Archive talk:Team - Spiritual Discord/Archive 1

why dual mm? --Anonimous. D: 13:01, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * More boom. --XArkantos

--Heroes manage Reclaim Essence well? Syphonus 18:11, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The second you aggro, heroes will put down spirits. The second all enemies are dead, heroes will use reclaim essence. The only problem they have is when they put down defensive spirits while not in combat, they will automatically use reclaim. Not really a problem, though. --XArkantos

I gave this setup a partial try at Wilds HM, with myself as the communing rit, Razah as channeling, and Xandra as resto rit 2. I took in Livia as well for the discord, but since that build worked fairly standard, I found no major issues with it. Instead I will comment on the rit builds. Heroes taken were Enchanter hench and Alesia.

1. Channeling rit. I found Razah was having energy problems later on into the battle. I changed Boon of Creation to Spirit Siphon. Weakness of Boon of Creation is its long cast time (waste first couple of seconds in battle casting it), the fact that it only gives energy during spirit creation, easily removable energy management, and long recharge. If it gets stripped at very beginning, your energy management is gone for nearly a minute. I favored Spirit Siphon because of the abundance of spirits, short cast time and spammability. About the only significant threat to this energy management is that it may get diverted. Also I am considering swapping painful bond for warmonger's weapon, as Razah seemed reluctant to cast the hex on mobs.

2. Communing rit. I played this build myself. With Boon of Creation up, energy was manageable. If that got stripped, or if I happened to cast Dissonance before Boon, my bluebar got raped. The only meaningful solution I could think of was to drop Dissonance. After considering a number of times the different options I could take in, I ended up with Mighty Was Vorizun or Vital Weapon. Signet of Binding could be of use in certain areas. Ranger secondary with Serpent's Quickness or Mesmer secondary with Ether Signet are on the to-be-tested list as well.

3. Resto Rit 1. I have not tested this build, so the following changes are just based on looking at the skills in the build. Boon of creation: I already mentioned downsides at Channeling Rit bit. In addition, assuming the rit uses Life and Rejuvenation once per battle, net energy gain from Boon of Creation is zero. Therefore I lowered spawning to 8 (plus rune) and increased channeling to 10 (plus rune), and switched Boon of Creation out for Spirit Siphon. With this many spirits around and new spirits being created each battle, there should be plenty for the channeling and resto 1 rit to share.

4. Resto Rit 2. This one is the one I had to completely rework. Boon of Creation was the first one to go, as explained with Channeling rit and especially the other resto rit. Also, spirit siphon at 3 (or 4) channeling results in a net energy gain of 2 at max. Basically Xandra spams this without getting anything meaningful back, and a few times being unlucky enough to hit the same spirit she already siphoned, and actually lost energy. Last, I felt that the elite did not fit in this build. Reclaim essence has a 30 sec recharge, equal to that of Recovery, and 15 seconds shorter than Recuperation. Neither spirit needs to be within earshot for them to work, meaning there will be no need to be able to recast them instantly after battle. If you aggro mobs right away after one group, you will still more than likely be close enough to the spirits for them to have effect. Also, I'm not certain I actually want these spirits to die right after battle, at the time you are still healing up any wounds left or recovering from any conditions still on you.

When reworking this build, the main issue I ran into at all times is energy management. As someone has stated in the discussion further below, a N/Rt healer with the same spirits and some heals would be a very viable option. Personally I would choose a N/Rt over a Rt unless the Rt carried spirit siphon. There's already two rits carrying the spell in this setup, not tested how much they would compete with each other over energy.

With a rit, however, I ended up throwing out boon of creation, spirit siphon and reclaim essence, and took in Offering of Spirit, Weapon of Warding and Spirit transfer instead. I also dropped spawning to 8 without runes, put the points into channeling instead. It's not a perfect bar but it's a start and seems to work. Another option would be to use Preservation as the elite, take Mesmer as secondary profession and take Ether Signet and/or Waste Not Want Not and/or Power Drain for energy management. Attribute point investment is needed of course, spawning --> inspiration.

My apologies for the wall of text, but I hope the comments are constructive enough. Overall the build seemed to work alright, based on what I could test with 4/6 heroes and no human partner. With the current bars, Discord setup with a dedicated rit spirit spammer works smoother, however meaningful tweaking of the bars could bring this setup to par with Discord. Dubh 188.123.27.192 16:20, September 22, 2009 (UTC)

Name
Call it "spiritway." "Arkenway" is way too self-serving, and since everyone and their mothers were making spirit heroes after the update....--User: Thc 17:31, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Moved to Archive:Team - Spiritual Discord. Best I could be bothered to come up with. Spaggage  talk  21:31, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, spiritual discord is a good name ;P --XArkantos

The Build Page says Great, but its not under Great
I can only find it under "All" and "Testing" but not in Great, even though the page says Great. I dont know how to fix this or else I would've.(pr0adam) 23:25, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

With a full minion team, how long does Union last? Like 2 seconds? 23:43, 22 June 2009
 * 45 hits IIRC. --71.229 23:48, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * So 2 secs of AoE on a 20 minion team >.>  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 23:54, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Lasts long enough to keep everyone at >90% while the enemies are getting killed. --XArkantos

Ok, I really don't understand how this got vetted this quickly in this poor of a condition (except for the Guru fanboys coming here and 5-5-Xing it). But it had some issues. Other than all that, this is kinda sloppy. Something I would suggest is trying to find room for WoW, Resilient Weapon or something. Weapon spells are still amazing in PvE and great on primary rits now. Oh, and one last thing. Most people are going to dislike this build because it requires Razah (tbh, I only have Razah on 4/8 chars) which is a pain in the ass. 00:00, 23 June 2009
 * 1) You had recuperation on the Resto 1, which doesn't make sense considering that it has a 45 second recharge and it would make more sense on the Reclaim Essence Resto 2 bar (so I moved it).
 * 2) Since I moved Recup, I moved Spirit Siphon to the Resto 2 bar as well and added 3 channeling to bar. SS is channeling skill and every attribute point helps.
 * 3) Spirit to Flesh makes more sense on the Resto 1 bar because if you're going to destroy a spirit, it might as well be Life or Rejuv (they have a lower recharge).
 * It was vetted quickly because the build works. Sure it's not the most polished build yet, but if it works when it's like this, it's obviously going to work when it's more polished. Union is up long enough to make a difference. I don't know what's wrong with your heroes, but my heroes use reclaim when the enemies are dead. I don't know why recup was on the first rit, but thanks for moving. As for spirit to flesh, it doesn't matter what bar it's on, because it can be used on any allied spirit. I doubt the hero AI is smart enough to use it on life/rejuv. This build is meant for HM vanquishes/missions/dungeons, and generally people doing those are going for titles. If they're going for the titles, they'll have beaten NF. If they beat NF, it takes all of 5 minutes to get Razah. I think it's pretty stupid that you rated it 2/2, seeing as the build works for what it's meant for, but whatever. --XArkantos
 * So KarateJesus, you rated the build low, which I can appreciate if you have valid points, but you really don't. Let's see what you wrote;

Union lasts a whole 5-6 seconds once you have a minion wall....which is retarded. After testing, heroes don't use Reclaim Essence very well at all. They will often kill spirits before needing to or not use it in time. If they don't recharge the spirits, you're fucked. Weapon spells are good on primary rits now. Something besides just splinter weapon would be nice. Spirit AI is terrible (especially on the new SoS). The SoS spirits have trouble targeting and spirits will commonly not attack called targets. The write-up is sloppy and the builds really aren't the best they could be.


 * Firstly, Union reducing damage for 5-6 seconds is enough time for us to kill at least 1 target, more often than not 2. Killing 2 vital targets in 5-6 seconds is extremely helpful, as it allows you to get your team into a strong position. Just because Union doesn't last 3 hours, doesn't mean it isn't useful. In zones where there are very little corpses, your entire argument is useless, as Union becomes very helpful.


 * Secondly, your testing must be wrong. Every single time we've run Reclaim Essence, the heroes have run it perfect. Either you have them set on a weird mode, or you're doing something wrong. This is no reason to rate the build down, because Reclaim is used exactly how we want it used.


 * Thirdly, weapon spells are good on primary rits? Oh okay, that's cool. Doesn't mean we need to invest in them. The way our build works, the Splinter is for extra damage as we are both Warriors. As stated, it can be changed. Once again, no reason to rate down, as we don't have much use for Weapon spells.


 * Fourthly, spirit AI is terrible? I don't know what you're talking about, as it seems pretty perfect for us. Call targets (Protip; Ctrl+Space) and they work great. Even if they DON'T all attack the same target, it's still putting excellent pressure on all foes. Once again, why did you vote down?


 * Finally, the write-up is sloppy and the builds aren't the best? I'm so sorry we didn't do it exactly how you seem to think it should be done in your mind. Our write up is still being tweaked, as is the build. The build currently is almost EXACTLY how it is meant to be, bar 2-3 skills that might change. It seems to me that you totally missed the point and voted the build down out of spite because you did it wrong. I see no valid reason why you should have voted it 2. Your points are all poor. -- F enix 01:48, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Discord vs Sab
For the first 2 slots. MM + SS vs 2 Discorders. IMO, 2 discorders isnt going to do anything since spirits never focus on one target and 200 damage spiking in a team build where damage isnt focused is silly. A standard mm and an ss can still minion bomb and can get more aoe damage with mark of pain and ss. And either way you want to go, switch the xinrae's healer to a n/rt and play around with the skills cuz energy iz good. ---  Ressmonkey  (talk) 00:35, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, if you ping your targets, Spirits will follow. That way you can have the spirits attacking the one target, as well as getting hit bu the ~200 Discord damage, plus the Spirit Rift damage. Even if you aren't getting all the spirits on the one target, the pressure is great on the entire team of foes, but while doing that you can spike with the 2x Discord, 1x Spirit Rift and your own skills. Bringing Sab-style heroes won't add anything useful to the build, whereas the way they are they allow for good spike damage if it is needed (it often is). -- F enix 01:28, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Spirits totally dont target who you call, just tested it... --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]] Ressmonkey  (talk) 02:15, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
 * When vanquishing Rhea's Crater yesterday, the spirits were following targets that both myself and Arkantos were pinging. Maybe it's inconsistent, but it seemed like it was working perfectly. If it doesn't, the spirits still cause team-wide pressure while you can use the bigger spike skills to take down important targets, and then pressure all the foes at once. Pretty basic PvP strategy works well.-- F enix 02:19, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Fenix, I'm sure your build works, but saying that spirits follow calling is like saying that 'The Great Destroyer' is actually hard. --84.30.68.180 09:06, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Reclaim Essence
Heroes apparently aren't any good with it. ــѕт. мıкε  00:51, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

why is there the att of restoration on the communing rit?


 * I have no idea why there has been that edit on the Reclaim Essence page, it works perfectly for us. If you aggro a group, the Rits will instantly cast their spirits. They will ONLY use Reclaim Essence the SECOND you kill the last foe. Which is perfect, because you get energy back, and recharged spirits. I don't know why it has been listed as a bug, I think the person who edited it is simply wrong.


 * As for Restoration on the Communing Rit, that was a mistake, as that rit used to have either Death Pact Signet or Flesh of my Flesh, hence the points. -- F enix 01:46, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Heroes used to use Reclaim Essence that way but they fixed it awhile ago, Guild Wars Wikia is just really slow to update these things. The only time they use it that way now is if they lay a spirit out of combat, in which case they basically don't lose or gain anything except energy so it's a non-issue. 71.113.160.235 06:45, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I checked it out with a couple of friends. First we ran the build (which seems fine, but not as good as discord), then we isolated each build and watched the heroes run it in and out of battle. We all noticed (separately, I might add) that Reclaim Essence is not used appropriately outside of battle and inside battle it's sporadic at best. It's not terrible, but it's not used well.
 * Also, I'd like to clarify what I meant earlier. When I said that Spirit AI isn't very good, what I meant was that they don't prioritize targets very well (and they sure as hell don't attack called targets). And they don't. We tested it some (again by isolating and bringing them together) and they just kind of attack w/e they want....or switch targets. It was surprised, tbh.
 * I rated low based on those things and the fact that this got vetted into "great" w/o being written appropriately or having even a decent amount of discussion. [[File:KJ badge sig.png]] 16:31, 23 June 2009
 * You know not every build has to be strictly spike or strictly pressure, right? The spirits aren't meant to spike down targets. They're supposed to pressure the enemy team while the discord necromancers and humans can spike a target down. The two work together, you know.
 * And the spirits were attacking called targets occasionally. It wasn't consistent, it's not reliable, but it happened. --XArkantos 04:01, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Discord
Why don't Discord and Pain Inverter go hand in hand in PVE? All the Discord builds I have seen don't have PI. 15:33, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe is recause they're Discord heroes and Pain Inverter is a pve skill! -- Frosty  Mc Admin  15:50, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
 * "recause" sounds like an Engrish word. Herro Frosty. [[File:KJ badge sig.png]] 16:31, 23 June 2009
 * Here I thought Frosty didn't know alot about PVE. I know that but why not on the main bar for the player?  Seems like there is a lot of hex dependant skills on the hero's that I think it deserves a mentioning that hexes and conditioning is NEEDED![[Image:Xtreme Hunter.png]] 17:17, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Because most people use an AP EVAS Spammer. So the hex condition is met (AP) and the condition is met with YMLaD! I guess you could use PI, but it means that you can't use EVAS....which sucks. [[File:KJ badge sig.png]] 18:32, 23 June 2009
 * Or because, if you need PI for a certain area, you just take it, it doesn't need to be on the page! -- Frosty  Mc Admin  01:35, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Votes removed by an admin/bcrat who no longer plays guild wars and is friends with the author. ups, wut does biased mean? -- 01:28, 24 June 2009
 * It means, you are wrong! -- Frosty  <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Mc Admin  01:31, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It means some people are better at Guild Wars than you, so learn to recognize when you're dealing with people with superior skill and listen more than talk. SMS created the PvE meta when most people were still sucking on the teat of Ursan and the old W/E obs flesh builds. They beat Mallyx while diehards like Karlos were still fucking around with old builds trying to glitch him instead of finding new ways to play.
 * Yeah, discord is nice. No, it is not as nice as this build. Yes, you would know this if you played. You jump to "biased admin" so quickly you don't stop to realize the vote removal is more of a "terrible user commenting on shit he's got no clue on" thing. Superior players playing the game > worse players sitting around theorycrafting. It has always been like that. That's how Guild Wars works. Now you can either deal with it or sit around bitching and moaning. It's up to you, but since you like being e-cool, I'd recommend the former. - Auron 01:54, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Auron, you always come across as being 90% asshole and 10% balls. Tbh, I'm always willing to hear what better players have to say. However, I tried out the builds and although they're not bad, they aren't amazing either. RE really isnt used well by heroes.....
 * Actually, nvm, there's no point in me defending what I've said or my vote because you'll just turn into a logic nazi and tear it apart. So, forget everything I just said, and continue to keep this in great. I should have known better than to vett a build lower than you did. My bad. --[[File:KJ badge sig.png]] <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">02:16, 24 June 2009
 * I must ask, but how do your heroes use it 'wrong'?--XArkantos 03:57, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Just drop Union, replace Reclaim Essence with Signet of Ghostly Might on the Communing Rit and some other Elite on the Resto. ــѕт. мıкε  02:18, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Shouldn't there be a few more hexes chucked in? I can only see 3 each with fairly long recharges. --Sam6555 02:29, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Part of the strength of the build comes from using Reclaim Essence. I still don't understand why people keep saying it gets used wrong, every time we have used it it has been done correctly. We have our heroes set to Defend, and do nothing else special. In practice, the heroes only cast spirits right as we aggro, and only cast Reclaim Essence right after the last monster dies. I've not seen them use it incorrectly before... So of course, we wouldn't want to change the elites based on a problem that we haven't experienced. The Signet of Ghostly Might suggestion is a good one, and has been mentioned by a few people. We are currently making Ritualists, and we will run Signet of Ghostly Might on one of them for extra damage and swap around some spirits. For the heroes though, the benefits of Reclaim are much stronger than the benefit of SoGM.


 * There are currently two 12 second recharge hexes. This we felt was enough, because we weren't taking into account any skills the human players would bring. -- F enix 02:34, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The Resto Rit doesn't benefit from Reclaim, and the Communing Rit uses it mostly for Union (which really doesn't work well in this build) and Disenchantment, which isn't a big deal, tbh. ــѕт.  мıкε  02:43, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually the Resto rit uses Reclaim for recharging Recovery and Recup, and for energy management, wheras the Communing Rit uses it for Dissonance, Anguish, Union (serves its purpose exactly as we intended - work for the first few seconds so we can get up spirits and take the brunt of the attack without dying), Pain and Disenchantment (great enchant removal, nice damage) recharging as well as energy management. Having Reclaim means that the second a battle has finished, the Rits have full energy and fully recharged spirits, which means they can instantly recast them if we aggro something new. -- F enix 03:30, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

tbh
After multiple badly played attempts to beat Vlox HM with Discordway, I figured I'd go ahead and try this out. It did rather well against the group of Skelk at the Falls entrance, but fared miserably against the Stone Summit. Worse than Discordway had, even. And as if that wasn't enough, it functioned moderately well in the Oola's Lab quest. However, again, Discordway outperformed it, there. The Reclaim Essence issue is still at hand - I noticed my heroes using it at various and often confusing times. Sometimes they'd use it with disregard as to how many spirits they had alive. Sometimes they'd use it if there were no spirits left alive. And sometimes, particularly on the 25e spirits, they'd use it immediately to refresh their blues bars. I'd imagine a higher energy pool via Radiant Insigs would help, but having to devote to Radiants over +AL or +health runes seems rather foolish. Spirits fail miserably at attacking called targets, as well. I'm not even sure where the notion that spirits would attack called targets came from. As allies, they're pretty bad at doing so. Not even the EVAS sin will attack the thing it's cast on at all times. However, I will note that running two Defensive Rit Lord spirit spammers and 4 Discord heroes proved rather useful in high-damage areas. If there's something I've missed, or something I'm doing terribly wrong, point it out, because I'd love for there to be something that rolls even better than Discord, but this certainly doesn't seem to do so in all of my testing, or even by the standards of logic regarding Guild Wars AI. I don't mean to attack anyone, but rather to ask for an explanation of some sort, since I'm certainly not reading through an entire Guru thread, and there isn't any hint in any of the high-rating votes. ··· Danny   Does   Drugs  04:44, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * tl;dr: testing says Discord is better. logic also seems to have a strong argument against this build. wtb explanation. ··· Danny   Does   Drugs  04:45, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Clearly you're doing it wrong. I have no idea why you and a couple others are failing at Reclaim, but it seems like you are. You DO realise that Reclaim will recharge ALL spirits even if it's used on a single spirit, it will recharge ALL of them and give 18 energy...And voting down because "Discordway works better"? Poor form Danny. Poor form. Back to PvE 101 for you methinks. -- F enix 04:54, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I really have idea idea why you and a few others' heroes are acting differently from ours. I've yet to see a hero with reclaim essence use in in mid battle or after using a 25e spirit. And sure, discordway may be better in most areas, but how is that a reason to rate this low? If this shouldn't be under great because discordway is better, then neither should sabway, racway, 600/Smite/QZ, and Great Dwarf Scythes, right? Discordway is better than all of them, too.--XArkantos 05:02, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Sabway is discordway for people who are too lazy to call targets, racway is for paragons who can't do discordway, 600/smite/QZ is a farming build? and great dwarf scythes is for an all player based team (or mostly player based). Drahgal Meir 05:08, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Paragons can run discordway, the 600/smite/QZ is used for vanquishing/dungeons/UW/FoW according to the page, but fair enough for the scythe build. All are still inferior to discordway, so since they're inferior they shouldn't be rated as good, according to the logic that this build should get low ratings for being inferious. --XArkantos 05:19, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Irrelevant. This is an alternative to Discord as well, so it should also be given the correct rating. That, or the other builds should also be voted down without reason. Oh wait, sorry, for not being as good as Discord.
 * As I said above, by your logic none of them should be rated as good as discordway because they're inferior. The only thing this build and discordway have in common is that they both have discord necros. Apart from that, they're nothing alike. --XArkantos 05:19, 24 June 2009 (UTC)


 * It's not as though you have a valid point though Danny, you already forfeited your right to comment when you voted the build down without actually playing it. Clearly you're just here to slurp on KarateJesus' sensitive bits, as opposed to actually adding anything of value to the build. -- F enix 05:11, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * tbh, if I had a link to Sabway, I'd probably vote it down since it isn't as good as Discordway anymore. That's how voting works. Things that don't work as well as other things don't get vetted into the same rating. I'll try it out again, since I don't have shit else to do, but so far, with heroes set to Defend, Aggressive, or Avoid, they seem to use Reclaim at awkward times. The best results I've had were when I set them to Aggressive and they seemed to worry more about killing things than how high their blue bars were. Also, avoid attacking someone trying to get facts, or I'll simply start shitting all over this build. If anyone feels like approaching this matter civilly and/or clarifying how spirits attack called targets, that'd be great. If not, I can drama it up like a high school cheerleader. ··· Danny   Does   Drugs  05:18, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Shitting all over the build? That's funny, considering the comments on guru about it. You seem to be the only one missing the point. Try pinging targets, BOTH humans. They should attack. As for Reclaim, there is no reason why it should do what you said it does. You're obviously doing something wrong. Read the guru thread and you'll see that people are succeeding at the build quite easily. Oh, and fyi, I wasn't attacking you. I was simply stating that your opinion is worth about as much as dirt, seeing as how you didn't actually PLAY the build until now. -- F enix 05:24, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Danny, then discordway should be in its own category, or every other h/h build under great should be moved to good. If you did the latter, then every build in good would be inferior to the 3 that were moved there, so they'll have to go down. See how that logic fails? This build may not be as effective as discordway, but that doesn't make the build any less good and effective. Same goes with racway, sabway and the 600/smite/QZ build. You said it sucked even before you tried it, which means the only reason you said it was because karate jesus did. That's like me having no clue about basketball and saying the lakers suck because some other guy said it.--XArkantos 05:29, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, Fenix, the only naughty bits around here that I slurp on are Frosty's. Sometimes Misery's, but his timezone is way different than mine so it strains our relationship. Stop being an autist. I expected a lot more out of someone Auron stood up for. ··· Danny   Does   Drugs  05:39, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * That being said, the arguments you're currently making seem to fall under the same arguments that scrubs make when describing why their incredible E/W Shock Axe bar is as good as a W/E Shock Axe bar. We all know which is better at getting the job done. One may do the job just about as effectively, but is it as good? No. As for calling with two people, go try it in the Isle of the Nameless. I've given it multiple shots, with no results, other than that they do seem to spike the nearest thing, provided they're all in the same location. If making sure your heroes are laying the spirits in close proximity to one another and not bothering to target anything that isn't on "c" is part of the methodology, that might be worth noting. ··· Danny   Does   Drugs  05:39, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The difference is a E/W shock axe is terible, this build is not. And again, if this build doesn't deserve to be in great, then neither should the other h/h builds. Stop singling this build out, all 4 of the builds I'm talking about are h/h in great. Your logic is horrible. I'm sorry that your heroes must be dumb or something, because from what you're saying, they're running very differently from mine. --XArkantos 05:46, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

(reset indent) As for my previous evaluation of the build - having tried similar setups to no avail, I didn't see why spirits would suddenly start following targets or why Reclaim Essence would suddenly work without error. Testing isn't always necessary, but seeing as everyone else around here seems to think it's so great (most likely without having tested it), I thought I'd give it a shot, especially since Discord was letting me down. ··· Danny   Does   Drugs  05:41, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * As I said before, it was very far from being consistent and reliable, but it very much seemed like they were. Maybe it was a coincidence that they were all already attacking the target I called. Sure, some people probably haven't tried it and are saying it's great, but the people who have tried it are all saying it works perfectly. I know people who have flawlessly done HM missions and vanquishes, and I'm constantly getting PM's in game and even on guru saying that the build is very effective. I dunno, I guess we all have better AI than you, or your heroes live up to your name. --XArkantos 05:47, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * In the long run, my vote won't matter. Everyone has a stiff one for spirits after the buff, and I guess you can't really blame them. Fact is, this isn't a ridiculously overpowered build, in terms of overpowered PvE builds at least. Another fact: PvE is the same thing every time, so what works great will continue to work great, and what works not-as-great will continue to work not-as-great. If it were up to me and a few other users, PvX wouldn't have Good or Other PvE sections, and we'd only bother keeping the top-of-the-line builds on file. Different opinion is different. :< ··· Danny   Does   Drugs  06:00, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * In terms of PvE h/h builds, I'd say this is pretty overpowered. From the times I've gotten in missions and in the times that others have gotten in missions, I don't see sabway/discordway doing it significantly faster. And I certainly can't see other builds doing it as fast. So when the current overpowered h/h builds can't do it significantly faster, and the other builds can't do it as fast, then I'd say that leaves this build under overpowered. --XArkantos 04:27, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Tbh, Danny, it doesn't matter what we say. Fenix and Arkantos will get the votes they want as soon as Auron comes by to lolvotewipe again. [[File:KJ badge sig.png]] <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">15:53, 24 June 2009
 * I could actually care less about the votes. Shitters fail at running this build, so it's not good by pvx standards. I know it works, people who've played it know it works (you already rated it low and discussed it without playing, so I refuse to believe that you've yet to play it), so whatever. I'm sorry that you and danny fail at simple things. --XArkantos 19:11, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Danny and I have both tested it (and I did with friends) and we came up with similar results. Now, you can either get pissy and go on a "PvXers suck" rampage, or you can do what you should have done 2 days ago and just explain why it may not be working appropriately for other people. All builds have good things about them and poor things about them. Pretending like the poor sides don't exist is ignorant. Just be fair to the build and pull your e-peen out of your ass long enough to respond to serious questions. [[File:KJ badge sig.png]] <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">19:15, 24 June 2009
 * I'm not acting like the poor sides don't exist, I'm acting like the 'problems' are nonexistent to me and many others. How do you want me to answer your questions when I'm not having these problems? I don't program the AI, I can't tell you shit. The only thing I can say is you must be doing something wrong, because I've never had the problems you're talking about. What else can I say to problems I'm not having? The build works perfectly for me. I've tested it (and I have with friends, and people I've never talked to) and we didn't come up with the problems you're having. So, if they work for me and not for you, then the only logical answer is you're doing something wrong, unless for some strange reason your AI is different from mine. And please, get off my e-peens tip. I'm sure you love discussing it, but it has nothing to do with anything here. --XArkantos 04:27, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

AI
Signet of Spirits(because of the targetting issue) and Reclaim Essence(being used randomly isn't being used by heroes to their fullest potential, honestly speaking. <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">uɐɟ <font color="#FDD017" face="blackadder itc">ɐʞıd  <font color="#FF0033">o <font color="#000000">^_^ <font color="#FF0033">o  <font color="#996600">¸ <font color="#FFCC00">« <font color="#FFCC00">` 06:29, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * doesn't really matter tbh, they still use it good enough to roll true every single area:p might want to micro it if you want to win a couple of minutes per map, or just find a better variant Close Impact 11:17, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

votes
some of them are complaining about reclaim essence and shit, but it really doesn't matter if the AI doesn't use it as they should, because it still steamrolls everything, micro it if you really want toClose Impact 11:20, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Microing makes it worse than discordway/sabway/pretty much any hero-way, which would warrant a lower vote. We have real questions about why this doesn't work well when we test it, Impact, and so far all we've gotten is "well, we're better than you at GW, so you're wrong" or "you must be doing it wrong". Tbh, I'm tired of the bullshit. [[File:KJ badge sig.png]] <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">15:51, 24 June 2009
 * Not so nice when you get served by your own words now is it KJ!!![[Image:Xtreme Hunter.png]] 16:00, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * What does that have to do with anything? Quit trolling. [[File:KJ badge sig.png]] <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">16:10, 24 June 2009
 * KJ, when your heroes are apparently acting differently from my heroes, then it's obvious that you're doing something wrong. My hero AI isn't unique, neither is yours. My heroes use reclaim fine. Fenix's heroes use reclaim fine. Many others have said that their heroes use reclaim fine. The only people who say that they don't use it fine are you, danny, and a couple of random people on pvx. --XArkantos 19:15, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * ^ Read my response above. [[File:KJ badge sig.png]] <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">19:17, 24 June 2009
 * KJ...what type of char are you using to test this?  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 19:20, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * My warrior, necro, and my rit. My war was running a WE scythe build with a friend using a derv. My necro ran a AP EVAS spammer with another necro friend running the same. My rit ran several different builds and so did my other friend who ran it with me. I isolated the builds in both HM and NM and then brought them back together. All the tests basically showed the same thing. I spent the most time testing with my necro as an AP EVAS spammer since that's the recommended build with discordway. [[File:KJ badge sig.png]] <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">19:22, 24 June 2009
 * Tbh, I think something like an SS would work better for this. With only 2 discord's, you can't take anything you want down instantly. I also believe that the profession/weapon used could make a difference in AI.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 19:34, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I like the idea of using a SS and you could be right about the weapon affecting the AI; however, some of my rits have staffs and some of them have caster spears and offhands, but I'll mess with it later and see what happens. [[File:KJ badge sig.png]] <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">19:38, 24 June 2009
 * Try switching the weapons on yourself and the rits with reclaim. I'm not sure if it matters on yourself, but heroes do act differently when you have a staff compared to a melee weapon on yourself.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 19:43, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * See my above section (Discord vs Sab). The author told me i was wrong.  I dont really agree though. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]]<font color="Blue"> Ressmonkey  (talk) 19:56, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The author(s) is (are) wrong about spirits following calls. The best you can get would be following "c". I didn't think of the weapon issue, though. My Rit heroes, iirc, are only equipped with offhands, no weapons of any kind. (If you're curious, I did it to prevent them from triggering on-attack hexes.) I'll try giving them a variety of different weapons when I get home. If Ark or Fenix would like to let us know what weapons they're using, particularly on the Reclaim rits, that might be extremely helpful. I could see my own vote boosted by a few points once this issue is resolved. ··· Danny   Does   Drugs  20:04, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Hell, I'll 5-5-X it if we can figure it out. [[File:KJ badge sig.png]] <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">20:44, 24 June 2009
 * I use the Hourglass Staff bonus item on every one of my caster heroes. Not sure what Arkantos uses. I didn't disable any skills on the bar, I had my heroes set to Defend. The Resto hero will ALWAYS cast Life whenever it can, which is normal. The other heroes will not cast any spirits until aggro. When we are about to aggro, we don't start casting spirits. We flag the heroes, and pull things to us (or, just run in). The second we engage in combat, the Ritualists cast their spirits. We get approx 4-5 seconds of 'spirit casting time' before they are all down, at which point the Rit with Painful Bond will cast it on any foes that are somewhat grouped. Most spirits APPEARED to be following targets (testing yesterday in Shing Jea with my new rit, it seemed that Signet of Spirits...spirits would follow my calls, but Bloodsong would not). As soon as the final foe was killed, all the rits would instantly cast Reclaim Essence, and the Resto rit would re-cast Life (can be fixed by disabling, if needed). As you can see, we did nothing special. I'm assuming that people are having problems with spirits because they are pre-casting them before aggro, but since we didn't actually DO that, no idea if Rits will Reclaim the spirits instantly. -- F enix 23:21, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it's the pre casting thats causing the problems. If you cast the spirits with no foes around, heroes see them as unnecessary and use reclaim on them.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 23:28, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I also use the hourglass staff on my heroes. As for the hero AI, this is what they seem to do: they will not use reclaim until there are no enemies left. So, if you micro the spirits before engaging a mob, that will most likely be the cause of them using it at a bad time. The only problem is a hero with life and reclaim on the same bar. The hero will always use life, regardless of where you are. So he'll lay it down when there isn't an enemy around. Since there are no enemies around, he will go ahead and use reclaim. But none of our reclaim heroes have life on their bars, so this doesn't matter. --XArkantos 03:14, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

tl;dr. If they use reclain essence at stupid times, just disable it and use it once you have wiped a mob... -- <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Frosty  <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Mc Admin  23:50, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Or that.  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 23:56, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Microing in pve? Blasphemery. --- [[Image:Monk-icon-Ressmonkey.JPG|15px]]<font color="Blue"> Ressmonkey  (talk) 00:04, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Tis build owns for me. Yesterday i vanquished Unwaking Waters with a guildie and we aggroed Kunvie's group plus like 3 other groups - saltsprays, fish and oni. Well, no1 died and we didn't really feel the overaggro nor hardmode. discord < this = sabway imo 83.20.130.195 12:00, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I have not been using life and reclaim on the same bar and I haven't been forcing the heroes to cast the spirits outside of battle (I did test this though, and they use reclaim right after they cast, you're right). I didn't have time to get on yesterday, but I might today and I'll mess with it then. If it is still an issue, maybe we should add a note about needing to micro RE at times. [[File:KJ badge sig.png]] <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">15:31, 25 June 2009

AI Issues
The issue seems to lie in both how much energy a hero has and what weapon a hero is wielding. Heroes will occasionally use Reclaim Essence to refill their blue bar when it drops below ten, which was likely the cause of what I was seeing. It also seems that heroes perform much better when using a weapon with which they can attack from range. When equipped with only an offhand, they would kite awkwardly. When equipped with a staff, they would auto-attack, but kite when threatened. When equipped with a spear, they would auto-attack, but only kite when attacked by melee or AoE spell damage. When equipped with an a sword, they would attack in melee and kite only when health reached dangerous levels. When equipped with a wand and offhand, they acted similar to holding a staff but appeared to favor spell usage slightly, including the occasional misuse of Recalim Essence. Taking all of this into consideration, and having equipped my heroes with Hourglass Staves in favor of the Spawning Power offhands they previously wielded, they seem to be performing much better, although I've yet to see any sign of spirits follow called targets. The only exception to this may be SoS's spirits, but as they glitched quite often, it was difficult to gauge. I'd imagine their ability to follow calls has to do with the AI glitch they currently suffer. Taking all of this into consideration, I'd strongly suggest changing the equipment suggestions to staves. I would also suggest making the Xinrae rit a Necrit for stronger energy management, since Spawning Power isn't utilized nearly as much as it might be, and the energy gain from Soul Reaping would be rather beneficial. I would also strongly suggest fitting Shelter on a bar, as it alone can often determine a battle. Displacement would also be handy. Discordway is still better when it comes to brute efficiency, but this appears to be extremely good at maintaining a superb level of party defense. Sorry for the wall of text, but I thought it'd be worth sharing.

tl;dr Use Staves, not offhands, and make sure your heroes have enough energy to cast the majority of their spirits, or they will likely use Reclaim Essence to pump up their blue bars. The Xinrae should be an N/Rt, and Shelter and Displacement would be handy if possible to fit them in. Also, SoS's spirits appear to follow calls, which is likely related to their AI glitch; otherwise, spirits do not follow calls. ··· Danny   Does   Drugs  18:42, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
 * So Life saves the day with his brave ideas!  Life [[Image:WikiLOD7.gif]] 23:42, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

So...
Why exactly isn't this trashed? I ran this through some Dungeons with my riend who just happened to pop back to gw from aion beta testing and after each attempt had failed miserebly. First of all, just by looking at this build I dont understand why it has two completely identical minion bombers, while I do find dual Protective Spirit and Aegis chains helpful, dual Death Nova has lost me completely... One hero will cope spreading it all over the minion wall just fine. Heroes always ran into problems with Reclaim Essence destroying 25e spirits shrtly after creating them, quite annoying when spirits your build relies on completely get destroyed in the middle of the battle. Heroes do very badly with Boon of Creation, they never cast it before starting to cast spirits. I also felt that it generally lacked good damage output because spirits simply could't focus on one target. --Anonimous. D: 23:19, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
 * read up a section about Reclaim Essence. the rest of it is true, but spirit walls are pretty good support as long as you're flag/pulling for every mob. it isn't nearly as efficient as discordway, but we've covered that at least 3 times so far. it's basically gonna stay in good, from what I can tell. ··· [[File:Danny-sig.png]] 15:38, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * boon of creation sucks in hm--Relyk 00:48, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * ...noooooo...Energy = Good.-- Ikimono "My beard is thick." [[Image:Monk-Paragon-icon.png|24px]] 03:35, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Relyk was probably thinking of Explosive Growth I'm guessing. Spaggage  talk  09:50, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It hasn't been trashed because it is a strong build. There are two identical necro bars because they work well. Twice as many minions, so 2 copies of Death Nova. One necro casting death nova on TWENTY minions is silly. Rotting Flesh AND Putrid Bile for degen/damage. 2x PS for better prot cover, 2x aegis for aegis chain. Reclaim issue was addressed - use a staff on heroes. Boon of Creation works fine for me, maybe turn it off and manually click it. This build has between 250 and 300 dps, so that spread between a couple of foes is fine with me. -- F enix 23:19, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Try again with "TWENTY" minions. --- <font color="Blue"> Ressmonkey  (talk) 01:50, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Uh...what? Each necro has 10 minions. Why, you don't use runes properly? -- F enix 06:23, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * 14 death magic ?= 10 minions. --- <font color="Blue"> Ressmonkey  (talk) 14:28, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * ^ ups. [[File:KJ badge sig.png]] <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">16:51, 9 July 2009
 * 16 Death gives 10 minions, 14 and 15 Death gives 9. -- F enix 22:41, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

on a completely unrelated note, running through HM dungeons with 3 copies of Flesh Golem is pretty awesome. ··· 18:14, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * penis. i ran through pve with discord and henchies, why all the fuss with spirits? flow chart:


 * protip dickwad, you can't run 3 rits because there's only 2.
 * Protip, sign your comments, and 2 players = 4 rits. ▲ʞsıɯoʇɐ▲ 12:56, May 7, 2010 (UTC)

Fixing this shit.
1. Run the SoGM rit thats used in Spiritway over this ugly soul twister
 * 2. Use Reverse hex or convert hexes on the necros because lolnrg and they scale with protection prayers
 * 3. Get rid of agony on the channeling bar and get rid of Spirit Rift because its pve and in pve all the monsters run around. Spirit Siphon on that bar over the ugly ugly ugly boon of creation and run Resto
 * 4. The second resto rit is bad, the first doesnt got energy. Use a Rt/Me Tease resto or run N/Rt AND GET RID OF BOON OF CREATION
 * 5. After youve done all this properly, ask for a vote wipe and gogo 5-5-x--GWPirate 10:55, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

Or allow me to do it?--GWPirate 16:01, June 26, 2010 (UTC)