User:Malokai92/Wiki Drama/Keystone Signet Nuker

Soo strong --Smity the Smith 02:37, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Just an FYI: Keystone, Wastrel's, and Unnatural all do AoE now, and Chaos does double damage. --Smity the Smith 02:39, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Or you can just use roj, not worth using since you cant do anything but cap-- Relyk  talk  02:45, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Roj is very nice but it is not wonderful at taking down quarries, not to mention this has huge shut down abilities and defends like a spartan --Smity the Smith 02:46, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Not to mention this has less down time than RoJ --Smity the Smith 02:48, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * All it does is cap shrines, which takes longer than roj or a bomber. Signet of distraction is your only shutdown. If defending a shrine is defined as carrying a couple interrupts, you're screwed. It actually has more down time than roj.-- Relyk  talk  06:38, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * The time it takes to nuke is very small, and key stone signet has a 15 second recharge meaning 5 second less down time than RoJ, and no, you do not need chaos storm for every nuke. Signet of distraction is not your only shut down, you have 3 interrupt skills, e-drain, and a 14 second nearby radius aoe weakness.  RoJ is hard pressed to nuke a quarry by itself, plus it's two second cast time makes it a prime target for interruption.  This on the other hand is near impossible to interrupt and can continually pump out huge AoE to pwn any shrine.  It has much more damage than RoJ and has plenty of party support through interupts (interupts RoJers like crazy) and weakness. This build is pure win and quite over powered I must say.  Also, bombers r not all they are cracked up to be for bombing quarries.  They can occasionally finish off a quarry or bomb one if the NPC's are focused on other players, but just like RoJ, their quarry nuking abilities are very fragile and limited. --Smity the Smith  07:16, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * You have a 40/40 set for roj, it wont always take 20 seconds to charge. The only time you need less than 20 seconds is at the quarries anyways, 5 seconds isnt a big deal though. If you don't need chaos storm, why do you have it on the bar. If want to interrupt, you only need to bring power spike, power return, power lock, etc. Learn to cancel roj, most of the time you wont have a ranger or mesmer camping unless your team is horrible. Even then there are ways to work around it. If its seriously a problem, you can use pious concentration/mantra of resolve at the sake of ims and jugger running. You dont have an ims either so you have no chance of getting to yellow and you will take forever to get around the map. Also if you cant play roj or bomber right, you should probably /uninstall gw-- Relyk  talk  09:20, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * What exactly is the appeal of the bomber? Earlier you said this build is bad cus all it does it cap, but you keep praising the bomber which specifically says on its build page the whole point of JQ is to cap shrines. Chaos storm is on the bar because it is powerful and can help take down shrines that are heavily defended.  I was also thinking that cry of frustration might be a good optional instead of chaos storm.  Look relyk, your arguements aren't very good.  Even with all those ways you mentioned to run RoJ, it still cannot produce the constant damage output this build does and still isnt amazing at capping quarries.  --Smity the Smith  19:24, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * The bomber is very quick and almost unstoppable.--Wingsy 19:39, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Accept at quarries where they strip enchants before you die and you end up not being able to take them out by yourself.... --Smity the Smith 21:03, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * That's actually unlikely because people are stupid :) Majority of times i've played it i've successfully run my chain and asploded the quarry. --Wingsy 21:10, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, it is the Quarry NPCs themselves who shatter your enchants. The only time they do not is when they are already focused on another player or have used them on another player, meaning the bomber is dependent on others to nuke quarries.  This build can nuke quarries by itself, doesnt die instantly, and has alot more party support than a bomber.  Best arguement I've heard yet is that it doesnt have an IMS, fine, but honestly if you think you need one that bad there are plenty of ways to incorporate one into the bar without gimping its damage too much. --Smity the Smith  21:15, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

The build is quite fun to play and the spike looks pretty awesome tbh,                                                       too bad Anet made Keystone Signet not trigger on the initial target ;( 15:29, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * The npcs dont shatter your enchantments, they use clumsiness first. Decent bombers will get off signet of agony before the mesmers can shatter anyways. Constant damage output has nothing to do with capping. When was taking down shrines in 8~9 seconds not amazing. Have you even played jq or used either build before smity? You're naivety is depressing.-- Relyk  talk  23:33, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Either way, this build offers a more powerful nuke than RoJ and doesnt kill itself, so can therefore continue to pump out damage, support the party, and quickly get to the next shrine. --<font face="Poor Richard"><font color="Black">Smity the Smith 23:48, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * In what way is a more powerful nuke significant, it takes as long or longer than roj to cap shrine. Getting to the next shrine 5 seconds faster isn't vital either. You haven't given any valid reasons why this is better than roj.-- Relyk  talk  01:13, May 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * RoJ is limited to an adjacent radius. NPCs move around and this follows them. Also, players like heal them so it helps to have bigger damage that you can constantly pump.  With chaos storm, it can take 3 seconds to nuke a shrine btw.  15 second recharge means this can nuke a quarry, then quikly nuke a ranger shrine on its way to the next quarry.  This is a solid option for a mes in JQ, which btw pvx needs more of.  --<font face="Poor Richard"><font color="Black">Smity the Smith  02:07, May 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Except they tend to scatter after chaos storm and you are limited to adjacent as well, especially if wastrel's worry fails. You wont get 3 second caps on quarries reliably. Your only direct damage is signet of disruption and unnatural signet, and there's no big damage there. I dont understand what you imply by "following" either since if they scatter, your "big" damage wont prevent healers from keeping the npcs alive. Chaos Storm has a 30 second recharge, you can't say it's consistently 3 second cap every 15 seconds. By your reasoning, pvx need builds from every profession for jq simply because there are none. Guess what, pvx doesn't need any of those builds.-- Relyk  talk  02:29, May 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * I admit it may not be the easiest build to nuke with, but if you are good you can do a nuke in 3 seconds, just as you are saying you can nuke a quarry with RoJ if you are good. Chaos storm lasts 10 seconds, so even if they do scatter out of it, they will inebitably return.  You also do not need chaos storm if you are soloing a ranger shrine, are having assistance on a quarry (which RoJ usually requires), or just have extra time to spend taking them down.  On an average case, this nukes just as well as RoJ and I would argue better because it has more continued damage and since damage is constantly triggered around your target, the AoE follows your target.  I've seen alot of other builds out there trying to be nukers who don't die if their initial spike didn't work, and this honestly has to be one of the most powerful ones I've seen since it isn't interrupted by the NPCs, has 86 base armor, has a quick recharge, has alot of damage, and can be very strong against single targets. --<font face="Poor Richard"><font color="Black">Smity the Smith  02:39, May 23, 2010 (UTC)

(reset indent) you shoved a bunch of random signets into a bar to get a little aoe damage that could be compacted into one single skill. you didn't even bother putting any skills that synergise with the signet-heavy basis for it (Mantra of Signets, Symbolic Celerity, etc). This is the kind of theorycruft I shoved together when I first saw the buff to Keystone and realised it was awful seconds later. Mr Metal  FLower  -...<font size=0.5> tlk  02:44, May 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * This isn't a theory craft, symbolic celerity is terrible since its an enchantment, mantra of signets isn't here because you get more out of having more signets. The skills aren't random at all, and you are confused if you think it is minor AoE.  Do you realize how much HP NPCs have in JQ?  You have 3 interrupt skills because they are signets, 2 do damage, and they all make it possible to spam wastrel's AoE.  There is absolutely no randomness in this bar, your percieved randomness is your inability to understand. --<font face="Poor Richard"><font color="Black">Smity the Smith  02:48, May 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * (continuing on) More than half the time on the ranger shrines, they will cancel wastrel's with tiger's fury even timing signet of disruption to interrupt the ranger's attack, then you're left with keystone signet recharging so you can finish the last ranger off. When they scatter, most of the times they aren't next to each other, so the adjacent doesn't hit. It takes a whole lot less skill and effort to use roj btw. There really isn't room for ims (dash) or a heal (ether feast). Without chaos storm, if wastrel's worry fails, you only deal 317 damage to adjacent foes, which isn't enough to kill them. Your left hoping to get another wastrels worry down or forced to use chaos storm. They scatter at about 4 hits of chaos storm, same as roj, and take longer than 6 seconds to return usually if they actually move back. While you can make it work, it isn't reliable at all. On the other hand, roj and bomber are very consist when used correctly. The only bright side is you can interrupt signet of agony. You don't even have a way to kill turtles except to cap ranger shrines.-- Relyk  talk  03:15, May 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * tbh, you didn't really make a case for why it isn't reliable, you made a case for it was more difficult for you to run. Learn to use the build and you won't run into half those problems.  No self heal?  How about 86 armor, 3 interrupts, and weakness?  You don't need one.  If you want an ims, you can sacrifice signet of distraction (since it doesnt interrupt non-spell skills), signet of weariness since it is hardly used to take down qaurries, and bring dash + signet of malice.  Sig of malice has a 5 second recharge so you retain the ability to use key stone damage.  I just ran the build, I nuked a rediculous amount of quarries single handedly no problem, and tbh players were scared to be around me cus they knew I interrupt everything they try to throw at me.  --<font face="Poor Richard"><font color="Black">Smity the Smith  03:29, May 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * And no way to kill turtles is just not true. Wastrel's + unnatural signet spam is quite effective vs. the turtle.  Also, if you can't get a wastrel's off at a ranger shrine, you should uninstall.  I'll say it again, with skill, this has amazing capping abilities, and amazing party support through interrupting key enemy spells (and disable them), and weakening physical players. If you need IMS run the Me/A variant. --<font face="Poor Richard"><font color="Black">Smity the Smith  04:24, May 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * There's a point where bias and narrowmindedness for a build is replaced with being an autist, you passed it a long time ago. Have fun having your fantastically effective build vetted.-- Relyk  talk  04:34, May 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's simply a matter of people not understanding the build and not knowing how to run it effectively. Have fun running the standard mind numbing build, I prefer using build which require skill and pwn ppl like you who run the generics. --<font face="Poor Richard"><font color="Black">Smity the Smith  04:39, May 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Btw Relyk, I appreciate that you took the time to fight this one out with me ;) --<font face="Poor Richard"><font color="Black">Smity the Smith 07:50, May 23, 2010 (UTC)

AB
It is actually quite strong in AB. No ims, sure, but you got party members with fall back and battle cry, plus you could always switch a couple skills. I've tested this in AB and it its very good at nuking shrines, and the nearby radius weakness is also very helpful, not to mention the interrupts can be very helpful aswell. --<font face="Poor Richard"><font color="Black">Smity the Smith 21:22, May 22, 2010 (UTC)

Suggestions
Symbolic Celerity and Mantra of Inscriptions. Also, the good thing about this build (or type of build) is that it's strong and defensive. Once you cap the shrine you can actually help defend it! Unlike the shoddy bombers who are constantly in a cap-war.  Minion  Excluded 05:13, May 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think an example bar would be more helpful. Imo symolic celerity is a no no since its an enchantment and once removed signets which depended on it aren't as good. Mantra of Inscriptions sounds great, but how are you gonna fit it on the bar?  You already have key stone signet to help your signet recharge, it just seems unnessecary, and you could get better use with a different skill.  Also, the more signets you have the more armor you have. --<font face="Poor Richard"><font color="Black">Smity the Smith  05:45, May 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * put dash instead of signet of weariness, move to me/a, add ab tag, list mantra of signets for a heal and armor in variants and get it vetted tbh.-- Relyk  talk  06:10, May 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Signet of Clumsiness?, it does great aoe damage, with quick recharge and it has chance to knockdown. --SjoerdieBoy XXL 10:19, May 23, 2010 (UTC)

I was using this and it works pretty damn well, however I was getting ALOT of quarry spread, and many times it just wouldn't work because some NPC ran off...still though, when it worked, it worked well. 72.199.119.247 20:51, May 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * signet of clerity new change would extremely buff this build due to its change where all signet use fastcasting attribute this would be great. To buff any signet from any profession of your choosing like healing signet evenbthoug there are enchant stripping in there you would be interupting them most of the time. I'm typing with my Zune ATM. So I can't spell right or put my up down lol but my user name is jpuzimaki13 :p this build looks perfect.