Archive talk:Team - Perma SF/SS UW

Healing Breeze
Healing Breeze is kinda hard, since you are a A/E. And the visages have no use, since you will never be hit, therefore you can't farm smites eighter. Kongtorp 20:03, 2 July 2008 (EDT)

7/2/08 update
Shadow Form is gonna have trouble in UW now. Ojamo  Tell Me I Fail  20:13, 2 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Not really, it can still be permanently maintained, and it's the SS doing the damage, not the sin.--Golden [[image:Goldenstar.JPG|19px]]Star 20:17, 2 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Goldenstar not trashtalking? Omg. The new Riders spawn guys with Signet of Disenchantment eh.?  ≈ Display  [[image:Horrified.png|19px]]  lolcat  20:25, 2 July 2008 (EDT)
 * put some random cover enchants in, gg No 20:25, 2 July 2008 (EDT)
 * I wonder.. 15 sec recharge, and pretty many are gonna spawn you know.  ≈ Display  [[image:Horrified.png|19px]]  lolcat  20:27, 2 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Read usage: Smites. But that don't work, since visages do not work with SF. Kongtorp 20:29, 2 July 2008 (EDT)
 * However if you actually read it it says to let SF run out, (assuming you allow health to regen) then put of Armor of Earth, Glyph of swiftness-Stoneflesh, so that stone flesh recharges, allowing the SS to cast Visage on you, and SS on the smites
 * Aura of restoration, shadow refuge, shadow sanctuary, and feigned neutrality. Cover enchants pwn.--Golden [[image:Goldenstar.JPG|19px]]Star 20:31, 2 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Heh, I guess.  ≈ Display  [[image:Horrified.png|19px]]  lolcat  20:32, 2 July 2008 (EDT)
 * And when taking away the invincible part of this, and the fast part.. How is this better than with a 55hp? Kongtorp 20:41, 2 July 2008 (EDT)
 * its easier to keep up pretty much. No 20:42, 2 July 2008 (EDT)
 * plus it can aggro more stuff that a 55 can No 20:42, 2 July 2008 (EDT)
 * The smites will kill it.. Kongtorp 20:45, 2 July 2008 (EDT)
 * No they won't No 20:52, 2 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Yes they will. Kongtorp 20:55, 2 July 2008 (EDT)
 * you don't lose health unless you don't maintain it No 20:57, 2 July 2008 (EDT)
 * I think Kongtorp is trying to say that the visages dont trigger when you're Shadow Formed, since you don't get hit. [[Image:Ojamo_Sig.jpg|19px]] Ojamo  Tell Me I Fail  21:02, 2 July 2008 (EDT)
 * oh, yeah, me = fail No 21:02, 2 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Oh, np. It's only been noted twice by me, and once by Ressmonkey. Kongtorp 21:04, 2 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Again, the ussage and proper way to use this build is to STOP MAINTAINING SHADOW FORM AT THE SMITES, with both ele armors up you wont take any dammage from them with max armor(in theory) and therefore should survive the battle with them, for more survival think about bringing a health regen and armor booster from the shadow arts line, there is one of them that gives +10 health regen, and +60 or 80 armor, and should be more then enough to keep you alive. THAT IS HOW TO SURVIVE SMITES, enough said i hope lol<Johnpeckens

fear me
isn't much of a counter, just stay on a low set and cast with a higher set No 20:24, 2 July 2008 (EDT)

Visages wont do anything. ---  Ressmonkey (talk)  20:32, 2 July 2008 (EDT)

A very easy way to completely avoid the use of "Fear Me" is to NOT attack the Graspings. I stress this to all people I team with whenever I duo UW. The SS need not attack, just stand back and cast away.Masterjer1 22:56, 6 February 2009 (EST)

AGGRO
I heard in HM things like to change it.--71.67.243.230 20:45, 2 July 2008 (EDT)
 * i herd in 55/SS the SS needs to stay out of range No 20:47, 2 July 2008 (EDT)
 * I heard in 55/SS the SS needs to cast SS.--71.67.243.230 20:49, 2 July 2008 (EDT)
 * i herd the SS casts shit and get away, if you can't cast SS without getting killed ur doing it wrong No 20:50, 2 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Not exactly hard to use an ss build unless your a dumb ass Gars Gate Opener 02:06, 2 July 2008 (GMT)
 * Doesn't matter, they run and regen in HM. Tried it several times, and it works to an extent, but it takes so fucking long it isn't worth it. -- Sazzy  19:30, 16 July 2008 (EDT)

Locations
This really cant farm anywhere of impotance. It cant kill smites and cant kill in the chaos planes. IMO, put a WELL tag on it with the reason "UW changes." Killing Grasps and AAtxes isn't enough for a 2 man build. ---  Ressmonkey (talk)  21:08, 2 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Could use the build in FoW instead Gars Gate Opener 02:09, 2 July 2008 (GMT)

What do you need Visages for?  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ  19:17, 16 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Smites removing hexes, thus no damage from you/you die. [[Image:Beta Rotting Flesh.jpg|17px]]Kongtorp 19:28, 16 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Needs hitting to work. Cant hit thru SF. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]]  Ressmonkey (talk)  19:34, 16 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Smite Hex and Zealous Fire? [[Image:Beta Rotting Flesh.jpg|17px]]Kongtorp 19:45, 16 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Visages only trigger when u get hit in melee. SF = no hits.  No hits = no working visages. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]]  Ressmonkey (talk)  19:47, 16 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Yes, no working visages=smites got energy. Smites got energy=you dead. [[Image:Beta Rotting Flesh.jpg|17px]]Kongtorp 19:51, 16 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Usage

Upon spawning, cast your skills in order 1 -> 2 -> 3. Maintain Shadow Form. Aggro two groups of aatxe and the patrolling ones. Have the ss get the quest then pull all enemies to one side of you and call out for SS.
 * At smites let shadow form run out and maintain armor of earth and stone flesh(Make sure to use glyph with stoneflesh)|||||||||||||| AT SMITES LET SHADOW FORM RUN OUT AND MAINTAIN ARMOR..... lol i shouldnt have to post this 12 tiems if people would just read the ussage< Johnpeckens

HOW LOL!
Me Rask the troll that was banned.(For trollings of course ;).) Has been more help on this build than any members AND/OR Buildmasters Admin me pl0x kthnx lulz. Anyways I use this with my friend when we get bored. Bring earth attunement if you fail with energy and fiegned neutrality if you get scared of shit. FYI this can do plains too if you don't have a newb ss that gets pwned on the way.(avoid cursed in my experience they drop just as shitty as mindblades). -_-_->Rask AKA Bluerask (The Troll)

fixed team composition
sins bar was a bit messed up.--IM BLUE! 23:36, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

This still cant do smites. The main problem with them is Smite Hex removing your hexes, which will kill the sin nad remove SS, making them take pretty much no damage. ---  Ressmonkey (talk)  08:12, 24 July 2008 (EDT)
 * read permasins usage on smites area. it sais u drop SF and use armor or earth and stoneflesh to stay alive while SV+AV drain nrg from smites.--IM BLUE! 19:55, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

and this got rated fail how if u actually can do smites in nm............................
u drop SF and use armor of earth and stoneflesh dilweeds.--IM BLUE!
 * totally right, votewipe is needed... people just don't think when they see a build i guess=pClose[[Image:CloseImpactSW.jpg|19px]]Impact Too Muh Bruh  11:08, 9 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Agreed Broseph 00:17, 10 August 2008 (EDT)

Writing builds
Try to at least be somewhat competent when writing builds. At one point, the stupidity becomes overly rampant. &mdash; Rapta   (talk|contribs) 00:19, 10 August 2008 (EDT)

Can farm chaos plains
I think they removed the signet of disenchant guys so you probably could farm there, but the sin is better off just soloing it Ebolax 18:55, 20 August 2008 (EDT)

Visages and Shadow Form
Do Visages now work on a target that can't be hit due to SF? If not, the visages aren't doing much more than wasting energy, are they? -- Aubee91 13:27, 1 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Or you just could read the usage.  ≈ Display  [[Image:Godliest Table.png|10px]]  talk  17:42, 1 October 2008 (EDT)

Edit Visages and Shadow Form
Ok I'm just going to put this out there for those of us who did not read it and continue to post that you use SF on the Smites and will cause the run to FAIL, this is not true, if you read the usage, you don't use SF on the smites, and instead use Armor of Earth and glyph of swiftness to maintain Stoneflesh, allowing you to live. Also, for the Chaos Planes, Asuming you bring skills to survive traps/knockdown, i sugest IAU "I Am Unstopable", and the one skill that gives like +80 armor and +7-8 health regen, keeping your armor skills up to prevent dammage. IAU allows you to bypass the charged blackness which knocks you down, and allows you to make it to the chaos planes, these skills also allow you to farm the bone pits, the spawn pits, and the mountains, allowing for a almost complete farm, if you bring Perma sins and 2 Ss, i believe you could clear to the chest with a longer run, using both perma sins to kill the 4 horsemans. Ty for reading and for taking my imput, i hope this helps. (EDT) November 4, 2008 (JohnPeckens)
 * Then fix it-- Shadow [[Image:Relyk Sig.gif]] 14:40, 10 November 2008 (EST)


 * Is there a way to kill the Obsidian Behemoths? or do you just run past them? 68.117.1.5 22:14, 12 January 2009 (EST)Ghost


 * get a brave SS to quickly hex them. assassin then auto attacks perhaps? not too sure sorry but thats all i got ƃuoן sı [[Image:Escape.jpg|19px]] ʇɐɔƃuoן 20:18, 2 February 2009 (EST)

Chaos Plains?
I can see how (with the extra armor) the perma sin can tank-walk it's way to the plains no problem. But how does the necro get there? Follow closely behind with fingers crossed? Or do you have to kill your way there? I greatly appreciate anyone that can give (good) advice on this. Ministry of Chaos 19:04, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

This build doesn't work
Monsters will always run and regen, then the SS won't be able to get in range to cast SS without agroing the monsters that ran away to regen. Avatar Kuzon 22:20, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
 * no they won't. you let sf drop health and then put it up and aggro Exo Oo 22:21, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Alright, but that still doesn't change the fact that once a monster drops below 50% health, it will run away to regen.
 * I just tried what you said Exo, and they still ran. Avatar Kuzon 22:45, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I have the same problem, but only on Hard Mode. In Normal mode, all of the monsters stick to the SF Sin until they die.Ministry of Chaos 23:42, 10 April 2009 (UTC)


 * You're in UW for ectos; HM doesn't increase ecto drop rate. Must I say more? --10.8.2.158 00:06, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Correct. HM and NM don't yield different drop rates. All you're doing in HM is slowing down the run.  00:11, 11 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Shit dies equally fast/faster; IAS makes SS hurt. --84.24.141.169 00:12, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Monsters have higher health in HM. 00:13, 11 April 2009 (UTC)


 * 60-100 hp more, iirc. In the end they probably die at the same time. --84.24.141.169 00:15, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Not to mention the natural health regen.[[Image:Xtreme Hunter.png]] 00:20, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Just dont fail and lrn2bodyblock.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 03:12, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

This build does work
This build does exactly what it says it does, replaces the 55 in the normal 55/ss farming team. It does every area most 55/ss's do, and if you believe that this build does not work, it is because you do not understand it. I use this build all the time. Now, to say that this build is better than 55/ss, i would disagree. In the chamber, this build is great, as it is easy for the perma to aggro everything, but a good 105 monk (more advanced 55 monk), can do pretty much just as good in the chamber (read "Best Possible 55 Build" under the build discussion for the 55/ss team). When it comes to wastes however (where smites and cold fires are), most sins aren't good enough to be as good as a good 105 monk. That being said, it is possible to be amazing in wastes with this build, sin must aggro everything with shadow form, have colds and smites clumped together seperately (which isn't hard because smites stay at melee range and cold fires are at caster range), then have the ss eliminate the cold fires, then, wait for you to switch to what i like to call "Earth Form". This is done by casting armor of earth, stone flesh aura, and shadow refuge or feigned (my choice) right before shadow form expires. When this happens, you will lose most of your health, but even if u aggroed 5 groups of smites, you can regenerate your hp, which takes a few seconds using shadow refuge. Once you get to a high hp, the ss can begin to nuke the smites. This all comes down to the skill of the ss, because it is possible for an ss to quickly kill the smites without them ever being able to use smite hex. Wastes can be broken down into 3-5 groups depending on spawn and how skilled the sin is. Also, glyph of elemental power is far superior to glyph of swiftness, as it buffs both of your earth spells making you a better tank, and increases the duration of stoneflesh just long enough that with a 20% enchanting weapon it can be maintained almost permenatly. If you are afraid that within the split second that stone flesh will not be on you that you will die, cast shadow refuge before.
 * The idea in using Glyph of Swiftness with SFA is that GoS maked it 100% maintainable. Then you do not need to heal at all. Also sign your comments ;) --Sam6555 22:51, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, I understand that, but elemental power extends the length of stone flesh just long enough that there is only a split second that it is not on you, which is never really an issue, if you lose any health in this time, it is recovered by natural regen. I only said you can use shadow refuge if you are not sure that u will make it, or if u aren't pro enough to cast that fast.  The benefit of using elemental power is energy, you save more energy because the glyph lasts longer and you don't need to use it before every stoneflesh, and it beefs up your earth spells, so u lose less health from regular attacks and smite hex. This is the build I run, it is for pros only (lol):

[build prof=A/E name="Pro" ear=12 dead=2 sha=12][Glyph of Swiftness][Deadly Paradox][Shadow Form][Glyph of Elemental Power][Armor of Earth][Stoneflesh Aura][Feigned Neutrality][Shadow Refuge][/build]
 * No res sig because an experienced ss shouldn't die unless they are having technical issues, which in that case having res scrolls on hand is a good idea, all permas should have them anyways. I prefer to have Feigned Neutrality on my bar because it sort of gaurentees that you are not going to die when you switch to earth form in the middle of a battle as I talked about earlier.  I don't think that a shadow step skill should be used, because I see sins using them while I'm in the middle of ssing, and it causes the group to scatter.  They shouldn't be used as a heal, and if you would use them for getting unstuck, well, thats too bad you got stuck in the first place, learn how to not get stuck in the first place.  The ss will just have to kill the group the way you aggroed it.  I suppose Feigned can be replaced, but definetly not by a shadow step or res sig.
 * You don't get it do you? GoS makes it so SFA can be permanently maintained, wont even drop for a split second. 12 earth is more than enough to tank all the smites damage, doesn't need beefing up by GoEP. And if you are having energy problems, you should rethink your armor/weapon sets, as 4 regen + a high energy set of armor/weapon is enough. And with your views on shadowsteps, they are useful, and one should be on the build to avoid body-blocking. Sure EXP people should be able to never be body-blocked but some people can't, due a 1.66 second shad form cast and with melee AI designed to block people by running to the sides before they get to you...Everyone should know that shad steps or moving whilst holding aggro will mkae stuff scatter. And sign your comments with 4 tildes ( ~ ) --Sam6555 03:43, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I respect your ideas, but I wish you wouldn't tell me that I don't get it. I do understand that glyph of swiftness will allow you to maintain stoneflesh constantly, if I didn't understand this ability of glyph of swiftness, would I be a perma in the first place?  My point is that indeed, sometimes damage does get through earth form, such as smite hex.  When this happens, permas must spam shadow refuge to recover hp, thus using extra energy.  Using glyph of elemental power increases your damage reduction, so you won't have as much health to recover if damage does get through, and also saves you energy, as you don't need to cast the glyph before every stone flesh.  If you take my suggestion, and aggro huge amounts of smites, then the extra boost you get from glyph of elemental power helps alot, especially when you do a mid battle switch from shadow form to earth form.  Maybe you are the one that didn't understand my post, as I was trying to make the point that glyph of elemental power can effectively replace glyph of swiftness.  IT EXTENDS THE LENGTH OF STONEFLESH, SO THAT THERE IS ONLY A SPLIT SECOND THAT IT IS NOT UPON YOU, DURING WHICH TIME, YOU WILL TAKE VERY MINIMAL DAMAGE, WHICH WILL NOT REQUIRE YOU TO HEAL, SINCE YOU WILL EXPERIENCE NATURAL HEALTH REGENERATION ONLY A FEW SECONDS AFTER YOU CAST STONE FLESH AURA, RECOVERING ANY HEALTH YOU MAY HAVE LOST.  Remember, you have a beefed up armor of earth to negate the damage you might take in this short period of time.  Sure, glyph of elemental power takes up an extra slot on your bar, but can be helpful, as it allows you to save your energy for times when you may run into trouble, and increases your tanking abilities against smite hex.  When I do a Perma/SS run, I do the same areas 55/ss teams do, I don't do plains and pits, cus that adds time to the run I didn't want to invest in the first place, and find it annoying to try to kill mindblades with an ss necro.  That being said, there are really no other skills on your bar that could better replace glyph of elemental power if you are doing a typical dual run.  Feigned Neutrality is nice to have because it can be used in certain situations to save yourself when shadow form or earth spells are not up or available, however, that is the skill which I believe is the most optional on the bar.Smity Smitington 04:14, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * If you're getting hit by smite hex, your SS is horrible. There's no point trying to prevent what should never happen. In addition, you will only get hit by 3 smite hexes at the most. If you die from 3, you're doing something wrong. Maintaining stoneflesh is better than making it stronger because you take 0 damage anyways. I personally like IAU and LoD to allow easier agroing(don't have to agro while slowed) and to kill faster. However, the perma build is mostly preference. 32.154.179.54 05:01, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not only smite hex that gets through, I'm pretty sure I've seen other smite damage get through. Also, I'm not sure exactly how you are going to get slowed down.  There's really no time or place that a cold fire should be able to get a hex on you.  And 3 smite hexes at the most? Have you heard of recklass haste?  Did you read how I suggested pulling 5 groups of smites at once?  Maybe you are the sin that has to aggro every group seperately, in that case, glyph of elemental power isn't for you.Smity Smitington 12:28, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, just to clear everything up, I realize you were refering to armor of earths decreased movement speed. If you aggro wastes the way I suggested, then that is never a problem.  I also believe that there is no better or faster way to do wastes than the way which I suggested.  I also did a test.  To maintain stoneflesh aura and armor of earth constantly, using glyph of swiftness, your energy will slowly be going down over time.  Go ahead and test this.  Granted, it is a slow loss of energy over time, but it is important to note that after some time, you will no longer have the energy to maintain "Earth Form" using glyph of swiftness. When does this matter?  Well, you will have to wait for your energy to regen after each battle, and theres no way you could hold a group of smites for an extended period of time if you needed to do so, unless you switched to shadow form again.  I believe the build I suggested is for sins who want to aggro huge groups in wastes, to be much faster, and I believe I have proven that my build is the best for doing so.  If you don't like to be fast in wastes, then don't use my build.Smity Smitington 12:41, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, I step back for a minute. If you are extremely conscious of waiting to recast your earth spells until the vary last minute they are due, it is possible to defeat the loss of energy over time I talked about.  However, I would still like to point out, that it is very hard to be this conscious of the timing, when your main concern is staying alive, and you don't want to risk a spell running out before you recast it (obviously, this is what I suggest doing in my build, so I kind of contradict myself, but I believe the view point of my inquirers was that they should be maintained constantly).  Also, If you are conscious enough to experience no energy loss over time, one thing you will not have is energy gain over time.  Why is this important?  Well, generally isn't regenerating energy a good thing?  What if you need to cast another spell?  My theory on tanking is this: Get your build down to the core at what will make is the strongest in any situation you may face in the area it is designed for.  What makes a good tank?  Somebody who knows that smite hex shouldn't get through, but is prepared for if it does, and runs with new people sometimes, so doesn't always know their partners skill level.  You just have to be prepared for what may happen, so that you have the highest possibility of staying alive.  Don't let that confuse you though, because you shouldn't worry about staying alive to the point where its gonna slow you down.  The second thing that make a good tank is one who trys to make the run as fast as possible.  With this build, you don't have to aggro with armor of earth, and you take huge number of enemies at a time, which makes the run go much faster.  This build is designed to be extremely fast, and extremely reliable.
 * I am humbled by this impenetrable wall of letters.-- Ikimono "a rabid grizzly bear" [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png|24px]] 13:38, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * There are only 3 hexes at any one time, so yes, 3 smite hex. Nothing else gets through.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 16:09, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You are mistaken. Recklass Haste is an aoe hex, therefore if you aggro 20 smites, theres 20 possible smite hexes right off the bat.  Also, you have to be extremely careful of smite crawls getting near cold fires, cus they will become hexed from there point blank aoe spells, and smite hex near you.  You are also volnurable to colds fires point blank spells, and it is not uncommon for somebody attempting to aggro huge groups to make a mistake resulting in damage from cold fire induced spells or cold fire induced smite hexes.  Ofcourse, If you are not planning on taking on huge groups in wastes, then you will not need to worry about this kind of stuff...

Ah, and so I am. Well, there's still the fact that the smites will have 0 energy due to visages. If you get close enough to coldifres you're doing it wrong anyways.  Life  17:49, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes... and when the ss is able to keep visages up and prevent smite hex, this build will do substantially well at keeping you alive. As I said, it is able to do what a glyph of swiftness build would do, plus has extra benefits, which you may not be concerned with.  Whether glyph of elemental power is a good idea to have on your bar or not, the main thing I want people to get out of this is to be brave and take on huge groups, I'm sick of seeing people use this build, and take on single groups one at a time.  I guess I'm all about getting down to the science of things, which isn't some peoples thang.  Basically, you should know how to aggro cold fires and smites together, and switch to earth spells mid battle to take out smites after cold fires are killed.Smity Smitington 18:20, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

TL;DR
Come On 14:14, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Holy autists, Batman! This page is full of them! ··· Danny   Does   Drugs  19:02, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

fow
can you do the fow with this any of it at all?
 * Fow is tricky because shadow warrior's one hundred bladed's gets through shadow form, so most sins use earth spells in the background of shadow form when doing fow. I'm not really sure that the visages would be needed, spirit shackles is very effective againsts monks in fow.  I've never attempted dual fow perma/ss style, so I can't really tell you for sure, I do know that monks are very effective at dual farming fow, so I'm not sure if a perma would be superior to a 600 or even some old school 55 builds designed for fow.  My suggestion would be to research perma tanking builds for fow, maybe look under fowsc. Smity Smitington 19:13, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Sunspear rez?
is sunspear rez really such a good choice for the perma on this build.... works well for the SS but if the SS dies usually nothing gets killed because aggro breaks, nothing attacks until it gets to the SS... soo i always have a perma bring normal rez so the SS doesnt rez in the middle of 5 aatxe

Interesting
interesting that this build is still here even though i made it ages ago haha I see their has been lots of changes to it too Gars Gate Opener 23:44, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Video?
Anyone got a video of this in action?

UW Update
Haven't had a chance to test this yet, but I am curious, is it possible to somehow heal passed the "damage" that the skeletons deal while the ss kills them? Also, there are available slots on the necro bar to bring skills that might help against them. First, two visages is nice but isn't needed, and suffering isn't needed either. There really aren't too many direct healing spells that a necro could use however, besides blood bond. One possibility is to put Spinal Shivers on the necro, and have the sin and necro both carry cold weapons, to interupt spells from the Skeleton of Duecheness. Smity Smitington talk2me 12:43, November 14, 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmmm im thinking this might knock this build outta contention. Poss both(or just neccy) bring Ebon Sin Support and target skeles to keep em busy while SS takes them down? Obsidianflame 19:35, December 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it would be possible with a few tweaks, especially with spinal shivers, but in the end the build becomes a novelty, not nearly as effective as it once was, leaving 600/smite or 600/ss the only viable option for dual uw. Smity Smitington talk2me 20:28, December 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * I would agree there, while it would/may be possible, permas arnt going to be efficent tanks for a duo team, so it would certainly, at the very least remove it "great" status.81.2.86.131 20:39, December 3, 2009 (UTC)