Archive talk:Team - Dual ER Backline

yay. this is what i wanted to be posted maybe 3 weeks ago. - Athrun Feya  - 00:14, May 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * So basically two ER Infusers with different optional slots? D: I think one ER Infuser + monk with hex and condition removal is more effective. You have 2 players out a usual team of 8 that just heals, no condition or hex removal... [[image:Unwokensig1.png]] 00:20, May 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * 2 ER's are more powerful healers and protters than monks. As far as condition and hex removal, you really don't need it in most areas (you can just heal through them).  Now in places where its bad enough, its more effective to bring another player or hero who can handle a lot of cleaning.  If you are bringing melees, blind can be dealt with through other support players (e.g. Necros) or you can just bring Draw Condition (which I'll add now).  --Arrogant Arrogant_Bastard_Sig.jpg Bastard  00:59, May 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * this is actually one of those builds i have a good feeling about.--Bluetapeboy 02:19, May 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Can it be put into testing now? Seeing as it's already been discussed on the ER and Physway pages extensively  Minion Splinter Weapon.jpg Excluded 10:02, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

I wish more groups would use ER Backlines to heal and prot, we do it alot faster and alot better. Sorry Monks, we use your skills better than you can, well not necessarily better, but faster.

Anything missing?
I think I have all the info and issues addressed in the build. If I'm missing anything post here and I'll check it.--Arrogant  Bastard  22:56, May 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hexes Dr Rawr 22:57, May 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * They don't hurt enough. Pending the Mesmer update, it may a decent option to bring something like Convert Hexes, but it is still better just to bring hex removal on other party members.  Its quit easy to fit in Remove Hex/Reveal Hex/etc. on a few party members or a hero if there are a few nasty hexes in an area.  However, more often than not, you can just heal through them, even in hex heavy areas like FoW.--Arrogant Arrogant_Bastard_Sig.jpg Bastard  23:09, May 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * the only times i really ever need to bring hex removal in fow or other similar places, but they are few and far between, for mop/ss/emp or whatevers..cos that really messes up the frontline, usually not really needed, as either the bad hexes dont get used enough to matter or cheap non threatening hexes are reapplied so fast its a waste of time to remove them in most areas. Usually easier/quicker to heal thru, and when they are a problem you can respec the team for a cleaner in midline) ::Jayson::: 00:13, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * As the game currently is, I don't see hexes in general to be an issue. Or a res skill since it's painfully easy to be worked out with between players and heroes. Cuilan 01:59, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * A bit tricky pulling this build off in a number of EoTN dungeons on HM. Theres plenty of enchant removals in a good portion of the dungeons. A few have continuous blind. A good number of dungeons also have plenty of interrupts. I think thats a key weakness in the build, that its very reliant on the Ether Renewal. If that gets interrupted once you can't recover. Though on the most part it works well. [[image:Unwokensig1.png]] 02:37, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * I've used the dual ER backline in places like Foundry, Slaver's Exile, and ToPK where there are tons of interrupts, strips, kd, etc. If you simply prepare properly (e.g. an Order's Necro with Aegis and Dwyana's Sorrow provides multiple layers of enchantment cover for example), these areas can be beaten (and generally much faster than any Non-SC team).--Arrogant Arrogant_Bastard_Sig.jpg Bastard  02:54, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * lol, I'm thinking speed would matter on the offensive. It would probably prevent more deaths though if thats what you mean. On the most part it would be slower because you don't carry hex and condition removal that prevent your teammates from effectively doing damage or shutdowns. Of course, the difference in speed probably wouldn't be that much different, but this build certainly wouldn't be faster. [[image:Unwokensig1.png]] 03:26, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, Reverse Hex would be really nice in this build. 1/4 cast time and prevent incoming damage. With the 5% limit, thats basically no damage. Its also falls under Protection Prayers which is like perfect. [[image:Unwokensig1.png]] 03:34, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Fast because if your team doesn't have to bring more defense outside of a few utility cleaning, they can bring more damage.
 * Also, I'm curious to know what areas have these hexes that completely shutdown damage dealers. I haven't been to a place where bringing some hex removal on a Necro or Mesmer wasn't enough.
 * As far as Reverse Hex, the recharge is too long.--Arrogant Arrogant_Bastard_Sig.jpg Bastard  03:36, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Wha??? Average recharge for a hex removal is 12 seconds, 10 seconds is great. Idk what kinda of recharge you are thinking about. I never said completely shutdown. I said "prevent your teammates from effectively doing damage or shutdowns" so "difference in speed probably wouldn't be that much different, but this build certainly wouldn't be faster" However one place in particular that actually does shutdown physical is SoO. You can't get rid of the blinds fast enough. Parts of DD had nasty hexes if I remember correctly. Everyone should still bring some sort of self defense if possible. Clearly you can rely on the healers so much. Idk where you are trying to get with this conversation. I think its pretty obvious a handful of places need hex and condition removals, and a good number of places would be more efficient with removals, thats all I have been saying.
 * Edit: I just realized you removed reverse hex from the optional. You got to stop doing that kind of stuff. If its a good optional, leave it. Again, theres literally less than 3 non-elite hex removals that are faster than 10 seconds. [[image:Unwokensig1.png]] 04:35, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Blind isn't a hex and can be easily dealt with by ER's (Purifying Veil, Draw Conditions).
 * I don't care what the recharge is for hex removal, their recharge is too long to be used effectively by an ER.
 * The point is, there aren't that many places where hexes matter, and in these cases you are better off bringing a dedicated cleaner or hex removal on something like a Necro.
 * Perhaps with a Monk backline you need these sorts of things stapled to your bar because you'll drain too much energy healing through hexes/conditions. This isn't the case with ER Eles.
 * Clearly, you have little to no experience with ER Eles nor do you understand the mechanics of how they work. Reverse Hex is a terrible optional.--Arrogant Arrogant_Bastard_Sig.jpg Bastard  04:42, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * No it's not, and stop acting like you're good at pve-- Relyk  talk  05:12, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * My mistake, I don't know what I'm talking about. From these new findings I believe these are probably the ideal bars:

--Arrogant  Bastard  07:01, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

On a more serious note, while you are entitled to your "opinion", keep in mind that opinions aren't equal and contrary to what your parents told you, your opinions can be wrong. I'm not saying not to post whatever you want, but if you don't know what you are talking about, don't be angry when I call you on your bullshit.--Arrogant  Bastard  07:10, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * If you think Clumsiness and Spiteful Spirit/Empathy are the shutdowns for physicals, then you'd be wrong as you can attack through them with PBond active. On the subject of Blind; you have 6 more team members. Atleast one more of those will be supporting your frontline/damage output. Remove Hex or Convert Hexes are the best options really (fastest recharge, remove all hexes respectively.) Draw Conditions does work on one ER, and generally if you have a necro on your team they'll have FF/hex support.


 * By the way, we completed SoO HM with a Physway team very swiftly; you just need to prepare for the blind spam.  Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg Excluded 10:29, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

Mechanics of ER
Short explanation: Maintain as many prots on the party as possible. You need to be able to spam them as much as possible to maintain energy due to Protective Bond spiking your energy in some cases.
 * Any enchant/spell above a 5 second recharge is not spammable enough.
 * Any enchant/spell above 2 second casting speed is not spammable enough.
 * The more enchants in the party, the more energy you will have and the easier it will be to maintain PB through powerful spikes.
 * Infuse Health is the only spike-heal you need. And you CAN spam it without problems.  Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg Excluded 10:38, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Going to have to be on the main page for the stupids. Cuilan 16:05, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

Point?
Tbh, I don't see any point in keeping this. One ER is amazing, but two ERs isn't necessarily double amazing. The additional ER benefits the team much less, because one copy of Infuse Health should be enough to keep the team up with a little support, and Protective Bond doesn't have to be maintained on the whole team. Unless you're doing a 12-man, another ER seems like a waste. Also, there's only one skill different in either build compared to Build:E/Mo Ether Renewal Bonder: Life Attunement isn't on the second bar. ــѕт. мıкε  01:01, May 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * So you think one spot-heal on the team is enough in an eight-man party? Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg Excluded 01:46, May 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * 2 copies of Spirit Light and MBaS at 13 can heal for a maximum of 120 Health per second (barring party Healing, which you said wasn't necessary here, but 2 PWKs would likely net an extra 30 Health per second at most, assuming you get the full 75 on 5 party members every use); that's one ER every 2 seconds, which you could double if you needed to. Tbh, I think you'd be better off with an ER and an Imbagon (for EBSoH and "TNtF!" more than "SY!"). One ER has better healing than any other Healer and some of the best Prot possible; one ER is better (imo) than Archive:Team_-_UA/HB_Mimicry. Of course, a little support somewhere else is nice (Aegis, Enfeebling Blood, perhaps some party healing or healing over time (to make up for sacs)), but a whole other ER wouldn't offer much to the team. ــѕт.  мıкε  02:16, May 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * You can also maintain Protective Spirit or Spirit Bond on whoever isn't enchanted with Protective Bond. ــѕт.  мıкε  02:20, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

vigorous spirit is pointless, you dont need it for fuel for er or to heal people, needs more draw conditions/heal party-- Relyk  talk  02:50, May 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * In PvE, it's all about ease of use. Maintaining PB on the whole team is easy; and you don't have to see who's taking most of the damage to throw prots on, etc. It is possible to simply maintain PS on most people; but no one would bother and people would still end up dying. Especially when people over-aggro/Overextend...Etc...  Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg Excluded 10:05, May 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's already easy, now you're slowing down the team, because you've dedicated another player to healing/prot. ــѕт.  мıкε  11:20, May 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * i think the point is you can maintain prot bond on everyone. effectively making it as hard as nm with cons (unless there is enchant strip). - Athrun Feya [[Image:Lau_bfly.gif]] - 11:52, May 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * That ^ and that enchant strips that deep are rare, and you got your ER covered by at least 3 enchants, adn the rest of the team is heavy layered with them to, so get targeted first due to been first to agro/you been at the back... and lol hp. The only option that even comes close to 2x er infuzers is 1xer + 1xap monk, and that fall a little behind :(. running this back line doesnt slow you down at all lol, you can go balls deep without worrying about overagro, be aggressive as fuck, and go harder and faster than any another backline would allow you all without coming close to dying = faster clear of area/mish/dungeon for anything like a balanced team. Tho i can monk solo for a team of 8 in 80% of hm and no have any deaths, its just plainly not as fast as when no one can die cos you can be so much more agressive, oh and just put sy on a frontline saves a precious slot, and gives better outputs than an imba on an already tough as fuck to kill team.......Jayson MaxxFury 13:47, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

With Heroes....
I tried using this with Heroes in a 2man team using players 1) Spirit Spam with Channeling 2) Spirit Spam with Communit, then a discord 3 heroe team with one of the spammers, and the other had a ER Back line heroes, and 1 discord hero. Of course the discord heroes didn't have any prots etc, all pass onto the heroes.

Just so everyone knows and this might be obvious but only one of your heroes can have infuse health or they ping pong the skill to each other, which is kinda funny.
 * Question is this: If you had an ER in your team, and no prots on your other heroes; why did you take Discord? =^/  Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg Excluded 18:36, June 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Why not? I mean the discord team was basically a condition/hex spam team with discord.  Since both human players were spirit spamming, althought we could call targets, we didn't have any condition spamming skills/spells. --Hallaloolah 04:26, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

Archive
It's not a whole team, but it's a team. Apart of it is how the AI acts when there's two. Not agreeing with it being archived. Cuilan (talk) 04:13, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * No AI with this one though, these are both player bars. IIRC, enemies won't change their behavior based on there being 2 ER bonders instead of one either. -Toraen (talk) 07:16, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * tested: enemies won’t change their behavior based on there being 2 ER bonders instead of one. I support archive Juniper real (talk) 12:49, 11 December 2018 (UTC)