User:Malokai92/Wiki Drama/W/R FA Melandru's Tank

[build prof=Warrior/Ranger Tactics=8+1 Wild=10 str=12+1+1][Melandru's Resilience][Dolyak Signet][Troll Unguent][Signet of Stamina][Healing Signet][Optional][Sprint][Poison Tip Signet][/build]
 * Player build

Talk page starts below this line.

People troll with this in 50% of all games. And it fucking wins. Broken AI is broken. Miharo 22:06, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
 * why so high WS? and is MR the best elite for the job? (Healing Breeze+zealous spear is equal, i'm being serious.) on average how long can this tank? vid would be fun to watch. &#9823;Fianchetto [[Image:Mending.jpg|19px|link=User_talk:Fianchetto]] 22:40, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah WS doesn't really need to be above 9 to chain it, + you can have more health from Stamina that way. -- Chieftain Alex 22:46, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
 * OH RIGHT! I forgot about that. Plus people often bring I will survive! I'll change. Also Healbreeze has a cast time, attacking makes you vulnerable to anti melee and HB makes you vulnerable to anti enchant and anti spell. Miharo 23:06, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
 * ok war with enchants won't work. i might actually test this compared to a terra tank. &#9823;Fianchetto [[Image:Mending.jpg|19px|link=User_talk:Fianchetto]] 23:31, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
 * It works, not sure of the exact bar though. Many run Sprint mainbar to get to the turtles fast. Don't think IWS! should be mainbar and Endure Pain is often run. But yeah, it works like a charm. I've seen games when one player has held both turtles and made luxons lose due to lack of firepower. Miharo 09:16, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Im sorry but this is 0-0. You can stall the turtles with a ranger while doing something after u killed them. [[Image:40px-Crippling Shot.jpg|19px]] Chonsy Rulez  12:57, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

However I guess the exact bar is Defy Pain-Troll-Healing sig-Dolyak-IWS-Stamina-Natural Stride-Poison Tip Chonsy Rulez   13:21, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Ok, much to the annoyance of my luxon opposition, I tested this. It needs IMS on mainbar imo. preferably sprint (NS is only 5 seconds of meh) Chieftain Alex  15:02, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * And without prot defense you get lol raped by dshot. -- Chieftain Alex 15:16, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Then why take out Shield Bash? Also, not really. Fake out with healsig and rangers in FA aren't too common. Miharo 15:17, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Its just me in chinese district playing against asians with proper dshot usage right. (perhaps you mean bring Shield Bash) Chieftain Alex  15:20, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I meant, why did you(or someone else, don't remember) take it off variants? It's a good variant if you're facing a lot of rangers. Either way, a ranger won't be able to kill you in a million years even it's got some d-shot skills. Meaning you'll be drawing attention from more luxons = more time. Miharo 15:22, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Ranger just arent common, good rangers are really really really really really...(5 minutes later)...really rare, especially on luxon side. You could say that im the only good ranger that plays FA. [[Image:40px-Crippling Shot.jpg|19px]] Chonsy Rulez  15:33, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Necromancers/Mesmers > This
Hi, Faintheartedness, Insidious Parasite, and Empathy say hi! Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]   13:23, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Weakness and Draw Conditions just called too. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 13:24, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Christ, Blind was late as usual, sorry. I think the party is all here now. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 13:25, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

This is a tank build and you dont give a shit about attacking say Hi! too! <font color="DarkGreen">Chonsy <font color="DarkGreen">Rulez  14:13, 14 April 2012 (UTC)


 * The purpose of the build is to stall turtles vincent, which often results in reduced luxon team movement (they will attack you to get the turtle in range) - healers will also be reluctant to leave the turtle. In order to facilitate being a complete arsehole in FA, the tank skills are somewhat necessary to beat off the armies of shitter luxons who will come to kill you. <font face="Calibri" color=black>Chieftain Alex  14:28, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Vincent you really missed the point of this build didn't you? <font color="Black">Miharo 15:07, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * @Alex: I understand the point of the build. The point of stalling is so null as a warrior though. There is so much you're against when you stall that it is essentially useless to do so. The point of my posts above (which actually were meant to be added together, I just forgot to add them to the first post) was to show that while enemies may be directing their damage at you, you'll still get shit on. This build's effectiveness could be summed up in a BA Ranger bar with apply poison with a longbow, or even Build:Rt/E FA Xinrae's Weapon in particular. With these builds you can stall the turtle or even kill it much more efficiently than this tank. As a BA, you can apply ample amount of pressure through degen and standard shutdown, or with Xinrae's, you can use that massively strong aspect of limiting enemy damage to 5% against the turtle. The best part about these two is that you can use these on the castle ledge where you can't be touched by enemy spells, and hell, with Xinrae's, it wouldn't matter because of weapon spells. What I'm trying to say, Alex, and I'll admit that I'm happy that you, out of these other two posters, are applying correct logic to this discussion, that this build's effectiveness is next inferior to other builds as that it's usage can be applied through other builds that provide more viable support to the game. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 15:41, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh, and yes I've killed plenty of turtles with Xinrae' and also have clutch-caught sieges with the aforementioned skill. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 15:44, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I've never ever ever seen a ranger hold two turtles plus 2-4 players an entire game. <font color="Black">Miharo 15:46, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Notice that I already said it: "Im sorry but this is 0-0. You can stall the turtles with a ranger while doing something after u killed them." . I was just trolling about the obvious nonsense statements you put up there. <font color="DarkGreen">Chonsy <font color="DarkGreen">Rulez  15:46, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * A tank can only hold one turtle. If there were two tanks (which be essentially a 6v8 anyhow) then both turtles would be held. The same can be said for two rangers, which, if happened, would still be more effective than two useless tanks, Miharo. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 15:55, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * A tank can hold two turtles. <font color="Black">Miharo 16:00, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * (EC) Do you need a map vincent? you can easily stand between both turtles (south of green mine) and tank two seiges and at least two players. Also if both turtles are at the inner gates of the fort, you can stand in the middle near the north wall to block their movement. <font face="Calibri" color=black>Chieftain Alex  16:01, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I see, Alex. However, while a tank can hold two turtles, why should it be that a physical itself should hold turtles? Playing as a team is not hard and if you are taking damage from two turtles plus players then you'll only go down faster. Hexes and conditions (hell, one can even extend this to stance removal as well) are existent which would make the tank go down. This whole role is meant to mitigate turtle focus on the enemy team, but while doing so you're losing an entire player dedicated to stop turtles. You can still lose in PvP as kurzicks if they have no turtles, and while you're down to 7 players, you'll only be hurting your team in a different fashion. I'm going to sometime test to see if one can tank two turtles above with Xinrae's from the castle ledge. I know what spot you're talking about. Either way, a physical should not be trying to tank turtles, but rather putting out an exceptional amount of damage to kill key targets. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 16:12, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Seriously, how often do Luxons win without turtles? If they do, it's cause your team sucks and you were gonna lose either way. You can stay alive quite some time with this, it's hard to shut down(Sure you can int the two main heals but imba armor and stance regen is pretty hard to counter. No one brings Wild-skills and/or ignorance). If you die, you wait 5-10 sec for res and Sprint out and "catch" the turtles again and repeat the process. If you're unlucky/a bad player, you won't stall them the whole game but you're still buying a lot of time. If the two turtles+2 players focus on you for a few minutes, you've pretty much won. <font color="Black">Miharo 16:20, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * No matter how much anyone theorises about why this is bad, it wins games like nothing else. You will never see a w/l like the one you get when you're playing a tank on kurzick, and it's always been that way. Azazello 16:24, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * It wins because its FA. It wins, however. You can stall turtles+1/2/3+All the monks that dont understand that they will never save the turtle, depending on how many noobs luxons have in their team. However I prefer having a player instead of a tank. If your team is good enough, you dont care about turtles. Many builds vetted for FA work because players in FA are most of the time idiots. For example the wastrel spam kills every player that is not intelligent enough to understand that you must waste a skill if you want to survive, and that are not intelligent enough to understand that if they fake one skill, the enemy will waste its PI and the build will be useless on them. [[Image:40px-Crippling Shot.jpg|19px]] <font color="DarkGreen">Chonsy <font color="DarkGreen">Rulez  16:59, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * It wins because it's FA and the build is eminently suited to winning in FA. Again, you will never see a w/l like the one you get when you're playing a tank on kurzick, and it's always been that way. Azazello 17:15, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Two reason why this shouldn't be vetted
1. If it gets vetted, many more people will run this, vastly increasing the chances of multiple tanks per game. Any more than 1 (or 2 at a push) on the kurzick side just become a wasted slot on the team.

2. Luxons will catch on soon anyway and will start taking Wastrel's Demise/Worry in combination with interrupts, which completely trashes this build. Random Weird Guy 14:05, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * 3. As I already said, Ranger> This since it can tank turtles and do something after killing them. [[Image:40px-Crippling Shot.jpg|19px]] <font color="DarkGreen">Chonsy <font color="DarkGreen">Rulez  14:13, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * (Edit conflict)
 * We have builds like Air of Enchantment prot spam vetted, and I've never seen more than one of them in a game.
 * People already use WW/WD, and if they took psychic, then you use dolyak. Leech signet/Cry of frustration will shut down either troll or signet, but not both. MR will give you a crapload of regeneration of energy and health - you can beat off WW/WD by spamming healing signet + unguent. I guess energy surge might be a pain in the arse, but still have healing signet. Only shut down would be the laugh-worthy combination of stance removal, energy denial and ignorance. <font face="Calibri" color=black>Chieftain Alex  14:18, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Its a supposition, but we cant ignore it. If you get two Air of Enhantment monks, you can prot both sides of the fort and, when you are to Green gate, one can prot gunther and the other prots players, and when one dies the other is there. But with two tanks, can you guess what could happen? If this gets meta Kurzicks will have like 2 Tanks 50% of the time, and as 75% of the players in FA are noobs, you can guess what will happen. [[Image:40px-Crippling Shot.jpg|19px]] <font color="DarkGreen">Chonsy <font color="DarkGreen">Rulez  14:36, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you forget that PvX records frequently used bars, it doesn't really create them. <font face="Calibri" color=black>Chieftain Alex  14:42, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes but when you put it here it gets known to more and more people, while if it remains "unknown" it will not be used frequently. HOWEVER

SHUTDOWN BAR!!!!!1!!!11!!! <font color="DarkGreen">Chonsy <font color="DarkGreen">Rulez  14:48, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * You can shut this down with just dshot, locking out healsig and troll. Still, tanks are really strong. Azazello 15:01, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * If you get 2 monks in RA you're fucked too. That's not an argument against a build. Also, this wins. Not because it's good, but because it's fucking lame, just like FA. <font color="Black">Miharo 15:07, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Im really sorry about the obvious horrible joke, I...must...resist... right? [[Image:40px-Crippling Shot.jpg|19px]] <font color="DarkGreen">Chonsy <font color="DarkGreen">Rulez   15:33, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Point? <font color="Black">Miharo 15:40, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Thing is,if this starts to be used frequently,luxons will just start to bring Wild Blow and without MR,any WW/WD can finish you in seconds.This is rather easy to counter in fact,its viability relies only on the fact that it is very unexpected and most often you won't see Wild Blow on any Luxon.Vet this and it will lose its whole efectiveness.Brave Lord 19:30, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Chonsy is that the ranger tank bar you keep bringing up? &#9823;Fianchetto [[Image:Mending.jpg|19px|link=User_talk:Fianchetto]] 19:39, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * N/A JQ bomber is vetted and no one build wars against it. PvX doesn't control the meta, the meta controls PvX. <font color="Black">Miharo 23:41, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * PvX reflects the meta. Builds can still get trashed even if they're popular-- Relyk 00:07, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * True. Either way, I highly doubt people will bring Wild Blow to counter this, it's been around for ages. And it's not an argument against vetting it. <font color="Black">Miharo 08:32, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Yep Fianchetto. However, Its FA, and people will not bring Wild Blow to counter this. They will never bring something to counter something. Only 0.0001% of Luxons (2 Players, more or less) will bring it. [[Image:40px-Crippling Shot.jpg|19px]] <font color="DarkGreen">Chonsy <font color="DarkGreen">Rulez  09:26, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Honestly,i'm not so sure of that.Heavy use of prot enchantments by kurzick monks led to a massive use of enchantment removals on luxon side.Likewise,the increase of amber running builds led to an increase in snares on luxon side.It's true,likely most people won't bother to try countering this,but remember that a single Wild Blow and an interrupt is enough to take this down.And considering interrupts are already popular in FA,we're only talking about a single skill.That's why i believe people will start considering taking that one skill to finish this off.But then again it's all relative,i don't think many people will run this build anyway,just sitting in the same place and spamming the same skills over and over again is rather boring in my opinion.Brave Lord 14:37, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Optionals
Lets talk about Optionals. For example NS vs Sprint. NS is 33% for 5 s, that should, I guess, be enough to reach the first tanking place, and its 50% block that helps tanking players. Sprint is almost constant 25% that is less then NS, but is eternal, and you can reach the tanking place very fast. "IWS!" is completely useless since you have +4 Melandru's regen per condition and +7 from Troll. Its enough I guess. I took out Shield Bash (yes, it was me) because fakes + block(s) is enough to stop a ranger. <font color="DarkGreen">Chonsy <font color="DarkGreen">Rulez  17:37, 14 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I just observed the original guy I stole this shit from, and he has Healing Spring instead of IWS! (used prot defence to cast it) - resulted in half lux team ragequitting. <font face="Calibri" color=black>Chieftain Alex  20:41, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Sprint should probably be mainbar. Shield Bash owns prot defense vs. interrupts but w/e, ranger interrupts isn't really a problem. The biggest problem is armor ignoring damage. <font color="Black">Miharo 23:41, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Every build is fucked against armor ignoring dmg, you cant put it as a counter. And however you need sooo much armor ignoring damage+rupts to take this down. 2-3 PI mesmers, I guess. <font color="DarkGreen">Chonsy <font color="DarkGreen">Rulez [[Image:Melandru's Shot.jpg|19px]]  11:25, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I must be unlucky, got trained on by forceful blow warrior (meta hammer) and ranger with dshot (common as fuck) <font face="Calibri" color=black>Chieftain Alex  12:09, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, youre unlucky, I have never seen a forceful blow warrior in fa, and rangers are rare (at least, those who dont random rupt are rare) <font color="DarkGreen">Chonsy <font color="DarkGreen">Rulez [[Image:Melandru's Ranger Chonsy.JPG|link=User:ChonsyRulez]]  13:42, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, warriors are pretty much never run on the luxon side, so you got the short end of the stick. <font color="Black">Miharo 16:22, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Wtb screenshots
Wtb all your screenshots of you running this build to make luxons ragequit. <font face="Calibri" color=black>Chieftain Alex 12:20, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Usually if I get a melandru's tank in my team there's at least one luxon shouting: "lol abuser noob" or something like that. Ill save the screenshot if I get one again. <font color="DarkGreen">Chonsy <font color="DarkGreen">Rulez [[Image:Melandru's Ranger Chonsy.JPG|link=User:ChonsyRulez]]  13:42, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Stalled one monk and one ele for the whole game
. While I stalled the monk and the turtle I continously dazed the elementalist and he couldnt breach the gate. <font color="DarkGreen">Chonsy <font color="DarkGreen">Rulez   14:54, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Then they were both awful because they should have used the battlements to obstruct you, the monk should have removed dazed (degen and bow autos needs mad powerheals!!!), and anyone else should have killed you. There's a difference between being able to stall the odd turtle because people are bad and being designed to consistently hold one, if not both of the turtles. Pew   Pew ♥   15:52, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah stalling one turlte+one player isn't the same. <font color="Black">Miharo 16:22, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * And if luxons are good they just attack you and kill you all the time with the Melandru's tank. But that doesnt matter, I guess? <font color="DarkGreen">Chonsy <font color="DarkGreen">Rulez [[Image:Melandru's Ranger Chonsy.JPG|link=User:ChonsyRulez]]  16:48, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually no, it doesn't. If you tie up half their team and two turtles for twenty seconds each time you respawn, you're going to win. Yes, rangers also dominate on defense, for different reasons. Why the hell was an ele nuking you for an entire game btw? Sounds like you tied up a bot. Azazello 17:29, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Nope, the ele was nuking the gate, then I rupted the first 2s cast skill he casted with concussion, and he retreated, and all the game like that. <font color="DarkGreen">Chonsy <font color="DarkGreen">Rulez [[Image:Melandru's Ranger Chonsy.JPG|link=User:ChonsyRulez]]  17:52, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Well if the ele couldn't grasp that you were gonna rupt him then he was a bot/a very very very bad player. Either way, the point is that with this build luxons are forced to either ignore you(and lose their turtles) or focus fire(2-3 players at least) EVERY time you respawn. It's all about buying time. <font color="Black">Miharo 18:10, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes yes I got the point of the build. But, if your team is good (Dont tell me, lol, FA teams are never good) you shouldnt even be worried about turtles <font color="DarkGreen">Chonsy <font color="DarkGreen">Rulez [[Image:Melandru's Shot.jpg|19px|link=User:ChonsyRulez]]  10:49, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

just saw you on lux side. we won with the worst team ever lol. &#9823;Fianchetto 17:40, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh really? Who were you? Well, you won because our team was terrible. I had 2 people from my guild (one noob war, one elementalist without elite and secondary), a mesmer with a pet, a kamikaze derv, no healers, no turtles because of dumb AI of lux warriors, lol <font color="DarkGreen">Chonsy <font color="DarkGreen">Rulez [[Image:Melandru's Ranger Chonsy.JPG|link=User:ChonsyRulez]]  17:52, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * i was trying out some terra tanks. teammates need to leave my lux wars alone >:O &#9823;Fianchetto [[Image:Mending.jpg|19px|link=User_talk:Fianchetto]] 19:08, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Optional 2: "This Build is a Piece of Shit" Boogaloo
"Passive healing (Remember to activate one blocking skill while using this, or pre-cast it)." A block skill isn't mainbarred, also there is only one optional, so it's either bring this "passive heal", a block, or some other random optional that hardly matters. :D <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]   19:26, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes. <font color="Black">Miharo 20:24, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Just saw Alex's phrase where he said the original build had healing spring, and I was editing the build so I decided to put it as optional. Actually, I dont care, remove it/do whatever you want <font color="DarkGreen">Chonsy <font color="DarkGreen">Rulez [[Image:Melandru's Shot.jpg|19px|link=User:ChonsyRulez]]  10:39, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

turtle sniping
is there any spot outside the fort where you could longbow a turtle without leaving the other turtle's aggro range? i've never tested this inside the fort though. &#9823;Fianchetto 17:25, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I've seen someone tank both turtles in the gulley between the two gates, that could be close enough to long/flatbow one of them. Pew   Pew ♥   17:35, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * The spot south of green mine is fine for longbowing one turtle + keeping aggro. <font face="Calibri" color=black>Chieftain Alex  18:02, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

troll build
Why is this being entertained as a real build idea/that it wins games? ~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs 18:33, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * cause it wins. <font color="Black">Miharo 19:24, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Fine. I won't try to stop you trying to get this vetted, because I don't play FA. This to me is running EoE on Kurzick side and opening gates for Luxons... ~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs 19:33, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * This is like EoE on luxon side. Abuse the mechanisms of FA. <font color="Black">Miharo 20:13, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * EoE is shit for both sides, that is a very bad example. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 20:16, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * No... It's bad for Kurdicks because all the gate-guardian people are human. Turtles aren't humans, ergo it's not shit for both sides. ~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs 21:50, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Turtles are in base and EoE is triggered. Everyone dies. Kurzicks and Luxons respawn. Kurzicks kill both turtles while Luxons walk back from quarry/spawn. There goes all your offense. It's been done before and nobody benefits from EoE. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 22:04, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * No. Turtles are in base and EoE is triggered. Luxons win. <font color="Black">Miharo 22:18, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Assuming that EoE is being used constantly rather than done at the very last moment, "inside the base" constitutes anywhere from the outer gates all the way to the green gate. Stop spinning the argument. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 22:28, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * No one drops EoE randomly just because they're inside the base... <font color="Black">Miharo 22:44, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * What am I supposed to attack here, "randomly"? No fucking shit people wouldn't randomly drop EoE. They would drop it trying to kill Luxons. Doing it on the outside though keeps the inner, and more important NPCs alive. But, while they do kill themselves, they would also kill the luxons. When they res back (which is v. quick in FA if you ever played it) they'll just kill turtles with the green gate NPCs, or at the very least the gatekeepers + gunther, alive; hence is why EoE is bad for both sides. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan  <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 22:51, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Dur. Gunther dies along with all those fags that just died from EoE, rite? Get him past 90% and you win. ~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs 23:27, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * If you are a fucking idiot and place EoE in spirit range of Gunther. :D <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 23:45, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Ok, you're clutching at straws now, turning to offensive language. Seriously? If you are planning on planting EoE, you will put it in range of Gunther, which is fine to hug the outside of his gate. ~<font face="Calibri" color=black>Soi_ɹәʞɔ!ʇs 01:05, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not clutching straws, I just know that EoE is shit for both sides because I actually play FA. :D <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 13:16, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Why Breaking Game Mechanics ≠ a good build
So, while in my free time between LoL matches, I decided to play a bit of FA and abuse game mechanics.
 * Muddy Terrain makes games lulzy
 * That run skill is actually fairly interesting
 * Another turtle delayed
 * moo
 * while my team was turtled (no pun intended) back inside green, I wanted to get the other turtle
 * the 8 indicated a delicious ks! I must be a good player
 * lolskillbar
 * one skill skillbar
 * obligatory kill pic because one way or another, some random PvX FA shitter will make some complaint

Really, I just wanted to fuck around with this. Xinrae's is overpowered in FA (like how gothspike was for TA) due to counter-mechanics. Technically, I could tank the turtles and a few players with xinrae's alone (which I did for a bit) but that itself doesn't make itself a good build. I was surprised I didn't get flamed or reported by teammates because every single time I showed them my build so they knew what they were playing with. Many of them were actually surprised! this sin stayed out of my heal range which seemed to be counterproductive to his statements How does this relate to the Mels Tank (which I did not see being ran whatsoever)? Simply put: troll builds have no place on PvX. Nobody would ever post one of those builds that I used in FA, and although they worked due to certain mechanics per build, with many just revolving around spamming Xinrae's, they shouldn't be vetted. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]   22:51, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't see you tanking two turtles, actually killing the turtle is worse for your team since you've freed the warriors to rush your team. <font face="Constantia" color=Gray >Chieftain Alex  23:15, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Killing the turtle is always better than delaying it. The warriors can't kill your NPCs, so they aren't a problem. In fact, kill the turtle then bring IoP to keep Luxon Warriors alive to delay turtle attacks instead.-- Relyk 23:21, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Im technically tanking turtles because they're focus is at me and they are attempting to damage me. I simply tanking from afar and sustaining my health with Xinrae's with, similar to tanks, mitigates damage. Although I have lower health I simply just prot myself. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 23:43, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Vincent, what are you on? You're not tanking both turtles + players = not comparable. This is a troll build, abusing game mechanics, which can be said about the stored N/R EoE bomber and N/A JQ bomber(not to mention the archived glitch builds like E/A ice spear). <font color="Black">Miharo 00:03, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I disagree Relyk, warriors can't kill npcs, but they can make it harder to keep them alive, and they move faster without the turtle. Plus anyone whose played FA has seen what happens when retards kill both turtles while green is down. 8 warriors inside green is GG very quickly. The thing about tank builds is that they can tank the turtles all day half the time, which is free wins, and even when they don't the turtle squads rarely make it to green gate anyway. No warriors and no turtles is better than eight warriors and no turtles. I'm not sure what you're talking about Vincent, if the build is run and it wins, I'm pretty sure it usually gets stored. Really not sure what you mean with all the Xinrae stuff. Turtle tanks win games, even if they can only tank one turtle? We know that already, it's the larger part of why rangers are good on defense. Azazello 00:12, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * the point of W/R is that it can tank several players in addition to stalling turtles and turtle healers. yes, that's relying on enemy behavior, but it still happens all the time. plenty of stubborn players lock on to me every time i ran W/R. however, that's pretty much all it can do (which is usually good enough in 11-12 minute games). Xinrae's healing support is nice, and generic ranger with Unguent is more widely useful too. &#9823;Fianchetto [[Image:Mending.jpg|19px|link=User_talk:Fianchetto]] 00:18, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Meh, lots of non-versatile builds make it into CM, because of the specific maps(examples mentioned above). This is just one of them. <font color="Black">Miharo 09:30, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Miharo, you are an absolute idiot. You are able to tank turtles with Xinrae's, which is what this build does. It abuses game mechanics much more effectively than this trashed tank build. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 13:14, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * And you, Vincent, can't even make an argument without resorting to namecalling. Congrats. First you complain about breaking game mechanics, then about how it can be done better. 2 turtles is still better than one. <font color="Black">Miharo 14:51, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Lol, clearly though my argument is right otherwise this build wouldnt be trashed. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 15:17, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * This made me laugh. The build got more 5s for effectiveness than all other ratings combined. It's trashed because pvx. Azazello 16:14, 17 April 2012 (UTC)16:14, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Build trashed thus I'm an idiot? Must be. <font color="Black">Miharo 15:43, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Please re-read my previous comment, also, quit being butthurt. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 15:46, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Trash Voters
1. This is fucking FA, pull the stick out of your ass.

2. This stalls turtles effectively almost every single time.

3. This is fucking FA.

That is all. 12:27, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Haha I found it amusing :) The argument against is 'use glitches and you'll do just as well, maybe even better!'. Azazello 13:17, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Or you know, you could actually be a benefit to your team instead of dicking around next to turtles. But whatever suits your tastes. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 13:19, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I heard winning the game benefits your team. Just what I heard ;) Azazello 13:21, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Your vote and Soi's vote make no sense at all actually. You're still arguing about Xinraes, and you showed us a bunch of screenies of you tanking one turtle with it. Sadly, one turtle < two. Soi's is flat out wrong, it's not a matter of opinion. The build wins, a LOT, so clearly it's a solution to a problem that does in fact exist. A rather effective solution. The other two are just saying 'glitch them', which is fine, if you need to abuse the game to get the same effect as this bar, I'm actually unsurprised. Azazello 13:26, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * (EC)Tanking turtles has always been an inefficient way of staling the team. The more you die from the less effective it is to tank them. All it takes is team focus which is not hard to muster assuming you know how to corral your team. Once you die, the turtles advance further into range of X NPCs. You can no longer tank with your awesome build and mega ego without gaining some positive momentum. One way or another the turtle will kill someone, the monk will heal the turtle as it kills (along with its team), or the team will just focus damage onto you and die. Once turtles have breached gates, this tank is useless. You are down to 7v8 and most likely going to lose depending on your team setup. If you're lucky, you'll have X amount of monks who have actually be carrying the team the whole time and will now pick up your slack because you decided to run a tank in PvP. But wait, you see that I am actually in your group and with my illustrious vigor, I voluntarily come to your aid and show you how to actually tank behind turtles and hide behind teles and as I spam Xinrae's, you see that I better at playing against turtles than you. Bewildered at my amazement, you try to put what I am doing into your own words. You fail at first, but then you figure its best to use your coveted term "tanking" to describe what I am doing. I smile softly at your naivety and how you think delaying turtles with a physical is "meta", especially in an arena, but I disregard you and I kill the turtle from afar with Xinrae's, acting like a fucking master as I gain that balthazar faction. Just what I heard. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 13:29, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Sounds pretty homo. <font face="Cuckoo" color=Fuchsia >P <font face="Comic Sans MS" color=Aqua >e <font face="Monotype Corsiva" color=lime >W  :> 13:44, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Not as homo as me crossdressing and kissing a mannequin doll in the attic. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 13:57, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Guys this build sucks no matter what you say. Instead of stalling people, you can kill em. Instead of stalling turtles, you can kill em. End of the story. <font color="DarkGreen">Chonsy <font color="DarkGreen">Rulez   13:33, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Fact is, tanking them works better than killing them, and it has for at least four years. It's pretty easy to test the W/L numbers yourself if you have the time. If I cbf and I just want some easy wins, I load up a tank. It's boring as shit but it kills some time. That's FA. Azazello 13:47, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * It's like the ranger thing. You think you're really winning when you rupt all the monks shit and degen the turtle out, but the real win was the 12 turtle shots you took for the npcs, because turtles only get to fire about 50 times each in an entire game, even if they never die, and never have to move to fire. There are times when you can effectively 'timekill' a turtle that will have a big impact, but usually, tanking them is much, much better. Azazello 13:49, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * More on this: including waiting for warriors to die, and respawning, it takes a turtle that dies between the inner and outer gates 2 minutes to get back there. That means for every minute you can tank both turtles over the course of the entire game you effectively killed one turtle. More often than not, you can tank both for the whole game, I'm just outlining this for those times vincent is mentioning, when you can 'corral your team' in FA and kill the tank (lol catherder). So you're buying time at the rate of one turtle a minute. Now, if you were killing turtles at the rate of one a minute, you would be buying the same amount of time. Unfortunately, that's impossible, because they don't respawn fast enough. Killing turtles instantly shuts them out for the whole game. Tanking turtles endlessly shuts them out for the whole game. So, except for the fact that killing them releases warriors, they're equal at best. The further you get from that absolute, the better tanking them is. Besides which, if players are also coming to kill you, you're still buying time. I'm sad that I actually went and tested this, stopwatch and all, because it is really, really fucking OBVIOUS that tanking them wins more games than killing them to anyone who has actually played enough to try both. Azazello 15:02, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * "Not healthy to promote trolling in FA." Laughing so hard, holy shit. Someone hasn't seen the EoE bomber. [[Image:They.jpg|36px|link=User:They]] 14:06, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I must admit this is an epic win for Rask <font color="DarkGreen">Chonsy <font color="DarkGreen">Rulez [[Image:Melandru's Shot.jpg|19px|link=User:ChonsyRulez]]  16:17, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * You guys are stubborn asshats, it wins games, period. You can "claim" it's not as effective, but that's just pvx being pvx. So stop being pvx and start being me. [[Image:They.jpg|36px|link=User:They]] 17:05, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * A McDonald's worker? No thanks. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 17:07, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Three of the four trash votes are one person saying 'glitch turtles' and two people saying 'ive never even seen someone running this, and im utterly clueless, but i have a few theories about it'. The disparity in rating between those who tested it and those who did not is ridiculous. The effectiveness ratings from people who tried it are 5-5-5-5-5-5-4-4. 3 people didn't try it and gave it 1-2-3, despite having all their arguments repeatedly refuted, and it's trashed. But both those arguments have been done to death :P Azazello 17:28, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * There was no need for that NPA, I am fairly sure a job is a job in the current economic climate... Stop being butthurt about this build. I think its just as stupid as you do that a tank works in a pvp format, but just accept the fact that it works. None of your arguments have particularly made sense as of yet, the xinrae's rit just can't do what this build does. Your vote is also terrible, it is out of 5 for a reason, 1-0-0 would be flare spammer or similar. Rawr

Vincent, Soi, Tahiri's Votes
Should be removed. The 'reasoning' for them has been shown to be fallacious, repeatedly in Vincents case. Unless better reasons are provided they're simply invalid. Vincent and Tahiris votes also deviate so far from the modal average that they're clearly not following voting guidelines regarding trying to counter other users votes. The rationale for Tahiris vote applies to every build tagged for FA that does not heal. On top of that, all three gave zero universality, which as far as I'm aware, consitutes an empty bar. I don't care in the slightest if the build gets trashed, it's boring to play and boring to play against. I do think that people should follow voting guidelines and be able to back up their vote with either reasoning or experience. Azazello 19:40, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * By "shown I'm presuming you mean your wall of texts? Relax. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 19:53, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * He makes a point. You are votebalancing which is against policy. Rawr 19:57, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * There is nothing wrong with the aforementioned votes that would get them removed.-- Relyk 20:04, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Back to the kitchen. You're a warrior primary, WHERE IS YOUR WARRIOR SPIRIT?! [[Image:They.jpg|36px|link=User:They]] 20:05, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I am fairly sure votebalancing is against policy and a reason to remove; it defeats the entire point of a voting system. I am perfectly happy with people thinking the build is terrible as long as they give it a reasonable score based around their reasoning, which hasn't really been done. This is not a 1-0-0 bar. Rawr 20:10, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * It isn't vote balancing, Vincent provided a pretty clear reason for his rating and a section of this talk to support it. Admins aren't going to vote police the build.-- Relyk 20:21, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Vincents vote is predicated on the false premise that xinraes weapon can do what this does, despite the fact the he himself shows that it does less than half. It flagrantly misrepresents the builds ability, evidenced by the fact that all testing shows it to perform significantly better than he theorises it should. This fact also indicates that he lacks intimate familiarity with the mechanics of FA, as if he had a solid understanding, his vote would be more in line with how the build has been seen to actually perform. It does not therefore consitute an objective judgement of the builds abilities. He was immediately antagonistic in his approach to the discussion, and grew more so when he discovered that his comment about insidious parasite was in error. Considering the lack of real support he has provided for his vote, 1-0-0 is unquestionably votebalancing. Those are all breaches of the vetting policy, and the other two votes have similar flaws. Azazello 20:24, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Dude shush. It's blatantly obvious that they're being pig-headed (even by MY standards). Just let it die and go on with your life. They'll feel like big men on the internet and you'll retain most of your dignity as well as the respect of the pvx illuminati. @Rawr, who cares, let it go. GW2 is around the corner and these asshats can't tell pvp from pve. [[Image:They.jpg|36px|link=User:They]] 20:36, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * No. They're deliberately manipulating the voting system, not that it matters in any way, but then why even have a policy? Azazello 20:41, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * You're better than them! I know you have it in you to let it go. [[Image:They.jpg|36px|link=User:They]] 20:42, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * No, I'm asking them here to reconsider their votes. If they don't, I'll notify an admin and forget about it. The votes are in error, I'm asking them to fix it, what's the big deal? Azazello 20:45, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I wish you luck in your crusade to stop the big bad pvx vote bullies. After you're done being an internet savior you can help me shop for capes. [[Image:They.jpg|36px|link=User:They]] 20:47, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * He is simply trying to enforce policy, stop playing around Rawr 20:49, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Really? That's how you see this? It's a giant edrama that I want to follow a policy? Azazello 20:52, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Also, wtf big bad pvx bullies? LoL? I'm at a loss for words. Azazello 20:53, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * On the contrary, I think THEY (irony?) are the ones causing drama. I know the build works, I've tested it and I've seen it in practice. I just think both you and rawr are setting yourselves up for disappointment. [[Image:They.jpg|36px|link=User:They]] 20:57, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Don't worry about me, you have to be invested to be disappointed, and I really don't care either way if the build is vetted. I just love pointing out when people are saying illogical things, it's pretty much my favourite thing. In this case the illogical things they're saying happen to conflict with the sites policy, and it costs me nothing to point it out. Azazello 21:01, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * ^what he said, this entire discussion basically goes to show the entire rating system is bunk and imo the builds should just be managed by MCs - not that it will change or I care! Rawr 21:06, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is vote balancing. His reasoning provided so far does not constitute a 1-0-0 vote whatsoever, which would suggest the build does not work at all, which it does. Rawr 20:46, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * There is no point in having policy if it isn't used. I know the admins are not going to remove their votes, nor am i asking to, I'm simply asking them to change numbers to reflect what they genuinely think of the build. His comparison between this bar and xinrae's is also generally irrelevant as they perform different roles as stated above, whilst they are similar, it is not the same role. Rawr 20:46, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Going to get a popsicle so I can watch this play out in style. [[Image:They.jpg|36px|link=User:They]] 20:48, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think vincent is changing his vote given the discussion so far and admins aren't going to remove it, so it's beating a dead horse :/-- Relyk 21:01, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Fuck off and quit moaning. Whorus have been trying to vet garbage builds on here for years. They nearly never get their way by bitching about votes being unfair because the trash votes are almost always spot on.--TahiriVeila 21:29, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh hey, thanks for reminding me, does NPA still apply? Azazello 21:31, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * nope, and i'm pretty sure cursing doesn't constitute a personal attack. Stop trying to be a wiki-lawyer, that's another thing that never works around here. You have to earn respect by showing that you have a good knowledge of game mechanics and how the meta works. Screaming to try and ram through a bad theorycraft bar won't get you anywhere Also: your build deserves a zero for universality because it packs zero utility: it dedicates an entire skillbar to performing a single task that is not useful. It gets a 2 in effectiveness because it is moderately capable of performing that useless task. Now fuck off.--TahiriVeila 21:34, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * No, I wasn't asking about you telling me to fuck off and quit moaning, I was asking about Vincent calling other people idiots and the like from the top of this page to the bottom. Now, would you like to actually counter the point I made about how irrelevant the rationale for your vote is, or can I assume you're not thinking about changing your vote? Azazello 21:37, 17 April 2012 (UTC)21:37, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * That's better, 1-0-0 is still way too low though. Jake so angry, I think with yours its 3-0-0 because it isn't exactly a useless task, but lolgw. Someone has to wiki lawyer really, this build isn't exactly someone trying to vet another shitty mathway... Rawr 21:38, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Have you actually read your vote and mine? I explain why it's garbage, you just posted a fragmented sentence that seems to imply it wins a lot (in your vaunted experience). Now which one seems like a more logical reasoning for a now? Now calm your fucking tits and stop causing drama--TahiriVeila 21:41, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * If disagreeing with people on the internets constitutes drama, all the worlds a stage. Did you want to try to counter that point now? Azazello 21:47, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * As opposed to trying to deflect attention away from it and onto my vote that is. 21:48, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * You all are idiots. No one is changing their vote, no admin is removing them, the discussion is going nowhere, so drop it. You all are clogging up the recent changes. >.< oh, and Azazello, you seem to defend the build a lot despite your claims of not caring if it gets trashed :P-- Ultimak719 LIKE A BOSS!  21:50, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * The irony makes me giggle. I just explained to you why its bad and asked you why you don't give any reasoning for why it's good. And, in order to deflect that question, you accuse me of deflection. Somebody get this fucker a medal.--TahiriVeila 21:52, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Since you seem to have forgotten the point I made: "The rationale for Tahiris vote applies to every build tagged for FA that does not heal." To be fair it should say designed for kurzicks rather than FA generally, and should say heal/prot, but other than that, it's accurate. Ulti I already explained why, did you miss that section? Azazello 22:02, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Would you like to deny that? Azazello 22:02, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure you've read my vote. The build performs and unnecessary role. It dedicates an entire skill bar to a task that can be performed by any damage dealing caster. It has no capacity for damage and has no utility. It's garbage. Why are you still arguing? And deflecting? Simply ignoring the arguments people provide for why this is garbage won't get it vetted >.> --TahiriVeila 22:07, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * What part of 'I don't care if this gets vetted' are people having trouble with? Thanks for editing your vote, but now you're simply agreeing with the damage>tanking turtles argument, which everyone who has tried both has already seen to be false and demonstrated with their votes. With your edits, you're making the same breaches Vincent made. Azazello 22:15, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * okay i give up you win, hf, better things to do than speak sense to a kid looking for drama--TahiriVeila 22:19, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Not looking for drama, just asking that you defend your statements. Somehow disagreeing with people who aren't making any sense means I've got a hardon for a build? What a weird and wonderful world Azazello 22:26, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Hey guys what's going on in this thread? <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]   22:08, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * downs syndrome and some whoru trolling like hell--TahiriVeila 22:10, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I think whoru is my new favourite term. It just screams 'small ponds 4lyf!' :) Azazello 22:15, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Jake go back to the pvp section. THIS IS F MOTHERFUCKING A! [[Image:They.jpg|36px|link=User:They]] 22:19, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * My bad, i forgot that FA is really PvE. Carry on.--TahiriVeila 22:27, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Duh, tank bar remember? You need a coffee? ;) Azazello 22:36, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * FA and pretty much every non-high end arena have been the most interesting pvp formats in my opinion. They're introductory and offer some nice casual PvP, but like 80% of the players are idiotic. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 22:38, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

this page was nice relaxing reading. the only thing i can point out is most people are forgetting/ignoring the fact that this commonly stalls a few players in addition to turtles (and turtle healers), which is actually why this makes a game-winning difference at all. the best place to get attention and thus stall players is outside the fort, near the beginning of the game - there's a spot where you can camp slightly above the north turtle and degen it down. in between the 2 pits is the other good spot where you can gain attention. anywhere else is too crowded and they won't notice you. i can't tell how many times i've tanked the whole game outside the fort and there's always 2-4 players wasting their time on me. THAT, folks, is what wins the game. it's fun annoying them with emotes too... isn't it wonderful what you can learn by actually testing builds? &#9823;Fianchetto 00:26, 18 April 2012 (UTC)