User:Shireen/talk - Premade Builds Policy

I get it, I really do
With the below haveing been said: If improving or having the premade / PvP Primer builds and usage here on the site will constitute a laps in judgement and bad builds, there still needs to be a place on this site that is aimed at New PVP players and a set of instructions or exercises that will help improve their skills. (PvE is covered extensively at guildwiki) Right now the closest thing we have on this site is the pre-made section (which I tried to fix following what was allready pre-existant). Then are we going to remove the pre-made section? What sort of solutions can we come up with to address limited experience/new to PVP players who come looking to this site for a way to improve themselves? Telling them to go digging through the builds is not teaching. So I am out of ideas at this point. Shireen 08:34, 6 May 2007 (CEST)

The below having been said
...This isn't a question of simplicity. ANet's build is not simpler; it is inferior. Anyone can see that they are different, yet new players won't know why they are different, and what it is that makes the popular one good. You're providing new players with horrible advice by saying that that primer guide-build is a goodie. In the end, you will have got them convinced that the primer bar is the good bar, and he will be the worse player for it. He will never understand the ridicule he will receive for running that build, and all in all it will just make his game experience worse. (P.S. Bad advice aside, the primer guide articles are riddled with bad information. Bow attacks certainly are suspect to interruption!) - Krowman (talk • contribs) 08:09, 6 May 2007 (CEST)

Allright then, lets fix it. Lets put in a PvX recomended subcategory and get them going on the right path. The groundwork has been properly laid. We can put whatever information would be best for them to use. And I understand that the Anet builds are simplistic, thats why I put a link to the favored builds on all Primer Follow-Up builds with a note: If you want more advanced builds... Shireen 08:11, 6 May 2007 (CEST)
 * Again, it is not simple and advanced; this is about good and bad. Builds that PvX recommends will be the builds and guides we offer to the user base. The best information for people looking to play a BA Ranger would be to play the build I demonstrated above. Let GW.com host their own builds; don't let the reputation of this site (at such an early stage!) get dragged down with it. - Krowman (talk • contribs) 08:17, 6 May 2007 (CEST)
 * Okay, I see your perspective on this very clear. I personally don't understand why these builds are so bad for new players because they have helped me out so much. A new to PVP type guide (with build and training sugestions) does need to be created to help improve our community and adress every skill level that comes to PvX. If the administration wants to remove the entire section on that basis (of these builds being sub-standard), I have no problem with that. I've allready put a lot of work into this section and I just ask that ya move it my userspace upon deletion (If that would be allright). I am going to finish it (I have one more page to put in (for the hero-team traing), and a few scripting thingies with the links to fix) and then I will completely stop. Promise, I will be done by tongiht. Since ya'll are so adamant about this being a bad idea, at least I have created some kind of working/visual model in which to base the PvX beginner guides and builds. Shireen 08:25, 6 May 2007 (CEST)


 * Retrieved from "http://www.pvxbuilds.com/index.php?title=User_talk:Shireen"

General Discussion
Allright guys, that is what I can think of so far. If we can build this section and give it a better-name/better-visabilty on the front page, I think a lot of the problems we see with bad-builds or "This Build Don't Work" may be mitigated. I have allready put some work into the 'follow-up' section of the pre-made areas. But I could use some advice and sujestions on how to really improve this expansion idea. Shireen 21:24, 5 May 2007 (CEST)
 * The old Premades ought to be retained for historical reference.
 * The entire PvX wiki can be used by new players. The whole thing is basically a big complilation of premades.
 * VERY IMPORTANT: The builds posted by Guildwars.com suck. Period. For example, they posted a "tried-and-true" Prot monk using gw:Holy Haste, including Usage notes on how to best use HH with your Prot skills. They even managed to screw up the Shock Axe in one of their articles. The best thing I can remember them posting was a Burniong Arrow Ranger. At best, their articles are only partially useful. We can provide better information with the proper Builds section here anyways. Besides, why should we post duplicate builds? If people wanted to see GW.com builds, they'd go to GW.com. - [[Image:Kowal.jpg|15px]] Krowman  (talk • contribs) 21:41, 5 May 2007 (CEST)
 * The builds on GW.Com are hard to find and are buried under theory eratta. These articles really helped me get to where I am today and I wished that they were posted here on the PVX area for easy refrence.  That and most people don't know about the primer articles.  You say the builds suck, but as I mentioned somewhere, they are geared toward new player and are 'stepping stones' to understanding the game and reaching the point they can understand and use our 'Uber-Elite-Advanced-builds-of-Killing-Everything".  It's a refrence section that is not part of the normal -Builds- section.  You will only see these builds if you go into these area's.  But I do agree with you that the old Premades out to be retained for historical refrence.  I've allready talked to a few people about restoring them (They didn't make it over from the build wipe).  Im just putting this out there, because I want to work on this section.  I feel it would help a lot of people.  Shireen 21:50, 5 May 2007 (CEST)


 * No one's complaining that they're hard to find and are "buried". If anything, having those builds buried is a good thing. Rapta 06:41, 6 May 2007 (CEST)


 * Then why did the premade category still make it over from the migration? I've read the PVP Primer article and they have been steadily updating pertinant information recently (some as early as 14 March, the oldest being 27 February) and the advice is good.  I've personally gone through every training scenario and my skills as a PVP player have greately improved.  I also understand better what makes a good build work and understand some of my previous mistakes.  Isn't that what we want here on PvX - People to not suck at understanding builds?  And where else on this site is there a section for new players?  That audience still needs to be taken into account.  The strength of the builds I currently have posted in the "Primer Follow-Up" section are all geared towards new players.  Everywhere else on this site is aimed at, and expects advanced understanding of play mechanics.  How else are new players going to be able to reach that level? Shireen 07:01, 6 May 2007 (CEST)


 * It made it over because we migrated everything because it was easier. That doesn't mean it's any good at all. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 07:06, 7 May 2007 (CEST)

Posting of Discontinued Builds Discussion (Premade Legacy Section)
With all this said below, I feel that we should document these discontinued builds as they are not currently residing here or on Guildwiki and were part of builds released by Anet.
 * I understand and appreciate not wanting to post these some 25+ builds on this site to save room. Would this policy be stronger if we did not archive discontinued premade builds?  Shireen 06:30, 6 May 2007 (CEST)

--


 * I'm sorry, but I don't think so. Let's take a look at a few of their builds:

[build prof=monk/warri healin=10 smitin=10 swords=11 name="Mo/W Zealot"][galrath slash][final thrust][bane signet][signet of judgment][mending][live vicariously][orison of healing][resurrect][/build]

[build name="me/w spell slasher" prof=me/w fastca=4 domina=12 inspir=7 swords=10][resurrection signet][final thrust][shatter enchantment][ether feast][skull crack][chaos storm][backfire][power drain][/build]

[build name="me/r dazer" prof=mesme/range fastca=7 illusi=12 inspir=7 marksm=12][arcane conundrum][drain enchantment][precision shot][concussion shot][distracting shot][epidemic][ether feast][energy tap][/build]


 * As a semi-experienced PvPer, I cannot condone these builds teaching future PvPers how to PvP. As the writer of PvX:WELL, I cannot condone these builds lying around on this site. (Please note that I am not speaking as a sysop here.) As such, I disagree with this policy. I also happen to disagree with all seven points you bring up in the first section. If you want to save the build pages as part of your userspace, ask myself or any sysop to copy the last deleted edit into a page for you, and we'll do it if we have time. (Policies/real life things/GvGs are sucking up a lot of time for me, at least.) -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 01:54, 6 May 2007 (CEST)


 * Those builds would not be on either of the "Premade", "Follow-up" , or "State of the Game" pages but on the "Premade Legacy Page", which I'll put a disclaimer on to say, 'Builds are bad, and are an example of what not to do, but may provide an idea or two for future builds.' These builds will be in an archived state, if you will - Documenting build officially released to the public by A-Net.  We allready have an archived section for the 'old school' builds that were nerfed to oblivion for historical purposes.  The Premade and Follow-up sections so far are looking like the hundreds of repeat builds that slam this site. And the admins could simply point to this section to make their point to better explain -This build allready exists - or 'We KNOW this build doesnt work" and place a delete tag.


 * The trainers are in the Premade and Primer Follow-Up, and State of the Game sections. If you'd take a look at the work I've allready done, you may get an idea of what Im trying to accomplish.  I realize that there is no official policy yet on how the premade section is to be handled, but Im trying to make is so we have a starting point if we want to go in this direction.  If not my pages can be easily removed or deleted later.  Shireen 02:24, 6 May 2007 (CEST)
 * This isn't the place to store Arena-net's builds. It's simply not useful to most players to see outdated builds. Knowledge of useless builds like the old premades do not help at all when it comes to maintaining a proper builds section. If anything, people writing bad builds will use these builds as an excuse to vet their own build. If there's any "legacy" that's being left behind by these horrendous builds, it's the impact they've made on the entire population of GW that thinks Mending is useful in GvG. Rapta 06:36, 6 May 2007 (CEST)