Archive talk:Team - Barrage/Pet/Archive1

Discussion
Editors, please note - this page will soon be replaced by my updated copy. -- Armond Warblade 21:08, 30 April 2007 (CEST)


 * Updated. Lots of typing. Ow. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 00:14, 4 May 2007 (CEST)

I don't see why predator's pounce is standard really. If your pet is taking damage it is very unlikely that PP will save it. There are just better utility skills that you could use.

Two notes are wrong btw. One about the elemental armor (Because nearly all foes in the ruins of the Tomb of the Primeval Kings have additional armor against elemental damage, it can be advantageous for all barragers to bring an elemental bow string.) and one about sharpen daggers only working on critical hits, which is not the case anymore. Changing those. Swiftslash \\  15:07, 20 May 2007 (CEST)


 * PP is there to make your pet last longer. I've seen a lot of people use it. It doesn't save the pet in a pinch, per se, but it does add an extra mob or two to its life if you spam it.
 * May I ask why you removed the note about shambling horrors pwning sharpen daggers, btw? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 17:51, 20 May 2007 (CEST)
 * Because sharpen daggers isn't used even anymore used by critical barragers. Even though they're sucky now the only crit barragers I've seen around in tombs never bring it, thus making the note unnecessary. Revert if you think I'm wrong, just trying to help out.
 * Regarding PP, I'd rather see it as a suggestion in a spirit/utility/PP optional slot or so. Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] 17:56, 20 May 2007 (CEST)

You should also put in a build or a Rt/N who uses splinter weapon and mark of pain. I am not sure about all of the skills that this build uses, but it is extremely common in tombs and makes the run a lot faster. || Ressmonkey 19:57, 20 May 2007 (CEST)


 * I have no clue what that build is, I'm basically working off of tombs experience that's getting older and older. One day when I've stopped obsessing with vanquisher/defender I might go back to tombs. In the meantime, help please. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 22:36, 20 May 2007 (CEST)

May I suggest a P/R B/P that I made a while ago? The damage is inferior to a prim ranger, ofcourse but the party support and the zomfghaxx energy management makes up for it. It's on my userpage under 'Ideas' if you're intrested. Or I could just post it here. Hm... Swiftslash \\  22:43, 20 May 2007 (CEST)

Tombs Para B/P - Farming and General PvE [build prof=p/r marks=12 leader=8+1+3 command=10+1 beast=2][Barrage][anthem of flame][go for the eyes][anthem of envy][leaders comfort][comfort animal][charm animal][signet of return][/build]

This is a really good B/P variant IMO, it has strong energy management, good party support and decent damage. No need for a zealous bow so vamp or sundering can be used for more damage. Swiftslash \\  06:01, 13 June 2007 (EDT)

Can we have a note saying no elemental bowstrings w/ orders? my groups always screw that up. 76.19.223.231 04:30, 22 May 2007 (CEST)


 * There are notes about that, but we can't really put a big note saying "NO elemental strings ffs!" because elemental is fully doable, if you run a full team of it. People need to just think or read some before they make their builds. Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] 09:09, 22 May 2007 (CEST)

A note on the orders using a 20% HCT/HSR with Enchantments +20% would be nice, it really helps with all the enchantment spells (I rarely need to use OoP). I would also increase Soul Reaping level (reducing Healing Prayers) because it helps with energy management and bring some hex remover (like Remove Hex).

pls get rid of awaken the blood and well of blood on the orders necro cause both these skills just piss the monk and the mm of respectivly (as im sure alot of you know) also mending is just stupid cause its a waste of time and energy. raise the heal prayers up to 10 and soul reaping down to allow this. signet of sorrows; signet of lost soulds, jundice gaze, vampiric gaze and life siphon can be put in sa optional to adjust for this.

Move
Tombs Barrage/Pet guide perhaps? Start fleshing out a guides section along with Guide:Invinci-Monk Guide and the soon to be made IW guide? --Mgrinshpon (C/T) 17:15, 29 May 2007 (CEST)


 * Can do, but perhaps simply Barrage/Pet guide? This used to be Barrage/Pet (Tomb ruins) before I moved it here, with the idea that the build would do more than just tombs (as I've seen it in Urgoz, SF, etc.) -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 16:45, 30 May 2007 (CEST)

cleanup
Instead of listing MILLIONS of buidls you can use for teh B/Ps, why not just put the links at the bottom? Right now this article is very long and lengthly.&mdash; Cheese Slaya  ( Talk ) 21:49, 12 June 2007 (EDT)
 * The idea was to get rid of all the random build pages that say they're for use in a BP group, as that way we don't have to run around looking for links and readers can have everything they need all in one place. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 15:57, 14 June 2007 (EDT)

Thanks for the ideas
This has worked great for me, I've been using a critical barrager with the build listed here, and it works fine...as long as you stay far enough back >.< And yes, spamming bleeding with Sharpen Daggers works just fine, my team really liked it. Just thought I'd put my 2 cents in. Silver40596 17:09, 15 June 2007 (EDT)


 * :D You're welcome. Though what with the release of Triple Shot this page may get a huge makeover... I'm wondering if there's some way we could do four R/N B/Ps, with the extra slot filled by someone helping the orders maintain splinter weapon on the B/Ps. B/Ps would use Triple Shot, Dual Shot, and Forked Arrow (during the second or two OoV is down) for mass AoE damage, followed by Oath Shot for recharge, recast their Marks if necessary, and use Triple, Dual, and Forked again. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 04:19, 18 June 2007 (EDT)

Dear God....
so much crap in this page - Skakid9090 14:17, 21 June 2007 (EDT)
 * Yes, it great way to collect crappy build that would neve get through vetting. (i mean, W/R barrager, what the hell? same can be told about judges insight one or harriers grasp one ). Some strange fixation on putting ATB on blood specced necroes (which only wastes energy, decreases your ability to use sac skills and makes you way weaker for no good reason. 4 animate skills on MM ... etc etc. Zweistein 02:59, 25 June 2007 (EDT)

Massive cleanup
lets purge this article to make it more usefull. Teambuild article should have ... teambuild quality to it. Like, actually proposing team structure with THE builds that are supposed to work together, instead of suggesting couple of builds at random.

a) Remove sub par builds or put them to separate pages to be vetted; most builds seem to be force-made just to add R/x to prove x is viable secodnary: * Insightful Barrager (insightfull does not add much extra punch, wasted aps) * Painful Barrager (curses specs too low, if mop is wanted, party should get curses necro) * Healing Barrager (pointless waste of att points; recup healing is too small to help in aggro breakign problems; life heal is too random) * Burning Barrager (selfishly break teambuild) * Domination Barrager (ranger can spend those 5 seconds spent by casting those stuff like actually interupting) * Pious Barrager (too much downtime, too conditional) * Penetration Barrager (its just .... too bad build) - i dont see any of theese to survive veting, but if they do, they shouldnt be here, they should have their own pages and linked in "also see" section.

Thus, only generic R/Mo and specialized R/Rt, A/R and R/P would stay but with theese mods: * R/Mo - get rid of Predator's Pounce, make it "spirit slot" * A/R - keen arrow instead of shaddow refuge * R/Rt - get rid of destruction, call it "spirit slot" * R/P - do same with brace yourself (or just remove it just like rest.)

b) do same for support characters * Wilderness Orders (just pointless, troll wont help to spam orders) * Orders is Power (bip/order is never used in tombs, in urgoz, yes, but is completelly different build) * Burning Command (all his contributions are conditional or simply too weak (incoming ...); there are way better ways how para can assist b/p, this aint it.) * Jagged Bomber (its build sound for hero, not for human; jagged got nerf)

update other builds:

* Monk builds need rework (healing breeze, right) to provide one definite build. * Orders drop Atb and succor for heal area. * keep Golem Bonder but replace horror with fiend and remove vamp horor in favor of rotting flesh.

etc etc ... i would make too many cleanup changes but its something that people need to agree on Zweistein 02:59, 25 June 2007 (EDT)


 * A lot of this was vetted on GWiki, pointedly the R/Me, Judge's, MoP, healing R/Rt, and the burning barrager. The Pious and Penetration were my creation, I won't complain (much) if they're shot down. For the crit barrager, why on earth would you want to go in without a self heal when you've got 30 less armor than the rest of the team against most attacks? Keen Arrow isn't that great anyway when you should be spamming barrage. For support characters, I've seen a LOT of groups with an orders with BiP. It works damn well since order of pain can be kept up indefinetely and helps the monks out a lot. For the troll orders, yes, it does help, you just have to be reasonably intelligent about your health and timing. MM builds were meant to give a general idea of what to do, but we can mess with them if need be. As for the monks rework, the WoH one at least works fine. I use it there every time I monk, and breeze isn't a problem (in fact, it lets rangers attack through empathy with little work on my part). And dropping succor? Have you ever monked there? Golem bonder: Yeah... fiends attack at range... they make a much better wall, don't you think? Vamp horror to rotting flesh? If you have five barragers and an orders dealing damage, don't you think you should be able to get at least one corpse before everyone wipes? The only reason you would ever need a primer on an mm in a full team is because you're too impatient to sit around for the few seconds it takes for a purple number to appear on your screen. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 10:04, 26 June 2007 (EDT)
 * GWiki was noted for usually low quality of build veted (such as, monk smiter build veted because there was no thoer monk smiter build around and for no other better reason). Crit barrager self heal: shadow refuge is hardly self heal you want - especially with little shaddow arts points. as for Bip, you really really should not need it unless in elite mission, if monk needs bip, he is bad monk, its plain simple as that; besides, bip is massive party liability (especially with awaken the blood) sucking much of monk healing (and thus negating energy he gives to monk) unless he is 55. troll/orders - why would anyone run orders which have health problems and cant keep em up during battle?. (Yes I monked there if you have to ask; succor hardly helps with energy - your main challenge is to catch spikes, not to do anti pressure healing, rachger attacking throught empathy, hmm... that would be really bad player, besides, HB hardly negates empathy damage); Reason why MM is in B/P is damage, like it or not, walling comes secodnary; besides, you raise fiends at spot when stuff dies, quite excelent place to wall, no? Rotting flesh is not primer, its cosntant fire-and-forget DPS. etc etc
 * Look, its your article, i take it, but it really needs vetting on included builds, and it should be team build article, not collection of builds that you can meet at tombs when pugging. IT needs to set standarts, not to follow them. etc etc Zweistein 04:18, 28 June 2007 (EDT)

Concerning recent revisions
72.139.17.252 took it upon his/herself to revert to a far earlier revision. I support Eronth's revert, but am unsure about what to do with Rapta and Kishu's edits since then. Can we work out what the article is supposed to look like? I saw absolutely nothing on the talk page concerning this. -- Armond Warblade 02:55, 24 July 2007 (CEST)

thats odd, because i deffo remember tping y i edited the orders build. basicly i just reodered the skills so they were easier to make sense of, fiddled with the sumarising paragraph so it was a bit clearer, then added Equiptment heading, and a usage paragraph because i was being thourgh. Kishu 19:16, 24 July 2007 (CEST)

Question on Orders
This is something that has always baffled me and someone with more experience should clarify me. When I first capped OoV on my necro I always used to spam it with OoP. Then I looked at OoV's description more closely then said "What the hell am I doing using both of them at once?" I see the necro here also uses both. Might someone tell me why?

I really dont mean to look like a noob I'm just trying to see why you would carry both and not just OoV. ~Ashvireza


 * You can't use OoV all the time. OoP is used between OoV's. I think. [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] frvwfr2  (talk · contributions) 18:40, 2 August 2007 (CEST)


 * 90% of the time the necro doesn't have a staff wrapping of enchanting. In that case, OoP is used during the downtime between OoVs. With an enchanting wrapping, you get the extra second to cast OoV again. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 18:55, 2 August 2007 (CEST)


 * I always use an enchant mod but I still cover with OoP. OoV has a 2 sec cast time 6 sec duration (with wrap) and a 5 sec recharge. If you don't want any downtime bring both. Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] (contributions  * warrior guide ) 20:25, 2 August 2007 (CEST)


 * Aww, I was under the impression that it was a 1 sec cast. Darn. (Still, I'd encourage no wrap if you're doing a Mark of Pain --> Triple Shot --> Dual Shot --> Forked Arrow --> Oath Shot thing, as you need a short downtime to get off forked arrow effectively.) -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 22:48, 2 August 2007 (CEST)


 * But Forked arrow only works if you are under no hexes or enchants right? So why would orders matter? [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] frvwfr2  (talk · contributions) 22:54, 2 August 2007 (CEST)


 * Orders is an enchant (thus, enchanting mod). If you already knew that, I'll interpret your question differently and say that you only need orders down for while you're using forked - it's beneficial the rest of the time. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 22:56, 2 August 2007 (CEST)

Bump.
We need a B/P build vetted here. - Krowman    05:40, 27 August 2007 (CEST)

Dervish Barrager
May I add a Derv barrager to this list? It's a new, somewhat gimmicky one...

[build prof=d/r marksmanship=12 mysticism=12+1+2 earthp=3+1][barrage][optional][mystic vigor][zealous renewal][mystic regeneration][comfort animal][charm animal][sunspear rebirth signet][/build] etc.
 * [[Heart of Fury@15]
 * [[Savage Shot@12]

-- Nova   --  (contribs) 21:47, 24 September 2007 (CEST)

Not very good in Tombs due to alot of enchant removal there. Swiftslash \\  (contributions  * warrior guide ) 22:18, 24 September 2007 (CEST)

WTB Pious Fury. Shido 21:03, 17 October 2007 (CEST)

Elemental Barragers
Of course the build should have elemental barragers, if they are here, my rating goes up, if they go away, my rating goes down. On innovation of course, becaust THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE!!! Og lo 20:03, 4 October 2007 (CEST)

Archive:Team - Barrage/Pet. Besides, innovation is how much it's used - whether it's meta or not. -- Armond Warblade 00:58, 5 October 2007 (CEST)

Mian reason agianst elemental barragers is that elemental weapons dont trigger orders, which is bad. ---  Ressmonkey   (talk)  02:43, 29 October 2007 (CET)

R/W
[build prof=range/warr marksm=12+1+3 beastm=6+1 expert=11+1][barrage][distracting shot][Savage Shot]["Save Yourselves!"][optional][charm animal][comfort animal][Sunspear Rebirth Signet][/build]

Something like that. 2 of these can keep +100 armor for party members if foes break frontlines. Swiftslash \\  (contributions  * sandbox ) 21:35, 30 October 2007 (CET)


 * True, but you get hit with cripple and bleeding. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 23:50, 30 October 2007 (CET)
 * Yeah >.> Might be better outside of tombs. Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] (contributions  * sandbox ) 07:36, 31 October 2007 (CET)

Skills Nerfs
There needs to be changes to the build because of the November 14 skill nerf. One highlight is that pets do not leave corpses. . Also there was a nerf to splinter weapon. 


 * So? I ran this hours after the second update and it worked just fine. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 21:09, 14 November 2007 (CET)


 * Gud MM's don't need pets to raise army. Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] (contributions  * sandbox ) 21:37, 14 November 2007 (CET)


 * However, it will may B/P slow down, especially in places like tombs where corpses are fewer.


 * So? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 23:17, 14 November 2007 (CET)


 * Skills Nerfs? That is-snot a skill. --71.114.89.108 01:30, 15 November 2007 (CET)


 * Splinter Weapon is. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 03:45, 15 November 2007 (CET)

Barrage got buffed. Run will be slower maybe, but if you have a decent MM, getting minions will not be a prob. Swiftslash \\   (contributions  * sandbox ) 16:14, 15 November 2007 (CET

IMO, allthough I havent tried since update:

SV 1

SV2

FW

EoE

WW

+Some monk, FG MM and Orders with support healing (/Rt, /Mo or /D).

SV is good if you get attention to your backline, EoE and symb is purely optional but EoE adds a nice punch in coordinated teams and Symb can be good against foes without enchants (basicly all but dryders). Dust trap is also optional but adds defense. Symb bond adds pet defense along with 9+1 beast (12 marks, 9 exp) except on the ww where attrb will be a bit more spread.

FW is in battle resser and WW is hard near-wipe resser. Swiftslash \\  (contributions  * sandbox ) 16:26, 19 November 2007 (CET)
 * Splinter please. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 01:01, 20 November 2007 (CET)

Time & effort
Ive been out 2 or 3 times with the standard B/P team build in tombs & tbh I think its not worth the time & effort until someone comes up with new builds. & also staying alive is even more important as pets dont leave bodies meaning once all the minions are dead its a lot harder to recover from a near 'MASS TEAM WIPE' Im sure a lot of you have been in situations where only 2ppl in the team are left alive from a mass nuking from 2 or 3 dryers. if pets dont leave corpses then how are we supposed to recover from a near mass white wash???? & imo it takes long enough to get around tombs before the they nerfed it & since it takes longer for me personally its not worth the effort that goes into it. Id rather do a few droks runs to get the equalivalent value of the green drops plus the random cash. I cant believe Anet have nerfed B/P after its been around for so long. not only do we have to put up with people leaving the team while we are in tombs but we are going in there handicapped permanently
 * Er, if two or three dryders are wiping your team, find a better team. Interrupts + kiting = damage prevention. This barely takes any longer now than it did before; you just need a team that doesn't suck. It's not hard. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 01:02, 20 November 2007 (CET)
 * After i replaced my female ranger with a male ranger (got barrage, BA, BHA, Ebon dust aura, splinter weapon for him) I tried tombs, Ebon Dust aura, avoided lot of damage, + used armor of sanctity. I saw it was hard (or perhaps the "IT'S HARD MODE" made something) so because i always wanted to make mesmers farm, i made build:Team - SSS tomb ruins build. When I announced in LA, some ppl shouted that is a cheap idea, but i think it's good because of armor ignoring damage, that can be very handy against wurms and high armor foes. Reversal of damage does double help, reducing damage you take and increasing your DPS. Even if you don't have two signets, you can use other fast recharging smiting skills. user:Borotvalt and for the first comment: it was nerfed because everyone used it and noone thought of making and using other professions there for speed farm.

"I Am The Strongest"?
Could the Rebirth Barrager carry "I Am The Strongest in his build? It would look like this: [build name="Rebirth Barrager" prof=range/monk marksm=12+1+3 beastm=8+1 expert=8+1 wilder=7+1][barrage][savage shot]["I Am The Strongest!"][troll unguent][throw dirt][charm animal][comfort animal][rebirth][/build] Methinks it would boost up his DPS quite a bit, if having a big rank in Norn(I have Rank 3, and I don't think it's bad). Dr4goN 16:36, 3 December 2007 (CET)
 * I've seen this around, but been too lazy to add it in. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 01:48, 4 December 2007 (CET)