Build talk:E/any PvE Invoke Lightning

Thoughts?
Thoughts? Symeon 14:06, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Looks fine but I suspect the air variant of Build:E/A Assassin's Promise would have a similar effect? -- [[image:Chieftain Alex Sig.jpg|19px|link=User:Chieftain Alex]] Chieftain  Alex  14:08, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * More overall AoE damage though. Symeon 14:13, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm all for this Smity Smitington 16:50, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * it's not hard to get Weaken Armor on a hero or use Shellshock (potentially with epidemic as noted), leave it as optional to free up the secondary. drop shock arrow for ebsoh-- Relyk 19:34, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I ran what what basically this for a while when I was messing around with my new ele, it was OK, but not great. For a bit of a laugh I replaced Invoke with Thunderclap, which can have some fun results. In the end I just went emo because thats the only thing which eles are used for nowadays. Kracatoan 19:52, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Plese don't take WA on your own bar, use a hero's. Other than that; standard ele bar. Meta. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 20:11, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I dont think people use invoke often in pve excluded...-- Relyk 20:35, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * They *shouldn't* be running it, but there are alot of players not running or refuse (elitst jews) to run AP. This is pretty much the bogstandard bar those people run.  Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 21:02, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Searing Flames is still the PvE meta lolzor Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 21:06, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Personally I like having cracked on demand without microing a hero, but I'll take it out and leave as an optional. Attune and ELord alone are not enough e-management for this build (10e spells every ~3s), needs either Shock Arrow or GoLE. Intensity, EBSoH and GoEP are all roughly equal damage buffs so I'll leave spaces and list those as optionals too. Symeon 20:57, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * There ain't much reason to run this over AP =/ Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 21:00, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * immediate gratification?-- Relyk 21:08, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * AP is better only because of the PvE skills, not the meagre options an elementalist can tack onto it. In relation to the AP builds of other classes it is far inferior. This build is probably the best HM damage option which is unique to the elementalist. Symeon 21:30, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * And also not everyone runs discordway, which AP needs to be most effective Symeon 21:32, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Nonsense. Most of the damage from Discord was the human bar anyway, the PvE skills got a spike, but chain/LBall were powerful on their own, especially without recharge. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 21:36, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * No AP has the best damage and aoe knockdown/blind, it doesn't matter shit if it consists out of PvE skills because it is P V E. lol Discord Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 21:39, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The point here is: any class can run AP, and the ele version is not all that great. You're also comparing builds designed for different purposes - Invoke is entirely dedicated to AoE, whereas AP focuses on individual kills while powering whatever extras you bring along. When I said it was the best ele-unique HM damage option, I was referring to AoE. Symeon 21:54, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Chain Lightning without a recharge is a pretty cool guy. Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 22:52, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * It's only 6s anyway though. Aftercast and then few seconds for AP'd guy to die, not much difference. And with Invoke + Chain you effectively have a 3 second recharge (lol theorycraft). I accept your general argument Re:AP, I'm just suggesting this is a decent alternative with more AoE damage - better than fire builds which mostly suck in HM. Symeon 23:19, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * AP gives spike spam, invoke gives spammy spam.-- Relyk 03:35, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * While I don't think there's a very good reason to keep it around, it is rather common by people who don't know that AP/Emo are best. That being said, this should just be merged with the Hero version and then just list 2 bars like with the rest of hero/player builds. Roland 03:43, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * no-- Relyk 03:58, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I appreciate the explanation. Roland 07:18, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Gotta agree with Roland on this one, just merge the build with the hero version. The builds are practically the same and both belong in the "good" category. Well imo they don't even deserve to be stored because an ele with mistrust does more damage lol, but you get the point. Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 08:20, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * But Jeydra runs AP Air! Perhaps if we trash this then put it on the main page in big letters, bad players will stop using it? Minion Minion_sig_k_bish.jpg 08:25, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Or eles can just go dagger spam. xD Vorpal [[Image:Vorpal_Signature_1.jpg|19px]] 08:30, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * On merging this with the hero page, I'd point out that panic has separate player and hero pages. The fundamental difference being: the player bar stacks as much damage as possible, while the hero bar keeps the core skills and brings e-management/cross profession utility. The case is pretty much the same here. I'll put this into testing now and people can rate/trash based on whether they think it deserves its own page or not. Symeon 10:12, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Good and Bad
Two things. Epidemic and WA do not go on this bar; there are 64 skills to use spread over 8 characters, most of the time. Please make builds with those other slots in mind... It saddens me when you get sin bars with SoH on them or a ranger with Splinter or Epidemic to spread poison. So, in the Notes, just note the synergy between putting Weaken Armor on a character in your team; doesn't have to be very high spec- CA is CA. Epidemic doesn't even require an attribute, it's that bad. This is actually a "good" bar, by any standard. You have free attributes, it only uses the primary profession, meaning it's good enough to use while skill capping or taking more utility for the team (I think if you maintained GDW on two melees it would deal more damage than your whole bar but heh)  Minion  18:07, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Done. As I said before it's just my personal preference to control cracked spreading without microing a hero, but w/e. Symeon 18:15, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

January 15, 2012 update
I don't think the update has rendered this completely useless in PvE. Because you're not fighting non-stop in PvE, there's plenty of time for the exhaustion to wear out, although I'd be tempted to take Chain Lightning off the mainbar. It might be an idea to move this to and list Invoke under optional elites, along with Elemental Attunement and Thunderclap. Random Weird Guy 13:37, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Have you used this or an Invoke hero recently? Exhaustion will gradually take over your blue bar as the run goes on, especially if you use 2x Fall Back (which you should). Also, no need to take ChainL off mainbar when you can just free up the elite with minimal difference. It's been fun while it lasted but this is archive material now R.I.P. :( Fianchetto 19:01, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Updated
I've seen a bunch of people either playing this elementalist or suggesting to do so, so despite the nerf of chain lightning this still has some popularity. I'd also say that it is sufficiently effective to be in the build namespace. Any objections? --Krschkr (talk) 19:35, 18 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Sadly with the new standards here this and many other ele builds just don't fit. An ele running Mesmer skills just out do what this can do even making this bad. No point in keeping it. As mesmers have armor ignoring damage making armor pen useless outside low level areas as well as better shutdown and aoe. Shadeinthebox (talk) 14:53, 9 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Air magic isn't as bad as you make it look. Nonetheless it'd be nice if you added the E/Me build you're mentioning as we don't seem to have it right now. --Krschkr (talk) 17:11, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

Archiving Proposal
A comparison of thunderclap + chain lightning with shell shock + invoke lightning will show that it's a stronger combo. And I wouldn't mind if this build was broadened up to cover invoke, thunderclap, bsurge (and lsurge) like the hero page. But it should be kept in the build space. Therefore I disagree with archiving this. --Krschkr (talk) 17:10, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
 * We keep good builds, not just the very best.
 * This is still one of the better, especially better in general elementalist builds. It will fall behind in comparison with a fire elementalist in areas like Urgoz's Warren where you fight a dozen foes in a small area at once. But that's usually not the case. In most of PvE you fight smaller groups of foes, often standing not tightly balled but rather slightly spread out (which is ideal for invoke's/chan lightning's AoE behaviour). The fire build, on the other hand, will suffer much more from armor ratings and burning immunity in other areas where the air elementalist will simply be superior.
 * Builds based mainly on the secondary profession shouldn't push aside builds based mainly on the primary profession even if they're better in some situations. There are a few things which work well no matter the primary profession (like JFD, spirit builds) but that doesn't mean that we archive other builds because it's hard to compete with a well supported dagger build for the majority of builds.
 * I also disagree with archive. The reason given "Invoke Lightning largely pointless over Chain Lightning, different elite can be taken" I'm assuming is referencing the other vetted air build which is built around EA. That build does not perform as well as this one. Juniper real (talk) 16:28, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I'd say EA is a waste for air magic. We'd be better off trying to include air magic elite skills which contribute to damage and utility (blinding surge, thunderclap). Glimmering mark is very interesting, too, but would probably deserve its own page if it turns out to be a viable build core.--Krschkr (talk) 17:31, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
 * The casting time difference between invoke and chain is also pretty significant on its own. More DPS and less interrupts. Sonofthort (talk)
 * For me the casting time difference mainly influences how easily intensity can be controlled. --Krschkr (talk) 14:54, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I'd usually have preferred to wait for a reply of the person who proposed the archival to check whether our points were convincing or there still are issues to talk about, but I doubt that Shade will enter a discussion about this. Still, broadening this up to support more elite skills is a desideratum. --Krschkr (talk) 17:52, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
 * desideratum is a very seldomly used word. Also, I think it’s worth exploring other air elites given the discussion history (for whatever reason) largely ignores direct comparison. I’ll also reiterate dual attune air is decidedly worse than this Juniper real (talk) 22:36, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Ah, my bad for removing the tag, I'm not great at this wiki thing. I simply read the archive proposal text "If you disagree with this build's archiving, please explain why on its talk page. If this page obviously should not be archived, or if you intend to fix it, please remove this notice, but do not remove this notice from articles that you have created yourself." It seemed appropriate to remove this tag, because the reason provided "largely pointless over chain lightning", I believe is simply not correct, and I stated why I believe this. Many people steer away from the 2 second cast time spells simply because of the cast time. I believe invoke is a very popular skill anyways, and a "good" rating seems ok to me. If the original archiver disagrees, perhaps just provide more detail in the reason, because there seems to be confusion. As for adding more elite options to this page, I am not sure I see the need, but I could be wrong. Maybe if a separate "general air ele" build page was created and vetted, we could simply merge or remove this build. I just wouldn't want subpar elites squeezed into the page, when they would most likely not receive a good rating on their own. Sonofthort (talk)

Cleanup
Needed a little updating imo. Some of the main-bar could be updated or generalized, and some optional skill choices are missing. Took a first pass, feel free to make changes. I can kind of see why a "general air ele" build was suggested, because we could go pretty crazy with the optional skills here (hard to find an optimal set), and could be some overlap with other elites. For optionals, there are more PvE skills, secondaries, and potentially other elemental attributes to consider. Sonofthort (talk)
 * It's better to keep more skills in the main bar, especially if you'll most likely end up taking them anyway (intensity and elemental lord). Makes it easier for inexperienced players to grab a proper bar without a lot of reading and consideration and also really helps with the script that makes the build packages for download – a build with 4 optionals is just 4 skills in there. People still use the download function, so that's something to keep in mind. Also, don't forget to update the usage section when changing the main bar. ;) --Krschkr (talk) 02:53, 1 December 2018 (UTC)