Build talk:Team - 7 Hero Mercenary Mesmerway

Discussion
It's good to have this on a separate page so vetting is possible on the other page. Some points I'd like to discuss can be found below. --Krschkr (talk) 13:40, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Name
Not so happy with the name. The team is relatively low on support, so having that in the name is misleading. Blood is power is nice, but not the backbone of the general team idea. Using blood is power as the name giving parameter is a) misleading b) not distinguishing this team at all from all the other teams that use a blood is power healer and c) troublesome as Misty claims that builds of this name are his work and property. Here's a list of builds currently featured on PvX that make use of a blood is power healer – it should suffice to show that blood is power is a pretty bad element to pick to distinguish a team from another. As the name is quite meaningless right now, rather misleading and having another issue we should find an alternative. It's just another variant of a mesmerway, but with mercenary heroes, so any generic mesmerway name would do. Two suggestions of imo more fitting and less troublesome names: It would be good to find an agreeable name before we start linking the page everywhere. --Krschkr (talk) 13:40, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Build:Team - 5 Hero BiP Caster Support
 * Archive:Team - 5 Hero BiP Melee Support
 * Build:Team - 5 Hero Triple Energy Surge
 * Build:Team - 7 Hero Defend Droknar's Forge Melee – which features more support
 * Build:Team - 7 Hero Keystone Discordway
 * Build:Team - 3 Hero Rescue at Minister Cho's Estate
 * Build:Team - 5 Hero BiP Melee Elementalist Support – which at least is ripe with elements that support the player's performance to justify that name
 * Build:Team - 6 Hero Dual Melee – which is more supportive (obviously, it has to be)
 * Build:Team - 7 Hero Beginner Team
 * Build:Team - 7 Hero BiP Caster Support
 * Build:Team - 7 Hero BiP Melee Support
 * Build:Team - 7 Hero Fevered Dreams – also much more support than the builds with support in their name
 * Archive:Team - 7 Hero Legioway
 * Build:Team - 7 Hero Paneptitude
 * Archive:Team - 7 Hero Quintuple Energy Surge
 * Build:Team - 7 Hero RoJway
 * Archive:Team - 7 Hero Triple Energy Surge
 * Triple Energy Surge Mercenary/Triple Energy Surge Mercway
 * These three mesmers are, next to the widespread BiP+ST backline, the core of the team. As seen in the variants section the fourth mesmer and the support ritualist are the first heroes to switch out if needed or desired, but we're generally not touching the first three mesmers. To distinguish it from the other triple energy surge page with 7 heroes that doesn't use mercenaries the mercenary bit is useful for distinguishing.
 * Mercenary Mesmerway
 * A mesmerway with mercenary access is most likely going to end up at either something very similar to this current setup or an extended paneptitude (+2 energy surge mesmers) depending on player preference. As paneptitude is an at least somewhat established name and less long than triple energy surge simply calling this mesmerway should do.
 * I am in no way tied to "BiP Support Mercway," I just used that for starters because this build began as the mercenary variant to the "BiP Melee/Caster Support" bars. I think mesmerway is more fitting than a "Triple Energy Surge" name because this build is more along the lines of "run as many mesmers as possible" and not tied the number 3 (Panic variant runs 2, aggressive variant runs 4). 7 Hero Mercenary Mesmerway, or simply 7 Hero Mesmerway both seem fine. Xanshiz (talk) 08:54, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Then let's move it to Mercenary Mesmerway unless anyone voices objections against that name within the next few days. --Krschkr (talk) 22:11, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Fine by me, although I was leaning towards 7 Hero Mesmerway. --Xanshiz (talk) 00:23, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Equipment: Armor vs. Energy Insignias
We shouldn't be recommending radiant insignias and instead suggest armor insignias. So I'd like to switch the insignias to prodigy's, tormentor's, shaman's and blessed. --Krschkr (talk) 13:40, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Whenever the additional armor reduces incoming damage below 10% of a character's health points, a shelter charge is saved.
 * During shelter downtimes incoming damage is reduced significantly when using armor insignias – and that's exactly the time when you want extra armor.
 * Armor respective damage is the most relevant damage source in PvE. Other than PvE foes one's own team doesn't natively have very high armor ratings. Low armor ratings combined with foes having 20 in their damage attributes combined with the level difference factor that applies to armor respective damage makes armor insignias very valuable.
 * The insignias would reduce damage by usually 16% to 23% depending on the insignias available to the respective hero.
 * Example: A terrorweb dryder's fireball@20 deals 147 damage times (2^3/40)^10 which results in 247 damage. This will hit a target with radiant insignias unfiltered during shelter downtimes. A +10 armor insignia like tormentor's will reduce it by 40 to 207, a +15 armor insginia like shaman's by 57 to 190. These numbers quickly add up as you keep receiving damage. With armor insignias you need less healing, allowing to bring additional offense or utility.
 * Additional maximum energy does not solve energy management issues. As soon as you hit 0 energy you're dry, whether it means that you have 0/40 or 0/50 energy. The only bars which really benefit from more maximum energy are usually player builds, or arguably necromancer heroes; of which there's only one in this team which has survival and not energy concerns.
 * The amount of energy heroes have with a staff or focus (40 to 42) gives them enough leeway to make use of their energy management and have plenty of fire power before they have used up their energy the first time.
 * This is a topic that has been discussed on the guild wars global discord. While armor is usually superior, the all caster + ST meta makes it unclear. Obviously a fireball dealing 247 damage versus 190 damage doesn't matter when shelter is up, so the only two cases where it is important are 1) reducing damage below the shelter threshold, and 2) cases when shelter is down, neither of which are particularly common. On the flip side, a deeper energy pool is valuable -- 1 second into the fight, the ineptitude could use both shouts and ineptitude, being at 10/40 energy, which is a lot worse than 20/50. A deeper energy pool allows for a larger buffer for BiP, and in practice reduces the time heroes spend low on energy. This was tested in the case of ST -- at one point, spirits gift was considered being dropped for signet of creation, as tests showed that the ST spent less time out of energy as a result. However, the tests weren't done with radiant runes, which turned out to be an important factor, as subsequent testing showed that the use of radiant runes gave the ST more time to get a BiP before running out of energy. Overall, the consensus was to stick with radiant and rely on the ST for protection. I'm open to discussion and further testing, and for now I'm listing the armor insignias as a defensive alternative. Xanshiz (talk) 08:54, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Due to the special way communing prots work it might make sense to have radiant insignias on them. How exactly did armor and maximum health ratings affect aggro? Since the prot's weapon is hardly important a +HP weapon could actually be kept alongside radiant insignias to keep aggro away from it if health is the main determining factor, to avoid that the hero is under attack and kiting instead of replacing spirits when possible. Similarly the fiend MM could well benefit from the additional base energy due to the massive hit bone fiends cause and a better chance to make good use of the erratic soul reaping energy gain. But I really don't see this for mesmers. Their energy pools are large enough with armor insignias to make good use of their energy management. The Me/P having energy issues should rather be tackled by fixing that build (= not use command shouts on mesmers) than by sacrificing long-term stability for a better headstart. Part of using armor insignias is to gain more reliability at the cost of a slightly lower ceiling, which I think is more recommendable to most players. Also, as mentioned further below, it can allow to switch out the ritualist healer for a more offensive character. --Krschkr (talk) 22:26, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I prefer to stick with the results of the testing that has been done unless evidence suggests otherwise (i.e. showing the mesmers spend similar amounts of time low on energy regardless of radiant or not). Health does determine aggro, so keeping the ST at higher health is a benefit. Also, the Me/P has been shown to be effective from testing it on both this bar and the BiP melee/caster support bars, and there is no other convenient slot for the second copy of fall back without taking an mm (which I don't want to do). And a higher energy pool is not just a better head start -- it allows more leeway for receiving BiP, and testing has confirmed this to be meaningful over extended fights. I prefer to leave the solo healer as a variant rather than on the main bar. --Xanshiz (talk) 00:23, 23 August 2019 (UTC)
 * And I prefer to stick with the results of the testing that I've done unless evidence suggests otherwise. --Krschkr (talk) 00:17, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
 * For now, I'll list both as equals while I do more testing. --Xanshiz (talk) 02:54, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I have come to agreement that prodigy's tends to outperform radiant. I found that with the current iteration, energy management is sufficiently stable that the "buffer" provided by a deeper energy pool became less important. --Xanshiz (talk) 20:56, 20 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Consensus! What a lovely moment. --Krschkr (talk) 01:11, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

Equipment: Weapon Selection
The domination magic mesmers should use staves rather than 40/40 sets. The 40/40 gives these traits: A staff gives these traits: As all of these 3 mesmers feature spells which's recharge time you'd want to reduce it makes sense to drop 16 percentage points of chance for reduced recharge times of domination magic spells in favour of gaining 20% chance for all other spells. The +30hp which allow for more inspiration magic are a nice bonus. Also, the communing prot: +60hp are quite pointless, you could instead use a 40/20/20 as you currently run both boon of creation and spirit's gift. --Krschkr (talk) 13:40, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
 * 36% chance to reduce recharge time of domination magic spells.
 * 36% chance to reduce casting time of domination magic spells.
 * 12 energy.
 * 20 chance to reduce recharge time of any spells, including domination magic, inspiration magic, fast casting, mesmer no attribute and random utility spells.
 * 36% chance to reduce casting time of domination magic spells.
 * 10 energy.
 * Staff wrapping of choice, so probably either +30 hp (=use a superior rather than major fast casting rune, which allows +2 inspiration magic compared to now for the cost of 5hp) or +1 domination magic which is not really worth it.
 * These are points that were also raised in the discord discussion, going back and forth between 40/40 and staves. Unfortunately, it is really hard to compare +2 inspiration magic to 16% chance to reduce recharge time. I don't consider the fact that the staff reduces recharge of any spells to be particularly important, since the majority of the bar is dom, only featuring 1 or 2 inspiration spells which are relatively low impact due to their significantly reduced attribute investment. 40/40 provides +10 hp and +2 energy, which is minor but not negligible. The most direct way I could find to compare the two is this: a staff lets you take 1 extra point in fast casting (by offsetting the health loss), which is 5% reduced casting time and 3% reduced recharge time, compared to 40/40 which is 16% chance to half recharge time, or 8% reduced recharge time. The recharge time nature of fast casting is not continuous (breakpoints at 10, 13 FC, etc.), so this isn't a universally accurate comparison, but the point is the two alternatives are very close. In this case, I don't see +2 inspiration magic to be worth 16% reduced chance to half recharge time when we are only taking 1-2 inspiration magic spells.
 * I don't consider +60hp to be pointless on the communing prot, as it offsets the health cost of two superior runes. Both enchantments are already maintainable (making enchantment duration less valuable), and cast very infrequently (making cast time less valuable). Xanshiz (talk) 08:54, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Either way we're going to have 13 fast casting, so the base recharge time of 20, 15, 12 and 10 seconds recharge mesmer spells will go down to 12, 9, 7 and 6 seconds. With the HCT triggers they're reduced to 6, 5, 4 and 3 seconds. We can see that the impact of the triggering on spells with a base recharge time of 12 and 15 is lower than on the other recast times. Sadly those are energy surge, mistrust and cry of frustration. The largest impact is on the spells with the longest recharge time (obviously), which happen to be both inspiration magic spells. They aren't just there for energy, but also the utility they provide. We want random rupts on any spells from power drain and the removal of enchantments by drain enchantment, and if we can get these utility effects more frequently, that's better. I'd argue that a 20% chance on these two spells is worth a bit more than the extra 16% chance on domination magic for that very reason. If you disagree with this you should consider to drop inspiration magic to 3 and power drain for guilt. Guilt@16 provides as much energy as power drain@7 (which is your inspiration magic to chose alongside 40/40 sets) and this change would allow to run 15 fast casting. Then it'd be an obvious choice to go for 40/40 sets. With the then reached 15 fast casting guilt has a recharge time of 14 seconds, which is just 2 seconds more than power drain, although of course the provided utility is different and the interaction with energy surge potentially problematic. More reliable against offensive foes especially with short activation time spells, useless against non-offensive spells and not that great against single high health bosses unless using aneurysm. Drain enchantment could stay for the provided utility, as with 3 vs. 7 inspiration magic it only loses 2 points of energy gain and is recharged a second faster.
 * About enchantments on the communing prot: The rationale of +20% enchantment duration is to have the hero recast the enchantments more infrequently. That way the risk of having the hero lag behind between fights is reduced and the time the hero spends unable to act during combat is cut down aswell. Although I'd in fact want to drop spirit's gift as it's not maintained outside of combat and can thus lead to bad combat initiation with a 1.75 seconds downtime of the hero which could've been spent creating a protective spirit instead. --Krschkr (talk) 22:50, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Guilt has a significantly longer casting time, the effect is not guaranteed (big), cannot be used reactively, and risks making ESurge not deal damage. I disagree with the largest impact on high recharge spells because low recharge time spells can be cast more frequently and thus get the benefit more frequently -- the math says it is all equivilent in the end. Also, as you brought up, higher HP on the communing prot reduces aggro, and it runs two superiors making its base health the lowest. --Xanshiz (talk) 00:23, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Team Composition: Backline Efficiency
[build prof=Necromancer/Ritualist BloodMagic=9+1+3 SoulReaping=9+2 RestorationMagic=12][Blood is Power][Optional][Signet of Lost Souls][Mend Body and Soul][Spirit Light][Spirit Transfer][Protective Was Kaolai][Life][/build] With spirit transfer on the BiP and just one utility skill using the 440 or 400hp rune setup the BiP becomes sufficiently efficient to be the only healer in the team. That way you can drop the restoration ritualist in the caster version of the team for either a minion master (which is a convenient way to get IMS and SYG without mutilating mesmers) or another mesmer. For the melee version you can bring some more utility skills on the ritualist instead of the restoration magic, like judge'd insight for hammer, scythe and possibly axe users, smite hex/condition for a bit of cleaning, lamentation for a bit of extra damage and another hex for unnatural signet. Works reliably with the whole team between ~400 and 465 health points and using armor insignias. --Krschkr (talk) 13:40, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm worried about the direction this change would take the team in terms of only running one healer. I'd prefer to keep two restoration characters mainbarred with offensive variants (for instance, quad esurge caster variant). I'd be OK with dropping enfeebling blood, but the extra layer of defense can be useful because it often brings auto attacks below the threshhold for shelter to proc. I'd also be OK with taking spirit transfer over ghostmirrors (or any other heal), but I preferred the efficiency of ghostmirrors (spirit transfer is expensive and could risk draining communing spirits). I'm not sure I'm convinced that taking resto off the SoS (melee variant) would result in significantly increased damage. Heroes use judge's insight poorly, smite hex/condition are kinda bad, and lamentation is underwhelming. I used to run a 12 channeling 12 smiting SoS (back when I ran two n/rt's), and I was never super impressed by the damage output on GWToolbox from the SoS on that variant. However, I wouldn't be completely opposed to make an offensive variant of the melee version by replacing resto on the SoS with more offensive spells, but I don't think the tradeoff is worth it. The caster bar gains an entire ESurge mesmer by removing its resto, whereas the melee version would gain half a bar of mediocre spells.
 * I definitely do not want to take a minion master. Minions are good, but mesmers are better, so any time I would take a minion master I would prefer a mesmer instead. Xanshiz (talk) 08:54, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Enfeebling blood would only be gone for the melee build version, and even there it could be picked over blood bond when playing without minions if you keep the second restoration magic source: You have more than enough healing without blood bond, so the protection is going to be more effective at keeping people healthy. You don't mind a bit of shuffling, do you? So how about this 6 damage variant?

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 * This would be worth a try for minion haters and could still bring panic in areas where extra shutdown is desired. Remember that having both melee and caster version on this page is not set in stone, as we can still split it on two pages if the two versions deviate enough from each other. We'll have to test all these variants against each other eventually, with and without minions, to determine what's best and what's most recommendable. --Krschkr (talk) 23:07, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't see what that variant accomplishes. You swap command and smiting between the SoS and the ineptitude, and lose resto in the process with very little compensation. Blood bond is still nice to have on a melee build even if it isn't always strictly necessary. Having the BiP as the sole healer usually works, but in the event that the BiP goes down, the entire team collapses instantly, so I prefer the insurance offered by this variant. It can withstand heavy pressure and still boasts impressive damage due to the mesmer midline. I think you underestimate the amount of testing that has already gone into these builds -- these have been worked on, tested, and refined since the beginning of May, but have never been submitted due to all the drama that had been going on with the non mercenary variant. --Xanshiz (talk) 05:08, 23 August 2019 (UTC)
 * It provides a healthier illusion mesmer energy management (although it certainlty still isn't great with the &minus;20 energy per minute from SoH it's not as bad as up to 60 energy per minute consumed by fall back and SYG), one additional enchantment removal, an additional hex removal for the midline which is useful as heroes use shatter hex as a damage skill. That's what you'd get when dropping unneeded healing.
 * Also, I'm not doubting that testing went into these builds. I've just grown sceptic of the results that discord server's populace produces. --Krschkr (talk) 00:22, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
 * One important thing to note is that the energy costs from the illusion tree are rather minor (since clumsiness was ditched long ago). Three copies of shatter hex at a 6 second cool down is already usually overkill. Never Surrender is bad, and that many attributes in command is usually unnecessary. One problem with that variant is the SoS has "nothing to do" for most of the fight except cast splinter every 5 seconds. It would often end up wanding instead of casting useful spells. --Xanshiz (talk) 02:54, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I ran the pawned code, this made me double check whether or not I was in NM or HM during HM WoC Cleansing quests, such as Rhea Crater, Zen Daijun, When Kappa Attack. (Too?) powerful for NM, very effective in the HM WoC quests, this is my personal experience. --Darg tv (talk) 01:25, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the slow replying, but I'm quite busy and don't have as much time for PvX at my disposal as I'd like. I'll join the testing as soon as that changes. Until then, if you really want more healing and are afraid of the ritualist doing too few in the Rt/P variant, you could of course make a three attribute hybrid out of it, either with two healing skills (OAmkIymZYSOz1Ej5NZmSzJ3OuGD) or just one + never surrender (OAmkIymaISKz1Ej5NZmTOf8OuGD). The benefits of the changes remain about the same, except that the ritualist's energy management might be a bit off if using two healing skills.
 * And @Darg tv, I doubt that you did When Kappa Attack in hard mode. --Krschkr (talk) 00:50, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

I went to test a couple of build variants as noted here. My first impression from doing just that one dungeon, cathedral of flames, is that a slightly tweaked variant of above paw*ned² template code is both more stable and faster than the build page's current content (tested version: Main bars). I'll have to do additional testing for a proper comparison (i.e. using the testing route) but this is a first impression. --Krschkr (talk) 00:37, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I'll be sure to try out the variant when I get the opportunity, but first I want to discuss the results you obtained. First, on the project page, you noted a significant 45s speedup with quad mes balanced over mercenary mesmerway. The reason why this is surprising is because it looks more defensive than mercenary mesmerway, since it drops two damage dealing elites (Esurge -> Panic, and SoS -> Incoming). The most likely hypothesis I can come up with to explain the discrepancy is that fewer spells (and lack of a bundle) on the SoS results in more casts of splinter weapon. If this is the case, I would suggest trying out the "Melee Players SoS Prot Alternative" variant, since protection prayers spells tends to be less cast-time intensive than restoration magic. If you think there is a different explanation, I'd be curious to know what.
 * Next, main obvious difference is shifting command off of the ineptitude. Since the SoS ends up taking up the command role, we are left with a solo healer backline. You have shown dislike of putting command on the ineptitude in the past, so I wanted to try and justify it. Since nobody runs clumsiness on the ineptitude anymore, the bar is actually rather cheap energy-wise. Wandering eye, accumulate pain, and signet of clumsiness are cheap, arcane conundrum provides decent energy management, and ineptitude is fairly high CD. As a result, if you want to slot command onto a hero while trying to sacrifice as little as possible, the ineptitude is a good candidate. The shouts are energy-extensive, but if you watch the heroes energy usage, it tends to be fine when running with a BiP and rarely sits at 0. Instead, you run filler skills such as epidemic (next to useless, considering the only condition is one copy of deep wound) and drain enchantment (solid utility, but rather uninspiring at 2 inspiration).
 * One side note -- you agree that it's good to avoid putting resses on healers since if a party member dies we don't want the healer to stop healing in order to res. You say the ST is an exception, because prot spirits are still active when casting a resurrection spell. While this might sound true in principle, in reality, a large number of instances of wipes are due to the ST spirits dying. If prot spirits die and that results in a death, I would much, much prefer my ST to recast spirits over spending time casting a resurrection. 4.75 additional seconds without recasting shelter/displacement is huge if the team is getting hit hard.
 * I'd be curious to see how your results compare when running the SoS Prot variant. Furthermore, I'd be interested to see how the comp fares in more challenging areas (such as WoC) where the solo backline might get dicier.--Xanshiz (talk) 04:08, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * As I said, this is but a first impression. It'll take more tests in more areas for a solid opinion. I'd really love to have repeatable WoC quests so I could do WoC tests properly. I'll probably go for Gowan Chobak and friends, as usual, although that's a biased test against minion teams.
 * Speed: It's taken me three months to finally upload the video, so my memories of this are a bit sketchy. I do remember that I did a few warmup runs and then ~3-5 dungeon runs per team. The stability result isn't just about the done run, but the general impression from all. I've kept a video of a representative run for each team – as it happens they're all quick. I think part of the reason why this variant was faster is that the panic mesmer allowed more aggressive play than energy surge + ritualist off-heals. "Stand Your Ground!" also has a slightly longer uptime which may help. I have three more videos, one for each of the other tested variants. If you want to have a look at any of them, likely the mercenary mesmerway, just let me know and I'll upload them for you. Maybe you'll see something that'll explain the results.
 * I'm not happy with epidemic either and will try hex eater signet (@2+1) and mirror of disenchantment in the future. Power return is also an alternative. This'll all have to happen with energy management in mind. In theory smite hex is also an option but the AI doesn't use it as well as shatter hex of which there already are a couple of spicy copies. I'm not so worried about drain enchantment@2 though. Compared to your runes that's a loss of 3 points of energy gain. I see it as an enchantment removal with a bit of energy/health gain on top.
 * One could drop the ST's resurrection but there are two issues: (A) You'll likely have to kick one drain enchantment from a mesmer. (B) There are no good skills to pick on the ST, except maybe power drain@6-8? Don't want anything that introduces worse hybrid AI issues than those given the experience I have with offensive support skills (splinter weapon) or offensive non-reactive skills (enfeebling blood, weaken armor) that caused far more instability for me than flesh.
 * I'll try to add the SoS Prot variant in future tests. --Krschkr (talk) 11:11, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm not really a fan of single healer teams, but ignoring that, I still think you made some odd choices. This is how I would do it: put FoMF on the inept and give him PDrain instead of Epidemic/Mirror. Epidemic is useless, and so is Mirror. Add SoH to ST. ZStepmother (talk) 13:14, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Enchantment removal is not useless. Strength of honour on the communing prot has been avoided to further stabilize its energy management and to avoid that the hero has to reapply the enchantment mid-combat. --Krschkr (talk) 14:08, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I never said enchantment removal is useless. Mirror is. You already have 3 copies of drain enchantment, which is enough to deal with the annoying enchants. SoH is not a problem for the energy on the ST, and I don't think that most people focus on recasting SoH that much. I think most people already dislike running it in the first place. The ST can definitely handle SoH, and the inept gets better energy (more inspiration+pdrain) and you gain another rupt (pdrain). It's a pretty clear winner for me ZStepmother (talk) 18:25, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Regardless, this all hinges on a consensus to drop the second set of resto/prots. Is this something we really want to do? Does a swap ESurge -> Panic really make up for losing a healer/prot? If so, I would also advocate for slotting SoH on the ST, since with signet of creation, energy is not an issue (unless BoC is stripped, in which case it relies on BiP). Also, never surrender is a pretty last resort filler skill, as about 80% of the time is is only active on the BiP. This is another argument to keep it as is -- bloodsong, never surrender, epidemic/pain of disenchantment -- these are all weaker filler skills that could be replaced with stronger skills (like spirit bond and shield of absorption) if we shuffle things differently. --Xanshiz (talk) 21:25, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I finally found the time to do several runs comparing three different setups: the current setup (SoS Resto), the prot variant, and the proposed modified setup with the Rt/P. I ran an A/any dagger spammer through Cathedral of Flames HM (asuran scan for blind, no SY). I pretty much played purely c-space, no precasting ST spirits, no hero micro (except for SoH).
 * Prot run 1: ~19 minute clear, 5 player deaths, 4 hero deaths
 * Resto run 1: ~19 minute clear, 7 player deaths, 1 hero death
 * Prot run 2: ~18 minute clear, 4 player deaths, 15 hero deaths
 * Resto run 2: ~17:30 minute clear, 3 player deaths, 0 hero deaths
 * There was a learning curve since I am less familiar with the dungeon. Resto was without a doubt safer when the whole team was under fire, and deaths were pretty much all "random one-shots" as opposed to crumbling under pressure. Prots were worse in extended fights.
 * I gave 6 different attempts running the proposed alternate with the solo resto backline + Panic + dual shouts on the ritualist, and all 6 attempts I wiped. The BiP alone could not sustain the entire team. --Xanshiz (talk) 23:30, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Your result that the team which was fastest and nearly the most stable for me wiped in every attempt is puzzling. Can you provide a video of a good successful run (resto/prot, idm which) and one of the failed runs with panic? I'd like to analyze what's going on that we get drastically different results. --Krschkr (talk) 14:41, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Resto run: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqJiDUiHK_U&
 * Prot run: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4ws1H8UUwQ
 * Random wipe (for this one I tried a slight modification of SoH on the ST): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHgUQHkwhK8
 * The impression I got from the solo backline was that once things started to go south, it often resulted in a wipe. Whereas with the Resto variant I could be a complete idiot and still be fine. --Xanshiz (talk) 19:16, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I should be able to look into these later this evening. --Krschkr (talk) 19:18, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I have been doing a few CoF runs for the past few hours to do some caster team testing, and from what I've seen, having 2 copies of PwK is very welcome in areas with AoE. I have a hard time believing that a team with only 1 healer performs better in CoF, than a team with 2. I've skipped over a few parts of your video, and I notice that you flag heroes much more than I do (I dont flag at all in these tests, cause thats more like the average player), perhaps that has something to so with the difference in performance? A team with some prots will do much better at keeping the player alive when he is the one tanking most of the hits, as opposed to just running in and having the entire party take their share of dmg. Even without prots, this playstyle negates the weak points of a team with only 1 healer, since you as the player tank the initial AoE spells, and the initial spike of the groups in CoF is quite hard. ZStepmother (talk) 19:58, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

Page Content: Other Party Sizes
So far testing has always shown that simply removing party members from a team for other party sizes does not mean that the full team's effectivity is preserved for smaller party sizes, especially for party size 4. To allow for meaningful vetting these variants should go on separate pages. --Krschkr (talk)
 * That sounds reasonable. I am less familiar with standard PvX protocol, so I will do that. One potential worry is this -- a build called "3 Hero Mesmerway" or "3 Hero Mercenary Mesmerway" seems like an odd name for a bar that would have one mesmer and not require mercenaries. I want to emphasize that this build can be adapted to lower party sizes by just removing certain heroes (meaning you don't need to regear or change templates every time you enter a new area), so I want to make sure that a page of the aforementioned name could exist before making it. Xanshiz (talk) 08:54, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't think they'd have to have the same name as this, especially as the lower party size variants will be mercenary free. It's sufficient to have the other party size in the see also section and the very clear communication in the variants section that certain other teams in PvX can be seen as closely familiar builds for other party sizes should do the rest. Note that almost the same build as your suggested caster version for party size 6 already exists in Build:Team - 5 Hero Triple Energy Surge so you should link to that (and tweak it appropriately if needed). I didn't see any too closely related melee build for that party size so making a new one with your suggestion seems fine, although there's still the question which name it should have. Dual Mesmer/Dual Energy Surge?
 * For party size 3 I could archive Archive:Team - 3 Hero Melee Support in its current, abandoned form if you want to take the name. Did you test the other party size 4 teams on PvX? Might be a better alternative to trying to preserve 3 heroes from a party size 8 team. --Krschkr (talk) 09:53, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
 * My primary goal is to portray the fact that you can adapt this build to lower party sizes without needing to change the bars. Also, the melee/caster variants for lower party size are very similar to each other (1 bar change), so I really think that they should exist on the same page (as the 8 man does). I think it's worth making a "5/3 hero mesmerway" not with the intention of showing a new, novel idea, but rather as a way to show how to "chop" the bars (unless this could somehow exist on the main page). You are correct that this 6 man caster would be very similar to the 3 esurge 6 man, but unless you are open to adding a 2 ESurge melee variant to that page, I don't see a sufficiently simple way to not make new pages. --Xanshiz (talk) 00:23, 23 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't disagree with new pages or simply overhauling old pages unless that means to duplicate the content from other ones, so that's not the issue. But I still think that you're not achieving best results by trying to rescue a build core of this team into party size 4. A dedicated, optimized team for these areas is the way to go. --Krschkr (talk) 00:29, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Ok, that sounds reasonable. I've done that here: 5 Hero Mesmerway --Xanshiz (talk) 02:54, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Page Content: Zei Ri or Single Mercenary Variant
As this page is for mercenary users we should instead link to the build page without mercenary heroes to cover that section:
 * If you only have access to Zei Ri or a single Mercenary Hero, you can resort to the melee version of this team.

I.e. like that. --Krschkr (talk) 13:54, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
 * This does not solve the caster situation when having access to only one mercenary, which is very important. Furthermore, I prefer this melee variant (with only Zei Ri) to the 7 Hero Triple Energy Surge variant, as you gain a BSurge for blind and a second set of restoration magic. I definitely do not think this page should have a non-mercenary variant, but I think it is reasonable to have a Zei Ri or Single Mercenary Variant considering how incredibly minor of a change it would be. Xanshiz (talk) 08:54, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Heh, drop the ritualist healer and the single mercenary issue is solved for casters. ;) If you prefer that blinding surge variant you should discuss it on that team's talk page. I really feel it doesn't belong on this one. --Krschkr (talk) 23:09, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
 * The blinding surge variant requires Zei Ri (or a merc), and the allowance of one free slot allows significant changes in the structure of the team. I see no reason to deviate from what I have here considering how simple the change is. Keep in mind, the BSurge command has been shown to be effective in replacing the inept when testing the BiP melee/caster support bars. --Xanshiz (talk) 00:23, 23 August 2019 (UTC)
 * A triple energy surge team for melees that works within the parameters of allowing Zei Ri or one mercenary already exists, which is the issue I'm pointing out. If you think that the blinding surge variant is superior to the one presented there, you should discuss it on the existing page's talk page. --Krschkr (talk) 00:32, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Other: Hero AI Mode
I found the midline heroes to work more reliable using the aggressive setting. --Krschkr (talk) 13:40, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
 * This isn't something I've discussed in the discord, nor is it something I have tried extensively myself. I'll add that change and try it out. Xanshiz (talk) 08:54, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I have been experimenting with aggressive, but have lately found myself keeping my heroes on guard. I find that the main advantage of aggressive is that heroes won't wait for enemies to engage the party before attacking. However, with aggressive, midline heroes often separate from the party, particularly when pulling. --Xanshiz (talk) 20:53, 20 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Then I guess we've found a large difference between out playing styles, as I don't pull. I always engage with the entire team from near-aggro-range where your described behaviour is particularly important. --Krschkr (talk) 01:12, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

Health with +3 and +2 runes
What's up with the insane -60hp on some of the mesmers. Is it really worth it that much to have +2 fast casting on domination mesmers? Just genuinly asking, as I've never seen hero builds require this much sacrifice to HP, even with a Superior Vigor rune. GamingReviewsYT (talk) 07:34, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
 * The health loss is definitely worth it. You have Shelter to keep you alive, and that 35 hp loss won't make a big difference for your survivability. If you look at Fast Casting, you can see we reach an important breakpoint (13), taking another second of the cooldown of ESurge, CoF, Mistrust, PDrain and Drain Ench. This is pretty big. ZStepmother (talk) 09:11, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I just tested the build with the exact specifications as explained on the page and all the runes, and you're right. It works amazing :D I never realised this GamingReviewsYT (talk) 14:40, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Moving Enfeebling Blood off the BiP
The BiP is without a doubt the most sensitive hero in the build, and also one of the most vital (along with the ST). I fear the inclusion of Enfeebling Blood on the BiP might add an unnecessary element of risk due to the health cost. Displacement and blind already provide two layers of defense versus martials, reducing the usefulness of enfeebling blood. Removing enfeebling blood would also free up another slot of a heal or a res. To advocate for a res: at 12 resto, Death Pact Signet is essentially a full hp full energy res, which offers huge comeback potential compared to flesh of my flesh on mesmers, which is a half health zero energy res (in addition to the 50% health sacrifice). I think this immense difference is worth running it on the BiP if a skill slot is freed up. This would change the ESurge 1 and BiP resto bars to the following:

I have recently been running the above setup for general HM content with much success. I also then think it might be worth adding a defensive variant (with Panic and Enfeebling blood), replacing ESurge 1 with this:

This would add two extra layers of defense (Panic and Enfeebling Blood), only necessary for the most challenging content. I have been running this substitution through DoA and found it very consistent. --Xanshiz (talk) 23:24, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I agree. I have been trying this build for a few days now, and it absolutely rocks, except when the BiP dies. I also said this in my current rating of the build. As soon as the BiP dies (and it often gets targetted, just try HM Tanakai Temple you'll see), it's over. It's completely over. The whole team dies within 5 seconds or less. Completely outflagging the hero is almost always necessary, especially during Winds of Change which it claims the build can do. I've had a few instances where some powerful Ele foes go out of their way to walk nearly inside the majority of the team just to target the BiP who's all the way at the back (didn't die in these occasions, but just saying they want him/her dead). I also had already changed one of the mesmers for a Panic, since not using Panic adds enormous pressure on the team compared to other team compositions. GamingReviewsYT (talk) 16:24, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Also, how much curses would you give the Panic mesmer? GamingReviewsYT (talk) 17:32, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
 * The Panic/curses mesmer listed above would either run 12+4 dom, 11+2 FC, 5+1 insp, 4 curses OR 12+4 dom, 9+1 FC, 8+1 insp, 5 curses. Enfeebling blood requires relatively few points to be effective. --Xanshiz (talk) 19:31, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I run a non merc version of this (obviously inferior), and I don't seem to have the problems you mention at all. I almost never flag my heroes, at most I put up the ST spirits before I aggro stuff. Ive completed WoC HM multiple times with a inferior teambuild (previous versions of the non merc team), without much trouble. Perhaps make a video to show what goes wrong, so we can understand the problems you are experiencing better? ZStepmother (talk) 11:17, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

Hex Eater Signet
Currently, the caster variant runs Hex Eater Signet since there is no risk of the hero running into melee range to use it on the player. However, I am still doubtful as to whether it is better than Shatter Hex in this scenario. The biggest downside is the 25 second CD versus the 6 second CD of shatter hex. Pros: AoE, energy benefits. Cons: zero damage, very long CD. Is it worth it? --Xanshiz (talk) 00:11, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Spirit's Gift versus Signet of Creation on the ST
Spirit's gift provides a nice heal to your backline (and other spirits) every time your ST summons a new spirit. However, the hero uses it poorly: it doesn't maintain it outside of combat, and the hero often will cast it before casting all of the defensive spirits. An alternative is Signet of Creation, which would offset the energy cost of "Fall Back." However, heroes also use Signet of Creation poorly, often before all spirits are up or when spirits are out of range. Another option would be to add a res, but deaths usually only occur when ST spirits drop, and it would be much preferred that the ST recasts spirits over spending time casting a res. The last skill slot on the ST rit is still up in the air. --Xanshiz (talk) 00:17, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Clamor of Souls?
I've had tremendous success running this build as a caster (with the Zei Ri variant), found it safer and faster than Triple Energy Surge or 7hbip Caster Support (in it's current incarnation at least). However, I was just thinking that Clamor of Souls (widely considered a bad skill, iirc) could, maybe, replace Signet of Sprits as a budget "fourth" Energy Surge. It seems faster on a lot of mobs (including HM content). SoS may be desirable as some kind of tool for breaking the aggro of very strong mobs (like in DoA) but for regular vanquishing it looks like I'm spiking things faster with Clamor of Souls. During the 30 seconds betwenn two SoS casts, you can almost squeeze 4 Clamor casts. If you hit multiple enemies (and it happens really often) and/or if your spirits are quickly dispatched this might put Clamor of Souls as an all around better alternative... even if we consider SoS' armor-ignoring damage. I might be seeing things, this might be really crappy to say the least but... Feydslynox (talk) 16:51, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't think it would necessarily be a bad substitution, but Clamor of Souls is generally fairly underwhelming. At 15 channeling: SoS deals ~30 armor-ignoring damage per second, equating to 270 damage per 9 seconds (maximum cast frequency of Clamor of Souls). So the DPS breakpoint requires Clamor of Souls to hit ~4.2 60 armor targets, ~5.9 80 armor targets, or ~8.3 100 armor targets per cast (or some combination thereof). Also, this is assuming Clamor of Souls is used off cooldown (which isn't always the case), so in reality the numbers are greater. SoS also has some other QoL benefits, such as providing a spirit wall and more spirits for MBaS (rarely an issue). Also, since SoS only needs to be cast once per fight, the hero can spend more time healing/using other skills. The high efficiency of channeling skills is the main reason I like SoS restos -- spirits need only be cast once at the beginning of the fight, and then provide passive DPS while the hero spends the entire fight healing. --Xanshiz (talk) 19:23, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Weakness
A big question has been whether/where to slot in weakness. On one hand, blind + displacement is already strong shutdown versus melees; on the other hand, multiple layers of defense is good, and weakness could preserve shelter charges. Enfeebling blood could go on the BiP, but at the same time, adding an additional health cost spell could add unnecessary risk to an already sensitive hero. The ST, SoS, and Inept already have their secondary professions locked, leaving an ESurger. An idea could be to modify the midline as follows:

The Esurge curses would have 12+4 dom, 10+3 FC, 7+1 insp, 4 curses, with a 40/20/30 staff + vitae (to remain at 420 health). 40/40 is less necessary on the Esurge curses due to the loss of Spain, 20% HSR on all spells from the staff is useful since there are now 3 non-dom spells (compared to 1 on the other two Esurgers), and -4 max energy is less important due to better self energy management. Mirror of Disenchantment would offset the loss of a copy of drain enchantment and replace the distasteful res sig on the ineptitude. MoD looks bland at first, but could be worth it since many PvE mobs share the same profession/build, resulting in a high rate of multiple enchantment strips. --Xanshiz (talk) 03:09, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Mirror is quite useless tho. The only thing you'll achieve with that is wasting energy by stripping an entire group's Aura of Restoration, or something like that, leaving less enchantments up for the Drain Ench mesmers to clear. ZStepmother (talk) 09:52, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Perhaps "stripping an entire group's Aura of Restoration" could still be useful, as it which increase the chances of drain enchantment landing on higher priority enchantments. --Xanshiz (talk) 14:33, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

rejuvination
why is that bad skill on here. 10e 30cd 40hp party heal.Willarddog (talk) 02:34, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
 * It's a filler skill, as there aren't exactly many great options. Soothing memories is a candidate, but there are enough low CD spells to keep the hero busy already. I've found enfeebling blood to not be that great with this setup. Weaken armor is obviously useless. Splinter weapon is obviously useless on the caster bar, since you aren't even running minions. You don't want to bring a res on your healer. Painful bond is very expensive for the amount of damage it deals. Unless you suggest a viable alternative, the only skill I'd seriously consider is recuperation. Recuperation has two principal advantages: range, and it doesn't expire. However, it also has considerable downsides. 25 energy cost is very expensive with a low energy pool due to PwK, particularly on a ritualist primary which doesn't have soul reaping to fuel it back up. It also has a 50% longer recharge (45s versus 30s), and rejuvenation heals 67% faster (10 hp/s versus 6).
 * Your comment about a "40hp party heal" is very misleading. For one, it's inaccurate (450/8 = 56.25). Second, unlike other party heals, rejuvenation doesn't overheal, preserving its health pool and allowing it to distribute healing based on need. An alternative way to think about it is a 450hp heal for 10 energy which doesn't overheal (unlike AoE heals such PwK/life, or spot heals such as spirit light) and can also be precasted. I think rejuvenation is often not considered due to the popularity of n/rt's. Rejuvenation is quite bad on a n/rt, healing for only 320 with 12 resto and 0 spawning power. On a rit primary, it heals for 450 (an increase of 41%) with 14 resto and 4 spawning power.
 * For typical missions/vanquishing, you are usually moving from group to group fairly quickly so the benefit is reduced. However, there's no point in optimizing your defense for easy stuff (since you aren't going to wipe anyway by assumption), so we should instead consider the breaking point of the team. Consider an extended fight where you pull multiple groups and face significant pressure. Here, rejuvenation shines, allowing your team to remain topped off despite heavy pressure. I only list it because I have tested the comp a lot, and I found rejuvenation stabilized the team more than any other optional I've tried.
 * Which brings us back to the first point -- what would you suggest in its place? --Xanshiz (talk) 04:43, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
 * when you say it like that, it makes a lot of sense. Willarddog (talk) 20:35, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

SoS player
What to run as the 7th hero if the player has a SoS offensive spirit spammer build? -- kazerniel (talk) 14:58, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * You have two main options: (1) run the quintuple mesmer variant. This could be (1a) 4x Esurge and 1x Ineptitude, (1b) 3x Esurge and 2x Ineptitude, or (1c) 2x Esurge, 1x Panic, and 2x Ineptitude, depending on area and preference. Option (2) is to run a different backline hero, typically a n/rt or an n/mo. For some ideas, take a look at the variable hero here. There are also a lot of different healer heroes across PvX you can toy around with. --Xanshiz (talk) 01:12, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you! -- kazerniel (talk) 11:29, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

ST hero - quicker spell than Boon of Creation?
Is there a quicker spell I could use instead of Boon of Creation? (Or something the hero wouldn't autocast outside of combat.) Because of that 2 second casting time my ST hero always lags behind the team when we're running somewhere. (The BiP hero used to lag behind even more because of casting Life on cooldown, but I fixed that by replacing it with Recuperation.) -- kazerniel (talk) 19:40, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
 * The only thing available to a Rt/P would be leader's zeal, but it does not sound worthwhile. --Krschkr (talk) 23:18, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks! -- kazerniel (talk) 10:37, 8 March 2021 (UTC)