Build talk:Team - FoW Mesmer Spike

well tag
fow caster spike is only rated "good" so tbh this team should be vetted on its own merits, if it is vetted good then merge with caster spike but if it's vetted great then it should either have it's own page or caster spike should be re-vetted. Paranon15 16:15, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Ask for the caster spike to be vote wiped then. This belongs as a variant of the caster spike page as it simply uses a different set of spikers.--TahiriVeila 16:19, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * all 3 of the fowsc builds belong as a variant on one page because they all use the same tactics with different spikers, i dont mind how this is stored as long as it is properly vetted on it's own merits, not put on another page simply because it fits into a catagory.Paranon15 16:22, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

The main team tactics are now significantly modified from the original manlyspike tactics, would be hard to incorporate this into caster spike without seriously changing the page layout.Paranon15 23:19, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I think the biggest difference between this and other FoWsc builds is that this one uses a third terra to clear out forest faster.Yellowsmiley 18:11, 3 January 2011 (PCT)
 * While i have no comment on the merging of all the builds, the t3 role is available to all variations of fowsc, not just this one. We choose not to include it on the other pages because pugs fail often enough that making things take more competence is a bad idea. However, staying alive on a caster spike is considerably easier than manly, so a t3 might be viable for pugs, assuming terras could actually handle the t3 role. Life Guardian 02:47, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
 * in my opinion, the main reason why pugs take so long in fow is because generally one or both of the terras dies, adding the t3 means that there is someone there to cover, but we have also found that this build is a lot better at things like spiking to ToS and killing cave wolf as main team, it is generally done with a minimum of fuss. With regards to the role, i don't see it as being any more difficult that t1 or t2, the only thing that could kill you would be interrupts and glyph is pretty good at stopping those Paranon15 09:10, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The original goal when looking at these bars and its set up was to increase the speed and success rate of FOW PUG groups and whilst there is nothing we can do about simple incompetence or ignorance we have designed a set up which allows for margins of error to occur without it destroying the ability to complete the task of completing 11/11 quests. The greatest issue that was found was the death of a Terra and would often prove problematic in covering in conjunction with an average to slow Forge pop of 13-15 minutes. It was decided to incorporate the T3 to increase the speed of the main team requiring there participation for only one single spike in the Wailing Forest allowing enough free time for both MT and T3 to cover.The bars were not generic spiker bars but designed with a less confrontational set up to compensate for no healer including blindness, slower casting, weakness and interrupts to render them unable to counter attack effectively should the spike go poorly for any reason. I would not comment or challenge on the superiority of these bars to manly as manly is quicker and just as clear but I feel these bars would be more suitable for pugs given this set up with a larger damage range also adding to its benefits. This has been backed up in our tests which have included approximately 50% PUGS to test these bars and tactics from day one. Since the creation of the PVX page is has increased the amount of first timers we can take on one run with a EoE and Spiker video being added sometime within the next 24 hours to clearly indicate how to solo tower, where people should go and what skills are best to lead with in different areas. So far the set up is proving favourable with all who have participated for the reasons it was designed greater speed and cover ability. In a time where I am now seeing pugs doing true duo in the underworld I think players are capable of operating more advanced tactics in basic runs especially with the videos that are accompanying the setup. I feel that this should not be merged on the basis that the set up has been more considered and specific to the area of FOW with its tactics relying on a spiker team that has not only the raw damage to spike but also a great deal of secondary effects which compensates for a lack of a healer which this set up continues to prove in every test we are giving it. If it were to be merged I would suggest it simply replace the Caster page. I apologise in advance if I have not got this discussion indenting down right yet. Manic
 * I must say this is completely different from the caster spike build, because first of all, this one has a T3. If this gets deleted, then atleast give people a proper guide on how to T3, since it saves alot of time. I have tested this build, and imo it really deserves the Great tag more than Manly way, instead of the Good one it has got now. Manly way might be a more pug friendly way because of the common professions, but the survivability is pretty low compared to this. Also, you need a brain for Manly way, which some of those pugs unfortunately don't have... This spike is just pewpewpew & done. Slockiee 17:22, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Rate it then ^^ ,- Konschu [[Image:Assassin's Promise.jpg|19px]] 07:20, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

Some small changes(?)
Great pugfriendly build, altough I would change the terra roles (using a ranger) ^^ & I would also put flesh of my flesh as standard on the es ,- Konschu  19:16, January 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * I like team builds with monks in, because traps suck Kracatoan 18:54, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Since you use casters you shouldnt trigger traps (,- Konschu [[Image:Assassin's Promise.jpg|19px]] 20:05, January 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * adding fomf on es can be an option but not standard. You have enough anti-everything people shouldnt be getting hurt much or need healing, rit should be further back than mesmers are and not at risk of death, if MT has wsr you have an extra res if rit dies, but really... main team doesnt die with this build. Monk would also be rather pointless, as Konschu said, you shouldnt be standing in traps. Ive personally ran this build several times with Manic + mike while it was being made/tested, and it did used to have a UA, but it really was pointless, all the monk did was take quests and leech, literally never needed to heal, so you can like a build with monks in as much as you like but adding a monk is unnecessary :P 81.132.71.137 21:35, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I think, for pug, it should be better as standard, but yh when the mt takes wsr, you should be nrmly fine.. ,- Konschu [[Image:Assassin's Promise.jpg|19px]] 21:52, January 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Taking into account the current FOW Meta consists of only two hard resurrections in the team it would prove incredibly over caution to take any more than two on this set up given it has greater protection from counter attacks than its manly way counter part. The SoS also spends only 25-35% of its time working with the rest of the main team so if any disasters occur the SoS is more than likely going to be saved from the problems and be able to res the rest of the team given its spirit support including two spirits with life stealing and its blindness capabilities. We have taken these bars up against groups unprotected by any main tank and without the support of a healer and have performed well so I believe the correct balance has been found. Your suggestion for R/A and A/E set up is a good idea and allowed us the 15 minute time these bars currently have as its quickest completion time and should be added as a variant for faster or more confident teams but given the nature of the R/A being a user of personal consumables to operate it should be a variant and not the standard. Saying this given the speed of this set up allows for quicker times with greater easy R/A's should use far less consumables and as a result this set up could prove more attractive to do the alternative terra set up for.Manic
 * 2 hard rezzes is ok for me, but there have to be 2 hard rezzes then imo and not hard rezzes in the form of optionals ^^ & yh I'll add the terravariant soon then (= ,- Konschu [[Image:Assassin's Promise.jpg|19px]] 07:26, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

Deletion
Once this build has been fully merged it will be deleted. Frostels 00:24, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
 * If the caster spike is rly a reason for deletion of this page, I think we should vote that page for deletion and not this one, no one uses it anymore anyway imo.. ,- Konschu [[Image:Assassin's Promise.jpg|19px]] 07:23, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * These bars/tactics are different to, better thought out than, and more effective than any of the bars on the caster spike page, i don't see how the best way of organising the fow bars on pvx is to dump all the caster spikes, however shitty the bars are, on one page that is cluttered, outdated and that nobody ever looks at. If all the fow spikes were re-vetted on their own pages then there would only be about 3 spikes worth keeping anyway, stuff like roj spike, shitterflames and splinter spike don't need to be on pvx because they are less effective than the alternatives and nobody ever runs them, but things like glaive spike and mesmer spike should be on pvx because they are the most effective thing to run based on the most recent nerfs/buffs. Putting more and more builds onto the same page is not going to sort out how terribly organised the fow bars are on pvx. Paranon15 17:55, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
 * We should have a glaive, manly & mes, the rest is worth shit and used by no1 these times like para says ,- Konschu [[Image:Assassin's Promise.jpg|19px]] 22:19, January 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Me and some members from DL and a couple pugs hit a 17 minute run :P Its pug friendly (yes the t3 was the pug xD). DJ Aman 05:06, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
 * the caster spike provides an overview for all caster-based teams. Since manlyspike is currently meta for fowsc, there isn't any part of this build that can't already be covered on the caster spike. If you want to make improvements to the FoW caster spike (like removing builds that aren't used very often and variants for esurge and ineptitude), it's better to discuss it on the talk page there. Life is the go-to guy for fow-related crap so you can ask him as well.-- Relyk  talk  23:22, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I honestly wouldn't mind if there were only 3 separate pages. Also, keeping them separate is better for the build packs, which people do download fairly frequently. Toraen TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png]] 23:28, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't have an idea which builds are still used since i don't do fow. if there's consensus that mesmer spike and glaive are the only ones used, I'd be all for it. I'm sure roj spike and shitterflamers need to be archived, just copypaste them to new articles for archiving i guess.-- Relyk  talk  23:39, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I was just going to archive the caster spike page as one thing, and have the new builds separate as per discussion here. It seems the main team in each will be a bit different when all is said and done. Toraen TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png]] 23:43, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Archive caster spike and splinter spike. Vet this as its own build. If someone wants to, we could probably write up a glaivespike and vet that as well. Life Guardian 23:50, 10 January 2011 (UTC)