Archive talk:D/A Mystic Speeder

I have added the bare bones outline of the build and usage notes. If I have time I will flesh it out a bit later today. If someone else wishes to do that, you are more than welcome to. Kelvin Greyheart 13:09, 19 January 2008 (EST)
 * OK. I have a rudimentary multipurpose usage section up.  Is this ready to move into testing?  If I don't have any answer within about 36 hours I will go ahead and bump it into testing.  It can always be moved back after all.  Kelvin Greyheart 23:42, 19 January 2008 (EST)


 * Well please, we already have one of these Archive:D/A Dark Silence Runner--Goldenstar 23:56, 19 January 2008 (EST)
 * That's what I am asking. Is it different enough to warrant another page?  The usage is a bit different, and whereas the other build focuses on stances for running buffs and only has signet of mystic speed as an optional skill for 3 running skills, the sig is this builds sole run bonus.  Personally I think this one is a bit better, but I can see why someone would want to use the dark silence one.  It doesn't require enchantment juggling as much, although with the nerf/buff to chilblains that isn't as much of an issue as it once was.  From a standpoint of which can take more hits before going down, the silence one may use dark escape as an effective anti spike, but this build has more continuous durability due to the permanent conviction.  Also, this build isn't effected by stance removal which makes running through Mursaat easier, not that it is that difficult with anything other than an uninfused level 10.  *shrug*  IDK.  The build works, and at the very least should be incorporated as a variant of the other.  My 2 cents says give it its own page since the compression of the run buffs opens up several variants allowing a Dervish to run a few things the dark silence concept can't really do with a high rate of success for your average runner, even when modified.  Things like running through Icedome for grotto runs. If the community decides to reject this, that is its decision.  Kelvin Greyheart 00:21, 20 January 2008 (EST)

Testing
I bumped this into testing. As Goldenstar mentioned above, there is already a similar build. I have been using this build since GWEN pre-release weekend. It is very durable, quick, and able to run through difficult areas. I have a video (a poor one I freely admit) of the run through Ice Dome here, which while not impossible with the dark silence runner is quite difficult in comparison. With that said, I ask that people give it a real testing before simply saying its the same thing. It shares 4 skills of the base bar, 3 of which are on practically every single dervish running build to date (regen, stability, VoS). Again, I do not know whether this deserves its own page or not, but at the very least it deserves to be mentioned as a variant to the other one for users who have GWEN. Kelvin Greyheart 08:13, 21 January 2008 (EST)

Runes
never bring a major/minor rune on a runner unless you're a primary assassin using shadow form. also, dark silence is faster Invincible Rogue 15:55, 30 January 2008 (EST)
 * I think you meant major/superior. Regardless, while I agree that superior is usually a bad idea in general, I hardly find that using a major rune is a problem.  I almost never have either intervention trigger.  Sure you have less health, but you have a significant improvement in armor with conviction.  As for speed, lets compare.
 * Assumption: 1 second at 100% = 1 unit of travel.
 * Dark silence runner runs on a 30 second run cycle. 6 seconds at 150% and 24 seconds at 125%.  Multiply that out and you get 6*1.5 + 24*1.25 = 39 units in 30 seconds, or 1.3 units per second for an average run buff of 30%
 * Signet of mystic speed runs on a 15 second run cycle. 15 Seconds at 133%  Multiply it out and you get 19.95 or 1.33 units per second.
 * Conclusion: Signet of mystic speed is faster.  This of course assumes no aftercast delay on the signets part.  However due to an oddity in the way the game behaves it is possible to quickly tap a key in any direction and bring the aftercast delay to well under a quarter of a second.  I have also assumed that the character's player is perfect, and that the runner activates every stance exactly as the other one ends maximizing the possible speed boost.  In practice, most runners overlap by half a second, which results in approximately 1-2 seconds of running without a speed boost.  It does not matter if they don't activate until the other one ends, or if they activate while the other is still active, there is downtime.  With that said, it is very close, but claiming that the dark silence runner is in fact faster, or as some people have pmed me in game significantly faster, is in fact in err. Kelvin Greyheart 15:18, 31 January 2008 (EST)
 * I also did not take into account the fact that the dark silence runner can be used without any enchantments for certain sections of the run. Signet of mystic speed requires enchantments, which since the nerf/buff to chilblains are not a true handicap anymore, more of a nuisance that can be largely ignored outside of hard mode. Kelvin Greyheart 15:37, 31 January 2008 (EST)
 * yes i did mean superior/major oops oh well *lol* and btw, i guess you might be right, i always use the pious haste variant of it which pwns just about anythingInvincible Rogue 19:00, 31 January 2008 (EST)
 * The pious haste variant certainly is fast, though it does take some juggling to keep enchantments up properly. From my own experience I would say that that is a little faster, though this is by far more durable.  If you wish you can drop the major rune in mysticism and not suffer any consequences other than one less hit point when enchantments end ( oh, what a tragedy! ) and one less energy point.  Energy is not an issue with this build either way really, though maintaining everything all the time and using deaths charge on recharge can push your limits a little with 12 mysticism, and 11 is just maintainable if you time things correctly.  If you don't use DC every single time it is a moot point either way.
 * Lets consider this. Generic Dervish runner no. 565,314,719 wishes to make a runner but can only afford a minor vig, or doesn't feel like buying a more expensive one for a running character.  Let us also assume that he buys a major mysticism because it is cheaper (last I checked) than a minor, and blessed insignias because they too are relatively cheap.  He happens to have a spare 18-20% enchantment weapon lying around, but its either a two hand, or he doesn't have a shield.  When running with this build he will have 480+25-35+30 health for a nice round 500 hp.  Not bad, when you consider the lack of +health weapon bonuses.  Now for armor, he has a base 70 + 10 from blessed, and the big +24 from conviction. 104 armor is quite a fair amount when you think about it, and combined with the bucketload of enchantments on this build, his mystic regeneration is going to almost always be healing at 20 health per second, unless he is say... on fire, bleeding, poisoned and diseased all at once, and even then he can still be healing (albeit not that quickly).  He has 126+170+12+12 health in interventions which raise his decent 500 health up a very respectable 320 "virtual" health for a comfortable 820 health on top of his above average armor allowing him to survive those tough spots.
 * Conclusion: While the build obviously works better with the recommended gear, it can be run with countless not quite optimal configurations with only minor and relatively inconsequential drawbacks for a typical forge run since the build's ability to absorb damage is not as dependent on -2 while enchanted shields or other equipment. It benefits from them, but it isn't really important to have anything other than a weapon of enchanting, and even that is debatable.  Kelvin Greyheart 20:32, 31 January 2008 (EST)

Criticisms
--Relyk 11:52, 4 March 2008 (EST)
 * The description is too long.
 * Is the mysticism breakpoint needed, neither Dwarven nor Dark Silence runner need that breakpoint?
 * The variants are different builds, or you'll want to change this to D/any.
 * By doing so, you can list all the possible variants instead, such as: Vital Boon, "I Am Unstoppable!", or Holy Veil.
 * Put the video in Video Footage like the AoD Runner.
 * Mystic Speeder XD. SoMS Runner :D.
 * The little math thing on why SoMS is faster than Dash and Dark Escape was nice.
 * One disadvantage of SoMS is the pause it causes, forcing you to press a key to continue, which might screw people up. Dash would be nice in this build to make up for the tiny pause.
 * Watchful Intervention should be optional.
 * SoMS is in Dark Silence Runner variants, and there is still a full cycle at 10. This means Faithful Intervention and Watchful Intervention aren't needed.
 * etc.
 * First thanks for the input. I shall respond to each of your points in turn to prevent confusion.
 * Yeah, I guess it is. I could cut out a fair amount I guess.
 * As mentioned above, the breakpoint is not needed, but you do gain the advantage of larger heals from the interventions, albeit that is a very minor bonus. 11 will suffice, but major runes are typically much cheaper than minors, and that is why I added it instead.  Also, many new runners typically spam fleeting stability far too often so that extra point of energy really does matter.  I am rather neutral on this point though, so if a couple people say 11, then by all means make it 11.
 * I would hesitate to call them different builds, seeing as they share all but 2-3 skills. However the D/any does make sense. though the variants are for niche areas where hex prevention is more important than shadow stepping.
 * All the variants? Well lets see, vital boon, pious restoration, and I am unstopable are the only ones that generally come to mind.  IMO watchful intervention > vital boon, and if hexes are a problem, go /mo since veil is often better because you can use it while your under VoS should you get hit with say, crippling anguish.  Not to mention that veil in and of itself prevents most hexes by the time VoS gets back up.  I am unstoppable.  Hadn't considered adding that to be honest.  I try to steer clear of title skills when I share builds because they can be of little to no use for some people, but its certainly worth adding as a variant.
 * Mystic speeder. just another one of my many sarcastically silly and sinfully stupid word puns.
 * First thing I do before even trying something is to see if math says its superior, or comparable enough to warrant testing.
 * I have made a note about the SOMS regarding a rapid keytap. This assumes that people use their keyboards to move, which you do in many games.  (Personally I rapidly strafe, often about 2 times a second to allow me to dodge a good half or more of the projectiles when I'm in an area with lots of ranged foes, but not everyone does, and it is by no means required that you do so.  However if you do do that, then its relatively simple to hit the hotkey for SOMS, and be bringing your finger down to strafe a touch so you seldom actually stop)
 * Odd. most people say to drop faithful intervention.  Its nice because it provides a big heal, at 25% and its a long lasting enchantment.  You can replace it with vital boon, and I should add that to the article.  Faithful is nice because it basically adds a free enchant for SOMS, though you often have 4 going anyways so its not needed.
 * SOMS has a full cycle at 10, but how does that relate to faithful/watchful not being needed? Yeah the dark silence doesn't have them, but it has boon, and effectively 3 running skills no matter what combination of variants you generally use.  It doesn't have room to add in both interventions, and its buffs are all stances so you loose conviction.  Basically, it takes more dmg overtime (other than the 10/30 cycle dark escape, and it scrapes out by a few % outside of armor ignoring dmg there, as well as being slower during that 10 second stint.)
 * Thanks for the input. Kelvin Greyheart 19:44, 5 March 2008 (EST)


 * I am not reading all that. I doubt anyone else would either. Short versions plz. ♫Satish♫ Complaint Department  20:44, 6 April 2008 (EDT)

I ran this build a few times to try it out. It can withstand a lot of damage, but running Droks is difficult. Avoiding cripple isn't easy on a droks run and with Mystic Speed stopping you every time you cast it, you end up having to stop a lot. Don't get me wrong, it works, but it seems too tedious for a hard run when you have to stop everytime you cast SoMS.Zoul 00:11, 8 April 2008 (EDT)
 * The trick for using SOMS is NOT to click for movement. Hold down froward (default w) and then press SOMS, and immediately strafe to the right or left (defaults q and e respectively).  This brings the aftercast down, and if timed correctly eliminates it altogether. As far as avoiding cripple goes.  Go around the pinesouls if possible.  This build can take a ton of punishment so running through 3 and 4 groups of grawl at once is not an issue.  Generally speaking you can line it up so you don't get hit with traps, but it does take attentive watching of the positions of the spawns.  Most of the time you can run through the pinesouls without traps hitting you.  If they are really a problem drop an intervention or fleeting stability for I am unstoppable.  That or use one of the D/mo variants, which are as durable.  Kelvin Greyheart 15:39, 26 April 2008 (EDT)

Heya.
nice build. I also made my version long ago, based on the signets concept and it is similar to yours. please check it out: Archive:D/R Antidote VoS Runner. thanks!--Morten 06:08, 8 April 2008 (EDT)
 * ^^^ Hah! owned---Zoul

Stack?
I have a question about Sentry's insignia. If you use them on 4 armor pieces except chest (for +15 health), do they stack and will work like +40 (4x+10) which halves all incomming dmg except armor ignoring damage (http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Avatar_of_Balthazar)?robertjan 04:01, 4 June 2008 (EDT)
 * No. Insignias do not stack.  They are exclusive to each piece of armor.  When you are hit with an attack you have a random chance of being hit on any one piece (based on the material cost.  chest =3/8, legs = 2/8,  others = 1/8).  The damage is calculated for that piece of armor specifically.  So if you had a starting chest piece on with the rest full max, 3/8 of the time you would take more damage.  For specifics see. Damage calculation Kelvin Greyheart 19:34, 4 June 2008 (EDT)

Nerf
Will the build still work well after the change to the sig? Hasaple 19:38, 10 July 2008 (EDT)
 * It will still work, but you can't maintain 33% IMS Evera 23:23, 10 July 2008 (EDT)
 * I'm evaluating reworks to the build, but for now it looks like the dark silence runner is the way to go atm. Perhaps adding in featherfoot grace to maintain stances, allowing you to maintain conviction, but that leaves you vulnerable while casting (not dmg...build effectively ignores that, but to spells, and more specifically, snares).  May need to redo the attribute spread.  I'll get back to this later as I really don't have the time for the next couple of days.  Kelvin Greyheart 12:17, 11 July 2008 (EDT)
 * I was unable to run around the desert comfortably with this build due to the lack of good IMS after the nerf. Sucks too because this was one of my favs =( --Method3 23:30, 14 July 2008 (EDT)

Reworks
[build prof=D/A earthp=11+1+1 Mys=11+1 Win=8+1 sha=3][Signet of Mystic Speed][featherfoot grace][Conviction][Death's Charge][Vow of Silence][I am Unstoppable][Mystic Regeneration][Watchful Intervention][/build] Use featherfoot every other VoS. Due to the timing mechanics (and possibility of a snare while VoS is down) fleeting stability has been swapped for I Am Unstoppable. I need to look into using mindbender as well. Alternatively since the damage absorption is so high with this build, you can tone down earth prayers a bit and go with. [build prof=D/A earthp=7+1 Mys=10+1 Win=12+1+2 sha=4][Signet of Mystic Speed][Conviction][Death's Charge][Vow of Silence][I Am Unstoppable][Mystic Regeneration][Watchful Intervention][Faithful Intervention][/build] Simply renew mystic regeneration with each VoS cycle, or don't even bother with it if you feel confident in making it. Can also add +2 rune instead of +1 for extra energy if you need it.

In both cases I have dropped out fleeting stability for I am Unstoppable because of the timing mechanics involved when using fleeting, regen, and another non stance run buff. The previous concept was to make a strong build for people that did not need pve only skills. However with the nerf I am falling back on them. Now... the real question is should I bother with conviction when I am Unstoppable is there due to the armor stacking cap. Quite honestly that extra 1 point of armor really doesn't do anything, but I am unstoppable can't be maintained. With both interventions however, you really don't need the armor, and nothing stops you from popping I Am Unstoppable if you feel you are in danger regardless of lack of KDs. It just takes forethought about possible future KDs, and cripple.

This needs further looking into on my part, but I thought I would share what I had thought of so far. I will think about this over the next few days and when I get back from a small trip sometime on Friday or Saturday, will tackle the D/mo variants as well. This nerf has not nerfed running in general, or the use of signet of mystic speed, so much as it has reduced the effectiveness of the bar compression that signet of mystic speed allowed. Kelvin Greyheart 18:06, 15 July 2008 (EDT)

Variants Rework & my final version of the D/A
With I Am Unstoppable, there is little reason for conviction. The permanent armor bonus really is unnecessary and just simply timing Unstoppable properly still makes this easy. My final variant for the D/A build is as follows.

[build prof=D/A earthp=11+1+1 Mys=11+1 Win=8+1 sha=3][Enchanted Haste][Dash][Conviction][Death's Charge][Vow of Silence][I am Unstoppable][Mystic Regeneration][Watchful Intervention][/build]

Enchanted haste is not as big of a speed boost as SomS, but it is effectively maintainable, and Dash lets you break aggro very easily. The variant for this is

[build prof=D/A earthp=11+1+1 Mys=10+2 Win=10+1 sha=2][Enchanted Haste][optional][Conviction][Death's Charge][Vow of Silence][I am Unstoppable][Mystic Regeneration][Watchful Intervention][/build]

This is simply an attribute redistribution, and an allowance for an optional. Another shadow step like dark prism, or whatever.

[build prof=D/Mo earthp=11+1+1 Mys=101+1 Win=10+1 prot=1][Enchanted Haste][optional][Holy Veil][Vow of Silence][I am unstoppable][Mystic Regeneration][Watchful Intervention][Faithful Intervention][/build]

This is my rework of the D/mo variants.

The optional can be a condition removal, or hex removal, or pretty much anything. Reverse hex, while expensive, is effective.

Please let me know what you think. Should I add these to the article, and rewrite it for them, or are they too similar to already existing builds on the wiki? In the case that many people think I should add these and rework them, should the already existing votes be removed? Cheers, and happy running Kelvin Greyheart 19:06, 20 July 2008 (EDT)

Why would you use i am unstoppable with conviction when your running USING STANCES to run96.240.137.64 10:20, 30 July 2008 (EDT)


 * There's one problem with the variants, there's no reason to keep Conviction in there. If you're using Enchanted Haste, then using Convinction will cancel the stance and you won't have any IMS. The only armor solution I can think of is to use "IAU!" when entering groups of enemies, and adding Fleeting Stability back in order to prevent knockdowns in certain places for those of us without a high Norn rank. That also leaves an optional slot still once you take out conviction, so they can bring whatever the crap else they want, I would probably go with Dash to easily break aggro.



[build prof=D/A earthp=11+1+1 Mys=10+2 Win=10+1 sha=2][Enchanted Haste][Dash][Fleeting Stability][Death's Charge][Vow of Silence][I am unstoppable][Mystic Regeneration][Faithful Intervention][/build]


 * This is probably the build I'll be using and trying out.


 * D/Mo looks... okay, but is there really a reason to bring Holy Veil? I guess to fall back on if you mis-time VoS or something, but still this build is a lot more effective as D/A due to the ability to shadow step imo. Either way you need to replace the main build on the site with something, as that build gives you a few seconds of no IMS. I'd say put the build with 15 Wind Prayers and SoMS as the main one (since it would still be the same old "Mystic Speeder" just with a few attribute reworks... though I'm kind of concerned about the lack of Fleeting Stability and dependence upon Norn rank... IAU just doesn't cut it as a long anti-KD if you don't have a good rank). A build with Enchanted Haste (probably the second one with the reworks I mentioned) or whatever else you want to put could go as a variant, since it's practically the same build just with a different stance selection. Basically all of the Dervish running builds on here are exactly the same anyway with just a few minor skill differences. I just think this one has great survivability.--71.31.45.223 10:50, 30 July 2008 (EDT)

Archive?
Nerf doesnt make this worth using... suckz poop... Jjberks 16:36, 17 September 2008 (EDT)

Which nerf do you mean? The nerf of SoMS?? Thats been taken care of in one of the above posts. Hope you can do something with it. I use a new variant myself and it works great. (the 15 wind prayer version) Tibart 13:42, 9 October 2008 (EDT)