User talk:Excluded/Team - General Physway/Archive 1

lolphysway.--Digitalfear 20:33, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

No adding silly stuff please
This has been test a lot and...yeah. Someone get to rating this. o.o Cuilan 20:33, April 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * A lot? It's been used in EVERY area in GW on HM without too much trouble. About the rating, deserves 5-5-x tbh.Digitalfear 20:38, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

It's had over a year's worth of testing. Excluded 20:39, April 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * No need for trial actually, moving this to testing...Digitalfear 20:49, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Lose Well of Blood. Get a less terrible rez on the necro. Mainbar an erf shakur and lose armor of unfeeling. Life   Guardian  21:13, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Earthshaker isn't mainbar material; only for areas with ridiculously sized mobs, and there aren't many of those. The res is pretty much optional; anything but Rebirth, really. Instead of saying "lose Well of Blood", what would you suggest instead?Excluded 21:24, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * The necromancer has a wonderful rez that recharges and casts nicely. Why would a rit not have Armor of Unfeeling...? Cuilan 21:26, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * no other way to add so many damage packets to a set up that physway.<3 . No other team can add as many damage packets than a buffed up physway..gdw+earthbind powered sins > urfshakur here &gt;&gt;Jayson&lt;&lt;&lt; 02:56, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Not if you know how to pull. Life   Guardian  02:58, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Copy+Paste
You do a good job at it.--Ikimono ...And my Axe! 21:14, April 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks.Digitalfear 21:24, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Also To let your healers sit on their hands for even more ease.--Ikimono ...And my Axe! [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png]] 21:28, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * The sins are very busy with these builds and it's the eles job to do the healing and protection, not the assassin's job. Also, what was copy and pasted? Cuilan 21:31, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * i assume he meant the sin having 75% block... not that an a/w would be healing.. sigh.  Akio _Ka  t  suragi   [[File:Akio_Katsuragi_Sig.jpg]] 21:34, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * You read things too literally. Cuilan 21:39, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * reading analytically never got anyone killed ;o  Akio _Ka  t  suragi   [[File:Akio_Katsuragi_Sig.jpg]] 21:42, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Where that soldier's Stance build may be fine in most cases; it would be poor here, as you are aiming to create as much DPS as possible with these builds. Soldier's Stance would mean you'd have to go 10/10/11 and you'd lack energy to spam as often. Less buffs, less damage, more QQ. As far as I'm aware WotA is the best elite for the job. Excluded 22:04, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * You loose 1 damage. The crit lost is about 4% crit chance (not sure with the multipliers) but it's a negligible amount. Zealous Daggers. 33% attack speed, 75% block.--Ikimono ...And my Axe! [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png]] 23:45, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's about compression--WotA maxes out IAS under celerity and only takes 1 skill slot. That means you are free to run 3 PvE skills or whatever else you need behind it rather than just 2.  71.56.32.57 00:12, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

clean up
^ do it. needs an overview, needs clear distinction of what is absolutely necessary and what isn't. needs a clear distinction between what needs to be a human and what isnt. - Athrun Feya  - 01:30, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Will give it a shot with my bad wiki skills ;o--Digitalfear 02:30, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * a general physicalway pretty much means well/deletion.-- Relyk  talk  02:45, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Going to have to agree with that. Cuilan 03:02, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Too generic?--Digitalfear 03:25, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well there's no point to it since it doesn't do specific high-end areas. If you did that, the article would be split up into physicalways for each area since you can't put that all on one page. Then it would be welled as inferior to other builds that do the same areas which people actually use. Unless it works better, which I seriously doubt since randomway physical is very unreliable in pve (compared to ball->nuke->profit). That's if you want a technical explanation. Mostly it's because general articles are useless to people.-- Relyk  talk  04:07, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Suppose we could stick to WotA sins.--Digitalfear 04:10, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sins are always prefered for this and this team build doesn't need to be listed for specific areas if it rolls through them anyway. Cuilan 08:37, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Uh, sorry. I'm terrible at explaining what needs to be done. Basically the article currently looks like a guide into making a physway team and although the dual ele backline is very good, the lack of coherency in the rest of the build lets it down significantly. You need to really decide what in the team build is absolutely necessary and focus on optimising that. Currently the build tells me that 8 organised players are required (which you'd be exceedingly lucky to find) and that you should only use WotA sins as physicals. When I look at this I think "why are these builds listed specifically?" since any physical (maybe even heroes) would do. The answer is they shouldn't be there at all, really all this build should be is the dual ele backline (and possibly the gdw/earthbind combination, but i'm not sure that's entirely necessary, splinter > GDW). Reducing the number of required human players in any build is generally a very good move, especially when it is for general PvE. I think I'm going to put this build back in trial and vote wipe it until these things are ironed out (unless anyone has any strong opposition, within reason). - Athrun Feya  - 13:27, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * You lost me after 'splinter > GDW', do you actually play Guild Wars? 71.56.32.57 14:32, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Splinter drops off pretty quickly and isn't so hot when there aren't many foes close. GDW also is used to prevent damage and heals, etc. Cuilan 15:55, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * erf shakur + splinter is still really a better way to go :p - Athrun Feya [[Image:Lau_bfly.gif]] - 16:16, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Lulz at even questioning that splinter>gdw. Life   Guardian  17:14, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yep, as it fits in the nicely compressed ele builds that have the energy to keep casting it. Can't go E/Mo/Rit. Cuilan 17:18, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * No, i'm saying that splinter is better. Life   Guardian  17:25, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Then you're either lying or wrong. Splinter may be good sometimes, but it cannot be maintained. The two ERs with an essence will be able to maintain it on the whole party, allowing maximum damage output and a spot of defence too. Try and understand when I say "overkill defence combined with overkill damage." Excluded 17:45, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Kay, with gdw, you output a little extra damage to single targets(3 with a scythe). With splinter and a scythe, you do ~60 damage to 18 targets. With Whirlwind, you would do ~60 damage to 36 targets(6 per trigger of splinter). Lrn2pull and watch the explosions. It's one main reason why erf shakur owns. Erf shakur+crude+whirlwind with splinter weapon can qknock mobs and kill them solo =\ Life   Guardian  18:08, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Learn to kill things really fast, which makes pulling seem like a waste of time. By the way, Splinter activates three times then ends. Whether you use it with Barrage or Earthshaker, silly. Excluded 18:22, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Learn to read the skills. You can't argue that SW is better if you don't even know the function of it.92.30.50.15 18:32, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * So i herd splinter triggers 3 times for the next 6 attacks. I accidentally counted 2 swings for both scythe and whirlwind, but that's not very hard to achieve on a scythe because eremite's+mystic under an ims is very quick. Also, balling saves tons of time. Life   Guardian  18:39, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, i have to admit, my proofreading is ftl. Life   Guardian  18:40, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Where is this magical Splinter Weapon appearing from? And what would you have the ERs run instead of GDW? Where would the rit get energy from to spam SW? UMAD? Our survey says yes. +20 damage for 20 seconds is rather good, don't you think? Seeing as you don't have to keep re-applying it every 5 seconds. Well, the eles CAN reapply it every 5 seconds; but to the extent that every physical will be under it. So it turns from +20 damage to +80. By the way, Death Blossom is our way of making the foes in adjacent range feel more insecure. Excluded 19:04, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Considering that armor of unfeeling on the rit is a waste, dropping that for spirit siphon and bringing splinter in the optional is extremely effective, and will actually give you the energy to spam Painful Bond. As it is, you don't need 2 copies of GDW, and yet you bring 2. Keep one copy for 2 physicals, and bring an erf shakur+something with a scythe and spam splinter on them. Life   Guardian  19:14, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * No spare slot on Rit. Summon Spirits is required, or the spirits will lag behind ALL_THE_TIME. Recharge_time_too_high. GDW>Splinter. WotA sins>Earthshaker for DPS. Conclusion: You are an idiot. End. Excluded 20:24, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Armor of Unfeeling is a must. I can't believe someone thinks otherwise unless they've never spirit spammed, no offense. Cuilan 20:32, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * I've gone through every dungeon in the game in HM with spiritspam heroes, and haven't used armor of unfeeling once. There's no real reason why your spirits should get agro. You should probably add summon spirits to the rit bar, cuz atm there is no summon spirits on the bar. You are seriously terrible if you think GDW>splinter. Easiest solution is to drop GDW off of one of the eles, replace that with a rez, remove fomf and AoU off of the rit, and put splinter weapon and siphon spirit. Life   Guardian  20:39, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * leave a gap for GoS on the eles at least, so you're not forced to use essence in random pve, lol. - Athrun Feya [[Image:Lau_bfly.gif]] - 20:51, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

^In areas where you don't need essence, you can bond w/o GoS. Waste of a skill slot. I am also amazed at the ignorance of a few people here. Just because the build doesn't ball and aoe spike you try to claim it is bad? How about you actually try it. This team is basically the opposite of tank and spank.
 * There's a difference between balling and tank and spank. Life   Guardian  23:32, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Great Dwarf Weapon goes with Earthbind. Rapid fast dagger attacks goes with the chance of knock down. Not everyone H/H everything, farms, PUGs, or only plays with guildies. This team set up works and you (any of you) shouldn't assume everyone plays like you. If there are reviews that rate it poorly because of that, they should be removed. Cuilan 23:51, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Having 1 war take agro and ball as much as he can(usually on himself) is the fastest and most effective way to kill shit, especially when using mop/aoe attacks such as db, whirlwind, a scythe, etc. Another point, your team is invincible, why does a kd matter so much? Erf shakur is strong because it has 2 excellent splinter distributors, as well as keeping entire groups on their ass for other chars to explode with aoe attacks. Life   Guardian  00:00, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Balling is nice and all, but warriors have high armor which effects the game's AI, balling takes time as players have to wait, not all foes ball, and blood builds don't cause scatter. Cuilan 00:05, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Taking 10 seconds to ball a group is much more efficient than killing individual spread out targets. It is also extremely easy to make a decent ball by abusing walls(gets all melee on you), or by selecting a caster, touching agro, running back a few steps and then dcing to said caster. Life   Guardian  00:09, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's also completely unnecessary when your frontline can do 200+DPS -EACH-. Why bother to ball anything up when even an Aatxe, which has some of the highest hp of any normal monster in PvE, dies in less than 5 seconds.  71.56.32.57 00:21, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * So kill 1 foe in 5 seconds, or kill 3+ in 5 seconds? I think balling wins. Life   Guardian  00:22, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Alright I'm convinced you are trolling now, +1 internets for you good sir. 71.56.32.57 00:35, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * If trolling=talking sense, then yes, i be trollin'. Life   Guardian  00:49, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, you are trolling. So is the admin. You are all twisted over your love of tank and spank you don't even know what it is; "One warrior balling shit..." Oh wait, that's not tank n spank is it nao? nnonononono.... Another point of synergy you probably didn't notice was that each damage packet someone takes= -4 energy on one of the eles. If the eles run out of energy everyone loses Prot bond and they all die. Again, the spirits are there to lure bigger groups and to absorb more damage packets. This is what the Knockdowns are for. So when you made a point about Spirits not having to aggro, you didn't read why the hell I put one in there in the first place.

What we learned By the way, aren't you supposed to actually try this in a trial or Testing before concluding it's good/bad? Excluded 10:56, April 14, 2010 (UTC) - Athrun Feya  - 12:20, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * To read
 * To be less troll
 * To proofread
 * Understand other people's ideas, instead of going "NOT TANKNSPANK WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF DELETE"
 * Choosing to play tank and spank style or c-spacing through PvE isn't case of picking black or white. There's a huge grey areas of things you can do using inherent monster behaviour, which Life would call "balling", though I think that's misleading (since he makes it sound like something that actually takes effort). Have you ever noticed that most enemies run into a group when you step close (before aggroing)? Use that, abuse that. Instead of c-spacing and hoping elebonders, knockdowns and meatwalls take damage, slap on "I Am Unstoppable!" or similar and Shadow Step right into the middle of them. Distributing Splinter Weapon with skills such as Crude Swing and Whirlwind Attack makes it possible to kill the group quickly, with very little effort. This is significantly more effective (on both offensive and defensive sides - and doesn't require an essence!) than having 4 PuGs rawrchopchop their closest target. I'm completely perplexed as to why people seem to only be capable of operating at either end of the pulling spectrum, it seems obvious that killing a number of things together is a better way to play (not only quicker but it means less pressure on healers so you don't need a ridiculous team to get things done) but orchestrated tank'n'spank isn't realistic in general PvE.
 * About having to test builds before forming an option, I'll quote to you the words of a wise player "It doesnt require a whole lot of skill to rate a build without testing it. The funny thing about computers and machines is, everything does what it says it's going to do. So you look at atts, skills, etc. and you can pretty much judge a build. It's not like judging an athlete or student, where a weak or dumb looking person can suprise you. Weak skills with weak synergy are, well, weak."
 * So we've come full circle then. Did you know that splinter ends on a single whirlwind/crude swing on the ball?  You don't get to keep spamming splinter hits for duration like GDW it ends after X hits.  All these AoE attacks you guys keep suggesting trigger separate attacks thus ending the spell.  If we really wanted to run lolAoE then we would take a MoP necro but guess what?  Through months of trial and error we discovered that under 200+ DPS things die so fast the MoP has no effect much less that not everyone will t-space calls.  71.56.32.112 14:16, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Splinter ends having done 900 damage over a few seconds (takes ~1-2 swings to completely run out, depending on the side of the group you're against) and even heroes manage to recast on the right people (as long as you dont flood the team with martial weapons). You don't need splinter beyond that point because the group is dead. - <font color="SteelBlue">Athrun <font color="Black">Feya [[Image:Lau_bfly.gif]] - 15:34, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * What are you guys on about? Wasn't this build cleaned up already? Also loltank&spank. That tactic is more or less dead for most of general PvE purposes except for dungeons where it is extremely effective. Even then tank & spank in gw is nowhere as boring as in other games. I mean seriously, where else do you see warriors being nukers that blow up mobs in an epic ball of light from splinter and mop? It's wonderfulez! x3 Oh and I haven't read the wall 'o' text. Also hai Lau. I remember you from FoW...twice. First time was back in ursan days but we failed and you left and second time was not so long ago actually and we dint fail. :3 --Myotheraccount 15:46, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Lolwut. You must have been in teams with me for the two times i've ever pugged. - <font color="SteelBlue">Athrun <font color="Black">Feya [[Image:Lau_bfly.gif]] - 15:49, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thats means I was in your pt every time you pugged. Nais. :3 --Myotheraccount 15:53, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * well its 795 @ 16 but still^ (not counting buh ect as heroes cant, and before EBsoH) 3 packets of 53 x 5 attacks in best case hitting the 3 adjacents.  Works out at just under 120dps factoring cast, aftercast and used on recharge perfectly. the spike is nice ^ unless you play pugstyle/ursanway-zerg against smaller groups that you just steamroll thru without breaking pace. If you get what im saying, busy so lazy, blah blah..TLDR smaller mobs die quicker than the ballin would take. Bigger goups, agro techniques >   &gt;&gt;Jayson&lt;&lt;&lt; 15:56, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed on TLDR part. --Myotheraccount 15:59, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * BuH! on the tank increases splinter weapon damage since they're the one that sees the numbers - <font color="SteelBlue">Athrun <font color="Black">Feya [[Image:Lau_bfly.gif]] - 16:06, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * again a shame heroes cant take buh,xD 795 hero, 993 player. as i said good spike,providing its worth your time to ball up, eg more than a couple of enemies in the vicinity &gt;&gt;Jayson&lt;&lt;&lt; 16:31, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Cons :p 6 triggerzzzz. Life   Guardian  16:40, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Right; and a small note that this, being a general build, will face mobs of all shapes and sizes. Preparing for big mobs will just slow you down on the small stuff. But anyway, the sins with Death Blossom deal plenty of AoE Damage; though not sure if SoH or GDW factor into it's damage. Excluded 16:45, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * And i was only goin by the note about cons only been an essence ^ :P but yah.. 6 if you take a grail, conceded :D and gdw/soh dont affect the blossom aoe as its not a direct, its 2ndry affect. ebsoh tho i think increases the packet damage from teh blossom aoe&gt;&gt;Jayson&lt;&lt;&lt; 16:49, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * They don't. Also, in most 8 man areas the mobs will be large enough for mass aoe to make a difference. Tbh, I'm really confused why you're so reluctant to put Splinter on the build. Does it really hurt anything? The only thing it could possibly do is increase effectiveness. You could have your 3 pugs cspacing with GDW, and your one player who actually knows how to do shit going after the groups and fucking them up with splinter and db. Btw, eles would only lose 3 energy cuz of the grail. Life   Guardian  16:56, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, you didnt understand what I said. If a hero uses Splinter on you as a melee char and you have urals up on the melee char, it will effect Splinter, even if the hero could use buh it wouldnt do any more damage. - <font color="SteelBlue">Athrun <font color="Black">Feya [[Image:Lau_bfly.gif]] - 17:20, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * i did ^^ but i was talkin about with the heroes running the melee role too as thats been a big revert point here :D sorry for not making that too clear! slight crossed wires ^ &gt;&gt;Jayson&lt;&lt;&lt; 22:43, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

Too general? What about Barrage/Pet shit?
Explain yourselves. We can do Tombs faster. We could do UW faster than them. Excluded 06:00, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * B/P is only used in Tombs. :> Maybe you should turn this into a ToPK build. Because for other elite instances it's slower than SC we already got. For general PvE it's redundant. You got heroes for a reason. --Myotheraccount 10:54, April 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * Firstly, it's not area-specific because it can be run effectively everywhere. It's a balanced team, so you cannot compare it to Speedclear builds. It's not redundant in general PvE, because people like me still like to PUG successfully. It's used mostly in HM dungeons and UW. Also the Deep with a 12-man variant. Excluded 12:09, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Not everyone plays with bots. Cuilan 15:53, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

guide
As this has been welled for not been a proper "team" as per the usual pvx stuff and well tag....would this not be better suited as a guide as instead of a build? the concept and information here is solid and usefull....similar to the "discordway guide" i saw a few days back? just a thought &gt;&gt;Jayson&lt;&lt;&lt; 13:50, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * yeah, making a "general physicalway" guide (link: Guide:General Physicalway)would be good. explaining what teams are made of (4-5 frontliners, midline, backline), common skills, common usage, common builds, etc. - <font color="SteelBlue">Athrun <font color="Black">Feya [[Image:Lau_bfly.gif]] - 14:01, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Well, we would make a guide, but you've changed all the things on the page. We don't use heroes yet you've edited the build so it looks like this is intended to be used with them, it isn't. You also removed the assassin builds, which is a massive part of the team. So, do you want us to make a guide on this teambuild, or your variant of it?Roarer 21:43, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Head shot. Cuilan 22:34, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * I believe you fail to understand just how much pve experience Lau has, ;o also, if you dont understand how to micro and use hero's effectively, of course they cant run a build, but if you do, then her edit is 100% viable. ;o In a general pve build that doesn't allow for the option of hero's in it is obsolete. Only if you have an armada of general pve gun totin' buddies, or doing sc things will you need 8 retards little people playin' gil wurs and lol'ing at their massive E Ex Pee in this game.  Akio _Ka  t  suragi   [[File:Akio_Katsuragi_Sig.jpg]] 15:13, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * devils advocate,so ppl dont take offence :D i think you forget just how much exp anyone else could also have also, just they arent known around pvx land xD ^OT, hero's, hero/hench melee ai IS shite! thats not in dispute.. but, not everyone wants to/cares enough to/can  run with 8 ppl in a team, so there really should be an option (whet her its a gimped down ai usable bar or not) for them if this is to be vetted for genpop as a shitton of people like their heroes to fill slots^ &gt;&gt;Jayson&lt;&lt;&lt; 15:27, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thats why you have to learn to compensate and make lemonade outta your hero's ;o lol. and yeah, the option for hero's needs to be there for that sole reason of, i dont feel like waiting for pugs, i'll throw this on and micro. If you have time and want people, do it. but if you wanna just get the shit over with cuz pve is boring for more than 3hrs 30 mins at a time, then just use AI. btw agreeing, this isn't an arguement, although really not agreeing either, this is just a statement. yeah... to avoid confusion.  Akio _Ka  t  suragi   [[File:Akio_Katsuragi_Sig.jpg]] 15:43, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * I said no to the physical heroes because they're *total* retards, as opposed to pugs. Hero ERs cannot use PB, because they do not spam enough to maintain energy. Hero rits lack Summon Spirits and therefore are slow as shit. So the only hero you could realistically have is the Physical buffer. Excluded 16:49, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

Can we stop this hero argument, this teambuild IS NOT intended to be used with heroes. The reason we don't use meele heroes is the same reason you won't see teams of 8 humans running discord: Its a f*cking stupid idea.Roarer 18:58, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

Fair trials

 * Don't jump to conclusions.
 * Try it three times.
 * Don't suck while using it on purpose because you think it's faggy.
 * Heroes suck on purpose.
 * A guide is pointless anyway; builds are straightforward. Not even a retard can run a physical in this team and die, they're so heavily protted. Just c-space and get healed by Blood Bond/OoV. You're not going to be able to micro the physicals and melee AI is retarded beyond assistance.
 * SO easy to form PUGs with, that's what makes this so unnecessary to bring heroes for melee roles.Excluded 17:06, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * heros int at a god level---<font color="#0000ff"> X <font color="#696969"> TREME 21:04, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

Why
Do you need two ER infusers? Such a waste. They haz uber pewpew heals and only one is enough to keep your party alive. Oh and since you run physicals you can expect some SY! and TNtF! action that will reduce the damage taken greatly. Physicals will also recieve some heal from OoV and BB. :> Drop one infuser and get a minion bomber hero. Also fix the rit bar because it has those useless communing spells but doesnt have PwK, Splinter and Arage. Must have skills are a must. --Myotheraccount 21:11, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's cuz 1 takes big energy loss when bonding 8 party members. Life   Guardian  21:20, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * why not just infuse even if not needed?---<font color="#0000ff"> X <font color="#696969"> TREME 22:23, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh that. I just came back to GWs so my senses are a bit down. Now I don't get why you need prot bond. ^_____^ --Myotheraccount 22:53, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well for example. My team start ZB (Oozepits as I write this) and we go out without bonds. Skale dervish outside use Mystic twister in a mob of 6 or so. Frontliners get pwnt in 2 seconds, no time to heal. We go back with Prot Bond on everyone (no essence required, just take it easy) and they survive easily, and things die quick. Excluded 23:09, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Your team died...against skale....wat. Life   Guardian  23:17, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, how long did it take you to do ooze pit? Life   Guardian  23:21, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * 13 minutes when the chest spawned; and the oozes that spawned after bosses died took an extra 10 seconds to kill. Also there was some faffing about at the boulders, because we're not Indiana Jones.  Minion || Excluded 23:37, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Lol, only beat EFGJack by 2 minutes, and he did it with heroes :p. One massive point toward killing shit in a ball>random cspacing. If all your physicals had had death's charge, you wouldve cut off quite a bit of time =\ But, gz on a quick run :p Life   Guardian  00:11, April 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * We pugged it ;p Could be 10 mins easily with less moronic people =\--<font color="Green">Digitalfear 00:15, April 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but of course it's prot-heavy for that reason; people can pay less attention to what they're doing and make more mistakes. It was a fun run with some good PUGs. Actually, we can do it faster, by running past alot of mobs. However we weren't in it for time, we were in it for success, and there's more risk in running without party heals. Minion || Excluded 00:24, April 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * What would it take to convince you that this is not manlyspike? We do not ball, we don't tank and we don't need to DC into a call for the spike.  Do you need to be invited to a run?  71.56.32.112 00:35, April 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * What would it take to convince you that dcing into balls that are already fucking there is faster than letting them all scatter? Life   Guardian  00:38, April 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * ^Does have a point but DC takes up another skill slot which means less damage =\--<font color="Green">Digitalfear 01:01, April 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Let's take a look at the bar as originally posted. First off, ooze are weak as hell, it doesn't take much to kill them. Second, mass aoe on a tightly packed group like ooze will add up quick. Basically, you could have easily dropped asuran scan for Death's charge. Question though, is WotA really needed? I mean, you already have 2 1/2 second activation attacks, i would think that a BU would be more than enough of a ias. Life   Guardian  01:32, April 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Scratch that. There's nothing better to take. Life   Guardian  01:33, April 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * I like A-scan for it's big single-target damage boost. Also a minor thing; DC has an aftercast.--<font color="Green">Digital Mending.jpg<font color="SteelBlue">Fear  01:45, April 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * 13 minutes for a pug is great. Grats. I'd do a run with you actually because I need a few dungeons HM but cba to H/H them :p So if youre doing dungeons pm me. IGN Super Igor.--Myotheraccount 06:34, April 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * 13 minutes for a pug is great. Grats. I'd do a run with you actually because I need a few dungeons HM but cba to H/H them :p So if youre doing dungeons pm me. IGN Super Igor.--Myotheraccount 06:34, April 15, 2010 (UTC)

This is what is wrong with PvX
It is as though a select few are taking Excluded's build as a personal attack. We know that "balling" and AoE spiking works.
 * This build is merely an alternative that has been tested in nearly ever area of the game.

The main criticisms I am seeing are that the build doesn't ball up foes and use AoE (splinter) to kill fast.
 * This is a ridiculous point because the build was explicitly intended to not rely on these strategies.
 * In other words, those making this argument against this build are using a Straw man:


 * Excluded's claim: I have a build that buffs melee to the extent that they don't have to rely on balling.
 * Opponents' claim: So balling is bad? I can do X area in X time and I can kill X amount of foes in X time, so balling is obviously good.  Your build sucks.

While Excluded has expressed distaste of using balling strategies, he has not said that it doesn't work. Balling is a very effective strategy in PvE, but again, this build is an alternative.

So what is wrong with PvX? A build that works very effectively in nearly all areas (personally, I'd say only Mallyx poses a huge problem) is being trashed because it doesn't used the ball and AoE strategy. The same build that was well received on Guru (by experienced and new players alike). The same build that allows new/intermediate players to get through difficult areas for the first time and allows experienced players to put up very respectable times in elite areas.

It's a shame that this build will stay in the trial phase at this rate. If anyone here really intends to provide useful criticism and changes to the build, you must make an effort towards objective analysis.--Arrogant Bastard 02:34, April 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Listen here you arrogant bastard. chill out. this is only pvx, another problem is people rage on this site over stupid things. people will either like it or loathe it. cant change that with words of huff and puff, can only turn the other cheak and pray both sides have an open mind.  Akio _Ka  t  suragi   [[File:Akio_Katsuragi_Sig.jpg]] 02:43, April 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry if you think that is e-rage, but it was a calm analysis of all the bashing going on.--Arrogant Bastard 02:52, April 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Mine was an "in general" comment. tis fine.  Akio _Ka  t  suragi   [[File:Akio_Katsuragi_Sig.jpg]] 02:55, April 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Problem is biased closed-minded admin/friends. Minion Splinter Weapon.jpg Excluded 02:59, April 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * You're just as closed mined as the rest of us. You take offense whenever someone tells you that random cspacing isn't efficient. Life   Guardian  03:13, April 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * As life said, his side on the topic of the build is Effeciency, not that the build just sucks at everything. Yes cars can get kick ass gas mileage nowadays and drive far, but we're only getting ~25% effeciency in the energy available in gas. Most is wasted as heat. Its all about effeciency. Aoe is more effecient than this. :/  Akio _Ka  t  suragi   [[File:Akio_Katsuragi_Sig.jpg]] 03:19, April 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Akio kinda got it and kinda missed it. We're not saying to get some massively buffed up SF tank to go put things in a perfect ball. We're just wondering why you choose to not abuse the way the terrible ai in GWs works. If enemies ball up, and you can easily fit splinter in, why not bring it? If you need something to take agro to prevent eles from losing too much energy, why not drop PB on one char and stack PS+SB? If you death's charge into a random group and they ball up themselves, or by death's charging they will stay balled, thus making them easier and faster to kill, why in the world wouldn't you do that? Life   Guardian  03:23, April 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * By the same logic, balling massive amounts of foes with SF/OF/stance tanks and AoE spiking them, while also skipping content is usually the fastest way to beat any area. Speedclearing is just easier and faster, why in the world wouldn't you do that?--Arrogant Bastard 03:51, April 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * Because they don't always ball themselves. Splinter does not fit, because GDW is purely better when energy permits. Death Blossom deals more DPS than Splinter because it's being activated every 3-4 seconds, and GDW doesn't require a third profession or attribute. Compression to the max. It's a general build, and therefore must fit all instances. Things alot of the time in PvE don't warrant time for balling, so you gank them instead.  Minion Splinter Weapon.jpg Excluded 03:44, April 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * The emphasis should be on bar compression. GDW can fit on the ER's and be maintained on all the melees while still providing respectable damage and KD.--Arrogant Bastard 04:03, April 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's a nice build. Very easy to use (lolc-space), very flexible that means easy to pug, doesn't rely on hard to get PvE skills and even has a spot for leecher (spirit spammer). I think it's great for ZQ and non-speedclear guilds. --Myotheraccount 06:50, April 15, 2010 (UTC)

GDW deals more damage than Splinter Weapon with a decent attack rate. Splinter Weapon at 10 should average 93.333...3 damage per foe on three foes (assuming a scythe), because the first three attacks should trigger Splinter Weapon on each target twice (2 X 35 = 70), and the fourth should deal 2 targets X 35 damage / 3 targets = 23.333...3. Another way of calculating it is 35 dmg X 4 uses X 2 other foes hit / 3 targets = 93.333...3. 93.333...3 damage / 6 seconds= 15.555 DPS per foe against 3 foes. For GDW with 17 damage to deal as much, you need an average attack period of 1.092857182 seconds; a Scythe with an IAS yields an attack period of 1.1666...6 seconds, and with Eremite's+Mystic, that's 0.9 seconds. Against 4 foes, Splinter Weapon deals a maximum of 420 damage, divided among foes (so 70 damage per second, divided among foes). Since a scythe can only hit 3 foes, that's 51 damage per swing from GDW (with 17 damage) or 56.666...6 damage per second, divided among foes. Against two targets, that's 70 damage per foe, 11.666...6 damage per foe per second. GDW with 17 damage against two foes is 37.777...7 damage per foe per second. So, GDW is best against 1-3 foes, and Splinter is better against 4, but the potential damage also peaks at 4 (because of the limit). If Asuran Scan is in the equation, with 17 damage from GDW and +63% from AS, GDW deals 68.5666...6 damage per second, a 1.4333...3 damage difference. If your ranks are higher and you're running Asuran Scan, GDW will always be more effective than Splinter Weapon. An Essence of Celerity will increase the DPS from Splinter Weapon by 20%, though.

For the Scythe attack period, Eremite's Attack and Mystic Sweep can be used every 4.5 seconds (3/4 X 0.67 + 4), and your average attack period is otherwise 1.1666...6 seconds. (4.5 - 0.5 - 0.5)/ 1.1666...6 = 3 regular activation attacks, so 4.5 seconds for 5 attacks, an attack period of 0.9 seconds. tl;dr: the only time Splinter Weapon is worth running over GDW (with Asuran Scan) is with Barrage, Volley or IA, because of the bow's slower attack rate, and the fact that I've never seen Asuran Scan on one of their bars. ــѕт.  мıкε  22:08, April 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Whirlwind+Crude swing, and the rit has 15(16 with cons, 17 with less bad atts) channeling, not 10. Life   Guardian  00:30, April 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Shit will die faster with Scythes, tbh. GDW is also plenty of KD, albeit not perma like Earth Shaker. However, Splinter Weapon at 17 could deal up to 1008 damage divided among 4 foes; 201.6 DPS divided among 4 foes with an Essence of Celerity, and 50.4 DPS on average. Even against 3 foes, Splinter Weapon would double the DPS from GDW (44.8 DPS and 20-25 DPS, respectively). However, one copy of GDW could be maintained on 4 allies, thus quadrupling its damage potential (80-100 DPS), if they all used Scythes and had 33% IASs. Tbh, I'd go with one copy of each; Splinter for anything with a slower attack rate (Hammer, Barrage or Spear, hell even wanders) and GDW for the others. With 4 physicals, that would be pretty perfect. ــѕт.  мıкε  01:42, April 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * That's what i suggested 30kb ago. Bring an erf shakur and a copy of splinter, drop GDW off of one of the eles. Brings mass aoe and agro control with the huge dommage of the sins. Life   Guardian  01:44, April 16, 2010 (UTC)

Vetting
I recommend it. There comes a point where discussing a build is no longer the ideal way to decide proficiency and this page has long since passed this point. I know that most of Minion's buddies are used to GWGuru, where you have to bandwagon threads and vehemently defend builds, but that's not how PvX is intended to work.

Push it into testing and see what happens; however, I will warn you that I will remove any votes that I think are simply "My group says 5-5-X" or "My group says 1-1-X". I really couldn't care less about this build or the ridiculous politicking surrounding it, so hopefully I'll be more objective than others. <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate  <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">03:23, 15 April 2010 <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate  <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">15:13, 15 April 2010
 * Oh, and please remember that votes should reflect the build's merits, not your experience with the build. Explain why the build is good. Simply saying that "it steamrolls PvE" isn't valid. I know that some of our builds have poor votes, but several months ago the admins decided to actually enforce the vetting policy yet not retroactively.
 * Also, remember "Note however that the re-submission of the same vote without any further explanation is violating 1RV."

If You Want This in Great
make one of the Ele Players optional, and suggest Hero builds for the physicals (even links will do, tbh). Two Ele Players, unless they tell each other which allies they're going to heal beforehand, are going to waste a lot of Infuse Healths. And, if not, one Infuser is usually enough to keep the team alive, but you could take some party healing (an SoR Motigon with Volley! XD) for good measure. Also, put Glyph of Swiftness on the E/Mo's bar, because not everyone is going to want to use Essences of Celerity. This is more-or-less what I'm suggesting (of course, the physicals are flexible). Generally, the other Player should be a physical, and Ebon Battle Standard of Honor, "Save Yourselves!" and Asuran Scan are very nice, but not strictly necessary, so any physical can work.

If I'm going to vote on this, it would be as a 2 Man+6 Heroes Team build, and it isn't complete as it is now. I have the same problem with Archive:Team - Great Dwarf Scythes, because I never really PvEd with other players, but at least that build hasn't restricted any of the primaries. ــѕт. мıкε  23:00, April 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * "Two Ele Players, unless they tell each other which allies they're going to heal beforehand, are going to waste a lot of Infuse Healths." This does not make any sense. Please explain. Cuilan 00:30, April 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Kinda hard to waste an infuse when you have unlimited energy and health tbh, and hitting infuse will actually give you more energy. Life   Guardian  00:31, April 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * They'll both often heal the same ally, unless they "reserve" which party members they should each heal.
 * Yes, but having infinite Energy and Health, and the ability to use Infuse every few seconds means you only need one Infuser, tbh. One can already maintain GDW on all of the physicals (of course, two means reduced setup, but if you take one copy of Splinter Weapon, it shouldn't really be a problem). One Infuser is amazing, but taking a second yields little benefit, and restricts even more players to certain builds.
 * This build is obviously amazing when you get some decent players, but PvX has gone through these kinds of PvE general Player Team builds and ended up deleting or archiving almost all of them, probably because the setup is so obvious. I'd rather see it primarily as a 2 Man Hero Team build, with recommendations for additional Players, because it makes it less general, but also more flexible if you only restrict one Player to an Ele primary. Tbh, I'm surprised no one has made a 3 Hero setup just for the E/Mo (like Racway, even though it sucks, for the Imbagon). ــѕт.  мıкε  01:56, April 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * How is "obvious" a reason to rate a build poorly? You have to consider not everyone in Guild Wars is a loner and PvX shouldn't just cater strictly to them. Cuilan 03:33, April 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * I wasn't going to rate at all; the build wasn't finished, imo. ــѕт.  мıкε  11:19, April 16, 2010 (UTC)

This is what is wrong with PvX (part 2)
I just came up with a brilliant idea. How about some of you actually play Guild Wars for a change, because it really sounds like some of you don't play at all.

This is what is wrong with PvX, the current version of the build is shitty because of heavy editing. This build works best with all human players and 1-2 heroes at most (and only as orders or cleaners). Mandating that every team build for general play have hero options for most of the roles is retarded. If you want to use a ton of heroes, there are other builds. PvX should have options for both all player teams and hero teams instead of requiring this crap. There shouldn't be such guidelines in making builds because some people actually enjoy playing online games with other people.

Balling vs not balling
 * Both work in every area in the game. Obviously if you ball up the entire area and spike it down, it's gonna be faster.  This build was intended to use a different strategy.  I think the idea was something about having fun and not speedclearing all the time, but I'm not sure.


 * Some of you seem to like using this argument "But balling is faster and more efficient!". Well then stop doing anything in GW but speedclears because it's "more efficient" than other means of play.


 * I suggest some of you actually try this strategy before bashing it. I'm sure most of you will actually enjoy this type of play and realize that you can get competitive completion times even when not balling.

'''WTF Where is AoE? Useless build with that little AoE'''
 * With the way the build works, daggersins benefit the most (in most situations) and provide high single target damage and respectable AoE with DB. Moreover, either some of you are dense or Excluded didn't properly convey this point (or it was edited out): the build is very flexible outside of the ER eles.  You can bring 100b, scythe, ES, and MoP; and in fact we use these often.  The original build even stated that the daggersins were an example of the type of melee builds needed.  Daggersins + orders is probably the "default" team Excluded choose because it is far less prone to errors (try MoP calling in PuGs and see how well that works out).


 * And just to shine some light on the double standard going on here. One of the most used team builds, one that is highly rated on PvX, has very low AoE damage and relies on single target damage.  Discordway.  Gotta love the double standard.

In conclusion, I invite any of you to actually try this build. Get in contact with Excluded, his guild/alliance, or me and we can setup a run.--Arrogant Bastard 04:25, April 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) PvX rarely stores general builds because they just are not of much use. People don't want to pick and choose their specific team. They want something laid out that they can copypaste.
 * 2) Organized pugs don't happen. 90% of teams forming on zquest days are random spam "glf tank, nuker, monk" or "lf duo discord". Beyond zquests, pugs rarely form, if at all, because heroes can do the missions faster and easier than most pugs can.
 * 3) Balling. I've explained this, you chose to ignore it. We're not saying that you should use a dedicated tank to pull everything on the map into one ball. We're saying to use common fucking sense. If shit is together, and you use any aoe at all, said shit will die faster. I don't get why this concept is so difficult to understand. There's not even any need to wait for the balling to happen. If you death's charge in, or random leeroy while your team waits for 3 seconds, melee will ball on you, and in most cases the casters will come together as well. Saying that this team was made specifically so you didn't have to bring everything into a ball is stupid, and reminiscent of ursan days where cspace ruled the game. Cspace has never been a good option, and never will. I could say that damage is overrated and going through pve with just heals and wanding is my idea of having fun, and anyone not conforming to my new strategies is bad because theyre too attached to their damage mentality. It sounds stupid, because it is, and it is suspiciously similar to your argument.
 * 4) Discord. Did you forget the ~15 minions with death nova at all times, 2+copies of putrid bile, and the other 4 partymembers that are not you+your three heroes? That the 2 ele henchies have fairly adequate aoe, and are readily available to any party? Comparing the two is like saying your 2 ER's, cleaner, and sos don't have enough damage. You think? Maybe because it's only half a team?
 * 5) We are all aware that physway works. However, your somewhat gimped version that you are trying to push through is not the version that should be kept on this site. Tbh, now that the originial page is back up, it does look slightly better, but there are still questionable skills on most bars. Well of blood is unnecessary, and since you already have a 10 spec in smiting you might as well bring smite hex>remove hex, despite the 4 sec longer recharge. You don't need 4x SY. You barely need 1 considering everyone is massively protted. Abuse those 3 open pve slots in some other way. If you bring splinter, that also removes the need for GDW on the second ele, opening a spot for yet another pve skill. 10 heal on the second ER just for vig spirit seems like a waste to me, when you could pump prot up to 12(13 with cons) to make energy much less of a problem. The 2 open slots on the ele can now fit something like breath of the great dwarf for a partyheal and aegis to relieve damage packets as well as a cover enchant for the more important ones. The rit also has a communing spec, which is unneeded. You'd be better off dropping prot bond off of one of the sins, enchanting him with PS+SB and letting him leeroy. PB him again once the initial agro is over. If shit is dying as fast as it should be, the 1 extra second of KD from earthbind shouldn't even matter. That leaves room for vampirism, which does almost the same damage as pain, but with no spec.


 * Most of these points have already been made on this page, but i felt that beating them in again might actually do some good this time. I also apologize for the wall of text. feel free to break it up better if you cba reading it. Life   Guardian  05:27, April 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm just gonna address one issue because you won't let yourself be convinced on the other topics. You say I'm pushing this "gimped physway", but until a few minutes ago, the build was edited until it looked like shit.  I even mentioned that the current builds at the time have been stripped of what physway was supposed to be.--Arrogant Bastard 05:56, April 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm talking about the page as it is at this very moment, and it's gimped because of the huge wall of skills i just said weren't optimal. Life   Guardian  05:58, April 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * I didn't make all the builds, the Rit one is a bit mess up.
 * 1)Why SY and why multiple copies?: Extra line of defense in case of strips.  You don't need 4, but at least 2 is good to make sure everyone is covered.  Moreover, sometimes blind/kd/hex/etc. can keep someone from using SY, so having other people also using it ensures that it is frequently up in case shit happens.
 * 2)Why Earthbind?: It is good vs Bosses (especially Dhuum) and can keep dangerous mobs knock-locked (think 4H). Is it required in every area? No, but it is very useful in some areas (I'd say it is required in UW unless you are using an experienced team).
 * 3)Why spec into healing on the ER (e.g. why vig spirit)?: A decent ER ele can easily maintain energy without speccing 12 into protection (energy problems are usually caused by interrupts/kd, strips, over aggro). One ER does spec all into protection for LA though.  Speccing into healing gives the options of vig spirit and healing breeze which are useful for: moderate redbarring, enchant cover, and more energy.  You could have both ER eles using 12 protection, but having the secondary using vig spirit or healing breeze provides more stability (aka "win more" situation).--Arrogant Bastard 06:33, April 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't quite agree on the ER bit, but i guess everything else makes enough sense for me to not want to push it further. Basically the problem i'm seeing is that the reasoning behind certain skills/tactics is swapping back and forth between an experienced group and a pug. Imo, split the build into 2 on the same page, and have 1 be the most generic, foolproof, easy to pug build you can possibly come up with, and then have the second build be the most optimal build you can come up with, focusing on speed and efficiency rather than overkill on safety. I think that should solve all of the problems we've run into thus far and will get this into great. Life   Guardian  07:20, April 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the point is to make multiple lines of defense to prevent failure since this build works best in the areas w/o res shrines. If its a very experienced group you can drop a lot of stuff depending on area (ex: you can drop things like SY in some easier areas but you still want the overlapping defense in a place like Foundry where there is a ton of stripping).  We could make a more specific build for "pros" but we usually use this team for "casual" play.  PvE tends to become too serious, and what this build does is let us take newbs, talk shit, etc. during the run and still steamroll.  Playing this way will yield consistent 1.5 hr UW runs and with a good team I've gotten all quest done at 50 mins (don't remember how long it took to finish dhuum).


 * Eitherway, I think it's redundant to make a separate build for experienced players. If you are indeed "pro" you should be able to figure out what to change.  Not to mention the fact that the build is a general outline, and although you can take it as it is and win PvE, customizing it to the area will make it far more efficient.--Arrogant Bastard 08:24, April 16, 2010 (UTC)

There are areas listed for the use of this build. Users should vote by comparing this with builds that are also used for HM dungeons, Underworld, FoW, and Tombs of the Primeval Kings, based on success of the runs, so different play styles don't matter (the point is to get shit done as quickly as possible, tbh). The PvE general tag is gone, now, so Heroes should only be taken when there's no loss in taking them (e.g. Cleaner Gwen and the OotV Necro). Also, another idea, put Heal Party+Mindbender on one of the E/Mo's bars, so you can spam the shit out of it (for 20-24 Health per second for your whole party) and use it after Infuse Health to bring your Health back to full right away. The lack of EBSoH and Aegis make me kind of sad. Also, OoP will net twice as much damage as OotV (because of Asuran Scan and "BUH!"), albeit at the loss of the health gain. However, this frees up your Elite (if you took Cultist's Fervor, you might be able to drop the Me/Mo completely). ــѕт. мıкε  00:07, April 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * The ER will most likely be using personals to hit the breakpoint on ER which makes mindbender somewhat redundant and HP likewise doesn't have too much to offer (though I would be more accepting of that). The only time we have ever run EBSoH is when a ranger is in the group to squeeze some more damage out of them--on sins it makes virtually no difference.  Blocking is likewise not very important because the overwhelming majority of the damage comes from unblockable sources i.e. hundred blades/hexes/AoE.  There is a variant exactly as you mention that uses CF+OoP I don't know why it's not tagged to the main page.  Because we don't run invincis in most high end areas a full time cleaner is an absolute must (see: HM Gloom).  Very easy for the torment demons to get a hex stack 8 deep plus conditions if you are relying on 1-2 skills crammed on the necro bar.  71.56.32.112 13:57, April 17, 2010 (UTC)

Wouldn't OoP and DF be enough for cover Enchantments? If one gets removed, you'll still have the other, so I don't see the point of Dwayna's Sorrow, tbh. ــѕт. мıкε  16:12, April 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately not. It's for areas with *mass* enchant strips in mobs. Chillblains x3 or so will get through to PB and scatter brains. Less likely with Aegis, Dsorrow and ERs tossing more enchants accross the team. Dsorrow is simply for cover, as it's AoE target range is nice. Apart from that it's useless. If you want we can make it optional.  Minion Splinter Weapon.jpg Excluded 16:18, April 17, 2010 (UTC)

why
Does it feel like this has gone through 600 testing scenarios? idr other builds on this site getting special treatment from people complaining over everything. jw.  Akio _Ka  t  suragi    15:13, April 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * OMG why has this gone on for so long....take the best of both worlds and be done with this.  Then you can add whatever crap PUGS you want running whatever shit build they have.---<font color="#0000ff"> X <font color="#696969"> TREME 16:19, April 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Because it was vetted bad after being heavily edited by admin. It just needs to be fixed up a little in current form. I agree some skills need explaining as to why they're there and change some Variants.  Minion Splinter Weapon.jpg Excluded 17:00, April 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * it wasn't vetted bad because an admin edited it-- Relyk  talk  22:47, April 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hate moar. This build is actually pretty good if you consider what purpose it was made for. :3 --Myotheraccount lolspam lollololol iz bored 14:56, April 17, 2010 (UTC)

Pretty sure a dwarvenstyle build could be put for the melee roles
Dwarven builds deliver AOE interruption, strong builtin defense and is a "chaotic" type of build, which woulkd make it work great with this kind of teambuild. I would highly recommend adding it as yet another option to the main page --Lullysing 16:22, April 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * You can't interrupt a monster that's knocked down, tbh. It would be useful against any monsters that can't be KDed, though. ــѕт.  мıкε  16:27, April 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * We gave the Dwarven stance bars a go as soon as it was changed; but the effects were minimal and DPS lowered considerably. More inclined to WE scythe for a warrior, or Hundred Blades.  Minion Splinter Weapon.jpg Excluded 18:05, April 17, 2010 (UTC)

The bandwaggoning needs to stop.
Look, guys, I really don't want to have to step in on this type of issue. As a wiki, we leave as much of the responsibility to the community as possible, but if you guys can't stop dragging this out then some of us will have to step in (and I'd much rather not do that).

I understand why there are so many problems with this build, but this isn't a PvX vs. Guru problem. This problem is a Minion + his friends versus the world problem. Try to see other's point of view, focus on the merits of the build, and stop bullshitting.

So either work out a consensus, put this through vetting, or we'll step in and finish it (and I can almost guarantee you wont want that). <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate  <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">16:30, 17 April 2010

Rest assured that we have been testing some skills suggested. Roarer 21:16, April 17, 2010 (UTC)

. This place may seem harsh, but it's no harsher than half the shit I've seen you take on Guru.
 * I'm with KJ on this. If all the editing is finished, put it through testing and let it stand on it's own merits. I haven't looked at it myself, but I couldn't miss that it was, by double, the most talked about build here all of a sudden. And as much as they may hate having to babysit the vote, I would also recommend that the admins watch the voting on this one. Seems to be quite polarizing. You know, keep out the "it simply works" or "it can't work" votes that may pop up. Abased Fear 00:35, April 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * I guess you have a lot of vote removing to do in the Mo/E GoLE Healer's Boon Healer rating page. Cuilan 03:36, April 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * If all the PvX builds were put through the amount of review this build has gone through, then PvX build's wouldn't be considered sub-par by seasoned players. Hell, the quality of PuG's may increase if they had access to better builds.
 * Sign comments, and go ahead and shit on all the other bad builds. God knows i need more entertainment. Life   Guardian  03:58, April 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * From what I can tell, the only difference between "Testing" and "Trial" is that in Testing you can Well it after raging during Trial time. Just put it through; I'm starting to lose interest. Minion Splinter Weapon.jpg Excluded 11:47, April 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Let me just point out, that calling up the boys and throwing a pity party is asinine. There has been a lot of discussion on this build, and for good reason.
 * @Culian, unfortunately, builds like the GoLE HB Healer were before my time. A short while after I became an admin, we (the admin staff here) realized that the vetting policy was not being enforced and that was a grave mistake on our parts. We decided to become more strict on votes; however, we decided against doing it retroactively, considering that it would force over half of our builds to need to be re-vetted and that's what WELL tagging/archiving is for.
 * @Minion, if you believe this build works and want to continue to push for it here, then grow a pair and do it. Don't quit halfway through because you're "starting to lose interest"
 * It's time to let vetting decide what happens to this build, but if it goes South and you'd like to save it, we can move it to your namespace. You have no idea how many builds have been posted, voted down, and then reposted into "Great". <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">13:27, 18 April 2010

folo
what the all-mighty KJ says. ive learned the hard way :D--Bluetapeboy 00:41, April 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't remember ever banning you.....actually, I thought we chatted on MSN or something. I could be wrong. My memory is shit. <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">13:28, 18 April 2010

Testers ?
I'dd like to help for the "testing" phase. i play mostly warrior, but if i get a little advance notice, any build can be run on him.--Lullysing 15:36, April 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sure, just drop your ign and I'll get to you later. Probably for tonight's ZB.  Minion Splinter Weapon.jpg Excluded 16:04, April 18, 2010 (UTC)

Removal of Mini skill bars in physical section
Just a query as to why they are being removed Athrun? It does make the page look more complete after all. I know you put "I'm sure people can click links" but I'm sure some people wouldn't mind the mini skillbars either. Roarer 22:15, April 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * That's probably something you should ask her on her talk page. <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">22:15, 19 April 2010

Amusing that it says "next person to revert this will be banned with no further warning (getting bored of this now)". This would imply I was initially warned.

The mini-skill bars are there because apparently people won't have it if I post a few suggested melee builds. Some of the builds that are linked are also not optimal (e.g. Chilling Victory on Derv?). A good middle ground would be to have both the links and min-skill bars to help guide people and provide a visual to what the team should look like.--Arrogant Bastard 23:05, April 19, 2010 (UTC)

This allowed?
&rarr; moved to Build talk:Team - Discordway

Build Summary:

 * Build:E/Mo Ether Renewal Bonder
 * Build:E/Mo Ether Renewal Prot Hero
 * Build:Rt/any Spirit Spammer
 * On one page. No reason to have these builds all together on the same page saying "yea slap in some melee pugs and go play pve."--<font color ="Blue">Ikimono <font color ="Brown">...And my Axe! [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png]] 01:34, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well you aren't going to make a team with discord, infuser, Sos ...are you? I see nothing wrong with making a team that is very PUG friendly.  By all means make a synergy team build but this isn't what this is all about.  It is about makeing crappy players enjoy the places they could never get to....and hopefully learn something.---<font color="#0000ff"> X <font color="#696969"> TREME 01:40, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * And if you do get an experienced team, you can put up completion times that are often only beaten by SC teams.--Arrogant Bastard 01:43, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * xtreme should be less optimistic and discordway/sabway/spiritway exist already. If SC teams are superior to this, it should be welled in that case.-- Relyk  talk  01:48, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Those are similar builds, but not the same. If this team build gets welled, then well the SC team builds. Slap in some really compact powerful individual builds on PUGs and go play PvE. Cuilan 02:45, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * wut-- Relyk  talk  03:20, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Kyler reread...I never said Discord way/Stabway/Spiritway....I said skills. The point...that you missed....is you can take ANY build you want. It wasn't just throw together a bunch of builds on PVX and it will work.  All thouse "ways" require hero's---<font color="#0000ff"> X <font color="#696969"> TREME 10:01, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * He's saying this build could be made by looking at Category:All working general builds and picking 8 (with 4 frontline, 2 mid, 2 back). - <font color="SteelBlue">Athrun <font color="Black">Feya [[Image:Lau_bfly.gif]] - 12:46, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * ^ bingo. It's not a specific PvE spiking build like Discordway that requires a caller build. It's 4 "random" backline bars with 4 completely random frontline bars.--<font color ="Blue">Ikimono <font color ="Brown">...And my Axe! [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png]] 14:31, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * There were more specific builds and guidelines, but this build gets special attention and isn't allowed to post half its builds.--Arrogant Bastard 15:04, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * There were more specific builds and guidelines, but this build gets special attention and isn't allowed to post half its builds.--Arrogant Bastard 15:04, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

Never got an answer
Am I allowed to manipulate the votes (i.e. get the ones I don't like deleted)?

If yes, prepare to be disappointed as this build gets rated "great" (since I know a select few of you have a personal issue with builds that don't use splinter weapon or discord).

If no, then it looks like a lot of builds on PvX need to be vote wiped.

Thanks again.--Arrogant Bastard 14:42, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm having a real difficult problem at the moment. Are you a bad troll? OR are you autistic or just a Ignorant Bastard? <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 14:44, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * If trolling = telling the truth, then so be it.--Arrogant Bastard 14:46, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, ignorant autist it is. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 14:47, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * By the way, personal attacks make you look smart. It just screams "I couldn't think of an actual counter argument".--Arrogant Bastard 14:48, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * No, it just isn't worth trying to tell some new person on PvX why they are wrong or how they are wrong. Literally every single time someone tries to tell them, the new persons mind will do some ego trick into reversing the argument onto the person who is trying to teach them what is wrong. You aren't worth anyone's time. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 14:51, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * You can't tell me why I'm wrong because I'm not. You just refuse to let your Sacred Cows be scrutinized.  Continue with personal attacks, it makes you look smart.--Arrogant Bastard 14:53, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * My point exactly. :\ <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 14:54, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Funny how you have the time to keep replying and attempting to insult me, but when it comes to making an actual argument you can't be bothered.--Arrogant Bastard 14:56, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * First person to not reply get's to keep their dignity. Necromas 14:59, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * No. -- Chaos?  -- 19:10, April 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * You are both wrong and live with it.---<font color="#0000ff"> X <font color="#696969"> TREME 16:02, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * They're actually both right. PvX'rs bandwagon votes, and explaining the way the site works is useless in 99/100 cases. -- Chaos?  -- 19:10, April 20, 2010 (UTC)