Build talk:Team - 7 Hero Non merc Heroic Refrain

Name
The name is just a placeholder, so any input is welcome. ZStepmother (talk) 11:20, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Heroic Refrain is the reason this team exists, so it definitely has a place in the name (Heroic / Heroic Refrain)
 * Imo, it's annoying that you can't figure out if teams require mercs or not just from the name, which is why I included "Non merc".
 * This team is just a combination of the best builds available to player without mercenary heroes: Standard ST + BiP backline. 3 mesmers because they are always the strongest damage dealers. 2 extra heroes (currently the EA eles) with the second highest damage output.
 * You can't really call it Mesmerway, since there are only 3 mesmers
 * Xanshiz suggested to add something like "Burning" to the name. I disagree, because that's not really the focus of the teambuild. On top of that, it's not certain that the eles will be in the final build.
 * Now that the Mainbar seems to have been settled and the team is out of trial, I'd like to revisit this discussion. There are two things that separate this setup from the generic MeMeMe/BiP/ST comp:
 * Heroic Refrain
 * Two air elementalists
 * A name incorporating those two factors might be worth considering --Xanshiz (talk) 06:52, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

ST
The ST can use some more finetuning. Current equipment issues: The last Optional slot is also a question: ZStepmother (talk) 11:20, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Shaman's over Blessed, because you'll probably have some spirits up as they are very beefy, while it's quite likely that Boon gets removed (although this might not be an issue, as the current team has 4 more enchantments thanks to the EA eles)
 * Attribute runes and weapon setup: since the ST has splinter, it makes sense to have a weaponset that enhances the usage of Splinter weapon.
 * 40/40 channeling means you lose 60HP, which means that the ST has low HP with the current rune setup
 * Channeling staff with 40% HCT, which leaves the option of taking +1/20% or +30 HP, which also influences the rune setup
 * Hex removal like Cure Hex, because the mesmers seem reluctant to use Shatter Hex in combat when they can't damage enemies with it. This might cause some problems with annoying hexes like Migraine (hurts your casters), or anti-shout hexes (which means you can't keep up Heroic Refrain)
 * Spirit Siphon just gives extra energy, but the ST doesn't really have energy issues and heroes don't use Spirit Siphon that well
 * Ancestor's Rage for extra damage

Mending Refrain
I don't know think it's worth going for the +3 regen breakpoint for Mending Refrain is worth taking. Having 4 charges on ST is much more valuable imo. This would make it so Mending Refrain only give +2 regen, which makes me wonder if it's worth taking at all. On the other hand, there aren't many other skills worth taking in that slot. ZStepmother (talk) 11:18, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Don't take it on the ST. If you want it, you could put it on the Me/any (you don't need or want 3 copies of spain). Alternatively put it on an E/P -- you have attributes (and skill slots) to spare. --Xanshiz (talk) 16:56, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

BiP
ZStepmother (talk) 11:25, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I picked a Sup SR rune, but that might be overkill
 * It doesn't make sense to pick Blood Bond, so you have an empty slot.
 * You probably don't take an MM, so Life loses some value (the heal is unreliable). On top of that, the hero already maintains PwK, and taking Life means he is even more prone to falling behind the team, which makes it annoying to keep Heroic Refrain active
 * Recup is quite costly, but you have very high SR anyway
 * Could take damage skills (Putrid Explosion for example), but as he is the only healer, he will be busy casting heals instead of dealing damage

Mesmers
I just copy pasted the hero bars from bip melee support. It's quite possible that they aren't optimal. ZStepmother (talk) 11:33, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Spiritual Pain might lose its value, because the other spells are very spamable
 * With the current Inspiration level, the skills return a high amount of energy. Double inspi is probably overkill. It would be nice to keep ench removal to deal with some annoying enchantments tho
 * Maybe an illusion split becomes a viable choice (Wandering eye + arcane connondrum)
 * It's sad that the res skills are on the mesmer bars. It would be nice to move them to other bars like the ST and BiP, but with a single healer it's still important that your backline stays effective (especially now that you don't have permanent SY)
 * With the new update, I think the mesmer bars should probably stay the way they are right now. ZStepmother (talk) 17:45, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Hero 6 & 7
The big question is which bars do you take for hero 6 & 7. I thinks it's preferable to not take the MM: I think it makes sense to look to elementalists to fill up the remaining slots. They are rank 3 in terms of damage (1 being mesmers and 2 the bone fiend MM) after all. Thanks to Heroic refrain, it's possible to mix the different elements, which resulted into the current EA elementalist. Perhaps we didn't think of some skills that should be included, or perhaps there is a hidden necro/monk build that is better at abusing the +6 on all attributes, which is why this is the main point of discussion for this teambuild. Input is very welcome here ZStepmother (talk) 12:24, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Is prone to falling behind the team, which makes it annoying to maintain heroic refrain
 * The damage output of the mesmers is very large, so it's possible that fiends don't see much action because fights are shorter (and they are slow to the fights)
 * Here's a crazy idea:
 * Double-proccing dark aura via masochism for big aoe armor ignoring damage. Unholy feast will heal for 415 Health. Signet of Agony will apply bleeding, which will hopefully trigger a MBaS cast, helping to keep the hero healthy. Optionally replace with Wallow's Bite for more damage. Give hero best sword/axe/focus applicable. Would benefit greatly from bloodbond on BiP. Also is able to bring Putrid explosion, which is lol @deathmagic20. Pros: armor ignoring. Cons: Everything else. Hella damage on master of damage, avg dps 160. Not that it means anything, but this might go well with a player build combined with HR. Even though it is melee range, and will invariable draw agro, i dont see how with ST+paragon that it's a big deal.
 * Double-proccing dark aura via masochism for big aoe armor ignoring damage. Unholy feast will heal for 415 Health. Signet of Agony will apply bleeding, which will hopefully trigger a MBaS cast, helping to keep the hero healthy. Optionally replace with Wallow's Bite for more damage. Give hero best sword/axe/focus applicable. Would benefit greatly from bloodbond on BiP. Also is able to bring Putrid explosion, which is lol @deathmagic20. Pros: armor ignoring. Cons: Everything else. Hella damage on master of damage, avg dps 160. Not that it means anything, but this might go well with a player build combined with HR. Even though it is melee range, and will invariable draw agro, i dont see how with ST+paragon that it's a big deal.


 * With cracked armor for themselves, ele looks like the best. And can bring fallback, which is nice. Since you're going triple e-surge, why not take 1 Bsurge and 1 SF ele? that could be a defensive option (like you need it), for more reliable burning for "They're on fire!" and for blind. Would definitely be helpful with only 1 healer. Willarddog (talk) 05:44, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
 * That build looks... crazy to say the least. It would be nice to have a BSurge elementalist yeah, but it's it's hard to come up with a build that utilizes the +6 on all attributes. I'm not considering an SF ele. Their damage is pathetic compared to Air eles and EA Fire eles. You don't need extra defense. ZStepmother (talk) 08:12, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I do agree that SF deals less damage, and the current builds have plenty of burning anyways. Blinding Surge ele could always be an optional hero. Alternatively, you could list Ash Blast (60% miss chance @11 earth) over one or both shell shocks. Two Ash Blasts would provide a good amount of anti-melee, which is lacking significantly, and save Displacement procs. Weaken armor can go on the BiP, and with its short recharge and (8?9?) curses should last long enough. Blurred vision is another option.
 * Also, mending refrain on the ST like with the Merc version over any of those optionals imo. Willarddog (talk) 14:18, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't think Weaken Armor is a good idea since the bip is the only healer. You want him to be healing, and not "waste" time casting other spells. It just makes it more danagerous. I know Mending Refrain is an option, I just wanted to wait for some input before making changes. I don't think it's a big deal that you have to rely on Displacement, the spirits are super strong anyway and you have a lot of firepower so fights don't last long. I don't really consider blurred vision simply because it deals no damage. Ash blast is okay, but then you are dropping the air magic spells so you have to find another earth/fire spell to fill the bar. It also reduces the amount of cracked armor, which is quite important for ele bars like this. ZStepmother (talk) 09:18, 30 April 2020 (UTC)


 * What about using N/Me "fake ES"? I was thinking something along those lines:
 * with Death Magic 11+3, SoulReaping 6+xx and Domination at 12.
 * The only spell that has a 2s cast-time is ESurge. That's why I opted for Putrid Bile instead of Mistrust and if we already have 2 SPain there's no need for a third one, thus Putrid Explosion and/or Power Spike.
 * The only spell that has a 2s cast-time is ESurge. That's why I opted for Putrid Bile instead of Mistrust and if we already have 2 SPain there's no need for a third one, thus Putrid Explosion and/or Power Spike.


 * If you take 2 of those N/Me you could change one of the Mesmer-heroes into Ineptitude with Fall Back and Mending Refrain, give another Fall Back to an ESurge and put one FoMF onto the ST and one onto the last Mesmer.
 * I have not yet tried this (except for NM NF-mission where I had to take Master of Whispers since Olias was already my BiP healer) because I do have Mercenaries.--Haquillo (talk) 17:59, 29 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Rez on ST is bad. If he's rezzing, he's not protecting your team. Rez is typically preferred on mesmers only because of Fast Casting.


 * Also, there are reasons why fake esurges are not preferred. One is the lack of fast casting. Fast casting is what makes mesmers strong, not domination spells. Two is the long cast time and recharge of e-surge. It's just the wimpy little brother to mesmer's e-surge.


 * I think a better variation is running an Icy Veins nuker in atleast one slot. The extra hexes will help unnatural signet too.
 * https://gwpvx.gamepedia.com/Build:N/any_Icy_Veins_Hero Maybe something like this:
 * Masochism also allows for really great attribute spread; with runes With 9+2+1 death and 9+3 soul reaping, you can run 12 in any secondary attribute. You can take curses (weaken armor + ?), command (deep wound + fallback), Domination (CoF, unnatural, Shatter Hex), etc. Works well with a hero which would already bring cracked armor to help icy veins, such as the split ele on the buildpage, or a B-Surge ele. This would allow you to bring Fallback on both the ST and ele to get 2 copies.
 * Masochism also allows for really great attribute spread; with runes With 9+2+1 death and 9+3 soul reaping, you can run 12 in any secondary attribute. You can take curses (weaken armor + ?), command (deep wound + fallback), Domination (CoF, unnatural, Shatter Hex), etc. Works well with a hero which would already bring cracked armor to help icy veins, such as the split ele on the buildpage, or a B-Surge ele. This would allow you to bring Fallback on both the ST and ele to get 2 copies.


 * On a slightly related note, if you're not bringing ANY minions, is two putrid explosions too much? If there are already 2 dead bodies on the ground, a double PE burst can be pretty devastating, and can help trigger big explosions with putrid bile + icy veins. Double PE could exponentially quicken fights, especially in areas with lots of bodies (let the bodies hit the floor).


 * Another potential option is to run the same thing with Discord. I wouldn't take more than 1 icy veins. Also, the damage is not armor ignoring, which sucks. Double Discord is also an option. Willarddog (talk) 21:07, 29 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Also, ench. stripping will hurt ele's energy in some areas pretty bad, even with BiP. I think we should steer away from armor-respecting damage Willarddog (talk) 18:45, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Great, those are actual suggestions to consider. The big issue however, is that you drop Fall Back, which is more important than boosting the hero damage outputs by a few %. You could bring a Fall Back on the player bar / ST tho, so you can at least run on of those N/Me bars. I dont think double putrid explosion is an issue. ZStepmother (talk) 09:18, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
 * You could also run one Icy Veins with a B-surge ele if you wanted blind. I think N/Me should take up one mainbar, while leaving the last hero bar as a variant: B-Surge fallback as defensive, or Discord fallback as offensive.Willarddog (talk) 18:56, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Hero 6 & 7: Double Necro?
Here's an example of Icy Veins + Discord. Icy Veins is pretty spammable, and lays good groundwork for Discord. Take "Fall Back!" on the ST for double "Fall Back!"

Double Discord:

Suffering is for better hex spread. Double Discord can push down single targets really well. However, I think the Icy Veins + Discord combo is better for general play.Willarddog (talk) 18:56, 30 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Looking over it, Discord probably isnt the best option. Spiritual Pain is already on the team and pushes down individual targets well. Also, on spoiled team like this, I don't think dropping slots for prerequisites for a mediocre skill like Discord (compared to other damage options on the rest of the team) is worth. I think a better option is to go back to fake mesmer like Haquillo suggested, but use inept over esurge, with a mix of illusion/dom spells.Willarddog (talk) 21:19, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
 * To better expand on that^, take wandering eye on the rez mesmers over spiritual pain (drop insp. from 8+1 to 5+1, raise illusion to 7+1). Wandering eye @20FC will have 1s cast time and 5s recharge compared to 1/2s cast time and 3s recharge of spritual pain. This results in Casting Wandering eye less compared to spiritual pain, which will allow us to drop inspiration some to make up for the fact you're not spending as much energy.
 * This means you end up better fitting out your mesmers, while also keeping long-cast times off of the fake necro.
 * This fake inept mesmer could possibly be paired with a icy veins command, as shown below:

Fake Mesmer + Icy Veins Command

 * Attributes: SR 7+1+1, Death 9+2, Domination 10, Illusion 10
 * Energy should be fine without SoLS, as you have 15 soul reaping, 2 signets, and decent recharge times on Inept, CoF, and Shatter Hex. Can also take SoLS over Shatter hex, as I dont think you'll use it much when your 3 mesmers with 20 FC have it!


 * Attributes: 10+1+1 SR, 11+1 death, 3+1 curses, 9 command, 2 motivation
 * Weaken Armor helps out Icy Veins damage. You could take enfeebling blood, but you have blind anyways from ineptitude anyways. SoLS is not taken as I don't think you need it with max soul reaping.


 * Fall back is also taken on the ST.Willarddog (talk) 21:19, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Hero 6&7 after update
These seem to be the options. For the eles, I think an air build will be the best choice according to some testing ive done on air vs fire builds a few months ago, but maybe HR has a big impact. The necro builds seem to be a viable option too.
 * 20 Fire & Air, 14 ES, 9 Command, 9 Water/earth (Sup fire, maj air on head, minor ES, minor water/earth) with EA up
 * Has +15 armor with EA up, and an unconditional +10 without


 * 20 Air, 10 ES, 14 Command


 * 20 Death, 19 SR, 14 Command with Masochism up. Can definitely take bone fiends, depending on how impactful they are.


 * 19 Death, 17 SR, which leaves enough attribute points to put 12 in either dom or illusion

ZStepmother (talk) 10:49, 1 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Those air ele attributes are iffy. Should be 13 ES with a minor rune. -Willarddog (talk) 20:28, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Pick one

 * (10+3+1+4+2) 20 Death, (6+1+4+2) 13 Soul, (6+4) 10 Illusion, (12+4) 16 Domination


 * (12+3+1+4) 20 Air, (8+1+4) 13 ES, (10+4) 14 Command


 * (9+2+1+4+2) 18 Death, (9+2+4+2) 17 Soul, (12+4) 16 Domination


 * (12+3+1+4) 20 Air, (8+1+4) 13 ES, (10+4) 14 Command


 * (10+3+1+4+2) 20 Death, (8+1+4+2) 15 Soul, (12+4) 16 Domination


 * (12+3+1+4) 20 Air, (8+1+4) 13 ES, (10+4) 14 Command

IMO one fake mesmer necro + one command air ele is the best option. That way you get more mesmer shutdown + utility, putrid explosion, air ele utility + damage, and fallback + 1 optional (find their weakness, GoLE, etc). I made the Ineptitude necro the way I did because imo the illusion skills are not as good as the domination skills. I feel its a solid contender to the e-surge necro because it deals almost as good damage, has blind, and lower cast time. That combo i think has the highest damage. Middle bar is just a foil really, but its there to show what a necro elite looks like compared to an mesmer elite. AoE cracked armor compliments Icy Veins. Could replace it with a B-surge however.-Willarddog (talk) 20:28, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Also if you wanted discord on the necro, you could run that with 12 channeling, and take enfeebling blood, lamentation, and splinter weapon. This way you could take splinter off the ST and give it fallback + mending refrain.


 * (10+3+1+4+2) 20 Death, (8+1+4+2) 15 Soul, (2+1+4) 7 Curses, (12+4) 16 channeling Willarddog (talk) 20:15, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Have you done any testing so far with these builds? I didn't find the time yet after the update, but Im curious to see which builds come out as the strongest. ZStepmother (talk) 09:03, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * No... really just theorycraft. However, even at 20 fire... I seriously doubt that fire eles out damage any of those N/Me, or maybe even an air ele. 25% armor pen on air spells is too good. IMO even the icy veins out damages the fire eles. With all those above, I think it comes down to which is better? Inept + invoke, or Bsurge + fake esurge? I don't think Thunderclap is better than the other two, as its basically shell shock with weakness, which is outclassed by blind. Maybe you could even run invoke+chain lightning. I also think that the icy veins could out dps the esurge, as its just such as long cooldown on the necro compared to either invoke or icy veins, both with shorter cooldowns. IMO icy + putrid bile + putrid explosion can help to snowball fights super quick once one or two guys goes down. Also, would the discord even compare to the other necro bars? is Discord that good? It just feels like old meta to me. I'm not really in a position to test any of this, as I don't have a paragon XD Willarddog (talk) 00:20, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Hero 6/7: Dual Glimmering Mark
This may be worth a try. Mouseover attributes include masochism and heroic refrain (+4). According to the official wiki heroes use glimmering mark correctly. If not: Thunderclap on the elementalist hero, drop putrid bile on the minion master for an alternative such a shambling horrors. Two glimmering marks contribute (while active) 58 armour ignoring adjacent damage and can blind foes with attack skills. Up to 11 12 bone fiends provide a minor meat shield and fair damage contribution. The elementalist does a little bit of damage aswell and buffs the minion damage with cracked armour. Happy testing. --Krschkr (talk) 14:54, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I had not considered Glimmering Mark before. That's an interesting option for the necro for sure. However, does he end up lagging behind due to minions too much? That's the only concern. Have we decided definitively no minions? Willarddog (talk) 15:19, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm not against using minions, but for this team I'm not really sure if they make a good addition to the team. Fights are over significantly faster than with regular teams, due to those insane mesmers (and the other 2 heroes also benefitting from +4). Even with regular teams, Bone Fiends are slower to engage in combat. Usually, they make up for this with their good damage output. But fights are already much faster in the first place, so they don't have much opportunity to deal damage. They should definitely be tested (comparing them against alternative damage bars), but that's not a priority for me at the moment ZStepmother (talk) 16:11, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Glimmering Mark is promising, but I'm not testing anything involving heroic refrain myself and I might be a bit biased in favour of glimmering mark as I like it in PvP. If you wish so I can look into other gap filler solutions that might have some merit. That would provide you with more general build ideas to test, possibly contributing to finding the solution that'll emerge as the most recommendable one. --Krschkr (talk) 17:38, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Did you notice a higher than usual Overcast buildup on the ele? I have been testing Invoke vs Thunderclap with this team, and it seems like the Thunderclap ele builds stacks up Overcast much more. It looks like the 2 sec cast time of Chain Lightning often doesn't get finished (due to the high output of the team), so the skill doesn't go on cooldown (and the hero likes to use Chain a lot). Perhaps it's just sample bias tho, because I only did a few test runs. I'll definitely check out Glimmering Mark aswel. ZStepmother (talk) 18:03, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Hero 6/7: RoJ
If playing dagger paragon. Switch brutal weapon for binding chains on the ST. 5x hex removal is overkill though. --Krschkr (talk) 18:55, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The problem with RoJ is that the rest of the bar is pretty useless. Maybe for this team it's not that bad since the fights are over. Don't think we can fill it with enough useful skills to use it on the spear variant tho, so this will probably not get tested soon ZStepmother (talk) 22:13, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Hero 6/7: FoCkers
All curses skills featured in these builds that deal damage/degeneration do not fail if the target dies while casting. That may make these builds somewhat useful. 2x hex in the area is good for FoC and unnatural signet. Extra deep wounds are fun. Weakness + DAS help in a triple domination magic setup. Maybe play one stolen speed mesmer. Features burning for TaoF. --Krschkr (talk) 18:55, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't think these builds fit into the team at all. At least FoC goes through when the target is already dead, but those 2 second cast times hurt a lot, and the cooldowns are too big. Stuff simply dies too quickly. I guess I'll have to at least try one of those bars to be sure, hopefully I can find the 40/40 curses I have somewhere. I don't think these will perform better than the N/Me bars. ZStepmother (talk) 22:05, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Hero 6/7: Gust + Melee
Benefit of doubt, please. Gust is used alright, melees with a shadow step might be useful. Bring only the preferred melee hero option. Features burning for TaoF. --Krschkr (talk) 18:55, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I think Gust is a valid option when playing melee yourself, probably something to consider when making the dagger variant.. I don't think it justifies bringing a melee range hero tho. I'm not sure how good heroes are with the Star Burst bar. Melee AI is already bad, and with the amount of damage in the team he'll spend even more time trying to reach his target. I think you'll notice that issue a lot with the derv bar. At least derv equipment is cheap enough to try it out once, but I don't have high hopes. ZStepmother (talk) 22:07, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Slippery Ground
If you're bringing BSurge (so lots of enemies are blind) and there's room for a filler ele skill, why not add Slippery Ground? Houroftheowl (talk) 14:52, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Status post-nerf
I suppose the thing still works. Have the builds settled on the current page version so we can move this from trial to testing and remove the build-update note? --Krschkr (talk) 20:27, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Not really. I think the general consensus here is that the hybrid air/fire builds posted are not ideal, but serve as placeholders. I've theory crafted a bit up above, but I'm unable to test anything myself. Willarddog (talk) 23:28, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I didn't really find the time to test the builds for hero 6 & 7 yet. The build is obviously still very strong, but we just need to figure out the best option for those 2 heroes. I can already replace them with 2 Air ele builds (because I know they work and previous testing points in the direction of air > fire), and put it into trial, but its possible that either of those bars will get swapped for a better one. ZStepmother (talk) 08:18, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Also because double attune on a team with very little enchantments turns into no attune very, very fast. Willarddog (talk) 16:35, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

I think this fits best here. I've done some testing, and I definitely think we can throw away the EA fire guys. It seems to be always equal or behind the Air Ele (for example: equal in gloom cave cause the mobs are quite stacked up). I've also tried out some N/Me bars. N/Me with IV (OAVDIap2S1MfBKgXAmO5ADBbhA) was not really good, heroes are just terrible with using IV: they only seem to cast it on foes that are low on HP, instead of spreading IV. The N/Me with ESurge (OAVDIcpGSnAfBKgXAmO5ADBbhA) looked promising, and seemed to be more competitive than the EA Fire bar (when compared to Air ele). However, it also seems to suffer when the groups arent as stacked up, but I'll still consider it for further testing. For now, I'll edit in Air eles on the main page, and then we can see later if the N/Me bars are superior. ZStepmother (talk) 12:57, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Wow, sucks with Icy Veins. What's funny is that the skill is on a few vetted builds here, such as N/Rt healers. Doesn't matter too much, as if it's not BiP it's not meta. I didn't think it would be the best option anyways because cold damage.
 * I agree with posting Air ele's for now. For the second one, what You're essentially comparing is Elite Chain Lightning vs Elite Shell Shock. Take your base bar:


 * You simply replace CL with Invoke or Shell Shock with Thunderclap. The really only big difference between the two is that Invoke brings QoL, while Thunderclap brings weakness and a slight damage increase over shell shock. However, seeing as you already have a BSurge, I think the weakness from Thunderclap is moot. It also costs more energy than Shell Shock.
 * After a comparison, Invoke really comes out on top. I'm going to go ahead an remove Thunderclap as an optional. Feel free to reverse it. Willarddog (talk) 16:00, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Thunderclap is more than an "improved Shell Shock". It deals about half the listed damage of Invoke, but it doesn't have a target cap. On top of that, it rupts everything it hits. Taking Thunderclap also allows you to replace Shell Shock with Arc Lightning for example, which is a stronger AoE skill. I'll test it myself when I have time. ZStepmother (talk) 16:17, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * My bad, I totally skipped over the interrupt part. That is a big pro. I also didn't think about Invoke 3 targets vs Thunderclap no cap. When you put it that way, now I'm convinced otherwise. Willarddog (talk) 16:41, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Thunderclap seems to be competitive in damage, but it might have issues with Overcast buildup, due to often not being able to finish Chain Lightning casts. Needs more testing however. ZStepmother (talk) 18:06, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I put Thunderclap on mainbar for now. I did some testing with constant fighting (Gloom and Foundry HM), CoF HM, and clearing up to Borguus Blisterbark HM. While the extra Overcast buildup is noticable, I haven't really had any problems with it. The damage output is similar enough to Invoke to warrant the change (sometimes a bit more, sometimes a bit less). The extra rupt is nice, and the added weaknees is a nice bonus I guess. ZStepmother (talk) 11:14, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

E/P vs N/Me
It's been said that Life isn't ideal. Why not put in strip Enchantment? This allows you to drop Drain Enchantment on the 1st E-Surge without losing ench. removal. This allows you to run "Fallback!" on said mesmer, by going 10+3 FC, 6+1 Insp, 6 command. Add FB! on the ST, and bam you got your FB! covered. Could also drop SPain for fallback alternatively.

This allows you to run two N/Me heros in slots 6&7 without having to worry about fallback. Even further, move the rez from 1 e-surge over to the ST, so that it can hit the 19 Spawning Power breakpoint. Then, run fallback on 2 esurges. Or, simply run 3 Command on the ST for the 7 second fallback, for a total of 15 seconds instead of 16. Personally, I would rather do this than have a rez on the ST. Rez on mesmer is much better because of FC. Willarddog (talk) 18:58, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Fall Back hasn't been an issue, you could just drop spain/fomf for it. The question is whether the N/Me heroes are any good. I'm not sure if anyone has done much comparison between two N/Me versus two Air eles versus something else to really hammer down clear time/damage/stability differences. --Xanshiz (talk) 21:13, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

The real upside of eles is that they can take fallback, that's pretty much it in my opinion. It does make the bars "neater".

Making fallback work on the mesmers/ST is incredibly advantageous, as I believe that N/Me brings much more to the table than elementalists ever could.

I don't think that there can even be a comparison when you compare the two on paper. Nearby AoE armor ignoring vs limited AoE armor respecting.

N/Me Brings TONS of spammable AoE armor ignoring damage, interrupts, hex removal, as well as having 0 energy problems, as well as being invulnerable to enchantment removal / condition removal on enemies (cracked armor).
 * One option:

(10+3+1+4+2) 20 Death, (6+1+4+2) 13 Soul, (6+4) 10 Illusion, (12+4) 16 Domination

(10+3+1+4+2) 20 Death, (8+1+4+2) 15 Soul, (12+4) 16 Domination
 * This keeps some blind on the team. I think that N/Me Inept would work better than a Bsurge in terms of damage. Upside to Bsurge is Fallback and more reliable blind, however, I don't think even more blind is needed with beefy displacement on ST. Just a bit helps.
 * You don't need SoLS with high enough Soul Reaping combined with longer recharges on mesmer spells. Spells with 2s casting times are avoided if at all possible.
 * Credit to Haquillo way way above (I kinda told him this was bad earlier, and now I'm endorsing it).
 * Second Option:


 * Another option is to run SPain on the necros and run empathy on mesmers instead. This keeps a semblance of melee shutdown with stronger damage, without having to include an Ineptitude.
 * Most offensive option.
 * Third Option:


 * You could also run inept bar on a mesmer, and run 2x Me/Rt esurge and 2x N/Me esurge. You lose a primary mesmer e-surge, but you also gain the benefits of mesmer primary illusion bar.
 * This would give even better bar compression, stronger anti-melee, as well as give mending refrain.
 * More defensive team comp than either two options above.

All three options discussed above are fleshed out below:

We can also add the dagger variant build to this page, simply drop one of the necros for the rit. Willarddog (talk) 22:34, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Notice: I changed the layout of above talk contribution. It had five headlines which made it hard (and upon further discussions likely impossible) to attribute their content to their author. I hope you don't mind the changes, as I've avoided to change your contribution's content in any way. --Krschkr (talk) 14:37, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * You're a wizard, Harry.
 * Much appreciated! I had no idea I could do that. Willarddog (talk) 15:03, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Another thing to remember with double necro: Putrid Explosion deals a whopping 152 armor-ignoring nearby range damage. Two of these with a short cooldown I think could seriously end fights right after they start. I can't test it personally, but I feel like it would operate somewhat like EoE. As soon as one or two enemies die, Putrid Explosion can kill off significantly more. Willarddog (talk) 15:11, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep in mind that the AI always uses putrid explosion on allies, not foes. In caster teams they quite often detonate corpses far outside of range of foes. It's a nice skill, but much more reliable with a frontline character in the team. Maybe you should sneak in a star burst hero. --Krschkr (talk) 18:03, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Can explain that in more depth? Putrid explosion targets allies? I'm confused. I thought it targets corpses. Everything I've ever read of Putrid Explosion is that Heros are fantastic with it. -- Willarddog (talk) 22:06, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * It explodes the corpse nearest to your target, so if they target an ally, it's quite likely that the exploding corpse is going to be close to your team (melee foes). I actually didn't know this, is there any proof for your statement? I kinda did notice strange putrid usage while testing the N/Me heroes ZStepmother (talk) 22:16, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Deduction from which corpses explode when either heroes or the AI use the skill. You can observe wrong usage easily when playing against devourers or when playing pure caster teams against mostly ranged foes. Heroes still use the skill in passive mode. Using shame and guilt on putrid explosion necromancers in SoO/Ruins of Surmia shows that guilt never triggers, shame always. --Krschkr (talk) 23:03, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Fascinating. That kinda makes sense, logically. Hero AI targets allies with the spell, so it explodes on corpses near you. I guess you never would have noticed what's wrong in the past, as you would either have the player be melee (dagger spam meta), or the "Incoming!" MM would use it on Bone fiends, which are in nearby range of enemy casters most of the time anyways.

however, does this change the viability of the skill? As in, is it still good? That's kinda what this whole N/Me idea rests upon. I wonder if double Putrid explosion is not worth it. It may by that a single one could be worth it. In that case, you could experiment with running something like:
 * Also @Krschkr, if you wanted a melee range hero for better Putrid Explosion application, you could use a hero with Death's charge + ShockWave to include that Blind, like A/E daggerspam. Alternatively, use the Inept N/Me for Blind, and do something similar to Star Burst. You have SY! + Beefy ST, so its not like anything on your team is squishy lol-- Willarddog (talk) 23:15, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * What's the problem with putrid always getting used on an ally? The closest corpse to an ally is (in most cases) a melee enemy. Melee enemies run around often, so it's less likely that they are all balled next to the corpse. It would be much more ideal if the hero targetted enemies with this: casters are usually more balled, and 1 corpse in a caster group could easily lead to a snowball (Putrid explosion kills, another corpse becomes available, ...). That's why it's more valuable with a melee character, cause they are usually close to the enemy casters. ZStepmother (talk) 07:42, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The idea of double Putrid Explosion leading to a snowball was what I was thinking when I suggested going 2x N/Me. However, as a Dervish main who's only ever side-mained other melee classes (war, sin), I've only ever experienced it snowballing as you say, albiet with only 1 copy on my team. This discussion does want me to try double PE for fun, and see if it snowballs even better. One upside to PE hitting melee more often in an all-ranged teamcomp is that melees are usually the last ones left to pick off in a fight, and teamcomps like this are built around nuking the enemy casters first, while blindbotting the melee's to be dealt with later. Double N/Me could potentially prove effective at helping to clean up.
 * Also, any comments on the team comps I've put together above? I think that the Offensive one has some great potential; spiritual pain on the necros (they can manage the energy better) while double empathy can really melt melees. Keeps quintuple e-surge to melt everything. with 2x PE and 2x Empathy, I really don't see why you'll need blind, if everything just dies. However, if you're going no-cons DoA, team #3 might prove more consistent.Willarddog (talk) 06:23, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Well yes. I don't know why you keep on coming up with teampcomps that include those N/Me bar when you don't even know if it's preferable to run them over Air eles. I've done a few tests comparing a N/Me ESurge which showed me that I shouldn't discard them immediately, but further testing needs to be done to show if they are actually better. Also, Empathy is terrible for this team ZStepmother (talk) 09:02, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Something else to consider is for the daggerspam variant, Putrid Explosion would most likely perform much better:

I simply took the build from the merc page, but I had to add 2x N/Me because of the incoming Rit. Might have to change up the team builds to run a third mesmer, unless for some reason this actually works betterWillarddog (talk) 06:43, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The point of this page is that you can't use mercs, and Zei Ri is counted as a merc hero because he's lockd behind WoC HM. Again, I'd first like to see tests proving that the N/Me bars are preferable over Air Eles. ZStepmother (talk) 09:02, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 * That bar only has two mesmers so it'd fit within the guidelines. However, given how strong mesmers scale with Heroic Refrain, I doubt it would be worth dropping a Mesmer for a Rit primary dagger setup. Let's focus on the spear variant for now. --Xanshiz (talk) 00:46, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Some tests
I ran some test on hero bars running Tahnnakai Temple HM Air Eles do indeed outperform fire ones, but the burning goes well together with the constant "They're on Fire!". Neither provide any condition removal, which team team lacks.

Laser beams are nice and all, but others skills do next to no damage, team becomes far harder to kill.

I also tried fake mesmer necros with Dom/Illusion (had the fastest clear time)

and changed one mesmer to: (It still did a lot more damage than the necros but had energy problems)

Then I did it with 2 meme bars, and then with just the 6 heroes and decided it's far too easy to serve as a useful test. I took the eles to City of Torc'qua HM and got my ass handed to me. Switchs back to normal mode and wiped inside the walls, switched to RoJ and completed the quest (which is nice I guess), got bored came to write this. Master Elros (talk) 10:02, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 * RoJ tends to be pretty bad because it causes scatter and has a long CD. You can also add recovery to the BiP if you want condition removal. --Xanshiz (talk) 00:31, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * As per those necro bars, I hand't thought of using both powerspike and spiritual pain. It looks effective. However, Foul Feat is completely unnecessary. Conditions don't do crap, and arent dangerous. MBaS is all the condition removal you need, and if it isnt, then recovery like Xanshiz said. Also, did you find SoLS necessary? I was wondering if high enough soul reaping was enough. Lastly, pumping up points into illusion for 35 more damage every 15 seconds for one spell isn't worth going all in into death magic, which is why I suggested Masochism before to bump up both death and soul reaping. With no minions, Putrid Explosion and Putrid Bile definitely help snowball fights better. However, they might need SoLS. Willarddog (talk) 03:39, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Optionals: Spiritual Pain, CoF, Shatter Hex, SoLS, Hex-Eater Signet
 * If you're gonna go N/Me might as well go with spells you can spam, instead of long cooldown ones. Signet synergizes with overload. Overload also has faster cast time and deals AoE damage, as opposed to spiritual pain. Willarddog (talk) 03:30, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Good point, not that the fights last long enough to spam spells most of the time. Will give it a try. It feels bad not to take advantage of the "Their are on Fire!"@20 so I ran fake ele necros instead:
 * If you're gonna go N/Me might as well go with spells you can spam, instead of long cooldown ones. Signet synergizes with overload. Overload also has faster cast time and deals AoE damage, as opposed to spiritual pain. Willarddog (talk) 03:30, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Good point, not that the fights last long enough to spam spells most of the time. Will give it a try. It feels bad not to take advantage of the "Their are on Fire!"@20 so I ran fake ele necros instead:


 * It did a lot more damage than I expected and damage reductions is very nice (more ~2/3 with "There's Nothing to Fear!" up.
 * As much as I hate that bone fiend MM-bar thrown around in here it rocks with Heroic. lvl 22 bone fiends are quite tanky and deal a ton of damage, also had a Flesh Golem for memes (it be kinda big).


 * My takeway seems to be you can run basicly anything you like for general content since nothing is going to beat Domination mesmers with 500 points worth of attributes. Only one healer is a bit flaky in harder areas, but it's quite hard to make a general bar for all of those --Master Elros (talk) 06:08, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The dom mesmers are definitely super strong, but that doesn't mean the rest of the team can't be optimal. The single healer makes it a bit more dangerous indeed, with intelligent play it really isn't a problem. I should have more time to test stuff myself starting from tomorrow. ZStepmother (talk) 08:39, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Elros, single healer is why we've been trying to include blind in the last two hero slots, whether if it's B-Surge or N/Me Ineptitude. Bringing an additional hybrid healing bar certainly makes the team nigh unkillable, but it also doesn't bring much damage. B-Surge and Ineptitude bars bring blind, utility, and additional damage. You could always bring a N/Rt over a non-mesmer damage dealer for more reliable survival, but you have a very small pool of elites to choose from (Icy Veins? bad. Discord? confused hero), with the only real viable choice being Xinrae's weapon:




 * }
 * }
 * }
 * }
 * However, N/E is an interesting option that brings AoE burning spam which reduces damage from all damage sources via "TOF!", alongside some damage. In this scenario I view SF as less of a AoE damage skill, but more as defensive support. It is almost like a mid-point between Panic and B-Surge regarding shutdown; not as strong, but affects more enemies and is less dependent on the hero not screwing it up (bad panic cast, or b-surge cast w/out overcast). It was never really considered before when we were looking at ele builds because SF ele = not good. However, Necro can bring other AoE armor-ignoring damage besides Fire Magic, and soul reaping + SoLS helps energy significantly while making it less vulnerable in the case of attunement stripping.


 * Another alternative to Meteor is Incendiary Bonds: it has synergy with Putrid Bile (both deal damage when target inevitably dies to mesmer), and brings additional AoE burning. While it deals more DPM than meteor, it is more spammable and could rack up overcast more quickly; however this is probably minor. Meteor brings the AoE knockdown which is nice, but at the cost of 2s cast time, long recharge, adjacent range, and the fact that it misses from time to time because of the 1-second delay. You also can't deal damage with CoF and Mistrust when enemies are knocked down. I wouldn't recommend bringing both, however, due to the overcast will quickly build up at the beginning of fights. Another option could be Liquid Flame: Mid-point recharge, nearby range, no drawbacks, but no synergy or utility.




 * }
 * }
 * }
 * }
 * One important thing to note about Searing Flames is that if the target dies, the spell will not fail, but will go through and affect nearby enemies. This is incredibly advantageous compared to Chain Lightning on B-Surge + Thunderclap, which suffers from this issue and results in failed spellcasts leading to additional overcast buildup and lost damage. I see this build as a offense/defense hybrid, as SF will understandably deal lackluster damage compared to N/Me, but the 45% less damage from "They're on Fire!" cannot be counted out, especially with only one healer. "TOF!" synergy also helps to save Shelter charges on this single-healer team.


 * Another thing I've been saying throughout this discussion is that I don't think the end result will be 2x ele or 2x Necro, etc, but that we should mix in whats most efficient. For example, B-Surge + N/Me. Perhaps we should think about keeping the most "optimal" bars in the build summary at top, while providing variant options below? Things to fill in and mix up depending on scenario such as B-Surge, Thunderclap, Inept Necro, E-Surge Necro, Searing Flames Necro, Incoming MM, Discord (is that even still in the running?). We can split them between Offensive (Thunderclap, E-Surge Necro, Incoming MM), and Defensive (B-Surge, Inept Necro, SF Necro).


 * On a last note, I wonder if Inept N/Me provides sufficient enough melee shutdown to warrant dropping B-Surge, as it deals much better damage at the cost of more reliable blind. I hope more testing of necros pays off. Willarddog (talk) 15:38, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
 * This team is single healer because the ST and the BiP have +4 to their attributes, and because the paragon has SY and TNtF. The point of Hero 6&7 is not extra defense, it's to find the bars that deal the most damage. That's why BSurge is so nice, it's not a big damage loss to take it over Invoke, and it provides blind. I'm not going to consider any bar with SF on it, because the damage it deals is so much less than other options. You don't care about the extra damage reduction, because you already have enough defense.
 * The only reason this team wouldnt have either 2 eles or 2 necros, is because with 2 necros it might be difficult to bring 2 fall backs and enough res skills. What's the most efficient? The resulting bars will be the bars that deal the most damage/give the faster clears. Lets first see and do some testing to compare the ele and necro bars, before comming to conclussions. So far, I'm impressed by the fact that the N/Me bars can at least keep up with the air eles (in some situations), but currently I'm leaning towards the eles. ZStepmother (talk) 13:06, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I was simply giving him a bar for if he wanted to run another healer, but it is unnecessary. What do you think of overload on N/Me? Willarddog (talk) 19:41, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
 * So I've done some more testing and I think it's safe to say we can trash the N/Me bars. At best, they have a +- equal damage output as the air eles. At worst, they don't come close (almost up to 50% lower damage output). It's absolutely useless when mobs are spread out. I know that damage isn't everything, and it's more difficult to measure how useful the rupts are. But for this team, I'd say damage is one of the most important things. I'm not going to test the N/Me bars anymore, unless someone shows me different results. ZStepmother (talk) 10:28, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, we really did exhaustively theorycraft as much as possible with the N/Me. I think it might've been more viable with the +6 HR, but you sound right regarding enemies being spread out. N/Me damage relies on nearby damage, while chain lightning can jump around better; which works regardless if foes are balled up or not. However, I think that with a dagger spam variant, Putrid Explosion might prove more effective, as being a frontliner helps to ball foes a bit+provides a target to cast putrid explosion on. Sucks to learn it's less effective without frontliners or minions.
 * Another upside to the eles is that the damage is not conditional (doesn't need something to die [putrid bile], exploit a corpse [putrid explosion], interrupt a skill [CoF/overload], target needs a hex [unnatural sig], remove a hex from an ally [shatter hex]. The fact of the matter is that the mesmers already have a monopoly in these areas, are quicker to react, and can do it 1000x better. Fast Casting really is overpowered. Your also right that heros 6/7 should focus on damage, as there is enough shutdown anyways on these super-saiyan mesmers.
 * One of the glaring downsides to N/Me was it made configuring fallback awkward. You would have to place it on the ST or a mesmer, which isn't optimal. honestly I think that remove hex should be mainbarred on the ST. I think it's important enough after more discussion has brought up that Shatter Hex is not prioritized 100% of the time, unless it will damage a foe. Another alternative is cure hex; at 7 healing prayers it heals a nice chunk (72). Willarddog (talk) 22:43, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I would still go for Remove Hex I think, simply because it has a lower cooldown. ZStepmother (talk) 08:53, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Soul Twisting Alternative?
While looking at the +4 to Attributes from Heroic Refrain combine with a 12+1+3 (16) Spawning would put us at 20 for Spawning Ritual Lord at 20 gives +5 to Ritualist attributes and 77% reduction in recharge. Giving us the following Displacement, Union, Shelter ~10 sec recharge. +9 to all ritualist stats (5 from Ritual Lord and 4 from Heroric Refrain). This would potentially Allow us to redistribute stats to a 12+1+3+(9)=25 (overkill but necessary) Spawning either 10+1+(9)=20 or 9+1/2+(9)=19/20 Commune leaving either 8+1+(9)=18 or 9+1/2+(9)=19/20 for another ritualist stat. This would be reliant upon the BiP necro for energy regen but we could bring other spirits offensive or defensive. Anyways just a thought. Please note, I haven't done any testing on this just idea crafting at this point &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Soven26 (talk &bull; contribs) 04:16, 23 May 2020‎ (UTC).
 * Losing ST means the rit now has to spend a lot of energy to be able to cast spirits. He would be heavily reliant on BiP, which is pretty bad in a dangerous situation. AI also has some issues with using it, and rit lord doesnt boost the health gain through spawning power, it won't count the extra SP ranks. I also don't know what other skills you would bring to use the extra attribute points. Tl;dr: don't use Rit lord ZStepmother (talk) 08:32, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Alright, was just a thought thank you- Soven P.S. New to the wiki stuff &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Soven26 (talk &bull; contribs) 14:38, 23 May 2020‎ (UTC).

BiP optional
Does the second spirit (mainly life) cause the bip to fall behind too much? What do I bring if I don't want another spirit (lag) or a res? Is there anything else good besides those listed?

Optional Ideas:
 * [[Strip Enchantment@13] If you need more enchantment removal (Dolyak Riders!)
 * [[Enfeebling Blood@6] Weakness? I don't that it't be particularly useful, but I guess it adds some defense.
 * [[Foul Feast] For condition heavy areas. Hero spams it, helps with HP/Energy, and casts quickly. One important benefit is that it is not conditional to the caster being in the areas of a spirit. your BiP should always be in the areas of a spirit, but you know hero AI: Heros love to run marathons away from melee mobs. They also often fail to re-cast spirits if the next fight is just a hop and a skip from the previous ones, especially in crowded areas like foundry. This is especially useful if your BiP is bringing Recup over life; normally your BiP recasts life on recharge so there's always a nearby spirit, which makes this a non-issue.
 * Willarddog (talk) 06:11, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
 * From what Ive seen, I already have the BiP falling behind after mosts fights (wants to heal everyone to full). Adding Life certainly won't help. Maybe I'm the only one with this "issue".
 * I play with the same mesmer setup and I have no issues with Dolyak Riders. I don't think it's really necessary, but it could be an option.
 * Weakness loses a lot of value when you already have a blind, and we already have weakness thanks to Thunderclap. We've tested this before (on the bip melee/caster teams), it gave less stable performance, and that's with a double healer team.
 * I don't think having all conditions on your only healer is a good idea.
 * I didn't really pay attention to this, but I don't think I had any issues with Recup dieing.
 * I guess if you really don't want to run any of the listed optionals, you could run Strip Ench. It might be a bit dangerous however, because he might prioritize removing enches instead of healing, which is annoying if he's the only healer. ZStepmother (talk) 09:13, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I mainbarred [[Remove Hex], while keeping fomf as a variant. It's obvious it makes for a better team, no point in keeping the slot open.
 * Forgot about thunderclap weakness. You also bring a good point with foul feast. You're probably better off bringing recovery and microing it before fights.
 * With Strip Enchantment, I could very well see a hero running forward to strip something. This turns a 1.00+0.75 cast time into 2-4 seconds of running around. I think it's only worth staying as a variant.
 * As per AoU, I think it works as a skill because it doesn't have any downsides, and brings marginal utility without slowing down the BiP hero. I don't think recup will die in most situations, but AoU pretty much guarantees that it won't. Willarddog (talk) 20:10, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I simply added AoU as a option. I don't think it could hurt. I also added a note stating that additional spirits can cause the BiP to fall behind and drop Heroic Refrain. I also thought more about strip enchantment, and I think it's better off not on the page for the reasons discussed above. For some reason if someone feels the need for more, they'll simply add it themselves most likely.
 * For Life and Recovery, should we add a note suggesting to disable and micro? If you're in an area where you would bring Recovery, I would think you would want to most definitely micro it. Stating to disable and micro Life obviously solves the "falling behind" problem.
 * Lastly, is death pact good on BiP? I've never seen it on one before. Would you want to disable and micro that aswell? If you leave it open, it'll most likely get cancelled anyways due to mesmer fast cast rezzing. That's wasted time on the BiP. Willarddog (talk) 20:23, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm usually not a fan of Death Pact, but I think it works for this team. Mesmers don't ress instantly, so the Bip definitely has opportunities to cast it. There is enough defense on the team (Shelter, paragon shouts) to ensure the ressed target doesnt get instagibbed. It's a viable option for people that prefer to have more res skills. ZStepmother (talk) 16:50, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

BiP Paragon
After some testing, I noticed that at times the BiP lingers at low health attracting attention before healing up. Not sure if error on my part but at times I have wiped, (over agroed a few times). However I decided to swap to a staff wielding Paragon/Necro

With a 12 (+1+3) Leadership, 10 Blood, 8 (+1) Command  (Could be 12 +4 Leadership, 9 Blood, 9 +2 Command if you want for 20% on Bladeturn and perm Stand your Ground, same pip amount for BiP)
 * The difference?
 * Positives +
 * 1. A primary less targeted
 * 2. Frees you up your bar a bit
 * 3. Frees up BiP to become a N/Rit Healer only
 * 4. "Free" Shouts/chants
 * Negatives -
 * 1. +6 Energy pip vs +7
 * 2. 1 Optional slot for heroes is taken by support

Having 10 energy from 20 Leadership for shouts and chants does help. This could make the staff on this hero useless, Still in fine-tuning stage though.
 * Saying that I would also say BiP, AoF and FB are required while the rest can be swapped. I have attempted to use Hasty Refrain but have ran into some maintain issues if you don't have ToF and spread out the recharge, half way on cool-down of AoF. That being said you could find somewhere to put 4 motivation and bring Mending Refrain on another Hero. Soven26 (talk) 14:30, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I personally don't see the point in doing this. The team has enough defense with the buffed up ST+BiP+clever usage of the player shouts. I've seen this team last quite a long time when I overaggroed a lot in Foundry (Doa). Eventually it crumbled (was fighting 3 packs at once in room 3, without any flagging), but through good usage of SY and TNtF, it can handle a lot. ZStepmother (talk) 16:20, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Must have been user error, against the wind rider army shutting down my group. Will return to original team in a bit after some more testing. Soven26 (talk) 16:41, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The wind riders outside of Rata Sum are quite dangerous (when you fight multiple groups at once). Even for other teams they are still threatening, if you don't precast Shelter / just run into them (cause heroes are balled up when following you, making them juicy targets for a group of mesmers). They also have degen pressure, but you have Recup to help with that. Seeing how well the team did in doa, it would surprise me that it crumbles to the wind riders if you play it safe. ZStepmother (talk) 16:46, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
 * With groups like windriders, on top of flagging/precasting, I think its important for you to get agro first instead of walking in with heros. This way windriders can blow a few cooldowns on you, while also enabling your mesmers to do a large shatter hex spike on em. If you're expecting lots of those specifically, I would take [[Resilient Weapon@16] in the optional slot on your BiP and micro it on yourself, to help counter the heavy up front degen. [[Crippling Anguish@20] and [[Conjure Phantasm@20] give a combined -15 degen, which is almost cancelled out with Recup, Mending Refrain, and Resilient Weapon. The point is that it helps your BiP to not freak out, trying to spam heals on all the degen + BiPing the mesmers/eles being interrupted and losing energy quickly, and ST Shelter flying through procs because armor is useless.
 * Another more universal, probably more simple solution is to bring life as an optional and micro it. Wind Rider CoF will wipe it out quickly, giving your party a sizable party heal with PwK. Willarddog (talk) 19:38, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

19/19/10 ST?
Lastly, someone on Discord (Kelvin) suggested changing ST attributes to 19/19/10 in order to put Mending Refrain on the ST and keep it off the Thunderclap. This allows you to keep Arc Lightning + better E-storage, at the cost going from 33 shelter charges down to 29, and foregoing remove hex. Changing +4 party-wide regen to +7 would be pretty nice though. You would probably want to mainbar Mending Refrain, just like the merc build, and keep Remove Hex as a variant for hex-heavy areas, especially for mobs like Wind Riders as talked about above.

Also, is there any point to having fallback last more than 8/9 seconds? Hero's normally take 1-2 seconds to cast it anyways after it drops, so 10 second duration is a waste. Better energy storage equals less pressure on BiP. I would say to bring it down to 8s, but the only difference between 8s and 9s is a major ES rune. That specifically boils down to +1s on FB!, or +35 maxHP. -- Willarddog (talk) 19:38, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
 * No point, you can put mending refrain on the E/P to accomplish the same thing without losing ST charges (drop aura of restoration if you want arc lightning). I suspect this change will be made at some point. Also, while a 10s fall back won't mean permanent uptime for reasons you point out, extra points in energy storage have very, very little value. I'd rather have longer shouts. --Xanshiz (talk) 01:43, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Testing
The current version can go back to testing. Some alternatives to hero 6&7 should still be tested, but I pretty sure the current team will be the final one. ZStepmother (talk) 08:57, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
 * What alternatives do you have in mind? Willarddog (talk) 15:07, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Invoke Ele's
Thunderclap+Bsurge has more utility, but I think that this comp has better damage. Invoke's shorter cast time means the hero can spam more spells during a fight. If you take the mean recharge of spells 1-4 (6.75 seconds) and compare to the total cast time for skills 1-4 (7 seconds), you can see that there is practically zero downtime in spell spamming, and these are really the only skills on the bar you want the hero spamming. Alongside chain lightning, Arc Lightning has too long a cast time and it's increased damage is situational, and is actually worse on single targets over anything else. The real increase in dps on this bar comes in the change from chain lightning->invoke lightning. Chain lightning can get cancelled (target dies before spell finishes, meaning the hero dealt zero damage), and because it gets cancelled it gets cast again, causing more overcast buildup. The shorter cast time of invoke not only helps to solve this, but also allows the ele to then cast other spells. Sure, you have less blind, but I doubt it's super important with the inherent defense this comp already has. You could always just switch to the current mainbars if you want more defense in DoA HM for example. I think that these could be viable variant bars.Willarddog (talk) 15:59, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Arc Lightning
After personal tests and watching other video tests, I have viewed that hero use Arc Lightning horrendously. They don't care if they have overcast or not when casting it, and they'll use it at the worst of times. Against single targets, they'll use it over Lightning Strike sometimes, and vs multiple mobs they'll cast it instead of chain lightning even though it's off cooldown. Because of these points, there should never be a reason to bring Arc Lightning, as it will only LOWER your damage.

You should always run Aura of Resto, because it pretty much guarantee's that the Elementalist hero will never run below 1/2 energy. It does this both through the skill directly, and also by acting as a cover enchantment for Attunement so that it doesn't get striped. This is important because any BiP casted on the Ele is a huge waste; it also results in a wasted heal self-cast on the BiP. All in all it wastes 2-3 seconds of the BiP's time, and less uptime for BiP on hero's which genuinely need it (mesmers + ST), or heal's where they're needed. I'm removing it as a variant. Willarddog (talk) 16:26, 14 July 2020 (UTC)


 * I'd like to see actual numbers before you make changes like this. Take 1 of each variant (+ the other 5 heroes on this team), and load up TB so you can see their damage output. Record it, so you can count the amount of bips each of the eles get. Do a few areas, and see the results. If they show that Arc Lightning indeed performs worse, then you can remove it. Reverting the edit. ZStepmother (talk) 17:25, 14 July 2020 (UTC)