Archive talk:A/W Shadow Prison Assassin/Archive 1

Frenzy
Frenzy bad. Flurry or Tiger Stance good. Shido 16:28, 14 May 2007 (CEST)
 * This was edited by Eronth for some reason, changing it back. Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] 19:28, 14 May 2007 (CEST)
 * My revision left it the same as how you have it now. I'm actually not sure what i did to it.  Eronth 20:33, 14 May 2007 (CEST)
 * EDIT: I found what i did, i made tiger stance display itself at level 0 rather than show 4..9..10 in the skill description Eronth 20:35, 14 May 2007 (CEST)
 * LOL flurry? so the already pathetic regular attacks can get even more pathetic?

I added a variant saying that Siphon Speed could go with it. It is good to use while Shadow Prison is recharging, or to stop an enemy from following your monk around. (I actually had to use it like this... Hit one with Siphon Speed, the other with Shadow Prison... It went wonderfully! Edit: It was already there... =/ -- frvwfr2  (talk)(contributions) 22:22, 16 May 2007 (CEST)


 * Is Arcane Thievery a counter? --[[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] frvwfr2  (talk)(contributions) 18:03, 19 May 2007 (CEST)

@above anon... flurry only reduces regular atks dmg, bonus dmg is unaffected. frvwfr2  (talk···contributions) 05:19, 20 May 2007 (CEST)
 * But there's simply no need, TS's recharge even matches perfectly with Shadow Prison. Tycn 05:32, 20 May 2007 (CEST)

Why not use Burst of Aggresion...yes it requires NF but IMO a much better skill than tiger's stance...especially seeing as sins dont use andrenaline...atleast not this build.~Ashvirenza
 * It got nerfed to 2...9 seconds. The spike needs at least 4 seconds to get the full benefit of the speed boost, so you can't use BoA. LavaEdge324 08:53, 10 June 2007 (EDT)
 * My bad...didnt even realize the attribute thing...I was only looking at max duration and Tiger Stance duration...sorry for my above comment.~Ashvirenza
 * You madea mistake... don't be sorry. - Skakid9090 14:29, 11 June 2007 (EDT)

Checked and Reviewed
For Viability. Readem (talk *pvxcontribs ) 06:53, 7 June 2007 (CEST)

Gah!
Its featured! NOOO! I have Conjure Nightmare on me! --NYC Elite 17:03, 15 June 2007 (EDT)


 * What, no thanks! No appreciation any more :P... Readem (talk *pvxcontribs ) 17:34, 15 June 2007 (EDT)
 * Lol. Quick, hide it, before more start using it! /beg --NYC Elite 17:41, 15 June 2007 (EDT)
 * i know... mess up the attributes ... so noobs cant use it ! (or hide it :P) --Iwan13 16:11, 7 August 2007 (CEST)

Toucher
I swear this build is like a new toucher--everyone either plays one or hates them. Or both. Very effective, though. Reason.decrystallized 10:10, 17 June 2007 (EDT)
 * Yeah, but these have easier counters. Insidious Parasite/Empathy FTW! Mending Touch works REALLY well too... Just make sure you get Deep Wound... [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] frvwfr2  (talk · contributions) 12:56, 17 June 2007 (EDT)
 * Or just killing them since they rarely have any more than feigned neutrality or shadow refuge for defense/healing. --Edru viransu 13:08, 17 June 2007 (EDT)
 * Or interrupt their combo, or use Mind Freeze/Icy Shackles, or blind them, or laugh at them. So many counters, and Touchers are no different. --NYC Elite 14:03, 17 June 2007 (EDT)

i played this build for awhile...thought it was pretty cool. But it felt so dirty...so unoriginal. oh yeah and it can't heal itself for beans. very powerful offense but I would have to say flurry over tigers considering the just sorta little tiny issue of a 20 second recharge on tigers.CountKerall 07:38, 18 June 2007 (EDT)
 * What's wrong with the RC? It's only used for the spike anyway, which, you guessed it, takes 20 seconds to recharge. LavaEdge324 10:32, 18 June 2007 (EDT)
 * Tiger's is fine. If you miss, your combo is screwed anyways. And Tiger's has the same recharge as Shadow Prison. I was probably among the few that ran it during NFPE. Then, it was posted here, everyone used it, and it takes no skill really. I don't even bother touching it anymore. This build is like a Touch Ranger. Gimmicky, highly unoriginal, boring, and way too easy to play/counter. --NYC Elite 11:29, 18 June 2007 (EDT)

Heh, I was playing in Int. District TA, and fought a sin using this build. After I killed him with, he called me a noob because I wasn't using SP/TS. Geez, and I expected better from International... LavaEdge324 06:07, 25 June 2007 (EDT)
 * Tbh, I would've expected that to not even be run in int. Then again, its int. and TA... gotta run gimmicks... gotta be elitist. --NYC Elite 06:09, 25 June 2007 (EDT)

Creator, step forth!
Whoever made this, you are a --g genious. Period. Hands down, the best dude/dudette ever. Plz step forth so that I may worship you!  Marin  Blood  bane  02:04, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
 * /Waits for thousands of noobs to appear out of nowhere and claim this 'honor', only to be zomgwtfbbqpwned by an angry mob =P --NYC Elite 02:33, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
 * Duh, it was me. Same with 55 monk. - Skakid9090 11:30, 23 June 2007 (EDT)
 * Actually, It was me. I was just throwing random skills on my skill bar and tested to see if they flowed and I got really really lucky. /lie ‽-(єяøηħ)  no u 14:23, 23 June 2007 (EDT)
 * I think it was Readem, I remember seeing someone list the history of its creation on their GuildWiki userpage
 * No. =P --NYC Elite 11:01, 26 June 2007 (EDT)
 * No one created this Build. It was adopted by the meta-game, when everything took a nerf including B-Surge, FN+DP, RaO, and many others. That same update, Assassin skills got buffed. Someone simply recorded it. 75.162.242.246 13:01, 26 June 2007 (EDT)
 * To be fair, these were flying around during Preview Event. I, ashamed to admit, was one who ran it back then. --NYC Elite 13:08, 26 June 2007 (EDT)

Ebon Daggers?
I've seen ebon daggers needed on plenty of builds, and I'm not really sure why they are good against warriors. Anyone care to explain? PaintballerOWNZ 03:14, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
 * Warriors have +20AL vs Physical damage, but not vs Ele damage. Most players carry protection against Fire and Lightning damage, possibly Cold too, as al these are common and can be used by Conjure builds. Earth dmg is rarer and has no associated conjure, so few players take specific protection vs it (unless they take one of every bonus AL offhand). Egon 04:00, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
 * Almost nobody brings earth AL shields tbh, and even if they did, they would switch to slashing AL if they see a sin coming at em. - Auron 15:12, 19 June 2007 (EDT)
 * Ehm, daggers are piercing unless you're on a non-pvp char with a special weapon set. And that's not common. Unexist 03:55, 20 June 2007 (EDT)
 * Or unless you get someone to sell you a non piercing set? ‽-(єяøηħ)  no u 05:54, 20 June 2007 (EDT)

Merged a variant
Added an effective varriant (open to modification and discussion of course) to the variant section at the bottom of the page. The build came from Shireen  sysop  09:00, 20 June 2007 (EDT)

[build prof=assas/warri dagger=10+1 critic=10+1 deadly=10+1 Shadow=5][shadow prison][tiger stance@0][black spider strike][Death Blossom][Impale][Signet Of Toxic Shock][Feigned Neutrality][optional][/build]

Would the comunity as a whole be willing to allow this posted at the bottom of the page under variants? I posted it once and it was quckly taken down. Is that the consensus of everyone? Shireen sysop  17:02, 20 June 2007 (EDT)
 * Skills are in variants, no need for a 2nd bar. - <font color="Black">Skakid9090 17:04, 20 June 2007 (EDT)

How about if we did one of those mini bars for visual refrence of a significant variant, as opposed to digging through text. We all seem to be very visual around here and much less text reading people. I am trying to think of ways to cut down on the copy cat builds we get tons and tons of. If I can set a good visual example for others to follow... <font face="arial" color="Green">Shireen sysop  17:08, 20 June 2007 (EDT)

While your on the subject of the AP variant. Can we please point out that Lightning Reflexes is a better choice is your using Assassin's Promise. It lasts a second longer and blocks 75% of physical attacks. BETTER. And before someone says that is takes 10 extra seconds to recharge please read the skill discription of AP. 24.18.131.180 17:38, 25 August 2007 (CEST)

I liked that Deadly Arts variant alot, so much I had to post what I use in AB:

Does wonders for energy management if you choose your targets carefully.-Unreal Havoc 18:19, 12 August 2007 (CEST)

Mark of Instability
I think Mark of instability replaced for expose defenses and falling spider for black spider strike should be added onto the variants. It substitutes unblockability for a knockdown with the same amount of damage. || Ressmonkey 08:45, 25 June 2007 (EDT)

Expose is too good to replace. Spider is more reliable. MoI is just kinda bad. <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 08:48, 25 June 2007 (EDT)
 * Darn edit conflicts today...MoI isn't being replaced unless you can magically create a 9th skill slot to counter blocking. And its not even commonly run, so it shouldn't be anywhere outside of possibly variants. --NYC Elite 08:50, 25 June 2007 (EDT)

Impale > anything else
Impale and Siphon Speed are very important in this build, which I can know as a top 50 HB player who ALWAYS faces Assassins.
 * So you don't find the twisting fangs a little bit redundant? And Siphon Speed is fine for HB, but nowhere near as useful in RA etc. - Auron 23:18, 26 June 2007 (EDT)
 * People only run those because they don't need a rez, so they can drop TF for more damage and use Impale for DW. Tycn 23:42, 26 June 2007 (EDT)
 * Yeah Twisting should stay. People really only bring HotO and Impale instead of Twisting in HB b/c they don't need a res as stated before. HB isn't the only place this build is centered around anyways. --NYC Elite 03:03, 27 June 2007 (EDT)

Flurry
I don't understand why flurry gets so much hate here, the damage it takes away is VERY small. It only deducts from the base 7-17 damage of the daggers, not the bonus damage from the attack chain. So your 7-17 base damage becomes 5-13, which can easily be made up by vampiric daggers and the fact the IAS from flurry is constantly maintainable.

On a happier note, I'm glad to see this vetted here, I was the poster of the BoA Sin article on the old Guild Wiki. --Hikari 03:54, 3 July 2007 (CEST)
 * I ALWAYS use Flurry, as since I use zealous daggers, the energy gain from flurry and critical hits is far higher than that of just non-IAS attacking. And with Flurry I have an IAS that doesn't end from a block because you didn't take expose defences. But with vampiric daggers 1 extra damage kinda doesn't make up for the loss of 2 damage or so, it just limits it to an average of 1 point less damage. But still, zealous beats vampiric IMO. <font color=#ff0000>Napalm Flame  ^_^ [[Image:Napalm_Flame_Sig_Image.JPG‎]] <font color=#0000ff>(talk)·(contributions) 18:48, 3 July 2007 (CEST)

Black Spider before Black Lotus
Would be better? Since you get more poison degen in then, and on top of that it guarantees Black Lotus' efficiency. <font color=#ff0000>Napalm Flame  ^_^ <font color=#0000ff>(talk)·(contributions) 02:11, 6 July 2007 (CEST)
 * No energy. This is THE way. [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] <font color=#6e8b3d>frvwfr2  (talk · contributions) 02:12, 6 July 2007 (CEST)
 * I have 40 energy in all and use zealous daggers, and I still have like 10 or 15 energy before getting off black lotus. <font color=#ff0000>Napalm Flame  ^_^ [[Image:Napalm_Flame_Sig_Image.JPG‎]] <font color=#0000ff>(talk)·(contributions) 02:14, 6 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Energy problems. <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 02:15, 6 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Calculate... 35 energy (the norm) - Shadow Prison (25) - Tiger Stance (20) - Black Spider Strike (15) - Twisting Fangs (0) - not enough energy for Black Lotus again. --Nova (not logged in) 04:21, 7 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Nah, if you take into account Energy regen...<BR>

Norm Sin Energy: 35<BR> Cost of Skills before BLS if used as second off-hand: 30<BR> Energy without any interference: 5<BR> Energy W/ Zealous Daggers, no Energy regen: 8<BR> Total Energy Regen over time, until after TF: 11 or 12, depending on regen algorithm.<BR> BLS Possible?: Yes.<BR> LavaEdge324 03:50, 17 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Alright it's possible, but why would you? Covering the deep wound is more important than covering the poison... Wyvern 07:33, 17 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Gotta remember, my only point is that it was possible. Never said it worked better -_- LavaEdge324 23:18, 18 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Yeah sorry, that was more directed to Napalm, sorry the indent made it look like it was towards you. Once again sorry Wyvern 23:25, 18 July 2007 (CEST)

Not GvG or HA
You don't see these in HA anymore, and don't think they would be effective there. And as for a GvG build... Jokes? <font color=#ff0000>Napalm Flame  ^_^ <font color=#0000ff>(talk)·(contributions) 02:13, 6 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Can be used in HA, and GvG...lol. They are the best gankers available. <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 02:16, 6 July 2007 (CEST)
 * I've seen assassins in GvG and I've only seen one or two run a build similar to this. And as for being the best... Perhaps, but the W/D is generally a better choice over this IMO. [HAnD], anyone? <font color=#ff0000>Napalm Flame  ^_^ [[Image:Napalm_Flame_Sig_Image.JPG‎]] <font color=#0000ff>(talk)·(contributions) 02:20, 6 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Why do you think [vD] is #1? (Besides being better then everyone else...) because their SP Recall Gankers pwned face. <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 04:29, 7 July 2007 (CEST)
 * That's false. The real reason that [vD] is #1 is that iQ spends too much time playing on their smurfs. :) --Edru viransu 05:25, 17 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Actually, RenO overtook vD in the last daily tournament. But yeh, if iQ ran their bonder/smiter/three dervish builds non-smurf, they'd be tearing it up hardcore. - Auron 05:43, 17 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Wow, way to fail, reno, back down to #2... - Auron 05:44, 17 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Yeah, you pretty much don't beat that build without NR/Tranq(and even then, they'd only have a little less pressure(less smiting), and might have to drop a few barriers or pull their runner back farther to stay away from dshot or diversions on blessed sig)). Ensign's explanation of how to run flags with a Life Barrier runner is, despite its relative shortness for a remarkably insightful or informative Ensign post, is really something that everyone should read, because it somewhat applies in any build and is just so important for people to understand. --Edru viransu 05:55, 17 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Linkage? - Auron 06:25, 17 July 2007 (CEST)
 * The most important thing to know about flagrunning. --Edru viransu 06:31, 17 July 2007 (CEST)
 * vD's return sin split was awesome. That cannot be denied ;). <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 16:03, 17 July 2007 (CEST)

Fox's Promise
I ran this build, but I used Fox's Promise with Siphon Speed. It worked great! Unblockable=awesome. I also used Golden Pheonix Strike instead of Black Spider Strike. <font color=#6e8b3d>frvwfr2  (talk · contributions) 20:01, 7 July 2007 (CEST)
 * expose defenses? Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] (<font color="Black">contributions  * warrior guide ) 20:12, 7 July 2007 (CEST)
 * But you can switch targets whenever you want pretty much. [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] <font color=#6e8b3d>frvwfr2  (talk · contributions) 20:22, 7 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Meh wasted elite IMO. And a whole different build. Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] (<font color="Black">contributions  * warrior guide ) 20:41, 7 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Just 3 skills, and 1 of them is listed as a variant here. [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] <font color=#6e8b3d>frvwfr2  (talk · contributions) 02:41, 8 August 2007 (CEST)
 * You'd have no reason to use a hex, since you have an enchant, which gives another chain. You could use another hex (as you suggested) and lose the energy from BLS or the degen from BSS. However you could run GLS>HotO>FS>TF/BoS, but that is, just as I said before a whole different chain. And it probably requires more energy management than the "regular" SP sin. You'd also be a target of enchantment removal. And Oh My God, am I still talking? >_< Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] (<font color="Black">contributions  * warrior guide ) 11:46, 8 July 2007 (CEST)

i still love this build dont get me wrong but it seems as of late its not as effective. maybe ppl are going and countering it more idk but its still a great build.Mizzouman2002 20:18, 10 July 2007 (CEST)

They buffed other skills. SP sins are no longer Imba. <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 20:46, 10 July 2007 (CEST)
 * it's good to see other sin builds in play, allthough SP is still dominating, with a reason. Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] (<font color="Black">contributions  * warrior guide ) 22:06, 10 July 2007 (CEST)
 * it's also the case that this grew so common that nearly everyone brings counters in PVP--blind, blocking, some sort of kd or attack interrupt for the chain, etc--once it ganks you for the umpteenth time, you start learning how to fight it.--Reason.decrystallized 17:25, 28 July 2007 (CEST)

Critical Agility
Am I one of the few that uses this in PvE? I used to use this build but with Burst of Aggression instead of the stance. I find it great to target Monks and other casters, and now with Critical Agility and the fact it lasts longer and adds armor, its nice to target something and then just start wailing on things. - Gizmo


 * Your kidding right? This in PvE? --[[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] <font color=#6e8b3d>frvwfr2  (talk · contributions) 06:20, 14 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Yeh, bring AP and some survivability in PvE. - [[Image:Kowal.jpg|15px]] <font face="dauphin" color="maroon">Krowman   07:30, 14 July 2007 (CEST)
 * IMO this isn't going to work so great in pvp. i used the attack chain with Assassin's Promise and a shadow step, and it was all right, but the recharge on the combo is too long to be useful pve imo.--Reason.decrystallized 17:27, 28 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Recharge? U did say u used AP right...??? =), are you NOT killing the target? this should easily kill normal mobs and bosses recharge yer skills anyway--Midnight08 07:36, 6 August 2007 (CEST)
 * AP + Crit Ag = spamming attacks everywhere. Arguably better than Moebius spamming. - [[Image:Kowal.jpg|15px]] <font face="dauphin" color="maroon">Krowman   08:08, 6 August 2007 (CEST)

Variants?
Hail. I'm a newer user here, so forgive me if I misstep my boundaries in terms of etiquette, but I wanted to ask if others found the separate articles on the sin to be rather unwieldly. The vast majority of these builds are very simply a tested chain around some combination of utility hexes, kiting skills and IAS stances. In that respect, does it make sense for certain builds to remain distinct? For example, A/Me Disrupting Steel, A/Mo Shroud of Blades, A/any Beguiling Steel, seem to be mostly redundant in light of this article, given this article's enumeration of possible variants. At this point, it strikes me that perhaps collapsing these articles into another article, in the same respect as the R/any General Barrager, might be a stronger option. Sun Fired Blank 09:26, 15 July 2007 (CEST)
 * In general, yeah, I'd be in favor of a merge. With your list of suggested merges, though, I disagree. The A/Me is specifically a ganking bar for GvG, and is played (even at stand) in a substantially different manner. The Beguiling Haze bar also serves a different purpose; pressure/kills via Daze, not the SP's tactic of kills through pure damage.
 * In this case... there simply aren't any other skills to use. Every bar that has a semi-expensive combo will have Black Lotus strike; that doesn't make it a variant, it means that the creator was looking for energy management. Black Spider Strike is inferior to some offhand attacks, but is the best offhand attack triggered from a hex... again, not really a variant, just a lack of good skills to use (on ANets part).
 * And, way off topic, etiquette on this wiki extends only so far as PW:NPA. You're very much in your boundaries to ask questions. - Auron 12:04, 15 July 2007 (CEST)
 * I am not in favor of a merge. The "SP chain" is simply the most useful assassin attacks out there. Skipping leads, energy management, 3 conditions (one which is DW) and high damage (BoS especially). The best way to skip leads and get straight to the ass kicking is through hexes, thus BLS and BSS are given. Going through an enchant (GLS) is more costy and does not give to chance for another offhand followup (such as BLS > Dual > BSS). Disrupting Steel h/e could have an extra page here IMO, while some of the horrible variants could be removed. Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] (<font color="Black">contributions  * warrior guide ) 12:45, 15 July 2007 (CEST)
 * With respect, if the argument is merely for a pressure and spike distinction, I firmly disagree. I've always felt pressure actively forces a response while spike circumvents or shortens any response window.  In this respect, I feel that  or A/W Fear-Inspiring Sin are both pressure builds, while Shroud of Blades and Beguiling Steel are both definitely spike.  While you could make an argument for Shroud of Blades offering pressure under the right circumstances, you sort of end up back at square one, where you've merely silenced one target while unleashing the rapid chain upon a more vulnerable or unprepared target.


 * While I agree that Disrupting Steel is played in a different fashion than the average Shadow Prison Assassin, that doesn't strike me as a compelling argument either. For example, under variants, the use of Assassin's Promise and Dark Prison in Alliance Battles forces a radical play change.  It becomes far more important for you to drop a target, which necessitates more ganking.  It also imparts greater longevity in situations where you can eliminate multiple targets.  And yet, fundamentally, the idea remains the same; snare your target, prevent a target response, unleash chain.  There are several other builds where variants are listed that radically change playstyle, but they don't have separate pages because the core premise remains the same.


 * If we aren't collapsing other articles into something like: A/any Snare Spike Sin, perhaps the Shadow Prison article should be refined with a sharper focus. Sun Fired Blank 00:09, 16 July 2007 (CEST)

Tactics variant
I can't touch it because of GW:1RV, but that is a pretty bad variant. Heal sig is bad on an assassin, disciplined stance doesn't serve much of a purpose, the runes are suicide. This isn't a build for 1 on 1 assassin duels. Tycn 07:21, 17 July 2007 (CEST)
 * I agree, people really should bring variants up in the talk page before going on an editing frenzy, anyone have any objections? Wyvern 07:34, 17 July 2007 (CEST)
 * I thought I had already RB'ed it. Removed it from the page nonetheless. - [[Image:Kowal.jpg|15px]] <font face="dauphin" color="maroon">Krowman   08:11, 17 July 2007 (CEST)

Flashing Blades
Lasts 27 secs out of 30. You can run it, Siphon Speed, Expose Defenses, and the normal bar. You lose your IAS but more than triple your survivability. Worthy of variants? <font color=#6e8b3d>frvwfr2  (talk · contributions) 19:36, 6 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Err, I would generally say "No". <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 19:41, 6 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Flashing blades doesn't really deserve the elite status, critical defenses works just as well, is non-elite, can be kept up easily and the blocking isn't conditional. Just run that Wyvern 19:57, 6 August 2007 (CEST)

nerf
do not archive yet. wait for week to pass. -- Nova   --  (contribs) 23:39, 9 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Wait for it to be determined if it was nerfed out of usefulness, rather, yes? GPS buff = ftw, tbh. --<font color="Black">Edru viransu //<font color="Red">QQ about me 23:41, 9 August 2007 (CEST)
 * It's not dead. It won't be dead. 32 energy will be new cost of the chain. Run Radiants, and you are fine. Meh, it might be... guardian may pwn it now, with 25 cd on expose. [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] <font color=#6e8b3d>frvwfr2  (talk · contributions) 00:52, 10 August 2007 (CEST) At the very least, it will work in HB, unless everyone changes to Monks... if so, then its done there too.

The old GPS HOTO FS TF AoD build comes to mind with the nerf on that combo gone. --Hikari 03:41, 10 August 2007 (CEST)
 * SHOCK SIN SHOCK SIN SHOCK SIN SHOCK SIN SHOCK SIN SHOCK SIN gogogo. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 05:20, 10 August 2007 (CEST)
 * what he said!--Iwan13 02:31, 12 August 2007 (CEST)

As I've said before, this build laughs in the face of the ANet Nerfbat. The combo is still highly usable, just run Radiants and +5 Daggers. Though... the revert of GPS is looking good as well. LavaEdge324 14:12, 17 August 2007 (CEST)

PvE?
Viable for pve? or nerfed into semi-oblivion? Dean 23:57, 13 August 2007 (CEST)


 * Never was? You don't want a spiker you want constant dmg, pref AoE, in PvE. Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] (<font color="Black">contributions  * warrior guide ) 00:23, 14 August 2007 (CEST)

Changing =P

 * This bar may be run in RA, but Horns/Impale is run everywhere else, this is in the great category and should have a great bar, the SP/Recall bar is better than this, yet is in the " Good " section. So I'm gonna take out expose and tf, for Horns and Impale. --Hikari 07:24, 21 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Umm, not it's not. Twisting is way better. Also, expose still rocks.  —ǥrɩɳsɧƿoɲ  〚 ŞƳŞŌƤ 〛 07:30, 21 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Tell that to [vD], [frag], and most of the top Hero Battlers. --Hikari 07:32, 21 August 2007 (CEST)


 * Also, GW:1RV.  —ǥrɩɳsɧƿoɲ  〚 ŞƳŞŌƤ 〛 07:31, 21 August 2007 (CEST)


 * I never really red the policy list...but ok then. --Hikari 07:33, 21 August 2007 (CEST)


 * That's Hero Battles, and if you ask anyone from [vD] or [frag], they will tell you that Hero Battles = fail. Reverting. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 02:23, 22 August 2007 (CEST)
 * [Reno] runs this:


 * Just thought that might be worth pointing out. --<font color="Black">Edru viransu //<font color="Red">QQ about me 02:33, 22 August 2007 (CEST)
 * One of the many reasons why RenO is hated by every other GvG guild. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 02:41, 22 August 2007 (CEST)
 * I doubt the particular bar they run is much reason for people to hate them, unless it's particularly better than the current one, tbh. --<font color="Black">Edru viransu //<font color="Red">QQ about me 02:46, 22 August 2007 (CEST)
 * The Hexway is the source of of most of it. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 02:49, 22 August 2007 (CEST)
 * vD ran that bar for the longest time. Until Recall got nerfed that is. <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 02:51, 22 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Before people realized it was overpowered and required minimal skill. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 02:55, 22 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Umm... builds requiring little skill and being overpowered will still get run, although they'll get ran less in ladder play, because ladder play hardly matters anymore. Hexes were meta for just that reason. --<font color="Black">Edru viransu //<font color="Red">QQ about me 02:57, 22 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Kinda what I meant. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 03:00, 22 August 2007 (CEST)
 * The best bars are overpowered and easy to play. Don't lie to yourself Rapta! <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 03:15, 22 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Double DW is ftl. <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 01:14, 23 August 2007 (CEST)

Build been edited wrongly?
I both like and hate this build but i feel that it has been messed up. Right now, it includes impale instead of expose defenses. Expose is really handy. I was thinking that someone was changing it to use horns of the ox instead of twisting fangs but keeping a deep wound in there with impale. But now, it has impale and twisting fangs, two deep wounds. Deep wound can be handy and helps to be covered by the poison this build inflicts. But impale then covers the poison again. Pointless. Twisting fangs also causes bleeding so i find it better than impale.

In the build usage, it mentions expose defenses as if it was still there and in variants it mentions impale as if it wasn't there. I am guessing this is a mistake and i hope that the build is set right. I am not willing to change the build to correct it because i didn't even know how to add this comment in the first place and the build change may be intentional. --Ares 17:38, 23 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Impale is there as a last-ditch damager. Kind of like Protector's Strike on a warrior post-spike.  —ǥrɩɳsɧƿoɲ  〚 ŞƳŞŌƤ 〛 17:42, 23 August 2007 (CEST)


 * Mmm...I changed it to Reno's version, then someone changed it back, i changed it back, information was lost/confused in between, and here we are, back where we started...-_- --Hikari 01:42, 24 August 2007 (CEST)

Just add Recall as a variant, use the same chain BLS<HotO<BSS<BoS<Impale, and I'll just remove delete the other one. This is the one, almost everyone is using currently (if at all :P). <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 04:56, 24 August 2007 (CEST)

mmmk. --Hikari 18:02, 29 August 2007 (CEST)

I have changed the build back to what i think is the original. Twisting Fangs is now what someone replaced as Horns of the Ox. Someone ruled out Expose Defenses for Impale. Taking out Expose Defenses removes this build versatility, as it will fail against blocks. I will change the variants to match what was replaced, but I believe this should remain on the main skill bar.-- Victoryisyours 22:07, 30 August 2007 (CEST)