Build talk:D/any Pious Renewal

This is the first build I have submitted to PvX so if I have made any mistakes please let me know. Any feedback on this would be welcome. --Jimmyjam 03:25, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Interesting. Zyke 03:47, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Better than the other build posted along the same lines. Nice ideas for variants too. Good to see someone still believes of adapting to the needs of specific areas, rather than using copy pasta meta builds. +1 Potatosoup  / talk 16:01, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Nothing would stop a player from adding a needed skill for a particular area. The build wouldn't suddenly become un-meta. Cuilan 19:22, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Cleanup Tag
I have Tried to narrow down a bit, not sure specifically how much needed to be though, and have removed first person. I dont know how to use wikilinks or what they are, couldnt find out on the pages I looked at either. Removing "Remove first person" clause from cleanup tag. --Jimmyjam 11:42, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Basically all your links should look like: Aura Slicer this means that the first part before the line links to the skill page on guild-wars-wiki, and the bit after the | line is what you want to appear. -- [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px]] Chieftain  Alex  13:40, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah thankyou, also thanks to whoever started changing the links. Saves me some work :) --Jimmyjam 14:44, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Ok, ive changed all the links to wikilinks, except the dev notes page. I figured that should be left as is. Cleared it up some more as well so i've removed the cleanup tag and moved it into testing. If anyone still deems that this needs cleaning up further then stick the tag back on, but I think its looking to standard now. --Jimmyjam 15:24, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Looks good to me. Potatosoup  / talk 16:01, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Optionals
Stop adding crap. Cuilan 18:41, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Needs more mainbar skills too. Pios is a shitty choice of elite too,there's plenty of enchants available you don't need to use your elite on a throwaway teardown fueler.--TahiriVeila 19:04, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, I like the build idea. but there were way to many optionals a half an hour ago. --Saxon 19:05, 19 February 2011 (UTC)::;;;;
 * I kind of like the idea of an energy free, self heal fueler for pious attack and AoHM that can be used continuously. What other enchantment would you recommend TahiriVeila? --Saxon 19:10, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The core of the build is mainbar'ed. Want more? Make SY mainbar. Cuilan 19:12, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, the elite is needed. Don't like it? Post a new build. Cuilan 19:13, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Im a little peeved that the time i spent making this page was wasted, but I have to admit this still gets the main poitns across. I dont see the value of SY! on this bar though, even with FGJ! Using adrenaline skills makes the elite redundant and you may as well use Avatar of Balthazar, Pious is used for Energy costing teardown attacks because it seriously reduces the cost of them and allows for more spam. I think any SY as well as any other adrenaline skills should be removed from the optionals. Also, the aim of this build is to churn out AoE damage like a boss, thus ending fights as fast as possible, SY would only slow it down. If a team wants SY to be used it would be better served on a barrage ranger to spread it from the midline. --Jimmyjam 19:06, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, Wounding Strike/Reap impurites combo is stupid. Adding deep wound will make them die faster than the AoE you get from reap impurites for removing it. Especially in HM. --Jimmyjam 20:17, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Changed the Wearying Strike thing. Other players or heroes in your group tend to have other conditions. Cuilan 20:32, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * You can only run SY, only energy skills, or a little of both. Having a skill that gives energy doesn't mean you can't have adrenaline skills. Cuilan 20:36, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Thats not what i'm saying. Im just saying that using high cost adren skills is ineffective due to it needing to add FGJ to the bar in order to get them out fast enough, which then uses another skill slot which could be better used for something else. --Jimmyjam 03:01, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

I kind of agree, this build has great energy and I think shines more when you abuse that. I've been playing with the build and think this is a stronger base bar that that would enable you abuse any other high energy optionals: [build prof=D/? name="Pious Teardowns" scy=12+1 mys=12+1+1][Pious Fury][Pious Renewal][Pious Assault][Eremite's Attack][Optional][Optional][Meditation][Aura of Holy Might (Kurzick)][/build] --Saxon 22:09, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * If there are higher energy skills worth it, it should be noted with the skills if the build already has solid energy. What skills would those be? Sand Shards because of attribute split? Cuilan 23:54, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I was thinking of PvE skills like Pain Inverter, EBSoH, Finish Him etc. --Saxon 00:18, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I just gave the optionals an overhaul. I tried to only include Derv skills that somewhat sync with the bar build, and then standard PvE skills that would work well too.--Saxon 01:37, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Most of those look really random. Cuilan 01:40, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Discuss first. Pain Inverter is situational and my not go off with enough progressive forms of damage. Vow of Piety and skills that renew are often first to be stripped because they return to the top of the stack and the build already has healing. Cuilan 01:44, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * That's fine, delete those two optionals. Don't undo the whole thing. The optionals are more clear if they are grouped by 3 attribute and all of the other options were sweet.--Saxon 01:48, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Pious Restoration is also situational as hex removal can either be outsourced to heroes/players and often times hexes can be ignored. Having too many flash skills slows you down from spamming tear downs. A lot of those optional can be added to any build (like Finish Him). And don't revert a revert or we'll be banned. Cuilan 01:55, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * At least I'm trying to work with you and the build is turning out nicely, but you'll notice that most builds on PvX try to keep skills that benefit the build and not just something you can run on anything. Cuilan 02:08, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

I didn't revert earlier, I actually just edited it again. But I agree, the build is turning out well, the optional skills just need more fine tuned. I'm not satisfied with how they are currently grouped. And I do agree, the ones I had up need to be more narrowed down to just the ones that sync best. I'll work on it more later. Thanks Cuilian. --Saxon 02:16, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * How about those options and groupings? --Saxon 04:37, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, I think Eremite's Attack should be main barred. The build requires some mele skills, and it sync's the best. It would also help fuel either of the optional combos. --Saxon 04:45, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The wording is silly, nobody is going to use Eternal Aura for it's health boost. The categories were better before and they reasons after the skill already explained which went better together. You may see them as combos, but many of them can be mixed. The build is melee, all the skills are melee. Cuilan 05:14, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Maybe I should put the changes to the other page for this build... Cuilan 05:17, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * PvE skill of your choice! Cuilan 05:23, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Some of these work better with others. Some of these work horrible with others. The combo optionals help clarify that. Thats how the dwarven hammer build is grouped and it was nearly rated meta. For one, Sands of Shards is a Flash and will constantly be goofed up by the elite flash unless it is paired with a non tear down melee such as whirlwind attack. And Aura Slicer is lame here. If you want a conditional skill to use with Reap Impurities, then Crippling Victory is a better option bc it has way more dmg potential, and they should be paired together also.--Saxon 05:33, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

That was hard. Life Guardian 05:54, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * As long as Cuilan doesn't revert it for the 20th time, I'm fine with how it currently is and would actually vote on it now (although I still feel Eremite's Attack needs to be main barred) . --Saxon 06:02, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * When I posted ths in the first place, eremites was main bar. Playing this build I use eremites, Pious, and Irristible sweep for the attacks, and meditation and sand shards. It essentially has unlimeted energy and blows stuff up hellafast. And as far as the problem with stripping Sand Shards with teardown over Pious, well sometimes that can happen yes, but 99% of the time i play with it, I always make sure Pious is up first, precasting Sand Shards before battle helps with this, and then always cast Renewal before ANY teardown skill. This gets you your bonus damage from shards at the start of the fight as opposed to part way through, but what differnce does thta make? The point is Whirlwind attack isnt needed to use sand shards, you get the same effect from eremites without the need for adrenaline.--Jimmyjam 02:41, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I removed Wearying strike from mainbar, it most definately isnt a mainbar skill, besides which the third attack skill should be left optional, leaving two optionals slot for utility. I think my build, with the work put into it from Cuilan and Saxon is ready to start being voted on in its current state. And thanks to both of you for trying to improve it, even if there have been disagreements :) --Jimmyjam 11:56, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, should a bar with the Luxon AoHM be added to variants or under the first bar? Or is it not needed do you think? --Jimmyjam 12:00, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Not needed. --Saxon 13:52, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Relyk, instead of just adding wearying strike to the mainbar, at least justify why you think it deserves to be. I dont think it should be because its too slow for most fights. No doubt it should be in the optionals, because for tougher areas where the fights last longer, an adrenaline (I.e. 0 energy for energy management) skill that inflicts deep wound can be really useful, but in most situations it is too slow at 5 adrenaline. Also, why get rid of the separation of optionals? With a full attack bar, or only 2 attacks is innefective. Saxon, Cuilan, you guys have worked on this a lot. Do you agree that Wounding Strike should stay in optionals or go mainbar? In the meantime, i'm reverting. --Jimmyjam 21:56, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

The bar definitely requires Pious Assault + 2 more spammable teardown attacks. Eremite's, Wearying Strike, and Irresistible Sweep are by far the most spammable. Most everyone agrees on Eremites and the other two both have pros and cons. Wearying Strike is my preference. --Saxon 00:10, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Irresistible Sweep does more than Eremite's Attack unless you're around very large mobs. Both should be optionals. Wearying Strike I love, but also optional. Cuilan 00:26, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Saxon's last change just then I think solves the problem. I dont think this page can be made any better than it is tbh. Saying that Air of Superiority doesnt really have much use in the build. Its only real uses are for + energy and instant recharge. Neither of those will contribute much to this. Dont think it should be listed as an optional, and have "You Are All Weaklings!" in there, since it will have great synergy with reap impurities. Gonna make that change now, if you dont like it, revert, but at least justify why first please. --Jimmyjam 00:39, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * So,can this start getting rated yet or no? Id like to finally see how well my first PvX build does ^_^ --Jimmyjam 00:49, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I already rated it a while ago. Please indent properly. Correctly would be one more ":" then the person above you, not a whole empty line. --Saxon 00:51, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I usually indent correctly. Ah, can I rate a page I created? Because if not that explains why it wont let me. When I click on rate it says "This is restriced to the group autoconfirmed members", I checked it out and im pretty sure I meet the criteria of authenticated email and 8 non deleted edits.--Jimmyjam 00:55, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * You must also have had an account for 4 days. You seem to be just on the cusp of 4 days, so wait a little longer. You should definitely be able to vote by tomorrow. -- Toraen TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png|link=User:Toraen]] 03:09, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

I give up, you guys are retarded-- Relyk  talk  01:19, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh noes. Cuilan 01:33, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * /sarcasm Gee, that was helpfull /end sarcasm --Jimmyjam 01:35, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * As it is now... this page is more of a "concept" rather than a build. With 4 optionals with so many bad skills in the options, you can have a great build or a build that is horribly bad if people followed it.  IMO there are only a few ways you can chain the attack skills for the highest efficiency with pious renewal.  Eremite's and wearying strike is a must here... and limited options for optional 1 and optional 2.  Try to keep the number of each optional to less than 3 skills per optional because that is how many skills that would work efficiently with pious renewal... and just a couple of PvE skills plz. Lania Elderfire 03:11, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree, and it seems like the majority of people feel like Eremite's and Wearying Strike need to be mainbarred. I'm going to make the change and list the other teardowns as variants/optionals. --Saxon 03:45, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The build is pretty precise now. I tried to take generic optionals out. I listed Irresistible Sweep and Twin Moon Sweep as variants. The reason Wearying Strike is a great choice is because you build up 5 adrenaline with a scythe fairly quickly, making it a cheap deep wound. And a spammable deepwound makes ppl happy. And YAY for the skill descriptions being updated :) --Saxon 04:18, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok, I can live with wearying in the mainbar since you guys added the stuff in variants.--Jimmyjam 12:59, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Banishing Strike
Can't be easily buffed (SoH, etc.)? If not than it's pretty situational to an area. Cuilan 04:20, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * It just seems like a decent attack to me. 57 armor ignoring dmg every 3 seconds. But idc about it all that much. --Saxon 04:31, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I dont think the bonus from banishing can be buffed with SoH, but it is armour ignoring and with a 1sec cast time, faster than any other scythe attack. Plus with a 3 sec recharge, it can be thrown out pretty damn fast. Its not a main bar move by any means, but I think it should definately be in optionals because it gives the build some strong armour ignoring damage for those nasty armoured HM bosses and swings for ~120 vs undead. --Jimmyjam 12:59, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Plus, it cant hurt to have an extra optional attack right? --Jimmyjam 13:27, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Weakness
Have the mesmer, necro, or anyone with PvE skills bring it. Cuilan 04:21, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * If I bring Reap Impurities then I most definitely will be bringing "You Are All Weaklings" to guarantee the conditional affect is met. It makes sense to me, I think it should stay in the recommended optionals. Either that, or you might as well take Reap Impurities out.
 * You can have conditions that are guaranteed though countless other ways. Cuilan 04:47, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I hate arguing about such minute details. The build already rocks. If the user wants to bring other sources then that's fine. Most teams have some conditions. I just think it should be listed if reap impurities is. --Saxon 04:52, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Withering Aura with Fragility on a mesmer hero would reapply weakness after it's removed and offer more damage as an example. Cuilan 06:20, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * While that wither/fraag combo may do more damage, it means speccing your mes for stuff which could be better. And besides, if it goes off right, Reap will end a mob damn fast or at least leave it one more attack from dead, so rapplying weakness isnt really needed.--Jimmyjam 12:59, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * You wouldn't be adding it to the build... Cuilan 19:58, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I dont really understand that comment, could you elaborate? --Jimmyjam 00:55, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Eternal Aura
Why has that been removed from optionals? Its fantastic with this because of Pious Fury being mainbar, you can mass res at will. And in the meantime, + 100 hp, and +1 enchant for windwalkers armour condition. --Jimmyjam 12:59, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I will probably have EA on when I run the build. But I had taken it out of optionals because it didnt seem to have an special sync with the build, just seems like a standard generic derv skill that ppl should just know to use when they want to. --Saxon 13:32, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Sand Shards Attributes
Not really a big deal but Sand Shards is good for 3 hits @6 and 4 hits @10. Either drop {myst to 9+1+1, earth to 9+1} or {scythe to 11+1, earth to 6}. Any thoughts or preferences or should we just leave it open for the user to figure out. --Saxon 13:32, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Correct me if i'm wrong, but doesnt bringing myst to 10+1, let you set earth to 8+1? not sure pf breakpoints, but if it needs to be 10 earth, use 8+2? 35 hp isnt much of a biggie with + armour and hp runes --Jimmyjam 13:41, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually its a moot point, I didnt realise myst was at 12+1+1 base, so bringing down to 9+1+1 is fine, can set earth 10 9+1 then. --Jimmyjam 13:43, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Wind Walker Insignia
I removed this from the equipment because with only one enchantment always up on main bar (AoHM), only one other in optionals (EA) and temprarily Sand Shards if using it, it isnt very effective. Blessed will give the same armour boost permanently on its own. --Jimmyjam 13:27, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * you play frontline characters without things like orders or SoH? and pious renewal should always be up, it only goes down when you use a skill but then it should immediately go back up. 90.206.126.27 17:28, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd be tempted not to run SoH with this due to the nature of the constant enchantment removal, {I'm taking into account you're often going to think, stuff it, this foe has 1hp left and another attack would kill it (removes soh) - oops.} side note, heroes can use this build quite effectively albeit without any pve skills lowers dps. -- [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px]] Chieftain  Alex  18:36, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah, I always forget that other party memeber can provide stuff like enchantments and things >.< Also, derv teardowns ONLY remove dervish enchantments now. So SoH would never get stripped by the derv--Jimmyjam 19:40, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Oops - yeah worth adding that you could use windwalker then. -- [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px]] Chieftain  Alex  19:45, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I also ran this on my hero and she actually used it quite decently. A hero variant should be added at some point. --Saxon 19:48, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Put windwalker back. I havent tried any new derv builds on heros yet so idk about that. Do they need much micro-ing for this sort of stuff or does the AI handle it quite intuitively? Will they strip AoHM by accident for example, or do they spam pious enough to only strip that?--Jimmyjam 19:49, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

They spam Pious just fine. But AoHM is a pve skill, so they can't use it. So the hero variant wouldn't be as effective, but still a decent build for a mele hero.--Saxon 20:15, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah cool, ill try working on a good hero variant too then :)--Jimmyjam 20:31, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Ratings
GhostWheelX's rating is based on dps alone which is poor reasoning. The damage is mostly Armor Ignoring which means it shines even more in HM. It is also self healing of around 200 hp over 10 seconds, greatly increasing survivability. I did do a quick test of some common meta and great builds (both melee and non melee) based on dps just to see how it did compare: Based off these tests even the dps is par with other meta/great builds. The rating should be changed or removed. I have screen shots if anyone is needs to see them. --Saxon 17:24, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Dagger Spam: DPS/78 - Death/8 sec - Spike/189
 * Pious Renew: DPS/50 - Death/11 sec - Spike/165
 * Dwarven Ham: DPS/44 - Death/14 sec - Spike/104
 * Standard Axe: DPS/43 - Death/13 sec - Spike/94
 * Spirit Spam: DPS/88 - Death/9 sec - Spike/264
 * Fire Nuker: DPS/66 - Death/9 sec - Spike/209
 * It had already been removed before you posted. That being said, MoD calculations mean nothing because it's a single, 60al for that doesnt move. Life Guardian 17:32, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Cool beans, thanks LG. Although to be fair, there are 3 goons, so it calculates some AoE dmg. Although you're right, it's not a reliable way to test a build bc its an impractical situation. --Saxon 17:36, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * So what *is* a reliable way to test and record damage output? Some of us aren't satisfied with "just seeing how it goes" and would rather have some hard numbers to compare to other builds. --GhostwheelX 19:31, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * You either actually use it and test it, or run some numbers based on hypothetical but common situations in PvE. It's not that hard to calculate the real damage numbers even w/o using the build at all since everything is based on known simple formulas and probability. GWW has several articles with detailed formulas for every type of damage.  In this case, it is super easy cause most of the damage is armor ignoring so you don't even have to use formulas.   Lania Elderfire 19:39, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I think MoD is fine for damage output and I posted hard numbers above. Like I said, this build is on par with other great/commonly used builds if you're looking at dmg only. But damage output is not the only thing that should be used when evaluating if a build is good or not. Spammability, healing, defense, shutdown, team synergy are a few other factors that go into good builds...things which MoD cant calculate. For instance, the Dwarven Hammer has less dmg output then pious, but that build offer +40 armor, KD's deep wound, and AoE rupts...stuff MoD doesn't calculate. Which is why your originally rating was not accurate of the overall effectiveness of the build. --Saxon 19:43, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, as you mentioned, this has great self sustainability through energy management, life gain and armour. Also, it can be incredibly versatile and can adapt to almost any situation as needed --Jimmyjam 19:45, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * That has nothing to do with the effectiveness of the build jimmy. One of the best ways to estimate damage is to see how long it takes to kill a group in a HM dungeon. It's 90% subjective however so comparisons should be taken with a grain of salt.-- Relyk  talk  21:23, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah exactly, im not saying this is the highest DPS build, but considering its mostly armour ignoring AoE damage, it does tend to kill HM mobs quicker than some of the builds listed above. --Jimmyjam 21:39, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Attributes and Runes
Since there seems to be some controversy as to the attributes and rune set up on this, I say we get a general consensus here and leave it at that. Should starting attributes be mysticism 12+1+1, Scythe 12+1 and for using sand shards set to myst 9+1+1 and earth to 9+1 OR should it be starting with myst 12+1 and scythe 12+1+1, and when using earth change myst to 10+1, and earth to 8+2? I think it should be 12+1+1 myst to start since you get that extra energy from it, if you leave it at 12+1, then whats the point in the +1? a little extra health gain and +1 armour while enchanted? The Pious Renewal still only costs 2 at both. Also you dont have to give up those 35 hp for using a major rune. --Jimmyjam 21:39, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * You don't need mysticism at 14, that's the whole point. You're energy is fine. Better to put a point in scythe mastery for more damage. 13 mysticism is a break point.-- Relyk  talk  21:45, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Hmm I just checked it out again and it seems I was wrong about the energy reduction breakpoint, but you still lose that one point of energy gain from Pious Renewal. In my experience ive needed it at 14 tbh, my energy starts running a bit too low when fights last longer than two attack chains. --Jimmyjam 21:52, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I think it depends on your play. 13 and 14 Mys are both breakpoints, with 14 granting you a little more Energy per cast at the cost of a bit of your damage.  But Scythe Mastery doesn't "really" have a proper breakpoint at 14.  You'd just be sacrificing a bit of skill and attack damage.  So either way is probably valid here. --BuildKitten 01:19, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree. I run this with myst 12+1+1. -- Saxon  02:06, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
 * 14 scythe is optimal, the attributes should reflect such. If you want 14 mysticism really bad, run a major rune.-- Relyk  talk  02:38, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Hero usage
Hero usage is mentioned on the ratings page but not in the article. Please share your hero usage information.--War Pig5 22:07, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Hero's use Pious well. They can't use AoHM so they lose some of the dmg. But it's still a decent mele hero build. A hero variant will be added soon. --Saxon 23:08, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I think a hero build should wait for some sort of AI update, otherwise it's pretty bad. Cuilan 23:18, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Did the AI not get updated for the new derv stuff? Or is it coming separately, if at all? Also, im gonna get on wit hmaking a working hero variant now. --Jimmyjam 23:38, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Idk what you consider using Pious well saxon, but mine are completely lame with this. They cant use sandshards cus they put it up mid battle and strip it with a teardown, and they dont spam pious properly. Definately not a hero build --Jimmyjam 00:00, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I didn't run sand shards. I'm sure two flash enchantments is to confusing for AI. I used the bare bones of the bar build. If an update is already on the way then I wouldn't spend to much time on making hero builds atm. --Saxon  00:22, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. Yeah im gonna leave it for now--Jimmyjam 00:58, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

basically I'm not sure if ZR is needed at all, but after the melee hero update, I'll probably slot Sand Shards in there-- Chieftain   Alex  12:52, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Can anyone link me to any actual info on this AI update that people are mentioning here? A hero update happened, but as far as I know they did not get any smarter; you can just use more of them.--War Pig5 00:07, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Here and here.-- Saxon  22:06, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Diversion
Does not affect the "instant recharge on end" effect of Pious renewal. Please stop putting that note back in there. Lania Elderfire 23:32, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
 * A challenger appears. Cuilan 00:01, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
 * By running this you *must* know this to be true, C. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 01:15, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I put it in once, and didnt think it through chill out lol --Jimmyjam 02:36, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Might help to double check GWW's skill notes for Pious Renewal for those who haven't encountered that situation before. Lania Elderfire 03:12, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Aura of Thorns
How about Aura of Thorns? I think Pious Renewal > Pious Assault > Aura of Thorns > Eremite's Attack > Reap Impurities would work great. Any thoughts on this? --Dank Rafft 04:17, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Its not really needed in this build. Granted it is a petty good combo, but the Pious renewal at the start is not necessary. Any other Teardown enchantment would work just as well if not better. The aim of this is to abuse Pious Renewal to spam teardown attacks, personally I dont use reap purely for that reason, also its kinda hit and miss for me in that you have to have at least two enemies directly in front of you for it to work. However, if you wanna run it in your own build then fine, theres nothing stopping you, I just dont think it really has much of a place on the page. --Jimmyjam 14:58, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks for explanation. --Dank Rafft 15:19, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Really, if you were balling properly (which most people don't) that combo would be ideal but now everyone is 1337 like EFGJack 65.191.246.62 07:35, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Kinetic Armor
+32 armor with 3 points in earth magic and gets renewed every time you hit Pious Renewal with no downside (unless it's stripped). 75.58.17.254 02:04, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
 * No reason to use it unless you're needing something specific. Cuilan 02:39, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah. Granted it has great synergy and is effective for no real investment into it, but its not needed for much in general since you get +armour from mysticism and (if using them) insignias. If you find youre dying more than you'd like though theres no reason you cant use it. Or you could take a look at your healer bars ... --Jimmyjam 13:31, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I just found that 4 attack skills is enough, and I was having trouble finding a worthwhile skill to top off my bar. Think it might be worth it to add it to the optionals? 75.36.238.98 01:10, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Skills that renew are easily stripped and hard to cover. No. Cuilan 03:21, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
 * That is complete bullshit when you are taking Pious renewal. Insta cast and insta recharge cover ench is gud enough for renewing enchantments. Only in case some hero uses an enchantment on you which ends, Kinetic will be on top, but since you should be spamming pious renewal every 1 sec or so, this won't matter alot...pls think be4 you say its hard to cover.. lol82.72.102.207 13:00, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * It goes right under Pious Renewal when you use it. You would have to anticipate the removal. Cuilan 02:31, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Meta
Any reason why this is not in the meta working general builds section? It's pretty much the staple for all general dervish PVE at the moment YuriZahard 20:33, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
 * We need consensus from multiple users to add any build not in the GvG/HA sections to the meta category. No one really brought it up before, basically. -- Toraen TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png|link=User:Toraen]] 23:26, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It's certainly one of the best working Dervish builds out there. I don't think it's Meta necessarily, but I don't see the harm. Aonsephonie 23:55, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
 * VoS should be the cookie cutter derv build, but this is faceroll-- Relyk 00:14, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Nothing wrong with both being in the meta category. Or do people really not run VoS very often? -- Toraen TheJanitor [[image:ToraenSig2.png|link=User:Toraen]] 00:15, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Most people run AoG cause its a scrub build. Anvil God 00:18, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Not exactly face roll since if you accidentally remove AOHM (lol I'm a tard right.. ) your damage is gimped for a bit. -- [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  11:38, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
 * But you know whats fun about this build either it being a meta or not, you can take so many different skills with you because it needs only a few skills to work efficient. It makes a very varsetile bar wich can be changed to adept to the area you are going to enter. 62.195.252.192 17:14, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Exaggerated Tales of Ease of Use
Seriously, just because you're awful at the game doesn't mean you should rate this down. You're spamming sure, but if you're too much of a shitter to get into a rhythm as simple as this one, then don't vote. Go play a mesmer instead. &mdash; <font color="#CC0099">Skakid  Rally- kupo! 18:35, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Why shouldn't it be taken into concern when voting? We also rate hero builds based on micromanagement, if a build is too complex the effectiveness will go down. Btw your sig is gay. <font color="Black">Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 18:48, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * complex there's nothing complex about using a skill &mdash; <font color="#CC0099">Skakid  Rally- kupo! [[Image:S9M.png]] 18:52, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Doesn't change the fact that a build can be very tedious to play, just as ER can be very tedious in hectic situations. "Ease of use" is always an important factor. <font color="Black">Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 18:57, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Except micro'ing means essentially having to play multiple characters at once. This is simply pressing 1-2 instead of just 2. That's really not a comparison. Not to mention that micro'ing heroes is definitely harder than playing the bar yourself, because you can only assign hotkeys to 3 heroes, and the rest you actually have to go up and click. ER is a bitch because you have to be doing whatever role you're doing as well as watching the party bar (and ideally the field as well so you can actually predict stuff), and then when something is going to get hit, you have to target that ally (meaning you can't target the foe, so your damage will go down), and have to either hit a hotkey (and you only have so many keys on the keyboard) or click the skill itself. All of this takes time and, unless you're in like the top 1% of GW players, it's going to detract from your overall effectiveness. Pressing 1-3 and 1-2 is not on that same level. -- Jai . -  19:39, November 9 2011 (UTC)
 * Being boring and being hard to use are 2 entirely different things. And this certainly isn't hard to use. PewPew   QQ   19:45, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The way you describe it playing ER is no different than playing a monk, or any other healer for that matter.. ER requires perfect energy management, healing, prot, weapon spell (GDW) and possible weapon swap usage. Especially when melees are standing in traps or stuff like chaos storm. Anyway, regardless of the precise semantics, who are we to judge if something is difficult for anyone else? Who cares if they are lazy, retarded or only have one hand, the build is rated 4.85! <font color="Black">Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 21:10, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Look just don't make votes that rely on "hard to use" because it is (1) not objective. (2) not what we care about. We do not need pages of discussion on this. --  Toraen   talk  21:55, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Do you kids have downs? This is one of the most faceroll bars I've ever played. If you can't manage to hit 4 before you use an attack skill you should probably just uninstall.--TahiriVeila 22:29, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Hold up... What's more faceroll than this? -- Jai . -  22:31, November 9 2011 (UTC)
 * This and this and  this and mustn't forget this  . herpderp look at me hitting 1-6!!! me so guuud. Roland 02:28, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Scythes > daggers at this point, tbh. It's like 5 times the AoE damage. -- Jai . -  03:00, November 11 2011 (UTC)

In case anyone wondered, Gaile Gray eventually responded to Skakid's question here. <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  00:21, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

"The OP asked if I considered using a macro to automate weapon swaps or skill patterns a violation of the UA. Yes, I do, because it gives an advantage, in that one player is doing it all manually and someone else can be sitting back sipping a cup o' tea while the game "plays" through the use of macros"  - Gaile Gray

14 Mysticism?
Breakpoint of Pious Renewal, and who doesn't use major/superior runes? <FONT COLOR="#000000">S</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000033">h</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000066">a</FONT><FONT COLOR="#00009a">d</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000cd">o</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff">w</FONT> 15:36, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You don't need to, you have enough energy as is. Add it to notes if you care enough.-- Relyk 16:27, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I just thought like, why not =) <FONT COLOR="#000000">S</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000033">h</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000066">a</FONT><FONT COLOR="#00009a">d</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000cd">o</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff">w</FONT> 16:44, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I want mais 45 healthz. 13 is a breakpoint too, otherwise you could run 12 since Pious Fury would last the same duration.-- Relyk 16:53, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
 * hahaha, 35 you mean <FONT COLOR="#000000">S</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000033">h</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000066">a</FONT><FONT COLOR="#00009a">d</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000cd">o</FONT><FONT COLOR="#0000ff">w</FONT> 17:22, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
 * You'd be far better off bring scythe up to 15 or 16. -- Jai . -  03:02, November 11 2011 (UTC)
 * Why does everyone want to remove all of their health as a frontline? Q.Q SpongeBobSignaturePants.jpg 00:25, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Because it's PvE mostly. If someone wants to run sup weapon mastery for more damage and they can pull it off, more power to them. They should probably keep a minor headpiece handy if they ever PuG though. -- Toraen   confer  00:34, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Signet of Pious Restraint
I seem to remember it being an optional. Thoughts? Cuilan 04:04, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * No-- Relyk 04:26, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * No as in yes? Cuilan 04:31, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Less suicidal in a party that has a human backline than Death's Charge for balling. YMLaD is listed for a "snare" and Eternal Aura blows but I don't see any complaints. Cuilan 05:57, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Seems silly to be honest. Feel free to add it to optionals though.  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  06:13, 25 February 2012 (UTC)