Archive talk:P/A Dagger Spammer

Archive 1

Okay, now for some constructive criticism of the new build. Starting with the name... any better ideas? - Athrun Feya - 22:09, January 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * think of names as the easiest way for people to find a build. If someone wants to find this, it should be something like TPIY Daggers. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gringo (talk &bull; contribs) (UTC). 22:10, January 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Something like 'Power Dagger Para' >.>Digitalfear 22:13, January 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, the new name is cool Tyrael [[Image:Life Sheath.jpg|19px]]  Undead!  22:18, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

Blazing Finale :o? Or am i just bad?  «No  vii« 22:26, January 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Not enough room on the bar, plus it's not really a great choice. Life   Guardian  00:05, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

This might work with zealous daggers... even with that your ias is terrible without being drunk. Oh yeah have fun with the 2 energy regen (1 with zealous daggers). If you are blinded or blocked, you can't gain energy as efficiently and your regen is bad, so TNTF becomes annoying to reach. Maybe wild spear? Also, if you have GFTE and TPIY, have you tried aggressive refrain?Idk what is with the inundation of "unique" *cough* paragon builds lately. It seems like people are /desperate/ for non-imbagon pve paragon builds; good luck. Rikk Panda 01:14, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * You're running GftE + TPIY on <1s attack intervals. There is no way you would have energy problems with this. --Shazamrowssig.png 01:17, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * This is actually plausible now that they have taken away the recharge for GFTE.--Ikimono  "...And my axe!" [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png]] 03:15, January 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * leave rikk alone, he's naturally bad, and rikk, read the archive. has amazing e-management for a para so stfu. also its great--Bluetapeboy 01:26, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Rikk's arguments usually make a decent amount of sense tbh. Life   Guardian  02:22, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * AR gives you 60AL (or 70 with cents) AL at most times, which is real bad at front line. With TPIY's up you have 2 regen and zealous, and also, 2 spammable shouts = lolenergy on a paragon.
 * And another think with this chain the IAS isn't that big of a deal tbh. --Frosty  [[Image:Frostcharge.jpg|19px]] 03:00, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * AL matters in PvE? --Shazamrowssig.png 04:13, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * PvX seems to think so. Too bad they're lolwrong. Life   Guardian  04:16, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually they wouldn't be completely wrong, especially if you're into semi-pulling and tanking stuff, which I do often in HM. There isn't really a significant difference between 15% or 25% ias on a dagger build (if you really think thats an issue you'd use alcohol), at least not enough to warrant perma cracked armor. - Athrun Feya - 09:38, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

frosty didnt we make an HA build using these a while ago? happen to have that saved? &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gringo (talk &bull; contribs) (UTC). 04:22, January 12, 2010 (UTC)



<3 --Frosty  11:07, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * needs more finale of restoration :( Brandnew 12:57, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Anet screwed finale of restoration Tyrael [[Image:Life Sheath.jpg|19px]]  Undead!  13:27, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's funny that this version actually has better energy managment than an assassin... Tyrael [[Image:Life Sheath.jpg|19px]]  Undead!  14:13, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * i would never put anthem of fury in a build, you saved the wrong version :( &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gringo (talk &bull; contribs) (UTC). 19:33, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * I can asure you this was the version we had in TB, it wasn't really perfected. --<font color="Black">Frosty  [[Image:Frostcharge.jpg|19px]] 02:57, January 13, 2010 (UTC)

i tried this with a PvP paragon on the mob with allies and enemies, and this was great. w? zealous daggers there was no such thing as "energy" i spammed shouts so much there was no such thing as "energy" as you can spam your attacks thoughtlessly, but you also have to mash the shout buttons.--Bluetapeboy 21:32, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * you should run it. Would be fun to see/play Exo Oo 17:21, January 14, 2010 (UTC)

Actually
This could be a working (not great or even close to it, and not an alternative I would pick to just using a spear) build if it was an absolute necessity. The PvE stance helps with IAS but requires drunkedness for maximum effectiveness. Using Aggressive Refrain would be another route for an unstrippable IAS source as it is easy to keep up with TPIY and GFTE. The armor actually is annoying in pve, and you can go look up all the Armor vs. Health debates if you want to, such as QQ's old one and other variations, but 60 armor daggers is definitely flaunting on the edge of silliness in all respects. Of course if you do use AR with heroes and henchman (I assume this because any player would probably kick you from his/her party after discovering you were a Dagger Paragon) then they will blow their energy on removing the cracked armor that is reapplied every second or so. I'm sure the rest falls into place after that I'm tired of typing. Rikk Panda 00:52, January 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * hmm, what was that paragraph in aid of exactly? issue was resolved, drunken is still quite good without alcohol and AR has been put in variants. The damage of this build is so much better than any spear build, especially when combined with the right heroes - <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Athrun <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Feya - 00:58, January 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Was not to the aid of anything or to the dismay of anything else. I posted it though. So apparently people will see it. I can see it would work with echoes well, and if the person playing it is happy with drunken then so be it.Rikk Panda 01:05, January 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * First 2 skills are .5 sec activation, a great ias isn't "that" necessary. Armor doesn't matter, lern2Prot Spirit. Plus it's 70 with centurions. This build will do so much more damage than a spear it's ridiculous. Life   Guardian  01:08, January 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * why would you want to play a bloody paragon anyways..... sin is way better... crit strikes... and u get a free elite spot and free secondary profession for ias spot... i really dont see the point here... i also cant see the point why you can solo slaverz but still this game is going no where:L--86.162.97.156 09:27, January 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Shame you can't reroll in PvE. If you want titles (for whatever strange reason) on a paragon, you sadly are forced to play a paragon, so might as well make the most of it. - <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Athrun <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Feya - 17:24, January 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Might as well call it "Drunk Shouting Brawler" or something along that line. Nothing like someone getting drunk, shouting stuff, and getting into fistfights (funnier if using brass knuckles). --[[Image:Jimp.jpg|19px]] <font color="#00aaff">WhiteAsIce 03:56, January 17, 2010 (UTC)

Heroes
How well does this work on heroes? Anyone tested? They wouldn't be able to use dwarven, but that isn't much of an issue because they could use aggressive (also needs testing) or no ias at all. If they spam TPIY enough with GFTE I was thinking running it with another hero motigon with Finale of Resto to trigger is a lot. Also frees up player spot for imbagon.Rikk Panda 20:17, January 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Aggressive has to be microed, and they generally dont deal too well with dagger chains - <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Athrun <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Feya - 23:19, January 13, 2010 (UTC)

run
finale of restoration on a hero, micro it, cast it only on yourself, and the point of having 60 armro is irrelevant. you heal out all the damage. and the point of "why would i run a para? sins are better" first off, you would run this if you didnt need/already had an imbagon. "well if u have an imbagon already why not run a sin" because im trying to do stuffs on my para. lol.--Bluetapeboy 21:31, January 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * saying that this is worse compared to sin because of crit strikes, see GFTE! you get crits al the time w/ it. dunno what ur tlakin about.--Bluetapeboy 21:32, January 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Uh so to use Agg refrain, you need another hero? Just to maintain finale of restoration? That seems to me like a char spot wasted (of course not at all, but you can take better options). Also, 60 AL in frontline means instand KO's unless protted. Some big heals won't help u that much. I think your better off with a monk casting PS/SB on uSebv2727 13:42, January 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Idk why people are saying that this has more armor than a sin when the sin has Critical Agility... --[[Image:Jimp.jpg|19px]] <font color="#00aaff">WhiteAsIce 08:42, February 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * because theres a primary class called the PARAGON also assassin isnt the only primary class. if u want to play assassin go play it, u wanna play a paragon run imbagon or this nuffsaid now go back to your own life kthxbai --211.26.200.91 11:50, February 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * lulwut. anyway, the sin build is prone to enchant strip etc. - <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Athrun <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Feya - 11:55, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

Sneak Attack
Might work as a nice lead to blind, I realize it's not as spammable as Jagged but a variant. Mr Pink57 00:55, February 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Spammable is the whole point, to keep tpiy up :p also your name is familiar, do you know Tsuki Hitotsu? - <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Athrun <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Feya - 00:59, February 4, 2010 (UTC)

soothing images
soothing images is a pain in the ass for an imbagon. however with this they dont even cast it on you which is so full of win. when i first tested this i was vanqing in nf on an imbagon soothing images rapes it. so i tried this out and much to my surprise the ai doesnt use this on u ever! i think it should be noted on the page if vq a place with alot of ibogas to use this over an imbagon. tl;dr if ibogas are present this > imbagon Uraniumjoint 00:28, February 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * or just wield daggers on your imba while they're around - strong. - <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Athrun <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Feya - 11:59, February 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * oh yes such a great idea...not. they still know and cast it on you, pls play the game and not theorycraft lame answers kthnx baiUraniumjoint 20:47, February 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh the irony of that statement..... <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">20:56, 15 February 2010
 * lol /fail Exo Oo 21:23, February 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * LAWL &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Supernick530 (talk &bull; contribs).

I have not tested this and I doubt I shall, however I would think that soothing images is cast on the player if they are using attack skills that use adrenaline. If the attack skills use energy it won't be cast. I mean, how often do you see a ranger, dervish, or assassin get hit with soothing images. I could be horribly wrong but it sounds like the AI use Soothing Images in that manner.-- Jarad  23:30, February 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's more likely to be based on the type of weapon you're wielding. This is the case in other places in gws (eg, things only cast chaos storm on you if you're wielding a staff/wand, regardless of skills). So if you're wielding a spear, hammer, axe or sword this will probably happen - <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Athrun <font size="3" face="vivaldi" color="Steelblue">Feya - 00:11, February 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * As Athrun said, AI bases target priority for certain skills on what type of weapon that target is wielding. For example, if you use a caster spear, you'll often get anti-physical skills cast on you even if you're a caster. Basically, GW AI is pretty stupid most of the time. <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">01:23, 16 February 2010
 * lol, that it is. I guess I should check out soothing images with a warrior's endurance build since that would be a good indicator. -- Jarad 18:13, February 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * as a side note, if soothing images is based on weapon type, then just go with a short bow on your imba to keep your range. =) -- Jarad 18:15, February 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm really late to the discussion, but I should point this out: I've been vanq'ing NF noob island with my Sin, and I get hit with Soothing images all the time. I'm running the Dagger Spammer with SY. So no, it doesn't work specifically with weapons. -- Jai  13:09, June 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Are you using any adrenaline heroes/henchmen? Soothing Images has an AoE, so it could be spreading from them. Just check to be thorough. <font face="Courier New" color="Black">Toraen <font face="Courier New" color="DarkGoldenrod">TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png]] 17:14, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Happened today too. All of my heroes were casters, and I had a derv, a para, and 2 monks for henchies. They might have targetted Sogolon, but every time I hit a Fanged/Mirage Iboga I had Soothing Images on me. I really doubt it was AoE coming from Sogolon, considering I was ahead of the henchies. It does seem strange, though: I'm only running one adren skill, and never use anything but daggers (and occasionally a longbow, but almost never for plant mobs). I still stand by my belief that AI knows your skillbar at least to some degree. -- Jai  21:42, June 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * The AI does know your skillbar. If you have warrior adren skills, you get owned by soothing. However, it appears that the AI doesn't acknowledge para adren skills as adren skills. Life   Guardian  21:46, June 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yup, that would make sense. -- Jai  05:06, June 25, 2010 (UTC)

P/D Scythe Spammer?
Why would you want to use this build instead of using a scythe? 216.195.26.128 21:08, March 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Probably energy concerns. I haven't run either yet, so I don't know for sure if a P/D would be able to maintain energy. Here's a writeup for it, although I think P/D bars have been made and trashed before. <font face="Courier New" color="Black">Toraen <font face="Courier New" color="DarkGoldenrod">TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png]] 21:37, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

wow
So the main reason this and the P/D build exist is because other than imbagon, most other para builds are bad and/or playing mostly imbagon gets boring (which is true)? And any sin or derv builds using these same attack skills work better than the para primary amirite? So aren't these two reasons exactly the thing you folks would use to apply your "well" policy or whatever it's called? Or this doesn't apply for this one since it's made by one of the admins? This site cracks me up, seriously checking some of the stuff here from time to time (and especially the workings and policies) is better than watching Seinfeld. Tx for the luls. :D 83.131.59.98 16:38, May 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * actually there's a pretty obvious explanation. The theory is you can't reroll for general PvE (by this i mean if you want to do storyline or vanq on a para, you have to play said para) so therefore it should only be compared to other paragon builds. Cross-profession WELL tags don't really work for player builds (heroes is an example of where cross-profession WELL tags do apply, because they can so easily be swapped for another). - <font color="SteelBlue">Athrun <font color="Gray">Feya [[File:Lau_eye.png]] 17:02, May 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * to address the first point: imbagon is a more defensive build whilst this is offensive. WELLing this on the basis it is inferior to an imbagon is like WELLing a smite monk because it can't prot.. - <font color="SteelBlue">Athrun <font color="Gray">Feya [[File:Lau_eye.png]] 17:08, May 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Soooo by that logic if I posted a N/R beastmaster build with say Barbed Signet and a few blood skills for more pressure and a pet for damage that would end up in great cause if I wanted to play with a pet as necro I couldn't reroll a ranger? 13:45, May 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * No, that would be trashed because it has terrible damage output, and is inferior to other necromancer builds that focus on damage (SS and MoP nukers, for example). This and the P/D have damage capability comparable to the primary profession versions (whoop de do, 2 two less attribute levels and less inherent crit chance). The disadvantages are at least compensated for in the build (GftE = crit rate up and TPiY = energy support for the party). R/D and W/D (also R/A and W/A) are good builds, and by this is just another primary profession abusing the OP nature of scythes (or daggers) in PvE. <font face="Courier New" color="Black">Toraen <font face="Courier New" color="DarkGoldenrod">TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png]] 17:34, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok that sounds logical, but following that logic you seriously need to add Rt/A and Rt/D then, since Spirit's Strength, Asuran Scan, insert random scythe/dagger attacks (and Aura of Holy Might in case of scythes) is better than all this P/A, P/D poo. Oh and before you say it, Ghost Forge Insignia says hi, so "survivability" for a frontline caster is just fine. And energy is fine too. Wts zealous mod for daggers and inherently higher regen. 83.131.53.68 02:39, May 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * except you need a weapon spell, where all the weapon spells suck, and the rit is still a squishy frontliner. ritualist have spirit spam or glaive spam anyways. besides that, a ritualist is not a paragon. you might want to read what athrun said again.-- Relyk  talk  03:04, May 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * We actually have the Rt/D as a team of two that cast GDW on each other somewhere I think. Might have been moved to an Any/D team though. <font face="Courier New" color="Black">Toraen <font face="Courier New" color="DarkGoldenrod">TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png]] 03:14, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Axe variant
Hey I was wondering if this could be as good or even better using an axe? Bringing AoE attacks such as Cyclone Axe along with the 16 armor of a shield (r8 motivation shield that is) sounds good, but would the IAS be too slow? just a thought
 * The IAS would be too slow. <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">17:38, 6 July 2010


 * Not too bad now is it? At least it could spam save yourselves.  Could substitute something for There's nothing to fear if you wanted. Smity Smitington 21:50, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Archive or trash
The PvE skills made this build worth it enough. Cuilan 19:16, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd say trash cuz it was never really "that" good before or unique to archive it was it? Lania Elderfire 19:31, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think there's any need to trash it. Even without asuran scan dagger spam can do a lot of damage in physically oriented teams.  This build could spec higher into command and take never surrender, fallback, or some other support skills or more pve skills. Smity Smitington 21:39, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * asuran scan isn't what makes dagger spamming good-- Relyk  talk  01:06, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Why would this be trashed? If a para wanted to do damage, what else would he run?  Spear damage doesn't come close. AegisDok 23:47, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Dagger spammer is great on every build :) Nero 23:59, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

How does this build warrant a trash vote?
I thought we agreed it was unreasonable to ask players to reroll their primary profession when it comes to vetting builds for general PvE? AegisDok 07:04, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the vote in question: The main point of TPiY is the energy gain you get. GftE alone isn't enough without dark fury, and the build needs to be able to run without orders since this isn't a team page. The party support is secondary, and no other elite provides a maintainable adrenaline buff that is strong enough to make up for one less spammable shout. Even if they did, it'd still be worse than just taking TPiY since it provides for your energy and you can get some incidental support out of it.

A solo paragon with 7 heroes can also run this, it's not just "oh that group already has an imbagon QQ". Spears kill a lot slower than daggers, and you don't need SY spam in most of the game. There are no problems with energy since your shouts also affect minions and spirits.

Comparing it to an assassin primary is pointless, since it's a player PvE build. Can't just swap to an assassin to complete the content for your paragon. You obviously don't make a paragon to run this build and nothing else ever, but running Imbagon through everything is slow and other spear builds aren't all that much more damage than it. --  Toraen   talk  08:27, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Soldier's Fury
pew pew.

[build prof=Paragon/Assassin dagger=12][Soldier's Fury]["Go for the Eyes!"][Jagged Strike][Fox Fangs][Lotus Strike][Death Blossom][Never Surrender]["There's Nothing to Fear!"][/build]  Anvil God  zzz... 19:25, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Is the +33% ias necessary with the fastest activating attack skills in game? -- [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  20:01, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * 33% IAS increases your damage output by 50% regardless of attack speed. [[Image:AsuraSignature.jpg|15px]] Anvil God  zzz... 20:03, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * But you should be facerolling Jagged strike on recharge? -- [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  20:15, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * A 33% IAS decreases the attack speed of 1/2s attacks from 1/4s to 1/6s. [[Image:AsuraSignature.jpg|15px]] Anvil God  zzz... 20:19, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Is lotus enough energy management without TPiY? Also, you really need a perma shout/chant if you're using SF. AegisDok 03:53, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Derp. whoops. Only one I can think of is Never Surrender or Stand Your Ground. [[Image:AsuraSignature.jpg|15px]] Anvil God  zzz... 16:18, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
 * chain iau and syg/tn2f or bring ctt-- Relyk 21:47, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't believe we need IAS on dagger attack spam - Tiagos1 11:02, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
 * tbh "the power is yours" is quite useless, having faster attack speed and faster adrenalin gain is def better imo. Smity Smitington 14:08, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Replace?
Opinions on replacing the build page with User:Krschkr/P-A Heroic Refrain Daggers? --Krschkr (talk) 12:16, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
 * If the energy management on that is stable with no helper skills from heroes, then you can just straight replace this one. Otherwise we'll need to work out how we want to change the page first (I'm all for improving this page in at least some way though). -Toraen (talk) 04:15, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
 * If we found one or two people to test it and comment how they feel about the energy (imo it's not great, but ok) that would probably help a lot for this decision. --Krschkr (talk) 15:06, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I haven’t taken much time to test out P dagger builds, but I can already tell I’d really like the existing vetted build to be improved Juniper real (talk) 02:54, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
 * IAU and Asuran Scan are needed for dagger spam builds. Any build that does not have room for both of those skills should certainly not be listed as the standard version. Houroftheowl (talk) 23:18, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
 * If you were willing to use a paragon hero, TOF and Finale could be taken by it instead to free up those slots (a paragon hero will also be in better position to cover your entire party with TOF - as a c-space frontliner you probably will overextend at times). Of course, that's a pretty big opportunity cost for a hero slot. -Toraen (talk) 09:21, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
 * The SF version has some fun offensive/defensive perks with TOF/finale, and as long as GFTE is spammed the energy is do-able. But, it's relatively more susceptible to anti-melee than the existing build, and as long as you're not hitting with your zealous daggs you're not gaining adrenaline, and from there it doesn't take long for the build to simmer and flop. I'm not convinced it's a universal improvement over the existing.Juniper real (talk) 20:19, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Attempt 2
This time with heroic refrain! Above page is updated. --Krschkr (talk) 17:43, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I think the Mainbar should look like this:


 * and with optionals, you have a few different options:


 * --Xanshiz (talk) 17:36, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I've now launched the competitor as Build:P/A Heroic Refrain Daggers. If votes show that heroic refrain is preferable this build will be archived. --Krschkr (talk) 12:16, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Anniversary elite
I think this would still work with the new elite, and that's way higher value. --DefinitelyNotHanz (talk) 15:19, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Would also allow for a stronger attribute split. Amorality (talk) 16:11, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Only downside is that none of the optionals currently listed would work anymore, as the new elite is a PvE skill. I guess "They're on fire!" could take the optional slot but honestly I'm not a fan of that method, I think having 2 "Fall back!" heroes or one necro with Incoming+Fb already takes care of the elite refreshing. --DefinitelyNotHanz (talk) 17:09, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Heroic Refrain is far superior now. You greatly increase your damage output and massively buff your heroes. No energy problems, with 20 leadership each GftE gives 10 energy. I still recommend to keep "they're on fire" because heroes are too inconsistent with shouts. Tjishere90 (talk) 23:09, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * It absolutely works, but uptime on heroes is worse because you are frequently out of shout range. LifeGuardian (talk) 23:33, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * It'll still be an upgrade to the bar even if you only use the refrain on yourself. --Krschkr (talk) 14:13, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I think this dagger spam was inferior to the Soldier's Fury one anyway? I assume that Heroic Refrain has a better damage output than either of them? One argument in favor of the "old" builds, is that you can bring AScan+IAU+TNtF, whereas with this build, you have to choose between AScan and IAU. I assume you'd still prefer Heroic Refrain anyway cause it's so strong. ZStepmother (talk) 14:39, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Yea just archive this one. It's served us well in the meantime, but HR is new meta and is inherently better (soldier's fury too, which is a variant on that page) Willarddog (talk) 19:17, 30 June 2020 (UTC)