User talk:Sonofthort/Team - 7 Hero Bip SFway

I've been playing around with this concept of creating a "modernized" eleway team build. I've noted what I perceive to be issues with the existing team builds in the description. There's a lot of adjustment which can be done here, but the main idea is to use BiP, Teinai's Wind, and SF (because hero's don't use Rodgort's very well in my experience). Some potential areas of improvement:

- Not sure if I need 3 ele heroes, maybe add one more mesmer. Seems faster with 3 ele's though.

- Unsure about the IV bar, not sure if IV is the best option. Cracked armor has good synergy though.

- Unsure about the current mesmer bar I have. Really going for spike, so choose domination over illusion.

- I find minions to be too slow for this in general, but they can help survivability. Maybe just use this team when you know the aoe spike method will work.

- The 3rd ele probably doesn't need Hex Eater Signet.

- I've found that I don't want to clutter the Ele's bar. We really want them spamming SF as their main job. Other skills tend to prevent them from doing that.

Let me know if you have any ideas. Sonofthort (talk)
 * I'd say: If this proves to be faster and more stable than either of the old elementalist based teams, update the old SFway and archive the dual EA team. We shouldn't clutter the team builds section more than necessary, as there already are plenty of similar (and some outdated) teams to take care of. As you haven't yet done much of the writing for the page it might be an option to move this to a user subpage of yours until the bars are polished and the old page can be updated?


 * Tried 2 of these + 1x SF + 1x SF player? Might be good and requires less team changes against foes immune to burning. Air magic's armor penetration is nice, more random rupts should be good and one weaken armor will hardly be enough to crack the foes' armor. This would also make a fevered dreams hero more attractive again. --Krschkr (talk) 23:00, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
 * That's a good idea, I'll play around with this. I've been running Invoke Lightning as the player build, with shell shock, so I definitely agree with more cracked armor and the potential of air magic. I'll have to think about merging/archiving the existing builds. Archiving Dual Elementalist seems fine imo. The existing SFway might be too different from this build now that I think about it, most of the votes talk about the Fevered Dreams synergy, seems like a core concept. I have to do more testing/comparison between the two. Sonofthort (talk)
 * I don't know what you are trying to achieve with this team, but ill say my thoughts. Its inferior in every way compared to 3 mesmers, so I don't see a point in running this. If you somehow find it more fun that your heroes use fire spells instead of chaos spells then okay I guess... SF is bad compared to other options. For eles Invoke / Thunderclap are the way to go, and if you insist on running fire eles then SF is not even the best option. Heroes dont spam this as often as you'd like, which is the entire point of running SF. I tested SF a bit, even with 2 SF heroes they didnt even come close to what an EA Fire hero could do. ZStepmother (talk) 12:48, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Well, I appreciate the honestly. I think in certain areas (HM included), but obviously NM especially, ele's can tear through things faster than mesmers. You do sacrifice shutdown/defense a bit though. This isn't supposed to be a super universal build you can use anywhere, you'd use this when you know you can get away with it, and when you know it will help speed things up. I'll have to play around with EA again, I seem to remember having troubles with it. Several air ele's as opposed to fire ele's seems to miss the mark on nuking big clumps though. I'm really just trying to find a super fast nuke spike team build, as I've noted, it should be so fast that minions would slow it down, so maybe this is geared towards more of a niche play style. I noted that ele's can be faster than mesmers which is the idea of this build, but do you have a link to a mesmer based nuke/spike team I could try (lacking minions)? Sonofthort (talk)
 * You'll find that mesmers are better for most of the game, and the eles only shine at really low level areas. For the EAs, the only problem they have is when their ench gets removed (and someone noted that they dont seem to cast EA in combat, so bip is required), so they are weaker at areas with heavy ench removal. If you want a team without a MM: try bip support but with a pod necro instead of the MM (or IV or discord I guess, as pod is quite weak) or an air ele if you think you can get away with 1 healer. Or just another mesmer if you have mercs obviously. ZStepmother (talk) 08:52, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
 * We can go ahead and delete this page, I can make it a user page sometime if I want to, still needs a lot of work. Thanks for your feedback. Sonofthort (talk)
 * Do you have backups of this so I can delete it? Or would you rather have it moved to a subpage (suggest a name, or simply move the page yourself without leaving a redirect) to preserve this talk page's content? --Krschkr (talk) 22:04, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Tried to move to user page, didn't work how I expected. Looks like its just under "User:" instead of my username. Any ideas? Sonofthort (talk)
 * Add a Sonofthort/ before the build name. ;) --Krschkr (talk) 22:28, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Ahh, right... thanks! Sonofthort (talk)
 * (reset indent) Here are my two cents: I disagree that Mesmers are better damage dealers than SF eles, in general. I usually don't like to argue about the most effective "general use" build, because there are so many different enemies throughout the game. It might inform you to look at my user page, and look at the work I did on trying to find the fastest 7 Hero Deep team - I started by having 6 SF eles and 1 healer, and they spiked hard, and fast; but one wrong move and the team wiped. It is a fact that, if spammed, Searing Flames does much more damage than Energy Surge. But it is important to design the bars properly, so that the hero is spamming Searing Flames, rather than using utility skills - this is where most Searing Flames hero builds fail. The idea behind an effective hero SF bar is this: you want to have Searing Flames, and fill the rest of the bar with skills that either have zero cast time, give the hero more energy, or have a powerful effect with a very long recharge, to ensure that the hero is spending most of her or his time spamming SF. If you start filling up the bar with skills like Liquid Flame and Fireball, for the time the the hero is casting those skills, she or he is not either applying burning so that she or he can do more damage, or she or he is not doing damage to targets that are already burning. Basically, heroes are dumb, as we already know, so you have to make the bar very simple and dissimilar from other bars which have a balance between damage, utility, and energy management, so that the hero can spam SF. Take a look at the 6 Hero Burning Campaign Runner team composition. The SF ele bar on that page is an exemplary hero SF bar. 4 of the skills are for energy management, and there is backup energy management if enchantments are stripped. There's a powerful single-target damage skill for foes that are not balled up, after the main ball has been spiked down - the hero should prioritize to use SF on a ball of foes, instead of Immolate on the straggler - in other words, having Immolate there should not affect SF being spammed. And the two utility skills on there are low- and medium- energy skills with no cast time - again, having minimal impact on the spamming of SF.
 * I said it before somewhere here on this wiki, the DPS of SF is simply higher than Esurge, no matter how you spin it - it has a 2 second recharge, compared to the 7.5 second recharge (adjusted for Fast Casting) of Esurge, for similar damage. As it turns out, Searing Flames performs beautifully in NM and in HM, even though targets have higher armor in HM. My main beef is that the main damage dealers in the metagame are mostly Mesmers, which are designed to pressure and interrupt, not deal damage. That hunch I have is what is behind the way I have designed some of the builds and comps I have put up here.--Saxazaxx (talk) 22:59, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't know why I still go out and test if eles compare to mesmers, but because of your statement I did some testing. I took 2 SF eles (cause my third ele is equiped for air), both with the burning campaign runner bar, but without the shouts (so they had 6 skills, 16 fire magic and 13 energy storage). As expected, the SF heroes prove themself worse than my mesmers. Mesmers deal more damage while also controlling the battlefield. Im really confused how you came to the conclussion that SF eles can compete with mesmers. If you want a quick spike, take 6 mesmers and your spike will be both faster and safer. ZStepmother (talk) 10:40, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Here's my thinking. Let's say SF is being spammed on recharge, not taking into account casting times for Glowing Gaze and Glyph of Lesser Energy. At 14 Fire Magic on a 60 AL target, SF will apply 7 seconds of burning the first time it's cast, and 94 damage the second and third time its cast, for a total of 188 damage (from SF) + 98 damage (from burning) = 286 damage over 7 seconds, if casted 3 times. Compared to Esurge (81 damage every 7 seconds at X Fast Casting), that's more than triple the damage (not forgetting that we're dealing with 60 AL targets here). Now, of course, in HM, targets have higher AL in general, which reduces the damage somewhat, but even if the direct damage from SF was halved, not counting the armor-ignoring burning damage, we would still have 192 damage over 7 seconds, compared to 81 damage.
 * Of course, the fact that your results showed poorer performance with the Eles, compared to the Esurge Mesmers, shows that your eles were not spamming SF, even though their bars were free to do so, or they were not spamming SF on appropriate targets enough. It is a fact that SF is much more conditional than Esurge, which does make it more difficult for heroes to use. This is why I put a source of burning, Avatar of Balthazar + 4 teardown enchantments, on both the Derv heroes, to keep my Ele pumping SF. In Guild Wars, the details can make or break your team. It would be good if you could record your test, so that we can analyze what went wrong. Maybe the lack of the two shout skills on both bars compromised the overall team's defense enough that it made the monks' jobs that much harder to heal, which caused a domino effect, where maybe the heroes were kiting more because they had lower health... that's just speculation - but recording would help us figure out what went wrong. I just know that when I took 6 SF Eles in the Deep, they spiked balls down fast.--Saxazaxx (talk) 16:50, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
 * In your calculation you're entirely forgetting that the mesmer hero does have more than one damage skill, in contrast to the searing flames elementalist. This means the mesmer will not only deal 99 (not 81) damage from energy surge to nearby targers, but can add 106 to nearby targets from mistrust, 79 to in the area with cry of frustration and has 79 single target + 53 AoE from unnatural signet to adjacent aswell. Just using these 4 skills in the first seconds of a fight means dealing 284 armor ignoring AoE damage to foes nearby the target (SF's range) +79 to targets in the area + additional 53 to adjacent targets + additional 79 to the main target. In an actual fight most about the SF builds will only lower their damage output, making them drop in effectivity where mesmers stay as powerful as they are: Using pure energy management skills, armor levels, condition removal, natural resistance or even burning immunity. --Krschkr (talk) 17:18, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Of course my tests showed poor results for the SF heroes. I put some thought into it and then I can easily come to the conclussion that they are bad. You seem to focus on SF vs ESurge, but as Krschkr said, you have to look at the entire mesmer bar. The SF bar, according to you, is entirely focussed on spamming SF, and therefore we have to compared the entire mesmer bar to the SF bar.
 * So presumably my eles weren't spamming SF on the right targets? It has nearby range, so unless they are spread out really far this is very unlikely.
 * There were not enough mobs, so effectiveness is not as big? More mobs will only benefit the mesmer, as he deals more damage
 * So then the problem must be that Im not running 2 dervish heroes (as if that alone isn't a reason that this team is inferior to mesmers). I already took a second Sf hero cause they have natural synergy, 1 more source of burning is not going to change anything. 2 SFs is enough to keep the enemies on fire.
 * So maybe the problem is the lack of shouts? I would not call it a test if my team is dieing all the time. I removed them because I can, and now they only use their energy for damage.
 * The fault lies with the rest of the team? Are you really trying to tell me a team with 2 dervishes and SF eles has less trouble surviving than a team with real heroes? I use N/rits for healing, cause they are simply the best yuo can take. Nobody in my team died, the SF eles could freely cast.
 * I dont have to provide videos, Im not the person claiming ridiculous things.
 * I don't know what your definition of fast is, but let me tell you that anything the ele can do, the mesmer does better, faster and safer. ZStepmother (talk) 20:04, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
 * In response to both of you, my only contention is that SF can do more damage over time for a sustained period than a Mesmer can. Krschkr brought up that it's not just Esurge that's doing the damage, it's also Mistrust, Cry of Frustraction, and Unnatural Signet, which can provide a burst of damage at the beginning of a fight, while staving off some enemy spells simultaneously. However, the SF ele, when SF is properly spammed and energy is managed properly, has the potential to do more damage even than those 4 AoE Mesmer spells. Before I do a calculation, though, I want to make it clear that I am becoming less and less interested in finagling the mechanics of hero AI, because of a detail I noticed in testing today. I noticed that the Ele hero will recast Fire Attunement and Aura of Restoration before they end. This detail made me think about the reality of game development costing money, and it made me think about how Anet would have made sure that the hero/hench AI got that detail right, because Attunements are used by virtually every Ele. However, since Anet has moved on from the game, updates like this are now impossible, and bugs that will never be ironed out will continue to stunt gameplay. We have always known that heroes are dumb. The one virtue of a 7 hero team is that it allows us to test comps without having to assemble real players, and without assuming that real players can use the builds efficiently--heroes play at the same level of competency every time, and can even do things that payers cannot, like judge what kind of skills can enemy has, or rupt a skill perfectly by analyzing the incoming damage "packet," similar to PvP rupt botters.
 * But heroes are also very dumb in many respects, and they will always be dumb because they will not receive any more updates. So, that leaves really the really interesting build composition, in my opinion, in the hands of real players and player team comps. We have been spending a lot of time designing "general use" builds, but it is important that we do not lose sight of the goal that these builds are fulfilling--solo mission running and vanquishing.
 * So, in the end, it really doesn't matter that SF might have the potential to do more sustained DPS over the course of an hour than a Dom Mesmer build--heroes are dumb, and their "artifical unintelligence" creates a ceiling for their abilities, for their damage output, etc. I'm not sure what application the factoid that SF has higher sustained DPS than Mesmer might be: the tried-and-true method of balling and spiking in speed clears removes the problem of recharge times of the Mesmer skills--the ball is dead and the team moves on while waiting for recharges. I think the only real application would be for a real player to bring the bar in general PvE so that he or she can properly manage energy and properly spam SF. By the way, a few sources of cracked armor could make the build comparably viable in HM. But that would require a revamp of the team's composition.

Skill bars:

Side note: heroes' DPS can really get hamstringed by bringing Glowing Gaze - they cast it even when above 75% energy.

Note: Unnatural Signet does damage to adjacent targets; Cry of Frustration damages "in the area;" Esurge and Mistrust target nearby – this doesn't lead to the best results, it leads to this. It doesn't matter that heroes use skills inoptimally if they're still most effective with these skills than with skills that can't be used wrong. Everything about mesmer skills and attributes pushes us towards stacking mesmers to increase effectivity. Doing comparison runs with eles vs. mesmers will show you exactly that. But please run proper superior attribute rune setups on your mesmers, it's beneficial in almost every way. --Krschkr (talk) 11:27, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Notwithstanding the casting times for energy management skills: At 14 Fire Magic, if SF could be spammed on recharge 15 times:
 * 1st cast: 0 dmg (applies 7 seconds of burning)
 * 2nd cast: 94 dmg
 * 3rd cast: 94 dmg
 * Elapsed time: 6s (recharges) + 2.25s (aftercast) + 3s (casting time) = 11.25s
 * Total damage to 1 target (60 AL): 188 (SF direct damage) + 98 (burning damage) = 286 damage
 * Let's repeat this five times. Total damage is 1,340 over 56.25 seconds.
 * Note: this is assuming that SF is the only source of burning. If all 15 casts hit targets that are already burning, total damage will be 1,410 + X (number of seconds of burning that were applied from SF and not other sources)
 * Mesmer bar: 14 Dom, 11 Fast Cast, 9 Inspiration: recharge times for spells are reduced by 44% and cast times for spells and signets are reduced by 44%:
 * 1st cast: Esurge: 81 damage (99 damage would be at 15 or 16 Dom)
 * 2nd cast: Mistrust: 94 damage
 * 3rd cast: Unnatural Signet: 47 damage (71 damage is done to main target, but we are concerned with the AoE here)
 * 4th cast: Cry of Frustration: 71 damage
 * 5th cast: Shatter Hex: 114 damage
 * Total damage: 407
 * Elapsed time: Esurge: 2 sec cast * 44% = .88s + .75s aftercast = 1.63s total cast time
 * Mistrust: 1.63s total cast time
 * Unnatural Signet: 1.19s total cast time
 * Cry of Frustration: .85s total cast time
 * Shatter Hex: 1.19s total cast time
 * = 6.49s (assuming all skills are cast, one after the other, and the conditions are met)
 * Recharge times: Esurge (15 * .44) 6.6s + Mistrust (12 * .44) 5.28s + Unnatural Signet 10s + Cry of Frustration (15 * .44) 6.6s + Shatter Hex (10 * .44) 4.4s
 * = 32.88seconds of recharge
 * Analysis: 407 damage can be done over a period of 6.49 seconds, but 32.88 seconds of recharge are shared between all skills used. It is difficult or impossible to analyze exactly how much damage would be done in a real scenario, because each skill has a different cast time, requires different conditions to be met, like skills being rupted or ally party members to be adjacent to foes for Shatter Hex to trigger, and has its own particular challenges associated with hero AI. I appreciate what Krschkr brought to the table, the analysis that a lot of damage, as well as some spell prevention, can be done at the beginning of a fight by Mesmers, that an Ele simply cannot do, even if ideal conditions were met. However, if we step back a bit, the Mesmer's skills, while they do deal armor-ignoring damage, have their own set of conditions that must be met in order to do damage, just like Searing Flames: spells must be interrupted, targets must be enchanted or hexed, targets must have enough energy, or allies must be hexed and standing adjacent to targets (Shatter Hex). In my opinion, a team composition could be made with sufficient sources of additional burning, cracked armor, and maybe even adding in condition extension or Stolen Speed - that would have a large effect for SF, a lot more than it would for the already-decreased casting times from Mesmers' Fast Casting.
 * Like I said, I'm becoming less interested in dumb hero AI that will never improve or have bugs ironed out. I think, in general, it's important to keep in mind that with dumb hero AI, fewer conditions needing to be met should result in more damage, even though heroes can spot conditions automatically in ways that players cannot.--Saxazaxx (talk) 05:40, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
 * " My main beef is that the main damage dealers in the metagame are mostly Mesmers, which are designed to pressure and interrupt, not deal damage. "
 * "my only contention is that SF can do more damage over time for a sustained period than a Mesmer can"
 * "By the way, a few sources of cracked armor could make the build comparably viable in HM"
 * "but it is important that we do not lose sight of the goal that these builds are fulfilling"
 * You are so dead set on trying to find a way were eles outdo mesmers, to me it seems like the only person that's losing sight of all this is you. At first it was like, "eles are better at dealing damage, my 6 ele teams spikes hard and fast" and now it's more "in theory it works, if your fight takes 2 minutes". This all makes me think that you purely look at the numbers, and didn't go out and test or didn't even think of a real scenario.
 * Who would've thought that heroes don't use their bars optimally? Of course this all matters, that's exactly what we are doing: finding the best hero builds there are. If you only would've done a few tests you would've noticed that mesmers clean up fights faster and safer, and that's what it is all about. That's a real scenario, not some "see my build does 300dps on master of damage and therefore it is the best build there is" scenario. Nope, let's blame ANet for not making perfect AI (hint: even then the mesmers will outperform by a mile).
 * Why do you keep trying to get points across that are not even relevant in a real scenario? The entire calculation thingie is flawed. Heroes don't spam their skills as players would, which only benefits the mesmer more. Calculating without the right attributes (16 dom, 11 FC, 8 inspi is the way to go, there is 0, ZERO reason not to run 16 dom) is making it biased for the ele. You don't count weapon sets, the 36% HSR benefits the mesmer A LOT. Why does it even matter how much damage SF pumps out in 56 seconds? Fights don't last that long anyway, we are looking for builds that are the most effective in a real scenario, not builds that are meant for fighting groups of 50 mobs with 1 million hp each.
 * The conditions for the mesmers spells are easily met. That's not an issue at all. You know which build DOES have a lot of issues? The SF hero. Non optimal spell usage, high energy cost, dependancy on enchants, have to deal with armor (even with cracked armor you are losing out on a lot of damage), burning immunity.
 * Conclussion: Mesmers are the best, don't bother with trying to prove otherwise because you won't find your proof. ZStepmother (talk) 10:34, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
 * "I think, in general, it's important to keep in mind that with dumb hero AI, fewer conditions needing to be met should result in more damage, even though heroes can spot conditions automatically in ways that players cannot."
 * I'm just trying to say that we should not throw every other caster profession out the window when it comes to doing damage, because currently, we are. I do agree that the calculation is somewhat flawed, because I did not take into consideration things like 40/40 sets, consets, or the damage of superior runes. In reference to why I chose a window 56 seconds, in fact, 15 casts is just a number I threw out there, and I concluded to myself that it really wasn't worth doing the damage calculation at all, because it is impossible for heroes to spam anything properly... Even if I account for 40/40 sets, superior runes, and consets, SF still should have higher sustained damage than a Dom Mesmer. In reference to the calculation being flawed because of the attributes and 40/40 sets, I assumed that by keeping both Fire Magic and Domination at 14, the results should be adjusted accordingly, but it sounds like Esurge happens to have a damage threshold that jumps after 15 Dom, so that would be important to consider. However, it sounds to me like a 40/40 set would actually benefit an Ele more than it would a Mesmer, since the Ele is supposed to be using skills more often - every 2 seconds--that's going to trigger the HSR and HCT more than it would for the Mesmer.
 * Forget about the 56 seconds, 15 casts is just a number I threw out there. If that timeframe was halved to 28 seconds, the damage would still be higher than for Mesmers, and I'm betting it still would be higher even with proper attributes and 40/40 sets. If you really want to kill the point, fights don't last 6.49 seconds either. If you really want to find the best hero builds out there, considering that the application is for solo play only, then I should bow out of this discussion--I don't want to play the game by myself--that's a pragmatic argument. And using hero builds to test the effectiveness of new comps quickly, without having to group up real players, will never be the same as doing it with real people, because heroes are dumb in some scenarios. My own question to you is why you are spending so much time figuring out the best hero builds? I have a personal interest in finding super builds that break the game. I also believe that our creativity is stunted if we don't have an open mind about the game in general. It is my belief that every skill has an application, and I just can't stand seeing the same builds and play styles used over, and over, and over again. That's where I'm coming from in all of this. So, if you could find a way that you could increase Mesmer damage even higher than it currently can be, by all means. It's just the fact that if, on paper, an Ele can do more damage over time than a Mesmer can, that might have a real application, we just need to engineer the rest of the team correctly to make that happen.--Saxazaxx (talk) 14:36, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Do you want to know why people throw all the other casters out of the window? Because they actually went out and tested those builds, and concluded that they cant compete with mesmers. If you actually thought about stuff for a moment you would notice that the SF barely benefits from the 40/40 set. Only when both effects trigger can he really make use of it to spam SF more.
 * From what Ive seen, the SF casts glowing gaze almost on CD, and refreshes the attunement on the last second it is active, so that the cast also benefits from the attunement.
 * It does not matter that the SF can do more sustained damage over a long time. In real scenarios, fights are over rather quick, mesmers bring more utility, don't rely on enchants (if attunement gets stripped and its not off cd soon they just drain themselves) and are less likely to be interupted. If you're not looking for the best hero builds, then why are you putting time into finding a hero SF build that can compete with them? Its not even the best ele hero build you can run, not even the best fire build you can run.
 * As for myself, I want the best possible all around builds for my heroes because I am lazy (Im not going to swap skills around for every area) and because running eles instead of mesmer heroes doesn't change anything to my fun ingame. Having the best heroes means I can run shit builds myself, and thats where I get fun from, not the builds my heroes have. Unless I want to do something like bond myself as a VoS and pull everything and then spike it, playing different heroes doesn't change my fun in game.
 * When playing with players one can assume that the fights will be even shorter, as players should be able to use their builds more effectively. And in SCs there is no room for SF eles, because they are just too slow in dealing damage and armor is a thing. If you want to see builds that break the game, take a look at http://gwscr.fbgmguild.com/. The people doing records are pretty open minded, but meta is meta and its not likely to change now without skill updates. However, them being openminded doesnt mean they wont laugh in your face if you come with ridiculous ideas like this, or say stuff like "every skill has an application". ZStepmother (talk) 17:35, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I appreciate the creative aspect of guild wars as well, but as Z says, the intent of my original build page was to create an optimal team build specifically for hero AI. It wasn't for finding a creative/fun build that would be better with players. I do agree with Sax in the regard that not every team build needs to be "general". I would define a general hero team build as one which I could bring almost everywhere, and complete challenges quickly and safely, and not have to mess with my heroes too often. However, there is still some potential for "glass canon" type team setups that aren't for general play, but can give you faster times if executed properly. Of course, my original build page falls very short of this mark. My thinking with ele's (and I think Sax echoed this) is not purely that they can or cannot do higher DPS compared to a mesmer, it was more about the damage being direct. Mesmer teams benefit greatly from a good melee player who is able to push some powerful AoE with splinter weapon, but there are some scenarios where mesmer's skill conditions will not be met (either not enough energy, foe not casting spells, or not performing interruptible actions). Take this all with a grain of salt, its just theory crafting at this point. I am leaning towards perhaps creating a team centered around the player being Any/A and running shadow form. Sonofthort (talk)
 * Also adding, the Campaign Runner build looks very interesting to me, I would like to give this a try. I would also really like if there where a 5 hero setup included in it for completing the crystal desert. Sonofthort (talk)

A team based on a shadow form player? Try 7x enchanter's conundrum. That's 742 damage, clean hero spike against most foes in this game. --Krschkr (talk) 22:10, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I forgot that that skill did AoE, haha. Not a bad suggestion. Sonofthort (talk)
 * Well, I was thinking that it might work to two heroes' SF skills macroed to hotkeys and you, the player, just put their bars on top of your skill bar and spam them when they recharge. That is a workaround.--Saxazaxx (talk) 23:38, 19 December 2018 (UTC)