Build talk:P/any Heroic Refrain Spear

Works
We ran it in DoA HM with signet of aggression, but without natural temper. Works. --Krschkr (talk) 01:29, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Free 33% adrenaline gain, why not? --Xanshiz (talk) 02:07, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Enchantments aren't that rare in player teams. --Krschkr (talk) 03:02, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Please nerf desperately
5 Mesmer heroes at 20 dom/illu and 20 fast casting. An ST with 20 communing and 19 Spawning (4 ST charges!), a BiP that heals like a truck with infinite energy. All easily maintainable while afking SY and TNtF for infinite defense. Please don't make this meta... --Xanshiz (talk) 02:12, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * It will be the meta. Can you make a new team build page for it once you've done some refining on the mesmers? --Krschkr (talk) 02:56, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Yea I'll work on that. --Xanshiz (talk) 02:59, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Great. I think it makes sense to keep these in trial for the moment. Although this bar mostly looks like a winner already that'll stay with us forever, unless they nerf it. --Krschkr (talk) 03:03, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Thank you Anet! Now nerf it harder. --Xanshiz (talk) 01:26, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
 * How huge is this nerf? Seems like +4 is still possible but it doesn't feel like a best-in-game vibe anymore considering the near 0 player dps. Cptretardo (talk) 02:10, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
 * +4 attributes still certainly seems like the best comp without a doubt to me. But hey, what do I know? --Xanshiz (talk) 02:15, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Certainly still strong, but maybe no longer broken. --DefinitelyNotHanz (talk) 09:02, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

"They're on Fire"
This has the immense quality of life that it can be cast on cooldown to guarantee 100% uptime of Heroic Refrain without needing to worry about a) staggering it with another skill, or b) other skills ending early (if taking Fall Back or Can't Touch This, for instance). I'm going to try swapping to that variant to see how it goes. --Xanshiz (talk) 02:12, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Isn't blazing finale a bit overkill? Sure, you get the sweet damage reduction from TaoF (it's something like 42% with 20 leadership?), but do you even need that with that long-lasting TNTF and SY? --Krschkr (talk) 03:00, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * It's absolutely overkill. But now you have 5 layers of defense instead of 4! Just felt weird listing They're on Fire without any burning, but I a command variant if one would prefer. What other optional skills am I missing? It seems like there are a few key skills and a lot of fillers. --Xanshiz (talk) 03:15, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Idk yet. My main concern is that any skill with a casting time will distract you from getting adrenaline for SY. I'll think about this when I've had a bit of sleep. Good luck testing. --Krschkr (talk) 03:37, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if this skill is necessary tbh, most comps run the speed boost command shouts on heroes which should already be enough. But if we do keep "They're on fire!" I wonder if squeezing some AoE burning into the build or team comp would be worth it. That permanent 45% reduction sounds massive. --DefinitelyNotHanz (talk) 17:21, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * The problem with command shouts on heroes is that they are unreliable. For instance, say 7/8 party member are affected by fall back from hero 1. Hero 2 will instantly cast fall back (because it's not on the 8th player), thus renewing the shout on all other party members without renewing Heroic Refrain. Another instance where things could go wrong is during combat, where heroes don't necessarily use fall back if everyone is standing still. Taking up one skill slot to all but guarantee that Heroic Refrain will be maintained indefinitely on everyone seems like it's worth it.
 * Burning certainly would be attractive, especially since there are 20 points in leadership with "They're On Fire!". The problem is, with mercenaries, there isn't an easy way to slot it in without giving up a very valuable party member. I'd rather have an extra energy surger than, say, a fire ele that spreads burning.
 * On the non-mercenary team, however, burning is definitely an attractive option. Right now, the page lists two EA elementalists with rodgorts. I have not tried this setup yet, but I think it's an interesting idea. --Xanshiz (talk) 05:41, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Mending Refrain
Why not add this? With 2 attribute points invested in motivation you can get a continous +3 health regeneration on your whole team - ToF! is enough to keep it up together with HR --Haquillo (talk) 21:55, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
 * That's a great idea, maybe even mainbar worthy. I'll list it as an optional, test it some, and see if others have feedback. --Xanshiz (talk) 00:41, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
 * So I found it can kind of annoying to upkeep due to lower (15s versus 19s) duration, making it less likely to be covered by miscellaneous shouts if ToF misses. But...I think it could easily be plopped on a hero instead? The hero only needs 2 motivation, you can manually cast it at the start alongside Heroic Refrain, and then the hero will recast it if it occasionally drops, opening a slot up for you. Just something to think about. --Xanshiz (talk) 11:10, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I haven't found the time myself to try it yet, but giving it to a hero sounds like a good idea. possibly the Inept-Mesmer since that one seems to have an overshoot of energy.
 * On another note: One could also consider adding anthem of flame somewhere on a hero seeing as they spam it and thus keep the echoes up for you. (Other than ease of use it doesn't really add anything. Same like ToF. - I guess I will have to level my paragon a bit to get to trying these things rather than just theory-crafting them. --Haquillo (talk) 18:30, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I just went out and tried anthem, and you're right heroes do spam it and it does a rather solid job of keeping the echos up. One issue is that it made the hero lag behind a bit after fights. Presumably this would go on the ST, since I wouldn't want a 20 Dom/20 FC Mesmer to be casting Anthem of Flame every 10 seconds. Is freeing up a player spot all that important, however? There aren't many skills I'd desperately want to take, and ToF is a 0 energy 0 cast time way to gaurantee maintaining it (heroes are prone to being stupid).
 * Mending refrain could go on the inept, but you lose the res, so either stick with two resses or put a res on the ST. Or an alternative would just be to put mending refrain on the ST -- it has an open spot. But perhaps we should shift this conversation to the team build page. --Xanshiz (talk) 05:28, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * In fact I just checked the Team-Build page to look for this discussion. Good idea to placeit on the ST. --Haquillo (talk) 06:42, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Name
Any silly name for this in the community? I've heard Ultragon a couple of times. Might want to make a redirect if it gets popular. --Krschkr (talk) 18:08, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I keep thinking of the HR department... -- DANDY ^_^ -- 01:39, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
 * There was a stalemate between the autobots and decepticons, until the Ultragons attacked. IMO keep the -gon name thing going for paragons, Ultragon fits well.Willarddog (talk) 13:43, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Meta tag?
Perhaps this (and other Heroic Refrain setups) should be given a meta tag. --Xanshiz (talk) 07:08, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Thoughts on a slight rewrite?
User:Xanshiz/P/any Heroic Refrain Spear -- Save Yourselves isn't core to the build, so you could consider a more offensive spear setup in areas where SY would otherwise be wasteful. I generally prefer the DPS spear option over daggers if I am looking for a more aggressive variant. --Xanshiz (talk) 08:48, 22 December 2020 (UTC)