Archive talk:A/W Unsuspecting Wastrel

Discuss. I haven't tested. I doubt Unsuspecting and Wild Strike can be activated fast enough to get to HotO in time to 1/4 knock. 21:48, 14 January 2009 
 * Fox Fangs? &rarr; J.J.  berks   (contrib)  22:00, 14 January 2009 (EST)
 * Yes, Fox Fangs. Idk how to link it to wiki and I'm too lazy to figure it out. [[Image:Shino sig.png]]22:02, 14 January 2009 
 * Fox Fangs &rarr; J.J.  berks   (contrib)  22:02, 14 January 2009 (EST)
 * Ah, I see. [[Image:Shino sig.png]]22:03, 14 January 2009 

Lotus Strike as offhand and Falling Spider? - Star Seeker  09:30, 15 January 2009 (EST)
 * HOTO is 12 second recharge so the lower cooldown on falling spider wouldn't really make a difference.. Gringo 10:37, 15 January 2009 (EST)
 * I tried it with Unsuspecting -> Falling Spider but you can't use the chain at all without Wastrel's if you use falling spider. [[Image:Shino sig.png]]10:53, 15 January 2009  10:53, 15 January 2009 (EST)
 * Oh wait...I understand what you're saying. Poison will be negligible degen because the target will be pretty much dead by the time you use Twisting Fangs. [[Image:Shino sig.png]]10:54, 15 January 2009 
 * Okay. With an IAS, you should be able to get two attacks in before he stands up after Wastrel's knockdown, so you could take Falling Spider instead of Wild Strike. Would that net more damage? Just spewing ideas eh, too lame to do math right now c; - Star Seeker  17:03, 15 January 2009 (EST)
 * It would because of degen but adding Falling Spider means you can't execute the chain unless you use Wastrel's. [[Image:Shino sig.png]]17:07, 15 January 2009 
 * Ah yes, forgot about that. - Star Seeker  12:29, 16 January 2009 (EST)

ok ok so you use up your elite on a skill that guarantees a knockdown if used correctly which SCREAMS for starting the chain with a falling offhand attack and then you start with...unsusp strike? that's quite a waste of an elite imo, and besides we already have good working wc builds on the wiki that are less energy intense. I Predict A Riot (zomg!) 09:10, 16 January 2009 (EST)
 * Um....it's not a waste. Unsuspecting doesn't snare so the KD prevents kiting and then you just KD them again with HotO. If you're not a retard, you should be able to get to HotO in time to prevent kiting. What's the benefit of starting with a falling attack over Unsuspecting -> Wild? This chain also uses the same amount of energy as the old SP Trampling Sin build.....which was vetted as "Great" if I recall. This build doesn't even have energy problems if you make sure your character has at least 35 energy. 66.250.190.114 09:27, 16 January 2009 (EST)


 * so why not using falling -> hoto right from the start? falling offhands are > unsuspecting or any other lead hand attack because you can execute your generally more powerful double hand attack faster by skipping lead hands. Additionally, it offers bar compression and leaves skill slots to e.g. ias/dash combo AND makes the whole chain less e intense. The sp trampling sin was great because by that time you didn't have any better way to apply cripple than using black mantis. And by energy intense i don't mean that you will get problems executing your chain, but you will get problems if the fight lasts longer than expected. In this case, shorter chains are generally in favour of your e pool. I Predict A Riot (zomg!) 10:09, 16 January 2009 (EST)
 * No. [[Image:Shino sig.png]]10:39, 16 January 2009 

Funny, I was using this exact bar for some time after the WC buff & didn't post cuz I thought ppl would QQ over no falling after WC, no IMS, etc. Good build. - 420  14:13, 22 January 2009 (EST)

TBH...
this build sucks, why taking a leadhand attack and waste a slot? i agree with the other poster above me. <font color="Darkblue">Looks like Breitschleif
 * You're going to have to elaborate more on that. This isn't meant for GvG or CM or AB where dash would help. This is RA. Unsuspecting allows for the combo to deal more damage. I know it's not the best build but it's not utter crap. [[Image:Shino sig.png]]<small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="papyrus" color="black" variant="small caps">10:39, 16 January 2009 

By taking Wastrel's, you in essence have a 100% snare for 2 seconds, this means you don't need a snare in your chain so you can take big damage attacks (Unsuspecting), I would prefer Fox Fangs in as the off-hand as the likely hood of removing a stance with it is low an the by taking fox fangs you decrease the chance someone has to kite after the first KD <font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> po!  11:32, 16 January 2009 (EST)
 * Infact with Fox Fangs you Q-Knock ;o [[Image:Frostrage.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> po!  11:34, 16 January 2009 (EST)

Only problem with unsuspecting is that it 1) has no snare 2) is conditional. WC takes care of both of these, making the would be powerful unsuspecting, powerful. 1) It snares 2) it allows for quick engagement and a larger range to move to in quicker time, preventing enemy health loss before your chain. I would like to see anyone argue that unsuspecting is not good when its effects are applied, unless you can show me something else on a sin chain that hits for +100 damage. Disciple 16:45, 16 January 2009 (EST)
 * I'll put Fox Fangs in as the off-hand. Anything else I can do to improve the build? [[Image:Shino sig.png]]<small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="papyrus" color="black" variant="small caps">18:43, 16 January 2009 
 * Ummm nevermind someone did it. Lol [[Image:Shino sig.png]]<small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="papyrus" color="black" variant="small caps">18:45, 16 January 2009 

this is so brave :>, also just to elaborate on why using Unsuspecting - Fox Fangs is much better than a falling attack: Just because you have a KD doesn't mean you should start you chain with on, the only time I can think of a perfect chain that uses a falling attack to lead is in a BB sin, but with them you have Twisting and BoS (which makes up for lack of damage). In here using Falling spider and your first attack means that your limited to a 4 attack chain, which needs a second KD to provide disruption, meaning you chain will be lower down on damage. By taking Unsuspecting - Fox Fangs, you not only massively increase the damage of the chain but you create a perfect knocklock (which doesn't even need qstepping for) and you make your chain usable outside of Wastrel's (IE for some reason you miss Wastrel's collapse and get no KD, you can still spike)

All in all using a proper 5 attack chain brings up the damage of the chain, and makes yourself not so reliant on Collapse. <font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> po!  09:52, 17 January 2009 (EST)
 * Automatic qknock beats all shitter arguments above. Have a nice day. - Misery  Is  Friendly  [[image:Misery Dog obaby.gif|19px]] 10:02, 17 January 2009 (EST)

Wastrel's Worry
I suppose you meant Wastrel's Collapse, edited it. BTW, nice build, but I personally prefer the previously posted variant. --Luuck 03:53, 18 January 2009 (EST)
 * This build isn't a variant of anything and nothing is a variant of it... [[Image:Shino sig.png]]<small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="papyrus" color="black" variant="small caps">10:05, 18 January 2009 

leaping mantis sting
would be nicer than a snare every 20 seconds--<font color=#585858>Relyk <font color=#66CCFF>_||_ <font color=#333300> I hammers u! 05:33, 19 January 2009 (EST)
 * It lacks the pure power of Unsuspecting. Which is one of the main features of the build. [[Image:Shino sig.png]]<small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="papyrus" color="black" variant="small caps">10:26, 19 January 2009 
 * Kiting ftw, and jungle strike would probably make up for it--<font color=#585858>Relyk <font color=#66CCFF>_||_ <font color=#333300> I hammers u! 02:32, 22 January 2009 (EST)
 * yea kite during knocklock k? Outside of your spike it would work but Unsuspecting does like 130 damage on crits, thats sexy. [[Image:Frostrage.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> po!  03:11, 22 January 2009 (EST)

i ran this before with 3 KD's for perma knocklock. had a higher chance to kill but had more energy problems Chaosforce 21:20, 28 January 2009 (EST)

aww mah gawd i luvz dis build and would like to fellate the poster <font color=#669900>ƃuoן sı <font color=#996 600>ʇɐɔƃuoן  19:25, 29 January 2009 (EST)
 * Ur kdlock takes 20 sec to recharge, lms recharges in 10--Relyk 23:15, 1 February 2009 (EST)
 * +100 damage is good. A monk using patient spirit while he's crippled bringing up a big heal just before you finish your spike isn't good. <font color="#AA0088">Invincible  <font color="#AA0088">Rogue [[Image:Invincible_rogue_siggy.jpg]] 00:17, 2 February 2009 (EST)
 * Killing a monk on downtime is good tho--Relyk 01:48, 13 February 2009 (EST)

OwFj0xez4OTQ2sCb8hwkYGf+HA copy and paste that and make good use of that first KD_Flesh Atrophy

Total Damage
How Much? Amor 12:18, 3 February 2009 (EST)
 * pretty standard sin 5 chain damage rly [[Image:Frostrage.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> po!  12:20, 3 February 2009 (EST)
 * Hmmph, I was expecting faster instagib from unsuspecting tbh Amor  12:59, 3 February 2009 (EST)

if you do get the bonus from unsuspecting strike, you'd spike to up to 85-95% of their HP depending on their runes and armor and other extra factors e.g. skills which increases damage intake like frenzy / primal rage. if you want some numbers, im bad at em so .. sorry. whats instagib anyway ? --Lusciious 04:24, 12 February 2009 (EST)
 * Like kill, and yea you can't really give numbers in sin spikes other than, lot o domage [[Image:Frostrage.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> po!  04:26, 12 February 2009 (EST)
 * 198 skill damage+21 vamp+DW+avg 13-14 damage=317+dw+bleeding+knocklock means swd--Relyk 04:33, 12 February 2009 (EST)

This chain...
Does it seem very similar to a raptor attack? *teleport-unsuspecting-knockdown-ripoffarm-runaway*--70.105.78.133 22:50, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * surprise attack->big damage->immobilize->fatal blow--Relyk 23:23, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

CM
IMO it's a great build for in JQ, can take down solo cappers and the haulers easily, the cappers with the regular chain and the haulers go down pretty quick with some spamming of Unsuspecting Strike->Fox Fangs->Twisted Fangs and it's a lot more fun as the overused capper and monk builds. 86.91.148.163 11:13, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Wild Strike
Much better than fozes obviously, no reason why anyone would ever run foxes. So dumb that people have voted for this when it is clearly not the most effective bar possible.I heal if you shut it 01:37, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It's for quarterknocking off WC. [[Image:Zyke-Sig.png]] 01:47, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Epic theorycraft fail. [[Image:BaineImg.jpg|19px|||My Talk]] BaineTheBotter  10:00, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * What, the quarterknocking? Cos if so, no it isn't. Wastrel's --> IAS --> Unsuspecting --> Fox Fangs --> Horns will knocklock, provided you can trigger the Wastrel's properly. Spaggage  talk  10:23, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * wat -- <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Frosty  <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Mc Admin  10:59, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * UM yeah...this build can 1/4-knock but only if you use Fox Fangs. Which is unblockable (Same as Wild Strike without the fact that it removes stances) so you're sacrificing a little damage for a faster attack and a 1/4-knock. Whoever voted on this last dropped it from Great to Good. Assholes. 71.255.229.218 20:23, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually they didn't it's just our vetting policies new break points for Great and Good. -- <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Frosty  <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Mc Admin  20:28, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I see. So, in essence, a build has to be perfect for it to be in "great?" lol 71.126.187.165 18:32, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * has to be meta--Relyk 11:52, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

(re-set indent) ZB Natural Stride monk isnt tagged as meta.<font face="Old English Text MT" color="navy">Flesh Atrophy    17:34, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Should be, when I do see a monk in Ab, that build is quite common. But keep that discussion to that discussion page tbh.[[Image:Signature-Liger414.png|19px]]<font color="SaddleBrown">The Liger <font color="Darkgoldenrod"> speak to me  17:41, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

This
Should be in great. Cake Archer 23:17, September 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * should all 460 damage chains be in great? Gringo 23:21, September 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, what (non BB) chain does more dmg? Especially considering you can uns > fox fangs after inital spike. Also, this won HB finals Cake Archer 23:44, September 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * der u go, frosty fixed so now its 5-5 Gringo 23:59, September 30, 2009 (UTC)

Unarchived
Inreality, this worked in any lol level PvP area, so, yea, unarchived etc etc. --<font color="Black">Frosty  16:59, November 7, 2009 (UTC)
 * Woot woot! Spaggage  talk  17:15, November 7, 2009 (UTC)
 * I know this was posted a while ago, but I think it is still relevant in some arenas. Thoughts on unarchiving? Smitysmitehex.png <font color=black face="Lucida Blackletter">Smity Smitington <font color=black face="Lucida Blackletter">!!   on 22:25, April 9 2012 (UTC) 22:25, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
 * i prefer Build:A/E PvP Wastrel's Collapse but enchant strip hurts bad, i dislike unsuspecting but it works. go ahead. &#9823;Fianchetto [[Image:Mending.jpg|19px|link=User_talk:Fianchetto]] 00:34, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Doesn't work as good w/o...
full radiant insignias. 35++e is needed for unhampered spikability and CS is not 100% reliable. I tried both, and radiant version by far is better for camping on vamp dag's and getting chains off w/o any worries about energy. --BlazingBurdy 21:54, November 10, 2009 (UTC)
 * What's a zealous set m8? Vamp dags aren't worth a shit unless you're pressuring or have no emanagement problems, they add like 30 damage to your spike.--TahiriVeila 17:10, November 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with radiant, +30 damage to a spike of this nature is a big deal as it is the difference between killing the target and not --<font face="Poor Richard"><font color="Black">Smity the Smith 09:52, June 3, 2010 (UTC)

vote wipe
Is it possible to do a vote wipe on this since it just came out of archive with an existing vote? <font color=black face="Lucida Blackletter">Smity Smitington <font color=black face="Lucida Blackletter">!!  on 01:39, April 10 2012 (UTC) 01:39, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Why the Hell is this Unarchived?
Smity goes ahead and moves it without discussion and Toraen wipes votes without consensus, what on Earth is going on here? I don't know how he got this bright idea but it was one that is completely idiotic. There was no way this build would have been revetted into PvX seeing that the conjure version is significantly stronger. Can there be like, a vote wipe again or recovery and just put this back in the archived section where it belongs? Or should I just unarchive a build I think is viable now and have it voted by this quality community? <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]   23:29, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
 * this definitely should still be in archive.--TahiriVeila 23:45, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I just figured it'd probably be trashed again and sent back if it wasn't worth it. I didn't even do a real vote wipe on it. -- Toraen   confer  23:48, 10 April 2012 (UTC)