Archive talk:A/W Knocklock Palm Spiker

The notes says 8 dagger attacks, which is correct.... but just under 340 AR-ignoring damage? Maybe my math is wrong, but here's what I got: PS= 58, + Trampling*2 = (19*2) = 38, + Lotus = 34, + Horns otOx = (10*2) = 20, + Falling Spideyy~ = 34, + Twisting Fangs = (19*2) = 38. (and apparently, the notes say, use PS again..so another 58 I guess).
 * So here's the summary: 58 + 38 + 34 + 20 + 34 + 38 = 222 (from one chain), and add to that another PS... so 212 + 58 = 280. And 8 life steals - 8 * 3 = 24. Total? 304. What's the 340 o.O? Deep wound reduces health by 1/5th..but no more than 100, I believe. It's not really "damage", definitely not AR -ignoring...more like HP ignoring (if HP > 500). Deep wound isn't armor related..so let's not consider it as damage. Now..that brings the AR ignoring damage to 304 then...where's the extra 36? (Did he use another PS o.O..that would be 3 PS's then...but then it wouldn't be under 340, it would be over..) If this was tested on an AR 60 or something... and the damage totaled 340, then that's not AR ignoring....... AR ignoring would mean aside from normal daggers attacks (for instance, if the AR was theoretically infinite... or just high enough to make physical damage ~ 0) .... the "extra" damage is AR ignoring, i.e., skill damage (not affected by Flurry). I hope he's not considering conditions (poison, bleeding) etc even though they are on the borderline of AR-ignoring damage ...but not exactly hardcore damage, just a degen. Besides, the attack could go on for 5 seconds, or for 8 seconds, or some random time...so the "damage" from degen is highly user-defined, and yes, even 2 seconds make a difference because at -7 degen, (14 DPS)..that's 28 HP in 2 secs. or 56 in 4 secs. Well..you get the idea. So.. how did you (whoever wrote the number 340), get the figure? Something is fishy s: - Anon, 20:09, April 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * I've got 222 armor-ignoring damage+DW+degen, too, but using Palm Strike a second time (after the chain, like the note says), it deals 280 armor-ignoring damage+DW+degen. Eight attacks with Vampiric daggers adds another 24 damage, yielding 304 armor-ignoring damage+DW+degen. Nvm, you already went over all of that. XD Anywho, your math is right. You don't have to include the degen into your numbers, though, because it's accounted for in "just under 340 armor ignoring, DW, poison, bleeding, and 8x dagger attacks". Perhaps it was a typo and they meant 304, or their math was just wrong. >.> ــѕт.  мıкε  20:38, April 15, 2010 (UTC)

Told you guys i would find a decent palm strike build.-- Ikimono I know my Paragons 10:15, 8 December 2008 (EST)
 * Sorry but i'm sure everyone basically hates Palm Strike and say it'll never work. Also you forgot the Usage paragraph and correct the equipment.DiamondTheory 11:08, 8 December 2008 (EST)
 * will fix.-- Ikimono I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 11:19, 8 December 2008 (EST)
 * Not a bad palmstrike build. --F rosty 11:13, 8 December 2008 (EST)

[build prof=a/w dagg=12+1+1 crit=12+1][leaping mantis sting][lotus strike][twisting fangs][palm strike][blades of steel][frenzy][dash][resurrection signet][/build] obaby, no kd tho :O-- Christmas Relyk  11:16, 8 December 2008 (EST)
 * not bad, but palm strike has an after cast and is not effected by Frenzy, so that build would give a player time to possibly recover.-- Ikimono I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 11:19, 8 December 2008 (EST)
 * Put Flurry on main bar? It's a better option than Frenzy while playing Random Arena, and it also gives you the option to take Assassin's Remedy/Critical Defense. Banaantje 11:19, 8 December 2008 (EST)
 * You can always dash after them--[[Image:Relyk chtistmas2.jpg|20px]] Christmas Relyk  11:21, 8 December 2008 (EST)
 * well, I've got flurry in the variants, as well as AR. Personal preference really, but i'll put Flurry on the mainbar if asked echoed a few times.-- Ikimono I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 11:31, 8 December 2008 (EST)
 * Tag it for hb imo--[[Image:Relyk chtistmas2.jpg|20px]] Christmas Relyk  11:41, 8 December 2008 (EST)
 * Think it would work there? really? i havent done any HB in a while so..-- Ikimono I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 11:54, 8 December 2008 (EST)

Tested with Flurry, there was no visable difference between the two's killing time. Flurry goes on mainbar.-- Ikimono I know my Paragons 12:46, 8 December 2008 (EST)
 * *meekly* I like Palm Strike... =.=  Also, this isn't bad, I suppose.  Palm Strike is always a good thing to have for just a burst of random damage. The double falling chain is a manly bonus.  All-around pretty solid chain.  Someone is ALWAYS going to say "omfg after-cast" but I could see this working in RA, HB, and even AB when not attacking bunched up NPCs. My only regret is that you beat me to the first good Palm Strike sin build that will probably be vetted.  :P KaHasuken 21:19, 8 December 2008 (EST)
 * I don't think this would work well in AB, at least not for capping shrines. I prefer AoE damage for AB and this lacks it. But surprisingly the aftercast has served, in my RA testing, to my advantage. As soon as a stance monk gets hit by Palm Strike, they 90% of the time activate their defensive stance to block the oncoming chain. Due to the small aftercast, it gave me enough time to hit escape to wait for their stance to end, and then go into my attack chain after counting to 4. So that was an unexpected boon on it's part.-- Ikimono I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 23:11, 8 December 2008 (EST)

Shall I move it to testing now or have a few more people look at it?-- Ikimono I know my Paragons 23:12, 8 December 2008 (EST)
 * Wait for rawar or god to use the rapestick--[[Image:Relyk chtistmas2.jpg|20px]] Christmas Relyk  23:26, 8 December 2008 (EST)
 * but frosty okayed it...fine i'll wait for godbox or Rawr...-- Ikimono I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 01:11, 9 December 2008 (EST)

I've got the urge to say that this would be improved upon just by mainbarring Assassin's Remedy and using Golden Phoenix Strike, which IS affected by IAS and saves the elite slot. Having the first skill in a chain of 5 be unblockable isn't doing you a whole lot. -- Shazam  The  Snake      hissssssssssss 01:40, 9 December 2008 (EST)
 * I usually lol pretty hard at assassins who rely on assasin's remedy for their spikes. Rip enchantment is fucking everywhere, andy time i see an assassin using Assassin's Remedy, i immediately rip it, rendering that assassin "Lol hittin you wif mah daggers". The point of this build was to have something that wasn't susceptible to enchantment removal, is able to spike a lot, and isn't a build that is already in circulation. i have had Assassin's remedy instead of dash and that has worked decently, but dash's ability to get out and into combat quickly is one of those boons that cant be ignored.-- Ikimono I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 02:05, 9 December 2008 (EST)
 * and there's a bit more than just "unblockable" that is going for Palm Strike. It's also an offhand that delivers a high packet of damage, with a good recharge time, that can be used even when incapacitated from anti-melee.-- Ikimono I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 02:09, 9 December 2008 (EST)

Shameless bump for the companion cube and rawar.../further discussion.-- Ikimono I know my Paragons 16:00, 9 December 2008 (EST)
 * wow, thought i would get at least 1 notice, perhaps it was too early in the day last time.-- Ikimono I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 22:40, 9 December 2008 (EST)
 * You needa put an "elitist" timezone over the GMT one on your computer clock. =P -- Shazam  The  Snake    [[Image:Shazam_The_Snake.png]]  hissssssssssss 01:22, 10 December 2008 (EST)
 * hehheh...perhaps i can just sneak this onto the mainpage to get it noticed more...-- Ikimono I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 09:03, 10 December 2008 (EST)
 * its ok. its just another meh sin spike build. they all get very very very repetitive :) and no it got noticed!Saomachuen 10:19, 10 December 2008 (EST)

Should it be moved into testing?
I don't think this build can be made any better really, it works well enough for where it is marked for and the skills cant really be improved greatly. The spike is pretty sturdy, and the build works pretty well still with Assassin's Remedy instead of Dash. Personally i prefer Dash and just like to put a rune of clarity (or whatever one reduces blind duration..) So I'll make a note that having one of those runes is a good idea. You only trade off 10Hp anyways for the rune so big whoop there. Other than that, i don't really see a way this can really be Improved in any significant way.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">I know my Paragons 10:24, 10 December 2008 (EST)
 * Get rid of falling spider so you can bring some actual utility--[[Image:Relyk chtistmas2.jpg|20px]] Christmas Relyk  10:58, 10 December 2008 (EST)
 * And make it not a spike build? you use both falling's in a single spike. with a 33% IAS you can get both attacks in for the time that an opponent is on the ground. + there are plenty of assassin builds that don't have utility or have very little.(ikimono)--72.189.85.14 12:59, 10 December 2008 (EST)

Wow this thing is amazing! I love it! my new fav build thanks to whoever made it ^^ <font color="Joan">Joan <font color="Red">Sandbox  13:13, 10 December 2008 (EST)
 * your welcome :P-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 13:36, 10 December 2008 (EST)

QQ about utility. The most popular assassin build of all time, the SP sin way back when, had no utility. Id also like to say that i like this build. Palm strike looks to be successful--70.22.228.86 13:23, 10 December 2008 (EST)

Moved to testing to either get it out the door or voted.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">I know my Paragons 15:36, 10 December 2008 (EST)

...god damn, just wrong, votes again...
Setting aside skill bias, let me point out a few of the reasons why this build is "better" than several others: Does not require an enchantment (rofl rip enchantment is meta), Does not require Build up of Adrenaline, and it Does not require a condition (dismiss cackles hi). It's only actual heel is it requires Horns of the Ox to activate properly, which it does 90% of the time if you're not God-Awful-Stupid. Taking into account these pros, the votes that have this build confused with something else probably should be purged with acid salt. But for the time being, seeing as how another one of my (should be at least Other rated builds) has gone to the trolls of PvX, I'll just keep loling as I kill off monks using Shield Bash to stop me using Palm Strike, Necromancers with a last ditch Insidious Parasite because i had enough patience to wait for insidious to wear off the first time, and using this build to slap palyers in the face saying "see, palm strike actually works and isn't complete utter tripe, I myself had my doubts, but who'da have thunk?"-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">I know my Paragons 22:59, 10 December 2008 (EST)
 * QQ78.20.153.111 14:45, 11 December 2008 (EST)
 * Change horns of the ox for trampling ox, it should really pwn now man! <font color="Joan">Joan <font color="Red">Sandbox  21:00, 11 December 2008 (EST)

Well now this^ makes more sense because of the skill buff. the 0-0-0's especially the ones saying no snare need to be changed.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">I know my Paragons 22:27, 11 December 2008 (EST)

Buff
[build prof=A/W name="Flailing Palm Strike" dag=12+1+1 cri=12+1][Palm Strike][Trampling Ox][Falling Lotus Strike][Falling Spider][Twisting Fangs][Flurry][Dash][Resurrection Signet][/build] use this &rarr;<small style="font-variant:small-caps;font-family:Felix Titling;border-style:solid;border-width:2px;border-color:gold;background-color:black;padding:0px 5px 1px 6px;"> J.J.  berks   (contrib)  21:03, 11 December 2008 (EST)
 * am i missing something? cause Trampling Ox still requires (or at least i'm outta the update loop) cripple. and seeing as how there's no cripple in that build anywhere...i'm confused. Did palm strike get a buff or something?-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 21:07, 11 December 2008 (EST)
 * Yes, it now applies cripple. [[image:Thunda_Sig_2.jpg‎ |19px]]<font color="Orange" face="Harrington" size="3">Thunda 21:08, 11 December 2008 (EST)
 * Yah, go go with this. It really owns now, just trying it atm is SO much easier to spike and palm strike recharges faster now... it's good thing <font color="Joan">Joan <font color="Red">Sandbox  21:09, 11 December 2008 (EST)
 * oh my god i didn't see the recharge decrease! This build is completely viable now.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 21:13, 11 December 2008 (EST)
 * So all my Palm Strike Build are pro now? :D.--User:Glutton

Votes
Need to be wiped. The buff to Palm Strike makes it Amazing.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">I know my Paragons 21:12, 11 December 2008 (EST)
 * Seriously, just go ahead and vote again this is just beyond amazing, Horns was a hassle that was the only down in this build... take it off now is great. <font color="Joan">Joan <font color="Red">Sandbox  21:19, 11 December 2008 (EST)

this
[build prof=Assassin/Warrior CriticalStrikes=12+1 DaggerMastery=12+1+1][Palm Strike][Trampling Ox][Falling Lotus Strike][Horns of the Ox][Falling Spider][Twisting Fangs][Flurry][Resurrection Signet][/build] sick thing is, if you miss an offhand, you can just palm strike again and keep on going lmao.-- reason '''.  decrystallized '  I frenzy-healsig. '' 22:05, 11 December 2008 (EST)
 * chain takes ~6.25 seconds, has high damage, snare, dual kd, and disgusting flexibility.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized   I frenzy-healsig.  22:13, 11 December 2008 (EST)
 * (EC)Flail>Flurry since Crippling &rarr;<small style="font-variant:small-caps;font-family:Felix Titling;border-style:solid;border-width:2px;border-color:gold;background-color:black;padding:0px 5px 1px 6px;"> J.J.  berks   (contrib)  22:14, 11 December 2008 (EST)
 * I honestly have never missed both of the Fallings, and see below the build for IAS optionals.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 22:21, 11 December 2008 (EST)
 * KD lock on a spike that flexible is damn sexy.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized   I frenzy-healsig.  23:44, 11 December 2008 (EST)
 * Meh, horns of the ox fails more often than you can think, it was a down side from the last version of this build, the two falling strikes are quite appealing and I've never failed with them, unless I have my IAS reduced or no IAS <font color="Joan">Joan <font color="Red">Sandbox  00:02, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * it only fails if you're bad with it, and even if it does, then guess what? palm strike->Twisting Fangs.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized    I frenzy-healsig.  00:09, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * well, fainthearted fucks the spike up. But that isn't too common now days. More often people just take Insidious Parasite. but then now you can, like you said, palm strike again and use fangs.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 08:57, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * tbh anti-melee fucks up any melee.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized   I frenzy-healsig.  12:30, 12 December 2008 (EST)


 * Perhaps we/I should make Dash optional as well in favor for keeping a slot open for either AR or Horns of the Ox...seems pretty reasonable to me.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 23:22, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * main bar IMO. you can always catch someone, even without IAS, and once they're caught, it's stronger.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized    I frenzy-healsig.  00:10, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * Testing this a bit in RA, so far it works amazingly... as long as you aren't getting attacked. Rangers tend to have annoying blocks too, but when you can get the spike out it's murder in a can. --141.154.116.101 20:29, 13 December 2008 (EST)(Unfaithful Catalyst)

Buff2
I see some people saying that there are no snares; I suggest you look up the new functionality of Palm Strike before voting. As well as try it.<font color="Joan">Joan <font color="Red">Sandbox  00:07, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * The votes are old. [[Image:Zefirsig.jpg|19px]] God Zefir  00:09, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * they are still being counted and the build has been completely changed by plam's cripple <font color="Joan">Joan <font color="Red">Sandbox  00:11, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * Wait for the voters to get online...people do sleep. [[Image:Zefirsig.jpg|19px]] God Zefir  00:15, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * I've notified the people who gave 0-0-0's so hopefully they will change their votes.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 00:54, 12 December 2008 (EST)

Suggestion
Since Palm strike recharges every 4 secs, maybe switch falling spider for BoS for more damage? (Palm => TO => Lotus => Twisting => Palm => BoS) Dre 04:58, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * Could be possible... but the aftercast from Palm Strike may give a healer time to recover...but against non-healers I can see that work pretty well. but then you've got only 3 dagger attacks recharging, so Death Blossom could be better. + you could get a lot of DPS from Palm Strike and Death Blossom with zealous daggers.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 08:42, 12 December 2008 (EST)


 * BoS counts itself as recharging.Dre 09:27, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * Maybe you could add a little self heal, or find yourself a personal monk :P. User:Glutton
 * Generally pretty common. especially with all the monks testing out the new elites in RA.--66.192.104.13 11:13, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * Makes it a bit slower but the extra damage may come in handy, may be put under variants? I like dash personally but the extra damage sounds more like personal choice :) <font color="Joan">Joan <font color="Red">Sandbox  11:15, 12 December 2008 (EST)

AB
Who tagged this build for AB...-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">I know my Paragons 12:58, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * Why's that a problem? Spaggage  talk  13:01, 12 December 2008 (EST)

stop being so fucking bad
and take reason.decrystallized's build. Smurf Ohai 16:34, 12 December 2008 (EST) seriously.
 * uh, this works just as well. you just use palm strike after twisting.--72.189.85.14 19:33, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * it's a question of dual knocklocks being sexy, not a little bit more damage.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized   I frenzy-healsig.  20:41, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * while i have to agree with what you say, why not just kill in 1 KD with the current build?--66.192.104.13 20:46, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * there is no such thing as a spike that always kills. period.  but a spike with dual kd is more likely to kill, and rather more useful if it doesn't.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized    I frenzy-healsig.  21:06, 12 December 2008 (EST)

Removed the whole retarted dual offhand idea and added BoS and Impale. Now it's got a good amount of damage and DW. -- 21:24, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * wrong ... BoS + three attacks.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized   I frenzy-healsig.  21:41, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * Well, the previous build had the dual Falling attacks crammed into one Trampling, BoS + Impale offers more damage and still gives DW. -- 21:46, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * and the build that i suggest has two kd's and moar damage.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized   I frenzy-healsig.  21:52, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * If you're using this chain, Death Blossom would be better, no? ~6 less damage on the single target for some AoE damage and shorter recharge for Palm Strike -> DB combos in between spikes. -- The preceding srsly srs comment was added by Itokaru   22:00, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * yes, it would .. but we're now talking about two completely different chains. split?-- reason ' . ' decrystallized    I frenzy-healsig.  22:11, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * Swapping BoS for Death Blossom is a completely different chain? -- The preceding srsly srs comment was added by Itokaru   22:11, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * no, but the idea of a 3 attack skill spammable chain and a longer kill chain is completely different.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized   I frenzy-healsig.  22:39, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * Oh, the double falling chain. Yeah. Splitting that would be good, imo. -- The preceding srsly srs comment was added by Itokaru   23:03, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * By all means i guess you could do that. there's no reason why you couldn't. but currently this build works fine as is. you can 90% of the time get both falling's in, unless you get hexed with Faintheart which screws over any melee spike. and it allows for pretty versitile and varied timing in your spikes. and twisting fangs is better for Deep Wound than Impale is. To me this seems like pure squabble for the cause of squabble. a person wanting a build under their name and not someone else's.--74.124.198.60 23:09, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * But yea, Palm Strike and Death Blossom is and always has been good for doing random chunk damage.--74.124.198.60 23:11, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * It's a debate between a stronger spike vs faster recharging spike. -- The preceding srsly srs comment was added by Itokaru   23:15, 12 December 2008 (EST)

WOOOOOH...
who the fuck touched the build article...it's terrible now.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">I know my Paragons 23:12, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * isn't there something about reaching an agreement before changing a voted build...?-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 23:14, 12 December 2008 (EST)

"from above" >Perhaps we/I should make Dash optional as well in favor for keeping a slot open for either AR or Horns of the Ox...seems pretty reasonable to me.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">I know my Paragons 23:23, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * It was better than the shitsicle it was before. Only idiots run dual Falling with 1 KD. -- 23:24, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * Lol, BB sin uses two falling attacks and one KD. :> -- The preceding srsly srs comment was added by  Itokaru   23:25, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * That's the exception. I meant with a 2 sec KD. BoS deals around +15 damage more and hits twice. -- 23:26, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * And then you toss in Impale for slower spiking. And this preforms fine using 2 Fallings in 1 spike.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 23:30, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * You can kill shit without Impale too. Dual falling is retarted, stop being terrible. I'd rather have my spike recharge 3 seconds slower and get more damage than have it recharge 3 seconds faster and get a significantly less amount of damage. -- 23:31, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * Then use that...? your vote is also obviously a troll vote so please be smart enough to remove it and save admins the time.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 23:34, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * I'm just voting down a build that someone constant reverts to make it bad. Seriously, you're bad at Guild Wars. And that's coming from me. -- 23:35, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * And perhaps since were in a confusing frenzy here, read the build as it is right now. Horns of the Ox is in Optionals, making it Reason's build. As I have said on previous builds, Please read the page before you vote on it.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 23:37, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * Importantly, i cant test the other idea that you are pressing right now. When i get a chance later tonight I will go test it myself and see if there's a notable difference. if there is then I'll re-write the build, or add it as a secondary Variant. Also, being brilliant is not being bad.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 23:39, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * But being bad is being bad. 23:40, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * But Bad to the Bone is such a cool song...and this is so bad it's manly, shaves with a rock, and is married to a German beer waitress.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 23:41, 12 December 2008 (EST)

Though i do have to thank who added rush, i was about to add that, so thanks whoever saved me time.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">I know my Paragons 23:44, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * Was me. Critical Defenses left me feeling not so happy. -- 23:45, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * Ok, im settling this by testing on the master of damage. With the knocklock build above and with vamp dags, i did 461 damage over 7 seconds, for 65 DPS.  Life [[Image:Aura of Faith.jpg|19px]] 23:53, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * With the current build on the page, i did 358 damage over 5 seconds, for 71 DPS. Both of these were done with Flurry.  Life [[Image:Aura of Faith.jpg|19px]] 23:55, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * And finally, with GOD's build, i did 403 damage over 5 seconds, for 80 damage per second. Once again with flurry and vamps.  Life [[Image:Aura of Faith.jpg|19px]] 23:58, 12 December 2008 (EST)

In that case, knocklock > this. http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:A/any_Falling_Palm_Knocklock 5-5-5 NOW =). Disciple 23:57, 12 December 2008 (EST)
 * No DW, no IAS.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized   I frenzy-healsig.  00:04, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * counter-intuitively, you will make their health drop further AND faster with the one I posted, AND make them harder to heal.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized   I frenzy-healsig.  00:05, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Yeah, I know. A few switches with variants (That are already posted) creates the same bar you posted. Disciple 00:13, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * making it a dupe ...-- reason ' . ' decrystallized   I frenzy-healsig.  00:14, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Of? The bar you posted here? The variants were already there before you posted your bar AND before Trampling was switched in for HoTO on this build. Wouldn't that make this the dupe? Disciple 00:16, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * no, check timestamps. anyway, there's not point in having two builds that close ... as it is, the one you linked to won't get vetted without IAS and DW, and if you change it to have them, then it's just current variants, (and should be mainbar) on this.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized    I frenzy-healsig.  00:18, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * ^ he is the one who called my attention to the buff and the use of trampling ox.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 01:25, 13 December 2008 (EST)

After Testing BoS + Impale VS Dual Falling VS Dual OX
Using Zealous Daggers and Flurry for testing, and a stopwatch for timing:


 * For BoS + Impale: netted a Weaker Spike than Dual Fallings, Killing time averaged 7 seconds, while Dual Falling's Netted 6 Seconds. Dual Fallings also netted more energy post spike, allowing for more Palm Strike and Flurry spamming. On armor 60 targets, the average was incredibly close. on Armor 100 targets, Dual Fallings delivered better results due to it being effected by IAS constantly past Palm Strike.
 * In Conclusion, Dual Fallings killed Faster than BoS + Impale verion.


 * For Dual Oxen: Netted the same speed of kills as Dual Fallings and did not need to resort to using Palm Strike after attack skills. except on 100 and 80 armor.
 * In conclusion, Dual Fallings netted the same time and result with less skills consumed on the skill bar.


 * In short, if you want a possibly more reliable spike, I suggest using Dual Oxen if you want a more compressed skill bar i suggest using Dual Fallings If you want a 1-2 second slower spike take BoS + Impale

Thus concludes my testing.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">I know my Paragons 01:24, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * you may now adjust your vote Guild of Deals.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 01:28, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * I had already done testing with all three -_-. Scroll up lol  Life [[Image:Aura of Faith.jpg|19px]] 01:30, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * yea, but i actually timed them on the armors.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 01:45, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * and out of the 3, BoS + Impale was the least effective and versatile.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 01:46, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * Dual fallings were only slightly slower than Dual Ox, but offered more bar compression.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 01:57, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Added Death Blossom as an optional so people would get off the build's case and stop making builds that are 1 skill different.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">I know my Paragons 04:20, 13 December 2008 (EST)

And looking at all that testing you failed to realise that with PS -> Trampling -> Falling -> DB you can spike every 8 seconds, bad players are bad. --<font color="Black">F rosty 04:23, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * Optionals...zzz...utility...zzz...5AM in mourning now...zzz.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 05:10, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * I'm going to be messing with different optionals later so i'll see what can be the most interesting combinations...just for the fuck of it.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 05:14, 13 December 2008 (EST)

this is bad
dual falling is pointless, use:

if you just want to zzzspike

or

with Frenzy/Flurry and a utility skill (Disciplined, Sins Remedy, HotO for KDing in the chains downtime etc) if you want to keep a shorter chain 86.143.22.113 06:43, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * you can all revote when it has a non-bad chain [[Image:Cute McMonkey.png]]Tab 07:17, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * I was going to do BoS + Impale but got constantly reverted. Smurf wants Reason's chain, so that seems pretty better now. -- 07:19, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * bos/impale works too [[Image:Cute McMonkey.png]]Tab 07:21, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * I was trying to tell this ikimomo guy to look at this Archive:A/W Palm Strike Spiker, but well, pvx and stuff... --<font color="Black">F rosty 07:24, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * okay, we've got a short-chain spammer with DB->Impale, which is sexy. so ... this IMO should be either well-ed, or else take a stronger chain mainbar.  I would suggest the one that i have been suggesting.  changing mainbar if no objections.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized    I frenzy-healsig.  08:57, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * In any case, BoS + Impale did less damage than any of the versions being needlessly argued about when they have already been voted in and people have accepted them.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 11:50, 13 December 2008 (EST)

well
needs one, it's not as good as the other one <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">08:21, 13 December 2008  
 * patience young one, it will be.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized   I frenzy-healsig.  08:58, 13 December 2008 (EST)

trial
it's now back in trial with a revamped chain. sufficiently different from the other Palm Striker to merit its own article, dual KD, high damage, ability to resume chain if interrupted, no energy problems, and 15r. discuss.-- reason '''.  decrystallized '  I frenzy-healsig. '' 10:11, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * They won't have gotten up from the first KD in time to use the second. [[Image:Tai_sig_Image_78.png]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">11:46, 13 December 2008 
 * surprisingly, they will. i know, because i've tested it.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized    I frenzy-healsig.  11:46, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * BAR COMPRESSION WAS BETTER WITH DUAL FALLINGS. THIS HAS BEEN DISCUSSED.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 11:47, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * i have too, and if you have the IAS up and they aren't moving, you'll hit the second KD when they're still on the ground. happens with the shove sin aswell. [[Image:Tai_sig_Image_78.png]] <small style="font-variant:small-caps"><font face="verdana" color="black" variant="small caps">11:48, 13 December 2008 
 * shove is three seconds. it works for me :/-- reason ' . ' decrystallized    I frenzy-healsig.  11:49, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * ^I ran into this problem in RA as well. Or the classic, counter by having someone back line.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 11:53, 13 December 2008 (EST)

I find this works better without the IAS for knocklocking. Selket Shadowdancer 12:03, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * Or, qstep between attacks to turn the kd into a quarterknock and stop using being terrible as an excuse. Hammer warriors take an IAS because it allows you to qknock, taking one on a dagger sin doesn't magically make it impossible to quarterknock. It's a 5 attack skill chain, you will want an IAS. - Misery  Is  Friendly  [[image:Misery Dog obaby.gif|19px]] 12:12, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * ehm, if they backline you and HotO fails, then Iron Palm->Twisting Fangs. it's not hard.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized    I frenzy-healsig.  16:41, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * I never said it was impossible, neither am I making any excuses. Stop being an ass to get your point across. Selket Shadowdancer 07:49, 14 December 2008 (EST)

Double KD Variant
[build prof=Assassin/Warrior CriticalStrikes=12+1 DaggerMastery=12+1+1][Palm Strike][Flurry][Trampling Ox][Falling Lotus Strike][Twisting Fangs][Bull's Strike][Dash][Resurrection Signet][/build]

Find a moving target.
 * Spike Bulls -> 1-5
 * Dash to kite/catch/run
 * Rez for fallen allies. This way u practically avoid palms aftercast. Gunnm 12:39, 13 December 2008 (EST)

That is pretty fucking bad.  ɟoʇuɐʌ ʎʞɔıɹ  12:42, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * Agreed.--72.189.85.14 12:46, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * i've actually tried starting chains with bulls before ... doesn't work.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized   I frenzy-healsig.  16:44, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * with how buggy bull's has been with my use of it, i hardly ever actually "rely" upon it. it's pretty much an "oh it actually worked this time. I've had people who were standing perfectly still for a good period of time when hit with bulls, (no other KD's present), randomly fell over...point being, it's god aweful for starting chains.-- Ikimono <font color ="Teal">I know Paragons. Shut up and listen [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 19:54, 31 December 2008 (EST)

This is better >
This is fucking better than the other the dual Kd is just great since u will most likely hit whit the last dagger attack on bulls and get a sexy qknock and then their dead when they get upp :> Massive   12:57, 13 December 2008 (EST)

Death Blossom combo
Tried, creates stupid pressure. Not as good a spike, but the pressure is that of MS/DS Spam with added cripple. I fold.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">I know my Paragons 15:03, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * think you mean PS/DB :P. but you're right, that build is stupidly good, and very high pressure (the cripple adds almost as much pressure as the damage, tbh).  but that's more of a pressure build with a mini-spike (like what the GG was, god rest its soul), whereas this, i think, can be a strong spiker, and a 15 recharge really isn't unreasonable at all.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized    I frenzy-healsig.  16:47, 13 December 2008 (EST)
 * yep. and like 70% of assassin builds have a 15 second recharging spike skill somewhere in it.-- Ikimono <font color ="Silver">I know my Paragons [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 02:19, 14 December 2008 (EST)
 * BUt a spamable 70dmg whit snare, is sexy during cooldown :> Massive  [[Image:Image-Massive Sig.jpg|19px]] 06:31, 14 December 2008 (EST)
 * Thats because the 2 unconditional dws have a 15 sec recharge--[[Image:Relyk chtistmas2.jpg|20px]] Christmas Relyk  22:11, 14 December 2008 (EST)
 * yes. you either using Golden Fang and get a conditional DW and no bonus damage qq, or only get it every other spike (impale+spam chain), or spike on 15r.  sux, don't it?-- reason ' . ' decrystallized    I frenzy-healsig.  00:24, 15 December 2008 (EST)

gvg tag
I've seen this build in GvG. We should add the tag. Vashan 05:51, 20 December 2008 (EST)
 * it's cause it's good everywhere...-- Ikimono <font color ="Teal">I know Paragons. Shut up and listen [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 19:51, 31 December 2008 (EST)

AHEM
BACKBREAKER SIN IS STILL BETTER THAN THIS GAY SHIT
 * sign ur comments plz.-- reason ' . ' decrystallized   I frenzy-healsig.  04:40, 23 December 2008 (EST)
 * In terms of raw power, I agree. However Palm Strike can be extremely flexible. You can go straight to any of the dual attacks and it has a recharge of only four seconds. It can also be used more defensively as a snare. While BB is extremely powerful, you pay for it by having to charge up 10 adrenaline and pray that your target does not get protted. Shinomori 21:15, 23 December 2008 (EST)
 * not to mention 12 hammer mastery just for 1 skill  B y  a  k  k  o  [[Image:User_Byakko_Byakkopaw.png|User Page]] 05:52, 27 December 2008 (EST)
 * Backbreaker is still more potent, but this creates much more pressure and ample snaring.-- Ikimono <font color ="Teal">I know Paragons. Shut up and listen [[Image:Paragon-icon-small.png]] 19:50, 31 December 2008 (EST)

A WHOLE MONK
guys i accidentally a whole monk with this build

is this bad?66.66.95.26 17:03, 5 January 2009 (EST)
 * did it itch?-- reason ' . ' decrystallized   I frenzy-healsig.  22:12, 5 January 2009 (EST)
 * How do you accidentally a whole monk with this build? Also, I want to ask, why is a broom? And is english?<font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Pika <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">Fan  22:17, 5 January 2009 (EST)

Who didn't see that coming
58 damage and 4 seconds cripple @ 13 CS. <font color="Blue">Frosty <font color="Blue"> po!  19:38, 8 January 2009 (EST)


 * its still fun d shotting it though <font color=#669900>ƃuoן sı [[Image:Escape.jpg|19px]] <font color=#996 600>ʇɐɔƃuoן 21:23, 8 January 2009 (EST)

Lol it's actually buffed. Palm strike is now below spirit bond, and the cripple nerf doesn't hurt at all. —ǘŋ Ɛxɩsƫ  07:09, 11 January 2009 (EST)

this needs a "smiter's boon like" nerf! Illoyon 18:30, 10 January 2009 (EST)


 * QQ moar -- -Ch ao  s-  [[Image:TheDentist.jpg|19px]] 08:41, 11 January 2009 (EST)

15^50 recomended?
maybe off topic but idk where else to discuss it. why is 15^50 (15% damage when above 50% health) the meta on daggers? firstly the 15% extra damage adds like 1 more damage to your daggers, secondly its conditional my sin is usually low health making this absolutely poop. the damage mods according to this site only affect weapon damage, not skills. assassins do pretty much all of their damage through skills not base damage, therefor the +5 energy mod is THE definitive way to go for inscription. this is probably why you see so many noobs complaining about energy when you post a build, with radient insignias and that inscription my sin as 40 energy and so I can spam skills like crazy with zealous weaps. the only time I could justify 15^50 is on high crit builds likes A/D crit scythe who rely on crit hits to do damage because only in a crit does 15% do tird all. this is why all the green daggers are effectively useless (save nihils), a-net are noob sins like the rest of you. sorry for the rant, interested in why anyone disagrees!
 * It adds atleast 2 damage on each hit in fact, maybe 4 or even more if you crit (I never play sin, quite unsure of daggers real damage), it's no meta, it's the best thing to use. Count how fast it adds up if you hit a guy 10 times, and see how little health a character has. -- -Ch ao  s-  [[Image:TheDentist.jpg|19px]] 04:49, 25 January 2009 (EST)

15^50 is meta for weapons. period.-- Ikimono <font color ="Teal">Needs more Paragon 06:18, 25 January 2009 (EST)

bad replies. nobody argues why and I provide great arguements why not especially for daggers. I tested a little with daggers but hard to notice any difference as hit randomly high or low, but its not more than 1 more damage.Banok 17:09, 26 January 2009 (EST)

people run 15^50 b/c an extra 5 max energy is pointless when sins have infinite energy from crit strikes--<font color=#C68E17>Golden <font color=#C68E17>Star 17:11, 26 January 2009 (EST)
 * ^-- Ikimono <font color ="Teal">Needs more Paragon [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png]] 08:59, 9 February 2009 (EST)
 * I run it while pvping. I use +5 in Pve cause I'm bad. <font color="blue" face="courier new">Biggles <font color="darkblue" face="courier new">Strongfist ™  10:23, 9 February 2009 (EST)
 * Cause you can't switch to bleeding/crippling/dw daggers halfway through the spike--Relyk 11:00, 9 February 2009 (EST)

Spiking in a Mob
Not sure if it's worth mentioning on the main article, but when you can't get a target away from its allies, you can use the chain without HotO, using both falling strikes in a row. This is, at the very least, helpful for capping certain shrines in AB. Lazuli 14:01, 15 February 2009 (EST)
 * That's what the original build was. See the whole huge debate + discussion above.-- Ikimono <font color ="Teal">Needs more Paragon [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png|24px]] 14:06, 15 February 2009 (EST)

flail
well no room for flail anymore seeming as its been updated, now it will only last 1 second im gonna go ahead and remove it
 * and back to flurry we go.-- Ikimono <font color ="Teal">Needs more Paragon [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png|24px]] 07:45, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Sig of Malice in variants? 4 conditions can provide some mass condition removal if u get condition stacked.<font face="Lucida Handwriting" color="red">Flesh Atrophy 01:18, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Reduce spiking power, fit it where.-- Ikimono "a rabid grizzly bear" [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png|24px]] 01:34, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * /spellsouteverything. variants; do u bring res sig to AB or CM? hope not <font face="Lucida Handwriting" color="red">Flesh Atrophy 02:58, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * u bring dash--Relyk 06:10, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

nerfed
increased recharge <font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  02:07, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * work still -- <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Frosty  <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Mc Admin  02:20, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yep, the shorter chain variant is much more affected than the long one. --Longasc 20:37, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Tried playing for two rounds straight couldn't even get trampling ox in, wtb IMS or shadowstep this is already outdated imo--99.8.36.207 16:58, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This is pretty bad in ra now, unless you're facing even worse players Moomoopumpkinpai 02:29, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * which u will be--Relyk 03:43, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * This needs a votewipe [[Image:Muffin.jpg|19px]]<font color="Brown">P WNAGEMUFFIN   <font color="Green">crabs  14:58, September 1, 2009 (UTC)

This build wipes its but with a dildo
 * lol grammar.-- Ikimono "Mutton Chop Man" [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png|24px]] 03:21, September 28, 2009 (UTC)

Q-step
What does "Q-step" mean? No definition found anywhere.--War_Pig5 06:39, November 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * It means to quarter-step and do in doing so, it only gives your target an 1/4 second standing time. You just take a step (click near your character with your mouse) after Falling Lotus. [[Image:Zyke-Sig.png]] 06:57, November 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually it is giving your target less then 1/4 standing time, such that no spell can be cast. Press your cancel action (esc by default), and then youll have to know the timing for when to KD again. Q-stepping is simply the variant of stepping in the direction opposite to that which you want them to kite (or they are kiting) so when they run you auto-crit. Gringo 07:35, November 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * He moar proer. Listen to him. [[Image:Zyke-Sig.png]] 07:44, November 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * so bad zyke-- Relyk  talk  05:23, January 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Seeing how this is an assassin build,which means crits don't really matter, wouldn't you qstep in the direction they are kiteing to bodyblock them?;/ Brandnew 09:23, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

RA tag
Why isn't there one? lol 70.30.25.245 17:26, January 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Blind and blocking are both currently so popular in RA, that using this in RA has slipped out of favor. People who are currently still using it are commonly people who get blinded, blocked, KD'd, and killed quickly. <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">17:31, 22 January 2010
 * It's actually more to do with the fact you can't get a res in the bar without losing IMS, and no IMS = suq melee. --<font color="Black">Frosty  [[Image:Frostcharge.jpg|19px]] 17:37, January 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * No! I'm right! Or maybe you're right.... <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">17:39, 22 January 2010
 * if kj were right, all melee builds other than whirling axe or other unblockables would be removed from ra catergory.[[image:Unreal_sig_1.png‎ ]][[Image:Cute mc puppies.jpg|19px]] 18:42, May 30, 2010 (UTC)

[build prof=A/W name="Flailing Palm Strike" dag=12+1+1 cri=12+1][Palm Strike][Trampling Ox][Falling Lotus Strike][Falling Spider][Twisting Fangs][Flurry][Dash][Resurrection Signet][/build] For RA, it works real well actually. &#8212; Forget   21:52, May 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * imo. or flurry over dash. Gringo 23:13, May 30, 2010 (UTC)

This is what you are looking for, go unarchive --<font color="Black">Frosty  23:23, May 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * I couldn't agree with KJ more about his blind/block statement. My experiences have been just that as a meleer. Assassin's Remedy is always a staple on my assassin, and I many times take M.Touch over bulls for my warrior, and just use coward for kd abuse instead. --BlazingBurdy 00:06, May 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * M touch over bull's? &#8212; Forget  Bible.gif 02:25, May 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * YOU DID NOT JUST SAY YOU DROPPED BULLS. --Brandnew 07:51, May 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't worry guys, he dropped Bulls cause he was using Coward. Acceptable circumstance. --<font color="Black">Frosty  [[Image:Frostcharge.jpg|19px]] 08:55, May 31, 2010 (UTC)

Equipment template
Ive just added equpmnet template but 1 mistake. I have no zaleous mod for spear ;/ But i hope it will help because easier is add 1 mod than all ;) If someone will be able to change, do it please!

Archive?
since this build got voted down under the 3.75 minimum standard i believe its either time to trash this or archive it. Dacookiemaster 21:55, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
 * 3 votes-- Relyk 01:53, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Archive
As above this needs archiving. Never sees play and unless there is a massive update, never will. Rawr 12:41, 31 October 2011 (UTC)