Archive talk:P/Mo Energy Support Paragon

need some help on optionals and attributes... appreciated. wild throw maybe... might ditch spear altogether. &mdash; RAWR! Skakid9090  07:37, 30 July 2007 (CEST)

Maybe Chorus of Zeal? Also, maybe stick energizing finale and a low-spec WY! or GftE or something on it. --Edru viransu //QQ about me 07:40, 30 July 2007 (CEST)

just wondering, but isn't that a lot of energy loss? Bluemilkman 07:41, 30 July 2007 (CEST)

bump &mdash; RAWR! Skakid9090  20:44, 30 July 2007 (CEST)

omgzord! I have a build similar to this for DE's contest...:P. Readem (talk *pvxcontribs ) 21:48, 30 July 2007 (CEST)
 * uh oh, the merge maniacs will not be happy. &mdash; RAWR! [[Image:Skasig.jpg|19px]] Skakid9090 21:49, 30 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Meh, I am too lazy to write it. So I'll just get rid of mine...however I will give you some gudder skillz ;) Readem (talk *pvxcontribs ) 21:50, 30 July 2007 (CEST)

Stolen from Skuld, and finished by mez :). Readem (talk *pvxcontribs ) 22:05, 30 July 2007 (CEST)
 * thx m8, added to variants. gonna move to 'testing' now &mdash; RAWR! [[Image:Skasig.jpg|19px]] Skakid9090 22:09, 30 July 2007 (CEST)
 * PiY FTL. run something else please. ZamaneeJinn 22:56, 30 July 2007 (CEST)
 * dId u hav tasted tha bild? &mdash; RAWR! [[Image:Skasig.jpg|19px]] Skakid9090
 * I've used piy several times before. you'd have to have amazing energy management to run it. ~ ZamaneeJinn 00:07, 31 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Well good thing he is a paragon then, huh? <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 00:09, 31 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Readem beat me to it, but Aggressive refrain + GftE is insanely amazing energy management. --<font color="Black">Edru viransu //<font color="Red">QQ about me 00:10, 31 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Sorry Edru :/. <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 01:34, 31 July 2007 (CEST)

you spam adren skills, so yu don't really need energy. with go for the eyes, in the 10 seconds you dont have -10 degen you can use aria of zeal once, and it synergizes the recharge of PiY!. Lyric of zeal is awesome energy management on monks, their free heal becomes energy. best of all, you can spam deep wound and not sacrifice 33% health &mdash; RAWR! <font color="#336666">Skakid9090  01:49, 31 July 2007 (CEST)

Err...skakid, might wanna mention the focus swap part of teh build. <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 01:51, 31 July 2007 (CEST)

Explanation of my rating
10 out of 20 seconds you have no energy. GFTE gives 5 energy, 10 seconds of energy regeneration give 6,6 energy. Now you have your 10 energy to use your shitty elite, that steals you 33 energy btw. There's place for aria if you can reload GFTE, but I dont see place for Vicious and vice versa. Just use a BiP Necromancer, he gives more energy and is more useful besides spamming GFTE, using Purge Sig and contributing with the occasional deep wound.Asdfg 03:22, 31 July 2007 (CEST)

Or you can simply focus swap my friend, making you lose very little energy, and allowing you to use other skills. <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 03:27, 31 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Should've looked at the equipment. Sorry.Asdfg 03:30, 31 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Hehe, np. I told Skakid to put that note in ages ago. (about 3 hours) <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 03:31, 31 July 2007 (CEST)


 * nah, i shouldve been more specific on equipment, the real prob with bips in gvg is that they get pressured, so when the monks need their energy most they cant get it. this thing is a high armor beast (96 armor) that still supplies a lot of energy. &mdash; RAWR! [[Image:Skasig.jpg|19px]] <font color="#336666">Skakid9090 03:57, 31 July 2007 (CEST)

Whacked Template code
The template code for this is only giving me 6 skills. AmIrite? -IdolOfInequity 01:58, 7 August 2007 (CEST)


 * I think some of the para skill codes have changed... [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] <font color=#6e8b3d>frvwfr2  (talk · contributions) 02:01, 7 August 2007 (CEST)

terribad for GvG
I rated this a 0-0-1. The entire concept is flawed. The only two skills on this bar I'd take into a match are Aggressive Refrain and GtfE - the rest are... bad skills.
 * The Power Is Yours
 * No comment necessary tbh, TPIY is a bad elite. Like... really, really bad.


 * Vicious Attack
 * Paragons cannot be relied upon to inflict deep wound during a team spike - if the melee character isn't able to do it, the paragon sure won't be. For general attack damage, take Spear of Lightning or something.


 * Arya/Lyric of Zeal
 * Completely unnecessary. Tell your monks to go back to RA until they can manage their energy. If your monks are running out of energy, you've got problems that wasting a slot on a paragon bip won't solve.


 * Purge Signet
 * Very meh. It's not a bad skill, but it doesn't really fit.

All in all... this paragon has *no use*. His spike is gimped (most paragon bars have two attack skills), he's got zero defense (DA, Stand Your Ground, Watch Yourself... anything!), and lastly, he has nothing to maintain Aggressive Refrain between skirmishes. How on earth is this "great?" - Auron 12:34, 12 August 2007 (CEST)

Through a systematic chain of focus swapping, the Paragon is able to TPY/Purge Multiple time, even when outside of the fight. In this way he may keep AR going. Purge is exceptionally useful on Paragons, as GftE is possibly the best steady energy management in the game. Running Vicious is standard when running GfTe, or at least in my experience, as DW>AP always (Pressure Wise). The zeals are mostly filler, as they can be replaced with Lightning and AoF, if one would so prefer. Though TPY may seem like a bad elite, so was both Glimmer and Panic originally. Finally, on the defensive note you mentioned, when running any sort of battery, Monks should be able to better protect your team (Kind of a duh statement, that I felt necessary to comment upon). If you feel so inclined to judge this build Auron, simply create [Cry]'s P/N BiP from their Paraspike (Before Cry started selling membership to all the nubs). Just some personal opinion here, but Purge is one of the best skills in the game. It isn't played much, as it actually reqs some skill to swap. Secondly, if you need a fucking para to spike with you (Like fag pnh), then get a damn frontline that can (How can I say this politely?), kill stuff. Also, get Lemming to register, as he too complained and I would like to see his argument as well. <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 19:07, 12 August 2007 (CEST)
 * I tend to agree with Readem. This build provides the equivalent of a permanent 3 energy regen to your monks, and a variable amount equal to around 2 pips to all other casters.  Through focus swapping and GftE, it manages its own energy fine.  The spike capacity, which i agree is minimal, is just a bonus.  Monks should know how to manage their energy, but having alot more isn't a bad thing.  I can respect poor votes on it, but a 0-0-1 is kinda overdoing it.  If nothing else, it's very innovative, and i wouldn't go as far as to say that it's useless.Bob fregman 19:20, 12 August 2007 (CEST)

Before this day, I never heard anyone say prenerf Energizing Finale was useless. :) --<font color="Black">Edru viransu //<font color="Red">QQ about me 19:52, 12 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Yeah... efinale was stupidly overpowered.
 * Anyway, I think ya'll are missing my third point, so I'll bold it here. Monks don't need bip unless they are bad at the game, thus, wasting your entire paragon bar on bipping the monks is folly. - Auron 04:23, 13 August 2007 (CEST)
 * This is true. Don't forget the rest of your team is getting excessive amounts of energy as well, with this build, though, so they can spam stuff like crazy without running into energy troubles. While they certainly should be doing fine energy-wise without your help, one couldn't possibly argue that they wouldn't perform better with more energy. Could maybe use more spear mastery, though. --<font color="Black">Edru viransu //<font color="Red">QQ about me 04:31, 13 August 2007 (CEST)
 * I can and will argue, however, that the team build would be more effective if this bar did something. Hexers with already built in energy management (gole, reapers, the entire inspiration magic line), monks with built-in energy management (gole, signets, sometimes ether sig or pdrain etc), warriors who don't need much energy to begin with - why are you wasting your time bipping them? Use a real bar, something that helps keep them alive (DA/stand your ground) or something that helps kill faster (shatterstorm, mirror). - Auron 04:36, 13 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Auron always wins... :/ --<font color="Black">Edru viransu //<font color="Red">QQ about me 04:38, 13 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Well, too bad hexers are dead beyond dead. Thank Izzy for that, I already did ;). Stand Your Ground iz just baed. Use Shields up or Watch Yourself for that (Only on SoR Paragons, or DA, and DA sucks pretty badly imo). This Build does do something, it Purges. Purge should be an elite, merely because it pwns nubs. Hopefully, you know Auron that this should not be run by Wars O.o...AoM or SP with the Lotus Nerf. Tbh, this is more effective than the P/N BiP Necro, as it was a commonly known flaw that the Para would BiP himself to death when shattered. People ran this, right around the time SoD Grasping became Meta ;). Finally, why not run this if you have filler? Expel is worthless when not in hex meta. Shatter was just gay (Not because it was good, but because it wasn't O.o). People only run DA because they are in "Aegis Shock" atm. Not because it is any good really. B-surge is dead for most guilds. There is no point running necro's anymore. you could always run another mesmer, so your Monk has to focus on 2 people getting ganked. Chuckers were popular like what...when cow (kgyu) was still r1 lol? Really, unless your team runs 2 para's like pnh, then you don't need SoL (Unless your team sucks so badly that they need the extra 60-70 damage in the spike lol. And if that is the case, just gank. You are not good enough to spike). I already suggested AoF for the zeals. Finally, your vote is no good Auron. Even though you say is is ineffective, how in hell is it not innovative? Really, ask your self that question. Like what, two guilds in the world have run it successfully lol. <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 19:17, 13 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Did you seriously say, in one post, that DA sucks, Stand Your Ground is bad, hexers aren't used, bsurges are dead, and that purge signet should be elite? Please tell me someone hacked your account and that you didn't actually post that. - Auron 08:29, 14 August 2007 (CEST)


 * The only statement there I agree with is that "Stand Your Ground!" is bad. "Watch Yourself!" is a better alternative because it allows for kiting and can be kept up forever.  —ǥrɩɳsɧƿoɲ 〚₮/ḉ〛 17:32, 14 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Stand Your Ground is good, because it means you can run command or /Me and get decent defensive support as well. A bit like how Weapon of Quickening sucks solely because it's in Communing. --<font color="Black">Edru viransu //<font color="Red">QQ about me 00:38, 15 August 2007 (CEST)
 * But with Tactics, you get "Shields Up!" as well.  —ǥrɩɳsɧƿoɲ 〚₮/ḉ〛 01:12, 15 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Stand used to be great at 5 e, now just meh since stacking limit. DA used to suck, but now ok since Aegis took a hit (Used to be one of the worst Para E, when A-bond and Incoming were god-mode. Can't deny that :P). Purge is still one of the best utilities, when used correctly (i <3 Purge); No one runs anything besides MoR and Migraine hex-wise, since RM/RH/PoF/Faint/Panic all took huge hits. You act as if I said something outrageous, when you just summed that BiP's are bad and that Shatter on a Paragon was ever good lol. "SU!" and Watch > Stand. Bsurge sucks on people who suck with bsurge. Thus, a great majority has just lost the ability to use it well (If they ever did lulz...). To Edru, why would you ever run it...there are such better utilities? If P/Me, go Expel with MoD. If P/Mo go Purge SoR. If P/N you can go BiP, or SoR with GoC. When P/W, SU+WY+SoR. There is simply no reason to run Stand lulz! When Holders were meta, that is when stand shined. Not anymore. <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 01:18, 15 August 2007 (CEST)
 * I'd run SYG! if I needed defense on a P/Me. --<font color="Black">Edru viransu //<font color="Red">QQ about me 01:23, 15 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Then you and Auron, are alone; for I, and many others would take SoR+SU+WY anyday of the week. The only time I would even consider taking Stand is for SF-spike/R-spike/and RI Spike. Auron may be relating back to his ttgr SF-way stuff :P. <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 01:26, 15 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Again, as I said, I'd run SYG if I needed defense and I needed to be P/Me. I would never run SYG! if I didn't need to be a P/Me with some defense. But, if I ever need some defense and some Mes removals, I'd run SYG! for defense. If you need defense and Mirror and Expel on a para and you can't fit them or similar skills anywhere else in your build, what would you run for defense? --<font color="Black">Edru viransu //<font color="Red">QQ about me 02:03, 15 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Do offensive Paragons need to be Defensive? Their slots are pretty full Edru, with AR/AoF/GftE/VA/SoL/SoR (Res) being standard. Besides, is being so defensive necessary, understanding that you are not only ranged but have 80 AR lol? Just my opinion tho, not forcing you to not run stand if you truly want to :P. Also, you are doing the Frv thing with your sign :P... <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 01:57, 15 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Sometimes, yes, they do need a little defense. It's rare, because generally, then, you'd be better off just running a P/W with some offense and WY + SU, but sometimes, SYG on a P/Me may be superior. I haven't really seen what's happened to hexes with the nerfs, so Expel might be less important, which means you could just run Danthem P/Me with Mirror instead, though --<font color="Black">Edru viransu //<font color="Red">QQ about me 02:03, 15 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Yeah from what I have seen (which is not much, so much PvEing to be done), everyone is replacing their mesmer with a Paragon. Usually with a P/W SoR, but my favorite Guild [BdV] is running SoR and Expel. Even vD is running SoR. <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 02:08, 15 August 2007 (CEST)
 * I'll point out how to use SYG for all those who don't know (i.e., Readem). When one paragon throws up DA, the other one throws up SYG; then vice versa.
 * Those paragons allow plenty of spike capability (two attack skills each), lots of defense (with two DA, you hardly need aegis on a monk), and of course, energy management for the paragon. That is, overall, the optimal use for a "defensive" paragon; an "offensive" one will usually have one defensive skill, sometimes (very rarely) he'll have none. However, notice that in both cases, the paragons actually do something. The defensive ones mitigate countless amounts of damage (through causing melee to miss and causing most spikes to fail (SYG + knockdown on spike target = target getting loads of armor for the spike)), the offensive ones mirror off aegises/bonds or clear a target for a spike - either way, they're a useful addition to the team, and combine great utility with powerful offense.
 * This build combines meh utility with even meh-er offense. - Auron 02:10, 15 August 2007 (CEST)
 * You have yet to value the power of a meh-er defense Auron! <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 06:08, 15 August 2007 (CEST)

auron saying that a build that supports monks sucks, then saying hexers rock is a paradox. GOOD monks, like you said, should need another character giving them energy. but they also shouldnt need saying builds are bad because theyre for ba monks is fucking stupid because this meta is for bad monks. ever since defensive meta came along monks got lazier because their job got easier. now everyone runs it and monks without all the defense collapse under pressure. &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Skakid9090. 06:13, 16 August 2007 (CEST)
 * 1) A b-surge to reduce melee pressure and
 * 2) A hexer to reduce melee pressure.
 * A B-Surge can shutdown numerous melee attackers for 10e, whereas a Monk would have to spend at least that much fixing the damage they would have dealt had they not been blinded. You can throw up a ward and reduce melee pressure on your entire back or midline for 10e, or you can let your Monks repair all the damage that would've gone through if not for the ward. That would certainly be more than 10e, but that doesn't mean you should devote a character slot to supplying your monk with the energy needed to patch up that damage. Similar logic applies to shutdown hexes. You just don't need a battery in GvG, and that's why no one brings one. I'd concede that that tag could rightfully be up if it ever got to the point where we would want GvG batteries, but not today. - [[Image:Kowal.jpg|15px]] <font face="dauphin" color="maroon">Krowman   06:29, 16 August 2007 (CEST)
 * To re-iterate his point... Ward vs Melee, bsurge, and shutdown hexes are energy efficient methods of damage mitigation. Those characters not only add defense, they add offense (tremendous degen through reapers/faint/pbond/phantasm/nightmare, spike damage with lightning orb, a free 100+ damage with bsurge on a frenzying war); all that stuff adds up. None of those are a waste of a slot in your GvG party because they do so much. - Auron 06:34, 16 August 2007 (CEST)
 * meh just ignore me im ranting &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Skakid9090. 06:34, 16 August 2007 (CEST)
 * So, you going to be bothered about the removal of that tag for now? If it's the voting you are concerned about, we can resubmit the build with a clean slate, or just remove the votes decrying its GvG effectiveness. - [[Image:Kowal.jpg|15px]] <font face="dauphin" color="maroon">Krowman   06:59, 16 August 2007 (CEST)
 * all i'm saying is the people that voted good think it's good for GvG so... &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Skakid9090. 07:03, 16 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Heh, it's pretty much Readem vs Auron (again ;)), Grinch, and Edru, so I'll go pester him. - [[Image:Kowal.jpg|15px]] <font face="dauphin" color="maroon">Krowman   07:13, 16 August 2007 (CEST)

this build...
is a perfect example of how flawed the vetting procedure is. i dunno if it's good or bad, because i don't play gw gvg anymore because of how rediculously boring it is compared to ~a year and a half ago. people seem to just be siding with their friends on the vote, theres 5-5-5s and 0-0-0s at the same time, nobody really votes fair and wiki vetting systems really can't work. bleh. &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Skakid9090. 05:45, 16 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Not all people are. This is definately ingenious though.  —ǥrɩɳsɧƿoɲ  〚 ₮ /ḉ/ Д 〛 08:10, 16 August 2007 (CEST)

GvG
That tag has got to come down. This build can be better than a Bipper, but no one uses a Bipper in GvG anyways. This isn't how Paras are used in GvG either. Basically, at this point in the game, every one plays so defensively, and Monks are balanced nicely, that it is no one needs to devote a character slot to a battery. Infinite energy would be nice, but it is bad for the same reasons too many attack skills on a Warrior is. - <font face="dauphin" color="maroon">Krowman    05:56, 16 August 2007 (CEST)
 * use this so your monks have energy so you dont have to waste 3 other chars (like most teams) on defensive stuff, hehe &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Skakid9090. 05:58, 16 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Point is, no one uses a battery anymore. This doesn't belong in the GvG cat; it's a battery. I'd defy any of those voters to point out a meta battery these days. Last one I recall was the pre-balance Energizing Finale para. - [[Image:Kowal.jpg|15px]] <font face="dauphin" color="maroon">Krowman   06:08, 16 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Categories are filled with builds that nobody uses for some of their categories. It could be used for gvg, the fact that meta doesn't usually(or ever) include them doesn't mean they couldn't be used.  Not opposing the removal of the tag, just pointing out.Bob fregman 07:01, 19 August 2007 (CEST)

TPIY
Alright, has anyone actually tested this? I fucked around with TPIY for 15 minutes. The problem is: Switching Weapons takes like 1 or 2 seconds. You use TPIY, wait, switch to High Energy Set to use TPIY again, because you haven't regained enough energy, and that is where it happens: TPIY actually drains into your High energy set during the Weapon Switch Delay, and during the 10 seconds after TPIY, you do not regain any energy in your hidden set. That leaves you with less energy everytime you use TPIY. After 3 uses, I wasnt able to keep TPIY running on recharge, I had to wait to regain enough energy. I'd say it's close to unplayable. Asdfg 03:23, 18 August 2007 (CEST)
 * If you think weapon switch takes too long, then activate the switch earlier, TPIY is a shout so it can be used at any time, you can pre switch if it takes too long for you. Were you using the GFtE at all to make up for the slight loss(if you switch properly)?  It's definatly not unplayable.Bob fregman 07:06, 19 August 2007 (CEST)
 * This (below) is [PAL]'s build, btw. This build definitely does work.

- <font face="dauphin" color="maroon">Krowman    07:22, 19 August 2007 (CEST)
 * I do not watch PAL, but they run Double Para's like PnH, no? Otherwise you should run GftE and AoF. Also, the Wild Para is almost always an add-on. <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 07:24, 19 August 2007 (CEST)
 * They run with lots of melee/para iirc. - [[Image:Kowal.jpg|15px]] <font face="dauphin" color="maroon">Krowman   07:29, 19 August 2007 (CEST)

...AB and CM?
Wtf? <font color=#6e8b3d>frvwfr2  (T/C/Sysop) 21:43, 17 September 2007 (CEST)

archive
it should be archived, not deleted >_> -- Infested <font color="#8B4513">Hydralisk ( Talk * Contributions ) 09:21, 16 September 2008 (EDT)