Build talk:Team - MTSC Kurzick FFF

Since I can't re-revert it I'll just say it here...it's not great, it's not meta, change it to something else.-- D igit0l  Q u33r  02:32, August 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * Maybe make some of the sins bring a different elite instead of so much Wounding Strike...with a 3 second recharge I'm sure there is more than enough deepwound/bleeding to go around...maybe have like 1 or 2 sins bring something else? also is 1 bonder going to be able to maintain 11 bonds? maybe replace 1 sin for another bonder? Also,  whats the time difference between this build and Dual Discord way? is it worth it?--XdaC 04:00, August 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * I dont think you will make this vq with discord in 18 mins:)-- God Focused Anger.jpg Kamil 12:14, August 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * HzH alliance does this more then DTSC. To us, it's "Great" and more of a "meta" build then DSC. Considering the fact we have 3 times more faction coming in everyday then the #2 (Altrumm) alliance. IxlKennylxl 13:50, August 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Adac, it's possible that changing some of the assassin's elites would make this build faster, but I'm a huge fan of more generic builds because it makes it easier to recruit among pugs. The more specialized build that you have, the longer it'll take to form teams.  Why take an extra couple minutes to form a team if you only save a couple minutes anyways?  --Supernick530 13:57, August 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * You think WotA Sins would work too? Orphus 14:55, August 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Also I went to Euro-French dis and there was no one there :( Orphus 16:00, August 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Today is the first day that we are accepted PUGs if there is any. It's been less then 20 hours that this has been on PvX and someone changed it to Trail so less people will see it. IxlKennylxl 17:21, August 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * IMO: anything is better than DTSC....if you pug DTSC you're lucky if you get 50mins (you can dual discord it in ~49)(but just for now im going to pretend discord doesn't exist while discussing this build lol)...but 45 minutes is listed as fastest speed in MTSC...I would take the slowest speed into effect because not everyone will do this flawlessly every run. (As well as knowing most people, the average run time speed is actually somewhere around 46minutes...but to make thsi seem better they just subtracted a few minutes from the actual average run time to include "Faster teams" (because imo a 5min gap seems a bit much to be "average"). I'm interested in going on a few runs with you guys if possible, to see if there is anything I might be able to suggest that may help =)--XdaC 18:33, August 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * The build was changed back to trial because builds here are vetting by our community, not yours. 72.148.243.147 17:33, August 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * When do you guys normally do this? I'd like to join in, if possible (I'm a sin). Orphus 19:10, August 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * We are doing this with two WotA sins to split in certain areas and reduce the time about five minutes. I am getting 20-22 minutes runs all the time with a reward of aprox 22k. Defenitely better than DTSC. Only problem is that I get groups only thru the ally chat of HzH ally, well problem for pugs not for me :). And yeah for our ally this is definetively our meta.--Kilikan 04:52, August 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * For me there's only one problem - unskilled people. As you said we're spliting in certain areas to make the whole run faster but sometimes other guys are confused and it causes in not faster but slower run. Same with the new guys. When someone asks us how to MTSC we only say "Get build, join and do what others do" however when they start doing it they don't know how to use bonds or run whole distance to seed tank instead of casting it on the Mo/P standing next to him. However this problem will always be as we always get new guys for MTSC, otherwise it's good to see that many people want to join our runs and realize there's something better than DTSC or JQ. We still have to beat record of 15mins but with each run we're getting closer to it. You know..practice makes perfect ;] Matiasko 8:13, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

Holy Crap
Wow nice guys i've tried this over and over again it's amazing exept i've made my own few changes to make it more useable and attainable for myself and ally. PS hzh ally watch out the #3 ally is gonna start to take over your little town XD
 * Yeah right :p --12.189.190.154 04:25, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

Symbiosis
Has quite a long recharge, Is it worth it or do you just drop in certain spots? Zedone2 10:45, August 12, 2010 (UTC) You dont need it really, If your UA is good, you can drop it and bring something else. --Sukasukahumdee 12:36, August 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * True however UA don't have that much to do here. If you want take something else good may be Great Dwarf Weapon or any R's skill. In same case, you don't need Cure Hex in Mo/P build and if you find something more usefull you can replace it ;] Matiasko 22:31, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

SPQR
just keep in mind that you cant try this build with SPQR. they're all lame flamers that dont like other people. 85.100.35.14 16:35, August 14, 2010 (UTC)

15 Minute Run
It seems possible to do this faster than DTSC and get more Faction: A 15 minute run is not bad. PS: If you dont believe me and think I pohotshopped that screenshot, go ahead. I dont really care. Or you could PM the HzH alliance and ask them about this record. I have since left that alliance to go work on my Luxon title, so maybe they've set an even better record, I dont know.
 * it's a shame you whited out the team structure for no sensible reason then. There is little purpose in bragging on an easily photoshop-able image; however unlikely it would be, seeing how sloppy your censorship was.--Ikimono1 08:20, August 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Nowadays you can't believe anything coz we have some tools like Paint or Photoshop, what I want to say, you can't be sure is it fake or true as long as we were there in the teams. If it's true I ask you how did you do this? Standard builds or special hybrids? Standard way or some new or maybe with split? You must answer us if you want us to believe you ;] . If it's fake..SHAME YOU! However I know it's only case between your conscience and you. Matiasko 15:44, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

It's not fake, I was in the run as UA monk. (Homeguard Smiter)

Bonders
This may be a noob question but, how are the bonders goint to maintain energy? I mean they only got blessed signet and i dont think thats enough. 62.131.122.68 14:12, August 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * balthazar's spirit on bonder Dre 14:46, August 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * And with the conset blessed signet is enough--12.189.190.154 15:20, August 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm running Mo/P so I can tell you, while maintaining 2 bonds on 5 sins you have 10bonds + Balthazar's Spirit(on yourself). I have 14 in Divine Favors so i can get 23 energy max when I use it. When using Conset I get 15 in Divine Favors so Ican manage 24 energy while using Signet and I think it's enough if you use it all time it recharges however sometimes it's impossible and it's why you have Balthazar's Spirit which grants you energy each time you get hited and thx to bonds you're hitted when Sins are hitted. In case of Mo/R he has same with Signet but must Essence Bond tanking Sin(remember to naot bond Mo/P because he's hitting with 0dmg and for Essence it doesn't count). And it's all how to get energy while bonding, hope I helped ;] Matiasko 18:57, August 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * I have run Mo/R with HzH alliance a lot the past weeks maintaining the 10 bonds is quite easy using blessed signet on recharge. Serpent's quickness speeds up the recharge.  If you are in a team with experienced WoTa's, use essence bond on those 2, at most points you don't need to cast blessed signet on recharge because they tank groups.  If you lose a lot of bonds either from chilbains or losing all energy.  Use essence bond wisely to help speed up bonding the sins back up.Blue is coming 03:48, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

On a side note, wouldn't using ER bonders be more efficient?, then you could use another scythe/wota. 62.131.122.68 19:05, August 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * No. Coz you can't have use of Seed Of Life which is most efficient mass healing spell here. What benefits (which would replace above one) could bring us E/R ? Matiasko 21:55, August 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think he meant ER as in Ether Renewal E/Mo bonders. Orphus 20:04, August 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Build:E/Mo Ether Renewal Bonder for the PvX page of said bonder (I assume).  ~ PheNaxKian talk  20:37, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

i used to run this with SPQR. on average, it was around 20-25 minutes. we had no wota sins, just 5 scythes and 3 bonders. extremely fast and almost double the faction than dtsc. however, alot of people in our alliance didnt want to do it since you had to pay for consets. you pay 1k at the begining and get... 2k at the end for vanquishing? in my opinion, MTSC > DTSC. cant wait for pugs to learn how to do this. its so much easier than dtsc...


 * Yes, since they can spam infuse for very big healing, and since everything wont ever take over 5% anyways, that should be plenty, while at the same time they can also spam GDW on your physicals. Perhaps a more Physway styled build would be more effective overall. (5x melee 1x buffer 2x ER bonders)62.131.122.68 07:10, August 17, 2010 (UTC)

No, you need 2xSeed of Life for the Mo/P at certain points. And as a bonder you aren't in range of the melee, so I dont see how you want to spam infuse, it's quite obvious that you have never played a bonder with WotA sins in the group. (Homeguard)
 * I dont think you have ever played an Ether Renewal bonder. 62.131.122.68 18:00, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

Conset
Consumable tag should be added. Each person pays the conset user 1k. The 1k is gained by finishing the VQ along with profit. So why not?
 * Forgot to sign ^ Blue is coming 03:41, August 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * There is the tag --Kilikan 04:53, August 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * We usually only pay for a BU but a full set works too i guess--TahiriVeila 05:16, August 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Conset isn't really 'required' but guess it will do >.< Blue is coming 21:08, August 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * At least all the groups formed inside the HzH ally always use a full conset. If you don't use it the time of completion increases drastically and I am not sure if it would be a good alternative to DTSC

Split

 * I am wandering how people do the split of the WOTAs. This is how I do itMTSC_with_split.jpg--Kilikan 05:21, August 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Good map to show routes. It would look nicer with clean lines, but still it should be added near WoTa section of build Blue is coming 23:25, August 25, 2010 (UTC)

Physical
Jezz, Just run any physical, the popularity is not going to be that high, hate to break it to you, people will UW for cash before they want titles. So just take anything you can get. Zedone2 05:21, August 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * You're probably right about the popularity, but maybe its easier to form PUG's if you try to find them in The Eternal Grove, where also DTsc parties are formed.. ,- Konschu [[Image:Assassin's Promise.jpg|19px]] 15:54, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

Its not for everyone
For starters the HzH ally that made this was tailoring to their own play-style, not everyone in guild wars. This build was supposed to remain in the ally but someone took it upon themselves to post it on PvX. Its very effective once u learn it and 15 minute runs become possible with amazing groups. Some of the more less popular skills all have a place in this run but are not needed such as symbiosis. Symbiosis is only for the part where Kyril Oathwarden and Sunreach Warmaker are since they are tight areas with many clusters of enemies and it helps the monks deal better when the sins have 1.3k health points but again its not needed since you seed of life the mo/p to effectively heal the entire party. Another thing is consets are not required but are highly recommended due to the fact the runs overall time will increase greatly and the monks wont be able to maintain energy to keep up 10-11 bonds. It's alright to make Small tweaks to the build here and there and not effect the time or function of the build but it should be noted that this team build was designed to clear the map in 15-25 min(anything over 25 is a waste and dtsc becomes better to FF) so any replacement of the core skills of this build is highly not recommended. One last thing I would like to clear is this speed clear(to me anyway) is 10 times better because DTSC is extremely boring and MTSC is fast paced and a very good change from DTSC. I personally farmed close to 4 million kurzick faction during the last double faction weekend just from MTSC alone.
 * hey look its the anonymous guy tells that hzh ally are pro88.251.166.229 11:11, August 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * The two main guilds that do MTSC, DRO & LLE, asked if I could put this on PvX wiki as a way of getting people more involved. They want MTSC to be more popular and involve more than just HzH alliance. IxlKennylxl 14:19, August 25, 2010 (UTC)

Skills I have replaced. Mo/R: Essence Bond, Symbiosis UA: Selfless Spirit, Heal party(seed of life the mo/p and heal party becomes useless) Mo/P: Remove Hex(only for other hex removal) A/D: Victorious Sweep for Asuran Scan(this extra attack isn't needed) A/W: This build is the best it could be imho and shouldn't be touched

Skills I used: -Air of Superiority for the Mo/R instead of Essence Bond(It was better e. management and I was able to cast Seed of life multiple times in dire situations) -For Symbiosis use your best judement on what to bring. I personally used symbiosis since it really helped the monks more than the sins in some areas. -Selfless Spirit for GDW. -Heal Party for a low energy heal of your choice(preferably one u can heal yourself with). You also shouldn't be having energy problems since heal party is gone -Remove Hex for another hex removal but the only better choice is deny hexes. -Victorious Sweep is not needed since the other 2 attacks are enough and asuran scan is more damage output.
 * "This build-related article is in the trial phase." - It's why we're testing it and trying some changes. 1st - Sign your comments coz i don't rly care about people who's nick/name I don't know ;p . 2nd - Each person feel better running other build so for someone changes will help and for someone else don't. 3rd - HzH owning ally did this whole team build and it's not like we don't want to share it with others coz we are insomniac faction riders ;p for us it's better and easier to call in Ally Chat about MTSC than stand in Unwaking Waters and wait till enough people will come (waste of time). What's more if we're MTSC'ing with ally/guild mates we can trust them, look I don't say people are thiefs but when you know your guild mate well you know he won't do anything stupid ;]. Last thing, I think MTSC is great thing and with conset you can do great faction in fast run ;] Matiasko 9:07, August 23, 2010 (UTC)

Orders
i'd say get 5 wotas and replace UA with vampiric order. they rape everything in sight, and lifesteal does its job better than UA. even a low experienced team can rape everything with it. Rip intheblue
 * Btw i really dont get channeling magic with these builds. you got 5 sins dealing 100 damage per hit, you dont need some crappy skills to add extra damage. you need a real skill like orders, lol 88.251.166.229 11:18, August 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Done this with A/D's one orders and the three monks, and it really sucked. I noticed the lack of extra damage and the orders didn't cut it. Maybe as RIP says all WotAs would be different but i am not sure about it.--Kilikan 22:04, August 27, 2010 (UTC)

I think that the bnder which has life barrier should put essence bond on the other bonder because he takes damage evrytimes a sin is attacked and i also think the UA should takes essence bond and put it on the bonder which have life bond.
 * Read essence bond once again. "You gain 1 Energy whenever target ally takes physical or elemental damage." baltha spirit, bro --Bio. 00:44, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * It sucked cause you're not supposed to run orders with the scythes, orders affects physical damage and scythes do holy damage. LordTaros 18:40, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * The extra damage from 3 players with Aura of Holy Might is significantly more dmg than orders can provide. I can't comment on the idea of 4 WotA assassin with 1 orders.  I'd be very surprised is that was better, though.  The Crit Scythes do insane damage! --Supernick530 00:20, September 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * actually crit sins hit like 100 while wotas with orders would hit 90~100 with jagged strike. orders would be much better88.241.67.35 05:10, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * had some runs with newbies. 5 wotas with orders, 20 min run. i hit 150-160 with jagged strike. this needs more tests88.251.163.75 21:55, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Any Pics of an Orders build that worked? Angueo [[Image:AngueoSignature.jpg|19px]] 02:38, September 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * ok i uploaded a picture with minor changes to monks. i think this would be better. aos+seed is good enufRipintheblue 19:35, September 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * nope i dont have any ss. heres the build: order of pain/blood bond/blood ritual/UA/GDW/some healing skills/res. both other monks also had GDW.Ripintheblue 19:35, September 13, 2010 (UTC)

here is a example of build im talking abaut. mindbender would ease the casting of stuff. also EE would be nice at orders.Ripintheblue 01:15, September 20, 2010 (UTC)

Better build
if you run this it'll be much more faster: 2 splitter wotas with Ebon escape for surviving and running faster while surviving. since there will be no UA there might be fails.

3 normal wotas. /with asura scan and save yourselves. and 2 monks

1 N/Mo with order of the vampire. this will increase the damage output a LOT and give them a great life steal effect.

all 3 non-wotas will get GDW. this will cause them to KD and extra damage. jagged strike will hit above 100. since there will be no UA, mo/p might get we shall return. ripintheblue 88.241.67.35 01:21, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * also, kd will get rid of blurred vision. this improves speed a lot.Ripintheblue 00:25, September 17, 2010 (UTC)

Yes Yes! And DWG team...maybe SF even nerfed..oh and 600! Guys this team is really good and you want to improve it to much don't you think? Remember..Leave well alone. ;] Matiasko 15:05, September 26, 2010 (UTC)

Great
I still think that this should be in the Great and Meta section of PvXWiki. More MTSC then DSC going on.. DSC is dead. Face it. IxlKennylxl 23:31, September 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Might be a great build, but it's still in Trial, so it doesn't need to be there yet. I haven't seen anyone doing it, and believe me, I've looked. I am so bloody sick of Drazach Thicket... They forming up in the varied Euro-districts again, or is it still pretty much strictly intra-guild? Targren 05:22, September 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Us in the HzH alliance only do MTSC. We form groups in the guild halls and leave from there. GL getting PUGs going for this if you idiots trying to run PvXWiki are forcing this to stay in the Trial Builds section. All I gotta say is, the HzH Alliance thanks you for keeping it on here as a way to distribute the builds throughout our alliance and good job keeping the other alliances down. We wanted to post this one PvX to help the other alliances as well but no one else seems to really care. IxlKennylxl 20:21, September 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * If there are no PUGs for it and you're the only ones running it, it's not Meta, and if no one else can run it, it won't be rated "great." That's too bad, since I thought it looked interesting, but thems the breaks. Frothing on a discussion page won't accomplish anything either way. Persecution complex much?  Targren 23:08, September 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Let's face it: PvE Meta = Whatever's on PvX. If you can't find a team for a team build, there's only 3 reason: 1) Your Guild doesn't want to run it, 2) Your friends don't want to run it, 3) PvX didn't Vet it.  You can't find a group because this is in trial, and this is in trial because you can't find a group.  Welcome to limbo. 66.183.63.246 06:12, September 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Nah, in HzH Alliance we have just about 24/7 groups for MTSC. I only want it to be Great and Meta on PvX to help the rest of the Kurzick Faction Community as well. Kurzick side has been lacking for the last few months since the HW/SF nerf. IxlKennylxl 20:20, September 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Um, you know you can move the build to testing and vote on it if you're done refining it right? Toraen TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png]] 21:52, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Reading through, I only see complaints about whether there are pugs, whethe HzH should add other non-ally to their groups, and whether people can actually change this build into testing (nice job Torean :P). Lets face the judgment, shall we? Shadow Form Slayer  [[Image:Shadow_Form~_Slayer.jpg|19px]] 05:59, September 17, 2010 (UTC)

Still, a quick note
Consumables shouldn't be needed in a FF. You ought to make builds that can do without, otherwise face inferiorness. I agree, an E/Mo should do the job way better then an other bonder. Just give one bonder SoH, and the EMO adds the rest (Protective bond instead of Life barrier+bond, add GoS for no cons need). You are settled, and better off Shadow Form Slayer  06:03, September 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * You don't NEED cons to do it, we just require it for our runs. It's still doable without. IxlKennylxl 03:14, September 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * i think you DO NEED cons to do it since the point is speed. it also helps bonders a lot. 88.251.233.110 00:13, September 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Cons help, yes, but you don't absolutely need them to complete the run. IxlKennylxl 11:23, September 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * You are so funny guys "DO NEED", "DON'T NEED" and people gets confused of your talking...All i want to say, yes you need cons if you want to call it Speed Clear coz of the SPEED you get from cons. Yes you can still do this without them but...so long and lame. And I don't rly get what's wrong with getting cons? Is it so expensive? You buy cons..each one in team pay you 1k so you only invest 1k in this but...omg omg...at the end of run you get 1k+ cash and you still can sell items and stuff. So yes, even you don't need...bring cons. Matiasko 14:42, September 26 2010 (UTC)

Where to meet
Im in HZH alliance. For the next few weeks try Unwaking Waters Euro France 1. I form groups there to help those who want to try. I suggest running A/D or UA builds for the first few runs. Look most weeknights from 22:30 to 01:30 UTC. Bring 1.1k ( 1k cons +100g blessing). I am looking for ppl who want to learn or try. pm me Kim of Sin in game. Kimofnagging 18:56, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

Improved Backline?
If using cons then surely these two Bonders could provide all the healing and bonding needed. This would give you room for either and extra A/D or A/W or some sort of orders/splinter weapon support role? perhaps with UA for quick res.

Overview

 * 1x / Prot Bonder


 * 1x / Smite Bonder

And Great Dwarf Weapon for increased Damage/Knockdown

Prot Bonder
[build prof=E/Mo ene=12+3+1 heal=3 prot=12][Aura of Restoration][Elemental Lord][Ether Renewal][Burning Speed][Infuse Health][Great Dwarf Weapon][Protective Bond][Life Bond][/build]

Usage

 * Cast Protective Bond and Life Bond on Sins.
 * Heal Using infuse health
 * Use Either Renewal/Burnig Speed to keep health and energy up

Smite Bonder
[build prof=E/Mo ene=12+3+1 heal=3 smi=12][Aura of Restoration][Elemental Lord][Ether Renewal][Burning Speed][Infuse Health][Great Dwarf Weapon][Strength of Honor][Balthazar's Spirit][/build]

Usage

 * Cast Strength of Honor and Balth Spirit on Sins
 * Heal Using infuse health
 * Use Either Renewal/Burnig Speed to keep health and energy up

Meta
Why isnt this? This is more commonly used than the current Kurzick FFF team build. No u 01:48, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, we ran this w/o the cautery signet monk with another crit sythe derv and did well. No u 01:59, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

TexMod
Is there any texmod which would show the routs of sins?-- God  Kamil  17:48, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
 * There is no such texmod yet, I searched for it, but I couldn't find anything :( -- InStars  14:36, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Time/District
At what hours of the day and in what district is the best place to farm this or get into a party? --96.240.34.47 19:19, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
 * You probably won't find ppl in any dis, you should join MTSC guild, I'm in EviL actually and we are making teams at gc/sc. -- God Focused Anger.jpg Kamil  14:56, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * ^wrong. Just go to german dis at 4pm GMT or later. Falrach 15:29, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * ups I'm bad. Should read abbreviations correctly. Falrach 15:33, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

W/D Build
Some IP was attempting to post this on the main page, thought I'd paste here in case people don't like trawling through history: [build prof=W/D str=11 scy=12 earthp=6][Counterattack][Power Attack][Farmer's Scythe][Zealous Sweep][Warrior's Endurance][Sand Shards]["I Am the Strongest!"]["I Am Unstoppable!"][/build] -- Chieftain   Alex  11:41, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Energy
How the fuck is that orders supposed to maintain energy without life bond or something? 70.138.19.126 18:39, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
 * AoS is your friend :) My alliance and MTSC teams use the Mo/N as standard in our build and never have any issues with energy problems. In our case, we run a variant of the Cautery build and an EMo bonder instead of a LB Monk. As the EMo is technically doing most of the healing, the Mo/N doesn't run out of energy by trying to heal everything. Bellatrixa 10:14, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

BUH
I understand why 1 BUH could be useful, but I am confused as to why the UA is also running BUH. Could someone explain that to me? --Ctheacc 13:00, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The icon you're looking at is Great Dwarf Weapon - not By Ural's Hammer. Increase in DPS, shit thats KD can't fight you. -- [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] Chieftain  Alex  22:34, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

WOC
Doable in conjunction with Cleansing Morostav Trail [Hard Mode]? There's 6 (the Stone Necromancer boss doesn't spawn) extra Afflicted bosses (read: 1500 extra faction per run), though the various plague explosions are going to be an enchantment stripping nightmare. Cosky 18:30, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
 * It's probably doable but it may cause problems if the enchant strip a lot. 109.145.176.201 18:53, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

USELESS?
nobody search for this team in unwalking waters 93.146.134.252 09:32, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Join a kurzick FFF guild/alliance (the ones holding HzH or Altrumm). Unlike MQSC, nobody pugs this. Cosky 14:40, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Thats because MQSC is very PUG-friendly, easy to learn from party members after a few practice runs, and the map-routes/build-splits are so straightforward that its noob-proof. --108.38.126.227 06:36, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

MoN
Has a lot more energy if you run this: [build prof=Mo/N div=10+1+3 heal=8+1 blo=12][Dwayna's Kiss][Order of Pain][Blessed Signet][Great Dwarf Weapon][Seed of Life][Blood Ritual][Essence Bond][Unyielding Aura][/build] Maintain Essence Bond on everybody, spam BS so that you can actually maintain OoP/GDW. Cosky 01:14, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Easier To Run Bars
x2/ WoTAs

x3 ?/ VoS

/ UA

/ Perma Seed

/ Bonder

By using MoP on the WoTAs you tear through mobs faster especially when the mainteam is present. Most groups ball up or can be balled up with minimal effort allowing quick disposal of enemies. This also allows WoTAs to have some more AoE in their bar without losing their high single-target DPS.

While using an Emo bonder, bonds are easily maintained and replaced if needed. The Infuse Health on the emo's bar also allows quick, high-powered heals that the current bonders are unable to manage. The Emo bonder is also more durable than the other bonders. If aggro reaches the backline, they have a slim chance of death.

The perma seed bar ensures that health stays up while the team is in combat while also supplying anti-condition support and SoH. The only downside to this bar is that SoH should only be maintained on 3 party members to ensure you have enough energy for spamming Seed. The Lack of damage is easily replaced by the WoTA's MoP. With the majority of damage being countered from the perma seed, the UA is a "just in case" position that can intervene if a party member needs heals. Because of this job having little to do it carries Technobabble for the Stone Reapers' Chilblains. Just cast it on them as they spawn, and have the melee beat on it to prevent Bond's from dropping. If needed, have the Perma Seed bring Technobabble as well.

As for Great Dwarf Weapon, you can have the VoS's bring it and maintain it on each other, or place it on the Perma Seed / UA. It isn't necessary for faster runs in my experiences. Thoughts?--XxvX 04:50, 9 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Wow these builds are so leet makes the run 10x faster than before and everyone's not dieing constantly :D I completely recommend this to anyone --Evil is my name 05:02, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Dervishes could have Twin Moon Sweep as a Selfheal, but now you miss life barrier. Emo could have GDW himself? instead of Life Bond, you can Spam Burning Speed. Sjan [[File:Rsz 160px-dervish-tango-icon-200.png]] 07:15, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Twin Moon Sweep would require a Derv enchant to be stripped. Life Barrier only reduces damage by half, where as Prot Bond caps the maximum damage able to be taken. Life Bond reduces the already capped damage by half when taking damage from an attack. It also fuels Seed of Life, and gives the emo energy when an enchanted ally is struck by an attack — not worth it for a GDW. --XxvX 16:30, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Not true, true true true. TMS is in some cases better then eremite's and i think Heart of Fury doesn't help much. 82.161.39.143 16:46, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * That I can agree with...but my bars didn't contain those skills. In my opinion the dervs should be running the same bar as the any/D's seeing as there is no benefit to running the current Derv bar unless EVERYTHING is balled up perfectly.--XxvX 17:17, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Better Backline
Somewhat similar to the post above. Slightly harder than his, but still easier than the normal bars and more effective than either.

/ Orders

Maintain OotV with your signet to give continuous damage boost as well as self-heals. Maintain GDW on 3/4 players. Spam Mystic Healing if needed. Interrupt chilblains with "You Move Like a Dwarf!" Use Ebon Escape and Dwayna's Touch for a quick-heal. Blood Rit wasn't really even needed, but is useful "just in case." Works well with ebon escape, too.

/ Perma-Seed

Maintain Serpent's Quickness with Dwarven Stability. Spam Seed of Life on the bonder. Don't bother maintaining UA - just use it to res if needed. Stay with the bonder. (PS: You want Serpent's to last at least 36 seconds. Do the math.)

/ Bonder

Use Prot Bond THEN Life Bond on the damage dealers and the orders necro. Balth's on yourself. Stay away from battle. No need for you to be close. You and the perma-seed should never be in aggro range.

The only bar of the 3 that isn't mind-numbingly simple is the orders necro. And you'd have to try pretty hard to screw it up. With orders being up 24/7 and GDW spammed on recharge, your team's damage output skyrockets. No changes to the frontliners is needed - run whatever you think is best. Overall survivability goes up, since the only characters without bonds don't have to be anywhere near the fight. OotV and perma-seed keeps everyone topped off, even against those annoying blood drinkers. Any other heals are barely used. --Atanna Charta 04:22, 11 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I think that we can all agree that an E/Mo bonder is far more effective than the Mo/P. The suggestion has been made several times...Can we vote to change it? I wouldn't take infuse off the Emo bar though, but other than that your bars LOOK good...but I haven't gotten a chance to test them...--XxvX 02:39, 13 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Drop Elemental Lord for GDW imo, unless your energy really plummets you should be able to throw a couple around now and then. Cosky 18:12, 13 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Tested them with my ally, i think they work much better than the monks with their blessed signet. Sjan [[File:Rsz 160px-dervish-tango-icon-200.png]] 18:16, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

You have my vote for these to be mainbarred, and leave GDW as optional i guess. They work faster and easier for the monks. monk* :). Sjan   21:43, 13 August 2011 (UTC)


 * So I was playing around with your perma seed bar and comparing it to mine and here are the results:
 * You're Bar:
 * Duration of Seed = 8.22 seconds (16 Divine Favor + enchanting weapon on target)
 * Recharge of Seed = 10.72 seconds (With BU + Serpent's quickness)
 * Downtime of Seed = 2.5 seconds
 * Recharge of Blessed Signet = 5.36 seconds
 * My Bar:
 * Duration of Seed = 8.22 seconds (16 Divine Favor + enchanting weapon on target)
 * Recharge of GoR = 8 seconds + .75 aftercast + .25 cast time of seed = 9 seconds
 * Downtime of seed : 0.78 seconds.
 * Recharge of Blessed Signet = 8 seconds
 * Both bars are excellent and perform far better than the current bars; They are simply variants. (Yes, I did just take up all that space to say that.) Your bar has better energy management, thus making it easier to run. However, the bar does have a longer downtime that you do not seem to have the heals for in your suggested bars. Perhaps re-modify the OotV to have less touch-range heals? With no Infuse or other direct heals that aren't touch range, your melee drops like flies while under pressure (because not all damage triggers seed).--XxvX 04:04, 14 August 2011 (UTC)


 * The second bar has more damage because of OotV and can ymlad stone reaper's Chillbains. The Touch skills work fine, with EE and it's nice to spam more.
 * OotV should keep you healed up for the relatively small downtime of seed. The only time this isn't enough are the extremely large pulls and the enemies are focusing on a single person. Easily countered with some smart play: You can time the seed so it's up when you finish the pull, and most of the enemies are dead by the time it wears off. If you used seed early, the 3 GDW weapons you're maintaining on the dervs will do a wonderful job of dropping the incoming DPS, and the combo of EE and Dwayna's touch is effectively 250 health in 3/4 sec. It's easiest if your seed just uses his brain 3 times a run and times the spell at the big pulls. XD
 * Although I wonder if you could maintain 5 SoH and still manage the glyph seed, if you don't worry about those other smite skills? You'd have to use a slow-res, though - worth a test I suppose. But then the monk would need like.... another half percent of a brain! --Atanna Charta 18:09, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
 * After testing it out, a GoR monk will have just barely enough energy to keep the 5 SoHs and continue seeding, but he was cutting it really close, and slowed the group down once or twice to get energy back. --Atanna Charta 22:34, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I did state the Mo/R has better energy management...And I would NEVER trust the Mo/E bar to new monk; the bar isn't about using all skills on recharge as much as it is knowing how to conserve energy. I also had an Mo/N in my MTSC runs recently bring OotV and that alone was excellent healing (so long as the melee had the common sense to keep attacking). I feel confident that so long as the emo has Infuse (as a back up heal) that even the stupidest of players can run this SC more effectively. So...can we vote to change this to mainbar...because I'm getting sick of the Mo/P's lol--XxvX 17:55, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
 * The N/D could Blood Ritual on the Mo/R or Mo/E. <font color="##157DEC">Sjan [[File:Rsz 160px-dervish-tango-icon-200.png]] 20:12, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Sweet! Someone put my bars on the main page. I added usage and variants. Although I don't really agree with the statement they're harder to run... I guess that's up to others to decide - I've always been a bad judge of how difficult something is for the average player. If it really is too difficult to run, I propose that it's changed so that the Mo/R and E/Mo are always there, since they really are easier bars. Instead of the "Fast" N/D, there could be a variant with an "Easy" Mo/N. Perhaps running something along these lines? / Healer

It's basically the same as the old Mo/N, just with Healer's Boon instead of Unyielding Aura.--Atanna Charta 23:00, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I added this builds, because they are good and can give me a lot, Im tired of running stupid monks, very often first timers, maybe now Ill find someone, with who Ill make 15 min run, because its only possible with vt and guild running atm. And ppl are too lazy to do that, so that's why I added it :P On the other hand, Ill also add the Mo/E perma seed from the old trenchway :) And I wanted to say that HB mon is pointless imo, Mon is for dmg support, not the healing, in most of places healing isnt needed, OotV gives a lot of hp, Seed gives hp, UA is only for hard rez, with exped ppl UA and any rez isn't needed. -- God Focused Anger.jpg Kamil  21:28, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

1. Archive discussion page please, 2. Can't call it any rating yet
Sorry, but read the regulations on build vetting and rating. This build is strong but it has a lot of room for improvement on effectiveness and ease of use. Using the variants here in the discussion page, EViL was able to complete a full clear in 13 minutes. This isn't vandalism, just policy. Innoruuk 00:21, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, I will happily change my votes to 5s when this build reaches its peak setup. But there are a lot of good ideas in here :) Innoruuk 00:24, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
 * It currently has a rating because it had one on wikia. They couldn't send us the vote database (wouldn't probably) so we had no votes on anything after the move. We left any build that was vetted on wikia at the time of the split with it's rating until it reaches 5 votes again. Then it can be changed. --  Toraen   talk  01:22, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Either way I think we should post the variants here in discussion as mainbars. Especially the last ones are more pug-friendly and are more effective overall, but since the community clearly hates when I get my hands into things I'll let the creators do it :P. At least, I hope they do. Innoruuk 17:27, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Which admin said you could change it back to good? I don't see any such comment from an admin on this talk or yours. Also, you're free to edit the build to better bars. The original creator of the build has no more say than you do. Especially now that it's vetted and needs to be kept accurate. --  Toraen   talk  23:32, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Im going to make this page look better like I did with MQSC page, Ill add everything what was added preavious on this talk page, it is emos, perma seeders and other things. I only need a bit of time :) -- God Focused Anger.jpg Kamil  14:55, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Ok, I finished everything, what I wanted to add. GL in mtsc! -- God  Kamil  21:48, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Fast Backline rapes :P
In last days I made few runs (finally i found ppl which wanted to make this, I mean PUGs) and we made many runs, its easy, fast and really much safer - healing and dmg from OotV, infuser and we played mop wota, great dmg. Im tring to make this build popular, many ppl said they will also do, and I can reccomend it to everyone. GL & HF with that :)-- God  Kamil  21:09, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Understudy bars for other classes
After a few experiments I've come up with some builds that can be used in place of existing roles that may be difficult to find and some that simply improve on inefficiencies in the current bars. I've focused on alternative dagger builds and the backline because I find that most groups don't focus on balling every pull and daggers do better against solo targets.

WotA alternates:

/ Spirit's Strength Knife

Put Daggers to 10, Channeling to 10, and the rest in Spawning Power. Keep Spirit's Strength up and cast Weapon of Aggression when attacking. Use Golden Lotus preferentially over Jagged Strike whenever it's recharged to manage energy. Optional: replace Jagged Strike with Splinter Weapon for huge damage on balled pulls, precast it on yourself and other frontliners before joining the attack.

/ Scavenger's Knife

Similar to the Way of the Empty Palm any/A bar, but with fewer aftercast delays to slow down your running and fighting. Put Daggers to 12, Expertise to 8 and the rest of the leftover points into Wilderness Survival. Use Scavenger's Focus to reap energy from bleeding targets. Optional: drop Golden Phoenix for Lightning Reflexes to gain an IAS and a blocking skill during large pulls, wear Expertise headwear and shift points from WS to increase its length.

/ Endurance Knife

Split points between Strength and Daggers and keep Endurance up to manage energy. Optional: drop Strongest for "Save Yourselves!" for a more defensive-oriented build.

/ Zealous Knife

Split points between Daggers and Wind Prayers (and Mysticism if extra armor is desired). Cast Vow before attacking.

/ Loud Knife

Use Furious dagger mods, 10 Daggers, 8 Command, 8 Motivation, and 10 Leadership. Use adrenaline to spam shouts to maintain Refrain, keep energy up, and improve the damage of yourself and teammates. Drop Jagged Strike for Golden Lotus Strike if you have trouble maintaining energy. Optional: drop Go for the Eyes! and add Lyric of Zeal to help bonder monks, move points out of Command and into Daggers and Motivation. Or drop Power for Cautery Signet and shift points out of Motivation.

/ Elemental Knife

Put 11 points in Daggers, 10 in EStorage, and 10 in your element of choice; match the dagger tang to the selected element. Use Ether Prism for energy or for damage reduction if pulling a ball. Optional: replace Ether Prism with Ether Renewal and spam Asuran Scan or other spells for energy.
 * For optional 1, bring either Golden Phoenix Strike or a spell from your chosen element with a useful or damaging effect, such as Whirlwind, Gale, or Flame/Frozen Burst.
 * For optional 2, bring the Conjure spell of the appropriate element.

Backline alternates:

/ Shadow Orders - replaces MoN or ND

Bring an enchanting weapon and a Resto headpiece. Put 11 in Resto Magic, 10 in Channeling, 10 in Blood. Focus on casting Splinter Weapon before frontliners engage and Orders after fighting starts. Use PwK for party heals but drop it immediately to avoid hiding your enchanting weapon/energy. Use Weapon of Shadow as your "seed" on anyone taking damage from martial attackers, especially during the large pulls. Optional: Drop Mending Grip for Breath of the Great Dwarf to add more party-wide heals.

/ Arcane Orders - replaces MoN or ND

Bring 8 Mysticism, 12 Wind Prayers, 10 Blood Magic, wear +4 Mysticism headpiece. Maintain Faithful Intervention and Signet, cast Arcane Zeal when fighting starts and alternate Orders and GDW, use Mystic Healing when needed. For optional slot, bring Eremite's Zeal or Eternal Aura for additional energy or Extend Enchantments to lengthen Arcane Zeal, or bring another heal.

/ Echo Bonder - replaces MoP

Use same attributes/equipment as standard MoP. Use Echo to copy Strength of Honor to raise bonds on multiple targets faster, use Echo on Blessed Signet to recover energy quickly after bonding or long runs, or to maintain extra Life Bonds on the backline. Use Echo on Seed of Life during the large pulls to reduce risk of group deaths. Use Dismiss Condition as a 100-HP heal on frontline or on any monks that ping Cripple. For optional slot, add hard res or hex removal.

/ Mantra Bonder - replaces EMo

Bring 11 Inspiration Magic, 10 Protection Prayers, and 10 Divine Favor. Use Prot headpiece for initial bonding and Favor headpiece for the run. Maintain Mantra and use Blessed Signet for energy. Use Ether Signet if energy dips or to quickly recover to working levels after long runs. Use Dismiss Condition as a heal or to remove Cripple. Bring scrolls for emergency res. Optional: drop Seed for a hard res.

/ Signet Bonder - replaces MoP

Split points between Illusion Magic and Fast Casting. Use Illusion headpiece during initial bonding and FC headpiece during the run. Use Signet of Illusion before every 3 spells during bonding and maintain it throughout the run. Maintain Symbolic Celerity and use Blessed Signet for energy. Use Ether Signet to recover energy after long runs or intermittently to maintain Life Bonds on the backline. Cast Dismiss for a 50-HP heal or to remove cripple from backliners. Bring scrolls for emergency res. Optional: remove Dismiss or Ether Signet and bring Healing Seed for the large pulls.

/ Celery Bonder - replaces EMo

Bring 12 Fast Casting and 12 Protection Prayers, use FC headpiece. Maintain Celerity and use Blessed Signet for energy. Use Ether Signet if energy dips or after long runs. Use Spirit Bond for heals and Dismiss for condition removal.

I hope you'll find these useful for expanding your role options and alleviating sameness. Alhazad Symphony 05:11, 18 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Only ones acceptable are on the page. None of these are effective. We've tried them. thank you! Aludeni (talk) 10:43, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Reworked
This needs to be written up again. I'm in TBD at the moment, so I'll be more than happy to. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]   16:07, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
 * If you know which bars are run as a staple, keep those ones on the main page, and perhaps put all the shitty variant bars somewhere else. [like a bin.. ] [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain  <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  17:11, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
 * TBD is a great guild. Have a friend over in that one. I was in the EcTo Guild of that Alliance. I know that a few use their own version of the dervish build and there's a few varients to the wota build. Most to all do the 3 monk backline, instead of the fast. However, the fast backline is still done. I'd join those mtscs again, but working on maxing balth and then Luxon. I'm in the Cavalon alliance and unlike the mtsc, the mqsc do pugs and is a "lot" faster. I did the wota build several times, even solo tanked Arbor twice as Fierce. :-) I did all 3 of the monk backlines as Blue Icey at variety of times and even the mo/r for a team for the fast backline - for some friends. Also, if you plan to write it up again. Here's a message - less is more. Ryan, Jack, and Kal are the 3 main best (sides another one or two) at knowing how the mtsc is run in that alliance. :-) They've done it more and longer and I'm happy to have learned from them and maxed my title. 72.148.31.114 19:12, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Lol, Kal taught me split. He has a great system. I'm already pretty good. Just need to memorize all the pop ups. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 19:19, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Yep, he's fast at split too. ;-) Ah, pretty easy though at that first split - wait for the blood guys. Then when the split team are on one side and the regular are on the other, wait for the regular at the end and hit the reapers there. There's a reaper right before the big bunches of dredge. I know i'm out of order, but remembering them when I can. ^.^ And there are the wardens at the loop and at the end. I'd be happy to help you all out anytime, can you pm me here (e-mail me) Kal's ign? I can't remember it right off the top of my head. Tx! Ariyen 02:46, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Meta Tag
No clue whether it's warranted, but given "This will be updated soon!" is there for years now I have doubts that this is actually a current meta build. --Krschkr (talk) 13:57, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
 * It's not, but the other build(s) aren't on PvX. I'm not sure what other allies are running these days, and I don't know if anyone even does occasional MTSCs rather than just botting. The only other known build is the one on the SC wiki, and I don't really know who runs that outside of faction week. Jotegr (talk) 20:58, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
 * [Nite] ally runs MTSC on every double week. Generally has multiple parties going at the same time. The builds+tactics are on their discord. Easy 10m runs with moderately experienced players without the tripway excessiveness. No one posts builds on this website anymore.--X XV X (talk) 04:59, 23 May 2021 (UTC)