Archive talk:A/D Grenth's Grasp Assassin/Archive 1

Current Talk

Discussion
Trampling Ox is gonna be one hit by the A-Net Nerf Hammer of doom. --Hikari 10:43, 24 August 2007 (CEST)

Don't know if you guys accept EoTN builds yet, its the preview weekend, so move this back to trials if you want to wait for the full release. --Hikari 10:57, 24 August 2007 (CEST)

Don't think it's in a policy, but I would move it to Trials all the same. Tycn 14:00, 24 August 2007 (CEST)


 * It works well. It's like the SP sins, but WTB Moar Horn(Drop Blades of Steel) for moar KD Lock. [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] frvwfr2  (T/C/Sysop) 16:49, 24 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Wtf? &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 16:52, 24 August 2007 (CEST)

Double horns is nasty, but I say it's redundant, also the way I have the combo set up right now, all 4 skills are on an 8 second recharge timer, so I like the synergy =P --Hikari 21:24, 24 August 2007 (CEST)

This is actually really really good. We messed it round with our guild (me and frv) and I think this is the best thing you can do with the idea. Rawrawr Dinosaur  \m/  03:46, 25 August 2007 (CEST)

Highly recommend falling lotus though, with it you can easily pull off a combo every 8 seconds (which is one of the major advantages along with not requiring a hex) Rawrawr Dinosaur  \m/  04:02, 25 August 2007 (CEST)

Wow I'm sleepy. I meant 12 seconds (recharge of FLS) I'll stfu now. Rawrawr Dinosaur  \m/  04:05, 25 August 2007 (CEST)

It's alright =P, I didn't have any energy issues with +5 Energy daggers and radiants, but if you like Falling Lotus, then I'll slap it under the bar. --Hikari 04:42, 25 August 2007 (CEST)

Another addition is that this works even if get RCed after GPS. Read Trampling Ox talk page. -- frvwfr2  (T/C/Sysop) 05:20, 25 August 2007 (CEST)

good damage, buttt... NO HEALING


 * Another example is... SHADOW PRISON ASSASSIN!!! --[[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] frvwfr2  (T/C/Sysop) 02:37, 27 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Those are good. They kill dummies well. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 03:14, 27 August 2007 (CEST)

GW:EN Note
Builds featuring GW:EN skills should remain in the Trial Stage, and should not be voted upon, until the finalization of those skills. *Defiant Elements*  +talk  07:24, 27 August 2007 (CEST)


 * Which is now. I'll move to testing.  —ǥrɩɳsɧƿoɲ  〚 ŞƳŞŌƤ 〛 05:25, 1 September 2007 (CEST)

in the AB variants, i'd suggest a lead attack followed by Jungle Strike instead of Golden Phoenix Strike. This would allow for more damage and the basic combo could still be executed even without Grenth's Grasp. Golden Lotus Strike could be an OK lead, making up for the additional skill in the chain with more e management. --Kyrax 19:21, 6 September 2007 (CEST)
 * Bring a shadowstep please.--Relyk 22:55, 11 January 2008 (EST)

Dual Attack
I think Critical Strike could go well there. It gives you E-Management to use the combo every 8 secs, so it's less spike but more pressure. What do you think? frvwfr2  (T/C/Sysop) 16:33, 8 September 2007 (CEST)
 * Just grab falling lotus as the second offhand. –Ichigo724[[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 19:54, 8 September 2007 (CEST)
 * But then 12 sec recharge, which messes me up sometimes when I try to do my chain, but don't have a Falling recharged... [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] frvwfr2  (T/C/Sysop) 20:07, 8 September 2007 (CEST)
 * When I run this, I use:
 * It means you can spike every 15 seconds, but inbetween each spike you can have a 'mini spike' of Phoenix>Tramping. I found that more than quick enough for RA and TA. [[Image:Ibreaktoilets_Signature.jpg|User:Ibreaktoilets]]Ibreaktoilets 20:22, 8 September 2007 (CEST)

lose whirling charge, gain pious haste. 18:23, 12 September 2007 (CEST)
 * IAS –Ichigo724[[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 18:26, 12 September 2007 (CEST)
 * Why bother. And i'm not stupid, i know its for the ias.[[Image:Darksig.JPG]] 18:27, 12 September 2007 (CEST)
 * Pious haste is pretty pointless, just switch to spear/shield and chuck one to cripple em. –Ichigo724[[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 18:34, 12 September 2007 (CEST)
 * Fully maintable move speed is nice... especially when your only enchant(unless your aegised or somesuch) is a 5 recharge.[[Image:Darksig.JPG]] 19:00, 12 September 2007 (CEST)


 * Grenths Grasp is a 10sec recharge, and pious is perty energy heavy. --Hikari 05:50, 16 September 2007 (CEST)

Falling Lotus should replace Falling Spider for sure. I run full radiants and I still run out of energy, especially if I fail a spike and need to refresh Grenth's Grasp. The biggest energy killer here is Whirling Charge tbh; I wish there was a less expensive IAS boost. I was also thinking maybe just removing it for DC or something of the sort cause I hate builds that don't shadowstep (OH HEY A SIN IS RUNNING AT ME! LOL PREKITE!). Yea Whirling Charge shores it up a bit, but like I said, it hurts the energy. Yesmilord 10:00, 24 September 2007 (CEST)

Golden fang strike > Impale?
Golden fang strike seems to be bugged right now - it can be used anytime (with or without a lead) and still cause the deep wound....if it's used without a lead attack it recharges instantly too. It ALWAYS causes the deep wound as long as you're enchanted.....whether you're blinded, or it's blocked, etc, they'll get the DW. You can do your chain normally and use it after Blades of steel. I prefer it over Impale since you don't need to put any points in Deadly arts and it recharges instantly so your whole attack chain recharges in 8 secs. And of course if the deep wound is removed, you can reapply it instantly. P A R A S I T I C 02:17, 29 September 2007 (CEST)

Intersting bug, but no. Impale has a 1/4th activation time and doesn't require melee, this build doesn't have room for an enchantment really either. --Hikari 04:40, 29 September 2007 (CEST)
 * It already has one. –Ichigo724[[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 04:52, 29 September 2007 (CEST)
 * That made me laugh. P A R A S I T I C 05:09, 29 September 2007 (CEST)

...I feel like a TOTAL idiot...I thought I was talking on the SP Sin page. --Hikari 06:09, 29 September 2007 (CEST)

I still love SP Sins more.

I thought about this skill for the build earlier. Impale is 1 sec activation now, so it's not faster than an attack with 25% IAS. You would have the Deep Wound with EVERY attack chain, depending on energy, by taking Golden Fang Strike. Zuranthium 11:12, 19 February 2008 (EST)

My AB version
[build prof=A/D dag=11+1 cri=10+2 win=10][Golden Lotus Strike][Jungle Strike][Trampling Ox][Falling Spider][Twisting Fangs][Featherfoot Grace][Grenth's Grasp][Natural Healing][/build]

I subbed out pheonix for GLS(energy for GG and the attack + w/e crit energy you get)and JS (faux-IAS) and then TFs for DW and Bleeding (I don't like impale XD).

Featherfoot Grace seems to be a very good IRS and good at reducing conditions, as well at the +113 health from Natural Healing. I like this version a lot more, cause you only need a min energy of 9 to do it (GG is 5 and the pips of energy regen give you 5 +11 from GLS and any crits, that's enough to do all the way to falling spider, after that TFs is only 1-3 second wait, depending on your Crit. energy back during the combo.DSL 01:17, 31 October 2007 (CET)

and another version
yay — Skakid9090 03:25, 1 November 2007 (CET)

That's the build I'm having fun with in RA/TA every now and then, just thought I'll post it here. Almost the frontpage version with some slight adjustments. I'm using Dagger Mastery 10+1+1 and Deadly Arts 6 which gives a much better Impale. It lacks an IAS which doesn't hurt the spike too much but is annoying if you have a Ranger sitting on you interrupting your combo. Harrier's Haste doesn't burn up your energy like Whirling Charge does and it usually triggers on GPS, the first Ox and 1-2 times on BoS, giving you some nice additional damage. The better e-management really pays off imho, I'm running full survivor/nightstalker's insignia (depending on mood) and usually have enough energy to spike as soon as GPS is recharged, so with some skill in target selection (low health opponents when impale is recharging, monks/full health foes with impale ready) it basically comes down to a dead guy every 8-10 seconds; this build's ability to crush through any team without excessive blocking skills is really scary. --Makku 15:22, 1 November 2007 (CET)

Just an idea
Equip the spear with a cold damage mod so you can cripple foes at longer range? Unreal Havoc  03:39, 1 November 2007 (CET)
 * Attack skills. — Skakid9090 03:40, 1 November 2007 (CET)

Damn, nevermind, lol. Unreal Havoc  03:42, 1 November 2007 (CET)

what do you think of this?:P [build prof=A/D dag=11+1+1 cri=12+1 win=6][Unsuspecting Strike][Lotus Strike][Trampling Ox][Falling Spider][Twisting Fangs][Whirling Charge][Grenth's Grasp][Resurrection Signet][/build] Unsuspecting deals LOT of damage, you have better energy management, even if you have 5 attack skills you have IAS, all in all you deal lot more damage than the original build :> 86.123.172.165 21:59, 5 November 2007 (CET)
 * Recharge. –Ichigo724[[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 22:04, 5 November 2007 (CET)


 * Impale has 15s recharge as well. — Skakid9090 22:05, 5 November 2007 (CET)


 * Don't have to impale every time. Might as well go 20rch and the generic SP sin if you're on 15rch anyway. –Ichigo724[[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 22:19, 5 November 2007 (CET)

just try it and tell me which is better XD 86.123.172.165 22:16, 5 November 2007 (CET)


 * The one without 5 attack skills. –Ichigo724[[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 22:19, 5 November 2007 (CET)

Also: this one only uses 3 energy less than the one on the main page. (22 as compared to 24) –Ichigo724 22:22, 5 November 2007 (CET)

5 attack skills without IAS = BAD here you use them all in 3 seconds...and you 90% kill your target :>

well the one from the page has 4 attack skills too + impale...and it's slower than this one  Sabin O 22:27, 5 November 2007 (CET)
 * Oh? fafaik, 4,21s < 4,95s, making all skills hit in 3,22s compared to 3,96s. –Ichigo724[[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 22:32, 5 November 2007 (CET)

Replace the twisting fangs with Death Blossom since it has a quicker recharge, and conditions wont be needed since the target is essentialy already dead, and the added bonus dammage will finish him off (most of the time)
 * And that is why we have Blades of Steel--Relyk 22:58, 11 January 2008 (EST)

Nerfed
The change to impale doesn't matter too much, however trampling ox used to be much more powerful, (they knocked off 18 dmg). So is this build still viable? Sir On The Edge 19:57, 14 November 2007 (CET)
 * Considering how badly every other assassin build besides assacasters got fucked, I'd say yeah. --71.229.204.25 20:51, 14 November 2007 (CET)
 * SA sin is fine. - Rawrawr  20:53, 14 November 2007 (CET)
 * Just tried it in RA (slightly moddified) and I got 6 consecutive wins with a team without a healer, so I'd say it's still good.--El Nazgir 21:07, 14 November 2007 (CET)
 * I got glad point with mending HH wammo, does that make that good...? - Rawrawr  21:08, 14 November 2007 (CET)
 * SA sin? --71.229.204.25 21:12, 14 November 2007 (CET)
 * Shattering assault. - Rawrawr  21:13, 14 November 2007 (CET)
 * Oh. Yeah, those are still alive. --71.229.204.25 21:14, 14 November 2007 (CET)

HB tag
I run this build in HB with great success winning rated games. Should we add it here? It applies cripple and KD, which are very good in HB especially with a heater. Master Gladius 00:32, 8 December 2007 (CET)

Except it's cold damage, which is bad with MoR. — Tycn (talk *pvxcontribs ) 00:53, 8 December 2007 (CET)

against what rank players does it win against?--Drowning Pigeon 10:43, 28 December 2007 (EST)

Whirling charge??
WHy?? there are other running skills
 * Because it's not only running but also increases attack speed--Makku 18:18, 15 January 2008 (EST)

This is the build i use for AB, it does pretty well and has a HEAL which is important in AB as monks don't normally give a shit if you tell them to heal u. [build prof=A/D dagger_mastery=11+1+1 critical_strikes=11+1 windpray=6 shadow_arts=6+1][golden phoenix strike][trampling ox][falling lotus strike][Falling Spider][death blossom][whirling charge][Grenth's Grasp][shadow refuge][/build] this way u have energy management and can also poison, u also dont have to wait 12 seconds for FLS to recharge, u can just use FS. also if one of ure teammates has earthbind then u can actually use both FLS and FS. I Am Jebus 22:52, 17 January 2008 (EST)

lol i was using this build once and an ally warrior helped me to fight, he knocked the enemy down, trampling ox did not b/c he was already knocked down, and when i used FLS he got back up already. friggin wammo messed me up..... also ive found this to easily solo the necro and mez shrines if u use shadow first, let it b stripped so the mez waste shatter enchant, then use grenths. I Am Jebus 22:56, 17 January 2008 (EST)

One of thse gay sinsplit top20 guilds ran this onj saturday:

i missed the last skill and forgive me but i'm not going to studiously study that sort of shit. 17:10, 21 January 2008 (EST)

Better Version For AB?
[build prof=A/D dagger_mastery=11+1+1 critical_strikes=11+1 windpray=6 shadow_arts=6+1][golden phoenix strike][trampling ox][Falling Spider][Death Blossom][Critical Strike][whirling charge][Grenth's Grasp][shadow refuge][/build] so this way there is healing and e-management with SR and CS. This is what i use. I Am Jebus 17:34, 21 January 2008 (EST)
 * No DW = fail tbh. --71.229 17:45, 21 January 2008 (EST)
 * no it doesnt, with the awesome (AoE) damage of Death Blossom, it will more than make up for DW.
 * Yes it does and no it won't. --71.229 17:58, 21 January 2008 (EST)
 * No it doesn't and yes it will. I Am Jebus 18:03, 21 January 2008 (EST)
 * LOsing DW is only even close to viable in pve. 71.229 is right.[[Image:Dark0805sig2.PNG]] 18:22, 21 January 2008 (EST)
 * OK FINE!!! YOU WIN!!! Just replace Death Blossom with Twisting fangs or Impale. I Am Jebus 20:00, 21 January 2008 (EST)
 * YEA and let's SCREAM IT OUT LOUD!!!-- Korineczek --( Toalk -- Koantribooshns ) 10:42, 23 January 2008 (EST)
 * Owned himynameisbobbyjoe 23:23, 25 January 2008 (EST)

Pious Assault
Instead of impale, it would remove Grenths Grasp, but foe would still be crippled and you can re-apply if needed; probably won't need to with 1/2 dmg + deepwound.- &#91;&#91;User:Jak123X&#124;&lt;font color=red&gt;&#39;&#39;&#39;Jak123X&#39;&#39;&#39;&lt;/font&gt;]]]] 00:51, 25 January 2008 (EST)
 * No point. – Ichigo 724 [[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 09:09, 25 January 2008 (EST)
 * On that i disagree. Pious is better than impale by a mile at this point, and gg has a low recharge. rofl spikes include falling>pious>BoS[[Image:Dark0805sig2.PNG]] 11:27, 25 January 2008 (EST)
 * Energy's tight enough when spamming the chain. – Ichigo 724 [[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 11:46, 25 January 2008 (EST)
 * Impale costs the same.[[Image:Dark0805sig2.PNG]] 11:48, 25 January 2008 (EST)
 * No it doesn't. Also: reapplying GG is extra energy. – Ichigo 724 [[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 11:49, 25 January 2008 (EST)
 * Oh shit, you'ze right. indeed.[[Image:Dark0805sig2.PNG]] 11:53, 25 January 2008 (EST)

5 more energy, faster chain. You still need to wait 20 sec for IAS to recharge. If you run into e-probs, run it with lotus. It's more raw dmg anyways. Swiftslash \\  (contributions  * sandbox ) 12:11, 25 January 2008 (EST)
 * If you want faster deep wound run this with a 5 Attack Skill chain including golden fang strike, or better yet, just use twisting fangs. --Hikari 16:04, 25 January 2008 (EST)
 * Pious added to variants, don't know if wanted on main bar. [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] <font color=#6e8b3d>frvwfr2  (T/C/Sysop) 16:10, 25 January 2008 (EST)
 * (EC)Yea, Pious Assault doesn't work here. It's just too taxing energy-wise. -<font color="Black">Shen 16:11, 25 January 2008 (EST)
 * Pious is faster than a reg 5 attack chain. Also is more dmg than twisting (due to BoS). Pious is betta IMO. Pious should be standard, if you can't handle energy, bring lotus instead of spider. Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] (<font color="Black">contributions  * sandbox ) 16:12, 25 January 2008 (EST)
 * That's a terrible alternative. This builds strength comes from 8 second recharge chain. Energy is tough enough as it is. -<font color="Black">Shen 16:14, 25 January 2008 (EST)
 * That would also have same recharge, but shorter recharge DW... 15s Impale is 8? [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] <font color=#6e8b3d>frvwfr2  (T/C/Sysop) 16:17, 25 January 2008 (EST)
 * It's 12 second recharge spike chainas opposed to 8 seconds for this version. And you'd need to reapply GG every time you want to spike. You trade 8 seconds spike, with DW every 2 spikes, for a 12 second spike. That's a huge difference, and the reason I'm with the 8 seconds spike is should the spike fail, it's only 8 seconds. -<font color="Black">Shen 16:21, 25 January 2008 (EST)
 * I'm opposed to a Pious Assault Variant. -<font color="Black">Shen 16:11, 25 January 2008 (EST)
 * Here's my recommendation: Change main bar to FLS, instead of FSS. Then put Pious in. [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] <font color=#6e8b3d>frvwfr2  (T/C/Sysop) 16:15, 25 January 2008 (EST)
 * DIdnt I just say that? :D Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] (<font color="Black">contributions  * sandbox ) 16:17, 25 January 2008 (EST)

Just put the FLS/pious as a mini skill bar in variants. The end. – Ichigo 724  23:38, 25 January 2008 (EST)
 * Has been mentioned. -<font color="Black">Shen 16:14, 26 January 2008 (EST)
 * pious is normal attack time now, removing from variants.--[[Image:Rebirth Infidel.jpg|21px]] <font color="Black">aesthetic

Shadow Steps
With shadow steps, there is an element of surprise and a better way to attack the casters. With just Whirling Charge, i get crippled by a warrior or hexed by a mesmer with crippling anguish or sumthing. wat i use now in RA, TA, and AB is this: [build prof=A/D dagger=10+1+1 criticalstrikes=11+1 windpray=6 shadowarts=8+1][golden phoenix strike][trampling ox][falling spider][blades of steel][death's charge][shadow refuge][grenth's grasp][whirling charge][/build] So precast GG and cover with SR, shadowstep in, and begin attack chain, using WC if necessary. When in need of desperate self heal and SR isnt healing enough, use deaths charge on a guy with near-full hp to regain health and run away with WC. Comments? I Am Jebus 15:07, 27 January 2008 (EST)
 * Res. – Ichigo 724 [[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 15:09, 27 January 2008 (EST)
 * DW Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] (<font color="Black">contributions  * sandbox ) 15:14, 27 January 2008 (EST)
 * Non-fail. – Ichigo 724 [[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 15:15, 27 January 2008 (EST)
 * res sig instead of WC for RA/TA/AB. I dont use DW, i have enough pressure already. btw, does any1 know how to effectively counter SS/insidious parasite while still contributing to the battle? I Am Jebus 15:19, 27 January 2008 (EST)
 * "I dont use DW". You made me lol irl. That's uncommon tbh. You need DW or you're pretty frecked. Also dropping WC for RA/TA is bad, bc you want the IAS/IMS. Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] (<font color="Black">contributions  * sandbox ) 15:47, 27 January 2008 (EST)
 * Well, tbh, i dont use DW b/c it makes me put points into deadly arts, for impale, or into scythe mastery, for pious assault. I agree that it makes the target that much easier to kill, but I prefer the up to 160+ damage of Blades of Steel (with double strike) and a shadow step. Some people run it with Twisting Fangs, but i just dont. And dropping WC isnt that bad, cause it costs 10 energy, and only lasts 9 seconds. A rez sig is better cause it can rez your monk, your nuker, or others. Sometimes, i just do RA without a rezsig, but usually, i bring rez. I Am Jebus 16:38, 27 January 2008 (EST)

Ressig is a must for RA. More than a self heal or a shadowstep. Also you don't need to invest much into scythe nor deadly for Pious/Impale to work well. It's for spikes anyways. Swiftslash \\  (<font color="Black">contributions  * sandbox ) 16:40, 27 January 2008 (EST)
 * k, ure decision. I Am Jebus 16:51, 27 January 2008 (EST)
 * Sin builds without deepwound are either Moebius Strike pressure builds or they fail flat out. Shadowsteps and self heals are mentioned, and if they are not mentioned I'll add them, in the variants. --Hikari 01:56, 31 January 2008 (EST)

vigor rune
you didnt put a vigor rune in the equip template. i dunno how to change that or i would
 * Its a given now a days, that you want a superior vigor in for basically any set up. ( 55 or 105 Farmers are an exception ) --Hikari 01:01, 5 February 2008 (EST)
 * It's always been a given... -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 01:04, 5 February 2008 (EST)

Maybe Trampling Ox nerf?
The first comment, made by Hikari, says that Trampling could be nerfed. How, in any way, could they nerf this effectively? Only effective nerfs for this that i see is extending recharge or switching the Crippled requirement to DW or sumthing. I Am Jebus 22:10, 8 February 2008 (EST)
 *  Trampling Ox (Dual Attack) Must follow an off-hand attack.  If it hits, you deal 1..2 damage.  Target foe is cleansed of all conditions and hexes and has all their attributes boosted by 5..15 for the next sixty minutes.  You and all allies within earshot explode. --71.229 22:15, 8 February 2008 (EST)
 * Omg, I love it, Kamikadze-way ftw :) And it betters says like that: "...it hits, you take 15..60 damage..."
 * lol. But seriously, how could ANet nerf this in a way that makes sense? I Am Jebus 23:13, 8 February 2008 (EST)
 * 10..20 damage, same as Horns. Remember, if it's used, it's overpowered.  And remember, Hikari made that comment just as Nightfall skills were starting to be used intelligently, and it looked pretty sodding overpowered back then. --71.229 23:34, 8 February 2008 (EST)
 * u have to admit, most people dont use Trampling for the damage, they use it for the KD. Damage reduction wont affect it by much. I Am Jebus 11:08, 10 February 2008 (EST)
 * Nobody runs Horns anymore, even though its condition is easier to achieve. --71.229 17:03, 13 February 2008 (EST)


 * The knockdown is the important reason for Trampling Ox, but without damage it's not a worthy skill for the skillbar. God  box   12:55, 14 February 2008 (EST)


 * I made that comment during the EoTN Preview Jebus. Hikari 00:48, 7 March 2008 (EST)
 *  Trampling Ox (Dual Attack) Must follow an off-hand attack.  If it hits, you deal 0..1 damage.  Target foe and all other foes are cleansed of all conditions and hexes and have all their attributes boosted by 5..15 for the next sixty minutes.  You and all allies within earshot explode and all ressurection attempts on you fail. That's more like it! --Ulterion 12:50, 15 November 2008 (EST)

Perfect think..
thanks for this build,and users for your opinion. certainly I prefer using deaths charge in AB. because if you were winning in ab everybody wants to escape.You can shadow step,take crippling.Enemy cant go out.

I think guiding hands isn't useful.Because it finishs immediate and if you get used to this build you can interrupt guardian :)

I changed the equipment to 15^enchanted from 15^50 for reasons that must be obvious.

Skill bar change?
I've found this to be more effective:

Any thoughts? <font color = "#000">Klumpeet .<font color = "#C09F1C"> ŧ .<font color = "#C09F1C"> ¢. 02:52, 9 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Slower and costs more energy yet also dealing less damage.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  06:44, 9 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Slower? Jungle Strike adds 0.37 to the spike, but there is no impale so a second is removed from the end making it faster. 5 more energy isn't bad, and if you have trouble you can use Falling Lotus Strike instead of spider. Also, with the damage you are gaining 50 extra from Jungle Strike and losing 82 from using Twisting Fangs so it is 32 less damage, but the spike is finished before they can stand up so i find it is much more successful. [[image:klumpeetsignature.jpg|19px]] <font color = "#000">Klumpeet .<font color = "#C09F1C"> ŧ .<font color = "#C09F1C"> ¢ . 04:03, 19 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Recharge time.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  04:39, 19 April 2008 (EDT)
 * Yes it has a recharge time... [[image:klumpeetsignature.jpg|19px]] <font color = "#000">Klumpeet .<font color = "#C09F1C"> ŧ .<font color = "#C09F1C"> ¢ . 14:18, 19 April 2008 (EDT)

AB Version?
For an AB Version, why not put 10 attributes into deadly arts, then make critical strikes 8, and take Signet of Toxic Shock instead of Resurrection Signet? [build prof=A/D dagger_mastery=11+1+1 critical_strikes=8+1 windpray=6 deadly_arts=10+1][golden phoenix strike][trampling ox][Falling Spider][Blades of Steel][Impale][Signet Of Toxic Shock][Whirling Charge][Grenth's Grasp][/build] Thonyonline 18:33, 29 April 2008 (GMT)
 * Because energy is a good thing.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  18:42, 29 April 2008 (EDT)

why not juss use dash??
self heal is great if ur not confident in how u use the build(or if ur facing sumone more experienced) but i AB 24/7 for my guild and i've gotten so use to this build that i juss use dash..idk if there is a bettr choice or not but it works out pretty well
 * Dash for res sig in AB is pretty generic, but not for whirling charge, IAS is nice / Fros  T  alk  \ 01:50, 15 June 2008 (EDT)
 * i use sharpen dags to shave off(no pun intended)an extra second of killing time for AB i also use a cold spear of enchantin to cripple from far away bloodblade
 * how do you do that with no spear attack skills?--Reason.decrystallized 21:14, 15 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I was thinking the same thing, I lol'd. – Ichigo 724 [[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 23:40, 15 June 2008 (EDT)
 * oh dam...well...so much for that...anywho screw the spear..but sharpen dags ftwbloodblade
 * Yea, go 6dps... / Fros  T  alk  \ 03:34, 19 June 2008 (EDT)
 * removable 6 DPS that is.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  04:15, 19 June 2008 (EDT)
 * just take seeping wound and you've got some serious pressure.--Reason.decrystallized 11:34, 19 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Wrong elite. ~ [[Image:ZamaneeJinnSig.jpg|18px]] ʑʌɱʌɳəəɺɨɳɳ ( point out my idiocy ) 12:44, 23 June 2008 (EDT)
 * totally worth it, though.--Reason.decrystallized 12:56, 23 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Lolwut? &not; Klump  eet  16:58 {GMT} 23-06-<font face="Times">MMVIII
 * Yeah, even though the build couldn't function AT ALL without an enchant, functionality < Seeping Wound.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  14:34, 23 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Healing hands>seeping wound, imo ~ [[Image:ZamaneeJinnSig.jpg|18px]] Zamanee ( point out my idiocy ) 20:21, 23 June 2008 (EDT)
 * OMG thats genius. Healing Hands as the enchant for this build! But then again, mind as well just take mending rite?--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  20:30, 23 June 2008 (EDT)
 * frees up your elite slot. but with mending, you don't even need an elite!--Reason.decrystallized 20:38, 23 June 2008 (EDT)
 * too true. ~ [[Image:ZamaneeJinnSig.jpg|18px]] Zamanee ( point out my idiocy ) 21:03, 23 June 2008 (EDT)

Update this shit
Tbh, Spikes with Impale are bad, too slow, this needs twisting fangs. Why not just run a 5 skill chain, Unsuspecting, Jungle, Trampling, Falling Lotus, Twisting with this is fucking powerful.  Frosty  No U!  20:52, 19 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Why don't you just fucking change it because it's a wiki. Brandnew.  20:53, 19 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Because it is good to get a general concensus of what people want or would like, I was thinking this.

If you feel energy is too heavy jungle could be dropped for lotus but with full radiant this shit ownz.  Frosty  No U!  20:55, 19 July 2008 (EDT)
 * nowai, jungle is like, an additional hundred damages. just stop being a fucking noob and l2p if energy is too heavy on that bar. Brandnew.  20:57, 19 July 2008 (EDT)
 * I was saying, because some noob sins take survivor's, and they wouldn't be able to complete the chain, but yea, Unsuspecting + Jungle is fucking hawt  Frosty  No U!  20:59, 19 July 2008 (EDT)
 * I used that bar from the start tbh. Impale is srsly meh when u want a fast spike. -- Sazzy  21:09, 19 July 2008 (EDT)
 * May just make a new build, when Imaple was imba, the main bar was awesome, but not that awesome now.  Frosty  No U!  21:12, 19 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Build's still fine. Leave it alone. If you change the build to the twisting fangs crap it loses the only reason it was good in the first place: Fast Recharging spike.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  22:05, 19 July 2008 (EDT)
 * You have to wait for Whirling anyway... without whirling you can hardly call it a "spike"  Frosty  No U!  22:09, 19 July 2008 (EDT)


 * Impale and TF both have 15 rech. I'm lost tbh. --84.24.206.123 22:18, 19 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Ant that too, 5 attack chain is just much better.  Frosty  No U!  22:28, 19 July 2008 (EDT)
 * You don't need whirling for the spike to work. Neither Impale.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  07:39, 20 July 2008 (EDT)

Tested the above build. It is much more effective than the one listed. I think it should be changed.I've encountered very few players who can survive the spike. Most of the time they are dead in <4 seconds.BTW its also really fun to play. Psychiatric Consultant  19:37, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
 * yeah, it works, but the point here is that it has twice the recharge.--Reason.decrystallized 19:50, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Use Unsuspecting>Jungle->Trampling while you wait. =P ــмıкε  нaшк  20:22, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
 * true, but not nearly as strong.--Reason.decrystallized 20:57, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Spam Unsuspecting after that? =O ــмıкε  нaшк  20:59, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
 * zomg energy!--Reason.decrystallized 21:00, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Switch to your Zealous set, and you only have to hit like fifty times per second! You actually might be able to with some good crits, just not on recharge. ــмıкε  нaшк  21:04, 21 July 2008 (EDT)
 * you could probably handle an in-between pressure spike with the first three skills just fine. but spamming unsuspecting is right out.--Reason.decrystallized 21:56, 21 July 2008 (EDT)

Why Whirling Charge
Why is whirling charge in here? At 6 wind prayers harriar's haste gives an extra second and doesn't require an enchantment...
 * IAS???  Frosty  No U!  23:00, 24 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Ya, so you can kill faster. XD The +damage from Harrier's Haste is nice, though. ــмıкε  нaшк  23:01, 24 July 2008 (EDT)
 * IAS???  Frosty  No U!  23:02, 24 July 2008 (EDT)
 * I'm sorry I should have read the above post. My bad...
 * I use Harrier's haste for the energy, but the lack of IAS is a bit annoying.

Archive?
-- L  R  20:01, 29 July 2008 (EDT)
 * ...Why? It works perfectly fine. --[[Image:GoD Wario Sig.PNG]]<font color="Black"> * Wah <font color="DAA520">Wah  Wah! * 20:03, 29 July 2008 (EDT)

i was thinking the same thing, there are better spikes now like back breaker and beguiling haze spikeSaintsfan 16:21, 30 July 2008 (EDT)
 * I just think the spike needs to be updated, tbh.


 * [build prof=A/D CriticalStrikes=11+1+1 DaggerMastery=12+1 WindPrayers=6][Unsuspecting Strike][Jungle Strike][Trampling Ox][Falling Spider][Blades of Steel][Whirling Charge][Grenth's Grasp][Resurrection Signet][/build]
 * [build prof=A/D CriticalStrikes=11+1+1 DaggerMastery=12+1 WindPrayers=6][Golden Fox Strike][Golden Fang Strike][Trampling Ox][Falling Spider][Death Blossom][Whirling Charge][Grenth's Grasp][Resurrection Signet][/build]


 * The first one is probably one of the strongest and fastest DW-less spike there is, because it'll easily deal 550-600 damage and it has Jungle Strike (quick attack). The second, however, is better for guaranteeing a kill because it has a back-up chain (Golden Fox Strike->Golden Fang Strike->Death Blossom, just take Zealous Dagger for this). So, the second one's chain would be something like Golden Fox Strike->Golden Fang Strike->Trampling Ox->Falling Spider->Death Blossom->(Golden Fox Strike->Golden Fang Strike->Death Blossom). The full chain (with the back-up included) will day over 650 damage on average, and your IAS should last just long enough for the extended chain. ــмıкε  нaшк  16:43, 30 July 2008 (EDT)
 * What's ur obsession with chains within themselves, just takes BoS. and with GG I would love Unsuspecting tbh  Frosty  No U!  16:48, 30 July 2008 (EDT)
 * I don't like auto-attacking, that's all. With that smaller chain, you can still dish out 40-60 DPS (with Deep Wound) between your knockdown chains, which is pretty nice. ــмıкε  нaшк  16:49, 30 July 2008 (EDT)
 * The first one is a little energy heavy, though, so you'd probably want to take either Lotus Strike or Falling Lotus Strike in there. ــмıкε  нaшк  17:10, 30 July 2008 (EDT)

Signet of Malice
... should be in the variants, if not on the main bar. Remove at least 1, but often 4+ conditions depending on build version, moment and allies in these days' conditions galore. Dionyssios 06:36, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
 * ...For what? If we take it we lose either deep wound, IAS/IMS or functionality. If anything Assassin's Remedy would be better since you can cover it with GG.--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]<font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva">Assassin  06:49, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
 * You should also kill your target before Signet of Malice can take advantage of the three conditions this build uses. =/ ــмıкε  нaшк  07:09, 17 September 2008 (EDT)

You can't kill anything when blind or crippled. And was thinking about Twisting Fangs and Signet of Malice instead of Steel Blades and Impale. Free and fast condition removal is heaven in the game I play (Remedy sucks against crippled, costs 10, and can be interrupted). Even the worst RA team will put conditions on you, hell even NPCs will. Save the signet for blind or crippled though, or for moments with 6 conditions on you - it happens you know. Dionyssios 04:57, 18 September 2008 (EDT)
 * But you still have to get two attacks in to make sure that the blind will be removed. So if you are blind from the start, there is nothing you can do about it. It's better to just play skillfully then take skills that are easier and take less skill. Most blind bots are terrible in that they are only reactive, not proactive. If you attack a blind bot, you will be blind, if you don't you might not be. Also if you don't have a monk against a team like they, it doesn't matter if you have blind removal or not. -- ツ <font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva" color ="black">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva" color="black">Assassin  07:02, 18 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Stop being bad Dionyssios. This build has FOCUS.  Meaning it's devoted to KILLING. Not stopping mid-chain to remove weakness off of you.  Stop trying to add to an already great build.  Mr.   Big  07:40, 18 September 2008 (EDT)

Signet of Malice is 1/4 of a second without aftercast pal, calling your blindness for your monk to remove takes more time. If this wasn't a good build I wouldn't bother. If you're up against condition galore you can take this largely underestimated little skill which is perfect for condition inflicting builds. If not you can try to run around crippled hitting air while blind. Remedy is not an option in this build, SoM is. All I'm saying is it deserves a place as an optional, more than a self heal does. Dionyssios 05:00, 19 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Explain to me how Remedy isn't 1000x better at removing blind. If you're crippled, you can't get conditions on them anyway, same with blind. With Remedy, you can easily remove blind, and can remove cripple somewhat.-- ツ <font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva" color ="black">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva" color="black">Assassin  05:30, 19 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Sig of malice does have aftercast... -- Frosty [[Image:Mini england.jpg|19px]] 11:27, 19 September 2008 (EDT)

In AB
[build prof=assas/dervi dagger=11+1+1 critic=12+1 windpr=6][whirling charge][golden phoenix strike][trampling ox][falling spider][Horns of the Ox][Falling Lotus Strike][Twisting Fangs][grenths grasp][/build] =wtfomgbbqpwnt - <font color="#620460">We <font color="#620460">Heart <font color="#620460">Katamari  18:29, 13 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Me no likey conditional KDs on enemies actions (namely Horns of the Ox). Karate Jesus 18:32, 13 October 2008 (EDT)
 * The spike has an 8-second recharge, and 90% of foes in AB have under 550 health, why would you need a loooong chain like that? -- The preceding srsly srs comment was added by Itokaru   18:36, 13 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Yeah, I thought the same way a little while ago, but I've been using HotO like crazy past couple of days and it works wonders in disorganized PvP. Most spellies will start running as soon as they see a Sin (therefor helping you). Also, I've found even when the only two targets to spike, were side by side that the one I'm not targeting will run away in fear of Death Blossom's AoE or just in general fear of getting spiked. Another thing about the build itself rather than HotO, though, is that if target foe is adjacent to an ally, you can still spike that target with about the same amount of damage that the original build uses. I usually use something like Golden Phoenix->Trampling Ox->Falling Spider->Twisting Fangs and (surprisingly) that's gotten the job done in most cases. But heartier targets like Warriors and Rangers need the full spike to have no doubts of killing. And @Itokaru, most squishies have around 600 health in all forms of PvP...and you have everything you need to successfully kill in this version. The only thing you really need is half a brain to not charge into a mob solo, and things like that. And, it usually takes at least to Falling Lotus to kill the target. And by then you've got your energy back so just go find another target and spike again. - <font color="#620460">We <font color="#620460">Heart <font color="#620460">Katamari  [[Image:WeHeartKatamari.jpg|19px]] 18:41, 13 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Most players in AB have a lot lower than 600, from my experience. -- The preceding srsly srs comment was added by Itokaru   20:09, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
 * A LOT lower. Average is near 480, but I've seen shit like 380s lol.-- ツ <font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva" color ="black">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva" color="black">Assassin  20:41, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

Impale Vs. Golden Fang Strike
This has probably already been covered but I need more opinions on this. Would a longer chain using Golden Fox -> Golden Fang -> Trampling Ox -> Falling Lotus -> Blades of Steel yield better results than the vetted chain using Impale? I understand that Impale can be used from a distance but it deals less damage and it activates slowwer than Golden Fang Strike with a +25% IAS. Shinomori 12:16, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Takes too long to get to the real damage, and you can't do the awesomesause tactic of using golden phoenix, switching targets, then finishing the spike when the enchantments fall. Overall, it kills the utility this build has with that KD on demand.-- ツ <font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva" color ="black">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva" color="black">Assassin  17:28, 14 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Ballin'. Thanks for clearing that up. This has become my new favorite build. Shinomori 20:05, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

Impale
Why not replace it with Twisting Fangs, this way you can have GPS &rarr; TO &rarr; FS &rarr; BoS, then GPS &rarr; TO &rarr; FS &rarr; TF every other. Impale has been nerf caked for a while now and twisting is the best form of dw for assassins. -- Frosty  15:07, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Read above...-- ツ <font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva" color ="black">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva" color="black">Assassin  15:09, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Golden Fang Strike =/= Twisting Fangs -- Frosty [[Image:Mini england.jpg|19px]] 15:11, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Oh my bad. Recharge, aka the whole reason for this build being in great-- ツ <font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva" color ="black">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva" color="black">Assassin  15:29, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Well I know that, but you can still spike as often, just replacing impale with Twisting means your spike with Deep Wound doesn't have to end with a 1 second cast skill, which has been nerfed. -- Frosty [[Image:Mini england.jpg|19px]] 15:31, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
 * You can't spike as often. With twisting it is mandatory that you spike only every 15 seconds because you don't have enough damage, with blades of steel you can still get a really strong spike out, and that's every 8 seconds.-- ツ <font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva" color ="black">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva" color="black">Assassin  15:46, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
 * You can spike as often, you just use Twisting Fangs every other time... -- Frosty [[Image:Mini england.jpg|19px]] 15:48, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
 * A sin combo without a finisher is pretty meh, especially when you don't have conjures like the other build with a similar combo has. I see what you mean. Not a horrible idea, but I have to check math real quick-- ツ <font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva" color ="black">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva" color="black">Assassin  16:31, 24 October 2008 (EDT)

Ok did some math real quick:

Blades + Impale

455 damage

Blades

335 damage

Twisting

353

So with Blades and impale combo you can do about 455 damage and 335 otherwise, with twisting you do 353 and 335 otherwise. While twisting making it much easier to activate the deep wound, 100 extra damage is just too much to miss out.-- ツ <font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva" color ="black">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva" color="black">Assassin  16:39, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
 * At a cost of having to cast is, slowing down the spike. -- Frosty [[Image:Mini england.jpg|19px]] 18:13, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Still stronger, I'd rather have the ability to throw out a really strong spike if I wanted to. Also if you have a bit of coordination with other spikers you can throw out GFS --> Tramp --> Impale.-- ツ <font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva" color ="black">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva" color="black">Assassin  18:28, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
 * LOL, ever heard of "Finish Him!", I think it powns both Fangs and Impale... --66.230.230.230 18:42, 24 October 2008 (EDT)
 * pvp build rofl. Rawrawr Dinosaur 18:48, 24 October 2008 (EDT)

Archive This Revisited
Generally outdone now by newly buffed Palm Strike. Discuss. 11:10, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * Yeah, think it's about time. -- 11:12, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * Agree.  11:13, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * Disagree, fuck you all. Brandnew.  11:13, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * agree. the fast recharging PS build does roughly the same damage, but can use any type of daggers, better IAS, and is far less disruptable.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized   I frenzy-healsig.  11:14, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Brandnew, it deserves an archive. Palm Strike means a faster recharging chain, more damage, and an open secondary (constant IAS with /W TBH). -- 11:17, 13 December 2008 (EST)

This being less effective doesn't make it not ran anymore. You only archive builds after an update if a skill is nerfed/changed in a way that it makes a build just plain bad. This build is not bad, in fact it's still very good.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ  11:18, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * It is good but it is inferior, Palm Strike achieves the same thing but 1000 times better. --<font color="Black">F rosty 11:20, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * Votewipe and see what happens gg. Brandnew.  11:20, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * @ricky: Its only two days after the update, GG should soon be falling out of use to be replaced by Palm Strike. 11:21, 13 December 2008 (EST)

GUYS GUYS LETS ARCHIVE EVIS BUILD CUZ SRSLY WE BUILDS ARE MUCH BETTER. LETS GO TEAM!  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ  11:22, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * I'm all for that. --<font color="Black">F rosty 11:23, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * You are amazing ricky. Brandnew.  11:24, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * That's what she said  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 11:24, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * Don't archive. this one is still pwnage. [[Image:Tai_sig_Image_78.png]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">11:23, 13 December 2008 

Archives can only take place under these circumstances:


 * Nerfs to skills on the bar
 * Buffs to skills on other bars that have made the build inferior
 * Metagame shifts
 * Remakes of the build (better versions)

PvX:BUILDARC -- 11:25, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * Then archive evis aswell. Brandnew.  11:26, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * Compared to? WE only works in specific builds. -- 11:26, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * Grenths Grasp and Palm Strike have the same basis:cripple, trampling, falling, last dual attack, DW. Evis and WE are completely different, evis has utility, WE has damage. Its on AN, stop bitching and violating 1RV. 11:27, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * Always works, just take dchop over res sig, res sigs are for the weak. Brandnew.  11:28, 13 December 2008 (EST)

This shouldn't be archived, it's still a great build. I don't see any reason why we shouldn't have two builds that are good at the same thing instead of limiting ourselves to one. Tab 11:28, 13 December 2008 (EST)

This build is FAR from inferior, it's just got a weakness that the other build doesn't have. Just one. This kills just as hard as Palm Strike.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ  11:30, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * This one is different enough imo, the aftercast on PS is annoying (unless I'm being dumb). and: [[Image:Tai_sig_Image_78.png]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">11:30, 13 December 2008  

Brandnew. 11:32, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * Oh please. We had about 7 Eviscerate builds that all worked excellently. They all had the same purpose, utility, spikes, and more utility. They were all merged for this reason. Comparing it to WE is unfair cause of different purposes. Likewise, GG and PS sins have exactly the same purpose and an almost identical way to achieve it, which is cripple, trampling, falling, dual, DW. Both have an IAS, but Palm Strike has less downtime and can pressure with PS~>DB. GG sin is obsolete now. 11:32, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * I STILL FUCKING USE IT [[Image:Tai_sig_Image_78.png]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">11:33, 13 December 2008 
 * Oh, wow, I don't think anybody knew that yet. Thanks for pointing that out! ^_^  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 11:34, 13 December 2008 (EST)

120 damage? 120 damage every 4 seconds is like, 30 DPS, yes pls. Brandnew. 11:34, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * Evis and WE both are primarily damage-based, and both do the domages the same way: DW + minispikes. and WE does it better. archive evis then. [[Image:Tai_sig_Image_78.png]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">11:37, 13 December 2008 
 * This build is far inferior to Palm Strike tbh.  11:51, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * You guys are all retarded, seriously. - Misery  Is  Friendly  [[image:Misery Dog obaby.gif|19px]] 11:56, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * Omg NPA /banned [[Image:Tai_sig_Image_78.png]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">12:03, 13 December 2008 
 * Yes, you are retarded aswell. Brandnew.  12:05, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * and so are you. Brandnew.  12:05, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * fuck off [[Image:Tai_sig_Image_78.png]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">12:06, 13 December 2008 
 * Both of them banned.  12:08, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * FRVSMASH ZOMG!!111!!!1!! 12:12, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * Meh, it was quickly degrading to uselessness.  12:13, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Why the fuck are you archiving this? "It's not the best anymore because of Palm Strike"? That is a completely irrelevant point - here's a list of 100 builds that "aren't the best" at what they do. If those are good enough to be vetted builds then this definately is. This still works perfectly fine, it's still by far one of the best arena sin builds, just because there's one new build that works better than it doesn't mean that it suddenly needs archiving. If we're going to go with that mentality, you might as well get started on deleting the Other and Good categories and trashing everything that gets under 4.5. Tab 12:52, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * Why is that a bad idea? 12:54, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * That pretty much proves my point about the quality of this wikis userbase. [[Image:Cute McMonkey.png]]Tab 12:55, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * As if further proof of that was necessary. God  box    13:01, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * For Palm Strike build you can remove cripple immediately after each palm strike rendering half of your chain useless. For GG Trampling applies cripple and KDs, both have weaknesses, STFU and don't archive either. - Misery  Is  Friendly  [[image:Misery Dog obaby.gif|19px]] 13:07, 13 December 2008 (EST)


 * Whoa... I haven't played GW in for a few months and I forgot about this place. I posted this way back when if that has any sort of relevance, I'm all for a re-vote, new sin elites give this build a run for its money. Hikari 19:05, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Its like so little worse than palm strike sin it doesnt rly matter-- Christmas Relyk  19:12, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * I'm of the same mindset as Misery on this one, being able to cripple and cover cripple with more cripple is one of this build's main strengths. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]]<font color="#237d00"> Ĵĩôřũĵĩ Đēŗāķō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  19:19, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Imo, wipe all of the votes before the Palm Strike buff; then see how it does. ــмıкε нaшк  13:23, 20 December 2008 (EST)
 * Yeah, because Shock Axe is trash now that WE Axe exists? Stop using flawed logic. - Misery  Is  Friendly  [[image:Misery Dog obaby.gif|19px]] 13:25, 20 December 2008 (EST)
 * Except we've already revoted on Shock Axe several times.
 * Let the community decide whether this is still worth running or not. I never thought this was a Great build in the first place, tbh. ــмıкε  нaшк  13:30, 20 December 2008 (EST)
 * Preferrably without a 1-0-0 rating followed by a sexual reference involving Palm Strike. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 13:32, 20 December 2008 (EST)
 * This is still one of the best Sin builds there is. Do you archive any of the UW farming builds because one of the other 20 is better? I think not. Even several build for the same profession and same location exist at the same time, so why not with this? Even though another build is better, doesn't make this build suck. People shouldn't compare this with PS builds, but simply see how effective it is (and it's very effective) and vote reasonably. If PS is better, vote higher on that one, but don't vote lower on this one because PS is better.--El Nazgir 14:05, 11 January 2009 (EST)
 * well the point is to vote lower on builds that don't do it as well... but i love this build, i won't vote low for anything :P --[[Image:Tai_Sig.png]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">14:17, 11 January 2009 

Guess this is a moot point by now but here's my $0.02: Whoever wants to archive this is silly. Just cuz Palm Strike gets buffed & every1 creams themselves over how much better it is than it used to be, & provides a variant bar to accomplish virtually the same thing as this (& it's arguable which is better), is no reason to archive this. Each has different counters, or are affected by common counters in vastly different ways. Let's do elite vs elite for ex: If the Grenth's Grasp here gets Diversioned or Sig of Humility'd, oh noes, at least u alrdy have the enchant up & can still kill ppl in the meantime, while if the same happens to PS, you're fucked for potentially upwards of a minute, end of story. Besides, (I think) this out classes any PS build in terms of spike dmg & combo time (BoS says hi), but PS builds give more pressure. Plus I can almost guarantee PS will get more nerfs (recharge up to at least 6), while this won't :P -  420  18:07, 12 January 2009 (EST)
 * If you get PS diverted, then thats more player fault, if your getting Hum Siged, then the team your playing are the most euro cunts on earth. [[Image:Frostrage.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> po!  18:29, 12 January 2009 (EST)
 * And considering that ench removal is a far more common counter, your point is moot. 20:13, 12 January 2009 (EST)

Golden Fang vs Impale
Looking back at this, I think [insert lead attack here] + Golden Fang would be a faster and probably higher damage spike. thoughts? -- <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">16:48, 14 January 2009 
 * I coulda sworn I said something similar weeks ago above. I do Unsuspecting -> Golden Fang -> etc. - [[Image:Ins420sig.png]] 420  18:05, 14 January 2009 (EST)
 * (whirling charge)golden fox -> golden fang -> trampling ox -> falling spider -> blades of steel imo --<font color="Purple">Ojamo  <font color="Green">(>.<( O=(- -Q)  20:18, 14 January 2009 (EST)
 * Slower spike with less damage from BoS; if youre going to go GFS~>golden fang, might as well take death blossom. Then its nearly IDENTICAL to the palm strike build. Btw, as soon as this issue is resolved, we need to at least archive the talk page. pvxbig loads slow >.< 21:53, 14 January 2009 (EST)