Archive talk:A/W Caltrops Spiker

Black Mantis Thrust and Hidden Caltrops seems a little redundant. -- Guild of  Deals  16:50, 9 May 2008 (EDT)
 * The idea is that since someone will realise your chain depends on the cripple from caltrops, they won't kite. With mantis, you get cripple on them whichever way. Lord of all tyria 16:51, 9 May 2008 (EDT)
 * With the short recharge Hidden Caltrops is also pretty useful for kiting as you can cast it on your assailant, hit them with your spear (or daggers if theyre that close) and then run away. Selket Shadowdancer 16:55, 9 May 2008 (EDT)


 * Still, if you did something like Hidden Caltrops->Shadow Step, you could pull of the cripple easy. Anyway, if Hidden Caltrops is removed, it will cause Cripple. Even then, you can't cripple them with BMT without a Hex like HC. --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  16:56, 9 May 2008 (EDT)

Optional is an IAS. -- Guild of  Deals  16:57, 9 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Could also add shadowstep as a replacement for Dash in the main build under variants. The idea as it currently is is that you can easily use a Spear to initiate the cripple, with the short recharge of Hidden Caltrops it shouldn't be too hard to pull off. Not sure about Black Spider Strike, wouldn't the effects of Hidden Caltrops render it useless? If someone else hits the target before you do the hex is removed rendering your spike useless. Selket Shadowdancer 17:00, 9 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Yep. Should not take BSS. God  box   17:09, 9 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I've added it in variants anyway, if anyone feels it shouldn't be there feel free to remove. Selket Shadowdancer 17:10, 9 May 2008 (EDT)
 * IMO, good, but it seems to me that SP and DP in the optional would work so much better. Shadowstep + hex, of course that would make this WELL fodder. I just don't see any advantage over SP and DP in this; sure there's a bit of extra damage, but 15 recharge powerful spike > that. O nvm, you can kite using Hidden, I suppose that's an advantage. Points mentioned previously still stand. - [[Image:GenericWikier1.jpg|19px]] Generic Wiki-er  21:32, 9 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I believe SP and DP has already been done. This version is generally for more versatility on the battlefield as you already pointed out with a better snare for the spike that recharges nice and quickly while allowing you to take a shadowstep or IMS in the optional slot for added universatility. Selket Shadowdancer 07:14, 10 May 2008 (EDT)

While I agree that HC and US makes for a good damage hit, there's a big issue I found when I used US with my HC build, and that it turns into one of three scenarios: 1) Yu hit a moving target with US and HC, resulting in a nasty 160+ damage hit. 2) HC triggers before yu hit US [either by spear or ally hit] which nullifies US secondary damage boost. 3) Target engages yu. This usually hits US secondary damage, but if they're fighting yu, HC doesn't trigger which lops off the last parts of the chain. I use BLS [with 2nd Hex], but any Lead other than US should achieve desired results in any scenario. Kaze 16:27, 10 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I originally had Black Mantis Thrust as the lead attack, giving the crippled application even if they don't move. I'm reverting this back to that so that one way or the other you will get a crippled condition to trigger the full spike. Selket Shadowdancer 16:48, 10 May 2008 (EDT)

Votes
First thankyou most of you for your favoured vote. However I have to point out that Black Mantis Thrust actually has stayed back in the bar for the following reason.. It guarantees a cripple condition. Why? Because if yor target doesn't move you won't cripple them to spike. With them still having a hex on them if they don't move you will still cause a cripple condition. It is actually nessacary for the build (which even I didn't think it would be) if the spike is to be pulled of successfully. Also a shadowstep is offered in variants for those bothered about the mobility issue when using this build.

I ask that everyone who has currently voted consider this and reflect this in their votes if not already done, thankyou. Selket Shadowdancer 17:03, 10 May 2008 (EDT)

done before??
I'm sure i've seena build just liek this before.. ages ago.. but was it not on the wiki? Dutchess of Rose aka  lukejohnson  - talk - Contributions 17:48, 10 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Doubt it or it would have gotten vetted already going by the current votes. Selket Shadowdancer 17:50, 10 May 2008 (EDT)
 * There was a vetted Caltrops spiker a LOOOONG time ago (I think before you were on the Wiki) but it eventually got trashed or archived. --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  17:57, 10 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Checked archives, there's definitely no Archived version. Alot of the time builds get started and unfinished and end up trashed that way though. Selket Shadowdancer 18:15, 10 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Hmmm. must have been in-game then... but that was like about 7/8 months ago. Surprised I haven't seen it on before now. Dutchess of Rose  aka  lukejohnson  - talk - Contributions 13:48, 13 May 2008 (EDT)

Arenas
Would this possibly be viable in TA & GvG aswell? Selket Shadowdancer 18:14, 10 May 2008 (EDT)

IAS...
My primary class is a sin... and with Jungle Strike i really don't see much of a need for an IAS. Yes it makes chain faster, but it's enough to kill if you're team is even adding a slight amount of pressure. Dutchess of Rose aka  lukejohnson  - talk - Contributions 14:00, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
 * 5 skill chain=Take IAS. Don't not take one if you have the room on your bar. The quicker you pull off your spike the better. Selket Shadowdancer 16:58, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
 * pffft. I'm amazing with a sin, and i almost never take an IAS, in fact i'd go as far to say i don't like them... however, i do love 1/2 and 3/4 attack skills and an IAS on a WARRIOR only Dutchess of Rose  aka  lukejohnson  - talk - Contributions 12:06, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Just some advice - people won't pay much attention to what you say if you proclaim youself amazing at pressing 123456. There's no reason whatsoever to not take an IAS here. --[[Image:Ibreaktoilets_Signature.jpg|User:Ibreaktoilets|20px]]Tab  Moo  12:20, 14 May 2008 (EDT)

Changes
Are welcome, but please discuss them (nice to actually know why changes are being made) before adding any to the main page. Thanks. Selket Shadowdancer 17:06, 13 May 2008 (EDT)

Votes
"2 cripple sources, Flurry, and no shadowstep/ mobility waste of an elite to be honest. Shalst I go on? Caltrops isn't good, You have 2 cripple sources and Caltrops' ONLY use basicly is the "48 damage" which is nothing to be proud of. Blades of Steel can outdo that damage with one of its two hits. Very poor build. Also flurry is a big problem for that the damage being used is effected and Costs 5 energy per dagger chain. If you knew Innovation, you would know that Assassins with snares are better off with flail (no energy btw). Not good at all for HB matches. Shadowprison>this."
 * Crossfire

Caltrops and Black Mantis Thrust: Try and make one work without the other. If your target doesn't move if another lead is taken you fail to snare. With HC being a Hex BMT will snare if the target doesn't move. You can also snare the target from range if he does move by using your spear. Lastly if the hex is removed the cripple condition is still applied and the hex allows the chain to be pulled off in as short a time as the chain allows. As for the only use being for extra damage, hardly. You can use it to setup your spike, and kite away from pursuing attackers, the extra damage is a bonus. Also feel free to take Blades of Steel and lose your Deep Wound (which is more beneficial than Blades of Steel).

Mobility: Look in variants for the optional slot, you will notice Dash, Dark Prison, and Deaths Charge are offered.

Flurry: Complaining about 5 energy in a build that doesn't have any energy problems is laughable. Flail slows your movement, requires adrenaline to be built up, and would require a cancel stance which would mean taking a shadow step would be inapproiate. Damage reduced is base damage only not bonus damage which matters very little.

Shadow Prison: Lol, enjoy your extended downtime, enough said.

Very poor build: The only poor thing here is your vote really as it shows a complete lack of understanding of how the build actually works and how it should be used. Selket Shadowdancer 18:13, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * stop QQing lol--X [[Image:Crossfire Godlysig.png|19px]] 14 20:03, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * That's not QQing, its a constructive debate against your vote because I disagree with your reasoning. Selket Shadowdancer 21:19, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Your the one writing a whole paragraph that wont change my vote not me.--X [[Image:Crossfire Godlysig.png|19px]] 14 21:26, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Are you just going to sit here and QQ about me disagreeing with you? If you have nothing further to add then just dont post, simple. Selket Shadowdancer 21:30, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * YOUR THE ONE CRYING OVER MY VOTE LOL.--X [[Image:Crossfire Godlysig.png|19px]] 14 21:54, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * "That's not QQing, its a constructive debate against your vote because I disagree with your reasoning."I see you can't read very well, and it's plainly obvious you are just trolling now because you still haven't awnsereded towards anything about the actual build. Trying to wind me up by telling me I'm "QQing" isn't going to work, grow up and show some maturity. If you can't hold a simple and civil discussion about your vote then please (which is plainly obvious seems you haven't been able to construct an arguement against the points I've raised against your vote), as already politely said, don't post. This is a talk page about the build, not your personal opinion about my emotions. Selket Shadowdancer 04:33, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * You are fighting over a very bad build. Would you ever run this over a shadow Prison assassin?  Hidden caltrops is bad stop trying to convince me it is good with long, detailed paragraphs because i dont rly care.--X [[Image:Crossfire Godlysig.png|19px]] 14  06:55, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Shadow Prison is overated. It has lengthier downtime, and has poor defense in comparison to using Hidden Caltrops. So yes I would run this over Shadow Prison. I wouldn't say this was a "very bad build" but looking at your laughable vote I most definitely wouldn't say it was Trash either, and neither did 8 other people. Seems more likely that you just cant come up with a solid arguement why Hidden Caltrops or even the build itself is bad to me and just want to try and pick holes in my character rather than debate against the build itself, considering I've covered pretty much every point you've tried to make against it. If you don't care then, again, just stop posting. Selket Shadowdancer 07:12, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * You sir just made me LOL my pants wet. Plz lrn to PvP.  HC =/= SP.  shadow Prison is the best elite for assassins and stop proving it otherwise because its irritating.  Ask any other PvXer and Admin.  They will agree.--X [[Image:Crossfire Godlysig.png|19px]] 14  16:10, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Insults dont really validate your case. Shadow Prison is not the best elite for assassins, not anymore, and certainly not for every assassin build out there (Shattering Assault anyone?). Selket Shadowdancer 06:05, 22 May 2008 (EDT)
 * 'shadow Prison is the best elite for assassins and stop proving it otherwise because its irritating' <--- ur f*ing kidding right? after how long u've played gw u throw around the 'best skill' argument? --Kkagari 11:24, 17 August 2008 (EDT)

moved from AN
Well i meant like high votes. This isnt a good build either, and the votes are too biased.--X 14  18:11, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * And how would you say the votes are biased? They reflect an indviuals personal view of the build, just like you did. Seems like someone has a bit of a grudge to me. Selket Shadowdancer 18:20, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Youre using caltrops. Having a Hidden Caltrops build in "Great" irritates me.
 * It was (Still is) in "Good". Even I wont say its "Great" (and I didn't rate it so either), but then its certainly not "Trash" worthy either. Selket Shadowdancer 18:28, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Whats so good about HC anyway?--X [[Image:Crossfire Godlysig.png|19px]] 14 18:29, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I've given you the chance to discuss it on the builds talk page. Might be best to continue this there and not here on the AN. Selket Shadowdancer 18:30, 14 May 2008 (EDT)

Recharge time
With Twisting Fangs, you have a 15 second recharge, and with that you might as well take a Shadow Prison sin because you're not getting the most out of your fast-recharging hex. For a fast-recharge, I would take BMT->Wild Strike->T.Ox->FSS->BoS. This will allow you to spike twice on the same cripple, although I'm not sure about how well your energy would keep up. Overall it's a very good build, but there isn't much reason to take this over SP.і†оκαҐυ 18:36, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I'll add BoS to variants. Selket Shadowdancer 18:38, 14 May 2008 (EDT)

Actually I'm going to remove it. Also this:

[Build prof=Assassin/Warrior Cri=12+1 Dag=11+1+1 Sha=6+1][Hidden Caltrops][Flurry][Black Mantis Thrust][Jungle Strike][Trampling Ox][Falling Spider][Blades of Steel][Optional][/build]

Could really do with Deep Wound, I do like the quicker recharge though. Selket Shadowdancer 18:44, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I perfer TF > BoS. I'm not a big Wild Strike person unless on a spam chain (Like PvE and stuff). I'd perfer something like Jungle Strike. --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  19:03, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Was actually supposed to be Jungle Strike in the above build (changed to reflect). I added Falling Spider and Blades of Steel as a possible variant on the main page to reduce recharge to 10 seconds. Selket Shadowdancer 19:07, 14 May 2008 (EDT)

This needs a shadowstep in the main bar. NEEDS. -Shen 19:11, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * What do you suggest then? Two are offered in variants. I don't see the big deal with the slot being optional. Selket Shadowdancer 19:15, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * May seem kind of stupid, but Death's Charge wouldn't hurt. Shadow Walk doesn't allow you to use an IAS, and Dark Prison costs a lot. Just Walk in and then hit them with an attack. --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  19:17, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Added. Usage and variants changed to reflect changes made. Selket Shadowdancer 19:22, 14 May 2008 (EDT)

If you used Fox Fangs, you still retain the 1/2 second attack, only lose 30 damage, and it has an 8 second recharge to fit in with the rest of the build. (The quick recharge one, that is). Just an idea.

Crossfire's vote
The build now has a Shadowstep, and he doesn't get the HC = Cheap, low recharge snare. Being able to spike whenever your attacks recharge, not whenever your Hex recharges, makes a low downtime spike. Black Mantis Thrust I can see not being in the main bar (Unsuspecting I would use), but I think it's meant for Hex-heavy teams where if Caltrops gets removed, you can give Cripple again. -- Guild of  Deals  07:23, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * It is meant for Hex heavy teams as stated in the builds description. You are 100% correct. However if your target doesn't move when you strike them with Unsuspecting Strike you won't be able to pull off the full chain. However I'll add Unsuspecting Strike to variants. Selket Shadowdancer 07:25, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Why not use Shadow Prison. What makes this better.  Explain--X [[Image:Crossfire Godlysig.png|19px]] 14  09:36, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I shouldn't need to if you actually read how to use the build and read already presented arguements. You seem to be under the impression that HC is mainly used to cause extra damage, its not. It's primary purpose is to give a quick recharging hex to start your chain Less downtime due to quick recharging primer hex, cripple is guaranteed (even if the hex is removed or the target stands still), HC can be used defensviely to kite by hexing then hitting your target with your Spear, target can be crippled constantly from the quick recharge and removal of the hex if you keep the conditions covered. If used right it makes for good pressure in a hex/condition heavy team. The extra damage is just a bonus. Selket Shadowdancer 09:54, 15 May 2008 (EDT)

AN Discussion
the 5-5-5ish votes do not match the build for it is not a great build. Plz look them over--X 14  18:07, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Noone rates it over 4...  18:08, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Except that one guy.  18:09, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Well can someone please look ever the votes above 3.5 because this is not a "good" or "great" build. It uses Caltrops :P--X [[Image:Crossfire Godlysig.png|19px]] 14  06:58, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * No offense Crossfire, but you've CONSTANTLY been reapplying your vote despite multiple removals by admins and BMs. The build works and it works well, stop whining. --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  07:20, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * 2 cripple sources and HC only does like 48 damage. no point.  It can pass for an "other" build but definitely not good or great.--X [[Image:Crossfire Godlysig.png|19px]] 14  09:35, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * See build discussion for explanation of how HC works in the build. You're entitled to your opinion and your vote providing it shows accurate understanding of the build but you clearly have not shown it yet, regardless of numerous attempts by various people to show you. Also you say it can pass for "other" yet you still rated it "trash"? These points have been brought up to you numerous times on the builds talk page, please keep discussion relating to the build there instead of flooding the AN. Selket Shadowdancer 10:01, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * If there was a non elite shadowstep that did damage, this would be a great build. Otherwise not rly that much.--<font color="black" face="hyborian">X [[Image:Crossfire Godlysig.png|19px]] 14  10:07, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * The votes are all fine. --[[Image:Ibreaktoilets_Signature.jpg|User:Ibreaktoilets|20px]]<font color="Black">Tab  <font color="Black">Moo  12:10, 15 May 2008 (EDT)

Why...
Does the build even HAVE hidden caltrops when you need to use an attack skill that applies cripple anyway... which only applies cripple if you hit a guy with hidden caltrops on him? Am I missing something obvious here? Couldn't you put any other hex in the build and have it be just as good (better, even, since you could have a hex that actually DOES something?) Pluto 13:33, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Read the notes, it's not just as hex primer <font color="Red">Frost  <font color="Pink">eeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!  13:36, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * "It's primary purpose is to give a quick recharging hex to start your chain Less downtime due to quick recharging primer hex, cripple is guaranteed (even if the hex is removed or the target stands still), HC can be used defensviely to kite by hexing then hitting your target with your Spear, target can be crippled constantly from the quick recharge and removal of the hex if you keep the conditions covered. If used right it makes for good pressure in a hex/condition heavy team." Selket Shadowdancer 13:58, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Yea read that <font color="Red">Frost  <font color="Pink">eeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!  14:24, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I think this is one of those builds where an elites being used for the sake have having used it before. --[[Image:Ibreaktoilets_Signature.jpg|User:Ibreaktoilets|20px]]<font color="Black">Tab  <font color="Black">Moo  14:27, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * No not really. Selket Shadowdancer 15:19, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Still, I would run Unsuspecting > Black Mantis. Much more damage and less redundant. --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  15:53, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Then you can be countered by not moving. Seems kind of an easy condition to fulfill, no?і†оκαҐυ 15:59, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * You hit them once and HC Cripples them. Just Shadow Stepping -> attacking is a decent snare. Even if they remove it with Veil, they still get Crippled. --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  16:01, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * If they don't move, they don't get crippled. Just don't remove it, and they can't do shit.  16:12, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * It really depends on how you want to snare them. You could run US and just hit them with a Spear until they do move, as soon as they do they're crippled and you can teleport and spike. If they decide to stay still then they're shut out of the game (especially melee etc). If the Monk removes the hex, thanks for the free cripple. :) It really depends on your playing style and the team you run with aswell and what they're packing. However as pointed out numerous times, if they dont move and you're NOT running BMT you wont be able to pull off the full spike which is why its in the bar as a safety net to pull off the spike, one way or another. US is offered in variants however for those that wish to try other methods. Selket Shadowdancer 16:54, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Or you could take YAA and not give away your spike target. -<font color="Black">Shen 17:43, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * YAA in HB is... not so great. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] <font color="black" face="calibri">Mafaraxas 20:07, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Yeahbecause when heros are capping solo, there will be allies next to them >.<--<font color="black" face="hyborian">X [[Image:Crossfire Godlysig.png|19px]] 14 20:09, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * I agree with pluto. Why the hell runthis over SP.  Lrn to HB!--<font color="black" face="hyborian">X [[Image:Crossfire Godlysig.png|19px]] 14  20:10, 15 May 2008 (EDT)


 * Yeahbecause there's never situations when there's more than one person at a shrine. There's just better options than YAA; it's too conditional and a good player will adapt quickly.  And Crossfire, we all know you think the build sucks; please stop saying it every other comment. --[[Image:Mafaraxas_sig.jpg|click moar]] <font color="black" face="calibri">Mafaraxas  20:13, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Ill stop when its out of "good" this is not a "good" build--<font color="black" face="hyborian">X [[Image:Crossfire Godlysig.png|19px]] 14 20:17, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * We've all heard your opinion, now stop saying it. You're disrupting the discussion. --71.229 20:32, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Your namez stephen???!!?!?!?!!--<font color="black" face="hyborian">X [[Image:Crossfire Godlysig.png|19px]] 14 20:34, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * No. --71.229 20:38, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * yer userpage?--<font color="black" face="hyborian">X [[Image:Crossfire Godlysig.png|19px]] 14 20:38, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * "Hi, my names Jeremiah Johnson. You may better know me as Guild of Deals. While I'm not trolling the recent changes of PvX or watching low grade porn, I'm making sweet New Jersey love to your mother. Actually, making love to your mother is kind of like a combination of those, as my dick trolls her hallways while she squeals like those people in, well, sleezeball porn." --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  20:41, 15 May 2008 (EDT)

"Lrn to HB!" Learn to read. This isn't just a HB build, it's tagged for three other arenas aswell. RA, AB, and CM. Selket Shadowdancer 20:43, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Who the fuck CMs.--<font color="black" face="hyborian">X [[Image:Crossfire Godlysig.png|19px]] 14 21:07, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Plenty of people if you actually venture into a CM outpost. Selket Shadowdancer 22:01, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * IS it pve or pvp. not sure tbh.--<font color="black" face="hyborian">X [[Image:Crossfire Godlysig.png|19px]] 14  22:08, 15 May 2008 (EDT)
 * CM is PvP. Selket Shadowdancer 03:22, 16 May 2008 (EDT)

I think one of my main issues with this build is that you could put seeping wound in the build, and it would actually be better. Seeping Wound has a pretty bad effect, but at least it has an effect, and its recharge and cost are pretty comparable. That's not a good thing in my eyes since, well, it's goddamn seeping wound, and that skill is bad. That's like saying, "Your Warrior build is bad because Magehunter Strike would be a better elite." It means it has issues. Pluto 04:47, 16 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Seeping Wound doesn't assist you in kiting, it also doesn't fuel your spike if removed (see Trampling Oxs requirements). Also Hidden Caltrops is better pressure than people think because your target either doesn't move (anticipating a spike fueled by the elite) or is crippled (one way or the other) making it a good skill for shutting out players that need to be mobile. Also there's the removal/ending of the hex to consider where the cripple condition is again applied. Should you hit them with your spike and HC doesn't trigger, it will renew the cripple condition from BMT when it does trigger, whether thats by the target being hit when moving, by hex removal or the ending of the hex. Selket Shadowdancer 05:05, 16 May 2008 (EDT)

AN

 * If a Monk removes the hex it cripples? If that's what you are saying then I will change the lead to optional, however it's designed to be used in a hex heavy team so that if you don't have HC recharged (or it's interrupted etc) you can still drop a spike on your target thanks to your team mates. Selket Shadowdancer 07:33, 10 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Read Notes on Hidden Caltrops --[[image:GoD Sig3.jpg|20px]] Guild of  Deals  07:34, 10 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Please refrain from discussing at the Noticeboard. God  box   07:35, 10 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Sorry God. Thanks GoD, editing build accordingly. Selket Shadowdancer 07:37, 10 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Timmy963's vote still needs looking at. Selket Shadowdancer 10:38, 10 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Reverted build to original chain proposed due the issue of target not kiting. Please remove any nessacary votes. Selket Shadowdancer 16:50, 10 May 2008 (EDT)
 * ✅  17:05, 10 May 2008 (EDT)

User Lukejohnson, while his vote is favourable, misunderstands Innovation in his vote. I left a note on his talk page to look at his vote again, if he does nothing about it please look into it, as my understanding is that Innovation is: "Is it or will it ever become meta?" Not: "Is this a great or new concept". If I'm wrong feel free to correct me. Thanks. Selket Shadowdancer 17:12, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Discuss on talk page. I'm reverting, because you could make a legit argument either way. -<font color="Black">Shen 18:20, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
 * "Most of you pvx-ers my find this a relatively new concept with the HC + black mantis thrust, but i for one have seen this used a lot, and for a long time." = Innovation 2? Lol. Can an Admin please clarify what Innovation is? Because from past debates I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with how new the concept of a build is. Selket Shadowdancer 20:58, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Crossfires vote. Selket Shadowdancer 22:19, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Oh and my vote isnt valid why?--<font color="black" face="hyborian">X [[Image:Crossfire Godlysig.png|19px]] 14 22:20, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Learn to read usage, variants, and notes imo. Selket Shadowdancer 22:25, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Lrn to use this--<font color="black" face="hyborian">X [[Image:Crossfire Godlysig.png|19px]] 14 22:28, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Enjoy the ability to spike every 25 seconds. Also... look in variants where a shadowstep is offered for the optional slot for mobility, snare from the shadowstep is not needed as you have cripple on demand as explained in notes. Again... learn to read usage, variants, and notes. It is all clearly explained to you. Selket Shadowdancer 22:32, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
 * My point is you dont need 2 cripple sources. The elite is terribad.--<font color="black" face="hyborian">X [[Image:Crossfire Godlysig.png|19px]] 14  22:33, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
 * Usage, variants, notes. Read them. Selket Shadowdancer 22:38, 13 May 2008 (EDT)
 * See the floating box. Don't dissuades here. Innovation: either is it meta or is it a new idea, the current description allows both contradicting interpretations, therefore any innovation with a reasonable comment is valid, while the majority tend to say it's more metaness than anything, we cant say under the current description that it's not valid to rate meta builds low on innovation. Also from what i can see crossfires vote is perfectly valid. <B><font color="#4F94CD">~PheNaxKian </B> (<font color="Red">T /c) [[Image:Phenaxkian_sig_phoenix.jpg|19px]] 15:53, 14 May 2008 (EDT)
 * This belongs on the build talk page. Please stop adding to the discussion. --[[Image:scottie_bow.jpg|19px]]  Scottie_theNerd  (argue / criticise / complain)  01:09, 15 May 2008 (EDT)

Divert Hexes
I suggest adding that as a counter. It removes the cripple from this as well as the hex. Not commonly seen outside of Shovespike, but still a counter nonetheless. -- ιtокагџ ιѕ   ѕяѕ  вѕлѕ,   мал  15:13, 2 August 2008 (EDT)
 * who uses DH in PvP? <font color="41 69 E1">Ace <font color ="#0099FF">(LVPoW) NO U! 22:22, 2 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Who uses DH anywhere?--<font color=#C68E17>Golden [[image:Goldenstar.JPG|19px]]<font color=#C68E17>Star 22:23, 2 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Not commonly seen outside of Shovespike kthx. -- ιtокагџ ιѕ   ѕяѕ  вѕлѕ,   мал [[Image:ItokaruSignature.jpg|18px]] 00:04, 3 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Used or not it is probably the best counter against this builds elite, so it should by rights be listed. Selket Shadowdancer 05:49, 3 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Hmm, Expel Hexes counters this, Hmmm Cure Hex Counters this, how about, Hex Removal counters this?  Frosty  No U!  05:58, 3 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Because they don't. If you remove the hex the target gets crippled when the hex ends. Alot of people here really don't understand that part of the mechanics of HC. Divert is a big counter to the elite because it removes conditions too. Selket Shadowdancer 06:11, 3 August 2008 (EDT)

Buff(kinda)
Now has a snare, personally I think this is a very strong build now.  Frosty  No U!  04:17, 9 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Agreed, some votes need to be edited to reflect the update changes to the skill, mostly those concerning skill utility as the added snare now frees up an optional slot. Selket Shadowdancer 04:42, 9 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Massacre ran this yesterday, if anyone cares.. [[Image:Beta Rotting Flesh.jpg|17px]]<font color=Green>Kongtorp 07:39, 9 August 2008 (EDT)

Added
Flail, they're snared no matter what so it makes sense tbh  Frosty  No U!  06:51, 10 August 2008 (EDT)
 * I'm removing from main build and adding to variants due to lack of cancel stance. Selket Shadowdancer 07:06, 10 August 2008 (EDT)
 * Nvm, no need if played right. Selket Shadowdancer 07:07, 10 August 2008 (EDT)

Should be reviewed ?
"Hidden Caltrops" description changed 83.194.234.104 04:57, 26 September 2008 (EDT)
 * If you tried to think about it for a few seconds, it's quite obvious this was made after the change or not, but still viable and probably even better  — <small style="font-family:Verdana;font-variant: small-caps;"> Sazzy Pooh [[Image:PinkNautical.jpg]]06:04, 26 Sep 2008 
 * Alot of people have already amended their votes, and in most cases it probably wont change much anyway. Selket Shadowdancer 09:21, 26 September 2008 (EDT)
 * It is much vetter since it is a snare straight away. -- Frosty [[Image:Mini england.jpg|19px]] 11:25, 26 September 2008 (EDT)

Shorter chain
[Build prof=Assassin/Warrior Cri=12+1 Dag=11+1+1 Sha=6+1][Hidden Caltrops][Flail][Black Mantis Thrust][golden fang][Trampling Ox][Falling spider][blades of steel][assassin's remedy][/build]
 * or screw blt and bring golden phoenix and hoto-- Shadow [[Image:Relyk Sig.gif]] 11:02, 3 October 2008 (EDT)
 * How is that shorter? Selket Shadowdancer 11:47, 3 October 2008 (EDT)
 * ...Thats longer lol-- ツ <font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva" color ="black">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva" color="black">Assassin  14:32, 3 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Zzzzz, im too tired to say i was stupid to put in hoto, u would realize this if u guys werent so dumb-- Shadow [[Image:Relyk Sig.gif]] 21:12, 3 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz i fail-- Shadow [[Image:Relyk Sig.gif]] 06:03, 4 October 2008 (EDT)

Nerf
Doesn't effect it. Still works then same only this time you have =0 12 seconds max to hit them once.-- ツ <font face="Monotype corsiva">The <font face="Monotype corsiva" color ="black">Gates  <font face="Monotype corsiva" color="black">Assassin  09:01, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * Yeah why even put the tag...-- Shadow [[Image:Relyk Sig.gif]] 18:18, 10 October 2008 (EDT)
 * removed--<font color="#7B3F00">Simpson Man  14:49, 11 October 2008 (EDT)

nerf
nerfed, flail got raped, caltrops makes ias basically impossiable to use with it now. archive. 01:37, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * notrly, just take flurry->use before you cast--Goldenstar 01:42, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * most people dont cast when tehyre next to people, wel some do, but flrry would be gone by the time you started to spike, [[image:Unreal_sig_1.png‎ ]] 01:44, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Read the new description: Disables all non-assassin skills! Flurry is a non-assassin skill (will submit to recharge). PnH will eat HC alive. Archive pl0x. --BlazingBurdy 14:00, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Read two comments up. - Auron 14:01, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * PnH isn't that common in the arena's this is tagged for. Just do like Goldenstar sez. It has a 1/2 activation attack skill anyway so IAS running out isn't going to kill you. [[Image:Misery_Cow.png|19x19px]] <font color="#00dd00">Misery <font color="#00ee00">Says <font color="#00ff00">Moo   14:02, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd rather use WotA, Grasping Earth, Black Mantis Thrust and own. --BlazingBurdy 19:58, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, so rather than casting your hex when adjacent to your foe you would rather cast your hex while adjacent to your foe AND have a slower IAS. [[Image:Misery_Cow.png|19x19px]] <font color="#00dd00">Misery <font color="#00ee00">Says <font color="#00ff00">Moo   20:00, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, Grasping Earth is nearby, not adjacent, & it has 3/4 cast. In their current forms, I'd say GE just edges out HC.  HC is far too clunky to use w/IAS now.... - [[Image:Ins420sig.png]] 420  20:47, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

un-archive?
bmt's got a 1/2 second activation now. IAS isn't completely necessary since they'll be KD'd until Twisting hits anyway. ··· 17:33, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Pretty solid idea actually, just put dash or ddagger in over IAS? Spikes slowish at the end but will have superb snaring abilites and the ability to spam some solid +damage with your lead + offhand--TahiriVeila 17:35, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * No IAS on trampling, falling, twisting is reaaaallllllyyyyy slow. (they can use woh before twisting hits :/) -- <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Frosty  <span style="font-family:mistral, cursive;">Mc Admin  17:42, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Flurry while you're casting caltrops?--TahiriVeila 17:46, 14 August 2009 (UTC)