Archive talk:R/D Scythe Spammer

Discussion
I personally find this build fun in PvE, but moreso in the TA than the RA(Since I have competant monks backing me up). The speed at which I attack is awesome, and I can only imagine the spam if I had BiP. Paragon City 02:14, 9 October 2007 (CEST)

looks like a lot of fun :D -- Kyrax 05:41, 9 October 2007 (CEST)

Attacker's Insight is an epic waste of a slot here, imo. Shouldn't Zealous Renewal, Zealous Sweep, and a zealous scythe be enough? If you just need it as a second enchantment for hex removal with pious restoration, there's probably a better option. Harrier's Grasp maybe? i dunno. People will just run away from this build and you won't be able to do anything about it.--Mafaraxas 05:47, 9 October 2007 (CEST)
 * True, attacker's insight could be optional. I'll make it an optional slot and put in your suggestion of Harrier's at the top.Paragon City 06:11, 9 October 2007 (CEST)

Looks so broken. So, so broken. --InternetLOL 06:02, 9 October 2007 (CEST)
 * The problem is, you're not doing anything with this build but raw attacking with 9...41 +8...16 damage. Taking a second look at harrier's grasp, the recharge and duration don't really help with what it would be used for here.  The build is a fun idea, but it's something i doubt you'll ever be able to make quite effective enough because you need maintain half the bar to make it work, plus the two scythe attacks which are critical to the build, leaving you one, maybe two slots to do anything else. --Mafaraxas 06:26, 9 October 2007 (CEST)
 * Perhaps not to good for the RA then... but I can't deny how amazing this was in the TA with a Warmonger Weapon Ritualist. I'll still leave the RA tag up for now though since I've had moderate(But not great) success in the RA, but fairly great success in the TA using the Attacker's Insight optional(1/4th cast makes it quick and painless to throw up, which is why I liked it.  And how it works with Zealous Sweep).  Probably my Nitpick earlier was Zealous Renewal, since I didn't know if it was useful or not(Until I tried pious restoration with the build, worked fairly well).  So yeah, this is a gimicky build, but with some teammates(Or non-monk RA teams, lol), you can use the gimick to your advantage.  I'll refrain from adding any of this comment into the build though(for now at least).  More feedback is always appreciated.  Oh, and also that this was some of the most fun I ever had as my ranger in PvE in a long time.Paragon City 06:34, 9 October 2007 (CEST)
 * Oh, and also you tend to crit a lot using said attacks because of how people tend to run away when spamming said attacks. But that's where a speed boost/cripple would come in.  Paragon City 06:35, 9 October 2007 (CEST)

(edit conflit) Needs more IAS/DW/Speed Buff/Anti-Kite/etc. for PvP. In order to be effective, you'll need more than simply a Speed Buff or an Anti-Kite. You'll also want to think about Deep Wound, and an IAS perhaps (it still might be good even with fast activation skills). *Defiant Elements*  +talk  06:36, 9 October 2007 (CEST)
 * Funny you mention Deep Wound. I was looking at Wearying Strike(Since it has a recharge of a little less than 1.5 seconds in this build), but I felt that the self weakness for 10 seconds is rough since there is no condition removal for weakness available bar an ally with condition removal. Granted, Featherfoot Grace or a rune to lower Weakness Duration could help(Since 5 seconds is more managable), but I am not sure. Though a lot of the scythe attacks open up to become one-skill wonders with this type of build, but I'm not gonna go into that further. I'm just gonna sleep on this for now, and hopefully come up with another skill that could be placed in the build to make it achieve its goal better(Like using Lightning Reflexes for the IAS and also some physical attack protection, for example). Too many possibilities to think on(The fun of GW after all).Paragon City 06:50, 9 October 2007 (CEST)
 * This build above all else deserves a 5 in innovation, but DE's words need to be taken seriously. Wearying Sweep appears to be the only way to DW, but regardless, the damage from this looks ridiculous.[[Image:Darksig.JPG]] 15:26, 9 October 2007 (CEST)

Whenever you feature an untested build on the main page, isn't it supposed to be in the testing phase, and not the trial phase?--Victoryisyours (talk /pvxcontribs ) 13:04, 9 October 2007 (CEST)
 * Yes, you're right. I could swear I moved it to testing... *bonks self on head* Thanks for pointing that out. Paragon City 03:52, 10 October 2007 (CEST)

Do you really need 16 expertise? Beast 8:47 6 October 2007 (GMT -6)
 * yes.[[Image:Darksig.JPG]] 18:49, 9 October 2007 (CEST)

Im not sure if there was a recent update that effected this, but at 15 expertise I am still spending 5 energy on the 3/4 second attacks.
 * You -need- to have 16 expertise for the energy cost of the scythe attacks to go down to four; see Expert's Dexterity for the details. And as has been said before, the relative cost is reduced to 2 by Zealous Renewal and a zealous scythe, and Zealous Sweep helps counter energy problems more. --Mafaraxas 18:40, 20 October 2007 (CEST)

Lol, Heroes
I tried this build on Acolyte Jin today. She performed alright... she kept Expert's Dexterity and Zealous renewal up, and used Attacker's Insight when available. Her biggest downfall... she didn't spam her scythe attacks fast enough. For heroes using this build, you probably want to lose Mystic's Sweep since the AI is too slow to calculate the recharge(She tended to just cycle between Zealous Sweep and Eremite's).Paragon City 04:29, 10 October 2007 (CEST)

Deep Wound
I've been thinking more about the Deep Wound aspect(Using Wearying Strike). The self-inflicted weakness might be alright and justifiable, but Wearying Strike would have to be the finishing attack. You could swap it with Eremite's or Mystic, and just alternate between Zealous Sweep and one of the 3/4th attack speed skills. Less damage, but a fairly nice finishing blow. I still wouldn't run it myself yet until I think of a better way to either utilize it, or to remove the condition in RA settings(Since in the TA, your monk can remove weakness for you when you call out your strike).Paragon City 16:38, 10 October 2007 (CEST)
 * Found the way, but not in an RA setting. "Find Their Weakness!".  Mabye I should remove the RA tag, and add an HA tag? (Since supposedly, this build could be used in the HA with viable support builds(Paragons with FTW, Necros with an Order spell, Rits with some Weapon Spells, etc).  This build isn't too hot in RA I guess(Since you can't choose the team), but in PvE, TA, AB, as well as GvG and HA technically, you can build a team around these guys by adding the proper support characters to them.Paragon City 16:08, 24 October 2007 (CEST)
 * Problem with that HA idea is that you're depending on a few of these guys to do all of the damage, making your entire offense vulnerable to blind/blocking/etc. --Mafaraxas 17:39, 24 October 2007 (CEST)
 * True, HA is its own ballgame compared to GvG as far as the 8v8 games go. Though I think it's a feasable type of character, mabye even build, to run in a GvG setting at the bare minimum.  Combined with an Orders Necro and two Paragons, it could make for an interesting split.  But that's all TheoryWars. Paragon City 08:26, 25 October 2007 (CEST)

Other ways to "lol" with this build from outside support

 * Warmonger's Weapon - "Wtf, I can't get my Guardian or ZB off!" - Prot Monk
 * Splinter Weapon - "Lol farming and clusters."
 * Strength of Honor/Judge's Insight - "Lol 100+ damage a hit."
 * Weaken Armor/Barbs - "Lol even MORE damage if I get those monk spells above me."
 * Brutal Weapon - "Lol, combined with above, that's just overkill."
 * Daze - "Lol you're screwed."
 * Wailing Weapon - "Lol melee."
 * Weapon of Fury - "Lol E-Management."
 * Order spells - "Lol OotV or OoP is back."

Etcetera... can't think of anymore off the top of my head. Paragon City 16:55, 10 October 2007 (CEST)
 * Fixed and added a couple links. I wish I had more time to actually test this; now I'm wondering how well you're actually managing energy when I do the math in my head... I'm probably missing something. --Mafaraxas 18:04, 10 October 2007 (CEST)
 * Thanks. Anyway, I find e-management best when using Attacker's Insight in the optional, but that's just personal experience.
 * And let me run some rough math by you. With 16 Expertise, it costs roughly 4.5 energy per scythe attack while under Expert's Dexterity.  If each attack hits, it's lowered to 3.5 a hit.  Extra enemies lower the cost to 2.5 at 2 enemies, and 1.5 at three enemies.  When zealous renewal wears off, you gain back energy equal to scythe hits, so technically it cheapens it to .5 energy an attack.  Natural energy regen(At 2 pips) give back 2 energy every 3 seconds.  5-6 attack can be done in 3 seconds if your target isn't moving too fast or stationary.  Zealous Sweep under Attacker's Insight will regain 4, 8 or 12 energy depending on foes, with no energy cost.  Using Zealous Sweep for both Attacker's Insight charges will be a minimum gain of 8-24 energy in 2.1 seconds + Scythe Attack animations.  Without Attacker's Insight, Zealous Sweep has a net cost of .5 energy if it hits on one foe, and has a positive gain at 2 or 3 foes.  Without Expert's Dexterity, Zealous Sweep costs 2.8 energy, and each use is a net gain of 2.2 energy on one foe.  Scythe attacks inbetween any attack spamming will be equal to about 3 energy pips through zealous, more for more foes.  Hope some of this rough math helps.  Paragon City 18:50, 10 October 2007 (CEST)

Good suggestion for more pressure and AoE conditions: put the rest of your attributes into wilderness (3 is good enough) and use Apply Poison. You add more pressure and could even through reap impurities in their for a minor heal. - Jak123X 03:58, 11 October 2007 (CEST)
 * Can't. Expert's Dexterity is a Preperation.  Apply Poison is a preperation.  Mabye Poison Tip Signet, but each use of it means you are doing 2 less Scythe attacks.

Attributes
This wins PvE. Why the bad attribute spread? You should be able to run 12 Scythe here. &mdash; Rapta   (talk|contribs) 22:36, 13 October 2007 (CEST)


 * I noticed that someone changed the build's attributes to 12 Scythe Mastery and 3 Wind Prayers. This change, however, doesn't remove 2 hexes(need 4 minimum).  However, 11 Scythe Mastery does up the spammable attacks to +9 instead of +8.  I think 11 Scythe Mastery and 6 Wind Prayers would function just as well as 12 and 3, but with more wind prayer versatility without losing out on much at all.  I'll change the attributes to reflect 11 and 6, since this change is beneficial to damage without sacraficing much wind prayer utility at all.Paragon City 23:35, 17 October 2007 (CEST)
 * why do you need wind at all? pious restoration seems pretty random.--Coloneh 02:18, 20 October 2007 (CEST)
 * Hex removal. It is kind of meh in TA when you have a caster taking care of hexes/conditions, but it's useful in RA and AB. --Mafaraxas 04:06, 20 October 2007 (CEST)
 * I've changed the attributes to 11+1+3 Expertise and 12 Scythe. There are no breakpoints hit with 16 Expertise. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 01:57, 21 October 2007 (CEST)
 * According to Expert's Dexterity on GWW, it combined with the natural Expertise bonus hits a breakpoint at 16 Expertise (5e skills go to 4e), and is really critical to the energy of this build. Unless of course that note isn't actually true (I still haven't tested this -.-) --Mafaraxas 07:15, 21 October 2007 (CEST)
 * 16 expertise is the 5 energy breakpoint, lowering it to 4. Trust me, I tried it with 15, the 1 extra energy expedenture hurts.  Reverting back to 16 and 11. Paragon City 05:19, 22 October 2007 (CEST)

Removing RA Tag
I'm going to remove the RA tag. This build isn't perfect for an RA setting since it needs assistance from other people. Hopefully this will cause some people to re-evaluate their rating based on RA criteria, since I do agree that it lacks pizazz for the RA. However, in TA, PvE and AB, I still find this fantastic with teammates to augment you. Paragon City 09:16, 29 October 2007 (CET)
 * Also to reflect current rating, changed the category to Working Builds: Other. Paragon City 15:33, 29 October 2007 (CET)

Build Change
Since I removed the RA tag, I removed Pious Restoration from the build(Since in a TA, PvE and sometimes AB setting, teammates will remove hexes). I placed it in the optional and variants. In its place, I put Crippling Sweep(Optional) and Attacker's Insight. This build now has a snare on a 1.5 second cooldown that lasts 7 or 14 seconds if you're the only enchanter, or more with teammate enchants. The snare in Crippling Sweep should be a good boost to the usability of this build. I debated on Crippling Victory since recharge isn't a problem at all in this build, but it's not reliable for Cripple since you're running a Superior Rune.Paragon City 21:26, 29 October 2007 (CET)


 * I still think the build needs a IAS. Scythe attacks are so extremly slow without an IAS. [[Image:Healing_Burst.jpg|19px]] †Godliest† -- My Sandbox  21:15, 8 November 2007 (CET)
 * ...have you read the build intro? [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] frvwfr2  (T/C/Sysop) 21:20, 8 November 2007 (CET)
 * an IAS? someone obviously hasnt seen the build.--Coloneh 07:25, 20 November 2007 (CET)

A Suggestion
How about running this with two of the lesser-important attack skills replaced by Victorious and Twin Moon Sweeps. This would give rudimentary self healing (or not that rudimentary, Victorious is capable of giving ~210 health maximum IIRC), and TMS could be used to cancel ZR when you require a burst of energy at a precise moment. Thoughts? The Unrealist 08:34, 25 November 2007 (CET)
 * I wanted to run Victorious Sweep(And Crippling Victory too), but this build needs a Superior rune, and thus the low HP hurts your chances with Victorious Sweep. Unless you run a health boosting skill, your HP isn't going to be very impressive to land the healing from Victorious sweep(I think it's around 545-565 HP you have with proper gear, I forget, havn't run it in a while).  This build has Pious Restoration as a variant, which gives healing, hex removal, and can remove ZR as well.  It actually worked quite well when I ran it(It was an RA variant), but not too great in team settings.  In closing, I'd love to put in Victorious Sweep, but the low max HP hurts it a bit(What with many people running around with 600+ hp these days. Paragon City 02:39, 27 November 2007 (CET)


 * Could Vitae and Sup Vigor runes not be used to offset this drawback? And, since you don't mention any specific insignia to use, how about Survivor's? The Unrealist 11:45, 28 November 2007 (CET)
 * ...That's 555 max HP with full Survivor's and Vitae, a Sup Vigor, and a +30hp weapon mod. --71.229.204.25 11:49, 28 November 2007 (CET) if the late hour hasn't fried my brain, that is.
 * That's correct, just re-loaded the build yesterday, and it's 555 HP with all possible HP mods. Victorious attacks ain't going to be proccing against many classes.  04:30, 29 November 2007 (CET)

Pious Assault...
I think I found my new best friend! I am updating this build! Paragon City 12:57, 30 January 2008 (EST)


 * Perhaps this...

[build prof=Ranger/Dervish Expertise=12+1+3 Scythe=11 Wind=6][Crippling Victory][Mystic Sweep][Eremite's Attack] [Lyssa's Assault][Pious Assault][Attacker's Insight][Expert's Dexterity][Zealous Renewal][/build] With this, you have E-Management with Zealous Renewal, and more by using Attacker's Insight followed up with Lyssa's Assault and then Pious Assault(In the order, it gives you back lots of energy, while also negating the steep cost of the two skills entirely). Crippling Victory can be used to cover deep wound and stop runners, and obviously, you spam Mystic Sweep and Eremite's Attacks. The major hole in this build(Deep wound) is now covered, and with a skill that fits EXCELLENTLY into the Scythe Spammer's skill list(Especially since it has the fact activation time too).Paragon City 13:27, 30 January 2008 (EST)
 * Also, with Lyssa's Assault, the energy gain cannot be "Missed" like with Zealous Sweep. A block, or being blinded, will still net you your energy if you meet the conditions(And if you have Attacker's Insight up when using it, durrrr).  Lyssa's will recharge so fast, you can use both charges of Attacker's Insight for Lyssa's Assault alone, gaining back 10 + 1 +1 + 10 + 1 + 1 energy(10s from Lyssas, two 1's from Zealous weapon mod, two 1's from Zealous Renewal).  Hell, this could possibly go PvP.  Paragon City 13:32, 30 January 2008 (EST)
 * Too many attack skills there; if you make that the main bar, replace Lyssa's for res signet imo. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] Mafaraxas 13:36, 30 January 2008 (EST)
 * Yeah, I was trying to work a res sig into it, but the sheer thought of finding a use for Pious Assault was overcoming me at the time, and I couldn't find a skill to swap out for a res sig. The reason I don't want to lose Lyssa's is because with only Attacker's Insight and Zealous Renewal, it's still not enough energy management for such a spammy build(Where either Zealous Sweep or Lyssa's Assault comes in to augment Attacker's Insight in your favor).  Lyssa's Assault works against block and blind(Which has always been a problem in PvP, which is what this skillbar would be for, the PvE one will be unchanged for now), but I never used it because of the high energy requirement(I think it goes down to 8 or 9 when Expert's Dexterity is up).  And since it nets back 10, that means you'll actually make energy with each swing, and it'll always be ready every 3 seconds(A little faster, but that's just an estimate).  So you can even throw it into the chain against a single target, and end up with positive energy by using it, even without Attacker's Insight.  The only skill I think is "lose-able" is Crippling Victory, IMO, even though it's the only way to keep a target near you without resorting to a speed boost.  Though Lyssa's Haste, the Speed Boost/E-Management skill is available for use(But hurts with no self healing method too much for it to be usable in a PvP scale).  That, or lose Zealous Renewal(But then you lose a core part of the build, as well as a +9 damage augmenter for mystic).  I just want to be able to include Pious Assault into a Scythe Spammer-like build so that it can be PvP viable(Gaining Deep Wound), but it's so hard to actually decide on skills that work.  I just need to run multiple tests like I did with the original Scythe Spammer.  Paragon City 12:48, 31 January 2008 (EST)

Pious Assault Worked
Tested this:

[build prof=Ranger/Dervish Expertise=12+1+3 Scythe=11 Wind=6] [Attacker's Insight][Lyssa's Assault][Pious Assault][Mystic Sweep][Eremite's Attack][Expert's Dexterity][Zealous Renewal][Resurrection Signet][/build]

It works. Might try to find a new E-Management skill to replace Zealous Renewal if I want to really spam Pious.

Keep Zealous Renewal up if you can, and keep that Zealous Scythe out. Use Attacker's Insight followed by Pious Assault with your opening strike(So as not to strip Zealous Renewal with it), and then go to town with your two spammy skills. If you need energy, use Attacker's Insight followed up with two Lyssa's Assaults(The recharge is less than 3 seconds). If you want Zealous Renewal to end for a burst of energy, or if it's about to run out/has run out, use Attacker's Insight, then Lyssa's Assault followed by Pious Assault, and go to town with the spammy skills again. Zealous Sweep is still a viable variant for Lyssa's, but Lyssa's gives back at the bare minimum 11 energy(10 Lyssa's + 1 Zealous Scythe + 1-3 Zealous Renewal(If up)), and that's with one target. Zealous needs 3 targets to get that. Paragon City 15:35, 14 February 2008 (EST)
 * LOL now its attackers insight for 2 energy only skills. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Frans (contribs) 19:34, 19 February 2008.
 * Exper'ts Dexterity brings the costs up by a lot for all the attack skills, if you never noticed...Paragon City 14:43, 19 February 2008 (EST)

My build is ripped
I originally posted this as a PvP build and it got vetted out D=< --Risus 18:48, 9 March 2008 (EDT)
 * lern2properarena. --71.229 18:50, 9 March 2008 (EDT)

Nerfed
Due to a recent skill update, both fast activation skills have been raised to a casting time of 1 second. 68.231.12.44 18:59, 18 April 2008 (EDT)
 * /uninstall please Close Impact   talk  16:13, 31 May 2008 (EDT)
 * U herd him. --  Super Igor   *ninja!!*  16:27, 31 May 2008 (EDT)

Archive?
Expert's Dexterity doesn't reduce recharges anymore, and Archive:R/D Expert Scythe covers the new version. --Toraen 14:10, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

RIP Scythe Spammer. It'll always have a spot in my PvE heart for what it was able to do. Paragon City 02:43, 14 August 2008 (EDT)

Unarchive and merge?
With Archive:R/D Expert Scythe? Experts was reverted back to awesomeness a while back, so this build should be viable again. Karate  Jesus  15:41, 8 July 2010