User talk:Choytw/GoL

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Background
GoL or WoH...which to use and why is a semi-debate I'm in right now and needed a place to set some thoughts down...so here we are. I'm not going to be looking at this skill in conjuction with anything else since these should win on their merits and their merits alone.

Ally > 50% Scenario
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At about 13 Healing prayers, GoL heals for 101 health and WoH heals for 113 (when allie is > 50% health). Both cost 5e and at first glance, WoH seems to be the much better skill...until you look at recharge times. As can be seen from the links, GoL has a downtime of 1/2s (1.25s recharge - .75s delay) while WoH has 3s downtime (3.75s - .75s delay) which turns out to about 80.8 health/s for GoL and 30.13 health/s for WoH. Obviously, it seems like GoL is a much better option here than WoH. Now to < 50% health.

Ally < 50% Scenario
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Here things get a bit tricky. In this scenario, GoL still heals for 101 health; but now, WoH heals for 202 (113 + 89). Suprisingly, GoL still trumps WoH for healing/s. WoH now comes in at 53.86 health/s. The shady part comes when comparing health/s to health/energy point. In this scenario, GoL return 20.2 health/energy point while WoH returns 40.4 -- double. Another view, in order to get 202 health out of GoL, you would need to spend 10 energy instead of 5 (101/5=20.2 -health/energy- -> 202/20.2=10). However, you can still get more health out in 3 seconds then you can with WoH in 3.75.

Summary
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The only scenario where GoL might loose is with the < 50% scenario. In this scenario the only drawback is that you spend 5 extra energy to get the same amount of health out but you can get it out in 3/4's the time. My view is that all you need is good e-management and GoL is overall, the best bet.

Basically, I see GoL (in extreme circumstances) as a 15e 303hp heal in 3.75s while WoH is only a 202hp heal @ 5e for 3.75s. Again, GoL can just as easily be a 10e heal for the same amount as WoH (so no, "it costs 15e and WoH only costs 5e!!!!")

Input (you)
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Feel free to contribute...Choytw 16:13, 20 May 2008 (EDT)
 * might want to add this to the actual page rather than the talk page maybe? God  box   12:35, 21 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Do you think a link will be enough to direct them here for a discussion? Thought it might be better organized to have this seperate page since this seems to be a disagreement on how these two skills should be used vs how they are used in a build as a whole. If the consensus is no, I (or anyone else can) don't mind moving it to the build.  Choytw 11:02, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * And you seem to totally disregard energy. WoH is mainly as an emergency heal and will never be used when target is below 50%; the main one you use is Patient Spirit. God  box   12:36, 21 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Don't believe I totally disregarded it, but currently believe that the other benefits outweigh the additional 5e cost. Did you mean that WoH will never be used when the target is above 50%?  Doesn't seem to make sense the other way since then it is much more inefficient.  Choytw 11:02, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * 5 energy may very well prove the difference between life and death; as a monk you should spend as little energy as possible to accomplish as much as possible. Yes I meant that; you don't mindlessly spam WoH - you use it as a cheap 200 health heal.
 * With Balth, I'm usually never hurting for energy. Now granted, there have been exceptions, but usually with a mes who is interrupting and stealing energy at the same time, but I'm not sure there's a work-around for that. So, since I have a nearly unlimited energy pool, the 5e hasn't made that much of a difference so far.  Let me ask you this, if there was a skill that garnered you 300 health every 3.75s for 15e, would you use it?  Choytw 15:19, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I think I already know the answer (no)...I honestly think this gets down to if you take any protection skills. If you do, you don't mind waiting until an ally gets down to < 50% hp because they don't loose the rest that fast so you have time to do the 'big' heal for multiple allies before one of them dies...I on the other hand don't like prot skills so I heal before they get low in health.
 * Just had a burst of insight (or so it seems at first lol)...you use patient spirit with prot skills right (like RoF, SoA, or PS)?  Take the energy that you would've spent there and simply transfer that to GoL.  Now you can dump your attribute points in prot and raise the ones in healing or divine favor.  Now you're spending the same amount of energy but are either getting more health from higher healing prayers or from a higher divine attribute. Choytw 15:23, 22 May 2008 (EDT)

I wanna spend energy protting, not spamming GoL like a retard. The 200 from WoH is instant while with glimmer they just hit him again and he dies before its recharged. WoH is more energy efficient and alot more time effiecient; it actually gives you time to use other spells. &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Rawr. 12:00, 29 May 2008 (EDT)


 * Let's try to keep the personal insults out of it hmm? The only downside to GoL was that it costs 10 energy to get the same healing out the door as WoH would but in less time (actually it gets more out in two casts if you include the bonus form Divine Favor).  Obviously that isn't the case once you look at other skills that are used with WoH.  And I still have time to cast other skills in the 1/4 - 1/2s window if need be (i.e. Patient Spirit on another ally or a 'cleaning' skill). Choytw 14:53, 29 May 2008 (EDT)
 * That was not a personal attack. And wahoo, I have half as much efficiency as someone else by spamming Glimmer!  15:01, 29 May 2008 (EDT)
 * People who rely on Prot skills and cast WoH are like retards...see my point now? And I disagree, I don't have to use protection skills and can thus split up the 202 energy two ways. So I'm using about the same amount of energy by casting GoL instead of your prot skills with most being able to be removed (with the exception of the short duration ones like RoF). Choytw 15:04, 29 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Thats basically sayin a build is retarded. And Prot>Heals. Always.  15:06, 29 May 2008 (EDT)
 * There's a difference in saying that a build is retarded and saying that someone is like a retard who commits action X. Besides, I haven't heard the word 'retard' since about eighth grade...unbelievably 14 years ago.  Anyway, now you're getting away from a constructed argument and falling back on generalized statements.  I can say Spirit Bond > PS all day long but it doesn't help any unless I back it up. Choytw 15:10, 29 May 2008 (EDT)

Just so you guys know, this build(follows) just got me 14 flawless (out of 16 games) interrupted by my dying in game 6 (knockdowns) and in the last battle in TA, again due to knockdowns....that's 5 flawless in TA with an RA group: [build prof=monk/eleme healin=12+1+1 divine=10+1 prot=2 earthma=8][cure hex][smite hex][glimmer of light][patient spirit][dismiss condition][mending touch][Kinetic Armor][balthazar's spirit][/build] We even kicked a dual monk team's arse in TA. Choytw 22:34, 29 May 2008 (EDT)

So, after two more runs, I think I can say that the counters to this are knockdowns and teams with two mes's with mindwrack and energy steal. I have two hex removals, and still couldn't keep it off as fast as they could cast...not to mention that they both had signet of humility and so left me with only one heal...which I couldn't use lol  Choytw 23:25, 29 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Why couldn't you use patient?  09:23, 30 May 2008 (EDT)


 * Because of energy steals. They kept me at < 5 energy the entire time.  I think they were using generic energy steals and then once I got low and couldn't cast, they started using Waste Not Want Not since I couldn't cast.  Since they both had Mind Wrack, I was taking 80 damage about every 2 seconds while having a completely degenerated energy pool.  As a disclaimer, if there was only one Mesmer, I think I would've been fine since MW has a 5 second recharge and I have two hex removals...but with two, they could steal energy and cast MW twice as fast. Choytw 09:37, 30 May 2008 (EDT)

Rawr, I still don't think you understand my build. If I'm not being KD'd or MW'd to death, my party doesn't reach the < 50% hp mark. So your comment about WoH is instant 200 while GoL isn't and he'll just be hit again and die before GoL recharges...is completely wrong. For one, I can get more health out in the same amount of time than WoH can and second they have enough health still to withstand 4 more huge attacks let alone one. Choytw 09:37, 30 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Against not sucky people, then you're wrong sorry. Glimmer just can't outheal pressure, its too energy inefficient. &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Rawr. 16:56, 30 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I guess that's where we disagree. The only time my teams is unsuccessful is when going up against a KD team or a team with two mes's in the before described fluke (the team is great at shutting down casters, but sucks against melee so would not commonly be put together in TA).  And again, simply take the energy that would be spent on prot skills and reserve that for GoL.  So now it's not energy inefficient (because it has advantages over WoH) and we're left with not being able to withstand pressure.  As for that, I absolutely know you're wrong since I can negate my damage from two sins while at the same time keeping everyone else alive.  Or another situation, I'm being spiked and everyone else is taking damage while at the same time having numerous degen which I can consistently heal and remove all their conditions.  Honestly, this is a very good build as I've found by using time and time again.  Choytw Talk Debates  12:40, 1 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Thing is, Protting is more efficient than healing. Guardian>2 GoL's I would think.  12:48, 1 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I've gone the guardian route, and it only blocks 50% (which I usually can't even tell a difference) and is something that can be stripped so it's not a definite heal. Plus, it can only effect one person for the duration while GoL can be used on multiple.  I don't think the attributes would be a problem since you'd probably just take them out of earth and put them into prot. Choytw Talk Debates  15:33, 1 June 2008 (EDT)
 * That's not a useful comparison. Guardian makes a monk. To Choy, personal experience isn't an argument. WoH is better than GoL, as Rawr says. This mindset that outhealing damage is better than protting is wrong. -Shen 14:33, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Eh, guardian can be stripped and is very energy intensive. Personal experience is an argument.  Why do you think guardian makes a monk?  Personal experience one way or another (either using it or having it used on you).  WoH, imo, is not better than GoL overall.  Again, personal opinion based on past experiences.  Outhealing damage over protting gets rid of all enchant removals.  Eh, I've made all the points above.  So far all I've gotten are generic comments like, "prot > heal is just the way it is" or "WoH > GoL...just the way it is" when I've found differently everytime I try to trust you guys and actually use WoH.  I will say that protting works very very well, it just has its drawbacks which to me, makes healing a more viable option.  Choytw Talk Debates  14:54, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 * If what you believe is senseless, it doesn't count. On PvX, only a few good people assert their view of the way something works to make sense. It is imperative you realize everything people say is going to based on personal experience (unless you theorycraft; PvX breeds grade-A theorycrafters), but the value of your argument doesn't skyrocket because you can say "I had that experience before". -Shen 15:18, 10 June 2008 (EDT)
 * "If what you believe is senseless, it doesn't count" - you're stripping it away from belief based on encounters. No, anyone who simply says X > Y is either lazy or does not have a good argument.  "It is imperative you realize..."...that was my point.  You said personal experience is not an argument and then turn around and say it is?...  "but the value of your argument doesn't skyrocket because you say "I had that experience before" - Now you're stripping the repeated experiences.  This wasn't a once in a blue moon fluke, but something that consistently excells. Choytw Talk Debates  15:27, 10 June 2008 (EDT)

People who are experienced make sense. Other people don't. I can't just believe your personal experience if all you offer me is "It happened to me-it must be right". By your logic, an appropriate rebuke would be something like "It doesn't happen to me, therefore I'm right." I confused you because you seemed to change your connotation of personal experience, so I went with it. As far as your "consistently excel" clause, I don't make the distinction of single instances and consistent experiences. I'm not trying to. -Shen 15:40, 10 June 2008 (EDT)


 * Some people who are experienced make sense. I offered you more above (or the user page associated with this talk page...been a while).  No, not by my logic since I put up my defense for the hole poking to commence.  No connotations changed (since that's the meaning others attach to words).  You said that experience can not be an argument but also said that Guardian makes a monk and so I was contrasting your two statements together.  Your belief in what makes a monk is based on personal experience and therefore guilty of what you were saying makes a bad argument.  There is a HUGE difference between single instances and repeatable ones.  When an individual tests a build...what do you think they're looking for?  Obviously that it performs well over a period of time...so repeat matters yes?  Choytw Talk Debates  15:47, 10 June 2008 (EDT)

Check this out, particularly the first post in this section by Edru Viransu. Arguably the best monk in game runs what? ;-) I don't believe there have been any major updates to either skill since sept of 07.  Choytw Talk Debates  11:45, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * You totally miss the point, he was saying good players sometimes run bad builds and get away with it. - 11:48, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * So you say Guardian is bad? Hmm, break assa's chains, cut warrior adrenaline gain in half, make it so they can't reliably spike, block interrupts, etc... And you say its energy intensive? 5 Energy every 7-8 seconds?  11:53, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * GoL spam might create energy issues and has lower energy/heal ratio than WoH. --Tiger  [[Image:Tiger's Fury Tigrr.jpg|19px]]  grrr!!  11:53, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * @Misery, the point was that he can run it and make it work. Now unless he has a special deal with a-net, that also means it can for the rest of us. So no, I didn't miss the point  Choytw Talk Debates  12:16, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * @Frvwfr2, no, did not say it was bad, just listed some issues with it - the main one being that it is a skill that has a long recharge time and can be stripped. Choytw Talk Debates 12:16, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * @Tiger, might, but doesn't as I've found to be the case. Only time I have energy issues is when facing e-denial mes's. Choytw Talk Debates  12:16, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Long recharge? 4s? And how do you not like it... It is THE single most useful spell, in any situation, other than RoF maybe... Against melee it is better than RoF.  12:24, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I dislike it for the same reason I dislike WoH. It takes a skill slot that can only be beneficial to one person for a large amount of time when compared to other 'spammable skills'.  Also, in order to be beneficial, in my build at least, I would have to lower divine or healing to make it even remotely effective which would gimp my build.  On your reply, pleae don't focus on this aspect since I have other reservations as well (i.e. if you ran a better bar it wouldn't 'gimp' you [and then not address my other concerns]) Choytw Talk Debates  12:41, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Logic, so, flawed. I think I'll come back when I'm bored at work and deconstruct. - 14:47, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Please do. What I have found is that my team dies with WoH and they stay alive, with no energy issues on my part I might add, when I run GoL.  I also know that another user people consider a great monk occasionally runs GoL and supposedly makes it work.  What I'm trying to say is that I'm not using flawed logic, because at first glance, WoH seems to be best; however, when I go to use it, it clashes with what I logically assume would happen.  So, as a result, I try to construct arguments for why it does work > others.  If you're instead talking about Guardian...disregard previous and let the invite to deconstruct stand  ;-)  Choytw Talk Debates  14:55, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I haven't read everything yet, but I'm referring mostly to everything you've said that I have read ;) - 15:02, 12 June 2008 (EDT)

Like what in particular? I'm sure you will clarify later, but simply saying, "bad logic" doesn't help me much. <font color="Blue">Choytw Talk Debates 15:31, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Speed > Efficiency, not liking skills with recharge times such that they can only be used on one character at a time, if someone good can make it work it works, the original premise of comparing two skills isolated from any other skill. - 15:35, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * (resetting indent) Efficiency has already been addressed so please see my response. 1 skill = 1 char: this is why I don't like WoH.  The long recharge means that the skill is out of commission and can't be used to help another player.  I will agree that it is nice for the player it's on, but I would rather go for something that can't be stripped and isn't tied up with one person.  Someone good works = works - what is wrong with this?  If I can make the build work, someone leet can as well, perhaps there's something to it?  A lot of content here is purely academic, but don't apply that to me.  I've used GoL with much, much more success than WoH.  skill intrisically good/bad = fail: why is this illogical?  True, other skills can help the one being studied better, but shouldn't you take the best skills available which synergize with each other?  When you introduce new skills to the equation, you also have to start taking into account the added energy (which I touched on), add possible counters (stripping), and if you do it for one, you have to do it with all - since a build should work together.  Now we're back at discussion builds instead of comparing two skills to take.  No, I think it is obvious that testing two skills based on their merritts alone is not illogical <font color="Blue">Choytw Talk Debates  15:49, 12 June 2008 (EDT)
 * See, that's why I didn't want to say anything until I had it all written out, you are trying to refute my argument without even knowing what it is. I'll edit spike later at some point with an epic wall of text, then you can incorrectly refute my argument if you wish. - 03:23, 13 June 2008 (EDT)

Misery's Epic Wall of Text
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Ok, first we will have look at your comparison of GoL to WoH. Now you decided to look at this skills in absence of everything else, that would be a comparison of these two bars:

Now while unnecessary to actually place those bars, the reason I did it was to show how ridiculous the concept is, you have 8 skill slots in Guild Wars, not one. Yes, if all you are going to do is spam your elite, Glimmer of Light is a superior skill. That is because Glimmer of Light is a skill designed to be spammed while Word of Healing is a skill designed for the highest possible healing efficiency, thus comparing healing per second between them would be like comparing damage per second between Eviscerate and Mending Touch, it doesn’t make sense, they are designed for completely different things. You also decided to compare WoH and GoL in two different situations, above 50% health and below 50% health. The way WoH is used you shouldn’t be using it on people above 50% health, unless of course you are on full energy and pressure is coming in so slowly through your prot that not casting anything would be a waste of energy, so it doesn’t hurt to top up someone’s bar. Also, if you mindlessly spam either skill, a skilled player will interrupt it just based upon timing the interrupt with the skill’s recharge. This will leave you in a world of pain, especially if they disable your primary healing skill with something like Distracting Shot. Yes, it is possible and even not that difficult to do this with a quarter second cast spell like Glimmer of Light.

On to your comments about more healing per second, you claim that GoL outperforms WoH by casting GoL 3 times per for every one cast of WoH. What you are missing out on is the opportunity cost of standing still to cast GoL three times. With aftercast you get a total of 0.75 seconds during those three casts during which you can do something else. Due to the aftercast on any skill you use in that time, you can not cast anything else to keep up that level of casting, all you could do is kite for a quarter second at a time, which I think we can all agree, would not achieve much. Someone casting WoH on recharge however could cast another spell or spend three seconds kiting. If your opponents do not have speed boosts and you are not snared, kiting negates all damage from melee and prevents the build-up of adrenaline, so assuming a standardish DPS of 50, in this ideal situation you would heal for WoH's maximum, because you aren’t using it foolishly, and prevent 150 damage while reducing the adrenaline gain of any enemy warriors.

Realistically your opponents will have speed boosts if they are any good and there is a good chance you will be snared too, that is why other skills come into the equation. Now a common skill to use in this situation would be a blocking skill, either something like Guardian or a defensive stance. Now on the surface it would appear like this would reduce DPS somewhere between 75 and 50%, so saying two people are attacking you 50-75 damage per second negated. See this illustrates the effectiveness of prot, the amount healed is often uncapped, when used correctly to maximise effect it can get substantially more “healing per second” and efficiency than a healing spell. Another thing which needs to be considered is what might get blocked. If you block a condition applying skill, you no longer need to remove that condition, if you block a deep wound applying skill, your healing will not become 20% less effective and efficient. If you block part of an assassins chain, they are completely useless until their chain recharges. I know you can’t use WoH or Guardian on 2 people at the same time, but that is why you have 8 skills on your bar, you use another skill during the downtime of each skill and your whole team should be working to reduce the overall pressure your team takes by kiting. You talk about the strippability of prot, but remember, they had to spend time and energy ripping that prot that could have been used damaging, hexing, etc. You haven’t lost anything if they strip a prot and no one is going to strip a prot before it is able to have any effect, unless you are throwing them around at random. You need to watch the field instead of the red bars, see where damage is going to end up and throw prot there just before it reaches.

Now, you have been using Glimmer of Light more or less correctly, you are supposed to spam the crap out of that skill, it is what it was designed for. Word of Healing on the other hand was not designed for this, so using it in a similar way is doomed to fail from the start. Word of Healing should be used in conjunction with prot in such a way that only one member of your team will ever drop below 50% at any one time and these times will be more than 3 seconds apart. With efficient preprotting in arenas I often find myself sitting with full energy, no one in need of healing.

I’d like to take this moment to define something, monk failure. Monk failure is defined as having a team mate die while you still have energy. Now, to clarify, this is not zero energy in whatever weapon set you are currently using, this is zero energy in your highest energy set. From your comments about your battles with two mesmers, it appears you are not energy hiding. This is a technique where you use two or more weapon sets with different energy levels so that you can sit in your lowest energy set when not casting so that they cannot reduce your energy below zero, then swap up to a higher energy set, cast the spells you need, then swap back to a lower energy set so they can not steal your energy. If you still have energy available and somebody dies, you have failed as a monk. Some failure is expected and borderline acceptable. It’s understandable that you missed that clean single skill spike, that’s a twitch reaction based partially off guessing who the target is from positioning, knowing who is spikeable and who isn’t, knowing who is a threat to the other team and watching the spikers. This is where the efficiency vs. effectiveness argument comes from. If you are a good monk, while you still have energy left, no one should die. There are extremes of this, you can be shut down (Wail of Doom, Diversion and no skills you can sacrifice and no pre-Veil and interrupts) but generally speaking, if you have energy left, no one should die because you should be able to cast something on your bar to save them. Guild wars can almost be boiled down to a battle of four sets of bars, two sets of red bars, one for each team and two sets of blue bars, the monks/healers on each team, wasting energy is the equivalent of wasting health in the form of lost opportunities to cast other skills that would either heal for more or reduce the amount of damage more. The low recharge of GoL is actually no advantage at all because what you could have done in that time is cast a spell that would be even more efficient than either GoL or WoH. There is a slight advantage in the faster cast time as it makes you more difficult to interrupted, but 0.75 second casts are difficult to interrupt anyway and you can make it even harder by not spamming on recharge, good positioning and if you come up against someone really good, cancel casting.

Now I find it a little amusing that you don’t like Guardian because it can only be used on one person and could be stripped reducing it’s overall effect, while on your monk bar you have taken Kinetic Armor. This can only ever be used on yourself and has a devastating effect if it ever gets stripped as it will be almost impossible to reapply if the enemy team has any interrupts and has a horrific cost. If they strip an enchantment that lasts 5 seconds and recharges in 4, they haven’t really achieved a hell of a lot, it is going to be back up, probably in about a second or two when you factor in that they wouldn’t have stripped it immediately.

Now lets take a look at your “good” monk bar that got you 15 wins. You have two kinds of hex removal, this isn’t inherently bad, people run a lot of hexes occasionally, but on of these, Smite Hex, has very little additional effect at the attribute, zero, that you are running it at. In this case either Remove Hex would be better for its faster recharge or Holy Veil would be better due to the ability to prevail, either of which is of greater benefit than 10 AoE damage randomly triggering. However, you got 15 wins using this less than ideal bar, does that make my comments above about why either of those other two skills would be better invalid? No, it simply means that you had a good team that could cover up for any inadequacies on your bar, you played sufficiently well with a good bar and your opponents were not good enough to exploit this disadvantage, that is, until you came up against a team with dual mesmers where pre-Veiling or faster recharge would have been helpful. You also say you never have problems with energy when you have Balthazar’s Spirit and Kinetic Armor up. This means mostly that your opponents were of a poor calibre, which is often the case in RA and sometimes the case in TA. If they could see you at the start they should have seen those two skills go up and have known not to attack you. It might have been forgivable to not know about Balthazar’s Spirit and give you free energy, but everyone attacking the monk is dumb anyway and they should have realised you were taking very little damage due to something they couldn’t see (Kinetic Armor) and switched targets. If they weren’t attacking you, you would have had energy problems and in all likelihood lost, unless you cancelled Balthazar’s Spirit, in which case a smart move would be to switch some pressure back to you after stripping Kinetic Armor.

This follows on naturally to a discussion of why it “working” for someone else doesn’t mean it is the best skill for the job. A great monk can use crappy skills and still come out on top as long as their own skill is sufficient to cover for the ineffectiveness of their build and their opponents are not skilled enough to overcome this weakness. One good monk running GoL on occasion does not make evidence for a good skill when he runs WoH every other day of the week and every other good monk likewise runs WoH (or one of the other good elites). Typically you only really see four monk elites in high level play, Healer’s Boon, Word of Healing, Restore Condition and Shield of Deflection (Very occasionally some people still run Light of Deliverance or perhaps Zealous Benediction). Exactly what is used depends on the total team build and individual playstyle. This is because the community experience as a whole has demonstrated that these are the best skills for keeping a team of eight alive. This experience based upon thousands of players is of greater value than the experience of any one single player, unless of course that player happens to be one of the top players. In this case however their experience may be worthless to other players because they are not skilled enough to use their methods effectively.

This actually brings me to something; this is why you have not had success with Word of Healing in comparison to Glimmer of Light. GoL is actually worse than Word of Healing when used correctly, but it is easier to use so a greater effect can be achieved by a poor player using GoL than with WoH. This is actually interesting and is the reason why before Patient Spirit was fixed that Healer’s Covenant was so popular in arenas. It wasn’t because it was good, but rather because poor players could use it better than a standard monk bar. The same is true of bonders. I used to play with these kinds of monks and I even used to play as a dervish healer. I was a damn good dervish healer back then, I could get 15-20 win streaks from RA, but now that I’ve learnt to play as a heal-prot WoH hybrid (in my opinion the best arena monk bar, Tab loving ZB aside) I can’t play as a dervish healer any more. I’m winning more consistently and doing better in TA against better teams, but I can’t even comprehend how the hell I played as a dervish healer in the past, that technique is now counter-intuitive to me. It plays in a similar manner to the build you posted above, you tank all the damage for your team while you throw heals around to keep everyone else up. It farms bad people, however bad people are easy to farm, the trick is to find a way to beat good people.

The best monk bar I’ve ever used is this, or a variant of this:

[build prof=monk/warrior healingprayers=12+1+1 protectionprayers=10+1 divinefavor=8+1][Patient Spirit][Dismiss Condition][optional][Spirit Bond][Guardian][Holy Veil][Shield Bash][Contemplation of Purity][/build]

Notice how there is no elite in that build? That is because I don’t actually need the elite. I sometimes put random shit in there in RA to practice monking without an elite, which is good practice if something goes wrong and your elite gets disabled by Diversion, Signet of Humility or Distracting Shot. Usually the spot is taken by Word of Healing and I have been monkeying around with different prot (dropping Spirit Bond), extra self defence and different condition removals. One of the best elites I ever used for training was “Coward!”, this skill forced me to use my prot very effectively to prevent deaths and kept my eyes on the field because otherwise my elite would have been useless. I got ten wins with that by the way, it doesn’t make it a good bar, it makes me epic.

If you want to improve your monking, learn how to use prot and WoH. This may make it possible for you to make the jump from arenas to higher level play. If you are happy playing in arenas and are having fun with your current monk setup, feel free to ignore any advice posted here, by all means keep enjoying yourself, but do not try to argue that GoL is a better skill than WoH when it is not and do not expect the PvX community to accept builds that are fun and easy to play to be stored anywhere other than in your user space. Feel free to respond, if I feel like you are ignoring everything I’ve said, I’ll just leave you be, but I will clarify any points and things I have said can certainly attempt to be refuted, I just hope you enjoyed the massive wall of text. - 05:11, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
 * tl;dr --[[Image:Ibreaktoilets_Signature.jpg|User:Ibreaktoilets|20px]]<font color="Black">Tab  <font color="Black">Moo  05:12, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
 * May I ask you how much time you have spent writing this, very dedicated I would say, good job. --<font face="Forte" color="OrangeRed">Tiger  [[Image:Tiger's Fury Tigrr.jpg|19px]] <font color="Black"> grrr!!  06:27, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
 * I dunno, 20-30 minutes, I'm waiting for my equipment to finish cleaning. I could be more productive but... no u. - 06:31, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Do you stand around and mock the grime sometimes when noone's looking like "LOL IM CUKEN U WIF MAH AUTOCLAYV!" You know you want to. - PANIC!  [[Image:Panic_sig4.png|50px|18px]] <font color="#D70000"> sexiness!  06:36, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
 * ups. Epic wall of text is indeed epic. You should consider proceeding to a more srs bsns forum. God  box    06:57, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
 * In a more srs bsns forum I would just get "whoru?", "STFU SHITTER!", "GTFO!" and "CoP is bad on that bar." - 07:05, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
 * or not. I've visited a few and compared to these forums they are extremely serious. However I was more referring to srs forums in general rather than GW srs forums. God  box    11:06, 13 June 2008 (EDT)

You people have too much time on your hands to waste it on shit like this! :) Selket Shadowdancer 12:19, 11 July 2008 (EDT)

Wow...first off, thanks for the detailed reply. This is exactly what I was looking for. And second, I hope that I didn't allude to expressing the idea that I think I'm a great monk, I don't. I know people make the prot/heal build work, but I fail and didn't want to take the time to become profficient when I have something else that works...but, since I agree that my monking skills could improve, I'll buckle down and try.

GoL > WoH: Right now, it's best for me because, like you said, it's easier. I'm going to try to work on expanding my skills to be able to use more. Once I can get profficient at a 'better' bar, maybe then I can look back and give a more unbiased opinion.

Kinetic armor compared to Guardian: While it's true that it can be stripped and only used on one person, where its benefit seemed to shine, to me anyway, is that it takes absolutely no energy to keep up (and by that I mean using cleaning/healing skills keeps it up) while Guardian takes 5e every 6 or so sec. However, it definitely has its benefits and will certainly have a spot on my more trying build.

Smite hex: only taken because if its low recharge time. I looked at all the skills (granted only in M/E because of build) to find the quickest recharging hex removals that could also be used on me. But this will also be falling to the way-side.

So far, this is what my build will look like (this may change once I get in game and I'm not sure about secondary yet): [build prof=Monk/warrior prot=12+1+1 divine=10+1 tactics=8][protective spirit][reversal of fortune][restore condition][guardian][spirit bond][disciplined stance][remove hex][holy veil][/build]

Still need to do research on some good hex removals. May take one hex removal and maybe a sin skill like the one where for x seconds you have 75% chance to block while health < 50%. Anyway, any suggestions? <font color="Blue">Choytw Talk Debates 10:34, 13 June 2008 (EDT)


 * Oh, and I do hide energy. I had to switch to it to keep team alive, although I knew that it was a hopeless cause because if I continued to hide after showing, I'd take 1xx more damage.  Again, I think it was rare since it was a team with two mes's of the same build. [[Image:choytw_sig_1.JPG|20px]]<font color="Blue">Choytw Talk Debates  10:45, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Glad I took the time to write it out, seems you read it. Ok, Veil is actually way harder to use than a simple hex removal, but once you get the hang of it, it's far more effective. If you are preveiling, watch for potential strips and throw up a Reversal of Fortune on yourself before the strip hits (if you are quick you can use it as an interrupt, but remember mesmer fast casting). If you want a low recharge hex removal, Remove Hex seems to be often overlooked by people. It has no secondary effect, but is unlinked and recharges 4 seconds faster than any other hex removal, so it's actually pretty good. I don't recommend Shroud of Distress because you don't want to let yourself get that low on health anyway. I would recommend a warrior stance such as Disciplined Stance at moderate tactics (about 6-8) which gives you 3-4 seconds of blocking, but importantly is not an enchantment and can be activated when you are knocked down so should be used to block assassin spikes mid chain, block Crushing Blow if you miss the knockdown better, block the start of any warrior spike if you see the animation starting. I prefer Shield Bash, but it's a bit harder to use. If you get Diversion on you while your Veil is down, either wait it out, or consider feeding it a skill you don't really need at the time, for example your defensive stance if the enemy team doesn't have many physicals or any knockdowns. I prefer Spirit Bond over Protective Spirit, but I consider it personal preference, most people don't take a hard prot in arenas anyway, opting for more small prots like Guardian, Shield of Absorption and Shielding Hands. You may find Reversal of Fortune clunky with only one red bars go up skill, but it can be interchanged pretty freely with Patient Spirit, just make sure you don't use an enchanting set when you use Patient. Good luck. I stopped monking for a while, so I've somewhat forgot, curses. Relearning the hard way. - 10:53, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Ok, changed the build a bit adding that stance. In order to accomodate the 8 in tactics, removed the healing attribute and trying to use all prot skills...that may get reverted real quick  lol  [[Image:choytw_sig_1.JPG|20px]]<font color="Blue">Choytw Talk Debates  11:17, 13 June 2008 (EDT)
 * Spirit Bond + Protective Spirit is overkill, pick one. You can go that way, most people still fit the stats on a hybrid bar, they just drop prot to the 5 second break point for Guardian. I wouldn't recommend Restore Condition, it's actually a nice skill and reasonable practice for GvG/HA, but Zealous Benediction or even Shield of Deflection is better in arenas. - 11:20, 13 June 2008 (EDT)


 * I've since migrated over to a Healer's Boon Monk. Skills look something like:

Has worked very well for me so far. In AB, I drop Cure Hex and Res for Glyph of Lesser Energy and Protective Spirit. <font color="Blue">C hoyt  W  <font color="#9999ff"> [  <font color="#9966ff">P <font color="#6633ff">O <font color="#6600ff">N <font color="#3300ff">D   ]  12:43, 11 July 2008 (EDT)
 * You still need to learn how to use prot effectively I can see from glancing over that bar. You would then find that you don't need to take an energy management skill like Balthazar's Spirit. That being said, Healer's Boon monks don't usually take prot, but they don't usually get run in arenas either for that reason. If a hammer q-locks you you will slowly die over 9 seconds and there is nothing you can do to prevent it happening. - [[image:miserysig1.jpg]] isery   (TALK)  14:50, 11 July 2008 (EDT)
 * True that, but KD and severe hexing are about the only counters. I was taking guardian for a while, but was still on my ass more than I was up, since it didn't keep me from loosing, I ditched it so I could up the other atts.   15:21, 11 July 2008 (EDT)