Build talk:Team - DoA Frostway

Before Making A build Similar to Glaiveway Post Build Suggestions on there discussion page. This Does Look Great Just 1 thing Why bother take imbagon if Nearly the entire party (except sos) Can take Mantra of frost I know Armor reductions but nearly 50% of the dmg is gone now....--Jpuzimaki13 01:36, July 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * I did post some suggestion, never got a response. Instead, they posted 10 nearly useless build for Alt classes. Problem with no imba is that he does most of the dmg reduction. 35% from TNTF and i havent done the calc, but 60+100 armor is like 60-70% reduction. ~70-80%. take another 45-50% off that = 85-90% reduction. union adds a bit more but not much. also, no mantra on ST would mean 1-hit death. especially when enraged. would have to be a R/Me. but still.. 85%+ reduction beats the 45%+ you get from mantra alone. Gesun Dheit 02:18, July 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * Another way to think about it is do you want to take 10% dmg from spikes or 50%? 50% = 5 times as much. thats alot if you think about it that way. Gesun Dheit 04:46, July 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * "+100 armor will reduce damage taken by 82.3%." Read the wiki. Its going to vary a little bit if you're dealing with higher AL targets than it was calculated for initially, but the percent will only go down from there. darkoak 14:59, July 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * yea. i used to generalize it by saying 60+60 armor will reduce by 50% so i ballparked it, but the formula is actually a bit dif. by my calc would have been 62.5%. but i also use armor mods so itll reduce it a bit. using the wiki figure of 82%, another ~50 from mantra = 91%, another 35% from tntf = 94%, and union 15 damage, it reduces it to almost nothing. 95%-100% reduction anyways. you know, sometimes i dont really care for exact figure. 5% difference to me isnt much, and an approxiamtion is good enough. hehe Gesun Dheit 02:22, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * You could leave out TNTF on the paragon as it makes a very small difference, only a few percentages, and isn't even maintainable. You could take Brace Yourself!: anti-knockdown protection and armor-ignoring damage on frontliners or Spear of Fury for more adrenaline buffing. Personally I always take Stand Your Ground! for an maintainable extra +24 armor on the paragon. When using Centurions, a +10 vs demons/cold shield, a +7 vs elemental damage spear (or +5 vs all) and cons (+10), the paragon will have 80+10+16+10+7+24+10=157 armor which will make him less of a priority target (normally, a paragon will be targeted most because of his lowest armor when SY) which will relieve some hex pressure and healing-pressure off the monks. And it serves as a backup if SY is down in a pug where hexes arent blind aren't removed fast enough or the imbagon is inexperienced or under the 50% miss chance effect of HM gloom.
 * I feel that TNTF still helps, even if maybe not too much, but still important in complicated places like with The Fury or in over aggros in city or foundry. Much better than "To the limit" I think it is the "Signet of aggression" which allows to build up adrenaline between fights to yell SY at the very beggining of each fight, also during the fight with one signet activation and two spear throw you get enough adrenaline to spam SY every 4-5 secs, and in my case with a 6 seconds SY it is really easy to maintain it. Leaving the "Lightbringer signet" for cases of energy need like in city or with Mallyx if the door closes.--Kilikan 04:58, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

Monks
I run HM with this team setup all the time, and I'm glad somebody posted, but I'd like to make 2 suggestions. 1 is that both the monks choose UA, instead of one with HB. then give both monks Arcane Echo to allow them to Echo Seed of Life. This allows both monks to chain 3 seeds of life each, providing massive healing that is almost impossible to spike through.

I'd also like to point out that the Panic Mesmer is worth the spot taken. Crowd control becomes very doable, and allows the DwG's time to kill everything without getting nuked themselves


 * Why cant the monks take mantra then if both can be mesme??--66.69.115.252 16:00, July 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * A. the reason for hb monk is faster spike heals and faster cast of Heal Party which is required in some cases. B. enchants dont always work. in foundry for example they are quickly removed. selfless spirit for example is a BAD skill to take. any build that depends heavily on enchants won't do well in doa. arcane echo takes 15 energy, which can be a real drag. it is also interruptible, so only really effective at the start of battle (also because of energy cost). it would make more sense to bring AoS. but the problem is elsewhere. there are simply no slots to spare on the monks. they are loaded as is. no room for condition removal. you need 3 hex removals, 2 heals, e-management, heal party, seed, etc.. if you use a skill slot, you either have 1 heal per monk, no hex removal, etc.. won't work. i tried a glyph/seed monk (glyph of renewal), which can chain seed of life indefinately. it just doesn't cut it. Gesun Dheit 02:22, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * i've been looking into the panic mez, but from my experience so far, the run is faster with 4 dwg, as long as the imba and monks don't suck. Gesun Dheit 02:22, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * hmm, also the only real party-wide damage like that occurs in foundry, where seed isnt as effective due to removals. heal party in foundry is usually enough, with some additional heals. also, someone mention Mantra of Frost on monks on the glaiveway thread i think, there just isn't a slot on the monks, unless you can find someother place to slot hex removal, which implies a Panic mez, which really isnt required from my experience, but that remains to be seen. Gesun Dheit 02:51, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

Why Deny Hexes on the UA monk? What divine favor skill should be on recharge, there is none on the bar other than UA and I'm sure deny doesn't affect itself. 17:19, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * because with deny, you have the option of removing 1 for 5e, or casting UA and removing 1+1=2 for 10e. convert hexes is a bit too energy intensive, and you need 3 individual hex removals (1 on hb, 2 on ua). honestly? i don't know why i even answer this. i feel.. robbed to put it mildly. Gesun Dheit 00:00, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

Panic
Can the Panic Mes mer take hex eater signet for party wide hex removal and energy management? Also try and put frustartion on the build can prove useful.--Jpuzimaki13 15:18, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * hex eater is only adjacent. almost never all all the dwgs adjacent. you woul dneed the dwgs to huddle in a cooredinated fashion. just not worth the effort. might as well bring hexbreaker aria on imba. Gesun Dheit 00:00, July 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * hex eater os there as additional support Incase of multiple hexes on imbagon or other members two hexes alone wont removal skills from both monks vocal minority stacked at the bottom of two other hexes. the aoe hex removal is just a bonus incase of adjecent allies. Frustration is still very usefull for the panics build.--Jpuzimaki13 01:43, July 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * dude, stop trolling. hex eater doesnt remove multiple hexes, it removes 1 hex from multiple allies. so imba would have to huddle with dwgs? i seriously hope not.. Gesun Dheit 21:09, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

Winter vs. Rage Titans
1 or 2 Shockwaves or something else and winters die. whit these builds its gonna hard in foundry. :S   14:59, July 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * winter shouldnt be anywhere near a shockwave. and if it were even 'nearby' 1 hit would do it. keep winter far from battle and dont use 'summon spirits' near the enemy. just keep recasting shelter and union if needed 'within earshot' of the enemy. which is much further than even 'in the area'. itsjust minimally larger than the agro circle. winter doesnt need to be in earshot. just leave it where it is, it can be almost an entire compass away. and do not use summon spirits in battle unless you are a bit away from the enemy. i ST this all the time. usually that's not the problem. it's poor imbas that dont run TTL, LBS, and SOG. they cant maintain adrena especially in city, and sometimes gloom bcs of the 50% chance to fail to hit in HM. and ST has to keep spamming Shelter so when SY goes down, you don ttake more than 10% damage. that is the biggest problem IMHO. instead the imbas bring shit like 'stand your ground' and TOF/BF.. tof/bf are overkill, you don tneed that much reduction. you need adrenaline.. i also ua/hb and dwg this. only char i dont have is an imba and still i think i understand the problem than (from my experience) 98% of paragons. Gesun Dheit 21:09, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

Optional Panic Support Build: Testing
need some ideas for the panic bar. Gesun Dheit 19:36, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

shrugs. trying to figure out a way to remove ST from the build. if imba can be kept clean and maintain adrena then ST is pretty much useless. Gesun Dheit 21:27, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

greater conflagration and winter?
Why don't you use greater conflagration, it would make all damage pretty much into cold damage which would be greatly reduced by mantra of frost?
 * bcs Soul Twisting is required still, GCONF is an elite.and having 2 spirits that can be killed easily seems like fail to me. Gesun Dheit 16:33, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

I find the utility rt could be changed, cause then the SoS could have more points in other things. and you could also place (just suggestions, not working ideas) EOE, GCONF, and winter though the dmg of this utility person would be reduced the overall dmg would go way down. And if your spirits die, then you are fail. Spirits should be placed out of combat and never involved.
 * Please sign your comments. Also, there's already a team build that can do DoA that uses Conflag - Blushway. Its interesting, but it works if you've got a buddy with heroes. Like that build, if you used conflag instead of ST you would drop winter entirely and swap all mantras to fire. You'd have to completely redo the ST's slot though, because he's pretty useless without ST as his elite, and it doesn't look like its really worthwhile for this team setup. darkoak 13:55, September 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * First off I want to point out that darkoak and several of the people I've talked to have gotten this wrong: you would not be using mantra of fire. When combined with winter, all physical damage then becomes cold damage.


 * My guildies and I have been running a GC ranger in place of the ST and I must say... it is FAR superior to the standard build. You don't get union or shelter, but does it really matter? I've never seen union make much of a difference anywhere, playing as a monk. Shelter is typically only useful for covering a bad paragon. Even then... do the math. Shelter will live for 8(?) hits after cons. Maybe 10 if you heal it. With a 15s cooldown on ST, that's not making much of a difference. With a decent paragon, I've only really noticed one area that shelter would be useful: the mesmer stygian lord (mistrust). And when was the last time you saw anyone fail there anyway?


 * So you're losing some, but not much. What do you gain? All the physical damage is now being reduced by your mantra. That turns into a LOT of reduced damage. It also makes energy management incredibly easy. We do City in HM just as fast as NM because you simply never run out of energy. In veil where winter is completely useless against the giant groups of warriors? Cakewalk. More energy=more damage. You also gain a TON of damage output because your EoE's now doing 55 damage each (no need to spread your attributes). If becomes a game of trying to make sure everything is partially damaged because the EoE bomb is so devastating.


 * /Greater Conflagration


 * TL;DR version: Union's pointless, Shelter's only needed with a bad imba (or, rarely, panic). Greater conflag gives almost infinite energy to DwGs, gives a very large overall damage reduction, and overcharges your EoE. --Atanna Charta 01:00, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

sugestion
I prefer a panic mesmer over a dwg. It works really well, if your team knows how to ball. And i personaly like taking EoE on the ST. take: / Soul Twisting. (6wildernis, 6 beast, spawning so that ST works for 3 binding rituals, rest comuning). i prefer signet of creation over lightbringer signet so that you can keep your energy up while being far away from anny enemy (but stil have the spirits in effect rang of your team, normaly you sould always be far away from danger). And dont underestimate a 6atribute EoE it stil does massif dmg in big groups and will kill run-away's that took only a few DWG's, but keep in mind that it can also damage the team when some guys die. And use summon spirit to move the spirits in range, out of danger and to heal shelter and union when they lose a lot of health quickly (so that you need to use more then 3 spirits in ST recharge). i would sugest this ST build over the posted one. i tested both and really prefer this one 94.226.130.18 20:02, July 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * A. using summon to heal the spirits uses more energy than just recasting them. (spam mainly shelter, thats important during large spikes, can maintain it indefinately. just keep recasting befor it dies - sometimes this can happen in 2 seconds or less - so you MUST keep recasting shelter ABOVE all, or the monks = dead. union is just at the start of battle and after it settled down a bit to take some burden off the monks.
 * B. Signet of Creation interferes with spamming shelter when required because you gotta cast it often. shelter down at bad time = fail.
 * C. no condition removal for the imba, forcing you to work ALOT harder than you need to in foundry. sometimes this can lead to fail if blind isnt removed.
 * D. EoE is ok, but it really doesnt add that much if you have experienced spikers. really not needed with 4 dwg.
 * E. winter should not be near the battle, the other spirits you can cast near the battle. they very rarely get targetted, and you just recast them. thats what soul twisting is for. summoning = waste of energy.
 * F. also, there are no issues with using LBsig and being in earshot as you suggest. just dont stand in the AoE. ;o
 * Gesun Dheit 20:56, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

Suggestion
ST seems pretty useless when the imba is kept clean. For instance ST is only useful in city due to the energy that the imba loses. I thought about kicking the ST and bringing a Peace and Harmony, or some sort of good hex/condition removal monk. / Peace and Harmony.

Also thought about replacing EoE with lightbringer signet or possibly patient spirit. 12 Wildness Survival, 12 Divine Favor


 * its a possibility. theres a few things that could replace the st i think, just wish i had more time to play recently. been busy past 2 weeks. few skills on that bar tho i'd have to disagree with, but make ua/hb/pah bars, or you keeping theother monks the same? and test it post all 3 bars with results. Gesun Dheit 12:27, August 12, 2010 (UTC)

dwg + equipment
Whats the point in suggestiong that the DwG's should take various weaponsets when most of the time, or atleat the time in combat hold the item spell? sometimes you get unlucky with a mesmer or two and you have down time between DwG so you need some weps for that. Also they are useful between casts.--70.94.18.174 13:12, August 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * just for knowledge. it's information, unless youd prefer to bring misinformed people to doa. every little bit helps. plus wep/shield sets help to hide you energy from the enemy. Gesun Dheit 12:27, August 12, 2010 (UTC)

vs. titan shield?
Vs demons yes but +10al vs titans?? where from???


 * my badm that should be vs earth lol, ill fix that. lots of late night copy/pasting. Gesun Dheit 12:30, August 12, 2010 (UTC)

wouldnt it be +10vs cold as its frostway? Sthpaw 14:12, August 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * You would always want a +10 vs demons for DoA, everything in there is classified as a Demon and would have +10 armor vs it regardless if they were using phys or elem. So a +10/cold is good for all elem damage from winter but not help at all vs the phys. JackdoesSCs 08:18, August 20, 2010 (UTC)

ST rit
Superior communing and superior spawning please (or at least armor swap). Flesh of my flesh instead of mend body and soul (logical since ST is out of combat usually). If imba is standing in eruptions or right up close to the roller beetles then MBAS won't help anyway. --Suxon  my Kurdick  16:51, August 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * i haven't found a use for superior comm/spawning. all it does is give you spirits about another 30 health which does nothing for union, and shelter thats like half a hit on it. Gesun Dheit 12:27, August 12, 2010 (UTC)

Go Away Theoryonly-crafters
What kind of idiot tried to put build in well for deletion ? It is stable independent build which provide good pressure on mobs and defence for exp players in Hard Mode. It is also used now by overwhelming amount of players and guilds for their runs. So switch on your Guild Wars.exe (if you have it, Mr Theoryonly-crafter) and try to use this build in game before placing it in well. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 94.198.111.92 (talk &bull; contribs) 06:10, August 17, 2010 (UTC).
 * PvX:SIGN. Ju ze JuzeAvatar.jpg 09:10, August 17, 2010 (UTC)

Nicly and aesthetically
I see some ppl learnt my way of making builds on pvx like:  God Focused Anger.jpg Kamil  11:59, August 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * actually it looks like shit and you're not supposed to do that-- Relyk  talk  21:23, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * lol, maybe it looks like shit (but it is only your opinion), but this time i didn't do that :P -- God Focused Anger.jpg Kamil 08:27, August 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * to Relyk - i made it this time for more colorful and informative look, and if you dont like it so offer your own variant (instead of calling shit another ppls work) or fuck out from this page --Time_Buster Aug. 29, 2010 09:13 (UTC)
 * I agree with Time Buster. Idk why you think this is shit, imo it looks very nice, and i thought it is useful for everyone. -- God Focused Anger.jpg Kamil 16:07, August 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * Just wanted to sound off on this :D hehe. you know, i prefer the text descriptions instead of icons. icons are kinda of redundant, since they are in the skill bars. also, it adds ALOT of pictures to the download, slowing down page load. so i tried to limit the icons to the skills near the bottom. well, at least someone did some editting cuz i was sick of doing it all. ;p Gesun Dheit 17:58, September 21, 2010 (UTC)

PUGableness
This build is just unpugable :/ I tried for many times but no one was looking for team and no one wanted to join me. I think this is similar to caster spike that only good team made in alliance can do it. Ppl generally prefer glaiveway in nm rather than frostway. -- God  Kamil 12:15, September 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Very pug friendly
 * Agreed I pug this everyday--128.83.54.32 23:07, September 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * You just going at the wrong time, Kamil. Try to find party when americans or germans are playing. Exp ppl prefers Frostway HM (2-3 runs for armbr) instead of Glaiveway NM (3-5). --Time_Buster 04:54, September 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yea, maybe I was LF in wrong time because I couldn't find anyone, but I tried in other times and I did it twice :P works nicely -- God Focused Anger.jpg Kamil 08:32, September 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * I managed 2 days of good pugs with this all 4 areas completed well under 4 cons, today has been just bad not one group has managed to get past the first are we zone into, they all just rush in and get swamped healers cant keep up, para dosent know how to use his buffs so dissapointed :( --

Meta
This should be tagged as such. PuG's use this as the meta build for HM, and Glaiveway for NM. 83.131.47.88 17:33, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
 * This should def be meta. If no one disagrees I'll change it later tonight. -- Saxon  21:11, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

EoE
Is usually a wasted slot. As Gesun Dheit as said above, with experienced nukers EoE does negligible damage. Or with a inexperienced/bad/lazy/tired/laggy monk it quickly becomes a bomb to the party instead of the mobs. (Same story with bad pullers/morons, but then you've got a bigger problem then 1 wasted skill slot.) That considered, the points into beast mastery are also somewhat sizable and likewise wasted. I would suggest mainbaring Empowerment instead, and redirecting the beast mastery points into Spawning power. Also on the bar's energy management, if you put spawning power at 12+1 with the conset up you'll get 14 spawning power so Boon of Creation will give back 6 energy. With 11+1+rune Communing the effectiveness of Shelter/Union won't really suffer (particularly if you've chosen a +2 or +3 rune), but in exchange you can last a little longer spamming Shelter when it matters. Just my thoughts on improvements, but at the very least I do know there's got to be anything better then EoE to slot. Darkoak 11:54, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
 * If we assume you have exp people, your team would use Srift/Mistrust+COP on ranged enemies while melee is nuked, causing a eoe bomb and halving time spent killing shit. Don't shit with EoE Falrach 12:48, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Wastrel Spammer
How about replacing a DWG with something like this? [build prof=Elementalist/Mesmer EnergyStorage=11+1+2 DominationMagic=12 InspirationMagic=6][Ebon Battle Standard of Wisdom][Ether Renewal][Aura of Restoration][Elemental Lord (Luxon)][Mantra of Frost][Unnatural Signet][Wastrel's Demise][Wastrel's Worry][/build] --Aria Frost  talk  10:14, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 * WastREl SpammER?-- Relyk  talk  10:24, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Yep, while foes are hexed with Panic, spam:
 * WW
 * WD
 * change target foe with tab key
 * rinse & repeat
 * = massive AoE damage. --Aria Frost [[Image:Energy_Surge.jpg|19px]] talk  11:00, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 * You really don't need the ER energy gain - most frostway groups will be at least semi-balled, you'd get the same results from just standing amongst them with mantra and channeling active + spam like theres no tomorrow. Also larger range with DwG.-- [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] Chieftain  Alex  11:24, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 * if your a mesmer and you want an elite for spamming wastrels, why not run lyssas aura?

To the Rescue!
I'm stuck, can someone explain to me why pugs say that staying at the back of the cave during [http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/To_the_Rescue! To the Rescue!] is the best way to do this quest...instead of killing mobs as they spawn at the front? -- Moto   Saxon  16:28, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Well you let the NPC wall of warriors move forwards, and the foes tend to group into melee and casters split - allowing you to nuke them fairly easily. Also since the area with the warrior npcs is quite tight, foes are forced into a bottleneck to help you nuke them. -- [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] Chieftain  Alex  17:13, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 * So is the ideal situation to let the npcs charge > creating a bottle neck > foes split into melee and caster balls > DwG's charge & nuke melee > DwG's continue forward to nuke caster mob? What I run into is that after the melee mob is nuked, the team starts pinging to fall back to the rear of the cave, which doesn't make sense to me bc most of the enemies left are casters (albeit a lot of them), and they won't follow so the team just ends up getting range nuked. There is always confusion at this point. I'm an r8 DwG and my last 3 teams failed at this point. It's frustrating. -- Moto   Saxon  17:37, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd hazard that theres some more caster foes that spawn after you kill that first Melee only wave? -- [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] Chieftain  Alex  18:01, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The main purpose for staying back is for inexperienced DwGs. If you're at the front of the cave, the casters will stop outside. If you have 1 bad DwG, they'll run to the caster ball (instead of pulling them in) and aggro everything outside as well, which frequently ends in a wipe since the monks are usually low on energy at this point in the fight, and the new enemies won't be balled very well. One overzealous DwG can kill the whole team. If you stay at the back, it's less likely that an idiot will get the chance to pull this stunt.


 * And R8 groups are kind of pointless, Saxon. I got R8 on my monk in a single NM run and 2 HM runs. Based off the title, it looks like I'm very experienced there. On the other hand, for the short period of time I wasn't R8 I had the experience of being a regular infuser for a top 150 guild behind me. Lightbringer is only useful for the title effects, not at all for judging player skill. Some of the best people I've played with were low rank, and most of the worst actually R8.


 * Anyway, back to the matter at hand, the best way to survive the cave is to have everyone hug the left wall. The mobs won't be able to push past to your backline and everything balls very nicely. Pretty simple, really, just a matter of getting pugs to listen. On a side note, hugging the left wall at the end of city works very well for Jadoth for similar reasons. We frequently pull everything at the same time there. Just make sure the panic knows what he's doing or the casters will rip you a new one. Goes much smoother with Greater Conflag (see above discussion), but doable with standard ST. --Atanna Charta 01:27, 24 May 2011 (UTC)


 * I found if you stick to simple tactics that is easy for everyone, even at euro-hours, noobfest ZB days, it'll work. For instance...DwGs support the NPC Whispers at the start, then position to the mouth of the cave. Left wall, Right wall, does not matter. Mouth of the cave. If you happen to pull in straggler monsters, who cares. Theoretically they're going to die with the rest of the mob anyway. Positioning matters here. I typically ping Mind Tormentors and call my Soothing Images (but I play with awesome PnH monks, not HB, so they're quick to remove), and it goes well. With Minds down, Soothing Images off, and DwGs balled at the front of the cave, I have no problems. If your monk uses Enchantments and is positioned in the back of a mob, he'll lure in the monsters that remove Enchantments, right into that tight ball. It's common sense stuff. Don't need some special Delta Farce tactics for this cave....just need competent positioning. If you pull back, like most pugs do, your backline and defense is gonna be pressured. And in most pug situations, they'll fall. Quality 18:53, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

GCONF
Could someone put the Greater Conflagiration build into the main page? I dont know how but I run it and it works good. Its just hard to find PuGs because no one knows it exists. Joe the pirate 16:40, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not very good at it, but I put it up on the main page. If someone wants to fix it so it looks better/has optional choices, that'd be nice. 76.104.5.57 00:52, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
 * thanks bro =O! I could hug you Joe the pirate 18:24, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

PnH
This run can be done without a HB if the para is kept clean, so why not replace the HB with a PnH monk? Ɍɨɟƺʮ 00:39, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Because Draw Conditions and/or Spotless Mind will do the same thing. -- Jai . -  00:41, July 11 2011 (UTC)
 * spotless works but takes too longɌɨɟƺʮ 00:55, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Not if you maintain it... -- Jai . -  01:10, July 11 2011 (UTC)
 * Spotless takes 2.5 sec on average. Run imba and lrn2b happy with it when some1 maintains it.82.72.102.207 22:32, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
 * If the UA monk is good in removing hexes HB isnt needed at all. U can take 4th glaive spiker for more speed, however this might not be recommendable for pugs, bcause pugs suckSebv2727 11:43, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * You mean, if the Panic, SY, ST, and UA are good. A crappy imba or panic can ruin a run far more easily than a bad monk. -- Jai . -  13:10, August 27 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree. Spotless is total crap. Standing around waiting for Spotless to remove because monks are too lazy to get the program kinda sucks. And groups are always quick to blame a paragon :) I agree with the 4 DwG. Me and my friends run 4 DwGs and one UA with Convert, does wonders. Fast runs. If everyone isn't slacking and turning lazy, as pug groups typically do. All this is coming from my experience, and point of view from a 54 minute frost, and playing Paragon for ages. So take it or leave it. I don't care. This PnH build is genius. Quality 10:55, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Imba
Imba can take "To the Limit" instead of LB sig. Energy is fine in city if you do some wep swapping. Maybe not for every pug, but it should be variant for more exped imbas. Changed build to this yesterday, but was reverted. Please argue why/why not make this a variant? Clearly both LB sig and To the Limit is not needed.82.72.102.207 23:30, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I personally don't use TTL. I use LBSignet. As it helps with energy management even when I'm using a +20 energy Staff on weapon switch. And when you are hexed with Vocal Minority and has not been removed yet, LBSignet can pump that SY up ready to go. TTL can't. Since TTL Is a shout. LBSig is a good SY Build-up and Energy management all in one. I have used TTL in alot of builds, have ran *alot* of Imbagon builds, and after 4.5 years of playing Paragon, alot of that in DoA, I would just stay LBSig. Not one paragon user can give me a good explaination why, as to why they would use TTL over LBSig. If there's some logical reason why you would use this and not LBSignet, let me know. I've been dying to know why ever since the TTL change. Thank you. Quality 09:09, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Let me explain. Il first counter your arguments and then I will explain what advantages TTL has over LB signet. Your first point is about the energy gain. If you are weaponswapping properly you should never need this, not even in city. Next, when you are hexed with Vocal Minority you cant use SY anyway so not being able to insta-build adrenaline with TTL is redundant as well. So besides having a little bit easier play in city as not having to swap weapong like a pro, there are no real reasons to run LB sig over TTL. Now here is why I prefer TTL. It has a lower cooldown (15 secs for 25 secs). Next argument, you can use TTL when you are laying down on the ground after you are being Knock-downed. At this time, you cant use LB signet. So to sum up, I think LB sig gives a little bit easier play and TTL gives you a more spamable skill which you can use when you are being Knock-downed. Personally, I prefer the latter, especially when you are aiming for fast times 82.72.102.207 19:08, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

UA
Secondary should be warrior to drain hexes of the imba. No need for GolE as energy should be fine with LB sig. The hb monk should also camp in spear set as much as possible to drain anti melee hexes meant for the imba. Free hex removal is free :) 23:30, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree 100%. Everything you said is completely valid. I also see no reason why a monk in DoA would use GOLE...... Quality 09:16, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Clean up
thank god someone put the AoS builds up. Someone needs to clean up the builds, its all a mix of old and new builds. Mugen 13:04, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Our current record, Done by [FFS] & Friends :)



Mugen 13:04, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Crazy. That was a good run, haha. We coulda easily landed 50 minutes. Not bad for a team build not using a Shadowform gimmick. Pretty intense stuff. Very good job you guys, made possible because of you. Quality 09:12, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I"ve run a few times with you guys and I always love it. -- Moto   Saxon  19:08, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

A slightly better ST proposal
As seen in my sandbox. -- Moto   Saxon  16:52, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Anyone have thoughts/insights/objections to me updating the ST? -- Moto   Saxon  23:11, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Might want to wait longer than ~7 hours, given the pace of edits around here, if you really want feedback. Otherwise do whatever and get reverted if people don't like it. I personally see no problem with your version, but I'm not experienced in DoA at all. --  Toraen   talk  23:44, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * If looks alright, but Empowerment doesn't really make sense. The attributes look good, though. -- Jai . -  01:36, October 5 2011 (UTC)
 * Empowerment is one of the main focuses of the proposal. Your DwGs are your tankers and DPS and they are holding items/bundles 100% of the time in DoA. So they will be the only ones to benefit, but the will benefit the entire run. And since they are holding bundles, they get no energy or hp perks from there weapon set. I once filled in for a hard core doa guild, and they would not let me ST with out it. I've been using it ever since. I may try to update the build later as toraen suggested. -- Moto   Saxon  02:15, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
 * There is already an empowerment build that some use-

Ritzy 07:59, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
 * oh la la. Thanks ritzy, I'll try that out next run and update the st accordingly. -- Moto   Saxon  12:43, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

update is shit
 * Please comment and sign correctly using ~ or by hitting the sig button. Unless you have some sort of reasoning then your comment doesn't really hold any weight. The ST still has the same options as bf, I've only added the empowerment option for those that prefer it. -- Moto   Saxon  14:35, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Post Update
How badly did the update hurt this build? Ash 11:02, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I was wondering that same question. Did the update hurt this bad enough for it to get tagged nerfed or untagged meta or anything?--War Pig5 01:02, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Still works fine. Eles would be a better way to go though since their damage got buffed and they have more spammable AoE.  RąʂKɭɘş ♣  14/f/japan  01:12, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Updated Imba
Updated the Imba. Now it is better able to keep parties protected. It doesn't need Syg (got SY right?) and LB sig is inferior to To the Limit (in terms of recharge time and being a shout rather then a signet, which is faster, no aftercast etc.etc.). Fall Back for Faster movement. Energy in City is fine with some weapon swapping (henche the -5/15% on spear comes in handy). Overall, better build then before, better protection as well as a minor movement speed buff/healing while running. When weapon swapping in city is to hard, quit imba. If you want to revert, why do you want non-optimal builds? This is clearly better protection/MS buff, slightly slightly more difficult for city.145.100.227.205 15:46, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Normally we don't run We Shall return on imba either. ppl are expected to bring res scrolls Ritzysig1.jpg  Mugen  Ritzy  18:19, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
 * True, but you cant count on it since it is meant to be pugable195.240.0.186 14:06, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Mallyx "Frostway"
It doesn't look like frostway with the currently suggested Mallyx ST – there's no winter in the team. --Krschkr (talk) 14:57, 9 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Since you run Mallyx in normal mode, I think you're supposed to drop the Mantra on the DWG's (it isn't required in NM). Having consulted the builds I have saved from circa 2012, I would be adding Gaze of Fury (in case one of your lovely team fails to press escape) and Lightbringer Signet (preferable for interrupt)/Light of Deldrimor in the optional slot. Could use Channeling instead of gaze if worried about energy.
 * PnH isn't worth listing separately imo - just stick it under a variant section (cure hex &rarr; PnH & HB &rarr; Air of Superiority).
 * Also I kinda feel the additional columns in the summary section for the Starburst builds are unnecessary too (The range is similar to DwG, natively a longer recharge, but you get to use your 40/40 set..) - Chieftain Alex (talk) 18:30, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I think that the frostway idea could be revived for alliance events. I'll try to convince enough players from my guild to test and tweak these builds. With a pnh monk (6 sec duration/8 recharge with 12+1+3+1 DF, weapon of enchanting -> blessed aura) it should be possible to drop the ST entirely as a paragon can maintain SY permanently (OQGigqVIxTcxBAAAAAEDmuBEC used this with heroes). We also thought about a frontline DWG ranger with storm chaser for the energy management (roughly along the lines of this OggkgZis1eJExmjj30F3xB0hzxAI). That'd allow to have both winter and EoE on a character with summon spirits despite dropping the primary ritualist.
 * In other words: I consider a rewrite of this if I find enough players for thorough testing. --Krschkr (talk) 18:38, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Frostway 2.0
– if anyone cares to test this, have fun. --Krschkr (talk) 17:19, 29 April 2020 (UTC)