PvXwiki talk:Financing/Archive

General
This site wasn't the greatest thing that happened to GW anyway. (Hint: SoJ assacasters). Railin 20:24, 11 November 2007 (CET)

This is a rough situation. Many of the users I assume would be teens and college students, of who are not known for their financial stability. Sites that generate as much traffic as I assume this site does end up costing a lot in the long run. One person cannot do it alone. Ideally, a small group of close-knit people really would be the best bet, as several hands make for lighter costs. I am sure Guild Wiki was dealing with this before the site was sold to Wikia. I don't forsee any other options other than the ones given here, but with the amount of debt already accumulated, I cannot see advertising being any sort of solution for the near future. Someone would have to step up with some cash. - Lord Xivor 20:27, 11 November 2007 (CET)

I'm bringgin coversations down below up here (so were not getting off topic there). i think that while going back to GW wiki would be an option i don't think it would be ideal, what with all the fus about the move to wikia and everything, if ou were going to move you could perhaps see if the official wiki wanted to join? (just a thought), but i think that should be Plan B. Otherwise i think donations and advertising mainly, we could have a look around for sutiable adds, and when we find some we could all click like mad for a bit =P, that would cover any new expenses, and then we use donations to cover the current debt. thoughts? PheNaxKian (T /c) 20:46, 11 November 2007 (CET)

I say we need to run thousands of bots and then we sell the money we get on Ebay or something or real money. Then, we can get a lot money for this site. Linkin Park 20:47, 11 November 2007 (CET)
 * No. that's against T&C of GW. PheNaxKian (T /c)[[Image:Tag_thumb.jpg|19px]] 20:48, 11 November 2007 (CET)

Mix of all of them?
I think that really we need to be a realistic all have there downfalls, advertising needs maintenance, donations aren't reliable and we don't like the idea of too many people controlling PvX wiki or at least not any "outside" help. So i suggest perhaps a merge of all 3. We would use donations as and when they come in (and ONLY when needed-we wouldn't accept any if we were in the black (we have money) that way we avoid any future problems that may arise). We would then have a couple of Adds (probably just 2 little ones 3 max) out of the way slightly, but still somewhere were people will see and click (we could probably talk to say the official wiki or GWG(guild wars guru) and see if either would like adverts on our site (this would mean we don't get any of the annoying adds we don't want to get involved in (gold type things)). Finally we would say GC split site ownership with someone else (i'd say just 1 other, but 2 others would be viable, however i think anymore than that is a bit iffy), they would of course be people who wanted to have such a position, be willing to cough up some money every so often, and they would have to be from the community who help out around here (pref ably having been here a while so we don't just get someone who just joined swooping in and making a load of unwanted changes), having joint ownership would mean that costs wouldn't be as heavy on GC with having costs split between him and the other owner(s). Summery (sort of): Thoughts? PheNaxKian (T /c) 21:12, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * Donations to cover any debt-nothing else. (A list of amount who and when will be kept).
 * Adds to help reduce monthly costs-While it may not being in a large amount of money it will at least lighten the costs each month (6 months year or whenever bills need paying). They will be legitimate-so no gold ads, or anything that goes against T&C of GW.
 * Shared Ownership. GC (if he still wishes to stay around with RL going on) shall share ownership with some people so that there are 2 or 3 owners of the wiki (no more than 3 owners total), so that the costs are spread evenly. The additional owners should be from the Wiki how have contributed actively and positively for a while. Control would be equal-in disputes we would have a community vote on whatever the issue is.
 * With my PayPal account closed donations are on hold. Ads needs management and will be bound to one single individual as they are bounded to Credit card, bank account and so on – I can’t share that information. As this site is not owned by organization but by an individual all papers, hosting, ads contracts will be in my name and I can’t share my financial information with anyone, I hope you can understand that. gcardinal 21:28, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * I understand about donations being on hold for the time being, but in bit when your up and running again perhaps. As for ads i understand managment is needed, so like i say perhaps just one or two little ones somewhere. The ads would be tied to you, however while we wouldn't give anyone else your details, they would pay into your pay pal account (again when that's sorted out), and that would be the other "owners" of the site. I'm not entirly sure about the whole how ads work type thing, but if you went away couldn't Hippo or perhaps the other "owners" sort it out if something went wrong (like i say i'm not sure how they work)- or on the other hand you could try and find someone who wants adverts putting up, but perhaps making a contract with them, whereby they agree to only have ads that you agree to (so you would say no gold ads or something), and if say they broke that some sort of fine? PheNaxKian (T /c)[[Image:Tag_thumb.jpg|19px]] 21:41, 12 November 2007 (CET)

Donations
I'd like for the site to stay open, though I'm not too active anymore... I think donation is the way to go. Or maybe revert back to GW Wiki for builds if GCard isn't wanting to run it anymore. I think there needs to be some consideration of, before PvX was started, GW Wiki was going to come up with a new vetting system. Again, I am entirely empathetic to GCards situation. Ni 20:21, 11 November 2007 (CET)
 * Reverting back to GuildWiki will be to transfer site to Wikia. Its an option. gcardinal 20:41, 11 November 2007 (CET)

I believe that donations along with advertising will allow for the long-term fiscal health of this site. One problem with the donation system as currently set up is that the donate option is available only on the left-hand navigational bar. This kind of understated location fails to promote the importance of money in the maintenance of the site. I would suggest creating a larger icon for the main page, to be displayed up near the top of the page. If you could have a real time counter of how much is needed to reach a target goal (say, for last quarter 2007, first quarter 2008, etc.), you might find that this would allow people to see their donations count in a very visceral way.

I would also be proactive in letting the major Guild Wars community sites know that PvXwiki needs donations in order to stay afloat. My own experience is that players do use the site regularly. In fact, my guild, while it has strong PvE roots, is in the process of becoming more active in PvP. Our players do come to PvXwiki to get ideas. PvXwiki needs to tap into the community awareness of the site. If, out of the thousands of people who visit the site, a couple of hundred cough up $20 US (the price of pizza delivery), the site will be financially much more healthy. I would even encourage PvXwiki to have a subscriber option through PayPal, so that users could choose to give on a monthly, quarterly, or annual basis.

A more robust donation base would not exclude the use of ads, but it might provide a means to be pickier about what kinds of ads (and how many) are displayed. Ceolstan 18:03, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * In recent news PayPal closed my account so donations are put on hold for now. it illustrates how bad the idea of donations is. We need 1000$ to cover up the negative balance and at least 2000$ for 1 year hosting. Total we need at least 3000$ to ensure stable future for this website, for at least a year to come. The thing with donations you can't plan it. Advertising needs constant look after and is bounded to one single individual. gcardinal 20:34, 12 November 2007 (CET)

Advertising
I personally think advertising sounds as the best alternative. Finding a new owner seems rather tricky and I don't think donations from the community will be very common. Advertising seems as the most logical alternative. †Godliest† -- My Sandbox  19:58, 11 November 2007 (CET)

Advertising really does seem like the only option here, but with such a debt I dont think we can really afford to be picky about our ads like guildwiki is. are gold selling ads really a big deal?--Coloneh 20:23, 11 November 2007 (CET)

Advertising HAS to be done. It ain't nice, no-one likes it, but in order to keep the site up, with as little expense, advertising is the way to go. To re-coup losses, and set-up for future, the advertising may have to be harsh at first, but could probably calm down in time. HOWEVER, it seems like you may not want to run the site anymore (i.e. non activity as stated, new GF) and if this is the case, then say so. No-one expects anyone to stay with a site they don;t want to, or dont have the time for. Kylegarra 20:37, 11 November 2007 (CET)


 * (EC)/agree. I don't think we'll be able to do it on donations alone, and as for a new owner i'm not entirely sure about such a thing...and besides aren't we covered by the same license as Guildwiki-wouldn't we have this whole issue of selling (I understand the situations not the same but isn't the general idea? (i'm not implying your doing it for money but wouldn't you actually get money out of it (even if it's just to cover what you've put into it))) i think adverts are the best way to go, we could just have 2 on each page, 1 under the tool box and one at the bottom of the page, that way there out of the way.... PheNaxKian (T /c)[[Image:Tag_thumb.jpg|19px]] 20:27, 11 November 2007 (CET)
 * Advertisements would be a long-term solution, but there is a short-term solution that needs to be dealt with as well, and that is the $1k debt already accumulated, of which ads will not touch. As well, I don't know how many people out there are Firefox users, but the majority of people I know around me here use Firefox with the AdBlock Plus extension, including me.  With the ever-growing popularity of Firefox and this extension, I wonder if advertising is even worth it these days. - Lord Xivor 20:31, 11 November 2007 (CET)
 * Well we could put up adverts to cover up any new costs then take donations untill the 1K has been payed off? as for this thing about firefox-i'm not overly sure how adverts would pay (i gather something to do with number of clicks or something)but wouldn't them jsut being there generate money-even if the majority can't see them-couldn't we charge for space on the pages or something? e.eg under the toolbox on the main page would cost say $100 a mounth or something and say $60 on sub pages (obviusly charge diffrent for the more viewed). PheNaxKian (T /c)[[Image:Tag_thumb.jpg|19px]] 20:35, 11 November 2007 (CET)
 * Well, you actually don't get paid by people to advertise for them. Basically, the site owner would register for an advertising service and place their code in the advertisement slot in the website.  Then, that code will generate the advertisements, pulling the banners or whatever off the advertiser's server, usually a different ad every page load.  The profit comes by click-throughs however, meaning that no income is generated unless the ads are clicked on.  Even then, it is mere pennies per click, so it would take tons to generate a decent profit, suitable to support the hosting costs. - Lord Xivor 20:38, 11 November 2007 (CET)
 * Advertising companies pay for CLICKS. Not for place or view's. The only ad's that pays for impressions are casino/dating/gold and so on. I do know how advertising works - please read advertising section in my post. Keep discussion solution related please. gcardinal 20:40, 11 November 2007 (CET)
 * Would you get money from people simply clicking or do people need to sign up for the stuff in the ads. Linkin Park 20:53, 11 November 2007 (CET)
 * I vote for ads. --[[Image:MangleD_sig.jpg|19px]]mangleD (T/C ) 21:07, 11 November 2007 (CET)
 * I don't have the statistics of this site however it seems it have a lot of dayly users. Maybe have a try with some google adds (or others). I see a nice place under the toolbox wich will not decrease visuals. ;-) --[[Image:Assassin's Promise.jpg|20px]]<font color="#A08 ">Ttibot  (Talk) 21:25, 11 November 2007 (CET)

gwg has gold-selling ads and isn't complete shit, but that won't improve your site. close shop imo

I have no problem with gold ads. GW has proven they care about the game's economy before so they wouldn't destabilize it, and anyone who wants to buy gold can just Google it and find what they're looking for anyway. --71.229.204.25 00:04, 12 November 2007 (CET)

If they pay for clicks, couldn't we all just click on it for a while and rake in some cash?--<font color="darkorange" face="arial bold">Victory <font color="Brown" face="arial bold">is <font color="black" face="arial bold">yours 00:19, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * Sshhhhhh. If they hear you, they'll take away their ads. >.> --71.229.204.25 00:34, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * Also, they register your IP, so multiple clicks from the same one = ads revoked. --71.229.204.25 00:34, 12 November 2007 (CET)

I believe I suggested this before finances ever became a problem. GCardinal, have you followed up on this, gotten any estimates on how much revenue could be gained by banner/sidebar ads? GWiki could steadily turn a profit with those simple sidebar ads from Google; is our site traffic sufficient to do the same? If you want to keep the estimates confidential (permanently, or until they are solidified, or w/e), you can e-mail my MSN with the quotes and estimates. - <font face="dauphin" color="maroon">Krowman    07:41, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * I have spend a lot of time doing research on this subject. And in order to have Good game related ad's I need hand pick around 10-20 of them. Need a script that will rotate them and then need to follow up on each. And if I go away for any reason or dont have time to check ad's it will stop or turn into gold ad's. I am looking for solution where I am not personly responsible for month to month bill payment as I am today. If I go on buisness trip now and away for like 3-4 weeks - they will close the site couse no one will pay the bill. gcardinal 08:34, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * Delegate it to Ben, Hhhippo and myself. Would the ad revenue be sufficient to pay the bills? - [[Image:Kowal.jpg|15px]] <font face="dauphin" color="maroon">Krowman   09:35, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * Hhhippo and I don't have time for this. In order to work with ad's you need access to paypal accont (contected to my VISA), access to the server to add/remove ad's to the site and so on. As you understand I can't trust with this to evryone. gcardinal 09:43, 12 November 2007 (CET)

For the site as a whole, ads looks like our best bet. -- Armond Warblade 09:57, 12 November 2007 (CET)

Yes. — <font color="Black">Tycn (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 10:06, 12 November 2007 (CET)

Advertising isnt the end of the world come on guys, it will get some of the money needed, or a fair bit, I say thats the best option.
 * Nobody's disagreeing with you. --71.229.204.25 10:36, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * We don't need a temporary solution now. As you can see site runs just fine and both me and Hhhippo work hard on the server side to make sure it stays this way. This isnt crysis that needs a instant solution - we are talking about long term problem with financing of the Pvxwiki. Getting some 300-400$ now wont do any good if after 2-3 month we will have same situation again. I need a rock solid solution that will last for at least two years. gcardinal 11:09, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * So if its per click lets all get click bots :p Himynameisbobbyjoe 22:56, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * It wouldn't work-if you read above a couple of posts, they register your IP so you can't do that. <font color="Purple">PheNaxKian (<font color="Red">T /c)[[Image:Tag_thumb.jpg|19px]] 22:57, 12 November 2007 (CET)

Advertising Bars
I personally wouldnt mind a banner and the top/bottom and maybe somthing under the left bar. Im sure Iwth all the traffic PvX could get significant cash for the advertisments. Himynameisbobbyjoe 14:04, 12 November 2007 (CET)


 * /agree --Peter 17:20, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * As it says in my post and many places in this discussion - Ad's is not something you just add and leave without attention. Please read my other comments on this subject. gcardinal 17:24, 12 November 2007 (CET)

New owner
Looks pretty utiopic. Any new owner will take a site if it does not create revenues. For example wikia (which is a non profit organisation and I like anyway) will ad advertising on the site to pay it servers. However have a look at guildwiki. Advertising is "too much" on that site so I prefer we add advertising by ourselves. --<font color="#A08 ">Ttibot (Talk) 21:22, 11 November 2007 (CET)
 * At least they are stable, secure and don't have gold ad's. And if we going to run ad's we will need at least double of the amount you see on guildwiki in order to cover all up. gcardinal 22:54, 11 November 2007 (CET)
 * Well, we should seriously study amount of publicity needed to cover costs. On GuildWiki there is much publicity because Wikia want to earn money from this site to cover other costs (all wikia user's projects wich use many ressources and are generally little active). However a new owner is not that bad imo (since he places his advertising on "ergonomic" places. I mean not on edit zone like on GuildWiki =/ ) --[[Image:Assassin's Promise.jpg|20px]]<font color="#A08 ">Ttibot (Talk) 23:05, 11 November 2007 (CET)
 * Just move to Wikia, that seems the best idea. Tons of active wikis are there, (not the wikia produced wikis mind you, the wikia owned ones.) like the WoWiki, the Halo wiki, heck even a huge Star Wars wiki. GuildWiki hasn't really changed from the move, and many of the others havent either. I don't have the money to donate. Wikia ftw, or at least a good new owner. ADDED: Maybe some advertisements would be a good idea, as long as they aren't bots or gold selling, they can be tolerated. -- Alreajk 04:48, 12 November 2007 (CET)

Highly unlikely, especially with GCardinal's opposition to Gravewit selling out GWiki. - <font face="dauphin" color="maroon">Krowman    07:25, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * At this moment I do support transfer to the Wikia. The mess with GuildWiki, but that wasnt Wikia mistake as I was thinking to start with. It ended up very well and they run nice and clean now - and I like that. And for that matter I don't see any other options at the momment. gcardinal 08:30, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * Transfer to Wikia seems to me to probably be the best solution. --<font color="Black">Edru viransu //<font color="Red">QQ about me /sysop 20:18, 12 November 2007 (CET)

Usefullness
When i am Playing GW and i see people in AC ask about something or a build for a certain area, the first answer is generally, check the wiki. The truth is people have become dependent on the Wiki, and as always the Wiki is dependent on the people. What i think we should do, is yes the donations, yes the ads, but only temporaily. Maybe a cheaper domain, maybe we can go to the official GWW? Shutting down the site is very very bad for the GW community imo. Thats' my two cents.Riff 00:05, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * In all seriousness, fuck the official wiki. Selling to Wikia is more tolerable. --71.229.204.25 00:07, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * I don't think the official wiki will accept anyway. ^-^ Remember, they did not even want to have a build section. "Only guides." --[[Image:Assassin's Promise.jpg|20px]]<font color="#A08 ">Ttibot (Talk) 00:46, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * Official wiki is not an option. They run under GPL, will never install my extensions and so on. Its just to crazy idea. gcardinal 08:31, 12 November 2007 (CET)

Wikia
Maybe ask now wikia if they are willing to take the wiki and under wich conditions. So that this can be discussed more seriously. I think being hosted by wikia make no difference for users. They are serious (many european GW Wikis are hoster here and they have the largest database for WoW for example). I agree that it will be safer for evryone. --<font color="#A08 ">Ttibot (Talk) 23:03, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * No. Lord Belar 23:04, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * /agree. I think people would prefer the official wiki to take over rather than Wikia (i could be wrong but i think that's the general opinion) <font color="Purple">PheNaxKian (<font color="Red">T /c)[[Image:Tag_thumb.jpg|19px]] 23:05, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * Official wiki both will not and cannot(due to licensing) take over PvX. --<font color="Black">Edru viransu //<font color="Red">QQ about me /sysop 23:13, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * GuildWiki is in CC too and there is no problem. Please don't focus on GuildWiki sold. People felt frustrated it was sold because only one person earned money from a community site, wich is a non sense and quite a scam. Ok. But remember that wikia is a non profit organisation founded buy WikiMedia (Wikipedia, Wikimedia-Commons, wikiunivesty...) members. They are not bad guies... The goal of wikia is to encourage free content, not to make profit. So don't listen to your angryness but watch it by the right side. ;-) --[[Image:Assassin's Promise.jpg|20px]]<font color="#A08 ">Ttibot (Talk) 01:51, 13 November 2007 (CET)
 * Wikia is definitely a for-profit corporation, which is where the controversy stemmed from. Just to clear up the misconception.  Merengue 02:06, 13 November 2007 (CET)
 * And that is not a problem in the slightest, to eliminate the possibility of having to explain basic economics to anyone. --71.229.204.25 02:11, 13 November 2007 (CET)
 * Yes, my bad. I should have checked before speaking. The wikipedia page explain that "key players at Wikia simultaneously serve the [Wikimedia] Foundation" but it is a private organisation founded by Jimmy Wales who had founded wikipedia too with Larry Sanger. Lol, I think it is correct now.--[[Image:Assassin's Promise.jpg|20px]]<font color="#A08 ">Ttibot (Talk) 02:33, 13 November 2007 (CET)
 * There was a lot of controversy over the GuildWiki move, but I think at this point most people can see it wasn't so bad. I think this wiki could move to Wikia as well and there wouldn't be the same level of controversy, plus hosting by a company that hosts lots of wikis (and thus has lots of experience with it, has its servers tuned for it, is prepared for a lot of traffic, etc) is a good idea.  --68.187.144.197 05:49, 13 November 2007 (CET)
 * Talks with Wikia has started. Read main page. 193.215.6.253 08:58, 13 November 2007 (CET)

Asking for help.
Is it me or has no one thought to ask The Offical GWW to make a build section for players? I don't want to seem rude, but it just occured to me.DSL 00:16, 12 November 2007 (CET)

i thought Wiki was a free domain and wouldnt need to pay for hostingMajikmajikmajik 00:17, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * Lol, wiki isn't a domaine. It is only a name meaning we are using a community software. Anything is free in this holy economic world. ^-^. About official wiki : see a few lines up. They already vetted against build section.--[[Image:Assassin's Promise.jpg|20px]]<font color="#A08 ">Ttibot (Talk) 00:43, 12 November 2007 (CET)

I never post on wikis (as you can see, I have no account), but have you considered getting a new host? Domain registration and space (even for this magnitude) can be cheap if you look in the right place. Try 1&1.com, they're pretty good. --71.205.20.231 02:55, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * 1&1 has a terrible track record for customer service. --71.229.204.25 02:58, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * Well, you have to consider this: if something is not financially feasable as it stands and you're trying to keep similar functionality, customer service is not going to be the biggest of concerns. Just keeping yourself (or the site in this case) is the only concern. Really, as long as this website remains stable with a 95% uptime, I'll take it. —ǥrɩɳsɧ  ƿoɲ  13:09, 12 November 2007 (CET)

If we go to GWW, me and a lot more of the community will probably quit. — Skakid9090 02:56, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * And I also believe GWW has rejected having builds in its wikispace. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]] Ressmonkey   (talk)  03:10, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * Yeah, they went for guilds instead. Dumb. Lord Belar 03:37, 12 November 2007 (CET)

aruba.it ~50€/year --Jim Eno 04:38, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * This is not a subject for this discussion. We need a long term solution, we are just fine now. We have around 450000 hits a day and we need at least 2 dedicated servers to run this site, not some shared hosting. gcardinal 08:28, 12 November 2007 (CET)

Does this site have good ties with ArenaNet? That is to say, ArenaNet officially hosts a forum already. If you can convince ArenaNet to officially support this site, they'll pay all the money month to month. Why would ArenaNet want to officially support this site? It's advertising for their game. It keeps players interested in playing (as well as showing builds which require skills in campaigns they may not have, therefore encouraging them to buy them). Though, I should add that trying to have them support this site and a heavy debt is not a very attractive offer. I'd simply let them pay month to month and keep the advertising revenue they get from it. If not, the alternative is that arguably a huge hunk of the fan base who stay on for the builds and the skill caps might move on to their competitors for lack of build ideas within a matter of a few years. My condolences for your situation, Gcardinal. I sincerely hope things work out in the end. Eyekwah 09:39, 12 November 2007 (CET)

I don't think Anet would lighten up the situation. This is not advertising; potential players are not going to visit a builds website. People are quitting the game not because they don't have access to good builds, but because of various other reasons. I believe that barring some lucky donations or someone willing to take on the site, we'll have to resort to ads. I wouldn't mind getting the occasional gold ad, if it means a stable site. — <font color="Black">Tycn (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 09:56, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * Any talks with ArenaNet is not an option. If we will move - it will be Wikia. Not to ArenaNet. It just far to imposible. You just dont see the complexity of this site. 193.215.6.253 10:38, 12 November 2007 (CET)

Is Tanaric still willing to help?
I know he's quite busy with his new job, but way back when PvX was founded, he had expressed interest in hosting a builds section. If we can get Gcardinal and Hhhippo server access and Cory hosts it, we could continue on like nothing changed. We'll have to ask him if he's still interested (and if his schedule permits). - Auron 12:50, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * As I stated in my post transfer to a single person is not an option. As you can see site runs just fine and we are not in any crysis. We need a long term solution. Please read the post and discussion before posting. gcardinal 14:03, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * To me, this looks like it would be a long term solution. At the very least, I think it would be worth asking his opinion and perhaps advice. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 19:37, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * And how exactly it will solve the problem? As you can see me and Hhhippo host this site just fine. Any trasnfer to any private single individual is not a subject for discussion. It is not what I am looking for. gcardinal 20:30, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * Because Cory (Tanaric) would assume the burden of hosting, which is the problem you're trying to correct. - [[Image:Kowal.jpg|15px]] <font face="dauphin" color="maroon">Krowman   21:15, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * It is not a burden. PvXwiki can't survive for long if it will stay bounded to one single individual. If anything happens or that person goes away or will have financial problems or what ever site will be closed down pretty fast. It is not a SECURE LONG TERM solution I am looking for. Please see the big picture here. gcardinal 21:19, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * "We are looking for LONG TERM solution." "It is not a SECURE LONG TERM solution I am looking for." What the hell are you talking about? - [[Image:Kowal.jpg|15px]] <font face="dauphin" color="maroon">Krowman   22:43, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * I think it's how it's worded, i think he means it's not the safe long term solution he's looking for, not that he's not looking for a safe long term solution.....I think... <font color="Purple">PheNaxKian (<font color="Red">T /c)[[Image:Tag_thumb.jpg|19px]] 22:48, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * He wants a solution that can be assured of lasting for several years without worry over whether any one person might decide at any time to stop hosting. Lord Belar 22:50, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * I know originally the idea was to get just Taranic to cover costs while GC and Hippo carry on as normal, but why not see if he wants a partnership with GC instead-that way GC's happy about it not being a signal owner? (I'm assuming GC still wants to host and all that....) <font color="Purple">PheNaxKian (<font color="Red">T /c)[[Image:Tag_thumb.jpg|19px]] 22:55, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * This discussion is not about who hosts what. Its about long term planning of how this site will function in the years to come. We are not in any urgent need of hosting from Tenaric or any other private person. gcardinal 23:01, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * Why not go into partnership though? you may not need help hosting but you need help covering some of the costs (hence the discussions going on here), it just makes sense to me if the person you're going to ask for a partnership (in a sense) does a bit of work. While that sounds odd i wouldn't like someone to be covering the costs that isn't overly interested in the going ons around here. <font color="Purple">PheNaxKian (<font color="Red">T /c)[[Image:Tag_thumb.jpg|19px]] 23:10, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * At the momment we dont have such a person so discussion on what we will do if there is no such person is pointless. Going around and begging for some donations is not a way to a long term solution. gcardinal 23:21, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * I don't mean to sound rude or offend when i say this but-why suggest such on option knowingly, when your aware of peoples lack of "interest" to assist with the problem. Like i say i don't mean to offend but it seems you dislike the idea of going into a partnership with anyone (which would suggest you don't wish to continue being the "man in charge" so to speak-which is perfectly fine if so). You also seem to dislike the idea of Adds (which again is ok i understand your reasoning behind), my problem is that instead of trying to find problems round issues, you simply state that you can't do whatever for whatever reason it may be. I will say again that i don't mean to offend you and my apologies if i have done so, but that is how i see things. <font color="Purple">PheNaxKian (<font color="Red">T /c)[[Image:Tag_thumb.jpg|19px]] 23:31, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * We need to find a group of people or a company to host this, no single person can do it(tsuper i'm to lazy to log in)
 * Yes, one single person can. It's been done before on other websites, and it's been done by GCardinal up to this point. It is not impossible. - [[Image:Kowal.jpg|15px]] <font face="dauphin" color="maroon">Krowman   02:25, 13 November 2007 (CET)

As much as I hate to bring it up.. Elite Status?
I know sites such as Gunzfactor.com have solved these sorts of problems by bringing in Elite Status type things that users can by. I know it sounds lame, but it's basically a donation with a benefit that should cost little to nothing on behalf of the host. I'm not sure how this could work, but it's a thought. Also, a "Please Click Me" link on the Main Page wouldn't hurt. Kinda like the thing they did for breast cancer on a couple sites. Click the link and advertisers pay as they'd pay for anything, except this would be more appealing than average links because, imho, it would tell site users "This is what keeps this site going. Click this button at least once every day to show how much you love it here." On the same note, Firefox users would probably have to modify their Adblock settings to make PvX an exception. <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2">cedave <small color="#AA226D">(contributions_buildpage)  02:38, 13 November 2007 (CET)
 * Asking users to click the ads is usually a good way to get them yanked. --71.229.204.25 02:40, 13 November 2007 (CET)
 * Elite status doesn't work on wikis. At all. —ǥrɩɳsɧ  ƿoɲ  03:08, 13 November 2007 (CET)
 * Do wikipedia-style fundrasing drives with the annoying little banners at the top of the page. Lord Belar 03:31, 13 November 2007 (CET)


 * We could just make it an understanding among users. That kinda thing is harder to observe for ad companies. Also, I'm talking like maybe full user page customization. Basically let 'em turn their page into a MySpace or whatever they'd like. Just an idea. [[Image:Cedave_bad.png|16px]] <font color="#AA226D" face="times new roman" size="2">cedave <small color="#AA226D">(contributions_buildpage)  03:33, 13 November 2007 (CET)
 * Start dealing drugs. I hear there's a lot of money in that. :P Lord Belar 03:38, 13 November 2007 (CET)
 * I cry for the wasted bandwidth. --71.229.204.25 04:18, 13 November 2007 (CET)

So basically
We're going to join wikia? After that huge "change pvxcode to the official wiki because of the wikia move"? I notice that there was essentially no discussion in either. -- Armond Warblade 09:58, 13 November 2007 (CET)
 * I have only started talks with Wikia to ensure that they are interested. At the momment it is the only organization that can provide the security and the stalbe long term hosting garantee that I am looking for. gcardinal 10:06, 13 November 2007 (CET)
 * Which means that the other two options you mentioned are not? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 10:11, 13 November 2007 (CET)
 * PayPal closed my account so its a bit dead end atm, all the advertising suggestions will result in more banners then Wikia with constant need of menegment. I just don't see how twice the amount of banners and constant begging for donations will be a better solution. However nothing is decided yeat, so if anyone have contructive suggestions not based on "lets add som ads it will do the trick". Real suggestion based on real numbers. Anything that will match Wikia. At the momment I don't see anything bad with transfer to Wikia, it is more of less natural as I see it. gcardinal 10:30, 13 November 2007 (CET)
 * And we can't get Cory to host it? He was going to create the site before you did. He'd be willing to host it long-term, I'd bet. At the very least, it's worth asking before we end up with wikia and lose a bunch of face. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 10:33, 13 November 2007 (CET)
 * Transfer to Cory, You, Peter Pan or anyone else is not an option. If hosting by single private individual will be the only option availabel I will continue hosting as I did for the last 6 month. gcardinal 11:01, 13 November 2007 (CET)
 * Aren't you a private individual? Last I checked you weren't a company. And we've done just fine with you being our private individual. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 11:13, 13 November 2007 (CET)
 * Yes and if hosting by a private individual is the only option I will do it my self. However at the moment we do have other alternatives. gcardinal 11:54, 13 November 2007 (CET)


 * The old phrase goes something like this: "If you want something done, do it yourself." Gcard would probably rather absorb the costs for a while more than give it to someone he doesn't know. —ǥrɩɳsɧ  ƿoɲ  13:20, 13 November 2007 (CET)
 * Can i just ask-why Transfer, why not share hosting (obviously it wouldn't solve the curent debt but it would certainly make things easier for new bills having it split between two people...) Can i also ask if you checked to see if the official wiki was interested while moving to wikia wouldn't bother me that much i would prefer to go to the official wiki? <font color="Purple">PheNaxKian (<font color="Red">T /c)[[Image:Tag_thumb.jpg|19px]] 16:02, 13 November 2007 (CET)

The Only Solution
That is long term is joining wikia. All the others are quick fixes that will eventually lead to the demise of this site in one way or another. I vote for wikia. Also I would like to thank Gcardinal for keeping this site up for so long by his own means. -Sardaukar Blackfang 16:44, 13 November 2007 (CET)


 * I agree with you on this. I would be sad to see this site go.  The long term fix is to see if PvXwiki can join with wikia.  I look forward to using this site in the future and supporting it through its move to wikia! Lady linas 20:02, 13 November 2007 (CET)


 * This is definately the best idea out of them all, I completely forgot about it lol. I support this 100%, Guild Wiki seemed to transfere accross pretty easily, I don't see why not! --Peter 20:39, 13 November 2007 (CET)

Methinks....
Gcardinal has gotten a little green-eyed lokking at the $62,000 USD Phil (Gravewit) got from the sale of GWiki and the other gamewikis. Ignoring the users, and every idea but the transfer to Wikia, based on nonsensical information and questionable 'facts.' Making no attempts to consult with the admins here, or even with those who made a financial contribution to the site. Entering talks with Wikia less than 2 days after posting the financial problem here. Wrestle with those facts for a while. All the viable alternatives to the Wikia transfer are being rejected above, and that's not right. I will not support a transfer to a for-profit organization or individual, and expressly forbid my contributions made to the site under the CC NC-SA license to be released for commercial purposes. If you follow through with the transfer to Wikia, without giving any of the valid suggestions made by the users here a chance, you will do so without every edit and article I have made here. Please, don't take this lightly. - <font face="dauphin" color="maroon">Krowman    18:32, 13 November 2007 (CET)
 * I can't remmber anyone who made any financial contribution. The only one I got was from admin of gwiki.fr and I have mailed him say thanks for the contribution. I am quite sure I never got any donation from you Krowman. And financial support you are talking are 1 donation of 100$ and 2 donations 100$ and 20$ that got my PayPal account closed. If you have any REAL suggestion - you sure do have chance to tell people about them.
 * And second no one talks about 62,000$ of what ever, please keep your personal offenses to your self. As far as I remember I am only one who payed the bill for past 6 month without ANYONE what so ever being interested in providing any financial support. gcardinal 19:59, 13 November 2007 (CET)
 * I agree with Krowman, and also forbid my contributions to the site to be released. Unless other options are properly considered, it will stay this way. - Rawrawr  18:42, 13 November 2007 (CET)
 * /agree with Rawr. I don't like the idea of my contirbutions being sold while the other alternatives haven't even begun to be considered. For instance have we considered seeing if the official wiki wants to take over?. And like You said (GC this is) we are not in any imediate need of financing it's the long term your looking at, si surely you can wait a week at least to see if other options come up? (donations may become an option again by then...) <font color="Purple">PheNaxKian (<font color="Red">T /c)[[Image:Tag_thumb.jpg|19px]] 19:22, 13 November 2007 (CET)
 * also jsut like to quote GC here a sec. And I would just remind you guys about this line: Once the total balance has reached a reasonably positive value, a transfer to a community-managed foundation can be considered.. What it basically says, when we will break away from that negative balance and will have some positive one PvXwiki can be considered transfered to community-managed foundation. (found here) can i ask what happened to that plan? <font color="Purple">PheNaxKian (<font color="Red">T /c)[[Image:Tag_thumb.jpg|19px]] 19:30, 13 November 2007 (CET)
 * Only 1 donation was made from person who is not even active member and there was no interest what so ever to cover up for negative balance. So that plan is pretty much dead as there is no interest in the community. gcardinal 19:59, 13 November 2007 (CET)
 * And when it comes to suggested from memmbers of the community, if anyone can come up with a financial plan based on REAL numbers, REAL ad's and if donations REAL promises from the memmber of the PvXwiki on how much and when they are going to donate. If such plan will be made and both me and Hhhippo will find it possible I will give it a try.
 * And again, I have only contacted Wikia in order to check if they are interested. gcardinal 20:02, 13 November 2007 (CET)
 * I respect these points, but when it comes to donations you have to remember that the majority of the community is probably still in some form of education, and probably doesn't earn that much money, i know that i fall into that category, and while i would try and donate now and then i physically can't due to age restrictions on pay pal (you need to be at least 18 to sign up i'm only 16 1/2).
 * I understand your want for facts to support our suggestions, but again maybe not all of us know where to find said information that's reliable (i don't think you could just search on Google or wherever).
 * I don't mind that you've contacted wikia that's fine and i don't think anyones that annoyed about your reasoning it's just that you contacted them suddenly without any warning, and that seemed to be the first place you went to-i have asked several times and haven't had a response, so i shall ask again-have you tried the official wiki? would they consider taking over?, I think that would be the better of the 2 in most peoples opinions (as is eveident by people saying they don't wish things to be moved and refusing to allow the contributions to be taken over with, and you could i a way link it to guild wiki and the wikia move, more people wanted it merged with the official wiki than moved to wikia, and i think the majority of people will have used guildwiki). I would like to know that if your discussing things with wikia that your at least discussing things with Anet and the official wiki, i think that way we can all be assured that your not "in it for the money", which is what appears to be happening atm (i do say appears). <font color="Purple">PheNaxKian (<font color="Red">T /c)[[Image:Tag_thumb.jpg|19px]] 20:40, 13 November 2007 (CET)
 * From this thread:
 * And I also believe GWW has rejected having builds in its wikispace. --- Ressmonkey (talk) 03:10, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * Official wiki both will not and cannot(due to licensing) take over PvX. --Edru viransu//QQ about me/sysop 23:13, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * Official wiki is not an option. They run under GPL, will never install my extensions and so on. Its just to crazy idea. gcardinal 08:31, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * --71.229.204.25 20:45, 13 November 2007 (CET)

Gcardinal - there appear to be two real solutions here. Either Cory takes over the site (which he is willing and able to do - I'd be willing to bet he, unlike the rest of us here, could fund the site on his own for at least a year) or Wikia does. You have flat-out refused every option presented other than the Wikia move option. Because of this, I expressly forbid my contributions made to the site under the CC NC-SA license to be released for commercial purposes.

In short, if you're going to move to Wikia, you're doing so without PvX:WELL, PvX:DELETE, PvX:NAME, and the site name of PvXwiki.

-- Armond Warblade 21:16, 13 November 2007 (CET)


 * I own pvxwiki.com - you don't and I had idea of PvXwiki long before you posted it and I have also mentioned it to the other admins in chats - so just drop that BS. And ones again if you have real solution bring it up. Posting black-mail messages here pushing me to give me site to some guy I don't know will never happen. PvXwiki was based on the content from GuildWiki - transfer to Wikia will return it to original source of this site - we run on the same license as GuildWiki - we are basicly a copy of old part of GuildWiki that got developed on the same license as GuildWiki. Please don't flood with your pointless messages here - if you have REAL solution please let me know. gcardinal 21:28, 13 November 2007 (CET)


 * I don't honestly care about "returning to the original source of the site" - in fact, that would simply mean un-forking and merging with gwiki. Regardless, if you transfer us to wikia, you're doing so without the most important policy on the site, and without any other policies Krowman or I made. -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 21:37, 13 November 2007 (CET)
 * And losing alot of contributors and most the admins, it seems. - Rawrawr  21:39, 13 November 2007 (CET)
 * See, here's the way I see it: better to sell/give the site away to Wikia than for it to go down. What happens to us? We get a little advertising text box under the search box? So what. The site lives, Gcard maybe pockets some cash which he rightly deserves for making those templates (unlike Gravewit who sat on his ass and did nothing), and probably continues to make the site work. That also means we can still help the people of Guild Wars use builds that they otherwise would not have access to. I really don't see the problem here. —ǥrɩɳsɧ  ƿoɲ  22:18, 13 November 2007 (CET)
 * None of that is the issue I, personally, am looking at. We just rejected gwiki and wikia publicly, and now we're "going back to" them? -- Armond Warblade[[Image:Armond sig image.png]] 22:28, 13 November 2007 (CET)
 * The problem is, I think, that Gcardinal has shot down every other idea beyond a sale with "won't work, can't you read where I said long-term?" Ads would work long-term, might not be enough to support the site by themselves, but 450k hits a day guarantees some revenue, and he shot that down with the same argument he shot down transferring ownership to another person with.  Also, requesting temporary unblocking of Drama Llama, this page is just screaming for an appearance. --71.229.204.25 22:29, 13 November 2007 (CET)

get adds, join w/ tan, or QQ. I don't think anyone cares lulz 209.189.130.127 23:17, 13 November 2007 (CET)

PvX bought by ANet?
I think there is a fourth solution. Copying the whole script and database from PvXw to GWW. Could this be up? Dr4goN 21:10, 13 November 2007 (CET)
 * And I also believe GWW has rejected having builds in its wikispace. --- Ressmonkey (talk) 03:10, 12 November 2007 (CET) 
 * Official wiki both will not and cannot(due to licensing) take over PvX. --Edru viransu//QQ about me/sysop 23:13, 12 November 2007 (CET) 
 * Official wiki is not an option. They run under GPL, will never install my extensions and so on. Its just to crazy idea. gcardinal 08:31, 12 November 2007 (CET)
 * --71.229.204.25 21:13, 13 November 2007 (CET)


 * Read up before you post?--[[image:Victoryisyours_Sig_Image.jpg‎|19px]]<font color="darkorange" face="arial bold">Victory <font color="Brown" face="arial bold">is <font color="black" face="arial bold">yours 21:16, 13 November 2007 (CET)


 * Of the second post (the one saying why we can't go to GWW) only the second point really has any sense to it. Just because they rejected ahving a build namespace when they started doesn't mean they won't consider talking to us. As for the extensions, I'm not sure but couldn't you find someway to fix it so it would run on whatever. The only main issue really is the licensing problem. I'm no lawyer but could we not get everyone to agree to re-release their contributions under GWWs license? <font color="Purple">PheNaxKian (<font color="Red">T /c)[[Image:Tag_thumb.jpg|19px]] 21:46, 13 November 2007 (CET)
 * Even people who have QQed and one-contribution anonymii? GL HF. --71.229.204.25 21:48, 13 November 2007 (CET)
 * Well how about then we have something on the main page saying unless you sign this form you say it's ok to release your contributions under the other license (so if you sign your saying you don't want your contributions re released_. that would probably be easier (but again i'm no lawyer so i don't know if that's even viable). <font color="Purple">PheNaxKian (<font color="Red">T /c)[[Image:Tag_thumb.jpg|19px]] 21:57, 13 November 2007 (CET)
 * Nope. Can't do retroactive releases unless you contact each and every person individually and they all approve. --71.229.204.25 22:02, 13 November 2007 (CET)
 * Well the best thing i can think of is that when we sign up you have to give PvX your e-mail, so i can only assume that there's a list of them somewhere-so maybe a mass e-mail? as for the random people who jsut pop in now and then we could also stick a big notice on the main page? and then say anyone who hasn't replyed or taken action after a month agrees? (put it in the e-mail-1 month seems long enough to make sure people can read it blah blah blah) <font color="Purple">PheNaxKian (<font color="Red">T /c)[[Image:Tag_thumb.jpg|19px]] 22:13, 13 November 2007 (CET)
 * Nope. Retroactive releases have to be two-sided. --71.229.204.25 22:26, 13 November 2007 (CET)