Build talk:A/any Wastrel's Collapse Daggers

Comparison with competitors
"Compared to a WotA Dagger Spammer, this variant provides a more spammable shadowstep, and uses a stance which provides both IMS and IAS, allowing for greater mobility. The trade-off is reduced critical strike occurrences, but this should be offset by the build's greater mobility."

"Compared to a Shadow Theft Daggers, this variant provides greater versatility, as it takes 3 very powerful utility/resiliency PvE-only skills. It has the potential to have increased mobility compared the Shadow Theft Daggers, but in general, you are left making less give-and-take choices between PvE-only skills. The trade-off of Wastrel's is that it will have slightly reduced damage and critical strike occurrences under ideal conditions."

Let's assess the characteristics of these builds. By the looks of it I'd disagree with the page statements. Assuming three attack skills, a shadow step, asuran scan and IAU as core skills, we're at two free skill slots. Critical eye is usually necessary for proper skill spamming, so we're at 7 skills. Depending on the shadow step (wastrel's collapse vs. shadow theft vs. death's charge) we end up with different IAS options. In case of wastrel's collapse we can take any cheap IAS available, including PvE-only skills, so we'll have either critical agility (inconvenient, easily removed) or drunken master. In case of shadow theft we can take any secondary profession IAS, I picked bestial fury. In case of death's charge the best pick is way of the assassin, since the elite skill slot is still free and the added critical hit chance synergizes perfectly with the energy demand of the attack chain. We end up with very similar builds: All of them have a shadow step, a meek IAS, scan, IAU. However, two builds have clear advantages. Shadow theft boosts its attributes to 20, increasing its damage output. Way of the assassin has the best energy management, making it more convenient to use and potentially allowing to drop critical eye for save yourselves, a vastly potent skill. The only characteristic specific to wastrel's collapse is the 15% IMS from drunken master, which is paid with the worst energy management of the three builds. The page recommends blood is power usage, assuming hero teams and micro management. However, with hero teams, you entirely lose the advantages of IMS, since (a) you either have 33% IMS on the heroes anyway or (b) you have to wait for your heroes before shadow-stepping into the foes or you're very dead. With the options we have I'd always end up with either shadow theft for offense or way of the assassin for utility and ease of use. Wastrel's Collapse's only advantage is the IMS which can't be used in the hero team environment it requires. --Krschkr (talk) 13:31, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Wastrel's Collapse: Requires micro management due to worst energy management, inconvenient gameplay due to unusable IMS.
 * Shadow Theft: Best offense due to sufficient energy and highest attribute ranks aswell as most potent IAS.
 * Way of the Assassin: Decent offense due to best energy management, option to be more versatile by bringing SY, worst shadow step recharge time.
 * So I guess a few things stood out to me in your reply which I'd like to address. Thank you for this analysis btw.


 * WotA definitely requires critical eye for e-management.
 * We use BiP as a justification for many melee builds on PvX, so although other sin elites require less/no BiP, I'm not sure why we can't apply the same principle which we apply to other melee builds to this build. I agree it takes a little extra microing, but that kind of argument seems to barely affect the build's effectiveness from current pvx precedence.
 * I think I shouldn't have stated in the top level description that this is a "compromise between...". Tbh, I've run this bar for quite a while. I just can't be bothered to run WoTA, its energy is not fantastic either, lack of IMS and long recharging shadow step is the real problem for me though.
 * You're going to also run into energy issues using Bestial Fury with ST, and you kind of acknowledged that.
 * "Leaving elite slot free" on other builds. I guess, show me which other elites you would run? ST and WotA, so I present this option. We can't just make a blanket statement of "other elites" without having a hard look at what other elites we are talking about. We are comparing 3 elites. The elite is actually not that important in sin dagger spam, it serves more of a supplementary role instead of a build-defining role. There was actually a time when WotA was controversially, and people used the similar arguments "its a wasted elite". Not that it matters, but I was part of the WotA train back when it was a controversial skill.
 * What does "unusable IMS" even mean, dog?
 * I acknowledged the slight decrease in DPS 'assuming ideal conditions'. The idea is that its ok to sacrifice a little bit of DPS, if it means you can actually connect your attacks more frequently due to greater mobility.
 * Related to damage, it would be interesting to look at some stats. We have to remember that Strength of Honor and Splinter are a large source of damage as well, so the difference in a higher crit rate and higher dagger master doesn't seem too substantial imo. We're largely talking about a small increase in armor respecting damage in both case, on a 7-17 weapon. Sure, ST boosts the bonus damage of attack skills, but not substantially.
 * Not that this really matters, but the ST page lists a bunch of funny optional skills because it has less PvE-only skill options. Doesn't really affect the debate, but it does stand out as perhaps a distraction from the fact.
 * I mean sure, we can talk about SY!, but doesn't seem to be a large factor here. Plenty of melee builds don't run SY! these days.
 * With alcohol drunken master is obviously even better.
 * I honestly find shadow step to be absolutely crucial to melee. Makes a huge difference when you can shadow step into a clump of enemies as a fight opener, it's a game changer dog.
 * Reiterating that I think the other sin elites, WotA and ST, also require BiP to a degree. WC barely requires it as well, but I thought I would be explicit in stating this, instead of glossing over the fact like the other build pages do :D
 * Appreciate the debate, if I missed anything, let me know. These are also just some of my first impressions to your analysis, I wanted to offer some quick feedback. Will circle back and take another look.
 * :D:D:D Us3r1OO425457 (talk) 14:06, 10 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Do both of you actually consider IAU essential? I never run it on my assassin.. -- Chieftain Alex (talk) 18:51, 10 November 2020 (UTC)


 * I'd keep it on the main bars of PvX pages since we want to offer general use builds. The increased survivability (that's stackable) and immunity to some forms of CC is useful in so many places that, in my opinion, it deserves to be on melee build main bars. Build variants without IAU should rather be part of the variants section.
 * About BiP, is there any melee build that states that it requires BiP or at least should be used with BiP support that is not a caster profession? Heroes will use BiP on ritualists, monks, necromancers and elementalists even when they wield daggers and other martial weapons, but not on assassins. Their BiP dependency does not involve micro management, whereas that of martial professions wielding martial weapons does.
 * About alcohol: I don't use consumables, so drunken master is a 15% IAS/IMS for me. --Krschkr (talk) 19:56, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't see any martial profession pages which explicitly state that BiP is required, but I think it is assumed in many cases. I find WotA to be tight on energy, and you also mentioned that the ST bar you posted is tight on energy and requires auto-attacking to regain energy. That's the point I'm trying to make. WC is in the same boat, it generally does fine with energy, but there are times where you are going to have to auto-attack. One energy benefit of WC is that it uses drunken master, which is less expensive to keep up. WoTA and ST will cause a bit more energy gain in theory, but this is countered by spamming a 10 energy IAS and using other skills. WotA and ST also gain energy during downtime when they are walking to their next target :D. In my definition, if a sin bar requires auto-attacking to gain energy to be able to perform a chain, then that bar requires BiP. I think the other pages should state that BiP is required, because having to auto-attack to gain energy is unacceptable imo. Thing is, hit yourself up with a BiP every once and a while, and this goes away. No problems with this on my end. Also Build:W/A_Seven_Weapons_Stance_Daggers talk page talks a lot about energy difficulties. Microing a BiP every once and a while definitely increases your DPS on WoTA, ST, and WC. If you aren't doing this, then you aren't using the most effective tactic :D. Build difficulty is not applicable to build rating. RE: Drunken Master. I think we may be overstating the benefit of IAS. If we aren't relying on auto attacks, then we should be spamming dagger chain constantly. 1/2 attacks and dual attack makes IAS not hugely important, but a 15% IAS is a noticeable improvement, assuming you aren't spending time auto-attacking. I would like to clarify that I propose this build without the need for alcohol, but if the community feels strongly that 33% IAS is required, then we can throw a requires-consumables tag on this, not a deal breaker for me. Also, agreed with your points about IAU - it can help a lot with pulling, and keeping you attacking/mobile during mid-fight. It's a good suggestion for mainbars at the very least. Us3r1OO425457 (talk) 23:59, 10 November 2020 (UTC)