Archive talk:Team - Barrage/Pet

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Bad Explanation under R/W Savior Barrager build
I'm taking great issue with this statement: "The reason why people left b/p is because monks had a very hard job...." It is just totally untrue. I ran the older version of the B/P team build before all the PvE-only skills and before Paragon support skills came along. A good Orders necro with BiP or Blood Ritual for the MM especially but secondarily for the monk, while maintaining Succor on the monk for his full-time energy regen is all that is needed to keep the monk from having a hard time. Good play by the front line barragers and MM makes the monk's job relatively boring. I have had a number of PUG monks say to me, I donno what it is but I usually find healing B/P team to be hard, but with you running Orders, I am nearly bored out of my mind with the run. Frankly, some people treat PvXwiki like the bible, but then others ignore it and kick you from a team if your skillbar isn't exactly what they prejudicially expect. Even when you can explain why your one optional skill beats the hell out of their one skill they require you to take. (Case in point is Orders necro running Succor on the monk. PUG teams frequently did not understand or appreciate it, but my experience was, it was life changing for the monk, and therefore the team.)

Anyway, back to the specifics of this article. The quote above ("people left b/p...monks...hard job") is directly contradicted WITHIN the article itself! See the Backliners section where this quote, "if all goes well, the monk won't need to do much healing at all" and this, "A monk capable of healing the entire party, the same as the one in the old b/p. But the difference is, here he has an easier job" both show that the above statement needs to be excised. Queen of Spades 15:11, March 17, 2010 (UTC)

Ritualists
Minion Bomber build for the Ritualist/Necromancer is wrong, it should have Animate Bone Minions and Taste of Death like so:

[build name="Explosive Animator" prof=ritua/necro spawni=12+1+3 deathm=12][animate bone minions][animate shambling horror][animate flesh golem][death nova][signet of creation][boon of creation][explosive growth][taste of death][/build]

Because it does double damage from Explosive Growth as it creates two minions instead of just one (ie:2x68 Lightning Damage), the level of the Minions doesn't matter because the whole point is for them to die anyway.

Also why no Ritualist/Ranger Splinter Barrager?

[build prof=Ritualist/Ranger Channeling=12+1+3 Marksmanship=12 Beast=3][Splinter Weapon][Barrage] [Nightmare Weapon][Triple Shot (Luxon)][Ancestors Rage][Charm Animal][Comfort Animal][Flesh of my Flesh][/build]

The AoE damage they can achieve thanks to the much higher Channeling, coupled with "I Am The Strongest!" (exchange for Wailing Weapon) is insane compared to the Ranger version. Zealous is not required either due to the much higher energy available and the energy recovery. Selket Shadowdancer 03:57, 4 January 2008 (EST)


 * Why not Rt/R Splinter? No Expertise. 'Nuff said. [[Image:Dr4goNsig1.jpg|19px]]Dr4goN ( talk /pvxcontribs ) 14:15, 4 January 2008 (EST)


 * Lack of Expertise on a proffession with higher energy, higher energy recovery, and overall more AoE damage, isn't a problem. Selket Shadowdancer 12:09, 18 January 2008 (EST)
 * But you won't always be triggering splinter, and in those cases I'd much rather have higher marks. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 13:49, 18 January 2008 (EST)
 * The higher AoE damage from higher points in Channeling, not to mention heightened life stealing and AoE interrupting capabilities more than make up for that. I've never had any issues using my Ritualist in Tombs as a Barrager and if you can throw in a Critical Barrager then I see no reason why a Splinter Barrage Ritualist/Ranger shouldn't get a mention too. Wielders Strike goes in nicely too. Selket Shadowdancer 19:32, 18 January 2008 (EST)
 * Wailing Weapon, Nightmare Weapon, and Wielder's Strike are all bad. Your job is to send out as many arrows as fast as possible and have them all trigger splinter. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 14:04, 19 January 2008 (EST)
 * Wailing Weapon=AoE interrupt when used with Barrage, hardly bad. Wielders Strike is not even in the build I posted. Nightmare Weapon used with Triple Shot is for finishing off remaining targets with 141 armour ignoring damage and also gives impressive self healing. Most of the time you will be simply spamming Splinter Weapon and Barrage, the other skills are to deal with other situations as nessacary and make you a bit more versatile without spreading attributes out too thinly. Selket Shadowdancer 16:40, 21 January 2008 (EST)
 * Wailing Weapon is bad. --71.229.204.25 16:44, 21 January 2008 (EST)
 * There's no point in carrying bloody three weapon spells when you can just kill everyone with one. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 17:55, 21 January 2008 (EST)
 * If that's how you feel about it then add some skills that you think are more suitable for the task then as it's only a suggestion. Still doesn't change the fact that a Ritualist/Ranger Splinter Barrager is still far more effective for doing mass AoE damage that a Critical Barrager and on those grounds alone deserves a mention if a Critical Barager can be added. EDIT: Also unless you have a specific reason for it you still haven't fixed the Minion Bomber either as mentioned above. Selket Shadowdancer 19:17, 21 January 2008 (EST)
 * I've not been paying attention to this build much, as ToPK is kind of a joke and a balanced build owns it. If someone else wants to put it in, do so, but make sure it's good before putting it in. (On that note, if the crit barrager's still in, it should be taken out.) -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 19:55, 21 January 2008 (EST)
 * While not superior to a Splinter Barrager I feel that any build that is good enough to allow other proffessions to join teams to farm Tombs is worthy of being added. Critical Barrager should stay in my opinion. Selket Shadowdancer 21:36, 21 January 2008 (EST)
 * So would you advocate adding in a bar with barrage, charm, and comfort? Cause that works too. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 14:33, 22 January 2008 (EST)
 * I see where this is going, but the Assassin version does offer something most other Barragers cannot achieve. AoE Bleeding and Critical Hits with great energy management. It's not better than a Splinter Barrager (either Ritualist or Ranger primary) for mass AoE damage, but it's a damn good alternative that allows an Assassin to join a Barrage Pet team and actually do something to make it worth it's place in the team in the first place. Selket Shadowdancer 14:51, 22 January 2008 (EST)
 * It can't hope to keep up with the damage of a splinter barrager, it can't spread bleeding nearly as well due to the introduction of Jagged Horrors, and Expertise works fine as energy management. Why do we have it again? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 18:54, 22 January 2008 (EST)
 * But you see, this is my point, I'm not saying it can. I'm saying it's a decent alternative that allows an Assassin to participate in Tombs parties. Selket Shadowdancer 19:07, 22 January 2008 (EST)
 * But does that make it good? Unfortunately, no. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 22:32, 22 January 2008 (EST)
 * On it's own merits, what isn't good about a Critical Barrager? Selket Shadowdancer 06:26, 23 January 2008 (EST)
 * Four posts up. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 16:54, 23 January 2008 (EST)
 * I said on its own merits. That means not compared to another build. Selket Shadowdancer 17:07, 26 January 2008 (EST)
 * A build with Barrage, Charm Animal, and Comfort Animal has the merits of being able to complete tombs. We can't compare it to a splinter barrager, can we? Oh, wait, it sucks. So we are comparing them, because we want builds to work well. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 17:20, 26 January 2008 (EST)
 * How does a Critical Barrager suck? Please explain. Selket Shadowdancer 17:26, 26 January 2008 (EST)
 * So you're back to your original fallacious argument that builds with similar functions can't be compared. Oh, okay, assuming that makes a lot of sense. Auron, lol -Shen 17:31, 26 January 2008 (EST)
 * Awnser the question. Selket Shadowdancer 17:34, 26 January 2008 (EST)
 * Ten (10) posts up. -Shen 17:35, 26 January 2008 (EST)
 * It was actually ten, but you beat me to saying that, so now I get to say eleven posts up from here. Damn you double edit conflicts. Still eleven posts up from here. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 17:36, 26 January 2008 (EST)
 * That doesn't qualify the Critical Barrager as a bad build that sucks though does it? That just qualifies it as a build that is unfavoured compared to a Splinter Barrager. So... as I said, awnser the question. Why does a Critical Barager suck? Selket Shadowdancer 17:39, 26 January 2008 (EST)
 * Actually, it does qualify it as a build that sucks. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 17:41, 26 January 2008 (EST)

Builds Excellent rating says otherwise. Selket Shadowdancer 17:45, 26 January 2008 (EST)
 * Yeah, that's because the team as a whole is excellent. Besides, it's not on the main page, last I checked. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 17:46, 26 January 2008 (EST)
 * I was talking about the Critical Barragers rating. Not the team builds rating. Selket Shadowdancer 17:52, 26 January 2008 (EST)
 * Where do you find that? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 17:53, 26 January 2008 (EST)
 * On it's friggin build page. You should bloody know where to find it Mr Sysop, lol. Selket Shadowdancer 17:55, 26 January 2008 (EST)
 * (Less EC's nub)Why? To demonstrate a point, look at TA rangers. They take Purge Sig and sometimes Holy Viel. Because Guild Wars is a team game. Same with Crit Barrage+MM's/Splinter Barrage. -Shen 17:56, 26 January 2008 (EST)
 * Don't call me a nub, that's just uncalled for. Also I don't get the point you are trying to make. Selket Shadowdancer 18:00, 26 January 2008 (EST)
 * I was talking to Armond, jokingly. Sorry if you misinterpreted that. Point is, your "great rating on Crit Barrager Build" argument is shot because this is a team build. -Shen 18:02, 26 January 2008 (EST)
 * So it's removed because it's inferior to a Splinter Barrager. Say goodbye to the Ranger Paragon too then. No way is that superior to a Critical Barrager, nevermind a Splinter Barrager on that arguement alone. Selket Shadowdancer 18:04, 26 January 2008 (EST)
 * I've been debating that, but for now I'm thinking it should stay simply because it provides party support that the splinter barrager doesn't. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 18:52, 26 January 2008 (EST)
 * It would provide more support by Splintering and adding more WTF AoE damage pwnage in my opinion. If you want the best then Splinter Barrage Rangers and Ritualists are the way to go. Leave the support to the other proffession in the team build seems that's what they're there for. No point sacrificing damage if you want to go for the best that the build can be. Selket Shadowdancer 20:13, 26 January 2008 (EST)
 * The arrogance of people who act like they OWN PvXwiki and know exactly what everyone should run who wants to have fun with this team build and variations of it makes me wanna puke! Yeah, I mean especially you, Armond Warblade. Sickening. No wonder PvXwiki gets such a bad rap in the player world from pretty good players. For instance, I ran Critical Barrager many times on teams in the old days and 40+ % chance to crit is nothing to sneeze at. Regardless, not every team can or will be able to run precisely 100% the most super-duper build down to the last skill, but they can still work very well. Besides, face the fact that different people will argue both the builds and individual skill selection for months and years after you presume to say the build isn't even being used anymore! lmao @ your presumption. I've used variations of this build to 2-man with heroes a FoW clear, so I know both that the team build is still being used, and isn't so freaking particular as you try to make it out to be. Please wake up and recognize that you admins or Lead Build Gurus are just a very, very small segment of the GW player population that enjoys this PvXwiki in many different ways, not just "your way or the highway." Queen of Spades 14:51, March 17, 2010 (UTC)

Uh
Why the move? -- Armond Warblade 00:08, 5 January 2008 (EST)
 * I had the same question. In-game, I've only ever seen it called "B/P" or "barrage/pet", not "B P" or "barrage pet", so the / should stay. &not; Wizårdbõÿ777  ( sysop ) 11:38, 5 January 2008 (EST)
 * Duh, PvX:NAME. For whatever stupid reason it said you could use ' and not /. Changed now, gonna move back. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 14:12, 5 January 2008 (EST)

Someone screwed with the monk
And I'm tired right now and don't feel like fixing it/deciding if it should be fixed. There are other edits in the way, too. &not; Wizårdbõÿ777  ( sysop ) 22:35, 7 January 2008 (EST)

WHERE DID YOU PUT THE BONE FIENDS ON THE MM? WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH THEM!? GIVE THEM BAAAAAACKKKKKKKKKKKKK........ *sob* I Am Jebus 20:54, 16 January 2008 (EST)


 * Bone fiends make for bad tanks. You know, the whole "not being frontliners" thing. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 00:40, 17 January 2008 (EST)

Fast Pull Builds
As I frequent tombs often, I believe that some other players and I have come up with an ideal team set-up for running it efficiently and quickly (we have done runs in a total of 29 minutes). We call our runs fast pull, and it is characterized by the larger then normal groups we aggro, the use of dual pullers (not every time-- but for fastest times, dual is suggested), and the efficiency of the builds (and players >.>).

Of course, to run fast pulls, the pullers must be practiced, along with the MM to know the positioning, and the rest of the group should be able to keep up. The builds we use, however, seem a lot more efficient then most of the norm builds used regularly by all of the variant players.

The group set up I would suggest is:

Ranger- Primary Puller

Ranger- Secondary Puller

Ranger-Primary Support (in charge of resurrecting dead party members if the Orders is dead and using the spirit Favorable Winds)

Ranger- Secondary Support (In change of using the spirit Favorable Winds if the primary support rangers Fw has died prematurely or the skill has not recharged yet.)

Spiteful Spirit Necro- Added DPS arsenal for killing faster

Orders Necro- Responsible primarily for energy for the monk, then for resurrecting dead party members, then for using Orders skills.

Minion Master

Monk

Tombs Puller

[build name="Splinter Puller" prof=range/ritua marksm=8+1 beastm=8+1 expert=10+1+1 channe=10][splinter weapon][barrage][dodge][Zojuns Haste][distracting shot][charm animal][comfort animal][I Am Unstoppable!][/build]

“I Am Unstoppable.” can be replaced by Flesh of my flesh but due to the fact that when a ranger is pulling underground wurms he is prone to being knocked down, the anti KD is nice to have.It is best that you have NO superiour runes, as taking alot of damage may occur, i suggest all survivour insignias and the highest vigour you can afford. Your bow should be requirment 9, as you will need the expertise alot more. energy should be ran at around 27 ish, try it out and enjoy ^^ D Magico 11:06, 1 July 2008 (EDT)

Support Ranger

[build name="Splinter Puller" prof=range/ritua marksm=7+3 beastm=8+1 expert=8+1 channe=12][splinter weapon][barrage][favorable winds][throw dirt][distracting shot][charm animal][comfort animal][Flesh of My Flesh][/build] For the support rangers, we’ve found that the spirit Winnowing is not necessarily needed, and as we are trying to go with all Ranger/Ritualists for the extra damage  Splinter Weapon provides. It is particularly difficult to spread attributes among all the required areas, and I feel that putting Wilderness Survival up just for Winnowing is not worth it. I also expressly disagree with the use of Troll Unguent because of the long cast time and again, the split in attribute points.

Another point about rangers is that since a recent nerf the made it impossible for the MM to exploit pet corpses, the ranger’s pet is needed more now then ever to act as a wall, and therefore, the constant use of comfort animal when the pet has died is essential, coupled with raised Beast Mastery to assure that the pet will not be a useless instant KO.

Another job for the support ranger is to splinter itself and other in required situations, also splintering the pullers will help kill faster and therefore make the trip easier and safer overall.

SS Necro

[build prof=Necromancer/Mesmer Curses=12+1+3 Soul=11+1 Inspiration=6][Mantra of Resolve][Spiteful Spirit][Arcane Echo][Defile Enchantments][Desecrate Enchantments][optional][Mark of Pain][Barbs][/build]

The SS is one of the main damage dealers of the group, causing the kills to be faster. Mark of Pain is to be echoed against larger groups (such as grasps) and coupled with the ranger’s Barrage /  Splinter Weapon combination, larger groups can go down in seconds.

Minion Master

Since MMing doesn’t really vary greatly, I will just show an example of a bar that might work best with fast pull.

MM with a Run skill

[build prof=Necromancer/Ranger Death=12+1+3 Soul=10+1 Wilderness=8][Animate Flesh Golem][Animate Shambling Horror][Animate Vampiric Horror][Animate Bone Horror][Animate Bone Fiend][Blood of the Master][Death Nova][Storm Chaser][/build]

Storm Chaser of course may be replaced with any other run skill, it is simply used to keep up to the puller and to get into position. The MM in fast pull is not expected to self-heal.

Orders

[build name="Orders Necromancer" prof=necro/monk bloodm=12+3+1 soulre=8+3 healin=8 prote=6][rebirth][mending][healing breeze][convert hexes][blood renewal][order of pain][Masochism][blood is power][/build]

This orders build is not to be run with 1hp. With Mending and  Blood Renewal the Orders should be able to keep their health up while using Bip. Healing Breeze can be replaced with another self heal in case the Orders should find his/herself getting low in health. I recommend running it with slightly lower then average health. Convert Hexes is to be used on any person under the effect of Empathy—as it will kill any barrager who attacks while enchanted with it. The orders is also to be expected to use Bip on any member or the group, for it is vital that the rangers receive energy enough to revive their pets, for the MM to make minions, and most importantly, for the monk to heal. As monking can be very draining on energy in fast pull, Bip is highly suggested for faster/more regeneration. A Major Rune can be brought to lower health for faster regen,which helps you bip alot more at one time,D Magico 20:47, 1 April 2008 (EDT)

Monk

[build prof=monk/elem healin=12+3 divine=12+2][optional][Healers Boon][Holy Haste][Dwaynas Kiss][Ethereal Light][Orison of Healing][Heal Party][Heal Other][/build]

The optional skill is meant to be replaced with either a rez skill under healing prayers ( Renew Life, Restore Life, or Resurrection Chant ) or a run skill, as keeping up to the puller may be difficult. Healer’s Boon is an absolute necessity for monking in Tombs, as damage is taken fast, and it is taken hard at times. Holy Haste is helpful also to speed up cast time.

All in all, even if the builds are not implemented in fast pull circumstances, I think they are more efficient then most builds I’ve had pinged at me as of late, and I do hope more people adopt this style as it is more fun, more successful, and shorter.

Chiyu 20:33, 1 April 2008 (EDT)Chiyu

It's true, I've been with Chi alot with these builds,i like the SS...numbers are awesome...Its alot less of a hassle and more fun,give it a try! D Magico 20:52, 31 January 2008 (EST)

This build isn't meant for pulling Tombs. It's for relatively fast and safe completion of the whole instance system, paired with group farming for green items. Also, when I see Mending on build other than 55 I think it's pretty fail. Dr4goN ( talk /pvxcontribs ) 07:20, 3 February 2008 (EST)

I REALLY doubt you've tried it,i go alot with Chi and we complete it with no prob at all,its fast safe and easier D Magico 14:38, 3 February 2008 (EST)


 * I agree with your point about this not being a "build for pulling tombs" but it is the ideal build used while fast pulling--and it is more effective on the whole in any circumstance, fast or slow. And mending is simply a suggestion, it does not have to be used. I would just reccomend it because of how much an Orders' health drops while using Blood Is Power, the extra health regeneration is really useful. Chiyu 15:18, 3 February 2008 (EST)

Deletion?
nobody uses this build anymore. nobody does tomes anymore as it does not supply any source of income and you do not get a end-of-dungeon chest form it because it is not considered a dungeon. also, unlike the uw/fow, it is not actually considerd and elite area and does not give you a reward for beating it other then some crappy victos weapons. this is the only place where this build is viable and nobody does it anymore.Klomi 23:27, 12 May 2008 (EDT)


 * That'd mean archive, actually, and I don't feel like slapping the tag on it right now. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 01:19, 13 May 2008 (EDT)


 * People still do Barrage/Pet in Urgoz Warren. Keep it. Selket Shadowdancer 03:48, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I still run B/P in tombs.--[[Image:Crossfire's Signature.JPG]] 11:07, 1 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Sadly, Ursan has taken it's place in fow, and b/p is no longer used in Tombs. Actualy Tombs have totally disappeared from maps. But I think with archiving this build, and making a new one from parts of it to be an organized build can save it.--Borotvalt 01:46, 26 July 2008 (EDT)
 * That's funny because I did Tombs with a B/P party a few days ago. Ursan is certainly more popular due to its easiness, but for non ursans this is still a good team build and should definitely be kept for those that want to play Guild Wars and not Bear Wars. I don't see the point in archiving this when this, not everything here on PvX is for PuGs. Selket Shadowdancer 09:20, 26 July 2008 (EDT)
 * The only problem in b/p is that the monk has a very hard job. I have redone the build as one on my user's subpages link. I want you to take a look to decide if that build is good or not.Borotvalt 03:02, 28 July 2008 (EDT)

Winnowing???
I've run the tombs numerous times with both fast and slow pullers but I've never seen anybody use Winnowing. This skill should not be listed as part of the Overview of this team build. This is further reinforced by the fact that Winnowing is only listed as a variant in the main text. Shadowcat 72.222.240.210 16:00, 9 December 2008 (EST)

Indeed, I would never go in a team who didn't bring winnowing. Less inportant than FW but still every little bit of damage counts 24.177.234.152 20:00, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Templates don't match
Well... First of all the templates listed above do not match with the rangers, monk and necros in the full descriptions. Which ones are the ones you should take with you if running this build? Secondly, the description of e.g. the barrage shouter doesn't match with the template that goes with it.

Could someone clean up this mess and make the templates and descriptions make sense? I have no idea which ones are the ones to use, so I can't do it myself. Thanks in advance. 84.85.197.187 14:25, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

the mm
no points in curses? with barbs etc.? lol?95.33.25.160 14:00, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Great Dwarf Weapon?
Umm... Where is Great Dwarf Weapon in the build? It should be listed at least in the optionals section. Splinter weapon GDW is a very good combo, ever tried it? I take it in every time I have at least 2 human players to swap it with each other. The added Knock down helps tons. 24.177.234.152 20:00, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

The Rt/N
Signet of creation was changed, any ideas for a variant?--Tyrael-- 16:03, September 1, 2009 (UTC)
 * whole build needs modernising and making less wordy and guide-like, once this has happened can be deleted. - <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Athrun <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Feya  - 15:11, January 28, 2010 (UTC)

lau goes theorycrafting
pewpewpew - <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Athrun <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Feya - 17:36, January 30, 2010 (UTC)

Lau's version > this. Abuses more PvE skills. Although, I am not truly satisfied with it, ill come up with some variant's to her variant soon. :> <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]   18:10, January 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * bump - <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Athrun <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Feya - 17:50, February 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * I wholeheartedly support Lau's brilliantastic theorycrafting for no reason I can thoroughly explain! K? --<font color="DarkGreen"> ~  <font color="DarkGreen">Short <font color="DarkGreen"> ~  18:10, February 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think you want to make laubabies. :o LessQQmorePewPew  18:13, February 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Besides the point. Please stay on topic to the build. K? --<font color="DarkGreen"> ~  <font color="DarkGreen">Short <font color="DarkGreen"> ~  18:19, February 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ups. Want SF to die so B/P is meta. :D *nostagic moment* LessQQmorePewPew  18:27, February 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * What about EoE instead of flesh of my flesh or feral aggression on the spirit ranger? Necromas 01:03, April 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * The MM's job is to make a wall to protect the team from 300+ (400+ after DW?) Eviscerates, not to DPS. For that reason, I suggest Minions or Horrors over Fiends. That said, I've not seen AotL in action since it got buffed, so it could be I'm freaking out over the 45s cd for no real reason.
 * The pets exist for the same reason, so I'm wondering why Feral Aggression is included over Otyugh's Cry or Call of Protection. Symbiotic Bond is an option for the brave, but I'll pass on it thanks to Empathy being everywhere.
 * With Life, Recuperation, FW, and Winn up, the lack of MBaS/spirit light makes me sad.
 * I'm sure there's a good reason for both Nightmare and Splinter weapon, but I'm not seeing it. If the idea is to splinter your allies and use nightmare and triple shot yourself, the orders should have GDW up on the three non-rit secondaries at all times (or close enough that it's not your job to lose dps to make up for it). If the idea is to use nightmare for single target damage, when is that necessary? With the number of interrupts the team has, fighting The Darkness shouldn't be an issue, and Chaos Wurms just aren't enough of a threat to warrant a skill slot (especially when you already have ward honor, BUH, Anthem Envy, FW, and Winn). Furthermore, if single target damage is required somewhere, you're passing up the opportunity to bring an awesome gimmicky BA-volley ranger.
 * Since no one on the team has a special "awesomeface when you crit" type of effect, GftE is a bit weak (since crits respect armor), though I can't think of a better skill off the top of my head.
 * Why does the team have zero hex removal and barrage (and triple shot) for an area with Empathy?
 * -- Armond {&#123;Bacon}} 03:46, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Last time I checked, Cure Hex removes hexes although I agree more is needed.
 * Anyway, Nightmare and Triple Shot are meant to be used in combination for single or leftover foes (not entirely sure why ~150 life steal is being portrayed as a bad thing). There's not really enough single targets to warrant a dedicated player but there are enough to justify using up two skills on two bars. You could see it as "too much" damage but with teams of PvErs tending not to run at maximum efficiency they need all the damage they can get. While I agree GtFE! isn't amazing, can't really think of anything better but it does have a majority up time on the plus side.
 * Pets already have 80AL and an inherent 33% damage reduction in PvE so I didn't think more protection was necessary, Life and Recup are there to help the effectiveness of walls as it is. Masochism+Aura just boosts the level and size of your minion army up to 20 and 12 respectively. You could argue that there's benefit to having a number of minions that won't get wiped out when foes drop AoE on the melee ones, whether it be for damage support or a second wall to protect backliners. - <font color="SteelBlue">Athrun <font color="Black">Feya [[Image:Lau_bfly.gif]] - 11:27, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Minion master is for heros, boom death nova spam.--<font color ="Blue">Ikimono <font color ="Brown">...And my Axe! [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png]] 11:42, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Wrong :p minion bomber is for heroes. Minion master can still be played pretty effectively by a human (it's just boring..) - <font color="SteelBlue">Athrun <font color="Black">Feya [[Image:Lau_bfly.gif]] - 12:42, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

...Arcane Orders
The current 'Arcane Orders' build on this barrage/pet page:

[build name="Arcane Orders Dervish" prof=dervi/necro myst=8+3+1 wind=10+1 blood=12][arcane zeal][order of pain][dark fury][blood ritual][mystic healing][vow of piety][watchful intervention][faithful intervention][/build]

Quoted helpful hints:

"*change Blood Ritual to Mark of Fury if yout think barragers will need additional adrenaline support."

"*change Blood Ritual to Mark of Fury if yout think barragers will need additional adrenaline support."

if yout think barragers will need additional adrenaline support

Really?

I motion to have this build removed, or at least changed so that it's a viable option. Dark Fury is next to useless here, and I believe that having an orders who can properly supply the monk with energy need not act as a stand in healer because the monk would actually be able to do his or her own job.

A BiP build should be added in its stead.

Chiyu 20:11, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

MM
should be OoU or a Bomber. MoP, Barbs and Weaken Armor would also be nice, tbh. ــѕт. мıкε  15:00, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * I forgot to put the SS bar up, it makes B/P groups faster, and Oou is optional, I'll fix it, [[Image:Breezysoul.jpg|19px]]<font color="Cyan">Breezy's Dixie Wrecked 15:19, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * It can't be either of those. OoU is for strong damage damage by players and bombers are strong damage by heroes. This is neither, this is trying to actually maintain minions for the purpose of being meatshields. - <font color="SteelBlue">Athrun <font color="Black">Feya [[Image:Lau_bfly.gif]] - 15:31, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * The entire page needs a rework. The problem is that no one's willing to do it because topk has been infested by assassins. -- Armond {&#123;Bacon}} 23:00, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Archive
No one runs b/p in topk anymore...mostly because there's no point to actually finishing the area. It's more efficient and profitable to just solo farm the ledge--TahiriVeila 16:23, September 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * A sad day it is. -- Jai  21:33, September 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Archive revert now because the first level can't be farmed as easy anymore? <font face="Broadway" color="#663854">Deadfalk Deadfalksig.jpg 12:27, 12 April 2011 (UTC)