User talk:Shireen/Build:Me/Mo RA FC Healer/archive1

I've been utilizing this in RA for a few weeks now after extensive tweaking. And before you say "Just use a MONK primary!" Monk primary with this bar is too slow, and will be destroyed quite quickly. The main weakness/flaw in this build are KD warriors with the inability to kite. Most sins and anti casters do not pose a significant threat to this fc monk. Almost ro R5 Gladiator.... Yeah baby! Shireen  former sysop  13:21, 14 May 2008 (EDT)

Priority
Mesmers are generally number 2 in line to destruction, only surpassed by Monks. --84.24.206.123 13:23, 14 May 2008 (EDT)

Not as much as you would think. I've noticed I only get 1, perhaps 2 people charging me, as opposed to an all out gang bang thats more common with monk primaries. Shireen  former sysop  13:26, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * no prot = baed. just lrn2play monk ffs. purge sig is baed. hard res on a dedicated healer is bad. the only plus you get from this is FC and that's not worth much. you have no self cond removal besides Purge and what happens when you need to clear DW? you lose 10 energy and then you can't remove anything else on yourself for 20s. this is complete shit. [[Image:OmNomNomNom_sig.jpg|19px]] Oɱɳoɱɳoɱɳoɱ ( nom )( nom )  13:36, 14 May 2008 (EDT)

You don't need Fast Casting at all, just use comon sense and l2play.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ  13:39, 14 May 2008 (EDT)


 * Replies expected and noted. Though I would appreciate attempts at spelling. The main issue with heal intensive monks is that their cast times are relitively slow when compared to prot bars. This has the reactivity to make up for that. Healing breeze works along the same lines of shielding hands/SoA (Longer duration/slightly less immediate protection, better HP protection overall though). I encourage you guys to try it.  Thats all I am asking.  Im sharing a build that is outside conventional meta that works. Shireen   former sysop  13:40, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Smart people don't run prot or heal build in RA/TA, they run WoH Hybrids, with small prots and powerful heals.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 13:42, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Which this bar lacks...small prots. ffs you dont even have patient spirit [[Image:OmNomNomNom_sig.jpg|19px]] Oɱɳoɱɳoɱɳoɱ ( nom )( nom )  13:44, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Also, Healing Breeze....seriously? That's the biggest waste of energy on a Monk bar.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 13:44, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * While it's actually a Mes bar, lol. Being Mesmer primary also doesn't allow for personal defense, such as Return, Shield Bash or Dstance.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 13:45, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * or d shot... >.< [[Image:OmNomNomNom_sig.jpg|19px]] Oɱɳoɱɳoɱɳoɱ ( nom )( nom )  13:47, 14 May 2008 (EDT)

Check the gear, 20% enchantment extension was used to bolster Healing breeze and Spotless Soul. Would make patient spirit less effective. And when you run into a courrupt enchants build (common in RA) It helps fuel opposing DPS. I chose Rejuve Signet over Patient Spirit for e-managment and as a non-spell heal. And as you said, its a mesmer bar. Thats the one area this has issues with is KD warriors because it cant kite. It's been able to survive and outheal all other reasonable threats though. Shireen  former sysop  13:48, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Healing Breeze sucks, end of discussion. A little Poison, Bleeding, any other degen, counters it....10e wasted.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 13:49, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * also use small prots and LRN2MONK. a good monk can easily help out a whole team under pressure from 4 opposing players. also theirs this new thing call secondary healers/linebacking that good players do from time to time to help you. this is inferior to any of the vetted monk builds. [[Image:OmNomNomNom_sig.jpg|19px]] Oɱɳoɱɳoɱɳoɱ ( nom )( nom )  13:51, 14 May 2008 (EDT)

Healing Breeze - 16 health per second over 18 second = 288 health overall. It functions as the necessary damage mitigation offered by other protection spells. Its a pre-counter heavy degen so you have time to clean it up. This build is very efficient at cleaning. : Le sigh, You guys see something so far outside meta and you go on a holy crusade to destroy it. Im patient. I'll wait till reasonable people show up. Shireen  former sysop  13:53, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Yeah, because Bleeding and Poison aren't comon at all! Why would you need fast casting anyway? Take Patient Spirit (1/4 casting) WoH (l2not use it when you're being camped) and prots/hex removal/condition removal. Also, No DF makes any healer that's not a Rit fail.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 13:54, 14 May 2008 (EDT)

Oh yeah and 40/40 sets usually reduce casting time enough.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ  13:54, 14 May 2008 (EDT)

Bleeding and poision are common, as is Phantasmal Killer and Nightmare and a whole plethera of multicollored Necro Degens. They still give you breathing room to clean those up as well. And it allows what little kiting you can do to be more effective at keeping you alive. Shireen  former sysop  13:57, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * My first build was a Zealous Vow sin...you think i give a shit about meta? im not saying this build wont work sometimes im saying that a good monk build works WAYYYY more then this EVER will. you cannot use sheild bash, return, dstance or even grasping earth(lulz) which help out immensely against melee/ranged enemies. dstance even gives you +24 armor ffs. you dont have rof/patient spirit which are 2 staples on a monk bar that greatly help to relieve pressure(while they both are more of an "ohshit" button) you dont have PS/SB so how the hell you gunna survive spikes? no self condition removal besides purge sig which once you use it it's done for 20s. what happens if you get more condiitions withing that time frame. DW...daze? you're dead. next time you wanna say something about my opinions on this game get you're facts straight. i am not the one here being unreasonable. [[Image:OmNomNomNom_sig.jpg|19px]] Oɱɳoɱɳoɱɳoɱ ( nom )( nom )  13:59, 14 May 2008 (EDT)


 * To awnser this rant and tirade, all I have to say to you is, Learn to Monk, and the awnsers will come to you. Shireen  former sysop  14:01, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * all i have to say back to that is lrn2mesmer...gfg [[Image:OmNomNomNom_sig.jpg|19px]] Oɱɳoɱɳoɱɳoɱ ( nom )( nom )  14:02, 14 May 2008 (EDT)

Constructive Critisism
Without Divine Favor, your heals won't be as good as you'd expect, and you really need prot skills (Guardian as a bare minimum) and self targetting condition removal in RA. 12+1+1 fast casting isn't really, needed, I'd drop it to 10+1+1 and take 8 prot for Guardian and Dismiss.

I'd still take Veil, otherwise you're defenceless against all the hex stacking that you get in arenas. I'm not really a huge fan of Purge on the monk (mesmer), a stack every 20 seconds isn't enough to replace Veil, especially as the current most dangerous necro bars run a couple of fast recharging hexes combined with heavy condition pressure. Cure Hex seems to be thrown in there simply for the lack of a better option, three hex removal skills that struggle to emulate what Veil does in one isn't really the best way to go. For the optional slots, you can go for standard monk skills such as Patient Spirit, dual condition removals over Dismiss etc if you want it to be a capable solo healer, or you could go with skills from other mesmer lines to support (ie 11 Healing, 8+1 Fast Casting, 8 Prot, 9+1+1 Inspiration gives access to some emanagement and support through interrupts, Humility etc).

In response to the outcry about it being a mesmer, it might not be the most effective choice, but atleast try to make something of it instead of bitching and moaning about how it should be a monk. --Tab  Moo  14:08, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Of course, if you want to venture away from what you have here a bit more, ZB would be more effective attribute-wise than WoH. --[[Image:Ibreaktoilets_Signature.jpg|User:Ibreaktoilets|20px]]Tab  Moo  14:12, 14 May 2008 (EDT)

Let me give that a try and I'll get back with you. =) My ZB variant doesnt work anymore, unfortunately, which is why I switched to healing (now that it too can clean the team).  Its (ZB) use as an e-management skill and power heal (only 150 at prot 12) isn't cutting it anymore in RA's heavy enchantment removal environment.  And needing to wait for energy 10 for your power heal is painfull when you trying to spam someone alive under heavy pressure. Shireen   former sysop  14:13, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * ZB is still more energy efficient than WoH. The main reason to run WoH is that it gives you access to skills like Patient which make you harder to take out of the game through shutdown. This mentality that you're going to powerheal through anything as a mesmer is wrong though, without Divine Favor and 13-14 in the attribute, you're losing alot of healing ability. --[[Image:Ibreaktoilets_Signature.jpg|User:Ibreaktoilets|20px]]Tab  Moo  14:18, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Also, I just remembered what I was trying to think of when I made that post. Take Vig Spirit as a second small prot, it does the job way better than Breeze. --[[Image:Ibreaktoilets_Signature.jpg|User:Ibreaktoilets|20px]]Tab  Moo  14:23, 14 May 2008 (EDT)

Ok. Yes the build works. But does that mean it is effective? No. Sure you might get glads with it, keep people alive with it, but with alot of primary proffessions utilising mo secondary and these skills could. The simple fact is that without prots and divine favour, all you have over a monk is a slightly faster cast. Considering this is an RA build, where interrupts are not a problem in the slightest, what is the point of fast casting? Tell me, why would I run this over a monk? &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Rawr. 14:22, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * (EC)change purge to veil. change healing breeze and inspired hex to SB and guardian. change cure hex to patient/rof. then you have a monk with no divie favour. you have fast casting in ra? what interrupts pose a threat in ra that you would need fc? [[Image:OmNomNomNom_sig.jpg|19px]] Oɱɳoɱɳoɱɳoɱ ( nom )( nom )  14:24, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * You know that D-Shot you raved about earlier. Thats what its for.  And you able to get off more spells in a crunch time with FC. <font face="arial" color="Green">Shireen   former sysop  14:38, 14 May 2008 (EDT)

This setup isnt working. Gonna try something else... I've lost too much Healing and condition removal isnt as strong as it needs to be. Let me try something else... I was utilizing Remove Hex and Inspired hex as a combo for healing/quick surface removal. I can keep key hexes in a stack from hitting and can keep up with most single "Spread Load" hexors... Guardian at 5 seconds doesnt seem to be enough prot (Preliminary) to keep KD's off me...  Havent made it past a round 2 yet with it (out of 6 runs). <font face="arial" color="Green">Shireen  former sysop  14:37, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * You have way too much healing there. If you're using Guardian correctly, WoH and SoR should be enough healing for any situation other than mass degen on the team or your WoH being shut down. Drop Inscriptions for Vigorous Spirit, take Power Drain over Ethereal and drop Breeze for something useful.
 * The condition removal there should be alot stronger than before too - just don't bother removing all conditions, only get key ones like Blind and Deep Wound.
 * Guardian at 5 seconds should be enough, you don't want to maintain it on yourself, you want to use it when the opposing warriors are using attack skills (or thats how you'd use it in a build like this).
 * It sounds to me like you're stuck in the mentality that power healing through mass damage is more effective than stopping it in the first place, you'll find that things get alot easier once you get used to protting. --[[Image:Ibreaktoilets_Signature.jpg|User:Ibreaktoilets|20px]]<font color="Black">Tab  <font color="Black">Moo  14:42, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * just use a hybrid prot/heal. the thing about hybrids is thought that they need to be monk primaries because they can use runes/DF. without df your att split doesnt provide for enough healing. your idea works just a monk build works BETTER (which is what i've been saying the whole time) [[Image:OmNomNomNom_sig.jpg|19px]] Oɱɳoɱɳoɱɳoɱ ( nom )( nom )  14:44, 14 May 2008 (EDT)

I've been using boon-prot variants for a very long time, and I've been trying to figure out how to use PVP Healing builds, so thats why Im focused around the whole heal aspect. The other problem is that in RA, people don't communicate, so you don't know when they have a key negetive affect on them. But I did find something thats sort of working...

With Vigorous My warriors are going down less, but my casters are dropping more... <font face="arial" color="Green">Shireen  former sysop  14:52, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * As I said, you really need to focus on protting with modern monk bars to have any real success with them. They're totally different to Boon Prots, where you could powerheal through stuff with your 100 heal + RoF. --[[Image:Ibreaktoilets_Signature.jpg|User:Ibreaktoilets|20px]]<font color="Black">Tab  <font color="Black">Moo  14:55, 14 May 2008 (EDT)

(EC)Basically, the best I can think of that you could make from a Me/Mo healer is:

First optional should be RoF, no idea what the second should be. Basically, it's a Mesmer version of the standard ZB bar.

If you want to run WoH:

No idea what to take for the final skill, Patient could work, but that's where you'd usually take a /W stance.

However, while it's fine if you want to monk on your mesmer in RA, I'm not sure whether we should be hosting builds that are inferior versions of standard bars designed because someone prefers one class to an other. What's more, as long as this stays an all out healer, it's probably going to get WELL'd due to being a worse version of a ZB/WoH monk.

In other words, the above bar is what I'd advise you run if you want to keep monking on your mesmer, however anything along those lines that you submit should probably be more support geared as I originally suggested so that there's a reason for running it as a mesmer other than that you want to. --<font color="Black">Tab  <font color="Black">Moo  14:55, 14 May 2008 (EDT)

For those bars, in the optionals, I'd throw in inspired Hex. Free fast and quick and capable of reacting much quicker to the bottom of a hex stack than Veil. Though the two in combination would work out well. Give me a day or so to give those a run and see what I can do with them. <font face="arial" color="Green">Shireen  former sysop  14:59, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * You really shouldn't need a second removal with Veil - against hex stacks, which are the only really dangerous form of hexes, its a case of either get the main hex that's being covered through preveiling, or get something useless like Parasitic Bond. You could take it if that's something you like using, but it's definately not the best use of the skill slot. --[[Image:Ibreaktoilets_Signature.jpg|User:Ibreaktoilets|20px]]<font color="Black">Tab  <font color="Black">Moo  15:01, 14 May 2008 (EDT)

Prot=12 FC=10+1+1 insp=8+1, IMO.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ  16:28, 14 May 2008 (EDT)

You dont gain any benifit of FC with that build and its awefull low on the survival end. I've found spam damagers will kill that, fairly quickly. Good against melee groups though, but your condition removal causes a big risk on your part. ZB =/= WoH for a primary heal without DF. <font face="arial" color="Green">Shireen  former sysop  17:06, 16 May 2008 (EDT)

In my defense
, I can do it a few more times tonight if you really want me to... Still exploring the variants. But a standard monk bar does not translate over well to a Mesmer Primary, in all honesty. Got to change it up and change your style for it to really work. <font face="arial" color="Green">Shireen  former sysop  17:47, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Doesn't mean shit.  17:48, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * (EC)Random Arenas is called Random Arenas for a reason. 10 wins in RA is nothing. I've done it numerous times running IW mesmers. - PANIC!  [[Image:Panic_sig4.png|50px|18px]] <font color="#D70000"> sexiness!  17:49, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * 2 Casters, 1 frontline, and a monk ALWAYS wins.  17:50, 14 May 2008 (EDT)


 * *Points to the TAG on the build* It says RA right?  <font face="arial" color="Green">Shireen   former sysop  17:54, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * That means that your team is random. That means, that sometimes you get lucky and have an excellent team.  17:56, 14 May 2008 (EDT)

So other than you guys actually trying it out for viability, what kind of screenshot do I need to provide to show viability of the build? <font face="arial" color="Green">Shireen  former sysop  17:57, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * No pictures help. And I'm not bashing it, just saying that 10 cons. doesnt mean anything.  17:59, 14 May 2008 (EDT)

Im just trying to show a possible paridime shift. I don't submit builds very often, and I only post the ones that I have tested fairly in debth. Unfortunately those few builds that make it past the vetting system tend to get nerfed fairly quickly. Im not trying to pawn off some uber theory here, just something that works, and works really well IMOP. And its really hard to get past the theory phase of most people here on the wiki. <font face="arial" color="Green">Shireen  former sysop  18:01, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * At least fifty consecutive. :O
 * Seriously, though, don't worry about it. PvX has been pretty dumb about RA builds for the last good while.  This looks pretty good (off-monk healing is ludicrously effective in RA because everyone there is so goddamn inflexible about target priority), even if the lack of real prots makes me kinda sad. --71.229 18:02, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I was just pointing out that running IW, which is completely stoppable with just 1 enchantment removal spell, you can get 10 wins too. It's Random that way. But if this is just for RA then there's some basic stuff it should do TBH. First it should have some way to stop attacks. A simple KD chain will mess you up. - PANIC!  [[Image:Panic_sig4.png|50px|18px]] <font color="#D70000"> sexiness!  18:09, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * It'll do the same to most monks too, to be fair. --71.229 18:11, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I run my monk with Shield Bash.  18:12, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Shield bash, Dshot, Disciplined, Balanced, etc, are all used on monks. - PANIC!  [[Image:Panic_sig4.png|50px|18px]] <font color="#D70000"> sexiness!  18:13, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Then it comes down to the relative skill levels of the players. Healing Breeze should keep you alive through KD chains.
 * Summary of this build, from what I'm seeing: it does better during the good times (nobody targets off-monk healers) and worse during the bad times (no real defense). --71.229 18:16, 14 May 2008 (EDT)


 * It's tanked every sin I've had thrown at me. Shatter Assult, Temple Strike.  I've outlived and kept alive under the pressure of Dragon Slash/Conjure warriors, Mesmers and Interupt Rangers rarely shut me down.  The only thing that consistantly kills me are KD warriors.  Which I've noted.  Dazed isn't so much of an issue.  Most Skills that utilize Dazed have a 20 second or more recharge/reusable time to it, and purge signet easily handles and takes care of that.  <font face="arial" color="Green">Shireen   former sysop  18:25, 14 May 2008 (EDT)

Monk VS Mesmer
Allright, I do have some experience with Using my Mesmer in the traditional Monk roles and it requires a paradigmn shift to understand how it works. In the last few days I have been trying out both traditional monk bars on Mesmers, and comparing them to their effectiveness with monk primaries, and comparing the couple of Mesmer monk bars I've dreamed up that work, and using those bars on monk primaries as well.
 * What I have found is that the two types of bars are almost mutually exclusive. Or in other words, what works on a mesmer bar does not work on a monk bar and vice versa in the monking arena.  There are three deciding factors that prove this:  Divine Favor, Casting Speed, Secondary Survival Skills.


 * Casting Speed


 * Monks (comparitively) cast much slower than Mesmers, and have to be patient in comparison to how and when they heal, protect, or clean. In exchange, with appropriate divine favor, they get a free orison heal with every cast.  It isn't much but it does add up.  What takes them 1.25 seconds with after cast takes a mesmer .75 seconds with aftercast.  So while the mesmer healed for 150 points, the Monk healed for roughly 190.  But the mesmer is able to have the next spell landing on target in about the time the monk is just about to start casting their second spell.  It does make a significant difference in heavy pressure situtations.
 * Taking this into consideration, monks have developed this mentality of focusing on key hexes and conditions, and utilizing spells that protect or add additional HP buffer between removals. It's slow, and a good monk can juggle it appropriately.  A mesmers strength in fast casting allows them to spot remove hexes immediately before the next one lands, without having to dig through any stack.  With the use of Spotless Soul, they can effectively dig through whole condition stacks with a single cast and keep healing, or utilize one of the older remove condition spells to spam their way through the stack.
 * This brings up the difference between the utility of holy veil and single target hex removal between the two. Holy veil allows you to pre-cast, so that your hex removal is allready in place and requires only a double click to get that key bottom hex.  This is because there arnt very many fast casting hex removal spells out there.  It buys the monk time later at the cost of energy.  A mesmer on the other hand casts so quickly that they are able to dig out the bottom of the stack without the need for a pre-veil.  Since veil no longer is a requirement to get that bottom stacked hex, and since your not getting any sort of healing out of it, and youll be hurting your energy reserves,  Mesmers need to bring different hex and condition removal than monk primaries to take advantage of their spam style and lack of divine favor healing.


 * Divine Favor


 * This is the bigest argument against a mesmer monking. The loss of divine favor!  Fast casting makes up for this as I tried to illustrate above.  Most of the stronger monk bars go for a hybrid split, which means both their protection and heal prayers are at 10-11, with divine favor at 10-12.  Though, for comparison sake, a similar build along the lines is the Mo/A WoH Shadow Monk which I will use for comparison.  We will assume that the target is at 200 hitpoints out of 550.  We are assuming maximum casting efficiency.

Time    /   Monk    /      Mesmer           / Amounts healed 0.00        WoH            WoH                     0/0 0.50      Casting          +105+83                 0/188 0.75      Casting          Sig Rej                 0/0 1.00      +122+94+29       Activating              245/188 1.35      Aftercast        +63 (or +126)           245/251 (317) 1.50      PS               Aftercast               245/251 (317) 1.60      Casting          HB                      245/251 (317) 1.75      +29              Casting                 274/251 (317) 2.00      Guardian         Casting                 274/251 (317) 2.10      Casting          HB Activates            274/251 (317) 2.35      Casting          Spotless Soul           274/255 (321) (+4  hp for HB) 2.45      Casting          SS Lands                274/256 (322) (+1  hp for HB) 3.00      +29              -Rest time-             303/266 (332) (+10 HP for HB) 3.25      Spirit Bond      -Rest time-             303/270 (336) (+4  HP for HB) 3.50      +29 +114         WoH                     446/274 (340) (+4  HP for HB) 4.00      WoH              +105 (+83)              446/387 (470) (+8  HP for HB) 4.25      casting          Insp Hex                446/395 (474) (+4  HP for HB) 5.00      +122(+94)+29     Cure Hex                597(691) / 407 (486) (+12 HP for HB) 5.25      Holy Veil        casting                 597(691) / 411 (490) (+4) 5.75      Casting          +102                    597(691) / 513 (592) 6.00      +29              -Rest Time-             626(787) / 517 (596) 6.10      HV DblClk        -Rest Time-             626(787) / 517 (596)
 * </b> Please note there is a table here that I can't seem to make work.</b>

And on and on it goes. With the shadow arts monk outpacing the FC Mesmer by 100 health points every 6 seconds or so. BUT the mesmer has removed more conditions and hexes in the same time frame while using up less energy. Also the Mesmer has been less vulternable to hard interupts, and if the dazed condition does hit, the mesmer can remove it from himself quite quickly. There is no way to do propper conjecture about the effectiveness of Guardian (as it's random) or Spirit Bond (As that varries by opponits).

So yes, this is comparing apples to oranges, but with the mesmer your trading 100 health points per 6 seconds for 2 hex removals and stronger condition removal, and less likely to be interupted. Im not going to go into the mending touch draw conditions+mending touch/purge signet comparison as thats a whole nother basket of strife and anguish.

energy Usage comparison of the above:

Monk: Woh-X2 / PS-X1 / Guardian / Spirit Bond / Holy Veild = 30 energy Mesmer: Woh-X2 / Sig Rej / HB / Spot / Insp / Cure = 25 energy

Mesmer made 7 activations over the Monks 6, and has potentially removed up to 2 conditions and two hexes along with countered an incomming degeneration. The monk on the other hand has healed for a bit more, removed 1 hex, and zero conditions, but possibly slowed down incomming damage (That can be mitigated by a target switch, but that can happen to the mesmer as well). But the point of the energy comparison is that the mesmer can maintain its healing for longer with less downtime for energy regen. When energy hits rock bottom and hex stacks keep happening, the Purge sig will only cost 2-3 energy every 20 seconds.

And as I mentioned before the Mesmer has been less likely to be hard interupted and is not dependent upon FC items and can utilize those modifications to better effect. With my gear setup the recharge rate is 20+10% which is comparable to a 20/20 recharge dual set, though I don't know any high end monks that use anything other than a shield...


 * Casting Speed

The most efficient use of the mesmers casting speed is in 'last second saves' and condition/hex removal, which it does FAR better than the monks of the same calibre. Thats essentially what your trading your Divine Favor for is reactivity. you ability to Keep the team clean of damaging conditions, which balances out the need for stronger healing.

<font face="arial" color="Green">Shireen  former sysop  15:45, 16 May 2008 (EDT)  More to come...

Post comments on Monk VS Mesmer Here
Still working on this, but please feel free to post any comments here on the above statements. Any that end up there will be moved to down here for now. <font face="arial" color="Green">Shireen  former sysop  14:17, 16 May 2008 (EDT)
 * You lose divine favor, which is quite awesome - not losing it, that is... No real reason to take a mesmer over a monk and res on a monk is bad. God  box   14:21, 16 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Thats what Im trying to illustrate, I havent quite finished formulating how I am going to explain skill needs and choices yet. But Fast Casting makes up for Divine Favor in some pretty cool ways with the right skill selections.  I know the stigma, I know the arguments, I am just trying to illustrate that this requires you to go into mesmonking with a different mentality.  <font face="arial" color="Green">Shireen   former sysop  14:26, 16 May 2008 (EDT)
 * or you could not fail at being a monk and look at your battlefield instead of the party bars. you dont need that extra buffer for when you fail or make a wrong reaction if you dont make a wrong reaction. divine favor is pretty nice and i'd hate to lose it for a little extra security that i can pump out 2 heal in the time it takes to do one when it means that i'll lose 80pts of a heal from not having divine favor. [[Image:OmNomNomNom_sig.jpg|19px]] Oɱɳoɱɳoɱɳoɱ ( nom )( nom )  03:06, 18 May 2008 (EDT)
 * This build requires more correct reactions than you are giving it credit for. <font face="arial" color="Green">Shireen   former sysop  20:38, 18 May 2008 (EDT)

Put simply, the only advantage a mesmer has - fast casting is made totally redundant by 40/40 sets and RoF. --<font color="Black">Tab  <font color="Black">Moo  08:35, 18 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Unless you want to argue the "RA don't go for monk" idea. Not saying that counts for much. -<font color="Black">Shen 09:09, 18 May 2008 (EDT)
 * There's plenty of ways of getting around that. --[[Image:Ibreaktoilets_Signature.jpg|User:Ibreaktoilets|20px]]<font color="Black">Tab  <font color="Black">Moo  09:12, 18 May 2008 (EDT)

Which of you monks take 40/40 instead of weapons and shields? <font face="arial" color="Green">Shireen  former sysop  20:27, 18 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I always carry a 40/40 set, i'm usually not on it though. For normal casting i stick with a defensive shield/spear set, 40/40 high set, and 15/-1 super high set. I carry a +dama/-5 energy set too, but i hardly ever use it, only for when i come across some nasty e-denial--Goldenstar 22:27, 18 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Every monk that isn't terrible uses 40/40 sets. You use them aswell as shield sets. Anet gave us 4 weapon sets for a reason. --[[Image:Ibreaktoilets_Signature.jpg|User:Ibreaktoilets|20px]]<font color="Black">Tab  <font color="Black">Moo  05:25, 19 May 2008 (EDT)


 * Can i please just say that you working all of this out for 1 crappy build makes you one of the saddest people i've seen in all honesty. I mean... it's just a build. If u want to see if it works, send it to testing and see what other people think, who actually play the game other than work out useless information. Dutchess of Rose  aka  lukejohnson  - talk - Contributions 08:32, 18 May 2008 (EDT) Over and out!


 * Thats why this is in TRIAL, so people can try it out. When put into testing you jokers are just gonna 0.0.0 it and call it a day.  I wanna see you guys trying to help me out on the theory before I get it nuked (Most likely it is.  I know you guys). Just cuz I am willing to actually argue my case with some intelligence, instead of "TRY IT TRY IT I SWEAR!"  You guys are all about build theory.  I have a build theory and it seems to be working.  So I am presenting it to see if it can be improved upon.  Pull your head out of meta for a moment and have some fun.  You are not the elite uberpwn, and neither am I. <font face="arial" color="Green">Shireen   former sysop  20:29, 18 May 2008 (EDT)

So I take it posting my healer build with FS would be futile? =D <font face="arial" color="Green">Shireen  former sysop  20:32, 18 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I'd be interested. --71.229 23:32, 18 May 2008 (EDT)

Ignoring the whole Mo vs Me thing
Because it will go round and round in circles and Shireen makes some points of semi-validity. But I will state for the record that this will almost certainly never get vetted due to the nature of the PvX beast.
 * 1) Hex Removal: Holy Veil is absolutely brilliant. You can achieve a similar effect using Cure Hex with Inspired Hex at the cost of bar compression with slightly better total hex removal. Cure Hex can remove the bottom of most hex stacks if you are quick and Inspired Hex beats Diversion(I believe, correct me if I am wrong) which is the hex I find myself preveiling against most often. Shame isn't actually too deadly in RA as you can usually wait it out due to a lack of coordinated spikes and if you can't weapon swap to your low set, waste a spell, swap back to 40/40 and save the day. Only hex I can see a problem with is Migraine but a Me primary just becomes a Mo primary without DF under Migraine so it's not that bad. In short, either options is viable, one gives you more hex removal, the other gives you more bar compression. Holy Veil + Inspired is probably overkill hex removal but could also be run.
 * 2) Pure Heal vs. Hybrid: Fast Casting is only used to reduce the casting speed of spells. As such you could easily run 12 Healing, 10 Protection and 8+1+1 Fast Casting and get a similar effect on a hybrid. This would give fast cast Guardian which would slightly reduce the need for self-protection found on most other monks and would allow you to use slower prot such as Shield of Absorption more effectively than a primary monk. These would also be much better than Healing Breeze for pre-protting instead of pre-healing. If you want to pre-heal use Patient Spirit, it heals for only slightly less much quicker and isn't vulnerable to being removed. Weapon swap to your enchanting set for protting and sit in a 40/40 or defensive set when just healing. That being said, I suspect WoH plus Signet of Rejuvination is good enough healing. I actually like the idea of fast-cast SoR as I found the cast time to be the major problem with it.
 * 3) Other Random stuff: Dismiss Condition or Mending Touch/Draw should be on the main bar. They are good skills for condition management and both benefit from fast casting. I like the idea of having a WoH that probably won't be interrupted but most rangers suck in RA, although I occasionally hit some bastard who manages to Dshot Patient Spirit twice in one game. The build discussion has been moving away from carrying a rezz which is good. If you stop healing, even for just 3 seconds, it is quite likely someone else will die. You MIGHT get away with a rezz signet, but why? Just make sure no one dies. A normal monk can usually manage that, if the mesmer can't then the above comments that you should be a monk are correct. I think Daze could be a problem, but that is because I usually run Contemplation of Purity in RA to deal with it and hex stacks, which is I guess what Purge Signet is for, but I consider it a fairly inferior replacement. All in all, my version of the bar would probably look like this:
 * Mend/Draw could be swapped for Dismiss and Veil could be swapped for Cure Hex/Inspired. Optional would flop around depending on my mood.

I find the argument that you are not a primary target to be flawed. As a monk primary the easiest thing to deal with is when the entire enemy team attacks you as you know who to prot and you can use your self defence. The hardest thing to deal with is damage split all over the place, but off-monk healers are workable, are usually pretty fun to play and can farm glads because people are stupid. Doesn't really make them good though, I kind of feel making builds purely for RA on PvX is a bit pointless because the RA meta is random and full of bad players. I would encourage people to play builds that will help them learn to be better at other kinds of PvP except when they are just assing around, which I tend to do a lot in RA, but I keep those builds in my user space. -  isery   -TALK  09:27, 19 May 2008 (EDT)


 * Wow, thank you very much for the intelligent reply. Purge sig is not only a replacement for Contemplate, but can be used to really save someones bacon during hex/condition stacking.  In 1.1 seconds you can kill all 7-8 hexes/conditions that show up in bad situations and you have SoR to use immediately afterwords to be followed up by WoH for the save and your energy hasent been nerfed to oblivion (I had a -120 energy hit from Purge, and was healing again with WoH in under 3 seconds after I fired off SoR).  I've noticed that as a monk, yes your not supposed to resurect, but you can also time and judge when its appropriate to spend those 3 seconds to get someone up and when it's not okay.  Battles go in lulls, pre-prot, pre-heal when a lull is happening and get your buddy up.  The re-usable part of that res has help synch those neck-to-neck fights in RA.  Its one of those appropriate moments type things.  Everyone else should exaughst sigs before you start diving in...  <font face="arial" color="Green">Shireen   former sysop  11:52, 19 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Thinking about it last night I think the best thing about this build is Signet of Rejuvination. It doesn't lose the Divine Favor bonus because it never had it anyway, gains benefits from mesmer signet recharging skills and loses it's downside of slow activation so you get a fairly quick, free 126 point heal. The direction I think this build should probably go in is a Me/Mo support healer with some shutdown or utility instead of a primary healer. Something like:
 * Bar looks pretty average to me as it is there and attribs will be messy so someone fix that idea for me. The other thought I had was anti-melee with Clumsiness and Ineptitude to get a kind of healer/anti-melee supporter or if you have godlike multitasking a standard interrupt type mesmer with healing. The interrupter might work on a hero. If you rolled a monk with this in RA you would insta-win. That happens with support healers in RA. - [[image:miserysig1.jpg]] isery   -TALK  10:26, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Scroll up to my original suggestion ;o --[[Image:Ibreaktoilets_Signature.jpg|User:Ibreaktoilets|20px]]<font color="Black">Tab  <font color="Black">Moo  10:46, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Where you said "take more prot"? I am confused. And the elite on the above mini bar should totally be Divert Hexes! - [[image:miserysig1.jpg]] isery   -TALK  10:55, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Where you said "take more prot"? I am confused. And the elite on the above mini bar should totally be Divert Hexes! - [[image:miserysig1.jpg]] isery   -TALK  10:55, 20 May 2008 (EDT)