Archive talk:Team - 7 Hero Player Support/Archive 1

New build for any player profession
A build to suit any player profession with optionals to cover most eventualities. ER Prot for bar compression and extreme protection and spot healing. Resto because it's the best hero healer. MM because minions are always good. A para to provide party IMS, party armor buff, spirit & minion (and physical player) damage buff and some utility (hex removal for example). Panic and Ineptitude mesmers for awesome damage and enemy shutdown. Ritualist for channeling damage and support. The build is only lacking Orders because it is too specific for melee players; melee players looking for Orders damage should bring more physical heroes anyway to take advantage of Orders. I didn't include SoGM in the main build because in my opinion it's not very good because of the lack of Summon Spirits and utility. For those so inclined I did include it in the Variants section. Lastly, the two example builds included are just that, examples. With the optional skills you can cover all bases and player professions. Have fun! Dzjudz 23:45, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, you know, yours build page is very well made, lots of work, but generally the build ... hmm ... how to say that... it is just cluster of many other builds which everyone uses :P it isn't original, everyone uses mesmers SoS, ER eles, N/Rt. I think we should rather look for new ideas (I'm working at Solo VS Farm currently on my sin), something suprising. I wont vote now, maybe later, Ill wait with this a while. -- God Focused Anger.jpg Kamil  18:55, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you. It was some work yes (had it first on my sandbox page). Not terribly original I know (you can untick the innovation box lol), but builds that are mostly meta and have been proven to work. I am also waiting for new team builds (possibly with Mercs even though I don't own them), but in the meantime I'm happy with this. Dzjudz 20:43, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
 * You should rather take Life in place of Rejuvenation in N/Rt bar imo :P Would be better.-- God Focused Anger.jpg Kamil  20:58, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I know that Life is meta and I didn't include it on purpose. I don't understand the appeal of a random heal even if it is a 120hp party heal. At least Rejuvenation heals on demand. Not a lot but still. Furthermore, unless you disable it the hero will constantly cast it on recharge even out of battle. Maybe this annoys only me but ok :). Life is probably a viable optional though. Dzjudz 21:18, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
 * life was originally used for mbas and spirit light, no reason to use life or rejuv when you have sos. recovery is useful in some cases though ff is sufficient for condition removal-- Relyk  talk  23:46, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
 * ^ and that its quite useful for minions Falrach 23:56, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Counteracting the very purpose of minion bombing doesn't make it quite useful. Then again, I don't know why bone fiend is on the bar.Anvil God 01:54, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Because minions might as well be useful. Just using low-level minions that die in 1 or 2 hits isn't very helpful. Bone Fiends do most damage and they are in range of the para. It's not a pure bombing build, Death Nova is just there to add damage when they do die. Level 20 Bone Horrors + level 21 Bone Fiends are pretty useful. Level 15 Bone Minions are useless except for blowing up. Plus, stronger minions distract enemies longer. Dzjudz 02:03, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The raw damage of minions aren't a lot especially without Barbs or Mark of Pain. All it is is more meat walls, and bone fiends are the worst at that.  Also, having minions near your midline isn't that great. Anvil God 02:07, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * 2 level 15 minions = level 30 minion, so they have to be better!-- Relyk  talk  02:34, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Skill suggestions
Thanks for all the input so far. With the current build, I've been vanquishing a great variety of areas, completed HM missions and several elite areas. Using the same build for a greater period of time of course poses the danger that you become set in your ways. Other than a complete overhaul of professions or bar cores, I don't foresee many changes from the current build to a finished vetted build other than single skill changes such as minion choice, optional skill choice etc. The reason for submitting a build, however, is also to create some interest and discussion about beneficial changes. I'd like to open this section for specific skill change discussions. Any thoughts? Dzjudz 13:36, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Explosive Growth Rit
Cleaned up the Explosive Growth Rit a little. Not sure if I agree with it. If you need another minion master, there's still the third necro hero available (build uses only 2). Necro primary gets inherent energy management and 16 Death Magic for stronger skills. The only benefit of the rit primary is Explosive Growth, which is nice itself, but not armor ignoring. Maybe just add a link to Archive:Rt/N Explosive Growth Minion Bomber at variants instead? Dzjudz 19:55, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * 5-5 from me. If only all of the people made build pages like you did, the PvX would be more beautiful :D -- God Focused Anger.jpg Kamil  20:25, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Things I would change
Get rid of the E/Mo Prot. It's absolutely unnecessary, heroes don't use ER well, and you contribute zero damage to the team. If you're dead set on having a full prot character, run an IV prot. Ravenous gaze is terrible and that's putting it nicely. Angorodon's is not necessary for energy management on that bar and the blood spec hurts your energy management far more than angorodon's helps it. Go straight up IV or Xinrae's on the mainbar and get angorodon's out of there. Soldier's fury (while a truly excellent skill) isn't really necessary in this build. I'd make the elite an optional between empathic, incoming, and UA. The para rez signet is terrible b/c it takes far too long to cast. If you insist on having a rez on you para make it We shall Return or UA. AoTL is not nearly as good as it seems since you should constantly be shitrolling mobs for minions. Fiends are shit, minions are supposed to ve a wall, not in your backline. Run a standard prot minion bomber and make the elite an optional between jagged, aotl, and IV. The two mesmers are pretty solid. I'd mainbar flesh on the SoS rit and remove the resto optionals, but that's just me. Get rid of those shitty optional rit bars, they're pretty bad and completely unnecessary. Make those changes and this is a good build.--TahiriVeila 20:39, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Finally some constructive criticism. ER Prot: I was thinking earlier of swapping out the ER Prot for something else, since you brought it up. Losing the ER Prot also loses Infuse as an uber spot-heal and I don't know if 2 spot heals in the entire team (and on one bar too) are enough to keep red bars up in the harder HM areas, especially with some aoe degen pressure (hero hex removal isn't the greatest). What would be a solution to that? IV doesn't really add that much damage in HM either and you sacrifice another hero's utility for additional prots too. Essentially, the choice is between Soul Reaping + Icy Veins and ER + Infuse Health + utility. The question is whether Icy Veins is worth that. Maybe a Curse/Prot necro with something like PoD and Enfeebling Blood instead? My solution to ER is just to micro ER+AoR the moment I aggro, the hero can spam all he wants after that, not too much trouble. Blood resto: I agree that Ravenous is pretty bad. The reasons I chose it over IV are that it does more damage, it costs negligible energy and it heals the caster. It is a bit conditional on having to cluster foes a bit though. The energy loss from Soul Reaping is just 6 energy / 15 seconds (worst case scenario, probably even less of a loss on average), while you would lose 9 energy per cast of Icy Veins compared to Ravenous Gaze. So compared to IV it's actually beneficial to your energy (and damage probably). Angorodon's is just there for synergy with Foul Feast and some damage (life stealing). Usually you'd replace it with Signet of Lost Souls, but I figured Angorodon's gives more utility. Para: A point I fully agree with is the para. It seems there are only 2 adrenaline skills on the para anyway (not counting the optional Hexbreaker which is sub-optimal anyway). Leaving the elite and res optional seems perfectly reasonable to me. MM: AotL vs Jagged is an old debate. Jagged gives 2 minions a minute, AotL gives 1 minion every 45 sec and boosts DM. It's a trade-off that can be argued either way. A possible solution is to leave the elite slot optional with AotL and Jagged as options (I see IV as less useful, at least in HM). The Fiends have been brought up earlier on the talk page and can probably be substituted with Minions on the main bar. Depending on whether you really want to replace the ER Prot you can stick prots on the MM. Optional heroes: The optional bars were in the first place bars that could replace hero builds that the player took (had an ESurge build for Panic players and ST build for SoS players). The Explosive Growth rit isn't very good I agree. The optional bars can probably be removed altogether and players can pick any meta single hero build to replace the hero they play themselves. Thanks for your insights, I will implement a few suggestions right away. Others might have to be discussed a little further I think. Dzjudz 22:02, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * tl;dr-- Relyk  talk  23:06, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * IV is pretty solid damage on the prot bar. Necros will spam it on pinged targets and you end up with quite a fair amount of AoE damage--TahiriVeila 01:21, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Yea, I found that the ER prot just doesn't really manage energy all that well and I'm much too lazy to micro ER. I've been running a curses prot nec with this bar
 * I like PoD 'cause this build lacks pretty much any enchant removal, which can be useful in some places. Infuse Health probably isn't the best skill ever, but I like the heal spike. I know that an IV prot nec could work but I've never been a fan of IV as an elite in HM. Again, this build lacks enchant removal the way it is now, which isn't really that important in PvE but it helps.--75.53.84.159 06:55, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Testing the ER Prot replacements at the moment. Just cleared Vloxen Excavations HM without Save Yourselves or Frozen Soil with this team-build, using the PoD protter and only 2 heals in the entire team (forgot to improve the para). 20 min 2nd level, 10 min 3rd level (stupidly went for the trap lever in the north-west), only deaths (no wipe) I took were at Bellok's group because I just rushed in with my team. Not sure if the 2 heals are enough for the harder (elite) HM areas, most likely not. P.S. of course no cons, summons or DP removal used. Dzjudz 13:29, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Optional Heroes
Can someone add what the optional heroes should replace? what if someone replaces some vital hero? that would just ruin their vote towards the build... just saying I Luv Cheetos 21:50, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, like I just said in the previous section I had originally created a couple of optional builds that could replace heroes if players took those builds themselves. I will just remove them and players can pick meta builds to replace builds they play themselves. Dzjudz 22:04, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

New team with Prot Necro
Alright, after some further testing, the conclusion is that the ER Prot can be replaced for general use. A PoD Prot necro is useful for enchantment removal with armor ignoring damage and bar compression with the curses utility skills (enfeebling blood etc). For the more 'extreme' areas I have added the ER Prot as a Variant. If you need additional healing (not unthinkable with only 2 spot heals on the team) I would recommend using the SoS rit restoration optionals (especially MBaS and Spirit Light). Removed the 4 sec res optional from the only main healer. Also streamlined a few optionals with these changes (such as removing curse optionals from other bars etc). I have removed the orders and melee variants. Those would be suited better in a more specialised physical support team with additional physical heroes. I think there are a couple of those in testing. Dzjudz 15:55, 24 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually see some room for bar compression. The current SoS bar has resto as optionals. If you move the MBaS, Spirit Light and PwK from the resto necro to the SoS rit, what is left on the resto necro? A very mediocre elite choice, a couple of energy management skills and Weapon of Warding. In other words, if you mainbar resto on the SoS you can take out the resto necro and replace it with something more useful. Any suggestions? I tried Vloxen Excavations HM again using this team, this time 0 deaths in the entire dungeon, 16 min level 2 and 6 min level 3, but I'm sure the ST rit hero isn't optimal (Spirit's Gift was some kind of useful though, it heals spirits as well). The SoS resto never ran out of energy, Xandra didn't even have a weapon equipped lol (mostly held PwK so didn't really matter). Removed Aggressive Refrain from the para hero, it's pretty useless anyway with only low adrenaline skills and no orders in the team. P.S. Excuse the player bar, I just needed to bring something that wasn't already in the team. Dzjudz 02:33, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Noted this option at variants, probably not worthy to mainbar (people might overwhelm themselves, it's more a variant for more experienced players or easier areas). Maybe removal of Aggressive Refrain would be beneficial though. Dzjudz 22:17, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Is it just me or is this lacking some damage? I did vanquish one of the tyria areas /no deaths (no wipes with my pervious team builds either) but I felt like it was taking ages to kill enemies. Kamis 17:48, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't know. What did you bring on your player bar. And did you use the standard team or a variant with resto SoS and an extra damage hero instead of the Resto Necro? Dzjudz 19:20, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Think it was standard. I brought SoGM + some ghosts and pve skills as far as I remember. Random build really. Kamis 23:02, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Some notes
Rolled through all of EotN HM using a build very similar to this, so figured I'd add my input based on my experiences. Nothing really new, just my take on what's best. This was as an Assassin player character. Only parts that weren't easymode were due to heroes not understanding environmental hazards. No micro except for Strength of Honor (obviously).


 * Heroes use Barbs and MoP well with minions.
 * Shared Burden is more useful than Ineptitude in HM, and Heroes manage energy better with it. Lose a bit of damage, but the much larger AoE/duration/stronger effect make up for it.
 * SoLS is a wasted slot on an MM-any time they are casting enough to run low on energy, that means there's deaths triggering SR anyway.
 * Guilt is awesome on the Panic bar-better energy, stronger effect, and used more intelligently than WnWn. I also put my dom at 15 on the Panic, seeing that there's a breakpoint there for panic and Guilt, and 35 health isn't a big deal.
 * I would not recommend keeping either Wastrel skill in the variants-they seem to spam them with complete disregard to how effective it will be, and drain their energy rapidly.
 * The only issue I've experienced with ER prot spammers is that they use infuse poorly-such as using it on minions, then causing all other healers to focus on the suddenly half health EMo, rather than whoever is actually taking damage. If you just give them a pure prot bar, they're great with it, reliably spamming heavy prots on whoever needs them.  And they cast ER on recharge-no idea how anyone is seeing energy problems unless it gets stripped-I monitor my heroes' energy, and adjust builds if there's problems, and only ever saw the EMo run low on the rare occasions when ER was removed/interrupted.

This is the version I used. Dropped the AotL for an RoJ, changed smite>prot on the PoD if no corpses/lots of undead. Not sure how applicable my experiences are to other classes, especially casters, but this is the version I found most efficient. As a side note, I'll have to try the Paragon bar sometime-the one flaw that I agree with about the EMo is that it adds no damage, and I didn't think to try a Paragon instead. Would at least be a good excuse to watch Keiran yell Gurren Lagann quotes at PvE ^^  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  17:06, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
 * You should have gole on the panic mes since you're not running anything secondary on the bar. emos are bad for anything except doa and high-end dungeons simply because you don't need such dedicated defense. At that point, you would be using save yourselves anyways.-- Relyk  talk  17:55, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The energy management skills on that bar all have a useful secondary effect, which is why I have them instead of GoLE. And high end dungeons is sort of the point...I did say this was the version I cleared all of HM EotN with.  What did you think I was talking about, the story quests?  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  18:22, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Clarification: you don't really need an EMo most places, even in the EotN dungeons, but it's safe and effective, and means you don't have to know anything about an area before clearing it. Just cspace until everything dies, and let the heroes deal with enemy builds and overaggro.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  19:03, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Since this is a talk page, I'm assuming you posted the build as a suggestion. You don't need an emo to cspace everything to death, that's what sy (and panic) is for. imo, the emo is just a build to cover up actual skill if you don't need power prots and redbarring to survive. That said, the paragon should be optional for either an emo or para at the player's discretion because emo does power prots and redbarring. Ineptitude more useful in general, shared burden is a variant for a more defensive build (shared burden is <3).-- Relyk  talk  20:32, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah-I'd seen some comments further up the page about EMos not being effective, and figured I'd share my experiences on them. Because daggerspam+buffs pretty much lols through PvE, I prefer to run highly defensive builds.  Any time I have another player along, the EMo is the hero I drop.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  16:14, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

The 2/4 heroes to remove?
I never been stumped on this question ever until Zaishen VQ today. Before I saw this build, I always used DMS, which didn't bring a whole lot of difficulty in deciding who to bring for 4/6 man. --173.66.203.20 22:15, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
 * In 4 man areas, you take the MM, the SoS rit and the resto nec. - spec prot for the necro optionals with Aegis and Prot spirit.
 * In 6 man areas, you drop the Panic and the Paragon. (I run psychic instability instead of ineptitude) -- [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] Chieftain  Alex  22:20, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
 * In 4-man, I'd take the PoD prot (variant elite if no enchanted enemies), the MM and the SoS resto variant (maybe in some areas you'd need the dedicated resto necro, in that case I would do what Alex said). In 6-man, I'd probably drop the para and the resto necro and spec into resto on the SoS again. In general I spec the SoS for resto and drop the resto necro for an ST rit like it says in the Variants section. Dzjudz 22:51, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

How would you do this for the new build? --50.46.145.167 07:18, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * In 4-man, I'd take the PoD, MM and SoS. 2 main things to consider: enchantment usage by enemies, if there's not (much) then switch elites on the PoD (this should always be considered anyway, not just in 4-man areas); if not needing that much healing, switch the resto skills on the SoS for other utility (e.g. smite support when you are physical). In 6-man, I'd drop the para and smite. Depending on enemy group size (usually smaller in earlier areas), I'd switch Panic to Energy Surge. Dzjudz sig.pngtalk 11:18, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * SoS/MM/Illusion is another good 4 man team. Depending on what you're fighting, might want to switch the Mesmer's elite to Shared Burden or PI.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  11:38, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Who to remove for NF?
I was thinking the Support Paragon. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 173.66.203.20 (talk • contribs) 22:08, 11 April 2011.
 * Probably the Paragon. You could probably do just fine minus any one of the Necro heroes too, as long as your replacement has a half decent build.  I'd always keep the Mesmers and Rit though.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  07:49, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

PoD revamp?
I decided to use ST rit but anyone can figure that the Minion Master is dead weight. But with Protting on the PoD, he is also dead weight. But his PoD still makes him useful as an enchant removal. What should I do? --173.66.203.20 07:11, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
 * After doing dozens of vanquishes/dungeons with this build, I'm going to rewrite the build some. I'll make the SoS rit resto, remove the resto necro and add an ST rit. And then fill a few of the many optionals to mainbar some more skills. I don't know if the MM is dead weight though. Minions soak up a lot of aggro/damage and as one hero the MM does quite some damage through minions and Putrid Bile/Death Nova. The PoD prot is essentially a replacement for an ER Prot, but with added utility of PoD and curses like Enfeebling Blood and Mark of Pain. I'll make these changes in my sandbox first though and link it here so it's open for comments (as I know some people don't like a significant overhaul of vetted builds without warning :)). I'd like to hear your suggestions though. Dzjudz sig.pngtalk 12:18, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I haven't used a ST rit at all but...isn't it common knowledge that MM and ST rit don't work together? --173.66.203.20 17:16, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Shelter triggers on minions taking damage, yes. This keeps your meat shield alive longer. Shelter dying fast doesn't matter since you have ST, so Shelter can be recast again immediately if Shelter is the only self-destroying spirit you have (Union is meh and Displacement is mostly unnecessary). Just use Shelter and a couple of offensive spirits and the hero will have no problem maintaining Shelter. Dzjudz sig.pngtalk 18:16, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The problem is that Heroes don't understand that Shelter's cost/recharge sucks when ST is down, and ST only lasts 3 uses. They'll just recast the spirit without waiting for ST to get back up, and Shelter only lasts about a second with minions around.  If you really want the ST, replace the MM with it.  Or an RoJ or ER Prot or something.  And if you want to replace the PoD but keep enchantment removals, just toss Drain Enchantment on one or both of the Mesmer bars.  Or Rend, if you really need the stack removal.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  21:44, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
 * If it was up to me where I add ST hero, I would remove the Inepititude hero + revamping everything else to add more damage. ST hero shuts down melee just as well as inepititude hero does except with less damage but more partywide protection. That is just my two cents. --173.66.203.20 13:12, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The problem with that is you'd still be losing significant damage, no matter what you changed around. The Illusion hero provides massive AoE armor ignoring damage.  If you are in an area where you need extra defense, change the elite to Shared Burden.  If you really want to take an ST, drop the MM, because they have the exact opposite of synergy.  However, since enemies tend to focus fire, I prefer an ER Prot to an ST.  Stronger protection for the actual target, and hero reflexes mean they're excellent with PS/SB.  Also lets you keep the MM as long as you don't take Infuse on the ER, and you can just drop the Paragon instead.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  19:50, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Consolidation and overhaul
Like I said in the previous section, I'm rewriting the build a bit in my Sandbox. I am consolidating notes and comments from this talk page and (hopefully) improving the build. After removing the resto necro, I tried to add the ST rit like I said above, but making a properly functioning build for a hero without going into Channeling hero territory (splinter weapon, spirit siphon) proved difficult. Tried a couple of varieties in-game, but found it didn't work as well as I'd hoped. So I changed it to a Smiting hero. I main-barred several skills and removed some optionals for a tighter, cleaner build, while still listing variant possibilities. Anyway, you can compare the current and proposed team compositions there. talk 02:07, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Current suggestion:
 * With SoGM as a variant. Dzjudz sig.pngtalk 23:47, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Slight update. Dzjudz sig.pngtalk 15:30, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
 * With SoGM as a variant. Dzjudz sig.pngtalk 23:47, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Slight update. Dzjudz sig.pngtalk 15:30, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
 * With SoGM as a variant. Dzjudz sig.pngtalk 23:47, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Slight update. Dzjudz sig.pngtalk 15:30, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
 * With SoGM as a variant. Dzjudz sig.pngtalk 23:47, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Slight update. Dzjudz sig.pngtalk 15:30, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
 * With SoGM as a variant. Dzjudz sig.pngtalk 23:47, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Slight update. Dzjudz sig.pngtalk 15:30, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Things I would change


Razor

Not a big fan of the paragon hero, you can easily ditch its command skills on a caster. Splinter Weapon is also to good to ignore, I always take at least 2 copies of it with me.
 * IV is pretty bad in HM, and the FF/AG combo really isn't that great with 2 copies of MBaS and lots of spirits. In my experience, heroes tend to be good at removing conditions quickly, so it's kind of a waste to use 2 skills on an unreliable combo that's worse for energy than SoLS.  That's even ignoring the fact that you have TWO copies of FF, so the chance of wasted skills is even higher.  Also, your Panic hero is going to run out of energy pretty much instantly with WD, and Phantom Pain is a wasted slot on the Illusion.  And one last thing-I personally don't like SoGM heroes much, but if you're bringing one, wouldn't it be a good idea to put Painful Bond on the SoS?  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  20:06, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The Command Para seems to work really well with the Communing rit. Also, Coward! / For Great Justice seems to work really well on the para as an elite / optional.  I'm running SoJ / YMLAD, and pretty much I just dominate the boss or primary target, and the command para gets some key KD's on moving melee attackers.  Tried this and did OK vanquishing a few areas on each continent.

Good points, you're right. IV isn't great but there ain't that much worth taking as a resto elite anyway, I could change it for 9+1 blood magic and Ravenous Gaze, but I don't know if it deals significant more damage.. I suppose I could take Painful Bond on the SoS in stead of FoMF and replace WD with FoMF on the Panic, that would solve that problem. One FF has to go indeed, I guess changing the FF of the curse necro with another curse skill would be the best way to go :) Razor
 * I really really like 2x fall back for general PvE. It probably speeds up the game more than anything else. If you're dropping the paragon, what is the point of running an additional splinter? Caster spears and minions? I don't know if you have kept track of how often a hero casts splinter weapon on a caster spear hero, but it's not often enough to warrant another copy. Other comments have been said by Dejh. If you look in the previous section on build overhaul, there is a link to my sandbox with an overhaul suggestion. Personally, I went with a Smite monk over a SoGM rit, just because I despise SoGM heroes (terrible AI, energy management, spirit mobility, build utility), but I did leave it in the variants for those so disposed. Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 22:21, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
 * If the player is a melee user, 2x splinter is justified since they basically use up a splinter in one aoe attack (or the rapid dagger-spam attacks). -- <font face="Courier New" color="Black">Toraen <font face="Courier New" color="DarkGoldenrod">TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png|link=User:Toraen]] 22:31, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
 * That is true. Do consider how often you need Splinter to trigger in a single mob (e.g. consider the damage of 5 hits of Splinter + Death Blossom AoE and figure if you need an additional Splinter within 5 seconds). Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 22:42, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think this version was intended for melee, because there's no SoH. Also, for resto elites, the elite weapon spells aren't bad.  I usually bring Xinrae's, but WoR and SLW are decent too.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  23:01, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

putting prots on the curses necro instead of the mm is pretty retarded-- Relyk  talk  23:13, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't call it retarded but having the prots on the MM gives you the benefit of optimising the 20% Enchant mod on your staff. I just don't see how the maker can hate a SoGM hero... The armor ignoring damage from the spirits, combined with the pressure they take off the team is incredible, it's superior to a paragon hero.Razor
 * How so? The curser has lots of time and energy to cast prots while the MM has to spend time and energy on casting minions and death nova (long cast times), with the additional problem of Death Nova priority over prot on a low health target. Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 23:25, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
 * it better on the mm since he plays a passive role. The curses necro can bring anything from heals to support. you can't run that on the MM as effectively since it will be lower spec and the MM is burning resources on minions.-- Relyk  talk  00:06, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Referring to the suggestion in the above (overhaul) section, a curser with PoD, Enfeebling and MoP will have 3-5 1 sec casts in 15-20 seconds, passive enough to leave plenty of time and energy to prot like a boss. The MM, as you rightly say, is burning resources (both time and energy) on minions, while usually also have fewer open slots. I'd say, add a couple of resto heals to the MM as an (emergency) backup heal. They cost less energy and are not as crucial as prots since there are heals somewhere else too. The slightly lower spec is the trade-off, yes, but resto heals are powerful anyway. Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 00:18, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
 * So you're agreeing that it's better to put heals on the curses necro rather than the MM?-- Relyk  talk  00:37, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
 * How did you get that from my reply at all? The question was: prots on the curser or on the MM? To which I said curser with the above arguments. After that I said the MM could then have room to add a couple of heals (arguments: cheaper costs, no crucial role). All I agreed with was that the MM burns precious resources on minions, and used that as a precursor for the previous arguments. Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 00:42, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
 * You said the MM would have lower spec than the necro as a trade-off. That means 10 points rather than 12 points. You must be assuming prots cost a lot of energy and time, because they don't. Putting heals on the hero (or any support) costs significantly more energy and takes time in comparison. The MM can't afford to summon minions and effectively use other skills at the same time. When you put optionals on the MM and prots on the curses necro, you're demanding that the MM can provide the same support the curses necro otherwise could, which it can't. The main point being you'd get a lower spec and the curses necro is much more efficient, for example, at using heals.-- Relyk  talk  06:52, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
 * In the end, the curser is more efficient at its secondary job than the MM at the same job, this is a given. Prots are IMO the most important support in the whole team (I'm usually not running SY spam), so my opinion is that the curser should prot (more energy, more time, more slots, no chance of priority of Death Nova over a prot are the four main advantages). Then all you have to ask is what you want the MM to do instead. 10 resto vs 12 resto for 2 heals isn't that much, keeping in mind that the MM isn't the main healer anyway, more of a backup healer. Because the (more) prots are on a better suited hero, the heals have to be spammed less anyway. Of course, the MM doesn't even have to bring heals, he can just bring Command or Channeling instead; both of these only need 2 or max 3 slots as well and are usually run as a secondary with 9-10 spec. Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 12:16, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
 * You micro prot spirit, heroes don't actively use prots. And you could care less about the hero using death nova or any skills. You need the prots at the start of battle when you're pulling, the MM won't be doing anything at the start. The MM has more than enough energy for prots, he's a necromancer. Why are you talking about optionals? it's not a reason for the curses necro is better since you only need 3 slots max. the best thing about heals on the curses necro is he acts as one of the primary healers, since he can actively use heals. The 2 points are important for breakpoints in life, rejuvenation, weapon of warding, and stronger heals. You can run prots just as effectively on the MM as the curses necro, you've given no reasons why running anything else on the MM is better than running them on the curses necro.-- Relyk  talk  19:57, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Probably the last reply on this topic because I have the feeling I won't convince you anyway. Just wanted to point out some reading comprehension. "you've given no reasons why running anything else on the MM is better than running them on the curses": firstly, missing the point of the conversation again (which is what the better hero is to put prots on), secondly, the first line of my previous reply already was that it's a given that the curser is more efficient at its secondary job than the MM at the same job. "You micro prot spirit": not really, and I don't think micro should be the basis of a hero build (you might as well make a glyph of swiftness ER build and say you have to micro it. It's tedious and a build should work on it's own). "you could care less about the hero using death nova or any skills." I could care less indeed. In fact, I care. Without micro, the hero needs to not be conflicted which skill to use. I'm a little confused as to why you want an active healer but not an active protter. "Why are you talking about optionals?" I'm talking about optionals only because the additional heals (focus point: additional. There is already another healer in the team, but not another protter) aren't even always needed. "The MM has more than enough energy for prots, he's a necromancer." & "You can run prots just as effectively on the MM as the curses necro". That is the question. Just because he's a necro doesn't mean he's invulnerable to energy problems. 11 SR (9 + 2 from Maso) is 33 energy max (if not wasting energy due to energy cap) every 15 sec. It is amazing energy that on the other hand is already spent with 2 animate bone minions (especially because you get energy from a death; usually that means a corpse so the hero will immediately spend that gained energy (and more) by making minions). The curser has a little higher Soul Reaping (though the risk of hitting the energy cap remains) and can more actively prot without the major time and energy sinks and with an additional slot for something like Spirit Bond. The curser is better at healing than the MM. The curser is also better at protting than the MM. I just think it's more important to prot well than to heal well, because there is an additional healer, but not an additional protter. In short: if there is another healer in the team, good prot + average heal > average prot + good heal. I hope this explains most of it, although it will probably not convince you. Hopefully I won't get a tl;dr again, like above, cheers. Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 20:40, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
 * You nitpick what I say and then make weak arguments for why they are wrong while misunderstanding the actual discussion vehemently. I must conclude that your mind was already made up before this argument started and continuing it would be meaningless. I bid you good day.-- Relyk  talk  02:11, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
 * It does seem neither one of us is going to accept the other's point of view on this matter. Not the end of the world though. Others can see the discussion and arguments from both sides and make up their own minds regarding the question: "which hero can prot better, the Curser or the MM?" and then switch their builds accordingly. I didn't mean to nitpick as much as reply to all your statements but I can see how it looks from your side. Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 02:38, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
 * There are a whole lot of things I could pick apart in your arguments, but I'll just mention a few. First off, and as has been mentioned several times here, prots do NOT take a lot of resources to use, especially not time. Second off, prot is far, far more powerful in a secondary role than healing in a secondary role. Healing is barely useful at all unless you've got 12-14 points in it and the build's primary resources dedicated to it. Third, you already should have some manner of damage mitigation in your team, through things like "Stand Your Ground"/"SY", Enfeebling Blood, spirits, minions, etc. Because of this, (monk) prots in general aren't as essential as people think they are, besides Prot Spirit for bosses and other rediculous monsters. There's a very good reason why you never see prot monks in PvE anymore: it's simply not worth a dedicated role. However, N/Rt healers, which are often full resto, are seen more than any other healer in PvE. Basically, putting two minor roles on a single character is never good, and that's just what you'd be doing with curses+prot. Two characters, each with a major and minor role, will always work out better. -- Jai . -  04:02, April 24 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree, besides prots aren't that important in the teambuild. They help but there is plenty of damage mitigation in the form of minions, spirits, stand your ground, enfeebling blood and of course the excellent healing. You're much better of by putting the prots on the MM and having the curse necro open to optionals, I've illustrated this by making a small edit the my proposed version, with channeling as the secondary attribute on the curse necro. One could also put Splinter Weapon on the SoS, by putting the FoMF on one of the Mesmers, so you can truly take any optionals you want on the curse necro, for instance: smite, heaping prayers, more curses, command or even blood magic (if you're a melee yourself) You really don't need a dedicated protter necro, paragon or smiter monk if you can easily implement those in a secondary profession of one of the necro's Razor
 * EDIT: I see you modified your proposed version with a MM/Resto, another idea that popped into my mind is merging the Resto and the PoD necro and giving it 12 resto, 8+1 soul reaping and 10+1+1 curses. Now if you insist on keeping the paragon, the teambuild would look like this:



SoGM
The next thing I can see coming that people will want to change, and to which I will probably be the only opposing party again, is mainbar SoGM. From my point of view why SoGM is bad: - general AI with regards to spirits - all the SoGM is doing is casting a spirit, then waiting for energy to regen, then cast another spirit - addition to the previous point: no utility at all (no room or energy for it), hero is just wasting his time with energy regen - SoGM needs micro to work properly (hero will happily cast one spirit, then SoGM, then other spirits) - no mobility at all (no Summon Spirits), coupled with duration/recharge times (see Dissonance for example) I concede the pros of spirit wall for aggro/damage mitigation and major damage. The damage depends on spirit uptime and hero AI though. I would say SoGM is great on a player (yay for Summon Spirits), but below average on a hero. The great thing about SoS is that it avoids almost all of these problems. Soul Twisting also avoids the problems, although you can use fewer spirits with it. I get the feeling that most pvx'ers like hero SoGM's though. In theory it has great numbers. In practice, not so much. <font color="#47d1de">talk 15:52, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm glad to see you took over my PoD Resto suggestion! I think the SoGM worked quite well in spiritway, it provides great support in the form of a spirit wall, armor ignoring damage and conditions. I don't see the benefit of alternatives, like the smite monk, compared to it. Hate it or love it, you should include it as an optional though! :) Razor
 * Removing the dedicated resto was a plan for a while now already (see New Team with Prot Necro section above), it is indeed a good bar compression. I have included SoGM in the variants already as well. Oh, I also made a note on your IP's talk page. You should sign with four tildes (like this: ~ ). If you want to sign with a certain name, you should register it, instead of link to a userpage that you have not registered. Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 16:18, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Yeah but putting the prots on the curser and the resto skills on the MM does't work, as already pointed out. Sry I overlooked SoGM as an optional, I see it now together with the ST rit! :) thanks for helping with the user page and signing! :) Razor 17:16, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The primary use of sogm is for pulling groups and having spirits train stuff to death, otherwise you shouldn't care if the hero is using sogm effectively. A sogm rit and soul twisting rit are completely different builds. You don't use protective spirits on the same bar as SoGM unless you have a very good reason, you lose damage that way.-- Relyk  talk  07:30, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * You can, however, use an SoGM bar and just bring ST as the elite. Fixes the energy/mobility/recharge problems, and doesn't reduce the damage all that much because heroes don't understand how SoGM works anyway.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  08:02, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Hero manage energy fine with just boon unless you bring dissonance.-- Relyk  talk  08:08, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * That was the least important part of that post, but ok. The main problem is that hero AI for SoGM seems to check whether there are spirits in range that would be affected, and cast if any are.  Which means after they cast their first spirit most of the time, and it adds barely any damage.  Any second cast won't be very helpful because fights shouldn't be lasting much over 15 seconds anyway.  It's more helpful to take ST and be able to pump out offensive spirits whenever you want.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  08:56, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * SoGM does the job, the communing rit is supposed to be just a lame stupid spirits casting hero anyway, and that's exactly what he does. One could replace SoGM with ST if there isn't much time between battles, like in missions or stuff, but in general PvE areas Boon is about all the energy management you will ever need. In my experience SoS always tend to be up before the communing rit casts SoGM so at least they benefit greatly from it. I would like to adress to the main point, should there be a SoGM in the first place? Let me counter the RoJ monk, there is no need for additional hex, and especially, condition removal, additional prots and RoJ scatters like hell in HM, therefore the SoGM rit is a more viable option imo. If you require more healing you're better of by bringing the 3th necro back and making it a channeling/resto hybrid to provide additional healing and damage. Razor 10:46, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Just a note: SoGM only affects spirits owned by the SoGM hero, not SoS etc from others. Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 11:07, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * ^This. Spiritwall is fine, but you'd be better off taking ST instead of SoGM.  As for the RoJ, the extra heals and damage are just a nice addition more than anything, and it's helpful to have a hero with high smiting already if you happen to be a melee player.  If you think scatter from RoJ is more of a problem than the damage it will deal, you can bring Empathic Removal or something instead.  And for other replacement damage, I'm sure there's something that would hit harder if you don't want the smiting.  I saw a Wastrel's Worry/Demise spammer fueled by ER somewhere that looked like it would provide some good armor ignoring AoE in combination with a Panic.  I forget where I saw it, and I don't really have time to test it myself, but it seems like a good place to start if you want more options.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  11:32, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * before aria changed it :) and roj monk is a whole different topic-- Relyk  talk  11:41, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, was thinking of using either the third necro (couldn't really think of particularly useful roles) or an ER Wastrel spammer (had a version in my Sandbox, old version, you could probably add Mistrust / Overload). The smiter is alright though. It's a popular tried and tested build with nice damage and great support and the 16 smite is always handy if you're playing physical. The scatter shouldn't be that much of a problem. Smite Condition is a bit superfluous though. Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 12:17, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Again, sogm is for training enemies after pulling, which is for high-end areas. In general, the elite is interchangeable with ST or any other elite for VQing and such since it isn't a big deal what you use. Battles are spaced out enough so spirits are always up, otherwise you only need to micro hero to avoid casting spirits needlessly. Using ST for the sake of convenience isn't really worth the loss of extra damage.-- Relyk  talk  11:41, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Aah. I play melee, so I favor just walking into mobs and aiming for the middle over pulling, which is why I never saw SoGM doing much when I tried it out.  Even in Slaver's, fights were over quick enough that I never saw it do much more than add 10 damage a hit to whichever spirit was cast first.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  11:51, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * For high-end areas you probably want more defense anyway (usually ER Prot or ST Shelter), so you're already going into variants then. Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 12:11, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I play warrior, you can tell the difference with and without sogm if you watch which enemies the spirits attack if you pay attention...-- Relyk  talk  19:59, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Try watching the skill order some time.  From what I saw, in 90% of fights, the cast order for an SoGM is: Random spirit>SoGM>All the other spirits.  Adding 10 damage a hit and 33% attack speed to a single spirit is not worth an elite slot.  Only times SoGM was maintained with any consistency were in longer fights without much movement.  Not exactly common in PvE.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  21:05, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Either way, spirit spam of any kind will be superior to just about anything else you might put there in terms of raw DPS and damage mitigation. Smiters are decent, but if you were to compare the numbers, spirit spam would be doing a lot more even with sub-optimal usage. -- Jai . -  22:47, April 25 2011 (UTC)
 * Not saying that spirit spam is bad, just that SoGM as the elite is overrated due to stupid AI. Smite will probably be behind in raw damage, but they've got a bit of healing/hex/condition removal as well, so it sort of balances out.  It is nice that the smite damage is AoE though.  IMO, should note that melee players should bring the smiter, and to bring whatever you want as a caster.  Regardless of what you think of smiting, SoH is just too good to pass up.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  23:37, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * You're also forgetting that spirit spam will mitigate a lot of damage by providing meat shields as well as faster kills (dead stuff can't hurt you). Condition removal is already covered by MBaS, and there are a couple of spots to put hex removal if needed (Convert on the MM, Empathic/Expel on the para, and so on). If you're running a melee, there's generally better hero setups to bring than this one. This is more of a caster build. Yes, SoH is godly and I never run without it on my 'Sin or Derv, but I also would run a different build overall than this one (more curses, maybe orders, 2-3 Splinter Weapons, etc.). -- Jai . -  00:37, April 26 2011 (UTC)
 * Smiting is AoE, so it's damage relative to Spirits depends on how many enemies there are. RoJ may not be very big, but Smite Hex and Condition have Area AoE, so they tend to hit pretty much everything.  MBaS clears stacks of conditions effortlessly, but there's usually still enough single conditions on random targets to fuel Smite Condition.  And this build works just fine with melee-I've been easily clearing all of HM with it on my Assassin.  Orders are a waste of a position unless you have lots of phys damage, which would be kind of pointless in a hero build.  1 Splinter was fine, but I used the Para as optional, so I was the only physical half the time.  Not sure what Curses besides Barbs would really add to melee.  Also, skills like Shatter Hex and Smite Hex/Condition are significantly more effective with a melee player.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  01:32, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Even if damage is comparable, spirits do provide more utility than smiters. Besides MMs, there isn't really anything that can provide as much defensive utility as spirits. The only time I would think about bringing a smite is in a melee team, because SoH alone usually adds around 40 DPS. As for a melee build, I didn't actually specifically mention Orders, tbh. Yes, 1 Splinter is "fine", but two or three makes everything literally explode. For a melee, you want Barbs, MoP, 2-3 Splinter, SoH, and a slightly less defensive setup in general if you're running SY. You could most definitely run a melee with this build and do fine, but you can have a faster (and more fun) build if you build specifically around the melee. -- Jai . -  02:10, April 26 2011 (UTC)
 * By spirit utility you are talking about blind from Shadowsong and enchantment removal from Disenchantment? I'd hardly call that more utility than smiters, especially because they keep attacking the same target (now if Shadowsong blinded all foes and Disenchantment specifically targeted enchanted foes it would be a different story). Aggro and damage mitigation of spirits is handy, although this targeting by enemies kills them and dampens their damage output as well (especially with their recharges if not running ST). Yes, spirits are great if you flag your heroes somewhere and pull all groups to them, preferably several groups to the same spot. They are much less awesome if you keep on the move. Anyway, it's still a viable variant. Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 02:26, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
 * By defensive utility, I mean the fact that they act as meatshields and absorb a huge amount of damage that would otherwise be directed toward players. Sure, when one dies you lose that damage, but it also means it's a passive effect that is taking pressure off of you and the other heroes, which means you can focus on damage. I mean, solo farming with spirits works great, and that same strategy can apply to full teams as well (albeit not quite as efficiently). The advantage of spirits is the same as that of minions: You create meatshields that keep the monsters occupied while you nuke the shit out of them. -- Jai . -  03:02, April 26 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh, and four extra spirits means an additional 100 damage with every use of Anthem of Envy. -- Jai . -  12:24, April 26 2011 (UTC)
 * You already have 4 decently spammable spirits from SoS, and up to 11 minions which are constantly refreshed. You shouldn't really be lacking meatshields.  The more you add, the less enemies will be attacking the minions.  The boost to Anthem of Envy is a good point though.  And for melee builds, you did specifically mention orders, so not sure why you brought that up.  MoP is already on the main bar, and Barbs easily fits in.  And I was running the build since before it was posted-I designed one specifically for melee so I could clear the EoTN dungeons quickly, and this worked best.  I was planning to post it, but this version was up first, and mine was not significantly different to justify a new page.  Just because a build works for casters doesn't mean it isn't effective on melee.  And defensive setups work great for melee-since daggerspam pumps out so much damage, you don't need to worry about the offensive strength of heroes.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  16:14, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll correct myself: I said "maybe orders" meaning if there wasn't anything better around, that orders might be worth a spot. This is more along the lines of something I would see as being melee-centric. Yes, the builds are somewhat similar, but mine has Barbs, SoH, and two Splinters mainbarred, and more room for hex/condition removal, which is very important since melees are relatively easy to shut down. For the caster build, I would take out the smite completely for another Rit (meaning more spirits), since Smite Hex/Condition aren't as needed and you'll get more damage and defense out of spirits. -- Jai . -  17:19, April 26 2011 (UTC)
 * You're doing it wrong. (fixed)-- Relyk  talk  07:55, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Relyk, you're apparently replying to my comment. wat? (fixed) -- Jai . -  12:24, April 26 2011 (UTC)

Updated version of Who to remove for
Who to remove for Nightfall? Who to remove for 4 man? Who to remove for 6 man? &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 173.66.203.20 (talk • contribs) 22:06, 25 April 2011.
 * Already covered in the previous The 2/4 heroes to remove? section. Why would you remove one for nightfall? There are 8-man parties there just like everywhere else. In anti shout areas you might consider dropping the para (or just take extra hex removal). Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 22:10, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Most missions require specific heroes in nightfall. -- <font face="Courier New" color="Black">Toraen <font face="Courier New" color="DarkGoldenrod">TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png|link=User:Toraen]] 00:42, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah of course, I had vanquishing in my mind :) Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 00:50, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Remove yourself and everyone wins! Honestly though, I would remove the Paragon for Nightfall. In 6-man, I would remove the monk and the Paragon, and in 4-man, I would run SoS, one of the necros+one of the mesms/both of necros/both of mesms (with resto skills). However, I'd much prefer to run Balanced in 4-man than this. Anvil God 00:56, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, for 4-man you're better off running something like the Spiritway, the "heroway balanced", or something similar. No point trying to gimp one of the 7-man builds when you've already got ones that are already 4-man. -- Jai . -  01:52, April 26 2011 (UTC)

For a 4 man build, the Heroway Balanced builds are very similar to three the builds listed here. You can change them over with a simple template change, because the equipment for 7HPS is fine for HB. HB's Protective Bomber is the same as 7HPS's Minion Bomber Prot Necro except that Jagged Bones is used instead of AotL, presumably because 4-man areas don't usually lack for corpses to exploit. HB's SoS Utility (Ritualist version) is similar to 7HPS's SoS Channeling Ritualist, just trading the last four slots for utilities from a choice of other classes, because SL and PwK are on the third hero. HB's Panic Resto trades 3 Domination AoEs for a condition removal and two heals, because you gotta cut something for heals. --50.46.145.167 23:32, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

For the 4 man areas, I am now using the Minion Bomber Prot Necro, the SoS Channeling Ritualist and the SoGM Razah, because that is precisely the 3 Hero Spritway build. I don't even need to switch out any skills, and it's very effective and safe. For six man areas, I drop the Illusion Mesmer and the 7th hero (Command Para/RoJ Smite Monk). For Nightfall missions that require a specific hero that I don't usually use (stupid Koss), I drop the SoGM Razah for 4 man, the Illusion Mesmer for 6 man and the 7th hero for 8 man. --Triplehammer 00:51, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Third mesmer
Time for 3 mesmers. <font color="#47d1de">talk 19:09, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Typed Ctrl + F and typed in Mesmer, Was disappointed that mesmer was not found. --173.66.203.20 20:36, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Razah can have his primary changed now. -- <font face="Courier New" color="Black">Toraen <font face="Courier New" color="DarkGoldenrod">TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png|link=User:Toraen]] 20:37, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah that's what I was referring to, sorry :). RoJ -> ESurge I guess :). Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 20:57, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Seems like a great idea! :) Moar damage and room for utility! Razor 21:43, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
 * With CoF the other mesmer could switch to ESurge as well for major AoE damage, Panic wouldn't really be needed any more.
 * Chaos Storm might scatter too much in HM, maybe optional for another Shatter Hex or Guilt. Anyone have specifics on how well heroes use Overload? Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 22:08, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Except a second Rit hero is going to be a lot more useful than a third mes hero. I'd take 2 rits and 2 mesmers over 1 rit and 3 mesmers any day of the week. Three mesmers would be great, but not if you're having to sacrifice one of the powerful heroes to get them. -- Jai . -  23:04, April 28 2011 (UTC)
 * We just need another rit hero from WoC, then we can use 2 necros, 2 rits and 3 mesmers. I really think Razah is more useful as ESurge than as SoGM. Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 23:11, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I believe the change has already been implemented. You can go ahead and revise the page, if you like. Aonsephonie 23:29, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'm still contemplating how to reconcile adding the third mesmer with losing either the para support or the smite support. Little tricky. Going to play with a couple of builds in my Sandbox first I think. Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 00:36, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Implemented the best solution I think. You can take Razah as both a Mesmer or a SoGM rit, the second option gives you smite support. If you want to take him as a mesmer but still want the smite support, the normal Smite Monk is added in the variants. Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 22:20, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
 * We just need another rit hero from WoC, then we can use 2 necros, 2 rits and 3 mesmers. I really think Razah is more useful as ESurge than as SoGM. Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 23:11, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I believe the change has already been implemented. You can go ahead and revise the page, if you like. Aonsephonie 23:29, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'm still contemplating how to reconcile adding the third mesmer with losing either the para support or the smite support. Little tricky. Going to play with a couple of builds in my Sandbox first I think. Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 00:36, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Implemented the best solution I think. You can take Razah as both a Mesmer or a SoGM rit, the second option gives you smite support. If you want to take him as a mesmer but still want the smite support, the normal Smite Monk is added in the variants. Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 22:20, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

why a paragon and no UA?
Why use the paragon hero? Currently, there are two resses (we shal return and renew life) and no ua. We shal return has high energy and long recharge. It would make sense to me to remove the paragon, replace the rit healer with a UA monk, and add another smite support monk (aoe dmg+healing). The paragon has no aoe damage (not taking into account MoP). Is the current build intended to micro MoP for the paragon? I'm not getting the overall usefulness of the paragon. Someone please explain. --81.164.95.17 22:06, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
 * You shouldn't need more than two resses really. You can switch WSR to Signet of Return, or you can even take UA as the elite on the para. The UA monk wouldn't add anything except the instant res tbh and you'd lose the Curse utility (and inherent energy management). The one RoJ in the build is already a point of contention, another wouldn't be needed. Instead we should probably add the third Mesmer (Razah, if they actually implement it). The para can spam GftE and Anthem of Envy, provides Deep Wound, offers superior Command for Fall Back and maintained Stand Your Ground. He's just a great support hero that can trigger MoP and Splinter Weapon a lot. Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 22:36, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
 * you can never have enough roj monks-- Relyk  talk  22:52, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
 * RoJ Heroway could use another RoJ :D (or even 2 more now that we can have 4 monk heroes). Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 22:54, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
 * gogo shared burden mes with heals for wandering eye spamming-- Relyk  talk  23:04, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
 * To emphasize what Dzjdz said above, two of the biggest assets of this build are large numbers of offensive spirits and minions. The paragon's anthems trigger on spirit attacks, and GFTE works on minions.  --50.46.145.167 23:43, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Modification for Duncan
One of the most frustrating things I ever ran into for soloing with my warrior was Duncan the Black. Maybe I'm no good but I couldn't do it with 7HPS without modifying the build. Finally found a build that worked for Normal Mode. Replace the minion bomber with a BHA Ranger (for Hard Mode I'll try putting Frozen Soil on it). I'm a warrior so I brought knockdown skills like Dwarven Headbutt; if not a warrior, bring a knockdown warrior hero or even just the Devona henchman. Razah went with this build: Boon of Creation, Soul Twisting, Displacement, Shelter, Union, Armor of Unfeeling, Dissonance and Restoration. All other heroes in the 7HPS build stayed the same. The extreme defense from the Soul Twisting build on Razah kept me alive and able to knock down Duncan when the rest of the group didn't interrupt Spirit Rift. Thought Dzjudz would like to see an unusual Rit build; Soul Twisting is interesting. --50.46.145.167 03:39, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay, not that unusual, lol! Hadn't heard of Spirit Lords before. --50.46.145.167 05:54, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
 * the st rit is listed nvm someone added it... I'm assuming you tried the standard duncan tactic of swapping spirits and spreading your heroes out to avoid spirit rift spikes? Because duncan isn't that hard to kill even without st rit-- Relyk  talk  06:00, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
 * What is up with that ST rit though :). It's not like heroes know how to manage ST with more than 3 spirits or that they know how to use Union after Shelter. ST is fine with just Shelter and then a couple of offensive spirits though. Earthbind can also be nice, but you should have Stonefist on a warrior anyway, so it's only useful in areas with KD-immune foes. And Restoration?? Duncan shouldn't be that hard, especially in NM and if you use the Swap technique (listed on wiki). Even just the spirits from SoS (and optional SoGM), placed just outside his aggro range should be able to solo him. Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 12:14, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
 * In this case, you make Earthbind and all other binding rituals a Variant. Not everyone is a Earthshaker Warrior.--173.66.203.20 14:48, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

The problem I find with adding an ST hero is that you usually end up with this bar with 20 variants:

Maybe with Dissonance mainbar. The problems with other skills are numerous. Heroes don't know how to use them (e.g. Union with Shelter, Armor of Unfeeling). Too many spirits for a hero to manage (e.g. more than 3 spirits or 3 spirits that all die quickly). Some are non-mainbar variant by default (e.g. Earthbind). There's just not much of a place in the team with Minions. The only time I use ST in this team is when I am SoS myself with Painful Bond, and then I replace the SoS hero with an ST com/chan hybrid, something like:

Anyway, the current ST in the teambuild is just too situational and hero-unfriendly (and has Restoration...). <font color="#47d1de">talk 15:17, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Ironically, I went back in Hard Mode - and forgot to switch Razah from SoGM Smite to the ST! The BHA Ranger still made it possible to take him down. --50.46.145.167 21:05, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Great news :). Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 21:11, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Healing?
My experience of this build has been mostly positive and most of the time it is very effective however there are some occassions where there is simply not enough healing, while the variants suggested do seem to help to some degree I'm wondering why dedicated healers (UA/HB Mimicry comes to mind) aren't in the party? I haven't that much experience with team builds so this is certainly more of a question rather than a criticism though. Nickpk 12:26, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
 * You shouldn't need the extra heals in most places, so it's better to just bring hybrids for more damage. Especially because using resto heals means you only need 2-3 skill slots to heal efficiently.  For extra defense in harder areas, changing the Illusion elite to Shared Burden can help a lot.  If you are in an area where that's not enough, you can always just bring a healer in the optional spot.  N/Rt resto works well.  UA is decent if you die frequently, but you really shouldn't.  E/Mo prots are pretty good for extra defense too, as long as you don't give them infuse.  A smiter with either RoJ or Empathic Removal is another possibility for extra heals, with a bit of damage as well.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  13:43, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

ST does not work with AotL minion bomber
Even though shelter will die instantly from minions, I won't go to that direction since I already seen the argument about shelter + Minion. The thing is, your minions are suppose to die in minion bombing. You don't want them to survive, so they can blow up in the enemy's face + AoTL creates corpses faster than they can die. My suggestion if using Soul Twisting, 1. Replace Minion bomber with Resto Rit and replace PoD's protter with more offensive skills. 2. Use Order of Undeath build, but remove all the spammable skills such as Death Nova so that Fiends will be spammed more, + add GoLE to make sure Fiends cost less, but the player has to be a midline with EBSoH. I tested it, and it works. 3. Replace Minion bomber with RoJ. --173.66.203.20 14:25, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Or... Just don't use an ST rit? -- Jai . -  15:14, May 1 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm just going to remove the ST rit later and add a note at variants if people want to use it. Main arguments are in the Modification for Duncan section above. ST Defensive just isn't really suitable for this team. Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 17:35, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Gave this build to my 10 year old brother...
Before this I had to babysit him pretty much 24/7. Missions like Gates of Kryta would cause him to wipe. He would need my help on every mission. Decided to just grind for a day, unlock all the skills and heroes needed for this on his account and set him up. He has now completed Prophecies, Nightfall and most of Eye of the north without my help. This build rocks and has saved me countless hours of playing a game I don't have much interest in anymore! 115.188.184.233 13:05, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
 * ^ This is possibly the most brilliant post on gwpvx. Also I find the paragon with incoming/fall back is more helpful than the RoJ especially in vanquishes since more time is spent running than in battle. Plus it makes roundup more fun eh?-- [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  16:56, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Sudden commandagon hate
Wowow, what's up with the sudden commandagon hate? What do you guys want instead, a RoJ hero or something (see Variants)? Not much to work with from ratings alone (especially Yuri and Anvil). <font color="#47d1de">talk 22:37, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
 * IMO, give an RoJ either FB or SYG. More utility, and better damage unless you're bringing the SoGM.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  03:11, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It adds defense which is not needed. And has extremely poor DPS, the only purpose it serves is to spread splinter weapon and if you play a melee character yourself that creates a conflict of interests as even a bad player should be able to utilize splinter weapon more efficiently then a hero. When I posted my own build I also got a bunch of BS about the SS necromancer which was identical to the PoD necromancer here apart from the elite, the elite used here will often be used on mobs that are not balled up and early in the fight, while SS would take longer to cast and even if the mob is still running towards you and isn't close to the rest of the foes it could deal damage to the others a couple of seconds later. But in short, the more testing I do with curse necromancers the more unsure I am about whether the deserve a spot in a team at all, regardless of what elite is used.
 * In my opinion both of those character should be taken out as they try to generalize where one should be specializing. If using the current Panic + Inept + SoS + SoGM + AoTL as a base, adding two air elementalists would be the better choice if your character is a ranger or elementalist itself (EBSOH on player character). If you play a healing monk adding a couple of melee characters could be very useful, if you play a smite monk you could add EBSOW and two more smite monks with 40\40 sets for halving cool downs on the different spells, if you play melee you can add two smite monks with physical support skills such as Strength of Honor and Judge's Insight. (which based on my own testing is a far more surefire option then the curse necromancer)
 * Adding variants based on player profession and keeping the base in play makes for far more efficient builds then the current one YuriZahard 11:08, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Not to forget you could simply go with 3x Discord Heroes and add Fall Back to the SoS ritualist. Which is also a viable option for a primary mesmer \ necromancer \ monk \ assassin and any kind of \A Assassins Promise based build. YuriZahard 11:18, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * And of course you should not be forgetting that a player with mercenary heroes has the ability to add 1 or 2 more mesmers. Another option generally better then whats currently in place YuriZahard 11:25, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I guess you are comparing the build with these builds. About the Discordway build, here's a copy-paste: 6 out of 7 builds are pretty much identical: Discord on the curse and mm necros instead of PoD and AotL/Jagged. Then the seventh hero is different: Discord Resto instead of a Commandagon. I daresay the Discord resto would be superfluous and the Commandagon much more supportive (Anthem of Envy + GftE for damage, SYG for support, Fall Back for speed boost, Splinter Weapon triggers). The RoJway build is a better alternative in any case. It is, however, much more focused on melee support and requires pretty good balling (RoJ is adjacent range) to be effective (both in terms of aggro control so the healer isn't overwhelmed and in terms of RoJ scatter). I'd say the RoJway build is a good alternative for an experienced melee player. I maintain that this build is more suitable for the average player (both melee and not) or non-melee players. About the mercenaries: no build on PvX includes them because we don't expect people to have them. It's also pretty hard to test builds if you don't have Mercs (I don't for example), so it'll only be theory-crafting. Not a good argument to put down this build (or other builds) in any case. Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk  11:34, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * On the RoJ Heroway side of things yes, on the 7 hero discordway side of things. No. That would be a very bad 7 hero adaption of a 3 hero build which lacks a lot of the changes that should have been made. I'll be back in 15 minutes or so to read and reply to the rest of it, just read the first two lines now. YuriZahard 11:52, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm just going to end this discussion for now with a final statement.
 * I do, in short, believe a good rating is all this build deserves. Regardless of player skill, or player class, changing the two characters in question and adapting them to the play-style of the player character whether melee, caster or ranged physical will always result in a significant performance increase. What this build is trying to do is to create a build which works equally well for all classes, but in doing so it creates a build that is significantly sub-par to the performance a slightly more specialized build would get. The performance increase of switching the two characters in question to characters more suited to the play-style of the player characters build (not about pulling mobs, aggro control and balling, but simply whether you fight as melee or ranged and whether or not your damage is affected by armor or ignores armor) equals a solid 5 to 20% speed increase. And unless specifically requested through my talk page I will leave it at that, if the build undergoes significant changes and gets several different variants added I will consider to change my vote. YuriZahard 12:13, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I haven't seen any actual viable suggestions other than the RoJway which is tailored to experienced melee players (yes it is about pulling mobs, aggro control and balling, otherwise that build will not be efficient at all). The 2 air eles are not viable, because you are throwing out the healer? What will heal you? Same with your other suggestions (2 melee heroes with a healing player, but without the para support, what?) I think you are underestimating the commandagon entirely. You say its only purpose is to spread Splinter and in melee player situations it will just detract from the player. Not true in both cases. In case of a melee player, Anthem of Envy and GftE will trigger on the player as well. SYG is maintainable 34% decrease in damage. Dual Fall Back is probably the single thing that speeds up PvE the most. I'd like to see these 20% speed increase variants that can still survive, say, Vloxen Excavations HM. The best variant is another mesmer, which is exactly what is already in the build. A final note is that you say the build deserves a good rating but you trash it. Is that because you think it deserves a trash or because you rate low in an effort to decrease the average rating? Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 12:34, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * That this build uses 5 completely standard "Great" rating bars doesn't keep me from trashing it based on the two bars that separate it from any other build out there. You could just as well add 2x random henchmen and you wouldn't notice the difference. Or add 2x AFKers and a little more healing on the current bars and run them while they're AFK. Again, you'd hardly notice the difference as the curse and commando bar doesn't actually do much. YuriZahard 13:04, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I guess I'd like to see mini skill bars. Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 12:37, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Yuri, I'd love you to tell the average GW player that they should run with exactly two heals in their entire build, and see what they say. Chances are they're not going to listen to you, and add more heals anyway. The N/Rt Healer isn't contributing much damage at all, but you have to have at least a second healer in a generalized build like this one. The para, I switched out for a smite. It's really not that difficult. Quite simply, this is the best you're going to run while still having enough defense to cater to the average GW player. -- Jai . -  15:00, May 5 2011 (UTC)
 * The curses helps significantly if you're moving quickly. If you play slow and carefully, of course you don't need it.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  15:50, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It should, this is what most people run give or take. People run commandogon quite often, it's an interchangeable slot and all the other meta builds are listed as variants if you prefer to use another hero. It's a slot that can be left optional, but clarity takes priority over semantics with a build. Rating a build down based on just that is a pretty weak reason. Jai adding the RoJ monk just to cater to pvx is dumb though. Also, the esurge for razah got theorycrafted in, sogm or st rit is much better for a general build; it should be listed in variants for those who like using esurge and don't need to defensefag with an ST rit (which dzjudz does with his malevolent disgust of sogm :P).-- Relyk 17:51, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Simply put if you want to play this build as a primary ritualist making that change is a "must do" so I'd say it should stay. YuriZahard 18:09, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * General reply to statements here. The smiter has a once in 17 second adjacent range attack that scatters enemies in HM. Do people really think it's that good? Is it because it looks like it's doing a lot of damage with the big beam of light or something? P.S. the ESurge Razah didn't exactly get theorycrafted in Relyk, I've been using it since the update for many dungeons and vanquishes, it's faster in general than the SoGM Razah. Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 18:46, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not going to address how wrong your first statement is. As for esurge: Of course it's going to be, that's not the point. spirit spammer is more flexible to use and suitable for any area of the game. esurge, on the other hand, is a decent option for speeding through easier areas and spiking groups in harder areas. It should be a variant for players who know they can run a more offensive build.-- Relyk 19:39, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Use a snare or KD on the player, or just bodyblock to keep them in RoJ. Also, if you have enough damage elsewhere they'll die within the first few hits, so they'll never have the chance to scatter. Panic will also help to keep stuff still. But ~180 damage from a single skill is pretty hard to pass up. -- Jai . -  20:04, May 5 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't usually run aoe KD on my chars, but bodyblocking is a valid point. If you have a wall or minions to prevent them from scattering. You have enough damage elsewhere already, RoJ is unnecessary. My vote is for an optional slot for either RoJ or Commandagon. Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 21:31, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually Relyk, the SoGM adds extremely good damage. I used to run Esurge and cut the SoGM but now matter how much I try I can't seem to prove that it's faster then SoGM. If you test VS the master of damage you will see that a SoS ritualist deals something like 90-120 DPS (goes a bit up and down) before factoring in splinter weapon and Ancestors' Rage vs a 60 AL target. But if you add in a SoGM ritualist also @16 attribute points in primary attribute the damage will constantly stay over 200 DPS (period of 5 seconds) and peak at around 290-300 (over 5 seconds again). Regardless of how skilled you are or how fast you play, those numbers are very hard to compete with. And even if your esurge hero plays perfectly and does manage to beat the DPS dealt by the SoGM. It will do worse VS any mob that escapes it's AoE damage aka during the clean-up phase of the fight. My own conclusion is therefore that the Razah as Esurge option should if the player character is a primary ritualist running a SoS build. YuriZahard 22:00, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Removing Commandogon for RoJ
I haven't checked logs for who did it, but once you've added the first RoJ and completely removed the commandogon you may as well remove the pain of disenchantment as well as an additonal RoJ will beyond any doubt deal more damage through smite condition \ shatter hex and RoJ then a pain of disenchantment necro will deal and 2x RoJ + SoS hybrid will heal for enough to keep team alive by themselves. Congratulations on ending up with a better build called RoJ-Heroway? Might as well either revert the change and admit this is a subpar and different build or merge it or revert it to the Trial phase and do a complete votevipe.... If changes are made I will cast my vote after they've settled in. YuriZahard 19:13, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Current curses bar is wrong, not sure why changes were made. MoP/Barbs add significant damage when combined with minions, even if the player is a caster.  And weakness scales with enemy damage, making it one of the strongest general defenses for HM.  At this point, we might as well just create a merged build with AotL/SoS/2 Mesmers, and list this/RoJway as optionals, because those 4 are the actually important part.  Any other Curses/RoJ/Para/SoGM/whatever is just filler.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  19:32, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Having 3 hero slots as optional would be a royal mess though and not very helpful to people who come here. -- <font face="Courier New" color="Black">Toraen <font face="Courier New" color="DarkGoldenrod">TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png|link=User:Toraen]] 19:33, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * ^Exactly my point.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  19:36, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * You can't run a general PvE build, meant for the masses, on two heals (the ones on the SoS). Also, the build already has in the range of 700-800 AoE damage, even by conservative estimates. You don't need another RoJ. I've run pretty much this exact same build before, and by the time you finish with the first target, all adjacent foes are dead. If that doesn't happen for you, you're doing it wrong. -- Jai . -  19:46, May 5 2011 (UTC)
 * Seriously Yuri, we're not waiting on your approval or something to find this build ok by your standards... Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 21:26, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Rewrite suggestion
I see Toraen added a rewrite tag because of all this discussion. How about this then? Or is that too 'optionally' for pvx? (and Yuri, I realise that it is not an epic uber-fast specialised build, but that's not the point of it) <font color="#47d1de">talk 21:54, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I dont see whats wrong with a commandagon. Anthem of Envy+a shitton of spirits=lolwat. Also Weapon of Warding is bad. Life Guardian 22:10, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't see it either, thanks. Weapon of Warding is used pretty effectively, when a player is under severe attack. But you can switch it to Life or something if you want, a single skill doesn't break the build :). Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 22:15, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The point against WoW is that its extremely unnecessary because everything thats threatening should be dead after the 11 seconds of aegis. But yeah, not that big of a deal. Life Guardian 22:28, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Spiritwall prevents training by melee, even in urgoz, deep, and doa. WoW ends up burning energy and stripping splinter weapon. It's a very big deal! jai shouldn't have changed the commandogon to RoJ, I'd mainbar sogm for reasons like I said above and you're abusing spirits with anthem of envy. There should only be one bar for razah, put esurge in variants.-- Relyk 22:30, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * ESurge+RoJ vs SoGM+Commandagon? Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 22:35, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Those are significantly different builds imo. For a build with as general a name as "Player Support", you should only list sogm+commandogon and suggest esurge+roj as a variant for more knowledgeable players.-- Relyk 22:42, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Then what was all this discussion about? I think both options could be included like in that proposal, it's still pretty clear. Also, the point is that it is supposed to be a general build that can do pretty much everything for all players. Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 22:46, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I guess, it's not worth making the page messier to look at though imo. I don't like listing an option that isn't necessary, that's what we have variants for.-- Relyk 22:56, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Point taken. I see where you're coming from, especially after reading that new article you wrote. I think readers shouldn't be overwhelmed by an option of two though. Both setups should work anywhere, the main team offers enough protection and healing, including spirit and minion walls (though fewer spirits than with SoGM). I think it really depends on player profession and play-style preferences. Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 23:02, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Rewrote the 'merge' proposal a little again, now with a clear and succinct Note section on hero variants, with several links to that section in the article itself (in the introduction and at the two variant heroes). Any objections of a build quality nature? I think this should cater to pretty much everyone. <font color="#47d1de">talk 00:32, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm sad to see your great teambuild getting trashed, so I feel obliged to fix it. Bring back MoP in stead of FoMF on the curse resto, there is plenty of rez and MoP is one of the best curses skills, you don't want your primary healer rezzing stuff in combat! The RoJ monk sucks, it's a jack of all trades, master of none. RoJ is a weak elite skill which only causes scatter in HM, there is no need for it except maybe for areas with lots of undead, like SoO. Condition and hex removal is already covered, also are the prots so there is no need for RoD, the additional healing is insignificant and the energy management of the monk isn't great. If you want smiting prayers, put it as a secondary on the SoS for example. There is absolutely no reason to take a monk over a rit, mesmer or necro hero! Bring back the Commandogon, which actually provided some synergy, and make Razah an optional, I prefer the SoGM rit above all optionals. The pressure it takes of the team and the damage it does makes it too good to ignore, E-Surge or a dedicated resto are also valid options. I agree with changing it to your sandbox setup Djudz to make everyone happy Vorpal 01:19, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Aye, Sandbox looks a lot better then the original. Still the build in itself has changed very little, but for my part I'll probably change my vote based on the rewriteYuriZahard 07:42, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Something interesting I noticed: there are currently 0 7 hero builds in the "Great" category. There are currently 0 3 hero builds in the "Good" category. This is despite many of the 7 hero builds being essentially extensions on the 3 hero versions. I think there's a conflict of standards somewhere.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  09:06, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't see anything wrong, the only reason this build isn't great is the trash votes by yuri and anvil god. also lolpvx-- Relyk 09:49, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * And there's differences between the builds. Hero Spiritway abused the 3 most powerful heroes available. MM\SoS and SoGM. And it was all you could get so it was an obvious "Great" add. Sabway SPECIALIZED itself towards the melee player. Human Rit Spiritway SPECIALIZED itself towards a human ritualist. Discordway is SPECIALIZED towards an AP caller and caster classes. Racway is SPECIALIZED towards Imbagons (though it still isn't exactly great). Each and every one of those builds are made around the player bar and utilized the available resources to their fullest. Now, with the 7 hero builds there are also a few specialized builds. But they are also sub-optimal, Barrageway (heroes suck at barrage) - Melee Support (Uses highly questionable melee characters) - 7 hero Racway (Paragon DPS is still as bad as ever). Then you have the 7 hero generic support, obviously not an optimized build and has a multitude of characters with questionable performance. And this build, which so many think is "Great" fails at catering any specific crowd and makes sacrifices in order to cater all crowds instead of SPECIALIZING towards a specific one. You guys think it's a bloody awesome idea to run the exact same build regardless of what class you play, I think it's the worst idea ever! Because instead of creating a master of the melee trade or master of the caster trade build. You create a Jack of All Trades - Master of None. YuriZahard 10:09, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Sure, you can make general 7-hero builds from any of the vetted hero builds on here. For example, take from there: ER Prot Hero, Air Support Hero, PvE Earth Warder, Keystone Mesmer, Unyielding Aura Healer, Enraged Volley Hero, Inspiration Support Ritualist. 0 builds in common with this build and no necro or spirit support. Will that team get you through the game? Yes, it probably will take you through most HM content without too much trouble. The point, however, is that we're trying to make a 7-hero build here that is the optimal choice for most players to still easily play through the game but also do it pretty darn efficiently. More specialised builds often require more micro or player skill. For physical players, I agree that this build lacks something like Orders (although it still has MoP/SoH/Splinter/Command support). For caster players I don't know what should be added in addition to what there is already though. I see the viability of team-builds specifically for physical/melee players (at least more than caster-specific builds). If you're talking about meta, i.e. what most general players should run to be safe but also efficient, I think you should be looking at this build. It is not specialised, but it does not yield much to specialised builds either. It is simply great at what it is supposed to do. Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 11:29, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * So you're saying picking the right build for you're character was too hard when you had to choose between Sabway, Discordway and Ritway? And you should now not even have to read up and pick the right build? YuriZahard 12:30, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Sabway, Discordway and Spiritway were created when we could only pick 3 heroes, therefore you can't just simply apply or extend their design on 7 hero parties. Discord, for example, was a great 3 hero build because it combined prot, curses, minions, healing, damage and excellent e-management into only 3 heroes. However nowadays you can simply specialise your hero builds, a "7 hero discord" build is created from a flawed and outdated design principle, 7 hero team builds should optimise synergy between hero builds. Your argument holds no ground, general discord, sab and spiritway weren't specialised hero builds... They were general kill-em all team builds which combined the best of different worlds so that everyone could use them. Vorpal 12:43, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * No that's not what I'm saying at all. Let's see the timeline. Discordway and Sabway were created first. Sabway catered more to the physical player crowd. After the ritualist update, new builds with powerful spirit spammers started to emerge, resulting in spiritway. This build made Discordway mostly redundant because it was just plainly more powerful (people who liked single target spikes kept using Discordway though). For physicals Sabway was still arguably the better choice. After the mesmer update it became a little harder, because mesmer were now on the same level as necros and rits, resulting in difficult team-building with just 3 heroes. Now with 7 heroes, you can create new builds with all three powerful primaries. This is apparent from (almost) all 7 hero builds currently on PvX, they include necros, mesmers and rits. This build's goal is to create the new meta, using the most effective combination of builds for general play. Another build tailored more to physicals might be created to reflect an updated Sabway, this evolution can already be seen in the several physical/melee builds already on the site. I hope you understand the whole point behind this build more clearly now. Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 12:59, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I really don't know what you want from this build. You can take the ESurge+RoJ, then in the variants it states that brave players like you can bring damage instead of the curse resto, like another RoJ Monk. This option leaves out both the paragon and the curse resto that you seemingly don't need and make a team with dual ESurge + dual RoJ: uber aoe spike-damage, and the bare minimum of skills devoted to prot and healing (only 6 skills in the whole team, 3 prot and 3 heal). The only thing that is missing from this build is Orders for physicals, which can't really fit in it unless you have a complete rewrite, but that's more suited for a physical oriented build (like those on pvx already). What is trashworthy about the current build? Dzjudz sig.png<font color="#47d1de">talk 18:32, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Good job on rewriting the build, I gave it the rating it deserves now. Vorpal 18:54, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Despite some stupid comments by Yuri, this build should be in the "Great" category, especially after the rewrite. Great job. Wingfoot 21:43, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The only thing the rewrite actually changed was how the article looked. Made it a bit easier to pick the right set of bars but that's it YuriZahard 08:11, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The current team build HAS undergone significant changing since it was first posted - culminating in the better write up that you now allude to. But the point is that the build always belonged in the "Great" category (which it obviously is now back in). Your poor arguments aside. And, anyway, when making pvx build neatness and ease of use are very important - so it isn't just a silly, minor thing to fix that. The team build is much stronger than it started out, the page is much better than it started out - and it is in the correct category now.Wingfoot 00:07, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Tbh, several builds here are starting to look very much alike, culminating in pretty much the same build. For example: take Razah as SoGM option, take seventh hero as RoJ option, then take the brave RoJ variant and you have the default RoJ Heroway (incidentally, Yuri runs that... gg subpar vote). Or: again take Razah as SoGM and seventh hero as RoJ, and optionally switch Illusion to para and you have 7 Hero Melee Support. In the end, unless you're going to run something like this, you're not going to get much more straight-up damage. The basis for 7HPS is a safe build everyone can run to blow through HM. Advanced players can take variants to suit their play style more. Dzjudz sig.png <font color="#47d1de">talk 00:50, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

DoA full-run solo easy-way?
I began using this build in DoA normal mode with para and Razah as mesmer and me playing as AP with Aegis and SoA, and I was really impressed with its effectiveness (hey, I still remember when DoA was hard). Finished all areas but Foundry (died at Fury on the only try I did). City was done in 24 mins w/o cons, and Veil in about the same time, which I think is a nice alternative to DwG PUGs. I was playing as careless as possible, only some longbow pulls and no micro-ing. The only change I did was to put UA on the para (micro-ed sometimes) to recover more easily from deaths (very helpful on some double pulls on Foundry). Mollock 14:59, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I did exactly the same, and I have the same conclusions.I clear the foundry entierly 3 times, and never kill the Fury. The final group wipes the team in several seconds (even with consets)...92.149.65.221 19:18, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * On my second try I did beat Foundry. Just disable all hexes for the final battle. Mollock 21:17, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
 * What do you mean "disable all hexes"? Do you bring anti-hexes with you or do you prevent your heroes to use hexes?92.149.65.221 21:53, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Prevent your heroes from using hexes. --  Toraen   talk  21:58, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Precisely. So you can avoid the Hex Eater Vortex spike Mollock 11:23, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

E/me Ether dom hero as 7th optional
Should we add the ether renewal mesmer hero as an optional 7th, especially considering how much damage that thing does with a panic?
 * I disagree. Razah still does more damage.-- ValeV 666[[file:smily.jpg|link=User:ValeV666]] 13:45, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
 * He means as the 7th hero, not instead of Razah. It is a viable option, sure. I'm not sure about the diminishing returns though, especially if taking Razah as domination. Dzjudz sig.png <font color="#47d1de">talk 14:02, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
 * That's a viable option imo, if you feel that you don't need anymore defenses. I don't think it's wise to list it as an optional though, the build already has many optionals, we'll end up listing every meta hero as an optional 7th hero this way based on the area and your own profession. I wrote it down at the variants section, if you disagree Dzjudz just remove it again, but I think it's a good variant for when you're panic yourself. Vorpal 14:27, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Nah that's fine. I agree with the point of opening the floodgates to all meta builds :). Dzjudz sig.png <font color="#47d1de">talk 14:58, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Weapon/Shield/Focus collection
Thought I would list green weapons that meet the weapons recommendations:

Curses Resto Necro: Droknar's Restoration Scepter, Shield of Fortitude (see below) Minion Bomber Prot Necro: Spirit of the Forgotten, Shield of Fortitude (see below) Illusion Mesmer: Vokur's Cane, Alitta's Focus Domination Mesmer: Kemil's Scepter, Hanaku's Focus SoS Channeling Ritualist: Prayer of the Forgotten, Shield of Fortitude (see below) ES Domination Razah: Kemil's Scepter, Hanaku's Focus SoGM Razah: Prayer of the Forgotten, Shield of Fortitude (see below) RoJ Smite Monk: Droknar's Smiting Scepter, Droknar's Smiting Focus Command Para: Shrieking Spear, Eye of Argon

There is a very large variety of green Shields of Fortitude including but not limited to: Shagu's Anthem (easy to farm), Onwan's Aegis (easy to farm), Sunreach's Shield, Wandalz's Refuge, and more.

Several of the items listed here have counterparts that may be much easier to obtain, particularly including Vokur's Cane which is very hard to farm, but weaponsmiths Gertrud and Telamon craft an equivalent with the same stats, complete with upgrades. It may also be cheaper to buy Droknar's Keys in Kamadan from players than to try and piece together the upgrades for an equivalent - for example, the price of a perfect "Forget Me Not" is usually triple the price of a Droknar's Key. --Triplehammer 05:30, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Feel free to add them yourself, just use interwiki links: Kemil's Scepter shows as Kemil's Scepter for example. Hero equipment is rather trivial though.-- Relyk 08:16, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The reason we mostly don't list greens etc is that there are multiple valid weapon choices (e.g. staff vs spear/shield etc) and then multiple sources of those weapons (greens, crafters, collectors, etc). I think it better just to list stats and then let players decide how they want to acquire those stats. Dzjudz sig.png <font color="#47d1de">talk 13:03, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * If you don't care about the skin, there's a collector Nikun in the Desolation who trades 5 Margonite Masks for a -5/20 +30 Adamantine Tactics Shield (and adamantine's a pretty good skin imo) Cosky 07:48, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
 * and just to put a period on the whole thing, the build is constantly changing, so you shouldn't be investing money in something if there's room for improvement, which there certainly is in this build.--Saxazax 22:53, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Razah
Build needs a snare of some sort so why no Shared Burden on Razah? Seems to be better then the little extra damage. Also consider specing Razah as a form of melee like an RAO spear or a B/P for minion feed. --Strayver 14:23, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Shared Burden is Illusion and therefore already an optional on the illusion mesmer. Spear/Bow aren't melee (melee is close-combat, i.e. Sword/Axe/Hammer/Daggers/Scythe; Spear and Bow are ranged martial weapons). A rit or mesmer will just do much more for the team, both in damage and support areas, than a ranger. Caster heroes in general are better than physical heroes. Melee heroes suffer from terrible AI. Moreover, slotting in physicals will probably mean that you need more physical support (e.g. Orders, additional Splinters, etc). It's probably better to just make a build around physicals then (some sort of Racway/Barrageway variant or something). Dzjudz sig.png <font color="#47d1de">talk 15:00, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * also don't forget the need for armor-ignoring damage which comes only from casters. esp. in HM. also snares are never needed outside of ball/spike.--Saxazax 22:48, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Runes
Could someone explain the benefit of some of the major runes placed in these builds over minor, and some of the superior over major? There's some pretty enormous HP loss going on here, especially on the SoGM build, and I'm wondering what the benefit we're getting over that is, especially on the SoGM. Thanks much to whoever can help me out understanding these. 216.107.215.226 21:43, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The rits place a lot of spirits and otherwise do not directly engage foes, so the superior runes are very effective on them. Similar reasoning for the MM (he'll get an extra minion out of it as well). The dom mes uses its major for a breakpoint. Really, superior runes are a preference, and it's possible to run whichever. You'll be slower but safer without superior runes, and some players are good enough to take the hit to health on everyone. --  Toraen   talk  02:37, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * If you play melee, it can be faster not to use Sups, because enemies will go for you more often if your health is the lowest of the team. Lets you ball up enemies without wasting time pulling, makes healing easier, and lowers kiting.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  04:18, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
 * "...enemies will go for you more often if your health is the lowest of the team..." [citation needed]--Saxazax 22:46, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

no SF???!?!?!?!!???!!
arguably one of the best aoe skills in game.. tandem usage makes it infinitely better and the eles can carry wards if wanted/necessary... aslo synergy with "They're on Fire!" on the commandogon so give it a thought 01:31, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Because any ele damage will get reduced to pathetic amounts in HM. You're almost always better off with armor-ignoring damage from stuff like Mistrust, Unnatural Signet, CoP, Putrid Bile, Death Nova, spirit attacks, inept/clum/wandering, and RoJ. In normal mode, SF is decent, but once stuff gets higher armor, the damage gets cut drastically. -- Jai . -  10:46, June 29 2011 (UTC)


 * Not sure if serious...leaning towards 'no' due to punctuation leakage.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  14:01, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Unsteady Ground would be a better option if you really want an ele.--76.18.249.253 16:49, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Updated?
I'm seeing a lot of good modifications to the build, is the build page updated with these or is it still the 1.0 version? Where could I find the most updated version of this 7 hero support?
 * This is the most recent version and fully up-to-date. Btw sign your commenst by putting 4 "~" at the end of your comments. <font color="Black">Vorpal [[Image:Ether Renewal.jpg|19px]] 14:34, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks man. Appreciate it Kalarian 14:52, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Suggestions for Barrage Ranger
I see that there are lots of optional skills, and I was thinking about trying this out in HM with my barrage ranger. I've got all the heroes setup without their optional skills and not sure which one I should use for the last one. Any suggestions that you guys have found useful? Kalarian 14:55, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Use the Paragon described in the article, since you don't benefit from Strength of Honor but you do from the shouts/chants. Most namely "Go For The Eyes!" and Anthem of Envy. Or, when you need more defense, you could use an ER Prot/Resto/ST Rit, as described under variants.<font color="Black">Vorpal [[Image:Ether Renewal.jpg|19px]] 15:16, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh and you should really take Mark of Pain on the Curse Resto for moar damage. The usual modifications for a physical damage dealer :) <font color="Black">Vorpal [[Image:Ether Renewal.jpg|19px]] 15:24, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
 * R/A Pet Dagger tbh. SoH yourself and the pet. AegisDok 18:51, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah because the RoJ monk doesn't have any problem keeping energy up... if your going to use 2x SoH you should drop the Fall Back and use inspiration magic on him 65.191.246.62 02:21, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

How about an Archive?
This page could seriously use one. --Master Elros 07:14, 25 July 2011 (UTC)