User talk:Toraen/Archive 8

I'm too bored to come up with anything original to say, so FURST!!!!!!!!!!! -- Jai . -  01:42, September 14 2011 (UTC)

Extension and skill changes
They (it?) work on the dev wiki. They'll go live tomorrow when Curse roll out the new version of MW =3.  ~ PheNaxKian talk  17:57, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Good. Assuming that all works, the next thing to change will be Fast Casting. I've got the extra conditions for the cast time reduction (non-mesmer spells & signets have to be 2 second cast and above to be affected) in the next copy. I haven't started the PvE recharge reduction yet. I was also thinking of dummying out the leadership cost modification function (since it's not very helpful). I'll upload this copy to the box tomorrow after the changes go live so you can take a look. --  Toraen   talk  20:59, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
 * It's live now, apparently!  ~ PheNaxKian talk  22:48, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Looks good to me. I've got the next set of changes up on the box (along with a changelog textfile). If you think we can do anything else in this change feel free to try. --  Toraen   talk  23:57, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

UW triple/duo terra.
Every so often another one of these pops up. You think they should just be thrashed like most of them, or be fit together with optional spikers? Falrach 14:38, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I've never even completed UW so I'm no expert on what we should store for it. All I can say is that it should be stored if it's competitive with what we already have (is it as reliable as our current builds while having similar times?). If it turned out to be significantly better than what we've got, the old builds would probably be archived (especially if PuGs move on from them as a result). If it's worse, into the trash bin. --  Toraen   talk  15:56, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Triple/Duo terra is generally inferior to Terraway, but it's quite commonly ran, and on average only ~5 min slower. The reason its ran is against main team fuckups mostly. Falrach 16:05, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Ancestors' Rage Icon
Do we really need a pvp version and a normal version of the icon for a mispelling, i.e. Ancestors' Rage when it should be Ancestors' Rage?

I noticed you deleted the sliver armor mistake so I figured this might be due for correction --  Chieftain   Alex  08:27, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I guess we don't. I didn't realize this one had a misspelling. Edit: Actually, Ancestors' Rage (the second one) is linked on a lot of pages. I might go and fix them later, but I can't just delete it until I do that. --  Toraen   talk  12:22, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

or some other script to fix these. --  Toraen   talk  05:22, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Asirra
I've added it to the repo. As soon as somebody pushes it to Dev i'll have a look, and if everything works i'll get it pushed live =).  ~ PheNaxKian talk  16:24, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * One step closer to open editing. /dance --  Toraen   talk  17:12, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * It's live! Also re-enabled anon editing (given Asirra stops bots). Not sure about new pages though.  ~ PheNaxKian talk  18:44, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Woo, good news. I am very tired and not very excited about it now, but will be after a nap, surely. --  Toraen   talk  20:19, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
 * New pages are go. Will update sitenotice+news. --  Toraen   talk  20:56, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Trial-Build/Untested-Trial
Mind if we make redirects for Untested-Trial and Untested-Testing? It makes more sense if it was Testing-Build and Trial-Build, since that's how pretty much all the other build tags are set up. -- Jai . -  23:50, September 27 2011 (UTC)
 * Eh, if you really want to and Phen doesn't smite it go ahead. --  Toraen   talk  23:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Noooo
I didn't get full transcript of locust trigger, pity.-- Relyk 21:25, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Belated Birthday
Oops. It seems this indicates it was your birthday on the 5th. Happy Belated Birthday. :>  Chieftain   Alex  10:04, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Happy Belated Birthday Falrach 13:34, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you both! Everyone else who forgot/didn't know gets bans! --  Toraen   talk  01:47, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Because getting happy birthday wishes from nerds that you've never met (and very likely never will) is quite special. Also, Steve Jobs died on your birthday, so I blame you. -- Jai . -  03:01, October 8 2011 (UTC)
 * it was a dark room. The only light came from dimly lit candles atop a birthday cake. Toraen thought long and hard about the wish he wanted to come true. He'd never really liked apple, since his iPod crapped out, and why get an iPad or iPhone when there was android based alternatives? So he took a deep breath and blew the candles out...  ~ PheNaxKian talk  12:07, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
 * i can't be the only one that thought of this after reading that. also, happy birthday toraen! turns out your birthday's two days before mine. Danny 21:46, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
 * And one before mine ^. -- [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] Chieftain  Alex  22:08, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The cake likely had spinning beachballs as decorations-- Relyk 00:21, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi.
You're an admin, right? I just have a question as to the point of the whole "Innovation" score. It's been "blocked out" for years, as far as I can tell. Why is it still there and how is only two marks of scoring accurate for build ratings? Just curious.Vanguard 01:01, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * We lack the technical ability to remove it entirely without breaking anything. Also, changing the format of votes would probably somehow invalidate all existing votes and wipe them. I haven't tried or given the Rate page code more than a glance mind you, but given my luck that would happen. --  Toraen   talk  01:07, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * First point makes sense. However, I think wiping ratings would be an acceptable tradeoff for fixing the system. Things getting broke is just a short term issue. Though if the locals are unable, that's acceptable. (I sure as hell am not)Vanguard 01:15, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Lol. Innovation means nothing, and the rating scale is essentially a 5 point scale with 0.2 increments. There's really not anything inherently wrong with it, and considering how dead PvX is right now losing ALL of our ratings would be very detrimental. To give you an idea, we still don't have 5 votes on a lot of the PvP builds that were wiped nearly a year ago because of the move from Wikia (we kept builds previously on PvX@Wikia in their respective categories to prevent having to literally re-vet everything on PvX). I really see no pressing reason why we would need to completely revamp the rating system, and why doing so would make PvX's vetting any better. -- Jai . -  01:51, October 27 2011 (UTC)
 * I was just sayin'.-- VanguardLogo75px.png anguard  02:33, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * wouldn't it be super easy to just remove the innovation checkbox? Smity Smitington 02:35, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't it be easier to just leave it as it is? -- Jai . -  02:44, October 27 2011 (UTC)
 * if it were as easy as removing like 1 or 2 lines of code then it would probably be worth it Smity Smitington 02:45, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Could always ban people who check it. Simple solution! ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 02:55, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Two weighted marks for the scoring is accurate enough for this wiki. Ratings aren't precise enough for it to matter due to the small and biased userbase. Innovation can be considered a curiosity for visitors to wonder about.-- Relyk 03:19, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * It probably isn't so simple. And if we get rid of the innovation box we'd need to remove any reference to innovation from any of the rating related special pages (the bars on the graph, the Innovation on My Ratings and Recent Ratings). It's not worth the effort when it'll probably just break the wiki again. Phen doesn't have a whole lot of free time lately and I'd rather any coding time he got go to fixing the sizable list of PvXcode issues we already have. --  Toraen   talk  13:46, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * dangnammit give me the code ill do it Smity Smitington 15:09, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

What Smity said. That's my line of thought.--  anguard  03:55, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * It'd actually probably be easy (i've not looked, but I'd imagine so). The reason it's still there is buried somewhere in the discussion around reducing it's weighting to 0 (it was orginaly another 0-5 scale worth about 10% of a vote).
 * I believe (off the top of my head) that reason was because there were a lot of people who were complaining about how you wouldn't be able to see how original a build was (people like to hipsters you see). <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  16:07, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * That makes sense Smity Smitington 16:13, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Feedback
Hello! I want to thank you for everything you have done for the PvX Wiki. Allow me to introduce myself. I am Tesla, a wiki manager for Curse. The reason I am posting on your talk page is for some feedback. I was hoping you could tell me if there was something you would like to see on the wiki or if you think there is something we could do to help improve the quality of our service to the community. If you have any ideas at all, please feel free to stop by on my talk page and leave me your thoughts. Thank you! DjTesla 06:08, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

PvP skills issue
My free time aside, I don't know if I could fix this easily. I've looked and I can't see what's causing the issue. Combined with the fact I can't run it on my local PC, and step through the code and see what's going on, it's difficult to debug. I can't do it the old fashioned way (comments/messages on the page) because I'd have to bother Bryan or Tim every time I made a tiny little change =x. <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  18:26, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Ya, I remember you telling me about that. Testing via "I sure hope this doesn't implode the site" hasn't worked out well for us either. We'd need someone who can make changes and modify the test server as they wish to check where problems occur in a timely manner. --  Toraen   talk  21:28, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
 * well the problem is that's curse staff only. We're only allowed repo access. That means we can make changes, and access those changes be made to the Test/live server but we can't directly change either (security reason obv =v). what I might do is just one weekend go through that chunk of code and stick a ton of "spam phen with e-mails" code so I can see what's going on. Might figure it out eventually that way, and i can do it over a period of time. <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  23:08, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Question
Is there any way to find all subpages for a given user? Just wanted to see if I have any crap that isn't linked on my user page. -- Jai . -  01:29, November 3 2011 (UTC)
 * -- Relyk 03:33, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

File bookkeeping
Move File:Relyk - 01.jpg to File:Relyk_3612.jpg. The number was reference to the damage ^_^.-- Relyk 03:41, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Done. --  Toraen   talk  16:23, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Policy
I get why you and Phen don't want to remove votes that have any kind of reasoning and aren't blatant troll votes, but shouldn't there also be some points when there's an exception? On the AP ele, it's pretty obvious that there is consensus against Ska's vote specifically.

It would be nice, in my opinion, to change some of the voting policy to, first off, be more specific as to what should be rated on and what shouldn't, and also preferably give you and the other admins at least a little freedom for removing votes. As is, anybody can come up with a half-assed reason for their low (or high) vote and there really isn't anything people can do about it if the person doesn't change it themselves. -- Jai . -  03:27, November 8 2011 (UTC)
 * Isn't that the point of democracy? So even the autistic people can vote how they want? >Insert Bush/Obama joke here< Roland 03:40, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * PvX isn't a democracy. -- Jai . -  04:00, November 8 2011 (UTC)
 * Then why do we vote? Just bring back the BM and have them say yay or nay on builds.( I actually like this idea as long as the BM were decent). Roland 04:13, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Toraen can probably say specifically why we stopped having BM's, but I think at least one part of it was that they could let their opinions influence their decisions to remove votes much too easily. And I'm not saying that Toraen/Phen should start being like BM's, but just that we need clearer rules as to what flies and what doesn't when voting, and possibly establish a way to get votes removed if there's a consensus to remove them, as is the case on the AP ele build. -- Jai . -  04:23, November 8 2011 (UTC)
 * This says it better than I could. And of course, the later sections on PvXwiki_talk:Build_Masters. --  Toraen   talk  09:00, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * "Consensus" and "circle-jerk" are synonymous around here. What you're suggesting simply tweaks the system in your favor, since you seem to be a member of, if not the leader of one of the few remaining circle-jerks. Danny 20:13, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't worry, I will apply for BM status as soon as they make a return! ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 04:29, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Might as well hit the nuke button. -- Jai . -  04:30, November 8 2011 (UTC)
 * I can't tell if you're joking or not. I sincerely hope you're joking. Danny 20:08, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Skakid isn't blatantly wrong, I trust toraen and phen's discretion on removing it or not.-- Relyk 04:31, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Honestly, I'm waiting to be sure discussion is mostly finished before considering removing votes. That talk kinda exploded and I don't want revert wars over votes (the worst kind since rate doesn't track history). Better to get all the arguments out first. --  Toraen   talk  07:17, 8 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Jai, my voting and reasoning were explained on the discussion page. It's still being discussed. You see consensus, because you have an extremely obvious vendetta against me. How about you calm down, and let these things resolve themselves, instead of crying to an admin or the noticeboard when things don't go your way. &mdash; <font color="#CC0099">Skakid  Rally- kupo! [[Image:S9M.png]] 08:26, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * This really has nothing to do with past events, other than the fact that the majority of drama/discussion/whatever I've seen has come from arguing about votes. I just don't like the fact that, under the current rules (which, as I was saying would be nice to write up so we can actually know about them and reference them), somebody with a halfway decent reason for trashing a build hardly even has to argue for themselves and the vote will simply not be removed. Hell, I've even done it myself where I made a trashvote and half-assed defended it, and nothing was actually done about the vote. And I've been about this since back in May when were some huge walls of text on 7HPS from YuriZahard over his vote, which simply did not get removed even though his vote was going against our (completely de-facto right now) policies. He finally ended up changing the vote enough to not trash the whole build, but that was after days of argument, and no intervention from the admins.
 * Your vote did bring this idea up again for me, but I'm telling the truth when I say that it's directed less at you but more the flaws and loopholes of the rating system. Oh, and I have a vendetta against you because I called you out for trolling and then didn't listen to you when you tried to do the same to me but for a minor break in policy? Whatever you say... -- Jai . -  11:53, November 8 2011 (UTC)
 * That's how PvX works. It's probably no coincidence that both me and Ska have the exact same issues listed. There's no need to defend votes as long as the votes contain reasoning. Personally, I think it's laughable that that build isn't in trash or WELL'd for an Any/A version. Danny 20:08, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Ugh, fuck this until the weekend when I can actually write my thoughts up. The gist is that I feel, as a whole, that we don't have enough power to actually change or remove votes, but I don't have enough time to write up anything that actually explains stuff. -- Jai . -  11:59, November 8 2011 (UTC)


 * @Danny: As I said on the talk page of that build, making an Any/A would be pointless since they all already have their own pages to be vetted per their usefulness to each profession (with templates that actually load in GW). We currently don't force primary reroll for general PvE either. Also, if someone criticizes a vote reasoning and brings it to my attention, I do expect a defense of that vote's reasoning from someone if I can't defend it myself. Otherwise I'd have to remove it.
 * @Jai: I don't think we need more power to remove votes than what I just described. I am not an amazing GW player (to say the least...) and neither is Phen. Giving Phen and I more power over votes would pretty much destroy any credibility of the vetting system if we actually used it. If you want us to vote/consensus away others' votes, nay from me because it would be redundant to users just voting on the build as each believes it should be rated. --  Toraen   talk  22:36, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I just want to say because i've seen it brought up a couple of times. The re-rolling in PvE is a non-issue here. You're talking about an Any/A. As in, any primary profession.... <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  23:54, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I know, but Any/A isn't getting made since it'd be redundant (the split to individual profession pages already happened) so another argument is being inferior to the other profession variants of the AP spiker, which isn't valid. Comparison with ER eles was brought up but they're different roles (like comparing smite and heal monks). It could still be trashed for inferior to other ele options for damage, but I don't see any better ones. --  Toraen   talk  01:40, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Since when is comparing smite monks to heal monks not valid? If there's something you can be doing better with your profession, it shouldn't matter what you want to do. Once you get into what you want to do, there's no reason you can't discuss re-rolling in PvE because, plainly, running a W/Mo to try to be a healer isn't nearly as effective as what you could be doing. Danny 19:54, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * There is an exception to no PvE rerolling that covers that: it has to be useful. Both smite and heal monks are useful and different roles. An AP ele and an ER ele are useful and different roles. A warrior healer is not useful at all. This isn't going to be clear cut because we have to deal with a wider range of players than "just the elite" for PvE, but where I draw the line leaves the AP ele on the site. No one with an ele as a main is going to ER prot through everything because it's an inefficient way to get an ele through vanquisher/guardian/general pve. Like it or not, we have to provide builds for people who won't be thrilled to reroll when they've already done a lot on one character. --  Toraen   talk  20:36, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Didn't realize it was the only good ele damage build >.< &mdash; <font color="#CC0099">Skakid  Rally- kupo! [[Image:S9M.png]] 20:47, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * AP build for Monk, Necro, Ele, and Paragon(?) is superior to all other damage builds available to those professions in terms of hero teams. Monk, Necro, and Paragon literally have no decent damage builds (RoJ is shitty, inconsistent damage by itself and Searing Flames also sucks by itself).-- Relyk 21:11, 9 November 2011 (UTC)


 * It's what you want to do for a given profession, not any profession. Just because all casters have the luxury of running the AP build doesn't mean you have to choose the profession that is most advantageous for it nor does it mean we should generalize the build to all professions. People will come to the site to look for a build for their Elementalist or Warrior, not a specific build that could possibly be used for their profession. Categorizing professions by build or by area you want to do (like picking a UA Monk or Emo for some elite area) is backwards. The any/X builds we have exist because it's for a specific task or there's no possible variation (such as running spirit spammer). any/A would be a general build that varies the skill choice and usage based on the profession.
 * This variation exists because your primary attribute and secondary attributes have a direct impact on the effectiveness, however significant or insignificant. This is in addition to 4 other optional slots and 12 or more free attribute points (like running 8 or 10 instead of 12 in Deadly Arts). The core build of 4 skills is not broad enough to cover such with a single build article. That isn't to say you couldn't manage on just those 4 skills and 12 in Deadly Arts for 90% of PvE because you can.-- Relyk  21:11, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Can we start using the build talk again? --  Toraen   talk  21:50, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I wasn't actually talking specifically about the above build and Skakid's vote. I was trying to be more general and say that (IMO) we need to have some sort of policy that describes in better detail what is expected when vetting builds of a certain category. I've seen the primary profession argument rehashed too many times not to be annoyed by it. For the vote removal part I wasn't necessarily saying that you and Phen should be more aggressive with vote removal (because I know why you're not and I'm not arguing at all about that). I was thinking that it would make the system a little more balanced if we had some way of removing votes, such as through a general consensus or something. -- Jai . -  03:48, November 10 2011 (UTC)

huh? everything looked fine to me. Care to elaborate? <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  23:51, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The bot account isn't exempt from the abuse filter yet. I tried to fix the filters to allow sysop regardless of autoconfirm status but I messed it up and just reverted those changes. It'll be irrelevant in ~2 days so it's not a huge deal. --  Toraen   talk  01:30, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * no, I mean why the deletion. <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  17:27, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * We don't need Great/Good/Trial/Testing for CM anymore, since it's split into JQ and FA. So I deleted those categories. --  Toraen   talk  18:25, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

that vote
As small as the chance may be, maybe he actually didn't vote twice, and was responding to me as if I were referring to his deleted vote? That'd actually be pretty hilarious &mdash; <font color="#CC0099">Skakid  Rally- kupo! 02:00, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Interesting &mdash; Alex's vote is back, and in Recent Ratings it's back down the list at the original voting time. &mdash; <font color="#CC0099">Skakid  Rally- kupo! [[Image:S9M.png]] 02:09, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
 * His was never removed. -- Jai . -  02:20, November 10 2011 (UTC)
 * ^Haven't removed Alex's at all. I could have sworn I removed Excluded's vote when he changed it to that reasoning, but maybe it didn't send for some reason? --  Toraen   talk  02:28, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I see how much drama you put up with toraen (sometimes from me included). You're good at keeping a level head imo. Smity Smitington 02:31, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
 * And I didn't mean to cause this much drama. :( Just meant to basically tell Alex and Minion to 5-5 the build and get on our way... -- Jai . -  02:33, November 10 2011 (UTC)


 * Huh. Could've sworn I saw 2 removals. Owell &mdash; <font color="#CC0099">Skakid  Rally- kupo! [[Image:S9M.png]] 02:43, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
 * 2nd one was Vorpal, but he then deleted his vote which removes it entirely from ratings history (bleh). He copy/pasted Excluded's vote which is why I removed it right away. --  Toraen   talk  02:44, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

"Largely incomplete"
That's kinda the point of the stub tag.... As for the redundancy given GWiki and GWW while true I wrote most of that when we had no idea what we were doing with those kinda guides (also, it was easier =x). That aside it seems pointless to just delete, it can be reworked if somebody can be bothered to put the effort in. <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  18:21, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The problem is that effort has not been put into those forever, and having them show up in the guide categories makes it seem like we're presenting something useful when we in fact are not. Also, since that guide in particular isn't really focusing on what PvX does best and instead goes into a rehash of what GW and GWW say... I don't find it particularly valuable. --  Toraen   talk  18:30, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
 * true, but that can be said about pretty much every guide we have. I think the only good guide we have is the invinci-monk guide really. But oh well. All i'd say is decide how you (/the community) want guides for PvE area's to be. Bearing in mind they can't really hold builds beyond the bare essentials (so people don't bypass vetting). <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  18:37, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm trying to come up with some standards (yet another of these!) that I'm probably going to draft into a policy proposal (probably called PvXwiki:Guide Organization and Standards, or something). Help on deciding what to do with the Guide namespace would be appreciated. --  Toraen   talk  18:40, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Extension stuff
Too lazy to link to the individual files: Special:NewFiles. The newest 4 or so (start with "dev"). As far as i can tell the changes didn't work.

Also, Remember brackets on your if statements:

//with one test condition If {  //codes }

//with multiple conditions ("&&" meaning "and the following must also be true") If( && ) {  //codes }

//with multiconditions with at least one multipart conditions (with "||" meaning "or the following is true) If (test condition one && (first part of inner test || second part)) { //test one is true AND either the first part or second part (or both) of the inner test are true) }

<font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  18:30, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Arg. Thanks though. Guess I'll try modifying from the original again and hopefully not mess up. --  Toraen   talk  18:33, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Bot
What's it doing exactly? It's doing something regarding templates but I can't see any consistency.... <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  22:16, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm doing manual cleaning of the wanted templates. AWB still doesn't work, but I'm doing this anyway because it's relaxing. Auto-Toraen 22:40, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Out of interest why did you blank that malevolent guy's userpage? I couldn't find any links to it of the template form. [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain  <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  22:45, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
 * There were about 10-20 wanted templates from it before I blanked it due to the flipped characters. --  Toraen   talk  22:56, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

RfA (lol)
"was no joke ;o Brandnew 18:11, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I really don't think I'd make a good admin though. I really don't want to mediate conflicts on this wiki, as they're pretty headdesk inducing. Toraen  talk  18:12, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * ic, never mind then. ^_^ Brandnew 18:14, 1 May 2009 (UTC)"

Look how that turned out... Poor Toraen. :( -- Jai  . -  00:55, November 17 2011 (UTC)

Build:R/any Enraged Lunge Bow Hero
Did I miss something at some point? Why the heck is this in good with 2 votes? Do we not care any more about a 5 vote minimum because no one is here anyway? A new misery 11:55, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * When we moved from Wikia to Curse, we lost all the ratings on every build. Instead of making every build back to trial, we decided to keep the existing tags - until it receives another 5 votes. [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain  <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  11:59, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Ooooh, May 2010. I read 2011 for some reason. A new misery  15:01, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

lolPvE
What does it mean? ~  Ӎiñon  01:04, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * PvE is funny because there isn't even a meta outside of balance changes to actual skills. It isn't to be taken seriously because there are like 3 people on this wiki who know everything about PvE anyway. Ben Tbh 01:14, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It's hyperbole about the difficulty of PvE. I was noting that even casters with no defensive skills could run into melee because of OP things like Shelter, even if it's not recommended. --  Toraen   talk  01:18, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * not recommended? last i checked, moebius and ap are still the only skills worth bringing into PvE unless you REALLY wanna run ether renewal. with that under consideration, casters in melee is simply standard operating procedure in certain areas. (of course, even if that happens to not still be true, lolpve still applies. especially with 7 hero teams.) Danny 11:19, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Meobius dropped out, everyone just says dagger spam now.-- Relyk 12:46, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * While pve has pretty much been solved, we should be focusing on solving it fast. Examples are certain questionably-designed WoC quests and vanquishing areas full of 1-4 size mobs (generic aoe methods flounder there). There's always room for improvement. That being said, remember we're only 1% of the gw playerbase, making fashion trends here very mercurial. A revolution is nice every now and then Fianchetto 20:14, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * How to win PvE fast: 1.fall back, 2. aoe 3.ball 4.??? ... ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 20:18, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The meta is already spike-oriented, killing mobs efficiently is dependent on player skill. Why does aoe come before balling excluded? :D-- Relyk 22:36, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I noticed as soon as I posted it... It's k, autistic license, isn't it? ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 22:38, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm in a bad mood
But on the mesmer midline build, Applesaucepancakes changed his vote from a 0-0 to a 5-5 because someone added "1-2" to the build page. How the hell can somebody reason that? I know there's not really much to do here, but need to fucking vent. -- Jai . -  06:01, December 6 2011 (UTC)
 * Vent not! I think he was just changing it from his old one, which complained about not having 3 mesmers. &mdash; <font color="#CC0099">Skakid  Rally- kupo! [[Image:S9M.png]] 06:11, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
 * ... --  Toraen   talk  06:17, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, I know why he changed it. And no, a change from 2 mesmers to the possibility of 3 mesmers is not a 5-fucking-point difference. -- Jai . -  06:19, December 6 2011 (UTC)
 * If it makes you feel better, his previous vote would have been removed had he not taken care of it himself. --  Toraen   talk  06:20, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Why is everyone suddenly lobbying for it? What changed? ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 06:23, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
 * For the mesmer midline build? No one ever lobbied against it. -- Jai . -  06:35, December 6 2011 (UTC)
 * You can always vent on my page jai!-- Relyk 06:53, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
 * In any case, I'm pretty sure his old vote was like 2-3, not 0-0 as you claim, but ok. A new misery  10:34, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Ty for that, was exactly what i wanted to do!  Geist tha burdill  Enormous 11:11, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
 * It was like 1-1 for obvious reasons, it got changed like instantly so I changed my vote. Why are you complaining again Jai? I could make it a nice 4-5 if you want, won't make a difference though. ApplesaucePancakes 14:30, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

deleted pages
Is it possible to get them back? I wanted that page in my userspace. ~  Ӎiñon  23:26, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'll restore and move it. --  Toraen   talk  02:14, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Cheers. ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 03:53, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

GA
Toraen you should join our AvA team on global agenda after christmas. Would be cool to hang out in a non-shitter environment. rąʂKƴɖooƿɭɘş 18:44, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

enormous
Shall I just post every ip/user account of enormous on pvx? (Admin noticeboard)<font color="#ff0000">Shadow  <font color="#008000">Christmas Signature 20:42, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
 * If you see one that is not banned go ahead and do that if he makes edits but isn't taken care of quickly. --  Toraen   talk  20:52, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I happened to be online. I'll do as you say, won't go in 1RW <font color="#ff0000">Shadow Shadow02122011.gif <font color="#008000">Christmas Signature 20:58, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

lolpvx
The sad thing is they actually think I'm going to stop trying to fix things if they type enough letturs. In other (less flamebaiting) news, I've been laid off so I have tons of time, unarchive PvX:BM and make me a build master. I've done every form of pve ever, be it balanced/randomway/speedclear. I have exceptional knowledge of how skill mechanics work and how hero skill mechanics fail. Also how to improve hero skill mechanics see: [ removed ]. I avoid lashing out at people and focus on their behavior or mistakes, and I'm sure danny approves. rąʂKƴɖooƿɭɘş 09:35, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Barking up the wrong tree if you want BM unarchived. That one pretty much falls to Auron and Phen since they are the only ones still here that can promote. Auron was rather clear about his stance to remove them, so you probably won't have much luck. Also, stop linking to botting-related info. --  Toraen   talk  09:46, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Merry Christmas <: rąʂKƴɖooƿɭɘş 15:58, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
 * To be honest Rask, you kind of embody a lot of the problems we had with buildmasters. You are pretty quick to lash out at people and seem to have difficulty remaining civil when you are at odds with someone. I couldn't support that application at this point in time even if they were reinstated. We kind of used buildmasters as a way to get people who knew about the game but were totally unacceptable as admins the powers required to police builds. I think we decided in the end that it wasn't worth the problems it caused and if you want the tools, you have to be worthy of adminship too. Oh and Merry Christmas or something. A new misery  13:00, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
 * danny for admin. because i'm totally not a dick. Danny 23:05, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
 * ok. dandy 4 admin, i'll be like "i won't ban you, i'm too nice, you be nice too so i don't need to!" ;D -- DANDY ^_^ -- 02:09, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Dandy + Danny 2012 Danny 03:36, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I honestly don't think I wanna be an admin here. -- DANDY ^_^ -- 12:22, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
 * You don't. A new misery  19:36, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I do. rąʂKƴɖooƿɭɘş 22:16, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Must be really miserable. -- DANDY ^_^ -- 01:15, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Love you guys <3 rąʂKƴɖooƿɭɘş 07:16, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
 * No one wants to be an admin here. There's a reason our admin team hasn't changed at all in any recent time. Danny 17:11, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't mind being admin, but there's that one tiny little problem of of me being an ass and all. -- Jai' s Computer -  17:01, January 1 2012 (UTC)
 * It has slightly less to do with you being an ass and slightly more to do with you being a complete retard sometimes. I'd almost venture that you're worse than I am about admitting when you're wrong. Danny 17:51, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Vincent 2012! <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 18:41, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Don't you already have a henchman named after you? Fuck off. <3 Danny 19:51, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Someone needs to help mediate retardation, right? <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 22:04, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
 * <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Admin]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]]-- Relyk  23:20, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Spotted another vorpal sock vote
Second one from the top. -- <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain  <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  02:15, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Because I never read this crap
Do votes on a build get lost whenever you move a build? I never noticed before. -- Jai' s Computer -  16:59, January 1 2012 (UTC)
 * I can't say about now but they certainly didn't used to. I renamed half the PvE section after all. - <font color="CornflowerBlue">Athrun <font color="CornflowerBlue">Feya [[Image:Athrun snow sig.gif]] 17:03, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
 * It can't. Dunno why it says that could happen. -- Toraen   confer  21:34, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Just wanted to make sure. I didn't remember that ever happening, but I never really payed attention to it either. And Lau, yeah, I remember that. ^.^ -- Jai' s Computer -  06:51, January 2 2012 (UTC)

zzz
I forgot about that-- Relyk 06:06, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, it's a project for Auto-Toraen now. -- Toraen   confer  06:07, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Robo-Toraen! <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 06:18, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I think i should get a royalty everytime the name auto-toraen is used :o 98.207.35.105 12:02, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Looks like I'm going to be making AutoIt scripts every time I need to do something with A-T. At least it sorta worked this time. -- Toraen   confer  12:00, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * what exactly is this section in reference to, I can't see anything it might be =x? <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  12:01, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * it was a transcluded signature page that Relyk tagged for deletion, resulting in tons of talk pages showing up for deletion. I subst'd every one of them with the bot so it could be deleted without breaking all the sig links. -- Toraen   confer  12:03, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * ah. Yeah, that's a very automated thing. Especially if you can just give the script/bot a page (or list of pages) it has to do it for then it can be re-used! <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  12:53, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * You guys can talk about bots but I can't. Harumph! rąʂKƴɖooƿɭɘş 22:32, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Are you sure you can't ban for general retardedness?
I had a lengthy discussion with Minion last night on how he needed to act like less of a dick and then he goes and does this. The whole PvX is tired of his dramafests that he creates wherever he goes. -- Jai' s Computer -  16:02, January 2 2012 (UTC)
 * Honestly, I'm going to stay neutral in all of this, even though I've been in enough arguments with him before. I'm sure its plausible and I remember some admin doing it before. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 16:04, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, Auron does it on a regular basis (and I'm sure he actually has more reason, but just cbf to go and explain it), but that's it. Also, why even post if you're saying you're going to stay out of this? -- Jai' s Computer -  16:22, January 2 2012 (UTC)
 * I should clarify, I'm going to see it for what it truly is. Consider my position similar to a commentator. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 16:24, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Fantastic...... -- Jai' s Computer -  16:33, January 2 2012 (UTC)
 * Now we wait for Toraen it seems. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 16:35, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * i'm pretty sure this could fall under PW:CHILL. just a thought. Danny 21:00, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Never knew CHILL :O. But I agree Danny, he could use a chill  Shadow The Mayans are wrong! 21:29, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I just read through that CHILL page; nothing applies to me. Anyway, incase the majority decide it's a good idea to ban me, I'll apologise for being open about my thoughts. Happy? ~  Ӎiñon Crysig.jpg 21:42, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The point is "Stop posting replies, go outside and get some sunshine." It's solely at an admin's discretion to ban you so stop playing the victim. Jai could also take a chill pill on this issue.-- Relyk 22:02, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Chill only goes so far. Minion's been at his antics for months now and nothing has changed in that time. -- Jai' s Computer -  22:35, January 2 2012 (UTC)
 * This might fall under PW:TROLL then. And no, not intentionally trolling doesn't mean you're not trolling. A creationist can troll atheists simply by posting his honest opinion in a forum. Similarly, a very bad player can troll good mediocre players simply by posting dumb comments. Danny 09:41, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * If you actually believe that nothing in that policy could apply to you, you are entirely self-unaware. A brief glance over the referenced comments was enough to spot it immediately. I'd strongly suggest attempting to engage yourself in introspection before posting anything on the internet - it will save you a lot of embarrassment. Danny 09:35, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Don't be an obnoxious drama llama. says it all! - <font color="CornflowerBlue">Athrun <font color="CornflowerBlue">Feya [[Image:Athrun snow sig.gif]] 00:37, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
 * CHILL's a wonderful policy that, iirc, I was in heavy violation of back in my shitter days. It's a good basis for short bans to cool off tempers. Danny 09:35, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Being as Toraen (or any other admin for that matter) hasn't commented I will. Yes we can ban for general stupidity. It's not a written law as we don't usually do so, it's only if the user knows better, or has been told something (with facts/policies for reference) repeatedly but still insists on saying/doing the opposite. <font color="#4169E1"> ~ PheNaxKian <font color="#8A2BE2">talk  22:09, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Minion has a habit of causing drama and in general forcing shitstorms because his "opinion" varies from the facts. This has nothing to do with Jai over-reacting, it's a constant issue that's being ignored every single day. I mean hell, he even went on a rampage on Lau. She's one of the nicest people here, easily the most mature. rąʂKƴɖooƿɭɘş 22:26, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * He is known to create "wikidrama".  Shadow The Mayans are wrong! 22:27, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * He is probably more active in terms of build contributions than any of the above users. [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] <font face="Calibri" color="Black" size="2.5">Chieftain  <font face="Calibri" color=CC6633 size="2.5"> Alex  23:41, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Which are mostly done out of opinion. <font color="brown" size="2px">Vincent Evan <font color="brown" size="2px">[Air Henchman]  [[Image:vincels.jpg|19px]] 23:54, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * That doesn't really excuse his behavior, and the others have had plenty of build-related contributions. -- Toraen   confer  00:03, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Minions contributions are mostly silly and counter-productive. Sometimes he even goes out of his way to cause a commotion. You on the other hand are a valuable editor, aside from the fact that you circlejerk with minion s: rąʂKƴɖooƿɭɘş 01:51, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I've yet to have a positive experience involving a build that Minion had involved himself with. In fact, that generally seems to be the point at which discourse spirals into yelling matches lately. I could be under a slight observation bias since I follow builds around here even less closely than I follow Kim Kardashian's love life so the only time I see anything is when it goes to one of the couple talk pages I watch, but the point stands. Danny 09:38, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * This is quite rapidly turning into Juze no. 2. We all know what happened to him ;) - <font color="CornflowerBlue">Athrun <font color="CornflowerBlue">Feya [[Image:Athrun snow sig.gif]] 22:46, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Was I involved in that? I feel like I was involved in that. I don't really remember what happened, but I feel like that may have been when I pressed the magic shitstorm button I used to have. Danny 03:16, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
 * It's been gradual rather than rapid-- Relyk 05:16, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Just realised this block explanation and the one for Minion are almost exactly the same. Don't even remember writing this. - <font color="CornflowerBlue">Athrun <font color="CornflowerBlue">Feya [[Image:Athrun snow sig.gif]] 10:25, 4 January 2012 (UTC)