Archive talk:A/W BMT Shadow Prison Assassin/Archive 1

Discussion
Current HB metagame, thought it should be submitted. Rusty The Mesmer 11:39, 30 September 2007 (CEST)

Really? I've only seen this once, and that's when I was using it. Never on obs or anything. Tycn 11:43, 30 September 2007 (CEST)
 * I've seen it on obs many times. Saw it on both sides when Ekelon got himself pwnt by the no #20.Rusty The Mesmer 11:45, 30 September 2007 (CEST)

Flurry IMO. Tiger stance doesn't last the whole combo methinks. Swiftslash \\  (contributions  * warrior guide ) 22:33, 30 September 2007 (CEST)
 * IMO, After they're knocked down you don't need an IAS.Rusty The Mesmer 23:47, 30 September 2007 (CEST)

For a start It's def not metagame, jsut because number 20 and number 1 have ran it a few times hardly warrants meta, but yes it works, and it's not particularly used for ganking purposes, just a variant on the standard Sp with cripple instead of poison, the other SP is meta and is better... --Drowning Pigeon 08:51, 1 October 2007 (CEST)

You want the combo to be as fast as poss. If TS runs out before the combo is finished it will be slowed down. Flurry barely lowers you DPS anyways. Swiftslash \\  (contributions  * warrior guide ) 15:42, 1 October 2007 (CEST)


 * with IAS the spike would be 3.325 seconds, tiger lasting 4 ftw.--[[Image:User Hamstorm Hamstring.jpg|19px]] HAMSTORM  [[Image:User Hamstorm Firestorm.jpg|19px]]


 * Even with 33% IAS, the combo's still 4,45s –Ichigo724[[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 03:08, 8 October 2007 (CEST)

Flurry is better since you have a snare that is not a hex (meaning if you have any hexes on your team, you can begin your chain without SP as snare). Swiftslash \\  (contributions  * warrior guide ) 15:33, 8 October 2007 (CEST)

This is absolutely HB meta. I run it, everyone I know who is any good does as well. If you think its bad, you fail tbh. Flurry is not better. Readem (talk *pvxcontribs ) 22:50, 9 October 2007 (CEST)

Good build, but VERY easily countered. It needs a hex to cripple AND relies on the cripple to be not removed by the time you use trampling ox. But Still, if you get a good spike through its pretty much over for your opponent. - Jak123X 04:04, 10 October 2007 (CEST)

And also, maybe you should add an HA tag to this though then you can't take expose. - Jak123X 04:04, 10 October 2007 (CEST)

Ok, So to be honest this build is not Meta yet but as we speak loads of people are logging into Wiki builder to use it however.A little History about this build. During the Sneak Peak preview for GW:EoN a guild called [Time] used this build during Alliance Battles. Known by few I'm going to bet someone else also found out that it's a great combo which is completely normal. Posting this, however is not every cool. Do you understand how hard it is to run something unique that actually works? But now the [Time] build is posted on Wiki.So now everytime i use MY build the one i came up with during sneak peak will be claimed a WIKI BUILD instead of "Nice build Kagome" (which i have heard before ^_^) Thanks mesmer Dusty thats awsm now everyone can run the same build and it requires them to not have any skills except the 8 required for the bar and i can now not Ab with this anymore because it's now claimed a Cookie cutter build. 16dagger mastery btw is the best bet for this build not the 13 critical :| why would you need 13 critical mastery? Damage>energy gain on hit. Besides if you are using tiger stance anyways there will be cool down to let the energy recharge and you dont need alot of energy anyways for this spike...... The build was originally used with Flurry in Ab. it was better for me to use flurry with 16 dag mastery to regain energy for another quick spike usually better only because you can repeat another spike soon after using expose instead of Sp even after you possibly have failed spiking someone because of a lucky prot. or cripple removal. Also all of the spiking skills require Dagger mastery so why would you not want more damage?(besides twisting which only maxs at 21 damage compared to 17 when i run 11+1 crit. So anyways i just figured if people will be using this build they should know where it came from. She is Kagome from [Time] has created this build so if you will use it from wiki plz call it Kagomeway. or some would rather it called [Time]way. All my guildies and other Ab sin buddies(Porthos, Sweaty Cheese, Aura of Shadows) will second me being the first to use it. So My in game is She is Kagome if you havn't seen me in AB yet and you are thinking of it beware of the [Time] members. [Time] was here. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kagome (contribs) 12:20, 11 October 2007.


 * You can't claim to have invented this build. For all you know, someone else might have thought of it 10 seconds before you did. Also, less wall of text please.-(Japanties 02:40, 30 November 2007 (CET))
 * This is not an AB build, [Time] didn't invent it, noone cares about AB, this is meta, etc. - Rawrawr  18:22, 11 October 2007 (CEST)


 * This is pretty much an intuitive combo...not like it takes a genius to figure it out. Besides, [Time] sucks anyways. 76.102.172.202 08:43, 24 November 2007 (CET)

lol wow that was nice. lol and also who are you to say who invented or didn't invent things... I didn't invent it i said i created it also im sure many other people have also created it without having to steal it from wiki.But I forgot you are god /bow .Correction though. YOU don't care about AB which is fine. But there are some who find competitive play fun. Also Luxon Savior title is difficult to get so if you want to max your titles Ab or JA will have to be your choice. :| sorry i can't be more like you Rawr. Also this is a great Ab build since the original SP build made it;s way to Ab why would you think this build couldn't?
 * I'd rather uninstall than attempt to farm r1 of a faction title. I'm just saying credit shouldn't go to you, its a pretty obv combo probably invented by like 2k people in the same day. - Rawrawr  20:26, 11 October 2007 (CEST)
 * Time for some third party clean up. Kagome person, you didn't invent the build, stop claiming you did. Alex, stop boasting about how you'd rather uninstall than farm r1 of the title, you have like 80k donated. [[Image:Ibreaktoilets_Signature.jpg|User:Ibreaktoilets]]Ibreaktoilets 20:28, 11 October 2007 (CEST)
 * I'm not even r1 -.- - Rawrawr  20:29, 11 October 2007 (CEST)
 * El oh el oh el oh el. PvX:NPA prevents me from saying anything further. --InternetLOL 20:33, 11 October 2007 (CEST)

then say ur retarded(not a personal attack)and say u thought it ment no pankcakes allowed<font color="DarkGreen">§Ω☼Vorrax☼Ω§ 20:35, 11 October 2007 (CEST) One i Didnt say i invented it just sorta upset that its now common knowledge and ill now be considered using a wiki build instead of a build i came up with. Im sure about 2k people made it the same day. but now its completely considered a wiki build :| sorta sucks thats all. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kagome (contribs) 14:03, 11 October 2007.

This build was first used by O Ren Eishi, with his dual rt Split build (Mo/E, Rt/N, Rt/A), that Ekelon later copied for Monthly. He is R13 Phoenix, and is better then all AB'ers combined. gfg <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 06:44, 15 October 2007 (CEST)

Builds in the Great Section should not have such pitiful articles...I'll fix that. --Hikari 00:38, 16 October 2007 (CEST)
 * I'm not a huge submitter, and I didn't expect it to be this popular either. <font color="brown" face="arial bold">Rusty <font color="black" face="arial bold">The <font color="red" face="arial bold">Mesmer 05:17, 22 October 2007 (CEST)

I submitted a build basically the same exact thing as this, same chain, but with restful breeze, with tiger stance in the variants. It was deleted due to being inferior to the SP sin. I dont understand how this didnt get deleted and mine did. All he did was a slap an HB tag on it and somehow it can get vetted.--<font color="darkorange" face="arial bold">Victory <font color="Brown" face="arial bold">is <font color="black" face="arial bold">yours 21:10, 17 October 2007 (CEST)


 * People read the main bar, not the variants section. —ǥrɩɳsɧ  ƿoɲ  21:55, 17 October 2007 (CEST)
 * Because I'm great, didn't read your article and submitted it as a HB build. But mainly because I'm great. <font color="brown" face="arial bold">Rusty <font color="black" face="arial bold">The <font color="red" face="arial bold">Mesmer 21:55, 23 October 2007 (CEST)

OMG I just came up with this build and was all like OMFG im a genius... then yea i found it here and im all like f** that good build ftw Himynameisbobbyjoe 00:31, 25 October 2007 (CEST)

Nerf
Nerfed, May need renovation. Bloodfire
 * Its not really that bad only 20 damage off of trampling Himynameisbobbyjoe 21:04, 14 November 2007 (CET)

Imo, add having 14 daggers & 12 crit strikes as a variant,this enables hgih dmg and the loss of energy and dmg form crits does not matter, as the build is not v. energy intensive. Notes should be made that at times Zealous daggers should be used, whereas other times Vampiric daggers are viable. --Drowning Pigeon 11:30, 16 November 2007 (CET)


 * Nah, 13 crit breakpoint helps more. Drop DA down to 3+1 if necessary. — <font color="Black">Tycn (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 12:42, 16 November 2007 (CET)

Crits give nice damage too. Swiftslash \\  (<font color="Black">contributions  * sandbox ) 16:35, 16 November 2007 (CET)

I'm not stupid I fully understand that crit strikes give more dmg, but from extensive testing I find that having dagger mastery at 14, and crit at 12 I can kill the monk first combo, whereas without, the build struggles to find sufficient damage to insta kill. (also Adzik runs the build with 14 daggers and 12 crit.) tbh, it all depends upon how you like to play, I prefer not too have a minro rune of DA for more energy, because my daggers have 15^50 not +5 energy. It's all personla preference really, and I find the suggested 14 daggers, and 12 crits best for me.--Drowning Pigeon 21:25, 16 November 2007 (CET)

RA?
IMHO, drop expose for res sig and this will work nicely in arenas to replace the standard SP sin--Goldenstar 22:09, 16 November 2007 (CET) even more so, with their being NO standard SP =P --Drowning Pigeon 18:22, 17 November 2007 (CET)
 * I agree, done it many times. This build is worse than the old SP in terms of RA, but still good.  Also, Ive seen people run this in HA, in HoH. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]]  Ressmonkey   (talk)  18:25, 17 November 2007 (CET)
 * I am sorry but this build just fails in RA. I thought it was just me that couldnt use this build but after I tested it on the 60 armour dolls in Great Temple i realised that there wasnt even enough damage to spike it down in a full combo. Infinite 16:26, 18 November 2007 (CET)
 * Are you using max dmg daggers? Moush 03:15, 5 December 2007 (CET)

Variants
I use Shroud of Silence sometimes and Siphon speed in HB. Great to kill enemy monks fast. - Use Siphon + Shroud on casters and just siphon when spiking other targets.- Jak123X 18:01, 18 November 2007 (CET)

no, it's not --Drowning Pigeon 18:01, 18 November 2007 (CET)

Calm down metaboy. To you the build is set in stone; and according to you a caster that can't cast and that is crippled w/ siphon speed on them won't die. Makes great sense.- Jak123X 19:45, 18 November 2007 (CET)

SP is better than SoS in numerous ways. 72.199.154.179 23:24, 18 November 2007 (CET)


 * Besides the "I can't cast" part --The Gates Assassin 01:15, 19 November 2007 (CET)
 * Besides the micro'ed preprot part. --<font color="Black">Edru viransu //<font color="Red">QQ about me /sysop 03:37, 21 November 2007 (CET)
 * Besides the...dam good point =D --The Gates Assassin 02:47, 25 November 2007 (CET)

lulz /agree --Drowning Pigeon 07:38, 22 November 2007 (CET)

How about w/d and trading tiger stance to whirling charge? you also get moving speed buff.
 * Which isn't necessary. It'd be too much a strain on energy. [[Image:Shogunshen_Sig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Black"> Shen (contribs) 15:52, 9 December 2007 (CET)

Thank You
Thanks to whoever updated the page and made it universal, I know it's the only current working SP build out there, and I feel pretty damn leet for submitting it. Can someone please insult me so I stop feeling like I'm great? <font color="brown" face="arial bold">Rusty <font color="black" face="arial bold">The <font color="red" face="arial bold">Mesmer 09:56, 21 November 2007 (CET)
 * You suck the big 111!!! –Ichigo724[[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 14:48, 21 November 2007 (CET)
 * You fail at scrubway. — <font color="Black">Tycn (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 07:55, 22 November 2007 (CET)
 * You hit 'b' and watched some high ranked Guild/Hber run this, submitted it then took the credit Himynameisbobbyjoe 14:37, 22 November 2007 (CET)
 * NO Wais he obv thought of it all by himself ;]--Drowning Pigeon 20:25, 22 November 2007 (CET)
 * Pretty sure the first thing Rusty said about this build was that it was meta. --<font color="Black">Edru viransu //<font color="Red">QQ about me /sysop 20:44, 22 November 2007 (CET)


 * Edra viransu wins at scrolling up and looking at the first comment made! ("Current HB metagame, thought it should be submitted"). <font color="#DA04FF">G OD L IES <font color="#DA04FF">T alk 20:59, 22 November 2007 (CET)
 * Now that this is in featured, I'll have to deal with it in AB. Hope you die.  With love, --Mafaraxas 20:55, 23 November 2007 (CET)
 * /agree (76.123.132.25 17:28, 24 November 2007 (CET))
 * OK now I feel like an observing scrubber again, thanks guys. But I did submit a great, featured build. Yay for me! <font color="brown" face="arial bold">Rusty <font color="black" face="arial bold">The <font color="red" face="arial bold">Mesmer 08:03, 25 November 2007 (CET)

Deadly Arts
need only be at 3. There's no 'black' attack later in the combo, not to mention you've got cripple from the start. You would also be able to deal slightly more damage with a dagger headpiece. <font color="Black"> Shen (contribs) 20:24, 23 November 2007 (CET)

Guys, we dont need all those points in DA cuz of criplle, remove some and put in crit strike. Side of tiger, take flail for a better overall pressure and no energy cost.(flail ftw, target is cripled and shadow prisoned). &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 205.205.243.126 (contribs) 15:26, 23 November 2007.


 * Flail for the uber lose; you need to attack them four times before you can even use it, and no cancel stance means if the crippled is stripped and SP lasts 3 seconds you're pretty fucked. Moving points to 12+1+1 dagger, 12+1 crit, 3 deadly only adds a few extra points damage and one or two seconds on the conditions, which really isn't worth it compared to a 3 second vs. 5 second SP. --Mafaraxas 21:02, 23 November 2007 (CET)
 * Either way you are going to knock them down before the 2 extra seconds means anything. Cripple for a snare is plenty. [[Image:Shogunshen_Sig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Black"> Shen (contribs) 21:14, 23 November 2007 (CET)

I've gone ahead and cleaned the build up w/a different intro and 3 deadly arts. <font color="Black"> Shen (contribs) 22:33, 23 November 2007 (CET)

What?
With dual functionality as a hex and shadow step, Shadow Prison provides an economical primer for this quintessential Assassin's powerful spike chain.

I'm not smart enough to get that last part...--The Gates Assassin 02:50, 25 November 2007 (CET)
 * Shadow Prison makes this build able to kill stuff. [[Image:Frenzy.jpg|50x19px]]<font color="Brown">Punjab 02:54, 25 November 2007 (CET)


 * It provides what you need, a Snare and a Hex for Black skills. [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] <font color=#6e8b3d>frvwfr2  (T/C/Sysop) 03:00, 25 November 2007 (CET)


 * PvX Wiki is all about the overused builds with over-grammarified articles. Get used to it. --76.121.42.143 07:19, 25 November 2007 (CET)
 * So basically having quality builds with quality write-up is bad? [[Image:Shogunshen_Sig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Black"> Shen (contribs) 18:53, 25 November 2007 (CET)


 * No, but there is no need for such language elitism faggotry. Man wiki user's main language is not Enlgish, so text in builds should be kept simple w/o making them overly stupid. Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] (<font color="Black">contributions  * sandbox ) 19:46, 25 November 2007 (CET)
 * (EC)Sorry you feel that way. Change it if it bothers you. I wasn't aware I'd offend people by trying the improve the introduction. [[Image:Shogunshen_Sig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Black"> Shen (contribs) 19:55, 25 November 2007 (CET)
 * I'm not offended. It's just unnecessary. Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] (<font color="Black">contributions  * sandbox ) 20:25, 25 November 2007 (CET)

I thought it was kinda funny. — Skakid9090 19:54, 25 November 2007 (CET)


 * It sounds rather leet but for the larger part of the people reading this this comment won't make the least sense. <font color="#DA04FF">G OD L IES <font color="#DA04FF">T alk 20:07, 25 November 2007 (CET)
 * xD fancy--Shadowsin 20:08, 25 November 2007 (CET)

I'd change: economical primer for this quintessential for those of us who haven't graduated highschool yet. I don't think we should have "Shadow prison snare tehn killy killy" But...quintessential?--The Gates Assassin 06:05, 26 November 2007 (CET)
 * I APPROVE. --Pentient Engine Grammaticus 06:21, 26 November 2007 (CET)
 * Or, you could all just buy a dictionary and stop whining. It would do you good to improve your vocabulary for once. It's not like the American school system will teach you anything. 70.157.62.137 02:43, 30 November 2007 (CET)
 * Issue isn't about stupid Americans, it's about non-native anglophones. I sympathize, I'll change it for you. I don't even think 'quintessential' is the right word choice anyways; it relates to the ideals of perfection and purity, which doesn't have a lot to do with this attack chain. - [[Image:Kowal.jpg|15px]] <font face="dauphin" color="maroon">Krowman   03:11, 30 November 2007 (CET)
 * Yeah, because French is so much better. :O --71.229.204.25 03:25, 30 November 2007 (CET)
 * I think the dumb Americans would have more trouble with it than non-native english speakers... 70.157.62.137 03:28, 30 November 2007 (CET)
 * hwat about americans dumb being?--[[Image:ViYsig5.jpg|19px]] V c o y  (<font color="Darkblue">talk /<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 03:30, 30 November 2007 (CET)
 * Well, it is for non-native anglophones. ;) Anyways, As you can see, it is much more appropriate than 'quintessential' or 'super special,' being appleid to a meta build and all. - [[Image:Kowal.jpg|15px]] <font face="dauphin" color="maroon">Krowman   03:33, 30 November 2007 (CET)
 * Yep, much better. :P 70.157.62.137 04:02, 30 November 2007 (CET)
 * Damnit, rapta just deleted it. :( 70.157.62.137 04:04, 30 November 2007 (CET)
 * Eh, didn't know that it had an entire topic revolving around it. Restoring... &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 04:09, 30 November 2007 (CET)
 * Dumb american? I'm 16. Gimme a break--[[Image:Assassin-icon.png|20px]] The Gates Assassin[[Image:Assassin-icon.png|20px]] 02:17, 2 December 2007 (CET)
 * Excuse the source of the article. - [[Image:Kowal.jpg|15px]] <font face="dauphin" color="maroon">Krowman   06:42, 5 December 2007 (CET)
 * Bollocks to that. America is also one of the most populated, therefore the stupidity gene is more widely spread here. xD.--Shadowsin 07:12, 5 December 2007 (CET)
 * It's not a gene. USA citizens are not inherently less intelligent than any other citizen living in a developed country. Some will argue that citizens of developing or under-developed countries are less intelligent, due to the widespread malnutrition, thus inhibited physical and mental development, of their citizens. It's a question of education. If it wants to build a better society and improve the faltering economy, then the USA will have to stop concentrating its quality education to the private sector and the hands of the already-wealthy, and employ a program of widespread, quality public education. - [[Image:Kowal.jpg|15px]] <font face="dauphin" color="maroon">Krowman   07:20, 5 December 2007 (CET)
 * I agree, but Jerry Springer would disagree. xD.--Shadowsin 07:22, 5 December 2007 (CET)
 * His vote is worth as much as yours. - [[Image:Kowal.jpg|15px]] <font face="dauphin" color="maroon">Krowman   07:28, 5 December 2007 (CET)
 * Ouch~P.S. I'm aware stupidity isn't a gene, although the way some people act around this county it would seem like it. --Shadowsin 07:32, 5 December 2007 (CET)

Haha, I lol'd at "super special". Good one. <font color="Black"> Shen (contribs) 03:51, 30 November 2007 (CET)


 * Just use nifty, old adjectives are always hilarious. Moush 06:16, 5 December 2007 (CET)

SP Nerf
An additional 5secs of recharge. Doesn't seem that big of a deal, just thought we should get it out of the way. --71.229.204.25 02:45, 30 November 2007 (CET)
 * Yeah, doesn't do too much to the build. LavaEdge324 04:37, 2 December 2007 (CET)

Non-EotN Variant
I don't have EotN, etc, this is a non-EotN Variant that seems to work fairly well, etc... [build prof=Assassin/Warrior Crit=12+1 Dag=11+1+2 Dead=6][Shadow Prison][Tiger Stance@0][Black Mantis Thrust][Jungle Strike][Critical Strike][Black Spider Strike][Twisting Fangs][resurrection signet][/build] Still has a nice spike, Crit Strike has some decent E-management (and a guaranteed crit to boot), BSS adds Poison; I lose a KD basically, but hey, what can you do (besides buying it >_>) when you don't have EotN? LavaEdge324 04:37, 2 December 2007 (CET)

Overly Complicated Intro
Seems kinda retarded... An introduction to a build shouldn't need a link to an outside website so that people can understand it's meaning. Any support for simplifying it a bit? --75.176.60.177 05:11, 4 December 2007 (CET)
 * NO. D:< --71.229.204.25 05:15, 4 December 2007 (CET)
 * Heh, there was some discussion about it above. It used to be worse, then some users complained about it being difficult for users whose native language isn't English. So I fixed it. ;) - [[Image:Kowal.jpg|15px]] <font face="dauphin" color="maroon">Krowman   06:05, 4 December 2007 (CET)
 * We could just replace 'de rigeur' with 'standard' or 'meta'. If the build ever gets nerfed, it'll get archived anyway and not be meta anymore. --Mafaraxas 09:06, 4 December 2007 (CET)

Lmao this made my day
With dual functionality as a hex and shadow step, Shadow Prison provides an economical primer for this honkin' gud Assassin attack chain.

Lmfao We arent THAT stupid. I changed it so its not so dumbed down.-- The Gates Assassin 20:37, 6 December 2007 (CET)

I prefer using this
[build prof=Assassin/Warrior Crit=12+1 Dag=12+1+1 Dead=3][Shadow Prison][Tiger Stance@0][Black Mantis Thrust][Lotus Strike][Trampling Ox][Falling Spider][Twisting Fangs][resurrection signet][/build]

More degen, more conditions, and alot less conditional energy management. <font color="Blue">Unreal Havoc  20:45, 6 December 2007 (CET)
 * Takes longer so you don't kill stuff? Lord of all tyria 20:46, 6 December 2007 (CET)
 * +50 damage > poison IMO. And the only anti-KD skill I ever see in PvP is Aura of Stability. --71.229.204.25 20:47, 6 December 2007 (CET)
 * Except Cripple being removed before you hit Trampling maybe? And where the hell do you get +50 damage from? The bonus damage difference between the two isn't that great, and it hardly takes any longer to get kills with than the original build. [[Image:UnrealHavocSig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Unreal Havoc  20:55, 6 December 2007 (CET)
 * Jungle strike has awesomesauce conditional dmg. Also Balanced stance is often used in PvP. Sometimes WaS too.
 * I just find that the extra degen comes in handy once Deep Wound is applied imo. I mean the only difference degen aside, is around 20-25 damage roughly? And not having to rely on a KD for your energy management. There's pretty much little difference between the two in most respects I'm just posting my preference to make conversation. [[Image:UnrealHavocSig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Unreal Havoc  23:13, 6 December 2007 (CET)
 * You're contadicting yourself. Well not really but if you fail to KD your spike is dead anyways so there's really no point to it. Also relying on degen on a spiker is pretty fail. Not saying that this is not viable tho.  Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] (<font color="Black">contributions  * sandbox ) 23:16, 6 December 2007 (CET)

Also Jstrike has ½ activation which is leetsauce (less time to remove cripple before KD and also just plain haxx). Swiftslash \\  (<font color="Black">contributions  * sandbox ) 23:17, 6 December 2007 (CET)
 * (EC)Terrible variant. The spike's spontaneity is directly correlated with the effectiveness of the spike. The extra half-second is crucial. Look at this for an instance where this is true. Degen doesn't too much in a spike, poison is unnecessary. Raw bonus damage is better for this sin's purpose. [[Image:Shogunshen_Sig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Black"> Shen (contribs) 23:19, 6 December 2007 (CET)
 * Terrible? LMFAO! Hardly. Degen makes every bit of difference, you only need to look at the old SP sin to see that. It's also a quicker cover for Cripple than what Twisting Fangs supplies seems its dropped in earlier in the chain. [[Image:UnrealHavocSig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Unreal Havoc  23:25, 6 December 2007 (CET)
 * Degen changes the build's purpose. The only reason BSS was on the SP was because it was an offhand that paves the way for another dual. Cripple doesn't need a cover, it's only to meet condition for Trample, which knocks them down for the rest of the spike. I've exhausted your points. This variant sucks. [[Image:Shogunshen_Sig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Black"> Shen (contribs) 23:28, 6 December 2007 (CET)
 * Cripple isn't needed after trampling. Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] (<font color="Black">contributions  * sandbox ) 23:30, 6 December 2007 (CET)
 * No, because you're always guaranteed to kill your target. (Sarcasm). [[Image:UnrealHavocSig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Blue">Unreal Havoc  23:37, 6 December 2007 (CET)
 * No because dagger dmg is worthless and if you can't finish the chain you might as well retreat. @ Skuld: Doesn't really need better energy. Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] (<font color="Black">contributions  * sandbox ) 17:07, 7 December 2007 (CET)

The Lotus and Jungle variants are just a matter of choice. Lotus = better energy, Jungle = more damage. &mdash; Skuld 23:56, 6 December 2007 (CET)

In most builds, dmg wins- Jak123X 22:01, 7 December 2007 (CET)

Ty Ska
^:) Swiftslash \\   (<font color="Black">contributions  * sandbox ) 10:23, 9 December 2007 (CET)

Yeah
Makes enemies go boom.

Short and to the point. I like it. -- The Gates Assassin 18:47, 9 December 2007 (CET)
 * Yep... if anyone tries to change it to something else, I'll start a relentless revert war. --Mafaraxas 19:51, 9 December 2007 (CET)
 * I don't understand why people are having so much difficulty with the intro... Either they make it ridiculously sophisticated, or so simplistic it's just unappealing. I mean really... --Powersurge 05:49, 10 December 2007 (CET)
 * It's a joke, Power. --71.229.204.25 08:09, 10 December 2007 (CET)
 * Obviously, but jokes should be made on the talk page, not the introduction page. It looks sloppy. --Powersurge 02:12, 11 December 2007 (CET)
 * You take this too seriously. --71.229.204.25 02:18, 11 December 2007 (CET)
 * Indeed. The discussion on this talk page has got the intro covered. [[Image:Shogunshen_Sig.jpg|19px]]<font color="Black"> Shen (contribs) 02:19, 11 December 2007 (CET)
 * This could be offensive to terrorists or victims of terrorist attacks or kamikaze pilots or fireworks. Moush 09:24, 19 December 2007 (CET)
 * Your name could be offensive to people named Mosh who have partial face paralysis. :O --71.229.204.25 09:29, 19 December 2007 (CET)
 * fireworks...or anything explosive, which could offend anyone since at least the 15th century. Now that you brought up the point of offensiveness, the idea of using magic spells, multiple gods, humans becoming gods, and humans killing gods, is offensive to the majority of monotheists, which compose a significant portion of humanity, so we may as well not play GW. If you were being sarcastic, my bad. --Mafaraxas 09:33, 19 December 2007 (CET)
 * He was. You should really change the batteries on that detector of yours. --71.229.204.25 10:11, 19 December 2007 (CET)
 * Nevar. --Mafaraxas 10:30, 19 December 2007 (CET)

The Gates Assassin's Vote
Boo

Hex Breaker > This

Once ever 25 seconds

Blockable

Relies on 2 different things to work

Fully Calculated damage: Bad spike with no criticals= 240 + 100 = 340 damage

Good spike with all criticals = 413 damage + DW = 513 damage

Thats at 14 dagger mastery and on an average spike you will do about 380 damage without the DW.

Can only run Vamp if you have about 35 energy or are lucky enough to get a few crits mid combo

Doesn't get me lots of kills.

(skip intermediate stuff)

Old shadow prison was better, More damage, faster. This is...a last atempt to save it, not bad. YES I FULLY TESTED THIS BUILD IN MULTIPLE AREAS (RA, TA, HB, AB and GvG)


 * Hex Breaker hardly sees use in anything outside GvG (right?). To use that as an argument also invalidates your statement that the old SP sin was better, because that was always similarly countered. SP sin also required lengthier duration of Shadow Prison, to fulfill BSS, which outlines one advantage this one has to the old SP. The hex is only needed for the first attack in this sin. This sin's KD is also much less conditional than the archived SP. So really, this sin's chain is actually less conditional than the traditional SP sin, so you can throw your "Relies on 2 different things to work" argument out the window. The SP sin in its state archived right now was also blockable. Expose Defenses was begging to be nerfed in any case. More Attack skills means more chance for critical hit, meaning slightly more damage and more energy management. But I haven't addressed the huge flaw in your trash rating. You don't compare presently meta builds to archived ones. That argument alone invalidates your vote. Damage output from this sin will never be equivalent to the pre-nerf SP. Nothing ever will be. That's not a plausible reason to trash this build. It's ludicrous. [[Image:Shogunshen_Holidaysig.jpg|20px]]<font color="Darkgreen"> Shen <font color=#B22222>has <font color=#B22222>cookies 19:25, 19 December 2007 (EST)
 * No, he's right, this build is pretty crappy. Hexbreaker is carried by nearly every mesmer and monk in the AB arenas (the sins main targets other than eles), so that causes a ton of issues for me.  Also, I found myself consistantly running out of energy even after I swapped the inscription to a +5 energy.  The only people that I managed to kill consistantly were Rangers (go figure, right?).  This build is WAAAAY to conditional, way to energy heavy and way to weak to be worth a crap.  The metagame for monks is to bring no less than 2 fast condition removal skills and they will screw up your chain very quickly.Old Man Of Ascalon 19:45, 19 December 2007 (EST)
 * Really? Hex Breaker in AB? That's something. Radiant Armor gives you an energy pool of 35, which is all that is needed for this build. Energy problems are non existent. I don't care what you were or were not able to kill. It's less conditional than original SP. You're gonna need some godly reflexes or be hawking the sin perpetually to remove cripple that quickly. [[Image:Shogunshen_Holidaysig.jpg|20px]]<font color="Darkgreen"> Shen <font color=#B22222>has <font color=#B22222>cookies 19:48, 19 December 2007 (EST)
 * I run Hex Breaker in AB. Not that I'm taking a side or anything. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 21:34, 19 December 2007 (EST)

But ur gud at GW. -- <font color=#6e8b3d>frvwfr2  (T/C/Sysop) 21:38, 19 December 2007 (EST)


 * I didn't take off 3 poitns because hex breaker completely shuts down this build. I did because it's not very good. It only has one hex, so shut down is cake. It's Blockable, That again is a minor one. It's energy management is Crap, I stand by that. If you have to use 4 radiants just to run this then you lose health and survivablity which is already NONE (Another reason to put it down). Also on average it cuts off half the health of a good player, about 380 damage. That is fully calculated damage, NOT a guess, tahts what it does. YOu have to get all criticals to even get close to a kill, and all a monk needs is Rof and the spike is GONE. DW gets removed and the spike is GONE. Simple Guardian stops this completely. Only 2 of it's skill does very notable damage (Falling and Jungle). It's a nerfed build, its a last attempt to save it, I dont think its very good. I keep my vote as is. --[[Image:Assassin-icon.png|20px]] The Gates Assassin 15:36, 20 December 2007 (EST)
 * TBH, if you think this build is trash, then you pretty much just fail.Bob fregman 01:05, 23 December 2007 (EST)
 * I guess I fail then.--[[Image:Assassin-icon.png|20px]] The Gates Assassin 13:54, 23 December 2007 (EST)

It's true this build is not as good as the old shadow prison sin, but who the hell cares? It's the next best thing, how can you compare it to something that no longer works?--<font color="green" face="arial bold">Victory <font color="red" face="arial bold">is <font color="green" face="arial bold">Santas 14:14, 23 December 2007 (EST)

Remove his vote please. --Readem


 * Raised Effectiveness to a 3, since I guess its suppose to be a mindless spiker. Universality I kept along with Innovation, its shadow prison and its blockable, and once ever 25 seconds.Done QQing?--[[Image:Assassin-icon.png|20px]] The Gates Assassin 17:55, 24 December 2007 (EST)
 * To rate this build anything other than great condemns the Assassin class. There is no better sin spike. Your argument still contains huge flaws, and you've not addressed any of them. [[Image:Shogunshen_Holidaysig.jpg|20px]]<font color="Darkgreen"> Shen <font color=#B22222>has <font color=#B22222>cookies 18:04, 24 December 2007 (EST)
 * The spike is good if you manage to get that one clean spike in with no counter healing whatsoever etc, however the versatility and utility of this build isn't really that good. I'd rather use a Signet Spiker or an AoD Assassin than this to be honest. Selket Shadowdancer 18:16, 24 December 2007 (EST)
 * Condemns the assassin class? By saying it sucks? It has one of the worse recharges for a spike, it doesn't do that much damage, one heal and the spike is gone, only has a KD to make the spike go thru. It has no utility, no way it can spike over 70 armor, and no self heal. To me there are much better options. --[[Image:Assassin-icon.png|20px]] The Gates Assassin 18:43, 24 December 2007 (EST)
 * If you're solo spiking at the stand with this for no apparent reason, you fail. Have other people spike with you (orb etc), or spike off-target. – Ichigo 724 [[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 18:48, 24 December 2007 (EST)
 * To add to that, you aren't doing it right if you even let a self-heal go off. That's not to say an infuse in during the spike doesn't ruin it, but an infuse will ruin anything. A KD is all you need for a spike to go through. That is, if you don't suck at coordinating. No utility for a spike sin. O really? Again, unless you suck at coordinating, this spike will kill. No self-heal on a spike build. That's the crappiest reason you've put up yet. I would like to see you find another sin build that serves this exact same purpose. You won't. [[Image:Shogunshen_Holidaysig.jpg|20px]]<font color="Darkgreen"> Shen <font color=#B22222>has <font color=#B22222>cookies 18:52, 24 December 2007 (EST)
 * This is a gank build, not a frontline sin. In the block meta, bring it to the frontline like you say would be stupid. As a gank I dont see how 25 second recharge spikes are good for that. Alone in RA this build will die to monk teams and basically anyone with a self heal or the very combo antimele/block (Antimelee everyone dies to but block is different). Then the match is over and you did one failed spike. in TA Monk keeps guardian up and your spike is gone, if you brought someone to remove it, it works there. In HA, fine works there. In HB, it kinda works, but with all the shrines and high health and NO DP, spikes only get in if every target is really low. EDIT: Aura of Displacement.--[[Image:Assassin-icon.png|20px]] The Gates Assassin 19:23, 24 December 2007 (EST)
 * You still don't get it. You are doing this wrong if you let Guardian mess up your chain. Don't suck at spiking. You can use that lame-ass argument for any spike build, AoD included. My freakin goodness. You do not know how RA works if you say this fails in RA. [[Image:Shogunshen_Holidaysig.jpg|20px]]<font color="Darkgreen"> Shen <font color=#B22222>has <font color=#B22222>cookies 19:28, 24 December 2007 (EST)
 * (EC) When you compare this to the old Shadow Prison Assassin, which had some utility (ie: Anti blocking measures) then saying that a build doesn't need utility to be successful is kind of ironic if I'm honest. What made the old Shadow Prison Assassin great was the fact that if someone did put up defensive blocking then you could mow right through it, not to mention it was all done in a much shorter chain. Nowadays most monks even carry blocking measures so this is hardly that effective against anyone with a smart Monk on their team, even in a joint spike, unless the targets defensive measures are removed first, something that this version of the Shadow Prison can't do anything about alone which makes it more relaible on other team mates. I don't even see this used that much to be honest, regardless of how meta it may or may not be. Versatility is still an issue, one interrupt and you left kiting for 25 seconds waiting for skills to recharge. The spike is good, that I won't deny, but the easy counters against it compared to lets say the SoJ Signet Spiker, which is still used effectively despite the nerf and can be used at range, leaves that the more preferable option with more knockdownlockdown and versatility with it's chain. EDIT: By the way MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!!! :D Selket Shadowdancer 19:33, 24 December 2007 (EST)
 * You can start using AoD every 13ish seconds, You can start using shadow prison ever 25. AoD has utility KDs that you can use every 10 seconds and one that is midcombo. SPs has one every 25 seconds if nothing goes wrong. AoD has room for self heal and snare. Sp doesn't. EDIT: =D only 5 more hours till christmas morning!--[[Image:Assassin-icon.png|20px]] The Gates Assassin 19:37, 24 December 2007 (EST)
 * (RI)Merry Christmas to you too. Why would you ever compare this build to the pre-nerf Sp sin. To do so is meaningless. The AoM Dervish can't cope with Blocking. Perhaps a better example would be the Shadow Axe, which also can't cope with blocking. No argument you've presented can be considered relevant. This is certainly HB meta. SoJ signet Spiker has nothing to do with this. Completely screwed by the nerf. Make better parallels. [[Image:Shogunshen_Holidaysig.jpg|20px]]<font color="Darkgreen"> Shen <font color=#B22222>has <font color=#B22222>cookies 19:41, 24 December 2007 (EST)
 * It had utility. It lost it. The build died. This was a try to save it, didn't go so well. SoJ is still used by people. AoD is the perfect parallel, and it destroys this build IMO.--[[Image:Assassin-icon.png|20px]] The Gates Assassin 19:46, 24 December 2007 (EST)
 * (EC) To keep it short, I agree, sorry. :) Selket Shadowdancer 19:49, 24 December 2007 (EST)
 * What does (EC) and (RI) mean...--[[Image:Assassin-icon.png|20px]] The Gates Assassin 19:54, 24 December 2007 (EST)
 * Edit conflict / Real Life Selket Shadowdancer 19:57, 24 December 2007 (EST)
 * Oh so you use it if you edit your post at all.....yeah I'm going to be using that a lot now.--[[Image:Assassin-icon.png|20px]] The Gates Assassin 20:05, 24 December 2007 (EST)
 * No, EC is for when you get into an edit conflict. RI is reset indent. AoD has entirely different usage, I dunno why you compare this build to that. [[Image:Shogunshen_Holidaysig.jpg|20px]]<font color="Darkgreen"> Shen <font color=#B22222>has <font color=#B22222>cookies 20:17, 24 December 2007 (EST)
 * Spike builds that shadow step without anti block. Apperently they are both gank builds. (Whats an edit conflict)--[[Image:Assassin-icon.png|20px]] The Gates Assassin 20:29, 24 December 2007 (EST)
 * There you go again, trying to falliciously glorify a build which suffers from the same counters. Even when AoD is used primarily in GvG because it is so mobile. No matter what the tags say, this really sees use only in HBs. It's enough to separate the two. [[Image:Shogunshen_Holidaysig.jpg|20px]]<font color="Darkgreen"> Shen <font color=#B22222>has <font color=#B22222>cookies 20:33, 24 December 2007 (EST)
 * I think that's the point Shen. It only really sees use in HB, because even though the spike is good there's just too much against it compared to other builds to be worth putting up in other arenas nowadays. Oh and sorry I mistook the I for an L earlier :D Selket Shadowdancer 20:35, 24 December 2007 (EST)
 * Still doesn't justify his rating; in fact, it screws it over. [[Image:Shogunshen_Holidaysig.jpg|20px]]<font color="Darkgreen"> Shen <font color=#B22222>has <font color=#B22222>cookies 20:38, 24 December 2007 (EST)
 * While some may think this is the best Assassin build since sliced bread I have yet to see an actual good reason why this is great. If someone can actually elaborate on that I'm sure it will help to sway the arguement, because all a handful of us who aren't biased can see is a build that can do good damage yet very conditionally with little versatility if that spike is messed up in any way, shape, or form. I know how to use an Assassin effectively, I can use this effectively, but I don't think this is that great from my experiences with it unless someone adds some logical insight as to why it is so great. Selket Shadowdancer 21:14, 24 December 2007 (EST)
 * So why then are there tags for every single form of PvP avialable if its an HB build? --[[Image:Assassin-icon.png|20px]] The Gates Assassin 21:20, 24 December 2007 (EST)