User talk:Moloch/Build:Mo/Me Enhanced Charr Prophet

Power drain + Leech signet > Tease + power drain. Wasting an elite for energy management is very bad.Pika Fan 10:04, 13 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Archive:Mo/N Boon Prot Archive:Mo/Me Boon Prot both disagree Brandnew.  10:53, 13 September 2008 (EDT)
 * agrees. Furthermore, divine boon boosts healing considerably, and allows an exception in those cases to set a e.management elite. Furthermore, the e.management elite in Boon prot > tease. Fail less, get a better argument.Pika Fan [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]] 10:59, 13 September 2008 (EDT)


 * Difference being Lyssa's Aura is baed Energy management. It equals PDrain. -- ›[[Image:Many srs beans.png|Srs Bean Mafia.]] Srs Beans R Srs  11:00, 13 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Which supports my point. This build is bad. Sacrificing an elite slot for an e management elite especially when there are more effective alternatives like MoR is fail. Edit:If someone wanted an offensive energy management, pdrain/leech signet does a good enough of a job.Pika Fan [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]] 11:02, 13 September 2008 (EDT)
 * /agree. Brandnew.  11:05, 13 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Leech Signet is on a huge recharge. Tease gives insane energy management due to actually returning energy from every foe in the area. Moloch 11:07, 13 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Mantra of recall+pdrain or defender's zeal + castigation signet > tease. WoH monks that run p drain + leech signet>this because more effective heals means less spam. Less spam = less energy used = energy management.Pika Fan [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]] 11:11, 13 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Or drain enchant even. Brandnew.  11:13, 13 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Tease=Less damage output from foe=Less heals needed. In PvE Tease is superior to Mantra of Recall due to mob sizes and mob behavior. Defender's Zeal is awful. Moloch 11:14, 13 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Fail less? Your interrupt has a recharge of 15 seconds; interrupting mob foes every 15 seconds doesn't strike as very intimidating/damage reducing to me. Re:Defender's Zeal:Most PvE mobs attack due to the exact same mob behaviour you so kindly mentioned. Before you start arguing about skill efficiency, at least bother to try them out.Pika Fan [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]] 11:20, 13 September 2008 (EDT)
 * It's an area-wide interrupt. Excellent for cracking "monster spikes" if we're talking about, say, Flame Djinns. Defender's Zeal is not good because it relies on the foe hitting you which it shouldn't do, and also the foe generally dies too fast for the hex to return too much energy.
 * And yes, I have tried both DZ and CS in PvE, with pretty uninspiring results. As for that comment, somehow I seriously doubt YOU tried to use Tease in this manner. Throwing rocks in glass houses... Moloch 11:31, 13 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Oh really? If I wanted a healer I would go for a dedicated healer. If I wanted something that could interrupt and shutdown I would go for a dedicated mesmer/necro. Not something that tries to be both and fail so badly. Where were you when you tested this out? Post-searing NM?Pika Fan [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]] 11:59, 13 September 2008 (EDT)
 * I tested Defender's Zeal on a couple occasions in Realm of Torment HM. Tease was tested, ironically, in Sacnoth Valley HM against the Charr. Moloch 17:03, 13 September 2008 (EDT)
 * I love the way you miss out on the outcome of the testing. Leaving out important bits of info doesn't sit well with people who have sharp eyes.Pika Fan [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]] 17:22, 13 September 2008 (EDT)

Resetting indent: Throwing stones in glass houses again, considering you didn't even tell in which area you made your testing. I tested Defender's Zeal in a couple of areas in RoT (there's one with energy denial aspect, I forget which one) and it didn't help much with the hero monk's energy. Castigation Signet, however, is pretty good. I tested Tease in a successful vanquish of Sacnoth Valley with heroes and henchmen. Yes, a couple of deaths occured now and then, but after all, it was a vanquish with only one human player and it didn't take an insane amount of time. Moloch 18:48, 13 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Oh really? Location is redundant if mob information is given. I would be surprised if location had such a big factor when fighting the same mob(unless the location had its own environmental effect). Throwing stones in glass houses? I am sorry, but ignorance on your part did you a rather big unfavor. That statement only shows how inexperienced you are. Oh, and may I enquire about the rest of the party? (Pika here, at a friend's house while laughing at how *clever* that location > mob when there isn't any environmental effect)218.186.12.8 12:21, 14 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Initially you didn't tell me if this was HM or NM. You didn't tell me the mob composition (there are different types of Skelks you know... are you sure the mob composition was even the same?) So, yes, throwing stones still.
 * As for my setup for the vanquish, I honestly can't remember the specifics, but if it was anything like it usually is, it would be:
 * Me (N/A Mark of Pain Nuker)
 * Hayda (Motivation paragon)
 * Olias (Minion Bomber with additional support skills)
 * Dunkoro (about the build on the user page)
 * Two rangers
 * One warrior
 * One monk (the protector I think)
 * (Or possibly 1R+2W, not sure.)
 * Note that this is far more info than you've given me. Moloch 12:40, 14 September 2008 (EDT)

Oh, god, don't bring up DZ. It sucks so many balls... You need to waste 1.75 seconds (cast+aftercast) to get a little Energy back. The monster needs to stay alive for 3 seconds for a net return of 1 Energy, assuming the monster isn't kited, blocked nor blinded. Or for that matter, dead as fuck. -- › Srs Beans R Srs  11:34, 13 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Which shows how I think of this build. If something so lousy could be better than this, it must say a lot doesn't it?<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Pika <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Fan [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]] 12:00, 13 September 2008 (EDT)


 * DZ is much, much worse than Tease. Don't be bad. -- ›[[Image:Many srs beans.png|Srs Bean Mafia.]] <font color="#27408B">Srs Beans R Srs  12:39, 13 September 2008 (EDT)
 * If you had bothered to test both Tease and DZ, you will know what I mean.<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Pika <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Fan [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]] 12:52, 13 September 2008 (EDT)

Retested Tease vs Mantra of Recall and Tease versus p.drain+leech signet
Tease was used right at the start of battle by dunkoro, when energy was full. Also, when it was casted right at the start of battle, some foes were moving to target, which limits the "interruption of spikes" as so claimed by Moloch, who allegedly tested its efficiency.

Halfway during battle, tease recharged, but most foes that were still alive were widely spread out, and tease only interrupted 2-3 mobs on the average(thats 1-4 energy gain from tease on average), and furthermore, half of the foes have died already.

A particular example of how efficient tease is can be seen with your friendly neighbourhood skelks. A group of 6 skelks, no less, and within 20 seconds half my party wiped because dunkoro couldn't prioritise interrupts, which were meant to prevent spikes or so Moloch the bright spark claimed. Oh, and to add on, Dunkoro ran out of energy OMFGWTFBBQ how did that happen with the "Tease gives insane energy management.... Moloch 11:07, 13 September 2008 (EDT)"  and with my trusty vekk who uses blood ritual every so often???

Repeating the same mob BUT with power drain and mantra of recall proved much more effective. While dunkoro had lesser effective interrupts, he didn't run out of energy as fast as before. Yes, while he still did, it was way longer with the "Tease gives insane energy management.... Moloch 11:07, 13 September 2008 (EDT)" . 2 members of my party died QQ I wonder why....

Now I gave dunkoro WoH with the exact same mob, tossed out mantra of recall and gave him leech signet. This time no one died. Dunkoro had 10 energy left to spare after finishing off the mob. I am really puzzled now. There was lesser "It's an area-wide interrupt. Excellent for cracking "monster spikes" if we're talking about, say, Flame Djinns.......Tease gives insane energy management.... Moloch 11:07, 13 September 2008 (EDT)", yet my party didn't wipe, nor did dunkoro run out of energy. A miracle has happened! NOT.

Conclusion.

Please. Stop. Failing.

<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Pika <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Fan 12:49, 13 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Testing it on one specific area one time for each alternative proves nothing. Also I do wonder which the specific area and mode was. Moloch 17:03, 13 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Why would it prove nothing? A simple 6 skelks NM and a half party wipe already shows how bad it is. If dunkoro runs out of energy, your build fails to do what it was meant for-decent to so-called epic energy management.<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Pika <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Fan [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]] 17:15, 13 September 2008 (EDT)
 * I would like to know how the OTHER party configuration looked. If you manage to get half your party killed versus Skale in NM even with only 7 characters, chances are something is eminently subpar. Moloch 17:17, 13 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Skelk. Not Skale. Open eyes a little wider. I was running 2 eles, 2 monks 2 warriors 2 rangers. Balanced, for your info. I was the ele, and poor mhenlo couldn't keep up with a subpar member when the skelk started spamming scourge healing. Had absolutely no hitch once I switched to WoH. I wonder why.<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Pika <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Fan [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]] 17:29, 13 September 2008 (EDT)
 * I think you have the reason for the fail right there. You run four physicals, who likely bring nothing in the way of partywide defense. Two eles, and I guess it's about same stuff there (since you mentioned your Vekk is E/N).
 * If you run a multitasking build and expect it to behave well in a one-dimensional party, you will be disappointed. Moloch 18:13, 13 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Even so, it still does not explain the big difference between tease and WoH. Everything was constant except for dunkoro. The only logical explanation is Tease is bad. Even when dunkoro had mantra of recall instead there was a visible difference. Pika here, posting in a friend's house218.186.12.8 12:15, 14 September 2008 (EDT)
 * My conclusion is: Don't run this on a fucking hero cause they absolutely suck with Tease. Also: Maybe your party died cause you sucked. Skelks are absolute failcakes. -- ›[[Image:Many srs beans.png|Srs Bean Mafia.]] <font color="#27408B">Srs Beans R Srs  13:17, 13 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Oh? Didn't the creator of the build state that this build was designed for heroes? Also: If half the party wipes at failcakes, imagine better mobs? One change from tease > WoH made such a big difference, yes?<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Pika <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Fan [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]] 13:56, 13 September 2008 (EDT)


 * I hadn't checked the build until you noted you used it on a hero up there. And the change from Tease -> WoH is so notable because WoH is a slightly overpowered powerheal. Duh >.>" -- ›[[Image:Many srs beans.png|Srs Bean Mafia.]] <font color="#27408B">Srs Beans R Srs  14:14, 13 September 2008 (EDT)
 * WoH is overpowered you say, SO WHY THE FUCK DON'T YOU USE IT! - Misery  Is  Friendly  [[image:Misery Dog obaby.gif|19px]] 14:26, 13 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Which was exactly my point. As misery stated, if it is slightly overpowered, why not use it? Why cheat yourself of a better build just because it looks different?<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Pika <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Fan [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]] 14:37, 13 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Also, if you're comparing Mantra of Recall vs. Tease, then you have no comprehension of similar skills. Outside of that, Monk elites are too good to pass up, unless you're running Boonprot. --[[Image:GoD_Hammer_and_Sickle.jpg|19px]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps;font-family:Verdana;border-style:solid;border-width:2px;border-color:red;background-color:gold;padding:0px 5px 1px 6px;"> Guild  of   Deals   12:34, 14 September 2008 (EDT)