Archive talk:Team - 7 Hero Fragway

general discussion
This build is especially deadly as I found out in eye of the north in hard mode. (https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mandragor) That gave me the idea to copy their builds into this 1 for heroes. Now we have way more condition spamming and triggering of Fragility and of course Fevered Dreams. Rickyf16aus (talk) 00:14, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

Jilonor (talk) 13:10, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Good update. tho I am not sure of the interest of since  does 2/3 of the conditions
 * seemed promising regarding fragway but it can't compare to
 * is also nice. check https://gwpvx.gamepedia.com/Build:Team_-_7_Jumper_Bomber

To me, the Me/N build is a test build. potentially solo spike build but energy management and spike length makes it hard to use on generic PVE. Might need optimization. Jilonor (talk) 12:38, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Jilonor (talk) 08:42, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I am wondering if is needed if player uses

Interesting idea with Pestilence and you're correct that it has the same function as Fevered Dreams. Only difference I can see is we lose out on the daze which is super strong in pve combined with hero mesmers to interrupt everything easily. Personally I think if we just put it on the hero in the situations the player build doesn't use it then it will probably be more effective than running without it. Also Arcane Conundrum probably deserves a place on the Illusion mesmer hero's bar for the amount of shutdown it does to casters. Rickyf16aus (talk) 10:06, 18 January 2018 (UTC) regarding Arcane Conundrum, Daze already does the same effect + it rupts casters upon application and from any attack Jilonor (talk) 10:37, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
 * can apply daze instantly : https://gwpvx.gamepedia.com/Build:Team_-_7_Hero_Fragway#Player_Rt.2FR_-_Pestilence

I've just thought of an interesting addition to the condition spamming and that's putting on the second necromancer hero instead of Discord. Since it has Draw Conditions and Foul Feast It would increase the condition spamming immensely. Rickyf16aus (talk) 06:22, 24 January 2018 (UTC) Problem is, to be effective, hero would need to go melee and it seems a bit too fragile as a N/Mo without defense. Also, I think we need a balance between condition spamming and pure damages. The team already has almost every possible conditions. applying already applied conditions won't trigger anything(except dark aura). this is mostly passive damages (if the foes don't use any conditions, this build would be pretty useless) We could use it as a variant but I would still keep the Discord build Jilonor (talk) 16:55, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

All right I agree there that Discord is more DPS than contagion. Thank you for keeping it as an optional variant. I've also added Necrosis to the Mesmer and Necromancer player bars for easy spammable DPS. Rickyf16aus (talk) 19:58, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

solo spike
[build prof=Mesmer/Necromancer FastCasting=11+1 IllusionMagic=12+1+3 BloodMagic=6][Fragility][Fevered Dreams]["You Move Like a Dwarf!"][Oppressive Gaze][Barbed Signet][Accumulated Pain][Hypochondria][Epidemic][/build] AoE damage output over 6s : 420 and -7 degen

dual spike
with this, you can spike almost everything. might need a tank to ball stuff up and a bonder with EoE to support the El/Me jumper [build prof=Mesmer/Elementalist FastCasting=12+1 IllusionMagic=12+1+3 FireMagic=3][Glyph of Immolation][Fragility][Fevered Dreams]["You Move Like a Dwarf!"][Cry of Pain][Accumulated Pain][Wandering Eye][Air of Superiority][/build] Output damages over 5s: 650 and -12 degen [build prof=Elementalist/Mesmer EnergyStorage=10+1 EarthMagic=12+1+3 FireMagic=8+1 ShadowArts=2][Glyph of Sacrifice][Meteor Shower][Ebon Escape][Shockwave][Aftershock][Crystal Wave][Hypochondria][Air of Superiority][/build] Output damages over 5s(relative to armor): 762 (would be around 550 for medium armor rating)

Very interesting numbers and the elementalist looks very effective with Crystal Wave clearing all the conditions on targets to trigger fragility again on reapplication. Personally I think it should be the main elementalist player build because Crystal Wave synergises better with the overall build of fragway. Also I noticed you've already added a variant hero with that build too. Perhaps we may consider putting Fevered Dreams on the Illusion hero's build instead of Ineptitude? Rickyf16aus (talk) 16:18, 15 January 2018 (UTC) it is true that shockwave ele is best for ele player regarding synergy but it lacks the catch. I mean you have to walk all the way to the target before starting to do damages. Depending on what you are facing, you could be dead before reaching target.it is fun and powerfull but it might not be so universal. this teambuild is optimized for mesmer player anyway. Jilonor (talk) 17:13, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Well I still prefer ineptitude for standard PVE. shockwave ele can be too fragile in HM. Also since heroes AI uses skills quite randomly you would have to micromanage both fragility and fevered dreams. It is not so casual and relaxing.

Could we drop hypochondria off the elementalist/memsmer for assassin secondary for a shadowstep like Death's Charge perhaps? Or is it too necessary for the build to function correctly to use that skill? Rickyf16aus (talk) 23:36, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

Maybe you are right. Hypochondria offers best synergy but it is also quite limiting for the builds and the micromanagement. Maybe it is best to use it for a human teambuild rather than heroes one Jilonor (talk) 08:49, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

some observations
in practice, this build covers most of the bases: dps, shutdown, heals/prots, hex and condition management, distracting meat shields. however, a couple areas for improvement (in descending importance): 1. dps on the derv is underwhelming, and ai skill mechanics are clunky and unreliable. 2. energy management on the illusion mesmer is mediocre and often bottoms out. 3. build-wide enchant removal is lacking. Juniper real (talk) 23:04, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
 * regarding dervish hero build, the main issue I saw was about Avatar of Balthazar: when it runs out, the hero won't recast it until another encounter starts. Doing so, he will be 2s late and would still have to run to the foes for contact. Micromanagement of avatar can improve that or might even consider using ranger variant even fire elementalist. though condition spamming and synergy of dervish seems far better than any of those variants.
 * For the illusion mesmer and nrg management, I assume you are talking about player build since illusion hero already have 2 inspiration magic skills with an ouptut of 35 nrg (not considering resurrection chant since it is rare used skill) and an input of 22. It is true the nrg cost of skills is heavy and you can't spam them as soon as they recharge. I usually run that OQZDAawDSTA3A2kLf2gxkIgEB . Most of the time I use the full spike only once in an encounter, then I just apply fragility on lefthovers and let heroes spam them with conditions. For the Fevered dreams build I don't see much issue, it is more about usage than optimisation. on the other end, the extend conditions build could use another nrg management skill I guess.
 * Regarding enchant removal, there are 2 in the teambuild, potentially 3 with player included. I guess we could add an optional suggestion for Virulence MM. vs . Not sure all situations call for it but can be an option. Jilonor (talk) 09:56, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
 * 1. I agree the derv hero build doesn’t have an obvious substitution. Most of the team works well enough together though that the front liner sticks out like a sore thumb. I’m inclined to swap for a caster hero, test and update recommendations. Maybe it’s true that derv is the best suited hero for that slot, but I doubt it. ::2. Oops I didn’t clarify above, I was referring to the hero illusion mes. It may have inspiration line energy support, but my observation was that the hero eats through its mana despite it, which is especially problematic for prolonged fights. This is true for both the FD/inept and resurrect variants. I didn’t toy with a solution yet but wanted to reproduce and characterize the problem first.
 * 3. Imo as long as meaningful enchant removal variants are listed in their respective hero builds, this deficit can be easily remedied for enchant-heavy zones. Juniper real (talk) 11:28, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Maybe OglAMIDcxRkXgOGFzCKM with signet of barbs over draw conditions on the plague necromancer? You'd lose crippled and the great short lasting condition spam of the dervish in general, but if the star burst happened to work decisively better in general... take dwayna's sorrow on the monk to benefit party-wide from godspeed. --Krschkr (talk) 13:51, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Dervish is pretty nice for conditions spamming and synergy with reap Impurities, but also, it can shutdown casters under daze condition. Elemental spells won't trigger interrupts through daze. Anyway Thunderclap ele seems like a good alternative. Updated Teambuild. Might update other roles after further testing Jilonor (talk) 13:25, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Archive:Team - 7 Hero Fragway versus 7 Hero Fevered Dreams
Seems like we have two condi builds at the moment, one with a pile of random condi builds at the bottom (this one) and, another with a dervish player and two copies of splinter weapon (7 Hero Fevered Dreams). I feel that there might be some mileage in comparing and pruning the teams. Particularly this build which seems to have some dubious condi builds at the bottom- seems like circumventing the vetting procedure imo. - Chieftain Alex (talk) 20:35, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Here, quickly, take this!
 * -- DANDY ^_^ -- 20:39, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
 * -- DANDY ^_^ -- 20:39, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
 * -- DANDY ^_^ -- 20:39, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Archive?
I'm taking a look at some of the lower rated 7 hero comps. I think a cleanup will help increase the quality of the builds on PvX. --Xanshiz (talk) 08:34, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree. Either archive the team, or merge with the Fevered Dreams team. ZStepmother (talk) 12:30, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Do we archive provisional vetted builds? Juniper real (talk) 01:11, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
 * If they are super outdated, why not? This team doesn't even run a ST rit, or a N/Rit healer, that alone makes it archive worthy. Either archive, or merge with the Fevered Dreams team and rewrite the page. ZStepmother (talk) 08:58, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
 * ^ Willarddog (talk) 17:57, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
 * agreed, was thinking more along the lines of delete vs archive. Idc either way, was just curious bc it’s provisional and didn’t necessarily ‘earn‘ the archive Juniper real (talk) 18:18, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
 * If this build were to be trash-voted I wouldn't want to archive it. But if you decide to archive it through the talk page I won't have much of a choice. --Krschkr (talk) 11:45, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't think this has really earned an archival. If people feel this build isn't worth storing in Build: they should vote accordingly imo. -Toraen (talk) 13:10, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Any more voters to test this? Else it's going to be archived soon. --Krschkr (talk) 00:10, 26 June 2020 (UTC)