifies poor reasoning surrounding the implementation of a failed concept by functionality induced from inferiority to one of the primary game aspects of a primary profession--Relyk 07:59, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * In short "He Fails. As does Torean for agreeing with him" because this whole build is based around keen arrow.Exo Oo 10:28, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Toraen fails for admitting that, since he hasn't tested this build, he probably can't accurately judge it? Exo, it's difficult to take you seriously. Aren't you the one who said that 100+ dmg from Keen and a 200+ spike is "a little extra damage" than normal Rangers? Have you ever played a Ranger? <font color="Blue">My2Cents 13:56, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * lol. Why do you seriously continue this conversation? Yes it's a little bit extra damage. Becoz if a ranger hits a crit its the same fucking damage (oh w8, less) and can be blocked pretty easily. Condition pressure + domoge is better than just domoge with bows. DO NOT CONTINUE TRYING TO SAY THIS IS EVEN HALF-DECENT Exo Oo 16:32, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but a Ranger will hit Keen 1/10 times, this hits more than 6/10. Don't try to compare them. Don't complain about blocking (dshot anyone?). Condition pressure just isn't very powerful (a war with Lion's Comfort will just use it once every 10 seconds and be fine, etc), and switching targets every few seconds stops you from disabling important skills. Stop championing poison and tell me why this is worse than the Melandru's Shot Turret rated "Great" for RA. <font color="Blue">My2Cents 17:28, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * FUCK ME! YOU JUST SAID DON'T BOTHER COMPARING THIS TO A RANGER. WTF ARE YOU ON?! IF YOU WANT BIG DAMAGE GO USE A FUCKING SCYTHE OR SPIKE THEM WITH DAGGERS. WHY USE A BOW FOR LESS OVERALL DAMAGE THEN A SCYTHE, WHILST TAKING NONE OF THE EXTRA UTILITY. fuck me, it's like punching a brick wall Exo Oo 17:53, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I do disagree with you on condition pressure. It is very powerful, even in RA. It wastes monk energy and pressure on an entire team means more spikes will go through. I've used condition pressure in RA and various other formats to great effectiveness (and I am in all honesty a terrible ranger). Also, Lion's comfort is an easy interrupt, but it doesn't matter since the warrior isn't even your primary target for most of a match. Toraen   talk  17:57, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You can also still hit key skills while cycling through targets for poison. Don't use an argument that relies on poor skill. Toraen   talk  18:00, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Cool it Exo, use your brick head. I said don't compare Keen on ranger to Keen on this since this is over 50% more likely to crit. And Toraen, maybe you've been with different monks, but usually the one on my team won't bother healing anyone above 1/2-2/3 health, even if their bar is green, and will just remove daze/blind/dw (maybe cripple). They're usually under too much pressure to worry about bleeding/poison, and won't waste energy on it unless they're <50%. And I'm saying that if you're keeping 11 second poison on 4 people you will miss 3/4 second skills that you need to catch (WoH). <font color="Blue">My2Cents 18:13, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Poison will force the monk to cast. It and the bleeding you can inflict should also be used to cover other conditions from your party. You also don't need to hit their very first WoH. It's nice if you do, but the game will all but end once WoH gets hit with Dshot. Camping a target (like a monk) means that a lot of your damage will be mitigated by a good monk through stance blocking chained into guardian. It also means that the opposing mesmers and necros will hex you into uselessness unhindered. Toraen   talk  18:25, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

"if you're keeping 11 second poison on 3 people you will miss 3/4 second skills that you need to catch (WoH). " ur fuckign terrible Exo Oo 18:26, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry if you didn't understand what I meant. If you're keeping 11 second poison on 4 people you will either miss the monk's important skills or not be able to do any pressuring beyond poison. AKA no damage. If you want you're build focussed on degen, I'd recommend running Lyssa's Degenerator, which gets -10 plus energy removal. And Toraen, it would be amazingly helpful if you hit their first or second WoH because your team is under a great deal of pressure too, and games don't last forever. <font color="Blue">My2Cents 18:37, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You don't do no damage while spreading poison, fyi. Savage should be used to interrupt and spread in one hit, so it's bonus should trigger most of the time. Hunter's/Melandru's/Burning Arrow all have unconditional bonus damage. It adds up across multiple people, and it is a lot harder to heal and prot multiple people at the same time than it is to prot and heal one person who everyone is trying to camp. Learn to pressure effectively. If the interrupts disable their main offense/shutdown (which are mostly >1sec base casts), you can take your time in d-shotting WoH for a much more relaxed game. Toraen   talk  18:43, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Well whether you use original build or new version, you only have 1 skill with 1 second activation. Savage may get an interrupt, but you'd be much more useful hitting an important monk skill with it rather than quickly flipping through or hoping. Poison will cause less pressure to a monk than spiking with the damage this build creates. <font color="Blue">My2Cents 18:57, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Changed
requested a vote wipe on AN, now it's a ba turret that still has the 33% ias and hopefully enough crits to do = or more damage than old BA turret. <font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  17:44, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * just tested this new change and it really isnt that bad, definitly not 0-0 worthy [[Image:Muffin.jpg|19px]]<font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  17:52, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * no, it's more gimped. loses keen arrow which was the point of the shit build, and now uses ba without any extra utlity they usualyl have. i mean you could take glass arrows for domoge if you wanted to, but oh wait, your dumb enough to use a sin primary Exo Oo 17:55, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * ok 1, exo ur a trolling dick, 2 this build doesnt even crit that much so keen sucks (random full damage semi-spikes ftl), 3 glass arrows is inferior to a BA turret (which is why old ba turret doesnt run glass arrows if u havent noticed), and 4 ranger ba turret is nerfed and since this build's gona be deleted anyways i changed it. [[Image:Muffin.jpg|19px]]<font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  17:58, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * ye tested again, does not crit that much. If it did crit that much i wouldn't be short on energy even when using savage sparingly [[Image:Muffin.jpg|19px]]<font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  18:02, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Well over half your attacks should crit, with an IAS you should be fine (or at least I was when spamming BA and Savage on Zaishen). <font color="Blue">My2Cents 18:10, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * no seriously i tested it and energy is ruff, does not crit as much as i wanted it to(which is why i dislike keen on the bar for spike) [[Image:Muffin.jpg|19px]]<font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  18:11, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * That's partly why we chose Mel's, but even so I don't see how bad the energy could be (are you using Zealous?). I'll test when I get out of HA. <font color="Blue">My2Cents 18:14, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * no i was using vamp, and if using mels, the spike is weak which is why ppl were raging about running crit scythe, daggers, ect [[Image:Muffin.jpg|19px]]<font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  18:15, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * so i guess if I auto attacked alittle here and there i can gain back my energy relatively quickly [[Image:Muffin.jpg|19px]]<font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  18:16, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Wow. you call me a trolling dick? look at yourself. you're tying yo say this build is decent yet you also say it doesn't often crit and energy is ruff which is the only reason you would ever ever want to use this bar Exo Oo 18:24, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Does the word "damage" mean anything to you? You seem to be ignoring the whole "killing people" part. <font color="Blue">My2Cents 18:30, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * He's saying (and said earlier) that critscythe is a far more viable damage build than this is. Toraen   talk  18:32, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * ...to which I reply (as I did earlier) that this keeps a snare, interrupts, and skill disabling. You can't have everything. <font color="Blue">My2Cents 18:41, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * then take a ranger numbnuts Exo Oo 18:50, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Ugh. Rangers don't have damage! This keeps key Ranger elements (Mel's, rupts, disabling) and sacrifices poison in order to generate much more damage than a Ranger primary. Hitting 100+ every 6 seconds is worth losing -4 degen. <font color="Blue">My2Cents 18:59, 3 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Why would a Ranger using BA hit less than a Sin using BA? --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  19:05, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Look at history, talking about using Keen Arrow with sin vs ranger. <font color="Blue">My2Cents 19:08, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * MY2CENTS WHY DON'T YOU JUST STOP TALKING ON THIS BUILD PAGE COMPLETELY BECAUSE YOUR IDEAS ARE WRONG AND POINTLESS. BOW CRITS ARE NOTHING SPECIAL TO BE PERFECTLY HONEST. YOU USE 2 SKILLS FOR JUST CRITS. HAVE NO UTILITY. HAVE SOSOSO EASILY PROTTABLE DAMAGE THAT IS BETTER ON GLASS ARROW RANGER AND LACK DEGEN OF A NORMAL RANGER. WTF IS YOUR ARGUEMENT THAT THIS IS GOOD? MELS RUPTS AND DISBALING IS NOT KEY ASPECTS OF A RANGER. IT IS UTLITY. THIS HAS NONE. SO GTFO THIS PAGE AND STOP ARGUING THAT THIS IS WORTH IT. LOOK AT THE SIZE OF THIS PAGE. AND THEN LOOK AT THE SIZE OF YOUR BRAIN. big difference /endrant Exo Oo 19:20, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * oh. and "Well whether you use original build or new version, you only have 1 skill with 1 second activation. Savage may get an interrupt, but you'd be much more useful hitting an important monk skill with it rather than quickly flipping through or hoping. Poison will cause less pressure to a monk than spiking with the damage this build creates!" this is wrong. oh so wrong
 * Please sign Exo. Saying "wrong" doesn't prove anything. Define what you mean by utility. And please don't arbitrarily define the "key aspect" of a class, the idea of Guild Wars is to combine objectives of different classes. <font color="Blue">My2Cents 19:36, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * fuck off. by definition, it's what everyone else means when they say those words Exo Oo 19:40, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Exo you seriously need to chill out. If you don't feel like you're getting anywhere then you're probably not, and to be honest, the way you're acting, I'm not surprised. Raging isn't going to solve anything, simply cast your vote and leave it at that. Selket Shadowdancer 19:51, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Exo is against this? Oh, well then I'm for it (w/e it is). [[Image:KJ needed a new sig....sig.png]] <font face="Arial" color="gray">19:53, 3 May 2009
 * Now we're as cool as gamependium!!!! [[Image:KJ needed a new sig....sig.png]] <font face="Arial" color="gray">20:02, 3 May 2009
 * KJ ur for this? u is bad then. Exo Oo 20:14, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * luke is perfectly justified in raging at a user who can't read what people are saying. He's still trying to explain stuff to the guy ^^. rangers do a bigger spike than this and more damage with bow in general, so none of 2cents arguments are plausible--Relyk 20:31, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Relyk are you honestly saying that standard rangers do more damage than this build? I highly encourage you to just load it onto a sin and play it on nameless for two minutes before responding again. This kills targets about twice as fast, maybe more. Please don't talk about builds you've analyzed on paper. <font color="Blue">My2Cents 20:35, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Never, EVER try to justify an arguement based on isle of nameless. i can get a derv to kill a 60AL dummy in a couple of hits. but its would suck bnecause it's easily rended/rupted/kited etc. doesn't make it good Exo Oo 20:43, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You're right...which is why I've played this in all three situations it's tagged for. How many have you played? I'd say nameless is a minimum req for commenting on a build. Have you tried it? <font color="Blue">My2Cents 20:57, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * testing in those places is useless. it must have solid and correct theorycrafting to determine if it would work there. you're theorycrafting, frankly, sucks. Worse than mine usually does. Exo Oo 21:14, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Only...I played it in those places before submitting. I have a hard time believing that you tested it before claiming, say, that it output less damage than a standard ranger. You either can't play it (unlikely, its pretty easy) or just didn't play it. <font color="Blue">My2Cents 21:22, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * How is testing a build in the areas it's tagged for useless? The logic behind that just doesn't make sense. Selket Shadowdancer 21:40, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Because RA is completely team dependent. ou can run mending HH and get 10 flawless.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 21:44, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * ...which is why you need a lot of testing. Theorizing doesn't do shit. You need to play the build to see if it works or not. <font color="Blue">My2Cents 22:00, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "Wow. you call me a trolling dick? look at yourself." Calling a build decent =/= trolling. Trolling=strong negative comments directed at users in order to evoke a emotional response, which you do alot. Stop violating NPA plz. Btw this build does the same damage or more as a regular ranger in the same 10 second interval which is what i meant as decent-->the fact that a sin using a bow can match the damage of a BA turret. [[Image:Muffin.jpg|19px]]<font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  01:14, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Frankly I don't think BA/Hunter's is as good as Melandru's/Keen but I don't really care any more. <font color="Blue">My2Cents 02:14, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Obviously you cant play standard rangers from the statements I've seen across this page. Please play a standard ranger and respond after you've l2p guildwars--Relyk 02:47, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * keen = random damage due to slightly above 50% crit so it's < ba/hunt [[Image:Muffin.jpg|19px]]<font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  02:47, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

pwnage muffin, you're agreeing with him as well? wow you're good. you are trolling, as is my2cents. becoz who cares if you're sayingthe build is good, because it is in fact a pile of shit. Why are you two making this page sososo much longer and full of more stupid crap? Exo Oo 08:12, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * clearly anyone that disagrees with you is just a faggy troll that lives in their mother's basement. really, you're always right. --<font color="Green">Oj <font color="Green">▲ <font color="Green">mo  19:01, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * loluagreethatthisbuildisgoodExo Oo 19:10, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * please note that i am pointing out your faggotry, and not in fact defending the build. --<font color="Green">Oj <font color="Green">▲ <font color="Green">mo  19:58, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * but it's wrong fgtExo Oo 20:01, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

WIKIDRAMA! <font face="Arial" color="gray">17:18, 4 May 2009
 * this page hurts mah scrolling finga, and is 67 kb long--<FONT COLOR="#347235">|[[Image:Hipowi_sig.jpg]] Hipowi  pew pew pew </FONT> 20:09, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * lol exo doesn't know what a troll is. [[Image:Muffin.jpg|19px]]<font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  20:21, 4 May 2009 (UTC)