Build talk:Team - 7 Hero Paneptitude

FB as optional on the Panic, IMO. Otherwise, looks v nice. -- Jai .  -  13:25, February 7 2012 (UTC) . I assumed you were talking to me, as I had nothing to do with spirit rift being on the page I was somewhat confused. You're still retarded for thinking Wandering Eye prevents ineptitude from going off.  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  16:44, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Missing minions on the IV... Don't need IV if what you say about dual-inept is true. IV should be superfluous; just take Putrid Bile and maybe Putrid Explosion or Death Nova. Meat wall is always good. Soi Sticker 22:57, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Minions on IV is dumb. I think the PoD is sort of a wasted slot, better of making the elite optional.  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  23:48, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
 * @Soi, meatwall is a meatwall. Run MM over ST if you want, you're not going to run minions on IV. Putrid Explosion is viable over Deadly Swarm if you want it. IV is for cleanup; the hero slot is suppose to be superfluous.
 * @Rask, pretty much, that's why bip and crap is listed in variants. It's there for c+spacing.-- Relyk 23:52, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Mk.  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  00:54, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Spirit rift, u srs? Chieftain Alex  13:54, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I didn't make this build dude, relyk did. As far as I can see it's an optional anyways.  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  13:56, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
 * At what point did you decide my vote was aimed at you rask, rather than criticising the build? Chieftain Alex  15:05, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
 * You placed an indent in your previous comment "Spirit rift, u srs?"
 * Nice try. Foes under effects of both will trigger only WE -_- generally the shit in blocks of text at the top of talk pages relates to the build when people can't be assed creating new topic headers. Chieftain Alex  18:35, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
 * WE might block the central foe in the ball from attacking before Inept runs out, but it lasts 4 seconds and they'll immediately try to attack again after the interrupt. The rest of the ball will not be interrupted by WE and will get hit by Inept right away. -- Toraen   confer  19:06, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
 * ^ What Toraen said, sometimes I wonder if you're playing the same game as us.  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  20:29, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The case where stacking Illusion spells prevents one of them from triggering is pretty rare in HM. I wouldn't worry about it.-- Relyk 07:03, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

I remember a time when 6 optional skills was reason to trash a build because "so many optionals doesn't constitute a build". talk 22:42, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that was back when you could only take 3 heroes.  With Love~, ♣  RąʂKɭɘş  23:08, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

What's Up With The Shitty Votes

 * Hi, dual illusion good. Hexes will still trigger regardless if they stack. The duration is long enough, as Toraen said, to where they will trigger both WE and Inept. Don't see what the problem is because regardless, they rarely stack hexes. :> Vincent Evan [Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 01:56, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Because you can get more damage playing with a build like this (cspace) using esurge/panic dom builds due to better range, energy consumption and strength of spike. The defensive capabilities of two ineptitude mesmers can be duplicated with one skill r9 spec; Aegis. Enjoy. Soi Sticker 02:01, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Or, you know, use something that has a shit ton more utility than a monk with Aegis. :D Vincent Evan [Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 02:02, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Displacement/Enfeebling Blood. /discussion.Soi Sticker02:08, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Put your dicks away, you both look idiotic.  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  02:14, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you for mentioning those optimal choices. It was very evident that my post had no sort of reference to other possible builds. The point being though is that there seems to be an uninformed majority here who think this build is shit because it brings copy hexes. By the way, what's up with the moody behavior today? Vincent Evan [Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 02:12, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Soi's Vote
Since you copied alex's vote on the build I'll just copy what I said to him:

"Clumsiness was removed from the bars and the IV has fallback so you might want to revisit your vote. Oh yeah, and heroes don't stack same hexes. No clue where you got that in your head. On top of everything the recent update to hero AI made panic considerably better (without micro) and leech signet gets used on skills now, not just spells."  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  13:54, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll edit my vote later, just wanted to make my vote clear. imo you should only use one Inept, one SB and the Inept shouldn't have Clumsiness. Soi Sticker 13:56, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Heroes don't stack hexes yo. That means the second inept goes off it gets put back on. Your vote didn't even fit the build when you made it FYI. All the issues were changed before you voted.  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  13:58, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Reminder to change your vote. It does not apply to the current build. -- Toraen   confer  19:39, 27 February 2012 (UTC) Because dom totally pushes 142 solid armor ignoring damage. Ineptitude is literally the hardest hitting AoE in the game. The builds already vetted, I just wanted to remind you that you're wrong "again..."  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  22:03, 27 February 2012 (UTC) So one Dom mesmer doesn't provide any shutdown, but TWO just destroys everything? Your reasoning is horrible. Stop glaring at the illusion mesmers and ignoring the other 5 slots on the team."no greater AoE damage outside adjacent range" Really? So the FoC Spiker and the Dom mesmer provide no AoE damage at all. Again you're not looking at the other possible hero setups. "It's not a spike because it's reactive." 700+ AoE damage in 4 seconds is a motherfucking spike. Being Reactive has nothing to do with "spiking". Auto attacks are a given in npc AI, period. There is no "chance" of them not attacking. The spike happens, all the time, everytime. "Stop making drama and be happy with the rating it has now." If you would actually provide reasoning that made sense and wasn't full of half truths and poor judgement then I could care less if you 0-0'd it. The problem isn't the rating, the issue is your reasoning.  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  23:46, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Literally just changed it. Soi Sticker 19:40, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * "dom has more powerful and cheaper skills."
 * Keep telling yourself that. And who are you quoting saying again? I think you meant to use italics. Soi Sticker 22:05, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * keep telling himself.. what exactly? Ineptitude's only near competition is Wandering Eye, a skill that beats out E-Surge in both damage and not being a waste of an elite skill. If you can list a single dom skill that's as effective as either Inep or WE in PvE, I'd be impressed. Danny 22:23, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * He must be a 1337 haxor, with BAMF! on all his hero bars.  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  22:43, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I've said it before, but you seem to think you're right; all you get is a tiny amount more adjacent damage. There's no shutdown and no greater AoE damage outside adjacent range. It's not a spike because it's reactive. Stop making drama and be happy with the rating it has now. Soi Sticker 23:08, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * "There's no shutdown"
 * Honestly, I would 5-5 it if you could maths. Everything you've said has been very unconvincing with my own experience with inept bars. Maybe I just clear mobs faster, but my Inept heroes are always riding the blue bar, and it just slows me down. Soi Sticker 00:39, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The faster you kill enemies, the less your heroes should ride blue bar. Drain delusions is great at those times.-- Relyk 00:50, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Depends how spaced out the mobs are. Soi Sticker 03:58, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * You can bip like a shitter. They need to update clumsiness to avoid spamming on recharge and prioritize groups-- Relyk 04:04, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * ^the big issue. But I also hate BiP because of the 33% sac, and I can only imagine how badly heroes use it, considering how bad they do everything else now. I'd put it on a Minion Bomber if I were to have it, though. Soi Sticker 04:08, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Clumsiness on an ineptitude bar. Lawl  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  With Love~  05:10, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Without it, your damage doesn't exceed a Dom bar. Lawl. Soi Sticker 05:17, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * 320 damage on inep with Ineptitude + Wandering Eye + Signet of Clumsiness (This is ignoring Accumulated pain since it's not AoE). 315 on the Esurge bar with Esurge + Mistrust + CoF + Unnatural hitting it's conditional AoE effect.So inept does more damage with less slots wasted. 15 Energy for ineptitude to do it's chain, Esurge requires 25 energy. Problem?  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  With Love~  07:50, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Apart from Dom deals 200+ more damage in the area, whilst shutting down casters. The shutdown is key, but damage is nice too, c?Soi Sticker 08:21, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * If you need your caster shutdown so bad, then change the inept bar to put CoF with 4 att spec in it, because you got free slots anyway. Forget about mistrust cuz that's put on flare usually anyway. (or doesn't go off due to it being cast on a melee/monk/noncastingcaster) 82.95.65.117 09:33, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * "I'm lazy and/or can't ball." Isn't valid reasoning yo. Getting enemies adjacent is child's play in general pve. Try doing it in DoA.  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  With Love~  09:49, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Minority area=not changing my vote. This is the end of the discussion, Rask, since you don't want to be maths. Soi Sticker 11:50, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Moved the conversation since toraen wanted it discussed on the builds talk.  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  With Love~  12:00, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Chieftain Alex's Vote
Do you have anything to add to this discussion? Your ban occurred in the middle of it and I'd like to know if you've changed your mind. -- Toraen   confer  02:24, 27 February 2012 (UTC) I fucking lol'd at this. I know it is probably out of line for me to say this, because it may seem like I'm more so attacking you, but bare with me. I say this as a warning, because while you have been acting like a complete moron (from the sense of how you post), I feel as if you deserve equal justice on this site such as me, Relyk, Rask, or Jai. So, one second thought, I'm doing this out of respect. There is no need to thank me though. Anyways, your vote is, quite frankly, fucking retarded. There is a difference between "trash" and "good." While I only quoted the most illogical part of your vote, you note that this team cannot carry utility like "Fall Back!" when it is already inside the necro build. Odds are, due to your bias, you probably believe that Energy Surge mesmers should be the one's carrying it. I'll give you that. It should occur to you though, that Necros have the must persistent fucking source of energy management: soul reaping. At the rate where you kill enemies in this team (which is must faster than ESurge too, by the way) you will be better off to carry to paragon utility on the fucking necromancer which thus allows you more freedom for other sources of viable utility such as weakness, cracked armor, frag, or frustration. This in itself creates an aspect of innovation from Rask. By compressing utility that you and some others certainly religiously believe otherwise, this build creates a sharper edge than what you normally see in PvE. I'm not going to bother getting into the Dom vs Illu because as it stands, it's basically boils down to pepsi vs coca-cola. They're both fucking great in their own taste, but just because you prefer one other, doesn't mean you should trash the alternative. Ineptway is strong and your bureaucratic, fuckry-esque vote shows that you refuse to accept what has been discussed on the talk page and what the current team set up is. You go on to further mock what has been discussed by associating an uninformed opinion which is evident through the usage of ceding ground and claiming that it Illu has "practically the same damage as Energy Surge." This itself is self-defeating and, once again, shows you refuse to give this build true justice. It may be due to childish reasons such as having a negative bias towards Rask or maybe you just flat out cannot follow discussions. I implore you to review the build, discussions, and real votes towards this build in order for you to reflect or more balanced vote, because the way it stands, you have this written illu bars as a comparative to Energy Surge yet give it a trash rating vs this, this (where there is a panic dom hero, but quote: "Mesmers: damage is strong...", this, [http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Team_-_7_Hero_Surgeway (where here you also said in your vote "Energy surge is awesome :<...." ]. I cannot really understand why you would go to great lengths as you have to justify your shitty vote when you have yet to confront those who came to you to do so. I couldn't even bullshit this much, so, while I'm writing this hoping to you realize where you are wrong, I can't help but feel in awe at your stubborn behavior. Vincent Evan [Air Henchman]   23:49, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't run that build just because its plain inferior to the shutdown you'd get from two domination esurge mesmers. I don't really see the point in having two mesmer teams vetted when one is the superior choice (basically similar damage, just esurge is cheaper and so you can bring more support shouts like fall back.. which are more frequently more difficult to fit tightly populated other hero bars. If I could think of a legitimate reason to WELL it, I would have done so. I'm staying over here in the safe zone away from that talk page though.
 * Also @ the AP mesmer, rask's vote is thinly disguised. You'd delegate the Inept + Panic to heroes because they're more skillful at applying them than the average human. Chieftain Qwax  16:04, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Your vote as it stands though is incorrect, since it mentions hex stacking and that has been addressed. @AP Mesmer: I'm just not worrying about votes on that until discussion is done and it's ready for testing again. It'll probably be wiped (or at least have non-applicable votes removed) when moving back to testing. -- Toraen   confer  19:35, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure Panic also interrupts before the clumsiness/ineptitude hits on larger mobs? (thus wasting it..) Chieftain Alex  21:34, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Panic is useful on off-damage so I left it as an optional, I also listed E-Surge for supporting damage and Hex Eater Vortex for more melee damage/support. You're really grasping at straws here dude, but I'm patient enough to put up with it.  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  21:55, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Don't rage at me bro. Still 3.2 points higher than you voted on the AP bar. Chieftain Alex  22:18, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think the text I typed conveyed an angry tone, so my apologies brother. However, now you're implying you simply trash voted it because of my vote on the AP Bar. As far as I can tell those two builds are completely unrelated. To be honest, you're running out of reasons to trash the build and moving into murky waters. I mean come on, really? I don't care if this is alex or minion or even herpderp. I expect a logical debate when it comes to a build, not childish "umad" retorts. When all is said and done I'm completely powerless, so I'm going to eject myself from this conversation and move on to something productive. Take care.  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  22:56, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * That would be tough for me to be voting in vengeance given I voted on that a good week before you voted on AP mesmer. Chieftain Alex  23:05, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * "Inferior to Energy Surge mesmers because for practically the same damage..."

I'm curious as to what utility skills you'd bring on the mesmers. As of now, you have dual Ineptitude, of which each deal 1.5x the damage of ESurge (so, in terms of single-target damage, it's like having a 3rd ESurge). The bars as they are are fully specced into strong damage skills, which is no utility loss at all, considering that you already have 1) enchantment removal, 2) cracked armor, 3) weakness, 4) blind, 5) hard res, 6) a dedicated ST rit 7) huge shutdown 8) FB and shiz. By now, you really just wanna pump as much damage as you can get out of your mesmers anyways. Thus, would you like to elaborate on what actually the build is lacking, seeing as how I do not see it the way that illusion deals less damage (in fact, it deals considerable more, only in a smaller area, which is in no way a bad tradeoff, considering the casts/recharges on mesmers with Fast Castics spec), has energy problems, or loses out in utility any more than the domination mesmer you're arguing for. If you simply do not like the build, that's fine with me, neither do I (and I haven't voted on it), but I see no fault in it nevertheless. If you don't want to have anything to do with the build getting into great, just remove your vote and find yourself in a bitching-free Funny Farm. -- DANDY ^_^ -- 23:25, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Not trying to mix in but just giving a word of advice, swallow your pride and say that you were wrong before PvX drama will occur and bans will fly all around the place.-- GWPirate 关 01:25, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Because voting according to how a user feels about the build is forbidden on pvx :/ Thanks for the succinct comment though. -- <font face="Calibri" color=black>Chieftain Alex 01:29, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * See, that's what wrong. You vote according to feeling. Emotions have led you astray many times before. It creates spite and pity. Reasoning is supreme which reflects when you correctly vote. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 01:32, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * No, thats just the opinion of someone under the boot. <font face="Calibri" color=black>Chieftain Alex  01:42, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't understand what you mean when you said "under the boot," Alex. Please enlighten me. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 22:23, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Welcome, everyone, to the Eurovision Song Contest! Oh wait... It's PvX. And you guys are all the Asian countries!Soi Sticker 01:46, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Still waiting for Alex to reply in a constructive, thought out manner. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 20:58, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Atleast you got the asian part correct.  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  With Love~  02:33, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

voting
OK. The votes on here are generally questionable, however i've been rather lenient. Rawr's was removed for general trolling, and Alex's was because I'd he complains about not being able to take "fall back" when you can just spec para secondary (at a glance you're not locked to a secondary so it's not exactly an issue...). Jai's vote also just had no reasoning to it.

Everyone else's vote, while I think they could use some work/expansion on their points, I decided were sufficient enough. Now when you guys come to vote again:
 * Make sure you give reasons. Actual reasons that pertain to why you think/feel/know this build should get the score you give it.
 * Make sure said reasons are consistent, don't say it has awesome AoE damage and then your next point is it has crappy AoE...
 * Make sure you get your facts straight, don't go talking about a warrior main if you're point/vote is about a Mesmer main...(generaly).

Finally, stop being stubborn. All of you. Someone disagreeing with you isn't the end of the world, everyone's entitled to their opinion, and voting is incredibly subjective (somewhat strangely). If someone points out a flaw/mistake in one of your arguments just say "oops, my bad" and amend it instead of sticking to your guns. IF you're adamant about a point, back it up with facts and numbers. Guild Wars boils down to numbers. You can work out all the different combinations and skills etc. and find the most effective anything you want, so if you can back your point up with numbers, you're golden.

tl;dr Vote correctly, stop causing drama. All of you. <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  00:03, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not being stubborn; I was waiting for someone to explain properly their build instead of trolling. It's all fine. Soi Sticker 07:44, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Clumsiness
I'm leaving it on the bar. For all intents and purpose, it's better to have people run it and give them the option not to than to give people the option to use it in the first place. Add notes and the behavior of clumsiness and reasons why you would drop it and let the player decide. If people want to run dual illusion for whatever reason, they may use PI or shared burden. So whatever your misgivings are for Clumsiness, put that information in usage, variants, notes, or your rating and discuss it on the talk page. Putting it on the mainbar does not make it absolutely mandatory to use either.-- Relyk 08:12, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Then only bring it on one bar.  With Love~, ♣  RąʂKɭɘş  08:44, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

not maked the sense

 * 1) Arcane Conundrum & Frustration tend to make casters cast through the 4s, wasting a lot of nukes
 * 2) Chaos Storm: people don't use 10s scatterstorms for a reason, and armor-ignoring dmg is not a reason to scatter mobs out of all the adjacent nukes' range
 * 3) Hex Eater Vortex is just an elite Shatter/Smite Hex. which leads to...
 * 4) the current IV hero could be replaced by so many better things. just fix IV on the resto and trade "command support" for smiter or rit hero when not using ST. don't be scared of making this look like 7hps
 * 5) hmm EoE on hero &#9823;Fianchetto [[Image:Mending.jpg|19px|link=User_talk:Fianchetto]] 21:12, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
 * No, that's why you have Panic. Enemies have reduced cast time in HM anyways.
 * Chaos Storm isn't mainbarred. It's niche use, put it in variants if you want to make a shit about it.
 * HEV should be in variants or removed.
 * Nothing you suggested is better. IV on a healer isn't a replacement for IV on a dedicated bar. Smiter is bad and you don't put command on a rit (i.e. SoGM) for obvious reasons.
 * -- Relyk 21:35, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
 * 1)it's a bigger problem if running Esurge. more often than not, HM casters keep casting after getting rupted. and double casting time is a pretty significant difference regardless of HM buffs. so some of this team's anti-caster can interfere with its nukes
 * 2)niche like NM
 * 3)done
 * 4)i'm not sure you understood. we're not replacing the Deathly Swarm spammer for IV resto; the resto is already there (currently without IV). "FB!" and "SYG!" can easily go on the smiter/SoGM (or whatever the replacement hero is), ST, or SoS. did you just say smiters are bad?
 * 5)ty &#9823;Fianchetto [[Image:Mending.jpg|19px|link=User_talk:Fianchetto]] 22:34, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
 * You aren't running Esurge. And no they don't, casters immediately autoattack after they get interrupting. If they don't they simply get interrupting again. If you didn't notice this, you need to play PvE more.
 * Niche as in people use it if they find it effective. Again, it's optional, there's no issue there.
 * I completely understood you, you didn't understand me. Running IV on a healer isn't the same as running IV on a dedicated hero. Smiter implies a RoJ monk, if you want RoJ for your melee, you are not going to use this setup. You use a team build with RoJ in it. You do not run command on SoGM, the hero cannot afford it and it's stupid. I knowI don't have to explain ST. SoS is your healer, if you want to drop healing spec, it would be to run SoH.
 * You may want to try EoE before making yourself like like an idiot.
 * -- Relyk 21:35, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) then why is elite optional and Esurge listed first? or are you saying we should remove Esurge completely (which i'd support)? and no, they don't always.
 * 2) "oh well it's just under optionals so it doesn't matter, everything's cool and i never admit i'm wrong"
 * 4) i wasn't even saying they're the same. i'm saying (repeatedly) that IV resto is better. if you're melee, you'll want RoJ/SoH. (you could just clarify that this is for caster players only, if that's your deal?) and i won't bore you with the math, but SoGM+"FB!" is perfectly fine. the ST or mm can take the other "FB!" (also handy on mm to help with Death Nova lag).
 * 5) come on. are you really saying that EoE with no Summon Spirits (and 2x "FB!" i might add) makes a huge deal? &#9823;Fianchetto [[Image:Mending.jpg|19px|link=User_talk:Fianchetto]] 00:45, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
 * You're overexaggerating wandering/ineptitude not triggering. If you see it as problem, you use Panic. If you still think it's a problem, simply don't Arcane Conundrum. I'm done with Chaos Storm as I said put it in variants if you're going to make a shit about it. You have lower spec IV on a healer whose resources are committed to healing, the only advantage is build compression, which isn't needed in this setup. You could run IV on the healer in addition if you consider it a possibility here, that's something to debate. I don't see what advantages gain from dropping IV support. I'm talking about energy while using FB and SYG, which is what you were arguing. Using just FB/never surrender is perfectly acceptable, that wasn't what was being contested.-- Relyk 01:07, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
 * how lower spec IV? soul=11+1+1 resto=12 curse=6+1 (or 14 12 4) with Weaken Armor and Enfeebling Blood. of course it's not healing 24/7, AI casts IV once on each foe, and SoLS offers ridiculous resources (am i explaining why IV/discord resto has always worked?). i'm can't support double IV just because most people won't bother forcing it all the time.
 * oh, and i totally forgot we could just do this, like in Surgeway
 * how lower spec IV? soul=11+1+1 resto=12 curse=6+1 (or 14 12 4) with Weaken Armor and Enfeebling Blood. of course it's not healing 24/7, AI casts IV once on each foe, and SoLS offers ridiculous resources (am i explaining why IV/discord resto has always worked?). i'm can't support double IV just because most people won't bother forcing it all the time.
 * oh, and i totally forgot we could just do this, like in Surgeway

[build prof=me/any illusion=12+1+3 fast=8+1 ins=8+1 comma=7][ineptitude][wandering eye][clumsiness][signet of clumsiness][accumulated pain][power drain][Leech Signet]["Fall Back!"][/build]
 * Accumulated Pain is questionable (best left open) but that takes care of command support for you. it's not about team compression, it's simply because that hero is unneeded here. and with so much perma-blind, we could even free up Displacement for more support if necessary. &#9823;Fianchetto [[Image:Mending.jpg|19px|link=User_talk:Fianchetto]] 01:57, 1 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Fianchetto, I've been pretty rude to you in the past, but when you do stuff like this it makes me feel justified. EoE on a hero, seriously? Are you unaware of micro? Do you know how powerful EoE is on spike builds such as this one? Chaos Storm won't cause scatter if the mob dies in 5 seconds, HEV is an excellent choice for melee players in hex heavy areas, and is currently listed as an optional, not mainbarred. As it is, this build is setup for spiking, not c-spacing. Keep that in mind next time you find something wrong with it.  With Love~, ♣  RąʂKɭɘş  22:07, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
 * yes ma'am, feel free to justify yourself all you want. As for EoE, are you unaware that the 60r and no Summon Spirits makes it marginally useful? i suppose it might be (somewhat) worth taking together with Draw Spirit if you like to micro a lot. if you're superamazingtastic and can regularly kill mobs in 5s, why take a long, drawn-out 10s nuke (instead of, say, RoJ)? if you can't kill in 5s, the rest of the nuke is simple wasted, and so are all your other adjacent-range skills. please think. HEV is just Shatter/Smite Hex in an elite slot. if you're melee, the team needs RoJ/SoH anyway. your "arguments" failed to convince me, and rudeness had nothing to do with it btw. &#9823;Fianchetto [[Image:Mending.jpg|19px|link=User_talk:Fianchetto]] 22:34, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
 * EoE is used on large extended pulls, you focus offdamage on mobs outside of the ball so when your heroes spike EoE wipes out the leftovers. It's not used on every spike, hell it's not used on most spikes, but the trouble it saves is astounding when used properly, as for HEV I'm not going to defend it anymore because I cba to use it either, but smite monks are for shitters. If you want to run RoJ then take RoJway not ineptway.  With Love~, ♣  RąʂKɭɘş  01:12, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Just put Shatter Hex on the dom mes. 4s recharge hex removal ftw. I believe Expel Hexes is 3s recharge too... But no damage+Elite.Soi Sticker 03:14, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Of course. rask is pointing out you can use it if you try really hard to make it work-- Relyk 03:24, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
 * EA Fire Nuker? <font color="#62686C">Sjan <font color="#266592">talk  10:57, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Mo/P Shout Bomber.  With Love~, ♣  RąʂKɭɘş  11:03, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
 * or dagger hero &#9823;Fianchetto [[Image:Mending.jpg|19px|link=User_talk:Fianchetto]] 17:51, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Merge with Paneptitude?
The teams share very similar features (same Dom + 2x inept midline, N/Rt + SoS + ST). Paneptitude is designed for a melee player, but it would be easy to list a caster variant by changing one/two bars. It kind of seems like Paneptitude is an updated version of this comp, so I don't see the benefit in keeping both when they could occupy the same page. --Xanshiz (talk) 20:44, 20 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I have to admit that I'd been unaware of this page when I added paneptitude back then and agree that there's bad redundancy right now. I thought about tagging this one for an archival. About the caster version: I saved a draft over here but then didn't get to test it with player builds other than ritualist and (panic) mesmer. I don't know whether the focus on dealing damage with frustration by making extra use of all the interruptions of the midline + dazed is worth pursuing after all. There are a couple of different things to test.

--Krschkr (talk) 00:36, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Dual mercenary minionless: Replace both death magic necromancers with energy surge heroes. Bring one FB on the communing prot.
 * Solo mercenary minions: Condense dual IMS on one bone fiend MM, add one energy surge hero.
 * Non-mercenary solution: Keep as is but without frustration.
 * Non-mercenary solution for cowards: Dual IMS MM + third backline character of choice.
 * Feel free to share your thoughts about this. There's such a pile of things to test that doing all of that will consume quite some time! --Krschkr (talk) 01:05, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
 * My first thought would be swap the SoS on paneptitude with a dual IMS bone fiend MM. In other words, "Non-mercenary solution for cowards" (after all, this is intended to be the most defensive of the 7 hero compositions, right?). Alternatively, the SoS Smiter could be replaced with an SoS Resto and the N/Mo could be replaced with a dual IMS bone fiend MM. Regardless, this page should probably be archived. --Xanshiz (talk) 01:19, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Tagged it for archival, let's give people a couple more days to chime in if they like. We can keep discussing paneptitude on the talk page of the team that'll stay. --Krschkr (talk) 21:41, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
 * this looks like a great candidate for a merge. Nearly identical build (2x ill, 1 dom, ST, BiP, channeling, and #7 is a float [MM vs IV vs NMo]). There’s already 13ish votes on this and imo they should be transferred.  Juniper real (talk) 22:13, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Oh, right. I already forgot about the merge template. Thanks for the reminder. --Krschkr (talk) 23:46, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Unless there is any disagreement, I think the merge should be done. --Xanshiz (talk) 23:45, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
 * There is none, I'll take care of it when I have the opportunity. --Krschkr (talk) 18:15, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 * If you (Xanshiz) wish to update your rating with the text from the other page: "I've experimented with the dual ineptitude setup, but I found it inferior to domination based midlines due to the reduced damage of illusion mesmers compared to energy surge mesmers. The main reason to run inept is for AoE blind, and returns are diminished when running two."
 * Merge performed, keeping the ratings from the ineptway page and the content of the newer paneptitude one. Deleted page's talk content below. This way we only lose one 5/5 rating from the deleted page and the edit history. If anyone ever needs it, let me know and I'll dig it up. --Krschkr (talk) 00:48, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Meta tag
I'd like to be brave and give this a meta tag. It should still be pretty popular, e.g. because of Barath's build presentation few years ago. Does anyone agree/disagree? --Krschkr (talk) 20:13, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I still cannot rate builds, but i gave it to so many people over the years and met others using it so that I'd say it is de-facto meta (and not because i developed it with help of Wartower and GWCom... :D) --Smiley (talk) 20:25, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Isn’t this just a copy of 7 hero bip melee support? I don’t think inept x2 is meta and that lingering curse bar and tease bar are 100% not meta. LifeGuardian (talk) 21:12, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * There's no tease bar and this isn't a copy of that odd build. This build is from 2011/2012, before the build decay occurred. --Krschkr (talk) 21:14, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Caught me in an edit conflict, meant expel hexes. What do you mean build decay? LifeGuardian (talk) 21:16, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Pretty sure the "7 hero bip abomination" is just a copy of what we developed back then... Expel Hexes can be tracked down to my Wartower discussions because i added it back then. --Smiley (talk) 21:17, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * The build decay: When people started to think that (roj) monks, sogm rits and minion masters were great builds to run in any team. --Krschkr (talk) 21:18, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Not to mention the 7h-Discord ideas... dark times. --Smiley (talk) 21:25, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Are the skill choices on the bip page perfect? No. Is it still essentially the same build? Yes. And just because someone posted an expel hexes build somewhere by no means makes it meta. It’s super niche at best. If you want to update the other page go ahead, but this page should not exist while that one does. LifeGuardian (talk) 21:33, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

No, a lot of the skill choices are indeed bad and it baffles me how people even did vote for it as "great working". Also, i didn't just "add a skill" - i did, in fact, develop the origin build. --Smiley (talk) 21:39, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * ”I put a Mesmer elite on a generic Resto bar. I was the first one to ever think to do this”. Ok. LifeGuardian (talk) 21:56, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Team. Build. --Smiley (talk) 23:36, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

After all those discussions about this build, I still have no idea why you'd run 2x Ineptitude. 1x Inept already the melee hate, if you want damage then ESurge is just plain better. If your concern is about safety then simply run 2x Panic or 1x Panic 1x PI, the biggest threat is caster foes anyway. I also don't get why you still run 2x Energy skills when you have a BiP for energy. You guys hate on the Melee/Caster BiP pages, but what you suggest here is just plain worse. A lot of questionable skill & optional skill choices, questionable weapon choices. Not having shouts to move around (which is a BIG timesaver in general PvE, having that 1/2 sec less CD on your spells doesn't come close to making up for the time you waste running around), not having weakness & cracked armor. Instead of the AotL (reliance on corpses is bad somehow), you suggest to use either mercs or just plain worse heroes like a Emo, double BiP (okay I can see the point but this is just overkill if you also have energy management skills), and those horrible shout necros (how can you even suggest those?). Suggesting to use cons (for the lack of Fall Back), merc heroes (because that aotl is so bad), suggesting plain worse builds, and leaving so many optionals makes me feel like you completely miss the point of the creating of the Melee/caster bip page: to provide the best general pve teambuild (yes, it's better) so even poor people without a brain (or without the motivation to create own builds) can complete the game with ease. I totally agree that it's not the best in every scenario, for some areas you might want to use some different skills (but that's what we suggest on the page, so what's the big deal there?), and if it could improve (which is very much possible) then go ahead and list your suggestions. ZStepmother (talk) 18:22, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I stopped reading at "questionable skill choices" - are you kidding me? OQhkAgBqAHK0JACYOgpzQw0Te2FD OQljAkBsZSvAIgcQ5ZkA+Y1Y7YA OQRTAWBfM5Em+cw0HiL4TsDA --Smiley (talk) 18:59, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I think he makes a lot of good points and ignoring all that doesn't help discussion. LifeGuardian (talk) 20:15, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * The Splinter hero in the main build is a MONK Owgj4wQjIPXzyJGzb6Ss+Xs5B. That whole build deals a good 25-30% LESS damage than the one described here. But hey, at least you can run faster. You're wasting my time, i've got better things to do than argueing with people just for the sake of argueing. btw. i've never claimed that this build is merc-free - in contrary, in my original build description i've stated clearly that you need mercs for best effectiveness. --Smiley (talk) 16:00, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Right, so if you include zei ri or a merc in the bip page, you get a rt/mo. The tradeoff between a mesmer and a N/P is similarly large. Also lol @ that link because you listed Mo/Rt as an acceptable variant in the event of no mercenaries, which is exactly what the bip page does. You list 12 channeling as a disadvantage, but still suggest it. LifeGuardian (talk) 20:31, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Oh, a Mo/Rt. What a disgrace. I'd now demand that you update your original build page, but as that's been impossible since mid 2012 I'll just call you out for having accepted a Mo/Rt 6 years ago. :p --Krschkr (talk) 20:58, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * The Mo/Rt is only there to provide a hero for people that don't have Zei Ri yet or don't have mercs, and because WoC HM is one of the most difficult things you can do in the game we make the Mo/Rt the main hero, because a lot of people are simply not capable of completing WoC. Of course it's way better to have a Rt/Mo, but this is the best alternative you can run. It's far better to have that 3rd mesmer and then run with a budget melee support than to run the real melee supporter + some other damage dealer that doesn't compare to the 3rd mesmer. ZStepmother (talk) 09:36, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Build discussions
I'll bring some structure into this to avoid long walls of text and allow people to discuss different points separately. --Krschkr (talk) 19:37, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Feel free to add more topics. I just made subsections for those mentioned in ZStepmother's rant. If there's more to be discussed, keep it structured. :) --Krschkr (talk) 00:12, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

Mesmer Midline: Dual Ineptitude
So far, I have seen no real argument why panic/inept/inept should be the standard for a general use hero team such as this one. For sure there are specific areas where you want the additional phys hate, but Panic/esurge/inept (primarily) or panic/esurge/esurge (less often) seem more universally good than dual inept. LifeGuardian (talk) 20:15, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I personally prefer triple energy surge or visions of regret with dual energy surge for most content; panic usually is overkill, same as ineptitude. But that aside and considering this team is also meant for people who need the defense in more places than us experienced players: There's a synergy between panic and ineptitude. Panic catches plenty of skills, which are set to their cooldown due to the interruption. This forces caster foes to wand and thus more reliably trigger damage from the ineptitude mesmers. It's not so much about the physical shutdown, although that's undoubtedly useful. It's possible to replace the second ineptitude mesmer with an energy surge mesmer, mercenaries assumed, but it's a waste on panic's potential. --Krschkr (talk) 23:34, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm going to regret wading into this, but here we go... Panic interrupts attacks, preventing Ineptitude from triggering. Ineptitude is a great skill because it provides great shutdown and great damage, but the adjacent radius makes it less effective than ESurge for pure damage. Having 2 copies of it is only going to make sense in some very niche situations, making it inappropriate for a GENERAL build. Similarly, Panic is not useful for most content, so it shouldn't be the main bar. If people can't blast through VQs with BiP support, the solution is to get a bow and pull stuff, not just run hyper-defensive bars everywhere. Houroftheowl (talk) 02:40, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Mesmer Midline: Which defense skills and why?
Let's first agree that the combination of panic and ineptitude is 1st) synergizing and 2nd) taking care of casters and physicals alike – and doing a good job in general. So, what to do with the third mesmer, assuming there's a mercenary or simply Zei Ri to allow for this? An energy surge mesmer would add one more AoE rupt and mistrust, the ineptitude mesmer blindness, one to two AoE attack rupts and a single target attack rupt. So it's apparent that the energy surge mesmer adds more defense against spells and the ineptitude mesmer against attacks. Neither of those additional defense skills are required and, assuming the two core mesmers, don't add too much anyway. But due to panic the ineptitude mesmer can deal plenty of damage to every foe except a few who just run away, while the energy surge mesmer is pretty limited in terms of dealing damage to physicals. So, just for the sake of universality, the ineptitude mesmer would probably be to be preferred. But if we really need some extra defense and the two mesmers aren't sufficient, it simply depends on the area. There are dervishes which can quickly wipe teams, so against those a second ineptitude would work better. There are elementalists with plenty of AoE damage; unless they're standing among some foes (which would quickly render them useless due to panic) a second domination mesmer is going to prevent more incoming damage. But I guess that should be obvious. --Krschkr (talk) 23:52, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * But now for the suggestions made above: If your concern is about safety then simply run 2x Panic or 1x Panic 1x PI, the biggest threat is caster foes anyway. – no. Psychic instability reduces the effectivity of panic (or renders it pointless, depending on where the knockdown occurs; if it hits in the panic center the panic mesmer has just wasted energy without contributing anything; run energy surge!) and is highly detrimental to the ineptitude build, or in your case the domination builds aswell, due to the short duration of ineptitude, wandering eye and clumsiness. Dual panic, on the other hand, is just stupid overkill. You can do that in foundry HM without consumables or When Kappa Attack, but those are extreme, unusual examples. So: Dual panic is less universal than panic with ineptitude (and deals less damage), panic with ineptitude and psychic instability is simply silly. --Krschkr (talk) 23:52, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I think Misty already made good points on why double inept is not a good idea. Maybe my PI suggestion wasn't that great, but I think my point still stands. You have no use for 2x Ineptitude, the main danger is caster mobs and 1 inept+displacement is already enough to deal with dangerous melees. Illusion simply doesn't compare to the damage Domination can put out, so ESurge is the only option unless you want to go hyper defensive (2x Panic). ZStepmother (talk) 09:39, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Mesmer Midline: Energy Management
As I haven't actually tested a no Inspir mesmer bar, how is energy management with no inspir vs just power drain vs power drain and another emanagement skill? Having run no bip for the greater part of my gw career, I would also say that it seems like a waste to run pdrain and drain enchant on mesmers when using bip. I would rather have shatter. LifeGuardian (talk) 20:15, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * From my experience mesmers run dry too quickly without their own energy management even when playing with blood is power. That extra energy can then be spent on powerful spells of the main damage attribute line instead of weaken armor or paragon shouts on the mesmer. --Krschkr (talk) 22:54, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

General: Questionable skill and equipment choices
Needs further explanation by whoever finds fault with whichever skill and equipment choices. --Krschkr (talk) 19:37, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Not sure exactly what ZStepmother was referring to above, but frankly skills like hex eater sig, spirit to flesh, orders, expel hexes, discord, and lingering curse seem questionable. I know some of these are optionals/not truly a part of the team comp but it hurts the credibility of the build as a whole. And yes I know bip has questionable skills/optionals as well. LifeGuardian (talk) 20:15, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Hex eater signet: Most heroes are casters and balling as a standard, therefore this helps pretty well against hexes.
 * Spirit to flesh: Heroes are balling, so this will affect many of them. It's a gamble that can be risky, but often it's worth it. Those who don't want to take any risks can replace it. It's only mainbarred on one of the optional healer slots which only mercenary users may pick anyway.
 * Order of Pain: I don't think it's worth it either, but I didn't make the build. I wouldn't oppose a removal of this skill at all.
 * Dark Fury: Worth it with some adrenaline based builds, it's worth keeping this. E.g. for the hundred blades warrior which is among the suggested player builds. Although nonetheless assassin is recommended.
 * Expel Hexes: What's wrong with it? Additional hex removal doesn't hurt in many areas and there are no useful elite skills available to pick. Empathic removal removes less hexes and the condition removal isn't needed due to dual mend body and soul. Xinrae's weapon conflicts with splinter weapon due to the AI. You could think about soul twisting for recuperation and rejuvenation, but that seems harldy worth it. All other options seem to be pointless to me.
 * Discord: What's wrong with it? There are hexes en masse, there's (most likely) jagged strike aswell, so the requirement should be met most of the time. Foes which don't bleed can have deep wounds, can be turned blind with ineptitude or could be weakened by one of the 2 variable skill slots with enfeebling blood. Single target damage isn't bad, especially armor ignoring at this scale and recharge. For comparison: accumulated pain in "your" team deals 79 damage with the potential of deep wound (+100 damage, let's assume that happens), so 179 damage at a casting time of 1.15 seconds with a recharge time of 8 seconds. Discord deals 126 damage at a casting time of 1 second with a recharge time of 2 seconds, while the hero has barely any other skills with a casting time to use so he can spend most of his time using discord to finish targets for putrid explosion. Doesn't sound bad to me in comparison to accumulated pain; in fact it sounds pretty great. And from my experience it is in fact good. Other examples of single target damage in your team would be castigation signet and essence strike (which are assumed pointless due to BiP if we want to be consistent), reversal of damage which is a gamble and may not deal relevant damage due to union, armor boosts and weakness, and of course the minions and spirits, although they serve additional purposes.
 * Lingering curse: Explained in the mercenary substitution options discussion.
 * Does anything else come to your mind? --Krschkr (talk) 23:12, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * First off, comparing discord to accumulated pain is one hell of a straw man. @Hex Eater, any touch skill that causes heroes to bunch up even more than they already do is bad. In the event of actually threatening aoe hexes, you should have flagged your heroes apart ahead of time. For the discord bar, do you use toolbox? Have you compared the damage the bar does compared to other bars? See here. This honestly isn't the best example because I had no form of prot to allow myself to tank and that resulted in quite a bad run. There's also the possibility that my attempt to throw in hexes to trigger discord was not sufficient. However, the real comparison was the Discord bar vs the SoGM bar. I did basically zero microing or flagging on this run outside of FS and literally just ran into mobs. The SoGM bar did vastly more damage than the discord bar and that is with absolute worst use case for SoGM. I can likely do this same test with a fire ele and still beat discord. I'm not here to argue that SoGM is fantastic or anything, but showing the damage of your most hated bar should say something (and it can carry FB too). @Expel, don't run the bar. 2-3x shatter, smite hex, and maybe another one off should be good for everything except like gloom. Also, just as a note, I do not run the bip melee as posted and attempting to discredit legitimate criticism with it isn't getting you anywhere. LifeGuardian (talk) 03:08, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Just so you can know that i'm not bullshitting, here's the discord necro doing less damage than a fire ele in what are just about ideal conditions for discord (AP caller, large groups of melee only foes, small groups of tanky foes). LifeGuardian (talk) 04:20, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't have assumed you were bullshitting and I have to protest against being called out because I discredit legitimate criticism when I'm obviously discussing builds. The comparison with said build has been chosen because the vast majority of people on reddit and the ranting person above chose it as the team build of comparison.
 * Why accumulated pain? Because it's an example of a single target damage spell in the team build of comparison and the most usual criticism I see against discord is that it's dealing single target damage. Not having AoE skills only is no issue, which should be obvious, and which was my main point.
 * I can't give you toolbox results because I refuse to use that cheat program. But even from the examples you were giving I can't really see why to discard discord. In an entire vanquish in an area with plenty of balling foes (all the melee reptile foes, the melee frog men, the close-spawning spiders) the discord hero still did pretty much the same damage as the fire elementalist. That's in an area with not too high armor levels and relatively few rangers. So when that hero is brought in an area with higher armor levels, e.g. the ring of fire, his damage would presumably drop in comparison to the discord's. Also, the fire elementalist would suffer a lot from enchantment removal, whereas the discord necromancer would only lose few damage, in contrast to the entire energy management. And the necromancer has 3 utility skill slots (although tbh in that area you should probably have replaced signet of lost souls with can't touch this, so 4 utility slots :p) to provide the team with speed boosts, armor boosts and more nice to have stuff while the elementalist only had one. I actually have to say: Thanks for providing data which shows that discord is superior to fire eles in most regular scenarios. --Krschkr (talk) 13:36, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I mean if you can't see why comparing a non-elite bar filler to an elite skill isn't meaningful then I can't help you. As for sparkfly, that zone is far more beneficial for the discord than the ele. The large melee groups let putrid explosion carry the damage output, and in other areas such as vloxxen above, dzagonur, and perdition rock the damage output falls considerably. I took out glyph and am considering meteor a utility skill due to the kd and long cd. I could likely remove fire attunement here as well to get to 4 utility skills as I don't think it's required. Why is discord worth running for general pve when a fire ele, which is agreed to be fairly subpar, does the same job but better (without cracked armor)? When comparing the damage of either bar to the shutdown and damage of the mesmers, why would you ever consider the N/P a suitable replacement? LifeGuardian (talk) 20:31, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * As to the point of comparison between this and bip, let me be clear. I am not claiming that the bip build is the end all be all of pve. As i've stated, I don't run the build as listed, and agree that there is room for improvement. I would rather focus on the specific flaws I find with this or both builds. The BiP build having a flaw does not excuse this build from having a flaw. My choice of action with these two builds remains to merge them into one because they are extremely similar. LifeGuardian (talk) 20:31, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * The point I tried to make was not about comparing those two skills, it was mainly that single target damage is not to be refused in general, as I expected that to be your criticism about discord, given you didn't explain what you disliked about discord. And I guess you were well-aware that by ring of fire I meant the three missions with the mursaat and jade constructs, but whatever, well played. --Krschkr (talk) 21:13, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * No, fully agree that perdition doesn’t fit the ring of Fire criteria you were going for, I just have guardian already but don’t have vanquisher. This would be a testament to general pve not high armor areas specifically. I actually have no issues with single target damage assuming it’s the most effective option. I was actually one of the biggest proponents of 3h discord because I would force heroes to cast it with keybinds. My issue with discord in this build is I do not believe it to be the most effective option. LifeGuardian (talk) 21:27, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I feel like all that energy management + epidemic (my thoughts, maybe I should give it a try first), and the lack of PwK is questionable. For the optionals: overload (I tried this one and it doesn't seem like heroes use it correct, but maybe not enough testing), Frustration, Power return, clumsiness, Power return, Mirror. I don't really get the criticism against the Mesmer builds from Caster/Melee bip. You've made some fair points on Weakness and Cracked armor tho, so maybe we can just use 2 hybrids then. What's wrong with the Dom/Illu hybrid then? The Illusion magic skills make up for fewer points in FC, his damage output is simply way higher. He doesnt need the energy management, he has a BiP. He can spend all his time casting damage spells, as the bip can keep him up. The illusion bar has shouts as it's the only bar (except ST) that has room for them, you don't want to pve without 2x Fall Back like ive wrote in the different sections in here. Im not going to repeat my points, just look for them below this section. ZStepmother (talk) 10:26, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Cracked armor
The only armor dependant damage in this team is dealt by wanding heroes and the weapon base damage of the player. The recommended player build is a dagger assassin. Daggers have a very small base damage, most of their damage is dealt by attack skills, strength of honour and splinter weapon and is thus armor ignoring. Although a damage boost of up to 41% sounds great in theory it would grant only few additional points of damage per hit. Simply not worth it in this team. --Krschkr (talk) 19:41, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Agree that cracked armor doesn't matter in this kind of comp. LifeGuardian (talk) 20:15, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Weakness
This team has two ineptitude mesmers (in the standard version) and displacement; an additional source of weakness seems not necessary. For those who want it there are two heroes with an variable skill slot for enfeebling blood and one mesmer substitution with it in the main bar. Therefore critizising the build for not having weakness is kind of a joke? --Krschkr (talk) 20:43, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Party-wide increased movement speed
Absolutely necessary for a PVE team imo. I know you guys don't like the Me/P bar on the other bip page, but where else would you put it? I would take a Me/P over the Discord N/P every time. LifeGuardian (talk) 20:15, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * And I wouldn't. That discord is pretty handy in a team with a melee and spreads the killing. Also it's better in order to kill spread-out foes (-> single targets) than the mesmers. In areas where movement speed is more relevant than stability, so the content is easier in general, I'd drop either run a pretty different build with plenty of direct damage which I wouldn't recommend to inexperienced players, or go the "middle way" and pick two discord necromancers: One over the third mesmer, one over the variable backline character. And those who're entirely obsessed with with fall back could even put it on the ST prot with dual superior runes, although I wouldn't really recommend that. Keep his energy management easy. --Krschkr (talk) 23:17, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Inept + shouts is still miles ahead of Discord + shouts. You waste so much time when playing pve without IMS, it's not worth it to trade the few extra attribute points in illusion for the shouts. Because Illusion has so few options for filling up an entire bar, it's only logical to put the shouts on him. The BiP handles the energy management, so I don't really get why that would be an argument, especially for the ST, who already has boon+ST to keep energy spending low, and he doesn't even cast his shout in combat. ZStepmother (talk) 10:04, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Minion Masters
I was extremely underwhelmed by Discord bars when comparing damage in TB. I would take a MM over that bar just about every time. Given that most areas in PvE do have corpses, wouldn't it make sense to mainbar a MM? I would take another mesmer over this slot period if I used mercs. LifeGuardian (talk) 20:15, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I won't argue that bone fiend minion masters are cool and powerful, but they're still slowing your team down. You'll either enter the fight without him and his minions and play 7vX for a few seconds or you'll have to wait for him to arrive before entering combat, even with plenty of sources of fall back; that's just the hero AI. The only thing that slightly helps against this is running mesmer minion bombers, but they wouldn't fit into either of the discussed teams, obviously. So unless I need the extra defense from minions or playing a defense quest I'm always going to pick the minionless discord necromancer. With the usual killing speed that's likely to help more than the minions. And it just feels better, but that point may be different for someone else. It most likely is. --Krschkr (talk) 23:22, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I've been running this bar with either Aegis/PS/SoA or GftE/SYG/FB which provides plenty of damage and defense without the skills that really cause it to lag behind. It also groups up enemy melee causing all the aoe to be more effective. To your point, the increase in speed and presence makes up for the lack of Death Nova. LifeGuardian (talk) 04:35, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I didn't assume death nova in the first place because it's not meant for this kind of build. Nonetheless even MMs like you posted (even with fall back in the utility skill slots) keep falling behind. --Krschkr (talk) 13:20, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * When you brought up mesmer minion bombers the assumption was death nova, seeing as death nova distribution is one of the points you use to sell that bar. Regardless of falling behind or not, if the MM does a much higher percentage of overall team damage, isn't that a selling point? If I enter as 7 as you say and kill speed suffers as a result, wouldn't the heroes who joined the fight on time have an excess of damage due to being in a fight longer? Or at least those heroes would have scored a few kills or damaged enemies to the point where the MM wouldn't be able to output enough damage to stay competitive with a Discord hero that arrived "on time"? LifeGuardian (talk) 20:31, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Nah, I said they wouldn't fit into either of the discussed teams, obviously because they're bombers and these teams feature shelter. I was talking about minion creation time. But you have a point. --Krschkr (talk) 21:18, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * In my experience, the MM really is not slow at all. I rarely see him being late to fights, so I don't really get where that's coming from. Even if he would be late at 1 or 2 fights, he makes up for that by having an insane damage output. Now, Ive read that you don't use toolbox and I respect that, but believe me, the MM deals an incredible amount of damage (okay, not mesmer level, but still really high) on top of providing a nice meatshield (to keep melees at bay). Discord/Lingering curse/whatever simply don't give the damage+utility the MM can bring. ZStepmother (talk) 09:54, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Mercenary heroes
There's nothing wrong with making a build which features mercenary heroes. They're part of the game. That's on the same level as critizising a build for featuring EotN or nightfall skills or critizising it for being designed to be run with consumables (such as speed clear builds). As not everyone has mercenary heroes we suggested two optional hero builds to replace the mercenary if needed. That's not a bad sign for the build, it's just service. --Krschkr (talk) 20:48, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree with this, but one of your major criticisms of the bip build is the Mo/Rt SoS. That bar is only used because it caters to those who do not use/have mercs. If you have a merc or zei ri you would never use the mo/rt. The same logic would apply here if making the build not require mercs (ie you would have to compromise somewhere on effectiveness). LifeGuardian (talk) 20:52, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Also for a general build, I would say that 0-1 mercenary heroes (zei ri being counted as a "merc" in this) is ideal. The build loses widespread appeal when you cannot use it without actually buying a merc. LifeGuardian (talk) 20:56, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Not having a main bar splinter weapon ritualist is too big a loss. Rather drop the third mesmer than a splinter weapon at 16/17. --Krschkr (talk) 22:50, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Also, this build has 0-1 mercenaries as you like it, counting Zei Ri as a mercenary. The ritualist healer is entirely optional. Just to make this clear. --Krschkr (talk) 23:54, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Mercenary replacement suggestions
They're not part of the main build, they're just a replacement for those players who need it. This should be kept in mind when judging the build. The suggestions are sources of armor ignoring damage with plenty of utility: Additional party wide defense, speed boosts and whatnot. The curses necromancer could aswell have no elite skill, as no curses elite is really interesting. Could pick pain of disenchantment instead in enchantment heavy areas, but else there's just nothing. Lingering curse features additional pressure, makes sure that accumulated pain inflicts deep wound and any healing is reduced noticeably; due to hard mode attribute levels most healing and fake healing is pretty large. E.g. a warden of seasons' spirit light would heal 176 instead of 220, which is comparable to having dealt 44 damage. If both lingering curse and pain of disenchantment go awry there'd still be incoming, but let's not even consider that a viable option, pick the discord hero instead. It helps to kill a single target quickly, thereby deals AoE damage with putrid bile (ideally) and then follows with decisive additional AoE damage using putrid explosion. I don't know what exactly people dislike about this build and how that justifies writing the likes of  those horrible shout necros (how can you even suggest those?) – that's something to write about SoGM heroes. :p --Krschkr (talk) 22:48, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I feel like this goes along with the talk on the MM hero. Like I wrote there, these "horrible shout necros" simply are no match for the AotL. If you want to run 1 healer then slap some shouts on the AotL bar (like in Caster BiP), and if you want heals then give hime resto spells. I completely agree on the SoGM hero (or most of the 7HPS suggestions) btw, he's just plain trash ZStepmother (talk) 09:56, 10 August 2018 (UTC)
 * In that case you'll probably like to hear that the old Hero Player Support has been archived. --Krschkr (talk) 10:01, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Variable skill slots
We know that most builds aren't 8 skills without any to swap when situations call for it. There are a few skills which represent a build's core and everything else is just a nice to have addition. I picked some of those nice to have additions and mainbarred them because they're good and pretty universal. Others have been added to the optional skills, so people can more easily adjust their builds depending on the area they're going to play in and according to their own playing style. The third backline hero is entirely optional for this very reason, so frenzy warriors can pick the E/Mo, people who chose extremely energy heavy hero builds dual BiP and those who just want more healing the ritualist. This should also help people to understand the build they're playing and I still don't really see what people hate about it so much. It's more of a service than anything else. But those mindless people who need a pre-made build can use the paw*ned² template. --Krschkr (talk) 00:09, 9 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Okay you make a good point. If any slot is open for variety it's this hero slot. Altho I'd say that it's still a braindead choice: the Emo and Rit healer might bring more healing, the MM still brings a lot of healing on top of providing awesome damage + protection from melee mobs. ZStepmother (talk) 10:04, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Consumables
PvX builds typically assume you are not using cons unless listed on the page as mandatory. For general PvE, no build's functionality should be based around consumables use unless for an elite area specifically. LifeGuardian (talk) 20:15, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Exactly. This build is not designed to be used with consumables. I don't even know how anyone could fairly assume that out of a side comment which only stated that many people use consumables. Of course this build works better with consumables, just like probably 99% of all builds. That doesn't need to be noted, though, they're not required. --Krschkr (talk) 22:52, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * The reason the cons discussion came up on reddit is because someone used cons as justification to why there was no fall back. LifeGuardian (talk) 22:58, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
 * No, he did not. Re-read it. He says that many people use consets, but if one wants to have speed boosts with this build, they should go for N/P heroes. --Krschkr (talk) 23:25, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Caster player
Any concrete suggestion for a caster player variant is welcome. If need be I'll propose one, just wait a few months until I get to it. --Krschkr (talk) 00:50, 15 December 2019 (UTC)