Build talk:R/any Ural's Oath Support

"By Ural's Hammer!"
I always liked to bring BuH to hero teams on most of my chars. This is my take on a build revolving around this skill. I'd like to point out that I opted not to put asuran scan in the shown build. That's because uptime of serpent's quickness is very important both in downtimes between engagements and during them. It would definitely be the fourth PvE skill in the queue. (Slupka99 (talk) 19:57, 30 June 2020 (UTC))
 * What team build do you normally run this with? I would imagine some sort of mercenary mesmerway with more damage dealers who don't depend on buffs would benefit most. Atleast 4, if not 5 mesmers sounds like it would be super Willarddog (talk) 21:15, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Indeed, I run mercenary mesmerway with 5 mesmers, ST and BiP. So far I took it to some general PvE, UW and FoW HM. Didn't finish those (FoW thanks to going afk near enemies with a dead team, UW because of my incompetence) but I was able to cut through enemies considerably smoother than usually. Enemies tended to ignore me using this build, so I could reliably revive my party even when I carelessly pulled the world. I am so used to mesmerway that I forgot to consider impact on any other compositions. (Also I hope I replied here the right way. I am not really used to wiki talk page.) (Slupka99 (talk) 21:49, 30 June 2020 (UTC))
 * well, mesmerway is definitively the way to go. BUH! revives at maximum energy, which plays well to energy-hungry mesmers. Additionally, mesmers require zero setup, meaning they can fight the moment they are rezzed. A mid-fight BUH! poses no issues to a mesmerway team. I would wonder if a mesmerway team can run an even more aggresive composition due to the fact that BUH! indirectly acts as a battery. You can run 2x Spiritual Pain + Power Drain + Drain enchantment, and 2x with death pact signet (BUH cancels out the downsides, and it has faster activation and revives with more energy), and one ineptitude with command, and ST with command. It's almost like a poor-mans heroic refrain. I think that this build could work really well as a team build, as well as on its own merit in a player team comp maybe Willarddog (talk) 02:32, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I also think that the last 4 skills on the bar may not be completely necessary. I think the synergy between shadow sanctuary and determined shot is really cool, but I doubt if it's really worth bringing. If oath shot is that important to hit, then just simply don't miss. Longbow at the start of the fight (before you've agro'd) should never miss, and mid fight you simply just need to hit any stationary caster, or walk up right next to a melee mob. Antidote is covered by MBaS on hero and expose defenses is replaced with A-Scan.
 * I also fail to see the importance of Serpent's Quickness. Oath Shot recharges in 25 seconds, which is enough time to recharge BUH! before it ends, so you can re-BUH! your mesmers. It also seems like a waste of 2 slots.
 * (edit): I think I see now, as sometimes you'll have to cast BUH! when traveling, and you might not have an enemy to shoot immediately with oath shot in order to decrease the recharge of BUH! However, I think you can drop dwarven stability, and drop all wilderness survival too.
 * After all this, you're left with 4 skills: A-Scan, Oath Shot, BUH!, and Serpent's Quickness. You also only need 8 expertise (a buffer in case of weakness) to activate Oath Shot successfully. Now you have a large amount of attributes and 4 skill slots, including 1 PvE slot, to work with:


 * Ideally, you'll want to run something which will allow you to stay in earshot of your heros, so going dagger spam might not work best. You can really do anything which allows you to stay in range of heros, from bow attacks to spirit spam (lower cost via expertise!). However, with 3-5 mesmers dealing +33% damage, as a ranger character you really can't expect to bring much to the team in terms of damage. This is what I suggest:


 * This way you can keep your mesmers alive better during those 30 seconds, without having to worry about wasting BUH! mid-fight to rez a few mesmers prematurely. Last three slots can be anything, such as flurry, frenzy, "FGJ!", favorable winds, or even determined shot still. There's also Pin Down (to help land oath shot) and sloth hunter's shot for damage. In Wilderness Survival, Natural Stride can work as a cancel stance for frenzy (and is particularly useful if being targetted by melee, or if you want to get in close to secure an oath shot), and you don't need to really invest much to serve that purpose. Alternatively, you can go /P and bring command skills to help out your team.
 * There is a lot you can do with this. All in all, fascinating idea! Willarddog (talk) 03:02, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Now, I managed to write this reply shortly before you posted your edit and new message. I hope you don't mind I kept it in the original location. Feel free to move it: Thank you so much! I totally agree that Antidote Signet is not neccessary. I originally intended it to remove blind after using shadow sanctuary + determined shot, but the attack speed is too slow for the 5s blind to really matter when firing Oath Shot. Even more if shadow sanctuary isn't taken at all and you can always micro MBaS. Expose Defenses is of course overshadowed with Asuran Scan in every aspect. Curiously, so far while testing the build I have never used either expose defenses or asuran scan on a single enemy. It might had been that I wasn't in a location requiring it, but so far I could always target an unprotected enemy in the given time frame. Nearly all oath shot failures I have suffered were obstructions/dodges (and they happened more often than I like to admit) when I misjudged the positioning (firing uphill or from bridges) or foes started their patrol at the worst time when engaging with longbow. At those moments I could usually rely on determined shot to give myself a second try. Especially with obstructions, I could just hit determined shot right after disable ran out.
 * The sanctuary-determined shot combo therefore wasn't required in most cases, but determined shot alone felt really useful. Sanctuary's power shined when I tried to aggro several huge groups that would mean a certain wipe for regular mesmerway. You can perform Sanctuary-DeterminedShot-OathShot-BUH! combo in less than 10 seconds, which was roughly how long it took for the enemy team to cut through my mesmers. I was able to keep my team alive for roughly 40 seconds until I ran out of energy, at which point the mesmer AOEs reduced the sizable group to something manageable. (Now that I think about it, if I microed BiP on myself, I might have been able to keep it up forever.) So I think it is worth to consider sanctuary at least as an option. For inexperienced rangers like me might determined shot be more important than even Asuran Scan. I haven't played too much as an imbagon so I can't really grasp how powerful SY would be. Quick calculation says it increases EHP roughly 5 times so it seems like the better option than the combo if I can maintain it at least 3/5 of the time. I'll try to bring it later today or tomorrow.
 * On the topic of Serpent's Quickness... I'd say it is not strictly required on paper, but it is such a gigantic QoL improvement that I'd advocate it is necessary. It reduces BUH! cd to 40 seconds which isn't important during the fight, but is extremely important after. Surprisingly many enemy groups are too far apart do be able to run between them within 40 seconds even with +33% IMS. At those moments you are often forced to let your heroes die until BUH comes out of cd. And it is a lot of difference if you have to wait 10s or 30s for BUH! to recharge. (Many times you leave a fight with roughly 10s or less of remaining BUH uptime and fully recharged BUH. Giving you 40 seconds to freely move between groups.) Another helpfusl factor is the ability to reduce recharge of Oath Shot itself. The reduced 16 second cooldown will safely give you two opportunities to attack with Oath Shot during BUH! effect where without Serpent's Quickness you'd have only one. (25s cooldown + 4s disable with 14 experitse) If we did all three things: lowered expertise, didn't bring Serpent's Quickness and had no way of recharging Oath Shot on demand, I am afraid the build would become unfeasible. I'll try to test more without Dwarven Stability, since that skill really is only QoL for QoL skill.
 * So my suggestion would now be
 * or even
 * with Asuran Scan as an optional. I'll also try a variant without Determied Shot later, to see if I can be careful enough not to need it. Also, your suggestion of even more agressive mesmerway sounds great. (Slupka99 (talk) 14:37, 1 July 2020 (UTC))


 * 8+1 Expertise, 10+1+1 Wilderness Survival, 12 Command. This is probably the ideal build, as it features "WSR!" as an emergency button if you can't get BUH! off mid-fight, or if you simply can't be bothered to maintain BUH! at any given moment. You can also perma maintain SYG! with serpent's quickness in fights, and better loop FB! with your ST. This also means you don't need to bring command on your ineptitude mesmer, which just means more damage! EBSoW is there to further buff mesmers. Since your mesmers are only alive for 30 seconds, fitting in as many spell casts as possible within that time is key. You could trade out EBSoW for dwarven stability if you really wanted, but oath shot will recharge serpent's quickness too.Willarddog (talk) 13:06, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * There is also the idea of a team build with 2 players with BUH! and 6 mesmers. One player would be ST, another would be BiP Resto.Willarddog (talk) 14:32, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Now this really looks powerful! I'd still raise expertise (at least by one point) with rune to hit breakpoint on disabled time, energy cost and to be safe from weakness at the same time. A better rune could probably be used too. I am not sure how much aggro do shouts draw, but I believe hero DPS will leave you mostly free of pressure around max HP anyway. The right side of the bar looks a little energy intensive... But WSR sounds awesome as panic/convenience button and is definitely nice to have, I am just worried about having 25 energy in the middle of fight. But it should be hopefully manageable by microing BiP or wearing a caster weapon for a moment :) I also never had too good success with Wisdom standard, but that was probably because of mesmer's high energy consumption that is less of an issue here. Also, I'd still conisder having asuran scan coupled with determined shot as 2 optionals for the slot. Overall, it looks really neat and I'll try how it fares tomorrow.
 * ST + BiP dual team with BUH feels insane, I always wanted to try something similar, but it never occured to me that you'd gain an extra mesmer slot that way. (Slupka99 (talk) 15:26, 1 July 2020 (UTC))
 * Ideally you would use a staff to cut down recharge + cast time on EBSoW potentially, as well as having larger maximum energy pool. You're not really spamming your skills at all, and with a BiP being cast on you when you hit half energy, you shouldn't have any problems with being able to cast "WSR!" as an emergency button. Here's some more reasoning on why I think command is best: With taking SY!, there aren't really any other good options warrior gives to either you or your team. You're stuck bringing meh options. You also have to sacrifice EBSoW for it. Being your bar as it is, you want to stay as central to your mesmers as possible. With command, you can perma maintain "SYG!" and you can drop command from your ineptitude mesmer, and bring fallback on the ST to round out your party-wide IMS. "WSR!" is also just too good for this bar as an emergency button. If anything, if you wanted to bring determined shot, I would replace "Fall Back!" and just bring it on your ineptitude, like normal. Hero's are better at cycling FB! anyways. Willarddog (talk) 15:30, 5 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Bar to describe above comment. You could bring Command on Ineptitude like normal, and bring either one of the Rez skills listed + an optional, or "WSR!" like previously shown. Willarddog (talk) 14:35, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Initial Tests
Ran this just yesterday since it's probably one of the more unique ranger builds I've seen. With three mesmers you basically add another mesmer hero's worth of damage, having mercs would be even better. I did run this on vanquishes, which is obviously where it is weakest (you will miss groups and have to corpse drag your DPS while searching), but I was still pretty happy with the results. Notes on specific variants:
 * Shadow Sanctuary: you'd have to temporarily disable condition removal on your backline to make this reliable. I ended up dropping this because doing that seemed to be more hassle than it was worth.
 * "Save Yourselves!": even with Volley, charging this is very slow and uptime can be pretty bad.
 * IAS: While using SQ, your only IAS options are Rapid Fire (doesn't work with Volley, 2 sec cast) and NRA (requires pet and PvE slot), both with serious downsides. Stuff can die fast enough with the damage buff that sometimes I really wish I had an IAS for Oath Shot though (and I always want to use Oath under SQ).
 * Determined Shot: best used with obstructions. Trying to combo with Shadow Sanctuary is frustrating. Not a necessary skill most of the time, but you'll be glad you have it when you miss an Oath Shot.
 * IAU!: I found some areas with spammable knockdowns that were interrupting oath shot, this removes the problem. Maintainable during combat and the increased armor reduces focus and pressure on you.
 * Ascan: Helpful where I was vanquishing, but not mandatory. Probably should be mainbar regardless as landing Oath Shot is so important.
 * Dwarven Stability: didn't run this but didn't really see a need to. It would be completely superfluous in combat and a minor help outside of it. If it wasn't a PvE-only skill it'd maybe be worthwhile here.

Didn't test the paragon variants yet. SYG will obviously be weaker than SY but the maintainability will probably be a welcome improvement and having WSR will probably help immensely for when a backline character goes down (having certain ones under the timer of BuH is less than ideal). I did notice that the team would experience some problems if someone got 'desynced' from the others by dying early (and thus ending up under a different BuH timer). Sometimes I would just wait out all their timers when this happened to resync them.

Quickening Zephyr + Summon Spirits might be a viable on /Rt variants, replacing SQ. Your party would need to take the increased energy costs into account. Long cast time does make me kind of wary but there's plenty of time in combat where you aren't doing much. -Toraen (talk) 01:11, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The "SY!" + Volley variant was simply the first thing to pop into my head, but from experience with playing a barrage ranger (not fun, terrible skill, should be buffed to nearby range), spamming volley/barrage to fund SY is a pitiful existence. I quickly moved onto Paragon instead. I stated why I think it's preferable above, which you've obviously gleaned from already/
 * If you want to take an IAS for Oath Shot, I think that Rapid Fire could potentially be slotted in given you aren't taking Volley + "SY!" (which as we both now have said, is bad). If Rapid Fire is really only being used for Oath Shot, you don't need to invest much into marksmanship. The reasoning to bring it along is only to secure Oath Shot, similarly to A-Scan.
 * I considered a /Rt variant earlier, focusing mainly on communing spirits, but I quickly dropped that too because they just seem pointless compared to overpowered BUH! mesmers. However, I failed to consider ranger spirits like you've mentioned.
 * If you want to go /Rt for and bring along Summon Spirits, you might want to consider Favorable Winds as well for the faster arrow speed to better secure oath shots. This way you can bring Rapid Fire too for IAS if wanted.
 * One really funky variant, is in areas/dungeons with lots of elemental damage, is to take Winter and bring Mantra of Frost on the Mesmers for both energy management + defense.
 * Quickening Zephyr seems like a really promising idea. The energy costs will definitely have to be tested, but for the mesmers it shouldn't be an issue with 1/2 recharge insp. spells. The BiP shouldn't really be affected that badly, and the ST should be able to manage (hopefully). For shorter, >30 second fights (one BUH! duration) it should be fine, but longer engagements might struggle more. If you want something like QZ, but easier to work with, I'd just bring along EBSoW.
 * QZ bar:


 * Optional is for either Rapid Fire or Favorable Winds. Each have their pros and cons.
 * Rapid Fire:
 * Pros: IAS for quicker activation time; easier time to get in a clutch Oath Shot before something dies
 * Cons: Short duration; will have to be recast often which is annoying
 * Favorable Winds:
 * Pros: 2x arrow speed for less chance of "Dodge" or "Miss"; long duraton + synergy with Summon Spirits
 * Cons: Long cast time; buffs enemy arrow fire.


 * Lastly, if rapid fire is deemed that useful, and if bringing a rez for the sake of your backline is deemed that important, then this would be the new mainbar, with QZ being a variant bar:


 * Optional is "WSR!" for an instant Rez. -- Willarddog (talk) 14:35, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Drop Oath Shot?
SQ lowers CD of QZ. QZ lowers recharge of BUH! to 30s. You only need QZ to be alive long enough to use BUH! twice, meaning you need a minimum of 8 Wilderness Survival. QZ will be recharged before the 3rd cast of BUH!, allowing you to cycle BUH! indefinately. This lets you run as R/Rt or Rt/R.

You could potentially drop Summon Spirits and just run SQ+QZ on Any/R. This frees up your Primary, your elite, and 2 PvE slots:

Make sure to always equip a staff when you cast QZ in order to have the BiP auto-BiP you when you drop under 50% energy due to casting QZ if you're a martial class.

Another point is that there are really no downsides to having the entire team (mesmers + backline) dying from BUH!. You'll just rez them instantly all at once, and they'll all be full energy, making QZ more affordable, and at full health (you won't need healers to be alive beforehand). You don't want to rez individual heros mid-fight, as if you do it with BUH! you'll have heros on different timers, and if you use a hard rez like FoMF then they won't have BUH!. Therefore, it might be easier logistically to just let them die if they die and they'll come back when you BUH! everyone. You can always switch out the 5th mesmer for another backline if you're concerned about dying. However, with 4 esurge + Inept, I doubt it.

Additionally, recharge is capped at half, so (unless I'm incorrect) there's no point for 40/40 sets, meaning you can run +60HP/+15 energy staffs for dual superiors + major insp, and higher max energy to help with QZ. Potentially full radiants on the whole team. Willarddog (talk) 19:00, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * There is also the possibility of adding QZ to the ST, disable and micro of course. This is only if your not a ranger or rit, i.e. you can't bring summon spirits. Willarddog (talk) 21:26, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Possible QZ mainbars for Ranger + Rit
-Toraen (talk) 06:06, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Proof of concept video test
Not my video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GmqidM9164&feature=youtu.be

Misty here is using the SoS QZ BUH build, but it shows BUH being used regardless. EVAS is shown pretty effectively here; you want to minimize the chances of your mesmers dying early on in fights as it is annoying AF to get them back onto the BUH cycle. Casting EVAS helps out a ton here. I've added it as an optional for now, but it is much stronger than several other optionals there. Willarddog (talk) 07:29, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Any/Me Echo BUH!
[build prof=Any/Me][Arcane Echo][Echo]["By Ural's Hammer!"][Optional][Optional][Optional][Optional][Optional][/build] casting skill order = 1,2,3,1,2,1 How to use:
 * Pre-cast (1) -> (2)
 * Cast (3) as your first BUH! Rez
 * 3-5 seconds later cast (1) -> (2) (throwaway BUH!)
 * Cast (1) as your second BUH! Rez after the first one wares off
 * Repeat

Arcane Echo is needed because Echo & BUH! both have 30 second uptimes, meaning that if you Echo "BUH!", the Echo copy will expire right when the initial BUH wears off. However, when you [Arcane Echo] [Echo], the [Arcane Echo'd] [Echo] will be copied for 20 seconds (Arcane Echo copy duration). However, when you cast the [Arcane Echo'd] [Echo], [Echo] will copy whatever skill for 30 seconds, instead of reverting back to Arcane Echo after the original 20 seconds has transpired. Your second BUH cast is done to essentially delay your second BUH! Rez past 30 secondsArcane Echo will not go on cooldown until the [Arcane Echo'd] [Echo] has expired, meaning that potentially 50 seconds could go by until Arcane Echo actually goes on cooldown (for 20s). You want to cast your [Arcane Echo'd] [Echo] 3-5 seconds after your initial chain so that Arcane Echo can come off cooldown atleast 5 seconds before your second BUH! Rez expires 60 seconds in.

Willarddog (talk) 22:28, 9 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Some notes/questions for Any/Me BUHway:

- For the any/Me echo BUH builds, what should be the focus of the rest of the bar? Offense? Defense? Self-preservation? - With rez spells on the team, do you keep them disabled? - Bbviously if the BiP or ST goes down mid-fight you want them rezzed ASAP, by a mesmer preferably - Ts it completely necessary for the player to carry a rez? Maybe even just rez sig? Not all prefessions can access a hard rez. - If the player dies, how does that affect the echo chain? Is it screwed? Or are you rezzed back with everything properly "echo'd" (given you are rezzed before they expire)

Melee players: - Also, would you even want to play melee as sin/derv/war? I think it's kind of a waste to try and spec the build for melee support; you're just loosing too much mesmer damage. I guess this depends if the player dying is THAT big of a deal, not that you'd die often at all as a melee player unless you shadow step in. - Assassins can dagger spam without too much issue, albeit you're losing out on SoH and Splinter Weapon (ST should be bringing fallback, unless you bring fallback on an esurge and SoH on ST) - It's probably not worth even walking into battle as a melee warrior; what would you run? Your initial Echo chain costs 35 energy, which requires a staff anyways (which would trigger a BiP cast on you, which is nice). You're limited to only sword, axe, or hammer, none of which are that powerful as adrenaline based builds with no elite. You're likely best off equipping a spear (strength spear if you can!) and just focus on spamming "SY!" - Dervishes seem pretty limited playing scythe with no elite either. Playing teardowns seems like a big stretch. You're likely best off backlining as a derv healer.

Ranged martial players: - Paragon CAN play BUHway for variety, but HR is likely much stronger. Regardless, you can either spec motigon (lol) or command support with minor damage (free up fallback possibly on your inept or ST? Maybe) - Ranger is likely the most mediocre of the three, but you have some funky options. You can bring a pet (make it tanky!), play a turret ranger (probably best), or play Ignite Arrows + EBsoH + Triple/Dual Shot for some okayish AoE. You COULD, in more heavy elemental areas, bring Winter and put Mantra of Frost on your mesmers, for additional defense and some minor energy gain. You're probably better off using either the QZ-based R/Rt or Oath Shot+Command builds above, which better play to a ranger's strengths

- Otherwise, any martial class can just play fake mesmer, and focus on skills with a short cast time and energy cost. - The caster professions are likely able to play some sort of nerfed version of the builds they already play.
 * Willarddog (talk) 01:04, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * For ranger, I'd much rather take Oath Shot or a QZ build than go /Me. Echo chaining BuH is kinda restrictive and easier to mess up (say if you have to micro heroes for a bit to keep them out of something dangerous). With Oath Shot you pretty much always have BuH ready in combat and can freely focus on other things. With QZ, it's trivial to set up (and once you kill a boss you can start perma-QZ off the morale boost, making it even simpler and further improving the effectiveness of your team). Ignite Arrows builds actually kind of suck to use. They absolutely need EBSoH and have a lot of prep time for a spike that is merely OK (and will cause scatter, hindering your midline's effectiveness). Lacking a strong elite that directly ties into the Ignite usage makes it not worth taking imo.
 * Paragon will just do much better with Heroic Refrain; I could not recommend that a paragon try chaining BuH instead.
 * I feel that melee profession players wouldn't really be well-served by a BuHway. If trying for a nerfed melee build, my question would be, "why?". Increasing the damage of the midline at the expense of their own damage potential doesn't make much sense (and the buffing heroes that melee relies on don't benefit from BuH). Trying to go into melee range also may place you out of range of some of your heroes that you've BuH'd. I don't think anyone would enjoy running a W/Me fake mesmer either. Its damage output would pale in comparison to the midline (even before factoring BuH) and be entirely reliant on BiP (you will not have 100% BiP uptime). We should avoid trying to over-genericize this idea, as on some professions it will just be unacceptably weak IMO.
 * All that said, we should probably make a separate page for the echo build(s). Possibly the Oath-less QZ builds should be on their own page as well. -Toraen (talk) 05:24, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I completely agree with the immediately preceding statements above. On my userpage I'm starting to work on the any/Me bars, but any/Me needs to be it's own page too. I also agree with QZ. I saw that you already did that with the QZ builds, and updated this one, which is nice. The only downside is that the discussion is spread out between the Rt/R and R/Rt, but at least now the discussion can be more specific and less general.


 * I agree with pretty much all your other points. I'm not saying you didn't, but reading my wall of text shows that our thoughts are largely the same; I feel you're simply just coming to the same conclusions I did but in your own words. Assassin is really the only melee player that can still run it's primary build (dagger spam) and still echo chain, but your point with being in range of your midline to BUH! still stands, and is one I'm concerned about. The other professions have to do something different. Warrior has to do SY! spam, Derv has to heal, and ranger likely has better options (as you pointed out) and paragon should run HR, which I also stated is stronger. Fake mesmer is by all means unappetizing for any primary class.


 * I think that the classes which would benefit most from any/Me are casters. They trade their elite for 33% more damage on 5 mesmer heros. Most casters can function without their elite, and with the exception of assassin dagger spam, most melee players cannot.
 * Mesmers: You're lacking E-Surge, but otherwise little changes. Domination magic. Maybe Arcane Mimicry for esurge? Maybe, but sounds meh.
 * Elementalists: Run attunement with any element you want, + PvE skills. Can go offensive, defensive, or supportive.
 * Necro: This one I think is interesting. You can run curses with defile/desecrate enchantments for AoE damage, Chilblains + Angorodon's gaze vs heavy enchantments, Death Magic and minions+EBSoH, or something centered around or containing Necrosis.
 * Rit: Do rit things? Spirits, Channeling stuff, Resto backline. Seems more promising for player-oriented teams.
 * Monk: backline. This might be new meta for monk players + 7 heros.


 * One very interesting thing I want to point out is that any/Me Echo BUH effectively forces you to play your primary profession. Just an interesting footnote. Willarddog (talk) 22:16, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I did read your comments, I just like stating my views in my own words. In particular for assassin, I know that P/A dagger spammers have trouble staying in shout range of all heroes. It's unexpectedly limiting in mobility to attempt (though if you only BUH your DPS heroes, it'd probably be easier).
 * We might end up remerging the R/Rt and Rt/R, I just separated them to give each more breathing room to see if they could differentiate themselves (and I'm too lazy to make having them on the same page neat wrt optionals). Other pages in similar situations are split, I'm sure there's at least one example where a similar situation is merged. It'll depend on how the final builds look. -Toraen (talk) 23:19, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * "(though if you only BUH your DPS heroes, it'd probably be easier)" That's the idea, yea. With regards to the split, I see it kinda like any/A dagger spam, which we just got rid of. Each page has it's own options, variables, and slight differences that warrant their own page. I think 2 separate pages is better; I reckon they might end up showing to have slightly different strengths after some long-term testing. Regardless, I don't think these will be full-vetted for awhile. So much to test and consider. Willarddog (talk) 23:58, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Examples of Any/Me Builds:

I have yet to make more (mainly ele, choose any element, have fun; and dervish, play backline healer/prot; rit can backline, Paragon can do paragon things, and assassins... just play a normal team comp w/ dagger spam. Mesmer can use Dom spells), but here are some examples of what you would run on a Any/Me bar. Ideally extra backline support or crowd control is better, but some bars can bring some respectable damage such as necros and mesmers. EVAS should be mainbar; the exception is SY! spamming warrior (To The Limit! to charge SY instantly at start) and Pet Ranger. EVAS helps immensely to not have a mesmer hero explode within 5 seconds of the fight because they got aggro first. Willarddog (talk) 19:19, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Assassins Promise
Could that work? I mean you need to be able to kill an enemy to recharge BUH, but killing enemies in this team comp shouldn't be too difficult. Perhaps if you were afraid of not having any enemies to cast it on (such as when traveling), would it be possible to somehow bring a minion spell on a mesmer which could turn masterless when the mesmers die, allowing you do to easily kill it with AP recharging BUH? Willarddog (talk) 13:25, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Difficulty with AP (on professions that can't access SQ) is that possibility of a 30 second downtime. In theory your proposed method could work (and it'd actually help this page's build too), but it does create the need to micro a skill after every fight. I really wouldn't want a mesmer spending precious time in combat on low-level minions. One 'dead' skill on the mesmer isn't great in vacuum, but the QZ builds propose a second disabled copy of QZ on a mesmer to similar effect (and it works well) so I'd say the idea has some potential. However it does only extend the between combat range by 1 BUH as opposed to being an indefinite solution. That's probably fine in most cases but something to worry about. -Toraen (talk) 17:32, 27 August 2020 (UTC)


 * I'll lay out a more descriptive pros + cons of AP BUH compared to QZ, Echo, and Oath Shot BUH, now that I've worked through the idea a bit:
 * Pros:
 * Universality: AP can be used by all primary classes, some very effectively; AP can be used in a large variety of locations and situations: i.e. missions, speed-clears, Vanquishing, general PvE.
 * Efficiency: AP more or less works on its own, requiring less skills to make it work, is energy efficient compared to QZ or Echo + Arcane Echo, MUCH shorter cast time and/or setup, less vulnerable to interrupts (shortest cast time option), invulnerable to "missing" as with Oath Shot.
 * Versatility: AP gives the player much more choice, and can adapt much better to any given scenario. You can really run any well-established, tried-and-true AP bar and just add BUH to it. Being able to spam EVAS more is a large boon to defense. You are also much more mobile. AP lends itself to running around quickly killing targets. Echo and QZ do not, as you focus much more on setup.
 * Simplicity: AP is the easiest method to chain BUH in terms of execution. You don't have to worry about timing your QZ chains or echo chains, or positioning for Oath Shot. With AP you just have to kill something; which you are already doing anyways
 * Damage: While QZ does supercharge your mesmers, AP allows the player to bring much more damage to the table compared to oath shot and Echo. AP is already "meta" too (albeit it's on the way out, there are now better damage options for almost every class compared to AP). One boon to AP BUH is AP calling in general. AP calling helps heros to target better, such as hitting your centrally positioned target to deal more consistent AoE. AP calling also pairs well with 4 domination mesmers (e-surge/spiritual pain MELTS called targets, arguably better than discord ever did)


 * Cons:
 * "What if AP is removed, lapses, or interrupted?": If you face hex removal, bring cover hexes (assassins have plenty of cheap, 1/4s cast time cover hexes to choose from). If AP expires because you didn't kill the enemy, git gud. if it's interrupted, git gud, bring anti-interrupt. AP is the LEAST vulnerable to interrupts compared to Echo chain BUH and QZ.
 * Skill choice: This one is the "least" offensive of the cons. AP calling lends itself to spamming PvE skills, and bringing BUH means you have to drop something else. You're also locked into assassin secondary, which for a caster player might have limited utility compared to Echo BUH, namely mantra of resolve/concentration for anti-interrupt, or other inspiration skills for energy management. On the flip side, AP is likely a much better option for classes like derv/sin/war/ranger than Echo BUH, especially assassin. AP caller assassin has never been that great compared to dagger spam, but BUH potentially makes AP much more viable for sins. Because you only need to be in the center of your heros to cast BUH, AP can also enable melee-oriented classes to stay melee. AP works pretty nice on both ranger and sin dagger spam, and can WORK for warrior and derv (albeit they have better options for damage).


 * Uptime: This is the largest concern, because AP in of itself cannot indefinitely chain BUH without an enemy to kill. Most of the time though, this shouldn't be an issue. If you're not killing something, you better be walking towards something to kill. Still, there are obviously times when 30 seconds (or more; AP often recharges BUH quickly after using it, giving you potentially 50 seconds of travel time. For example, enter fight -> AP kill (recharge BUH) -> BUH lapses at some point mid fight-> cast BUH -> AP kill -> BUH is recharged and ready for next use (even though you're only ~5 seconds into the current BUH). You now have 25 seconds remaining on the current BUH, and then 30 seconds on the next BUH (which is already recharged thanks to AP), giving you maybe ~50+ seconds give or take to get to the next fight and kill something. If this is not enough to get to the next AP victim, There are a few ways to remedy this:


 * 1) Bring Animate Bone Horror on an esurge mesmer with minimal attribute investment (the leftovers). This is not an issue because you don't want rez spells on your mesmers; simply replace FoMF with Bone Horror. Micro him to create one after a fight (only 1.5s cast). @0 death magic, a Bone Horror will die after 35 seconds (40s @1, 43s @2) from natural degeneration alone. This duration can obviously be shortened by damage (enemies or environmental, the latter might make this difficult in many dungeons or in kourna around garrisons), or prolonged via healing (BiP direct heals, Life expiring, Recuperation, "Fall Back!"). Regardless, under vanilla circumstances, 35 seconds is plenty of time. BUH will always expire on the Me/N hero before the minion does under normal conditions, turning it masterless, giving you time to cast AP and kill it to recharge BUH. You can't chain it indefinitely, and it doesn't work in areas lacking corpses, but this option is a very easy way to extend traveling distance for AP BUH with only 1 minor skill swap on 1 mesmer hero. Recommended in the majority of scenarios. The following modifications are possible, but probably too much micro effort to be worth pulling off:
 * 1)a): Bring Animate Bone Minions over Bone Horror on one mesmer, and Verata's Gaze on another. After one BUH lapse, kill one minion, recharge BUH, rez your mesmers, and micro the Verata's Gaze esurge to recapture the other bone minion. This method requires more micro, but it gives you a total of 60 extra seconds of travel time.
 * 1)b): Bring 2 copies of Animate Bone Horror, and 1 copy of Verata's Gaze. This has the same result as 1)a), but the minions will be tankier and it will be easier to pull off.


 * 2) Bring QZ on one mesmer. This is slower, but easier than the minion method. Micro your QZ esurge to cast QZ before the mesmers will die, enabling you to cast BUH under the effects of QZ. This will allow you 30 more seconds of travel time. You can combine this with the minion method above.
 * 2)a) Bring QZ on two mesmers. This is the slowest method, but it allows you to travel long distances indefinitely when using AP would not be possible. You will probably want to make this your standard bar, because you can rest assured that if it comes to it, you can chain BUH indefinitely. In the majority of situations I doubt you'll have to do this often at all, but having it as a fail-safe seems nice.Willarddog (talk) 04:29, 30 August 2020 (UTC)