Archive talk:W/any Magehunter's Smash Warrior

Discussion
I didn't make any effort past basic copypasta and cuts from the devhammer page, so if anyone sees something obvious that needs to be on the bar, feel free to edit. -- Mafaraxas 16:26, 6 March 2008 (EST)
 * Added Mighty to variants. Looks pretty solid to me. - Star Seeker  |  My talk  16:28, 6 March 2008 (EST)


 * Lol, I made a build called "Magesmashing Warrior" a while ago. Is this a resurrection of it? --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  16:59, 6 March 2008 (EST)
 * You shouldn't have tagged it for deletion so quickly ;) Not sure how exactly this bar is the same as that, but I pretty much copied the devhammer page and adjusted the skills and usage accordingly. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] Mafaraxas 18:17, 6 March 2008 (EST)

Switch Enraging charge for Mokele strike. More adrenalin, more damage, faster recharge. MrBArtel 18:08, 6 March 2008 (EST)
 * Mokele can't cancel flail if rush isn't charged for some reason. 119 19:32, 6 March 2008 (EST)

I was going to copy devhammer too :D Buff makes this quickest recharging KD without a penalty. Definitely will get Great rating.--Relyk 22:23, 6 March 2008 (EST)
 * Devhammer and Magesmash have the same cost, but Magesmash's secondary effect is just better now since people don't really run Heavy Blow anymore, and weakness is bad. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] Mafaraxas 22:29, 6 March 2008 (EST)

Weakness variant
For those who do still like to run Heavy Blow (Arenas, for example), I'd suggest this:

Offers a bit more flexibility in that it can Bull's > Pulverize > Heavy Blow for two knockdowns without the full adrenaline charge for Magehunter; and of course if you're one of those who actually like the Weakness condition and +damage from Heavy Blow, this still works. On the other hand, I can't get Flail to work with the chain, since Pulverizing uses adrenaline instead of energy, so you can't switch on Flail + Pulverizing at the same time. Frenzy is on-demand, of course, though it does have its obvious shortcomings. --  Scottie_theNerd  (argue / criticise / complain)  23:21, 6 March 2008 (EST)

The description states this can bypass blocking enchantments. How? Rickyvantof 01:15, 7 March 2008 (EST)
 * New update, Magehunter's Smash causes KD regardless now and if enchanted it's unblockable. 7 adrenaline. Racthoh 01:19, 7 March 2008 (EST)
 * Nice! :D Rickyvantof 01:20, 7 March 2008 (EST)
 * Eh, still can't get past stance blocking, like AoG, so no attacking the gay scythe ranger with Escape. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] Mafaraxas 01:31, 7 March 2008 (EST)
 * Wild Blow ftw?--Relyk 11:09, 7 March 2008 (EST)
 * Attacking enchanted stancers, too? - zomg!  [[Image:panic_sig.png|19px]]  PANIC!  11:12, 7 March 2008 (EST)


 * [apr] got beat by one of these Frenzy + Pulverizing builds &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 14:02, 12 March 2008 (EDT)

Weakness Variant is inferior to the standard variant imo - although it might be better vs warriors as they are weakened (obviously) - the second KD will not KD if weakness is removed in between, while bash will remove. Also if pulverizing is blocked, heavy blow doesn't KD either so I would stick to the magehunter - crushing - bash combo (believe it even does more damage btw) 77.251.227.254 11:51, 15 March 2008 (EDT)edit: this combo DOES more damage (~5 more) - sorry for the confusion

CONFUSING
This elite doesn't have the typical knockdown animation.. it just has the normal attack animation. SO CONFUSING. Railin 09:02, 7 March 2008 (EST)
 * Yeah, I've just tried this and it's funny :P Didi 09:07, 7 March 2008 (EST)
 * I keep hoping this will be fixed. Not holding my breath though Pluto 14:28, 9 March 2008 (EDT)

Variant
I ran this in RA this morning and it worked well, I got several glad points without a healer in the team:

Works pretty well if you ask me. Just make sure you don't use LC when an ally is near death or under heavy fire. -- Tr33zon ಠ_ಠ (Talk - Contribs) 17:57, 8 March 2008 (EST)


 * Flail > Frenzy on a hammer warrior. LC is a decent self-heal/adrenaline engine now, but triple stance is still meta. Don't forget that gladiator points are not an indication of how well a build works. --[[Image:scottie_bow.jpg|19px]]  Scottie_theNerd  (argue / criticise / complain)  19:47, 8 March 2008 (EST)


 * I understand that Gladiator Points do not equal viability, but in RA, there's simply no room for triple stance. The only 'healing' you'd get without a healer in your team would be from using your vampiric weapon and that doesn't really suffice. Frenzy/Flail is really a matter of preference TBH, I just like Frenzy I guess.-- Tr33zon ಠ_ಠ [[Image:User_Tr33zon_Signature0.gif]] (Talk - Contribs) 19:05, 9 March 2008 (EDT)


 * You won't go very far in any case anyways. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 19:31, 9 March 2008 (EDT)
 * Good warriors will avoid bringing self-heals even in RA. Healing Sig/Lion's Comfort helps relieve pressure, but they're never going to keep you going when you need to, and relying on them means that you are temporarily shutting yourself out. More aggressive players will run triple stance in RA with the concept of doing as much damage as possible. If your team has no healer, it's a race between which time can knock the other senseless first. Relying in Healing Signet/Lion's Comfort only stalls the inevitable, and if you're in a situation where you really need a self-heal, you're most likely on the losing end anyway. Far better to bring Enraging Charge to keep adrenaline up than to rely on a small self-heal every few seconds.
 * Frenzy has its place in Warrior builds. You could say its preference, but Flail is meta for hammer warriors. Knocklock makes up for the speed penalty, whereas nothing makes up for the Frenzy's damage penalty. --[[Image:scottie_bow.jpg|19px]]  Scottie_theNerd  (argue / criticise / complain)  01:34, 10 March 2008 (EDT)
 * I can agree with you on the self-heal issue, certainly. I prefer Frenzy though, because... Well, let's say you've used EC and it's still recharging. You're rushing after an enemy and you use Bull's Strike. You won't net enough adrenaline to use Flail that way, but Frenzy would still be usable and you could apply a small amount of pressure, if not kill a relatively low target. IMO, Frenzy leaves less room for error than Flail. -- Tr33zon ಠ_ಠ [[Image:User_Tr33zon_Signature0.gif]] (Talk - Contribs) 12:39, 10 March 2008 (EDT)
 * 3 adrenaline from EC + 1 from the attack = Flail [[Image:Railin-WoH.jpg‎|19px]] Railin 12:43, 10 March 2008 (EDT)
 * Could as well add Lion's Comfort to variants? God  box   12:53, 10 March 2008 (EDT)
 * Well, let's say you've used EC and it's still recharging. Well, let's say you've used EC and it's still recharging. Well, let's say you've used EC and it's still recharging. Well, let's say you've used EC and it's still recharging. -- Tr33zon ಠ_ಠ [[Image:User_Tr33zon_Signature0.gif]] (Talk - Contribs) 13:54, 12 March 2008 (EDT)
 * Then don't use IAS. You don't have to pummel a guy every time you Bull's Strike him, nor do you have time use Bull Strike on every opportunity. That's playing stupid. Besides, if you're rushing after someone to use Bull's Strike, you must have had 4 adrenaline to active Rush, which means it only takes one hit (Bull's Strike, in other words) to replenish Flail. If you've caught someone in Bull's without enough adrenaline to activate Flail, you're not missing out on much by not using it. --[[Image:scottie_bow.jpg|19px]]  Scottie_theNerd  (argue / criticise / complain)  07:00, 13 March 2008 (EDT)

You guys are complicating things, just smash people and you win &mdash;  Skadiddly [슴Mc슴] Diddles  16:02, 13 March 2008 (EDT)

6 March.
Now it sucks even moar. So NO. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Roxas XIII (contribs) 12:02, 9 March 2008.
 * LOL are you, you know, oblivious? Now it is a spammable knockdown that has a cheap adrenaline cost and, depending on your team, is mostly unblockable. --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  08:04, 9 March 2008 (EDT)
 * Please sign your comments too, you do it with four tildes (~) . God  box   08:11, 9 March 2008 (EDT)

Bad suggestion
A little cheesy and stupid, but a Conjure might ACTUALLY work. It would give them a little extra damage as well as practically constant unblockability. -- Guild of  Deals  07:29, 13 March 2008 (EDT)
 * You crazy foo'! MhS is unblockable if your target has an enchantment on them. - PANIC! [[Image:panic_sig2.jpg|23px]]  pewpewpew!  07:32, 13 March 2008 (EDT)
 * KDs > damage on a hammer bar. Adding conjure means you lose Enraging (so fewer KDs) or drop a KD entirely. If you're playing a hammer bar with two KDs you might as well go shock axe for bulls with shock. Racthoh 17:54, 13 March 2008 (EDT)
 * I'm a shithead. Read the skill wrong after update. Thought it said "If you are under the effects of an Enchantment, this attack is unblockable." My bad. --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  18:04, 13 March 2008 (EDT)
 * Hah, it's easily done considering that PvX is slow to update skill changes. At least it isn't as slow as team builder. Napalm Flame  >=] [[Image:Napalm_Flame_Sig_Image.JPG‎]] (talk)·(contributions) 18:10, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
 * Or you can be smart and refer to something else while looking at changes.
 * Or actually test it out ingame before making a change here. That always helps. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 23:28, 15 March 2008 (EDT)

Mokele Smash
I ran the bar with Mokele insted of Enraging Charge and it worked well. Mokele has the same energy and adrenaline gain with a faster recharge and added +damage. The only thing lose lose is a speed boost but with Rush you are fine. I have tested the build and it worked so you might want to put it under a Variant. Sgt Skills 17:53, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
 * It's there already. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 17:54, 15 March 2008 (EDT)
 * Echarge is there so that you're not stuck sitting around at 66% movespeed for 10 seconds after hammer bash. &mdash; Edru / QQ  14:24, 16 March 2008 (EDT)
 * I prefer sprint on builds with "lose all adrenaline" stuff, but it's probably just me. (it's probably a decent alternative now, having 15rc) – Ichigo 724 [[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 15:54, 16 March 2008 (EDT)
 * Sprint would be the optimal choice with mokele smash... or the old mokele smash at least. Now that's back to 2 adren, not running mokele smash is the optimal choice. Pluto 07:54, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

NERF
Whoo today Magehunter's Smash is 8 adren! Still usable? Justing6 19:48, 20 March 2008 (EDT)
 * I don't see why not. --71.229 19:51, 20 March 2008 (EDT)
 * It's one damn adren more. Why would you even think about it not being usable? [[Image:Railin-WoH.jpg‎|19px]] Railin 19:54, 20 March 2008 (EDT)
 * hammer wars started using Dev in GvG again.--[[Image:Rebirth Infidel.jpg|21px]] aesthetic
 * really? when I obs I still see alot of guilds running this.  Antiarchangel [[Image:Antiarchangel No U Sig.png|19px]] NO U 
 * This is about as good as a Dev Hammer now. Dev Hammer adds Weakness, this is unblockable against enchanted foes.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 13:22, 22 March 2008 (EDT)
 * except that weakness is RC food thou.  Antiarchangel [[Image:Antiarchangel No U Sig.png|19px]] NO U  13:23, 22 March 2008 (EDT)
 * It gets insta covered by DW from Crushing Blow, so I guess not.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 13:24, 22 March 2008 (EDT)
 * lol what? RC = remove all conditions  Antiarchangel [[Image:Antiarchangel No U Sig.png|19px]] NO U  13:25, 22 March 2008 (EDT)
 * Oh wait, I got confused. But anyway, usually the one that carries RC is KD'd.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ [[Image:Panic_srsbsns.gif|37px]] 13:26, 22 March 2008 (EDT)

This was a good update for it. (Pretty sure Izzy took the suggestion from someone else, but I did post the same one on the update page over at the official wiki). The way dev hammer works in GvG, is the weakness isn't really relevant. It's the adrenaline cost that matters (you could take heavy blow on dev hammer, I suppose, but that's usually just doing yourself further disservice, at least as a GvG hammer warrior). Magehunter was superior to dev hammer at the same cost on account of having added utility, where dev hammer basically has none, and a very slight advantage of not fueling RC. This update matches it with Earth shaker, which isn't run all to often right now, but is still a very good hammer elite that has seen a good amount of play in the past. Both Earth Shaker and Magehunter are basically dev hammer, but for one extra adrenaline, you get some neat little utility with it. AoE KDs for earth shaker, which can be a game winner if you catch two out-of-position monks, or manage to catch a big group while you have splinter on you, and unblockable KDs for Magehunter, which can be nice for quarter knocking off a lucky bull's through the block web, taking virtually any target out of the picture during a spike, or linebacking a warrior when you're under pressure and nothing else will go through the block-web (when you're the ones under pressure, that's when enemy block webs will be at their strongest, in most cases).

Pardon the wall of text. Cliffnotes: Magehunter is balanced with dev hammer now. Pluto 07:52, 23 March 2008 (EDT)
 * That's good. Earth Shaker should still be boosted, it's so kewl it needs more abuse. God  box   08:07, 23 March 2008 (EDT)
 * How strong are blockwebs anymore though? Ward Against Melee is nerfed any being replaced, DA paragons aren't seen as much anymore...the most dangerous blockweb now is an Aegis chain, and between a Mesmer and Ranger on the typical GvG team, Aegis is easy to pick off.  ANet seems to be doing its best to kill party-wide blockway as much as they can, so unless it becomes meta for each player to carry a block stance, this seems to be a fancy way of getting around Aegis, in which case I'd rather run MoD on the mesmer.  The only thing this is really worth pounding through is Guardian or the rare SoD.  For 8 adrenaline, I'd rather run Earthshaker for the possible AoE disruption than a single-target knockdown with a bonus that becomes less and less important as ANet tries to "balance" more and more blocking methods.  Gaze Of Balthazar 20:24, 23 March 2008 (EDT)
 * Ward Against Melee is irrelevant, since it's not an enchantment, and neither is DA. The fact is that Aegis, Guardian, and SoD are popular enough that this becomes great, even with the one adrenaline req over Dev Hammer. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 21:33, 23 March 2008 (EDT)

Major Rune?
Couldn't the main bar have a major rune of strength to hit the +4 adrenaline breakpoint for E-charge? Marthis Toptier 12:34, 20 May 2008 (EDT)Marthis Toptier
 * It's probably just me, but I'd rather have 35 extra hp. – Ichigo 724 [[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 18:09, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Also, I asked that question with TA/RA in mind, since I mostly play arenas, but I guess since you make builds for the highest level of play that they're tagged in, you go by GvG here. And as far as I could guess, the 35 health on a warrior matters much for for GvG than TA. Marthis Toptier 00:36, 22 May 2008 (EDT)Marthis Toptier

Headgear
Would it possibly be worth running a strength +1 headgear inorder to get the extra adrenaline from E-Charge? Is the damage lost that great, and if it is, is it worth having to hit one extra time for a knockdown? Luminarus 05:31, 3 July 2008 (EDT)
 * I'd run a Major Rune of Strength before I would lower Hammer any. [[Image:mightymouse.gif|25px]] moush 17:29, 17 July 2008 (EDT)
 * Going 14 Strength and 13 Hammer is pretty common now. You use a Hammer for the KDs (and to get around Frenzy, which can be a detriment). The extra adren from Enraging is considered more important by a lot of people, it gives you more KDs and gets your KD built faster in a skirmish situation. Zuranthium 04:41, 3 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Why not just run a freaking major? —ǘŋ  Ɛxɩsƫ  07:10, 27 September 2008 (EDT)
 * The most important reason for 14 strength is so that Sentinel's still works in a weakness-heavy meta. PVX-RustyTheMesmer 10:17, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

life enchantment
magehunter's>flail->lift enchantment->crushing blow->hammer bash=one less enchantment and automatic quaterknock :p.EDIT:scratch the auto qk i just tryed it--Simpson man 01:50, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * you're supposed to run that with expunge anyways --Mafaraxas 05:32, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * i see what you did there --Mafaraxas 05:32, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
 * LIFT HAMMER! I actually said something like that up the page I think (or maybe it was on the dev hammer page), tis real strong. [[Image:Frostysig9000.jpg|19px]]Frosty  the <font color="Blue">Admin 09:44, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Yeti Smash
Needs to be a variant for hammer bash? does the same thing, with 1 adren more and 1s actiavtion. Under flail, u can use magehunter then twice then yeti, and get a certain Qknock as under flail yeti hits 0.1s after the 1st KD ends. PVX-Zuko 13:38, March 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yea but if the deep wound is removed you get no KD :< --<font color="Black">Frosty  [[Image:Frostcharge.jpg|19px]] 13:58, March 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * I like hammer bash because when the enemy prot is retarded and uses aura or whatnot AFTER the first KD, then you can just go and KD somebody else. I know conditions are everywhere and yeti can usually KD somebody else but i like the fact bash lets you KD anybody you like (not counting prots etc). -- SteamyIgloo! Steamy's Igloo.gif 22:59, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

protstrike
Really should be mainbar. The best reason to run magehunter is that you're running a spike with some kind of deep strip, and a twitch is by far the best option for the variable slot. --Lemming 06:44, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Done-- Steamy .. x 10:27, June 4, 2010 (UTC)

cm?
Not that it matters a lot, but do people magehunter's in FA? I wouldn't think so but I'm a jq shitter and it's never there.--Liability 03:18, September 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * nobody uses melee in cm--Oskar 14:37, September 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * JQ, no. Fort Aspenwood, yes they do.-- Ikimono "Dakka Dakka Dakka" [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png|24px]] 15:49, September 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * All kinds of baddies run melee in CM. They're fucking terrible, but they still run it.--TahiriVeila 15:54, September 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * melee ownsss in JQ! Hammer works in FA kurz though. --Liability 15:56, September 9, 2010 (UTC)

Archiving
Really rare despite shield guardian. Should archive it and put magehunter as elite slot variant in the devham build. --Krschkr (talk) 20:23, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
 * If it's viable enough to be listed as a variant on dev at all, then it wouldn't make sense to archive this. Either it's not run and should be archived or we somehow are presenting it as a viable build (we don't like having builds circumvent vetting by being listed as variants on a more popular build). If it's niche but still run occasionally, separate page can stay. As I understand the argument of long ago, Magehunter's is taken specifically for guaranteed backline knock on spikes while Dev is more suited to pressure - making them different enough to be listed separate in our build database. Toraen (talk) 10:03, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Basically dev ham is superior to magehunter's because it costs 7 adrenaline. Hence it's meta, weakness is just a nice additional side effect. People play magehunter rarely if they're annoyed by blocks, but even in pure spike builds people usually rather play devham despite the risk to be blocked. After all it's 7/8 the same build with just a slightly different elite skill. Imo putting this as a rare variant to devham is justified and not avoiding getting its own vets, at least judging from GvG. --Krschkr (talk) 12:04, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
 * There's actually a slight shift in the meta and magehunter's smash becomes more common again. Still pretty much the same build, though. Even Sync says that it's a matter of taste whether to run the build with devastating hammer or magehunter's smash. So how about this: We merge the builds or drop one and keep a general hammer warrior build page with devham/magehunter's interchangeable. --Krschkr (talk) 21:02, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
 * We'll go with that then. Normally a merge would mean deleting this page, but I'll just archive this in case it needs to be separated later for any reason. -Toraen (talk) 14:40, 2 November 2018 (UTC)