Archive talk:Me/A Way of the Empty Palm

General
This page shouldn't repeat the builds already on the site (the A, R, W, P and D variants), and tagging the any/A version as Meta-great right off the bat is questionable. It's a valid thing you can do, but not the Meta for caster classes (if you rolled a caster, you should probably spend a good deal of time using that class for things it is uniquely able to do, rather than aping an assassin most of the time). Having the martial professions' builds and the caster Any/A separate helps distinguish this. I think ele could probably get it's own page though since SB provides sufficient energy management and ES gives a decent buffer on energy - it's a full build using the primary in an advantageous enough way. Also, having valid template codes is a nice perk of having separate pages. Toraen (talk) 11:51, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
 * "you should probably spend a good deal of time using that class for things it is uniquely able to do, rather than aping an assassin most of the time" Alas, for general PvE this is basically the most optimal setup. If you made your character for a specific purpose (SCs, farming, PvP, whatever), you'll get to use a primary-based build when you do that, but for character development or title hunting, aping an assassin is the way to go.
 * I created this page because the individual ones are a mess, and the core dagger spammer build is the same for all professions, so it makes sense to have them in one place. The other pages serve next to no purpose with this one; really, they're all just variants of the core A/Any build. I could have presented the page as such, with a ton of variants at the bottom, but I decided to twist the rules and make it easier to understand, a bit more like a guide.
 * Template codes are nice, yeah. If you want, I'll replace the See Also section with 10 template codes for people to copy and paste. Houroftheowl (talk) 16:45, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Part of the template code problem is that the build pack script can only pull from the pvxbig bars, and on anything that is not a team build will only pull the first one (with some special coding for the builds with separate player and hero bars). Merging all the pages is also worse for people just browsing for builds, since an Any/A page won't show up in the profession section they're looking at. I don't mind keeping the Any/A page for professions that contribute literally nothing to the dagger spammer bar but since the others have a fully fleshed out bar and different attributes set it's better they get their own pages. We try to keep build pages concise so they can be quickly picked up and used as most people don't come here to read a guide on how to assemble/tweak what they're looking for - we do have a Guide namespace for that though. (I'd be way less down on Any/X pages if I hadn't taken over maintaining the Build Pack script I think) Toraen (talk) 23:57, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
 * We could also move this to the guide section instead, it's well written and length shouldn't be a limiting factor there. Finding it becomes harder for users though. --DefinitelyNotHanz (talk) 07:39, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I'll admit that split pages versus single page for the dagger spammer variants is a presentation issue that not every user would agree on, because no matter how we do it there's going to be someone turned off by how it's done. The viability of the dagger spammer certainly isn't in question. I've actually been thinking about how to get the Any/X pages served properly by the build pack script, but I can't think of a way that doesn't require specific formatting for those pages or just making them a mess of up to 10 pvxbig bars (I'm hesitant to do this because it'd be easy for well-meaning users to mess up the format being relied on). Toraen (talk) 06:03, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
 * For general use, for mesmers, I'm in disagreement. The general strength of esurge builds is beyond disgusting right now. Necros and monks on the other hand? I guess it works alright. NapalmFlame (talk) 09:02, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Shadow Form
What do people think of Shadow Form as an elite? The idea being, the player is a puller/dagger-spammer hybrid. Use Shadow Form to try to get a big pull clumped up with heroes flagged back, then let it expire and switch back to dagger spam when heroes come in. Something like this maybe? [build prof=Any/A dag=12 sha=12][Jagged Strike][Fox Fangs][Death Blossom][Golden Lotus Strike][Way of the Lotus][Shroud of Distress][Shadow Form][Optional][/build] Sonofthort (talk)
 * Without a self-strip, it could be kinda annoying to time it appropriately so that you can start dealing appreciable damage ASAP (though if you don't care much about speed you could just accept the inefficiency). Someone once posted a Vow of Silence Dervish that used the same idea (with advantage that it could be dropped at the user's discretion) and I thought it was a neat idea worth storing (spell protection makes balling way simpler), but a sufficient amount of other voters did not think so. -Toraen (talk) 14:13, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I guess that's fair, interesting that there is some history here. When I've tested this, I don't use SF every pull, and the times I do, usually takes most of SF's time, but there are cases where I'm attacking while still under SF. One thought about dagger spam vs dervish, is that dagger spam is kind of elite agnostic. Even on main sin, it took a while for WotA to catch on, the elite just doesn't matter that much, as long as you can spam the chain. Derv on the other hand might be more hampered without an offensive elite. For SF, you could decrease Shadow Arts a bit to decrease the length, and avoid using enchanting mod when casting it. Another problem I ran into, is that you may need a special hero setup to safely nuke the large balls this can pull. If you are running this kind of setup, chances are your dagger damage is not going to be a significant addition to the nuke anyways. Sonofthort (talk)
 * Why would you spend time trying to make a decent ball when it takes less time to just kill the group? Unless balling up and spiking enemies is your gimmick (and for that you dont take a dagger spam build), you're better off just rushing into them. And you can easily make an okay ball without SF, just flatbow them, run a bit back/around the corner and then you have a decent ball without having wasted an elite skill slot. ZStepmother (talk) 13:17, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Sure, that strategy works sometimes, not all the times. Some enemies are going to spike you/snare you instantly. Example: when in the undercity and you come up to that Kappa boss, there is a ton of kappa here. Without balling, you can break the groups apart. Shadow form lets you clump all the kappa together in that room. You don't use it every pull, and its not like way of the empty palm is some uber damage elite we are missing out on. Sonofthort (talk)
 * Let me rephrase what you said: The A/any empty palm build's damage output is so neglectable that you could aswell play a tank and have a greater effect by balling foes up than contributing damage yourself? --Krschkr (talk) 18:34, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
 * What I mean to say, is that you can have comparable damage output without running empty palm. In most instances, you are only going to get a few chains off before a mob is killed anyways, empty palm's long term energy management isn't needed too often. Sonofthort (talk)
 * Even if you fight spellcasters, you can still flatbow them and run back a bit so they are a bit balled up. In most cases its a waste of time to try and make a ball, compared to just running in and killing everythingZStepmother (talk) 17:39, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

Wastrel's Collapse
Get a BiP. The elite proposed by this skill page doesn't really seem worth it. Instead monks and necromancers could bring at least one useful skill from their own profession to add effectivity or free up other party members' skill slots, attribute spreads and secondary professions. Wastrel's collapse is useful to keep foes balled a bit in the beginning and as a gap closer in general. --Krschkr (talk) 23:42, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Necromancers
Demonic flesh might work well in areas where scan is not needed. That should do better than the version proposed by this page and allow us to get that profession off the page. --Krschkr (talk) 23:42, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Monks
Add Lotus Strike, Golden Lotus Strike, Asuran Scan, Balthazar's Spirit, Shatter Hex or whatever. That might do better than the version proposed by this page and allow us to get that profession off the page. --Krschkr (talk) 23:42, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Necromancers have the Soul Taker build now, and I've made a monk page that leaves the elite open (but there's only 3 real options, none are especially powerful). We could probably repurpose this page into a Me/A one and see where that ends up. -Toraen (talk) 23:06, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Or just archive. I like the Mo/A addition as its own page. Me/A dagger spam just shouldn't be a page. Monk is only justified because monks are very limited on damage options. Willarddog (talk) 19:41, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Once the Necro/monk pages get out of trial and are tested/vetted, I think this page no longer really serves much of a purpose. Mesmers have such high quality builds that they really have no business ever running dagger spammer. It made sense with necro/monk, as those are weaker professions so daggers are an ok option. But a mesmer should be held to a much higher standard, so a Me/A dagger spammer deserves a trash rating. --Xanshiz (talk) 09:04, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

WELL?
You are running a really bad bar on one of the strongest classes in the game. I'm not sure this setup deserves to stay in the namespace. Every other class has something useful to offer.--Xanshiz (talk) 17:27, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * This could probably do with a votewipe. Most of the votes were made assuming the other profession bars were being vetted. I only voted 4-3 (lowest possible good) because it's still effective at buff triggering, but I wouldn't be sad to see it leave the site entirely. -Toraen (talk) 19:05, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I would only use this bar in hero teams, as a melee player can be pretty effective at managing hero ai. I could be convinced otherwise though. Sonofthort (talk) 19:59, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Re:vote wipe -- a "good" vote in the past kinda makes sense. Monks don't have any strong damage options in smiting, and necros were pretty mediocre prior to the anniversary patch. However, now that this is a mesmer page, I think it should be judged in comparison to other mesmer options. Even if you have a team full of physical support, I still can't imagine a situation where a Me/A dagger spammer outperforms an ESurge/Panic/Ineptitude bar. Maybe if you're facing extreme caster shutdown? --Xanshiz (talk) 19:15, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I removed all votes from 2017/2018. Right now the build has a trash rating and is heading towards the archive. --Krschkr (talk) 14:18, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I get that mesmers have good caster bars but I would still run dagger spam on mesmer sometimes in hero teams, probably just as good if not better than casting bars. Really need to get the standard testing process down to provide evidence about any of this. User 100425457 (talk) 12:59, 6 July 2020 (UTC)