Archive talk:R/A Pet Dagger Spam

big pet domages. + ℓγ ss άή [rage]  14:03, September 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * WTB lead attack Chi Shan  14:05, September 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * Shit. Can't read, sorry, will replace Golden Fang Strike with something else. + ℓγ ss άή [rage]  14:07, September 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * Black Spider Strike is the best set up fodder for both Scavenger Strike and Death Blossom that I could find :\ Any more suggestions? + ℓγ ss άή [rage]  14:14, September 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * Run a sin methinks. --Shazzy diddles 14:56, September 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * This can spam more skills at once :> I love using MS to recharge pet attacks -- -Ch  ao  s-   16:07, September 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * Whoops, pet attacks not contributing to Crit Strikes makes Expertise better. --Shazzy diddles 18:56, September 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * Moo, black lotus and brutal strike Brandnew 18:59, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

Get rid of mel's assault and bring bms and fox fangs--Relyk 20:08, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

Wow, I never realised that MS recharges pet attacks too.. that's probably some impressive AoE. Spamspamspam HareeMuh 20:35, September 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * I never knew that either. Thought they would fall into a different category (silly anet etc)--72.189.82.222 21:10, September 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * Pet Attacks are of the skill categories "Pet skills" and "Attack skills". MS recharges "Attack-skills", thus it recharges Pet Attacks. Nothing silly in that. -- -Ch  ao  s-   21:18, September 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for brushing it up for me ;) this seems like it's done as far as modifying the skill bar goes, so should it be moved into testing? + <font color="#004466">ℓγ <font color="#005566">ss <font color="#006666">άή <font color="#007766">[rage]  21:40, September 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd change the pet attack first. Abuse those with huge damages, tho keep Scavenger's if necessary. -- -Ch  ao  s-   21:52, September 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm going to test this on the Master of Damage with a bunch of little variants and see what yields the highest DPS while still maintaining energy. + <font color="#004466">ℓγ <font color="#005566">ss <font color="#006666">άή <font color="#007766">[rage]  21:56, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

Pet attacks every 2 seconds, MS/DB with no IAS takes slightly longer than that to complete a cycle. If you even add 25% IAS, the speed is high enough that the pet can make Mel's Assault happen every hit if you mash the keyboard fast enough. I haven't actually tested or anything, but math says you need IAS. --<font color=Orange face="Comic Sans MS">Shazzy diddles 22:12, September 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * But math also says this does a shitton of AoE damage. + <font color="#004466">ℓγ <font color="#005566">ss <font color="#006666">άή <font color="#007766">[rage]  22:14, September 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * If you have IAS your pet can hit Mel's on 33% or something more attacks. Even more. --<font color=Orange face="Comic Sans MS">Shazzy diddles 22:19, September 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm changing AScan and Scavenger Strike to Optional slots, as Asuran Scan isn't absolutely needed, and energy manages fine without Scavenger Strike. + <font color="#004466">ℓγ <font color="#005566">ss <font color="#006666">άή <font color="#007766">[rage]  22:27, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

I like using Strike as One for an elite on this, when you are up against fleshy mobs. --neon1024 11:47, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

OEN MOAR
vote pl0x. + <font color="#004466">ℓγ <font color="#005566">ss <font color="#006666">άή <font color="#007766">[rage]  20:42, September 20, 2009 (UTC)
 * ...votevotevote! + <font color="#004466">ℓγ <font color="#005566">ss <font color="#006666">άή <font color="#007766">[rage]  22:26, September 20, 2009 (UTC)
 * your welcome--Gl0ry Check out my Dumb PvE Ideas! 22:32, September 20, 2009 (UTC)
 * <3 + <font color="#004466">ℓγ <font color="#005566">ss <font color="#006666">άή <font color="#007766">[rage]  22:37, September 20, 2009 (UTC)
 * Sooo to all you pve pro players, would you say that daggers + this new aoe buff pet thing > scythes on rangers? just curious [[Image:Muffin.jpg|19px]]<font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  20:26, September 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * In PvE? I don't know. Go ask Lau, Life, or Iron. + <font color="#004466">ℓγ <font color="#005566">ss <font color="#006666">άή <font color="#007766">[rage]  20:47, September 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * Verdict after screwing around in some earlier areas is that Scythes>daggers in 8 man areas. Daggers>Scythe in 4 man, 6 man, and 8 man areas with small mobs that don't group up much(like destroyers). Life   Guardian  01:07, September 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * I prefer daggers because just faster attacking feels a lot better to play with and can distribute splinter and damage from SoH usually quicker, you're not dependant on killing a group of 3+. - <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Athrun <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Feya - 22:06, December 29, 2009 (UTC)

Jagged Strike
So, I really don't understand why you would ever use jagged strike in a build with MS/DB especially in PvE. -- <font color="Black">Drah 01:03, September 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * Jagged-->Fox gets you to MS/DB faster. Without a maintainable IAS, golden fox-->wild is actually kinda slow. Life   Guardian  01:09, September 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * I understand that but, the majority of your time you are going to be spamming MS/DB right? -- <font color="Black">Drah 01:09, September 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * So then your original argument is moot because you're spamming MS/DB most of the time? I've never been a fan of GPS. Life   Guardian  01:21, September 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * Because things usually die before you reach MS /w Golden/Wild. [[Image:Zyke-Sig.png]] 02:20, September 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * I never said you should run GPS, I said that I don't know why you would run jagged in a pve build. -- <font color="Black">Drah 03:30, September 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * cause ur bad?--Relyk 03:34, September 24, 2009 (UTC)

A/R Variant
R/A is better because of Expertise and doesn't relies on an enchantment but I think the A/R version should not be forgotten so imma just gonna leave this here.

Much luff, <font color="FF4500" face="calibri">Rada Arashi  20:01, October 24, 2009 (UTC)

Survivability, or total lack thereof?
Ok, am I the only person here noticing the TOTAL absence of self defence on the ranger's part? - This might be "good" in normal mode but it fails most horribly in hard mode or end-game NF/Factions/EotN

With 75 physical armour (90 if running beastmaster's insig), no block, no self heals or damage reduction you're completely reliant (and a major drain on) the prots and heals from the rest of the party; now in some circumstances that can be justified (ie. certain ele or assasin builds that deal enough DPS for an entire party, yes I'm looking at you Kavek...), but really, the DPS on this build, even factoring in AoE just isn't that good.

Which brings me onto another issue (Even in HM) in a well structured h/h team individual targets die before you can activate moebius strike more than once - if at all; killing the entire point of the elite and defeatting the underlying concept of spamming melandru's in addition to blossom for a slight AoE damage boost (And I stress slight, 16 damage in "nearby" range every 2-5 seconds isn't exactly a splinter barrage or QQ spike)

Pets create a crowded skill bar so you need to either sacrifice at least one thing and if you plan to fight in melee beyond shing jea island that one thing can't be defence. I'd like to be more constructive, but I've tried many many times over the years to formulate a survivable melee/pet build besides thumper (which provides psuedo defence through knockdowns) and they all suffer the same flaw; there's no room on the bar for defence.

- The Ashwalker --94.76.168.211 03:05, December 28, 2009 (UTC)
 * First, learn to play PvE. Survivibility is a joke and is completely unnecessary. Second, you don't even need to get to moebius for this to be effective. Since the buff to dagger attacks, you dont even need moebius anymore for a powerful chain. Life   Guardian  03:21, December 28, 2009 (UTC)
 * You're probably just doing something wrong. The DPS, if one thing, is amazing. Survivability is fine as long as you don't rush in before the rest of your team (been there, done that.. Frost Gate HM <3) -- -Chaos- (moo) -- 10:32, December 28, 2009 (UTC)
 * Just take p"I Am Unstoppable!" or something. - <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Athrun <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Feya - 21:49, December 29, 2009 (UTC)
 * Perhaps we should make the elite optional like on Build:A/any Dagger Spammer <font color="DarkGreen"> ~  <font color="DarkGreen">Short <font color="DarkGreen"> ~  21:52, December 29, 2009 (UTC)
 * Id rather not. Moebius recharges pet attacks too, and making Moebius only optional means you lose consistent AoE damage if you bring a different elite. + <font color="#004466">ℓγ <font color="#005566">ss <font color="#006666">άή <font color="#007766">[rage]  03:28, December 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, i didn't realise it was Ash. Hiii! If you're not finding MS/DB any good try using the first four skills of this, with whatever elite/pet attacks you like and of course some expertise. - <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Athrun <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Feya - 17:46, December 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm I've changed the build around a little, making moebius optional. Melandru's is only 5s recharge anyway, only a second or so short of jagged -> fox -> death blossom and the majority of things die before you get much further. The damage from the attack itself isn't huge or anything, so I don't know why this wasn't changed earlier. - <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Athrun <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Feya - 21:57, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

Fox Fangs vs. Wild Strike
Isn’t Wild Strike preferable over Fox Fangs? They deal the same amount of damage and are both unblockable, however, Wild Strike also removes a stance and has no activation time. The higher recharge time shouldn’t matter once you get to cycle MS/DB. Did I miss something? --Hatch 14:55, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1/2 sec activation and the recharge time are better, so you can restart the MS/DB chain faster once a target has died (which can be pretty quick in PvE). <font face="Courier New" color="Black">Toraen <font face="Courier New" color="DarkGoldenrod">TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png]] 17:34, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Assassin Primary
I already use a dagger-pet build that is pretty similar on my assassin, usually when in some kind of physical support team where having the pet as another physical is more useful.

Basically standard death blossom spammer with two BM skills thrown in. Necromas 21:20, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Vote Wipe
I was told to ask for one. -- Jai . - <font color="#7A7A7A"> 21:06, September 22 2010 (UTC)
 * The only problem I see with doing one is that it'd usually take ages for a PvE general build to get 5 votes unless it's meta or absolutely horrible (this is neither). Toraen 02:12, September 23, 2010 (UTC)

Why did this become a great build?
It sucked back then before the Dervish update, and it still sucks now.
 * It never sucked, and it's even more viable now that scythes are less viable on a ranger. -- Jai . -  14:37, May 7 2011 (UTC)

As an alternative

 * Expertise: 12 + 1 + 1
 * Dagger Mastery: 12

Still the same 1-2-3 concept, keeps a spammable deep wound, better energy management and has a better IAS. All you lose is the pet, but that's probably worth it. Kracatoan 21:39, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Probably make a new page for that one (as the scythe also had separate pet and non-pet versions before the derv update). It's perfectly viable and even better in some areas. --  Toraen   talk  21:41, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Escape Dagger Spam works good too, High End and HM balling with RoJ way and tanking. <font color="#62686C">Sjan <font color="#266592">talk  21:55, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
 * tbh just merge that + derv dagger spam into the Any/A caster daggers -_- [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain  <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  22:22, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't do that because rangers aren't casters, they actually have useful skills for a melee build (like IAS+Block), and have a useful primary attribute. --  Toraen   talk  02:11, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Eh, I'd rather have an IAS than blocking; it's easy to micro a prot on yourself. AegisDok 22:35, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Tbh, with escapes speedboost you can just throw shelter up, dc in and forget about any other micro. Jag-FF-DB under splinter should be enough for a balled mob while heroes roj/nuke. When I use my version of rojway, it's on stuff that balls self. Escapes unshatterable block helps alot with that. Falrach 23:43, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd rely on LR for most situations, escape is convenient for chasing kiting foes and balling for the more annoying areas.-- Relyk 01:43, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll set about making a new page with both ED and Escape once I've finished making my scotch eggs. Kracatoan 08:30, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I look forward to getting into hopeless arguments over the usefulness of pets. :) AegisDok 08:44, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Made the non-pet version here, feel free to fix anything stupid I did. And I suppose whether or not you want to use a pet is down to the individual player, so having a pet and non-pet version seems only sensible. Kracatoan 09:02, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

How
is it that your pet gets targeted before the minions, spirits, or caster heroes? Are we playing different games? Have you used a ranger with a pet in PvE before? Yes, pets have awful AI, but that AI rarely affects anything because the pet always gets ignored. This is depressing. AegisDok 23:55, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
 * It may not be all targeted at my pet, but he does in some areas take too much damage from incidental AoE and a couple targeted attacks. I often do run with a pet though, since I tend to c-space a bit more than I tank&spank. I've successfully balled with a pet even. It's just that some enemies just make the pet a liability rather than an asset. --  Toraen   talk  00:54, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
 * All this said, this really should be in great because it's one of the best options for a ranger in general play. Only Scythes and the non-pet dagger spammer give it any competition. --  Toraen   talk  01:10, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Okay, okay
1. pet always fucks up aggro Put the pet on heel when you pull. 2. pet attacks and changes targets fucking slowly. True, but it's still a net plus to your damage output; the only reason this could be a viable reason to downgrade the build is if you felt that either a: you were wasting attributes, or b: you were wasting valuable skill slots. Anyone who's run this knows that you don't need max expertise, and since dagger spammer builds always have an absurd amount of optionals, its not like using two slots on comfort/NRA is interfering with what you want to run, especially when one is your IAS. Please disagree; I want to understand your logic. :/ AegisDok 05:05, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
 * pet damage lol-- Relyk 11:41, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
 * You get something for nothing, even if it's not too much. AegisDok 11:13, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Expertise
I'd recommend 13 at least. The 5&rarr;2e breakpoint means you aren't locked into using Scavenger Strike+Zealous at all times. -Toraen (talk) 23:01, 7 October 2019 (UTC)