Archive talk:D/W AoG Dervish

Let the bashing begin. Note that Avatar of Grenth has been buffed. ~ ĐONT * TALK  15:48, 6 February 2008 (EST)
 * Sight beyond sight please for extremely raep melee. Can't be blinded or blocked is FOR THE FUCKING KANKER WIN. This build is SO rape now btw, it dominates shattering assault sins every day of the fucking week. Napalm Flame  >=] [[Image:Napalm_Flame_Sig_Image.JPG‎]] (talk)·(contributions) 16:02, 6 February 2008 (EST)
 * Even saturdays? Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] (contributions  * sandbox ) 16:03, 6 February 2008 (EST)
 * Even Orange Wednesdays. Napalm Flame  >=] [[Image:Napalm_Flame_Sig_Image.JPG‎]] (talk)·(contributions) 16:05, 6 February 2008 (EST)
 * Tho they get thru DA and stances. Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] (contributions  * sandbox ) 16:07, 6 February 2008 (EST)
 * The melee will raep monks, the only way monks are gonna cope is by not using any enchantments and using a blocking stance imo. Napalm Flame  >=] [[Image:Napalm_Flame_Sig_Image.JPG‎]]  (talk)·(contributions) 16:12, 6 February 2008 (EST)

SBS added to variants. ~ ĐONT * TALK  16:08, 6 February 2008 (EST)

What's the big buff? still 120 secs disabled...--86.86.36.63 16:30, 6 February 2008 (EST)
 * That would be the fact that it now ignores guardian, critical defenses, etc. - 80.192.83.173 16:38, 6 February 2008 (EST)
 * What he said ^ (EC) [[Image:Sebsig.jpg|19px]]  Seb2net  (Talk)  16:40, 6 February 2008 (EST)
 * It also now lasts 79 seconds as opposed to 40 at 13 Mysticism. --Franzwald 19:23, 6 February 2008 (EST)

Guys, blocking stances are still faitly common, Ward Against Melee and DA isn't that rare either. Remember that it will still cope badly with stuff like SB. Sure it will hit through gaurdian and Aegis, but it still dosen't remove enchantments like the Shattering Assault. That said, the duration looks alright now, and combined with SbS i believe it should be quite deadly.
 * Ever thought that this fucking owns aegis chains? Enchanted with Aegis = stances and wards are screwed. One enchantment on target and they can't block, so they are free for chainraep. Napalm Flame  >=] [[Image:Napalm_Flame_Sig_Image.JPG‎]] (talk)·(contributions) 17:48, 6 February 2008 (EST)
 * I'm wondering where you're going to be finding block stances, ward melee, and DA (which is lol) without some sort of enchantment (SB, PS, Aegis, what have you). Don't bring up natural stride, there's no way any smart derv is going to split off to 1v1 a ranger. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 19:54, 6 February 2008 (EST)

Squirrel Squirrel 17:10, 6 February 2008 (EST)

Wild Blow should be in variants, and attributes should probably be 12+ 1 + 1 scythe, 11+ 1 myst, and 6 Wind imo. Mike 17:43, 6 February 2008 (EST)
 * Wild Blow added to variants. 6 Wind Prayers is kinda pointless tbh. ~ <font color="#444">ĐONT <font color="#444">* <font color="#444">TALK  18:05, 6 February 2008 (EST)

This build is so stupid. It rapes too much. I'm suing!! -- Guild of  Deals  18:38, 6 February 2008 (EST)

Attributes could be a matter of preference then. It's 5 extra seconds of Grenth vs free attack skills(along with prevention of messing up the 2 skill breakpoint due to weakness, though of course that's a situational bonus at best) and an extra rune. Mike 18:53, 6 February 2008 (EST)


 * I say make it 12/12/3. Still a 2 atk attacker's insight, but only 1 cost still. [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] <font color=#6e8b3d>frvwfr2  (T/C/Sysop) 20:14, 6 February 2008 (EST)


 * Well only 2 attacks have heavy energy (Chilling and Pious), so it pretty much helps what you need. --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  20:28, 6 February 2008 (EST)


 * What? [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] <font color=#6e8b3d>frvwfr2  (T/C/Sysop) 20:28, 6 February 2008 (EST)


 * He's saying that if you spike right, insight reduces the cost of the only two energy intensive attacks on your bar. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 20:49, 6 February 2008 (EST)


 * I am aware of that. [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] <font color=#6e8b3d>frvwfr2  (T/C/Sysop) 21:01, 6 February 2008 (EST)

This build is now vetted higher than the Shock Axe. --71.229 23:00, 6 February 2008 (EST)
 * Because you can block a shock axe, and the idiots haven't found this yet. <font color="#DD2200">Lord Belar 23:02, 6 February 2008 (EST)

In regards to above...I wasn't actually suggesting to change the attributes on the main bar, I was just making a note that the attributes it has aren't necessarily the best ones. Some builds require specific attributes to function optimally, this one doesn't.That's all I was saying. It'll work great either way. Mike 23:10, 6 February 2008 (EST)

Flareway is better (see my vote)!Nice job though.- Jak123X 00:31, 7 February 2008 (EST)

I'm just wondering, but how do you upkeep your energy with 2 10energy attack skills, and AoG on top of that. Isn't E-managment hard? Gabe 12:03, 7 February 2008 (EST) Gabe

Energy management is fine with Attacker's Insight Shaft 05:10, 10 February 2008 (EST)

I think Heart of Fury is a bad idea here
I replaced it with Attacker's Insight and put Rush in optional, this allows me to actually keep my energy. Most of the time I have non with original which makes spikes far and few.

Also I put Wild Blow in for 3rd attack.(Mr Pink57 01:49, 7 February 2008 (EST))

@ Fusion's vote
AoG is near-unblockable, pressures a lot and lasts longer than AoM. Guiding Hands is Wind Prayers and allows one spike every 30 secs. ~ <font color="#444">ĐONT <font color="#444">* <font color="#444">TALK  03:59, 7 February 2008 (EST)
 * You can spike a lot more often than that, it just takes waiting a bit for your energy. Zealous scythe when they're balled up and you're low on energy. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 05:29, 7 February 2008 (EST)
 * They don't ball, and they won't ball for more then 2 hits against a scythe without IAS or they're really epic. It's not gonna give that much energy... - [[Image:Unexist sig.jpg|20px]]<font color="Black">Unexist  11:50, 7 February 2008 (EST)
 * A good ball grabs you 3 or 6 energy (depending on how many cast time attacks you use). Pick a map that forces them to ball and you're doing even better. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 14:45, 7 February 2008 (EST)
 * I've seen top guilds get AoE KDed by scythe bulls. You can get in those AoE hits at times, especially on some maps. &mdash; Edru / QQ  14:03, 24 February 2008 (EST)

Heart of Fury
isn't needed with 3/4 second attacks. Revert back to Attacker's Insight. 3+1 wind prayers will reduce the next two by 9 energy, with a net savings of 13 energy every 15 seconds. Much better than HoF.Matti Nuke 07:17, 7 February 2008 (EST)
 * Attackers fury isn't that needed, but i agree with that you must remove HoF. Will be removed by both pious stuff, so you'll have it up for about 7 max which is pretty useless. - [[Image:Unexist sig.jpg|20px]]<font color="Black">Unexist  11:37, 7 February 2008 (EST)

Shock on a derv?
rly? -- <font color="black" face="calibri">Mafaraxas 14:06, 7 February 2008 (EST)
 * has been used before. Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] (<font color="Black">contributions  * sandbox ) 14:19, 7 February 2008 (EST)
 * Works fine on a warrior, and dervs have more regen and max energy than warriors. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 14:42, 7 February 2008 (EST)
 * Just don't overuse it I'd say, as Warriors usually don't need as much energy management (adrenaline) as Dervishes. --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  15:04, 7 February 2008 (EST)
 * Don't use it on dervishes, it's gay. Really, on wars it owns since you only need 10 max energy, but he even can operate with 5 energy if you gotta spam shock to own them, and they can also knocklock for 6 secs then. Bull's is better then shock on a derv with constant speed boost. - [[Image:Unexist sig.jpg|20px]]<font color="Black">Unexist  06:48, 8 February 2008 (EST)
 * Yeh, that was my thinking too; Bull's is just better than Shock on a derv since you rely on energy. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] <font color="black" face="calibri">Mafaraxas 07:18, 8 February 2008 (EST)
 * Still works though, you just have to not suck. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 17:54, 9 February 2008 (EST)
 * 2 sec kd's do suck to be honest. - [[Image:Unexist sig.jpg|20px]]<font color="Black">Unexist  12:22, 10 February 2008 (EST)
 * And if you want KD on a derv, Bull's is the way to go. --[[Image:Ibreaktoilets_Signature.jpg|User:Ibreaktoilets|20px]]<font color="Black">Tab  <font color="Black">Moo  12:27, 10 February 2008 (EST)


 * People only run Shock when they wanna run Conjure-SDH/FDH in HA, cause the spikers have no KD skill &mdash;  Skadiddly [슴Mc슴] Diddles  12:31, 10 February 2008 (EST)
 * People in ha are stupid. I've seen some guys who claim to be r10 and good groups shocking every 6 seconds @ spikes.... Shock --> they see who you are spiking. It's not that great on a dervish. - [[Image:Unexist sig.jpg|20px]]<font color="Black">Unexist  05:36, 12 February 2008 (EST)


 * euros like shock train. doesn't mean they are bad. also, who cares? --<font color="Black">Readem 20:45, 14 February 2008 (EST)

5-5-5
Is this like the first ever 5-5-5 build on PvX? Also, a disclaimer:

THE 5-5-5 DISCLAIMER

WARNING!: This build has recieved a rating of 5-5-5, which qualifies it for the "Uber" category. Unless affected by nerf or skill change, 'DO NOT, under any circumstances, vote this build below a 5-5-5.

If you accept this disclaimer (which you must), imaginarily sign here: ___________________________

Thanks, and don't fuck up the 5-5-5!

-- Guild of  Deals  15:13, 7 February 2008 (EST)


 * Ouch. [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] <font color=#6e8b3d>frvwfr2  (T/C/Sysop) 15:17, 7 February 2008 (EST)
 * If I don't think this deserves a 5-5-5, am I still allowed to vote? Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] (<font color="Black">contributions  * sandbox ) 15:53, 7 February 2008 (EST)
 * Yeah, with 5-5-5. Ibreaktoilets messed it up tho. And fvr. I guess it won't be 100% again. ~ <font color="#444">ĐONT <font color="#444">* <font color="#444">TALK  16:08, 7 February 2008 (EST)


 * You were supposed to sign it!!! But still, maybe just adding Frenzy > HoF could resolve some issues? --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  16:26, 7 February 2008 (EST)
 * I just lol'd.&mdash;[[Image:Cheese Slaya's Sig.jpg|50x19px]] Cheese Slaya  ( Talk ) 18:49, 7 February 2008 (EST)
 * Actually, frenzy+rush, with bulls in the optional might work. <font color="#DD2200">Lord Belar 18:55, 7 February 2008 (EST)
 * I wouldn't run frenzy without rush.&mdash;[[Image:Cheese Slaya's Sig.jpg|50x19px]] Cheese Slaya  ( Talk ) 18:57, 7 February 2008 (EST)
 * i wouldn't run Frenzy on a 70 AL that's probably gonna be targeted b/c of the whole lol-suck it-aegis/guardian autoattack thing this build has goin on. [[Image:Iliekfrenzy.jpg|50x19px]]<font color="Brown">Punjab 19:02, 7 February 2008 (EST)
 * Just get good at canceling. Rush charges pretty fast when you can hit three targets at once. <font color="#DD2200">Lord Belar 19:33, 7 February 2008 (EST)
 * Is that supposed to occur often in TA? Or even GvG? &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 19:47, 7 February 2008 (EST)
 * No, of course not. <font color="#DD2200">Lord Belar 19:53, 7 February 2008 (EST)


 * amirite? &mdash;  Skadiddly [슴Mc슴] Diddles  20:00, 7 February 2008 (EST)
 * +1.&mdash;[[Image:Cheese Slaya's Sig.jpg|50x19px]] Cheese Slaya  ( Talk ) 21:41, 7 February 2008 (EST)
 * I hate you. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 00:24, 11 February 2008 (EST)

Swiftslash
"This is good indeed. But not uber. You still get owned by DA Chains, stances. And you don't remove any echns, meaning SB, PS, SH, SoA are still there. Also you have 2 ench removing skills and HoF? Little utility and not the leetness of a tree."

I don't have my reason memorized verbatim, but perhaps something got lost between my head and my fingers. You say this build can still be blocked by DA Chains and stances. But when such a target becomes enchanted, this build is then unblockable because of the functionality of AoG. Therefore, you say the build gets owned by DA chains, then turn around and mention enchantments that negate DA. In fact, you correctly state the build can't remove enchantments, and that the enchantments that override DA "are still there". So your vote is undeniably contradictory. -<font color="Black">Shen 19:55, 7 February 2008 (EST)


 * OMG A GRENTH COMING AT ME! Should I enchant myself with Spirit Bond? No because I have DA on me. What about when DA runs out? I enchant myself with spirit bond. That's what I meant. Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] (<font color="Black">contributions  * sandbox ) 07:23, 8 February 2008 (EST)
 * Two-monk backline FTL? :O --71.229 07:27, 8 February 2008 (EST)
 * Vent. No wait, should I redo vote to include "this wins PUGS who can't communicate?". Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] (<font color="Black">contributions  * sandbox ) 07:29, 8 February 2008 (EST)
 * I dunno, I was being facetious. --71.229 15:45, 8 February 2008 (EST)
 * Hopefully the team is smart enough to have one AoG and another melee, 2 AoG would be massive fail, just kite in wards. This pwns in HA though, every monk and his mom is enchanted. Moush 23:11, 8 February 2008 (EST)

HoF
I'm iffy on it. You have Pious Assault and Pious haste, and if you're spiking like the usage tells you to, you'd only get one attacks worth in of IAS ( Chilling ) before PA ended it. Add something about autoattacking with a zealous scythe and HoF, as it is, I'd downrate the build for the bad skill synergy. I won't vote yet though. --Hikari 00:20, 8 February 2008 (EST)
 * Yeah, HoF is a pretty bad choice imo. For an IAS take Pious Fury. Also Pious Haste should be replaced by Rush and Wild Blow in optional would make the build almost completely unblockable. ▪  √ēт   <font color=#191970>[no :D u]  00:24, 8 February 2008 (EST)
 * Uh. Attacker's Insight and Pious Fury don't play together too well. --71.229 04:44, 8 February 2008 (EST)
 * While i agree that pious fury is pretty bad, you can do pious -> attackers -> chilling/pious/eremites.&mdash;[[Image:Cheese Slaya's Sig.jpg|50x19px]] Cheese Slaya  ( Talk ) 18:18, 8 February 2008 (EST)
 * And pray they don't kite for five seconds. --71.229 23:23, 8 February 2008 (EST)
 * Lol. One of the reasons i said "can".&mdash;[[Image:Cheese Slaya's Sig.jpg|50x19px]] Cheese Slaya  ( Talk ) 01:28, 9 February 2008 (EST)

HB
Anti-blockway and all those dang'd d/as maybe? <font color="Black">Belgianbronco 15:46, 8 February 2008 (EST)
 * I'll test it. [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] <font color=#6e8b3d>frvwfr2  (T/C/Sysop) 16:42, 8 February 2008 (EST)
 * Not really working well vs meta for me... I run Imbue, SBS, and FoMF. [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] <font color=#6e8b3d>frvwfr2  (T/C/Sysop) 17:18, 8 February 2008 (EST)
 * Really? I've been able to counter monk splits with it ok, but maybe that's because I'm at rank 1000 again :\. It does rip DAs, but needs WB to counter rps. SBS seems like a waste, blind is common but decent monk microing gets rid of it... Are you heroing it are playing it yourself? This seems viable to me. <font color="Black">Belgianbronco [[Image:BelgianbroncoMesmerSig.png]] 17:26, 8 February 2008 (EST)
 * I was playing myself... maybe my skill has gone down due to being away for a month or two, but idk. SBS was a waste moistly though. Then I switched to D/A, DPrison and DCharge. [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] <font color=#6e8b3d>frvwfr2  (T/C/Sysop) 06:33, 14 February 2008 (EST)

RA
I was surprised not to see this in RA. I would guess that the SoA/SH meta hurts it, but Guardian is meta there as well. -- Guild of  Deals  08:38, 9 February 2008 (EST)

I'm assuming the lack of self heal is the reason for no RA tag. Shaft 05:02, 10 February 2008 (EST)
 * Yup. Maybe Natural Healing with 12-10-8 for a self-heal. ~ <font color="#444">ĐONT <font color="#444">* <font color="#444">TALK  05:33, 10 February 2008 (EST)
 * Natural Healing works ok. You're hardly going to be an awesome tank, but it's probably the best option without tinkering too much with the offense. Randvek 17:18, 15 February 2008 (EST)
 * I realized that Meditation works better for this one. No need of attribute spread and more healing. ~ <font color="#444">ĐONT <font color="#444">* <font color="#444">TALK  17:38, 15 February 2008 (EST)

HB again
works fine, lacks KD tho. --<font color="Purple"><tt>I</tt>g<tt>o</tt>r<tt></tt> 14:05, 9 February 2008 (EST)

Rate
Funny how this went from UBER to ..good.. ...pretty quick =D --Majnore 11:36, 13 February 2008 (EST)
 * 5-5-5 vote removals that is. ~ <font color="#444">ĐONT <font color="#444">* <font color="#444">TALK  12:11, 13 February 2008 (EST)

Pious
rlly need. Also, if you need energy with this build, you are a whore. Try running AoM. --<font color="Black">Readem 19:37, 13 February 2008 (EST)
 * You're alive! =o Hikari 00:11, 14 February 2008 (EST)

Best Variant(s)
Heart Of Fury, Signet of Mystic Speed, Attacker's Insight, Wild Blow, Pious Assault, Protectors Strike, AoG, Rez Sig.Bobby2542 05:32, 14 February 2008 (EST)
 * Variants? What? Heart of Fury was removed for obvious reasons, SoMS speed is useless, you only have an enchantment up for a few seconds, Attacker's Insight is already there, Wild Blow is ok, Pious is already there, Prot strike is generally replaced by MYstic/Eremites, AoG can't be a variant its the entire point of the build and res sig... you sure you didn't post on the wrong page? Hikari 21:27, 14 February 2008 (EST)
 * He probably meant that that is the best overall bar. Though he's wrong. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] <font color="black" face="calibri">Mafaraxas  21:34, 14 February 2008 (EST)

Pious nerfed
I'm removing all votes. That was a pretty crucial skill for most every non-Melandru derv. Zuranthium 16:30, 6 March 2008 (EST)
 * These things need an IAS now. - Star Seeker  |  My talk  16:31, 6 March 2008 (EST)
 * That's the problem non-Melandru Dervs have always faced...there was no way to combine all the necessary ingredients a strong front-line character needs: speed boost, IAS, survivability, and a good Deep Wound. Pious Assault and Grenth's Aura brought everything together for Balth Dervs, and they can still do it all, but not as well. Avatar of Melandru is again the only realistic Avatar to use on a Dervish. Zuranthium 17:04, 6 March 2008 (EST)

Yeah, definitely needs an IAS somehow. Maybe Pious Fury.. but no running stance then. It should be archived / trashed after all (I wonder if builds in testing can get archived..). ~ <font color="#444">ĐONT <font color="#444">* <font color="#444">TALK  17:10, 6 March 2008 (EST)

Ummmm. PROT STRIKE? Dutchess of Rose aka  lukejohnson  - talk - Contributions 07:52, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Yep, but no +damage then. Seeing that other builds with Eremite's hadn't been changed, I guess it isn't needed for this one either. ~ <font color="#444">ĐONT <font color="#444">* <font color="#444">SYSOP  07:55, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Faster attack = quicker spike = less chance to heal. And people dont move when being attacked? Dutchess of Rose  aka  lukejohnson  - talk - Contributions 07:56, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Depends. You have 33% IMS so kiting is kinda useless. But go on and change it. ~ <font color="#444">ĐONT <font color="#444">* <font color="#444">SYSOP  07:58, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
 * So i can change the build to add it in? or put it in variants? - Oh! and you guys were worrying about an IAS... this is a good artificial IAS Dutchess of Rose  aka  lukejohnson  - talk - Contributions 08:03, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Whichever you want to. Pious Assault had 1⁄2 activation time along with Eremite's so that's why it doesn't have IAS. ~ <font color="#444">ĐONT <font color="#444">* <font color="#444">SYSOP  08:09, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Ya.. but pious is much better now. At the expense of not having the derv IAS... Dutchess of Rose  aka  lukejohnson  - talk - Contributions 08:38, 29 June 2008 (EDT)

Done, is it OK? or revert? Dutchess of Rose aka  lukejohnson  - talk - Contributions 08:43, 29 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Yeah it's fine. ~ <font color="#444">ĐONT <font color="#444">* <font color="#444">SYSOP  08:51, 29 June 2008 (EDT)

Ups
U right. 12:28, 30 July 2008 (EDT)