Archive talk:A/any BH Spike Sin

Haze
Beguilng Haze is redundant in this build with the KD and small amount of dagger attacks in chain, use a different elite or change Iron Palm. Selket Shadowdancer 06:41, 23 February 2008 (EST)
 * Black Spider Strike then.--Relyk 16:11, 23 February 2008 (EST)
 * You don't want to have to siphon your targets after you shadow step to them, lest you lose the entire premise of a "surprise attack". Consider taking something like this:


 * There isn't too much other option, anyways. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 01:10, 24 February 2008 (EST)
 * Well, for the "surprise attack," bring iron palm and falling spider, though as Selket pointed out, it's redundant.--Relyk 21:41, 25 February 2008 (EST)
 * By the time you have pulled the chain off the enemy is Dazed for about 2 seconds more? Drop Impale and the Signet and throw some more dagger skills in.
 * Impale and Signet of Toxic Shock don't interrupt Daze which make them pointless and slow to use in this build. Beguilng Haze suits decent dagger chains more as they punish casters when they try to cast back at their attacker out of defence. With just two attack skills this doesn't really do it that much as a Monk could quite easily pull off SoA or something when the Assassin is activating Impale of Signet or Toxic Shock, even under a Dazed condition. Alone this won't kill. Selket Shadowdancer 21:49, 25 February 2008 (EST)
 * You aren't the only one attacking a dazed monk. -Shen 21:59, 25 February 2008 (EST)
 * (ec)In which case you'd probably run this: Archive:A/D Beguiling Insight
 * Especially since this is going to be considered for GvG use, you'd want the guaranteed KD from Iron Palm with the energy from FLS. The idea here is that you can spike down casters as well as non-squishies in your split, in which case, since you're running sinsplit, would have the other assassin taking dagger attacks. The KD you get from Iron Palm is invaluable. Assuming you're not fighting only retarded targets, having daggers on this character wouldn't make a large difference anyways. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 22:01, 25 February 2008 (EST)
 * Thats more for a specific build. I'm judging this by its own merits. If you want it to be judged differently put it in a team setup. You could run a BHA Ranger alongside an Assassin and probably get better results due to their universatility. Selket Shadowdancer 22:05, 25 February 2008 (EST)
 * What are you talking about? This has a GvG tag on it. And FYI, sinsplit usually doesn't have room for a ranger. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 22:09, 25 February 2008 (EST)
 * This also has 4 other tags on it. Remember that. Selket Shadowdancer 22:11, 25 February 2008 (EST)
 * That's irrelevant. It has a GvG tag on it. It will probably be judged based on its performance there. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 22:15, 25 February 2008 (EST)
 * Then remove unirrelevant tags, this just would not work in all areas mentioned. Selket Shadowdancer 22:16, 25 February 2008 (EST)
 * Why do that when this build was written with that tag? It is possible to modify the build accordingly. I can see it working somewhat well in its current state, and suggesting possible improvements is what the talk page is for.
 * Or do I need to explain that to you as well? You seem to be arguing not to make a point, but for the sake of sounding right when you're not. Don't argue without a goal in mind. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 22:24, 25 February 2008 (EST)
 * (Three edit conflicts) A monk isn't going to try to cast SoA while Dazed, is what I think Rapta means. -Shen 22:12, 25 February 2008 (EST)
 * Exactly. And if they do, you have plenty of leeway to hit them with your one or two dagger attacks (be it a skill or autoattack). &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 22:14, 25 February 2008 (EST)
 * What when your using Impale and Signet of Toxic Shock? Selket Shadowdancer 22:15, 25 February 2008 (EST)
 * You're better off using Impale and Signet of Toxic Shock if you've gotten so much of your combo off already. It's not like SoA will do anything to Deep Wound spike. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 22:16, 25 February 2008 (EST)
 * Impale and SoTS combo is slow. SoA can't protect against Deep Wound no but it can protect against the damage done along side it. Selket Shadowdancer 22:22, 25 February 2008 (EST)
 * Yes, that 5 damage is really going to hurt, isn't it? If it means so much to you, then chances are that your spike has mostly failed anyways. And you can always cancel, hit, and use the skill again. Use common sense. Don't rely on mindlessly pressing 123456. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 22:25, 25 February 2008 (EST)
 * I don't rely on pressing 123456, I think about what a good opponent can possibly do. This isn't hard for a good monk to protect themselves against especially seems stance blocking is becoming popular, and seems it's a team game you can bring his team mate into it too with whatever he may be running (which could to be quite honest be practically anything without being specific). Again also I bring up the facts that this is not just put forward for GvG, whether that be it's main purpose or not, this just would not operate as well in different arenas. While I respect that you are an experienced player, your opinion doesn't change mine in the slightest. Selket Shadowdancer 22:34, 25 February 2008 (EST)
 * In arenas, there will probably be more than one person hitting the monk. It's better to have a guaranteed KD along with condition spread and unresisted damage in your attack. So again, I'm not sure what you're talking about again. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 22:41, 25 February 2008 (EST)
 * Man, you guys are going at it, i just put Beguiling Haze in replace of Shadow Prison for a viable build that puts extra pressure on casters. I'll change back to Iron Palm, Black Spider Strike will be variant.--Relyk 11:56, 27 February 2008 (EST)
 * The issue with it as is is that it pretty much requires Siphon to hit the combo. If the enemy is already running or begins running when you begin to cast Iron Palm, it's very likely that they'll be too far away for you to hit with Falling Spider (they'll be standing up again by the time you get there).  Even -33% movement speed for them (ie Dark Prison) isn't enough.  It needs Siphon on any target that's moving, and that's going to take away alot of the surprise.  Gaze Of Balthazar 21:00, 29 February 2008 (EST)

First, resetting indent(sorry if I broke some weird rule ;D). Out of the 5 sin builds ive seen for AB today, this is the best. High condition pressure with powerful damage, a guaranteed KD and a powerful snare.Waterbottle5 19:35, 2 March 2008 (EST)
 * Then obviously u havent tried the original deadly arts spike build. This is just dupe using BH instead of SP. IMO, Daze<snare when spiking, the original build is better. Plus, with BH, attribute point spread is thinner. [[image:IAmJebus_sig.jpg|20px]] I Am   *  Jebus  *  15:39, 3 March 2008 (EST)
 * How is a Snare the same as Daze? They are incomparable. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 16:41, 3 March 2008 (EST)
 * Siphon speed works well enough as a snare, although it doesn't drastically reduce speed, it frees up room for BH which helps shut down casters like the monk and which aids quite a bit on spikes, it also does nice damage and has great condition pressure, casters won't know what hit them.Waterbottle5 19:47, 3 March 2008 (EST)

Siphon Speed not needed
Since the notes said that the build could b run without Siphon Speed, i put it in the variants.  I Am   *  Jebus  *  16:38, 3 March 2008 (EST)
 * Wrong. It says it's not required for use during the spike. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 16:41, 3 March 2008 (EST)

assasins promise in ab
I always play this build with assasins promise as elite in ab, fast recharge, i put it in variants>master mits21:45, 15 july 2008 (EST)

Isnt BH a waste?
Most of your chain won't even trigger the daze, and they are KDed for part of it. Seems very wasteful to me... 16:19, 15 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Lack of aftercast on BH actually makes it faster than original.  Frosty  No U!  16:21, 15 July 2008 (EDT)
 * It recharges faster than SP and has no aftercast. [[Image:mightymouse.gif|25px]] moush 21:10, 21 July 2008 (EDT)

BH > SP
Ye think this is better if your going Split but its not deadly :( (500dmg ~) but whit no aftercast faster recharge and daze its still mush better than the old one.. Still Viable alone in GvG? Needs to be almost a TEAM around it for it to work in gvg Massive   11:31, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Just because builds are submitted seperatly doesn't mean you don't have allies. And I thought Beguiling already has after cast.  Frosty  No U!  11:40, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Not a single Shadow Step had aftercast until the update. The Daze is also very useful for finishing off a target. ــмıкε  нaшк  11:50, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

Hmm, ye it's a spell :/ Doesnt like each spell have 0.75 aftercast or something? If so :( Massive   11:51, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Nope, Aftercast. ــмıкε  нaшк  11:53, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

Attributes and Skills
[build prof=a/any dead=12+1+2 dagger=8+1 crit=7+1 shadow=8+1][beguiling haze][iron palm][falling spider][twisting Fangs][Signet of Deadly Corruption][signet of toxic shock][Dash][Resurrection Signet][/build]

Im not sure but wouldnt this be better whit more DMG? Altough the Vamp Assualt life steal was nice i think that this is better since it lacks a bit killing powah :/ Massive   11:54, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

Might look A BIT moar nenergy heavy but the Vamp and Impale was 5+5 = 10, as SoDC is a Signe its free so still its the same energy cost as the one before Massive   11:55, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
 * People have been posting that build, is been welled as a variant though, probably add as a variant skill bar.--[[Image:Relyk Purifying Veil Sig.jpg|19px]]R ELYK   ʞlɐʇ ʎɯ  17:09, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
 * That build doesn't actually deal any more damage than the current one (against a 60 AL, at least) because Vampiric Assault deals 50 more damage than Twisting Fangs and SoDC only deals 30 more damage than Impale (mind you it isn't armor-affected.) So, the current build would deal 20 more damage, but the one posted above has more degen and is better against armoured foes. If you take another knockdown (Shock, Scorpion Wire, Bull's Strike, Bane Signet...), however, the current build would be better because Vampiric Assault has a lower recharge than Twisting Fangs. ــмıкε  нaшк  18:09, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Recharge doesn't really matter unless you take a secondary KD. Selket Shadowdancer 18:17, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

kk i didnt know but i tought only this was better whit 7degen Massive   18:46, 23 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Well, the degen probably will make up for that 20 damage lost, and even more, tbh. >.> ــмıкε  нaшк  19:00, 23 July 2008 (EDT)

I love this variant, it just about murders everything except for warriors and shield bash monks in AB, it's great. If they won't die of the initial spike, the degen will certainly kill them 81.71.25.43 15:42, 26 July 2008 (EDT)

Excellent
There seems to be some issues here, most have been covered by others like shadowdancer but if someone could give good responses it would be great.


 * The elite isnt being used to its full potential as daze is only triggered by 2 of the attacks in this chain.


 * Attribute points spread across 4 areas - not a big problem as the damage is there but as a general rule spreading over 4 or more should be avoided where possible.


 * The spike only has 357 damage + poison. + 3 normal dagger hits (which will = around and extra 35 dmg) - this is less damage than other sin spike builds and definatly cannot kill solo


 * Based on its lack of damage susstained combat (or help from other players) is needed so some self protection or self heal is needed but there is no room for it.

I can see it being average or even good but excellent?

Admins are just removing posts of people who disagree with them dispite their comments and opinions beining valid. Im not gonna bother voting as it will be removed is this what PvX wiki has come to?? Xiay 07:57, 24 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Okay, guild wars is a team game, just because you don't directly gain much from the daze, your other melee/allies can. The attributes are a bit messy, but they are the best it can get, and still have optimal performance. Your forgetting about Deep Wound in the spike, that is another 100 damage, bring it up to 457 + 3 damage attacks, = enough to kill (just). This is a split assassin, it shouldn't be used alone, remember, guild wars is a team game, no single person can win or loose a match (onless you d-shot infuse or something).  Frosty  No U!  08:02, 24 July 2008 (EDT)
 * This is Great because SP got nerfed.-- L  R  20:03, 29 July 2008 (EDT)


 * #1 Daze Ftw
 * #2 Shadowstep whit no aftercast + interrupt of the current skill!
 * #3 KD
 * #4 Posion, (covers over daze)
 * #5 Life Steal Damage
 * #6 Ranged Damage Skills (Impale and SoDC)

Massive  15:26, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Only nuisance is the recharge. ــмıкε  нaшк  15:37, 31 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Lol Life steal isn't damage-- L  R  17:40, 2 August 2008 (EDT)
 * I love how everyone thinks that BH doesnt have an aftercast. Its an interrupt, its always had an aftercast. 98.207.210.93 16:40, 7 August 2008 (EDT)
 * It isn't supposed to have an aftercast (as explained on that page), but it could be wrong/bugged. >.> ــмıкε  нaшк  16:42, 7 August 2008 (EDT)

Wait
If the SP Deadly Arts Sin got archived for aftercast, why is this still around, it has ALWAYS had aftercasts, zzz.  Frosty  No U!  18:42, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Recharge, less redundancy of Iron Palm+SP, otherwise, not much. ــмıкε  нaшк  18:49, 11 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Daze is good last time i looked-- R  e l y k 21:35, 18 August 2008 (EDT)

Unarchived
Is still pretty good, and still if Deadly Arts fell out of favor its still good.. Massive  11:59, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Well that makes the SP Deadly Arts sin viable... -- Frosty [[Image:Mini england.jpg|19px]] 12:01, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Deadly arts fell out of favor because of the aftercasts, but BH always HAD aftercasts and works fine.Pika Fan [[image:lightningbolt_sig.jpg|19x19px]] 12:03, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Agree also Frosty this build has Daze which makes the spells usually casted after the Sin teleport longer it also interrupts so whit the aftercast ppl have it wont even be noticed:P Massive  [[Image:Image-Massive Sig.jpg|19px]] 15:47, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
 * The spike is wayyyyy to easy to catch. When I first started playing a Ranger in PvP, Iron Palm from this particular build was the easiest skills with an activation of 1 second or less to d-shot. The spike is slow, in fact, slower than most Dervish or Warrior spikes, and the build can't pressure in between those spikes, which is pretty shitty considering the long recharge. ــмıкε  нaшк  15:50, 17 September 2008 (EDT)
 * Tbh, like all the hits are when they are already kded, so the daze don't do much. The interrupt + shadowstep is the only thing that makes any sense and it's not really that good of a spike. DA sins were for NPC ganking and people ran them in RA because they could. It's fine as archived. - Misery  Is  Friendly  [[image:Misery Dog obaby.gif|19px]] 16:05, 17 September 2008 (EDT)

i just love and hate at the same time that almost all sin builds, mez builds, monk builds, ranger builds, warrior builds, and derv builds are all the same except for one skill, example, this and dealy arts sin is only 1 skill defference, the elite, ranger builds all have a 1 elite difference, warrior builds have those 1 elite/1-2 skill differences, like PRage /shock axe, mez builds are named after elite just 1 elite diff, so on so on, blablabla. cant somone just make something totally NEVER though about, and has no similarities to other builds? one of those original was the D/A sin w/ 156 DPS, D/A capper, derv echo+imbue or pious renewal+sig of pious light, u know, somehting "ORIGINAL"????->IPWN68.227.202.180 01:58, September 13, 2009 (UTC)