Build talk:D/A Dagger Spam

My First Build
Rate, rate, rate! :-D --GhostwheelX 10:21, 16 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Plz, before posting, use the button Show Preview to limit edits and check "This is a minor edit" if you make minor edits... --Sewa 12:10, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Zealous Renewal
Renewal isnt needed with Vow. Youre getting free energy attacks an gaining an extra 5 energy off the dual attack. --Jimmyjam 13:33, 16 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Probably, but at the same time you need to pay for the enchantments, and you're not going to do that too easily with just +1 energy regen (-3 from zealous renewal). --GhostwheelX 13:34, 16 March 2011 (UTC)


 * You do know vow only costs 3 energy every 20 sec. which means you got space left for 1 more 5e derv enchant. You could also just camp zealous if running low. Falrach 13:37, 16 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Aight, added it as an optional. --GhostwheelX 13:40, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Optionals
This Build needs moar Lyssas Haste and Zealous Daggers.--Ra 13:48, 16 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Out of curiosity, why Lyssa's Haste? Zealous Vow recharges just fine, and as Falrach said above, you can simply auto-attack a few times without using your attack skills to regain virtually all your energy. --GhostwheelX 13:52, 16 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The faster recharge of enchantments can be neglected. The immediate, unconditional AoE-Interrupt make that skill attractive. And the zealous mod is just for helping a bit out with the e-management if you are gonna taking some energy-heavy skills. I do know that the zealous daggers are kinda supferfluous, but it's just for spamming every skill through without wating few secs for fueling your blue bar.--Ra 13:59, 16 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Eh, with a 15-second recharge it just feels kinda... random, y'know? Thanks though, I'll keep the skill in mind :-) --GhostwheelX 14:06, 16 March 2011 (UTC)


 * edit: Lyssa's Haste is quite a reliable skill and 15 secs dont hurt it that much. And Whirling Charge is just for a little additional AoE-Damage which can be enhanced by Honor and the Aura of Holy Might. But I still kicked out all of the defensive optionals cuz they aren't really necessary.--Ra 20:00, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Changes
I changed the build a bit: 87.105.213.226 21:38, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Respeced attributes (4 ene per hit is really enough)
 * Added Banishing Strike (why noone thought of 50 armor ignoring damage earlier?)
 * Changed Heart of Fury for optional and added different IAS skills in optionals.

Whirling Charge
Before we start an edit-wars I'd like to hear, why people keep on removing Pious Fury and Whirling Charge. Pious Fury is more or less just for removing Rendig Aura at the beginning or at the mid of the battle. And Whirling Charge is just for nice AoE. So ... why do you (e.g. GhostwheelX) think, that these skills are rubbish?

p.s. Pls never set Mysticism anymore higher than 9 cuz higher Mysticism doesn't bring any benefit. You should think of beefing up Wind Prayers to improve the Optionals and the awesomeness of the build.--Ra 11:36, 17 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Pious Fury - in the core build there's no enchantment that's viable to easily and quickly strip. The only thing that's there to strip is what's keeping your energy decent. It might be wise to note that you should take PF if you also bring Rending Aura.
 * The problem with Whirling Charge is that it takes energy to upkeep that you don't constantly have, and its damage is rather poor, dealing damage that most enemies in HM would barely be affected by and not lasting long enough to matter much as an IMS without serious energy degen overall.
 * On another note, why don't you like Banishing Strike? I often find when running the build that there's enough time to squeeze in Banishing Strike during the time your attack chain recharges--wouldn't it be worthwhile to have some armor-ignoring damage in there, rather than just attacking for 10 damage or so? --GhostwheelX 12:59, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Dagger Mod
Does a vamp dagger actually even do much in this case? Trying this build out, enemies die in 3-5 seconds or so in HM with a full party at your back. Doesn't feel as though the +3 damage makes that big of a difference, and the health degen often makes enemies all pile on you at once, even if there's another meleer in the party. Thus, would scrapping the vamp suggestion be a good idea and just tell people to stick with zealous mods? Armor doesn't matter too much for this build anyway since all the damage comes from the attack skills, making sundering/icy/ebon/etc worthless as well. Only other idea is Furious if people take any skills that work off of a decent amount of adrenaline. --GhostwheelX 15:57, 17 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I havent tried the build but what you just said is exactly why you DO want the vamp mod. If stuff is piling on you and ignoring other members of your party, thats great because pressure is taken off healers trying to keep multiple members alive, and it helps with bunching stuff to get death blossoms full effect. Also the 3hp drain per attack may not be huge, but youre pumping out hits like a mo fo. It adds a little healing when in battle is all. To me it sounds like you would ONLY want vampiric daggers for battle, if they cause this behavious like you said. --Jimmyjam 14:39, 20 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I have to agree with you there, Jimmy... it takes pressure off of the healers and getting the mobs to bunch = more AoE and less time running from target to target (which wastes a lot of time when fighting large mobs). ive never used vamp mods on anything (besides barrage a few times) but if it causes things like what ghostwheel said to happen then it kind of explains itself when you think about it I Luv Cheetos 20:26, 24 March 2011 (UTC)


 * While this sounds good in theory... in practice monsters in HM can hit for around 150 damage with direct damage spells in HM, and maybe 2/8 monsters are meleers in many groups. So that means that you're getting hit by maybe 3 monsters for their high-damage starter spells and are about to get mobbed by only 2 physical attackers who you can actually take advantage of. The sudden burst of damage is very hard for many monks to overcome, especially when you're dead in less than a second as the damage piles up, since all the monsters aggro together, getting a player killed quickly. So I'm still pretty unconvinced that a vamp dagger would be best--any other suggestions? --GhostwheelX 12:25, 25 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Protective Spirit/Shelter and other prots should just about always be present in your team in HM (whether heroes or players), especially if you're in an area where spikes like that could occur. -- Toraen TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png|link=User:Toraen]] 14:40, 25 March 2011 (UTC)


 * That's true in theory, but when PUGing the daily ZM with a group running UA and HB, I often find them lacking in PS. I'd rather not have that problem in the first place than have to demand actual "thinking" from players who won't listen anyway :-P --GhostwheelX 20:03, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
 * This is pretty much exactly why I don't do PuGs very often. Can't convince anyone to take critical skills. Anyway, a vampiric weapon is good to have, at least when using heroes or guild groups who can coordinate. There's no reason to not list it. -- Toraen TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png|link=User:Toraen]] 00:22, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
 * As Toraen said, if you dont haev some form of prot in HM then youre doing it wrong. As for HM PUGs, you have space on the bar to add some sort of extra survivability anyway, Eternal Aura + Faithful intervention will keep you alive and on the frontline quite well tbh. Or if youre playing a drunk variant, take Fell no Pain for easily maintanable regen and hp. --Jimmyjam 21:00, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

The reason you use a vamp mod is because it's the best mod for doing more damage... Sundering is pointless on daggers because of their useless damage, elemental mods... zealous is an option on some daggers builds but obviously not this. Basically put, vamp is the best mod for increasing your damage, even if it may only seem like an additional 3 damage per attack, that's better than no additional damage per attack. Frostels 21:14, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Heroes?
Howcome this is tagged as a hero build? Heroes do not seem to use even this simple dagger chain well at all imo50.46.98.20 08:38, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 96.60.164.126 (talk &bull; contribs).
 * because someone added the tag-- Relyk  talk  00:23, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Heroes don't spam chains any well at all so..

How come this build is listed as "Great"
How does this even begin to compare to an assassin with same armor, 4 levels higher attributes and perfect energy management even without using elite? It's just another JDF spammer and nothing impressive at that, you can already use the skills on cooldown with an assassin so this is just a subpar JDF spammer if anything.
 * When you tell me how to load up a sin bar on my derv, I'll gladly trash this thing. Until then, gtfo. -- Jai . -  05:28, April 20 2011 (UTC)
 * Because a general PvE build for one profession is not compared to builds for other professions; if we did, there'd be no ranger builds stored here, and the only elementalist build would be the ER prot. Likewise, the only para build would be the imbagon.  For heroes, that's another matter. AegisDok 05:31, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
 * This is worse than almost any scythe build imo. Sjan [[File:Rsz 160px-dervish-tango-icon-200.png]] 10:50, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
 * not worse when you deal 160+ DPS a second with SoH. saying dagger spam sucks is jsut like saying discord is worse because it doesnt have aoe. i can kill any mobs while vanq'ing within 3 seconds, such as any high-priority target like a monk, mesmer, necro, rit, etc. --The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bluetapeboy (talk) at 00:12, 30 August 2011 (UTC).

Jai, u can load sin bars in ur derv, what u cant is load sin atts in ur derv... Geist tha burdill 10:54, 24 August 2011 (UTC) enormous
 * Attributes are part of a build... runes are part of a build... hell, the profession is really the main part of a build. So I don't really know where you're going with this one. -- Jai . -  12:42, August 30 2011 (UTC)


 * As always, u fail to see some well intended irony in what i say: a build is exactly what u said, the result of skills + equip + atts + plus etc., however, when u talk "bar", i assume u mean the 8 skills inside the little squares that usually we place at the bottom of the screen, hence, u can load a sin bar, but u cant load sin atts, coz those are exclusive to sins...  Geist tha burdill  Enormous 17:44, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
 * enormous was trolling Jai, I don't think he could be any more blatant about it.-- Relyk 23:10, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Jai eats troll bait too much. Roland 02:19, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
 * If I had flamed the shit out of him, then you might have a point, but I was simply pointing out that he was wrong (which, by any account, he was :/). -- Jai . -  03:07, August 31 2011 (UTC)
 * No, the fact that you responded to enormous with a serious response means you ate his bait. Roland 04:47, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Im tired of seing my posts taken into opposite directions to where they were intended... i wasnt baiting anyone, i just referred to the conversation between jai and that guy that talks about "sins having 4 higher atts to explore, acess to critical strikes (thus, better ene management without elite)", etc. etc.; when i see "bar", i read "the 8 skills" u use ingame, not the BUILD... and just for MY information, how the hell im wrong? my post correlates to ur reply to the above mentioned guy, jai, u cant have 16 in sin atts, u cant have points assigned to crit strikes, but u can load any sin skill u want in ur bar... i hope this is not taken with a grain of salt like it was before, ppl have to stop seeing the devil averytime i post, i may troll a bit, but its just retarded mockery with no hidden intentions, i try a LOT not to put stuff that may be misinterpretaded(?) as a PA, or offend anyone (wich, sadly, cant be said about many ppl here...), also in this last few months, ive steered away from personal attacks, ive never ever used that ban evading shit i was doing a year ago with the admins, plus, i told phen and toraen that i would tone down my shit and not engage into personal wars again... in order to have this page to fill some time at work, i had to concede in a few things, otherwise, its ban hammer again... some humurous comments i make are literally taken out of context for some surreal reason i cannot fathom... i sincerely expect that i made myself clear this time... stop, plz.  Geist tha burdill  Enormous 08:46, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I like you trolling people. It's rather humurous when you suck people in providing me alot of entertainment reading flame wars.Roland 08:57, 31 August 2011 (UTC)


 * My trolls are basically attempts at being humurous about some builds, sentences, watever, obviously i may fail a lot at comedy, but my point is that they are not "ill intended", its just "small talk", nothing else... some ppl, like jai, appear to think that im conveying some sort of "enmity" (how the hell u spell this??) towards the ppl i troll, wich is far from the truth... they must learn to "read trough the bullshit" and post clever responses to my trolling, not react like an offended madonna as if i just posted something about their mothers... a good example of this is vincent evan in the caster/daggers talk, he responded cleverly, and didnt feel offended at all with me...  Geist tha burdill  Enormous 10:02, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah enmity is spelled right, if you meant hostility. Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 10:09, 31 August 2011 (UTC)


 * yes, i meant hostility... Thanks!!  Geist tha burdill  Enormous 10:44, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
 * There are no clever responses to stupidity-- Relyk 11:33, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Clever response is no response; but isn't that a little bit boring? Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 13:13, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Rending Aura
You have no method of enchantment removal on your bar, meaning you're using the skill 30 sec before aggro to get CA onto foes, which is a shit idea. Otherwise you're depending on either your team for GDW/KDs {like YMLAD}, or requiring Dwarven Headbutt to be on your bar. either we add a note saying to only bring rending at the same time as headbutt, or remove it completely. Chieftain Alex 10:08, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
 * pious fury + rending over hof, mainbar iats + ymlad. Problem solved.--TahiriVeila 10:13, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Archive
Already listed in Any/A Dagger Spammer - it's for any class.--Saxazaxx (talk) 13:47, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
 * just a thought: do players (read: new pvx users whom are targeted by recent recruitment efforts) find these types of changes useful? Does it burden a derv player to read all the Any/A builds if searching for a yet-to-be discovered D/A variant dagger build? Juniper real (talk) 15:39, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't know. New players will load up a VoS. Players who care to finagle with things more will find out about the dagger spammer and start mixing and matching on their own. The build is already listed in the any/a, and no changes have been made since ever. I'm just trying to help clean up the dozens of outdated builds on here.--Saxazaxx (talk) 15:52, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
 * for sure, good point! and thanks Juniper real (talk) 18:24, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Maybe the Any/A page should be turned into a dagger spam guide page instead. --Krschkr (talk) 19:07, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
 * I am specifically against making a generic dagger spammer page a merge of all the existing builds. It's poor at showing how the concept compares to other options for each profession, and doesn't display relevant attributes for each profession unless you post 10 pvxbig skill bars. Variants/optionals also tend to be a mess on such combined pages. The current version of the Any/A page is only for the professions that don't have their own page and have essentially nothing worth bringing from their own skills. -Toraen (talk) 08:50, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Okie dokie.--Saxazaxx (talk) 23:45, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

You knew it was coming
Amorality (talk) 13:20, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * VoR is bad for the same reason crit agility is bad. LifeGuardian (talk) 21:35, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * “Counters: Enchantment stripping” Juniper real (talk) 13:03, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
 * With Zealous Vow you get +5e per hit, and have 1 energy regen (1/3 energy per second). With Vow of Resolution, you have at most 9 energy regen (which is 3 energy per second). Zealous Vow still remains the better choice for dagger spam, Vow of Resolution can't sustain the dagger spam. Both are weak to ench removal. ZStepmother (talk) 14:36, 28 April 2020 (UTC)


 * --Krschkr (talk) 14:41, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
 * }
 * @Juniper: VoR always puts itself on top of the stack, whereas you could utilize covers for ZV if needed for an area (which isn't perfect, but generally provides acceptable protection). Also ZV has a lower recharge and cast time so strips are less of an issue. -Toraen (talk) 18:30, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
 * all good points. I don’t prefer VoR over ZV at all. Guardians original response felt empty so I challenged it. I was prolly grumpy at the time ^ ^ Juniper real (talk) 00:14, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I like me some onslaught --Willarddog (talk) 13:29, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I like me some onslaught --Willarddog (talk) 13:29, 15 May 2020 (UTC)