Archive talk:A/D Beguiling Insight

Hurray. My first build submitted to the Wiki. Zuranthium 04:37, 18 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Needs a better description, tbh. Also, give a reason why the build is good enough for that rating. --Edru viransu //QQ about me 04:51, 18 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Edru has a point as far as the rating goes. You made it, therefore it's safe to assume that you like it, the question is why?  [[Image:Defiant Elements Sig Test 2.JPG|50x19px]]  *Defiant Elements*   +talk  05:18, 18 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Good point, I added more reasoning. Not all of the builds I'm going to submit are something I'd give a 5 to, though. Some are more for fun. :) Zuranthium 05:44, 18 August 2007 (CEST)

12+1+1 dagg 10+1 crit 8 3+1 shadow wind imo, you've got IAS this way and shadowy burden sucks unless on shatter/hammer/scythe. shadow refuge is a pretty bad heal, and this way you dont have to split atts so much. 5 seconds of daze should always be enough to get the kill. might have to run radiant since the chain seems kinda expensive. &mdash; Skakid9090 05:54, 18 August 2007 (CEST)
 * I don't use Shadow Refuge in my build? I agree that it's sub-par, though. "might have to run radiant since the chain seems kinda expensive."...exactly.  With your build you'll never have the energy to do the combo on recharge or do anything outside of the combo (note that my combo includes using Unsuspecting twice, yours can usually only use it once), which makes the spammability of Natural Healing pretty worthless in your build (one cast of Feigned Neutrality is FAR more efficient than 1 cast of Natural Healing anyway....the armor bonus prevents so much damage).  Also, Whirling Charge ENDS if you are not under the effects of an Enchantment. So after you attack with Wild Strike it's gone.  Additionally, the Dazed in my build lasting 2 seconds longer can certainly make a difference between a Monk dying or not. Zuranthium 06:23, 18 August 2007 (CEST)
 * I run this in AB/CM and then swap rez sig for dash and feigned neutrality for shadow refuge in AB/TA:

I use zealous daggs. When I complete the combo, I'm at 21 of 42 energy, and by the time BH recharges (20s) I'm at full. I fill up faster if I switch to non-zealous daggers or keep attacking. This bypasses the Black Spider NERF by using falling spider instead. A knockdown also helps kill monks. One Who Brings Soot
 * The problem is you have no snare. They can just run away from you until the Dazed wears off. Zuranthium 01:55, 19 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Who needs a snare when there is a knockdown and shadow step? If you're using the AB/CM build, you have dash as well.  A snare isn't always necessary.  Also, isn't lack of damage a problem for your build Zuranthium.  I mean, unsuspecting does a lot, but only conditionally, and i still dont see it killing much. One Who Brings Soot
 * The KD is only activated when you hit with a dual, until then there's nothing preventing them from kiting until daze wears off or someone removes the hex. Tycn 16:34, 2 September 2007 (CEST)
 * Yes, correct. And, no, I don't really have problems with my damage output, One Who Brings Soot. Unsuspecting is conditional but if the opposing Monk can't keep people at 90+% health then there's a good chance they are going to lose anyway. It sounds like you really haven't played the build much, if it all. Zuranthium 05:20, 9 September 2007 (CEST)

RE: Tycn's vote comment
"SP/TS with HoTO achieves practically the same thing"

Actually, it doesn't at all. #1 - Beguiling Haze is a 1/4 sec spell interrupt and applies the Daze unconditionally. #2 - The bar that you speak of does has far inferior energy management. #3 - Your bar can't spec nearly as high in Shadow Arts, so your Feigned Neutrality is weaker.

Please change your comment and possibly also re-think how the combined skill compression and energy management of the Beguiling Insight Assassin makes it superior. Zuranthium 18:34, 18 August 2007 (CEST)

SP with HoTO has a 2 second shutdown instead of 7 seconds of daze, but a stronger spike, stronger snare and anti-blocking. Energy is fine if you attack a few times while the combo is recharging. It is more fragile, but this is a team game. And Shadowy Burden's 25% snare isn't enough to stop anyone with a speed boost though, monks are just going to kite and that wastes a lot of your precious daze time. Tycn 01:33, 19 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Horns of the Ox is not guaranteed disruption...Beguiling is. I really disagree that energy is fine too, especially because you aren't always able to attack between combos.  It's RA, you might not get a healer...running away is your only defense. Zuranthium 01:54, 19 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Alright, I'll change my vote - for RA this may be better. Tycn 08:27, 19 August 2007 (CEST)

More bad reasoning
This time from Mizzouman2010...."rarely kills target with the chain and uses too much energy and has too long a recharge time to be logical for ra"...The recharge time is EXACTLY the same as it is for a standard Shadow Prison Sin. Beyond that, there's no way it uses too much energy unless you fail to click on the "Attacker's Insight" button. This build has MUCH more e-management than a normal Sin and I've absolutely never ran into problems with being able to execute my chain on recharge. Remove vote or provide assessment. Zuranthium 09:23, 19 August 2007 (CEST)


 * You can also do a Shadow Sin with AI, I have been playing one for about a week with it now.--Atlas Oranos

your NEXT attack skill is minus 11 energy. yet u cant kill the target with the chain. u eve say on the summary that u can spam unsuspecting strike as u wish. 15 energy on haze and 10 on burden and yet u cant kill ur target. the target and can be healed just a bit and still survive all ur next attack chain. your an ASSASSIN for gods sake. use a build that can kill something quick and get the hell outta there. u have to have 30 energy to use insight burden and haze if u wish to tele in. so u better hope to god u critical on unsuspecting. most of the time u have to wait to use the next skill. that is the mark of a really really bad assassin build. low dmg chain where u sometimes have to wait to chain the lead to the offhand and u cant kill your target with the chain. mizzou man  20:53, 19 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Attacker's Insight got changed. U iz wrong. --Edru viransu //QQ about me 20:57, 19 August 2007 (CEST)

wth are u talking about its your next attack skill not for the next 20 seconds. its the same thing as glyph of lesser energy except it doesnt affect 2 skills just one. Mizzou man 21:06, 19 August 2007 (CEST)
 * it got updated, bbcode didn't. &mdash; Skakid9090 21:06, 19 August 2007 (CEST)

ahhh wat is it now? Mizzou man 21:07, 19 August 2007 (CEST)

o i c.

that helps energy but the chain here doesnt kill the person. anyways so its still not usable in my book but attackers inight is a good skill. Mizzou man 21:09, 19 August 2007 (CEST)
 * If you're having problems killing people with this build in RA, you simply fail. I've gotten many Glad points with it on bad teams. Zuranthium 00:48, 20 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Okay... this build works, but not well enough to get a good rating. I never run into energy management problems and the recharge is fine, but this build is crap as a sin.  It's prcatically a pressure sin.  There is no spike.  Conditions are nowhere to be found, and knockdowns are completely absent(until the end when they lose their point),  A squishy could take this, without blocking (of which this is very susceptible to) and still have plenty of health at the end.  A monk just puts up guardian, or reversal of fortune one time and this build gets screwed over.  76.189.242.223 21:10, 21 August 2007 (CEST)One Who Brings Soot
 * Question: how does a monk put up guardian against a BHaze sin? --Edru viransu //QQ about me 21:11, 21 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Answer: Easily. Any monk with half a brain will put up some kind of protective enchantment when a sin runs up to its casting range and the sin starts casting..."hmmmm, hex maybe?" PS, Guardian, Aegis, RoF, Spirit Bond, etc.  Either way, the sin has no chance of killing before the daze wears off, so he can heal out later.  On top of that, RoF is 1/4 s cast, 1/2 while dazed, with an assassin attacking with no IAS and no quick dagger attacks, RoF is easy to get off.  One Who Brings Soot
 * To be more specific: how does a monk use guardian while dazed and/or within range of a sin with a ranged spell interrupt? --Edru viransu //<font color="Red">QQ about me 21:18, 21 August 2007 (CEST)
 * To repeat what i said, the sin has no chance of killing before the daze wears off, so the monk can heal out later. On top of that, RoF is 1/4 s cast, 1/2 while dazed, with an assassin attacking with no IAS and no quick dagger attacks, RoF is easy to get off, and it completely shuts down this build.One Who Brings Soot
 * Since you're always going to be the only person attacking that Monk. Right? Zuranthium 20:51, 24 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Okay, Zuranthium, try to follow this. Sins are made for taking down a single target fast.  This sin is an anti-caster...and yet you are telling me that it is unable to take down a caster alone?  It needs help?  If you want energy management that bad, and don't care about killing anything, take a warrior with Skull Crack.  I mean come on already, that's been the whole point of sins since they were introduced... One Who Brings Soot
 * No, it's definitely able to take a caster down alone...just not a (good) Monk. No single character can take down a good Monk, though. I'd suggest that you actually go play the build (in RA, since that's what it was created for). It's very effective. Zuranthium 20:19, 17 November 2007 (CET)

Mizzouman2010 has changed his vote yet again with reasoning that GOLDEN SKULL STRIKE dazes a target easier than Beguiling Haze. Hopefully a moderator finds this to be as laughable as I do and removes his vote. Perma-banning said user from voting on the subject wouldn't cause me to lose sleep either -- he has now TWICE written incoherent votes. Zuranthium 20:55, 24 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Such an action(which isn't possible anyway, with the current way Real Vetting's implemented) would be deeply inconsistent with PvXwiki's voting policies. Anyone can vote, as long as they've got a good reason for it. Nonsense and idiocy like saying mending is good or a team build loses against every build people use, including itself, gets removed, but the person who said it is free to provide a less idiotic vote later. --<font color="Black">Edru viransu //<font color="Red">QQ about me /sysop 22:18, 24 August 2007 (CEST)
 * Let's hope they are able to do so. xD Zuranthium 23:03, 24 August 2007 (CEST)
 * What's this I'm hearing about Mending not being good? Eh? Speak up! - Vermain 23:27, 24 August 2007 (CEST)

Shadowy Burden
Is shit, -20 armor vs daggers isn't a lot. Take it out and the other points and skill in shadow arts and you can bring something like Natural Healing which will let you A. use a minor instead of a major or B. deal more damage. Daze only needs to last a few seconds to int all their healing skills. — Skakid9090 05:13, 19 November 2007 (CET)

Hex vs. Crippled
I was wondering about changing out Shadowy Burden for Caltrops. If you used Beguiling Haze followed by Caltrops, you would at worst cover the Dazed with Crippled. This takes Holy Veil out of the entire equation. You don't get the potential -20 armor but I think almost every team I've been on has a full time hexer, you wouldn't see it anyways. Fun build though. CruelPhate 04:08, 21 December 2007 (EST)

I tought Beguiling has an aftercast delay but worked quite well with Caltrops. Any opposition for changing the main bar? cKowDont 17:56, 28 December 2007 (EST)


 * Caltrops just had it's recharge time REDUCED. I don't see why it shouldn't replacing Shadowy Burden. CruelPhate 15:44, 21 January 2008 (EST)


 * Caltrops in the new form is nice. I played around with it a bit in this build a couple days ago and usually like it more than Shadowy Burden. Thanks for updating the build - I hadn't been on PvX for over a month. Zuranthium 03:28, 30 January 2008 (EST)

holy viel is a counter because? Banok 13:08, 3 February 2008 (EST)
 * Because you're lazy to remove it that is. ~ <font color="#444">ĐONT <font color="#444">* <font color="#444">TALK  15:06, 3 February 2008 (EST)