User talk:Jioruji Derako/User Builds/A-any Critical Fox

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Just finished a re-write of the entire build. the new Way of Perfection buff makes it a staple in critical builds now; the buffs to Golden Fox Strike and Wild Strike make them perfect choices as well. And Critical Strike deals plenty of damage, not to mention the on-demand criticals. Heart of Shadow may seem like a strange choice, but trust me on this one; it does a great job of dropping some aggro in PvE, and is a huge boon against any mob that does damage. Shouldn't be hard to find one of those. It's also helpful for fleeing, as the range is normally enough to shadowstep you to the edge of the mob, if not out. Any suggestions? -- Jioruji Derako.> 02:36, 20 August 2007 (CEST)

P.S.: This build does work on a Hero... but I can't vouch for how well it works yet. If anyone else could give feedback on that particular usage, I'm debating dropping the Hero tag from the build, or adding notes for Hero usage. -- Jioruji Derako.> 00:25, 21 August 2007 (CEST)


 * As the build is now, Heros don't even have access to some of the more important skills, such as Critical Agility. I'm dropping the Hero tag in this case; for it to work on a Hero it needs to be modified anyways, so I'll leave that up to the players. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Jioruji Derako.> 09:30, 28 August 2007 (CEST)

@Rapta's vote: How exactly do you mean, "the combo is slow recharging"? 4 seconds is as fast as it gets for dagger attacks, with the exception of Moebius/Death Blossom. GFS and Wild Strike are the two highest in bonus damage for their respective types, and both unblockable as well, with stance removal thrown in too. The DPS is very solid, and the dagger attacks aren't any slower then anything else, without giving up your elite slot... I don't doubt you dislike the build, but I can't understand your reasoning. The only thing faster as far as attack chains or DPS is the aforementioned Moebius/Death Blossom, but that obviously falls under your other statement, "Spamming dagger attacks is a waste of time". What exactly is a PvE Assassin supposed to do to kill foes then? -- Ĵĩôřũĵĩ Đēŗāķō.> .cнаt^  19:43, 28 August 2007 (CEST)


 * I believe the key phrase in that is "with the exception of Moebius/Death Blossom". The unbockable part is nice, but if you have a combo that's specifically designed to get through defenses, I would like to see it not end at the Offhand. Skills like Shield Guardian (annoying shiroken), Aegis (annoying margonites) will still block Critical Strike. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 05:34, 31 August 2007 (CEST)


 * Additionally, with IAS (or even without IAS) your combo would end very quickly. And even through that, it is often found in PvE that the target dies before you even land your offhand. The downtime here is very annoying (found that out myself in Factions when I tried to make Flashing Blades useful). The entire problem of your defenses falling apart can be solved by taking Wild Blow - leaving 5 slots free for something else. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 05:38, 31 August 2007 (CEST)


 * The problem I have with switching out Critical Strike is a lack of options; Death Blossom could always go in, of course, and the short recharge makes it easy to spam. The first two attacks can generally rip off most of the blocking problems you might have, leaving only enchantments and skills; you don't see that too often in PvE anyway. All the other Dual Attacks are generally weighed down by long recharges, and in PvE especially, being able to quickly switch targets is important. I use Critical Strike simply because it has good synergy with the rest of the build, but you're right, it's not an important part.
 * While I would rather not dismantle that particular part of the build, it is /any for a reason; that Wild Blow suggestion is a great idea, I think, and also frees up two skillslots. Do you happen to have any A/W suggestions for those two slots? One thing I want to stress with this build is flexibility; it's not the fastest possible kill, perhaps, and it's not a tank, but as far as 'Sins go in PvE, it's got a good amount of survival, what with the block chance, the extra armor, and the healing on nearly every other hit. I would love to expand the variants for a few good secondaries, such as /Warrior (I've already got a rather nice /Dervish setup down there, which works quite well). If you've got ideas, by all means, add them yourself, or just mention some skills and I'll work up a good variant for it. This build isn't the top-tier in builds, but it's easy to use and does it's job well; I like the idea of a fun, fairly simple vetted build out there. If Way of the Assassin was easier to cap for a newbie 'Sin, it would be even better (having to take a detour into Nightfall isn't that bad, but still adds complication). --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Ĵĩôřũĵĩ Đēŗāķō.> .cнаt^  06:01, 31 August 2007 (CEST)

Vote Discussion (old)
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First off, I'd like to comment on Rapta's rating. You brought up a lot of good points I think; in the previous form, the article was overly wordy, explained many things that didn't need explaination, and so on. I re-wrote the article in shorter, more concise form, I believe; should be better now. One thing that was confusing me slightly was your mention of the build having a lack of "AoE". Are there a lot of Assassin AoE skills out there that are normally used? Or did you simply mean to say that Death Blossom should have been in the skillbar? As far as I know, aside from that single skill, Assassins aren't normally prided on their AoE damaging abilities... -- Jioruji Derako.> 03:27, 5 July 2007 (CEST) &mdash; ''The preceding comment was brought to you by the leetness of Jioruji Derako. a.k.a. u got served. Nova did not write this comment.''


 * Three builds that I have seen have great DPS and AoE damage: the Barrager, the Scythe sin, and the many Death Blossom spammers (one with moebius, one without). Any of them can have Critical Agility slipped on them and have increased DPS. This build lacks AoE, but has an unblockable combo. Now think, is that really useful in PvE? To answer that, no, isn't. Mass damage is much important. It's not one of those rip-a-single-target-into-two Assassin builds either. Therefore, this build's just not good for PvE (not to mention the slow recharging attacks). I've seen many innovative uses for the combo of GFS + FF + NTS in GvG to bypass the current Aegis/DA/SoD metagame, used with AoD + Combo + Impale, but overall, it's just not a good combo in PvE. The defense is weak too; get pounded on by spells and attacks that bypass your 75% block, you get to 50%, anything will kill you (Shroud simply sucks). Way of the Assassin is a shitty Critical Eye, and if you replace that, you're left with a pretty nice elite slot that can be used for something else. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 18:34, 6 July 2007 (CEST)


 * Ah, thanks a lot for the feedback. I can see what you mean on a lot of points; the overall damage isn't as high as some other builds, it doesn't use an AoE-type attack, and the unblockable combo isn't very useful in PvE (with the exception of fighting Kournan Bowmen and whatnot).
 * I still don't think it's necessarily a bad build simply because of those points; in my personal opinion, the flaw with many other PvE Assassin builds is that they focus too much on offense and not as much on defense. I like how this build works defensively; sure, Critical Defenses can't stop spells, but it does stop melee. Your average 'sin doesn't use much defense against either one; narrowing your weaknesses makes it easier to work around them. Shroud of Distress is meant simply to keep WotA active; if you're at 50% health, like you said, next spell's probably your last. But the extra block chance might give you a moment's leeway to get Shadow Refuge up quckly, which can be useful.
 * My hopes for this build would be to take pressure off the Monk in a full PvE group, at least a little bit; add some utility skills for taking out some of the harder foes (blocking skills do show up fairly often in PvE); and encourage playing smart. As a 'sin, you're not the tank, and you shouldn't be the party's only source of damage either. But you should be a helpful boon, and do more then your share of kills. Don't forget that I'm always going to be biased in favor of this build, but that doesn't mean I'm not listening to your points. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Jioruji Derako.> 23:24, 6 July 2007 (CEST)

Discussion
Before I hit the main points of the dicussion & have evreybody either hate me & lable me a noob.......

Personally, I have to say that Im not too sure how this build passed the Guildwiki vetting Process.

& b4 we go into the bad points of the build. lets hit the good points....

1. this build offers great defence against a plethora of melee classes 2. Most attacks are unblockable (if you are under enchantment)

Ok heres the bad points & we will try to categorise them in PvE & PvP points.

PvE:

1. Critical Defences - 13 Critical Defences will give you 9 seconds of playtime & it supposedly refreshes itself each time you land a critical hit, which with this build isnt a problem at all. now what happens if youve run out of things to kill? youve got 30seconds of 'downtime' to contend with where you can either do nothing & wait for it. or u can run into another fight& get your ass pwnd as this is one of the skills that this build heavily utilises.

2. Shroud of Distress - this skill isnt as negative as Critical Defences but still Negative as it is an 'enchantment

PvE Summary:

Some might say that I'm crying or bitching about nothing & that Im not saying anything that hasnt been said before. which leaves me to say that due to the high maintenace & 'up keep' of the build also with the down time of critical defences taken into account this build is probably best going around 'early' in each of the campaigns before you will eventually run into a group of mesmers in every single area which will strip you down to your pants thus making this build unfeasible as well as obselete...so goes the question....

'How the Hell did this build past Vetting?'

PvP:

same reasons as above but for PvP use I cant stress how much the downtime on Critical Defences is going to hurt also stay away from the MESMER shrine & possibly the Necromancer Shrine in AB (Necro's Sometimes Use some sorta remove enchantment skill) but in general just to be safe....stay AWAY from ALL mesmers to avoid getting your but kicked by the mob you have run into. the reason I say mob is because you've got no choice but to look for 1 to get the most out of your build before critical Defences goes down for the count again leaving you open to getting your ass kicked

Ive used the build extensively in AB & PvE so I am no noob to this build

If it was up to me Id have this build re-vetted as I dont think that this build is still 'Viable' its stilla build but theres no point it being up if people arnt going to use it.

thanks for reading & If u wish to debate this further my email is

Final-Freedom-Eclypse@hotmail.com

62.56.88.225 03:37, 3 June 2007 (CEST)

Freedom Eclipse


 * Alright, let me see if I can provide some good counter-points then...
 * For one, Critical Defenses is not a hard skill to maintain. As long as there's something to kill, then you can keep it up. And when you run out of things to kill, it's not hard to wait for the recharge. Most battles will take about thirty seconds or so, depending on the mob's size; at the end of the fight, you'll be fully recharged and ready to go.
 * Shroud of Distress is an extra buffer, if your health begins to drop; but the main use of the skill is to enable "while enchanted" effects. Critical Defenses isn't something you want to activate too early, obviously; Shroud of Distress has a nice long duration, a small cost, and serves the purpose of keeping Way of the Assassin up and running, as well as it's own effect.


 * Now, Mesmers are obviously a pain in the ass, as are necros. In this situation though, most Mesmers and Necros won't be melee attacking you; so you don't need the enchants for anything other then Way of the Assassin. I personally have no trouble keeping my enchantments up; no build has no weaknesses, and this is no exception. You simply need to take out your weaknesses earlier. Same way enchantment removal works wonders against Dervishes, yet you don't see Dervs simply crumpling to the ground in the face of a few Mesmers.


 * Obviously, you need to be careful in AB with this build, as with any other build. Where a BoA Sin needs to look out for anyone with Blind-inducing skills and snares, this build needs to look out for enchantment removal. The main stength of this build is the ability to take on opposing Warriors and Assassins, and normally win; where a normal Assassin build is usually designed to take down opposing casters. I've had little problems running this build in AB, myself; I've taken on the Mesmer Shrine plenty of times, with average results. But that's really not what the build's for; I aim for the Warrior Shrines, which is my strong point, and have no trouble taking them out.


 * I see your points here, and they're pretty much right on the money as far as the build's weaknesses. But I still think that the weaknesses here aren't quite that bad of a deal; keeping the build's strengths in mind as well, I believe they outweigh the weaknesses. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Jioruji Derako.> 13:05, 3 June 2007 (CEST)


 * Possibly because this is one of the many builds that I have taken around factions & its mainly going aound the lutgardis areas where there seems to be loads of wardens of the mind which make this build pretty useless after theyve stripped your enchantments off. regardless of if your being selective or not (taking out the warden of the mind straight away) before casting the enchantments to me doesnt count at running this build at its full potential.


 * also wardens of the mind always seem to come in pairs, & byy the time youve managed to kill them both theres not much point cast critical defences as the fight is almost over or thats what I would do anyway. I wouldnt say the build on the whole is any less effective - just not as conventional as say a flashing blades build?


 * I agree that each build has its own weaknesses but I cant help feeling a little itch in the back of my head knowing in PvE or AB that if Critical Defences get stripped the game is more or less over as it is possibly unlikely that I wont be able to survive until it fully recharges (30seconds is a long time) you in AB it maybe possible to keep the enchantment up for long periods of time but you cant avoid downtime. it will happen inevitably. then what will you do?


 * as much as I enjoyed taking this build out in PvP & also PvE for me personally. I would look for another build to run. I wouldnt be worried about the enchanments so much in AB but the length of usage for the skill is 9 seconds & down time is 30secs. in my eyes that there is one big no no that really makes me avoid the build when coming to choose builds for whatever situation. I still have the build in my templates but its not in my top 10build list that I would use. purely for a fact that I cant help having a bad feeling that im going to get owned each time I wonder if i should load the build up & take it for a spin...


 * Im not saying that Im looking for a build with skills that I can spam. For example....deaths charge is a utility with a 45sec recharge time....that Im not too worried about as that will rarely get me killed. but where defences are concernd I dont like knowing that I can literally turn my defences on or off if you understand?


 * Defences matter a lot. thats why 30seconds of downtime worries me which is really the bane of this build. sure you can survive. you can survive alot but there will eventually be a time where your more likely to die more then any other time & assassins have enough trouble staying alive as it is.


 * but I guess the saying here is


 * "each to his own" Or "different Strokes for different folks"


 * 62.56.88.225 00:02, 4 June 2007 (CEST)


 * Freedom Eclipse


 * Yes, I see what you mean here. I personally don't have much trouble with the build's weaknesses, but at the same time, I'm the build's creator; it stands to reason that I have a very good understanding of how it all works (not to mention the fact that I'm obviously going to be a little biased towards this build over most other Assassin builds out there). It's a matter of personal preference in a few spots, I think... Flashing Blades gives you a more easily managed defense, as Stance-hate is rare, and it also frees up a skill slot or two. But with FB, you sacrifice the use of Way of the Assassin, which gives you better energy management and slightly better damage, even if it is a little harder to maintain, especially in the face of enchantment-hate.


 * If you like using the build, but don't enjoy the weaknesses, then have you tried the A/D variant? (I don't know if you have Nightfall or not...) Anyway, the A/D variant is the one I use just about constantly; there's about no place I've gone where I need to change more then a few skills on the bar. You end up with even more enchantments, but the upside is the short recharges on the Dervish enchants... I run into enchantment removal all the time with that variant, but it's incredibly easy to simply re-cast Mystic Regeneration or Vital Boon and wipe out the enchantment-hater before their enchantment removal even finishes recharging. The constant +9 health regen is also a huge help; I solo the Elite Warrior Shrine on a regular basis, because the three Warriors just can't land enough damage. You still need to avoid Spiking casters such as Air Elementalists, which would normally be an Assassin's target, but I find that fact to be a huge boon in AB; nobody expects the Sin to seek out the Warriors rather then the Monks, for example. I go out of my way to track down, snare, and kill off all the BoA Sins you find wandering around (they can't get through the regen and high block chance fast enough, and they can't block you themselves).


 * But yeah, like you said, "each to his own" is a good example here. Every build fits a different playing style... the maintenance is a big deal in this build, and if you don't want to have to spend the time double-checking if your skills are still active, then this build is fairly annoying to use, and probably not very effective. But if you've got the mind for it, I think it works very well. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Jioruji Derako.> 04:27, 4 June 2007 (CEST)


 * If a SP assassin can keep alive w/ nothing but FN, certainly this Build can. It will remain vetted, unless some horrible nerf completely destroys it. Which is highly unlikely to happen. Readem (talk *pvxcontribs ) 05:36, 4 June 2007 (CEST)

Variant
I made this variant just recently. Instead of Way of the Assassin I use Soldier's Stance + "Watch Yourself!". I use zealous daggers as weapon.

[build prof=assas/warri critic=11+2 dagger=10+1+2 tactics=10][unsuspecting strike][golden fox strike][fox fangs][nine tail strike][critical eye][watch yourself][soldier's stance][critical defenses][/build]

I would like someone to comment this variant.--Arthas 19:30, 4 June 2007 (CEST)


 * Looks pretty good... the synergy between "Watch Yourself!" and Soldier's Stance works very well for an Assassin. My gripe with this though is, you need to sacrifice your self-heal to use it well in this build; you don't have enough attribute points to effectively use any good heal skills.
 * By dropping Way of the Assassin, you lose a good chunk of what makes the build "Critical Fox"... what I would suggest is to take advantage of this fact, tune the build a bit, maybe drop some points from Critical Strikes, and invest in a self-heal (you don't need Unsuspecting Strike, so that leaves you a slot for the heal). From there, you've got a build that's different enough to warrant it's own build page... I think it could be very effective if used right (you have the +armor from "WY!" and the IAS from S'sS, you could even change the attack chain with Critical Strike for even better energy management).
 * How about something like this? (off the top of my head)

[build prof=assas/warri critic=7+1 dagger=11+1+3 tactics=10 shadow=7+1][jagged strike][wild strike][critical strike][critical eye][watch yourself][soldier's stance][critical defenses][shadow refuge][/build]
 * Just a rough, untested idea there, but with the quick recharges on the attack skills and whatnot, you can deal a lot of damage quite quickly, while still having a heal skill and extra armor. Critical Defenses doesn't last as long, but it still lasts longer then the recharge on Critical Strike, so that's no big deal. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Jioruji Derako.> 02:22, 5 June 2007 (CEST)


 * What about healsig? You already have armor and block, and you don't need a thrird attribute. Swiftslash \\  [[Image:Impale.jpg|19px]] 02:32, 5 June 2007 (CEST)
 * Heal sig on a sin = ftl. Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 03:15, 5 June 2007 (CEST)


 * (edit conflict with Readem; damn your fast and true edits)
 * Healsig might work... still, a Warrior has the advantage of the 80+20 armor, while in this case, the Assassin's got 70+18. Not a bg difference, but it's still going to be a little dangerous to use... I haven't tested it or anything, so I can't say which is the better choice. If Healsig works well enough, then you can stick with those three attributes easily... might be more efficient that way. But Shadow Refuge is still a better choice as a self-heal... given the choice between the two, Shadow Refuge (or Feigned Neutrality) would be the better option.
 * Still, I think the final build would be different enough to warrant it's own page. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] <font color="#237d00">Jioruji Derako.> 03:20, 5 June 2007 (CEST)
 * Nice. Seems I might have come up with an idea for a "new" assassin build. --Arthas 17:50, 7 June 2007 (CEST)

Checked and Reviewed
For Viability. <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">pvxcontribs ) 06:54, 7 June 2007 (CEST)

New Variant?
Could you use the new skill Critical Agility instead of using Critical Defences. It would make you attack faster and have more armor. Just a thought
 * Why not both? Super block chance, super attack speed, super armor, and all from two skills! I'll make sure to note Critical Agility as a optional for PvE. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] <font color="#237d00">Jioruji Derako.> 14:29, 15 June 2007 (EDT)

"Save Yourselves!" at a high lvl of kurzick/luxon title track could be used to keep up a constant armor boost of 100 for all other party members. --Arthas 20:28, 2 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Perhaps a dedicated build could make good use of it; Locust's Fury and Critical Agility together would make for some serious adrenaline gain. The problem would be, the Assassin's going to be in the frontlines trying to do this... not only is the 'Sin the easiest one to kill (-100armor, compared to everyone else), but he's also in the perfect position to get pounded. Paragons with Focused Anger are, and probably will be, the best choice for keeping "Save Yourselves!" active.
 * That said, so long as you focus the 'Sin's build on defense as well as attack speed, you could make it work quite nicely. Best off in a team build, where a Monk can be specially equipped to take advantage of the increased armor, and focus on healing the 'Sin (because the rest of the party won't need the healing as much). --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] <font color="#237d00">Jioruji Derako.> 00:51, 3 July 2007 (CEST)
 * Exactly...I run this in PvE with a Healing Whisper and Word of Healing hero taking care of me. I call it The Sound and the Fury.  To be specific:

[build prof=assas/warri critic=11+2 dagger=12+1+1 shadow=6+1][Golden Fox Strike][Wild Strike][Death Blossom][Save Yourselves][Locust's Fury][Critical Agility][Critical Defenses][Way of Perfection][/build] This is with zealous daggers of enchanting, +15%/enchanted, and Nightstalker insignias. Some good variants to use are Unsuspecting Strike, Golden Fang Strike, and Critical Eye instead of Critical Defenses if you need more energy. As long as you have a monk helping you out, you can pretty much carry your team. Works best with other melee like an Avatar of Grenth dervish, and a PBAoE ele with wards (foes, elements). By the way, some interesting numbers: this build attacks more than 2 times per second, 1 in 3 attacks on average is a crit; Way of Perfection on average heals for 15.8 health per second, 22 with Critical Eye; with 9 Shadow Arts instead of 7 those numbers jump to 18.5 health per second and 25 with Critical Eye. DPS hovers around 90-110 according to the Master of Damage.

I've also had good experiences switching to A/D and using Dwayna's Touch or Harrier's Haste in the 4th slot. Also Mystic Regeneration like you've already mentioned. -Rette Alarix 129.105.122.65 19:00, 2 October 2007 (CEST)


 * Oh, I personally love using Featherfoot Grace if I'm running Wind Prayers, but yes, there's a lot of options there. Locust's Fury is also a huge damage boost, and lets you kill foes on autoattack alone. "Fear Me!" is always worth spamming as well, when it's going off about once every two seconds or less. I think my result with this build on the Master of Damage came out to a nice 61 DPS, over a total of 120 seconds; nice and consistent the whole way through, which is something I like in PvE (never fun to wait for recharges in PvE, in my opinion). I would list off variations for different secondary professions in the article, if it wouldn't take up soo much space; Dervish is still my favorite, with Mystic Regeneration, but you can't forget Warrior, for "Fear Me!" if you use Locust's Fury (or even if you don't). What else was good... Vigorous Spirit works nicely as a Monk, "Go For The Eyes!" is nice as a Paragon, and so on. I think the current setup, sans Elite, is a pretty basic Assassin skillbar, and works nicely for almost anything. Even the current DB-MS combo build has nearly the same support skills as the Dervish variant here. Can't go wrong with Critical Defenses, Critical Agility, and stuff like Critical Eye and whatnot. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]]<font color="#237d00"> Ĵĩôřũĵĩ Đēŗāķō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  09:43, 3 October 2007 (CEST)

Rating
I believe this is a GREAT build and should be better acknowledged. Instead of golden fox strike i use jagged strike, instead of critical strike i use death blossom and in the optional spot i use mending, as i wield shiro's blades...AND I OWN! I havent died since i started using this build and i rarely drop below 400 health (my max health is 475). I definately belive that this build should have a higher rating. STRANGER 21:37, 3 September 2007 (CEST)

Never use mending. Just press f12. Tycn 04:44, 16 September 2007 (CEST)


 * Alt+F4's a quicker way to save your Survivor title, I think. :P
 * But yes, the build works exceptionally well on some people, and not-so-great for others. You've obviously got your working perfectly; the dagger chain's completely changeable, based on preference (I simply use the one on the current article because it's proven to be the best in the situation's I've come across). You use Mending to cover the Vampiric, right? If I were you, I'd try the Dervish variant as well; you use Mystic Regeneration in that one. You can keep Mystic active easily between fights, and the massive regen in battle really helps. I've seen variants using Way of Perfection AND Mystic Regeneration, and I've been successfully using the Mystic-only variant since Nightfall came out, almost, so it works either way.
 * If you think the build works, you vote it high. :P Just hope that most other people think it works too. I really could care less what people vote, so long as they're voting honestly. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]]<font color="#237d00"> Ĵĩôřũĵĩ Đēŗāķō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  22:17, 16 September 2007 (CEST)

DW spam?
[build prof=assas/any critic=11+2 dagger=11+1+2 shadow=8+1][Golden Fox Strike][golden fang strike][death blossom][Way of the Assassin][Critical Defenses][Way of Perfection][Critical Agility][optional][/build] imo. Tycn 04:44, 16 September 2007 (CEST)
 * My younger brother uses a variant just like that, to great effect. That even works great with Critical Strike as the dual. There's a bit too many good dagger chains for this build, I think; I'm loathe to add them all in. What I might end up doing is removing the chain from the build entirely, and then just listing some good choices, like Golden Fox as the lead, Wild or Golden Fang as the offhand, Critical or Death Blossom as the dual... and that's just two chains, I've seen even more that work. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]]<font color="#237d00"> Ĵĩôřũĵĩ Đēŗāķō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  22:20, 16 September 2007 (CEST)