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Signet of Return?

Over Death Pact Signet.--- IGN: Saxazax I (capital i) or Saxazax I I - (talk) 21:52, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Death Pact Signet resurrects at (likely) full health and 32% energy with a casting time of ~1.7 seconds. Signet of Return resurrects with up to 35% health (assuming only the target party member is dead, else -5pp for every other dead party member) and up to 7% energy (-1pp for every other dead) with a casting time of ~2.8 seconds. Signet of Return is definitely inferior without symbolic celerity. Not taking symbolic celerity, though, is the core idea and main justification of the domination signet hero. Therefore: No, don't take signet of return over death pact signet. If you're afraid that death pact signet will kill this mesmer, pick a non-signet resurrection skill of your choice. I suggest vengeance. You'll gain 3 less base armor rating, though. --Krschkr (talk) 00:53, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
Just add Flesh of My Flesh, Death Pact Signet, Vengeance, etc. as optionals.--- IGN: Saxazax I (capital i) or Saxazax I I - (talk) 04:30, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
I'd personally keep death pact signet only. It fits best into the build due to keystone signet and the equipment, it's a good resurrection skill and (at least on my side) deaths are rare, resurrection just a backup and not something happening in general. If you think more resurrection options are needed, go ahead and add them. :) --Krschkr (talk) 12:50, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
I checked the math on what you said for the 2nd reply. At 2 Restoration Magic, Death Pact Signet will resurrect someone at the Keystone Mesmer's current HP and 26% energy, and the casting time is 1.44 seconds at 16 Fast Casting. Signet of Return resurrects with up to 35% HP and 7% energy, with a cast time of 2.4 seconds at 16 Fast Cast. I think we must leave them as optional, because if someone is bringing this build in Normal Mode, then Death Pact Signet would be better, since there is a lower chance that the resurrected party member will die and kill the Keystone Mesmer. But in HM I would take Signet of Return or even Restore Life...-- Saxazaxx - IGN: Saxazax I (capital i) or Saxazax I I - (talk) 00:29, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Energy Galore

Watrel's Demise would be great on this bar since you don't use energy for signets.-- Saxazaxx - IGN: Saxazax I (capital i) or Saxazax I I - (talk) 00:19, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Remove Ignorange "Counter"

It's so rare in the game you need not list it.-- Saxazaxx (talk) 14:55, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Do you think so? It's used in the whole desolation and in the underworld aswell as When Kappa Attack and probably some more places. I'd say that's wide-spread enough for mentioning it. --Krschkr (talk) 15:00, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
Ok.-- Saxazaxx (talk) 15:03, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Fast Casting Spec Wasted

With such a high spec in Fast Casting and so many of your skills already at 1/4sec activation time, you are not utilizing the spec's full potential. Fast Casting's effects include: 1, Reduce activation time of skills, and 2, Reduce recharge time of spells. Lower FC to get 5 casts out of Keystone and put in an Inspiration Signet stance. And take out Mistrust--it does not synergize with your elite's effect, and if you are bringing Artificer's insignias, bringing that is a wasted slot. You can bring a non-signet skill on that bar as long as it somehow improves the rest of the signets' effectiveness.-- Saxazaxx (talk) 15:02, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Mistrust is an extremely powerful AoE damage skill; this build uses the available energy quite well with fast casting's reduced skill recharge time by allowing the hero to use two of the most powerful domination magic energy skills very frequently. Both signet related inspiration magic stances aren't good. The reduced recharge time doesn't change much as keystone signet already recharges the signets and the hero may not use the keystone charges completely every time anyway. The defensive stance is unneeded if you have a backline, which you should have. This hero already is sort of a hard target in comparison to most other caster heroes. Replacing the great mistrust with at best mediocre stances even forces you to invest in a third attribute line and thus either lose even more build effectivity. Unless you bring symbolic celerity, which wastes yet another skill slot, is not needed in the current build version, is used badly by the AI and only adds more counters to this build. Your suggestion doesn't sound good to me. --Krschkr (talk) 15:14, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
"The defensive stance is unneeded if you have a backline, which you should have." In terms of just being efficient with skills, bringing 1 skill to not only increase armor but also provide passive healing is a massive help to the backline.
". . . invest in a third attribute line and thus either lose even more build effectivity." Like I said before, you are only getting 1 more signet cast out of Fast Casting being at that high of an attribute, and you are not benefiting from spells and signets' reduced cast time because so many of your skills are 1/4sec cast. By reducing Fast Casting to 11+1, which grants you 5 signets' interrupt+damage effect, and putting 6 or 6+1 into inspiration, you get +18 armor and some passive healing, which greatly reduces Monks' need to heal. Moreover, heroes do not use skills that efficiently. Sometimes, they use every skill on their bar, and sometimes, half the skills sit there not being used. So having a 6th interrupt+damage effect, at the expense of a lot more armor and healing, would only be worth it half the time.
"[T]he great mistrust" Everything has advantages and disadvantages. The issue here is whether it's better to bring an offensive skill (Mistrust) or a defensive skill (Mantra of Signets). It comes down to play style and the overall team composition.-- Saxazaxx (talk) 11:42, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
"Unless you bring symbolic celerity, which wastes yet another skill slot" In general, I think it is better to waste fewer slots on things like energy management so you can have a constant energy pool and instead bring that many more skills for more utility. You say that having a stance adds more counters, well, so does having a spell. But Mantra of Signets is just awesome for this build and gives the backline a break.-- Saxazaxx (talk) 18:53, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Saxazaxx, it's best not to get tunnel-vision and focus entirely on one part of a build and say that all parts must tie into it somehow. Sometimes certain skills are just too good to not take and the build would have less total output if it replaced them with skills that "synergize better". Maxing out the effects of artificer's insignia or using more of the effects of fast casting are secondary concerns to increasing the damage output. Synergy is a tool you can use to make your build more effective at something, not the end goal. Keep in mind that if you max out on signets to not waste FC/insignia effects, you are instead wasting all the energy the build has by not using it on anything. -Toraen (talk) 01:51, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

You bring up a good point that it depends what your goal is. Normal Mode mission running, Mistrust has more damage than another signet, and might be used by heroes better as well. But in DoA or WoC, an AoE interrupt from a signet--which is countered more rarely than a spell--is going to be better, and you need the armor and healing too. Good point about energy. I think I mentioned this on another Keystone build, with all that extra energy, bring Wastrel's Worry over Mistrust.--18:53, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
Look, there are 1,300 skills in the game. All have advantages and disadvantages. It's no secret--this build lacks in damage. But that's not what it's designed for--it is primarily for AoE rupts. Why would Mistrust be better than, say, Complicate or Cry of Frustration on this bar? All of them have great effects, and all are useful in different situations. Maybe it's just good practice to have 1 optional slot in any bar so people can change things depending on what area they're doing. But we might be doing too much flapping of our gums over this. I think we are wasting time, honestly, by perfectionizing "general" builds. Maybe it's just me. We should make builds that are tailored to different areas and mobs, that's a much cooler project in my opinion.-- Saxazaxx (talk) 18:53, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Utility

I'm all about utility. Here is my alternative build suggestion for "general use:"

Keystone Signet Unnatural Signet Signet of Disruption Signet of Distraction Signet of Weariness Leech Signet Mantra of Signets optional
  • Optional:
    • Wastrel's Worry
    • Resurrection skill
  • Attributes:
    • Inspiration at 8+x
    • Dom at 12+x
    • Fast Casting at 10+1+1 (5 casts of Keystone)

The main bar has Signet of Clumsiness because it has lots of damage and recharge. But Anet spent a lot of time and energy balancing this game so that no skill is more powerful than any other. Leech signet will be useful and push this bar through those obstacles that you might not be able to get through with Signet of Clumsiness, because it interrupts an action. That's extremely useful--utility. Sure, it lacks in damage compared to Signet of Clumsiness, but it's worth it in a build which should not be focused on damage, even though Domination Magic has many damage skills available. Again, if you really want another great damage skill, put that in another bar whose elite does not affect every other skill, and on a hero whose armor's insignias will not be less effective if you bring that skill.

The more I think about it, what Toraen said about having an energy pool sitting there and doing nothing if your whole bar is full of signets... That's less important than having an additional 3 armor and more healing from using signets with Mantra of Inscriptions. I think the only thing that will solve this question is people testing and recording in hard areas.-- Saxazaxx (talk) 19:07, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

WELL?

This is just an updated version of the PVE General one that's already in Good. That bar has no pve skills and could easily have a hero tag thrown on. Why does this exist? LifeGuardian (talk) 03:26, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

The keystone build with votes won't work well with the hero AI. This one doesn't rely on proper usage of wastrel's demise and symbolic posture, it also doesn't need symbolic celerity which frees up a skill slot for better skills and makes the build immune to being weakened by enchantment removal. --Krschkr (talk) 10:42, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Suggestions for improvement

First, see my issues over at Build_talk:Me/N_Keystone_Minion_Bomber_Hero#Combine_pages. It provides a little bit of background for some of these suggestions.

Signet of Clumsiness is good enough to be mainbar here with next to nothing in Illusion Magic, and Signet of Distraction is mainbar even though Keystone Signet already interrupts and allows multiple interrupts (so really you don't need the disable effect that much). Signet of Sorrows is good enough to be mainbar on the above linked build despite AI issues, so combining the logic of not needing attribute points or damage, Signet of Sorrows is a viable optional skill for this build even without Symbolic Celerity or Soul Reaping. On that note, Castigation Signet from Smiting Prayers can also be used as a better Leech Signet. In other words, this build needs to do a better job at looking for optional signets, especially in secondary professions that can provide useful energy-based skills to pump damage alongside Cry/Mistrust.

Mistrust is good, but Cry of Frustration is slightly better suited for this bar's focus and should be mainbar instead or together with Mistrust. Main focus is shutdown with damage, if you want it the other way around you go for the regular domination build with Energy Surge.

Unnatural Signet and Signet of Disruption both need a note on their increased effectiveness with hexes. On that note, it's worth looking into optionals that are hexes that can synergize with this build, especially with the overflow of energy it has. Empathy is okay but doesn't synergize amazingly with mid-attack interrupts (as opposed to

The resurrection skill optionals seriously need to be (re-)moved. If your playstyle uses Vengeance or Signet of Return then you will use those no matter what, but they should not be listed here (Signet of Return casts in 2.6 seconds so it's pretty much the same as Resurrection Chant at 2.88 which gives more health and comparable energy, or really Death Pact Signet on a non-Mesmer). Resurrection Chant is viable because we have 16 Fast Casting and it ignores both the downside of Death Pact Signet (risk of death) and Flesh of My Flesh (no energy gain) at the cost of a little range (meanwhile touch-range like Renew Life is in the same category as Vengeance).

While I find it useful to compare this build to the regular Domination Hero build, and in particular the Energy Surge variant, the note on the page contains information that is of no use to the build space and honestly should have most of its information in the opening paragraph of the page instead. It's also one big comparison split unevenly into two notes. "Low-range AoE" should be reworded for clarity. Shutdown should be emphasized. Cheaper equipment is not something that should be listed, but cheaper skills should. Better armor level (when there is no Mantra of Signets) is only because of the Insignias, and should either be double-checked (and clarified if still valid) or removed. And if this build is so much better with Frustration, a link to such a build would be noteworthy under See Also. Sacropedia (talk) 02:06, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Keep in mind that keystone signet does not interrupt the target itself, so using interruption signets makes a lot of sense. In particular when it causes all foes to use skills simultaneously so they're prone to receiving more keystone area interruption hitting skills. Signet of sorrow is out of the question for this build here as there's no symbolic celerity. Having enough domination magic signets to play a keystone hero without symbolic celerity while also not losing out on signet performance is very much half of the point of this build. Castigation signet would force the hero to bring symbolic celerity, wasting a skill slot and energy when the fight begins without adding actually reliable energy management. Next to having useful signets without symbolic celerity the second good thing about this build is that it can bring two (with BiP three) of the strongest domination magic spells at very high fast casting to deal damage and provide shutdown frequently. The build can't be reduced to being just defense.
Resurrection: There was a disagreement before (see above), if you find your opinion to tip the balance in direction of a specific set of resurrection skills you can simply change that part of the page content.
The note about hexes can be added, but I don't think that any lasting hex but empathy is worth bringing in this bar. No build exists without context, and most teams provide hexes this hero can benefit from. Adding a note here would also require you to add it to the non-signet domination magic hero as it's often played with energy surge and then not providing its own hexes. Not certain that's that good an idea.
You can simply go ahead and rework the opening paragraph and note section. --Krschkr (talk) 02:06, 2 November 2019 (UTC)
Ah that's a good point on Keystone Signet's interruptions. I missed that.
I actually agree that Signet of Sorrows and Castigation Signet has no space here, but I also think they don't belong on the other build, so who am I to say. If Keystone Signet DID interrupt the target though, then they would be equal in value to Signet of Distraction. But yeah, that's not the case so nevermind. Signet of Clumsiness is actually great simply because of the knockdown, even with low Illusion Magic.
I went ahead and changed variables and especially the resurrection options (I left in Signet of Return as a compromise because it's a signet, and I misread the energy gain from Resurrection Chant).
I mainbarred Cry because I firmly believe it fits this build better - yes Mistrust is better damage and we can't be shutdown-only, but Cry deals damage and also fills a niche of larger AoE interruption.
Instead of adding a note about two signets synergizing with hexes, I added a note on Empathy acting as an enabler. I feel this might still have room for improvement though, if anyone has ideas. Sacropedia (talk) 01:22, 3 November 2019 (UTC)
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