Archive talk:A/W Palm Strike Spiker

and BoS doesnt get full effect--75.94.77.148 04:16, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * ^ BoS only does +45 now, so imo you are better off with DB which deals +43@14 dagger mastery + 43 AoE damage + 2 second recharge so you can mini spike with Palm Strike -> Death Blossom ;o Brandnew.  04:22, 12 December 2008 (EST)

Where's the spike? Railin 13:56, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * i think it's somewhere in this build The one this build is trying to be.-- Ikimono I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 13:59, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * in other words, this is a dupe that doesn't do as much damage or spike.-- Ikimono I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 13:59, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * Inferior build is inferior and relies on Impale for deep wound. This is weak for spiking.-- Ikimono I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 04:15, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * But so that this doesn't have to be voted and what not...-- Ikimono I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 04:16, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * You fail so hard, Archive:A/D Grenth's Grasp Assassin it's a stronger version of an already great build... --F rosty 04:29, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * uh...no? extremely spammable 75 damage + Cripple that's far superior to Grenth's Grasp because it's not an enchantment, is an offhand, and recharges Faster, and allows for more versatile skills. Grenth's Grasp assassin's Died during this last update.-- Ikimono I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 04:31, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * YES. Ok, this is like an "updated" version of that, 8 second recharge spikes with more pressure. --F rosty 04:32, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * pretty much. and this build is a version of Archive:A/W Knocklock Palm Spiker without the big spike and with impale...but I'm reaaaaly tired of having other people make builds that are 1 skill different from the one that i put up 4 days before the update came out. And i didn't even know it was going to get buffed...so can we call it a day?-- Ikimono I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 04:36, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * All I am saying is a build that spikes every 15 seconds is much different from one that does it every 8... --F rosty 04:37, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * Actually...the one that I've been using spikes every 8 seconds...because it uses the same skills. Simply doesn't activate Death Blossom (which is in optionals) on every spike. just uses Palm Strike Horns, Spider, Palm Strike...-- Ikimono I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 04:42, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * the downtimes of the builds are the same for Deep Wound spikes...this just has DB on the mainbar.-- Ikimono I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 04:43, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * I have learnt that there is no point taking this convosation any further. --F rosty 04:47, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * good, i want to go to sleep...-- Ikimono I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 04:49, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Palm Strike is an Off-Hand, not a lead attack. All the Palm Strike builds here are wrong because they have no lead.
 * lol [[Image:Railin-WoH.jpg‎|19px]] Railin 11:12, 14 December 2008 (EST)

lulz  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ  08:42, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Death Blossom
you should be able to finish them off with palm strike after using blades of steel-- Christmas Relyk  14:32, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * DB gives the ability to PS > DB inbetween spikes.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 11:16, 14 December 2008 (EST)
 * And BoS only does +45 in this build so the added AoE is better than 4 damage. - Misery  Is  Friendly  [[image:Misery Dog obaby.gif|19px]] 11:20, 14 December 2008 (EST)

Blades of Steel counts itself as recharging, which makes it max out its damage with the 3+1 recharging skills at 14 dagger. +60. Siamesenick 00:22, 16 December 2008 (EST) Oh yeah, forgot bos sux when ur using palm strike-- Christmas Relyk  11:45, 17 December 2008 (EST)

Add GvG-tag?
Since this is one of those rare builds that actually found its way into GvG. The so called "Collapsing Spike" even has the tag and I can't see how this could be worse than that.--Saizer 12:22, 14 December 2008 (EST)


 * variant of this has been used in GvG, this is a fucking Cookie-Cutter build which kills unprep monks :> Massive  [[Image:Image-Massive Sig.jpg|19px]] 05:08, 15 December 2008 (EST)

More dmg
Why not drop Dagger Mastery a bit, maybe add a major rune, & spec points into Deadly Arts for Sig of Deadly Corruption? - insidious  420  10:50, 15 December 2008 (EST)
 * Because Assassins are fragile enough. Plus, you'd be lucky to even get to chain off all your attacks with all the dual-stanced monks running around these days. Do you really need less health while you're in cool-down? Honestly, Assassins have been banished from any kind of viable play since Isaiah (skills updater/nerfer) hates Assassins anyways, so... yea..... --Ulterion 17:37, 15 December 2008 (EST)
 * OK true, forget the rune. So why not this as a variant:

[build prof=A/W dag=10+1+1 cri=12+1 dead=8+1][Palm Strike][Trampling Ox][Falling Spider][Twisting Fangs][Dash][Resurrection Signet][Signet of Deadly Corruption][Flurry][/build]
 * Nothing above 12 is rly needed for Dagger, cuz BoS aint here.... - insidious  420  18:05, 15 December 2008 (EST)

cleanup, merge, whatever..
I don't really get the point of having two almost identical builds with this one beeing a little more flexible in terms of customization (optional skill) and the other one beeing basically a weaker variant? Imho: Thoughts?--Makku 04:37, 16 December 2008 (EST)
 * get Archive:A/W Knocklock Palm Spiker WELL'd (it's clearly inferior: double falling is a waste of a skill slot, there's no need for 5 attack skills if you have a 4s recharge 75dmg always hitting offhand on your bar)
 * slightly change Archive:A/W Palm Strike Spiker's main bar:
 * remove optional, add Horns of the Ox. Having dual KD is nice and allows some flexible chains: PS → Ox#1 → FS → Ox#2/TF → PS → TF/Ox#2.
 * maybe replace Flurry with optional and let the reader decide which IAS he wants to run, Flurry/Frenzy/Flail really depends on format and personal preference imho.
 * Well the other palm strike build its clearly inferior, thats like bringing a shock axe build but switching Executioners strike for agonizing chop, it works but not as well. Also added disrupting dagger to variants. 24.6.122.112 14:01, 20 December 2008 (EST)
 * Rofl, wow, this is now exactly what Archive:A/W Knocklock Palm Spiker started out with, just without dual fallings. and now that both builds have been changed around so much, now this build has become the build that Archive:A/W Knocklock Palm Spiker once was...Irony...-- Ikimono I know Paragons. Listen Padowan [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 17:16, 21 December 2008 (EST)

Why
Didn't we keep

as mainbar? 17:21, 21 December 2008 (EST)
 * Cause Twisting Fangs ownz, nobody uses DB and Impale. --<font color="Black">F rosty 17:22, 21 December 2008 (EST)
 * Its not meta obviously--[[Image:Relyk chtistmas2.jpg|20px]] Christmas Relyk  17:22, 21 December 2008 (EST)
 * PS~>DB spam in between. 17:23, 21 December 2008 (EST)
 * It's not worth it over another KD. --<font color="Black">F rosty 17:23, 21 December 2008 (EST)
 * I see no other KD mainbar. And if you mean HotO in vars, thats basically the Knocklock Palm Spiker we alrdy have. 17:25, 21 December 2008 (EST)
 * It should all be in variants though, no one runs dual falling unless on splits, most people actually use nine tail strike, so they can PS -> NTS. --<font color="Black">F rosty 17:29, 21 December 2008 (EST)
 * Meh, NTS has too long a recharge imho. But leaving DB and other shit as var is probably better. 17:50, 21 December 2008 (EST)
 * Tbh, I use Flail, Death Blossom and Impale. It's an equally strong spike and can dish out some pretty high DPS, too. ــмıкε  нaшк  11:46, 23 December 2008 (EST)
 * How much base damage do you lose from flurry? Is Frenzy better than flurry or is the reduced damage negligible enough? I think that given the fairly long cooldown of attack chain it'd be more important to get off as much damage in as little time as possible, thus, Frenzy comes to mind. Granted Sin's are more fragile than warriors with it, but with keen cancelling and even percieved pressure foresight I think it's doable to swap flurry for frenzy. Whatcha'll think? :o --Ulterion 17:40, 23 December 2008 (EST)
 * Sins should only frenzy in hb--[[Image:Relyk chtistmas2.jpg|20px]] Christmas Relyk  17:42, 23 December 2008 (EST)
 * I use Flail, tbh. After the first 4 auto-attacks, you're almost always in it. ــмıкε  нaшк  17:44, 23 December 2008 (EST)
 * Just use flurry tbh;s Flail makes you unable to IAS in downtime, because people are going to lolkite you then. Brandnew.  17:46, 23 December 2008 (EST)
 * thats why u have dash?--[[Image:Relyk chtistmas2.jpg|20px]] Christmas Relyk  17:48, 23 December 2008 (EST)
 * After which you have to recharge flail all over again, gg. Brandnew.  17:48, 23 December 2008 (EST)
 * You flail during the spike... ull have enuf adrenaline again. How do they kite when they're snared anyways?--[[Image:Relyk chtistmas2.jpg|20px]] Christmas Relyk  17:52, 23 December 2008 (EST)
 * Exactly. They move at -50%, you move at -33%. ــмıкε  нaшк  17:54, 23 December 2008 (EST)
 * So Relyk, you aren't going to use your IAS when you are not spiking..? Brandnew.  17:55, 23 December 2008 (EST)
 * They're dead by then :)--[[Image:Relyk chtistmas2.jpg|20px]] Christmas Relyk  17:55, 23 December 2008 (EST)
 * Dot dot dot. Brandnew.  17:57, 23 December 2008 (EST)
 * If equipped with flail, I'd only use it in three instances: Spiking, finishing off a target with 30% health or less or if I'm in demand of more energy (hence landing as many criticals as possible). --Ulterion 18:45, 23 December 2008 (EST)

^ Is the best bar, imo. Falling Spider means that you don't have to wait an extra 4 seconds for Falling Lotus Strike, so your chains are cleaner and can be used more often. Nine Tail Strike means more DPS (Death Blossom would be even more, but the unblockable Dual Attack is worth the loss of ~4 DPS). You'll probably have to use Zealous Daggers more often, though. ــмıкε нaшк  10:58, 24 December 2008 (EST)
 * DB is AoE and can be spammed more, nine tails sucks, having two palm strikes use DB on the alter to do ~175 armor ignoring AoE damage is hawt--<font color=#C68E17>Golden [[image:Goldenstar.JPG|19px]]<font color=#C68E17>Star 13:25, 25 December 2008 (EST)

Updated Main bar
Because Dual KD's are much more pressure's. <font color="Blue">Frosty po!  13:23, 25 December 2008 (EST)
 * TBH they're really not as good as palm strike->DB--<font color=#C68E17>Golden [[image:Goldenstar.JPG|19px]]<font color=#C68E17>Star 13:25, 25 December 2008 (EST)
 * Why the fuck do you need falling lotus??? oO --86.158.157.26 13:28, 25 December 2008 (EST)
 * if you're bad energy can be kind of rough, in my exp spider is better for poison but it doesn't really matter that much--<font color=#C68E17>Golden [[image:Goldenstar.JPG|19px]]<font color=#C68E17>Star 13:29, 25 December 2008 (EST)
 * Energy will always be rough, you're spamming skills on recharge to deal damage ^_^ &mdash; <font color="#CC0099">Skakid  Rally- kupo! [[Image:S9M.png]] 13:31, 25 December 2008 (EST)
 * I guess in HA specifically the Death Blossom AoE will help (especially) amd HotO won't trigger as much in HA but everywhere else the extra KD is gud. [[Image:Frostrage.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Frosty po!  13:32, 25 December 2008 (EST)
 * You won't have any problems if you stick in your Zealous set. ــмıкε  нaшк  13:38, 25 December 2008 (EST)

This bar is now basically exactly the same as Archive:A/W Knocklock Palm Spiker. I suggest leaving that as a knoclock bar and changing HotO to DB on this bar for a more DPS version--<font color=#C68E17>Golden <font color=#C68E17>Star 13:33, 25 December 2008 (EST)
 * Or we could just merg, they are affectivly the same, except one has an extra KD and falling skill whereas this has a more offensive Dual attack and an optional. [[Image:Frostrage.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Frosty po!  13:37, 25 December 2008 (EST)


 * This is a good way to go about it. &mdash; <font color="#CC0099">Skakid  Rally- kupo! [[Image:S9M.png]] 13:37, 25 December 2008 (EST)
 * Nice choice! Death Blossom is the way to go while the rest of the chain is recharging. This variant eliminates being totally useless during the downtime. --Phoenicia1337 07:12, 29 December 2008 (EST)

GvG Tag
Isn't this like, the core of sinsplit? Brandnew. 13:39, 25 December 2008 (EST)
 * The one with knocks is waaay better in GvG. &mdash; <font color="#CC0099">Skakid  Rally- kupo! [[Image:S9M.png]] 13:40, 25 December 2008 (EST)
 * Okay. Brandnew.  13:41, 25 December 2008 (EST)
 * This one is much more HA material than GvG.-- Ikimono <font color ="Teal">I know Paragons. Shut up and listen [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 19:55, 31 December 2008 (EST)
 * never mind, since it was changed, this is completely capable of doing every type of PvP.-- Ikimono <font color ="Teal">I know Paragons. Shut up and listen [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 01:39, 4 January 2009 (EST)

This is the proper Bar
just so you know the real bar which actual good HBer's use is this:

dash, frenzy, palm strike, Trampling ox, Falling Spider, Horns of the ox, Falling lotus, Twisting Fangs.

have that, it's far superior to the rubbish currently posted. Drowning Pigeon 10:42, 1 January 2009 (EST)
 * A/W Knocklock Palm Spiker God  box    11:15, 1 January 2009 (EST)
 * the current build is the one everyone runs, including myself.-- Ikimono <font color ="Teal">I know Paragons. Shut up and listen [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 01:37, 4 January 2009 (EST)

Strong Counter
I found out the other day that a decent mesmer can really fuck one of these guys over. Its funny, cuz mesmers usually pwn casters. Diversion on Palm Strike? lolwtfpwnt... Sig of Humil? lolwtfpwnt... I had one of these shitters camping me in HA. I diverted palm strike, NO COMBO...HAHAHA. I tanked dagger hits for 12 dmg while i pooped all over his casters. muhaha. 70.22.252.203 20:37, 7 January 2009 (EST)
 * Dshot, but then you could say that the same about a lot of frontliners, divert wounding strike = less pressure, divert primal rage = less pressure, generally diverting a key skill on any bar is a counter. [[Image:Frostrage.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> po!  20:38, 7 January 2009 (EST)
 * Hay kan u teach me hao to dshot PR plz. 67.234.6.254 23:38, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Diversioning a sins elite usually makes him useless--[[Image:Relyk chtistmas2.jpg|20px]] Christmas Relyk  20:57, 7 January 2009 (EST)
 * duh, but only an idiot sin doesnt know how to counter diversion. Alpha fireborn[[Image:Alpha Fireborn Cripshot.JPG|19px]] 21:56, 7 January 2009 (EST)
 * What bout anti-knockdowns? Once the sin loses the advantage of the monk being unable to heal himself this build is less useful
 * those skills you metion, yes diverting them reduces the pressure. But diverting Palm Strike makes him COMPLETELY useless. I emphasize COMPLETELY.  All he can do is lol wittin u wif daggers and body block... And also id like to add, Palm Strike is SPAMMED making diversion very easy to land.  Also when builds like this become mainstream meta (this is reallllly meta) a lot of noobs run it.  Sure they can get kills with the build, but they usually wont stop spamming PS no matter what happens.  They have no knowledge of counters, making this build very easy to destroy. 70.22.237.230 15:19, 9 January 2009 (EST)

Who didn't see that coming
58 damage and 4 seconds cripple @ 13 CS. <font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> po!  19:40, 8 January 2009 (EST)
 * ohnoes. --71.229 19:42, 8 January 2009 (EST)
 * How much of a difference does the nerf really make to builds like this, though? The damage reduction wasn't very big, and the cripple still outlasts the recharge and triggers skills no problem, so I don't think much has changed. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]]<font color="#237d00"> Ĵĩôřũĵĩ Đēŗāķō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  03:17, 9 January 2009 (EST)
 * It just makes the bar slightly less bullshit. No need for a revote, it will still see significant play. - Misery  Is  Friendly  [[image:Misery Dog obaby.gif|19px]] 03:23, 9 January 2009 (EST)
 * Someone Clueless: "So what's the reason Palm Strike is so overpowered?"
 * Someone Intelligent: "The recharge."
 * Izzy: "Ok, let's nerf everything else about it." Shard 03:59, 9 January 2009 (EST)
 * LOL awesome, & probably accurate, reenactment of the "balancing" process. My suggestion was to up recharge to 6 & drop cripple duration to 5 +/- a sec or 2.  Wonder why it's so hard for a.net to see that a 4 sec recharge, no req offhand is crazy OP. - [[Image:Ins420sig.png]] 420  12:33, 9 January 2009 (EST)
 * No, the major problem is that it causes cripple in a direct offhand attack. If Trampling Ox didn't exist, it wouldn't even be that good tbh, but PS->Trampling=lol.  12:45, 9 January 2009 (EST)
 * Then people would just use HotO and it would still be lolpressure tbh Frv. - Misery  Is  Friendly  [[image:Misery Dog obaby.gif|19px]] 12:47, 9 January 2009 (EST)
 * Well yeah, but not as lolOPed as it is now. Unconditional KD>No allies adjacent, and you can try to stay next to allies, but it would still be significantly less effective. And 12r on HotO...  12:50, 9 January 2009 (EST)
 * its the fact you can skip lead and off hand attacks to the best part of sins (dual attacks) and you can do it practically all the time :/ [[Image:Frostrage.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> po!  13:12, 9 January 2009 (EST)
 * Well, if you look at it from the standpoint of using Golden Pheonix + Wild Strike, that's the damage bonus that you would be getting from palm strike, and to make it elite, you reduce it to 1 skill and give it cripple.--66.192.104.13 14:40, 9 January 2009 (EST)
 * Your combo doesn't work. - Misery  Is  Friendly  [[image:Misery Dog obaby.gif|19px]] 14:44, 9 January 2009 (EST)
 * And it can be blocked, and is effected by anti-melee, and takes longer to achieve. [[Image:Frostrage.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> po!  14:53, 9 January 2009 (EST)
 * And two skill slots, with an enchantment in a third. - Misery  Is  Friendly  [[image:Misery Dog obaby.gif|19px]] 14:56, 9 January 2009 (EST)
 * Frosty and Misery deliver. [[Image:Frostrage.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> po!  14:58, 9 January 2009 (EST)
 * Oh Oh oh and no cripple, but misels, I think this guy was just saying what PS is merged from if you know what I mean ;o [[Image:Frostrage.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> po!  15:02, 9 January 2009 (EST)
 * I thought you went out? Oh fuck you and your iPhone... - Misery  Is  Friendly  [[image:Misery Dog obaby.gif|19px]] 15:08, 9 January 2009 (EST)

Better IMO, lemme know
Jonathan 07:19, 10 January 2009 (EST)
 * Blades of Steel only does +30-45 in that combo in a lot of cases. Death Blossom does +43 and adds AoE. Death Blossom is better in most cases, especially in HA. - Misery  Is  Friendly  [[image:Misery Dog obaby.gif|19px]] 08:01, 10 January 2009 (EST)
 * Wut? Palm Strike->Trampling Ox->Falling Lotus->Twisting Fangs->Palm Strike->Blades of Steel--<font color=#585858>Relyk <font color=#66CCFF>_||_ <font color=#333300> I hammers u! 04:59, 18 January 2009 (EST)
 * 80 AoE damage still makes it superior.-- Ikimono <font color ="Teal">Needs more Paragon [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png]] 15:13, 21 January 2009 (EST)

Ricky says: "Do let us make this particular skill, known as 'Blades of Steel', a variant to this splendid build!"  Ricky vantof  15:16, 21 January 2009 (EST)

Hammer Bash
Would own as a variant. Even if PS gets disabled, you can still do shit! 15:20, 21 January 2009 (EST)

I would change the bar to...
[build prof=a/w dagg=12+1+1 crit=12+1][palm strike][trampling ox][falling spider][critical strike][twisting fangs][flurry][optional][resurrection signet][/build] Can do a FULL spike every 8s, with DW on every other spike. 20:10, 21 January 2009 (EST)
 * I like urs better as well [[Image:Muffin.jpg|19px]]<font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  20:47, 21 January 2009 (EST)
 * Added under variants.  21:59, 21 January 2009 (EST)
 * I'd vote to mainbar that, as it's what I use in RA, & has the best compactness/e-management. AB is the only time I take Death Blossom & Falling Lotus. - [[Image:Ins420sig.png]] 420  10:48, 22 January 2009 (EST)
 * Not main bar, but it isn't a bad variant [[Image:Frostrage.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> po!  11:37, 22 January 2009 (EST)

the vid
is alright to link but kinda embarrassing. 1 single pure solo kill besides npc foes where you killed some noob using SoI and meteor shower. other is KD'ing on RoJ or something :< -- -Ch ao  s-   11:18, 27 January 2009 (EST)
 * Yes cause we need a video of a sin solo killing 3 people in a row to show how it works--Relyk 11:25, 27 January 2009 (EST)


 * bah. -- -Ch ao  s-  [[Image:TheDentist.jpg|19px]] 11:28, 27 January 2009 (EST)
 * I'm not going to watch the video, but Relyk, are you saying thats its hard to get 3 kills with a Sin in ab? --Dark0805 ( Rant /<font color=#ff11aa>Contributions ) 17:14, 3 February 2009 (EST)
 * He was being sarcastic (as to say getting 3 kills in AB is no big deal) [[Image:Frostrage.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> po!  17:38, 3 February 2009 (EST)
 * Ah k. --Dark0805 ( Rant /<font color=#ff11aa>Contributions ) 09:31, 4 February 2009 (EST)
 * I am srs [[Image:Relyk srs.gif|19px]]--Relyk 23:41, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

This Build
IMO, is what a ‘Sin build should look like. It still spikes harder than other professions, but can still pressure somewhat between spikes. It stays somewhat balanced through not outright killing someone and not pressuring as well as Wars and Dervs, and the fact it doesn’t have much room for utility. Hopefully, Anet will be reasonable and simply extend the recharge for the spike (possibly up the Horns skills’ recharges to 15s, and/or maybe Palm Strike to 5 or 6s). As an assassin, this is what I have been looking for all these years, and the only other build to come close to this was the AoD Shock ‘Sin. Honestly, I'd say that in most areas this is not completely broken and a tweak or two could make this one of the first truly balanced Assassin builds. What do you guys think? Jaigoda 14:17, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

If someone wanted to use Falling Spider instead of Falling Lotus Strike for hte poison what would be a good replacement skill in order to keep up energy or would energy be just as good with zealous daggers?
 * Zealous should be enough but if you don't want zealous, use either critical eye or Critical Strike in place of DB and spike every 8 seconds. [[Image:Zyke-Sig.png]] 00:54, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I threw in hammer bash in the optional slot for a free KD; epic weapon swapping is soemthin i enjoy.<font face="Lucida Handwriting" color="red">~Flesh Atrophy~ "I R MudKipZ"  18:24, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Overrated
This and all the palm->trampling based builds are overrated in my opinion. Easily countered by half decent monk and doesn't even need a special skill from X secondary. All you gotta do is observe the sin a little bit, and as soon as palm is on 3/4 (abouts) cast done, hit dismiss condition (or what ever cond removal you have) on the sins target and the chain is nothing. Oh and i talk as a Monk primary, not as a assasin. 84.251.199.244 20:48, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * well, obviously the overwhelming majority of GW players are not competent enough to do that so...u speak for 1.<font face="Lucida Handwriting" color="red">~Flesh Atrophy~ "I R MudKipZ" [[Image:own'd.jpg| 18px]] 20:53, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * They are barely good in arena's, that's true. They are somewhat worse now in non-arena's, that's true. They are all still pretty good though. Brandnew 20:54, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh yes, i was mainly speaking of about small scale pvp (RA/TA), forgot to mention that sorry. For CM/AB etc. where you fight dumb NPCs mostly i see nothing wrong with this build.84.251.199.244 20:55, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

nerfed
recharge increase <font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  02:07, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Still works. -- <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Frosty  <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Mc Admin  02:19, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL, move to good<font face="Lucida Handwriting" color="red">~Flesh Atrophy~ "I R MudKipZ" [[Image:own'd.jpg| 18px]] 02:30, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * votewipe? [[Image:Muffin.jpg|19px]]<font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  02:31, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh wait, this is the HA version, um, just leave it for now, see what happens. -- <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Frosty  <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Mc Admin  02:39, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * will propably fall out of the meta, but def. wait a couple of days and see.134.109.89.1 03:11, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed. 7 RECHARGE WTF? I kind of see Moebius coming back... --Darkshade504 05:15, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * People just wont run death blossom anymore. Instead people will probably start bringing utility in the slot, like song of concentration, disrupting dagger, and dash. Drahgal Meir 05:17, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Everyone will simply run Blades of Steel over death blossom or use the knocklock chain tbh.--PVX-Tyris 05:26, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Blades of steel is kind of bad synergy. Drahgal Meir 05:29, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Tyris has a point, Death Blossom does not work with this build anymore. The Offhand-Leadattack is Palm Strike, and this now has 7 seconds. So using Palm Strike after the initial KD/Twisting Fang chain while Trampling Ox recharges and using Death Blossom is not really possible anymore. It might still have a use in Aspenwood, but I would put Death Blossom under variants and rework the build. I guess most people will go for the longer Knocklock variant, which is a pity. This shorter variant had room for some utility skills. :( --Longasc 20:35, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * this build gave mock sins a cake walk because, "oh dash to ppl, cripple, and LOL on them." now for all the ppl who have hated this from the beginning (like myself) ,good sins, will actually use real builds.<font face="Lucida Handwriting" color="red">~Flesh Atrophy~ "I R MudKipZ" [[Image:own'd.jpg| 18px]] 21:23, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * What builds do real men and real sins use nowadays? How manly must I be to use them? SCNR. --Longasc 12:49, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Real men use honourble gvg balanced in pve! Brandnew 12:50, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Real men use 8 Bearded paragons, yelling at the tops of their lungs, killing off the monsters with bad breath and insulting comments about their mothers. Then they follow up to kick the monsters down a shaft after the monsters are disheartened.-- Ikimono "a rabid grizzly bear" [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png|24px]] 19:05, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Tbh there aren't that many good sin builds which aren't like this. Atm this is still seeing use (saw one in HoH earlier), though I daresay it'll become a bit less popular. 86.26.56.226 13:06, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It still has synergy with trampling, so it's not too shabby. It mainly hampered the frequency of dual-chaining a bit, but it's still viable. --BlazingBurdy 14:53, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It's pretty fun seeing these react. It's only added 3 seconds recharge and made so many lame sins QQing, lmao. Try some "skillful" builds like BB.--211.22.165.16 18:50, 20 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Means you can't PS between chains which makes people QQ, but yea, BB ownzzz -- <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Frosty  <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Mc Admin  19:26, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

BB's good vs newbs (only). Otherwise, it fails vs veteran players who see A/W charging up with spears and running to a target. Lamer are those that taunt PS users tbh. Nerfs only mean less variety and your taunts tell me that you weren't skilled enough to handle the PS pressure (i.e.: You're a newb/scrub). --BlazingBurdy 04:53, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Lol? wow you're terrible. Against Mo/W - Mo/A in RA/TA it doesn't work if the monk is good, in everything else it is still probably the best sin build ever created.-- Ikimono "a rabid grizzly bear" [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png|24px]] 05:25, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Long ago when the world was young, men were real men and 'sins were real 'sins. Pre-nerf PS was just an OP build people who aren't real 'sins use to make themselves feel that they are. 86.26.56.226 10:51, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Makes me almost miss telespike. When sins did what sins were meant to do.-- Ikimono "My beard is thick." [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png|24px]] 11:03, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * No, no one misses SP sins. Also, lolburdy. -- <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Frosty  <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Mc Admin  11:09, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Sins have never really done what sins were meant to do... People who want to be cool and wear black and scare people play sins. Real sins play mesmer. 86.26.56.226 13:17, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * 'Sins are meant to be stupidly powerful nerf magnets. Based on the number of nerfs they've gotten, I'd say they've achieved that goal. And so long as there is still at least one usable Assassin skill left in the game, they will continue to achieve that goal. --<font color="#237d00"> Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  14:32, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * 'real sins play mesmer' lol, i think ur tryin to say 'the 2 best classes in GW are sin and mesmer' :D<font face="Lucida Handwriting" color="red">~Flesh Atrophy~ "I R MudKipZ" [[Image:own'd.jpg| 18px]] 17:59, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * ranger is the best class--Relyk 09:18, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I second that for pvp [[Image:Muffin.jpg|19px]]<font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  00:19, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * No way monk ftw no healz ftl 64.25.151.89 05:57, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
 * 8 mesmers with diversion, backfire, blackout, empathy. gg, you win.-- Ikimono "My beard is thick." [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png|24px]] 20:54, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

7 sec recharge
any reason to use db over critical strike now? db every 8 seconds is pretty underwhelming imo--Relyk 23:58, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * AoE damage.--72.189.84.187 00:57, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Adjancent damage thats mediocre in tagged places [[Image:Muffin.jpg|19px]]<font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  01:01, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
 * IMO build should be Spike every 8 seconds, DW every other spike, super e-management. [[Image:Zyke-Sig.png]] 09:10, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

merge*
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:A/W_Knocklock_Palm_Spiker same shit.Wesoly 15:14, 26 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Wrong. This uses PS to spam dual attacks; it's not a chain. The linked build is one attack chain. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  19:07, 25 July 2009 (UTC)


 * skills 1-2-3-4 are the same, so is twisting fangs in both builds. and this one is also a chain, only with one k/d. in my opinion it should be core build with PS, flurry/frenzy, trampling ox, falling lotus strike and twisting fangs with 3x optional slot depending on what we want to achive.Wesoly 15:14, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
 * i've been saying make base templates for about 80% of the builds on here-this being one. so ur observation is not unheard of by any means. <font face="Old English Text MT" color="navy">Flesh Atrophy   [[Image:Epic_VQ.jpg‎ | 20px]] 03:40, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Why critical strike and not death blossom? :( --Carnivorous CupcakeCarnCupcake Muffin.jpg 10:22, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Read section above [[Image:Muffin.jpg|19px]]<font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  17:21, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

So it begins...
the death of palm strike! <font face="Old English Text MT" color="navy">Flesh Atrophy    17:01, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's going to die it's still quite viable; they just made other things more interesting.-- Ikimono "My beard is thick." [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png|24px]] 17:14, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Should be revoted on:
using this veriant. HotO instead of trampling because a good monk will see PS and immediately remove the crip to prevent your entire chain, and Bonetti's to prevent dshot on PS as well as mitigate melee pressure and fill your e-bar for the next spike. --BlazingBurdy 19:00, December 29, 2009 (UTC)
 * Variants don't need to be re-voted on. However, if you change the main build, then there needs to be a re-vote. <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">19:25, 29 December 2009
 * Indubidably, and that's why I proposed a "change" to the main build (for 4v4 only), because it's more secure. Crip can be removed too easily in 4v4 because there's not a whole lot of people to watch out for so their focus on you is essentially doubled, but the requirement for HotO can be more easily met in 4v4. Maybe vote on this variant specifically for RA? --BlazingBurdy 20:58, December 29, 2009 (UTC)
 * So as instead of using 5 energy to remove crippled, monks now need to stay close to someone else for 0 energy? <span style="border-right:dotted 2px #AAAAAA;border-left:dotted 2px #AAAAAA;font-family:serif;font-size:8pt;"> Thomas   So   Dutch  21:06, December 29, 2009 (UTC)

Starting to see play again
At least in HA, potential unarchive? --<font color="Black">Frosty  16:16, May 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * no.[[image:Unreal_sig_1.png‎ ]][[Image:Cute mc puppies.jpg|19px]] 05:53, May 23, 2010 (UTC)

Changed the build to a more effective knocklock version
As the only players left to kill are bots perhaps we may consider voting again on this build for the fun of it? Rickyf16aus (talk) 20:18, 14 December 2017 (UTC)