User talk:Excluded/Deep Physway/Archive 1

Times?--TahiriVeila 00:16, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Deepphysway.jpg
 * Did this using this build around in 40 min as u said NegroHunter 21:49, July 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * Fairly easy setup to run, due to the problems of running ER bonders countered by the two monk with a copy of Seed of Life each and one UA with overkill Party Heals. Making it the most failsafe way to clear the Deep, without Speedclear Tactics.  Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 00:26, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * oh, by the way, six of those people were pugs.-- D igit0l Digitalfear_Sig.jpg Q u33r  00:45, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * So, why do you use E/Mo's when 90% of the deep doesn't hit over 25 anyways? Life   Guardian  02:53, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * he does have a point. the only foes that do over that damage are outcast but they have mass chilblains anyway - in fact much of the deep has pretty crippling enchant removal (namely why perma never worked) and a room specifically for no enchants which can be skipped, but it's difficult and messy. Athrun [[File:Athrun_dot.png]]Feya 09:56, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, Rippers deal quite high damage to casters, and the Aspects themselves. Also sappings throw out alot of packets. Remember there is no designated tank in this team, no one absorbs the damage, so your view on the damage aspect might be slightly twisted. The Outcast mobs are the toughest part, but are a piece of cake when you have Orders and GDW to knocklock. The Anti-Enchant room is actually very easy, and my favourite room; you all ball up on the stairs, then 1...2..3... RUNTOASPECTANDGANK. It's hilarious how effective that method is, and fast. Generally no one dies unless they lag on the run. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 10:01, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Why exactly do you want to take the tanks out? even with a single tank a balanced looking team can get under 20 easily. Athrun [[File:Athrun_dot.png]]Feya 10:22, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's our care-free playing style. Dedicated tanks seem pointless, and we much prefer being able to run into a mob head-first as much as possible, and be out the other end in 5 seconds. Firstly, how does one tank make it 20 20 minutes faster? And having a tank in a melee heavy team is tricky when the mob will quickly decide to change opponents, rendering the "tank" pointless. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 10:28, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * What the hell are you talking about? Athrun [[File:Athrun_dot.png]]Feya 10:37, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Why no tanks? We don't take tanks. Ever. They aren't needed for any area in the game. Some people like running tank and we're fine with that. Most melee players want to see numbers and this team absolutely gives them that.Roarer 10:45, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay so I asked why no tanks and your best reason is that you don't like them... You do realise teams are many more times effective with one, especially in the deep. As proof 1 and 2. The first picture shows you can run something "balanced" like physway, even with a single tank and still achieve pretty nice times. We later refined the build in the first pic to: 1 tank, 1 curses nec, 1 panic mes, 3 monks, 1 weap spell/eoe rit, 1 porogon, 2 100b, 2 hammer warriors (but everyone was too drunk to get a better time) Athrun [[File:Athrun_dot.png]]Feya  10:53, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * We are offering an alternative. We play for fun, not times.Roarer 10:57, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Infact what the screenshot shows is that if everyone has ally-shadowsteps it speeds rooms up which you can run right past. It's not fun for many people, and difficult to grasp. (tanking that is).  Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 11:03, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * how exactly does the screenshot show that? recall is for the gate only... I'd argue tanking deep is one of the most fun things I've done in Guild Wars and near to the sole reason I'll still log on occasionally. Athrun [[File:Athrun_dot.png]]Feya 11:11, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Lets get back to Deep Physway. Discussing the build people have been running in the deep for years seems pointless.Roarer 11:13, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I've played both going back to extensive 4-4-4 play. It's a hell of a lot more fun getting to haphazardly rush into areas with virtually no consequences than it ever was to do controlled recall shove/meld tank and spank.  No doubt this will lead to more "bandwagoning" accusations which is true on both sides of the fence.  Try it first, and evaluate it on effectiveness, not on speed.  If speed were the only criteria PvX would be a barren wasteland of builds with only 1 "best" option for everything.  71.56.32.112 14:41, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * ^ agree. The playerbase need alternatives. They obviously don't enjoy TanknSpank method because no-one plays the Deep anymore bar ZQs. We're trying to bring some fun back to the Elite areas of the game.Roarer 15:53, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Speed is how you judge effectiveness when it comes to elite areas and guildwars is not fun-- Relyk  talk  22:17, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Relyk; this is a game. If you do not play a game for entertainment/fun, what the hell do you play for? Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 22:29, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Which is why i don't get on guildwars as much and play new and exciting games-- Relyk  talk  22:43, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Relyk, you should probably go comment on those more exciting games instead of sabotaging this one.Aina Galamarth 02:03, July 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Then why bitch and whine on PvX if you...oh whatever-- D igit0l Digitalfear_Sig.jpg Q u33r  23:17, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I see Shoot Low in that pic. Ju ze JuzeAvatar.jpg 08:32, July 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Congrats. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 10:05, July 27, 2010 (UTC)

Feast of Souls
>Heal Party.Roarer 13:32, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * i agree193.35.132.150 16:08, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Seed of Life>all--<font color="MidnightBlue"> D igit0l Digitalfear_Sig.jpg<font color="SteelBlue"> Q u33r  18:13, July 3, 2010 (UTC)

SoH
Maintained on 6 ppl without any form of real energy managment? :o <font color="Maroon"> Tyrael <font color="Black"> Strikes Back-  13:33, July 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Soul reaping says hi.  Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 14:42, July 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Although if you are struggling, you can take Angorogon's Gaze or SoLS over Smite Hex or the Resurrection skill. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 10:46, July 7, 2010 (UTC)

sins
wouldn't 100b wars be better if you're using a mop nuker? Notorious BW 05:21, July 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * We generally use what we can find. Sometimes we use 5 sins 1 war, 4 sins, war, derv, etc. But I still prefer the assassins. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 06:59, July 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * aight. Would this same set up work for urgoz? just with necrotic transversal on one of the necros and eoe on the sos? Notorious BW 00:40, July 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * We did it a few times in about the same time as Deep (40 odd) without the use of EoE. Mainly because none of us knew that it helped for beating Urgoz, but we took him down... Somehow. Even with all the retarded knockdown spams  Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 04:15, July 8, 2010 (UTC)

Panic
>Deep.--<font color="MidnightBlue"> D igit0l <font color="SteelBlue"> Q u33r  18:04, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

Mesmer can be replaced
Mesmer could be an open slot for physicals. Last run we did 6 physicals and it took 37 minutes.

Speed
If you really wanted to finish Deep for it's awesome chest drops, you can probably skip two more rooms; the Sapping that appear after Scorpion room, and Sapping room with the Kana in the middle. But if it were me, I'd want to kill everything for as much loot as possible.  Minion  07:16, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

Remove Andy and Life Guardian Ratings

 * When you post shitty builds, they get trash votes. Cool huh? Andy 01:00, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Funny. I thought we just got a 25 minute run with this exact setup. yeahtrashem. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 01:27, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Aren't you quite the pro. But I must be missing where speed is mentioned... so my vote still stands. <font color="Red">A <font color="Black">ndy 01:34, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * You've obviously never been to the Deep without a tank. There is damage involved. Cover Enchants exist. Your reasons are ill-thought out. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 01:45, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * No, you're wrong and you're stupid. This build is far from great, partly because several of your player slots are wasted. The fact you're crying about votes that put this in "Good" is nothing but fucking retarded, as it is far from a "Great" build. <font color="Red">A <font color="Black">ndy 01:51, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * And tank and spank isn't wasting slots with three tanks? Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 02:08, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * At times all three tanks are doing three separate things so no, it is not wasted. Also, why are you comparing it to tank and spank? It's not mentioned in the vote so it's useless trying to fuel this argument with it. <font color="Red">A <font color="Black">ndy 02:13, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well all your vote mentions is that there's enchant removal. It really doesn't matter if you play properly. Even if you play badly, you'll get results. If you think you can get the same results without PB or tanks, be my guest. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 02:41, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * If you read it again, you'll find it mentions more than just enchantment removal. You can easily get better results if you use more AoE damage and take advantage of 100b + MoP. A seed monk can easily deal with the damage without prot bond, as nothing (except leviathan, who is ignored) hits hard enough to kill the frontline in a couple of hits. <font color="Red">A <font color="Black">ndy 14:36, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Um, Aspects and Kanaxai says HI and if frontline is wanding stupid, Nightmares. All bark, no bite, your saying this is bad by theory, prove us wrong. Post us a build > this. Otherwise, your argument sucks and your votes get trashed. Oh, post us a picture so your not BSing Infuser God 14:54, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow, seriously fix your armour. I'm not going to make physway builds and test them in a game I barely play, just to prove to some idiot that can't see the flaws in his copy paste build. The rest of your post makes no sense so I'm going to ignore it. Stop typing like a retard... unless you are one, in which case just stop typing. <font color="Red">A <font color="Black">ndy 15:14, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Troll arguments are troll. Sorry Andy, you must get out of pre-searing Ascalon to make proper arguments. Infuser God 15:38, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * I suggest you try re-reading the last sentence in my previous comment. None of the statements in my rating have yet been proven wrong, so I would say my arguments must have been strong. Also, try reading PW:SIGN, it will help with the attempts to not look like a retard. <font color="Red">A <font color="Black">ndy 15:44, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Note to self, custom sign = bad, I've been trying to fix that but couldn't find where to change it (Wiki noob). I get what you are saying, some builds aren't needed, foes aren't that strong, etc. This build is fast and easy. Easy being the key word. When you do deep with a traditional tank-n-spank, get 4 nukers, 3 healers, 3 puller tanks. Puller tanks pulls mob, pulls them into a ball, team waits for call, then spike. With this, the only thing is target and kill. There is hardly any need for Deep experience, no vent needed at all and easily get ~35 minutes. You don't have to worry about noob pullers or noob monks. It is fast and easy, why hate that?  Infuser God 16:52, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * As I've already said, I made no comparison between this and tank-n-spank. Using it as part of an argument against my vote is useless. <font color="Red">A <font color="Black">ndy 17:11, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Useless my ass, stop sabotaging our votes troll. It only proves that your votes and suggestions are out of anger, not good arguments. You provide no good evidence to back up your arguments and you done nothing but bash the build. Could I get a IP suspension for Andy? He's just going to keep sabotaging the build out of anger and is not going to provide anything useful until he cools off. Infuser God 17:21, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1. This isn't GWG, we don't hand out bans for people having opinions. 2. Andy actually knows what he's doing in PvE. 3. Change your signature to resemble your name, Infuser God does not equal Zodiac Meteor. -- Short 17:28, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Chill out, Zodiac. Let's just address all the issues Andy has with the setup and why he believes it won't work/be suitable for Deep:


 * Heavy Enchant Removal- Looks like a daunting setback in theory, but in practice all it means is you have to prioritise targeting to the foes that strip and dodge Chilblains. Losing Prot Bond is fine for a few, but losing ER is worse.
 * Two ER= one Seed monk. This... I really do not understand, and I don't believe you are being serious. It means you would have two Seeds of Life, Blood Bond and Feast of Souls keep you up; no Infuse. Explains HOW one monk can replace two ERs, and I'll let it pass.  Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 17:29, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * lol-- Oskar 17:32, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * (RI)I challenge any of the so-called experts around here to produce a pug that can clear the Deep HM in <40 minutes with no real build restrictions. That means no Steel Wall or any of its variants, no manly, no Spiteful spike, no DwG or any of this other slop circulating around.  Put up or shut up.  76.17.97.158 17:38, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * I've done spiteful spike, it sucks. It's a godly fast team build, but the reason why it sucks is because it requires excellent teamwork, constant communication and no room for error. I got to Kanaxai in 20 minutes, 3 people couldn't get end chest because they fell behind and we couldn't go back for them. It's a godly fast build, but any mistake will cost you the end chest. Manly is the same way, requires perfect team work to work. DwG is tank-n-spank, so yeah...
 * You don't have to challenge them to play different team builds Minion, I'll tell you that the record fast Manly and Spiteful team builds are hard. Any mistake could kill the team or cost you the end chest. Two guys in the Spiteful run died and was left alone because they were Crippled by thorn flowers and mob got them. Over the few time I've done it, I failed half the time. In the scorpion room, three people had to kill the Spirit of Disenchantment for the shadow meld tank but kills the Jellyfish by accident, leaving the team to the tanks mob that he was holding. Another one is the 3 second + no spell = 50 damage room. Team took more damage than the monks can handle because of the monks was on her high energy set for heal party BEFORE entering the room. At Kanaxai one of warriors aggroed a wondering Sap, team died. Amazingly the one time the entire team made it to Kanaxai with the build. Zodiac Meteor 18:00, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

First, don't edit my comments. Secondly, I'm not angry and I have done nothing to deserve a ban. Thirdly, you want my vote removed - therefore to win this argument I suggest you keep on topic instead of going on about tank-n-spank. Now, Excluded - thank you for making a sensible, understandable and on-topic comment. If you look back, I never said it "won't work/be suitable for deep". I know it works. It's not even just PvE, it's PvE with cons - everything works! Anyway, <font color="Red">A <font color="Black">ndy 18:09, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Although anti-ench may not be as big a problem as it sounds, it takes a big hit on your statements of it being "easy" and "unfailable", which greatly reduces the vote as you're losing reasons to run this over something else.
 * If you look back, I didn't say remove both ER's for a seed monk. Keep one ER ele, but instead of faffing about making things hit for a max of 5% damage, use Life Bond to actually reduce damage of all enemies, giving the monk an easy and consistent target for seed of life, so even when Life Bond is stripped, enough will still have it and being hit to over-heal the damage done to those that :lost it.
 * 1 Look at my manly spike and spiteful spike argument, this is faster than those because it failed less. The wipes were mistakes and the people that got stuck in enemy mob were left unless they were expendable. It maybe 15-25 minutes and a good runs are awesome, but the people mess up or lagged for a second, unable to rez because one guy died in a mob while using a locked chest, it wasn't worth it. On top of that, finding people for Deep with the right builds, professions and vent for the in my own old guild/alliance took an hour and thirty minutes.
 * 2 That would work fine, but it's pretty much unneeded because it's not much of a game changer. No one died because their bond was to strong or to weak. I would place that as a optional bond if the ER is feeling lazy.
 * But is this really worth a 3.0 rating because an optional skill and speed is better than risk? Zodiac Meteor 18:26, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * You keep banging on about other builds that aren't relevant to this at all. I suggested that in response to Excludeds' comment, it is the start of a long list of reasons it is 3-3, not the only one. <font color="Red">A <font color="Black">ndy 18:33, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * How are they not relevant? They deep team builds, something to compare this one to. That sounds important to me. I'm not banging on them either, their godly fast. They suck because it's risky, when everything about a good run is relying on how skilled the players are. Badly skilled players make and break those builds. Besides 15 minute deep > 35 minute deep. Does that mean it's better? No. Zodiac Meteor 18:48, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not relevant because it is not mentioned in the vote and it is not used as a reason against the effectiveness of this build. <font color="Red">A <font color="Black">ndy 18:50, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't you only compare builds when they're being WELLd? Whatever; these builds can be used perfectly, the more character slots the more physicals and support you can have, it's much more fun playing Physway here than anywhere else. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 18:57, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

Interesting that they rated a GREAT team build that badly when comparing OTHER Deep builds (and yes, I have ran them too)I find Physway much easier, more fun and involves everyone. I just dont get what Andy is talking/disliking about this build. And for someone to COPY PASTE the same EXACT REASONING and RATING is a sign of either: Trolling, or Consipiracy. Im quite sure, alot of people/teams prefer Physway. I see it called for often in: The Deep, Urgoz, UW. Those who complain, imo, are those who dont understand it or cant run it. To each their own. TatJameson 20:52, July 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * nice trolling. Athrun Feya 20:12, July 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Takes one to know one...Deep is a sacred cow zzzzzz, we get it. 76.17.97.158 20:20, July 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Who are you Athrun? Im sorry if my opinion hurts your feelings (or Andy's for that matter).  You need a better comment than "nice trolling".  Which, is what you are indeed doing after my opinion.  Best advice would be:  Know your roll and place. Its surely not here. Kthx. TatJameson 20:52, July 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Whoru? I rated it low because it's bad. Others agreed with my vote, so they copied it. When a build gets trashed, it's because its bad. See here for more details. <font color="Red">A <font color="Black">ndy 23:01, July 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * WhoIsAndy? Ive read about your other builds, Ive ran them, so, for you to trash this build when it is far easier and better to run than your "Frenchie" way is very childish.  And, as a mod on this site, you are very, very One sided.  But thats ok.  Ignorance is something a child would have and its clear what I am dealing with here.   And for you to use the term "retard" is quite unprofessional.  I know people with Downs Syndrome.  Maybe you should THINK before you speak.  Go to The Deep, UW, quite a few other elite dungeons.  They ask for Physway quite a bit.  More than STEEL wall. Again, it was just my opinion.  And I get this from voicing it.  If you would like to PM in game, give me a name.  Would love to talk to you.  Unless of course, you have "better things to do as a mod". For example, play a power trip because you are... Im sorry, I forgot your name...  Oh yeah, Andy, thats it. Nuff said. 69.238.197.76 23:27, July 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi, Andy's not a mod. Just thought i'd clear that up <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  23:36, July 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * I like how this random IP thinks that andy is an admin. Pugs only run physway because they are too terrible to run any of the builds that are faster. No one gives a shit about formality on the internet. Life   Guardian  23:37, July 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Lol, yer funny. For a start, you'll find I'm not a "mod". I'm just a person with a lot of experience in The Deep and happen to know what works well there. If you would care to look around this page you'll find several explanations why I rated it as I did. You'll also notice me saying repeatedly that in the rating I did not compare it to "STEEL wall" type builds, instead saying that using physical damage is "perfectly acceptable and effective". Sadly, this build does not apply this very well and that is one of the many reasons for the low rating. You are welcome to PM me in game, though I'm not sure there is any good reason to. IGN: "Cheerful Alligator". I enjoyed your comment about me being "unprofessional"... as we are in fact, discussing a game. lol. <font color="Red">A <font color="Black">ndy 23:49, July 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Life Guardian, as far as "Pugs only run physway because they are too terrible to run any of the builds that are faster", where is your proof of this? Ive ran all those ways and tbh, Physway was faster and easier.  I think Andy can take care of himself without you coming in.  Andy, the comment about professional was when I made the mistake of thinking you were a mod.  The "retard" comment is (to me anyways) like using the "N" or "C" word.  If you are over 18, Im sure you can use more mature words.  You are right, it is a game. So, whats wrong with the build if it works for some and not for others.  Just like ALL builds.  I will chat with you soon in game.  Dont worry, I wont FLAME you.  Life Guardian, you make me that much more happy about signing up onto PVX. 69.238.197.76 00:16, July 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * pugs only run physway because the are too terrible to run builds that are faster :) keep trolling btw all, this shit is golden 86.30.179.100 00:23, July 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * If physway isn't fast for you, you're doing it wrong. But it's a balanced team, only has four fixed professions and the rest are completely optional. This is how GW should be played. Builds that are more effective the better a player you are.  Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 06:17, July 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * lol--Oskar 07:20, July 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * So, which builds aren't more effective for better players? <font color="Red">A <font color="Black">ndy 15:52, July 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * Old UWSC springs to mind, when it only required you to press two buttons to not die. One of many.  Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 16:22, July 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * So...pugs got 7 minute uwsc prenerf? k. Life   Guardian  22:28, July 30, 2010 (UTC)

Reset indent. Minion, you talk like physway is a build that actually requries talent to run xD You mash c->space->1->2->3 for half an hour. Mad skills.--TahiriVeila 01:10, July 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * So you're talking about the sins, yes, they're half-mindless apart from targeting the right foe. But can you ER? Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 07:26, July 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * Redbar protting with infinite energy takes tons of talent.--TahiriVeila 05:56, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well all of you are saying it wouldn't work in the deep because of all the Disenchantment. Poor reason if you're saying it's easy, right? Which is it? Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 05:59, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Lightning Reflexes > Dwarven Battle Stance
The 33% IAS and 75% blocking can be kept up 24/7, no need for Dwarven Battle Stance for the IAS. Zodiac Meteor 17:43, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * That was Drunken Master; and you don't even need Dwarven Stability either. But meh, we need to put these physical builds somewhere else- Looks messy. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 17:49, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

Deletion for the sabotage voting
This is ridiculous, build deletion because people sabotaged the voting. Can I have fix soon?
 * Badly thought out builds. (Explain? Which is bad? Why are they bad? How are they bad?)
 * Very few enemies in the deep hit enough for prot bond to be useful. (Somewhat true, but squishy casters are squishy.)
 * 3 or 4 of the builds can be replaced by one seed monk with no loss in survivability. (Which ones? How, why, what? No explanations)
 * Mass anti-ench in deep makes it generally suck (chillbanes, aspect of shadows, disenchantment spirit, feedback). (That's not a problem, established)
 * Although physicalway is a perfectly acceptable and effective way of dong the deep, this is really not the way to do it. (If it's effective then it's not the way?)
 * If people are copy+paste arguments, at least answer these unanswered questions. I hardly believe that these are real votings because they just copied what they liked. The only good argument is the protection bond one. Zodiac Meteor 18:39, July 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * Its perfectly acceptable to copy and paste other peoples votes as it does not violate PvX:Real Vetting-- Oskar 18:42, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, lets take a look at these.
 * This point covers all other statements. Most the builds were copied from another area with almost no changes, despite The Deep being very different to other areas. Just because the builds work well in other areas, does not mean they work to exactly the same effectiveness in The Deep.
 * You have 5-6 physicals. We're talking about competent players, as was suggested earlier. If they can get past 5-6 physicals to the backline then you're seriously fucking bad. lolpve.
 * Explained in section above.
 * Explained in section above.
 * Explained in section above.
 * <font color="Red">A <font color="Black">ndy 18:48, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * You're right Andy, with experienced players the enemies wont get past the forntline. But you see, we don't waste time tanking and when taking pug assassins some of the enemies usually slip through. You say just because it is effective elsewhere doesn't mean its effective in the deep. Ok, valid point. The question is how exactly do you measure effectiveness? Roarer 18:56, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * You have 5-6 physicals. We're talking about competent players, as was suggested earlier. If they can get past 5-6 physicals to the backline then you're seriously fucking bad. lolpve. This point covers all other statements. Most the builds were copied from another area with almost no changes, despite The Deep being very different to other areas. Just because the builds work well in other areas, does not mean they work to exactly the same effectiveness in The Deep.
 * 5-6 physicals to backline now equals bad? What does that even mean? Bad effectiveness? Backline PvE monsters are a danger now? Did I miss something? Also,does that mean some one should change UW Physway so it could also be used for Deep and Urgoz? That makes perfect sense, we should also call it Team: Elite Area's Physway (except FoW) Zodiac Meteor 19:02, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * He means a "steel wall" effect. So foes can't get to your backline without taking out frontline first. Hmm, I have a suggestion; let's remove all the area-specific Physway paged and reintroduce General Physway. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 19:10, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Do it man; we can keep the area specifics on our own forums.Roarer 19:14, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Meteor, if you don't understand something read it again. I didn't say that was bad, I said that if enough enemies to cause a problem run past 6 physicals to attack the backline, then  you are fucking bad . I said that you can't copy a build from area to area without changes - just have slightly changed builds for each area and stop being fucking retarded. <font color="Red">A <font color="Black">ndy 00:18, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

Votes are Violating Real Vetting

 * A vote must be based on facts. Votes that are entirely based on a false premise, flagrantly misrepresent a build's ability or demonstrate a minimal understanding of in-game mechanics are considered invalid.


 * Badly thought out builds. (Not true)
 * Very few enemies in the deep hit enough for prot bond to be useful. (misrepresenting the build's ability)
 * 3 or 4 of the builds can be replaced by one seed monk with no loss in survivability. (false premise)
 * Mass anti-ench in deep makes it generally suck (chillbanes, aspect of shadows, disenchantment spirit, feedback). (Not true)
 * Although physway is a perfectly acceptable and effective way of dong the deep, this is really not the way to do it. (false premise)


 * A build that works, but is clearly inferior to another build, should get a lower rating than this other build. However, the rating should still be higher than for a build that doesn't work at all. Only builds that serve the same purpose may be compared in that way.

Spitefulway is the fastest, but requires good knowledge of The Deep and good coordination. Physway is safer and PuG friendly, but is much slower in comparison.
 * Spitefulway vs. Physway (manlyway doesn't compare to these two)

Also, half the people that voted on Spitefulway were half the people that voted bad scores on physway. I'm thinking it's sabotage because their super fast build must be the only #1. The reason why this should be getting bad votes is because it's comparison, not because of builds. Zodiac Meteor 19:28, July 24, 2010 (UTC) It's clear as day that this is sabotage, Excludeds vote has been reduced to 0.
 * Are you sure you've done enough sections on this? Click the link on the sidebar saying 'Admin Noticeboard' and ask them to look at the votes you disagree with. Don't bore them with your terribad reasoning, just ask them to look and see what they say. Also, it's a build. Calm it. -- Short 19:40, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * I put it on there, just want to make sure the people here understands that. How do you not see this is sabotage, is a rating change to 0 and replaced comment with something stupid normal? Terribad reasons my ass, it's BS arguments. I might as well say that Deep Spitefulway is to risky because it requires perfect coordination and give it a 2. The only person that gave it a thought-out rating without playing the build is Tyraelxy. I'm pissed at the sabotage, I couldn't care much for the build now anyways. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zodiac meteor (talk &bull; contribs).
 * Oh Dear God. Just post on the Admin Noticeboard the votes you think are wrong and see if they get taken down. I don't give a shit about supposed sabotages, stop getting so pissy about a build. If the votes don't get taken down, you're probably wrong. PvXWiki is a community project, you don't decide what builds are good or not. Oh, and please remember to sign.-- Short 19:58, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Phenax cleared the 0-0 vote, I added my vote, it is good now. Don't yell! Shadow Form Slayer 21:46, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * I thought the deep took ~20 minutes for a decent team. why did two guys give it 5-5 when it takes ~40 minutes?-- Relyk  talk  01:56, July 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Because it's more fun this way and allows for a larger variety of builds. It's a truly balanced team, unlike the others proposed.  Aina Galamarth 02:00, July 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * I thought PvX only stored the best and most optimal builds or did we change that? [[Image:Zyke-Sig.png]] 02:13, July 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are two generally accepted categories: balanced and the SC-type teams. This has major advantages over the speedclear type stuff (and viceversa), which allow them to coexist.Aina Galamarth 02:16, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

Cut the run down to 33 minutes average. It can be 25 if performed flawlessly.  Minion  02:18, July 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Half the team ended up dying, twice and we still manage 33 minutes, minion are you going to post your vote now that it's been removed? Also, next time, we should run through Mind Wreck room and see how that goes. Last time we tried a necro was wielding a staff. Zodiac Meteor 02:58, July 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * What a bull-shit. This is 1. A community project, so blame the community, and you belong there I pressume. 2. It is ~30 minutes, which is very decent. 3. It is diverse and should be worthwile looking at, the other are fixed builds. 4. THIS IS PUG-FRIENDLY, so no racism for who can do it or not. Shadow Form Slayer 08:24, July 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Shadow, Zodiac's comment was positive. Aina Galamarth 08:31, July 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * I was not commenting on Zodiac's comment. Look at the double dots. They point on which one I comment. If you look good, I was commenting on Relyk's talk. Shadow Form Slayer 08:34, July 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * none of those are reasons to 5-5 a build unfortunately. the "community project" consists a few contributors trying to boost a build to great when the rest of the community is against it. you can't say runs are ~30 minutes consistently and still say its pug-friendly, ignoring the fact that ~30 minutes isn't considered decent. You rate a build on it's effectiveness, not circumstantial reasoning like ease of forming a group.-- Relyk  talk  08:56, July 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't understand how you can make such unsubstantiated allegations. I could say the same about you and your opposition to this build!Aina Galamarth 09:08, July 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * The community project is to share your ideas with the community, the community approves it or not. Why can't you say you can ~30 with pug-friendly, what I read here is: Pugs are too bad in this to run this build under 30 minutes. That is not true, it means the build is that good that it ALLOWS pugs to run it even under 30 minutes. In that way it is very effective, since no group likes pugs, trust me. It is effectively in a well-made time. It is so diverse, that almost any profession is allowed to enter the run to get their kanaxai killing trophy. It is not that this is the fastest build ever made, it is a relaxing and funnier way to do, without needing to co-operate and co-ordinate much Shadow Form Slayer 09:11, July 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * As so expertly noted by the good man Shadow Form Slayer in his truly scintillating comments, co-operation and co-ordination are what are wrong with Guildwars. A good build is a carefully machined tool; it is designed to allow hated enemies to complete difficult content while attempting to sabotage each other and watch the daily show instead of actually healing (not that I would ever do such a thing, only Minion does this because he's a noob who is off making curry).  Considering this, the SC builds simply can't compete.Aina Galamarth 09:16, July 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Curry>Guildwars Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 13:26, July 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Of course that is what I meant. A little comment on you Aina, do not spread the word of noob as counterswear, since it is ridiculous. Neither one of Guild Wars is a professional, everyone can get beaten. Everyone also knows a bit (except the younglings, they are in study-process). But anything else you said is totally true. You can't judge on which one is right or not, based on times. More factors must include a vetting process. Look at the old R/A Shattering Assaultway. This was a pug-friendly team build to get hero points in HA. Today RTL is one of them, or SF. It does not mean that co-ordinated people can't use them. Of course, they can use it and use it better, but pugs can use it and win points by spamming lame in the first official round. So, you are not totally right Relyk <font color="Blue">Shadow Form Slayer  [[Image:Shadow_Form~_Slayer.jpg|20px]] 09:32, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

Improvements to this setup.
I open this up to everyone. I want to see discussions on how to improve a PHYSWAY setup. When posting improvements realise that this is a playstyle, and we choose to adapt this style to every area in the game. So I would like to keep improvements relevant to a Physway method. Not changing into a Manlyspike or Spitefulspike. I know you 'Deep experts' like to run the oldschool type methods that have been going since 2006, but I challenge you to think outside your box, and help us improve this build.Roarer 21:11, July 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Any idea for a useful alternative cover hex to Vocal Minority?--Chieftain Alex 21:14, July 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * No need; it's either VM or Rigor Mortis for Displacement, isn't it? If what you want is speed, then the main thing to think about is slotting Recall on one/all of the sins to skip another one or two rooms and speed up the Gate opening process.  Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 21:22, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

Target Audience
Question: Who is this build for?
 * Very few people PUG deep, the reason is not because there isn't an easy build out there for it, people don't PUG deep because it isn't worth it, they would get far more money out of DoA, FoW or UW, all of which are more puggable than deep. The few people who do want to do deep in a PUG are never enough to form a full team of 12, so they usually end up going 3 people with heroes.
 * Speed-clear guilds and guilds that decide that they want to do a lot of the deep, will use Spiteful spike, because it is quicker and more challenging.
 * So, in my opinion the only people who will get any mileage out of this build are casual guilds who just do deep "every so often" as a bit of fun and I'm not even sure this is right for them because in a casual guild, it is unlikely that there will be people with the right professions.
 * Another factor: does doing the deep casually really need a team build? If a casual guild wants to go and do deep for fun, then with cons, they can take pretty much whatever they want and they should be able to get through it in <1hr, with practice, that becomes <30mins. The deep is an easy enough area that an organised team build is not necessary to do it casually, and if you want to do it seriously, then there are builds on pvx that can do it in <15mins reliably with a little practice.
 * There may well be a small group of players who will benefit from this build being up on pvx, but pvx isn't there to provide builds for small groups of players, it is there to give the most effective builds and the builds that pug groups use, this build is neither of those things. <font color="Blue">Paranon 19:32, July 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * ^whatever the fuck he said-- O sk  ar  18:46, July 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Further to this point, the deep is actually one of the more easy elite areas. Take anything with cons and a few copies of Spiteful Spirit and Seed of Life and you're pretty much sorted. Athrun Feya 01:51, July 28, 2010 (UTC)

"If a build is voted 3.78 its probably pretty shitty anyway" , well, its not 3.78 but its damn close.--Oskar 13:13, August 2, 2010 (UTC)