User talk:Jaigoda/Builds/Caster Dagger Discussion

No fucking trolling. (As long as Toraen allows) I'm going to remove anything that is not constructive toward the discussion here, and if this starts turning into a flame war or otherwise excessive on drama, I'm going to request deletion. I actually want to discuss the build, and get the arguments onto the floor as to what peoples' complete opinions are here. Please, everybody keep an open mind.

Ground rules: I'm probably forgetting to mention something, but that's the main stuff. Now, discuss. -- Jai . -  02:05, November 22 2011 (UTC)
 * This is assumed to be used with Splinter Weapon, SoH, and possibly MoP and/or Orders. Prot Spirit, shelter, and other prots are assumed to be brought. The general consensus from last time was that this would be mostly a cspace build, but if you have other opinions feel free to voice them.
 * "Casters shouldn't be melees" is not a valid argument as we're not here to decide what other people should do with their chars. Base the discussion on effectiveness alone.
 * Comparing this to the other previously vetted dagger spam builds is invalid because we're looking only at casters, particularly ele, monks, and maybe necro.
 * I will start by mentioning the meleemancer is simply better for necro, to best abuse MoP. I've run earthshaker alot on my ele so that's fine. As for daggers, well the real question is "is it appropriate or effective to have a caster on the frontline" instead of talking just daggers. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 02:07, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * An HB necro is fine, yeah. Of course, you still shouldn't run MoP on the necro itself unless you're using something to recharge it, like Aura of Superiority or something, that a hero wouldn't be able to use. Though this is somewhat of a different category, as this doesn't imply as much use of balling and such as an HB build would. And of course you're going to look at whether it's a good idea to have a caster on the frontline, I don't think there's anyone that's arguing against that. My opinion is that putting a caster on the frontline generally isn't a bad idea, simply because there's tons of stuff out there that lets them tank safely. -- Jai . -  02:21, November 22 2011 (UTC)
 * In a 7h team where you can put the optimal skills on your heroes, melee players do get alot more out of those skills than a caster, that's sure. Your whole team synergises around the melee man. (insert lolpvp reference just for jai) you get SoH, MoP, Dark Fury, etc. I like HB nec with MoP because of uptime. A hero nec could also have it but due to it's lulz, putting it on a specced curses bar is only wise. I like /W bars because if your team is shit and you suck at balling you can just go in and trigger SY as much as you like with FGJ+AoS+DF. If you want to ball properly, you will want to get an AoE bar that has atleast WWA to trigger Splinters and lots of damage buffs. Daggers I'm not keen on for secondary profs. Energy is tight, and taking energy management elites just to alleviate the problem isn't going to help your damage output. Single-target apart from a minor amount from DB every 5 seconds (give or take a second). Rangers can run it, eles maybe, but also, there is a definite lack in utility with /A. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 02:35, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * DB's AoE isn't minor and you'll trigger it more than once every five seconds. There is a legitimate argument to be made in favor of 100b over daggers, but those statements are just wrong. AegisDok 03:21, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * By "those statements," you mean DB's AoE being minor and only once every 5 seconds? -- Jai . -  03:44, November 22 2011 (UTC)
 * I did say give or take; it's 4s actually, can be a tad more, though. Which means you get approx 25 AoE DPS from DB. Meh. It doesn't add SoH's damage so it seems largely pointless. Well, any doublestrike is good because you get double proc on SoH and other buffs, but you get that with S&MS. And Aegis; not wrong. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 03:49, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It adds up to a lot. Eh, arguing between sword (or scythe) and daggers is kind of ridiculous considering the main problem most of the community has with the build is the fact that it puts a caster in the frontline (we just don't want to have to admit that Guild Wars is that broken). AegisDok 04:00, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Meh, I didn't want to admit it during the argument of the dagger build, but I tested meleemancer extensively, initially as a joke, while skill capping and it was simply broken. I think the majority of good PvX players know, though... But you're also dagger lobbyists, which I dislike on any profession other than ranger/sin. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 04:31, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * And does this really have relevence to this page? Necro is like third or fourth on the eligibility for this build, so it's not really the point. Furthermore, HB and dagger spam fulfill different purposes, as one is better for balling and the other is better for cspace. Now, please, this is for discussion of dagger spam, most specifically for monk and ele. HB shouldn't factor into the discussion unless you're saying it completely encompasses what this build does on all of the casters, which you'll have a hard time backing up. -- Jai . -  04:52, November 22 2011 (UTC)
 * Energy. Go x/W on any caster and run with HB, S&MS and WWA and you have a better build. Lure properly and it will often outperform dagspam. Less skill spamming more skill doing, that's all. Don't need an IAS with /W bar but you can get doublestrikes alot more often with df+fgj to constantly spam s&ms when fighting single targets. Not that battles vs one foe last long in pve. something to consider though. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 05:12, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It's obvious that you are derailing this discussion. You can dedicate 2 skills (lotus and golden lotus) or one (empty palm) to provide sufficient e-management.  Ur basically rehashing the bad arguements u used last time and throwing in new ones (lol 5 second db). Nobody is arguing that a caster is as good as a sin with daggers, but it is still a decent option for cspace and fast attack speed exploits. Smity Smitington 06:00, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, while Smity ignores my points, how about someone actually addresses them. Ok, so you have 3 skills you want to spam but you don't have energy. You throw in another dagger attack for energy which isn't quick-activating (thus lowering dps even more. Then a worthless elite just for spamming 3 dagger attacks. How are my arguments bad? Spamming Sun and Moon Slash seems a much better way to abuse buffs. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 06:25, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * dagger spams main appeal is spamming the main chain, not the elite. Ur not wasting your elite since there is no better elite to take. I personally don't even use an elite with this, I find having to stop and cast to be annoying.  Lotus strikes work fine, big deal they are slower, you don't use them nearly as often as the other attacks, plus they are really not that slow considering drunken master (which should be mainbar jai).  Dagger attacks also have their own bonus damage, so sun and moon is not a good point.  Focus on the effectivenesa of this built compared to other options available to ele and monk.  Yea yea we have heard your hb argument.  The concensus seems to he that it is a different role and therefore isn't a great argument.  Dagger spam works on casters and although u are pointing out thing which make it less appealing than running daggers on a sin, u haven't succeeded in showning that it does not work. Smity Smitington 06:40, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not saying it doesn't work. Listen. I'm saying any/W is better for what you are trying to achieve without resorting to skills you don't want to fix the flaws in spamming 3 expensive skills. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 06:54, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

what other skills exactly are you missing out on by bringing emanagenent skills? Like I said dagger spam is about jagged->fox->db, everything else is just to complimemt those. And hb does not compare at all to the single target dps or attack speed so it is not accomplishing the same thing. Smity Smitington 07:19, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You're ignoring the other two essential skills in the /w build. But around those you centre fast adren gain to spam s&ms which triggers all your buffs twice, MoP twice, Barbs twice and gives a double adren boost for WWA. The perfect HB bar would have Air of Superiority (0 cast energy management) HB (0 cast and key to pro AoE domoges) For Great Justice; recharged by AoS for constant upkeep (Which recharges HB and FGJ often before they end) WWA ofc for abusing HB and, of course, EBSoH. Then you can take Savage Slash (look guise, utility) which is 1/2 cast too. So in full, I get AoE damage on every trigger and you get it every 4s. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 08:46, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Olook, you're getting a "double attack" every, say, 5 seconds at best (3 strikes to charge WWA under FGJ, 1 to activate WWA, 1 for S&MS). At any other point, you're doing 1 attack every 1.33 seconds. Guess what, dagger spam gives you a dual strike every 3-4 seconds (and look at DB's AoE; it's very comparable to two triggers of MoP: 1DB = 4MoP, if you're also using MoP that is), and also has a built-in IAS in the form of 0.5s attack skills. And AGAIN, you're comparing apples to oranges because you're assuming cute little circumstances that work in your favor, when, for single-target DPS, dagger spam will ALWAYS blow HB out of the water. Yes, HB will do more AoE damage if you ball, but that isn't the purpose of this build. Dagger spam is still totally viable even when there are AoE options around as well (just look at the derv builds if you don't believe me). -- Jai . -  12:52, November 22 2011 (UTC)

Bottom line, if you want to make an HB build for casters, go ahead. But stop fucking arguing for it on this page when there's not even a bar to compare it to (and no, I'm not saying you should go make one). They're separate builds, and maybe once HB gets vetted you can make the comparison. -- Jai . -  12:52, November 22 2011 (UTC)
 * Meh, I don't see the point in running a melee bar if you're not then going to take time to flag, aggro properly and take some effort in balling... Just run your shitty caster bar and cspace and wandspike... And you could take an IAS if you really wanted, but you can actually spam s&ms permanently and never autoattack when DF is up. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 19:27, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Losing your elite to energy management makes no difference, as Dagger Spam works just as well without an elite. All of the damage migation avalible means that it doesn't matter that you're a squishy, you may need to micro more prots on yourself becasue you're FL, but that's not much hassle. Imo, benefits of running a frontline > drawbacks of frontlining on a squishy.
 * Also @Excluded, the point is Cspacing on a melee > anything else a Monk/Ele could run. That's all that's being discussed. Nobody needs to hear about HB, because that has litterally nothing to do with the discussion. PewPew   QQ   20:55, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, this is my point exactly, PewPew. It's more to do with tactics, not build. You can just spec 12 in dagger or any martial weapon and go out there and cspace, autoattack with your buffs and prots. It's not a case of "is daggerspam worth it?" or "let's compare builds"; it's sort of what I said at the beginning of the caster daggers debate before. 1.take shelter 2.cspace mob with daggers 3.??? 4.profit. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 21:14, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Are you talking about /W 100b on a talk page for caster daggers yet again excluded?-- Relyk 23:25, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * n0 ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 23:34, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I've voted against the first Caster Dagger build in the past, calling it a gimmick, my reasons were the awkward position of a caster in the frontline and the existence of a beautiful skill named Assassin's Promise. Sure you can hold your ground at the frontline in most cases, but there are HM areas in which you're still at a clear disadvantage. My second reason is AP, some people claimed that the DPS of the Caster Dagger build exceeded those of the casters, which is simply not true because every profession can go AP. I remember calling balling overrated, but I do now however acknowledge the tactical advantages of being in the frontline, and not that it matters but it's quite fun to play. To cut things short, I do now support the Caster Daggers build, I do feel however that it belongs in the "good" category. Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 23:45, 22 November 2011 (UTC)