User talk:Dark0805/Sandbox/GvG/Archive 2

Cleared. I'll archive i guess. 13:11, 21 December 2007 (EST)

Those monks are just so horrible... you have no prot at all other than SoD and Aegis... Also, I personally don't like wards on a mind blaster. With infinite energy, it always seems to me like a water snare, blurred, some more damage(immolate), bflash, or gale would be better. Also, flame djinn's haste is good. Use it on one mind blaster, preferably one with gust(did I mention that I don't like wards on mind blasters?). Also, don't drop the evisc for a cripslash... you've got a cripshot and a SS... also, swords are bad damage. Maybe another SS or a hammer, but not a sword. Run RC+WoH backline, imo. Drop the bitch skills on the mind blaster with bflash and take useful stuff like shellshock(so you can bring body blow) and gale. --Edru viransu //QQ about me /sysop 11:56, 22 December 2007 (EST)
 * Also, runners that shatter themselves ftl, imo. --Edru viransu //QQ about me /sysop 11:59, 22 December 2007 (EST)

Needs more immolate, imo. --Edru viransu //QQ about me /sysop 22:24, 22 December 2007 (EST)
 * And more shell shock(so you can have more body blow). Also, dual splinter and dual ancestor's? You've already got a lot of AoE. --Edru viransu //QQ about me /sysop 22:27, 22 December 2007 (EST)
 * We ran this today and p00ned, my version has about one skill different than waht got us 2/3(tab being too lazy to prot himself on the 3) and rawr is about to rape those monk bars, but...idk whats wrong with them. explain twould be cool.[[Image:Dark0805sig2.PNG]] christmas doesnt warrant stupid sigs, people 22:29, 22 December 2007 (EST)
 * They have a total of three prots on both bars. SoD, and two copies of Aegis. --Edru viransu //QQ about me /sysop 22:31, 22 December 2007 (EST)
 * reversal of fortune, dimsmiss condition? and rawr caught what i completely forgot, spirit bond.[[Image:Dark0805sig2.PNG]] christmas doesnt warrant stupid sigs, people 22:32, 22 December 2007 (EST)
 * They're good now, although I personally prefer SoA over Stabil. Dunno about what the meta is atm, though, so dunno. Your E/D doesn't need that much emanagement. Drop GoLE imo, for immolate or gale or something less redundant. Fireball's rather redundant, since you don't really need a second AoE nuke with RI. Immolate iz gud, though. Or Liquid Flame. I prefer immolate for spam pressure. 2 copies of ancestor's and splinter still seems excessive to me. --Edru viransu //QQ about me /sysop 22:39, 22 December 2007 (EST)
 * Thats wut im saying on vent. And no, dual AR iz gud. - Rawrawr  22:41, 22 December 2007 (EST)
 * Imo glyph is still necessary, when your'e running bflash and might need to use regen. rawr showed me the light with fireballEdru viransu //QQ about me /sysop 22:47, 22 December 2007 (EST)
 * energy is for girls - Rawrawr  22:47, 22 December 2007 (EST)
 * Bflash is an unattuned 15 energy, what am i missing here? Mind Blast DOES run out of energy. Its not impossible.[[Image:Dark0805sig2.PNG]] christmas doesnt warrant stupid sigs, people 09:47, 23 December 2007 (EST)

Going to be raped by mesmers and rangers. No way to divert/leak aegis or Ward is ftl. Pious Rt + AoS is bad. Go Rt/A and drop a MB for a mesmer. How do you counter a split? How do you split? Those are the biggest flaws I see in this build. --Readem
 * Split/antisplit is simple. Evis, the MB with bflash, and the rit if you need it. I think. >.< AoS has other function(lolol mispelled that as "fucktions") other than rit, and either way pious's ability overshadow that imo. And one mesmer and ranger(IF both are on a team) they can almost shut down one and minimally shutdown another. Only like .1 sedcond timed diversions represent a huge threat. Look at the recharge times on blast and 'gorts. The power-leak/drain that makes the interruptee lose nrg might also hurt(seriously, i can never remember which is which).[[Image:Dark0805sig2.PNG]] christmas doesnt warrant stupid sigs, people 09:45, 23 December 2007 (EST)
 * I assume you're referring to Pious Haste's ability to shatter your runner's prot when they're trying to cap and get them killed because they're getting trained and they keep shattering themself? --Edru viransu //QQ about me /sysop 12:38, 23 December 2007 (EST)
 * I'm referring to the ability to keep virtual constant 33. I'm referring to the ability to be untouchable unless they are snared, and i'm assuming you;ve forgotten most prots last only <10 seconds, anyway. Guardian, spirit bond, they all are in good shape with haste.[[Image:Dark0805sig2.PNG]] christmas doesnt warrant stupid sigs, people 12:47, 23 December 2007 (EST)

Essence Strike without Spirits? Why are you running essence strike on a BSurge anyway? --<font color="Black">Edru viransu //<font color="Red">QQ about me /sysop 18:12, 24 December 2007 (EST)
 * Its gone now, and i thought it was unconditional gain. I.e., i was gonna use that instead of gole for a little e manage, and still have a baby spike assist. twas kinda stupid.[[Image:Dark0805sig2.PNG]] christmas doesnt warrant stupid sigs, people 10:24, 26 December 2007 (EST)
 * Running w/o mesmer and ranger, that's stupid. BB monks. - [[Image:Unexist sig.jpg|20px]]<font color="Black">Unexist  12:58, 11 January 2008 (EST)

Dual Rangers
Mending touch is useless with draw. Should i put in AoS for goodness? 19:47, 14 January 2008 (EST)

comeon activity plz? 08:12, 15 January 2008 (EST)


 * Mending Touch is more for split ability than for stand use, and you don't want your ele to be on draw bitch duty all match.
 * With dual ranger builds, it doesn't really make much sense to run AoM - you want a frontline that is capable of splitting well to take advantage of having dual rangers. I'd reccomend Dev hammer/Dragon Slash + Shock Axe.

A few months back (around LoD time), DF/FFS used to run a similar build, but without the derv and with a P/N with Cruel Spear and Rotting Flesh instead of the Mind Blast, which gives you a build with the same merits as the classic KGYU pressure template. The reasons you don't see builds similar to this at higher levels anymore is due to LoD being nerfed, and therefore party healing being taken away from the stand (in a pressure build such as this, where you rely heavily on degen pressure from conditions to score kills, you absolutely MUST shutdown their party healing in a timespace of ~2 mins to wipe them before they wipe you), aswell as the fact that most guilds don't have two rangers good enough to justify such a build.

My advice would be to go with:

Which leaves you with the final slot. You're going to want something that complements the condition pressure aspect of the build, which would be a Tainter, Mind Blast or para with Rotting Flesh. <font color="Black">Tab  <font color="Black">Moo  08:32, 15 January 2008 (EST)
 * I Chose AoM simply because of its strong synergy with degenerative builds. Every 6 seconds, a degenning target the monks are scrambling to keep afloat...explodes.
 * Your absolutely right on the necessary shutdown/party healign comment. A hammer seemed the natural choice, so i think a dev hammer>AoM frontline does well with this build.
 * Mind Blast adds 100-partially condition based damage every 3 seconds, still can blind like a bsurge, and still can WaM. It is the best there is, imo.
 * Is Debilitating Shot really worth losing mending touch? The essentially unkillable midline in the form on two rangers is a risky thing to squander when one debil can effectively reduce a monks regen to 1 pip.
 * Why focus the big-big prots on the WoH? SB should go the RC, no? Same with AoS. higher prot... i remember asking you about this b4, lol.
 * Thx for youer suggestions, and p.s. congrats on your new guild(according to guru atleast). Will i be obsing you anytime soon?[[Image:Dark0805sig2.PNG]] 09:07, 15 January 2008 (EST)
 * The problem with AoM is that now it's been nerfed, it's effective at one aspect of warrioring and that's it. It doesn't have the ability to force kills and dchop key skills, and Wearying isn't really that good at spreading DW compared to Evisc. In a pressure build of this type (compared to ones such as hexgay).
 * AoM is more of a thing for quickly recharging shadowstep spikes (no need to build adrenaline) and less effective warriors. Having the extra bstrike and dchop in a pressure build can often be the thing that lets you wipe them before you collapse.
 * Debil Shot on both rangers is pretty good for additional pressure. Having both rangers capable of throwing out a debilshot once the opposing monks are pressure and swap to their high set is going to make the build far more effective. Also, you don't really need both rangers to have mtouch, so it's a choice of Blackout or Debilshot on one of them imo. It's going to be extremely rare that you split off both rangers, as that effectively losing all of your pressure and shutdown, and in the rare case that you do, two debilshots and one mtouch is going to be more effective than one debilshot and two mtouches as long as your rangers play smartly.
 * SB on the WoH is a combination of personal preference and synergising monk bars. I always play the WoH nowadays, and I'm far better with Sb than I am with PS, so that's the bar I also run. Additionaly to that, the RC bar is pretty energy heavy, as it's going to be focusing on key conditions and damage migitation through Guardian alot of the time, whereas the WoH doesn't have to worry about much more than landing the SB and healing up and damage that gets through. Another thing to take note of is that the standard backline I run doesn't take Infuse - which gets rid of the old reasoning in a LoD/RC backline, that both monks should have a skill focused around spike stopping. With WoH as the spike heal, you still need to prot the target first to save them, in which case it doesn't matter as much which monk SB is on.
 * The reasoning for AoS on the WoH is that the RC is both more effective with Guardian (7 sconds@14prot compared to 5 seconds@9 prot) than the WoH and that the bar is more energy heavy, meaning GoLE is pretty nice to have on there instead of the necessity of /W with Balanced Stance to let both monks have anti-KD measures. Stability doesn't really give much after about 6 prot, at which it lasts for 11 seconds, which is all you need to stop one hammer chain/let a flagger get through/stop the other monk getting KDed on a spike etc, as opposed to Guardian becoming more effective as I mentioned before, so it's a case of maximising efficiency over both monks.
 * Probably, yes.
 * [[Image:Ibreaktoilets_Signature.jpg|User:Ibreaktoilets]]<font color="Black">Tab  <font color="Black">Moo  09:25, 15 January 2008 (EST)
 * What AoM nerf? Good points on the monks though, and same with the rangers. I will make those changes now. I may submit this once the AoM issue is resolved.[[Image:Dark0805sig2.PNG]] 09:29, 15 January 2008 (EST)
 * By AoM nerf I meant Wearying Strike nerf. I don't find that the pressure it gives is good enough to warrant a loss of versitility and bstrike/dchop anymore. [[Image:Ibreaktoilets_Signature.jpg|User:Ibreaktoilets]]<font color="Black">Tab  <font color="Black">Moo  09:32, 15 January 2008 (EST)
 * Indeed. Well, hexgay was what i was thinking when i put in AoM. The versaility of this build is in the rest of the offense, so it's really not a big deal to lose a little bit. However, the /w variant may not be the best. I just worry about energy on AoM's a lot =/.[[Image:Dark0805sig2.PNG]] 09:37, 15 January 2008 (EST)
 * When I say versitility, I mean the ability of each frontliner in it's self to be able to spike, split off and push, gank, pressure and force kills. ::::::The AoM bar can't really do that, it's a pretty one dimensional build that's suited more to a team with bad frontliners than the kind of team that's going to be running a dual ranger build. There's also the 50% downtime, in which you've got one horribad frontliner dragging you down. If you can consistantly wipe teams with this in less than 60 seconds, then AoM is a viable option, otherwise dual warrior is by far the better option.
 * Also, a point I forgot to comment on before - Mind Blast. It's down to what you want the build to do as to what you should run in the optional. If you want a versitile split build that can pressure well at the stand, then a Mind Blast E/D would be good, although it's worth noting that with no diversion/ward on a mesmer to interrupt, it's going to be pretty inexcusable for them to let you RI away at the stand.
 * If you want the build to really blow things up at the stand, then you've got a choice between a Tainted mes and a Rotting para. The mes lets you bring more shutdown to the table as well as having a more reliable source of Disease, the para gives you a massive increase in non degen-based offense as well as the ability to perform more powerful spikes and split a warrior without losing hope of achieving a huge amount at the stand. [[Image:Ibreaktoilets_Signature.jpg|User:Ibreaktoilets]]<font color="Black">Tab  <font color="Black">Moo  09:43, 15 January 2008 (EST)
 * The rotting para sounds unappealing. Disease spreads, and in general i find it only effective in dedicated pressure builds. This is pressure with splitability, general versatility, and multiple avenues of pressure. Standard has little more than its conditions and a humsig. Debil, chaining knockdown, blind, burning, 4 interrupts flying all over the place...disease, and especially tainted, are lacking in general versatility and no matter what are dangerous. Playing with disease is like playing with fire and you need to be sure that if you set yourself on fire, the other teams in deeper shit. that is not going to be the case with this. Re: also on AoM, one thing i truly love about it is the power of it at VoD. When you splinter it, the NPC's are going to explode. That sort of advantage is going to win a game. I am in absolute favor of this mind blast, but not the /d. drawboting+ward+blind is better than splitting when you have 2 rangers.[[Image:Dark0805sig2.PNG]] 09:55, 15 January 2008 (EST)

(reset indent)The reason to take the para is that a third physical gives you a huge amount more pressure, and it allows you to split far more agressively by sending off one warrior. Not only that, but if your monks feel they can't manage a team with no midline defence outside of outpressuring the opponent, it allows you to run SoR and increase the builds survivability. You don't try to maintain Disease with Rotting - you put it up as they begin to break to finish them off and cause a wipe. About AoM - you don't run a condition pressure glasscannon build to hold out untill VoD and wipe their NPCs with Splinter. To even stand a chance against teams of equal skill, you need to get their entire team under moderate to heavy DP and take out alot of their NPCs before VoD if you're even going to stand a chance. Remember that this is always going to be a build that will collapse in a couple of minutes against an equal team, at VoD you're looking at around 30 seconds if you don't have a huge advantage by them. Basically, you should either have won the game of be in such an advantaged position that you've pretty much won by VoD. Anything else and you've lost. Because of this, you want your frontline to have the best chance possible of breaking a team - which is why you take two warriors, and that's also why the paragon is appealing.
 * How exactly is this a glass cannon? Also, if party healing is an issue, could heal party on the mind blast be a possible avenue of approach?[[Image:Dark0805sig2.PNG]] 10:14, 15 January 2008 (EST)
 * It's entirely lacking in midline defence. For it to be an effective pressure build, even the Mind Blast isn't going to be able to take anything more than Bflash for spikes if you were to take one. Heal Party on a Mind Blast is bad. It's either dshot fodder or means you have to take Glyph of Conc, which gimps your bar. --[[Image:Ibreaktoilets_Signature.jpg|User:Ibreaktoilets]]<font color="Black">Tab  <font color="Black">Moo  10:16, 15 January 2008 (EST)