Build talk:Team - FoW Manly Spike/Archive 3

Merging with caster spike
Can someone please explain to me why we need 3 pages to show what is effectively exactly the same build and exactly the same tactics with different spikers, and why suggesting these pages be merged into one "FoW Speed Clear" page is "stupid"? Paranon15 10:48, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
 * My bet Splinterspike and casterspike are guild only while Manlyway is puggable. Casterspike/Splinterspike relies on much bigger coordination between spikers then Manlyway. Also, Casterspike uses a different Eoe and Splinterspike uses a T3 (atleast was, someone should fix dat) Falrach 11:56, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The only two things people run in fow at the moment are manly spike and mesmer spike, which is arguably better than manly, this begs the question as to why we have shit like splinter spike and roj cryway on here that are less effective than alternatives and that nobody runs. There should either be a page for each spike team so they can be vetted on their own merits, or there should simply be one page detailing basic tactics and giving a few sets of spiker builds, with meta tags on what pugs use, I think that the state of the terra bars on the splinter spike says enough about how inadequate the fow builds currently stored on pvx are. Paranon15 15:21, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Then we should get DWGway up as its superior to both mesmer and manlyway? And Splinterspike's last edit was bout june >_> Falrach 14:39, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Abuse The Dervish Update
New idea to replace 100b with Dervs:

"Sand Shards + Vow of Strength + Whirlwind Attack" 174.48.148.152 01:13, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Enchantment removal. Dervs are still useless for the 100b role. Life Guardian 01:16, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Besides which, no teleport would be instant fail + you would take Chilling victory too. -- [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px]] Chieftain  Alex  02:00, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Turns out that it could potentially hold up if you could manage energy. Looks pretty clunky though. Life Guardian 02:28, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

VoS
Decided that it would probably be worth adding to the page. So far i have this:

Dunno what to put in optional. Conviction is eremite fodder, heart of holy flame for skele cleanup in battlefield and on bridge. Life Guardian 06:36, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
 * you can use HoHF as fodder aswell....so 2 optionals :D Falrach 15:29, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Shield of force is pro, aoe kd and weakness 174.112.9.54 21:18, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
 * They need to hit you for that, which is something you don't want. 83.83.170.254 21:27, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
 * it's still useful at toc, cleanup, forge top and forest, where not everything is balled. Falrach 21:44, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Note, don't change staggering force, it's cracked armor greatly increases the spike damage. Falrach 22:01, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
 * After running it, they tend to hit u on every spike. 174.112.9.54 00:37, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
 * HOHF has no place on this bar. Veil of Thorns can trigger MoP an extra time in addition to the straight damage it does. Staggering Force with Cracked Armor is cool, but the spike damage doesn't really need to be increased... Shield of Force is stupid. Just plain stupid. Waste of a slot that could do something else. Ebon Escape for getting out of traps (or for springing em without even getting hit, if you're good like me). Sand Shards is LOL. The armor vs. earth is high and the damage increase isn't that much, as if you needed it. 100b's have run this build for a LONG time with just 100b and whirlwind, so I don't understand the need to get so fancy with this; if the rest of the team knows what they're doing, it's completely a waste. I'd bring Eternal Aura to have another res (for those OH SHIT moments when the pug monks and rits die) and for increased survivability, Intimidating Aura for the same... If you absolutely have to, bring the damn Sand Shards, but I die a little inside every time I see some noob with it.67.182.24.195 07:04, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Cracked armor says anything to you? and HoHF doubles damage against undead, which most main tanks cant ball correctly. If you have less then 0.1 gramme of brain you dont need EE to trigger traps. SoF is strong everywhere you fight leftovers as most monks suck too hard to keep anything up. Falrach 07:29, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Change Staggering Force
Change,it make scythe deal Earth Damage and it dont trigger MoP and it dont trigger Barbs too..Light Athena II 09:57, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
 * read eremites. it removes staggering right away, inflicting cracked armor on everyone. Also...it doesn't change the damage from vow to earth damage anyway. Falrach 10:31, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Eremite's Attack: Melee Attack. Deals +1...8...10 damage and removes a Dervish enchantment. Removal Effect: Deals +1...8...10 damage and strikes all adjacent foes. It remove a Dervish enchantment RANDOM and it apply the effect..well agree that VoW trigger mop anyway,but why you need weakness if you spike all whit one hit?If some mobs arent killed in a spike its not better focus on extra single damage instead a condition?tbh is a slot wasted...Light Athena II 11:14, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
 * it always removes top enchantment. and Cracked armor, makes it possible to solo all spikes except those in forge caster groups. Falrach 11:22, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Well you dont need cracked armor for 10sec to solo spike things,its not better use something to increase single damage output?i mean..Shadow Warrior for example,according to wiki, have 128 armor vs slash damage that mean they receive xxx damage x 0.3078 = a total reduction of 69% (rounded).With Cracked armor they have 108 al, that mean xxx damahe x 0.4353 = a total reduction of 56% (rounded).The difference is something like 13%... 13% of 100 is 13....its not better use a skill that add over 13 damage instead a condition?I Am the Strongest! at rank 0 for example deal +14 damage for 5 attacks,Victorious Sweep at rank 12 deal +21 damage and heal too and i think there are more too..Light Athena II 11:36, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Why you think 100b has no single target damage, it aint NEEDED. If you dont kill every spike with warriors in 1 big hit your terrible and should uninstall. period. Falrach 12:01, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
 * oh and wiki says it increases damage you deal with ~41% which outclasses bout everything else you could take (you need a cover enchant anyway) Falrach 12:02, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
 * oh well lol...why you need all those enchant then?100b can spike with just whirlwind and 100b triggering mop,why whith a der you have all that things? you just need VoW+Sand Shards and Eremite's Attack..thats enough to spike everything...i just said, instead bring Staggering Force if you have problems with leftovers it is better focus on single target damage..ah and 100b have sun and moon to trigger 2times mop or barbs and have single damage target...the problems is that 100b/VoS pugs are terrible, and if they are extreme pro then MoP is terrible, there is always something wrong on pug team,thats why in pug build you add something to help cover mistakes.Staggering Force do not help a lot in 1v1 or 1v2.Want keep it?no problem,no need rage on me,i just wanted

give an advice.Light Athena II 12:16, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Read skill bars on every mesmer foe in fow. You cannot beat 41% dmg reduction, vow covering and small aoe damage with any attack skill. Autoattacking under vow and sandsards while all foes have lowered armor against em>an useless attack skill. Falrach 12:33, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
 * First off all i dont still understand why you keep speaking of +41%...From wiki : Cracked Armor =Increases damage by about 41% on someone with at least 80 armor.But if you keep reading = The maximum damage increase from this condition alone is on someone with exactly 80 armor. Creatures with less than 80 armor do not receive the full potential effect of it, as it cannot reduce armor below 60. Creatures with more than 80 armor will receive the same percentage difference, but that percentage will be based off of lower damage to begin with.After i tested on few armors i get this :

Vs Al 80 normal attacks deal 6-31 (-29% damage), normal attack+Craked armor deal 9-41 (+29%), Vs al 100 normal attack deal 5-20 (with -50% damage) while with normal attack+craked armor you deal 6-28 that is a +41% damage as you said but on 50% damaga reduction,so you gained near nothing...I can agree if you dont want take other scythe attack, they must be recalculated because they suffer damage redux too, but skills like IATS deal ignoring armor damage..or you can bring light of deldrimor too that is 55...80 holy damage..Light Athena II 12:51, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
 * You seem to forget that staggering force, besides extra damage on both spike and cleanup, also gives extra in the utility that the other 100b/VoS/EVAS also deals more damage, you deal more damage via sand shards and VoS, and it makes it possible to tank groups like the shadow groups at escort of griffons without losing Vow right away (you need 5 enchantments to be able to fully spike and still tank the groups with 2 mesmers, 5-2Xshatterenchantment-staggering(eremites)=Vow and Sand shards left. Falrach 07:30, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

cracked armor is game breaking!-- Relyk  talk  09:29, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * ^Falrach 09:31, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Well,first off all as you can see in fow you dont need all that things to spike a group, you just need a good mt,good mop and VoS+a random enchant to trigger eremites and all mobs go down..so to be honest you can put a random enchant on top before cast eremites..the problem is simple, most pugs are terrible and dont read skills,if dervs cast a enchant on top that isnt Staggering,Eremites dont remove it ==> mop dont trigger==>mobs scatter==>all die....if you put random enchants that dont modify damage type even if you remove VoS you are able to spike and trigger mop...thats a primary problem,go fow and see with your eyes ;P.Craked Armor as you can see is an excelent condition if you spike mobs with 70-80-90 armor, but with hight armors like warriors/abyssal dont make all that difference and to be honest you dont need a condition to kill them...barb + simple scythe attack can kill everything...so in my opinion,for general build it must be removed to prevent inappropriate use,but IT CAN still added in optional slot with conviction too,if you not trust MoP in forest, that is a good self condition removal.Light Athena II 11:29, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Shut up and read staggering. It only changes scythe damage, not vow damage. Falrach 12:41, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * ok calm dude...still prefer other things...free to use it.Light Athena II 13:45, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

A/D Vos critical
For ppl that have full character slot and dont have a Derv,or just dont want do a Derv, this optional build allow sins to run VoS build with max efficienty.

[build prof=A/D crit=10+1+2 scythe=11 earthpray=10][Optional][death's charge][eremites attack]["I am Unstoppable!"][vow of strength][sand shards][Optional][way of the master][/build] Usage is simple : Cast Vos and sand shards in any order, BUT CAST your optional Enchatment in slot 1 FOR LAST...Follow the MoP ping and just use death's charge + eremites attack on MoP Target. Equipment is a Q11 or less scythe, with vampiric or 20/20 (dont need zealous) and a +30 Hp or +5armor/+7Armor vs physical, use Saboteur insignas + vitae Runes and +50hp rune.

On First slot you MUST put a Derv enchantment that can be Staggering Force (I really dont like it),Aura of Thorns,Convinction(condition removal) or Vital Boon for self heal or other..it can be a random enchantment that it is there only to trigger eremite's attack so dont really care. On the other optional slot you can put someting to deal single target damage (scythe attacks,"I am The Strongest" or other)or AoE damage like Light of Deldrimor (double damage to undeads),or critical eye to add more critical and energy management,or dropping 1 point in scythe mastery you can add Way of Perfection (5 shadow art +1 from conset) to self heal on criticals (20+ heal on critical)(in this case in strongly raccomended to use a candy corn to keep max scythe damage (10+1cons+1candy). This build use 40% of critical hit (45% with candies and without Critical Eye)to deal a lof of damage on single target and keep a good energy management, at rank 13 infact critical strikes attribute give the max bonus +3 enegy gain on critical,and with a 40% you have lot of chance to land one..dont forget that a critical hit deal [maximum damage] * 1.414 (41% extra damage,with scythe maybe less) and negate 20 points of Armor rating (from wiki http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Critical). Enjoy the build ^^Light Athena II 12:20, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Only thing is that scythe crits got nerfed to hell– BalisticSig.pngalistic 17:12, 24 February 2011 (UTC) 17:12, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Critical rules are the same,damage from scythe is less..it is something like +10% instead + 41%,but its deal anyway max damage * 1.1 and +3 energy gain from critical hits.Light Athena II 21:43, 24 February 2011 (UTC))

MoP
MoP build issues im propbly messing up how this work but im not quite sure how to do this whole wiki edit deal so i sorry basicly there are two opintal slots for the MoP and two skills to choose from also another fair choice might be Necrosis the sunspear skill i find it better for left over clean up and with Buh being an AoE Vengence i think it would be a decent use of the last pve slot
 * A good skill can be Great Dwarf Weapon, to kill leftovers and spike when ritualist is not whit team...but just an idea Light Athena II 21:49, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * n/mo and n/p both have better options as a mop 2.102.58.221 20:39, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

A/D
[Build prof=A/D cri=10+1+2 scythe=11 earthpray=10 Sha=1][vow of strength][sand shards][Aura of thorns]["I am Unstoppable!"][Death's charge][eremites attack][Way of the Master][Air of superiority][/Build] I've been using this build and it works just fine, although I keep getting kicked because I'm not a "Real" dervish. Alcahmahol 2:54, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
 * If A/W works for HB, this should do fine for VoS. People are just handicapped; give it time. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.165.179.19 (talk &bull; contribs) 13:14, 28 February 2011 (UTC).
 * I don't think thats the case. People in toa are like cattle, "If it's on pvx it MUST work, 0h0h0h"Alcahmahol 14:51, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
 * PPL are retarded,they think "if pvxwiki dont put it on first page as variant it dont work" and even you can show that work they keep that opinion untill pvx dont set it as variant...and pugs are bad.Just find a good guild and run it.Light Athena II 12:25, 5 March 2011 (UTC))
 * Anyone have an opinion as to put this on page as optional since it's better than the a/w variant? Inb4 anyone cries....yes I have used all options for spiking....and yes vos is better than 100b.--E.Snow 14:15, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't run it myself, since I hardly ever fowsc any more - but I've made the suggested changes. We could probably remove the warrior 100b from the page tbh but keep it for old times' sake.-- [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] Chieftain  Alex  16:03, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

A/N
Some groups are running MoP + Unseen Fury on the MT, 2 VoS and take a third Terra to clear forest. It's faster and maybe even safer. Optionals or bad idea? 95.96.159.99 20:17, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * As long as your t3 is good it's nice, but usually unneeded since you then gotta wait on terras. Does T3 fail however, it sucks.Falrach 20:46, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Interruption
how to deal with interruption on terras? I mean it is possible to get rupted even with candy (and there players who dont use personal cons, right?). Just hope to not get rupted on Sf? Or does foes behave with dshot in a special way...so you can predict it?89.51.240.75 13:44, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Space out your skills, don't use your enchant skills one after the other because you will get interrupted. Use them within ~10 seconds of each other and you'll be fine, and also it's safer to use Sliver armor -> Honor. As for the impalers, as well as spacing out your skills you can time your enchants while they use their traps to avoid being dshotted. In the t2 spider cave there are safe spots (little crevices)in the wall where you can hide and use your skills safely. It's especially useful for casting sliver armor then death charging a Seed of Corruption. Also if you're talking about getting knocked down, use IAU when SF is anywhere between 50% and 90% recharge so SF is always covered by IAU. When IAU is up also use Shroud. You don't need rock candy, good luck! Alcahmahol 13:53, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Question
Why the fuck aren't we running 13 tactics on war 100b and dropping FGJ? would mean you could also drop AoS Falrach 15:32, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Because attributes are tight as it is, you would lose a significant amount of armor penetration and therefore weaker spikes. Theres no point dropping FGJ for another skill not necessary to spike. The spikes work fine as it is don't mess with it.Alcahmahol 18:16, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
 * youre bad. Strength doesnt matter at all. Unless your à derv it doesnt matter If you run 16 or 2 swordsmanship. Mop/barbs does main dmg. Current problemen is, waiting for recharge is bad. If you run 13 tactics, you can have a war to tank a side in forge(Soldier's Defence/shield stance), play pulltru tank in forest and just being able to survive nearly anything. You could also take other things to help survival/cleanup. Falrach 18:27, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The problem with running tactics for TTL is that for forge, which is the only place where recharge matters, theres only 4 foes. Additionally, you dont need any additional skills to tank a side of defend. Life Guardian 19:10, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
 * shit. I'm retarded. It could work in guild groups tho, where you dont do 360, save SaMS from 1 before last spike and spike them then with SaMS->TTL->WWA(->SaMS) Falrach 20:20, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Or just bring Inspirational Speech on your nec or monk and keep the attribs where they are. Life Guardian 22:07, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Tips
Mt one is kinda.. basic. "Despite common belief, a 360 is NOT faster then group by group." ...its quite simple, forge open = MT gets there + 360's before main team arrive is faster, forge not open = group by group is maybe a little faster if the MT is terrible and for some reason cant 360 fast or is lazy. Dont make such general statements in tips, if you're going to put MT tips, put useful ones.86.137.247.9 20:02, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * you do know that 90% of t2's doesn't open forge, and 90% of pug mt's is terrislow rite? And if you are good enough your mt probably won't be in front enough, unless your running t3/4way with guild, at which point you shouldn't be reading those tips anyway. Last point is that with current pug quality a dead MT wont instantly cause a partywipe. I justified it nuff? Falrach 20:38, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Mt mop
[build prof=A/N curses=12 sha=12+1+3][Shroud of Distress@17][Shadow Form@17]["I am unstoppable!@17"][Unseen Fury@17][Optional][Mark of Pain@13][Ebon Battle Standard of Honor@13][Death's Charge@17][/build]

Optionals

 * or

Thought I'd add this since it was mentioned somewhere above. Alcahmahol 04:37, 12 April 2011 (UTC)


 * You do know, that this page is for pugs? nearly all will die if you let them run this as MT. also, killing forest wolf sucks with it, as its normally ran with T3. Lastly, when running a T3 you should just forget about mop alltogether and run dervishes. Falrach 13:54, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 * "Lastly, when running a T3 you should just forget about mop alltogether and run dervishes Mesmers" better. Paranon15 18:45, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 * "Lastly, when running a T3 you should just forget about mop alltogether and run dervishes Mesmers Ritualists." Lolderpspike. Life Guardian 21:07, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I thought this was manlyway page?  >____> Falrach 21:28, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 * you're assuming I had no idea this was ran with a t3. And why would you try kill the forest wolf with this? Stupid statement... Oh and 'lastly' I put the build here because it was mentioned above as I clearly stated Alcahmahol 09:22, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Well if your running a T3 you shouldn't run manlyway like they said, but if you do, you shouldn't run such a bar, as its completely unnecessary, since a single derv can spike everything in FoW. Falrach 17:28, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Did some more research, I can now say the only reason you'd have someone run this is if you pug T3way as T3 and make the MT run this so you can run 2 dervs/100bs to avoid failure. Falrach 10:08, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

This build blows, lack of barbs means cleanup sucks, lack of recharge and independant spike means forge is slow. Get a real MoP and a dervish that knows how to press skills or use a caster spike.Paranon15 16:49, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
 * +1 to what mike said. NoW run this and it is piss poor (best times of like 14mins, which a normal manlyway can pretty much do). real mop + 1 spiker >> 2 spikers + halfass MT. Forge is hella slow because the MT has to do each individual group unless spikers are brave and do spikes w/o mop (which is retarded more than brave), makes forge take a good minute or 2 more than it should. You cant have the T3 preball battlefield because, gl spiking without mop/The mt would have to call and you lose all point in the T3 balling. Seriously, if you're running T3way manly then run it with people/spikers who DONT SUCK. T3 pugs die half the time anyway, and if they dont the spikers are retarded pugs and struggle anyway. if you want T3way, 1 monk (with a non sucky (lol heal party, lol seed) pug bar), a n/p or n/a or whatever mop, and 100b/VoS spiker x1. NOT two, have the MT go /p with WSR + ebsoh or sliver +ebsoh if you're worried about covering (these bars can do 12/13mins if you arent bad), T3ways arent designed for pugs, if you're good enough to run T3way you wouldnt be on pvx looking for bars like herp dee derp derp anyway, so why this terribad idea of A/N MT + 2 spikers is even being discussed is beyond me. 81.152.101.162 18:46, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, as Paranon said, run a caster spike, that is why the Mesway was made, an attempt to shift meta, Mesway is capable of ~12min runs like T3manly is, but is a lot safer and is harder to derp up, Hell if you dont want T3 mesway you can just add a ua instead of T3 (we used that during testing before a T3 was put in) and it was still doing pretty consistent times. 81.152.101.162 18:49, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Is this build good
this guy tried to tell me this build was the best and i didnt think so, so i thought id ask

there isnt a spike because from my knowlegde the spike comes from having vos + another enchantment, then using eremites to remove the extra one and mass trigger mop with vos, but im not an expert so im asking for ur guys' opinion 173.69.194.62 17:11, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It's terrible. Period. just copy the bar on the page, mop aint even needed then Falrach

t1 as R/A?
I heard ranger can play T1, but I dont know how they split roles with t2. I guess ranger does slaves, tos and khobay? Idk, but I'd really like to try it.-- ValeV 666 20:34, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * He also takes the hunt in that split, but you can do normal t1 aswell, just a small chance of getting CoF'd 82.95.65.117 20:48, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * and the fact wild blow rapes your defense without you putting MB + throw dirt on your bar, and even then you can still lose whirling - just not worth it at all to do regular t1. Ranger can do Regular t2 reliably, but not regular t1, really, the general r/a split is hunt ->slaves(+bf wolf)->tos + wolf->khobay, then lord if T2 doesnt want to, T2 just does battlefield, goes through forge + help with defend then does cave, but tbh if you're running with pugs its not worth the pcons, if you are with friends/guild where then its a different story. 86.136.146.63 22:24, 15 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for answers.-- ValeV 666[[file:smily.jpg|link=User:ValeV666]] 11:21, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

MoP bar for mesmer
It hasn't been posted under variant yet, so i thought I'd share it here, its the MoP variant for mesmers [build prof=Me/N name="Mes-MoP Variant" fas=12+1 ill=12+3+1][Air of Superiority][Signet of Illusions][Mark of Pain][Barbs][Foul Feast][Wandering Eye]["You Move Like a Dwarf!"][Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support][/build] It could be added under variant for MoP. Its no means any faster or more effective as reg mop build, but it can be used for mes for zb quests or something. Any thoughts?-Wracks 20:36, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The only drawback with this is the amount of preps you have to put up before spikes, but tbh you can MoP on a dervish just as well as you can on a necro. Variants are cool. I like Wandering Eye, but overall needs moar EVAS.--Loshon 23:54, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
 * No more preps than a Necro-SoI has infinite duration iirc, so you can just cast it in free time. I've seen a Me/N mop before, but they were using Keystone as the elite.  I forgot to save the bar, unfortunately.  Agreed about EVAS-just drop YMLaD for it.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  03:46, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Agreed, I find having YMLAD better, dropped FH for ebon vanguard-Wracks 04:48, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Making this available for anyone
We see sins playing VoS/100B/MoP/Terra of course. Especially since the VoS and 100B use the assassin secondary to use the skill DC. That is the only reason why they use that secondary profession. If we turn it around, assassins can of course do this. The damage output is always more than enough to kill and thanks to the help of the EoE and UA, you won't die so much.

My question is: if we change Death's Charge for Ebon Escape (Teleing to MT and use t to target your MoP-target), we would have a free secondary profession. Turning that around would make this job available for ANY profession. This way everyone can tag along if they know the job of course. Le Shadow Form Slayer     11:23, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * No. EE fucks spikes more than 70% of the time because it makes you land outside the ball, and quite often with the mop target out of range. Amount of failspikes would would double if not more. Currently Rt, R, W, D, A, Mo, Me, N and E can do FoWSC. Thats 9/10 professions, missing only the paragon, and surely someone has more than just a paragon? 82.95.65.117 12:11, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * This^. Most professions can do FoW already, and dont even get me started on lazy people who run a/n mop... I heard having more than 1 character isnt hard. No reason to gimp the bars just to let lazy people access FoWSC more, there is no reason to, if you want to fow, reroll one of the main bars - dont run something that is sub par and effectively gimps your spikes because you are too lazy to make the real profession and expect people to be fine with it, why should others be expected to compensate for someone who is so incredibly lazy?86.146.105.23 13:39, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I wonder if I have ever seen an ele :S Le Shadow Form Slayer    [[Image:Marker.jpg|17px]] 13:54, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * They can mop, but it's pretty rare. I've run it once to get armor, and seen someone else run it once for the same purpose.  Really the only reason to bring one, Necros are easy enough to find.  &not; «Ðêjh»   (talk)  13:59, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Shortly after the BuH nerf we toyed around with an SF ele spiker in place of the Esurge, and managed a 14minute run, Eles can still be used in Mesway fow (other ip didnt explicitly say manlyway he said fow, so im assuming mesway counts, considering its better.) it's just not very often used and Esurge is prolly better, but they are a viable option. Oh and strong eles can do stuff like battlefield/T3, Manic loves his funky ele terra stuff. So yes, eles can be used.86.146.105.23 14:11, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I like the idea with freeing up the /a but that would only be for /rt - Sight Beyond Sight - eheh... crappy idea i know, but might be nice for low-end pugs Ash 17:31, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * No...for reasons explained above. 82.95.65.117 18:15, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Because pugs need further dilution of the bars? Pugs as they are are bad, making the bars more optional/bad is not going to help anything, sure it means more people can join in but, chances are they wont be that great, i dont know why this is even being discussed... 86.146.105.23 19:53, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Because the one that started all of this asked the question I guess. Falrach 20:01, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I run 100B paragon + A/N MT (essentialy merging N/P mop into MT+100b to free up a character slot for T3). Works great 18:08, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Question about UA
I'm playing the variant with GLoE as seen on PvX@Wikia. Outweigh the advantages of "Can't Touch This!" the disadvantage of using less Group Healing. And another question. What's the of Vigorous Spirit? I barely use it and when I use it, it was mostly a mistake. Wouldn't be another skill more useful? --TuXx 18:01, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
 * if your mt and spikers are any good you shouldnt need to use heal party ever, and CTT makes forest much cleaner. as for vigorus its great as a cover on derv spikers against shadow mesmers, especially when going round forge, since 2 shatters on one derv can fuck his day up, so you may aswell take it just for thatHalfies 18:58, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

T1 Radiation Field/Vipers Defense
why are both Radiation field in the Variants for t1?

Radiation Field = 15e Ward Spell. For 5 seconds, foes in the area have -4...6 Health degeneration. When the portal ends, foes in the area are Diseased for 12...20 seconds. Vipers Defense = 5e Spell. All adjacent foes are Poisoned for 5...17...20 seconds. Shadow Step to a nearby location directly away from your target.

both same effect, but with cons on Vipers lasts longer, less energy

RF has 2 more health degen for 5 secs (wow that nets 20damage total)
 * Meh can't you stack RF to hit 10 degen or something. -- [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] Chieftain  Alex  11:17, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
 * And inproper usage of Vipers fucks your wallblock/costs sliver damage, so radfield is easier. Falrach 11:26, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
 * What ya guys do about the energy? when i swap to Scythe im dying. Infiltrators armor btw 213.93.179.145 12:07, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Try chaining sliver and IAU and casting SoD on recharge. Falrach 13:10, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Glyph of Swiftness
How about adding Glyph of Swiftness to the variants of T1?

speeds up killing tos rangersFreakyboy 09:24, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Or you could just change to a staff (or 30 set) to cast sliver (which not enough people do), and bring rad field/fh which is a lot quicker... 86.143.246.163 14:01, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Glyph of Swiftness Glyph. For 15 seconds, your next 1...3...3 spell[s] recharge 25% faster, and projectiles from those spells move 200% faster.
 * Glyph of Lesser Energy Glyph. For the next 15 seconds, your next 2 spells cost 10...16...18 less Energy to cast.
 * I think ur confused with those 2 Freakyboy 20:34, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
 * 40/20/20 to reduce recharge for sliver.
 * No, im not confused, dont patronize me thanks. GoS speeds sliver up by 25% which is pretty shit. Swap to a 30% HSR set or 40/20/20 staff and cast sliver and you gain pretty much the same effect - considering 1/3 of the time sliver is recharging 50% quicker. Other than recharging Sliver slightly quicker GoS is a wasted slot - you will gain more damage from the degen from rad field at tos than you will with GoS, in short Rad Field + staff > GoS = why bring GoS when there are superior options. So no, im not confused.86.143.246.163 21:56, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
 * wow,, you dont have to rage lol.. You said 30 set so i thought you meant 30energy set, but hey, you're right, thanks anyway

Bad advice
Im going to remove a part that says use sliver before SF to reduce the chance of rupt because thats retarded. if anything, it will make you more likely to be rupted by rangers, since they will try to rupt sliver, and the arrow will hit while your casting SF. just like you dont cast SF and then shroud standing in the same place while your in cave Halfies 22:58, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Sliver blocks stuff... it means use Sliver 8 or so seconds before SF needs to recast so that SF is covered by sliver and thus you have the block - not chain casting... stop being a baddy.86.143.246.163 00:52, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * with MB and shroud your blocking 87% of things anyway, and if your worried about being rupted then you should be running that or GoC or a Red rock. the way that blocking stacks means using additional blocking skills has minimal effect, you would only be at about 92 % with sliver. any terra who stops to cast sliver before SF everytime is going to slow his times massively, because when he actually has to kill something it will be on recharge.. but w/e if you want to give new players bad advice then leave it, idc Halfies 09:19, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I think the spiders wil use theire rupts on sliver (hit or not) so you can cast Shadow Form when theire rupts are on recharge. But i agree with Halfies, it slows the run down pretty much Freakyboy 11:59, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry but, you are both terrible. A decent terra wont even be running MB. The point is, you dont use sliver every single time you need to cast sf. You merely time sliver when you ARE using it to cover the SF cast - for example menzies or camp, you cast sliver before you need to cast sf incase the two impalers rupt you. In cave you cast sliver before SF has recharged and kill a seed then go to longbow range + strafe - as opposed to using sliver when SF is like 1/4 recharged. stop telling other people they are giving bad advice when they arent. It doesn't slow anything down at all.86.143.246.163 12:21, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * well, tbh i just dodge arrows when i cast, its easy. and if your saying you only cast sliver when your at camp or menzies then the advice is irrelevant because obviously you cast sliver at Menzies. so the advice is bad. if you want to write it so it actually says what your saying, which is still retarded, but less so than now, then do. but dont leave it like it is, because its currently awful.
 * I heard that you dont move when you are casting? are you retarded? I didnt say only when you are at camp - you clearly have sub-par reading abilities. They're called examples, i didn't list every single instance that there are rupts. You should try to have sliver up whilst you are using SF - i dont see how timing advice is bad. I dont know how good you believe you are, but people who dont suck quite frequently cover their SF cast with sliver, and the sheer fact that you think it is still pointless is just hilarious, it doesnt slow anything down, it doesnt change anything you merely time things better so that you gain the block whilst casting. Why you think it is irrelevant is beyond me.86.143.246.163 19:16, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * You guys are silly. Halfies' edit was confusing and cluttered, and the way it is now is poorly worded. Using Sliver to help prevent rupts is a viable tactic that, while generally useful, isn't always the best thing to do if you want a good time. I'm editing the main article with more clarity.--Loshon 19:34, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about good times? Using sliver at the correct time does not cost you anything... These are tips for new - average players who are merely trying to play, not people who are trying to do a 3minute menzies or push records - also, i have just rephrased it so read it before you edit ;)86.143.246.163 19:37, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Editing mistakes
After looking over the recent history for this page, I think Falrach, me, and 86.143.246.163 accidentally reverted or erased (or some combination of the two) each other's edits unintentionally due to all of us editing at the same time. Thoughts?--Loshon 21:40, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

EoE changes
The "EXP" EoE bar that you added was a fine bar, for Mesway/DWGway FoWSC. In Pugway, I think EoE is mandatory due to pug MT's sloppy balls. As far as EEing in and using Destro/DWG/Ancestor's, you have 2 incredibly strong spikers as well as a MoP, so why do you need more spike? If this was DWGway, I'd say yeah, go for EE and all that stuff but that build was deleted for a distinct reason, whether I agree with it or not. The EoE on the Mesway page details everything you do, but appropriately. I'm not saying your build is bad, or useless, or not a good idea, I'm just saying it doesn't belong on this page because it's inappropriate for your average person who goes to the manlyway page.

Also, people get mad when you have no splinter. I'm open to adding your original bar back in, however, don't revert because I made a lot of other non-related edits. Thanks,--Loshon 02:49, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Just going to say that I put the EXP bars up for EXP players only and attempted to clearly notify users that they are in fact for EXP players. The idea of not bringing EoE is that if a foe is not in the mob when spiked, then it will not be damaged below 90% of its health any ways and thus not take the damage from EoE. If used by a player that understands how to use the bar then the clean up spike will follow within 3 seconds of the initial spike sufficiently finishing the ball off if you have horrible spikers(like most pugs). Any bad formatting is due to my inexperience with Wiki code so I thank you for cleaning my errors up. I'll add that I added these bars so that people with a firm grasp on how to do FoWsc can branch into more useful builds and not be rejected from a group by doing so. -- Ilaj 02:47 19 August 2011(PST)
 * I agree wholeheartedly after reading your post. Go and add whatever you like, don't worry about formatting or wording. I'll clean it up for you later.--Loshon 09:57, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Also i'd like to point out that bringing Rupture Soul and Destruction makes it EXTREMELY easy to tank abyssals at ToC and kill wurms (with the side benefit of preventing rupts) saving tedious time having the spikers being blinded if the MoP is slow to remove conditions. Spirit Rift is 100% optional but reccomended since it makes solo spiking monks viable in case your main team is terrible, but once again that is completely relying on the EoE's ability. I'm getting very tired of people telling me I'm running a horrible bar even though it has saved many runs. Having a bar on wiki that even slightly resembles the bars that would be ideal for fast runs(true SCs) would make pugs less scared to move away from the handicap of FoWsc Pugway and into sub 20 min average runs just like what was done with the N/P build(oooh scary :D). I realise I'm ranting a little so ill leave it there. Thank you. -- Ilaj 03:29 19 August 2011(PST)
 * The problem with your "advanced bar", is that it becomes useless with good spikers. With a decent derv toc takes three attacks tops, the left wurms a single spike and the others a few sweeps. Then you miss the utility as mass interrupt Tbabble provides, the antisnare of ymlad etc. Now is it true a eoe can bring only eoe and do his job, so it matters little i guess. 89.143.142.157 17:00, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
 * If you want pugs to move away from retarded shit, start forming Mesways/DWGways in ToA. :) --Loshon 20:01, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Chilling victory
Chilling victory is such a powerful skill, especially for clean-up after spike if its not super clean. Add as variant? No More  Mr Nice  Sin  18:25, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
 * No. The other optionals are much better, and just recasting SS is better damage. Also, how can a spike not be clean with VoS+mop? Falrach 20:05, 6 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Bad MoP :3 Togo&#39;s Black Brother 15:21, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * You do realize mop is completely unnecessary right? Falrach 17:40, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

T3 Manly
I've seen many pugs starting to run this with the set-up: 1 VoS,1 MoP,1 EoE, 1 UA, t3, t1(a/e), t2,+mt(a/e). I have issues with this for several reasons.


 * 1) While running t3way t1+t2 (imo) should be ranger split. Only the very best a/e t1 will be able to complete his role in a time suitable for t3way.
 * 2) Since there is a t3 completing forest wolf...I don't see any reason for MT to carry sliver other than covering (which there are 2 other terras to do so anyways)
 * 3) Most pug VoS do not know at forge to either a)cover enchant or b)wait for nec to have intial aggro b4 spiking mesmer/monk groups.

So inturn I was thinking that (since most pugs look here) it would be wise to post a t3 manly varient on pvx.

Imo for t3 manly it is best to do away with the mop bar completely and merge MoP itself on the mt bar. This requires 180 pulls at forge. [build prof=A/N cur=12 sha=12 cri=3][Shroud of Distress][Shadow Form][Unseen Fury]["I Am Unstoppable!"][Mental Block][Ebon Battle Standard of Honor][Mark of Pain][Death's Charge][/build] Any thoughts?--E.Snow 16:06, 17 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Maybe do away with the mop all together and add 2nd Vos? --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.254.225.23 (talk) at 18:03, 17 October 2011 (UTC).
 * Or use a 100b w/o FGJ, a N/P with inspirational speech, and a rit that actually knows what splinter is. Actualy, just dropping the monk is the easiest way. 98.207.35.105 02:05, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Dropping the monk in PUG runs (which is what is most likely this is about) is possibly the worst choice. Pug MTs straight up cant ball for shit, so theres always leftover, Pug mop/rits/spikers are bad and cant optimise what they kill when there IS cleanup, which is why they need heals from monk. the best thing to do with T3 depends heavily on how good your team is, good 100b/vos = drop the 2nd spiker, good MT = drop the monk or nec, its all optional. Also, groups who are generally good enough to run T3 already know what to drop to bring a T3, or they just run Mesway - pugs just arent very good so it isnt worth taking a T3. Oh and even IF pugs main teams + Maintanks suddenly got good enough to finish in ~15minutes with a t3, most pug terras take forever to finish and wont be done till 20+ mins anyway - which makes T3 pointless. In short, T3 with pugs is bad.164.11.204.132 21:52, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

MoP Builds
N/A is the best bar to run, nobody runs the n/mo because it is pointless and n/p, though popular, is inferior to n/a in almost all ways if the monk runs the right bar. thoughts? Paranon15 20:05, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Leave N/A mainbar, put N/P as an optional due to popularity and its somewhat viability. N/Mo is completely pointless and should be deleted. There is no viable reason to bring an extra res + heals on necro over AP because you already have a monk who should be providing that(good teams dont even need a monk so having a monk and then extra heals on nec is illogical even for pugs)so yeah, delete the n/mo. --164.11.203.58 20:16, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * N/A blows. There are enough balled foes per mob to trigger Air of Superiority's 10% chance several time. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 06:26, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Missing the point of n/a =\. Its the best build overall, and even better for pugs. Life Guardian 23:43, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Explain. There's no benefit using AP when you're balling and using MoP only once every 10-15 seconds. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 23:44, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * AP isn't really for recharging MoP, at least not in pug groups anyways. For pugs, the single most valuable thing AP brings to the table is EVAS/FH spam. Pug MTs cant ball. Pug EoEs cant use eoe/splinter, and pug spikers cant spike. The sheer amount of cleanup that that combo brings to the table makes it the best bar for the job. Life Guardian 23:48, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Heh. I think it's less urgent with dervs but I see your point. Haven't used AP in a long time now; guess my teams were all competent. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 23:50, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Does this
Deserve to be on the page or not? It's pretty easy but it could make more fails happen due to bad ppl trying it. Might be best just to link vid, and don't put a big skillbar or smth? 82.95.65.117 21:17, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The main problem with this is that doing regular T1(or 2 for that matter) on a ranger is generally lack luster, you are better off doing the Ranger split because it is quicker and more efficient. Ranger split speeds the time terras finish by quite some time, the main problem with this is that there isnt much use to terras being quicker if the main team are still slow (as most pug main teams are, albeit with very rare acceptions). If you want to regular t1 i would suggest just using a sin, if you want r/a bar put on main page i suggest something similar to mesway page currently has with a "speed variant" with the true ranger split t1 + t2 for teams looking for quicker times. Also, as much as people hate someone saying this, requiring pcons for casual pug runs is generally something which people hate in fow, mostly due to the poor return in money. In short: If you want r/a bar on page put true ranger split as a speed variant, i said this on guru as well, doing the regular t1 or t2 role on a ranger is somewhat pointless. Oh and if people are going quick enough with mainteam to warrent wanting terras finished in ~14mins or less, they probably already run a ranger split, or just add a t3, so i dont know how necessary it would be.164.11.203.58 01:51, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Good a/es can already finish t1 and t2 at 14-15 btw :o. Life Guardian 05:06, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Perfect R/A run would be 8-9 min mb 10 82.95.65.117 06:34, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I am aware of that life - the only difference being that a mediocre ranger split is done by 15 or so, whereas for a sin t1 to finish in 14mins you need someone actually competant - it'd probably be easier to find an average ranger than a sin t1 good enough to finish fast enough, which is why people do (for the most part) just run a ranger split if they want decent speed runs.edit: obviously i am talking about friend/guild runs as opposed to pug runs - which aim at merely finishing and dont care about time164.11.203.58 13:36, 7 December 2011 (UTC)