User:Malokai92/Wiki Drama/Any/A Caster Daggers

Let the shit storm begin! Smity Smitington 22:05, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok, rather pointless, probably a joke, but... Covered with Dagger Spammer and while this is for any profession, better variants, "Designed for use with heroes, if in a real group, use a real build" I was not aware PvX stored inadequate builds.-- Ultimak719  LIKE A BOSS!  22:28, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
 * That build u linked is an assassin only build. Also, that line you quoted just means that it is for heroway, I guess I could rephrase it.  Not rly a joke build, I truly believe this is good... Smity Smitington 22:31, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
 * It may be, I just feel like running a build for your own profession would probably be more effective.-- Ultimak719 LIKE A BOSS!  23:30, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Idk, I mean with monk, u can heal or prot, but heroes do that just fine. You could smite too but it's not that great.  With rit best u can probably do is spam spirits, which heroes also do well, so just let them do it.  Necros might have some options but again heroes do most necro jobs perfectly well (and sometimes better).  Ele has pretty meh damage, could run a support role but heroes support fine too.  Mes is the only one with great options imo that stack well with heroes.  Besides, human melees work great with heroes, and this build does a lot of damage provided splinter and soh. Smity Smitington 23:56, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with you completely on all your points, I was just merely trying to point out running bars for your profession would, hopefully, be more effective.-- Ultimak719 LIKE A BOSS!  01:01, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Dagger spamming with the Critical Strikes attribute allows you to not need energy skills and increases your chance of a critical hit. Use use an assassin hero if this is for heroes, but I hear how their AI is poor. Cuilan 03:19, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Used with heroes, not on a hero (as opposed to using this in a PuG, I'd imagine). You saw the PvE skills right? --  Toraen   talk  03:32, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Did, but considering the silly build idea, I didn't rule it out. Cuilan 19:01, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * pretty sure you can maintain energy without WoftEP, but this works well enough for the task-- Relyk 04:26, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * it helps out with spammage, especially if you bring expensive skills like you move like a dwarf. Smity Smitington 14:27, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Could've sworn I posted this somewhere. [[Image:AsuraSignature.jpg|15px]] Anvil God  zzz... 15:14, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

lol me too...http://www.gwpvx.com/User:Illoyon/any/A_Melee_CasterIlloyon 17:30, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * well, you guys know it's a good build then, rate it up :) Smity Smitington 19:39, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

So much energy management overkill. Life Guardian 10:46, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
 * What do you suggest? Smity Smitington 15:13, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

QQ
Ok, there seems to be a couple extreme voters who appear to radically disagree with the majority here. I'm just asking, are the two complete trash votes really warranted? There seems to be a consensus that at least two or 3 caster professions can benefit from this build, maybe we can more clearly specify which professions should use this on the build page? "Casters dont belong in the frontline imo, they got way much better builds in their own prof. Profs that still could do so (p/d/w/r) already got their specific builds in here", read what everybody else has said, there are good reasons to use this on an Ele or Monk. Smity Smitington 19:51, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
 * The only reason you would run this if you're too lazy to run a real build, otherwise this is inadequate compared to majority of primary prof builds. There are many things humans can do that hero's cant do as well without being micro'd.  And please, tell me the good reasons why you would run this over RoJ/healer or ER prot/nuke(nuking still does good damage in nm). And you can still ball as caster..I do all the time as ER prot. Invinci tank is easier tanking than with my sin. Roland 01:15, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Ppl don't use this because they are lazy, they use it because RoJ/heal/ER ele is extremely terrible with heroes. I understand you have a way you like to play but don't stomp on others. "There are many things humans can do that hero's cant do as well without being micro'd" - yea, including spamming dagger attacks Smity Smitington 03:23, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Melee caster is best caster. True story. Although the mainbar atm sucks ass. Life Guardian 04:00, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I can understand at times that a melee caster can be good, but since when has ER ele been bad? You can run this all you want and i honestly don't care, but this is inferior to majority of primary prof builds and pvx doesn't store inferior builds.  Also, heroes are notoriously bad at positioning skills for max effect which the player can do (hopefully) well. Also, mainbar sucks. In closing, i understand where you're coming from, but think you're wrong. And I'm not changing vote.Roland 09:23, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Why are you running ER with heroes? =\ I agree this is bad in full player teams but for a caster in a hero team you really cant do better than dagspam. And id like to say again that the mainbar sucks. Life Guardian 10:04, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
 * If this is just to abuse MoP/Splinter; why isn't it x/W WWA/HB and IaU mainbar? Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 11:25, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
 * +1 Roland 14:29, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

You wanna know why this is bad? because when i created my pve ele, my first thought was: "wow, now i can use daggers!!!" Geist tha burdill 18:13, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
 * @life: cool story bro, tell us what u think would be a good bar or gtfo? Smity Smitington 14:52, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Dood I suggested probar. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 16:20, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * where? Smity Smitington 16:24, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, same premise but x/W. Up der^ Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 16:37, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh yea, I've done some caster /w melee stuff before. Noway as effective as daggers imo, but it is fun frontlining with frenzy on your monk. Smity Smitington 19:21, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * If you don't have prot spirit and you're trying to ball/tank..you're doing it wrong. Roland 00:00, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * yea when I frenzy I always protect my spirit Smity Smitington 05:49, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Running an actual healer/ER Prot with heroes is slow and pointless, considering that heroes perform much better when you're managing the offense; heroes are typically more than sufficient at keeping the party alive. Monk can run RoJ or AP Caller, and while RoJ can potentially be more effective, neither one will compare to dagger spam with a 10/12/14 smite SoH. Ele is limited for the obvious reasons, and can dish out more damage in the frontline. The "casters are too fragile" argument is mediocre, since assassins and rangers only have slightly more armour, and paragons will have the same assuming AR is used. It's so easy to bring IAU or micro a prot on yourself; moreover, being more fragile will more easily allow you to manipulate the AI to ball up on you. Torean's spirt spammer argument is fair, but most hero set-ups assume a SoS and a Com rit (at least the former), and are easy enough to manage. AegisDok 19:51, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I go rather fast whenever I ER prot because i can overaggro like crazy and then my heroes just roll it all, also without tons of micro my hero can't er prot nearly as well i can or pre prot and honestly, I'd rather tank as a prot in pve. And if you're using discord you should always use AP. Roland 04:54, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * You can massively overagro without wasting a slot on an ER =\. Both ER and ST are hugely unnecessary in general HM pve. Life Guardian 06:43, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * amateur voters are amateur not removing amateur votes is amateur ppl who dont contribute to a bar but complain about it are amateur etc. bunch of amateurs Smity Smitington 06:51, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh, my bad, this probably pumps the most dps ever just like pets and glimmering mark right.. Roland 07:02, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * normally with sarcasm you try to say statements which are incorrect and present them as correct, not present correct statements as correct and end with a trailing sarcasm. Smity Smitington 07:09, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I believe the consensus was that the build was terrible. And if the goal of this is balling, /w with 100b and ww is better. Roland 07:38, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * And bringing up old discussions from 2 years is in no way conducive to discussion other than to aggravate smity.-- Relyk 10:53, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Being called amateur by smity forced me to bring it up. I've already contributed my thoughts various times and am just tired of smity, anyway I'm done posting on this page. I apologize. Roland 20:00, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Just curious, what AP build would ever come close to this in terms of damage output? AegisDok 20:43, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * @roland: I watch you when you sleep. Smity Smitington 23:13, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * See this is why people get annoyed by you-- Relyk 00:14, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * it's good to be annoyed sometimes. Smity Smitington 03:56, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

i realy dont get the point of this who would create a ele to fight like a sin useing daggers? why not just play a proper sin? fire fox 09:21, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
 * the idea is that when you're the only human player in your team of heroes, it's optimal to play a role that draws enemy aggro at melee range so you can ball them up. Then your heroes are safe and can nuke the hell out of the mobs quickly and efficiently. Also the standard dagger chain is largely armor-ignoring AND has AoE - it's quite a lot of DPS. As this is pve, you're not creating an ele to play like a sin. You initially create the ele because you want to play as an ele, roll through NM, invest lotsa time and plat in it or whatever, then realise that the only good thing eles can do in HM is ER prot. Instead of thinking "great, now I have to delete this char so I can reroll as one that can tackle HM content on my own", you run this. Of course it's not as optimal as being a sin, but as it's PvE, 'inferior' builds are still stored because they're the best that prof can run and rerolling is impractical. [[Image:Denardraw_sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Denardraw]] Dêñår  drāŵ  09:54, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
 * also, im just vomiting up the ooints of others. as you can see, this is fairly controversial. [[Image:Denardraw_sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Denardraw]] Dêñår   drāŵ  10:40, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
 * For what reason a person made his or her character is no concern of PvX; what matters are the merits of the build itself. I didn't make my ranger to be a frontliner, but that doesn't make Dagger pet a bad build.  Oh, and it's not just about balling; daggerspam deals damage. AegisDok 11:08, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
 * It deals damage when you have the energy to spam the skills constantly. You won't on a caster. Ranger, yes. Paragon, yes. Assassin, yes. They aren't casters. An elementalist for an extended amount of time due to ES? Possibly. You may not believe it, but there are alot of bars that deal more damage than your daggers when you are balling, which apparently you're not doing. I think the only merit of this build isn't the build, but how people lure with heroes, this is what seems to be judged. This is a really suboptimal bar, there's just so much love for any bar that's this damned generic. 3 skills does not a bar make. How about I make an x/N FoC any bar with FoC and Suffering with 6 optionals? it's all about those skills, not the balling or anything... Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 18:33, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
 * You are just so bad Smity Smitington 19:58, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The irony of smity calling someone bad is just too much. Roland 21:52, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
 * whoru?Smity Smitington 23:04, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm a nobody on pvx, I only came here after i quit gw. I'm Roland, played mostly pvp. Besides being a well-known shitter, whoru. Roland 06:42, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, wotep is more than sufficient energy management (it's actually on the mainbar). I've, believe it or not, used this build without any energy problems; this isn't just theorycrafting.  I don't like this for being "damned generic," but rather for it being an effective build.  RoJ/Earth/Fire/Air doesn't compare, but I suppose you'll just disagree with that.  AegisDok 01:32, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
 * You missed out AP air/earth bars and yes, RoJ is stronger for AoE damage. Explain the reason melee is good for a caster besides damage (that point is moot now). Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 07:53, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
 * You have not made that point moot at all. And we already have explained why melee is good for other reasons I'm not gonna be a broken record here.  And your vote in all honesty should be removed because a) it is clearly an under vote and b) your reasoning is just terrible.  In PvE you can't just reroll.  And your argument about splinter being just as good on a spear is just so goddamn awful, Jai did a beautiful job of explaining why that is wrong when you mentioned it on the talk page yet you still put it into your vote reasoning as if you ignored him or are just completely ignorant. Smity Smitington 21:09, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Balling is hugely overrated and impossible in most cases. With all those spirits, minions, heroes and other crap all running over the screen it's bloody dificcult to maintain aggro only on yourself. Casters don't like being balled, and since when has enemy melee ever been a problem in PvE? Enfeebling, shadow of fear and the illusion mesmer rape the crap out of them, rendering them useless. A better strategy is usually to corner block foes if possible, by setting up some spirits. Btw, since everyone is talking about ER, may I remind you guys that ER is one of the most awesome tanks in the game? I tank Aatxes in UW for Pete's sake. Oh and regarding the splinter argument, heroes do use the skill on minions and spears you know, no reason to rush to the frontline. It's kinda funny because I have this build stored in on my PC for quite some time now, long before this has been posted, but never even bothered submitting it, because it is A GIMMICK.Vorpal  21:33, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
 * the word gimmick is rather meaningless to people who deal with facts Smity Smitington 21:40, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Your point being? Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 21:45, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
 * It's moot. Casters have real-caster damage bars that can exceed the damage of a single-targeting daggerspam bar (DB with only 12 dagger with no crits is weak) oh, I forgot about that... No crit damage on daggers makes jack a dull beanstalk. Add Mark of Pain to a hero, Splinter, minions and you don't need to melee. Won't bother reiterating what Vorple said there^ you are clearly being the dismissing one, Smity. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 23:15, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
 * You still have a problem dishing out continuous DPS at the rate you get from SoH+dagger spam, bar using AP. Monks and necros suffer from this more than eles and mesmers. To a certain extent, you can justify daggers over spirits for ritualist (spiritway and boredom). I'm also not a fan of sw on minions and spears since stuff doesn't explode in the same satisfying fashion. There is no efficient use of MoP invoking minion abuse. Balling isn't that hard except for elite areas where casters are more likely to rush your backline. Also it's an awesome gimmick.-- Relyk 02:57, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
 * And by satisfying fashion, you mean that dagger spam practically doubles the DPS output of splinter weapon, correct? Simple misunderstandings of game mechanics like this should revoke a users ability to vote imo. And vorp, please stop using ER with your heroes, it pains me to know that people suffer from ineffective hero usages, such as thinking dedicating your bar to tanking is better than just pwning the heck out of monsters and disabling the crap out of them combined with basic prots available from heroes. Smity Smitington 04:37, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Splinter's damage is set. It's just a case of how quick it takes to get all the triggers off. If your heroes and yourself wield spears, with the addition of your minions; that's alot of physical packets to trigger MoP. That is all. Minions are a bonus, but 3-5 spears hitting a MoP'd target will deal great damage. Therefore, let's talk about why casters want to get into melee range aside from damage. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 05:36, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
 * theorycraft! it's useless trying to trigger mop off hero autoattacks and minions to get respectable damage.-- Relyk 06:09, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Having two 100b wars indeed trigger alot of damage from MoP when using WWA, but, it's also overkill. Considering it does 1000dmg+ and foes only have 500~. And it's not theorycraft, it's a practice! Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 06:28, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
 * MoP is overkill-- Relyk 06:46, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
 * If one skill out of 64 is overkill then how about this; giving a caster dagger skills is overkill. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 07:00, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not trying to be a bitch here or something, but I just honestly don't get it.. As I already explained, the balling argument doesn't really hold up that well imo, since ER and SoS can both tank the living daylights out of foes and balling just ain't that important these days. I usually AP spike the priority targets (monks and eles) in enemy groups and simply watch the rest go down. The Sin, Warrior and Ranger all have higher armor ratings and skills and primairy attributes which synergise with dagger spam, and casters have none. Therefore, if we are just talking about getting the most out of a build mathematically, it's better to let them handle that job. Since as a caster, you will do shit damage with daggers and are very fragile. Casters already have builds with good DPS, the Mesmer being the best of them, Rit a close second, Necro and Ele in between, and the Monk finishing last. Concerning Splinter weapon, yes it's awesome but it's basically all the damage you are going to do. You're dedicating 1/8 of you team, and the most important 1/8 namely YOU, to just running to the frontline to active Splinter Weapon? Hey it's a good skill, but it ain't that good lol. Heroes use it minions and spears, and that works just fine, I mean if you like it that much you can always bring a second copy. Concerning running ER with heroes, I simply clear Duncan without swap, Minister Cho's Estate, DoA and UW by protting some stuff and laughing my ass for the rest of the ride, nuff said. AP is better for general use though, and in normal mode I run SF. =) Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 09:25, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
 * necros have good dps?-- Relyk 09:38, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
 * AP + MoP is awesome, SS packed a punch but is still decent. It ain't top notch but it's good enough, AP is always good. The reason why I didn't post here before is because I didn't want to get too involved into this, but all I see are the same arguments of you guys. "But it's fun and statisfying to play daggerzzzz!" Wrong, sex is satisfying, this is retarded. See what I did there? What is fun or not is a matter of personal preference, and shouldn't be a factor here. "Casters have bad DPS" also wrong, yes lower DPS than the sin or warrior (except for the mesmer), but AP does the job. "Splinter is awesome!" I won't bother repeating what I've already said. The monk might be the only exception to all of this, but what did you expect from a dedicated healing profession? Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 10:01, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Hey it's not like this discussion has a point to it, get into it more vorpal. AP+MoP as stand alone (not discord) of course?-- Relyk 10:11, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Technically there is no point, because this build is already Trash. On the other hand, I'm bored and you keep replying so I might as well continue. AP-MoP wasn't built for Discord... Lamers started using it because AP+ymlad= synergiez, but it has nothing to do with physical damage amplification. I'd say the necro is the highest damage dealing caster, potentially (AP-MoP-EVAS + Spears). But you still haven't answered my question. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 10:41, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Vorpal. I'm going to address everything you said. Balling/effective pulling isn't important? I would like to see you do foundry rushing into every room, especially the room where the fury spawns while not doing effective balling, and survive. Concerning using AP for awesome damage, that isn't a gimmick? Just because things are gimmicks doesn't mean they won't work. The only real problem with gimmicks is in pvp. Also, melee ai suck in pve, that's why we don't use melee heroes. Dagger spam has shit damage? Dagger spam is 80 aoe damage per about every 4 seconds. That isn't shabby at all. I'm sure everyone agrees that mesmers do have good dps, cause its all armor-ignoring. Necro has alright, then after that it is not that great in hard mode. Splinter weapon is not the only reason we are using this build. It simply synergizes with it and serves as an aid for damage dealing. Skipping commenting on your ER boast... Your only argument in your next rant was that people like this because it is fun. We also like it because it works. AP + mop may be great, but it is all personal preference. If we stored only the best builds for every profession, then this would be trash (well, it already is), but it is a good and viable option.-- Ultimak719  LIKE A BOSS!  10:58, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Votes has shown this build is down into trash. End of story Shadow 11:20, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

I want to vote...
But curse won't send me a confirmation email those jerks... I'd give this a 5-4. Come on. It's original...it's fun. IT WORKS!!! Innoruuk 07:10, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Working does not equate good, anything works in pve. Roland 07:39, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Even builds that blow yourself up work. Due to its purpose it will get a 5 in effectiveness<font color="3333CC"><font color="3300CC">Le Shadow Form <font color="3366CC">Slayer    [[Image:Marker.jpg|17px]] 20:06, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Main Bar
Looking for opinions on main bar. Currently 4 skills seems a little empty. I was thinking about main barring drunken master since every melee build has an IAS, but I don't want to intrude on other PvE skill possibilities. Smity Smitington 04:44, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

I cannot believe i stumbled upon this build!! its hilarious!! a caster playing melee, thats exactly what ppl had in mind when creating their caster toons, to play melee... boy wants to be a girl kinda build... its extremely gay, if u wanna know...But what is even more hilarious is the LINK... the glimmer pet link!! thats some awsome talk page right there!! i wish i was a wiki reader 2 years ago, i would have loved that talk page!! About the caster/melee thing, i just think that the argument "best caster domage" to justify a caster playng with melee its outrageous, because the same argument can be used in 2 different directions: 1-> any primary melee is tenfold better at domages than this, wich negates the "best domage" argument intirely; 2-> if i can play melee on a caster, i can, therefore, play any build on a caster, except that i would be doing a bit less domage (thats what happens with this melee caster aberration, u can use daggers or swords like a melee, but to a lesser extent); in this new light, a caster playing watever tickles his/her fancy, i could easily play, say, as a minion master, coz i have acess to death magic, i could create a bunch of minions (well, only 8 minions, not really a bunch) and then, puff!! use glimmering mark!! wouldnt that be awsome?? c'mon, strike of genius here!! Its a lot better than a glimmer pet, more domages from 8 boners (thats a tricky word right there), still the awsome glimmering mark, and the possibility of death nova aoe nuking, something that the glimmer pet, unfortunately, has no acess to... Now, seriously, creating a caster is suposed to fill the user needs to cast spells, if i feel that my ele/monk/cronomancer is not doing enough domages, i create a new toon, a sin/war/derv... it takes like 2 hours or less to get the needed heroes and lvl to 20, whats really the justification for this?? and dont give me this: "Melee caster is best caster. True story." NO. NO. NO. NO. if this is true, delete all other caster builds rated great, coz they are inferior to this... and the AP argument, where someone asks if a AP can do better dps than this, thats not a real argument, coz the validity for AP relies on team build, not the build itself, if u try and use this on a disco setup, how is this gonna sinergize with discord?? that is the point of AP, the AP sets up the conditions for disco spike and sinergizes brilliantely with it... all in all, this is utter crap, but the link, o my god, thats some serious shit right there!! I want glimmer bone fiends NOW!!

83.240.216.86 10:37, 8 August 2011 (UTC) Enormous

I forgot to say: I watch u when u sleep... 83.240.216.86 10:41, 8 August 2011 (UTC) enormous

-- Jai . -  15:07, August 8 2011 (UTC)
 * Looking for opinions on main bar. Currently 4 skills seems a little empty. I was thinking about main barring drunken master since every melee build has an IAS, but I don't want to intrude on other PvE skill possibilities. Smity Smitington 04:44, 8 August 2011 (UTC) Smity Smitington 14:00, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * GDArmor should probably be mainbarred, or at least high on the optionals list.
 * Sigh... If you had read the talk page (and the build page) you'd realize that none of your arguments really apply to this build, because you're taking the build out of the context it was designed for (hero-only teams, when you're playing on your caster).
 * "Generally, melee builds have proven to be quite effective at exploiting hero AI. Many caster roles such as nuking and healing are either under powered or already efficiently covered by a hero and do not effectively direct hero damage and flow. Dagger spam unquestionably pumps more damage than most all caster builds, and a difference in 10 armor doesn't even come close to cancelling out the huge benefits of pumping damage like a pro."

This page is crap, i keep losing the page everytime i write something in it, cant post like this... ill try to give a response later, jai, if i find time, from my home, right now it keeps deleting my stuff... 83.240.216.86enormous

1-> AP argument: an AP caller is designed with shit like discord in mind, not "pumping damage like a pro", comparing it to daggerspam its ridiculous, its different usage altogether, but still was brought into the talk for some reason, so i confronted the guy (aegisdok) with this fact, and only that, not the dps itself, here is how i put it: "and the AP argument, where someone asks if a AP can do better dps than this, thats not a real argument, coz the validity for AP relies on team build, not the build itself, if u try and use this on a disco setup, how is this gonna sinergize with discord?? that is the point of AP, the AP sets up the conditions for disco spike and sinergizes brilliantely with it..."; 2-> AP is a caster build, works to near star perfection with heros, the sentence "RoJ/heal/ER ele is extremely terrible with heroes.", writen by the autor of this build, reflects in some way the feeling that heros are terribad with casters, wich is not true, there are some good options and the AP build can be run by any caster...also, AP is perfect at "effectively direct hero damage and flow", dont u think? 3-> The "any build" argument: i had to find a way to refer to that glorious glimmer pet build, to wich i was kindly linked by roland, this was my cue, so to speak, but still i can use this argument in a efective manner, although i had, in my previous post, only the intent of trolling the glimmer pet (that is some hilarious bit of theorycrafting right there!); -> using the theme of the build, wich, as u suggest, is "hero-only teams, when you're playing on your caster", and applying my " any build" concept, whats stopping me from, say, play as a warrior?? HBlades ele would be awsome, nice dps, better synergie with mop than this, no need for energie management coz some skills are adren based, the skill ww coupled with HB and mop is the best example ingame of "directing hero dmg", u get a shield for 16 armor and, obviously, there is this litle skill that comes quite in handy when u play high end pve (doa, anyone?) save yourselves... tell me, can u get sy on ur daggerspam?; 4-> "Dagger spam unquestionably pumps more damage than most all caster builds", its actually true, coz those skills are the ones that do most dmg ingame, thats why i said-> delete all other caster builds rated great, coz they are inferior to this...

What i think is dat this build is just a lazy concept, i cant think of any scenario in pve where a dagger spammer would clear an area that a pure caster could not... and in high end, with seven heroes, im pretty sure sy would come quite handy to have, and this does not allow for dat... I remenber seeing jeydra clearing foundry hm without conset with heroes in a link here, and he did not use this, he took advantadge of searing flames (caster skill) and its synergie with tof to clear that 3rd and 4th rooms without needing save urselves or playing melee... Is there a reason to use this in pve with hero team in mind? maybe u want the xtra speed at clearing stuff, but how deep into full game completion would ur char have to be to make it worthwhile? i guess a lot, but at that point, why worry? if u created a pve toon to sc with ur guildies, and now u wanna explore the campaigns and vanq with heros, start over with a warrior, if i had to start over it would be a war... Now, really, u wanna know what i really want?? i want my glimmering bone fiends NOW!!! 95.93.28.59 19:15, 8 August 2011 (UTC) enormous
 * idk if this should qualify as a build. The optionals aren't really adding anything...more like just listing melee PvE skills that have no class distinction. 4 skills does not a build make unless it is all u use, which would definately not be the case here. Only caster using daggers that might make a bit of sense would be a Spirits Strength rit and there u have 6/8 skills mainbared with possible 2 optionals.--E.Snow 19:26, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * It takes someone special to use so many words to say so little. AegisDok 00:44, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Also, I could definitely list SS for rits.  Do you (or anybody) have ideas for elites for other professions?  The bar looks bare but it really isnt as bare as it seems if you actually take the time to read the page and the usage.  You are supposed to choose e-management(s), but it's actually better to provide options instead of just main barring one just to make the bar look "bigger".  As soon as you start putting more skills on the main bar you upset people who like different variants, so the idea is to make a build page which reflects all variants.  The PvE melee skills are a staple of all pve melee builds, so there is really no reason they shouldn't be here. Smity Smitington 00:48, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Tbh, I wouldn't run this on anything but an ele or monk; ele could roll with a conjure, I guess (who really wastes time with MoP/Barbs in a heroway when you have SoH/Splinter?). Monk could maintain SoH, but why anyone would run melee without a smite hero is beyond me. AegisDok 01:01, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Retards aside...
good ppl please vote this build up. Don't let stupid traditionalist with the "but casters are supposed to cast" within the box arguments cloud your ability to objectively judge a build for it's effectiveness (not for it's OH NOES I CANT WRAP MY LITTLE BRAIN AROUND THE FACT THAT THIS GOES FASTER THAT ANYTHING). Smity Smitington 00:05, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * In all honesty, your lobbying is counterproductive to getting the build vetted rather than trashed-- Relyk 03:32, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * You really do come across as a whiny overattached build author. It doesn't help the build when every discussion gets filled with insults (like the ones you've dropped throughout). Calm down and do something else for a bit. This isn't going anywhere for at least two weeks. --  Toraen   talk  03:40, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry this wiki is my entertainment sometimes. I don't really feel like an author as much as a person who submitted a build which several people already use. Smity Smitington 05:34, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

It takes someone special (like in special olimpics special) to judge AP for its DPS; it takes someone very special to not be able to do pve with a ele or a monk on seven heroes setup to an extent where u dont clear a specific area unless u stick some daggers on ur char; i still fail to see what area this setup clears that the same caster wouldnt with only spells; if u intend on doing some xtreme pve with this (doa, UW, watever), with so many casters and urself being one, i fail to see how this is better than the same caster going for secondary warrior and aquire save yourselves; having the author of the infamous glimmer pet call me a retard is also very special, i feel eternally grateful for that... u made my day!! 83.240.216.241 08:18, 9 August 2011 (UTC) enormous
 * If multiple voters suggested using an AP over this, then how the fuck is it at all unreasonable to compare the builds in this discussion? No one's suggesting you 'need' to run this to succeed in PvE; if that were the standard by which builds were judged, none would be stored.  Make an actual argument against the build.  AegisDok 08:26, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

And for those butthurt, here it goes: the build is unconfortable to play, the comunity has voted and it was down voted, DEAL WITH IT!! my prize for the best vote goes for grinch-> " trash; ele sticks to ap, monk to ua, bla bla bla..." 08:24, 9 August 2011 (UTC) enormous
 * It's obvious discussion is no longer productive for the build now that enormous has come.-- Relyk 09:14, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Dok, this is u: "Just curious, what AP build would ever come close to this in terms of damage output"... what more can i say?? u think ap should be compared to a pure dps build through the dmg output prism, thats not what ap is for... and again, the comunity has spoken, not favoured...in my opinion, this is a sad build, sure it pumps dps, but i can bring a moogle from final fantasy, give him daggers and voilá!, instant kills for tha peoples... the vast majority of ppl dont wanna play a fisical in their ele, and if they cant do general pve without daggers, uninstall... 83.240.216.241 09:22, 9 August 2011 (UTC) enormous

Relyk, good news for u: enormous is making this final post, u and ur acolytes can try and up vote on this trash build all u can, im tired of moron builds that are obviously out of place... no more me trolling here, vote all u want and make it go up, real players will never resort to this trash... 83.240.216.241 09:29, 9 August 2011 (UTC) enormous

Oh, and more thing: stop copying efg jack builds, its irritating to see u do copy paste from jack and then vote positive on builds like this... trash is, in my humble opinion, a good place for this build, really... 83.240.216.241 10:09, 9 August 2011 (UTC) enormous
 * Also, enormous, or who ever else I insulted, I don't rly "mean it". Every since I joined wiki ppl have been throughing insults like retard and autist around, so in a sense I'm just trying to reflect the culture which I have learned here, but I'll try to tone it down. Smity Smitington 14:15, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * enormous is a reincarnation of baller for gw. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 15:17, 9 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank u minion, want my T-bag?? 83.240.216.241 16:04, 9 August 2011 (UTC) enormous
 * nty but a riot shield would be nice. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 16:38, 9 August 2011 (UTC)


 * what do u need a riot shield for? u live in london? 95.93.28.59 17:00, 9 August 2011 (UTC)  eno rmous
 * Shut the fuck up people, you're not funny, you're not arguing your point for shit, and you're just making yourselves look even more retarded than you already are. -- Jai . -  17:05, August 9 2011 (UTC)
 * Again, make an actual argument against the build. AegisDok 18:38, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * If u want an arguement against it here ya go...A 4 skill bar is not enough. To get the most out of the dagger chain u need to add to it. For your casters your options are limited.
 * Tbh, the sin mainbar could be 3 skills; CA & CE aren't always on the bar if the player takes WotA. AegisDok 22:19, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Rit=spirit strength which needs a weap spell, most likely splinter weap, then something like asura scan or sight beyond sight....so right there 7/8 mainbars skills...they don't really qualify as optionals..so inturn it's not the same build. [build prof=Rt/A dag=10 cha=11 spa=10][Spirit's Strength][Jagged Strike][Fox Fangs][Death Blossom]["I Am Unstoppable!"][Splinter Weapon][Ancestors' Rage][Asuran Scan][/build]

Ele=now one of your conjures is mainbared. Again you will need something like ascan. Dependent on which element u choose you skills are limited b/c your attri split will not let u put enough into e storage to use high e cost spells. Since earth doesn't have a conjure and since your going for dmg water is out, your left with fire and air. ex) [build prof=E/A air=12 ene=3 dag=12][Ride the Lightning][Jagged Strike][Fox Fangs][Death Blossom]["I Am Unstoppable!"][Shock][A Touch of Guile][Conjure Lightning][/build] or [build prof=E/A fir=12 ene=3 dag=12][Double Dragon][Jagged Strike][Fox Fangs][Death Blossom]["I Am Unstoppable!"][Flame Djinn's Haste][Asuran Scan][Conjure Flame][/build] Mes=has simply nothing to bring to a melee except Illusinary weap. Since IW cancells hitting the dagger chain is unoperable. Mo=obvious coice is smiting yet there are some issues.There are only a few skills that have any synergy with melee. Obviously Soh.. the others required a KD not in the dagger chain so then u have to bring one. ex) [build prof=Mo/A smi=12 div=3 dag=12][Signet of Judgment][Jagged Strike][Fox Fangs][Death Blossom][Asuran Scan][Holy Strike]["I Am Unstoppable!"][Strength of Honor][/build] again now its not the same bar. Nec=Obviously MoP is the biggie so u need to bring some sorta of recharge skill aos or AP ex) [build prof=N/A sou=9 cur=12 dag=9][Mark of Pain][Jagged Strike][Fox Fangs][Death Blossom]["I Am Unstoppable!"][Plague Touch][Optional][Air of Superiority][/build] if using aps u have optional elite...maybe icy veins or grenth's balance. Either way your a necro you have better options. For each class there is a distict build that is different enough to classifies as this (any/A caster daggers) build. All in all to take any of these your opportunity costs are too high. Your missing out on the armor, your missing out on crits/strength, and mainly your missing out on the bread and butter of what casters can achieve.--E.Snow 19:35, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * sigh... I should wait for someone else to jump on this but I can't help myself... Those bars a pretty bad bro.  You have no emanagement.  You wont be able to use dagger skills.  You cast spells which your heroes should be casting.  You cast spells when you should be using dagger attacks.  You are going to get completely exhausted with ele bar like that.  Your vote implies that you think the current main bar is too bare, but then you suggest bars like these...  Also, look up in the previous talk section, I have explained that the bar is not as bare as it looks if u take the time to read the usage.  Love it when these trash voters show their "skill". Smity Smitington 19:47, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * So now u see y the build (caster dags)is sub-par. I nvr said the bars were good...I said they were bad and gave reasons...which u agreed. The synergy casters have with melee is counterproductive.--E.Snow 19:53, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * You are just emphasizing your lack of understanding of the build. It is not supposed to be a caster/melee hybrid.  It is a pure melee build using casters, not because casters are the best at melee, but because melee is great for casters in hero teams.  Posting bad bars to suggest that the concept is bad is bad in and of itself. Smity Smitington 20:03, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Every single one of them had the 4 skills that is the build yes? If that is not the build then whatever is needs to be mainbared. If addition of skills to bar that is supposed to be good as is makes it bad then the build wasn't good to begin with.--E.Snow 20:27, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok, why don't you take a few minutes to read the build page and optionals, yes? Most of the "optionals" you used in those bars do not appear on the build page.  It's not 4 skills and then whatever the heck you want, it's four main skills, an optional or two mandatory e-management skills, then the rest should be skills listed which synergize with the build.  Srsly man how can you participate in this build and rate it when you don't even look at the build page beyond the main bar? Smity Smitington 20:32, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Smithy; this build is not about builds at all, it's about strategy. That makes this build useless, in that it's not about using the dagger skills or sword skills, but just make a page with a massive font saying L2BALL PZ. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 20:57, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * You're definitely right. If you can't ball then it doesn't matter what you run.  I did put some usage explaining a little bit about the concept of balling properly.  And I think that would be a good idea for a guide.  This is a specific build though.  Maybe once this one becomes accepted we can try any/w version(s). Smity Smitington 21:07, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Why are we talking about balling with a dagger build?-- Relyk 22:06, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Because we're all busy trying to find builds that are more optimal to run in a heroway than daggerpsam; it's taking more time than expected. AegisDok 22:24, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Oh my god! u guys are still messing with this viagra build?...unbelievable... still cant do varesh nm with a staff? still unable to capitalize on shiro on a wand? tired of failing master reward in shabek village coz those pesky pirates on the boat wont stop shooting at u? Welcome to casters with daggers. 95.93.28.59 23:31, 9 August 2011 (UTC) enormous
 * or

[build prof=Any/W Sword=12]["Save Yourselves!"][Hundred Blades][Whirlwind Attack][Ebon Battle Standard of Honor]["For Great Justice!"][Air of Superiority][Optional][Optional][/build]

This>daggers.  Minion  01:54, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I mean, in perfect situations and with great microing and clumping, yes, that can be better. Dagger spam is still extremely effective and has it's own set of perks.  A lot of people don't even use MoP any more though man, you don't really need it with dagger spam either.  The fact that you trash this build but think any/w would be a good build to me shows favoritism. Smity Smitington 02:39, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * It's not favourisim... I can't see any use in this "build", as it doesn't really abuse anything powerful (single-targeting daggers, DB's AoE isn't doing much) and a lack of energy. MoP and Splinter are powerful. People don't use this build, so saying "people don't use mop anymore" seems a strange riposte to this bar... It has SY, so partywide invincibility, melee-range so you can ball and cornerblock, with 100b to trigger much more damage than DB could have hoped. No energy trouble, either. It's not favouritism, it's just obvious. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 04:47, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I believe the consensus on the P/W axe bar I submitted was that "sy! is not that important". Things should be dead after one chain with a splinter weapon and SOH!, so not really seeing the need for HB, which is really only over powered with exceptionally large clumps of enemies. Smity Smitington 05:33, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Optionals
Smithy...I have read and reread the talk page and the build/usage page. The only elite skill listed as an optional (aside from spirit strength) was way of the empty palm, which since this only uses 1 dual attack that costs only 5e is pointless. You even asked on this page for suggested elites for each caster. You noted 2 dagger skills for e-management that require being enchanted (might want to change weapon inscription from 15^50 to 15 while enchanted)....so at least one is not optional. So now we are up to 6 skills out of a possible 8. For eles a conjure is mainbared...now your up to 7 skills. We are still missing anti melee hate...i.e. asura scan or an equivalent and an IAS. Half of the optionals listed are poor choices and should not be listed. The necro optional....well no way would I use it over mop as mop is key and heros use it poorly (easier to mainbar and use then to micro)My main point is u havent realized it yet, is that the build as is, is incomplete, and thus sub-par. It needs refining. The optionals as they are need work. You haven't addressed any of the issues in on the talk page yet aside from adding IAU. You simply call ppl amateurs and say they don't get it w/o giving any reasoning. If you want anyone to listen to your opinion on the build it might help if you explained why certain options are good and why certain options are bad if they are not blatently obvious. I'll be happy to address specific issues if u like. --E.Snow 02:09, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Nobody wants to hear my logic man, and it's not gonna change any minds anyways. If you look at the talk page you are correct I really haven't said that much, but plenty of other people have expressed good reason to use this.  Also, there is no reason for me to debate stuff, I have already expressed my views on the build page, and expressed the opinion I hold that many of the people who oppose this only oppose it for anecdotal reasons such as "casters should cast" instead of judging it objectively for its effectiveness.  The thing about elites is that there never really have been great elites for dagger spam in PvE.  Warrior uses an elite that is purely for e-management, as with paras.  Way of the empty palm is huge e-management.  It's not the number of dual attacks you have, it is how often you use them (and offhand attacks).  If way of the empty palm lasts 20 seconds, you can get 5 chains in, saving a total of 50 energy brah, even more if you use golden fang strike.  I shouldn't have to be the only person making the build page perfect as it is obvious that several others use this build, but it could be possible that the smart ppl who use this are actually in agreement with the current build page. MoP could go under optionals, but it really a skill better used by a caster running a caster bar, and it isnt hard at all to micro it.  Also, enchantments are huge in PvE, if especially for melee (strength of honor), so if you arent enchanted when running this, you are doing something wrong.  The optionals I listed are pretty standard melee options. Smity Smitington 02:26, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Although, I agree that there should be even more optionals, mainly primary profession specific optionals. And I would also like to see some more elite options even though there really arent that many cus elites are not what makes dagger spam good.  Hopefully people can get creative and think of some interesting ones.  I liked ride the lightning, but it is just too expensive with the exhaustion (unless you monitor closely).  SoJ is ok I suppose, still wouldnt use it or ride the lightning over empty palm as it always you to spam things like you move like a dwarf etc.  Smity Smitington 02:32, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * As much as I detest it...BiP could always be thrown on the n/rt blood hero for e-management. I don't like way of the empty palm b/c you'll nvr get full effect out of it as things die and you're not always able to complete the chain. My view on microing is this...as a caster front-liner your going to be busy microing prots and weapon spells on yourself so reducing any added microing is going to be a good thing. Tbh I thought double dragon was a decent choice for an elite as it'll +2 to your conjure, it's low cost, and has low casting time.--E.Snow 02:39, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * BiP is zzz, I'd rather fuel off golden lotus and lotus strike. I'd like to stick it back in Trial, set it up like Archive:Any/N Cho's Farmer, and revet it. We can just leave energy management up to the player; have them pick and choose just relying on zealous daggers, bring WotEP if they're bad, using Golden lotus/Lotus strike, BiP, or another form of energy management (soul reaping, ether prism). They have more flexibility with blue bars so it isn't that significant tbh. And fueling SS with splinter weapon is pretty epic. The real issue is vetted this against AP spam, I don't think people understand the pros and cons; you're assuming you aren't using discordway with the build.-- Relyk 04:16, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * ^ -- Jai . -  04:52, August 10 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, this sounds like a good idea. I would obviously agree to bring it into trial and for a vote wipe.  I'll do what I can to bring it up to par. Smity Smitington 05:33, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * In trial now, so just get the rewrite done and I'll vote wipe it. --  Toraen   talk  13:34, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

This is what I roll with on my monk, occasionally throwing on PS or SB. Could be a mainbar for any profession. AegisDok 06:05, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Why are there so many fucking votes on a trial build?--TahiriVeila 18:42, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
 * we just brought it back to trial from testing Smity Smitington 19:20, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

I think the discussion page should be wiped too once the build is rewritten, it's damn confusing having to scroll to the bottom Ananzi 13:48, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
 * How about using the ToC?dur Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 19:21, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Energy
how u maintain??? only question (has to be universal, too. i.e. not tied to primary attributes) gl Minion  03:17, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
 * It must be rocket sceience-- Relyk 03:57, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

yes, it needs more energies... and more rockets "sceience", too... 95.93.28.59 07:21, 13 August 2011 (UTC) enormous, a man of "sceience"...
 * Thanks for your clear, concise answer, Relyk. I was hoping some examples could be given, so we can work out how bad they are exactly. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 11:09, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I already gave examples in my last paragraph. I am quite sure you're competent enough to come up with ways of maintaining energy instead of QQing-- Relyk 21:04, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
 * If you are using other dagger attacks for energy, then you might aswell just autoattack and not use dagger skills at all... This is quite pointless when the only point of this build is to bodyblock foes, which even a caster with spells can do, when wielding a caster melee weapon for cspace. Not QQ, because I won't be running this "idea". I already ball things on my nec as a MoP nuker. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 21:58, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
 * or instead of auto attacking forever before being able to use your chain, you can bring one skill to allow you to spam it (as virtually all dagger spam builds do). You yourself say that anything can ball and body block foes, and make it seem as if that is the only important factor.  As this can "ball things" just as well as anything else, maybe we should look at what it is able to do beyond balling.  Dagger spam is versatile because when things can be nicely balled with out wasting time, it pumps huge aoe with db and splinter, combined with hero nukes wipes out groups quickly.  When things don't ball perfectly as per the majority of instances, dagger spam pumps huge single target by exploiting incredibly fast attack speeds with overpowered buffs like strength of honor, tearing straggling enemies apart in no time.  The way I see it there is really no reason to spend time balling everything perfectly as you can usually catch a mob in a balled position and take out most of the mob in the first aoe spike, and quickly clean up the rest in less time it would have shenaniganing the enemies into a perfect clump. Smity Smitington 04:55, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok. Firstly, any hero team will have Splinter, if they have a rit. That's a cert. So you can forget that argument. When foes are all nice and balled, an AP Earth ele can Churn Earth/EVAS spam, etc. while somewhere on your imaginary hero team, Mark of Pain is thrown onto, or I should say, unto a target, with EVAS using HIS dagger skills, taking the whole mob out. MoP>DB. You use Splinter with a Spear just fine, and your heroes can take advantage of your balling, you can play happy tank while casting your Spells, Chants and other bells and whistles. Do you see now? Sure, you miss out on SoH, but try hitting Master of Damage with your buffs+daggers, and then try using EVAS spam, see who deals more. The closest to compare bar for this is any/A EVAS Spam, due to both being /A. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 09:30, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
 * EVAS will trigger MoP like 3-4 times while the foe is alive, because: 1. The sin doesn't have an IAS; 2. The sin's lead is a skill (Iron Palm), not an attack, and thus will not trigger MoP; 3. If you're not fucking terrible, a mob should be dying in less than 5 seconds, so the MoP'd target will die too quickly for the EVAS sin to autoattack at all. Also, JS>FF>DB + MoP >>>>>>>>>>> EVAS + MoP. Splinter on a spear is stupid because you can't attack nearly fast enough to bring out its full potential. It would take 7.5 seconds to finish a single cast of Splinter, while it would take dagger spa, 3.66 seconds without an IAS, and 2.4 seconds with a 33% IAS. And you're seriously going to compare the DPS of dagger spam to an EVAS sin? Are you mad? Iron Palm>Fox Fangs>Nine Tail is going to be easily less damage than an SoH'd Jagged>FF>DB, and the sustained DPS is absolutely no comparison.
 * Also, it's not that hard to ball properly, especially if there's a wall nearby. Just pull everyone back so the casters ball themselves, and then bodyblock the melees on a wall and spike in two groups. -- Jai . -  14:17, August 14 2011 (UTC)
 * I feel you missed that Excluded was comparing it to evas spam, as in multiple assassins are alive at once possibly triggering MoP/barbs multiple times at once, plus they all divert attention from your squishy assassin. Also you're comparing a single skill [evas] to half a skillbar. [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain  <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  14:32, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
 * This argument just seems kind of moot. We already have a build page for MoP nuker.  Is it a good build? Absolutely.  However, this is a good build too, there is nothing wrong with having options.  Also the main consensus seems to be that monks and eles would benefit from this the build the most.  Rits got it good too cus of SS.  Personally I think demonic flesh dagger spam is sexy though. Smity Smitington 15:34, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
 * EVAS spam is still going to be very inferior to dagger spam for the sole reason that you can't control who the sin targets after its first target dies. In that sense, they're hardly any better than minions at triggering MoP. Not to mention that if you've got multiple EVAS sins (and are using an AP caller), that means you've been killing things one at a time, which pretty much completely defeats the whole idea of nuking everything at once. -- Jai . -  21:37, August 15 2011 (UTC)
 * Minions are still meta, unless you're using EFGJack's wacky TnS hero team. Minions+EVAS spam with spears on all heroes= no need for a gimped phys bar on a caster... That was just for Jai. My actual point was based on point of using daggers as a caster. What is the reason? To be in melee range when using your heroes so you can hold aggro? Deal more damage than RoJ or EVAS spam? Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 23:03, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Daggerspam will tend to pump more damage than RoJ/EVAS spam... AegisDok 23:33, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Within how many casts? Because Jagged has no +dmg and it costs 10e or so per chain, with Zealous Dags. Damage per energy point, daggers lose that. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 23:42, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Energy isn't a problem with WotEP, and it's not like daggerspam really needs another elite. So, one can spam at will. AegisDok 23:50, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Minions are still meta because they're meatshields that blow shit up when they die, not because of roflsynergiez with MoP/Barbs. And again, if you're using AP then you're not playing the game the way that this is meant for, because AP encourages single-target damage instead of massive AoE that spikes mobs, not just picks them off one-by-one with some AoE added in to soften up the next guy. Comparing this to AP is like comparing RoJ to Discord; it doesn't work because they're good for completely different playstyles. The point of this build is to run it with something like RoJway which is designed around a melee player (to ball and tank) and is extremely effective if used properly. If you're using Discord or 7HPS like most other PvE scrubs, then you won't understand any of this and you might as well just call it a day because you're just wasting everyone's time. -- Jai . -  04:39, August 16 2011 (UTC)

current build page
What are you guys thinking of the current page and the bars/optionals etc. ?Smity Smitington 15:28, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm just not seeing why I would run this over my normal SF/SoS build on my ele or rit. The fact that you are a 60AR squishy running up to smack things with sticks and potentially putting yourself into a position to get roflpwned by something in an elite area pushes me away from this. ShinraGuardian 23:13, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Squishiness doesn't really factor when you have prots and/or Shelter. Still, this could be assimilated towards the x/Rt SoS bar. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 23:23, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Heroes tend to do just find at spamming spirits, someone made the argument b4 that you should take advantage of builds which your heroes cannot, hence spamming daggers. Also, you have to make a decision based on the area.  Most of the times prots will be enough to make this work, in which case it is extremely effective through it's high damage output.  Obviously this might not be the best choice in some areas, but that's what the universality ranking is for.  IMO it should still rank 4 at universality cus most places are fine for this. Smity Smitington 03:01, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
 * The ele bar needs a lot more energy management, considering that even with zealous daggers it'll be losing about 2.5 energy per second. Either mainbar Golden Lotus too, or drop (crappy) Double Dragon for WotEP. -- Jai . -  04:42, August 16 2011 (UTC)
 * Would you say WotEP is enough without zealous daggers? Is conjure definitely mainbar material?  What do you think of Ether Prism? Smity Smitington 05:21, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't really know, but if you didn't have other high-energy spells on the bar too, you'd probably be okay. Only problem with Conjure is it means you can't use MoP. If you weren't taking MoP already, then it's definitely one of the best options you can bring. Ether Prism is kinda meh, it might be kinda decent as a tank skill for initial aggro, but the recharge is pretty long and the energy gain isn't that much (and probably will come before the fight even starts, so it'll be wasted). -- Jai . -  13:05, August 16 2011 (UTC)
 * it doesnt matter if your a 60ar squishy when everything you touch disintegrates within 3 seconds. oh yea, prots and IAU! helps too. Also, what sh!thead would run this in an elite area? you have specialized builds for those--Bluetapeboy 05:27, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
 * There are no specialized builds... Using this in elite areas isn't worth the effort-- Relyk 07:40, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
 * i meant team builds -__---68.227.202.246 17:18, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

@Vetts

 * Just because there may be other effective builds doesn't mean this one isn't. You're comparing apples to oranges. Different usage, different purpose.


 * This build is actually, contrary to popular belief, good for some professions. Especially in HM. Elementalists, for example, are at a disposition in HM seeing that all enemies have extra armor to elemental damage. Conjure X can be taken out and an ele can do more consistent dps with daggers.


 * Universality is very open. Make it as you wish, as long as core part of build is there. You get the shitter-easy dps from Jagged > Fox > DB, which is more than enough damage to be effective.


 * Because some skills such as SY aren't in use, seeing that it is already, impossible, doesn't mean the build is bad. If they couldn't use it from the beginning, it holds no validity in an argument. (i.e. SY)


 * Casters can be put on the frontline. It's PvE. As it is you have IAU and Prot Spirit. If you're still worried (which you shouldn't be), use armor runes. kthnx.


 * Jagged Fox DB Chain is NOT low dps... unless you are god awful at 123123123. Which in that case, play a different game.

Thought I'd just clarify. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]   01:33, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
 * They usually have same armor against physical damages so might as well use conjure for the extra +dmg it gives otherwise i agree with everything else 65.191.246.62 02:49, 24 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Please cut down on these stupid tangential posts. You aren't addressing any actual issue with the build. --  Toraen   talk  15:52, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Never has a man said so much to mean so little. Has a point, though. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 18:31, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
 * "wichever hand is NOT in ur cock " is mildly confusing. Kracatoan 20:17, 24 August 2011 (UTC)


 * This trolling instance itself, on PvX, is what makes it a 4 out of 10. Proper spelling and grammar would also boost the vote. I did like your vocabulary in some parts. Altruistic and amplificate were some above average words, which, while beneficial to your post, did seem to stick out for me. I'd give you a 5/10, or a 1/2. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 21:48, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
 * This trolling instance itself, on PvX, is what makes it a 4 out of 10. Proper spelling and grammar would also boost the vote. I did like your vocabulary in some parts. Altruistic and amplificate were some above average words, which, while beneficial to your post, did seem to stick out for me. I'd give you a 5/10, or a 1/2. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 21:48, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Ty for the up in the vote... as for my grammar, i tend to shorten some words a lot, also, im portuguese, so mispelling may occur every now and then... and this was a long post, but not a troll one, like the other...  Geist tha burdill  Enormous 21:54, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Oh, nicely done relik... ur the carebear, now? i just wonder, why dont u remove my vote, also?? is it because it fits ur purpose of lifting the build? for the sake of vetting, lets not remove enormous five/five?...  Geist tha burdill  Enormous 21:59, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I can assure you builds would be vetted just fine without your assistance with voting or making any contributions. In fact, it would be better if you didn't vote.-- Relyk 22:13, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I wonder why everyone suddenly cares about a build's rating. It's a war without a reason. <font color="FF6600"><font color="Red">Le Shadow Form <font color="Green">Slayer   [[Image:SFS C-Ribbon.jpg|15px]] 20:23, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

It's funny seeing people qq in their votes. I forgot how super serious this is. Roland 20:30, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

From AN
It has been brought up on their talk page, and yet they will not change votes. it doesnt matter what the fuck your class is, dagger spam has high DPS and deserves an atleast a 4-4 rating, i mean, look at dagger spammer for derv and paragon: http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Any/A_Caster_Daggers --Bluetapeboy 20:05, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I disagree with you, a profession is created for a simple reason in my opinion. Next time when I look for monks they all go daggers. Nty, just create an assassin <font color="FF6600"><font color="Red">Le Shadow Form <font color="Green">Slayer   [[Image:SFS C-Ribbon.jpg|15px]] 20:16, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I have no issue with martial classes using daggers, that has been proven effective and they can use parts of their primaries to benefit with daggers. Casters have no such luck. There are better options for caster primaries than dagger spammer. Just because of high dps means nothing, otherwise flare spam would be 4-4'd also. Casters were made to guess what..cast(I know a shocker).  You do not need to be melee to get through the game, my 5 casters are proof enough of that. There are more than enough good caster builds for pve. Professions should be based around what they are designed around unless their primary benefits other builds more(such as necro and ele healers), otherwise | This would be good. I mean OMG it has massive health, HB, fuse, and hex removal!!!! It must be good and should be 4-4'd. /end sarcasm Roland 20:48, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Flare spam does not produce comparable damage output. It does not matter what casters were "made for."  Yes, running dagger spam on a caster concedes that A-net has totally screwed up this game, but that is not a reason to downgrade it, for it remains an effective build.  Your warrior healer is a strawman; we're not arguing that running builds that have nothing to do with the primary profession is a good thing.  We're arguing that running this particular build is a good thing.  "You do not need to be melee to get through the game."  You do not need to use skills to get through the game either.  What's your point? AegisDok 21:31, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
 * The more you post, Roland, the dumber you make yourself sound. :( -- Jai . -  03:54, August 27 2011 (UTC)
 * The more you vote, the more you make yourself sound dumber. <font color="FF6600"><font color="Red">Le Shadow Form <font color="Green">Slayer   [[Image:SFS C-Ribbon.jpg|15px]] 07:00, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

this is stupid
melee = high dps, caster = decent dps, more utility. no reason at all to mix them up. this build will work shit in HM if you have a 60AR caster running into enemy melee. so stupid. if you want high damage on a caster just bring SoS and stop making gimmicky things/messing with normal game functioning; casters cast, meleers melee for a good reason.--Saxazax 02:47, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Sadly, in a 7 hero setup, you can actually do something like this with only minimal loss of effectiveness compared to a melee profession doing the same. Splinter+SoH amplify your damage by so much it doesn't matter that you only have 12 ranks instead of 14-16 in your weapon. Any prot you need is also easy to take and you would take such prot even on a >100 AR warrior (and it's pretty easy to bump up your base AR to a decent level). Melee simply does the most damage in this game. Even a caster using Jagged-Fox-DB will outpace the damage from any 'caster-based' build. We don't vet based on whether casters should cast or not, we vet based on whether a build is effective at what it does. This build is stupid as hell, shouldn't be allowed to work, and I don't run it, but it remains effective at c-spacing things down. If melee heroes were at all competent, this build would be 0-0-0 across the board though, because then you could actually outsource this to them to take advantage of better attribute levels, an open elite slot, and a useful primary for the job.
 * However, any claims that this build is far better for balling mobs for AoE spikes is silly, because you can prot up, ball, and then spike even with a 'ranged' caster build. And if you're tank&spanking as a secondary melee, you have better options than daggers. --  Toraen   talk  03:25, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Imho, the only reason any caster should run this is if you're tired of having to remotely think at all about what to do. Otherwise, other caster builds have so much more utility and usefulness that this is just outclassed. Even if you don't want to think, just run AP disco and then you can c+space through everything same as this. Also. I agree with Torean that if you wanna tanknspank just run 100b. Far superior. Also, geists vote should be removed cuz its enormous being sarcastic and if its gone this is trashed. Roland 03:31, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I actually already removed his, sjan's, and Saxazax's votes. Sorry it's not trashed, but none of them were valid so they all had to go. Everyone can shut up for now though, unless they have any new insights regarding this build. I'm rather tired of this page. --  Toraen   talk  03:43, 27 August 2011 (UTC) \
 * That's understandable removing them all tho it is too bad it's not trashed :/ maybe others will vote on it still..And yah, I'll stop posting on this page again. Roland 03:47, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I was about to flame you to fucking hell, but Toraen beat me to the response. He did a better job of explaining it anyway. -- Jai . -  03:51, August 27 2011 (UTC)

Keep in mind AP builds are part of a team (discordway), don't compare them on the same grounds as individual builds, it's a different story. And stop bringing up 100b/vos, discuss it's merits for casters when there's a build article for it.-- Relyk 03:54, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep in mind caster dagger builds are part of a nichè team (physical hero team), don't compare them on the same grounds as individual builds, it's a different story. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 04:47, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Roland, it's in trash now :P. You happy? :P <font color="FF6600"><font color="Red">Le Shadow Form <font color="Green">Slayer   [[Image:SFS C-Ribbon.jpg|15px]] 09:38, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
 * zzz-- Relyk 11:32, 27 August 2011 (UTC)