User talk:Excluded/Archive 5

First. Chieftain  Alex  08:49, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Whitespace. It's.... NONO TOO WHITE!!QQ. Time to do some lying low. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 08:54, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * k well I did laugh at this srs surely they can't ban the most active gw player on pvx [minus relyk?] -- [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] Chieftain  Alex  08:55, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not antisocial enough, apparently! Maybe I should learn to SC... I watched a tutorial the other day on how to run the ER bar in a SC team. It took the guy doing the tutorial 20 minutes to eventually say "BASICALLY DON'T AGGRO ANYTHING AND MAINTAIN BONDS" so I skipped the rest and just watched Dhuum, which the guy said was the hard part. STAND STILL, HOLD AGGRO AND MAINTAIN BONDS. Fuck, SCs so hard. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 08:58, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Was the like the autist festival going on at the uwsc build. Faster builds! Who cares! why they would need another page for exp-builds that will probably never be looked at on pvx is beyond me zz. [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] Chieftain   Alex  09:00, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I didn't even bother to read it or look at the differences. Although, Phill and Rawr have fixed up UW Physway with two permas which they can run perfectly. By themselves they clear everything but Chamber, Vale and Wastes; we don't even have to do Pits or 4h :D We tried it earlier with poor melee (pugs) so need to redo soon. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 09:04, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, insult perfectly valid additions to the wiki. Any guild could look up advanced tactics for Terraway now if they're unsure of how to best improve upon the PuG version. There was no real drama involved in the terraway split (you all should be taking notes). Also, why wouldn't PvX care about faster builds now? We have PuG and Advanced builds stored for DoA so it's not like there's no precedent for this. --  Toraen   talk  16:30, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * What? No I meant when we had 5 variants for each individual build all on one page. I approve of separation of pages >.< [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] Chieftain   Alex  16:40, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah re: the exp-builds comment; guilds looking for records won't be posting on pvx. [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] Chieftain   Alex  16:41, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * That's not a reason to not post good builds. It just reinforces a bad reputation for the site. --  Toraen   talk  16:47, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I know most pro SC guilds who make improvements to the PUG builds or most efficient bars on PvX keep them to themselves, but nothing really makes their bars harder to use; I think they should be turned into PUG builds unless it takes a shitton of cons to use. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 19:02, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Explain
My patience is quite near exhausted at this point. This looks like troll/sarcastic reasoning to me using a completely invalid comparison. --  Toraen   talk  09:46, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh, my bad. I actually rated the wrong build... ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 16:38, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

You don't have to comment on every little thing. Especially when it's adding nothing of value. You seem to be doing this a lot at the moment...  ~ PheNaxKian talk  23:57, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I just found Vorpal's appeal odd, that's all. I didn't have to comment, but it's just somewhere to put my opinion. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 00:10, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * And I'm terribly bored at the moment. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 00:10, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Don't do that again.
Your behavior recently has been pretty counter-productive, cut it out. ApplesaucePancakes 05:35, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
 * They are pointless skills for such a build. 1. You have your optional AoE damage with WWA or the alternative KD with Headbutt. Both of which are better than a single-target deep wound. You then have to ask why you would bother with a pointless enchantment that wastes time casting to maintain and deals bitter amounts of damage (none of which hits the target foe) it's Adjacent range only and only triggers on skill-activation, making it a pretty ugly and dull skill to use. You have Death Blossom dealing your AoE damage; you then have Splinter and possibly MoP. Seriously, I wasn't being counter-productive; I was fixing those optionals (I still want to get rid of Flashing Blades but some people seem to like it.) ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 05:50, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh, and everytime you use an attack skill that ISN'T JS-FF-DB, you are slowing your chain down and dealing less damage. Deep wound or not. That is all. Do you want to revert or shall I? ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 05:52, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
 * DW is 100 damage+autoattack damage. You use it in conjunction with spam chain, that's why it's in optionals and not variants. Don't be bad. Flashing Blades works well in Deep and a few other places, no harm in keeping it.-- Relyk 06:19, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I know you use it as well as the fox trio, however 1. DW is used in PvP to push kills. 2. you deal more damage if you get DB off to kill adjacent foes while spirits and other cleanup skills take care of that 100 damage better while allowing you to either KD with Headbutt or spam your quick chain. It's *only* DW, btw, no real +damage. Really not worth it. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 06:27, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
 * 100 damage is a 100 damage. It works the same in PvP and PvE.-- Relyk 06:53, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, consider this; you're using the quick attack chain with/out DW skill. You're buffed with Strength of Honor and Order of Pain (for the sake of argument, I know a few sins who run it or OoV) and foe has cracked armour. Two quick-attacks= one use of your DW skill with aftercast. So, the damage you get from using the DW skill is 100 (from the skill) + weapon damage + 26 (SoH) + 17 (OoP). In the same time, using Jagged Strike+FF you get double SoH (52), OoP(34) and weapon damage triggers + Fox Fang's +33 damage. Quickly summing up, NOT using this slow attacking dw skill= more damage. yw ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 07:25, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
 * To finish; you won't have enough energy to use it during your chain's cooldown anyway. You still have to autoattack. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 07:51, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I lost track of your argument at "DW skill with aftercast". Do you're understand you suppose to either open with Golden Fang or follow up after Jagged->Fox->DB and spend the rest of the time using normal chain?-- Relyk 08:57, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Excluded this wasn't up for debate. Don't fuck around with already vetted builds if you know it's going to cause a shitstorm. "dw fails" was either a very sad attempt to troll or you behaving like a fucking idiot. Knock it off. ApplesaucePancakes 15:38, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
 * They were subpar optionals. Optionals that weren't vetted. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 18:27, 8 December 2011 (UTC)


 * The difference between applying Deep Wound and not, is only FF's bonus damage which you list as 33, and the increased hit rate from a 1/2s attack. Whether you FF or GFS, you still apply the same amount of hits, triggering OoP and SoH an equal number of times. Calculating the attack speed modifier from Critical Agility, to make the Jagged/FF combo deal more damage, you'd need to apply damage accounting to 67 damage + deep wound healing reduction during less than one third of a second, which is roughly how much time you gain from using FF. Unless your autoattack DPS is over 180 (healing reduction not taken into account), this will unlikely be the case.
 * Summing it up, Deep Wound fucking wins. -- DANDY ^_^ -- 16:44, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, Dandy, brb while I get real numbers :p I will admit those were rushed/half hearted. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 18:35, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't really like dw just because of the fact that shit is usually dead without needing it, but its really up to your preference. There's no viable reason you can argue that you shouldn't list dw as optional. It shouldn't be mainbar, but guess what, it's not. It also fucking wins vs bosses. Just give in excluded and stop trying to cause drama. The necro skill sucks tho. Roland 23:34, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
 * http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5608719&postcount=6 <- incase you missed the link. Also, if the only reason to use it is for bosses then zzz. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 23:38, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I didn't understand basically any of that, given I barely skimmed it. Anyway, yah its zzz, but that's why it'd be optionals, for when you're going to do some elite area with tons of healing/big health bosses where dw fucking wins. It's bad for general shit, but good for high-end. Also, noone is agreeing with you (just so you realize). Roland 23:43, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
 * No one is disagreeing, to be honest, and why would you recommend a skill that is worse (and proven worse) than EA? It doesn't make sense. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 23:53, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
 * EA still has higher recharge than GFS and thus isn't available during every gap where FF is recharging. Anaraky's next post says as much really. I'd say there's valid reason for both GFS and EA to be listed. --  Toraen   talk  00:20, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I do think there are too many poor optional choices on alot of bars, although I sort of see why this is here. But I'm going to get rid of the blood ench again (no one uses it). ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 00:23, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, DF is pretty bad since it's only 15 damage per skill use (not attack) and cuts into your energy management. --  Toraen   talk  00:29, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Why do people base damage on numbers rather than a real situation? GFS isn't just a deep wound, it's another offhand. Fox Fangs is the skill that slows you down in the chain. Adding another offhand, even when it takes (less than) 0.5 seconds more to activate with a 33% IAS, will end up letting you get to DB (By far your biggest damage output skill) that much faster. Compare JS>FF>DB>JS>GFS>DB to JS>FF>DB>Auto>Auto>JS>FF>DB. [8(auto+SoH+other buffs) + 238 + 100 damage]/(4.1633 seconds) = (618dmg/4.1633s) = 148DPS [10(auto+SoH+other buffs) + 238 damage]/(5.3844 seconds) = (588dmg/5.3844s) = 109DPS This is assuming a 33% IAS, a total of 35 damage from autoattacks and buffs (and the GFS chain attacks ever so slightly faster, by the way), and that you're using only a single cycle. For a third cycle the GFS chain will get even better because FF will be recharged meaning you can immediately do JS>FF>DB again while FF alone will have to wait two autoattacks before being able to repeat. The whole thing is essentially like bringing Moebius as your elite, except without actually using your elite. Of course, if you ever have to use a fourth cycle of the chain (unlikely for anything outside of bosses), the GFS chain will obviously diminish in DPS simply because DW is a one-time damage packet, though you're still getting to DB faster in each cycle.

Tl;dr GFS means you can get to DB every 2 seconds instead of 3 seconds, so even though GFS is slower (though not by that much if you have a 33% IAS), you end up with more damage especially in the short run (and things should die in the short run, so the short term is all that matters). (Dammit, logged me out) --Jai.  05:03, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
 * We already came to that conclusion, Jai. Thanks for going more in-depth, though. Also, seen the ele update? ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 05:21, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
 * As unfamiliar to the build, and not realizing there's downtime on JS/FF, I didn't even take that into account in my math. That's really even more reasoning for GFS. -- DANDY ^_^ -- 13:43, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

I just wanted to tell you that guru post is stupid and you're stupid for using it to justify your argument. So cheers!-- Relyk 07:52, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I wasn't trying to justify my argument, I was trying to justify using the skill. Will read later. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 07:55, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
 * And your argument... Is that using the skill is justified................ How could you possibly have not gotten that? -- Jai . -  11:44, December 9 2011 (UTC)
 * To be honest, it's still inferior to Headbutt or EA because of secondary uses other than overkill damage (+ being slower) but if people want to use it, meh. Anyway, next discussion: should dual Mesmer midline be removed from Meta now with the assumption there will be some sort of dual ele midline with supar domoges? Which is the most OP elite for PvE now (clearly a double cast)? Stone Sheath replaces ST nicely! ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 10:56, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
 * There is some kind of policy stopping us acting on leaked updates. so no :p [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] Chieftain   Alex  11:15, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Glimmering Mark and Shatterstone are the only ones likely to introduce new builds. There will be more niche use for Stone Sheath and Water Trident. The mesmer midline won't change at all or be pushed out of meta. Stone Sheath is likely the most OP if heroes use it properly.-- Relyk 11:45, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Well Water Trident is like Invoke but spammier and no exhaust. Problem is, the KD-if-kiting effect doesn't do that much in PvE, does it? Just on mob impact, I guess. Shatterstone's damage is nice. On the Stone Sheath thing; I reckon Stone Sheath resto hybrid would work beautifully. Free hero slot for moar domoges plz. I think Double Dragon would be good in human teams to support melee (maybe if I give Vekk a sword and he can use it on my dervs in Markway. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 12:02, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't see Double Dragon being used in the meta, the newer gw team is trying to push players away from speed clears which isn't going to work. The majority LOVE speed clears, if people want to do DoA the old 6 hour way then they can run balanced. I think this is all really silly, they should have just buffed eles recharge times and added conditional armor ignoring damage to the nukes. ApplesaucePancakes 14:35, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Balanced (i.e non-split) teams can do FoW in about 1:40~ if you know which order to do the quests in. Same for UW. Of course, I can't be certain how the HM change affects speed and I am also unsure if solo builds will have enough damage. Is Sliver Armour Earth damage or unconditional? ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 16:15, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
 * They changed it to Earth a while back. so it will have increased damage I think. [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] Chieftain  <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  17:17, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Lame. So Whirling and SA both benefit. Fuck. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 17:31, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Lol Grace Period = Half* only you.
"22:17, 11 December 2011 Toraen (Talk"

- contribs) deleted "Build:Rt/any Passive Spirits" ‎ (Grace period expired - Trash: content was: "

How cool is that. 8 days after being trashed ^_^ no 14 for you. -- <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain  <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  23:20, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * What the fuck bureaucracy? I demand my page back for my userspace! ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 23:24, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Maybe if you had put the build in your userspace instead of creating the shitstorm that you did for a week, you wouldn't have this problem. -- Jai . -  23:31, December 11 2011 (UTC)
 * What's a shitstorm, when all is said? ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 23:41, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * On a wild tangent: so jai, I hear you're the smartest guy on pvx. Enormous is pretty bright though? [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain  <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  23:56, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Then ask toraen or phen to restore it so you can move the page. Also helps to keep a copy locally, especially if you know you want to keep it but give no indication to the admins that you wish to.-- Relyk 23:59, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, I was intending to further towards the deletion notice... Asked Toraen anyway. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 00:06, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * inb4 not a single fuck was given ApplesaucePancakes 01:48, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid you're wrong. I want mah page. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 01:52, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

It showed up as expired here, which is why I deleted it. The tag was actually there well before december 3rd, someone just added the date then because no one else had. Also, it now resides here. --  Toraen   talk  02:20, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Yo \o/
Was going to write a huge tl;dr at work, but my wifi got zapped, and I had more time to think about the problem at hand. I'm going to go into a huge rant here, you can take it personally and get butthurt (don't really care about your feelings) OR (and here's the kicker) you can actually read it, think about what it means, and then write a well thought out response which will not only help me understand why you drag sandbox garbage to the build space, but also help you learn why the majority of your builds are getting trash voted. So here it goes, wish me luck:


 * Issue One: I personally have never seen you open yourself to criticism. This is a key factor in pretty much any social situation ever. If you're not willing to listen and learn from others how can you expect them to take what you want to say seriously? Think about it.
 * Issue Two: Your builds are never focused, you always throw seemingly random builds together from the meta section and never really focus on making a completely new build or set of builds for a team. Mesway is great we know this. Throwing it in a team with some spirit spammers doesn't constitute a new build, that's why we leave the other 4 spaces of the team blank, so people can take what they like.
 * Issue Three: You have issues letting things go. If something isn't popular with the majority of pvx you can bet money it's not a good build. There used to be a time when decent builds DID get trashed by circlejerks. Fortunately that was before you made your home here, don't assume people trash your builds because they don't like you. You win some you lose some, tis' how it works anywhere in life.
 * Issue Four: Imbasin is fucking bad. I'm sorry, I know that's not relevant here, but jesus fucking christ. Come on man.

So some tl;dr for you: Open yourself to change/criticism, try writing original builds more often, when it's gone let it go, no more imbasins. I'll keep an eye out for your reply. rąʂKƴɖooƿɭɘş 12:06, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't pay enough attention to Excluded to agree or disagree with any of this, but I will say that Rask, while occasionally rash or stubborn, hasn't earned my friendship because he's retarded, bad at vidya, or too stubborn to admit when he's wrong (most of the time). Also, most people who vigorously defend builds are in the wrong - this has been proven time and time again, and the only times I remember really seeing Excluded is when he's doing so. (The only case this doesn't apply to is IoP Flagger because you're all niggers and that was/is the best build ever.) Anyway, my two cents. I won't be checking back here for replies so if anyone feels the need to baww at me my talk page is the best place to do it. <3 Danny 12:13, 21 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Think the only person I can remember who stuck around for a while to defend their builds to the death is Smity, if you really want to be like this its up to you, but not something I would generally advise. - <font color="CornflowerBlue">Athrun <font color="CornflowerBlue">Feya [[Image:Athrun snow sig.gif]] 12:31, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The more people that jump on this train the less likely he is to actually thinks things over and take this as "we don't like you". So I'd like for anyone else that isn't excluded to avoid this section. With that being said, Danny and Lau's veteran status exceeds mine by far so you should probably take what they have to say seriously. rąʂKƴɖooƿɭɘş 12:41, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for taking enough concern about my well-being to ask, Rask. I don't actually care if you trash my builds, but you need the right reasoning and corroborate that with evidence. Because I actually play the game with most of the builds I upload here beforehand (albeit the Locust sin only in very specific circumstances when maintaining prot bond on him) And so, when I get success from them, I instantly decide to share and see what response I get from everyone else. If the response is instantly negative, I would have to ask myself if they just don't realise it's potential or are "doinitwrong". I think you'll find that I am good at compromise and making changes based on discussion and second judgments; I'm always looking to improve my builds and the other builds on the wiki (If I've used them). After looking deep into a build that's causing problems, I will be forced to do comparisons to similar working builds and make sure I have made the right decision to defend it in the first place. If it turns out I was wrong about a build (Locust hero) then fine. But if a build is trashed for no reason (meleemancer, esurge spam, Rit Lord partyhealer, etc.) Hell, even AP ele got slapped for some stupid reason, just because Danny saw an opportunity to troll, and people followed suit. Therefore I ignore all negative ratings without real evidence. Not so much ignore, but it doesn't help an argument when you haven't exactly explained why you don't approve of something, or what would be better.


 * P.S. I don't see why you're bringing the Dagger spam sin into the mix, but you are the only person to express distaste for it on PvX, or, the world. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 17:02, 21 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Of course, on top of that, I just like coming back to a refreshed discussion so I can waste more of my life reading it and responding. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 17:34, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Read Issue One again. rąʂKƴɖooƿɭɘş 17:59, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * ya? I do allow criticism, hence why I continue to post my opinions on a website and not simply think them. Perhaps you could explain further. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 18:07, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Taking criticism like a bitch and ignoring it is different from listening and taking valid arguments into account, I tried to be straight with you, good luck etc rąʂKƴɖooƿɭɘş 18:37, 21 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Remember when locust hero was critised for dedicating half the bar to powering Symbolic strike, which turned out to suck compared to empty bar ^^ excluded changed the build then. (albeit still trashed but he took that onboard) [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain  <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  18:59, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Physway is and always will be garbage, and fuck if I'm going to sit here and watch you two suck each others dicks, I got other places to be like danny's talk page. PEACE NIGGAS rąʂKƴɖooƿɭɘş 19:10, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * No brownie points for trying. This isn't first grade.-- Relyk 19:34, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Peace? I don't think there is any. You don't substantiate your views with any evidence. You also keep creating straw man fallacies, because I never mentioned Physway in my wall of text, so fuck you. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 20:33, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Terraway
its actually pretty clear that its going to be slower than a standard t4way, but w/e. Life Guardian 23:55, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * There isn't actually a t4way on PvX. What is standard/why isn't it here? Should it be? ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 23:57, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The reason we dont have a t4way is because we have generally kept fow fairly pug friendly. There also isnt a huge time difference between t2way and t4way, while t4way is far more risky and easy to fail. I guess we could post a t4way, but i dont really see a reason to. Life Guardian 00:06, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Would be nice to have a pug-friendly version and a faster, more advanced version that can make guilds feel elite. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 00:10, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
 * We recently got advanced UW, and we've had trenchway for DoA for a while. --  Toraen   talk  00:30, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I say put up the advanced version if we can, if nothing else than for guilds to try and get good times for the hell of it. -- Jai . -  00:45, December 22 2011 (UTC)
 * I actually agree with them on this one life, no real reason not to put it up. rąʂKƴɖooƿɭɘş 09:40, 22 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Just state in the build introduction it's hard and not for random pugs. -- DANDY ^_^ -- 12:43, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
 * ^ Should take care of it. rąʂKƴɖooƿɭɘş 12:47, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I think testing it is the first thing that needs to be done. Suprises can happen at every corner. <font color="#ff0000">Shadow Shadow02122011.gif <font color="#008000">Christmas Signature 13:24, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
 * We are a build wiki for documenting builds. That is a build, and people run it. I think that is basically the entire criteria for whether a build should be put up or not Life! Rawr 15:25, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
 * We typically mandate that people use the builds. Appeal to the masses and all that.-- Relyk 17:24, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Well it's not rare to come on PvX just to find out how some build works. -- DANDY ^_^ -- 20:13, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd come on to you. rąʂKƴɖooƿɭɘş 20:16, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Ima come on Raskie to find out how his body works! Study dat anatomies! Self-lubricating motors np. -- DANDY ^_^ -- 20:20, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
 * You're legal here in america and my sexual preference is "human", best watch yourself boy <3 rąʂKƴɖooƿɭɘş 20:30, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

From Build talk:Team - 7 Hero Markway

 * Excluded, what did you do to Markway? QQ Btw, Marry Xmas bitches! <font color="Black">Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 00:41, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Unless this "Xmas" person is indeed a bitch, I will not marry her! Merry christmas Vorp. :P [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain  <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  02:10, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't worry, Vorpal, glass cannon is cool. And all the merrymus Christis. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 04:31, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Markway related, after ele update, take a Illusion/Water midline?

AoE snares, damage, slots and attribs for Command skills or w/e. Thoughts? PewPew  QQ   13:54, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Or just take a B-Surge for more AoE damage. rąʂKƴɖooƿɭɘş 18:51, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree water for snares, damage and spare slots for shouts, but maybe Water Trident or Shatterstone. I don't know how the heroes will be with them, so I'll wait to test. I may just drop the illusion guy for bsurge, though... If they deal higher damage than mes. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 01:31, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I forgot about the new AoE component of Shatterstone, and the 1/2 recharge on MoI as well as the fact you've got the melee brought me to MoI. Of course this is assuming that AI will not be dumb with MoI. I thought B-Surge could be pretty strong, but seeing as Chain is getting an Exhaustion nerf which heros are retarded with, and I couldn't think of any other skills to fill the bar with. You know, unless I'm just being dumb. PewPew   QQ   02:31, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Arcane Echo + Bsurge = lol. rąʂKƴɖooƿɭɘş 04:26, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Two things

 * 1) Fix your signature to point at User:Excluded not User:Minion.
 * 2) I got pmed today during some random mission.. User Chieftain Alex Spatha.jpg  [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain  <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  14:43, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
 * 1. No because I'm Minion and not Excluded (or both if you like)
 * 2. Lol, but FU for not telling him it's full of value!82.44.196.137 17:22, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes you should. Your sig should be almost the same as your username. Anyone with brains will figure Jai means Jaigoda, but his sig still points to his username. You make no exception. I even changed my username so I could go on with this simpler sig <font color="#ff0000">Shadow Shadow02122011.gif <font color="#008000">Christmas Signature 17:57, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, do change your sig. -- Toraen   confer  18:21, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Why is this being imposed now? I have had this name since pre-Curse move. Apparently it was fine to call myself Minion if I redirected it. I am known as Minion or Excluded. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 00:25, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Someone could create the minion account and take that page. Then you'd have no choice. Choose which name you want. Also, at least the sig could point directly to Excluded. No reason to purposely link to a redirect in a sig. -- Toraen   confer  00:58, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The fact that no one's brought this up yet really has no relevance as to whether it's wrong or not. -- Jai' s Computer -  01:03, December 27 2011 (UTC)
 * Can I just get a name change? Changing all the links to user:minion would be tedious, when it's doing no harm as is. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 01:07, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
 * What. I meant change your code to ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg Just don't make new links to a non existant account :p [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain  <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  01:11, 27 December 2011 (UTC)


 * You just change your sig. Any previous instances of you signing can stay as redirected for now (seriously wouldn't expect anyone other than a bot to go through and fix them). Also, name change means you need to make the Minion account and get Phen to merge Excluded to it so you keep your contributions/votes. Ask him BEFORE making the minion account. -- Toraen   confer  01:12, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Should anyone create a user account called Minion, I shall be rather cross. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 01:13, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
 * FYI, what I was told was your sig has to link to your page, and must resemble your page name. My page was Minion and redirected to Excluded, so it was supposedly k (according to Steamy). ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 01:15, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Steamy was wrong, your account is Excluded and thus your page is User:Excluded. You should thus link to it and not Minion, even with a redirect on Minion. This really is just a mess and I should've noticed sooner. Also, scratch what I said about waiting on the Minion account creation. Make it, I'll ban this one, and Phen can merge later. -- Toraen   confer  01:18, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Yay, this is still my page because of the redirect :D That's fine for me; nothing has changed but my account name. Oh and I CAN'T RATE BUILDS. Toraen; don't ban me for 3 days so I can still rate if necessary. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 01:27, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll have to ban one of them so I don't let you accidentally have two accounts to vote with in three days. I'd prefer it be this one since you will be moving to Minion. Also, you should take 3 days off voting anyway for doing this to me. -- Toraen   confer  01:35, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I blame Alex for pointing it out. The bastard is making work for you during the yuletide period! ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 01:36, 27 December 2011 (UTC)