User talk:Fox007/Build:Rt/Mo AwS Hybrid Healer

Discuss :) --Fox007  08:17, 2 April 2008 (EDT)
 * You have no hex removal, and u hav a time of around 15 secs where u have no energy management. Also Aegis isnt needed for RA,TA or AB.Zuko 12:53, 2 April 2008 (EDT)
 * The 15 seconds aren't a big deal since you will get you energy back very quick back after recasting the item spell. And for Aegis i think ill find a better spell for it maybe you can give me suggestion ^^ --Fox007  [[Image:User Fox007 sig.png|User:Fox007]] 15:30, 2 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Throw in something else from spawning.  15:33, 2 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Ghostly Haste+someone else on the team w/ a Spirit=Constant AwS.  15:34, 2 April 2008 (EDT)

Just a thought... -- Guild of  Deals  15:34, 2 April 2008 (EDT)

And ofcourse a rit or ranger with a spirit --Fox007  15:42, 2 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Just a quick idea of me for a second Rit.

--Fox007  15:55, 2 April 2008 (EDT)

Imo. ~ ĐONT * TALK  18:41, 2 April 2008 (EDT)

Spirit Bond and Prot Spirit is redundant. moush$2+2=4$ 19:42, 2 April 2008 (EDT)

MBaS is your condition remover now.BeQuickOrBeDead 09:41, 3 April 2008 (EDT)

14 is the breakpoint to lower 10e to 5e. Frans  10:34, 3 April 2008 (EDT)
 * 1 energy less costing spells versus -35 health loss = in this build the -1 energy isn't worth the health loss --Fox007  [[Image:User Fox007 sig.png|User:Fox007]] 10:38, 3 April 2008 (EDT)

Convert Hexes maybe? --Fox007  10:48, 3 April 2008 (EDT)

soothing memories is a nice one. Frans  14:05, 3 April 2008 (EDT)

Srsly, -35 health is worth it, since it'll change 5e skills as well. Frans  14:06, 3 April 2008 (EDT)

Use a weapon spell, a healer in TA/RA/AB using a hard res is stupid. Frans  14:09, 3 April 2008 (EDT)
 * I git Weapon of Shadow in my mind but i am not sure. --Fox007  [[Image:User Fox007 sig.png|User:Fox007]] 14:19, 3 April 2008 (EDT)

Spirit light? Charon 15:12, 3 April 2008 (EDT) Charon

What about removing FoMF for a hex removal? I agree with frans. Gabe 16:23, 3 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Weapon of Shadow
 * Vengeful Weapon
 * Weapon of Warding
 * i found these three to be the most usefull for the build. --Fox007  [[Image:User Fox007 sig.png|User:Fox007]] 16:31, 3 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Umm.. you mean Vengeful Weapon right? ~ ĐONT * TALK  16:40, 3 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Vengeful shadow lol xD like your ally gets a Vengeful shadow whenever a foe misses you you will steal of that foe --Fox007  [[Image:User Fox007 sig.png|User:Fox007]] 16:57, 3 April 2008 (EDT)

Soothing should be switched for spirit light for a more powerful and spammable heal. God box   11:38, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

Who removed soothing? That was the e-management. Frans  14:51, 4 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Just don't spam and your fine. God  box   14:52, 4 April 2008 (EDT)
 * i am starting to miss the hybrid part of the build --Fox007  [[Image:User Fox007 sig.png|User:Fox007]] 16:35, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

I took out prot spirit and fixed variants. I don't think you'll be needing Ghostly Haste but oh well. moush$2+2=4$ 16:40, 4 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Ghostly allows you to constantly have the item spell up. God  box   16:47, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

Reverse Hex--Relyk 20:20, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

over life imo. Frans  03:34, 7 April 2008 (EDT)
 * No. Life got shorter recharge and is thus easier to maintain as well as allows for a slight addition of "movability". But ehm what's taking so long time for getting this vetted, it's even featured. God  box   06:19, 7 April 2008 (EDT)
 * At a guess, no one really likes running Rt healers in arenas, but maybe this one isn't so bad that people want to 0-0-0 it right away? The Rt/Mo Support Healer got shot down quickfast. I've never even tried to run a Rt healer in arenas, monks just seem to make more sense, maybe I'll try this tonight and get the rating ball rolling. - [[image:miserysig1.jpg]] isery   -TALK  06:24, 7 April 2008 (EDT)
 * I would test if it wasn't that I'm fairly bad at playing as a healer. God  box   06:41, 7 April 2008 (EDT)

You
Really should but Prot Spirit in the main bar. The ability to spam it is nice. -- Guild of  Deals  07:15, 7 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Umm, Spirit Bond is in the main bar, do you really need both? It's just personal preference which one you use, Spirit Bond is way more spammable. Personally I'd rather take Weapon of Warding because it is funny to laugh at blocked sin chains in arenas. Funniest moment I had last night was when I used Shield Bash and caught a sin's Temple Strike. After that, he stopped autoattacking and just stood there for a good 5 seconds like, "wtf?" - [[image:miserysig1.jpg]] isery   -TALK  07:20, 7 April 2008 (EDT)

No, Guild of Deals is right. The application of this build is the ability to relatively inexpensively spamprot every person in the party. But singular enchantment removal is common. Being able to hit every one of your teammates with Spirit Bond and Prot Spirit for the cost of a burger and fries is not to be underestimated. Btw, a burger and fries costs 40 energy at Wendy's. Derek The Lash 10:41, 7 April 2008 (EDT)
 * WoW is prot too, except it's unstrippable. Spirit Bond has a 2 second recharge, you can still fling that around like a monkey flings poo, in fact both WoW and Protective Spirit have 5 second recharge, so you can spam them both as much as each other. I think if you already have Spirit Bond, WoW>Protective Spirit. Spirit Bond will catch spikes, WoW will reduce pressure. Then, You = Epic win. - [[image:miserysig1.jpg]] isery   -TALK  10:47, 7 April 2008 (EDT)

You don't understand, Misery, Weapon of Warding is a full one second cast that only lasts for 9 seconds. It's an easy interrupt that's virtually impossible to keep up continually. Prot Spirit is a quarter second cast that would last upwards of 20 seconds with an enchanting mod. Derek The Lash 11:52, 7 April 2008 (EDT)
 * I do understand that, but people don't take Guardian + Spirit Bond instead of Spirit Bond + Protective Spirit just because of energy concerns, they take Guardian because it is good. Weapon of Warding is a better version of Guardian that costs more. Spirit Bond and Protective Spirit reduce spike damage, Guardian and Weapon of Warding reduce pressure and have some effect on dumb spikes (ones that don't include stripping enchants) in the case of Guardian and on all melee spikes in the case of Weapon of Warding (bar ones that ignore blocking). Enchantment stripping is pretty meta in Team Arenas and to a lesser extent in Random Arenas so Weapon of Warding = Good. You so don't need both Protective Spirit and Spirit Bond to stop spikes, either one gives you more than enough time to throw out a Spirit Light and patch up whatever your prot left behind, but neither of them will do sweet fuck all against Dark Apostasy scythes, Rend Enchantments -> Spike etc etc. Also, I suspect Attuned Was Songkai will allow a degree of faking it till you make it when getting owned by interrupts. - [[image:miserysig1.jpg]] isery   -TALK  12:00, 7 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Added PS instead of FoMF --<font color="Orange">Fox007  [[Image:User Fox007 sig.png|User:Fox007]] 12:02, 7 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Spamming prots mindlessly iz bad. Misery is right about SB and PS, you only need one. Putting both on a target will do little.  Whereas one of the above + WoW will make them invincible. [[Image:mightymouse.gif|25px]] moush$2+2=4$  12:45, 7 April 2008 (EDT)
 * It's not useless, but it's just not worth it. If it would be useless, people wouldn't run sb/ps on both monks. —ǘŋ  Ɛxɩsƫ  12:33, 9 April 2008 (EDT)

FoMF
Will not be used by anyone. In AB you won't use a res, in RA/TA you don't want a hard res, especially not as a healer (saccing half your health as a healer=lol wtf). Holy Veil is a nice option. Btw the build was made for spamming stuff so I suggest replacing one of the healing skills with Soothing Memories. AwS reduces energy costs, it doesn't nullify them. Frans  10:47, 7 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Um, yeah, /signed. I wasn't going to put it on my bar when I tested it. - [[image:miserysig1.jpg]] isery   -TALK  10:49, 7 April 2008 (EDT)

Seriosly FoMF WHAT were u thinking? Hex removal is a good option--Luwigo 13:41, 13 April 2008 (EDT) [build prof=Rt/Mo pro=10 res=10+1 spa=11+1+2][Attuned Was Songkai][Spirit Bond][Weapon of Warding][Soothing Memories][Mend Body and Soul][Ghostly Haste][Life][Holy Veil][/build]

better defense, more spammability because of e-management, which casters should have.86.86.36.63 12:07, 7 April 2008 (EDT)


 * and good use of spawning power.86.86.36.63 12:09, 7 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Btw, the whole idea of using AwS to prot is kWl.86.86.36.63 14:22, 7 April 2008 (EDT)
 * I used the bar like this:


 * I swapped Life because I found it too fragile and too high a priority target for people to take down. Empowerment stayed up quite a bit longer and you barely notice the extra 10 seconds of recharge. You really don't need Soothing Memories, energy management is excellent when Songkai is up, non-existant when it is down, but then Soothing won't help anyway. It worked really well, until someone countered you. If you got interrupted, screwed, if you died, screwed, you don't have time to get it all back up. I found people stripping Ghostly Haste in mid cast of Songkai. It's ok, but I feel a monk out performs it, Ritualists tend to be better at being hybrid healers/support through damage, where monks trump them in healing/prot, especially in arenas. This build is just too fragile, not in terms of health, but in terms of reliance on skills. Oh and Weapon of Warding was godly, use it. - [[image:miserysig1.jpg]] isery   -TALK  17:39, 7 April 2008 (EDT)
 * I know you'd lose the Monk prot, but would this work better as a /E with Glyph of Swiftness or a /R with Serpent's Quickness? You only need either up long enough to recast the ashes and it might make it worse, but more reliable. Is worse by reliable better than godly but reliable as a hammer made of cheese? - [[image:miserysig1.jpg]] isery   -TALK  05:29, 8 April 2008 (EDT)
 * In bad situations, you need e-management, you reduce the costs, you don't make them disappear...86.86.36.63 09:51, 8 April 2008 (EDT)
 * For serious, I never felt restricted by energy just using Songkai. 3 energy heals are leet, that's what made HC Healspam (temporarily) good. Half cost plus 4 regen pips is perfectly adequate, even for the bad times. The problem is not the energy management, you can pretty much spam Mend Body and Soul on recharge and never feel it as well as throw your prot around like nobody's business. You really don't need Soothing Memories, it's like Signet of Devotion on a monk, if you can't manage energy, sure, take it, but you really don't need it. - [[image:miserysig1.jpg]] isery   -TALK  09:58, 8 April 2008 (EDT)

I tried it and i have to say: Songkai is REALLY dangerous if you get interrupted... and Soothing Memories is so crappy... too low heal imo.
 * No soothing memories in the build (atleast not anymore xD) and interruption is like DOH for every healer it is dangerous to get interrupted :P <font color="Orange">Fox007  [[Image:User Fox007 sig.png|User:Fox007]] 11:43, 8 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Difference is, if they interrupt WoH, a 3/4 second cast you are like Doh! for 4-24 seconds, if they interrupt the Ashes, a 2 second cast that my grandmother could interrupt, especially when they notice you recasting your spirit and Ghostly Haste it's like Doh! for 60-80 seconds. That's a whole lot more Doh! - [[image:miserysig1.jpg]] isery   -TALK  15:04, 8 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Difference is, interupt woh and you're dead, interupt songkai and your spam supply is gone. —ǘŋ  Ɛxɩsƫ  12:37, 9 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Nice one.[[Image:Impossible_Odds.jpg‎|19px]] Frans  17:24, 9 April 2008 (EDT)
 * ...and then you die? Instead of dying instantly, lets die slowly and painfully. - [[image:miserysig1.jpg]] isery   -TALK  17:41, 9 April 2008 (EDT)
 * While your team has the chance to kill your opponents, yes. In a game, I'd rather die rly slow.[[Image:Impossible_Odds.jpg‎|19px]] Frans  17:34, 11 April 2008 (EDT)

Have anyone tried
spawning 11+1+2, restoration 11+1, Prot 10

Havn't tested this in gvg yet or anything but if i compare to my rc bar in theory. Sb=Sb for big prot, rof=rof for spike heal, WoW>guardian for blocking/second prot, Gift of health<=Soothing memories for red bar goes up, Rc>MBAS for condi removal, Convert=Viel(well iono but its gotta b close), GOLE<Attuned (assuming u dont drop ashes like a tard), empowerment would replace aura or aegis, thats a meh but maybe it could b worth it? Basically rt version trades uber energy management and better red baring for slightly weaker prot skills in theory. Not sure if it would work tho, and chances r if it did it would have alrdy been tried.I Heal If U Shutup 03:17, 10 April 2008 (EDT)

Lan's Vote
Is wrong, there is no downtime, which shows us how little time he spend actually trying to understand the build. Frans  12:50, 12 April 2008 (EDT)
 * i have contacted him on his userpage --<font color="Orange">Fox007  [[Image:User Fox007 sig.png|User:Fox007]] 14:27, 12 April 2008 (EDT)

why is this even in other?
this cant hold a team up on its own, way too many counters, and in 4v4 SB wont be nearly as effective. if this has another healer with it, then it wouldnt be needed, there are far better support healers, like MR Monk. Saint 13:40, 31 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Look at how much damage people normally do per hit in TA/RA, then ask yourself whether SB is useful or not. Especially when it is freaking cheap with AwS.<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Pika <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Fan [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]] 14:05, 31 October 2008 (EDT)
 * this cant tolerate the pressure that TA often offers, and in RA a monk just does it far better, and a monk has less counters. why is this here? Saint 14:14, 31 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Basically, this one has weaker heals and no stances, which makes it flimsy. However, it's strengths are WoW, which is unstrippable/permanently maintainable and made super cheap with AwS. Sure, this is inferior to WoH stance/SA monks, but it does the job decently, but nothing more. That is why this is rated lower.<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Pika <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Fan [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]] 14:40, 31 October 2008 (EDT)
 * it cant handle pressure, no matter how much SB and WoW spam it has. it has far too many counters, and is far inferior. We should just delete it. Saint 16:03, 31 October 2008 (EDT)
 * It can handle pressure. SB prevents this from dying. I played a variant of this before and lasted 17 rounds in RA/TA. Preproting using WoW and SB helps. Basically, VoR/BF fags are screwed with this and holy veil(release it only under diversion).<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Pika <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Fan [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]] 16:08, 31 October 2008 (EDT)
 * <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Pika <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Fan [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]] 16:12, 31 October 2008 (EDT)
 * you seem to be under the illusion that everyone hits over 60 with every attack. if someone is using power attack of evis or something yea, but even evis takes 7 hits that will all be under 60 to build up. its not nearly as effective as a monk, and a monk can handle SB on his bar no problem if you like it so much. Saint 16:15, 31 October 2008 (EDT)
 * also, the elite is 2 second cast, any horrible ranger can easily interrupt that, let alone mesmers, which are now all too common in arenas. if life is killed or if ghostly haste or AwS are interrupted then the whole build goes to shit. Saint 16:16, 31 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Huh? WoW on pressured targets please. If they target switch, just spam SM + MBaS. FYI, many damage packets come in more than 60. You don't have to have everything at 60 damage, preventing some is already relieving pressure. You get annoying assacasters, evis, VoR/BF shutdown which SB spamming actually helps. WoW before casting AwS helps against interrupts. <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Pika <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Fan [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]] 16:22, 31 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Also, the argument of "you seem to be under the illusion that everyone hits over 60 with every attack" for not bringing SB is invalid and flawed in reasoning, because you will be hard pressed to find a team anywhere with only damage exceeding 60 with every cast/skill/autoattack. Then people shouldn't bring SB at all, don't you agree?<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Pika <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Fan [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]] 16:26, 31 October 2008 (EDT)
 * no one DOES bring SB in small arenas. for the price of 1 SB you can have two wohs, which can be healing between 200 and 340. that would mean out of 8 times SB would have to trigger between 3 and 5 times. i dont see that happening all too often, and it isnt a gaurenteed heal, unlike woh. this is a build far inferior to a standard monk who has less counters, more healing, and more versatility (free secondary means stances or whatever you want). this doesnt deserve the high votes it has. Saint 23:56, 31 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Spirit bond was never a guaranteed heal because you don't know what your opponent is running, but chances are that your opponent is looking to DPS the shit out of you, and spirit bond can be used to protect you just before you get into a knockdown chain. WoH can't. Preproting is better than redbaring. FYI, it is very common to get more than 60 damage in a single packet in TA, do play more often. And I guess you are forgetting AwS. It is the price of 1 WoH, which protects you from dangerous adrenal/knockdown spikes, which WoH can't. Those monk bars you are referring to has a different usage. Monk bars rely on stances to protect themselves from being ganked and enchantment removal on holy veil leaves them wide open to VoR + backfire. This is a possible counter to the VoR meta, and although it packs less healing and pressure relief capabilities, its advantages to running it allows it to be in "Other". Read the description about "Other" builds" and you will know it is in the correct place.<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Pika <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Fan [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]] 01:16, 1 November 2008 (EDT)
 * ''* Working-Other (2.5 – <3.5):

'': The build showed some new ideas but wasn't too interesting or wasn't working too well. It will be stored in the archive for reference use. The majority of the community will not continue to work on it. However, the build will stay open for changing or adding votes. When some more work is done (or the game changes), it might reach a higher category.'' ''
 * Now, let me elaborate. Using spirit bond to counter the VoR meta is certainly a "new idea but wasn't too interesting or working well". Furthermore, trading redbarring ability for cheap spammable heals is certainly a new idea but it isn't working too well because it doesn't really stand up to pressure. Hence, this qualifies to be in "Other".<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Pika <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Fan [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]] 01:24, 1 November 2008 (EDT)
 * you can preprot with guardian, you dont need SB to preprot in a small arena. and if that team strips off sb, or hits under sb a bunch (like daggers), then your screwed. spears + degen are also a commonly run thing in RA, and this cant hold up to those. monks shouldnt go on the floor int he first place, thats what stances and guardian are for. monks do this far better, and we shouldnt just have shitty inferior builds on the wiki for the sake of it. sb isnt counted in packets of damage (like it doesnt count hundred blades as one hit), it counts everything indidivually, so it is even less of a guarentee that it will heal. its inferior and pointless to have this here. Saint 09:50, 1 November 2008 (EDT)
 * 1)Read the description of "Other" builds, and read my explanation again. tl;dr less. 2)SB has a short duration anyway, so it's ok for it to be removed because it is too late by then. You should say guardian is useless because enchant removals > it.3)SB IS counted in packets of damage. Hundred blades does two packets of damage at the same time. 34) WoW > Guardian 5)Draw conditions + mend touch = win. Refer to the bar I used.<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Pika <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Fan [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]] 10:14, 1 November 2008 (EDT)
 * Finally:Who the hell uses hundred blades in RA/TA other than some PvE scrub?<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Pika <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Fan [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]] 10:18, 1 November 2008 (EDT)
 * wow. no. you can run this shitty rit bar and ill run a monk and we'll see who can handle more pressure. its small arenas, this will never hold up for shit. Saint 10:18, 1 November 2008 (EDT)
 * That's why this is in OTHER and not GREAT, right? I would be arguing like you if this was actually in Great. Any build should qualify for "Other" as long the concept behind it consists of ideas that are known to be "new" to perform certain roles decently.<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Pika <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Fan [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]] 10:21, 1 November 2008 (EDT)
 * Also, we are planning to merge bars with the other one, and you can't say the other one is terrible at support(not TERRIBLE, but not GREAT either, to clarify).<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Pika <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Fan [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]] 10:23, 1 November 2008 (EDT)
 * if you wanted support in arenas you wouldnt bring this shitty rit. it may seem viable on paper, but it has no USES. Saint 10:44, 1 November 2008 (EDT)
 * This argument is getting circular because you don't seem to understand the meaning of an "Other Build". I have already proven to you why it qualifies to be in "Other", however, your resistance to whatever disagrees with you, no matter how valid the argument, gets in the way of your objectivity. Cheers, and agree to disagree.<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Pika <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Fan [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]] 11:11, 1 November 2008 (EDT)