Build talk:N/any Icy Veins

Old Discussion
Note that this page originated from a page split. Some content of the original talk page Build talk:N/any Icy Veins Hero may be of interest. --Krschkr (talk) 00:08, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

Suggestions
I think a player IV bar would be worthwhile, and I'd give it a good/great. The current bar is similar to what I've been running, but I'm wondering if some changes could be made:

- Can death magic be optional? If you already have an MM in the team, PE will interfere, and the MM likely already has PB. Perhaps can list some variants for different attribute lines. Use superior soul reaping if not using this death magic variant. I've used curses (weaken armor actually pretty good with this build), blood magic, and event fire magic as alternatives.

- I usually use necrosis as it helps spike down the target, so I try to bring some other hexes and conditions for trigger. Perhaps mention this if necrosis is listed as an optional (and list some other options to go with necrosis).

- 40/40 soul reaping set helps a lot with this build. There is no easy way to get a 40/40 set though without building it yourself with inscriptions and weapon mods. It's expensive and time consuming researching how to get a cheap 40/40 set. Perhaps a few sentences about how to get the set would help (can use the weapon crafter in command post for example to get naked inscribable weapons).

- Energy management skill also optional? SoLS is great, and fits with the soul reaping theme, but can be a little clunky to use. Glyph of Lesser Energy might also work here. Sonofthort (talk)
 * - Probably not a bad idea. This build was likely intended for minionless teams, but variants that let it exist in more teams would be good.
 * - The build already has a couple hexes which are sufficient for a Necrosis trigger (it only needs one or the other, not both like Discord). If your target doesn't have Icy Veins on it, that should be the priority before casting Necrosis anyway. You also have teammates, but I imagine making death magic optional will open slots for more conditions/hexes anyway should they be needed.
 * - We generally have not listed how to get specific equipment, since that information is available on GWW. Links to the relevant crafters, collectors or uniques (whichever is easiest) should be fine and sufficient though.
 * - SoLS is used under the same condition that Finish Him is. This doesn't seem particularly clunky to me, you can even use them at the same time to cover the cost of FH (though SoLS will be used more often due to its lower recharge). GoLE won't have near the return that SoLS does over time, but combined with Soul Reaping might be enough (I have not tested this). -Toraen (talk) 11:47, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Good points. I split apart the build, this might be a good start. Thoughts on GolE, SoLS is probably always better, but if you have a BiP, GoLE is possible, though SoLS is probably still more effective. Leaving it out for now. What do you think about Rising Bile as an optional? I have some doubts about this skill. Any other ideas for the build page? Sonofthort (talk)
 * Unless there already are too few corpses for a minion master I never saw issues with using putrid explosion. I even use it in a team with 3 minion masters. ~140 armor ignoring AoE damage are just worth so much, especially in a build which focuses exactly on killing leftover foes next to a priority target. The curses skills don't really contribute to the build, they're just nice to have conditions for which there should be a better place somewhere in the team. Could bring mark of pain in a team with 100b/vos for spiking balling mobs more quickly, placing IV on a different target becase if how mop works. The issue with rising bile is that it's only effective if the target lives for an extended period of time, which would mean that the rest of the build remains ineffective up to that point and that the entire team wasn't able to deliver decent damage, in which case you shouldn't really have run an IV build in the first place. --Krschkr (talk) 18:22, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I get what you're saying about PE. My concern is that this seems to go against convention wisdom, compared to the rest of the builds on here. If it was generally ok to take PE with MM, then why do we not see this skill on more death magic/MM builds throughout this site? Not to be a stickler, but is the 3 minion master build vetted here? The death magic version of this build certainly has a lot more damage, I can see that, its almost a shame to gimp it. It definitely is possible to bring the curses skills on another bar, but they can just as easily be brought on this bar. Weaken Armor has pretty good synergy with IV. I thought about MoP, not sure about this skill. We want to kill the target quickly, where with MoP, we want the target to start alive while the adjacent foes are killed. Ideally they all die at the same time with MoP. It could be an optional though. My thought about making Death Magic optional is that the core build still works pretty well without death magic, and it can be nice to have options if death magic spells are already covered in your team. Maybe a note that Death Magic variant is the preferred version? Sonofthort (talk)
 * Just want to add, if you feel strongly that death magic should be "the bar", go ahead and change it. I will have to test it out personally before I rate it, as I am more familiar with other variants. Sonofthort (talk)
 * If we consider the death magic version considerably better than the alternatives in general, we should keep it as the main bar and suggest i.e. curses skills as a build variant (like we do with EoE over intensity). Mark of pain would be a fine variant for certain team setups as it adds another way to approach encounters while keeping the rest of the build functioning like it would anyway. Weaken armor would only be worth it in a team with plenty of other armor dependant damage: Instead of buffing just your own icy veins by (up to) 41% you could deal armor ignoring damage with putrid bile or explosion, which is the better solution in teams with mostly armor ignoring damage. But don't worry, I'm not going to try forcing a certain build version on the build page! We should just make sure that the people know in which context one build variant is preferable over another. This is the team I mentioned, but apparently no one in PvX was interested in testing it until now, so you won't find any votes on it other than the author's biased one. --Krschkr (talk) 23:09, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Makes sense, I put the death magic version back up as main bar. I'll get around to rating this soon. It seems pretty comparable to some of the other necro bars on here (AP bomber and MoP nuker). MoP nuker may be slightly better. Also, I'll have to try that team build out at some point! Sonofthort (talk)
 * I suppose one Me/N could be replaced with an energy surge/visions of regret mesmer with spiritual pain. Might be a first idea for further optimizing the team. I didn't play necromancer in the last weeks, so I didn't think much about that team. --Krschkr (talk) 21:49, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

optional skills
what about Ebon battle standard of honor? seems like a good boost considering Icy Veins is not armor ignoring. Depending on foes armor rating, it could do more damages than intensity. Or maybe it is not worth it considering that the follow up skills are armor ignoringJilonor (talk) 09:07, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Ebon battle standard of honour boosts the damage of icy veins more if its damage drops to 21. As we play with 16 soul reaping that means that 116 damage have to be cut down to 21 first, which is a reduction to 18,1%. A damage reduction by 80,19% happens with an armour rating of about 159, which is quite rare. So, no, intensity should usually be better than the battle standard. If we were to use icy veins on recharge and in theory create AoE damage every 6 seconds, let's say double the amount of damage packets, we'd still have to face a foe with 120 armour rating, which is not too rare, but it indicates that you've picked the wrong build in the first place. If you don't like intensity too much, go for cry of pain. Got no style, I know, but unless you have team members/bone fiends to buff the standard won't be worth it in this build. --Krschkr (talk) 16:02, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Intensity
Is kinda meh. I often find myself using it because it's an easy to access PvE skill. It's useful against lvl 20 mobs, but the damage falls off as enemies scale. Necrosis should be brought against high level enemies/hard mode.

Curses variant makes no sense, I think. The builds efficiency falls fast by dropping attribute points, and Masochism means Soul Reaping and Death Magic go hand in hand. -- DANDY ^_^ --
 * I agree with all points. --Krschkr (talk) 22:53, 1 May 2020 (UTC)