Archive talk:Team - PvE Smiteway/Archive 2

Current Build Discussion Archive 1

Continue
The discussion here. ~ Big    sysop  06:52, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Fixed up the divine favor attributes. There is no reason for it to stay at 9+1, you can max 2 attribute lines.  Also added smiter's boon and Reversal of damage to the second monk as options. - DarkSpirit 15:33, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Snare
Now that we have removed the MM, we should have a snare. - DarkSpirit 06:56, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It doesn't have to be mainbar. We just need to suggest options for the 2-3 open slots on each bar. And for the love of God, remove the player bar. [[Image:KJ needed a new sig....sig.png]] 06:59, 20 March 2009
 * I agree, at least add snare skills as options, and thanks for removing the lol player bar. - DarkSpirit 07:04, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Now the charr blademasters get to run up and chopchop your poor monks as they pathetically try to heal themselves with their dumb ai--Relyk 07:17, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * How's that? It's got support options, prot options, and snaring options. [[Image:KJ needed a new sig....sig.png]] 07:23, 20 March 2009
 * Was the AI updated to run from ROJ if only RoJ is the only AoE then?-- Ikimono Needs more "good" Paragon [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png|24px]] 09:03, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks nice. Why do you want to remove MM though? Wall is good when you face aoe, strong melee ect. lack of one RoJ is made up by PutridBile and DeathNova.--Anonimous. D: 09:16, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The support/prot/snaring options wont do much to keep charrs from chopchopping support healers. I find 3 rojs pretty bad cause heros get pretty bad at aiming at different foes, especially ones that are moving. needs minion wall with death nukes so heros actually make their ion cannons count--Relyk 09:30, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Heroes generally follow your target so you can fix/cause their targetting issues, but I cant disagree tha when they RoJ fleeing casters it becomes very annoying. Charrs in eotn for instance is one of examples where MM would do good, with only delights s mean of fighting area damage they wont stand long. --Anonimous. D: 09:33, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * ^charr run way too fking much. RoJ rapes most of the time though. Its still nice to have an mm since the monks start casting roj at aggro and the melee may still be moving by the time they cast, minions catch the aggro.--Relyk 09:41, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Speaking of Charr it is very funny to watch their archers lock on your minions. --Anonimous. D: 09:42, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Even when playing as a tank the best thing to do is to simply ignore the charr that is running away and switch target to the ones that are pounding your casters. You would find that sometimes they run back towards you without having you to chase them.  I dont mind a MM as an option, to replace one of the monks if people find it useful so in places where MMs fail, we can still use 3 monks. - DarkSpirit 15:37, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The monks dont stop casting roj when you switch enemies--Relyk 15:42, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Just make 3 builds on the same page. 3 monks, 2 monks+MM, and 2 monks+that snare ele I use.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 15:50, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Call the targets. - DarkSpirit 15:53, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * LCAlling targets doesn't make them stop casting roj and switching--Relyk 01:53, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * If your heroes are set to guard (they should be), it is likely because of the 2s cast of RoJ and they are running towards the fleeing target since they have already started casting it. Normally if they are set to "guard" they will only attack if the party is attacked or if the enemy the player is targeting is in the aggro range.  So chasing a fleeing enemy is not a common situation, if you click on another skill they would cancel the activation of RoJ. - DarkSpirit 13:02, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Snare vs. proper aggro management
Disclaimer: I only bother running this on my assa, so I can't really comment on how this plays for casters.
 * If you play melee, there is ZERO need for snares since most of the mob should be on you anyway. I feel the same way about snares as I do about MM, which is they both serve the same purpose of slowing down the mob, but are ultimately unnecessary.  I took out the MM because it is not needed and is sub-par when you bother to do things properly.
 * If anything, the snare should go on the player balling up the aggro. --Zaney 01:51, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Unless you take the trouble of positioning your heroes far back, do aggro management, then unflag your heroes each time, many of the monsters would overflow to your casters with weaker armor. A snare is still useful for aggro management, besides not everyone would be playing a tank when using this build.  Snare can be cast from range, so you dont need the tank to bring a snare every time. - DarkSpirit 13:08, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

"^charr run way too fking much. RoJ rapes most of the time though. Its still nice to have an mm since the monks start casting roj at aggro and the melee may still be moving by the time they cast, minions catch the aggro.--Relyk 09:41, 20 March 2009 (UTC) "
 * ^This is an example of doing it wrong and a good illustrative example of why you don't need snares or MM. First of all, you are in before your heroes, the melee charr should be on you, (not your heroes).  Run up to the casters, so that they are all in a nice ball.  Your heroes should have just cast RoJ on everything and everything should die.  If you can't get the timing down, just manual RoJ. --Zaney 01:56, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Call it what you want, but when you run into the middle of a mob, the melee runs right past you. Just got through SoO and it happened everytime.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 01:59, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The run away from you too, go play gw--Relyk 02:43, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Life Guardian, the reason melee rushes your backline is because of improper flagging and a lack of understanding of aggro control. Most of the time it doesn't even matter.  When it does matter, the melee only rushes your backline when it's in their range.  Preprot and flag your heroes back for a bit.  That gives you more than enough time to ion cannon.  Even if the melee breaks aggro at that point, the casters should be dead.
 * Also (relyk), please stop assuming someone has not found a better way to play than you. I am telling you that you do not need a snare or a MM and that you can ball up the melee AND casters all at once.  I have done it many times.  (In fact, cryway is the exact same concept).  I know it strikes at your pride to admit "ur doing it rong," but just look at things objectively for a bit.  Thank you. -Zaney
 * They dont ball up in eotn, that's as objective as i can get, sorry--Relyk 06:57, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * And if you see my style of play, preprotting and rounding aggro is a nono, cause i play a brave warrior--Relyk 07:02, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * You realize, charr are basically infamous for balling up? Do I really need screen shots to convince you?  Also, even if it were true (it's not) EotN != entire GW.  Also, your most objective is pretty NOT objective considering you're basing your statements on your experience alone.  I have basically described outright how to ball up charr.  The only reason you don't believe me is because it hurts your pride.  For this reason, I'm not going to try harder to convince you when it's obvious I can't even change your mind even if I came over to your house with my laptop and showed you how to play.  --72.253.158.192 08:34, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * stupid anons are stupid at pve obviously--Relyk 10:56, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * You dont need direct snare that is true, WaF and Grasping Earth are different story they can be used effectively on very low spec and provide extra defensive measure aside from acting like snare. Very useful against melee enemies which attack you casters, because caster heroes have tendncy to flee from melee monster and melee monsters have tendency to go into steel lock on their target and follow them it can be very tricky and irritating to catch them into RoJ properly. --Anonimous. D: 12:31, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * To be fair, not everyone can or should have to go make a tank, go through proper aggro management etc. for each mob. Look at how easy it is to use sabway or discordway.  If this build becomes too difficult to use for the general PvE public its ratings would start to suffer, even though I know what Zaney is talking about.  As long as we want to continue to support casters and preserve high universality rating for this build, we should consider a snare.  Can we please keep the build as simple to use as possible and stop complicating it for the general PvE. - DarkSpirit 13:24, 21 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I always just run into a group, cast RoJs on targets I feel should die quickly, and proceed casting WaM, me being an Ele. You dont need a tank, nor do you need proper aggro management. All you need is a brain. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  13:33, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Ice Spikes
You better tell me it was joke. Absolutely useless for snare because maximum you are going to get from it on non-primary is 5 seconds for 2 second cast time and 15 energy, not worth it! --Anonimous. D: 12:23, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I couldn't think of anything worth putting. I agree with your points about needing a MM, but that's why I still use N/Mo's. [[Image:KJ needed a new sig....sig.png]] 16:27, 21 March 2009

HM Shards of Orr
Has anyone tried this out in HM Shards of Orr yet? I came up with this skill combination that works quite well for me. My heroes do not have proper runes or equipment yet. http://www.xfire.com/video/91dd9/ - DarkSpirit 22:22, 21 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I went through SoO HM with a Sigsmite wammo, 6 RoJ Smiters and some prot/heal hybrid with Glimmer. Yeah, Smite works. And SoO is extremely overrated. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  22:26, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Uh..if you need to use 6 RoJ Smiters then you are not helping to improve this build, other than bragging. This is a 3-heroes build so you have to do it with heroes and henchies as a proof of concept.  Why do you think I am not using my second account? - DarkSpirit 22:30, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Eh, I tried HM and got anally raped. Did NM easy but fendi was still a bitch.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 22:50, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It wasn't that bad when I tried it with H/H. - DarkSpirit 06:05, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

MM
Are we adding MM or not? If yes: [build prof=n/mo death=12+1+3 soul=8+1 Prot=9 heal=5][aura of the lich@17][animate bone horror@17][death nova@17][putrid bile@17][dwayna's sorrow][protective spirit][aegis][signet of lost souls][/build] best bar to fulfil wall creating job. No high energy spammy minion spells mean it ideal for large ammount of corpses you end up with while using RoJ, high level minions are strong minion wall and this can do protection and party heal job like prot RoJ does now. Discuss. --Anonimous. D: 16:26, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I dont think a MM should be in a main build because of the reasons stated above. If it is there, it should only be a suggested variant.  Also you already have bone horrors from Aotl, so you can bring animate bone minions instead. - DarkSpirit 21:58, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
 * the first bit of ur comment was fine, but the rest was lolworthy. bone minions are higher level? i.e. better at being meat shield? &mdash; LukeJohnson  [[Image:LJ_BS_Sig.jpg|19px]] 22:06, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
 * ^The MM should be mainbar, if someone wants to bring another roj monk because they can snare/wall/keep enemies in roj, then they can.--Relyk 00:25, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Where did I say bone minions are higher level? You dont need 2 skills to make the same minion.  Bone minions are easier to bomb with.  And you dont need a MM most of the time if you already have a snare. - DarkSpirit 00:27, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Making minions more than every 45 seconds is useful when your blowing them up with death nova--Relyk 00:33, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Is death nova damage higher or RoJ higher? There is a cost to replace a RoJ monk with a MM and a tank who aggros carefully does not need a MM.  A MM is not necessary for this build, but only as a variant.  Besides, shouldn't have to rely on minion AI to hold good aggro. - DarkSpirit 00:37, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Ill say it again. 3(or 2) team builds on this page with the different variants.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 00:44, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Go head, if it will stop the whining. BAnd mm is necessary for the build because its better than bringing an ele with snares and the build is suppose work with any build--Relyk 00:48, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Dark you havent read my comment for MM build clearly enough. I go for higher level minions because my main goal is creating strong minion wall to soak damage, I believe higher level minions do this job better. --Anonimous. D: 21:38, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * My point is Aotl already gives you bone horrors. If you really want to bring animate bone horrors then why not bring Jagged Bones as the elite, so you can grant them a second life, if you want tougher minions? - DarkSpirit 05:50, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Because jagged bones is bad. You can only maintain it on 2 minions tops. AotL has a 45 seconds recharge, so basically you are useless while waiting for it to recharge. 220.255.7.209 05:58, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Maintaining a max of 2 Jagged Bones enchantment at any one time doesn't imply that JB would only be able to give you 2 Jagged Horrors over time. Aotl is not much better since heroes would cast this whenever possible rather than waiting for the max number of corpses to be around. - DarkSpirit 06:43, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * No heroes don't. they use it when there are corpses,k and as this should blow up lots of monsters at once... it should be good &mdash; LukeJohnson  [[Image:LJ_BS_Sig.jpg|19px]] 17:23, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Who cares that AotL already yields Bone Horrors? It's not like Anim Bone Horror won't work now. Other than that; MMs are bad for RoJway; you don't need em at all. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  10:01, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * LJ, technically Dark is right. Heroes use AotL on recharge unless you micro it. If there happen to be corpses around, then congrats. But the fact that they spam it doesn't make it a bad choice. [[Image:KJ needed a new sig....sig.png]] 17:28, 24 March 2009
 * Heroes use AotL on recharge ONLY if there are corpses around/during battle. Dark, please shut up if you don't even know how heroes use AotL. Maintaining a max of 2 JB enchantments on 2 minions at any time basically means at any time the enchantment only produces 2 jagged horrors. Learn to math, suck and fail less. Really hate mentally incapable people spouting rubbish misleading others.220.255.7.223 17:36, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually IP(Cedave?), heroes do spam it on recharge. From my experience, at least, that is what they seem to do even with no corpses present. Also, there are notes on both wikia and wiki confirming this. [[Image:KJ needed a new sig....sig.png]] 17:44, 24 March 2009
 * But again, that doesn't make it a bad choice. Most of the time they'll get at least 2 minions out of it, which seems worth it to me. [[Image:KJ needed a new sig....sig.png]] 17:45, 24 March 2009
 * Walk into a map with a AotL hero, and watch them NOT cast AotL until they go into battle. That should be sufficient evidence they only use it on recharge in battle/when there are corpses present.220.255.7.229 17:49, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Once the hero has minions (after the first battle), they spam it on recharge. I run AotL a lot on my heroes, trust me. Check wiki, wikia, guru, or pretty much any other site. They just do. But again, that doesn't mean it's a bad choice. [[Image:KJ needed a new sig....sig.png]] 17:55, 24 March 2009
 * I run AotL with RoJ, so I always pay attention to my heroes as I need that minion wall to prevent foes running out of my RoJs. They don't use AotL except in battle and when there are corpses around; proven when I afked and came back with no more minions. Just because big shots think it works that way doesn't necessarily mean it's right, and it sounds as if you are just blindly quoting them without any actual experience.220.255.7.226 18:02, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm blindly quoting w/o experience? I just said that I run AotL MM heroes a lot. How is that not experience? I was only using the notes from those sites to back me up. I'm starting to think you just don't want to be wrong. [[Image:KJ needed a new sig....sig.png]] 18:04, 24 March 2009
 * Currently, master of whispers has 3 minions after battle and he isn't using AotL on recharge. Strange, it must be a bug because according to 2 wikis and a fansite, and you they use it on recharge after battle /sarcasm.220.255.7.224 18:10, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 10 minutes after the first battle and master of whispers still has 3 minions omg what a game-breaking discovery!220.255.7.221 18:19, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * BTW, thanks for lying, nearly got me there by fabricating supporting evidence. According to GWW AND GuildWiki, they state that Heroes do not use this skill properly. They will not cast it whenever possible., which clearly supports my points.220.255.7.221 18:28, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Micro it --Oj ▲ mo  19:58, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * tl;dr less or don't post at all.220.255.7.141 23:46, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Huh....weird. You're right, they don't spam it out of battle, but when I set my Livia (who's my MM) to attack she spams it constantly in battle even after when there are no corpses left. When set on guard, she doesn't use it nearly enough, even when there are corpses available. Eh, might just add a note about microing it in the build. [[Image:KJ needed a new sig....sig.png]] 16:28, 25 March 2009
 * They dont use Aotl properly. They dont cast it when not in battle but when the very first battle starts, they always cast it immediately to get 1 lousy minion instead of waiting awhile for the first corpse to appear so you have to wait 45s into battle for it to recharge even if corpses have already appeared by then or the battle is over.  During battle, if you are lucky, they cast it when corpses are available, otherwise you get 1 new bone horror from your slow recharging elite skill yay. - DarkSpirit 03:23, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Wasn't that what I said? Thanks for repeating after me.220.255.7.149 03:40, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * So you agree with me then? Lets replace Aotl with JB! :) - DarkSpirit 03:42, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

How about just add a note to disable AotL and use it when there are a few corpses, is it not that simple :/ Frosty  the Admin 10:28, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Why can't we keep it simple? Look at Sabway or Discordway, people praise them for being usable even when afk.  Depending on what build they use on their character, some of them already have their hands full casting SY upon recharge, now they have to look out for Aotl?  I dont mind putting Aotl as a variant for micro, but despite these "self-proclaimed" pve experts who like to act cool by flaming everyone and everywhere, most pve players are "lazy" when pursuing set hero builds. - DarkSpirit 15:54, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, the people who actually know pve haven't been commenting on aotl vs JB. It's just been KJ and random anon.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 16:01, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * And random anon guy has been pouring flames all over this discussion, if this continues pretty soon the all the f-words are going to come up and this discussion will be ruined. If you want to micro Aotl someone would have to spend the time to explain how to do it to the general pve people. - DarkSpirit 16:06, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi DarkSpirit, if you keep removing comments against policy I will just keep adding it back, I've got lots of time.220.255.7.165 16:26, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Look, I wont remove your comments if you keep this civil. If you want to suggest micro-ing then suggest it without insults or flaming.  If you dont care about being open and respectful to others here then dont expect others to be respectful to you either.  If I start flaming back then this will turn to a horrible flame war, but that's your intention anyway. - DarkSpirit 16:31, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * You know nothing of policy IP, we can remove malicious comments all we want. --Anonimous. D: 18:06, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Erm actually comments cannot be removed on talkpages unless the page is archived.--[[Image:Paralyzing GazeLiger414.jpg|19px]] <font color="SaddleBrown">Liger414 <font color="Darkgoldenrod">talk  19:01, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Those malicious comments you speak of is the truth. Reverting lalalala 220.255.7.231 21:33, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually we just ban the person and archive a few seconds later because the talk page has become a trolling flame for 5-6 sections-- 00:16, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow....someone should archive this page already so we can get back on topic. Then again....the IP might not flame it anymore......and that shit's funny.....idk. [[Image:KJ needed a new sig....sig.png]] <font face="Arial" color="gray">00:30, 27 March 2009
 * Using the royal 'we', eh, Relyk? --71.229 00:30, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Your excluded from joining in on my pompous assumptive comments--Relyk 00:42, 27 March 2009 (UTC)