Archive talk:Mo/A Shadow Arts LoD Infuser

Discussion
I've uploaded a few builds to GuildWiki back when it hosted builds, but this is my first one being uploaded to PvXWiki. Please let me know if I messed anything up. I noticed this build is very very common but hadn't been posted yet, so I thought I would post it. VegaObscura 08:43, 3 July 2007 (CEST)

You don't have reversal of fortune in the main bar. No monk has ever used dark escape since the BLight days, and even then they had return as well. Dark Escape was only in case they were bad and didn't prekite or return or got hit by a shadowstepping spike with a kd. This is pretty close to the Stanced LoD infuser(not sure about exact name) in tested(might deserve its own article, though, still), as well. Replace dark escape with return, change attributes to heal 14, div 10, prot 10, rest in shadow, and replace dwayna's with RoF, putting Dwayna's as a variant for Dismiss Condition. Do that and you'll have the typical LoD/Infuse Mo/A build(which is typical for the reason that it works well). --Edru viransu 08:52, 3 July 2007 (CEST)

Pretty ownage.

Readem (talk *pvxcontribs ) 09:06, 3 July 2007 (CEST)
 * I've actually played with that EXACT bar, attributes and everything, and found it to be less effective. RoF's cast time is nice, but it rarely does as much as Dwayna's Kiss.  You would have to get hit for over 25 just for RoF to break even with Dwayna's Kiss when non of the conditions were met.  Of course you can use RoF on yourself, but in GvG you won't be needing many self heals.  As for Return vs Dark Escape, that is very debatable.  The only real problem with return is the fact that you can't use it while knocked down.  You could say use it before you get knocked down, but way too often you have a warrior pounding on something beside you, then suddenly switch to you and shock or Devestating Hammer you before you have time to click an ally and return, and even then half the time you end up fairly close to where you started.  As for the attribute spread, you are absolutely right and I'm going to change it right now. VegaObscura 13:09, 3 July 2007 (CEST)

I'm just happy that people are submitting decent builds. I just had (another) awful experience PUGing, so it's nice to meet people who know their stuff. On the build though, you definitely want less SA, Return > DE, and RoF. You also need to fill out a few sections of the build article, like equipment (high e set, low e set, I'm sure you know the drill). See PvXwiki:Style and formatting - Krowman    09:32, 3 July 2007 (CEST)
 * The link you posted directly conflicts with what you just said. The style and formatting guide says only list essential items and weapons, and to be as brief as possible.  All decent monks already know about high and low energy sets, and the armor you choose is no more specific to this build than any other monk build. VegaObscura 12:59, 3 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Admin just asked that an article be further expanded or Fleshed out. Sure any decent monk is going to know to bring such and such sets naturally, but those that are learning are going to need to know it.  I would also like to see your take on applicable variants posted. Shireen  sysop  13:42, 3 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Doesn't matter if Krowman is an admin or not, that is irrelevant to the discussion. His word is as important as everyone else's; no more, no less. Thinking otherwise would be a mistake. - Auron 14:05, 3 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Yes, please don't take my word to mean anything more than anyone else's, simply because I'm an admin. We administrate users, not content. - [[Image:Kowal.jpg|15px]] Krowman   18:57, 3 July 2007 (CEST)
 * And yet, you feel the need to flaunt the fact in your signature. If you really wanted to remain seen as a regular user, you wouldn't have that in your sig... &mdash; Skuld 14:25, 4 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Assuming that the average reader is a decent monk isn't a good idea tbh :p
 * Pretty standard bar, no flaws that I can see. I'd recommend adding a bit of a variants section (dark escape out for return etc), you can move your existing notes down there as well. Straight 5's from me as soon as voting starts :) - Auron 13:03, 3 July 2007 (CEST)

what a stupidass build, how is it supposed to stop stuff dying without RoF &mdash; Skuld 14:07, 3 July 2007 (CEST)

So much talk, so little action. I've fixed the build. 87.74.52.141 14:45, 3 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Except for the part where "This is the basic Light of Deliverance monk build used in GvG in the current meta." LoD monks don't use RoF in the current meta. - Auron 14:48, 3 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Well you say that, but they do. Maybe bad monks don't use it, I don't know, but 90% of LoD monks in reasonable level GvG would never drop RoF.  If you don't have RoF and your other monk is out of energy/KD'd/Shamed/Diversioned/dead for a few seconds, you WILL die as soon as you get some attention from a warrior while Return is recharging.  87.74.52.141 14:59, 3 July 2007 (CEST)
 * And here's a bit of supporting evidence: http://www.teamquitter.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1915. OK, it's not the most erudite thread in the world but most of the people on there play the game at a high level and there is a clear consensus that not taking RoF is crazy.  87.74.52.141 15:16, 3 July 2007 (CEST)
 * I agree. &mdash; Skuld 15:47, 3 July 2007 (CEST)
 * No RoF is just...blasphemy. How many times does that skill save a life when it nullifies that 100+ Melee crit from a Dervish or Warrior? Like a million times a match I tell ya. --Hikari 19:42, 3 July 2007 (CEST)
 * See my bar? It ownz. Readem (talk *pvxcontribs ) 20:22, 3 July 2007 (CEST)
 * I am a professional LoD monk in GvG, and I have used both RoF and Dwayna's Kiss among other things. I have been in multiple top 100 guilds and I can assure you in this build, Dwayna's Kiss is more effective than RoF.  RoF is in the variants section for people that like it more, but it doesn't work as well and that's why I put Dwayna's Kiss in the main build.  As for the person insisting you need RoF to stay alive when your other monk drops, you have plenty of self healing for that time.  My usual habit is to prot myself immediately and when I need healing, use LoD, Dismiss Condition, and Signet of Rejuvenation.  About half of the high rank LoD monks take RoF. VegaObscura 22:15, 3 July 2007 (CEST)
 * It's got Dwaynas and RoF, and you're a scrub. I could care less what anyone takes, I want whats effective, and RoF is that. &mdash; Skuld 22:20, 3 July 2007 (CEST)
 * You're embarrassing yourself with childish namecalling.  And stop vandalizing my build with what you think it should be. VegaObscura 22:21, 3 July 2007 (CEST)
 * RoF should be on the bar. Not favoring without. Readem (talk *pvxcontribs ) 22:23, 3 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Not vandalising, i'm vanquishing and smiting! &mdash; Skuld 22:26, 3 July 2007 (CEST)

RoF added, with Dwayna's Kiss in the variants section. Judging by the above conversation, it seems RoF is easier for beginners to use. VegaObscura 22:27, 3 July 2007 (CEST)
 * About all of the good LoD monks take RoF, also: "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it." RoF isn't easier for beginners to use, it's just better than Dwayna's Kiss. --Edru viransu 22:30, 3 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Good monks can use Blinding Flash, Ward Against Elements, Supportive Spirit, Reversal of Damage and Signet of Devotion can do fine, does that mean we should list that? RoF is the best available, screw you. &mdash; Skuld 22:31, 3 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Good choice. DK was very useful up to even a little while ago, as it + LoD made an effective counter to all the hex-pressure teams out there. With the recent nerfs, they are starting to fall out of fashion, so RoF can take precedence again. - [[Image:Kowal.jpg|15px]] Krowman   22:32, 3 July 2007 (CEST)
 * What are you talking about? DK hasn't been nerfed. VegaObscura 22:41, 3 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Hexes, fool. &mdash; Skuld 22:43, 3 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Most hexes havn't been nerfed either. With just 2 enchantments and/or hexes, Dwayna's Kiss is stronger than RoF could be at its very best. VegaObscura 22:46, 3 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Hexes are out. [Hand] was running hex-way pressure, so [vD] and [PnH] started running expel Paras, and or DH. Hex meta was killed. Can't slip DK while daze, or under a spike. RoF is better then DK in almost all ways imo. Readem (talk *pvxcontribs ) 22:52, 3 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Yes I am aware hex meta is gone for now, but it wasn't nerfed like Krowman said. VegaObscura 22:54, 3 July 2007 (CEST)
 * RM, SS, MoR, FB, CN, CP, BV all got nerfed, while Convert Hexes and HEV got buffed. Hexers are gone. Check GWiki update notes for additional details. - [[Image:Kowal.jpg|15px]] <font face="dauphin" color="maroon">Krowman   22:59, 3 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Deep wound > Dwayna's Kiss. --Edru viransu 23:10, 3 July 2007 (CEST)
 * W...T...F...? How can people be arguing between RoF (uber pro) and Dwayna's (pro) and put in Sig of Rejuv (meh) as a definite???  The world has gone mad.  Sig of Rejuv is OKish, but in practice you rarely get the bonus healing because people you want to heal are often running, not attacking.  RoF and Dwayna's are the way to go with that bar.  87.74.52.150 03:09, 4 July 2007 (CEST)
 * This guy knows his stuff. &mdash; Skuld 03:21, 4 July 2007 (CEST)
 * And as for hexes being gone from the meta - did anyone even watch the last monthly tournament? The vD vs Cry semi-final was 4 hexers vs 4 hexers (counting the flaggers), and a lot of people are running that build or RenO's dual sin + dervish eurohex variant on the ladder now. 87.74.23.208 03:21, 4 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Sig of rejuvenation is better imo. I always just replace SoR with DK when necessary. Bonus healing hardly matters. Use LoD m8, it's your elite for a reason. <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 12:47, 4 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Depends on the build you're facing. The majority of monks use Dwayna's Kiss, and for a good reason. SoR doesn't provide nearly a powerful a "biggie" heal as Dwayna's Kiss does. Many people mention that SoR (like with Sig of Devo) as a "free" heal. But when your "free" heal is weak, you often need to follow up on it with another heal. Because of the unpredictability of SoR, it's not essentially as useful as Dwayna's Kiss. Another important point is the popularity of hex teams, and the popularity of Aegis. Since your team will constantly be under the effects of Aegis (99% of teams run some sort of Aegis Chain), DK heals for consistently more than two casts of SoR. It's even better with hex teams, against which DK heals constantly for over 200+ Points (after DF Bonus). Many teams are unable to protect against such hexes, and SoR is just useless against it. RoF is able to counter the large packets of damage, but when there are so few, you'll have to rely on DK and LoD to keep the party up. SoR is pretty much useless in this case.
 * Damn, that was a lot of bullshit. But to put it all into one statement anyone can understand: Dwayna's Kiss > Signet of Rejuvenation. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 12:56, 4 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Also, a full article on why SoR sucks is up on the QQ forums, if anyone wants to read more. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 13:04, 4 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Well, hex teams are really no longer the meta. [Hand] had the three-way hex lineup in the beginning, which dominated pretty much everyone. Meta-shift however, caused teams to bring back some very strange Builds. Expel Paragons, BA with purge, and even empathetic Rt's. [vD] started to run DH even. [PnH] ran duel expel. Because of these shifts, as well as a few buffs to hex removal and nerfs to hexes such as RM, Hex-Meta collapsed. A few teams will try it now and then, most particularly [Hand], but it doesn't work nearly as well. Aegis-chains are popular as ever, but any good team runs MoD now. SoR is a extremely useful. It is both energy efficient, useful when healing the front-lines, and can be used to recover after an infuse. Works under both Migraine and Panic. And, can optimally heal for over 160 health. Good teams easily are able to take advantage of the poor split-ability of Hex-meta. And you may be thinking of thet match between [Hand] and [vD], as [Cry] was running Ranger Spike. [vD] hex-way Panic/Hex eater. And [Hand] Migraine/RM. <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 13:20, 4 July 2007 (CEST)
 * It's a terrible recovery after an infuse (what, 60 points? Most just LoD). The frontline is usually killed throug hex snares and then being spiked - countered by a well placed prot and an Dwayna's Kiss. Any smart Warrior would begin to fall back if they are being spiked, and would not just begin attacking. If anything, the logic being using SoR is reversed. Another problem is that every guild you just mentioned runs Dwayna's Kiss on their LoD bar. Not only is DK more effective overall, it's simply the standard. That's what's on the main bar. SoR has some... unique uses, but DK is simply better, and it's standard - why it's on the main bar. SoR merely deserves to be a variant. Hex may not be the build that's the "meta", but it is still very popular (what I said above). Also note that MoD is not able to completely counter Aegis teams (user only approximates when to use it and on what targets) and is based a lot on luck. The chances of facing a team that is able to meet every single counter to Dwayna's Kiss is rare. DK is simply more consistant. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 13:28, 4 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Hell yeah MoD counters Aegis. Guilds use both, just as much. It recovers the same as an LoD (if not more), which is usually shut-down by SoH. Are you serious? [Hand] runs SoR without fail. They also pack SoD with Deny. You will usually see them using only signets fool. DK is hardly consistent. This Build cannot recover from an infuse while LoD is shutdown. Being reliant on your elite is bound to FAIL. Offensively, SoR is the better choice. If your team has any credibility, you are going remove Blurred, and have the front-liners keep pressuring. Falling back, usually means fail. DP stack, combined with the other team being able to be on the offensive. DK is not "Standard", it is easily replaced by numerous guilds for SoR. If your monks are so incapable, that they cannot keep snares and blurred off your front-line, just gg. <font color="Black">Readem  (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 13:40, 4 July 2007 (CEST)
 * -.- Again, someone's saying so and so is good because a high rank guild used it? Removing hexes and snares while you're face is being spiked off doesn't do anything. Any smart monk wouldn't waste 10 energy infusing the warrior. The solution? DK the damn guy and move on. DK is standard - just go on Observer mode. SoR is not a good way to recover after Infusing. And remember that there are two monks. Also, you're not being reliant on your elite, you're using it. That's why you have the darned thing equipped. If someone doesn't use a skill because they don't want to be reliant on it then there's easily a problem. And no, falling back does not mean fail. Daek put up a great article (again, on the QQ forums) about falling back and pushing forward. Note that a group pushes/retreats based on their backline. With DK as a powerheal when you need it, a group is able to push/fall back more easily than a group that relies on SoR. Also note that many, many high ranked guilds use LoD after Infusing. Why? Because it's so darned convenient. Being snared and blurred is inevitable in many cases. When your frontline is deep in the enemy's backline, pummeling their monks, you won't be able to remove them easily (as was evident in the June tourny finals, where, oh, both teams also used DK). HAnD is able to pull it off nicely, but that doesn't mean it's an obvious choice to replace DK. DK is simply the standard. Anyone who goes observes a game can see that. SoR is a variant, like HAnD uses it as. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 13:50, 4 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Also, every point you're bringing up has nothing to do with Dwayna's Kiss directly, but indirectly. That already shows how DK is hard to counter, compared to SoR which is easily counted directly - teammate having stopped attacking/casting, etc... &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 14:02, 4 July 2007 (CEST)
 * If you lose against a team spiking your damn warriors, your team FAILS. QQ forums mean nothing, they were talking about Smurfing once, and then out of no where began making gay jokes. Srsly. Any good monk would use SoD, and then DH. What do you know :O, you both healed him and removed snares *gasp*. Good monks rarely need to use their elites to heal a party. They function perfectly well, without. Pulling back, means your team cannot handle the pressure, and has to retreat to base; letting the opposing team control the flag-stand, as well as letting them gank your fleeing party. More often then not, teams lose after a retreat because they cannot recover. DK is used because its easy to use, and works. Not that it works well, or the best in particular. SoR is not countered as simply as that...sure not to full efficiency, but it is still a decent energy-free heal/possible boon heal. I am not saying that DK is not good. One can clearly see that. I am merely saying that SoR is NOT bad. Hand lost in the T to vD, merely because vD has more hex removal, while Hand had very little. They were also using an HB Monk which tbh, should have failed immediately but they make it work. If you are unable to see the viability of BOTH skills Rapta, then you obv fail as an "Old school" monk. <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 14:46, 4 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Actually, the guys there pretty much know what they're talking about when it comes to being serious. If a team doesn't need the elite skill, then why have it? It's because it is needed. And not to full efficiency isn't a big understatement. Try... 50%, even less if they have Deep Wound. I never said that SoR wasn't viable; if you think you can't manage your energy, then by all means, go for it. This has nothing to do with "old school" monking. Teams push/pull back when the party is unable to keep up the heals. Cheap, powerful healing counters that (Dwayna's Kiss). DK is simply better when it comes to effectiveness (again, not saying SoR is not viable). You keep bringing up HAnD, while in reality, they can run whatever the hell they want and still win. It's one guild anyways, comapared to the so many more guilds that run DK. I am saying SoR is bad compared to DK. If it really was bad then I would have removed it altogether and say something along the lines of "lawl, noob". Anyways, since I got my point through (also me not caring and not knowing why I bothered typing all this), you can have the last word here, if it means anything. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 15:06, 4 July 2007 (CEST)
 * A great number of Guilds run SoR. Hand is just one in particular. Dwayna's Kiss is pretty old school. Both have flaws, and I am positive Rapta, then many would argue the effectiveness of SoR vs DK. Any good guild can run w/e the hell they want. [cow] won countless times using a full paragon/SS War teams. [Vd] can manage to hold the fag-stand with literally 3 people >.>. [IQ] can run eliteless Monks. You are wrong on more points then one, and you fail to see it. I personally, do care (combined with intensifying boredom and stress). Go on and believe every word Tommy says about monking, but just fyi, he ran a few games with just RC >.> and some dags. <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 15:16, 4 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Rapta criticizes Readem for saying SoR is good because a high-ranked guild ran it, then goes on to say that something else is good because a high-ranked guild ran it. Also, Rapta, while it is true that both guild's in the finals had Dwayna's Kiss on their LoD/Infuse, PnH's LoD/Infuse ran Signet of Rejuvenation as well, and PnH were building against hexes to a significant extent. Your example of the finals wasn't very good. Also, where is this article on the QQ forums discussing it? Tommy said he was going to post one, but I don't see it anywhere, yet. --Edru viransu 16:38, 4 July 2007 (CEST)
 * I was using his logic for that example. And there's actually a link at the top, surprisingly. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 16:51, 4 July 2007 (CEST)
 * The only link to QQ's forum I see here is to a thread where there is no real consensus about LoD bars except that RoF OWNNNZZZZZZ and none of the indepth analyses I had hoped your mention indicated. --Edru viransu 17:19, 4 July 2007 (CEST)
 * (ri)Rapta's right, kiss is awesome. - <font color="#336666">Skakid9090 13:31, 4 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Never said he/she wasn't. SoR is just as good imo, if not better. I rarely run kiss. <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 13:50, 4 July 2007 (CEST)
 * That's a personal preference. Kiss is better than SoR. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 13:51, 4 July 2007 (CEST)
 * That too is a personal preference. VegaObscura 16:16, 4 July 2007 (CEST)

I thought consensus was that Return was the way to go here? I'm putting it back into the build, as that is the build that most of us voted on. - <font face="dauphin" color="maroon">Krowman    00:22, 4 July 2007 (CEST)

Name
Not a good idea to have another "slash" in the name. &mdash; Rapta   (talk|contribs) 13:53, 4 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Now the name is too generic...as this is not the only LoD/Infuser run...not at all. <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 13:58, 4 July 2007 (CEST)
 * So you're saying there's another version of the Mo/A LoD Infuser? &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 14:01, 4 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Are you saying that we should give everything generic names, and hope that ppl notice the professions? <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 14:08, 4 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Pretty much, yeah. It's not fully utilizing the Shadow Arts line anyways, just a skill. And I am assuming only the non retarded people come around here anyways. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 14:12, 4 July 2007 (CEST)
 * I for some reason highly doubt that lulz... <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 14:17, 4 July 2007 (CEST)
 * IMO there should be a notice saying "No builds using Mending". That'll ward them off. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 14:19, 4 July 2007 (CEST)
 * WASP lmao. <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 14:21, 4 July 2007 (CEST)
 * /timeout - <font color="#336666">Skakid9090 14:06, 4 July 2007 (CEST)

Quick Number Crunching
Found this interesting while I was bored.
 * Since we're assuming both monks aren't retarded and know how to manage their energy, Energy Management won't be a part of this issue:
 * Dwayna's Kiss at 14 Healing Prayers, no conditions met: 57 HP + 35 HP = 92 HP Healed.
 * Signet of Rejuvenation at 14 Healing Prayers, no conditions met: 75 HP Healed.
 * Net difference: 17 HP
 * Dwayna's Kiss at 14 Healing Prayers, 1 Hex/Ench on target: 125 HP Healed.
 * Signet of Rejuvenation at 14 Healing Prayers, condition met: 142 HP Healed.
 * Net difference: 17 HP

From that, we see that the Net Difference is the same, with Dwayna's Kiss healing for more with no conditions met, but Signet of Rejuvenation healing for more with one condition met.

However, Dwayna's Kiss has a 3 second recharge time, compared to the 8 second recharge time. Roughly heals for two times more when spammed.

However when two conditions of Dwayna's Kiss are met, Dwayna's Kiss heals for 158, a net difference of 16. For the metagame Attunement + Aegis, Conjure + Aegis, neglecting preprot, the second conditional bonus is almost constantly met. However, for Midliners to manage their energy/staying alive, they must Kite, pause between spell casts, etc, meaning even the first condition is rarely met. As we all know, kiting = good, standing still = bad. So while Dwayna's Kiss takes advantage of a target being pressured, Signet of Rejuvenation, again, takes the role of Signet of Devotion, and takes advantage of all the wrong things (allies not kiting when taking damage, but casting/attacking instead). When do you need to heal? When the target is taking damage/pressured/cannot kite, and not when the target is attacking/not taking damage/on the offense. What's the logic here? Make your heals count. If you feel like healing after the target has taken the brunt of the damage, you're a bad monk. Unplug your computer.

To summarize:
 * DK - heals more when target ally is hexed/protted/pressured
 * SoR - heals more when target ally is retarded/not kiting/sucks

So putting it plainly, DK outperforms SoR on experienced monks. Why have SoR at all then? Simply to please the less skilled players. &mdash; Rapta   (talk|contribs) 16:34, 4 July 2007 (CEST)


 * Also, note that this is taking into account more professional play (where even being hexed is also, not avoidable). Experience may lead to personal choices, but this is a plain fact. The numbers and facts play in the favor of DK. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 16:37, 4 July 2007 (CEST)


 * Dwayna's Kiss is obviously far superior to Signet of Rejuvenation in terms of healing. Signet of Rejuvenation is, in a way, an energy-management skill in addition to a non-negligible heal. If you're going to be running dismiss condition, you're generally going to be running RoF-LoD-Infuse-PS/SB-Veil-defensive skill-Dismiss-SoR or Dwayna's Kiss or Heal Other(rather rare). Heal Other is the most powerful Healing-wise, usually. Signet of Rejuvenation is the most efficient, with Dwayna's Kiss as a happy medium, fairly efficient if used wisely, and not bad for healing.


 * The reason you have either DK or SoR or Other or Gaze in your bar, is that you want a direct heal. If you want a small heal, put RoF on the target. SoR is definately not as efficient in healing targets as Kiss is (explained above). &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 16:53, 4 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Can't get more efficient than free. --Edru viransu 16:59, 4 July 2007 (CEST)
 * heal party heals for 608, while dwayna's heals for 125 with 1 ench/hex. - <font color="#336666">Skakid9090  17:09, 4 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Stupid Skakid, Rapta has made it quite clear he knows all! <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 17:14, 4 July 2007 (CEST)
 * The argument 'know how to manage their energy' is just stupid. You do not have an endless supply of energy, regardless of how good you are.  Without any skills to regain your energy like channeling, it only comes down to not hitting someones health cap.  If you had endless energy, of course DK would be better.  But you don't.  Teams normally die when either something gets spiked too fast for the monk to use his skills, or when the monks run out of energy.  Neither of the two skills help against the first, but having a free heal enables monks to survive much longer before their energy reaches the point where things start dying. VegaObscura 20:06, 4 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Indent properly plz. And if you're smart, you'd not run on a net loss of energy, but a net gain of energy (recover more energy than you spend) so that you always have some in case it's needed. A good monk that manages their energy properly (preprots when it's needed, not overhealing) actually does have an endless supply of energy. You're not spamming every single spell you have through the entire battle. And to reach a point where everything starts dying, means that your entire party has already broken (not one monk's energy bar). The solution to that? Have the players suck less. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 10:20, 5 July 2007 (CEST)

Great numbers, and while I won't get into which skill is the better choice (I've used both on different occasions), I'd just like to point out that though dwayna's kiss really shines against hex builds, it's those same builds that will have migraine (and sometimes panic). Migraine will greatly hurt DK's ability to heal and also set you up for a very easy power leak or dshot, but panic will make it very inefficient to heal with the signet. Also, another thing the numbers crunch forgot to take into account is that if you're any good, you'll probably be casting DK under a 40/40 set, giving it a really nice recharge and activation to prevent interrupts. To defend SoR a bit, it can be fairly decent against condition pressure, where your party member may be at lower health but not necessarily under attack, so it's not always the case that your party member is retarded for the condition to trigger :P Holymasamune 03:06, 30 July 2007 (CEST)

LOL
I hope you noticed Rapta, that a good majority of the people on the QQ forums, are against Dwayna's, and FOR RoF and SoR. Just a reminder of how much you fail ;). <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 18:54, 4 July 2007 (CEST)


 * IMO you 2 took this discussion too far. dwayna's = great heal, SoR = energy saving heal. geez. - <font color="#336666">Skakid9090 19:06, 4 July 2007 (CEST)


 * You didn't even read anything. The majority of them are against using SoR unless you suck and can't manage your energy.
 * Also, funny quote: "if you run it for too long your penis turns into a vagina". Even the people that run SoR are against it. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 10:15, 5 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Actually, the opinions there were like so:
 * Sig of Rejuv and RoF: 5 people
 * Dwayna's and RoF: 1 person(who actually said that it's mostly preference)
 * Words of Comfort and RoF: 1 person
 * RoF, Dwayna's, and Sig: 4 people
 * Heal Other and RoF: 1 person
 * The extent of anti-Rejuv feeling is Tommy laughing at the OP of the thread for considering rejuv, one person expressing agreement, and one person saying that he rarely managed to fulfill the condition, but some people do manage to do pretty well with it. --Edru viransu 10:44, 5 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Count better. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 11:16, 5 July 2007 (CEST)


 * seriously, shut the fuck up. you like kiss better, readem likes SoR better. whatever the zomg uber l33t top 100 mega guilds use is beside the point. - <font color="#336666">Skakid9090 11:22, 5 July 2007 (CEST)


 * Calm down, really. I didn't start this random header with the title "LOL" anyways. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 11:30, 5 July 2007 (CEST)


 * That was aimed at Readem as well. why are you even argueing about this? some people like kiss, some people like SoR, it's preference. you both said you've seen both on top 100 obs so they both must be usable. - <font color="#336666">Skakid9090 11:37, 5 July 2007 (CEST)


 * Because there's nothing to talk about around here? Maybe someone needs to build a bar? &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 11:56, 5 July 2007 (CEST)


 * Plz notice small bar --> - <-- (Best we can afford sorry :/.) <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 21:12, 5 July 2007 (CEST)


 * we could have a bake sale... - <font color="#336666">Skakid9090 21:14, 5 July 2007 (CEST)

Has anyone noticed that theres 201 attribute points used? 72.196.131.42 22:55, 5 July 2007 (CEST)

just a thought
This build doesnt have res. Thats fine for AB, but if youre in.. persay TA or RA youre going to be unanimously hated by your team. Last one alive, og gnoes no res lawl.


 * This is for GvG. Monks don't carry a res.  —ǥȓɩηɔɧ 〚₮/ḉ〛 20:31, 9 August 2007 (CEST)

Monks don't carry res in PvP regardless if it's GvG or not. <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 20:57, 9 August 2007 (CEST)


 * You fail. Everyone knows that Sig of Return Monks is the best thing ever. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 21:18, 9 August 2007 (CEST)


 * Yeah Readem, what you been smokin ? ^_~ --Hikari 17:57, 29 August 2007 (CEST)

Raep
Raep't. —ǥrɩɳsɧ  ƿoɲ  18:18, 9 November 2007 (CET)
 * Good bye, my sweet prince.[[Image:Darksig.JPG]] 15:45, 16 November 2007 (CET)