Talk: E/A Dagger Spammer

Actually might want more energy storage for a suitable energy buffer between Star Bursts. Toraen (talk) 11:31, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

Justification

This build will be inferior in DPS compared to a Sin dagger spammer with 2 offhands for Death Blossom. A Sin dagger spammer also can bring Save Yourselves.-- Saxazaxx (talk) 15:05, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

So? This is for primary elementalists.Kaizerfreak (talk) 15:52, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Primary Eles should not be in the front lines without a large source of additional armor. Sins have 10 more base armor as well as +15 while attacking. That's 25 more base armor than a caster, not to mention another 24 with IAU. Unless this build will do more damage than a regular assassin with WotA, then Eles should run an all-fire build. It will do more dmg anyway.--Saxazaxx (talk) 01:31, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

The assassin ends up with 15 more armor rating, but IAU is not exclusive to him, it's even listed among the optional skills here. The advantage of this over a fire only star burst elementalist is that dagger attacks, other than the fire magic skills, don't cause scattering, are less dependant on low armor levels to deal good damage and can be buffed with splinter weapon etc. very easily. The build is effective, it (slightly) falls back to elementalist skills and it introduces a different playing style. Imo that's enough justification for this build page. Fire only star burst elementalists don't yet have a page though, which you may want to remedy if you prefer them. You can use this as a template if you wish. --Krschkr (talk) 01:59, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

I did mess up on the math there, it is only 15 more armor than the Ele. I don't know about the mechanics behind scattering, are you saying that Flame Burst, Inferno, and Star Burst all cause scattering, while dagger attacks don't? And I didn't mean that you should opt for Fire PBAoE spells, I was talking more like Searing Flames or other Fire spells that let you stay in the midline, since your armor is lower. Idk, I think that for "general PvE," "Save Yourselves!" is the one skill in the game that must be on every melee character if he or she has it unlocked. There is no other skill that can provide the same amount of protection to the entire team.

I really don't like these justification arguments for "general" builds in the first place... There must be hundreds of different areas in the game, and this will work better in some situations than the Sin dagger spammer will--i.e., modes (NM) or areas with foes with low levels or armor. I do think, however, that in general NM, bringing SY on a melee character might mean you need only a handful of heal skills in your entire team composition, which frees up slots for even more damage and speed than you could have with a frontliner without SY.

Duh, this is a "general" build and not everyone using it will be the only player in their team--there might be another frontliner who brings SY. Fine. But I think the lack of SY definitely reduces this build's universality (e.g., HM DoA heroway--you aint gettin thru that without SY, or you're getting thru it slow as hell).

By the way, if we're talking damage here, a Sin with 16 dagger will do about 100 AoE per Death Blossom, and he or she can cycle that every 2ish seconds with 2 offhand attacks. Why would you let Death Blossom sit on your bar, free to use, and use another skill for the same effect? Sins are already a one-stop shop for energy management.

In reference to Star Burst Elementalists... the only place I have ever seen them used effectively is in Deep against Onis at the Aspect of Scorpions gate and at the final Kanaxai boss for the 5 min SC record. In those situations, the foes are kiting and moving so much, that the party needs to ball up so the foes come to them, rather than the traditional method of tanking, bb, and spike. I guess a Star Burst Ele with Flame Djinn's Haste and whatnot, who jumps in after a frontliner first grabs aggro or balls foes, might be a very good option. Personally, I don't think I would want to quarterstep every time I wanted to cast Star Burst so that I could swap to 40/40 and back... that risks messing up any ball you might have made as a frontliner.--Saxazaxx (talk) 05:52, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Builds on PvX are not meant for normal mode, unless stated as such. Even then they'd have a hard time to justify themselves in comparison to the working HM builds we have, as these stomp normal mode very adequately. An exception would be to have teams directed towards beginners. But that we shouldn't make builds for normal mode doesn't mean that we have to jump to the other extreme by comparing things to DoA HM. That's just as silly, and you know this. There's a large variety of game content in between, which is somewhat comparable. A build which works well and quickly in Drazach Thicket is likely to do the same Dalada Uplands and Vehtendi Valley. DoA HM has different requirements, and a build which works well there isn't guaranteed to be competitive with other builds for normal PvE in terms of speed. So let's rather take a look at the vast majority of comparable content. There you don't need SY, although it's undoubtedly useful and powerful. If this build provides as much or more damage than a fire elementalist, which doesn't contribute more than damage himself, that's all justification you need for this if the justification of fire elementalists is just this: Dealing damage. Point blank star burst elementalists do pretty well so, btw, the tendency to cause scattering is annoying though. Not game-breaking, it's sufficient for WiK HM. --Krschkr (talk) 10:06, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

I realize I'm pretty late to this discussion, but I just want to offer up another perspective. I think it's pretty obvious that this isn't going to replace dagger spam sins (or rangers, and maybe other dagger spam professions). However, I still like to see contributions like this one float around PvX because it's nice to have a wide variety of builds to play with, and this site is one of the best resources I've come across for finding new ideas for different builds and playstyles. I main rit and play the standard SoS build 90% of the time, but sometimes I want to change it up -- finding that Explosive Growth MM build and Spirit's Strength Barrage build on here was great because they were drastically different styles from the norm. I mean, let's be real -- you can get away with pretty subpar builds in HM just by relying on the meta BiP hero team. I just hope there's room for these builds that are more on the "fun" side on this site. Thoughts? --Phlyingisphun (talk) 06:30, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

Fun in a game? How dare you speak of that! ...As PvX stands, builds are rated on effectiveness and universality. I think it's fine to have builds that are more "fun" to play, or at least change things up, and more than that, when you change, you grow. So playing the game differently could spark some really innovative idea that lets you SC underworld in 5 minutes... I don't know how builds that are fun, as opposed to be effective or fast, would fit on PvX exactly, though. One of the reasons I stopped running the dagger spammer sin is that I was just tired of spamming 1-2-3, my hands got tired, and I would actually start to feel pain in my hands after a while. I hope I don't sound too old by saying that, I remember the days where I would play for hours and hours and hours, slay bags of Doritos for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and not even break a sweat...--Saxazaxx (talk) 07:18, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

PvX should try to keep up a high standard for content in the build namespace: Build should be good in achieving ingame goals. Builds which can't compete with other builds (usually of the same profession) intended for that purpose should rather stay in the user space. I myself have some builds which I like and play a lot but which I keep as a user subpage because I think that they wouldn't be good/approachable enough for the majority of players. --Krschkr (talk) 16:13, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

Well said re: fun builds. I think that everything is debatable, so about this specific issue, you good make a good case for skills that are easier to use, but that may lower DPS. In the heat of battle, if the player is tunnel-visioning on his or her skill bar in an effort to maximize DPS, he or she might not notice that enemy skirt past into his or her party's backline and start dealing heavy damage to the Monks. A build that is easier to use might inherently encourage players to have better "field view," and overall better play.--Saxazaxx (talk) 21:46, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

Variants to star burst

I have recently used earth instead of fire magic to make use of the knockdown my hero setup provided. The damage range is slightly less impressive than that of star burst + intensity, but the close-range damage and additional conditions can make up for it. Energy isn't noticeably worse than with fire magic. I might test a gust + lightning touch build at some point because it sounds pretty useful and fun to play. And, in fact, water magic promises to be somewhat useful for the dagger elementalist aswell as mirror of ice reduces its own recharge time to 6 seconds – might be the only elementalist skill you need in that variant, as frozen burst wouldn't be affordable, seconds recharge time sounds reasonably low, stacking 66% snares doesn't create any bonus effect (or does it against hard mode foes?).
The point of adding alternative elites to the build page is to broaden it up for more purposes than pure damage. Shockwave adds defense, cracked armor and synergizes with knockdowns, gust provides knockdowns and cracked armor, mirror of ice snares foes. Each of these variants would suit different purposes and team setups differently well. And all of them, including star burst, require blood is power support anyway, so the slightly increased energy consumption doesn't really render the build ineffective.
Maybe some elementalist enthusiast would like to test these variants, else I'll try to do it in the next weeks. --Krschkr (talk) 18:03, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

All mentioned skills + double dragon seem to be ok and fill their own niche. Any opinions on extending the build like this (edit: released)? --Krschkr (talk) 20:45, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

I approve, that's an excellent writeup. EBSoH might be worth moving to the general variants section though, since it'll trigger on all your attacks anyway (and Shockwave/Gust/MoI all decently trigger it, even if not as well as DD). -Toraen (talk) 13:17, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Death's Charge is listed twice already, so I guess having honor twice too wouldn't hurt. Might be a bit redundant, but I'm confident that people won't be confused about it. --Krschkr (talk) 17:20, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

I was considering Ride the Lightning as a variant for the elite skill. It's a very low cooldown shadowstep that also blinds and does damage. It does have some exhaustion but I think it would add to the builds fun. Rickyf16aus (talk) 06:47, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

Is it just fun or very effective aswell? --Krschkr (talk) 11:19, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

I mean you can shadowstep all over the place with it and never have to run between enemies. It's very good for constantly blinding enemies in an AoE like Blinding Surge but melee range. It's effective and fun in my opinion. Rickyf16aus (talk) 23:58, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

Lotus Strike

So Ive been thinking of this for a while, but I've never felt like changing it. What's the reason for take Golden Lotus Strike (GLS) over Lotus Strike (LS)?

• LS provides a higher energy gain
  • Over 15 sec, LS provides 14 energy. GLS provides 8 energy...
• The bottleneck is Fox Fangs, and LS is also an off-hand attack, as compared to GLS which is a main-hand
  • J F DB, J LS DB is way smoother than J F DB, GLS F DB
• LS is unconditional, GLS requires an enchant (okay to be fair, you should be enchanted, but still)

LS is just straight up the superior skill. If nobody responds, I'll go ahead and make the change (it shouldve been like this from the start imo) ZStepmother (talk) 23:07, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

Golden Lotus Strike still works with low energy, whereas lotus strike requires 15 energy to work. --Krschkr (talk) 01:40, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

Lotus Strike requires only 10 energy. You have a quite high energy pool due to Energy Storage, so this isn't that big of a deal. You just have to use it before you are about to get low on energy, instead of when you already are. ZStepmother (talk) 09:56, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

With the requirement of a lead attack, which is another 5 energy to invest. Once you're low on energy golden lotus strike does a better job in helping to keep you functional for 5 more seconds. --Krschkr (talk) 13:49, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

Conjures

One thing I've noticed is the lack of any conjure spell (or justification on why it's not there) on any of the builds. Conjures add a ton of dps to daggers, close to being flatout better to bring than the actual dagger attack skills. I understand that you forego Zealous on your dagger for a conjure, but with BiP support (which heroes will always do since elementalist is a caster profession, so they cast it regardless of your equipped weapon) makes a Zealous dagger kind of obsolete in comparison to bringing a conjure (which, mind you, is armour-ignoring damage, acting like a second Strength of Honour). Anyone care to elaborate? If someone brings up a valid point that I'm not seeing, I'll adjust my build rating.

I think the main consideration was energy management. The BiP justifies conjure as an optional. Just add a note that BiP is required. Sonofthort (talk)

The build not having Conjure is not a valid reason to give it a bad rating like that. It's a perfectly fine build without conjure. Can Conjure improve the build? Maybe, but it should be tested. Im not sure how good the energy is with zealous, but I don't think conjure is that good of an option. 45 sec cooldown is simply way too long for it to be effective, it's too easy to get it stripped. ZStepmother (talk) 20:14, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Enchantments can be optionals, but require management. A/any lists the 30 second recharging Critical Agility as an optional. When using a long recharging enchantment, make sure heroes can cover, and that enchantment removal will not otherwise be a threat. It could be helpful to have a guide related to enchantment use. If a conjure enchantment is maintainable, its not a bad option. It has minimal cast time per second, so you spend more time attacking. Is there any advice related to testing builds/optionals, and providing results? Sonofthort (talk) 20:31, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Conjures don't require any additional energy management because you only have to cast them once per (longer than a) minute and usually before battle. Covering the enchant is done with literally ANY enchantment from heroes, so removal is not a problem either unless there is mass enchantment removal, at which point the whole build falls apart since BiP and Strength of Honour would be gone as well. Not running a conjure on this build is a MAJOR damage loss for no reason at all, since it adds at minimum 19 armour-ignoring damage PER HIT. You'd literally be better off auto-attacking with a conjure on than spamming dagger attacks in HM, since dagger base damage won't be viable without any form of crit. Strength and Honour + Conjure carries daggers for elementalist and it should be mainbarred. I've tested this out for good measure, and the dps difference is insane, nearly double. --Rainemard (talk) 06:22, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

If you're looking at meta hero teams, the only enchants (for melee) are SoH and Boon (and BiP). Boon is less likely to get stripped cause the ST is usually a bit in the back. That makes you the prime target for ench removal, since you have 2 enches. Conjure is always going to be the top one, so it's the first one to get stripped. The main selling point for dagger spam bars is being able to blow up enemy groups with Splinter & DB. DPS on the master of damage is not super relevant when testing out a build whose main focuse is AoE damage.

Again, I'm not saying that Conjure is bad, I still have to test it myself. Your rating of this build just seems to be... odd, considering your only argument is that it doesn't have conjure. Conjure alone isnt going to make a trash build (going by your rating) great... ZStepmother (talk) 09:18, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Also, I guess Conjure goes into the optional slot? Meaning the build loses out on either IAU or AScan? That doesn't sounds like a good idea at all. ZStepmother (talk) 09:21, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Enchantments aren't an issue as long as we have a guide which can be linked to next to optionals like conjure. We can talk about covers, specific areas, and any other concerns in the guide. If enchantment removal wasn't going to be a threat, and/or I was able to cover with a prot hero enchantment, I would most likely prefer conjure over some of the other main bar skills provided (intensity, lightning touch, and whirlwind, for example). We might be able to squeeze an extra optional slot out of some of these bars (including aftershock on the earth bar). Aside from the regular vetting process, what are some effective metrics which can be shared when presenting builds and skill options? Sonofthort (talk) 14:07, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Having enchantments with that long of a cooldown affects the universality of the build. Again, not saying that Conjure is a bad choice, but thats the only justification for that guys rating (an average of 2), which doesn't make sense at all. I'm not going to explain why, because ive already done it in my comments above.

In areas with little to no ench removal, it might be a viable optional skill, depending on how good the energy is. I agree that there are some questionable mainbar skills.

As for testing builds: it really depends on the build.

• You can do a few runs through multiple areas, and use toolbox to see check your damage share in the team. Look at the difference in damage share when you switch builds
• Check DPS on master of damage for a few minutes. Master of damage is a bad way to measure the effectiveness of builds, but it's a way to compare the differences in single target damage, in ideal situation (stationary target). Good example for this: Build_talk:R/A_Together_as_One_Daggers#Beast_mastery_attribute_spread
• For non damage skills, its more difficult to say. For this build, you can see how well it fares in areas with lots of melee hate (to check how bad it is when you dont have AScan & IAU).

Those are some of the things I do when I'm comparing builds. ZStepmother (talk) 14:57, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

In response to why I rated it that low, a ton of mainbar skills are way less useful than the damage a conjure would bring. I've played every variation besides the Gust one, so I won't judge on that specific variation, but all the others cleared MUCH faster with a conjure, since it also allows you to blow up specific targets. Everytime I've found an opponent (unballed) I need to get rid of quickly, I notice that without a conjure it just doesn't die fast enough and casting Lightning Touch (as an example) not only doesn't deal a lot of damage, but also reduces damage by not being both 1. a conjure and 2. a dagger auto, or dagger weaponskill. Besides all of this, if you're in an area with heavy enchantment removal, BiP will be removed as well and this build falls apart completely, because it has 0 energy management and HEAVILY relies on BiP. Also, Strength of Honour would get stripped too, which would bring your mainbar damage to pitiful levels, where jagged/fox deal about 20 and death blossom about 40. At this point, the build is flatout not worth bringing, unless I'm not seeing something you guys are seeing. If that is the case, please tell me what I'm missing here.

In short; conjures last long, take away minimal dps while casting, can be covered and the build relies very heavily on 2 other key enchantments to do any viable damage anyway, so why not add a third if you're going to cover BiP and SoH already anyway. Again, if I'm missing something, please tell me. I've tested it and so far I've noticed that in areas without enchantment removal I straight up had to run something else because I felt useless. The only exception I'll make is the Double Dragon variant, since it deals a ton of single-target with DD + Ebon Battle Standard of Honor. Though it still is energy-intensive, at least it brings the dps. Then again, if you do run that in an area with heavy enchantment removal, it will be useless as well since DD is an enchantment, so running a conjure on the optional slot STILL seems optimal. Also, I'll adjust my rating if someone either convinces me why conjures would be bad because I'm missing something or the build will list them as mandatory. I really want this build to succeed. --Rainemard (talk) 18:35, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

So you are giving a build a trash rating over a skill that is not listed as optional? I mean it does not take a very experienced player or mathematician to see obviously a conjure would increase DPS a bit but is not going to drastically change the dps of this bar, which as it is dagger spammer, does a lot on its own. So we can also take away from this you are not that good at dagger spam? I would be perfectly fine adding conjure weapon as an optional skill sure, I am kind of surprised it is not listed as optional. I mean with 30 variations on the page the elite is basically optional as is. But I do not think it is required one bit and the DPS is great as is. 60 extra single target damage is cool as an option, but not required when you are doing ~130 single target damage and 80 aoe damage every 3 seconds already. But you also are not even counting what would take its slot, which plenty of skills would already add close that anyways with way more utility or possibly MORE damage than that. I would love to see an actual detailed video of you playing and explaining how the build is "trash" without conjure weapon. Shadeinthebox (talk) 19:20, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

So besides the personal attack of me being bad at dagger spam (which is impossible, it's faceroll, so even if I were a bad player I couldn't possibly be bad at dagger spam in particular), what I'm getting as reason for not taking a conjure is... none? It sounds to me like you're agreeing with me on this. I've already said I'd adjust my rating if it were added, which is needed (in my opinion mainbar, in your opinion optional). I've already gave a lot of reasons why I rate this build as is and that there is no ill intent with it either, I just want the build to succeed and most people seem to agree conjures NEED to be added in a form, whether optional or mainbar. It not having this option (at the very least) makes this build very suboptimal to what it can be, as it IS a change in the build and as of now isn't associated with it. I'd like you to name an optional that's mainbar for every build that would outperform a conjure; mostly Lightning Touch, Death's Charge, Whirlwind. I understand EBSoH, as it is a massive DPS increase. Apart from those, I feel like Asuran Scan is a bad option overal, because the only reason I see in bringing it is in areas with a ton of melee hate... Which defeats the purpose of bringing this build entirely, since elementalist still has caster options. Why would you bring E/A in areas like the asuran shithole where you have to spam scan on every enemy (while already being low on energy even with BiP) while you can spike them down with for example a regular Air spam build? I just don't feel like most utility options bring a lot of utility you can't get elsewhere. I feel like for example Whirlwind is kinda nice, but it's a knockdown that costs you dps, is conditional and costs you a conjure in the same slot as well. Looking forward to hearing everyone's opinion on this, I mean that. I recognize I could be wrong because I'm missing something, but thusfar it seems like a conjure should be on nearly every bar. --Rainemard (talk) 09:08, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

We are trying to say that the reasoning for your rating is not valid, since the build works perfectly fine without Conjure. I'm actually surprised your rating isn't removed yet. It might be improved by adding Conjure, sure, but the build is not trash because Conjure isnt listed...

AScan is a perfectly fine optional skill. Perhaps people like playing this build, or they might be too lazy to swap a build just because there is some melee hate.

That being said, some of the listed builds have some questionable mainbar skills, and some of them are a lot worse than the Star burst one. ZStepmother (talk) 09:57, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Genuinely curious, have you tested this build? It does run out of energy, even with BiP. Asuran Scan is something you cannot afford to spam on top of daggerskills AND whatever elite variation you go with. I've just completed HM Hell's Precipe with the Mirror of Ice variant, because I love that skill and it does feel kind of viable there since mobs are kind of weak to ice on that mission. I've had conjure frost stripped twice in the entire mission without much micro, despite every ashen hulk having access to a double-enchantment removing Strip Enchantments. That said, the two times in the entire mission they DID strip off conjure, I've felt it. My single-target damage was nearly halved, which nearly killed me because of a partol of Rodgort's Invocation spamming imps. They die in 1 dagger combo with conjure up, and it takes two whole dagger combos to kill them otherwise. The build felt weak without the conjure up, which is why I gave the rating that I did. I've also given a ton of reasons why this build is lacking one crucial skill, which nobody seems to inherently disagree with, not with valid reasoning that is. I'm also pretty sure the rating system on this wiki is made for people to see which builds are bad, good and great. This build is NOT great-worthy without a conjure and my rating reflects that. I seriously do not understand what the problem is with adding it. Also, I highly suggest you test this build in a heavy melee hate area with Asuran Scan. I'm getting the feeling that you haven't tested that and I hope you'll see what I mean if you try. Mind if I ask which variations you've tested on which content? --Rainemard (talk) 16:12, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

"A vote must constitute an objective judgment of the build's qualities. It must not be biased by sympathy or any other prejudice regarding the author. This applies in particular to votes given by authors themselves or their friends. Votes that deliberately overshoot in favoring or unfavoring a build in order to 'compensate' another vote are not acceptable either." <-- This is you. Despite disagreeing with the great rating, the build is objectively not trash. LifeGuardian (talk) 20:19, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

I disagree, the build does minimal dps without a conjure and is not worth bringing over other options. Stop complaining about my rating and start optimizing the obviously underperforming build with one simple fix. You're focusing on the wrong thing. --Rainemard (talk) 09:02, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

"Does minimal damage without conjure" , it adds literally less than 1/4th or equal to at best, of the damage the chain does ALONE, not counting everything else. This is getting a little silly. What stepmother said I agree with perfectly, and I am very surprised how you are not seeing that as I feel it has been made clearly by multiple people now. Did you accidentally load the wrong bar when testing? Shadeinthebox (talk) 09:29, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

So Ive done some testing (without Conjure), and I can't say I agree with "the build does minimal dps without a conjure" at all. I was always either higher, or equal in damage with my mesmer heroes, even in areas that don't favor this build (although no testing in heavy melee hate yet). Example: Gate of Pain hardmode (since I had that as ZMission), the torments have QZ, Debilitating Shot, Water ele hexes and ench removal (cause I have Strength of Honor). The groups are very tiny, there is barely any opportunity to hit more than 2 foes with Star Burst / DB / Splinter. I still was the top damage in my party (using Archive:Team - 7 Hero BiP Melee Support). Since it seems like you are the only one suggesting that this build is shit without Conjure, I'd say the burden of proof is on you: perhaps you should provide videos/screenshots of you doing "minimal dps"? As long as you don't have any, I think it's fair to ask the admins to remove your vote, because you seem to be the only one with this "issue". ZStepmother (talk) 09:45, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

I've tested it in numerous HM missions thusfar, and you have provided as much proof as I have. If you want to put the burden of proof on me, you should also provide proof where we can see your DPS is adequate in harder areas in the game. I agree with Star Burst being very good, but that's because of Star Burst specifically, not because of the daggerspam without a conjure on an elementalist that is already taking high Fire Magic. What bar DID you run with star burst? What were your optionals if it was not a conjure? Also, please stop with the personal attacks of "are you dumb enough to load the wrong bar", it's childish and doesn't contribute to the conversation at all. I'm trying my best to make the build better than it is, and at this point it does NOT feel good enough to bring on its own, specifically the Gust, Mirror of Ice and Ride the Lightning version. The Star Burst version is obviously the star of the show here, but even that is MILES better with a conjure on the main bar. So please, tell me which optionals were running instead of a conjure and how you feel they added more than a conjure would, I'm genuinely interested. I also hope since I'm new to the PvX community, that people will take constructive criticism better than I've seen on this page. Just asking for deletion of a vote after in my opinion good reasoning with little to no counter-arguments thusfar seems like a very bad approach. Why even have a voting system in the first place if you're going to delete bad ones with reasoning and not even bringing any counter-arguments? I honestly hope you will try and give me a solid reason this time, since all you've said is "I did good damage with SoH and daggers". There is NO counter-argument to conjures at all in that. --Rainemard (talk) 14:26, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Okay let me try again: 5 voters founds this build >4 rating. I've asked the same question on the gw general discord, and I haven't seen anyone agree with the statement that the build is great as it is. You are the only person I've seen so far that claims that the build is trash without Conjure on the bar, without providing any proof for that (the proof for this build being great, being 5 votes). I'm asking for a vote removal, because you seem to be the only person for which this build doesn't perform, while not providing any proof.

About "I did good damage with SoH and daggers", I can say the exact same thing about your vote and arguments. All you do is claim that "the build does minimal dps without a conjure", which is a strange statement seeing that nobody agrees with you (this talk page + the other 5 votes).

That being said, you've failed to understand what I've been trying to say the entire time: this build is great, even without Conjure. But, I must also say that I accept that this build might be missing out on some extra damage by not having Conjure. Again, I'm not trying to say that this build is better off without Conjure, I'm merely saying that it's already great without it (everyone except you seems to agree with that).

I must say I agree with Star Burst variant being the best option. Double Dragon is nice if you have a legio (or playing with another player), but otherwise its meh. Gust, RtL and Mirror are not on the same level as Star burst, and I think this page can improve a lot by making the distinction between the best bar (Star Burst), and the "for fun" bars (Gust, RtL, Mirror). I'm not entirely sure how good Shockwave performs, but it's pretty strange that it has Aftershock on the mainbar. ZStepmother (talk) 16:48, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

I'm not taking other votes into account because that would make my vote subjective instead of objective. I want to vote according to what my thoughts are, not what others think about it. I've also tested it out in numerous areas of varying content, which validates my opinion in my book. If the voting system exists just to copy other people's votes, I won't take part in it anymore. p.s. I'm also fairly sure aftershock is on there for the select few that choose to run PI mesmer, I've seen a few people use it over one of the e-surge when bringing mesmer mercs. Even if you can't trigger the bonus damage, it's nearby-ranged so it's usually worth using when stuff isn't balled tightly. --Rainemard (talk) 17:53, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

(Reset indent)

Two things:

(1) Holding a build hostage with an overlay trash vote has been applied is not in the spirit of build vetting. For this reason I've removed the 2-2-O vote. @Rainemard - Please feel free to revise your reasoning appropriately and try voting again to reflect your reasoning.

(2) There is an optional slot in every build on the page, so obviously you're free to bring a Conjure if you really wanted to, however (A) you open yourself up to a new counter (enchantment removal) which you're highly likely to be the target of given you're on the frontline and most hero teams lack many other enchantments to cover it with. (B) Switching from zealous daggers to elemental daggers isn't going to be great for your energy usage, and will make you overly reliant on an energy management hero/skills. (C) You'll either have to give up one of your AoE skills (bringing one AoE skill only - the elite - is meh) or lose the utility of Asuran Scan/IAU (being melee without these really sucks).

-Chieftain Alex (talk) 17:21, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

(EC)This is getting a little too heated for a discussion on an optional skill. I originally did not include conjure when submitting this (and neither did Krschkr with his rewrite) because the lack of a zealous weapon leads to the build collapsing in longer-term fights even with the support of a BiP. The overall damage (including the AoE) was already viable in comparison with other melee builds, so this was deemed an acceptable loss. Conjure is fine though if you want increased single target for shorter fights, and there's nothing preventing you from swapping to zealous if the fight is dragging on and you need to help BiP refill your energy. Conjure does mean energy will be too tight to reliably use Ascan, which means it loses viability in areas with heavy anti-melee. If you don't care about AoE damage at all (spread out foes), I'd suggest [[taking WotEP]] and conjure (we should add an ele variant back to that build).

@Rainemard: I do think your vote is a bit harsh, but an opinion on the build that you are entitled to if you value the spike damage potential more than the long-term energy stability (potentially ending fights before energy can become an issue - with the caveat that this may not always work). Alex did remove your vote, but I think you could revote with expanded reasoning and with consideration of including Conjure as a variant skill on this page. Would conjure as a variant be acceptable grounds for improving your score? -Toraen (talk) 17:34, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

As I've said before, I will adjust my rating based on adding it as AT LEAST an optional. I won't give a 5/5 without a main-bar for it because of various reasons I've stated above, but I'll be content with 4/5 as an optional. I feel like it's such a big damage loss when spiking down key targets which I seem to value more than other people, I guess. The way I see it is if I'm balling mobs, I would use other builds over this. In my opinion, this build shines in its versatility of single-target damage, multiple target utility (whether that be star burst damage/energy gain, mirror of ice snares, RtL blinds, Shockwaving stuff or double dragon actually dealing a fuckton of damage if you have one other frontliner). A conjure helps a ton in that aspect as it bumps up the single-target damage a lot, especially considering you don't need to put any attribute points towards it since you're already at high elemental magic. I was doubting between 2/5 and 3/5 because of this, but after testing it out in numerous HM missions, I found that not running a conjure really crippled the build WHEN NOT BALLING. I agree with your point on drawn-out fights, but there is no reason you wouldn't be able to swap to a pair of zealous daggers when you need to, as you've said yourself. Apart from that, most fights didn't seem to be that drawn out when running a conjure, since it adds 20 ish damage to each and every dagger hit. So far most people have been spouting "lol you loaded wrong build" instead of having actual arguments towards NOT running a conjure, and I feel like you're actively trying to see my point. So thanks for taking it in consideration and I'll adjust my rating once it's added. --Rainemard (talk) 17:49, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Saw you added them, I'm glad someone's listened. If you haven't already, try it out with a conjure. I'm fairly certain not many people have tested it with a conjure on yet and I'm very curious if I'm really the only one who feels this way. I also really like the text you've added next to the conjures, it gives the player a clearer choice on when to bring one. Another thing I would like to say about them, though it's pretty niche, is elemental weaknesses do exist in some areas, which CAN drastically improve DPS. I've noticed this in Hell's Precipice HM, it made Mirror of Ice the clear winner for that area. Again, thanks for listening and improving the versatility of the build. I'll try out some other elites as well, to see if there are any surprising contenders that one could use besides these 6. --Rainemard (talk) 18:04, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

There's no general dismissal of the conjure skills for this build. Most people seem to agree that they can be added as a build variant. It looks like the main thing people protested against are your trash vote that is in conflict with common sense and your position that a conjure nearly doubles these builds' damage output. Most people were joining you in a discussion whether it makes sense to implement the skill on the build page. As you complain about a lack of arguments towards playing without a conjure here are the three main points we've seen. And if I may add this note in defense of the other contributors in this discussion, these points have been raised by User:ZStepmother, User:Chieftainalex and User:Toraen in uniformity with User:Sonofthort pointing some of them out aswell.

• Doubts about the stability of the already problematic energy maintenance of this build if playing without zealous daggers.
• Enchantment removal coupled with a long recharge time making conjures a bad pick in areas with enchantment removal.
• No IAU/Scan if using the conjure in the current variable skill slot of each build.

When I did the rewrite for this page the first point (lack of zealous daggers) was my main reason to forego conjure skills on this page. The enchantment removal thing is why the conjure shouldn't be in the main bars, but could still be viable in the optionals. With the conjure mainbarred the universality of the main build suffers too much. Strength of honour can be reapplied every few seconds, blood is power has no recharge time at all. The third point – asuran scan is not as important as for primary physical professions because a) the hard mode AI will use a bunch of standard anti-physical skills only on physical professions and b) in all (but one) of the build variants the elementalist skills allow to deal some area damage even if your attacks are completely shut down. The lack of bringing this skill to easily crush through a large array of possible counters to this build is nonetheless troublesome. I'll add three more reasons to why I didn't include the conjures even in the optionals:

• Requires different equipment than all other builds. Would therefore require additional notes in the equipment section, making the build page more messy and thus less approachable. Before the conjure additon we'd found a solution that was surprisingly approachable for a page with five different main build variants. Right now we have different equipment for different build variants and that information is spread out to multiple places on the page, which is not optimal.
• They add 1.75 seconds setup time before each fight. That's something I personally despise and try to avoid if possible. For example that's one of my main reasons to critizise Build:N/D Soul Taker Scythe despite it already reduces the activation time of its enchantments to 0. It's also why I rather dislike the attunement system on elementalists. It's a waste of time other professions/builds can use to get things done already. The definitely conjureless shockwave variant of this build runs into foes, shockwaves them and uses daggers to clear out surviving foes. That's convenient.
• Even without a conjure your single target damage with a dagger build is fine. What the build benefits from is additional (large-range) area damage, which is why I went for intensity on the star burst variant and aftershock in the shockwave build (I know, a conjure wouldn't have been an option for this one anyway). Double dragon requires the ebon standard to be worthwhile, as we all know, so that one is self-explanatory. In case of the gust and mirror of ice builds I went for skills that introduce more utility, given the elite skills are already primarily centered around utility instead of pure damage, but those are the two variants in which I'd see the best use for a conjure. No comment on ride the lightning, I haven't tested that variant but it doesn't look good to me at all.

I'll now stop the rambling about builds to add a few notes regarding this discussion. First of all, Shade's general allegations are habitually failing to assume good faith and drift into personal attacks. I ask you to stop acting this negativisticly as no one benefits from it. Secondly, I agree with Chieftainalex's removal of your vote (and would do the same with the 0/0 vote on the soldier's stance build if it had a chance to survive the vetting process otherwise) for the reasons he and User:LifeGuardian have introduced. Trash-voting a mostly fine build is not acceptable, neither is it in the spirit of Real-Vetting to hold a build ransom with a trash vote you'll only lift if a page is changed. Please reconsider the way you're using the vetting system so it is more compatible with the policies. Notwithstanding these points of criticism you're invited to keep voting on builds (if possible in a manner that's more in lign with the policies) and start discussions about build changes as you did here. That's what this community project lives from, after all, but it can only work if we assume good faith don't brush over our discussion partners' points without really taking them into consideration, which is a thing that seemed to happen in the conjure discussion.

I'd like to conclude this post with a more lighthearted finale, so take a look at this:

Star BurstFactionsElementalist. Fire Magic 16Star BurstElite SpellTarget touched foe and all foes in the area are struck for 119 fire damage and set on fire for 4 seconds. For each foe you hit, gain 2 energy.5¾7	IntensityNightfallElementalist. Sunspear rank 6IntensitySkillFor 10 seconds, the next time you deal elemental damage with a spell to a target, you deal 70% of that damage to all other foes in the area. PvE only.510	Conjure FlameCoreElementalist. Fire Magic 16Conjure FlameEnchantment SpellFor 60 seconds, if you're wielding a fire weapon, your attacks strike for an additional 21 fire damage.10145	Ebon Battle Standard of HonorEotNNo Profession. Ebon Vanguard rank 6Ebon Battle Standard of HonorWard SpellYou plant an Ebon Battle Standard of Honor at your current location. For 20 seconds, non-Spirit allies in this area strike for +15 damage and an additional +10 vs. Charr. PvE only.10120	DismemberCoreWarrior. Axe Mastery 3DismemberAxe AttackIf it hits, this axe blow will inflict a Deep Wound on the target foe, lowering that foe's maximum Health by 20% for 8 seconds.5	Keen ChopEotNWarrior. Axe Mastery 3Keen ChopAxe AttackIf it hits, this attack always results in a critical hit.3	Drunken MasterEotNNo Profession. Deldrimor rank 6Drunken MasterStanceFor 90 seconds, your movement and attack speeds are increased by 15%. If you are drunk while activating this Skill, your movement and attack speeds are increased by 33% instead. PvE only.560	MeteorCoreElementalist. Fire Magic 16MeteorSpellTarget foe and all adjacent foes are struck for 119 fire damage and knocked down.105230

Using the new PvE-only axe this might be a workable concept for using the conjure with less blood is power dependency paid with a loss in maximum effectivity. Might be worth looking into. --Krschkr (talk) 00:20, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Oh man, don't get me started on the new ele axe. I've been trying to wrap my head around something useful with that thing for weeks and it STILL feels bad to play. Is there a place (like discord) where people theorize about it? I'm hitting a wall on it despite trying my hardest to at least find a good niche with it and would like to talk to others about it. --Rainemard (talk) 10:27, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

This one maybe? https://discord.gg/gw Sonofthort (talk) 12:16, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Individual Build Viability

Now that this issue is out of the way, I want to hear your opinion on an issue Rainemard also brought up: the listed builds arent exactly equal in terms of performance. More specific, the star burst version is much better than the others. Maybe its a good idea to list Star burst as the "Main" build, and the others as a variant, so there is a clear distinction between the power levels of these builds? ZStepmother (talk) 13:23, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

I agree, maybe add a line in each variant on when to bring it? Just spitballing here, in general Star Burst seems to be the winner, but I've had success with the Mirror of Ice, Double Dragon and Shockwave one as well. The air ones might be good in areas with a ton of melee pressure against you, but I don't see myself bringing it in general PvE unless I wanted to have fun with RtL for some reason. I guess it's either that or internal ratings per variant, though it could just as well be better to leave it up to the player. --Rainemard (talk) 19:56, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

The primary benefits of the Air variants are increased mobility and anti-melee knockdown (the blind is shared with the Shockwave variant). They probably are the least of these builds. If their individual ratings would be different, a page split might (one for each attribute?) better indicate which ones are best (this may mean that some don't survive, but that would probably be better than PvX recommending a build variant that no one person would actually recommend). -Toraen (talk) 12:35, 2 June 2020 (UTC)