Archive talk:Me/Mo Fast Cast RC

No joke. Zuranthium 20:11, 7 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Divine Favor > Fast Casting? Only reason it works with Snare ele's is because Energy Storage has no real effect on that build. / Fros  T  alk  \ 14:57, 8 July 2008 (EDT)
 * super protz! &mdash;  Skakid  14:58, 8 July 2008 (EDT)
 * 0.1 second SB and 0.4 second RC is pretty wtf hax though ;) / Fros  T  alk  \ 14:59, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

Lacks either e-management or bar efficiency to take advantage of FC or to make up for the lack of Divine Favor. Speed saves are great, but you wont be able to last the fight. Throw a sig or two in there or some kind of extreme e-management and get more bang for the buck. Shireen  former sysop  15:10, 8 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Energy is fine. &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Rawr. 15:21, 8 July 2008 (EDT)
 * TBH, it takes some type of magic to interrupt RC. Unless you're Dazed, it has a pretty nice cast time. --[[Image:GoD Wario Sig.PNG]] * Wah Wah  Wah! * 15:40, 8 July 2008 (EDT)
 * I hope you mean with fast cast. &mdash;  Skakid  15:45, 8 July 2008 (EDT)
 * I PBlocked a RoF yesterday. It's very relevant. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 15:57, 8 July 2008 (EDT)
 * zzzzzz If you're seriously that worried about a pblock get more disruption in there. I seriously don't believe you're sitting on your prot staff enough. If this were viable to supplant, langola would be on a mesmer and not a monk.[[Image:Blessed Light.jpg|User:ISnowBunnyI|20px]]Snow Bunny  15:59, 8 July 2008 (EDT)
 * I forgot sarcasm doesn't work over the internet. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 16:09, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

I like the 0.5s cast SoA and Guardian. Looks uber sexy. &not;H4xx Master Gladius  16:10, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

Channeling could be used, at least for HA. God box    16:36, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

I'm not sure why the HA tag was added, is P-block common there as well? LOL at SnowBunny. Zuranthium 19:37, 8 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Pblock is a commonly ran alternative to PD, actually. &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Rawr. 20:47, 8 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Hmm, but in HA you don't know what you'll fight. In GvG, in ATs, you take it 1 match at a time and know who you're fighting, so you get to change your build according to that. Which is why I'm thinking that this character really shouldn't have an HA tag. Zuranthium 03:21, 10 July 2008 (EDT)


 * lol at lol'ing at snow. &mdash;  Skakid  01:04, 9 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Uh, Snow seems to think a Prot staff prevents you from being P-blocked. A rather hilarious suggestion. Zuranthium 03:21, 10 July 2008 (EDT)
 * No, but it does make it more difficult (36% chance of fast cast, only a mesmer with about 1ms ping can wait to see if you fastcasted or not). &mdash;  Skakid  09:54, 10 July 2008 (EDT)
 * There's still a thinh called 'animation'. You can see the difference between 0,75/1 sec casts and <0,75 by that. And since a prot monk's bar is fully prot except for veil, you can use that if you're worried about fc sets. —ǘŋ  Ɛxɩsƫ  06:37, 5 August 2008 (EDT)

Shouldnt hex breaker be optional if its tagged for HA?--R ELYK   ʞlɐʇ ʎɯ  00:04, 9 July 2008 (EDT)
 * No. It's more of a GvG build than HA, so the main bar gets priority towards that. Zuranthium 00:55, 9 July 2008 (EDT)
 * AND IT WAS RUN BY A TOP 60 . Just thought I would throw that in there.  Frosty  No U!  05:21, 9 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Solar is r100? Anyway, from what I've seen it works brilliantly. Smurf Ohai 05:23, 9 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Void of Silence, the team they played used it as well oO  Frosty  No U!  05:24, 9 July 2008 (EDT)

What a mes uses against RC is not PBlock, its Signet of Humility. 219.77.33.41 06:16, 9 July 2008 (EDT)
 * No it isn't. Brandnew.  06:22, 9 July 2008 (EDT)
 * In condition pressure it is. Nvm, was meant for LoD. But this still prevents you from getting Pblocked. - Star Seeker  |  My talk  07:49, 9 July 2008 (EDT)

Isn't Hex Breaker AND Veil a bit overkill? Seems like one should be mtouch for self condition removal.--Black ened 15:10, 9 July 2008 (EDT)
 * No. &mdash;  Skakid  15:36, 9 July 2008 (EDT)

You guys are inconsistant... * User:Shireen/Build:Me/Mo RA FC Healer Check the discussion page where most of you B* about any kind of mesmer filling any type of monk role. Shireen  former sysop  20:03, 9 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Pblock isn't RA meta, and this isn't great anyway. &mdash;  Skakid  20:05, 9 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Skad, I think they tagged it for HA and GVG... not RA. Shireen   former sysop  20:06, 9 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Doesn't matter much in any case, that build is a fast cast healer. This is a much different. Zuranthium 03:36, 10 July 2008 (EDT)
 * The main difference, is that bar is complete shit, while this one isn't. You are not brave enough to run purge, stop lying to yourself. --Readem 15:11, 11 July 2008 (EDT)

Anyone else feelthat the 20% fast cast on the staff is a redundancy? Shireen  former sysop  20:58, 9 July 2008 (EDT)
 * No, casting as fast as possible is good. Zuranthium 03:37, 10 July 2008 (EDT)

Ok u lose the DF for FC, but surely u couls just use a HB instead of a WoH ifyou relli need the extra healing, while still wanting to keep a FC RC? Zuko 06:20, 10 July 2008 (EDT)

Zuran Vote Removal
Is not valid. Skakid and Tab have rather large and valid reasons. Don't remove them just because you expect your build to be great. -- * Wah <font color="DAA520">Wah  Wah! * 08:29, 11 July 2008 (EDT)
 * I expect people to know what they're talking about when making a vote, which pretty much nobody except me does because it's pretty clear none of them have experience with the build. However, it's good that we can now discuss here instead of me constantly having to re-type everything. See more below. Zuranthium 11:56, 12 July 2008 (EDT)
 * As a general point i'm hoping Zuranthium will bring his reasons to the discussion, now, instead. We're coming close to 1RV. --Dark0805 ( Rant /<font color=#ff11aa>Contributions ) 10:27, 11 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Dont already told him to not remove any more ratings. So, I think everything is fine now. --[[Image:GoD Wario Sig.PNG]]<font color="Black"> * Wah <font color="DAA520">Wah  Wah! * 10:28, 11 July 2008 (EDT)


 * Ill take this heading to poke my polight, and logical, interjection towards my vote removal, if you don't mind. I have used Mesmer Monks for over a year now, back when ZB was first introduced and was essentially a free casting.  The main strength of a memser is their ability to fire off spells in significantly, and consistantly, shorter periods of time than monk primaries at the cost of divine favor (and some self survival skills).  The shortened casting times allow a mesmer to fire off more spells and gain significant ground on a monk with the same bar.  Here the fast casting is utilized only as a minor counter to mesmer interupts and increased reactivity to situations, but the pacing of that mesmers castings is still only limited to their regen bar, same as the monk.  The key to creating a truly successfull Mesmer Monk is to include energy efficient (Not to be confused with the concept of Energy Density - Most healing per point of energy) skills to allow for continious casting of on demand skills.  I illustrated a very strong variation and chart on the archives page of the above posted FC Heal mesmer, where a mesmer can consistantly cast 2-3 spells more than a monk of the same caliber, and spend less energy doing it, causing only a slight loss in overall healing power in exchange for a wider berth of consistant performance.  This build, as strong as it is, is better off utilizing a simple monk with 20/20 FC wands.  To get the best out of this bar as possible, energy efficiency needs to go up.  Though it's other two points are valid - Reactivity and Interupt prevention are very strong, realistic reasons to go with a mesmer.  However, it's missing the third possible output for the mesmer - Additional castings - Which it cannon do above and beyond a monk without improving e-management on the bar.  <font face="arial" color="Green">Shireen   former sysop  14:46, 11 July 2008 (EDT)

no, you are wrong. and bad at the game. but mostly just wrong. FC is merely to prevent Pblock from raping your pure-prot healer. Skills such as guardian and SoA, are prime targets for such rape. Energy management should be no different than a regular Monk Bar (minus GoLE). Just don't be stupid and spam skills pointlessly, and you will be fine. Also, FC SoA is sexy and energy-efficient. --<font color="Black">Readem 15:04, 11 July 2008 (EDT)


 * Just don't be stupid and spam skills pointlessl, FC is merely to prevent Pblock &mdash;  Skakid  15:05, 11 July 2008 (EDT)


 * That is correct good sir. Except I had a "y" with that "ly". Good-day. --<font color="Black">Readem 15:09, 11 July 2008 (EDT)


 * NoPA? Im talking about loosing out on potential capability, not playing uninteligently.  Mesmer Monking, as I allways have said, requires a paradigm shift and a different playstyle to conventional monking to get the best out of it.  All I am saying is that if you can get the mesmers energy output down, you would get more out of this build with the fast casting and reactivity.  <font face="arial" color="Green">Shireen   former sysop  15:14, 11 July 2008 (EDT)
 * I doubt anyone is saying that this will become commonly used. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 15:15, 11 July 2008 (EDT)
 * I still have no idea what shireen is trying to say. also, the role-playing is so very very distracting. I just want to kill myself everytime I see your name. No joke. --<font color="Black">Readem 15:18, 11 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Basically, there was a RA Me/Mo WoH build he posted a while back, he's comparing that to this. --[[Image:Ibreaktoilets_Signature.jpg|User:Ibreaktoilets|20px]]<font color="Black">Tab  <font color="Black">Moo  15:23, 11 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Commented upon prior. --<font color="Black">Readem 15:29, 11 July 2008 (EDT)
 * I didn't give the build bad scores, as it's philosophy is valid, Im just saying my vote has reasoning behind it that is valid. <font face="arial" color="Green">Shireen  former sysop  15:25, 11 July 2008 (EDT)

Reworded vote, but it still needs build master approval. <font face="arial" color="Green">Shireen  former sysop  17:08, 11 July 2008 (EDT)

From vote section: ''prots coming faster are tied more to reflexes skill, and awareness. of the prots tht actually make a difference in a life/death situation, only rof and spirit are on this bar. and both have 1/4 second casts. unless they're spike has impeccable timing, thats enough as long your monk has eyes and fingers with which to click.

''the builds function is largely stupid. it takes build wars to an unncessesary level, and that would be if the function was feasible enough to bother with :

''the perception that pblock is a "click and win" skill is hugley inaccurate.

''as skakid very aptly put it:

''"If your team collapses when you get pblocked 1 time, you're terrible. Play defensively for 10 seconds and you'll be fine."

''zuranthium, you completely misunderstood my point on the reaction time. what i mean is, if you lack enough skill to catch with .25 rof, you dont have enough to catch .1 rof.

''and also, suddenly the .5 cast of guardian is viable against quarterknocking? earlier you made good points about a fc cast helping against a QUARTERknock. not a scrubby player knock. in a quarterknock, .1 rof might save a life and game. .5 guardian wont.

Fast-cast guardian means you can reflex guardian on yourself when you see the Hammer attack animation. If they are Dev Hammer you might prevent their entire chain from taking place and if they are Magehunter, at least you have a chance to avoid the Crushing or Hammer Bash. Ditto against a Shock Warrior, if you see them run up to you and think they are going to use it. With normal speed Guardian, the Warriors will KD you before you can get the prot off.

The fast cast Guardian is additionally useful on other people because, when you see a melee run up to someone, your prot gets on before the first hit (which is usually the most important one to block) and then can be quickly followed up with something else. One of the reasons deaths can occur is simply because too much damage was compressed for the Monk to respond to in time and their skill clicks. SoA casting fast has similar usage (remember when it used to be 1/4 second cast? Was nerfed for a reason). You additionally under-estimate P-block. With the way Monk bars are right now, the other team is bad if they don't have the build/co-ordination to frequently produce kills when the Prot Monk is P-blocked. If you play against a team that isn't bad with a build like [sup]'s, you will see this.

"Balanced" teams are now doing less damage than they used to a few months ago (no more big-damage splinter and A-rage on your Rit runner, Me/E < B-surge Ele for spikes) which pushes the game more towards needing that shutdown (largely via Mesmer and Ranger interrupts) to actually get kills. Actually being able to do everything you need to is superior to having the Divine Favor against a lot of teams. Zuranthium 11:35, 12 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Predict that they're coming toward you .5 seconds faster then >.>. You're underrating divine favor and player skill. &mdash;  Skakid  11:40, 12 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Too bad it doesn't work that like. Good Warriors quickly swap between targets. Zuranthium 11:56, 12 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Bad build for shitty players. OH RIGHT Z, THIS BUILD ISN'T USED IN TOP 100. OH WHY EVER NOT?[[Image:Blessed Light.jpg|User:ISnowBunnyI|20px]]<font color="Black">Snow <font color="Black">Bunny  11:58, 12 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Actually I played against a top 100 guild that was using this and that was why I tried the build in the first place. It's not something I would have thought to be great on paper, which is what most everyone would think when looking at it. As such, very few people even attempt to use it. But, having played with the standard Monk backline against [sup] and so many other teams that rely on the Ranger + Dom Mes shutdown combo to kill, and then having tried this build, I find this one to be very effective against those kinds of teams. Zuranthium 12:13, 12 July 2008 (EDT)
 * (Regardless of the dickwaving above me)Ninjaing warriors with a halfcast guardian probably looks great, but its not worth the loss of df. Also, by losing aegis, you necessitate the use of guardian more than you half to. you're just making more problems for yourself. the .5 guardian might be great to stop a hammer combo, but honestly with a good aegis and skill that warrior wouldnt have adrenaline with which to attack. --Dark0805 ( Rant /<font color=#ff11aa>Contributions ) 12:34, 12 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Yes, the fast casting is worth the loss of df. The teams you use this against don't have a ton of damage. You don't need the df healing to keep your team alive, you just need to actually be able to cast everything. Not sure how many times that needs to be said. Aegis will be interrupted a lot and is sub-optimal. That is one of the reasons the standard Monk backline fails when opposing disruption falls into place. Teams build around dismantling this defense and if you simply avoid the disruption, what they are able to do becomes a whole lot less effective. A lot of good teams have dropped Aegis, you're putting it on too high of a pedestal. That skill isn't nearly what it used to be. To me, your comments show that you are only looking at everything on paper and don't have experience with the way it actually works. Zuranthium 13:42, 12 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Too bad QQ forums told you it doesn't really work. [[Image:Blessed Light.jpg|User:ISnowBunnyI|20px]]<font color="Black">Snow <font color="Black">Bunny  14:56, 13 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Uh, no? Zuranthium 14:57, 14 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Don't know about you, but I've seen more than a couple heavy pressure teams. Like, 3 warrior condi builds and such.  Still fairly sure you're underrating divine favor and aegis. Pluto 03:56, 20 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Why would you run this against that kind of build? This character is meant to counter teams with a lot of disruption rather than damage. In my experience, you don't need as much healing to counter their damage. You simply need to avoid shutdown. Zuranthium 20:30, 22 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Your experience doesn't fucking matter because no one runs this bullshit. GOOD FUCKING GAME. [[Image:Blessed Light.jpg|User:ISnowBunnyI|20px]]<font color="Black">Snow <font color="Black">Bunny  01:38, 24 July 2008 (EDT)

Uh, yeah, people HAVE ran it. Regardless, people not running something doesn't constitute it as bad. In fact, good teams will sometimes try to keep a build as low-key as possible until a tournament rolls around. My experience does matter because I actually have played as a Monk against teams such as [sup] - top guilds that run builds with massive levels of disruption. Having played against these teams, it's my assessment that their builds only ever kill because of shutdown and that I don't need divine favor healing to keep my team alive - I just need to be able to avoid all that disruption they are trying to throw on me and get my prots and removal out there quickly.

Also, as a continuation of my response to what Pluto said - top guilds have run Aegis less frequently post-nerf. In the latest tournament, most top guilds did not bring it at all. Everyone builds around trying to shut down Aegis. It's not nearly as good as it used to be and, against some teams, it's a fairly bad skill to have on your bar. Zuranthium 07:45, 24 July 2008 (EDT)

Difference..

 * Mesmer

Attributes and Skills
[build prof=Mesmer/Monk fast=11+1+1 prot=12 dom=6+1][Reversal of Fortune][Restore Condition][Spirit Bond][Aura of Stability][Shield of Absorption][Guardian][Holy Veil][Hex Breaker][/build]


 * Monk

Attributes and Skills
[build prof=monk/elem protec=12+1+1 divine=12+1][Reversal of Fortune][Restore Condition][Spirit Bond][Aura of Stability][Shield of Absorption][Guardian][Holy Veil][Hex Breaker][/build]


 * I took the exact and calculated some of difference (20% Ench Staff is used)


 * The monk is first then mesmer.


 * Divine Favor - 42hp


 * Fast Casting - 45% (Faster cast)


 * Guardian - 8,4 (+42hp heal)(1sec Cast)


 * Guardian - 7,2 (0.5 Cast time)


 * SoA - 8.4 (42hp Heal) (1sec cast)


 * SoA - 7.2 (0.5 Cast Time)


 * AoS - 12 (42hp heal) (1/4 Cast)


 * AoS - 10.8 (0.1 Cast Time)


 * Spirit Bond - 96hp (42hp heal) (1/4 cast)


 * Spirit Bond - 66hp (0.1 Cast time)


 * Restore Condition - 66hp (42hp heal) (3/4 cast)


 * Restore Condition - 58hp (0.4)


 * Reversal of Fortune - 76hp (42hp heal) (1/4 cast time)


 * Reversal of Fortune - 67hp (0.1 Cast time)


 * My conclusion is all prots lasts 1.2sec longer, which can be really lifesaving.. The Divine Favor on 42hp is better to have than 45% faster cast. It's like loosing all heal for fast and whit the lack of healing u will get more Party Wipes than a single wipes. All in all Monk > Mesmer. Theres also a reason why everyone use Monks..Massive..
 * LOL. The point of this was...? Anyone can look at stats on paper. Actually understanding the way things play out is of greater importance. You've ignored all of the important reasons for why you would use a Me/Mo. Zuranthium 05:32, 19 July 2008 (EDT)


 * There are a few things achieved when you run FC on a Mes/monk. The first is the reduction in the likelyhood that interupts take effect.  It is much more difficult for any hard interupter to score a shutdown on a .1 or .5 second cast as opposed to a 1.0 and .5 second casting.  That is the main argument that they they propose above to running a mesmer.  Fewer hard interupts means that more spells actually take affect.  So In heavy interupt games the mesmer is out performing it's slower counterpart. The second major reason you run a mes with FC (also mentioned briefly above) is improved reactivity for that 'healer'.  It helps lower the guess work required for a correct reaction.  Its easier to make that 'last second' save when things get hectic. So when you are juggling three or more targets, handling it okay, and suddenly somone starts dropping, its less likely that you just 'missed' somone before they go down. The last one is what I would call spell compression, you simply are capable of casting more spells in less time with consistancy compared to a monk primary. This last one can be proved mathmatically. In a six second time frame a mesmer can cast 2-3 more spells than a monk primary, this allows a higher degree of juggling in intense situations.    So yes, on the pure math sense, a mesmer does not keep up with a monk in raw healing power, but in practice a mesmer is more consistant over time than a monk, its what your trading the healing bonus for.  Depending on the team and the situation, a mesmer monk can maintain an entire team longer than a monk counterpart (In RA at least... where I play a lot in).  This change requires a paradigm shift in th way that you monk or at least the way you view monking(as I have stated over and over again.)
 * This build is solid in theory, it achieves two of the three goals with ease. Its harder to cause hard interupts and the margin of error for reactivity has been effectively cut in half.  so with that in mind, its a good build.  As I pointed out above it does however, delebriately choose to to foregoe the third monking aspect, spell 'surging' for lack of a better term, in its lack of supperior energy management over a traditional monk.  So it is really giving up healing over time to do that, but in the situations and teams that this build was run on, that is not so much of an issue, as the other monks and or gear setup on the non healing teams compensated for the lower healing values.  This, currently, is not a plug and play GVG build, the rest of the team has to be capable of meshing with or compensating for the lower healing, but increased reactivity/consistancy.  68.23.92.165 18:20, 20 July 2008 (EDT) (Shireen on a airport terminal)

Archival
Lol, Power Block. &mdash; Rapta   (talk|contribs) 00:47, 24 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Lol, gosh this was around like barely a month and now already needs an archive. --[[Image:GoD Wario Sig.PNG]]<font color="Black"> * Wah <font color="DAA520">Wah  Wah! * 08:42, 26 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Yea, and every top guild ran one of these...  Frosty  No U!  10:10, 26 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Not archive, delete.  —ǥrɩɳsɧƴ ɖɩđđɭɘş  [[Image:Grinshpon blinky cake.gif|19px]] 15:59, 26 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Whats this thing with pblock now then which makes this obselete>? Dutchess of Rose  aka  lukejohnson  - talk 16:13, 26 July 2008 (EDT)
 * It stopped being used in every build. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 16:14, 26 July 2008 (EDT)
 * No... u cudn't mean a..... META SHIFT! Dutchess of Rose  aka  lukejohnson  - talk 16:26, 26 July 2008 (EDT)
 * You could say that, or just that since fast casting snarers are here there isn't much P-Block bait.  Frosty  No U!  16:27, 26 July 2008 (EDT)
 * And still it's better then crappy e-surge. —ǘŋ  Ɛxɩsƫ  06:39, 5 August 2008 (EDT)

Archived it, seeing as it's practically pointless now. This was never all that good, but who cares tbh, we've archived plenty of other mediocre builds. Tab 10:37, 17 December 2008 (EST)