Archive talk:R/A Deep Defense Tank

All Suggestions welcome
As it says under the notes, I cannot test the build. My guild is way to small and unexperienced to test it and I can't leave it. When I tried to test it in a PUG, nobody would accept a Ranger. So, I ask that you please test this build in a Deep group and give feedback and suggestions for me to change the build and make it better. Thanks.Stryk the Lightning 00:57, 25 November 2007 (CET)

And please, please, PLEASE don't just say "it wont work cuz its a ranger". Please, test it and give me some feedback.Stryk the Lightning 00:58, 25 November 2007 (CET)
 * Nobody will say that. but srsly, why "YMLAD!"? ~ ʑʌɱʌɳəəɺɨɳɳ [[Image:Zealot's Fire.jpg|19px]] (contribs) 00:59, 25 November 2007 (CET)


 * In The Deep, you have to knock down Kanaxi's aspects to deal damage to them. Also, you'd be surprised how many people would say that -.-....Stryk the Lightning 01:03, 25 November 2007 (CET)
 * Hello Stryk, as a primary ranger user myself,i was heartened to see your build however personally i think that it may work better if you replace Drydars for Lightning Reflexes.


 * I will explain my reasoning using the following key:-


 * E = Escape (Duration = 8/ recharge = 12)
 * W = Whirling (Duration = 19/ recharge = 60)
 * L = Lightning Reflexes (Duration = 11/ recharge = 30)
 * D = Drydars (Duration = 11/ recharge = 60)
 * (x) = Gaps in defense


 * Okay let me begin with your current skill stance chain:-


 * E,W,E,D,E = 54 seconds before a gap in defense


 * on a longer chain that would translate too:-


 * E,W,E,D,E,(4),E,(4),E,W,E,D,E = 116 seconds with an 8 second gap in the chain


 * If however you change drydars to lightning you would have the following chain:-


 * E,L,E,W,E,L,E, = 72 seconds before a gap in defense


 * on a longer chain that would translate too:-


 * E,L,E,W,E,L,E,(4),E,L,E,W,E,L,E = 144 seconds with a 4 second gap in the chain


 * I know this change would mean sacrificing the elemental defense but really the major job of the steel wall group is too maintain physical agro and either avoid or withstand the dmg. The elemental dmg should be being negated by your monks not by your own stances.


 * It was just a wee idea anyway. Hope this is the kind of feedback your looking for. -- Salome 23:14, 25 November 2007 (CET)


 * Yep, this is definitely the kind of feedback I am looking for. I guess I wasn't thinking at the time when I added Dryder's Defense, since I figured I didn't need an IAS. Lightning Reflexes is a better stance, so I'll make that change. Thanks :). Stryk the Lightning 02:00, 26 November 2007 (CE

i think its stupid that people make builds like this like ranger is ever gone get a group in deep lol... i mean if u have a guild that can take u a ranger as 1 of the tanks it could work with 2 tanks but otherwise its waste of char slot, and it would work only if the tanks are experts not just any paper tank lol, well i dissagree with this build cause ranger is not for deep urduz yes.User:Breaker The Warrior


 * Why thank you breaker for your considered and well thought through opinion. Now why don't you go back to eating paint and let the grown ups talk? -- Salome 04:17, 8 December 2007 (CET)


 * Sure big boy go talk, u prob one of does pugs who go and do deep runs wit wammos, and if u wana know how deep run is done maybe u could join my group and i can show u how its done. for lerners like ur self look at the raiting the build got oh well live and learn. and if i ever take a ranger might as well find a use for him, he could serve as trapper at least he can do some damage otherwise i would never take him as tank, and im sure other people would agree with my statement, but u dont cause u dont get the poinnt. and i dont mean to be rude about a ranger, rangers are great(i have 1 myself) i just dont agree with the build that a ranger to tank in deep. i would say he should get some trapps and keep 1 defense skill and he can find a good use for himself. otherwise it wont be able to tank in a room especially in kd room. Oh and even if he stays tank and u get to the nighmare room he prob will die from energy burn and all the good stuff. and monks will have to keep more eye on him so he does not let the wall down rather than the main people like the tanks.Breaker The Warrior
 * ROFL I have the statue from completing hard mode deep with my monk, ele, necro and my warrior. I've played all the roles often and i enjoy it, however anything that gives diversity to the team im in favor of, as to be honest the steel wall group is kinda dull. Also I'm a primary ranger and anything which helps get her her statue im in favour of. Now your moaning about "warriors are for this, rangers are for this etc..." shows how very little you understand the game. Your criticism isn't constructive or well thought through, also the score it achieved was probably in light of the fact that no one could get into a group to test it properly. So basically the grade its achieved is due to people like yourself judging the build without actually trying it out first. Thus i don't think the grade it achieved reflects the builds true potential. I will agree that it might be easier to tank as a Warrior, but most of the rangers i know are accustomed to having to put a bit of extra thought into what they are doing to be effective. In conclusion, go get a clue and then come back and criticize, until then your general hate speak isn't welcome. -- Salome 14:54, 18 December 2007 (CET)


 * Alright m8 looks like u want to argue, but im not going to do that because we not suppose to talk like this on a persons build where they put comments(not arguments) so why dont u come this weekend online and do a deep run with me and the people i go with. My game name its Breaker The Warrior so wisper me if ur interested in the run and u can see how its truly doneUser:Breaker

And for the build, its a nice build and fun to play so i suggest people to try it User:Breaker

1 sec intentional gaps?
Hm.. I was thinking, with the new chain, one might want to put intentional 1 second gaps in between stances to eliminate the 4 second defense gap. It might be better to have intentional 1 second gaps instead of an unintentional 4 second gap, since with that you would get steady damage in 1 second gaps, which would be easier to heal, instead of a spike on you on the gap when you are defenseless... What do you people think? If you think it would be better, I'll put that in under the stance chain.Stryk the Lightning 02:18, 26 November 2007 (CET)
 * I think it would be better but i also think thats going to make it harder to pull off. I've been testing this build in hard mode just outside seafarers rest and it seems to work-ish, although i have to be honest i haven't played as a ranger or a warrior in the deep (as i dont like warrior and i cant get a party as a ranger) so im not actually sure how the warrior build effectively works. Im gonna try and get a few friends together to help me try this out in seafarers rest (as its roughly got the same mobs as you find in the deep). also if you wanna discuss this build with me more feel free to shout me in game. my ign is salome rial. -- Salome 04:24, 26 November 2007 (CET)

Ok, I'm thinking the intentional gaps should be every time after Escape runs out... since that spaces the gap out the best.Stryk the Lightning 23:21, 30 November 2007 (CET)

Replacing Troll Unguent with Death's Charge. The monks should be supporting you anyways, and 3 second casting of a 10 second regen isn't going to help much tanking.Stryk the Lightning 03:14, 2 December 2007 (CET)

To all it may concern...
This build was created for the sole purpose getting the Kanaxai trophy (Eternal Conqueror of The Deep) in my Ranger's Hall Of Monuments. However, it seems that no group accepts a ranger, and I cannot even TEST it (So when you see this build as 'Untested', it is actually untested). Do NOT say that if I really wanted the trophy, I would get a guild/friend group to do it for me. My ranger's name is Shyke Falconseye. If you have more suggestions, want to help me test this build or even possibly even do The Deep, please send me a whisper or post here. And for the sake of the build, I ask that you PLEASE test the build before voting on it.Stryk the Lightning 03:44, 2 December 2007 (CET)

Moved to untested-testing... nobody even sees the untested-trail builds, where they would seemingly need the most attention -.-...Stryk the Lightning 04:44, 2 December 2007 (CET)

I've been down a couple of time's with a R/N BIP.Don't know what the build was but it worked ok. Faustus Junior 07:05, 26 February 2008 (EST)

^^
You made this build because you saw how my own A/W Gladiator Assassin got voted? Just out of interrest.. Adriaanz (talk *pvxcontribs ) 12:58, 2 December 2007 (CET)

I did a small edit on your page so that it says now you have 30 more against elemental. Anyway, I wouldn't put the armor as a counter. Take a look at the Gladiator Sin, who is used for the Deep and has only 70 armor w/o boosts. -- Guild of  Deals  13:40, 2 December 2007 (CET)
 * That's not true. Ranger has AL 70, Warrior 80. So Warrior has 10 more vs. Elemental (and all other). But inherit bonus in Ranger's Armor makes 100 AL vs elemental. So 100 - 80 = 20 AL. Ranger has 20 AL vs elemental more than warrior. And 30 more than assassin. &mdash; Abedeus  [[Image:User Abedeus Sig.jpg|19px]] 13:48, 2 December 2007 (CET)


 * I guess. Anyway, WTB Dwarven Stability? With high enough Deli rank you can keep up Escape for near indefinately. --[[image:GoD Sign.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  14:00, 2 December 2007 (CET)
 * I was thinking the same thing; then you have an extra skill bar slot since you wouldn't need Lightning Reflexes at all. R5 in Deldrimor lets u maintain it with an enchanting weapon and fill the remaining slot with Feigned Neutrality or Shadow Refuge so you have a more reliable heal.  Marin  Blood  bane  15:08, 2 December 2007 (CET)


 * Seems that none of you took Sentry's armor into consideration, as you are constantly in a stance. This basically makes you a backwards warrior with 80 vs all and 110 vs elemental, when the warrior has 80 vs all and 100 vs physical... Which makes me realize I did the math wrong and it is 30 more to elemental. Also, Dwarven Stability is in the variants along with Feigned, but I was doubting that would work since two of the aspects would prevent those (Aspect of Failure, Aspect of Shadows)Stryk the Lightning 16:58, 2 December 2007 (CET)

Confirmed there is no way to eliminate the 4 second stance gap and edited the build. Most of the enemies, if not all of them, should be dead by the time you get to the 4 second gap anyway..Stryk the Lightning 23:39, 2 December 2007 (CET)
 * I don't get it, why would Dwarven Stability not eliminate the 4 second gap? o.O Silavor [[Image:UserSilavorSigIcon.png]] 01:18, 4 December 2007 (CET)


 * It doesn't have Dwarven Stability in the actual build, so I didn't mention it, but it would get rid of all gaps. I sorta doubt it would work as well in the Aspect of Failure and the Aspect of Shadows.Stryk the Lightning 01:49, 4 December 2007 (CET)


 * Aspect of failure is simple, just pull out of it. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]] Ressmonkey   (talk)  02:46, 4 December 2007 (CET)

Testing, testing..?
After seeing that you are able to pull out of the Aspect of Failure, I looked over the Aspect of Shadows. It apparently works like Shadow Shroud, meaning self-only enchantments can still be cast. In which case, I noticed both Dwarven Stability and Feigned Neutrality are self-only enchantments. Though the Aspect of Shadows says you can't use enchantments (not just be un-target-able by them), on that talk page, it said a monk was still able to use Healer's Boon, which is self-only as well. Can somebody test if self-only enchantments can be cast under the Aspect of Shadows please?Stryk the Lightning 03:21, 4 December 2007 (CET)
 * Actually, I think that you can use an enchantment before you get under the effect of Aspect, i.e. few seconds after getting rezzed or with super-high reflex and 1/2 or 1/4 second cast enchantments. So it's not reliable to use enchantments under that Aspect, but it's only one room... &mdash; Abedeus  [[Image:User Abedeus Sig.jpg|19px]] 15:19, 4 December 2007 (CET)

You get a cookie
For having the first R/A build I've ever seen that does not give me an urge to react violently :) 69.40.247.197 01:15, 5 December 2007 (CET)

Feign Stability?
Say here if you want the trade out the existing stance chain for Dwarven Stability + Escape and adding in Feigned Neutrality for more defense. The downsides to having these is that you cannot tank as effectively inside the Aspects of Failure and Shadows, but it allows for an easier chain and a higher defense to everything outside of the two Aspects. Both of them can have enemies pulled out of, to an extent. Enchantment removal MIGHT also be a problem. However, I only know of Chilblains as an enchant remover in The Deep, and it isn't used in too many places in there..Stryk the Lightning 02:19, 5 December 2007 (CET)

Confirmed: Freezing Nightmares have Expunge Enchantments, Outcast Assassins have Dark Apostasy, and Outcast Deathhands have Chilblains.Stryk the Lightning 03:23, 5 December 2007 (CET)
 * Disenchantment spirits:/They're everywhere.PwN:D 08:49, 23 February 2008 (EST)
 * You can still usually affect one stance, such as Escape. --[[image:GoD Sign.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  03:36, 6 December 2007 (CET)
 * Really i dont think it needs it. As you should be able to survive the 4 second gap and i think the change over complicates matters, however if itsmore effective then im all for it. -- Salome 04:19, 8 December 2007 (CET)
 * I also think it makes the build too fragile as if the enchant is stripped your basically dead. -- Salome 04:34, 8 December 2007 (CET)

why using a ranger there are enough warriors. I think you are lazy because you dont want to make a warior
 * Why make any farming builds. Just make all people should make warriors. Need 55? Make a wammo. Need tank? Make a W/E. Need a damage dealer? Make W/P. Don't be so narrow-minded plxor ;o &mdash; Abedeus  [[Image:User Abedeus Sig.jpg|19px]] 12:02, 8 December 2007 (CET)


 * FYI, I already have a war and I have done The Deep on Hard Mode with it, so I could get some experience in The Deep before attempting it as a ranger. If you read my reason for making this, I want the Kanaxai trophy in my Ranger's hall. I could care less about my war's.Stryk the Lightning 17:49, 8 December 2007 (CET)

The warrior is the old standard, but with new skills (namely "YMLaD!"), there needs to be changes in the Steel Wall. Shove is now extremely stupid compared to using YMLaD, and a Ranger Stancer has the same blocking capabilities, while utilizing YMLaD. Anyway, he's not "too lazy" to make a warrior, he's "too innovative" to make a warrior. -- Guild of  Deals  16:02, 9 December 2007 (CET)


 * Just like I was with Adriaanz  (talk *pvxcontribs ) 18:47, 11 December 2007 (CET)

The build's rating went above 3.5... changed it to Good.Stryk the Lightning 12:00, 10 June 2008 (EDT)

Deleting a vote
I'm not sure but can one delete a vote when a person clearly has just put in a troll vote. For example, Nephotep clearly hasn't even gave this build a chance and voted without testing beforehand. Is their anyway to delete that vote or is it stuck with it? -- Salome 13:52, 12 August 2008 (EDT)

Health
Without testing I would assume the health is a problem for tanking. Warriors have high health for a reason. Death Nova and Putrid Explosion from the Outcasts deal a lot of damage and cannot be evaded with blocks. Only Protection Spirit helps there but the places those mobs appear are unluckily places where monks don't have much excess energy to maintain ps (energy+health losing room, teleporting room). That would be a reason for me not to accept a ranger in my Deep team. Of course with two warriors and the rest is decent too a ranger (or any other class) can be dragged through the deep if the sole purpose is the monument. Personally I'd rather take a barrage ranger over a tank ranger for that ^^ --Labomu 12:10, 30 October 2008 (EDT)

The cryway team
Since the steel wall team is archived, I was wondering if this would actually be able to work in the current Cryway version. At first glance, I don't see why it wouldn't.  Toraen   Dirt to da face!  20:53, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
 * this should be merged with the cryway build, because that's all its used for.-- ZZuuM   Canderouss   05:20, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

what to do with this build..
tempted to archive, unless anyone wants to work it into a puggy deep build. - Athrun Feya - 23:13, January 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's inferior to a warrior. Force pugs to be less bad. Life   Guardian  00:06, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Archive then? Say its not really suitable for the cryway team, unlike steel wall? - Athrun Feya - 00:08, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * That, or just say "Forcing pugs to be less bad". I personally like my reasoning :> Life   Guardian  00:13, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Btw, pugs still run steel wall, they can't do anything else. Life   Guardian  00:13, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm actually surprised pugs still run deep at all. It was completely empty a year ago. - Athrun Feya - 09:46, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * You sometimes see a guildteam there - usually with a mixture of sins, warriors, rangers, rits, eles and monks. I doubt they get very far. A ndy 19:03, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

Archive 194.252.105.12 16:19, April 8, 2010 (UTC)